Thornton to Transfer

[BluePanda]

https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/719224953363656707

No need to beat around the bush anymore. Well wishes to him at his next school - hope for great success for him as he has great potential.

[sagegrouse]

https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/719224953363656707

No need to beat around the bush anymore. Well wishes to him at his next school - hope for great success for him as he has great potential.

Not official, but a media source.

[Dukehky]

Not official, but a media source.

We really gonna do this?

With the rumors before today, and ESPN and SCOUT putting it on twitter, he's gone.

Would be willing to bet a Bolden commitment is imminent.

Still not super fired up about losing DT. I loved that kid, his absolute floor was Sean Dockery. I don't know what happened. His dad wanted him to red-shirt, he got plenty of time, knew he was going to be a 4 year kid. Re-classified to come to Duke, missed McD's, Jordan Brand stuff this year, was excited about playing with Giles and Tatum, or they were good friends.

This makes the least amount of sense from any transfer I've seen from Duke. I know his minutes would probably go down, but he's the only true PG and his efficiency could have sky rocketed if he had made any decision improvements.

He didn't get recruited over here either, Frank was a Grayson replacement. The only PG on the horizon is Tre Jones... This just doesn't make tons of sense, and I'm bummed.

There is no way Derryck was forced out here, to any media member who may be reading. If we were going to make someone leave, it would have been Obi, Vrank, or White, not someone who averaged 26 minutes and is the only pg on the roster. Idiots.

I hope Bolden commits and I hope he's awesome.

[subzero02]

Unfortuante. He is going to be very good in the near future. Jackson sticking around for at least 2 years just became more important.

[freshmanjs]

We really gonna do this?

With the rumors before today, and ESPN and SCOUT putting it on twitter, he's gone.

Would be willing to bet a Bolden commitment is imminent.

Still not super fired up about losing DT. I loved that kid, his absolute floor was Sean Dockery. I don't know what happened. His dad wanted him to red-shirt, he got plenty of time, knew he was going to be a 4 year kid. Re-classified to come to Duke, missed McD's, Jordan Brand stuff this year, was excited about playing with Giles and Tatum, or they were good friends.

This makes the least amount of sense from any transfer I've seen from Duke. I know his minutes would probably go down, but he's the only true PG and his efficiency could have sky rocketed if he had made any decision improvements.

He didn't get recruited over here either, Frank was a Grayson replacement. The only PG on the horizon is Tre Jones... This just doesn't make tons of sense, and I'm bummed.

There is no way Derryck was forced out here, to any media member who may be reading. If we were going to make someone leave, it would have been Obi, Vrank, or White, not someone who averaged 26 minutes and is the only pg on the roster. Idiots.

I hope Bolden commits and I hope he's awesome.

What is a true point guard?

He would have been the #5 guard on the depth chart next season.

[fuse]

Count me among the bummed as well.

Wishing this made any sense to me, so instead I'll wish all the best to Derryck.

[HK Dukie]

Really sad to see Derryck go. I'm very thankful that he spent a year at Duke and came early to help out.

I wish he could have seen that his best opportunity to shine was at Duke. I know next year PT will be tight, but why not take a shot at a title, compete with the best and maybe even start this year (possible) and have a great chance of your junior and senior years being a real leader on the team? I'm sure there were a lot of factors involved. Great kid, wish he stayed. I don't say that about everyone who leaves.

Best of luck to him!

[Dukehky]

What is a true point guard?

He would have been the #5 guard on the depth chart next season.

Oh my god, we all know what a true point guard is, just because K doesn't like to give people positions doesn't mean there aren't any or that you are any smarter for not acknowledging that there are true point guards. In this scenario I mean that Derryck has never played shooting guard, and has played his entire career at the 1; Grayson and Frank rarely play the 1 and almost always play the 2. That is what I mean.

Derryck would have been the best on ball defender on next year's team, there was room for that in the line-up had he stayed. Not worth arguing about since he's gone, but if you want to keep arguing that there are no position distinctions then let's roll.

[freshmanjs]

Oh my god, we all know what a true point guard is, just because K doesn't like to give people positions doesn't mean there aren't any or that you are any smarter for not acknowledging that there are true point guards. In this scenario I mean that Derryck has never played shooting guard, and has played his entire career at the 1; Grayson and Frank rarely play the 1 and almost always play the 2. That is what I mean.

Derryck would have been the best on ball defender on next year's team, there was room for that in the line-up had he stayed. Not worth arguing about since he's gone, but if you want to keep arguing that there are no position distinctions then let's roll.

I actually HATE all of the no-position nonsense that is spouted on this board and never argued that there are no position distinctions. How in the world are you getting that from my post? I also disagree with the notion of a "true" point guard. There is a whole spectrum of skillsets seen in effective point guards. Was Jon Scheyer a "false" point guard? Was Quinn Cook a "true" shooting guard last year?

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks for your efforts with us Derryck, you're always part of the family. Enjoyed watching you play.

Best of luck!

[scottdude8]

I'll be very interested to see the news that comes out about this development, and hopefully some in the know on the board can help us out there. Count me (and a large majority of my Duke fan friends from the class of '12) amongst those who are very perplexed by this situation. Derryck showed great potential this year, especially considering he rightfully should've still been a high school senior. I foresaw him being a solid floor general and a true defensive stopper as he developed. Plus, he seemed like a kid who fit the Duke culture and wanted to be a Blue Devil, especially considering all he sacrificed coming to school early.

I never like it when a player transfers, especially as of late because it creates a (hopefully) false narrative about the state of the program as far as recruiting and loyalty. I really hope we aren't getting into the business of "recruiting over" players or "needing scholarships" like some less reputable programs have done in the past. I sincerely hope this is a transfer that both Derryck and Duke are OK with and there are no bad feelings. I assume a lot of this will be settled when various statements and interviews come out.

Regardless, Derryck is responsible for the block that gave us our legendary victory over UNC this year, and will never be forgotten in the annals of Duke history for that. Good luck Derryck!

[Troublemaker]

Derryck was a high-ceiling player that showed flashes of his great potential last season, including great quickness, handle (despite occasional unforced errors), and defense. At the same time, he was a project with regard to decision-making, shooting, and vision.

It would've been really fun to watch him smooth out his rough edges and develop over the course of 3 or 4 years to reach his high ceiling.

It's a shame that it seems like this isn't going to happen. Good luck to Derryck wherever he lands. I will always appreciate him doing what was necessary to graduate high school over the summer and come to Duke. Despite the rough edges, Duke would've been worse off without Derryck last season, and his presence helped secure an NCAA tournament bid.

Now it's very important to target a point guard in the 2017 high school class and/or take a PG transfer this offseason.

[Dukehky]

I actually HATE all of the no-position nonsense that is spouted on this board and never argued that there are no position distinctions. How in the world are you getting that from my post? I also disagree with the notion of a "true" point guard. There is a whole spectrum of skillsets seen in effective point guards. Was Jon Scheyer a "false" point guard? Was Quinn Cook a "true" shooting guard last year?

So had I deleted "true" before "point guard" we could have avoided all of this nonsense? My point was that it seemed as if you wanted to get bogged down in semantics, which is clear from this post.

If you don't believe that true point guards exist, then moving forward, to make your digestion of this basketball board easier, I will refrain from using the term "true point guard" since it clearly is irritating to your constitution.

[GGLC]

This is a real shame. It makes me sad. Not least because

1) barring some kind of incoming transfer at some point, we will not have a non-freshman point guard on the roster for the foreseeable future...which just feels wrong to me

2) given the reports that Coach K chose to ask Thornton to reclassify rather than bring in Jamal Murray, I do wonder how this year would have turned out had we gone with Murray rather than Thornton. An unanswerable what-if.

I feel bad about this transfer. I don't understand it.

[freshmanjs]

So had I deleted "true" before "point guard" we could have avoided all of this nonsense? My point was that it seemed as if you wanted to get bogged down in semantics, which is clear from this post.

If you don't believe that true point guards exist, then moving forward, to make your digestion of this basketball board easier, I will refrain from using the term "true point guard" since it clearly is irritating to your constitution.

No, I think we have a few players on the roster who can play PG effectively. You seem to think not? Or, otherwise, what is the point of lamenting lack of a true PG?

[Dukehky]

I'll be very interested to see the news that comes out about this development, and hopefully some in the know on the board can help us out there. Count me (and a large majority of my Duke fan friends from the class of '12) amongst those who are very perplexed by this situation. Derryck showed great potential this year, especially considering he rightfully should've still been a high school senior. I foresaw him being a solid floor general and a true defensive stopper as he developed. Plus, he seemed like a kid who fit the Duke culture and wanted to be a Blue Devil, especially considering all he sacrificed coming to school early.

I never like it when a player transfers, especially as of late because it creates a (hopefully) false narrative about the state of the program as far as recruiting and loyalty. I really hope we aren't getting into the business of "recruiting over" players or "needing scholarships" like some less reputable programs have done in the past. I sincerely hope this is a transfer that both Derryck and Duke are OK with and there are no bad feelings. I assume a lot of this will be settled when various statements and interviews come out.

Regardless, Derryck is responsible for the block that gave us our legendary victory over UNC this year, and will never be forgotten in the annals of Duke history for that. Good luck Derryck!


The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

[wavedukefan70s]

Officially bummed .i had heard this earlier from family who live close to campus.
I liked that kid tons of potential.

[gurufrisbee]

His performance this year was certainly very up and down, but for a kid who should have been a high school senior, that is more than reasonable. I know he was close to Ingram - I wonder if he had connected with someone else there if he might have felt different. But it's certainly understandable to see a kid that young go to the other side of the country and wish they had stayed closer to home. And it all certainly sounds legitimate - he had a solid shot to be the starting PG on the best team in the nation next year if he stays. The four man race is down to three.

[OldPhiKap]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Ricky Price. Jay Bilas.

[freshmanjs]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Short memory. Erik Meek, Cherokee Parks, Jay Bilas...

[scottdude8]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

So you think this might be a "go to school closer to home" type of situation? In all honesty I think that would be the best of all possible outcomes to this drama, as it's completely understandable and justifiable from Derryck's point of view regardless of any arguments we might make about PT, development, etc.; and from Duke's point of view that means the program didn't do anything disingenuous. It would certainly make sense, and I hope that's the explanation.

[vick]

So had I deleted "true" before "point guard" we could have avoided all of this nonsense? My point was that it seemed as if you wanted to get bogged down in semantics, which is clear from this post.

If you don't believe that true point guards exist, then moving forward, to make your digestion of this basketball board easier, I will refrain from using the term "true point guard" since it clearly is irritating to your constitution.

I mean, what does it mean, really? Probably something to do with setting up other players, but Thornton's assist rate was actually way more similar to Cook as a senior than to players who are usually credited with being "pure" point guards. In fact, it was lower than any number of non-point guards we've had in the last decade (McRoberts '07, Nelson '08, Henderson '09, Smith '10, even Allen last year). So I've never really been clear on the concept either.

[Dukehky]

No, I think we have a few players on the roster who can play PG effectively. You seem to think not? Or, otherwise, what is the point of lamenting lack of a true PG?

I don't know what Frank is capable of as a point guard at the college level. Grayson nor Matt have the strongest handle in the world, but that may not matter with the versatility on the rest of the line-up. I actually think entering the season, Luke is our best ball handler and has the potential to be our most creative distributor (I know G led the team in assists last year, but but I don't think anyone would deem G to be a "great passer," good, but not great).

With this roster, I'm not sure having a great PG is going to matter. I'm a little more bummed for 2016-2017, but if we get another Natty, or a really good shot at one, so be it.

My biggest PG thing is the ability to break a press with a dribble consistently, I thought DT was far, far better at that than Grayson and Matt, especially Matt. He's more used to it, having practiced on the ball for his entire career. Not the case with Matt and Grayson.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Remember Jay Bilas?

[Dukehky]

So you think this might be a "go to school closer to home" type of situation? In all honesty I think that would be the best of all possible outcomes to this drama, as it's completely understandable and justifiable from Derryck's point of view regardless of any arguments we might make about PT, development, etc.; and from Duke's point of view that means the program didn't do anything disingenuous. It would certainly make sense, and I hope that's the explanation.

I don't think Duke did anything to hinder DT's development as a person or player. His camp may have disagreed, and maybe that's the issue. It could be a congruence of issues with the fact that he's so far from home.

We won't know until someone issues a statement, but I guarantee that we did not say, Derryck, maybe its time to leave completely unprompted.

[Ian]

Oh my god, we all know what a true point guard is, just because K doesn't like to give people positions doesn't mean there aren't any or that you are any smarter for not acknowledging that there are true point guards. In this scenario I mean that Derryck has never played shooting guard, and has played his entire career at the 1; Grayson and Frank rarely play the 1 and almost always play the 2. That is what I mean.

Derryck would have been the best on ball defender on next year's team, there was room for that in the line-up had he stayed. Not worth arguing about since he's gone, but if you want to keep arguing that there are no position distinctions then let's roll.

I think more the point is that other than being 6'2, Thornton did not really displayed the skills that are usually attributed to a "true point guard", his turnover percentage of 17.8% was the the highest on the team among the regulars (IE scholarship players not named Jeter, Obi, Vrankovic). Not what you want from a "true point guard". His assist percentage was just 16.7% is also not what you'd like from a "true point guard". Grayson Allen the "not a true PG" had an assist percentage of 19.4%. Usually you'd like to see a PG with an assist percentage in the low to mid 20's.

That's why I don't agree with the conventional wisdom that Thornton's transfer robs Duke of a "true point guard" for next season, barring some massive improvement on his part he wasn't going to be the "true point guard" on next year's team any way.

[scottdude8]

We won't know until someone issues a statement, but I guarantee that we did not say, Derryck, maybe its time to leave completely unprompted.

Phew. I hope this is true, and I hope that Derryck feels the same way.

[Dukehky]

Phew. I hope this is true, and I hope that Derryck feels the same way.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210879589&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Wants to play closer to home. I think his dad didn't like the way he was being used and didn't like that his role was about to change, according to Laura and Adam. Adam stated that in his first statement that Thornton would transfer on BlueDevilLair (he posted that on twitter today).

Like I said, if we were going to force a player out to make room for Bolden, it wouldn't be our top 20 pg recruit. It would be one of our 2 centers, one of whom probably can't play for medical reasons, the other who isn't that talented (Vrank, no Jeter, high hopes for Jeter), or telling Jack White to buzz off.

But, Duke wouldn't do that, or at least be this obvious about it. That will be the narrative that gets pushed, but just tell whoever complains the above story. Sean Obi literally cannot play basketball right now, physically, why would we choose to push Thornton out? Like I said, click bait writers are some of the worst kinds of people, and the narrative they're pushing is idiotic.

[PalmettoExpat]

DURHAM, N.C. – Freshman guard Derryck Thornton will transfer out of Duke University, school officials announced Sunday. Thornton will depart Duke in good academic standing and is expected to transfer to another Division I institution.

“We wish Derryck the best and appreciate his contributions to our team this season,” Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski said. “We support his decision and want only what is best for him in the future.”

A native of Chatsworth, Calif., Thornton averaged 7.1 points and 2.6 assists in 36 games for Duke during the 2015-16 season.

“I have loved my time at Duke, but I want to pursue the opportunity to play college basketball closer to home,” Thornton said. “I want to thank my teammates and coaches for their support this year. The relationships I have with them will always be special to me.”

Duke finished the season with a 25-11 record, including an 11-7 mark in the ACC. The Blue Devils made their 21st consecutive NCAA Tournament appearance and advanced to the Sweet 16 for the 25th time in program history.

#GoDuke

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210879589&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[vick]

Phew. I hope this is true, and I hope that Derryck feels the same way.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is an 18-year-old. I like Derryck, I'm glad he helped us out this year, and wish him nothing but the best going forward. But I'm always surprised how often people look for deeper, or more troubling, issues. Sometimes that might be the case--if you have all-conference players leaving, if it's extremely frequent, that sort of thing--but sometimes he might just want to have a bigger role, or just have a different life. And that's OK!

[scottdude8]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210879589&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Wants to play closer to home. I think his dad didn't like the way he was being used and didn't like that his role was about to change, according to Laura and Adam. Adam stated that in his first statement that Thornton would transfer on BlueDevilLair (he posted that on twitter today).

Good news, and good to see actual quotes starting to come out. No bad feelings is good news!

[Alien700]

I know that it is all specualtion, but I think that Frank Jackson will take the role that Derryck took last year. That said, Frank is in no way a replacement for DT. Derryck was a player that I expected to develop into a true star. If Derryck stayed, he would be a much better player than he was last year. I hope that Derryck has a great career ahead of him.

[Troublemaker]

Phew. I hope this is true, and I hope that Derryck feels the same way.

There's a 35+ year history of this program not doing stuff like forcing players out to make room for others. Be confident that we didn't start now.


I think more the point is that other than being 6'2, Thornton did not really displayed the skills that are usually attributed to a "true point guard", his turnover percentage of 17.8% was the the highest on the team among the regulars (IE scholarship players not named Jeter, Obi, Vrankovic). Not what you want from a "true point guard". His assist percentage was just 16.7% is also not what you'd like from a "true point guard". Grayson Allen the "not a true PG" had an assist percentage of 19.4%. Usually you'd like to see a PG with an assist percentage in the low to mid 20's.

That's why I don't agree with the conventional wisdom that Thornton's transfer robs Duke of a "true point guard" for next season, barring some massive improvement on his part he wasn't going to be the "true point guard" on next year's team any way.

I think he would've shown a good deal of improvement in those areas next season. At the same time, between Grayson, Frank, Luke, and Matt, I'm definitely comfortable with our guard situation for 2016-17.

The real potential loss is for the 2017-18 season. Instead of a junior Derryck Thornton that has smoothed out his rough edges and might've been All-ACC caliber at that point, Duke will have TBD at PG.

[PalmettoExpat]

Adam Rowe @BlueDevilLair
Duke spent all year trying to get Thornton to stay. That's as far from forcing someone out as you can get.

Adam Rowe @BlueDevilLair
He was not forced out. Duke would've preferred he stayed. Things have been frosty between Duke and DT since January.

[Troublemaker]

Adam Rowe ‏@BlueDevilLair (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair) 3m3 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair/status/719242430462181376)
Duke spent all year trying to get Thornton to stay. That's as far from forcing someone out as you can get.

[scottdude8]

There's a 35+ year history of this program not doing stuff like forcing players out to make room for others. Be confident that we didn't start now.

I'm confident that the program and K do things the right way. I guess what I'm more concerned about (which I definitely didn't do a good job of correctly expressing) is that transfers give fuel to Duke hate in the media and potential negative recruiting tactics... especially considering the relative uptick in transfers that have occurred in the recent past in comparison to before the one-and-done era (Thornton, Semi, Alex Murphy and Silent G in the last few years alone). Maybe it's still an adjustment to the new landscape of college basketball that is still evolving.

I have faith in K and the program doing things the right way, which is one of the reasons I love being a Duke graduate and a Duke fan. But I'm never one to practice blind faith, so I always want to make sure things are still being done the right way, especially given the way other top-tier programs have become increasingly unscrupulous in the one-and-done era. As of now I'm definitely satisfied that this situation is on the up-and-up, despite my disappointment in losing a player I really liked.

[scottdude8]

Adam Rowe ‏@BlueDevilLair (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair) 3m3 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair/status/719242430462181376)
Duke spent all year trying to get Thornton to stay. That's as far from forcing someone out as you can get.


Consider my fears 100% assuaged. Thanks!

On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to make this post because I knew that was a perfect word to describe this situation, but I couldn't think of the word "assuage". That darn journalism training, lol.

[PalmettoExpat]

Adam really killing it on Twitter with these questions right now. Shout to Adam!

Adam Rowe @BlueDevilLair
He didn't want to leave. His dad did. twitter.com/deutschmarine/…

Wiggins to Drumpf @deutschmarine

@BlueDevilLair so he chose to reclassify only to not really want to stay at Duke all year? Weird.

Adam Rowe @BlueDevilLair
No. Great teammate. twitter.com/Connorhuge519/…

Connor Hughes @Connorhuge519

@BlueDevilLair were there locker room issues with Thornton?

Interesting about his dad. Glad Adam clarified questions about locker room issues. It did seem like D got along with everyone.

[dukelifer]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Aren't Oregon and Alaska farther away?

[wsb3]

Good news, and good to see actual quotes starting to come out. No bad feelings is good news!

Except Thornton's Uncle is bashing Duke on twitter.

[jipops]

This is a huge bummer. Hurts us some for next year but could be a major, major blow to Duke's roster in '17-'18. Either we'll have to rely on yet another freshman pg that season or won't have one at all (yes I'm assuming Jackson is gone by then).

Many transfers make sense. This doesn't make sense at all. He is a very good talent but a long ways to go before being on any draft boards. By his junior year he would be getting all the minutes he would want.

[Edouble]

Derryck was a high-ceiling player that showed flashes of his great potential last season, including great quickness, handle (despite occasional unforced errors), and defense. At the same time, he was a project with regard to decision-making, shooting, and vision.

It would've been really fun to watch him smooth out his rough edges and develop over the course of 3 or 4 years to reach his high ceiling.

It's a shame that it seems like this isn't going to happen.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel. I thought Derryck was absolutely a player that would hit his stride in mid year 2 or year 3.

I guess I thought that with coming early to Duke, and missing all of the fun/accolades of a senior year in high school, that he had more invested in the program that might cause him to stick around. This is the most disappointing transfer for me since McCaffrey, and makes less sense to me too.

[Furniture]

"Thornton was unhappy with his role, which was about to diminish even further with Frank Jackson and Grayson back"
2:43pm - 10 Apr 16

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/719234468381343744

[jimsumner]

Expect Duke to look at a traditional transfer option. Someone who would sit out next season but practice with the team and be ready to go for the 2017-'18 season.

There is a doomsday scenario out there in which Duke loses Jefferson (guaranteed), Jones (guaranteed), Giles and Tatum (darn near certain), Allen (could he graduate next year?), Jackson and Bolden (I know, I know) after 2017.

Seven of the top eight.

Kennard might be the only player with any significant experience returning, with Jeter, DeLaurier, White and Vrankovic having less PT.

Duke is in great shape with a number of elite class of 2017 types. But having a more experienced option also coming on-line would be good for all concerned.

A grad-student transfer true-PG? Anyone good enough to help Duke next season would likely have better options than coming in and competing with Allen, Jackson, Kennard and Jones.

[Jackson]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Jay Bilas!

[Tom B.]

I don't think Duke did anything to hinder DT's development as a person or player. His camp may have disagreed, and maybe that's the issue. It could be a congruence of issues with the fact that he's so far from home.

He got 20 starts and averaged 26 minutes per game. That's more than Quinn Cook got as a freshman, more than Nolan Smith got. He had every chance to show what he could do.

I'm pretty "Meh" about this. I never like it when a kid leaves, but he's made up his mind, so forward we go. Frank Jackson, come on down and take the keys.

[scottdude8]

A grad-student transfer true-PG? Anyone good enough to help Duke next season would likely have better options than coming in and competing with Allen, Jackson, Kennard and Jones.

Could Spike Albrecht potentially make me the happiest fan in the world and use his grad transfer year at Duke? I imagine he wants to go somewhere he can get a lot of PT, but if he'd prefer a chance at a championship he could come in and be the steady, experienced hand off the bench and play 10-15 minutes a game, which given his hip issues might be the best situation for him anyways. Who knows?

[Edouble]

Expect Duke to look at a traditional transfer option. Someone who would sit out next season but practice with the team and be ready to go for the 2017-'18 season.

This is not a rhetorical question, but a genuine inquiry:

But how often is a position-specific player who is good enough to play top level basketball available in any given season? Are you suggesting that we would be looking for point guard transfer specifically, or just any transfer student in order to beef up the roster at any position due to the possibility of the impending doomsday scenario?

[tbyers11]

Could Spike Albrecht potentially make me the happiest fan in the world and use his grad transfer year at Duke? I imagine he wants to go somewhere he can get a lot of PT, but if he'd prefer a chance at a championship he could come in and be the steady, experienced hand off the bench and play 10-15 minutes a game, which given his hip issues might be the best situation for him anyways. Who knows?

Grad transfers for next year aren't possible if Bolden decides for Duke. No scholarships.

[CDu]

Could Spike Albrecht potentially make me the happiest fan in the world and use his grad transfer year at Duke? I imagine he wants to go somewhere he can get a lot of PT, but if he'd prefer a chance at a championship he could come in and be the steady, experienced hand off the bench and play 10-15 minutes a game, which given his hip issues might be the best situation for him anyways. Who knows?

The last scholarship is reserved for Bolden. Albrecht is gonna play somewhere else.

[BD80]

We lose Derryck, but keep Grayson and get Bolden.

Things could have been worse.

I really don't see how sitting out a transfer year is better than coming off the bench for a championship contender then being a go to guy the next year.

Derryck was our best ball handler, fastest down the court and most able to stay in front of opposing point guards on defense. He is also a good kid. He will be missed. Best of luck to him.

[Edouble]

Thornton was unhappy with his role, which was about to diminish even further with Frank Jackson and Grayson back twitter.com/VonG116/status…
2:43pm - 10 Apr 16

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/719234468381343744

And Frosty since mid-January. Did his unhappiness come with not being in the starting line-up, or did he move out of the starting line-up due to his attitude (chicken/egg)?

Every time he took an open three, or that elbow jumper, it seemed like he would miss. Were those the shots that he wanted to take? His drives were usually successful, but I guess the coaching staff wanted him to set guys up instead? I mean, you gotta set up the #1 Draft Pick and the 2nd Team All-AMerican when they're on your team.

I suppose that he wanted more shots, if he was "unhappy with his role"? What other interpretation of "unhappy with his role" is there?

[jimsumner]

I do not believe Albrecht will be an option. Too many injury issues.

Yes, Duke will look for either a point guard or a combo guard.

Duke will have enough scholarships to accommodate Bolden and a transfer, should they be needed.

Thornton's transfer does not finalize next season's roster.

[jipops]

And Frosty since mid-January. Did his unhappiness come with not being in the starting line-up, or did he move out of the starting line-up due to his attitude (chicken/egg)?

Every time he took an open three, or that elbow jumper, it seemed like he would miss. Were those the shots that he wanted to take? His drives were usually successful, but I guess the coaching staff wanted him to set guys up instead? I mean, you gotta set up the #1 Draft Pick and the 2nd Team All-AMerican when they're on your team.

I suppose that he wanted more shots, if he was "unhappy with his role"? What other interpretation of "unhappy with his role" is there?

But which Thornton was actually "unhappy"?

[weezie]

I wish him the best but I'm sorry to learn of the transfer. I thought he showed great heart, especially since he came to us early. I hope he wasn't down on himself.
Good luck Derryck!

[Duke95]

Makai Mason, come on down.

[jipops]

I do not believe Albrecht will be an option. Too many injury issues.

Yes, Duke will look for either a point guard or a combo guard.

Duke will have enough scholarships to accommodate Bolden and a transfer, should they be needed.

Thornton's transfer does not finalize next season's roster.

So K is going to go after the "free agent" market he has so openly despised?

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I do not believe Albrecht will be an option. Too many injury issues.

Yes, Duke will look for either a point guard or a combo guard.

Duke will have enough scholarships to accommodate Bolden and a transfer, should they be needed.

Thornton's transfer does not finalize next season's roster.

Who else might be leaving?

[brlftz]

Duke will have enough scholarships to accommodate Bolden and a transfer, should they be needed.

Thornton's transfer does not finalize next season's roster.

wait, what?!?!

[CDu]

Expect Duke to look at a traditional transfer option. Someone who would sit out next season but practice with the team and be ready to go for the 2017-'18 season.

There is a doomsday scenario out there in which Duke loses Jefferson (guaranteed), Jones (guaranteed), Giles and Tatum (darn near certain), Allen (could he graduate next year?), Jackson and Bolden (I know, I know) after 2017.

Seven of the top eight.

Kennard might be the only player with any significant experience returning, with Jeter, DeLaurier, White and Vrankovic having less PT.

Duke is in great shape with a number of elite class of 2017 types. But having a more experienced option also coming on-line would be good for all concerned.

A grad-student transfer true-PG? Anyone good enough to help Duke next season would likely have better options than coming in and competing with Allen, Jackson, Kennard and Jones.

I am curious about this post. If we get Bolden we won't have an open scholarship available for a transfer (neither grad or traditional). Unless you are hinting that someone else is transferring too. I can think of two or even three such possibilities (two having minimal impact, one a bit more), but this is the first I heard of hinting in that direction.

[Troublemaker]

So K is going to go after the "free agent" market he has so openly despised?

Jim says in post #44 that Duke is expected to pursue a traditional transfer. Not a grad transfer, which is what Coach K doesn't like. (Although he did briefly pursue Tarik Black a couple of years back. As far as I know, the only grad transfer we've ever gone after.)

[PalmettoExpat]

wait, what?!?!

My thoughts exactly

[sagegrouse]

I actually HATE all of the no-position nonsense that is spouted on this board and never argued that there are no position distinctions. How in the world are you getting that from my post? I also disagree with the notion of a "true" point guard. There is a whole spectrum of skillsets seen in effective point guards. Was Jon Scheyer a "false" point guard? Was Quinn Cook a "true" shooting guard last year?

I think "true" as in "perfectly aligned with." Of course, it would be interesting discuss the attributes that are being aligned with.

[fraggler]

Who else might be leaving?

No one necessarily has to leave. Scholarships are year to year so someone could play (or sit on the bench) without one if I understand correctly. Can't speculate on specifics, but someone who isn't likely to play next year or ever could be asked to give up a scholarship for a year.

[ncexnyc]

Anyone who thinks Derryck's transfer, isn't a blow to our chances for a championship next season is only fooling themselves.

Neither Frank, Grayson, or Matt are the answer at PG for next season.

[CDu]

No one necessarily has to leave. Scholarships are year to year so someone could play (or sit on the bench) without one if I understand correctly. Can't speculate on specifics, but someone who isn't likely to play next year or ever could be asked to give up a scholarship for a year.

If I am reading Jim's post correctly, someone is leaving. If I am really reading it correctly, that someone won't dramatically change the fortunes of the team.

[NYBri]

Had a weird feeling about DT. Not a bad one, but I just thought he didn't fit somehow.

Wonder how things might have been different if we had more flexibility and depth this year.

[freshmanjs]

Anyone who thinks Derryck's transfer, isn't a blow to our chances for a championship next season is only fooling themselves.

Neither Frank, Grayson, or Matt are the answer at PG for next season.

He wasn't going to play much (would have been #5 guard) so the outcome will be similar either way (whether you think he was critically important or not)

[burnspbesq]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

Parks, Price, Meek, Bilas.

[ipatent]

Derryck would have had plenty of playing time next year. Maybe he knew he wouldn't be ready to make the jump to the next level at the end of the year and didn't like being recruited over, which was probably happening.

So next year we go one deep on ball handlers (Jackson, an untested combo guard), with Grayson, Tatum and (cough) Jones to help in a pinch? Sounds precarious. It won't be the first time the team has had a contender that is thin in the backcourt, but we're one sprained ankle away from having a Lamborghini next March without a steering wheel.

Bolden would be a good get, but we need another point guard more. One that's eligible next year.

[ncexnyc]

He wasn't going to play much (would have been #5 guard) so the outcome will be similar either way (whether you think he was critically important or not)

Well it's good to know you have access to our depth chart for next year.:rolleyes:

[freshmanjs]

Derryck would have had plenty of playing time next year. Maybe he knew he wouldn't be ready to make the jump to the next level at the end of the year and didn't like being recruited over, which was probably happening.

So next year we go one deep on ball handlers (Jackson, an untested combo guard), with Grayson, Tatum and (cough) Jones to help in a pinch? Sounds precarious. It won't be the first time the team has had a contender that is thin in the backcourt, but we're one sprained ankle away from having a Lamborghini next March without a steering wheel.

Bolden would be a good get, but we need another point guard more. One that's eligible next year.

I don't understand. We will have 5 starting caliber guards on the roster. That is plenty and certainly not a sprained ankle away from anything.

[jimsumner]

Parks, Price, Meek, Bilas.

I believe Scott Goetsch and Steve Gray were Duke's first California recruits. Both were Bill Foster guys.

[YmoBeThere]

No Californian, but Arizonan Mark Alarie also stayed four years. So, along with Oregonians and Alaskans, the distance from home barrier really isn't one. Just think how many Duke undergrads in general are from California. I myself went to high school in AZ before enrolling at Duke. So, while some may mention wanting to be closer to home, in this case and in most I think it is a red herring. Awfully convenient however, even if he ended up in Tennessee he'd be closer to home.

[fraggler]

If I am reading Jim's post correctly, someone is leaving. If I am really reading it correctly, that someone won't dramatically change the fortunes of the team.

Now that you mention it, he did allude to it in a different thread, though if I was reading it correctly at the time, I will would understand, but still be very disappointed. Hope I am wrong about who I think it might be.

[fraggler]

Derryck would have had plenty of playing time next year. Maybe he knew he wouldn't be ready to make the jump to the next level at the end of the year and didn't like being recruited over, which was probably happening.

So next year we go one deep on ball handlers (Jackson, an untested combo guard), with Grayson, Tatum and (cough) Jones to help in a pinch? Sounds precarious. It won't be the first time the team has had a contender that is thin in the backcourt, but we're one sprained ankle away from having a Lamborghini next March without a steering wheel.

Bolden would be a good get, but we need another point guard more. One that's eligible next year.

Don't forget Luke. He is probably our best returning ballhandler.

[freshmanjs]

Well it's good to know you have access to our depth chart for next year.:rolleyes:

Don't need access to anything to see that he was unlikely to pass Allen, Kennard, or Jones on the depth chart. Based on how well Frank Jackson has been doing lately, I expect Thornton would have been behind him too (but we will never know).

[NashvilleDevil]

Anyone who thinks Derryck's transfer, isn't a blow to our chances for a championship next season is only fooling themselves.

Neither Frank, Grayson, or Matt are the answer at PG for next season.

You're basing this on what? You don't think Grayson can improve ball handling for next season? You don't think Matt can fully recover from his ankle issues by next season?

[CDu]

Now that you mention it, he did allude to it in a different thread, though if I was reading it correctly at the time, I will would understand, but still be very disappointed. Hope I am wrong about who I think it might be.

If I am reading his post correctly, then if you are especially disappointed in that departure (at least as it relates to on-court contributions), then I think maybe you are wrong about who it is. But, we will probably find out soon enough.

[gumbomoop]

So next year we go one deep on ball handlers (Jackson, an untested combo guard), with Grayson, Tatum and (cough) Jones to help in a pinch?

I intend this to be a friendly amendment, but you may not see it that way.

Kennard has an excellent handle. Plus, he has vision, court sense, and passing skills.

[sagegrouse]

The only California kid that we kept for all 4 years to my memory was Demarcus Nelson.

I shared your views and decided to look up the records for all Coach K players from California. I may have missed someone, but here's what I have:


Jay Bilas made a mark on the basketball court and in the classroom
Erik Meek stayed four years and was a good player
Cherokee Parks was an all-star and four-year player
Ricky Price had his academic and basketball difficulties but stayed through four years.
Chris Burgess was a two-year player and his Dad was unhappy.
DeMarcus Nelson was an excellent player and teammate.
Jamal Boykin stayed a year and transferred to Cal for playing time.
Taylor King was your basic "mistake."
And now Derryck apparently transfers after one year.
I wish Derryck the best, and am happy he was a Blue Devil.


Anyway, the record overall isn't bad, but we have had three straight players from California who lasted only one year.

[Troublemaker]

Derryck would have had plenty of playing time next year. Maybe he knew he wouldn't be ready to make the jump to the next level at the end of the year and didn't like being recruited over, which was probably happening.

Nope. Duke backed off its pursuit of 2017 PGs for Derryck. We'll now have to play catch up to other programs to hopefully land one.

If you're talking about Frank, he didn't even play PG in high school. They could've co-existed.




So next year we go one deep on ball handlers (Jackson, an untested combo guard), with Grayson, Tatum and (cough) Jones to help in a pinch? Sounds precarious. It won't be the first time the team has had a contender that is thin in the backcourt, but we're one sprained ankle away from having a Lamborghini next March without a steering wheel.

Bolden would be a good get, but we need another point guard more. One that's eligible next year.

Don't forget Kennard. 5 perimeter players, 4 of whom can create, should be fine. As I wrote upthread, the real loss is junior Derryck Thornton.

[JMarley50]

I must admit when the rumors started circulating it didn't really surprise me. To me, from watching his body language, it showed that he wasn't happy. He almost came across like junior year Andre at times. There was the little altercation between him and Grayson, then I'm pretty sure he told Marshall to get the F off of him when Marshall was trying to get everyone pumped up during a timeout. There were eye rolls when being talked to, it just didn't seem like he was very content. I wish him luck!

[gumbomoop]

Duke backed off its pursuit of 2017 PGs for Derryck. We'll now have to play catch up to other programs to hopefully land one.

Seeking clarification here. Did you mean to say 2016 PGs? I have assumed Duke has maintained interest in several Class of 2017 PGs, which interest would now presumably intensify.

[jimsumner]

No Californian, but Arizonan Mark Alarie also stayed four years. So, along with Oregonians and Alaskans, the distance from home barrier really isn't one. Just think how many Duke undergrads in general are from California. I myself went to high school in AZ before enrolling at Duke. So, while some may mention wanting to be closer to home, in this case and in most I think it is a red herring. Awfully convenient however, even if he ended up in Tennessee he'd be closer to home.

We could indeed add Alarie, Langdon, Boozer, Dunleavy and Singler. Taymon Domzalski was from New Mexico, not exactly an easy commute. Quin Snyder was from the Seattle suburbs.

In fact, K's first five recruits at Duke were from El Paso, Ontario, Minnesota, Colorado and Detroit.

Duke did lose one of K's early recruits to home sickness. Bill Jackman was from a tiny town in Nebraska and really did have home-sickness issues.

But if Duke had to rely on local talent, it would be substantially more difficult to build and sustain the program K has built and sustained. Almost all of K's top recruits elected to turn down a local school, whether it be Maryland or UCLA or Indiana or Villanova or Rutgers. It's just the reality of being Duke.

[Dukehky]

I didn't mean to imply that kids get traditionally homesick, or that the distance was an issue.

I literally just kind of meant to offer a weird stat, that lately, our California recruits haven't lasted too long here with the exception of Nelson.

I'm sure it's not an issue, maybe Cali kids these days are just different.

Look to sage's post up the page for the complete list.

[dukelifer]

This is a huge bummer. Hurts us some for next year but could be a major, major blow to Duke's roster in '17-'18. Either we'll have to rely on yet another freshman pg that season or won't have one at all (yes I'm assuming Jackson is gone by then).

Many transfers make sense. This doesn't make sense at all. He is a very good talent but a long ways to go before being on any draft boards. By his junior year he would be getting all the minutes he would want.

Jackson will have to show an awful lot to leave after one year. If he leads Duke to a national championship with a Tyus Jones type performance- maybe- but that is expecting a lot.

[brlftz]

speaking TRUTH about our history with california players is great and all, but i'd love to stay on topic and see if Jim would be willing to clarify what he meant about having room for Bolden AND a transfer...

[Dukehky]

speaking TRUTH about our history with california players is great and all, but i'd love to stay on topic and see if Jim would be willing to clarify what he meant about having room for Bolden AND a transfer...

Not sure transfers count against the scholarship limit while they sit out.

Orrrrrrrr, Obi seriously may not be able to play basketball anymore. My two thoughts on the matter.

[PalmettoExpat]

Nope. Duke backed off its pursuit of 2017 PGs for Derryck. We'll now have to play catch up to other programs to hopefully land one.
...

Don't forget Kennard. 5 perimeter players, 4 of whom can create, should be fine. As I wrote upthread, the real loss is junior Derryck Thornton.

Sad his family got in the way on this one - totally agree the real loss is 2017-2018 Derryck. He would be have been a solid, possibly great, four-year player for us. Will we increase recruiting on Trevon Duval? He's supposedly a Zona lean. Or possible the traditional transfer market like Jim Sumner mentioned...

[CDu]

Not sure transfers count against the scholarship limit while they sit out.

Orrrrrrrr, Obi seriously may not be able to play basketball anymore. My two thoughts on the matter.

Transfers do count against the scholarship limit. If Duke is paying for their education, it counts towards the limit.

[miramar]

I shared your views and decided to look up the records for all Coach K players from California. I may have missed someone, but here's what I have:


Jay Bilas made a mark on the basketball court and in the classroom
Erik Meek stayed four years and was a good player
Cherokee Parks was an all-star and four-year player
Ricky Price had his academic and basketball difficulties but stayed through four years.
Chris Burgess was a two-year player and his Dad was unhappy.
DeMarcus Nelson was an excellent player and teammate.
Jamal Boykin stayed a year and transferred to Cal for playing time.
Taylor King was your basic "mistake."
And now Derryck apparently transfers after one year.
I wish Derryck the best, and am happy he was a Blue Devil.


Anyway, the record overall isn't bad, but we have had three straight players from California who lasted only one year.

It's hard to judge the record since we are going back a really long time (back to the days when Bilas had a full head of hair), but it's kind of unusual to see what has happened from Ricky Price on. Price (enrolled 1994) was there but not entirely, Burgess (1997) had family issues, Demarcus (2004) was a real warrior, Boykin (2005) didn't seem to have his heart in it during the short time he stayed, Taylor King (2007) was on cloud nine (or at least surrounded by smoke), and then Derrick (2015) is here today gone tomorrow.

IIRC, Price was recruited back in the day when Coach K was forced to recruit based on reputation because of all of his outside commitments, which meant that some guys just weren't a good fit. Nowadays, that is no longer the case, but I wonder if it's harder to keep up with recruits who are 3,000 miles away, so even if the coaching staff does due diligence, you still end up with some mistakes or misfits.

[Blue KevIL]

I am curious about this post. If we get Bolden we won't have an open scholarship available for a transfer (neither grad or traditional). Unless you are hinting that someone else is transferring too. I can think of two or even three such possibilities (two having minimal impact, one a bit more), but this is the first I heard of hinting in that direction.

I'm sure I saw talk on the DBR Board (before the Derryck Thornton transfer news) that Justin Robinson would/may revert back to Preferred Walk-On status thereby opening a scholarship for 2016-17.

[ipatent]

It's hard to judge the record since we are going back a really long time (back to the days when Bilas had a full head of hair), but it's kind of unusual to see what has happened from Ricky Price on. Price (enrolled 1994) was there but not entirely, Burgess (1997) had family issues, Demarcus (2004) was a real warrior, Boykin (2005) didn't seem to have his heart in it during the short time he stayed, Taylor King (2007) was on cloud nine (or at least surrounded by smoke), and then Derrick (2015) is here today gone tomorrow.

IIRC, Price was recruited back in the day when Coach K was forced to recruit based on reputation because of all of his outside commitments, which meant that some guys just weren't a good fit. Nowadays, that is no longer the case, but I wonder if it's harder to keep up with recruits who are 3,000 miles away, so even if the coaching staff does due diligence, you still end up with some mistakes or misfits.

Cherokee Parks had a nice career at Duke, and Erik Meek finished well despite having to overcome an accident.

[Dukehky]

I'm sure I saw talk on the DBR Board (before the Derryck Thornton transfer news) that Justin Robinson would/may revert back to Preferred Walk-On status thereby opening a scholarship for 2016-17.

That is already being considered. If we get Bolden, Justin doesn't have a scholarship. If we don't get Bolden and pick up a transfer, Justing doesn't have a scholarship. If we don't get Bolden and don't pick up a transfer, Justin get's a scholarship.

Can we pin this to the top of the board until our roster is set?

[CDu]

I'm sure I saw talk on the DBR Board (before the Derryck Thornton transfer news) that Justin Robinson would/may revert back to Preferred Walk-On status thereby opening a scholarship for 2016-17.

As has been noted many times, Robinson was already reverting back to non-scholarship status, even before this. We would be at 13 scholarships with Bolden even with Robinson off scholarship. So to get a transfer someone else would have to leave the team.

[BigWayne]

I'm sure I saw talk on the DBR Board (before the Derryck Thornton transfer news) that Justin Robinson would/may revert back to Preferred Walk-On status thereby opening a scholarship for 2016-17.

That is assumed already. Before Thornton's announcement, even counting Robinson going back to non-scholarship status, Duke had 13 players on the list because Amile is still on the list as of now. With Thornton leaving, there is one available spot to add a new recruit, either Bolden, a transfer, or someone else.

[Blue KevIL]

As has been noted many times, Robinson was already reverting back to non-scholarship status, even before this. We would be at 13 scholarships with Bolden even with Robinson off scholarship. So to get a transfer someone else would have to leave the team.

Thanks for the clarification.



That is assumed already. Before Thornton's announcement, even counting Robinson going back to non-scholarship status, Duke had 13 players on the list because Amile is still on the list as of now. With Thornton leaving, there is one available spot to add a new recruit, either Bolden, a transfer, or someone else.

Thanks for the clarification.

[jipops]

Jackson will have to show an awful lot to leave after one year. If he leads Duke to a national championship with a Tyus Jones type performance- maybe- but that is expecting a lot.

Granted I'm relying on a lot of the hype that is accompanying him now. But it certainly seems within the realm of possibility that he is gone sooner than later. And it wouldn't take a national championship to do this either.

[killerleft]

What is a true point guard?

He would have been the #5 guard on the depth chart next season.

Bold statement. I doubt that seriously. Buy it doesn't matter now, anyway.

[freshmanjs]

Jackson will have to show an awful lot to leave after one year. If he leads Duke to a national championship with a Tyus Jones type performance- maybe- but that is expecting a lot.

Almost all of the players who leave early do not lead their team to a national championship. Why is that a criterion?

[duke4ever19]

His uncle has some interesting things to say on this. Blames the staff for "stealing" part of his nephew's childhood.


https://mobile.twitter.com/MEdwardsBball?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[slower]

His uncle has some interesting things to say on this. Blames the staff for "stealing" part of his nephew's childhood.


https://mobile.twitter.com/MEdwardsBball?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Seems to have just a TINY anger issue. Glad this knucklehead wasn't hanging around the program.

[TKG]

Seems to have just a TINY anger issue. Glad this knucklehead wasn't hanging around the program.

As an Atlanta-based trainer maybe he will now steere his clients to Postner.

[dukelifer]

Almost all of the players who leave early do not lead their team to a national championship. Why is that a criterion?

Not for all players but for 6' 3" guards who are not known to be elite shooters, possess a supernatural handle or have family pressures. He looks to be a very good player who will likely improve over time but there are many upperclassman college players with his skillset. He would have to blow up next year to leave early IMO.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't want to disparage his family. They want what is best for him. If that is different than the program and Coach see it, so be it. Let everyone go pursue their best interests as they see fit.

Thornton was a good contributor to our team. That's my ultimate take-away. Good luck to him if he or his family think a different path is best. Nothing but positive vibes from here.

[freshmanjs]

He would have to blow up next year to leave early IMO.

Of course, but a NC is not necessary (or even particularly relevant) for that to happen.

[azzefkram]

Given the unmentionables that have been floating around, I have had some time to come to grips with this but it still stings. I wish Derryck the best wherever his travels may take him. While he had the growing pains that most freshman points have, I had high hopes for year 2 Derryck. I think people are underestimating his impact on the perimeter. He was are onky guard who could consistently stay in front of opposing 1 & 2's.

[ipatent]

Derryck didn't have a full summer to get used to the other players. He noticeably improved during the course of the season. His defense at the point was a strong point and won the game in Chapel Hill. He was still a work in progress, but there was obvious potential. Too bad it didn't work out, and wish him best of luck wherever he ends up. The extra year of practice should serve him well.

[duke74]

Thornton was unhappy with his role, which was about to diminish even further with Frank Jackson and Grayson back twitter.com/VonG116/status…
2:43pm - 10 Apr 16

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/719234468381343744

So...he didn't have the guts to stay and fight for minutes....? Enough said. Wish him well, but bah bye....

[Atlanta Duke]

His uncle has some interesting things to say on this. Blames the staff for "stealing" part of his nephew's childhood.


https://mobile.twitter.com/MEdwardsBball?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Thanks for the link - not just comments on how the program allegedly treated his nephew but shots at the assistant coaches' attitude in interacting with others

Just a wild guess these observations were shared with K and his assistants with increasing frequency once Luke Kennard became the starter

Best of luck to Derryck Thornton and sorry it did not work out at Duke

[OldPhiKap]

So...he didn't have the guts to stay and fight for minutes...? Enough said. Wish him well, but bah bye...

I'm not sure that is really fair. And again, as best I can tell, it is some members of his family more than it is him.

No need to trash the kid on the way out. He is always part of the family.

[BD80]

... Yes, Duke will look for either a point guard or a combo guard.

Duke will have enough scholarships to accommodate Bolden and a transfer, should they be needed.

Thornton's transfer does not finalize next season's roster.


Nice tease.

How long until another shoe drops? We can't/shouldn't speculate as to who, but maybe the when?

[ncexnyc]

Nice tease.

How long until another shoe drops? We can't/shouldn't speculate as to who, but maybe the when?

Isn't Spring Signing Day later this week? I'd guess we get the answer by Friday at the latest.

[brlftz]

Isn't Spring Signing Day later this week? I'd guess we get the answer by Friday at the latest.

i don't think that's what the tease is about...a transfer in/out wouldn't necessarily be tied to that day

[fraggler]

I was assuming that anything official from the team would come after the banquet.

[freshmanjs]

I was assuming that anything official from the team would come after the banquet.

Why? This news just came out before the banquet. Why would you assume another potential transfer would wait til after?

[duke74]

I'm not sure that is really fair. And again, as best I can tell, it is some members of his family more than it is him.

No need to trash the kid on the way out. He is always part of the family.

OPK, understand your point but am not "trashing" him. Just stating what appears to be a fact.

And not sure he will be always part of the family. As my favorite singer said "A Painter Passing Through". No footprints left in this sand.

Time to move on to folks who want to be here.

[ncexnyc]

You're basing this on what? You don't think Grayson can improve ball handling for next season? You don't think Matt can fully recover from his ankle issues by next season?
Let's see, Grayson can definitely improve his ball handling, but PG worthy, NO.

Matt's ankles have nothing to do with the issue. His ankles were healthy for the majority of the season and from what I saw of him running the point it was worse than when T.T. ran the PG spot for us.

Luke does have a decent handle, but again it's not the at the level you need from a PG. Down the road maybe, but are you willing to waste a whole year retooling the kid's game?

As far as Frank goes, he's new to the system and he isn't a true PG. He had a great McD's game, but his Nike game wasn't much to write home about. Again, he's a freshman and you'd be asking him to not only pick-up our system, but become the PG for what should be a high powered offense.

[OldPhiKap]

OPK, understand your point but am not "trashing" him. Just stating what appears to be a fact.

And not sure he will be always part of the family. As my favorite singer said "A Painter Passing Through". No footprints left in this sand.

Time to move on to folks who want to be here.

No worries. Next play.

[wsb3]

Derryck didn't have a full summer to get used to the other players.

That is a good point & I wondered how it would impact him to get to school late. Coach K said it was huge for Ty, Jah, & Justice to spend the time together that they did.

If Derryck has been unhappy since January then he made the right decision & it is best for him & for Duke. I hoped he would walk in from day one & run the show & maybe when that did not happen he did not handle it well. Plus as has been stated when you have a Dad that knows more than Coach K or maybe thinks he does..Geez I coached kids for 20 years, some high school & by college you would think parents might know to back off but obviously not. As far as his uncle goes & his rants on twitter it comes off to me as someone getting his 15 minutes of fame off the back of his nephew.

I wish Derryck well. It is a disappointment especially after he reclassified to come. I saw him as a four year player much like Quin.

[grossbus]

Big issue for me is who checks the other team's PG e.g. Berry II.

[FerryFor50]

For anyone curious why a) Thornton is transferring and b) why Coach K wasn't likely trying too hard to keep him, search Twitter for "Derryck Thornton uncle" for some clues.

[MartyClark]

Given the unmentionables that have been floating around, I have had some time to come to grips with this but it still stings. I wish Derryck the best wherever his travels may take him. While he had the growing pains that most freshman points have, I had high hopes for year 2 Derryck. I think people are underestimating his impact on the perimeter. He was are onky guard who could consistently stay in front of opposing 1 & 2's.

You said it well. I think Duke will miss this kid. He's quick and, I think, has the potential to be very good.

[OldPhiKap]

For anyone curious why a) Thornton is transferring and b) why Coach K wasn't likely trying too hard to keep him, search Twitter for "Derryck Thornton uncle" for some clues.

K was apparently trying to keep him per Adam Rowe.

Not to take away from your point. But Duke apparently did its part to make it work next year.

[kmspeaks]

I don't want to disparage his family. They want what is best for him. If that is different than the program and Coach see it, so be it. Let everyone go pursue their best interests as they see fit.

Thornton was a good contributor to our team. That's my ultimate take-away. Good luck to him if he or his family think a different path is best. Nothing but positive vibes from here.

I wish Derryck the best of luck and hope he finds whatever it is he was looking for that he didn't get at Duke. However as someone who transferred in college from a place where I was getting lots of playing time but just wasn't a good fit, I would be highly embarrassed if my uncle or other family member was spouting off on twitter like that. Thankfully Derryck has shown more maturity and class.

[Troublemaker]

Let's see, Grayson can definitely improve his ball handling, but PG worthy, NO.

Matt's ankles have nothing to do with the issue. His ankles were healthy for the majority of the season and from what I saw of him running the point it was worse than when T.T. ran the PG spot for us.

Luke does have a decent handle, but again it's not the at the level you need from a PG. Down the road maybe, but are you willing to waste a whole year retooling the kid's game?

As far as Frank goes, he's new to the system and he isn't a true PG. He had a great McD's game, but his Nike game wasn't much to write home about. Again, he's a freshman and you'd be asking him to not only pick-up our system, but become the PG for what should be a high powered offense.

Re: ball-handling, we'll definitely have enough handlers. I don't think, for example, a Jackson-Allen-Tatum perimeter has any less handle than the Oklahoma trio that went to the Final Four; the Sooners didn't really have a true PG either. Same with the Syracuse trio of Gbinije-Cooney-Richardson. Duke will also have big men like Giles and Jefferson that can handle the ball extremely well for their positions, and that will help, too. As does the overall talent of the team regardless of ball-handling.

The issue is more with having a distributor's mindset, passing vision, and timing. Will Duke have someone (or preferably a couple someones) who can sacrifice their own scoring, see the court, and deliver passes on time to talented teammates in Duke's sets? That's the big question, but quite frankly, that was going to be the question anyway even if Derryck were on the roster. He needed to make a lot of strides in those areas and improve upon his freshman-level performance, which produced a low rate of assists and many inefficiencies shooting the ball; very few Duke players have averaged 26 mpg and gotten 20 starts while sporting a sub-100 offensive rating.

Look, nobody's going to argue that having Tyus Jones as the PG is the ideal situation. And we don't have an ideal situation at PG next season. But, I don't think it's going to prevent us from being at least top 3 and probably the favorite. And we wouldn't have had a Tyus Jones situation had Derryck and his family decided to return to Duke, anyway.

[FerryFor50]

I don't want to disparage his family. They want what is best for him. If that is different than the program and Coach see it, so be it. Let everyone go pursue their best interests as they see fit.

Thornton was a good contributor to our team. That's my ultimate take-away. Good luck to him if he or his family think a different path is best. Nothing but positive vibes from here.

That's fair, but they seem to be burning the bridge on the way out.

If anything, maybe wait until you're enrolled at another school or in the NBA first?

[Duke76]

Anyone who thinks Derryck's transfer, isn't a blow to our chances for a championship next season is only fooling themselves.

Neither Frank, Grayson, or Matt are the answer at PG for next season.

I don't think it is a material one. In all honesty he wasn't a classic point guard. what did he average for assists in games when he started or played considerable minutes?? ...not sure it was but 2 or 3 per game, didn't think he looked to pass first much of the time...he was good defensively but I don't think I am fooling myself. If it is a blow, its a little one that we can overcome with the firepower we have, unfortunately we will have to wait about 50 weeks to see who's right.

[SFDukie]

Take it for what it's worth. :rolleyes:

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2016/4/10/11402428/derryck-thornton-leaving-duke-kentucky-marques-bolden-recruitment

[moonpie23]

sorry to hear of this....i liked him......well wishes to him as he moves on......

next?

[moonpie23]

Take it for what it's worth. :rolleyes:

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2016/4/10/11402428/derryck-thornton-leaving-duke-kentucky-marques-bolden-recruitment

does anyone say/write anything nice when a duke player transfers?

[NashvilleDevil]

Let's see, Grayson can definitely improve his ball handling, but PG worthy, NO.

Matt's ankles have nothing to do with the issue. His ankles were healthy for the majority of the season and from what I saw of him running the point it was worse than when T.T. ran the PG spot for us.

Luke does have a decent handle, but again it's not the at the level you need from a PG. Down the road maybe, but are you willing to waste a whole year retooling the kid's game?

As far as Frank goes, he's new to the system and he isn't a true PG. He had a great McD's game, but his Nike game wasn't much to write home about. Again, he's a freshman and you'd be asking him to not only pick-up our system, but become the PG for what should be a high powered offense.

I disagree with just about everything you posted. I think Derryck would have been fine next year and really good his junior year. I do not think soph Derryck would be better than 3rd year Grayson, 4th year Matt, 2nd year Luke, and Frank. Next year's team will need a point like Avery was for the 99 team, he could score and he dumped it off to Brand or kicked it out to Trajan.

[Spanarkel]

Not sure why DT's name was difficult to spell for some, but GoDuke.com has DT, on its Duke Basketball Database/Player Database section(that lists the entire '15-'16 roster), listed as "Derryck THOMPSON."(when you get to the individual stat page, it IS properly spelled there)

[killerleft]

For anyone curious why a) Thornton is transferring and b) why Coach K wasn't likely trying too hard to keep him, search Twitter for "Derryck Thornton uncle" for some clues.

I think it's already been said that Duke, meaning Coach K, was trying hard to keep Derryck all year. Does the Twitterverse trump that somehow?

[Stray Gator]

Let's see, Grayson can definitely improve his ball handling, but PG worthy, NO.

Matt's ankles have nothing to do with the issue. His ankles were healthy for the majority of the season and from what I saw of him running the point it was worse than when T.T. ran the PG spot for us.

Luke does have a decent handle, but again it's not the at the level you need from a PG. Down the road maybe, but are you willing to waste a whole year retooling the kid's game?

As far as Frank goes, he's new to the system and he isn't a true PG. He had a great McD's game, but his Nike game wasn't much to write home about. Again, he's a freshman and you'd be asking him to not only pick-up our system, but become the PG for what should be a high powered offense.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[FerryFor50]

I think it's already been said that Duke, meaning Coach K, was trying hard to keep Derryck all year. Does the Twitterverse trump that somehow?

Twitter isn't saying K didn't try to keep him (at least from the tweeters that matter).

I'm referring to DT's uncle setting fire to the bridge on the way out and why I could see the staff being ok with his decision.

[Rich]

Twitter isn't saying K didn't try to keep him (at least from the tweeters that matter).

Adam Rowe reported that the staff has been trying to convince him to stay since January.

[FerryFor50]

Adam Rowe reported that the staff has been trying to convince him to stay since January.

I know this.

Why is everyone missing my point?

Rowe also said that the staff and Thornton's camp were too fractured to be repaired.

[sagegrouse]

Twitter isn't saying K didn't try to keep him (at least from the tweeters that matter).

I'm referring to DT's uncle setting fire to the bridge on the way out and why I could see the staff being ok with his decision.

Is he really an uncle or just a trainer?

[DukieInBrasil]

It appears that Derryck's family has a higher regard for his talent than he showed last year. He was given every opportunity to be the starting PG and he just wasn't good enough to hold onto it. That shouldn't really be surprising, seeing as how he was a Fr., and not named Tyus Jones. I agree with a previous comment that queried that if he wasn't willing to fight for his PT next year and just expected whatever, then that shows that he's not the player we need.
It's a shame his family, and particularly his uncle, were such a negative force on his ability to stay at Duke, learn withe GOAT and continue developing into a fine ball player, while earning a degree from a top-flight university. Such a waste.

[FerryFor50]

Is he really an uncle or just a trainer?

Allegedly his uncle.

Either way, it's a bad look.

If I were DT I'd distance myself from that toxicity.

[Saratoga2]

I honestly believed he would start at PG at the outset of the season ans keep that role provided he showed improvement in his floor awareness and shooting. He has unique quickness for the Duke team and his handle was also superior to anyone else on the team. If he or his family had problems with how he was treated as is postulated on this site, then I he took the route of transferring.

We can have Matt, Luke or Frank take that role on the starting team. I wouldn't give the job to Grayson as his scoring is critical to the teams overall success.

I am sorry to see Derryck leave and hope for him he finds a situation more satisfactory to the Thornton's.

[Wahoo2000]

Allegedly his uncle.

Either way, it's a bad look.

If I were DT I'd distance myself from that toxicity.

He's an 18 year old kid, not a PR savvy adult professional. What do you want him to do, publicly make a statement renouncing the "more vocal" members of his family? As an 18 year old kid, is he supposed to go to his uncle and tell him to shut up? Had the uncle even made any comments like this before today? Would Derryck even have known it was a possibility that his uncle would make those statements publicly?

I get saying his uncle is letting his emotions get the best of him and doing some things he shouldn't be. But to insinuate that that should reflect poorly on Derryck and somehow make Duke's staff not-so-sorry-to-see-him-go? Sheesh.

We all have a crazy relative(s). I hope the next time mine does something dumb that I don't get judged for it, or have people close to me thinking they'd be happy not to be associated with me anymore because of an hour or two of venting on twitter.

I think Thornton seems like a good kid who did Duke a favor (moreso than the other way around) by reclassifying. Maybe that cost him some development that kept him from becoming the player he could have/should have been. Then again, maybe it didn't and it wouldn't have worked out for him and Duke regardless. Fact remains that without him this season, you guys would have been in even more dire straits for playable bodies. Now, it looks like he decided he wasn't K's 1-A plan at PG going forward, and wants to go somewhere where he'll have more of a chance to contribute (and be closer to home). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No reason to hate on the kid - for his decision, OR for his family's reaction to it (which IS outside his control, btw).

[sagegrouse]

Anyway, Thornton played all 36 of Duke's games and averaged 26.0 minutes. He did not start the last five games but still played the majority of the minutes: 19, 22, 24, 23, 23. It kinda sounds like he never unpacked his bags. I liked Derryck and liked his game; I am sorry he is not returning.

[Troublemaker]

Now, it looks like he decided he wasn't K's 1-A plan at PG going forward, and wants to go somewhere where he'll have more of a chance to contribute (and be closer to home). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No reason to hate on the kid - for his decision, OR for his family's reaction to it (which IS outside his control, btw).

Well, he was definitely the plan at PG for his junior and senior years. Prior to that, he needed to develop to have a stranglehold on the position. Once again, last season he got 20 starts despite low assist rate, poor shooting, and a sub-100 offensive rating. He could've stayed, improved incrementally, and have that stranglehold by his junior year. But apparently his family wanted more.

[FerryFor50]

He's an 18 year old kid, not a PR savvy adult professional. What do you want him to do, publicly make a statement renouncing the "more vocal" members of his family? As an 18 year old kid, is he supposed to go to his uncle and tell him to shut up? Had the uncle even made any comments like this before today? Would Derryck even have known it was a possibility that his uncle would make those statements publicly?

I get saying his uncle is letting his emotions get the best of him and doing some things he shouldn't be. But to insinuate that that should reflect poorly on Derryck and somehow make Duke's staff not-so-sorry-to-see-him-go? Sheesh.

We all have a crazy relative(s). I hope the next time mine does something dumb that I don't get judged for it, or have people close to me thinking they'd be happy not to be associated with me anymore because of an hour or two of venting on twitter.

I think Thornton seems like a good kid who did Duke a favor (moreso than the other way around) by reclassifying. Maybe that cost him some development that kept him from becoming the player he could have/should have been. Then again, maybe it didn't and it wouldn't have worked out for him and Duke regardless. Fact remains that without him this season, you guys would have been in even more dire straits for playable bodies. Now, it looks like he decided he wasn't K's 1-A plan at PG going forward, and wants to go somewhere where he'll have more of a chance to contribute (and be closer to home). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No reason to hate on the kid - for his decision, OR for his family's reaction to it (which IS outside his control, btw).

I'm not insinuating anything about Derryck. Those are your words.

My point is that dealing with family like that isn't worth it. I realize Derryck is 18, but he can certainly tell his uncle to chill.

This obviously was something his uncle has been waiting to unleash for awhile now. I'd be sure to make it crystal clear that his opinions were not Derryck's, even if they were.

Do you really think that twitter rant was the only time his family has griped?

Not hating on the kid at all - again, your words.

[wsb3]

Anyway, Thornton played all 36 of Duke's games and averaged 26.0 minutes. He did not start the last five games but still played the majority of the minutes: 19, 22, 24, 23, 23. It kinda sounds like he never unpacked his bags. I liked Derryck and liked his game; I am sorry he is not returning.

Good post.

[wavedukefan70s]

Sounds like a sour grape twitter rant fest.i wish the best for D.T.
After a few days the uncles 15 minutes will be up and the tweets will go unnoticed.
I did see a tweet from adam rowe that said.duke had been trying to keep him there all year.so this probably wasnt a new development. Just new for the casual fan.

[stillcrazie]

Scheyer is the perfect person to coach a 2 guard playing the point. The question is: Who is the best candidate? Can Matt learn to set up the rest of the team? He'll be a senior with a title under his belt. We won't miss an offensive point drop off from him as much as we would from Grayson or Luke. Is there a Scheyer 2.0 in the rough, waiting to step into that role?

[BeachBlueDevil]

Sounds like a sour grape twitter rant fest.i wish the best for D.T.
After a few days the uncles 15 minutes will be up and the tweets will go unnoticed.
I did see a tweet from adam rowe that said.duke had been trying to keep him there all year.so this probably wasnt a new development. Just new for the casual fan.

Big time sour grapes, I just read it. I'd guarantee most of his family feel this way, just this uncle said something publicly about. Not having DT won't be a big factor for this team. He has potential and I hope wherever he transfers, his uncle approves.

[-jk]

I still think Derryck's biggest issue this year was an inability to play his "A" game for more than about 20 minutes a game...

And I have no idea how to increase it other than playing more games and getting more automatic.

-jk

[Furniture]

Sounds like his family was disgruntled from the start. If they had been more patient DT may have played even better. Who knows what sort of pressure that put on him? Good luck to Derryck!

Anyway. To take everyone's mind of this take a look at this plumfam!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BECnxEeEMvC/

[FerryFor50]

I still think Derryck's biggest issue this year was an inability to play his "A" game for more than about 20 minutes a game...

And I have no idea how to increase it other than playing more games and getting more automatic.

-jk

Which likely would have happened at Duke with more experience and seasoning.

And coaching. But coaching can be negated when you have family/handlers in your ear telling you how you're not being used right.

[slower]

Scheyer is the perfect person to coach a 2 guard playing the point. The question is: Who is the best candidate? Can Matt learn to set up the rest of the team? He'll be a senior with a title under his belt. We won't miss an offensive point drop off from him as much as we would from Grayson or Luke. Is there a Scheyer 2.0 in the rough, waiting to step into that role?

Sorry, but I find nothing Scheyer-like about Matt. Can we stop trying to force that square peg into a round hole? I think we've pretty well covered Matt's strengths and weaknesses for the past month or more.

Without knowing much about Frank, I'd be inclined to think Luke might be the most "Scheyer-like" of our choices. But we shall see.

[westwall]

He's an 18 year old kid, not a PR savvy adult professional. What do you want him to do, publicly make a statement renouncing the "more vocal" members of his family? As an 18 year old kid, is he supposed to go to his uncle and tell him to shut up? Had the uncle even made any comments like this before today? Would Derryck even have known it was a possibility that his uncle would make those statements publicly?

I get saying his uncle is letting his emotions get the best of him and doing some things he shouldn't be. But to insinuate that that should reflect poorly on Derryck and somehow make Duke's staff not-so-sorry-to-see-him-go? Sheesh.

We all have a crazy relative(s). I hope the next time mine does something dumb that I don't get judged for it, or have people close to me thinking they'd be happy not to be associated with me anymore because of an hour or two of venting on twitter.

I think Thornton seems like a good kid who did Duke a favor (more so than the other way around) by reclassifying. Maybe that cost him some development that kept him from becoming the player he could have/should have been. Then again, maybe it didn't and it wouldn't have worked out for him and Duke regardless. Fact remains that without him this season, you guys would have been in even more dire straits for playable bodies. Now, it looks like he decided he wasn't K's 1-A plan at PG going forward, and wants to go somewhere where he'll have more of a chance to contribute (and be closer to home). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No reason to hate on the kid - for his decision, OR for his family's reaction to it (which IS outside his control, btw).

I agree with most of this. Derryck did do Duke a favor in coming early after Tyus surprisingly went Pro, for which we should have gratitude. But in coming early, but not early enough to get the pre-season work and bonding opportunities, Derryck was at a severe disadvantage that showed itself in his play on many occasions, and as his "starts" became erratic and his minutes decreased as the season progressed.

I had confidence that, with another full year to become comfortable with the system and his teammates. Derryck's game (handling, vision, etc) would improve dramatically, and he would become the point guard needed to run the offense next year all the way to, and through, the NCAA's.

However, my confidence suffered a setback on Saturday. I watched most (not all) of the Hoop Summit game and repeatedly heard the announcers refer to Frank Jackson as "Duke's next point guard", as if Derryck Thornton did not exist. Perhaps they knew what we only learned today.

In any event, thanks Derryck -- Godspeed, and good luck!

[FerryFor50]

Sounds like Jerry Meyer of 247 interviewed DT's "uncle" - who, as sagegrouse correctly pointed out, sounds more like he's his trainer, which makes it even weirder for him to go off like that.

According to the trainer, the issue was how DT was used in the offense vs what he was told in recruiting.

http://northcarolina.247sports.com/Bolt/Trainer-says-Mike-Krzyzewski-misled-Derryck-Thornton-44741462


"I was in Coach K's office when he told Derryck he would be used in a ball screen offense," Edwards told 247Sports' Jerry Meyer. "Looking at this year's team, I think he knew he wouldn't have the type of team to follow through on that promise. Derryck was in on 20+ ball screen situations this year, and in comparison (Providence freshman) Kris Dunn was in over 250+ situations ... to me, he was lied to."

So, for one, he didn't say that K promised DT would be the FOCUS of the offense; just that he'd be used in a ball screen offense.

Two, one of the primary ball screeners Duke had got injured in the 9th game of the season and Duke went on a small losing streak. The offense had to change to isolation with Grayson and Ingram to win games.

Meyer's take is more measured:


"I do believe Thornton came to Duke with unrealistic expectations of how he would be used in the offense," Meyer, 247Sports' Director of Basketball Scouting, said. "Coach K likely did overpromise, as is typical in recruiting. However, it became evident quickly that a high ball-screen offense centered around Thornton was not the best approach for Duke. He did get 26 minutes per game, but in those minutes shot only 39 percent and delivered 2.6 assists."

[dukelion]

It always amazes me that certain parents/extended family always seem to treat their kids like commodities.

His uncle had his pick and roll usage stats memorized? Pathetic. Probably was rooting against Duke when his kid was on the bench out of spite.

It's a shame because Thornton was a great prospect that I really enjoyed watching playing especially on the defense end.

But I take issue with everyone who considered him a true PG. DT was at his best when he was attacking the rim and especially with his pull-up jumpshot. He never really seemed like a pass first PG to me.

Unfortunately for him his shot was off more than it was on this year which quite often led to some fastbreaks the other way.

Anyways....best of luck to the kid....we'll be fine

[tteettimes]

DT is a GOOD kid.....best to him
However.....we do not want anyone on OUR team that doesn't want to be !!

[Dukehky]

Sounds like Jerry Meyer of 247 interviewed DT's "uncle" - who, as sagegrouse correctly pointed out, sounds more like he's his trainer, which makes it even weirder for him to go off like that.

According to the trainer, the issue was how DT was used in the offense vs what he was told in recruiting.

http://northcarolina.247sports.com/Bolt/Trainer-says-Mike-Krzyzewski-misled-Derryck-Thornton-44741462



So, for one, he didn't say that K promised DT would be the FOCUS of the offense; just that he'd be used in a ball screen offense.

Two, one of the primary ball screeners Duke had got injured in the 9th game of the season and Duke went on a small losing streak. The offense had to change to isolation with Grayson and Ingram to win games.

Meyer's take is more measured:

Especially once Amile went down. DT and Amile worked well, would have made things better for everyone had he stayed healthy.

[FerryFor50]

I agree with most of this. Derryck did do Duke a favor in coming early after Tyus surprisingly went Pro, for which we should have gratitude. But in coming early, but not early enough to get the pre-season work and bonding opportunities, Derryck was at a severe disadvantage that showed itself in his play on many occasions, and as his "starts" became erratic and his minutes decreased as the season progressed.

I had confidence that, with another full year to become comfortable with the system and his teammates. Derryck's game (handling, vision, etc) would improve dramatically, and he would become the point guard needed to run the offense next year all the way to, and through, the NCAA's.

However, my confidence suffered a setback on Saturday. I watched most (not all) of the Hoop Summit game and repeatedly heard the announcers refer to Frank Jackson as "Duke's next point guard", as if Derryck Thornton did not exist. Perhaps they knew what we only learned today.

In any event, thanks Derryck -- Godspeed, and good luck!

Derryck came in early, but he also reclassified a level down in HS. So coming early meant he was coming in with his natural class.

Also, Louisville asked him to come early as well. And ultimately, it was DT's choice. It makes even less sense to come early if you're going to burn an extra year by transferring. Why not try to stick it out and learn how to do something other than "ball screen offense"?

I was in the same boat as you in terms of DT's potential - I really wanted him to stick around and was hoping something would change when I heard the transfer rumor a couple weeks ago. Too bad - hopefully he finds a good landing place.

[sagegrouse]

Derryck came in early, but he also reclassified a level down in HS. So coming early meant he was coming in with his natural class.

Also, Louisville asked him to come early as well. And ultimately, it was DT's choice. It makes even less sense to come early if you're going to burn an extra year by transferring. Why not try to stick it out and learn how to do something other than "ball screen offense"?

I was in the same boat as you in terms of DT's potential - I really wanted him to stick around and was hoping something would change when I heard the transfer rumor a couple weeks ago. Too bad - hopefully he finds a good landing place.

As some wise DBR leader said years ago (Julio or Bos or James) with respect to another player: "There is basketball, academics and social life." These are all separate. The latter two could easily have affected basketball -- it's not an easy transition coming in as a college freshman. Who knows what underlying factors were affecting his relationship with the team and his play on the court? I thought Derryck brought a lot to the 2016 team and would have liked him to stay and contribute next year.

[miramar]

From the guy who apparently knows more about basketball than Coach K:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4oNciAHBw

I'm sorry to see Derrick go, but he's turning 19 next month, so I don't think he missed out on his childhood in any way.

And based on the rants, I can certainly understand why the Duke assistant coaches didn't seem "friendly or cool" to his uncle or trainer or whatever he is.

This has nothing to do with Derrick, who would have done very well at Duke, but it's unfortunate because I'm sure that's not the way he wanted to go out. No matter what, I hope that he will have a productive career elsewhere, much as Silent G had at Syracuse.

[El_Diablo]

Post #44 and post #53 (when read together) pretty clearly identify the other shoe that will drop.

[Neals384]

One of Edwards' specific issues is that DT wasn't used in the pick 'n roll more often.

[throatybeard]

I'll really miss Tyler.

Someone probably made that joke five pages ago, but I'm not reading this whole thing.

Godspeed, young man!

[Scorp4me]

Take it for what it's worth. :rolleyes:

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2016/4/10/11402428/derryck-thornton-leaving-duke-kentucky-marques-bolden-recruitment

I swear, if K "begs" him to stay he looks bad. If he "kicks" him out the door K looks bad. I think it's obvious that K didn't kick him out the door. I also think it's obvious his family is being a typical family, thinking it's all about their child. Nothing new here and honestly nothing wrong, although the "uncle" comes off looking pretty petty. It's more a sign of the times than a sign of Duke or K or UK or any of that. Look at the number of transfers. There are no more Grant Hills in the world, it's mostly about me and me now more specifically. It's sad, but I think K's record speaks for itself. As for new coaches...just a rough time to be in a position of mentoring to young people.

[Troublemaker]

Post #44 and post #53 (when read together) pretty clearly identify the other shoe that will drop.

Is #53 even necessary? I think #44 can stand on its own and tell you everything you need to know.

[JMarley50]

From the guy who apparently knows more about basketball than Coach K:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4oNciAHBw

I'm sorry to see Derrick go, but he's turning 19 next month, so I don't think he missed out on his childhood in any way.

And based on the rants, I can certainly understand why the Duke assistant coaches didn't seem "friendly or cool" to his uncle or trainer or whatever he is.

This has nothing to do with Derrick, who would have done very well at Duke, but it's unfortunate because I'm sure that's not the way he wanted to go out. No matter what, I hope that he will have a productive career elsewhere, much as Silent G had at Syracuse.

"It's a quick shot, but a good shot." That explains a few things! I wonder if he does passing drills? My guess is no...

[BD80]

Post #44 and post #53 (when read together) pretty clearly identify the other shoe that will drop.

No. No they don't. The shoe in question is what roster spot will open up? We are currently full. Something needs to happen for posts #44 or #53 to be relevant. Thus, the tease.

[trinity92]

So sad to hear this news, even though there was a lot of background noise pointing to this outcome in recent weeks. DT showed flashes of greatness and I think his ceiling was very very high at Duke. Many thanks for all he brought to Durham and all the best in your future travels!

[gep]

I was very sad to read this morning that Derryck is transferring. I'm sad anytime a player is transferring. In most cases, playing time is a big component to the decision. But in Derryck's situation, I'm not sure playing time would have been a problem. I've seen and heard the brief "conflicts" between Derryck and the team... most notably Grayson during one game. And the rant from the uncle/trainer was quite interesting. And his statement that Duke "begged" Derryck to reclassify to go to Duke a year early... I don't think I can quite believe the strong implication. Well... time for "next play"... go forward :cool:

[BandAlum83]

From the guy who apparently knows more about basketball than Coach K:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4oNciAHBw

I'm sorry to see Derrick go, but he's turning 19 next month, so I don't think he missed out on his childhood in any way.

And based on the rants, I can certainly understand why the Duke assistant coaches didn't seem "friendly or cool" to his uncle or trainer or whatever he is.

This has nothing to do with Derrick, who would have done very well at Duke, but it's unfortunate because I'm sure that's not the way he wanted to go out. No matter what, I hope that he will have a productive career elsewhere, much as Silent G had at Syracuse.

Interesting. His academy is just down the street from me. Never heard of them. But of course, I never followed HS basketball.

[Owen Meany]

Allegedly his uncle.

Either way, it's a bad look.

If I were DT I'd distance myself from that toxicity.


He's an 18 year old kid, not a PR savvy adult professional. What do you want him to do, publicly make a statement renouncing the "more vocal" members of his family? As an 18 year old kid, is he supposed to go to his uncle and tell him to shut up? Had the uncle even made any comments like this before today? Would Derryck even have known it was a possibility that his uncle would make those statements publicly?

I get saying his uncle is letting his emotions get the best of him and doing some things he shouldn't be. But to insinuate that that should reflect poorly on Derryck and somehow make Duke's staff not-so-sorry-to-see-him-go? Sheesh.

We all have a crazy relative(s). I hope the next time mine does something dumb that I don't get judged for it, or have people close to me thinking they'd be happy not to be associated with me anymore because of an hour or two of venting on twitter.

I think Thornton seems like a good kid who did Duke a favor (moreso than the other way around) by reclassifying. Maybe that cost him some development that kept him from becoming the player he could have/should have been. Then again, maybe it didn't and it wouldn't have worked out for him and Duke regardless. Fact remains that without him this season, you guys would have been in even more dire straits for playable bodies. Now, it looks like he decided he wasn't K's 1-A plan at PG going forward, and wants to go somewhere where he'll have more of a chance to contribute (and be closer to home). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No reason to hate on the kid - for his decision, OR for his family's reaction to it (which IS outside his control, btw).

I'm completely puzzled by the entire first part of your post, since I read nothing negative in Ferry's post about DT at all - certainly not "hating".

For the record, I have never said a negative word about DT on this board. And I think he would have likely been Duke's starting PG next year given his experience and Jackson's seeming shoot-first mindset. I think his year of experience, and a summer to develop, would have made a world of difference. So I think DT will be a real loss. But I also believe there is some serious revisionist history going on here regarding DT's sacrifice.

Thornton's father did an interview after DT committed. He explained that the family had already spoken to Louisville about the possibility of reclassifying (to Thornton's original graduating class). He also said that Coach K said they would like to have DT this year, but would also be glad to have him next year. And that if DT did not come this year they would likely bring in a post grad (there were a couple of solid guys looking at Duke last year before Duke took DT, in addition to Jamal Murray). In fact, some fans preferred Duke take a post grad or likely OAD Murray so they could take Dennis Smith Jr. this year.

So I think its stretching things more than a bit to say DT sacrificed to come to Duke. He probably was happy to walk into a major role with the defending national champions and play under the greatest college coach perhaps in history. And I'm sure he saw it as an advantage to come to Durham one year ahead of Jackson. The kid averaged over 25 minutes a game for a top program despite the fact that, at times, he clearly played like a freshman (closer to Jeter than Ingram). So I believe DT and his family made a decision about what they thought was best for him (as they should), rather than sacrificing to do what was best for Duke. Duke was glad to have DT, but I am pretty confident Duke would have managed somehow had he decided to wait another year. There would have been another player ready to step in and make that great sacrifice themselves.

I wish this would have worked out for everyone involved. I think it is a loss for DT and for Duke. I believe that Duke will be favored to win it all next year, and the one weakness will be lack of a true point guard. For that reason I would think Duke offered the most attractive situation of any team in the country for a true PG. I think MANY top PGs would love to be in Durham next year. So its hard to imagine one transferring out.

Good luck to the young man and his family.

[Neals384]

Somewhere upthread it's stated that the issues between DT and Duke began to surface in January. let's look at DT's and Duke's January games. DT started the first four (BC, Wake, VTech, Clem). he averaged 26 minutes, 6 points, 3 assists and 2 1/2 turnovers and shot 30%. Not terrible, but in the meantime Luke K had big games against BC and Wake, and got the start for the remaining four January games (NDame, Syr, NCState, Miami). In those four games DT averaged 19 minutes, 5 points, 1 assist 1 1/4 turnovers and shot 44%. Meanwhile Luke had a huge game in the loss to ND, but was much less effective in the other three games.

Looking at it from a DT booster point of view, I can make a case that Duke was better with DT starting (3-1 vs. 1-3, never mind the quality of competition). And that benching him after the Clemson loss showed that the coaches blamed him for the loss. And regaining his starting role in February showed that the coaches had erred and needed to believe in DT and stick with him.

Not not that I agree with any of this, but I can see how DT (or butinski uncles) might view things.

[JMarley50]

https://youtu.be/McwxRH15f9M

I found another YouTube gem starring "Uncle" Edwards. If I were to walk into a gym and see my child (if I had one) being "trained" in this manor, I would be livid. 3 on 2 drill and they are pulling up from outside... Very little passing, laughing at them when they can't dunk. But hey at least they can buy some girl scout cookies if they get hungry. I feel sorry for DT if this guy was one of the people influencing his decisions.

[BandAlum83]

https://youtu.be/McwxRH15f9M

I found another YouTube gem starring "Uncle" Edwards. If I were to walk into a gym and see my child (if I had one) being "trained" in this manor, I would be livid. 3 on 2 drill and they are pulling up from outside... Very little passing, laughing at them when they can't dunk. But hey at least they can buy some girl scout cookies if they get hungry. I feel sorry for DT if this guy was one of the people influencing his decisions.

Are they supposed to be learning anything here? It looks like just random free time.

[MHNOLADevil]

Scheyer is the perfect person to coach a 2 guard playing the point. The question is: Who is the best candidate? Can Matt learn to set up the rest of the team? He'll be a senior with a title under his belt. We won't miss an offensive point drop off from him as much as we would from Grayson or Luke. Is there a Scheyer 2.0 in the rough, waiting to step into that role?
I thought all season long that Luke could become that lethal Scheyer 2.0 point guard. Scheyer 1.0 worked out petty well for us.

[JBDuke]

Folks, while Derryck's departure from Duke is fair discussion, hinting around at any other departures is not. Please keep in mind our Posting Guidelines about rumormongering.

[JMarley50]

Are they supposed to be learning anything here? It looks like just random free time.

They are running 3 on 2, 2 on 1 drill. From the looks of it, they had a lot that they could have been learning, but weren't. He was making some of them do push-ups as punishment, but I couldn't figure out for what exactly.

[Son of Jarhead]

I wish DT nothing but the best in the future. He seems like a good kid, and I liked his game, so I am sorry to see him leave. I think it is safe to say that we were a better team this past season with him than we would have been without him. I think he would have played a key roll next year. Whether he would have started or not, I don't know, but he would have been important if only for his excellent on-the-ball defense and his ball-handling. The kid has great handle. There is a reason that he always brought the ball up court when pressure was applied (as a good point guard should). The ball pressure he could provide would have made the rest of the defense work better. That is classic Coach K defense, and makes me certain that K tried to get him to stay. We'll make due next year on both counts as Coach K is the master of adjusting to his players strengths, and away from their weaknesses. Still, I think we'll see moments next year when it will be clear that DT would have be nice to have around. My read of the situation is that it sounds like DT liked it here at Duke but his dad was not happy. (nor, apparently, was his "uncle", the b-ball coach wannabe) But what is a kid supposed to do? Your dad tells you that you need to transfer, you're going to do what dad says, because... he's your dad. Even if you like it here, like your teammates, respect your coach, and want to stay, as an 18-yr old kid, you'll lower your head and say 'yes dad'. I feel for the kid, the sounds of the helicopter blades his dad has spinning over him all the time must be deafening. I hope DT finds somewhere that works out great for him and that allows him to grow and prosper.

[Skitzle]

The thought that Duke forced Thornton out is ridiculous. They didn't recruit 3 star jack white over DT. They recruited white because there was no way to keep DT.

Any connection between Bolden and DT is a lie. Feel free to say this when talking to UNC and UK fans.

[Steven43]

Ov
Neither Frank, Grayson, or Matt are the answer at PG for next season.

Oh yeah? Well, maybe not. But Thornton very likely would not have been the answer, either. So what's your point (no pun intended)?

Did you even watch the Oregon game? Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament and Thornton plays perhaps his worst game of the season while looking 100% scared in the process.
Exactly the opposite of whet a team needs from its point guard.

By comparison

[lotusland]

I'm sorry to see DT leave. It would have been fun to see him lead Duke as a junior or senior. I'm curious about the timing though - why wait with rumors swirling if his mind was made up?

Seems like Duke has had poor to mixed results with kids re-classifying. DT and Murphy transferred and Dre, despite some significant contributions, had some tough times. Small sample size but I think those Summer months may be pretty important for an incoming freshman to bond with his teammates.

[YmoBeThere]

Oh yeah? Well, maybe not. But Thornton very likely would not have been the answer, either. So what's your point (no pun intended)?

Did you even watch the Oregon game? Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament and Thornton plays perhaps his worst game of the season while looking 100% scared in the process.
Exactly the opposite of whet a team needs from its point guard.

Okay, just useless speculation now, but why wouldn't Thornton have been the answer? According to you, there isn't any answer to who should be the primary ball handler.

The phenomenon you note is not new and unique to Thornton, it is common as people move up levels and are at first overwhelmed by their surroundings. The key is to play in those scenarios, that is how you get better. It is mainly a mental adjustment. Bobby H. his freshman year comes to mind, he turned out okay in the end.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

For all the perks and glory, Duke is a very challenging place to grow up in. If any player (or any student for that matter) isn't absolutely certain he wants to be part of things here for whatever reason, he'd be better off someplace else. It takes a total commitment to make it at Duke. For that reason I'm never sorry when we lose a recruit or a transfer. The dues are pretty high.

Thornton, you are young and we hardly knew ye. But, I hope your smile is a little brighter and your step a little lighter after having made this decision. You're just getting started.
Love, Ima

[Troublemaker]

The thought that Duke forced Thornton out is ridiculous. They didn't recruit 3 star jack white over DT. They recruited white because there was no way to keep DT.

Any connection between Bolden and DT is a lie. Feel free to say this when talking to UNC and UK fans.

There are several layers of absurdity with the accusations. Recall also that many of us thought we'd be out of the running for Bolden when we learned that Amile would redshirt since that means we would've landed our big man (in the form of Amile) already.

If the difference between luxury and necessity were along a spectrum, I would say Bolden would be closer to the luxury pole. As such, he's not someone that -- even if we were lacking scruples -- we would force out our only PG to make room for, as you stated.

[sagegrouse]

Ov

Oh yeah? Well, maybe not. But Thornton very likely would not have been the answer, either. So what's your point (no pun intended)?

Did you even watch the Oregon game? Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament and Thornton plays perhaps his worst game of the season while looking 100% scared in the process.
Exactly the opposite of whet a team needs from its point guard.

By comparison


Okay, just useless speculation now, but why wouldn't Thornton have been the answer? According to you, there isn't any answer to who should be the primary ball handler.

The phenomenon you note is not new and unique to Thornton, it is common as people move up levels and are at first overwhelmed by their surroundings. The key is to play in those scenarios, that is how you get better. It is mainly a mental adjustment. Bobby H. his freshman year comes to mind, he turned out okay in the end.

I particularly liked Thornton because he was a "jet engine" on the floor -- he had a lot of speed with the ball and good quickness on both offense and defense. I believe he would have continued to develop in his time at Duke and eventually maxed his potential. Sorry it won't happen.

Yeah, Oregon was really, really good against Duke, which did not play anywhere near its best. Then Oregon totally laid an egg against Oklahoma, who then proceeded to "dog gack" the Final Four in record fashion against Villanova. Oh yeah, and what happened to Virginia, who had a 16-point lead against a Syracuse team that had to use a booster chair to get in the NCAAs? Well, strange things happen in the NCAA tournament -- and Duke, Oregon, Oklahoma and Virginia can support that notion.

[gumbomoop]

For all the perks and glory, Duke is a very challenging place to grow up in. If any player (or any student for that matter) isn't absolutely certain he wants to be part of things here for whatever reason, he'd be better off someplace else. It takes a total commitment to make it at Duke. For that reason I'm never sorry when we lose a recruit or a transfer. The dues are pretty high.

Thornton, you are young and we hardly knew ye. But, I hope your smile is a little brighter and your step a little lighter after having made this decision. You're just getting started.
Love, Ima

A very sensible post. Thanks.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I enjoyed watching DT play and though I was frustrated with him at times, I thought he showed signs of promise and appreciate his contribution to the team. With a summer on campus and a year in the program behind him, I thought that he could make a major leap next year.

I am very curious to see where he ends up and if it is a team that runs a style that is more along the lines of which his advisors think is best for him. I recall Coach K saying repeatedly that one of the keys to the success of the 2015 team was that beyond an incredibly talented team, there was a great group of families beyond those players who showed a lot of enthusiasm and really bought into the system. As much as I liked DT, if his family did not want him to be there, then he should move on. I'm all for standing up for your family member, but having behind the scenes doubting does not help anyone. We have had examples of this in the past and it generally didn't work out well for anyone involved.

[hudlow]

DT can pick his friends, but he is stuck with his family.

He appears to be a good kid with good potential. I hope his uncle's presence doesn't diminish his chances of going to another top level program.

Good luck to him.

Next Play

Go Duke.

[Steven43]

Don't forget Kennard. 5 perimeter players, 4 of whom can create, should be fine. As I wrote upthread, the real loss is junior Derryck Thornton.
But it's not a real loss if Duke scrambles and lands a pretty good playmaking, pass-first PG (which Derryck absolutely was NOT) prospect in the 2017 class or if Jackson or even Grayson develops into same.

There is no reason to think neither of those two is capable of developing into a good college PG. And if it's Grayson, who's to say he would not stay for his senior year to continuing working on his PG skills before trying the NBA draft? If he ends up deciding that PG--or at least a combo guard--is his only realistic option of making it long-term in the NBA, then he might definitely need two years of working on it while staying at Duke.

Grayson is not some super-elite, obviously-NBA-ready-talent who should clearly leave early. There is no reason to think he will not stay four years at Duke. The same might be said for Frank Jackson.

[Edouble]

I'm sorry to see DT leave. It would have been fun to see him lead Duke as a junior or senior. I'm curious about the timing though - why wait with rumors swirling if his mind was made up?

Seems like Duke has had poor to mixed results with kids re-classifying. DT and Murphy transferred and Dre, despite some significant contributions, had some tough times. Small sample size but I think those Summer months may be pretty important for an incoming freshman to bond with his teammates.

A lot of Dre's tough times were predicated on a traumatic life event though, one that occurred during December of his freshman year. Whatever he could have done during those summer months might have been thrown out at that point anyway.

He still recovered enough to make it onto the floor with the Miami Heat. Despite the fact that he never averaged 20 points/game, he did win an NC, he got his degree and he made it to the pros. I consider Andre to be a huge Duke success story.

[kAzE]

But it's not a real loss if Duke scrambles and lands a pretty good playmaking, pass-first PG (which Derryck absolutely was NOT) prospect in the 2017 class or if Jackson or even Grayson develops into same.

There is no reason to think neither of those two is capable of developing into a good college PG. And if it's Grayson, who's to say he would not stay for his senior year to continuing working on his PG skills before trying the NBA draft? If he ends up deciding that PG--or at least a combo guard--is his only realistic option of making it long-term in the NBA, then he might definitely need two years of working on it while staying at Duke.

Grayson is not some super-elite, obviously-NBA-ready-talent who should clearly leave early. There is no reason to think he will not stay four years at Duke. The same might be said for Frank Jackson.

Man, I could not disagree with that sentence more. Derryck was an 18 year old kid last year. He was still in the infant stages of his development at Duke. Despite that, he already possessed the best handles and quickness of any Duke player I've seen since Kyrie Irving. He's going to become a wonderful point guard for whichever team picks him up. There's no doubt in my mind. It's only a matter of time. I'm very disappointed to see him go. I honestly think it's a bigger net loss to the team, even if we end up getting Marques Bolden as a result, especially for 2017-18 and and beyond. I believe an upperclassmen Derryck Thornton would have destroyed the ACC.

Also, this idea that Grayson needs to play PG is getting way out of hand. Why does Grayson need to be a point guard? He doesn't have elite quickness, ball handling/creativity, or the vision to do it at the next level right now. His best skills are spot up shooting and driving off the triple threat, both of which require him to play off the ball. He doesn't need to prove to NBA scouts that he can play PG, he needs to prove that he can play SG.

[SlapTheFloor]

I wish Thornton the best of luck. He seems like a good kid who had the potential to become a really good player. Based only on Twitter feeds, it seems like he's getting some bad advice both in terms of life and basketball. Duke will be fine without him. Hopefully he will be OK without Duke.

[Kfanarmy]

I particularly liked Thornton because he was a "jet engine" on the floor -- he had a lot of speed with the ball and good quickness on both offense and defense. I believe he would have continued to develop in his time at Duke and eventually maxed his potential. Sorry it won't happen... He certainly is quick. That by itself puts a certain amount of pressure on opposing defenses, but shooting and passing when you get there are pretty important skills for a PG. Hopefully he can land on a team that makes him the #1 or #2 scoring option. Not sure he'll develop a PGs passing ability in that situation though.

[elvis14]

Despite pretty much knowing that DT was going to transfer for a while now (DBR can't shut down Facebook) I'm still disappointed. I was really looking forward to watching this kid progress and was thinking that his Jr year would be incredible. I really liked DT's on the ball defense and suspect that we'll miss that the most next year. I have to admit that reading the tweets from his drunken Uncle make me mad. It's not really fair to DT because after reading the bridge-burning, inflammatory remarks from his uncle it's hard not to have some negativity towards DT.

As I was thinking about DT and transferring and what I saw from his game I had 2 thoughts. First I thought that he was given plenty of playing time and chances to show what he can do (and opportunities to take the starting PG role). Secondly I thought that at the end of the season that DT didn't shoot very well and that as much as anything cost him additional playing time. So, I went back and looked at our last 10 games and discovered that the stats support what I thought I saw. In this last 10 games he shot 35.3% and only 20% from 3 (and he only had 10 rebounds in 10 games). I saw DT struggle with this shooting but I also saw him struggle to flow with the offense. I can see where he could get frustrated there. At the same time I have to wonder if DT and his family are being realistic. I mean instead of sitting out next year he could be on the top ranked team and would continue to grow even if he doesn't get as much playing time as he wants. Playing 20 minutes for Duke is still more than playing 0 minutes for anyone else. And it gets us right back to what I originally thought about DT being great his Junior season. I think he's making a mistake but he's 18 and has a drunken Uncle in his ear. Sigh, good luck DT.



Date
Team
Min
Shooting
3 Pt
Reb
Assist
TO
Points


3/24
Oregon
23
1-3
0-0
0
3
3
2


3/19
Yale
23
1-2
0-1
3
5
1
2


3/17
UNCW
24
2-3
0-1
0
2
1
5


3/10
Notre Dame
22
2-6
0-3
0
4
1
6


3/9
NCSU
19
2-3
0-1
0
3
0
4


3/5
Cheaters
15
1-4
1-2
1
0
1
3


3/1
WF
37
2-8
0-2
2
4
1
6


2/28
Pitt
35
2-9
1-6
1
2
3
1


2/25
FSU
20
2-4
1-2
0
0
1
7


2/20
L'ville
34
3-9
1-2
3
0
2
7


Totals

252
18-51
4-20
10
23
14
43


Avg

25.2
35.3%
20%
1
2.3
1.4
4.3

[Steven43]

Man, I could not disagree with that sentence more. Derryck was an 18 year old kid last year. He was still in the infant stages of his development at Duke. Despite that, he already possessed the best handles and quickness of any Duke player I've seen since Kyrie Irving.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Thornton's handles are below average for a startling PG at an elite college basketball program. There were MANY times this year, particularly in his last game at Duke, where he could barely even control his own dribble when he wasn't even closely guarded. It was truly scary watching him handle the ball.

And he has not demonstrated anything beyond a rudimentary passing ability. He had almost no creative passes the entire year and even the seemingly safe passes were sometimes an adventure for him. When you compare his ballhandling and passing to that of Tyus Jones when he was a freshman at Duke it's an absolute joke. I have no idea how you could possibly think he was better in any area, except maybe quickness and jumping ability, than Tyus Jones was.

And I don't even want to get into the subject of Thornton's wildly inconsistent and unreliable shooting. In my mind this is definitely a case of addition by subtraction.

[kAzE]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Thornton's handles are below average for a startling PG at an elite college basketball program. There were MANY times this year, particularly in his last game at Duke, where he could barely even control his own dribble when he wasn't even closely guarded. It was truly scary watching him handle the ball.

And he has not demonstrated anything beyond a rudimentary passing ability. He had almost no creative passes the entire year and even the seemingly safe passes were sometimes an adventure for him. When you compare his ballhandling and passing to that of Tyus Jones when he was a freshman at Duke it's an absolute joke. I have no idea how you could possibly think he was better in any area, except maybe quickness and jumping ability, than Tyus Jones was.

And I don't even want to get into the subject of Thornton's wildly inconsistent and unreliable shooting. In my mind this is definitely a case of addition by subtraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRR_pJKwmc4

That's what I'm talking about, and your comments seem incredibly biased. Again, he's 18 years old. He's not even close to a finished product! There's really no need to bash the kid. I firmly stand by what I said: best handles of any Duke player since Kyrie.

[FerryFor50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRR_pJKwmc4

That's what I'm talking about, and your comments seem incredibly biased. Again, he's 18 years old. He's not even close to a finished product! There's really no need to bash the kid. I firmly stand by what I said: best handles of any Duke player since Kyrie.

That video is a look at DT playing free and easy, without over thinking things.

We saw flashes of it this past season, but I think the game was too fast for him at times. It will slow down for him eventually. Unfortunately, not at Duke. :(

[Troublemaker]

You guys are both correct. Derryck has a great handle AND he would sometimes puzzlingly lose the ball unforced. It's like a world-class bowler that throws a gutterball once every three games or so.

[Steven43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRR_pJKwmc4

That's what I'm talking about, and your comments seem incredibly biased. Again, he's 18 years old. He's not even close to a finished product! There's really no need to bash the kid. I firmly stand by what I said: best handles of any Duke player since Kyrie.

Really, Kaze? A high school highlight film as your supporting evidence? And you think I am the one who is biased?

Even I have great handles when I'm in my comfort zone playing against guys on my level or below at the YMCA. Thorton wasn't challenged in high school anywhere near like at Duke.

Some players simply do not handle well playing against higher-level competition, and the added stress that goes with it, and their game falls apart. And there is really no way to tell if this is going to happen to a player you're recruiting until he's put into the fire. If anything, Thornton was playing at a lower level after a FULL YEAR at Duke then he was at the beginning of the season.

I'm not 'bashing' Thornton. Just giving what I consider to be an honest assessment. I guess it's considered bashing if you don't agree with it?

[FerryFor50]

Really, Kaze? A high school highlight film as your supporting evidence? And you think I am the one who is biased?

Even I have great handles when I'm in my comfort zone playing against guys on my level or below at the YMCA. Thorton wasn't challenged in high school anywhere near like at Duke.

Some players simply do not handle well playing against higher-level competition, and the added stress that goes with it, and their game falls apart. And there is really no way to tell if this is going to happen to a player you're recruiting until he's put into the fire. If anything, Thornton was playing at a lower level after a FULL YEAR at Duke then he was at the beginning of the season.

I'm not 'bashing' Thornton. Just giving what I consider to be an honest assessment. I guess it's considered bashing if you don't agree with it?

I have pretty good handles at the YMCA, but I couldn't replicate what Derryck does in that video, honestly. He's just so fast with the ball and so tight on his crossover. Even in my younger years, no way.

But saying things like:


And I don't even want to get into the subject of Thornton's wildly inconsistent and unreliable shooting. In my mind this is definitely a case of addition by subtraction.

Yea, that's kind of bashing.

[Neals384]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Thornton's handles are below average for a startling PG at an elite college basketball program. There were MANY times this year, particularly in his last game at Duke, where he could barely even control his own dribble when he wasn't even closely guarded. It was truly scary watching him handle the ball.

And he has not demonstrated anything beyond a rudimentary passing ability. He had almost no creative passes the entire year and even the seemingly safe passes were sometimes an adventure for him. When you compare his ballhandling and passing to that of Tyus Jones when he was a freshman at Duke it's an absolute joke. I have no idea how you could possibly think he was better in any area, except maybe quickness and jumping ability, than Tyus Jones was.

And I don't even want to get into the subject of Thornton's wildly inconsistent and unreliable shooting. In my mind this is definitely a case of addition by subtraction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRR_pJKwmc4

That's what I'm talking about, and your comments seem incredibly biased. Again, he's 18 years old. He's not even close to a finished product! There's really no need to bash the kid. I firmly stand by what I said: best handles of any Duke player since Kyrie.

Bit of hyperbole in both your posts. Truth is somewhere in between. Closer to Steven43 this season; likely closer to kAzE in a couple years.

[OldPhiKap]

Really, Kaze? If anything, Thornton was playing at a lower level after a FULL YEAR at Duke then he was at the beginning of the season.



I don't think that is remotely true.

[kAzE]

Really, Kaze? A high school highlight film as your supporting evidence? And you think I am the one who is biased?

Even I have great handles when I'm in my comfort zone playing against guys on my level or below at the YMCA. Thorton wasn't challenged in high school anywhere near like at Duke.


Yeah, because Ben Simmons plays at your YMCA. That first guy who's ankles get broken in the video? Top 2 pick in the NBA draft this year. For the 3rd time: He's an 18 year old kid. And his name is spelled Thornton

[Billy Dat]

When I think about DT and this transfer, I think back to a Duke Blue Planet video (I briefly tried to find it but couldn't) from after a pre-season game where, baby faced and energized, he talked about how this was really the first time he had felt like part of a program. When you look at his Duke Blue Planet player page, he says he loves Duke because it's like a family.

Then, one considers the insider info of Adam Rowe (@BlueDevilLair) who says DT didn't want to leave, this was a conflict between his family and the Duke staff, etc. and you can't help but feel really bad for the kid.

Even if there's a third side to the story, it still paints the age old picture of the talented kid caught in the middle of adult business - the powerful Duke program and his family's vision of his future. He's been chasing the dream from place to place, regular high school to prep basketball factory to Duke and now to somewhere else.

It does seem that in the Coach K one-and-done era which is going on to its 5-6th year, if a kid can stay patient and continue to improve, there will be playing time as the years move along, no matter how many great freshman hit the shores. K trusts the vets, especially on defense.

One might argue that, based on the goals of his family, his best move would be the D-League. He could sign with whomever he wanted, pick the program with the best coaching, and ply his trade against what has become really excellent competition under the watchful eye of NBA scouts. That might be his best path to the NBA because, one might argue, that's going to be his eventual path anyway. Unless you are a first round pick, and there are fewer and fewer guys 21 and older who are first round picks every year, you are going to spend time in the D-League. I know that pessimistic, but if his family is looking at college as a pure springboard to a pro basketball career, I bet he'd be a higher profile prospect at this point if he went the D-League route rather than head out to some Pac 12 school where his family will get into the same fights with another coaching staff.

Good luck DT, I hope we see you in the NBA in a few years.

[SoCalDukeFan]

When you have an injury to a key player whose skills are not replaceable, then roles have to change. If Derryck's family are such basketball experts then they should have figured that out. Duke will be fine next year with or without him but he would have been a significant contributor his junior and senior seasons.

I have no idea as to how he was doing academically and socially. If he really like everything about Duke except for his role this year, then its very sad that he leaving. If there are other reasons, then maybe leaving is for the best for him. Of course if every freshmen left his choice of college because he was homesick or otherwise unhappy, the sophomore classes would be very sparse. I doubt if he will find a school that offers the same basketball opportunity and the academics as Duke.

Derryck has a lot of upside. While I think Coach K wanted him this year because he needed him in 15-16, he wanted him at Duke for his contributions in future years.

Best of luck Derryck

SoCal

[sagegrouse]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Thornton's handles are below average for a startling PG at an elite college basketball program. There were MANY times this year, particularly in his last game at Duke, where he could barely even control his own dribble when he wasn't even closely guarded. It was truly scary watching him handle the ball.

And he has not demonstrated anything beyond a rudimentary passing ability. He had almost no creative passes the entire year and even the seemingly safe passes were sometimes an adventure for him. When you compare his ballhandling and passing to that of Tyus Jones when he was a freshman at Duke it's an absolute joke. I have no idea how you could possibly think he was better in any area, except maybe quickness and jumping ability, than Tyus Jones was.

And I don't even want to get into the subject of Thornton's wildly inconsistent and unreliable shooting. In my mind this is definitely a case of addition by subtraction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRR_pJKwmc4

That's what I'm talking about, and your comments seem incredibly biased. Again, he's 18 years old. He's not even close to a finished product! There's really no need to bash the kid. I firmly stand by what I said: best handles of any Duke player since Kyrie.

I agree kAze. As my grandmother used to say, "Do not speak ill of the dead." Well, he isn't dead, but he's gone.

[Faison1]

I just took a look at the Trainer/Uncle's Twitter rant...whoa!!

Let me get this straight....you're going to accuse the US Olympic Coach of lying; you're saying that Jeff Capel, Nate James, Jon Scheyer are all uncool and rude; that future recruits need to avoid the Carlolinas.

It's a serious bummer for Derryck that he has people like this guiding him...

[Matches]

I think DT is going to develop into a heckuva player - I'm sorry it won't be at Duke but hope he has all the success in world wherever he goes.

The notion that he should have been heavily featured in the Duke offense last season, though, is one of the more absurd things I've heard in awhile.

[Steven43]

Yeah, because Ben Simmons plays at your YMCA. That first guy who's ankles get broken in the video? Top 2 pick in the NBA draft this year. For the 3rd time: He's an 18 year old kid. And his name is spelled Thornton

Oh, so you're one of THOSE people, huh? You just showed your true colors with that juvenile and cocky little remark about how to spell his name, as if I hadn't already spelled it correctly at least a hundred times during this past year.

[killerleft]

Ov

Oh yeah? Well, maybe not. But Thornton very likely would not have been the answer, either. So what's your point (no pun intended)?

Did you even watch the Oregon game? Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament and Thornton plays perhaps his worst game of the season while looking 100% scared in the process.
Exactly the opposite of whet a team needs from its point guard.

By comparison

Yeah, yeah. You should have seen Hurley in the 1990 National Championship game. He threw up and then sucked!!! Why did we keep the scrawny rat?:)

[-jk]

Guys, please keep it civil.

-jk

[kAzE]

Oh, so you're one of THOSE people, huh? You just showed your true colors with that juvenile and cocky little remark about how to spell his name, as if I hadn't already spelled it correctly at least a hundred times during this past year.

Wow, you seem unreasonably upset over someone having a different opinion than you in a public forum. Take it easy. The "Thorton" joke (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Factory_Head_Thorton)has been around for a long time. And no, I haven't been following your every post this year. Sorry.

[wavedukefan70s]

I think DT is going to develop into a heckuva player - I'm sorry it won't be at Duke but hope he has all the success in world wherever he goes.

The notion that he should have been heavily featured in the Duke offense last season, though, is one of the more absurd things I've heard in awhile.

I also think he could be a very good player.but i have seen family with thier own agenda ruin players careers.coaches will only put up with so much before they cut you loose.you become a problem.i have heard atleast 100 times .player x is good but parents family are headcases.its bad for the kid.
I had high hopes for D.T. at duke.
I hope for his sake. This isnt the start of a disastrous move.

[MChambers]

When I think about DT and this transfer, I think back to a Duke Blue Planet video (I briefly tried to find it but couldn't) from after a pre-season game where, baby faced and energized, he talked about how this was really the first time he had felt like part of a program. When you look at his Duke Blue Planet player page, he says he loves Duke because it's like a family.

Then, one considers the insider info of Adam Rowe (@BlueDevilLair) who says DT didn't want to leave, this was a conflict between his family and the Duke staff, etc. and you can't help but feel really bad for the kid.

Even if there's a third side to the story, it still paints the age old picture of the talented kid caught in the middle of adult business - the powerful Duke program and his family's vision of his future. He's been chasing the dream from place to place, regular high school to prep basketball factory to Duke and now to somewhere else.

It does seem that in the Coach K one-and-done era which is going on to its 5-6th year, if a kid can stay patient and continue to improve, there will be playing time as the years move along, no matter how many great freshman hit the shores. K trusts the vets, especially on defense.

One might argue that, based on the goals of his family, his best move would be the D-League. He could sign with whomever he wanted, pick the program with the best coaching, and ply his trade against what has become really excellent competition under the watchful eye of NBA scouts. That might be his best path to the NBA because, one might argue, that's going to be his eventual path anyway. Unless you are a first round pick, and there are fewer and fewer guys 21 and older who are first round picks every year, you are going to spend time in the D-League. I know that pessimistic, but if his family is looking at college as a pure springboard to a pro basketball career, I bet he'd be a higher profile prospect at this point if he went the D-League route rather than head out to some Pac 12 school where his family will get into the same fights with another coaching staff.

Good luck DT, I hope we see you in the NBA in a few years.
Definitely deserve sporks for this.

Am I the first one to point the one upside for DBR, if not Duke, in this instance? Fewer misspellings.

[CDu]

I don't understand why folks want to make this an either/or thing. It can be both:

1. Thornton is extremely talented, with the potential to be an elite ballhandler
2. Thornton is still quite rough around the edges, including his ballhandling

1. Thornton would have certainly been a useful part of the equation next year
2. Thornton was not necessarily (possibly, but not certainly) the answer to the team's lack of a PG

I'm sorry that, for whatever reason, Thornton felt it best for him to go play elsewhere. He will be missed. At the same time, I hope he finds what is best for him, and wish him nothing but the best.

I think the 2016-2017 team will have to make due without Thornton via a combination of Jackson, Allen, Kennard, and Jones. And hopefully we can find a transfer who could fill that void in the 2017-2018 season, along with a freshman option for that year as well.

[ncexnyc]

Ov

Oh yeah? Well, maybe not. But Thornton very likely would not have been the answer, either. So what's your point (no pun intended)?

Did you even watch the Oregon game? Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament and Thornton plays perhaps his worst game of the season while looking 100% scared in the process.
Exactly the opposite of whet a team needs from its point guard.

By comparison

And where were you for our final game in 2011?

Nolan plays great all year, but had his worst game of the season against Arizona. If it could happen to a senior, I'll certainly give a pass to a freshman who got caught up in the moment and played a poor game.

[Steven43]

Wow, you seem unreasonably upset over someone having a different opinion than you in a public forum. Take it easy. The "Thorton" joke (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Factory_Head_Thorton)has been around for a long time. And no, I haven't been following your every post this year. Sorry.

Okay, I get it now. I didn't realize your comment was related to the longtime and ongoing Thorton/Thornton joke. I'm sorry for reacting with excessive defensiveness.

[kAzE]

I don't understand why folks want to make this an either/or thing. It can be both:

1. Thornton is extremely talented, with the potential to be an elite ballhandler
2. Thornton is still quite rough around the edges, including his ballhandling

1. Thornton would have certainly been a useful part of the equation next year
2. Thornton was not necessarily (possibly, but not certainly) the answer to the team's lack of a PG

I'm sorry that, for whatever reason, Thornton felt it best for him to go play elsewhere. He will be missed. At the same time, I hope he finds what is best for him, and wish him nothing but the best.

I think the 2016-2017 team will have to make due without Thornton via a combination of Jackson, Allen, Kennard, and Jones. And hopefully we can find a transfer who could fill that void in the 2017-2018 season, along with a freshman option for that year as well.

100% agreed, and well said. I never meant to imply anything different. I was invested in to Derryck because of what he would mean to our team in 2017-18 and beyond. Anything positive that he could bring for next year would be icing on the cake. Especially his defense. We will miss that much more than anything than he could have potentially brought on the offensive end. It's extremely unfortunate that his inner circle disagreed with that role, because in my opinion, he would have been a star at Duke as an upperclassman.

[MarkD83]

I wonder if a contributing factor is that "Thornton" is hard to spell for folks on this board and with "Javier" (I won't even attempt the last name) arriving, we can only handle one hard to spell name on the roster at a time. I believe this is why Wojo went to take the job at Marquette, because we can only have one coach with a difficult name for the spelling impaired (BTW, that coach is Jon S. right now.) :)

[Steven43]

And where were you for our final game in 2011?

Nolan plays great all year, but had his worst game of the season against Arizona. If it could happen to a senior, I'll certainly give a pass to a freshman who got caught up in the moment and played a poor game.

You would appear to be making a fair point on the surface, but surely you feel, as I do, that Nolan's poor game against Arizona was almost assuredly related to the sudden reintroduction of Kyrie into the lineup, right?

How does that relate in any tangible way to Thornton's extremely shaky play against Oregon? It's not the same thing at all.

By the way, I feel confident that Duke would have beaten Arizona that day had Kyrie not returned to the lineup that season.

[redick4pres]

I don't know what Frank is capable of as a point guard at the college level. Grayson nor Matt have the strongest handle in the world, but that may not matter with the versatility on the rest of the line-up. I actually think entering the season, Luke is our best ball handler and has the potential to be our most creative distributor (I know G led the team in assists last year, but but I don't think anyone would deem G to be a "great passer," good, but not great).

With this roster, I'm not sure having a great PG is going to matter. I'm a little more bummed for 2016-2017, but if we get another Natty, or a really good shot at one, so be it.

My biggest PG thing is the ability to break a press with a dribble consistently, I thought DT was far, far better at that than Grayson and Matt, especially Matt. He's more used to it, having practiced on the ball for his entire career. Not the case with Matt and Grayson.

Not that you don't have a point here about DT being a better and more consistent dribbler of the basketball, but you break a press with good passing. Not with dribbling. Breaking a press with pure dribbling is fools gold because it might work 2 or 3 times out of 10, but the other times you dribble into a trap, etc. Good spacing and crisp passes will always break a press much more efficiently than dribbling through them. Just my two cents.

[luburch]

Not that you don't have a point here about DT being a better and more consistent dribbler of the basketball, but you break a press with good passing. Not with dribbling. Breaking a press with pure dribbling is fools gold because it might work 2 or 3 times out of 10, but the other times you dribble into a trap, etc. Good spacing and crisp passes will always break a press much more efficiently than dribbling through them. Just my two cents.

How you break a press really depends on the type of press. If it's man-to-man with no trap then everyone should clear out and one man should indeed dribble it up the court. If it's a trap, put someone in the middle and pass it to the open man. Having someone who can handle the ball under pressure definitely helps break a press though.

[redick4pres]

How you break a press really depends on the type of press. If it's man-to-man with no trap then everyone should clear out and one man should indeed dribble it up the court. If it's a trap, put someone in the middle and pass it to the open man. Having someone who can handle the ball under pressure definitely.

I agree, but most people and by people I mean coaches, would say that that's not truly a press. If they are full court man-to-man with no trap, they are just picking up early and yes, the other 4 players should clear down court and let the primary ball handler bring the ball up court. This can get tricky, which is what Duke will do from time to time. If it's not an all out press ala Battier pressuring the inbounds pass and trapping the corners, then some teams just pick up man-to-man (including Duke), but will sometimes run a second defender at the ball once it's in bounded and try to trap. This very rarely works to get a turnover, but it's more for slowing the pace of the game, which Duke does vs. UNC a lot.

And yes, for many types of presses, having a middle man to pass to and have him immediately look opposite from where the pass came from is the best way to break these presses. Of course you need good ball handlers, but the passes are what break the press.

And now that I've rambled on and on about something off-topic, I'd like to apologize. :)

[johnb]

I wish DT well. He has a lot of promise, and I'm sure he'll make some team very happy in the future.

One small addition to the apparent story: if I were a coach who had spent a lot of time and effort in helping a player, I'd be irritated. Publicly, of course, I'd say nothing but positive things. Otoh, maybe there are private issues from D's side that would change my view, such as a discomfort with Duke, etc. As it stands, it seems like he just didn't like the talent logjam at the guard position, with some concern that the offense wasn't suited to his style of play, and that seems unlikely to elicit a lot of sympathy.

But I'm not a coach, so I mainly see it as a possible problem for 2017-8, by which time we'll likely have another star ready to go--and he'll be happily rocking it out at another school.

I'm not sure how much I view him as part of the extended Duke family. Of course, he has sweated for the program more than I have, and he deserves inclusion if he wants it, but I have more visceral enthusiasm for the guys who go pro early than guys who want to go to school elsewhere. Having said that, Rasheed's openly strong feelings for Duke combine with his not having had a choice leads me to continue to be a Sheed fan. Who knows about DT, but I'll probably tune in to his next team just to watch his development just as I enjoyed watching Silent G perform for Cuse the last couple of years.

[ncexnyc]

You would appear to be making a fair point on the surface, but surely you feel, as I do, that Nolan's poor game against Arizona was almost assuredly related to the sudden reintroduction of Kyrie into the lineup, right?

How does that relate in any tangible way to Thornton's extremely shaky play against Oregon? It's not the same thing at all.

By the way, I feel confident that Duke would have beaten Arizona that day had Kyrie not returned to the lineup that season.

So you blame Nolan's poor play in the final game against Arizona on Kyrie's return. If that's the case then how do you explain the 24, Nolan put up in the previous game against Michigan?

And no, I'm not one of those who blame Kyrie for our loss against Arizona. There were a number of factors that led to our loss in that game. Williams going berserk in the 1st half, Seth getting hurt and missing most of the 2nd half, and Kyle going out in the 2nd half with a cut that for some strange reason the staff took forever to get under control.

[SoCalDukeFan]

In appears that when you take Thornton you get his extended family including the father and "uncle."

Do you think that his original decision to reclassify was his alone or the family's?

The "uncle" has severely knocked Coach K. Not the first family member to do so regarding a transferring player, see Chris Burgess. However I know that most in the coaching fraternity hold K in very high esteem. The coach that takes Thornton will be one willing to put up wth the family in order to get the player.

SoCal

[kAzE]

Here's a huge what if: What if Tyus Jones doesn't go one and done, instead coming back for 1 more year to lead the 2015-16 Blue Devils? He probably has a monster season, and gets drafted in the 2016 lottery this year due to this draft pool being one of the weakest in recent memory.

Derryck Thornton plays out his senior year of high school, makes all the All-Star games, and comes in with Harry, Jayson, and Frank as 1 of 4 top 20 recruits next year, where he wouldn't be expected to be a major contributor in year 1, and likely stays at Duke for 3-4 years, and becomes one of the best point guards in the country.

I certainly do not blame Tyus for going pro when he did. But what could have been . . .

[moonpie23]

And where were you for our final game in 2011?

Nolan plays great all year, but had his worst game of the season against Arizona. If it could happen to a senior, I'll certainly give a pass to a freshman who got caught up in the moment and played a poor game.


yeah, but there was an ENTIRELY different dynamic in that game.......nolan had been running the point VERY well up until then...

[Rich]

Here's a huge what if: What if Tyus Jones doesn't go one and done, instead coming back for 1 more year to lead the 2015-16 Blue Devils? He probably has a monster season, and gets drafted in the 2016 lottery this year due to this draft pool being one of the weakest in recent memory.

Derryck Thornton plays out his senior year of high school, makes all the All-Star games, and comes in with Harry, Jayson, and Frank as 1 of 4 top 20 recruits next year, where he wouldn't be expected to be a major contributor in year 1, and likely stays at Duke for 3-4 years, and becomes one of the best point guards in the country.

I certainly do not blame Tyus for going pro when he did. But what could have been . . .

According to this article (http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Trainer-says-Mike-Krzyzewski-misled-Derryck-Thornton-44741462),


Edwards' primary beef with Coach K involves how Thornton was used - or wasn't used - last season. Though he averaged 26 minutes of playing time per game, Thornton and his camp believed he would be featured in the pick-and-roll situations in the Blue Devils offense. However, the vast majority of those opportunities went to other players.

"I was in Coach K's office when he told Derryck he would be used in a ball screen offense," Edwards told 247Sports' Jerry Meyer. "Looking at this year's team, I think he knew he wouldn't have the type of team to follow through on that promise. Derryck was in on 20+ ball screen situations this year, and in comparison (Providence freshman) Kris Dunn was in over 250+ situations ... to me, he was lied to."

Presumably this issue would've come up at some point anyway. There's no reason to think that if he didn't reclassify he still wouldn't leave the program. It is what it is. Next play.

[BD80]

... Am I the first one to point the one upside for DBR, if not Duke, in this instance? Fewer misspellings.

I sense a challenge ...

Let me tell you this, as long as I have a keyboard with an amalgamation of letters, there shall be misspellings!

DT's "uncle" amuses me. I wonder how many questions poor Derryck has to answer about that tool when talking with potential future coaches. One would assume DT will be looking at top programs. What coach is going to bring in DT without checking the baggage? Coach K is renowned for his honesty with players and refusal to promise starting roles or even playing time.

[Eternal Outlaw]

When I think about DT and this transfer, I think back to a Duke Blue Planet video (I briefly tried to find it but couldn't) from after a pre-season game where, baby faced and energized, he talked about how this was really the first time he had felt like part of a program. When you look at his Duke Blue Planet player page, he says he loves Duke because it's like a family.

Then, one considers the insider info of Adam Rowe (@BlueDevilLair) who says DT didn't want to leave, this was a conflict between his family and the Duke staff, etc. and you can't help but feel really bad for the kid.

Even if there's a third side to the story, it still paints the age old picture of the talented kid caught in the middle of adult business - the powerful Duke program and his family's vision of his future. He's been chasing the dream from place to place, regular high school to prep basketball factory to Duke and now to somewhere else.

It does seem that in the Coach K one-and-done era which is going on to its 5-6th year, if a kid can stay patient and continue to improve, there will be playing time as the years move along, no matter how many great freshman hit the shores. K trusts the vets, especially on defense.

One might argue that, based on the goals of his family, his best move would be the D-League. He could sign with whomever he wanted, pick the program with the best coaching, and ply his trade against what has become really excellent competition under the watchful eye of NBA scouts. That might be his best path to the NBA because, one might argue, that's going to be his eventual path anyway. Unless you are a first round pick, and there are fewer and fewer guys 21 and older who are first round picks every year, you are going to spend time in the D-League. I know that pessimistic, but if his family is looking at college as a pure springboard to a pro basketball career, I bet he'd be a higher profile prospect at this point if he went the D-League route rather than head out to some Pac 12 school where his family will get into the same fights with another coaching staff.

Good luck DT, I hope we see you in the NBA in a few years.

D league has their own draft so I don't think he could pick his team.

[devildeac]

According to this article (http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Trainer-says-Mike-Krzyzewski-misled-Derryck-Thornton-44741462),


Edwards' primary beef with Coach K involves how Thornton was used - or wasn't used - last season. Though he averaged 26 minutes of playing time per game, Thornton and his camp believed he would be featured in the pick-and-roll situations in the Blue Devils offense. However, the vast majority of those opportunities went to other players.

"I was in Coach K's office when he told Derryck he would be used in a ball screen offense," Edwards told 247Sports' Jerry Meyer. "Looking at this year's team, I think he knew he wouldn't have the type of team to follow through on that promise. Derryck was in on 20+ ball screen situations this year, and in comparison (Providence freshman) Kris Dunn was in over 250+ situations ... to me, he was lied to."

Presumably this issue would've come up at some point anyway. There's no reason to think that if he didn't reclassify he still wouldn't leave the program. It is what it is. Next play.

Man, think about how bad this would be if K were driving a tractor...

:rolleyes:

Seriously, I liked DT's effort/talent/attitude a lot this year and I'm sorry he's leaving and will wish him great success (as long as he's not playing Duke ;)), but to "compare" him to a 2nd or 3rd team AA is pretty absurd/outrageous on so many levels that it leaves me nearly speechless/postless here. (Kinda like sagegrouse where the H in IMHO is almost silent here :o .)

[OldPhiKap]

According to this article (http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Trainer-says-Mike-Krzyzewski-misled-Derryck-Thornton-44741462),


Edwards' primary beef with Coach K involves how Thornton was used - or wasn't used - last season. Though he averaged 26 minutes of playing time per game, Thornton and his camp believed he would be featured in the pick-and-roll situations in the Blue Devils offense. However, the vast majority of those opportunities went to other players.

"I was in Coach K's office when he told Derryck he would be used in a ball screen offense," Edwards told 247Sports' Jerry Meyer. "Looking at this year's team, I think he knew he wouldn't have the type of team to follow through on that promise. Derryck was in on 20+ ball screen situations this year, and in comparison (Providence freshman) Kris Dunn was in over 250+ situations ... to me, he was lied to."

Presumably this issue would've come up at some point anyway. There's no reason to think that if he didn't reclassify he still wouldn't leave the program. It is what it is. Next play.

Presumably, losing Amile required K to alter whatever offensive and defensive plans he had before the season. But that's kind of a strange specific thing to focus on as a beef, no?

DT was sixth in minutes played, fifth in shots taken, and second in assists. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils That's a lot of burn for a freshman in the ACC, let alone at Duke. My guess, just looking at the chart, is that Luke won the minutes from DT -- Luke only played 25 more minutes over the entire season, but took 94 more shots (Luke shot 42% on the year, DT 39%). It's not like Grayson or Matt weren't going to play significant minutes in the backcourt, and Brandon and Marshall's (or Amile's) minutes have no impact on the guard spot.

Again, I really liked DT's game and looked forward to watching him run the point next year with all of the firepower we had. I wish him well, and feel bad if he or his family thinks it should have worked out differently. I go back to the letter Brandon Ingram released when he announced he was going pro, highlighting that K promised him absolutely nothing in regard to minutes or play. And this has been a constant refrain for decades, from many Duke players. I find it difficult to believe that the recruitment of DT was any different.

Best of luck, I hope he has a great career.

[Doria]

Well, I figured this was an all but done deal for several weeks, but I really liked all the freshmen, so I'm disappointed not to be able to see Derryck and his game mature at Duke. I am in the camp that thinks, despite some rough patches this season, he'll eventually become a great player. And I believe we will almost certainly miss his defense next year.

But I'll always be grateful to him that he came early when Duke asked, and I wish him well in all his non-against-Duke games for the future.

This chapter is pretty much in the past, so I see no need to hash over it. I'm still looking forward to next year, and it seems the staff has had every indication this would need to be addressed for a while, so I hope we'll be able to get a stop-gap measure, if the staff thinks we need one (specifically for the season after next).

[tdrake51]

I sense a challenge ...

Let me tell you this, as long as I have a keyboard with an amalgamation of letters, there shall be misspellings!

DT's "uncle" amuses me. I wonder how many questions poor Derryck has to answer about that tool when talking with potential future coaches. One would assume DT will be looking at top programs. What coach is going to bring in DT without checking the baggage? Coach K is renowned for his honesty with players and refusal to promise starting roles or even playing time.

Brandon just mentioned this in his farewell letter. If Coach K didn't promise anything to BI, I highly doubt Derryck was promised anything.

[porkpa]

I somehow feel that the Duke basketball program and to a lesser extent the university bears some blame for this whole situation. We(the coaching staff) coerced a young man who almost certainly wasn't ready for college, let alone basketball at its highest collegiate level to leave high school for college only because he served a need for us, not because it would help him or because he was ready for the situation in which he was placed.

[CDu]

Presumably, losing Amile required K to alter whatever offensive and defensive plans he had before the season. But that's kind of a strange specific thing to focus on as a beef, no?

Well, yes and no. Yes in that it is hard to say what the team would have done had Jefferson been healthy. And no because if your interest in a program is that they utilize your player so as to showcase his strengths, and said program says he'll be used in a way to showcase those strengths, then it definitely matters that he wasn't used to showcase those strengths.

This of course doesn't get into the issue of whether or not the player was ready for such a role, or whether it was best for the team for said player to play such a role. But I think it's abundantly clear that Coach K builds his team's identity each season after seeing what the player mix suggests. There have been many players over the years whose games didn't get utilized to their maximum at Duke - Burgess, Dockery, Randolph, Pocius, Elliot Williams, etc. come to mind - because the team needed something else instead, and those players just weren't good enough to force Coach K's hand at the time. Thornton wasn't the first to have this happen to him, and he probably won't be the last. Nor is this a phenomenon exclusive to Duke.

You simply can't run a team where every single player's skill sets are maximized. There is almost always a tradeoff involved. And unfortunately for Thornton, he was one of the folks who suffered this year.


DT was sixth in minutes played, and fifth in shots taken. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils My guess, just looking at the chart, is that Luke won the minutes from DT -- Luke only played 25 more minutes over the entire season, but took 94 more shots (Luke shot 42% on the year, DT 39%). It's not like Grayson or Matt weren't going to play significant minutes in the backcourt, and Brandon and Marshall's minutes have no impact on the guard spot.

I would say that being 6th (out of a 6-man rotation) in minutes played and 5th (out of 5 offensive threats) in shots was a tough pill to swallow. Especially since he was marginalized as a ballhandler as the season went on as well. Again, not that this was a mistake on the coaching staff's part. Thornton was clearly the least effective offensive player on the team (among perimeter players) last year. But if you have an expectation that your son/player is going to play a starring role, and that player ends up last among main rotation players in minutes and last among guys who can shoot in shots, that's a tough pill to swallow.

It's just a situation where the family's expectations were perhaps unrealistic given how far behind Thornton was to start the year after missing the summer. And on top of that, there may be resentment that more preference wasn't given to Thornton for coming early.

[timmy c]

We(the coaching staff) .
"We" -- whoa, you're apart of the coaching staff??? I doubt it.


coerced a young man
co·erce
Def: persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.
What the wanker are you talking about?

I hope this is an awful version of sarcasm, otherwise this post needs serious revision.

[kAzE]

I somehow feel that the Duke basketball program and to a lesser extent the university bears some blame for this whole situation. We(the coaching staff) coerced a young man who almost certainly wasn't ready for college, let alone basketball at its highest collegiate level to leave high school for college only because he served a need for us, not because it would help him or because he was ready for the situation in which he was placed.

Coerced is a strong word. Derryck and his family had to at least know that this was going to be a possibility given how young he is and how physical D-1 basketball can be. If anything, I thought he performed at the level he was expected to this year. If they thought he was going to come in and be the featured player in the offense as a freshman, that's just delusional. You don't see Chase Jeter's family up in arms. He's also a very young guy who was forced to play more than he was ready for due to situation. Both guys are very talented and should develop into great college players. It's just a shame that only 1 of them will be playing his best college ball for Duke.

[Billy Dat]

I somehow feel that the Duke basketball program and to a lesser extent the university bears some blame for this whole situation. We(the coaching staff) coerced a young man who almost certainly wasn't ready for college, let alone basketball at its highest collegiate level to leave high school for college only because he served a need for us, not because it would help him or because he was ready for the situation in which he was placed.

You can't get a little bit pregnant. The Duke Men's Basketball program is a big time business, right at the top of any conversation of college sports-as-business. I feel like assuming the position you are staking out is tough when the Duke program is as big time college sports as it gets and the University is aligned with that effort. That doesn't mean we cheat or are dishonest, but this isn't the Patriot League.

All that is to say, unless we have some evidence that DT's eventual Duke scholarship was threatened had he not decided to re-classify, or that his transfer is because he is being "run off" to free a scholly for someone else, we know the following:
-DT was age appropriate for the class he was in and was not the youngest kid on the team
-DT and his family were in reclassification discussions with at least one other school, Louisville, so we weren't the only school in the mix
-He averaged 26 minutes per game and was a regular member of the rotation for a Sweet 16 team, he was ready to play
-All accounts are that the coaching staff wanted him to stay
-His reason for leaving has nothing to do with his academic or athletic performance or potential, at least from the Duke perspective
-All indications are that he is leaving because his family (and perhaps DT himself) think he was ready for a lot more on-court responsibility and "usage"
-Duke recruits big time players every year, and loses kids to the NBA every year, so that idea that he is being "recruited over" with Frank Jackson or anyone else is hard to argue as you could argue we recruit over everyone every year.

Aside from giving him an opportunity to forgo his senior year of high school to become a rotation player and sometimes starter for one of the most high profile basketball programs in the country, I am not sure what Duke did that was wrong in the context of big time college sports.

[Doria]

Coerced is a strong word. Derryck and his family had to at least know that this was going to be a possibility given how young he is and how physical D-1 basketball can be. If anything, I thought he performed at the level he was expected to this year. If they thought he was going to come in and be the featured player in the offense as a freshman, that's just delusional. You don't see Chase Jeter's family up in arms. He's also a very young guy who was forced to play more than he was ready for due to situation. Both guys are very talented and should develop into great college players. It's just a shame that only 1 of them will be playing his best college ball for Duke.

I loved Derryck, but in complete fairness, I think your comparison to Chase illustrates a couple points. Chase was continually involved on the beach, even after he was pulled from a game due to a bonehead play or fouls. He (and Obi) was always cheering on the team, regardless of his personal time or success. Derryck had some bad body language and often seemed really derailed (mentally) by mistakes, sometimes compounding the initial one with another at the other end. I'm not saying he had a bad attitude, but he seemed disappointed, at the least, when calls went against him, etc. Chase is also very academically inclined, and I think he values Duke for more than basketball reasons, which might have made it easier to take on a developmental role. That's mostly speculation, but I think it's not a real stretch, and it just adds up to the reminder that everyone is different and looks for, or expects, different things and handles relative adversity differently. (And whatever the story is with family, I think it's fair to say Derryck's family wasn't really helping the situation.)

[CDu]

Coerced is a strong word. Derryck and his family had to at least know that this was going to be a possibility given how young he is and how physical D-1 basketball can be. If anything, I thought he performed at the level he was expected to this year. If they thought he was going to come in and be the featured player in the offense as a freshman, that's just delusional. You don't see Chase Jeter's family up in arms. He's also a very young guy who was forced to play more than he was ready for due to situation. Both guys are very talented and should develop into great college players. It's just a shame that only 1 of them will be playing his best college ball for Duke.

I agree, although I'll note that pretty much every recruitment involves some degree of coercion. That's just part of selling the program. Thornton wasn't necessarily planning on coming to Duke this year, but the coaching staff came and sold him on coming this year. I'm sure it was done with class and integrity, but there was undoubtedly a sales pitch made. If I recall correctly, the sales pitch was a big part of the last-minute push to seal the deal with Ingram (who wanted a PG on the team).

The family may have gotten the wrong idea, and felt that Thornton would be handed the reins of the offense. If that's the case, I can see why they are/were disappointed in the season and how Duke used Thornton.

It's unfortunate that he seems to now be losing a year of basketball in hopes of finding a place where he'd be better utilized. But, hopefully it's for the best for him.

[porkpa]

By using the word coerced I meant persuaded, nothing more, nothing less. On second thought perhaps the word "persuaded" was the word I should have used. By "we" I meant the entire Duke community of which the coaching staff was its means to attaining this young man to come to Duke before he likely was ready. If they had another point guard in the wings, they likely would have gone after him. I'm certain if they had a viable alternative to building a competitive team, they would have used it.
My point was and still is, that the needs of Thornton were quite secondary to the needs of our basketball program.

[OldPhiKap]

Well, yes and no. Yes in that it is hard to say what the team would have done had Jefferson been healthy. And no because if your interest in a program is that they utilize your player so as to showcase his strengths, and said program says he'll be used in a way to showcase those strengths, then it definitely matters that he wasn't used to showcase those strengths.

This of course doesn't get into the issue of whether or not the player was ready for such a role, or whether it was best for the team for said player to play such a role. But I think it's abundantly clear that Coach K builds his team's identity each season after seeing what the player mix suggests. There have been many players over the years whose games didn't get utilized to their maximum at Duke - Burgess, Dockery, Randolph, Pocius, Elliot Williams, etc. come to mind - because the team needed something else instead, and those players just weren't good enough to force Coach K's hand at the time. Thornton wasn't the first to have this happen to him, and he probably won't be the last. Nor is this a phenomenon exclusive to Duke.

You simply can't run a team where every single player's skill sets are maximized. There is almost always a tradeoff involved. And unfortunately for Thornton, he was one of the folks who suffered this year.



I would say that being 6th (out of a 6-man rotation) in minutes played and 5th (out of 5 offensive threats) in shots was a tough pill to swallow. Especially since he was marginalized as a ballhandler as the season went on as well. Again, not that this was a mistake on the coaching staff's part. Thornton was clearly the least effective offensive player on the team (among perimeter players) last year. But if you have an expectation that your son/player is going to play a starring role, and that player ends up last among main rotation players in minutes and last among guys who can shoot in shots, that's a tough pill to swallow.

It's just a situation where the family's expectations were perhaps unrealistic given how far behind Thornton was to start the year after missing the summer. And on top of that, there may be resentment that more preference wasn't given to Thornton for coming early.

We are in general agreement. And I think your last point likely hits the nail on the head. I would add that they may have overlooked/undervalued the fact that Grayson and Matt -- proven upperclassmen returning from a National Championship -- were going to be tough to knock out of the line-up. There are not many freshmen guards who were going to come in and knock them out of starter minutes last year. Which is why I would think DT's commitment to Duke was seen as a multi-year thing, not instant grits. I guess that's why I have trouble seeing his use in his first year as such a deal-breaker. He got plenty of minutes, and was developing nicely. If they really thought with Brandon Ingram coming and Grayson Allen returning that DT was going to be the feature offense, that's just hard to really fathom. And I have trouble believing that K ever said anything to the contrary.

[Jeffrey]

You don't see Chase Jeter's family up in arms. He's also a very young guy who was forced to play more than he was ready for due to situation. Both guys are very talented and should develop into great college players. It's just a shame that only 1 of them will be playing his best college ball for Duke.

It might be best not to assume. The times they are a changin'.

[miramar]

I somehow feel that the Duke basketball program and to a lesser extent the university bears some blame for this whole situation. We(the coaching staff) coerced a young man who almost certainly wasn't ready for college, let alone basketball at its highest collegiate level to leave high school for college only because he served a need for us, not because it would help him or because he was ready for the situation in which he was placed.

DT will be 19 next month, so if he is as good as Uncle Trainer believes him to be, then he would have been a far more effective player last year. He came to Duke at the same age as the typical freshman (or Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, and Kyrie Irving for that matter), and would have developed into an excellent player with a bit of patience. I am more than grateful for his contribution and wish him all the best, but you can't be the focus of the offense if you shoot 38.6% and have two absolute studs in the starting lineup that you have to feed.

The adults in the room should have taken a long-term view, but that doesn't always happen.

[CDu]

We are in general agreement. And I think your last point likely hits the nail on the head. I would add that they may have overlooked/undervalued the fact that Grayson and Matt -- proven upperclassmen returning from a National Championship -- were going to be tough to knock out of the line-up. There are not many freshmen guards who were going to come in and knock them out of starter minutes last year. Which is why I would think DT's commitment to Duke was seen as a multi-year thing, not instant grits.

I agree. I suspect that the Thornton camp probably saw a completely blank slate in front of them: no point guard to speak of, no returning impact players on offense, nobody to threaten Thornton for major touches.

It wasn't until Thornton arrived that it was clear that Allen and Ingram would be the stars of the team, with Kennard and Jones being prominently involved as well. That meant that instead of Thornton as the primary ballhandler/playmaker, there were 3-4 others who were as capable (and ultimately moreso) as Thornton with the ball in their hands. So instantly the envisioned scenario was unrealistic.

It also turned out that Thornton wasn't a highly effective player off the ball - not nearly so much as guys like Allen, Kennard, and Jones. That isn't surprising for an 18-year-old who has always had the ball in his hands. So, that made it tougher for Thornton once the team's identity was gelled.

Basically, had Thornton been able to arrive at the beginning of the summer, maybe things play out differently. But the rest of the guys had a 3-month head start in figuring out their roles, and it appears that by the time Thornton arrived an identity was setting that didn't revolve around Thornton's PG skills. Alternatively, if Thornton had come in a far more advanced player than he was, he could have forced the team to adapt to his skill set. But - as should be expected of any 18-year-old - he wasn't ready to take over the team.

It appears to have been a completely understandable - though unfortunate - series of events.