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View Full Version : How UNC guarded the final play vs How Duke defended UNLV in 1991



bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 09:49 AM
As I watched the UNC-Nova final play Monday night, I kept thinking how much different Coach K would have defended that last sequence. The 91 game vs UNLV came to my mind.

I haven't heard many in the media talking critically about how Roy and UNC defended the final play. I thought Roy made a lot of tactical errors in how to defend the final play so I put together a short 45 second video that contrasts how UNC and Duke defended differently. Duke had a lot more time to defend (12 seconds) than UNC, but the tactics Coach K used would have been very effective had UNC used some of the same strategies.

This is not to pile on to UNC. I thought they had a great tournament and fought valiantly. But, I don't understand why more people aren't talking more about the huge mistakes Roy made at the end. I read today that Nova had run the same play earlier in the tournament vs Kansas at the end of a half. I think the coaches at UNC made a huge blunder.

https://streamable.com/cdoo

devildeac
04-06-2016, 09:56 AM
We didn't play UNLV in 1992 :o .

(I think I know what you mean.)

Good thoughts on the matter, though.

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 09:59 AM
Thanks - got it corrected.

Avvocato
04-06-2016, 10:09 AM
There's a big difference in the game situations. Against UNLV, Duke led by 2. UNLV needed two to tie, three to win. On Monday night, the game was tied. UNC had to defend against any basket and can't foul. If you pressure too much up top, you leave yourself open to a lay-up, something underneath. You can't get too aggressive, because you don't want to foul, especially Archie. I guess if you have to leave someone open, you would rather it be a deep three. With that said, you want someone in his face. You don't want to give him a clean look. Plus, Greg Anthony had fouled out. That UNLV offense was leaderless at that time without Anthony. Archie ran the play to perfection. Just a different game situation, but I couldn't be happier how each turned out. I wouldn't change a thing.

OldPhiKap
04-06-2016, 10:35 AM
There's a big difference in the game situations. Against UNLV, Duke led by 2. UNLV needed two to tie, three to win. On Monday night, the game was tied. UNC had to defend against any basket and can't foul. If you pressure too much up top, you leave yourself open to a lay-up, something underneath. You can't get too aggressive, because you don't want to foul, especially Archie. I guess if you have to leave someone open, you would rather it be a deep three. With that said, you want someone in his face. You don't want to give him a clean look. Plus, Greg Anthony had fouled out. That UNLV offense was leaderless at that time without Anthony. Archie ran the play to perfection. Just a different game situation, but I couldn't be happier how each turned out. I wouldn't change a thing.

I think Avvocato hit the nail on the head, especially about not giving up a foul and letting Archie try to win the game with two shots from the foul line (and only needing one to drop). I don't fault UNC's decision. You could argue that the defender should have been further up towards the three point line, but the defender was effectively blocked out (IIRC) by Archie's defender crossing in front of him.

I'd love to find a way to hang this on Roy, but to me it was two really good teams and the team with the last shot won. I am obviously glad the heels lost, but they played a top-level game Monday night.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-06-2016, 10:47 AM
Another big difference is that in the last play of the UNLV game it was clear that Larry Johnson wanted no part in taking the shot. Jenkins was ready to pop set his feet and knocked it down.

tux
04-06-2016, 10:50 AM
I think Avvocato hit the nail on the head, especially about not giving up a foul and letting Archie try to win the game with two shots from the foul line (and only needing one to drop). I don't fault UNC's decision. You could argue that the defender should have been further up towards the three point line, but the defender was effectively blocked out (IIRC) by Archie's defender crossing in front of him.

I'd love to find a way to hang this on Roy, but to me it was two really good teams and the team with the last shot won. I am obviously glad the heels lost, but they played a top-level game Monday night.

I agree with this. Almost every team in the field would be able to at least get a shot up with 5 seconds left. You have to decide what kind of shots you want to prevent. UNC decided: 1) it wanted to take the ball out of the PG's hands (thus the help defense at the top of the key); and 2) they didn't want to give anything up at the rim (thus Brice J in the lane).

Even the best 3-point shooters are at, what, 40% from the 3-point line. Jenkins shot a 22-footer, so you're already bringing the chances of that shot connecting down...

The problem for UNC was how Jenkins was able to shoot it in rhythm, moving into the shot as opposed to coming off a screen and trying to square up with time running down. But if they guard Jenkins out to 25 feet, they really run the risk of the PG getting a much closer opportunity in the lane. I guess when Roy looked up and saw one of Villanova's best shooters inbounding the ball, that should have been a red flag but V still had other options out of that play. Hindsight is 20/20.

K rolled the dice in 2010 missing that FT, but the basketball gods smiled on Duke that night. Not comparing a half court shot with Jenkins shot, but both were really good looks in the context of the game and time remaining. If Hayward's shot had fallen, K would still be getting questioned about the wisdom of that move.

dukebluesincebirth
04-06-2016, 11:01 AM
I agree with this. Almost every team in the field would be able to at least get a shot up with 5 seconds left. You have to decide what kind of shots you want to prevent. UNC decided: 1) it wanted to take the ball out of the PG's hands (thus the help defense at the top of the key); and 2) they didn't want to give anything up at the rim (thus Brice J in the lane).

Even the best 3-point shooters are at, what, 40% from the 3-point line. Jenkins shot a 22-footer, so you're already bringing the chances of that shot connecting down...

The problem for UNC was how Jenkins was able to shoot it in rhythm, moving into the shot as opposed to coming off a screen and trying to square up with time running down. But if they guard Jenkins out to 25 feet, they really run the risk of the PG getting a much closer opportunity in the lane. I guess when Roy looked up and saw one of Villanova's best shooters inbounding the ball, that should have been a red flag but V still had other options out of that play. Hindsight is 20/20.

K rolled the dice in 2010 missing that FT, but the basketball gods smiled on Duke that night. Not comparing a half court shot with Jenkins shot, but both were really good looks in the context of the game and time remaining. If Hayward's shot had fallen, K would still be getting questioned about the wisdom of that move.

Also, when Archidiacano handed it off to Jenkins, he did a crafty little slide in front of Jenkins to create just enough space to get the shot off. Smart move, and it worked! Hicks did get a hand up, but only from a couple feet away, which is different than getting a hand right in the face and/or possibly blocking the shot. As with the rest of this game, I give Nova all the credit for making a heady play under pressure, executing, and hitting the shot. I don't fault roy's defensive strategy...the best defense can't stop perfect offensive execution (see Steph Curry).

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 11:03 AM
Very valid points. I just don't understand Johnson's placement. If he is standing in the backcourt (at the time of the inbounds) at the top of the key and retreating with Arch, he can prevent Arch from driving and then step up to contest Jenkins shot.

If Arch somehow gets by Berry and Johnson, Johnson is still right beside him as he drives to the basket to contest. I would rather have that shot than a wide open 3. Hoping Jenkins misses is not the strategy I would take. The ref would have never called a foul in that situation unless Johnson just slams into him hard.

With Johnson up top, there is A LOT more congestion. Instead with Johnson in the paint, Nova gets a 3 on 2 up top.

On the inbounds if they deny Arch with Berry in front and Johnson behind, another Nova guard has to bring the ball up and not Arch who is their best passer and one of the best shooters.

tbyers11
04-06-2016, 11:03 AM
There's a big difference in the game situations. Against UNLV, Duke led by 2. UNLV needed two to tie, three to win. On Monday night, the game was tied. UNC had to defend against any basket and can't foul. If you pressure too much up top, you leave yourself open to a lay-up, something underneath. You can't get too aggressive, because you don't want to foul, especially Archie. I guess if you have to leave someone open, you would rather it be a deep three. With that said, you want someone in his face. You don't want to give him a clean look. Plus, Greg Anthony had fouled out. That UNLV offense was leaderless at that time without Anthony. Archie ran the play to perfection. Just a different game situation, but I couldn't be happier how each turned out. I wouldn't change a thing.

I agree that pressuring too much in the back court could give up an easier percentage layup or lead to a foul so I don't fault Roy for the initial scheme that he drew up. However, I do fault either his instructions on how to react or his players (Johnson or Hicks whichever was supposed to guard Jenkins) for their execution. Johnson never leaving the paint doesn't make sense when there was not a man anywhere near the paint for him to guard. If he was guarding Ochefu he could at least come out to the three point line and help on Arch. Ochefu wasn't going to roll to the paint after setting the screen near halfcourt.

If he was guarding Jenkins and Hicks was on Ochefu (as it seemed to me) then he had really poor defense. He didn't have to guard Jenkins on the inbound or pick him up full court but he had to be aware of him so that he doesn't get an wide open shot. Jenkins 3 wasn't a "deep" prayer. It appeared within NBA range to me. At some point Johnson has to be aware of the time and realize that Arch wasn't going to make it all the way deep inside the paint and provide help. It wasn't as if Johnson chose between giving up a short 2 point shot and Jenkins 3 because there was no one in the paint for him to guard. Johnson stayed anchored in the paint the entire time while I don't think a Nova player was inside the paint for the 4.7 seconds and he did nothing to influence the play except grab the ball after it went through the net.

Tripping William
04-06-2016, 11:16 AM
Yesterday, I asked similar question, a fair bit more vociferously, here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37727-NCAAT-Final-Two-Villanova-and-Them&p=877061#post877061). As I re-review the replay, the two things that continue to trouble me the most are (a) that Jenkins encounters absolute zero defensive resistance from anyone, like, ever; and (b) that Hicks is guarding Ochefu out to 3/4-court (fronting him to begin with), and only peels back (in time for Berry to obstruct him) after Arcidiacono has passed the Ocehfu half-screen at half-court. Is Ochefu such a good passer, even at 6'11", that they are worried about him tossing a hit-ahead to Hart or Booth?

Two other things that caught my eye: (1) Johnson really was nowhere to be found through the course of the entire play; and (2) Booth was also really open, on the right wing, having come off a Hart soft-screen on Paige.

I get it: It's a bang-bang basketball play with rather little time. I just don't think the tactical scheme was anywhere near optimal.

Jeffrey
04-06-2016, 11:31 AM
IMO, UConn guarded the final play better in 1999. However, sometimes, what happens on the court is not what happened on the playboard.

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 11:41 AM
Yes! Why deny Ochefu? It puts Hicks in a bad position. Let Ochefu catch it. I can see denying Ochefu if you are also denying Arch. Berry should also have kept the ball from going middle and forced it down the sideline (Hicks was on that side of Ochefu as well). When it went middle, Roys strategy of Johnson standing in the paint picking his nose really hurt him.

I would have denied Arch, left Ochefu open, had the man guarding Jenkins at the top of the key to help if Nova hit to Ochefu and then hit Arch streaking (because Arch was being denied by Berry).

Has anyone seen an interview where Roy was asked about his strategy on the final play?

sammy3469
04-06-2016, 12:01 PM
The part of the play they screwed up was Hicks being so passive on the Ochefu pick especially with Berry getting turned around. He has to at least show there to at least make Archidianco slow his momentum. Once he didn't do that, they had both Hicks and Berry out of position and had basically some type of good shot for themselves as there were only 3 UNC's guys in good defensive positions versus 4 Nova guys in good offensive positions. The other point to note is that Hart's also open in the same general area after Jackson goes under (notice a pattern here) Booth pick on the right side. If Johnson's guarding the lane, UNC had to show off those picks in this situation.

If you look at the Duke-UNLV tape, UNLV tries to set a similar pick, but Grant is able to go over the initial (badly set pick) and Laettner's in perfect defensive help position on the second pick since Ackles isn't going to shoot out there.

CDu
04-06-2016, 12:02 PM
I agree with those who don't think this was a Roy Williams strategic mistake, but rather a mistake by the players (likely one player). You can't foul, so basically what you want to do is slow the possession just enough to force a contested, rushed shot. And the Heels did just that, minus having someone to contest the shot. But again, I think that was likely a player error (see below):

One of Johnson and Hicks seems to have made a mental mistake there. My guess is that it was Hicks, who should have been guarding Jenkins. I think this for a few reasons:
1. There is really no point in guarding Ochefu at half court if Berry isn't going to front Arcidiacono. If Berry is denying Arcidiacono the inbounds, then fronting Ochefu makes sense to prevent the "pass to the big man at midcourt who then hands it off to the star guard with a head of steam" from happening. But Berry isn't fronting Arcidiacono (which makes sense if you're trying to apply light pressure while not fouling). Thus, Hicks' defense of Ochefu makes no sense.
2. Ochefu at half-court is basically a non-factor, because he isn't going to make a play on the basket from there within 4.7 seconds. Which is why I suspect that Johnson was the man guarding Hicks. Johnson is playing "prevent" defense in case of any off-ball screening action amongst the guys who could potentially score at the other end.

Of course, it could also be that Hicks was assigned to Ochefu and Johnson was assigned to Jenkins. In which case, Hicks is just doing something a little weird, but not problematic, while Johnson was failing miserably in his role. But either way, that appears to be a mistake by the players rather than a strategic gaffe.

Now, what I don't know is whether Williams had a timeout available. If he did, and saw that something odd was happening before the inbounds in terms of who was guarding whom, maybe he should have called a timeout to correct it. If he was out of timeouts, then nevermind. And if he didn't realize that Hicks was going to decide to guard Ochefu instead of Jenkins, then nevermind. But if he had a timeout AND if he saw that Johnson was out of position in guarding Jenkins, then he should have called a timeout.

oldnavy
04-06-2016, 12:12 PM
I have heard a few pundits criticize Roy for the last play.

The major point being made is that during the whole game, Nova had difficulty on the inbound pass. They actually turned it over in the comeback sequence.

So the question was, why not put Johnson on Jenkins and force a contested inbound pass? Maybe you get another turnover and score to win???

As it played out, Johnson was guarding no one under the basket. In fact Hicks(?) who contested the shot had to come off his man to get a hand in Jenkins face.

No one was assigned to Jenkins... think about this for a second, NO ONE WAS GUARDING the second best 3 point shooter on the team.

This is just another questionable coaching decision made by the man who is smarter than all of us! But of course, Roy defended it by saying he got exactly what he wanted and they didn't advance the ball 40 feet on an inbound pass. Well... yea, I guess?? First, why would Nova risk a 40 foot inbound pass with that much time on the clock? Maybe a 20 foot uncontested pass, but 40 feet?? Second, if you are not going to guard the perimeter and stack your defense under the basket then you obviously leave the outside open, which is exactly what happened. So ok, if you wanted a wide open 3 pointer from Jenkins, then you got your play!!!

It would be a bad decision by anyone, but since Roy goes out of his way to let us all know how dadgum good he is, I think it is fair to hold him to a slightly higher standard than we do the mere mortal coaches.


(Sorry, but Roy annoys the *&$ out of me) He is quick to tell you how much tougher, smarter, passionate, yada, yada, yada he is than you or I.

There is a reason a growing number of his own fan base is tiring of his act.

oldnavy
04-06-2016, 12:16 PM
I agree with those who don't think this was a Roy Williams strategic mistake, but rather a mistake by the players (likely one player). You can't foul, so basically what you want to do is slow the possession just enough to force a contested, rushed shot. And the Heels did just that, minus having someone to contest the shot. But again, I think that was likely a player error (see below):

One of Johnson and Hicks seems to have made a mental mistake there. My guess is that it was Hicks, who should have been guarding Jenkins. I think this for a few reasons:
1. There is really no point in guarding Ochefu at half court if Berry isn't going to front Arcidiacono. If Berry is denying Arcidiacono the inbounds, then fronting Ochefu makes sense to prevent the "pass to the big man at midcourt who then hands it off to the star guard with a head of steam" from happening. But Berry isn't fronting Arcidiacono (which makes sense if you're trying to apply light pressure while not fouling). Thus, Hicks' defense of Ochefu makes no sense.
2. Ochefu at half-court is basically a non-factor, because he isn't going to make a play on the basket from there within 4.7 seconds. Which is why I suspect that Johnson was the man guarding Hicks. Johnson is playing "prevent" defense in case of any off-ball screening action amongst the guys who could potentially score at the other end.

Of course, it could also be that Hicks was assigned to Ochefu and Johnson was assigned to Jenkins. In which case, Hicks is just doing something a little weird, but not problematic, while Johnson was failing miserably in his role. But either way, that appears to be a mistake by the players rather than a strategic gaffe.

Now, what I don't know is whether Williams had a timeout available. If he did, and saw that something odd was happening before the inbounds in terms of who was guarding whom, maybe he should have called a timeout to correct it. If he was out of timeouts, then nevermind. And if he didn't realize that Hicks was going to decide to guard Ochefu instead of Jenkins, then nevermind. But if he had a timeout AND if he saw that Johnson was out of position in guarding Jenkins, then he should have called a timeout.

But Roy said straight up that he got what he wanted... coach speak? Maybe, but Roy usually doesn't hesitate to toss someone under the bus....

I think Johnson was were Roy told him to be. Roy didn't want a 2 point basket in the paint is my guess... which you can argue that you can't stop everything, and the odds are against making a 3 verse a layup.

But, I'm not cutting Ol Roy ANY slack... I just can't do it!

OldPhiKap
04-06-2016, 12:18 PM
I have heard a few pundits criticize Roy for the last play.

The major point being made is that during the whole game, Nova had difficulty on the inbound pass. They actually turned it over in the comeback sequence.

So the question was, why not put Johnson on Jenkins and force a contested inbound pass? Maybe you get another turnover and score to win???

As it played out, Johnson was guarding no one under the basket. In fact Hicks(?) who contested the shot had to come off his man to get a hand in Jenkins face.

No one was assigned to Jenkins... think about this for a second, NO ONE WAS GUARDING the second best 3 point shooter on the team.

This is just another questionable coaching decision made by the man who is smarter than all of us! But of course, Roy defended it by saying he got exactly what he wanted and they didn't advance the ball 40 feet on an inbound pass. Well... yea, I guess?? First, why would Nova risk a 40 foot inbound pass with that much time on the clock? Maybe a 20 foot uncontested pass, but 40 feet?? Second, if you are not going to guard the perimeter and stack your defense under the basket then you obviously leave the outside open, which is exactly what happened. So ok, if you wanted a wide open 3 pointer from Jenkins, then you got your play!!!

It would be a bad decision by anyone, but since Roy goes out of his way to let us all know how dadgum good he is, I think it is fair to hold him to a slightly higher standard than we do the mere mortal coaches.


(Sorry, but Roy annoys the *&$ out of me) He is quick to tell you how much tougher, smarter, passionate, yada, yada, yada he is than you or I.

There is a reason a growing number of his own fan base is tiring of his act.

although Jenkins may be second in percentage, I am pretty sure he led the team in attempts all season. So no one should have been surprised. The defender was not up on him though, and Arch was able to drive between Kris and the defender and just flip him the ball.

szstark
04-06-2016, 12:19 PM
I think Hicks said in an interview that it was his fault. Jenkins was his man to guard and he decided to help stop the ball instead of staying with his man. I thought it was very mature of him to admit the mistake and take the blame.

oakroom
04-06-2016, 12:21 PM
See also (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/05/villanova_s_kris_jenkins_was_wide_open_because_bri ce_johnson_was_under_the.html)

Tom B.
04-06-2016, 12:23 PM
Very valid points. I just don't understand Johnson's placement. If he is standing in the backcourt (at the time of the inbounds) at the top of the key and retreating with Arch, he can prevent Arch from driving and then step up to contest Jenkins shot.

If Arch somehow gets by Berry and Johnson, Johnson is still right beside him as he drives to the basket to contest. I would rather have that shot than a wide open 3. Hoping Jenkins misses is not the strategy I would take. The ref would have never called a foul in that situation unless Johnson just slams into him hard.

With Johnson up top, there is A LOT more congestion. Instead with Johnson in the paint, Nova gets a 3 on 2 up top.

Apparently Roy put Johnson back as a free safety to guard against a home run play by Villanova. Remember, Villanova had successfully executed a home run play in its rout of Oklahoma -- I guess it stuck in Roy's mind.

But yeah, there were plenty of question marks about the way Roy defended that final play. For starters, if you're not going to defend the inbounds man, why not double Arch in the backcourt to deny him the ball? Or let him catch it, then pinch him with two defenders to slow him down and maybe make him give up the ball? Or wait until he gets across halfcourt, then bring in the extra defender to trap him? There were lots of options, and Roy chose none of them. Instead, they let Arch catch the ball on the run and advance it into the frontcourt with little resistance, almost all the way to the three-point line, where he could then make the shoot-drive-pass read.

Someone else mentioned the crafty move that Arch made after he passed, when he kept moving and slid by in front of Jenkins. I noticed that too -- he obstructed Hicks' closeout by a split second (it also looked like Hicks and Berry bumped and got momentarily tangled), while making sure not to make actual contact with Hicks, which gave Jenkins just a little more space to get the shot off. It was a heady, senior move.

And just to rub a little more salt in Carolina's wounds, consider this -- when Ochefu set the screen for Arch near midcourt, he effectively took himself out of the play. So with all their defenders in the frontcourt, Carolina actually had a 5-on-4 numbers advantage. And they still couldn't defend the play.

jimsumner
04-06-2016, 12:27 PM
Vegas had a lot more time in '91. A lot more.

Apples and oranges, IMO.

Johnson had a wide-open 3 in '91. The consensus national player of the year had the moment he had always dreamed of. And gagged on it.

If he takes and makes that 3, nobody is talking about K's great scheme. We're asking why Johnson was left wide open.

Here's what Paige said after the '16 game.

"Ryan crossed half court, you kind of get into ball-watching mode, where you just stare at the ball and hope they miss. And I think that's what happened.
And when he gave it to Kris it was almost like a deer-in-the-headlights. Like, oh, somebody go challenge it. And yes, it was too late."

I do think Carolina should have guarded the inbounds pass. But give 'Nova credit. They executed that play at a pretty high level. Sometimes execution trumps scheme.

tux
04-06-2016, 12:40 PM
Vegas had a lot more time in '91. A lot more.

Apples and oranges, IMO.

Johnson had a wide-open 3 in '91. The consensus national player of the year had the moment he had always dreamed of. And gagged on it.

If he takes and makes that 3, nobody is talking about K's great scheme. We're asking why Johnson was left wide open.

Here's what Paige said after the '16 game.

"Ryan crossed half court, you kind of get into ball-watching mode, where you just stare at the ball and hope they miss. And I think that's what happened.
And when he gave it to Kris it was almost like a deer-in-the-headlights. Like, oh, somebody go challenge it. And yes, it was too late."

I do think Carolina should have guarded the inbounds pass. But give 'Nova credit. They executed that play at a pretty high level. Sometimes execution trumps scheme.


I give a lot of credit to Paige for that quote.

If you guard the inbounds pass, you do take a defender out of the play potentially as the ball gets moved up the court, i.e. if Nova tries to get something at the rim. But in retrospect, trying to deny Arcidiacono the ball would have been an interesting move, but I wonder what Nova's counter would be -- they may have tried to pass to another guard near half court for a handoff.

It doesn't matter. I'm pleased with the outcome...

CDu
04-06-2016, 12:43 PM
But Roy said straight up that he got what he wanted... coach speak? Maybe, but Roy usually doesn't hesitate to toss someone under the bus...

I think Johnson was were Roy told him to be. Roy didn't want a 2 point basket in the paint is my guess... which you can argue that you can't stop everything, and the odds are against making a 3 verse a layup.

But, I'm not cutting Ol Roy ANY slack... I just can't do it!

I don't doubt for a minute that Williams intended for Johnson to stay in the paint in a "free safety" role. Which is why I think that Hicks made the mistake. I think Williams wanted Hicks to guard Jenkins, but Hicks saw Ochefu standing all alone at midcourt and panicked. So instead of staying at home on Jenkins, he briefly guarded Ochefu. And then he chased Arcidacono as well rather than picking up his man.

I think it was just an in-the-moment set of mistakes by Hicks following the ball rather than his man.

There are many faults Williams has as a coach. But I can't imagine that he would instruct the team to (a) guard a 6'11" big man with no mobility and no shooting skills and (b) ignore one of the best 3pt shooters on the team.

jv001
04-06-2016, 12:43 PM
Vegas had a lot more time in '91. A lot more.

Apples and oranges, IMO.

Johnson had a wide-open 3 in '91. The consensus national player of the year had the moment he had always dreamed of. And gagged on it.

If he takes and makes that 3, nobody is talking about K's great scheme. We're asking why Johnson was left wide open.

Here's what Paige said after the '16 game.

"Ryan crossed half court, you kind of get into ball-watching mode, where you just stare at the ball and hope they miss. And I think that's what happened.
And when he gave it to Kris it was almost like a deer-in-the-headlights. Like, oh, somebody go challenge it. And yes, it was too late."

I do think Carolina should have guarded the inbounds pass. But give 'Nova credit. They executed that play at a pretty high level. Sometimes execution trumps scheme.

Paige is a standup dude and seems like a good kid. His honest statement on "the play" is commendable. I have to think that old roy was caught between the old rock and hard place on the play that ended a good season. GoDuke!

Reilly
04-06-2016, 12:53 PM
... K rolled the dice in 2010 missing that FT, but the basketball gods smiled on Duke that night. Not comparing a half court shot with Jenkins shot, but both were really good looks in the context of the game and time remaining. If Hayward's shot had fallen, K would still be getting questioned about the wisdom of that move.

As I understand 2010, K made decisions that he believed gave his team the best chance (that is, highest probability) of coming away with a victory -- which is pretty much what every coach is doing non-stop, every game. I'm guessing Roy did the same Monday night. No coach can guarantee outcomes. And sometimes (maybe many times), the coach picks the absolute best path to victory -- what gives his team the best chance -- but it just doesn't work out. Coaches do get faulted or questioned when the outcomes go against their teams, but sometimes (many times) that criticism is unfair. I believe K made the right call in 2010, and I'd still believe that even if Hayward's shot went in, as I assessed the various variables, relatively, as K did. If Roy is cutting off the rim, and doubling the PG, and relying on a 22-footer with 0.4 to beat UNC -- that's a pretty decent shot at victory for UNC (that is, a decent shot of the game remaining tied in regulation; and UNC going with momentum into OT and winning).

Olympic Fan
04-06-2016, 12:59 PM
Vegas had a lot more time in '91. A lot more.

Apples and oranges, IMO.

Johnson had a wide-open 3 in '91. The consensus national player of the year had the moment he had always dreamed of. And gagged on it.



Hate to disagree with Jim, but I also hate the myth that Johnson had an open 3 and choked by not taking it. Watch the final seconds again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUO7CTAebE

Watch Christian Laettner on the last play. He is the reason Johnson does NOT have an open 3. He has no 3 at all. Laettner takes it away from him.

I do agree with the rest. Vegas had 12.7 seconds left -- almost twice as much time as Nova had against UNC. Also, note that Duke does not guard the inbounder. But they do double Anderson Hunt to keep the ball out of his hands (with Anthony on the bench with five fouls, he's the best Vegas ballhandler). Johnson has to bring it up. Watching the final seconds for the millionth time, I think his mistake was not driving the ball -- he didn't have the 3, but he might have overpowered Laettner on the drive -- Vegas could have forced overtime with the two.

Someone mentioned in another thread how close we came to having another Lorenzo Charles situation -- and he's right. If Hunt's desperation heave is an airball, Stacy Augmon is there to catch it and dunk the follow. Instead, it hits the rim and bounds away.

El_Diablo
04-06-2016, 01:01 PM
UNC was applying token pressure in the back court so that Villanova couldn't just roll the ball in (per Roy's post-game explanation), but essentially the placement of Johnson and the defensive positioning of Paige and Jackson showed that they were taking a UVA pack-line approach to ensure Villanova had nothing in the paint and would have to shoot over the top somewhere in order to win it. That seems like a sound approach in theory.

However, parking Johnson in the lane AND applying mild backcourt pressure does not make a lot of sense in tandem, as the backcourt pressure makes it unlikely that the ball will ever make it into the lane off the bounce in 4.7 seconds (note that it took Duhon 7 seconds to do it off an inbound in 2004 against a defense that was not set). Leaving Johnson as a penetration stopgap in the lane thus adds little upside while creating an automatic mismatch on the perimeter, allowing Villanova to space the floor out 5-on-4. With Paige and Jackson loosely defending two shooters on one wing, it basically turned the game into a 3-on-2 break, with one defender on the ball and the other (Hicks) forced to help out on the screen near midcourt. Hicks misreads the screen, flaring out early to the sideline and letting Arc cross easily into the middle of the court. By that point, it is basically 2-on-2, but the two defenders are now out of position, and in scrambling to recover they both close on the ballhandler and run into each other. No one ever picks up the trailer, who gets a relatively wide-open look at the game-winner. Meanwhile, Johnson never gets within 15 feet of any Villanova player during the entire sequence.

It seems to me that, if you plan on forcing them to advance the ball the length of the court, having a defender protect the rim is not really doing anything. Had Johnson instead been positioned near the top of the key instead of in the lane, he would have been in a better position to contribute to the play. Alternatively, even if he had started off in the lane, he could have had the presence of mind to realize that no one was anywhere close to him and that a clear numbers mismatch was developing up top. The other option is to have him actually match up with someone and play 5-on-5.

MChambers
04-06-2016, 01:06 PM
Now, what I don't know is whether Williams had a timeout available. If he did, and saw that something odd was happening before the inbounds in terms of who was guarding whom, maybe he should have called a timeout to correct it. If he was out of timeouts, then nevermind. And if he didn't realize that Hicks was going to decide to guard Ochefu instead of Jenkins, then nevermind. But if he had a timeout AND if he saw that Johnson was out of position in guarding Jenkins, then he should have called a timeout.
I thought Roy had thousands of timeouts saved?

jimsumner
04-06-2016, 01:17 PM
Hate to disagree with Jim, but I also hate the myth that Johnson had an open 3 and choked by not taking it. Watch the final seconds again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUO7CTAebE

Watch Christian Laettner on the last play. He is the reason Johnson does NOT have an open 3. He has no 3 at all. Laettner takes it away from him.

I do agree with the rest. Vegas had 12.7 seconds left -- almost twice as much time as Nova had against UNC. Also, note that Duke does not guard the inbounder. But they do double Anderson Hunt to keep the ball out of his hands (with Anthony on the bench with five fouls, he's the best Vegas ballhandler). Johnson has to bring it up. Watching the final seconds for the millionth time, I think his mistake was not driving the ball -- he didn't have the 3, but he might have overpowered Laettner on the drive -- Vegas could have forced overtime with the two.

Someone mentioned in another thread how close we came to having another Lorenzo Charles situation -- and he's right. If Hunt's desperation heave is an airball, Stacy Augmon is there to catch it and dunk the follow. Instead, it hits the rim and bounds away.

Still looks to me like he had an open 3. He hesitated and the window closed real quick. But it was there.

But Olympic Fan reminded us of a great point. Greg Anthony had fouled out and Vegas didn't really have a back-up PG. Johnson was way out of his comfort zone. As great as he was, he tended to finish plays, not initiate them.

And 12.7 is almost three times the 4.7 Nova had. Nova had to hurry and get a good shot. Vegas didn't have to hurry.

But they didn't have a point guard.

And of course, the biggest difference. Vegas wasn't facing OT with an empty possession. They were facing the end of their season.

I've always thought Grant Hill was an unsung hero in those final 20 seconds. Laetter got fouled on the offensive rebound. But look at Hill keeping it alive. He was blocked out against a great rebounding team but somehow got a hand on it.

A final question. It's only a buzzer-beater if it goes in. But a team can win or lose at the buzzer if a shot misses. Duke lost at the buzzer in '84 and '02, won at the buzzer in '80, all on missed shots.

Did Duke win this one at the buzzer? The ball was in the air when the clock struck zero. If the shot goes in, Duke has a fraction left. So, the shot wasn't a buzzer-beater. Was the rebound?

Nit picking to be sure. But it seemed important to me Tuesday morning around 3 when my mind decides this sort of thing is more important than sleep.

Tripping William
04-06-2016, 01:28 PM
I don't doubt for a minute that Williams intended for Johnson to stay in the paint in a "free safety" role. Which is why I think that Hicks made the mistake. I think Williams wanted Hicks to guard Jenkins, but Hicks saw Ochefu standing all alone at midcourt and panicked. So instead of staying at home on Jenkins, he briefly guarded Ochefu. And then he chased Arcidacono as well rather than picking up his man.

I think it was just an in-the-moment set of mistakes by Hicks following the ball rather than his man.

There are many faults Williams has as a coach. But I can't imagine that he would instruct the team to (a) guard a 6'11" big man with no mobility and no shooting skills and (b) ignore one of the best 3pt shooters on the team.

The nit I'll pick here, though, is that, as I watch the replay, Hicks is almost completely focused on Ochefu the whole time, until after the screen. His back is to Jenkins for at least a full second, as he comes in behind Ochefu at the halfcourt line. Then both he & Berry follow the ball. It appears as though Hicks's assignment was to guard Ochefu, not Jenkins. Hicks certainly acts as though this was his assignment. But, if his assignment was to guard Jenkins, he really, really, really flubbed it badly.

oldnavy
04-06-2016, 01:28 PM
I don't doubt for a minute that Williams intended for Johnson to stay in the paint in a "free safety" role. Which is why I think that Hicks made the mistake. I think Williams wanted Hicks to guard Jenkins, but Hicks saw Ochefu standing all alone at midcourt and panicked. So instead of staying at home on Jenkins, he briefly guarded Ochefu. And then he chased Arcidacono as well rather than picking up his man.

I think it was just an in-the-moment set of mistakes by Hicks following the ball rather than his man.

There are many faults Williams has as a coach. But I can't imagine that he would instruct the team to (a) guard a 6'11" big man with no mobility and no shooting skills and (b) ignore one of the best 3pt shooters on the team.

Well, if it is as you say (and I am not saying it isn't) then Hicks made a colossal boneheaded play... why guard a screen setting big 50 feet away from the basket? That makes no sense at all....

It's possible, but I will stick with the my Roy goofed theory, it fits and reinforces my own preconceived biases against him! Which is nice.

Steven43
04-06-2016, 01:30 PM
Ithey played a top-level game Monday night.
Did they? I don't know. Paige was mediocre in the first half, and more significantly their interior shotmaking was fairly awful all night. If they had not gotten so many offensive rebounds--resulting in second, third, and even fourth shots--they would have lost by 15.

Also, their interior defense was below average for sure. Villanova scored almost at will on the interior. I think overall UNC could have played much better than they did.

throatybeard
04-06-2016, 01:33 PM
This is not to pile on to UNC.

Hey now, we're like family here, and there's a time and a place.

And this is the time and the place mwahahahaahahahahaha pile away!

Le Roy s'amuse.

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 01:52 PM
Well, if it is as you say (and I am not saying it isn't) then Hicks made a colossal boneheaded play... why guard a screen setting big 50 feet away from the basket? That makes no sense at all...

It's possible, but I will stick with the my Roy goofed theory, it fits and reinforces my own preconceived biases against him! Which is nice.

I don't think Hicks made the mistake. Hicks is guarding Ochefu (why I don't know) right in front of Roy and Roy tells him nothing. if he was supposed to guard Jenkins, wouldn't Roy be going crazy on the sideline telling him to get back on Jenkins?

Hicks does his job and helps Berry on the ball screen by Ochefu.

NO ONE IS GUARDING JENKINS! You only tell Johnson to protect the paint if everyone is face guarding and denying their man the ball which would make Johnson the safety. But UNC is denying no one (except for Hicks who denies Ochefu for some unknown reason).

I think Johnson was supposed to come out and contest and just froze. Hicks comes off his help to contest it a little bit but he was covering for Johnson.

If Roy told Johnson to just stay in the paint, he's as dumb as Pitino for not putting someone on the ball for the Kentucky shot.

https://streamable.com/cdoo

sammy3469
04-06-2016, 01:58 PM
UNC was applying token pressure in the back court so that Villanova couldn't just roll the ball in (per Roy's post-game explanation), but essentially the placement of Johnson and the defensive positioning of Paige and Jackson showed that they were taking a UVA pack-line approach to ensure Villanova had nothing in the paint and would have to shoot over the top somewhere in order to win it. That seems like a sound approach in theory.

However, parking Johnson in the lane AND applying mild backcourt pressure does not make a lot of sense in tandem, as the backcourt pressure makes it unlikely that the ball will ever make it into the lane off the bounce in 4.7 seconds (note that it took Duhon 7 seconds to do it off an inbound in 2004 against a defense that was not set). Leaving Johnson as a penetration stopgap in the lane thus adds little upside while creating an automatic mismatch on the perimeter, allowing Villanova to space the floor out 5-on-4. With Paige and Jackson loosely defending two shooters on one wing, it basically turned the game into a 3-on-2 break, with one defender on the ball and the other (Hicks) forced to help out on the screen near midcourt. Hicks misreads the screen, flaring out early to the sideline and letting Arc cross easily into the middle of the court. By that point, it is basically 2-on-2, but the two defenders are now out of position, and in scrambling to recover they both close on the ballhandler and run into each other. No one ever picks up the trailer, who gets a relatively wide-open look at the game-winner. Meanwhile, Johnson never gets within 15 feet of any Villanova player during the entire sequence.

It seems to me that, if you plan on forcing them to advance the ball the length of the court, having a defender protect the rim is not really doing anything. Had Johnson instead been positioned near the top of the key instead of in the lane, he would have been in a better position to contribute to the play. Alternatively, even if he had started off in the lane, he could have had the presence of mind to realize that no one was anywhere close to him and that a clear numbers mismatch was developing up top. The other option is to have him actually match up with someone and play 5-on-5.

Token pressure is fine, the problem was the token pressure was so token that it took Berry out of defensive position and forced him turn his hips. Once his hips turned with Hicks in no-mans land, Archidiacono had free reign to the 3-point line and assured Nova at least a good open look from 3 (so a 30-40% shot of winning the game) as Hart was also open off of a pick.

Tripping William
04-06-2016, 01:59 PM
I don't think Hicks made the mistake. Hicks is guarding Ochefu (why I don't know) right in front of Roy and Roy tells him nothing. if he was supposed to guard Jenkins, wouldn't Roy be going crazy on the sideline telling him to get back on Jenkins?



I have become convinced of this as well. And instead of Roy pointing to Hicks & yelling that he needed to get off Ochefu & guard Jenkins, Roy is "calm hands" (palms down) as Arcidiacono gets the ball right in front of him (with Hicks face-guarding Ochefu), and then points down toward the Nova basket after Arch/Berry go past him, with Ochefu setting the screen at halfcourt (Hicks coming to Ochefu's side, and then dropping behind him). I would expect that, if Hicks blew his assignment, Roy would have been pointing at *Jenkins*, and Hicks would have moved accordingly. But that's not what happened.

Olympic Fan
04-06-2016, 02:00 PM
Still looks to me like he had an open 3. He hesitated and the window closed real quick. But it was there.

But Olympic Fan reminded us of a great point. Greg Anthony had fouled out and Vegas didn't really have a back-up PG. Johnson was way out of his comfort zone. As great as he was, he tended to finish plays, not initiate them.

And 12.7 is almost three times the 4.7 Nova had. Nova had to hurry and get a good shot. Vegas didn't have to hurry.

But they didn't have a point guard.

And of course, the biggest difference. Vegas wasn't facing OT with an empty possession. They were facing the end of their season.

I've always thought Grant Hill was an unsung hero in those final 20 seconds. Laetter got fouled on the offensive rebound. But look at Hill keeping it alive. He was blocked out against a great rebounding team but somehow got a hand on it.

A final question. It's only a buzzer-beater if it goes in. But a team can win or lose at the buzzer if a shot misses. Duke lost at the buzzer in '84 and '02, won at the buzzer in '80, all on missed shots.

Did Duke win this one at the buzzer? The ball was in the air when the clock struck zero. If the shot goes in, Duke has a fraction left. So, the shot wasn't a buzzer-beater. Was the rebound?

Nit picking to be sure. But it seemed important to me Tuesday morning around 3 when my mind decides this sort of thing is more important than sleep.

I can answer this one -- in 1991, the clock does not automatically stop after a made basket in the last minute ... that rule change as made after the 1993 season. No way Duke gets a timeout called and the clock stopped in under a second if Hunt's heave goes in.

As for the Johnson 3, we'll jus have to disagree on that one -- to me it's clear that Laettner's stalking him all the way (and Johnson knew it)

Jeffrey
04-06-2016, 02:13 PM
As for the Johnson 3, we'll jus have to disagree on that one -- to me it's clear that Laettner's stalking him all the way (and Johnson knew it)

Doesn't it depend on where you think Johnson should have taken the 3? IMO, Johnson had wide open opportunities from the time he came off the screen, moving towards the 3 pt. line, until he basically got within 1-2 feet of the line. When Johnson finally raised up for the 3, it was too late.

Nugget
04-06-2016, 02:16 PM
I think Hicks said in an interview that it was his fault. Jenkins was his man to guard and he decided to help stop the ball instead of staying with his man. I thought it was very mature of him to admit the mistake and take the blame.

I think this is right and the problem (as someone noted up-thread) is that, unlike Grant Hill who in the UNLV game doubled the PG to force the in-bounds pass to go to someone else and then quickly recovered to his man, Hicks did neither -- allowing an easy catch for Arch and then casually following the play instead of finding his man.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-06-2016, 02:25 PM
Still looks to me like he had an open 3. He hesitated and the window closed real quick. But it was there.

But Olympic Fan reminded us of a great point. Greg Anthony had fouled out and Vegas didn't really have a back-up PG. Johnson was way out of his comfort zone. As great as he was, he tended to finish plays, not initiate them.

And 12.7 is almost three times the 4.7 Nova had. Nova had to hurry and get a good shot. Vegas didn't have to hurry.

But they didn't have a point guard.

And of course, the biggest difference. Vegas wasn't facing OT with an empty possession. They were facing the end of their season.

I've always thought Grant Hill was an unsung hero in those final 20 seconds. Laetter got fouled on the offensive rebound. But look at Hill keeping it alive. He was blocked out against a great rebounding team but somehow got a hand on it.

A final question. It's only a buzzer-beater if it goes in. But a team can win or lose at the buzzer if a shot misses. Duke lost at the buzzer in '84 and '02, won at the buzzer in '80, all on missed shots.

Did Duke win this one at the buzzer? The ball was in the air when the clock struck zero. If the shot goes in, Duke has a fraction left. So, the shot wasn't a buzzer-beater. Was the rebound?

Nit picking to be sure. But it seemed important to me Tuesday morning around 3 when my mind decides this sort of thing is more important than sleep.

Yes, I agree with this assessment. The shot was there, the hesitation was real.

Now, I will have to re-watch the last two minutes of that game six or eight more times to be sure.

CDu
04-06-2016, 02:59 PM
Well, if it is as you say (and I am not saying it isn't) then Hicks made a colossal boneheaded play... why guard a screen setting big 50 feet away from the basket? That makes no sense at all...

It's possible, but I will stick with the my Roy goofed theory, it fits and reinforces my own preconceived biases against him! Which is nice.

It was a colossal blunder either way. But which do you think is more likely:
- the coach with nearly 30 years of head coaching experience (and 5+ national title game appearances) botched it? or
- a 20-year-old kid who has never been a game of this magnitude before botched it?

My money is on the latter. Although I completely agree that the former would be more enjoyable.

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 03:12 PM
It was a colossal blunder either way. But which do you think is more likely:
- the coach with nearly 30 years of head coaching experience (and 5+ national title game appearances) botched it? or
- a 20-year-old kid who has never been a game of this magnitude before botched it?

My money is on the latter. Although I completely agree that the former would be more enjoyable.

If Hicks was in the wrong position, why didn't Roy yell at him to go guard Jenkins?

I think Roy screwed up because it was after a time out. They should have all known what to do.

El_Diablo
04-06-2016, 03:36 PM
Roy maybe should have had Tokoto guarding Ochefu so he could switch on any screen.

Oh, wait....

OldPhiKap
04-06-2016, 03:42 PM
If Hicks was in the wrong position, why didn't Roy yell at him to go guard Jenkins?

I think Roy screwed up because it was after a time out. They should have all known what to do.

Which is why I think Hicks was exactly where the coach wanted him to be. Either guarding Ochefu or in case Arch cut back towards that side of the court.


I have gotten on Roy as much as anyone over the years, this season included. Unfairly at times, I will admit. I just think this is a case where Villanova executed perfectly and there wasn't much that could be done about it. Game, blouses.

OldPhiKap
04-06-2016, 03:47 PM
Roy maybe should have had Tokoto guarding Ochefu so he could switch on any screen.

Oh, wait...

Funny, I thought of how they could have used a defensive player like Tokoto in that situation too. Oh well, I am sure that JP is ripping it up in the NBA and glad he didn't stay another year in Chappa Hiya. (Funny, I can't find his career NBA stats anywhere though -- my Google must be broken or something).

CDu
04-06-2016, 03:56 PM
If Hicks was in the wrong position, why didn't Roy yell at him to go guard Jenkins?

Because when it was an issue, he probably couldn't get Hicks' attention. To be clear: I have not a huge problem with Hicks fronting Ochefu on the inbounds. It took away the half-court pass and allowed Johnson to stay as a deep safety.

Where I think Hicks' error was is that he stayed on Ochefu well after the ball was inbounded, and didn't get back to his man. But by that point, the play was ongoing, and it's hard to get a player's attention (and dangerous to try given the lack of time and risk of a player's mental shutdown or foul) over all the crowd noise and chaos.

I think Hicks simply panicked, and didn't understand the game situation and that Jenkins was the only threat among big men on the floor. It's clear that Johnson wasn't being asked to guard Jenkins as there was almost no way that Jenkins was going to get into the paint from the inbounds in that length of time to take a shot. So clearly Hicks' assignment was Jenkins, right? I really can't believe that Williams would ignore one of the opponent's best offensive weapons to focus defense on a guy who has little chance of doing anything worthwhile given the time and distance.


I think Roy screwed up because it was after a time out. They should have all known what to do.

I'm sure they had a plan. But the problem is that it was also after a timeout for Villanova. I think they (namely Hicks) were surprised that Ochefu was at half-court and that the other two guards were all the way down court. I think Roy had probably assigned Johnson to Ochefu and said "don't leave the paint in case they run screens down court for a layup". I think they expected two guards to be the ones at midcourt and beyond, not Ochefu. And that threw Hicks off. He saw Ochefu standing by himself at midcourt and thought "there is a wide open big guy, I should guard him." And at that point, it was too late for Williams to fix it.

Obviously, we'll never know. Williams said the defense was the way he drew it up. Hicks said that he was the one who made the mistake in leaving his man. We'll never know who was right.

Thankfully, one of the two made a colossal mistake, and it facilitated an incredible shot.

oldnavy
04-06-2016, 05:02 PM
It was a colossal blunder either way. But which do you think is more likely:
- the coach with nearly 30 years of head coaching experience (and 5+ national title game appearances) botched it? or
- a 20-year-old kid who has never been a game of this magnitude before botched it?

My money is on the latter. Although I completely agree that the former would be more enjoyable.

Well, I've seen Roy actually make bigger mistakes during games, so it wouldn't be a surprise to me if he did ignore Jenkins.

Who knows for sure?

My first instinct is to put the blame on Roy because he has done some really bone head things that defy logic in the past.

Tripping William
04-06-2016, 05:07 PM
So clearly Hicks' assignment was Jenkins, right? I really can't believe that Williams would ignore one of the opponent's best offensive weapons to focus defense on a guy who has little chance of doing anything worthwhile given the time and distance.



I'm completely with you on that second sentence, and that's what's so befuddling to me: I see nothing (zippo, zilch, nada) on the videotape that indicates to me that Hicks's assignment was Jenkins. I've done freeze-frame on it more than a dozen times now, and every movement Hicks makes is as if Ochefu is his mark. Even his secondary movements are toward Arcidiacomo, not Jenkins.

bluedevilsince72
04-06-2016, 05:08 PM
Because when it was an issue, he probably couldn't get Hicks' attention. To be clear: I have not a huge problem with Hicks fronting Ochefu on the inbounds. It took away the half-court pass and allowed Johnson to stay as a deep safety.

Where I think Hicks' error was is that he stayed on Ochefu well after the ball was inbounded, and didn't get back to his man. But by that point, the play was ongoing, and it's hard to get a player's attention (and dangerous to try given the lack of time and risk of a player's mental shutdown or foul) over all the crowd noise and chaos.

I think Hicks simply panicked, and didn't understand the game situation and that Jenkins was the only threat among big men on the floor. It's clear that Johnson wasn't being asked to guard Jenkins as there was almost no way that Jenkins was going to get into the paint from the inbounds in that length of time to take a shot. So clearly Hicks' assignment was Jenkins, right? I really can't believe that Williams would ignore one of the opponent's best offensive weapons to focus defense on a guy who has little chance of doing anything worthwhile given the time and distance.



I'm sure they had a plan. But the problem is that it was also after a timeout for Villanova. I think they (namely Hicks) were surprised that Ochefu was at half-court and that the other two guards were all the way down court. I think Roy had probably assigned Johnson to Ochefu and said "don't leave the paint in case they run screens down court for a layup". I think they expected two guards to be the ones at midcourt and beyond, not Ochefu. And that threw Hicks off. He saw Ochefu standing by himself at midcourt and thought "there is a wide open big guy, I should guard him." And at that point, it was too late for Williams to fix it.

Obviously, we'll never know. Williams said the defense was the way he drew it up. Hicks said that he was the one who made the mistake in leaving his man. We'll never know who was right.

Thankfully, one of the two made a colossal mistake, and it facilitated an incredible shot.

There was no way anyone was surprised. Ochefu spent like 60 seconds or more mopping the floor. Remember -http://www.cbssports.com/video/player/checkthisout/658997827734/0/nova-wipes-out-unc-ochefu-just-wipes-the-floor

It was obvious Hicks was not assigned to Jenkins. Roy had ample time to tell Hicks who to guard if Hicks had made a mistake and forgotten who to guard.

Roy screwed up big time. he wasn't prepared. Nova had run this play against Kansas according to CBS' Doug Gottlieb. Inexcusable not to know where Nova would align guys.

Newton_14
04-06-2016, 06:42 PM
I have heard a few pundits criticize Roy for the last play.

The major point being made is that during the whole game, Nova had difficulty on the inbound pass. They actually turned it over in the comeback sequence.

So the question was, why not put Johnson on Jenkins and force a contested inbound pass? Maybe you get another turnover and score to win???

As it played out, Johnson was guarding no one under the basket. In fact Hicks(?) who contested the shot had to come off his man to get a hand in Jenkins face.

No one was assigned to Jenkins... think about this for a second, NO ONE WAS GUARDING the second best 3 point shooter on the team.

This is just another questionable coaching decision made by the man who is smarter than all of us! But of course, Roy defended it by saying he got exactly what he wanted and they didn't advance the ball 40 feet on an inbound pass. Well... yea, I guess?? First, why would Nova risk a 40 foot inbound pass with that much time on the clock? Maybe a 20 foot uncontested pass, but 40 feet?? Second, if you are not going to guard the perimeter and stack your defense under the basket then you obviously leave the outside open, which is exactly what happened. So ok, if you wanted a wide open 3 pointer from Jenkins, then you got your play!!!

It would be a bad decision by anyone, but since Roy goes out of his way to let us all know how dadgum good he is, I think it is fair to hold him to a slightly higher standard than we do the mere mortal coaches.


(Sorry, but Roy annoys the *&$ out of me) He is quick to tell you how much tougher, smarter, passionate, yada, yada, yada he is than you or I.

There is a reason a growing number of his own fan base is tiring of his act.

Bingo. I know I am biased cause Hicks is from my area of the world, but Hicks was both assigned to and fronting Echefu. That was by design. Roy did not want Nova to make a pass to halfcourt. He wanted Arch to have to dribble the length of the floor making the clock more of a factor. Either NO ONE was assigned to defend Jenkins (which is a cardinal sin for two reasons, one being the man inbounding is the most dangerous guy on the floor, and two, Jenkins was their second best 3 point shooter), or Johnson was assigned to Jenkins (I don't think so) or Hicks was to defend Echefu and then switch to Jenkins once the ball crossed halfcourt (which Hicks did, except Berry got in his way, causing Hicks to be a step late getting to Jenkins)

I fully believe Johnson did exactly what his assignment was, which was defend at the rim to prevent a layup, no matter what. Berry got partially slowed by the Echefu screen, which put Hicks having to pick Arch up, and then the combination of the slide screen by Arch, and Berry getting in the way of Hicks, led to basically a wide open 3 about 2.5 feet behind the line.

The only thing I would have done differently is either put Johnson on Jenkins to both make the inbounds harder, and take away the trailing 3, or use Johnson to double Arch with Berry, and force someone else to receive the inbounds pass. That would have blown the Nova play up and forced them to wing it. Maybe they wing it and score anyway. Who knows.

unc was just in a bad spot. Tie game, so Nova has far less pressure on whatever shot they take. I know momentum suggested unc would win in OT, but still, Nova was not in a "must make" situation. To me that put more pressure on unc to defend perfectly. Which they did not do.

Unfortunately, we will likely never know what the defensive assignments were.

-jk
04-06-2016, 09:05 PM
My favorite quote from IC (http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina/forums/1410-basketball/14673887-last-play/ms/182495566?s=78&page=4) (you'll have to scroll):


Man!, I'm feeling old. Dean would have used a soft 3/4 court trap - he loved those traps - both slowing progress and protecting the rim, forcing a half court heave (aka Butler in '10). I still don't get Roy's D set; he knows better!

-jk

Wheat/"/"/"
04-06-2016, 09:45 PM
Too busy the past few weeks to spend any time on the board...spring breaks are a killer for me.

Great game, but somebody had to lose. Just goes to show that Championships are hard to win.

As for the last play, I listened to an excellent podcast on IC premium where former player Dewey Burke broke it down from his experience as a former player. I think he had it right.

UNC wanted to force the inbounds pass to be caught by a player coming back to the ball...not rolling downhill towards the rim with a head of steam, that's why they chose not to guard the inbounds player, forcing them to use more clock...that was accomplished.

Brice Johnson was stationed at the FT line as the longest, most athletic player to guard against the Laettner type pass, and to fall back and protect the rim on a straight dribble drive. If penetration was denied, as it was, the trailer(Jenkins) was Brice's man and it was Brice who was to step out from his foul line position and contest the shot with his length.

Unfortunately for UNC, he got caught ball watching and didn't react in time to execute the defense, Hicks came off his man late to try and help...but Jenkins already had a clean look and, to his credit, made the play.

Hard to come down on a player like Brice that had such a great year on the final play like that, but it is what it is as they say...

Just goes to show the little things that can decide games. Roy had his defense well thought out, it just didn't get executed this time.

Give me another week or so and I hope to have more time to stop by to discuss what I felt like was a great season for UNC basketball.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-06-2016, 09:55 PM
Too busy the past few weeks to spend any time on the board...spring breaks are a killer for me.

Great game, but somebody had to lose. Just goes to show that Championships are hard to win.

As for the last play, I listened to an excellent podcast on IC premium where former player Dewey Burke broke it down from his experience as a former player. I think he had it right.

UNC wanted to force the inbounds pass to be caught by a player coming back to the ball...not rolling downhill towards the rim with a head of steam, that's why they chose not to guard the inbounds player, forcing them to use more clock...that was accomplished.

Brice Johnson was stationed at the FT line as the longest, most athletic player to guard against the Laettner type pass, and to fall back and protect the rim on a straight dribble drive. If penetration was denied, as it was, the trailer(Jenkins) was Brice's man and it was Brice who was to step out from his foul line position and contest the shot with his length.

Unfortunately for UNC, he got caught ball watching and didn't react and execute the defense, Hicks came off his man late to try and help...but Jenkinsalready had a clean look and, to his credit, made the play.

Hard to come down on a player like Brice that had such a great year on the final play like that, but it is what it is as they say...

Just goes to show the little things that can decide games. Roy had his defense well thought out, it just didn't get executed this time.

Give me another week or so and I hope to have more time to stop by to discuss what I felt like was a great season for UNC basketball.

Welcome back, Wheat. Tough loss.

I have no issue with the defense on the last play. It was a gamble. A gamble that lost to a really well executed play and an ice-cold assassin shot.

Hindsight, sure, guard the inbound pass, make the entry more difficult, challenge the dribble, stay on Jenkins... but geez, there was solid reasoning to play it as Roy did, but sometimes you just get beat by a good play and a great shot.

UNC was probably the most complete team in the country this year. But that isn't how sports works. Ask Duke 1999. Sucks to lose when you are the better team and another squad just outplays you.

It is going to be a long off-season for everyone, but longer for UNC fans who will be asking "what if" until November.

Adios, Marcus Paige - you were an honorable and skilled opponent. Brice - see you in the NBA.

OldPhiKap
04-06-2016, 10:00 PM
Too busy the past few weeks to spend any time on the board...spring breaks are a killer for me.

Great game, but somebody had to lose. Just goes to show that Championships are hard to win.

As for the last play, I listened to an excellent podcast on IC premium where former player Dewey Burke broke it down from his experience as a former player. I think he had it right.

UNC wanted to force the inbounds pass to be caught by a player coming back to the ball...not rolling downhill towards the rim with a head of steam, that's why they chose not to guard the inbounds player, forcing them to use more clock...that was accomplished.

Brice Johnson was stationed at the FT line as the longest, most athletic player to guard against the Laettner type pass, and to fall back and protect the rim on a straight dribble drive. If penetration was denied, as it was, the trailer(Jenkins) was Brice's man and it was Brice who was to step out from his foul line position and contest the shot with his length.

Unfortunately for UNC, he got caught ball watching and didn't react in time to execute the defense, Hicks came off his man late to try and help...but Jenkins already had a clean look and, to his credit, made the play.

Hard to come down on a player like Brice that had such a great year on the final play like that, but it is what it is as they say...

Just goes to show the little things that can decide games. Roy had his defense well thought out, it just didn't get executed this time.

Give me another week or so and I hope to have more time to stop by to discuss what I felt like was a great season for UNC basketball.

Thanks. As Wheat can testify, I am constantly tough on Roy. But I think this is exactly right.

Newton_14
04-06-2016, 10:36 PM
Too busy the past few weeks to spend any time on the board...spring breaks are a killer for me.

Great game, but somebody had to lose. Just goes to show that Championships are hard to win.

As for the last play, I listened to an excellent podcast on IC premium where former player Dewey Burke broke it down from his experience as a former player. I think he had it right.

UNC wanted to force the inbounds pass to be caught by a player coming back to the ball...not rolling downhill towards the rim with a head of steam, that's why they chose not to guard the inbounds player, forcing them to use more clock...that was accomplished.

Brice Johnson was stationed at the FT line as the longest, most athletic player to guard against the Laettner type pass, and to fall back and protect the rim on a straight dribble drive. If penetration was denied, as it was, the trailer(Jenkins) was Brice's man and it was Brice who was to step out from his foul line position and contest the shot with his length.

Unfortunately for UNC, he got caught ball watching and didn't react in time to execute the defense, Hicks came off his man late to try and help...but Jenkins already had a clean look and, to his credit, made the play.

Hard to come down on a player like Brice that had such a great year on the final play like that, but it is what it is as they say...

Just goes to show the little things that can decide games. Roy had his defense well thought out, it just didn't get executed this time.

Give me another week or so and I hope to have more time to stop by to discuss what I felt like was a great season for UNC basketball.
Good post. And props. They did have the ceiling you thought they had and I did not. I still can't get over how the team we saw the entire Regular Season including the final game at Duke, turned into a juggernaut less than a week later. Roy even referenced that very thing several times, talking about how something clicked and the last 5 weeks was a joy ride with how they played. Props too, to Marcus Paige. I had been on record as stating I thought injuries was why he was subpar last season, but when he shot it terrible this season and clearly did not want the ball in crunch time of Duke/unc Rd 1, I started thinking he just didn't have it anymore. He played amazing in both tournaments, and put them on his back in the final 5 minutes of the Title game, making one of the most incredible clutch shots I have ever seen. I can sleep at night after it wasn't quite enough to push them over the top, but I have nothing but praise for the kid. Warrior. Every young player aspiring to be great should be forced to watch his play in the final five minutes of his career.

I'm still not sure they make the FF if they had, say Villanova's path, or Oklahoma's path, but we will never know. Being a Duke fan and all, I have to deduct points from them for being able to make it to the final game without having to face a 4 seed or higher. That said, they played great against the opponents they did face even if they were not top level teams, and battled Villanova to the bitter end and I do feel Nova was the best team in the Country after all was said and done.

So, glad as heck Nova took the title, but I owed you and them props. So there you have it. Off to take a shower now. uggh!:cool:

eddiehaskell
04-07-2016, 05:12 AM
I would've had Berry force the PG to run toward the inbounder with momentum to get the ball. That alone could've ate up a couple ticks.

eddiehaskell
04-07-2016, 05:34 AM
BTW - it seems like Larry Johnson should've attempted to take Christian to the hole or pull up for a jumper. The right side was pretty open for such a great offensive player to make something happen.

jimsumner
04-07-2016, 12:34 PM
If you wish to refresh yourself on 1991 Duke-Vegas, go to page 25

https://issuu.com/bluedevilimg/docs/goduke_7.5

The rest of the issue is worth a read or three.

Jarhead
04-07-2016, 11:03 PM
Somebody may already have noticed this. I just stopped the video of the shot just a split second after Jenkins got the ball, and noticed that at that point there was no unc player anywhere near Jenkins and the two guys who were guarding Arcidiacono bumped into one another. At the same time Arcidiacono slowed down and became a perfect screen. I don't see how that could have happened if the coach hadn't called it. Whatever, it was magic.

devildeac
04-07-2016, 11:06 PM
Somebody may already have noticed this. I just stopped the video of the shot just a split second after Jenkins got the ball, and noticed that at that point there was no unc player anywhere near Jenkins and the two guys who were guarding the Arcidiacono bumped into one another. At the same time Arcidiacono slowed down and became a perfect screen. I don't see how that could have happened if the coach hadn't called it. Whatever, it was magic.

Cheater fans obviously thought it must have been an illegal/moving screen and the basket should have been disallowed. Yet another way they got screwed Monday night. ;)