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gw67
10-04-2007, 08:16 AM
In contrast to the DBR story on the outstanding graduation rate of Duke athletes, the Post ran an article this morning that stated that none of the ten Maryland scholarship basketball players entering school in 1997-2000 had gotten a degree within six years after entering school. The article later noted that two of the players, Miller and Slaninka, had transferred and gotten degrees and one, Holden, had gone back and gotten a degree after the six year period. As best I can remember, the ten, less the three noted previously, were Dixon, Morris, Blake, Baxter, Nicholas, Mardesich and Cephas. All attended school for four years and, except for Cephas, all play pro basketball at some level.

This is old news. About two years ago, a golfing buddy who is a Maryland booster, told me that the school athletic administration was very upset that none of the players from that era had gotten a degree and that they were upgrading their academic support approach to help ensure that those who stay for four years get their degree. They are getting better - three of five graduating last year got degrees and the next three classes are apparently solid academically.

I realize that every youngster's situation is different, but the combination of good academic support, summer semesters and a clear expectation for graduation should be sufficient to ensure a degree for most. It appears that Fridgen figured this out before Williams.

gw67

fuse
10-04-2007, 10:10 AM
While I realize the NCAA calculation method may be at fault, the N&O ran an article today about graduation rates for area schools:
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/725370.html

Unfortunately this link does not have the table that was in the paper, but Duke's graduation rate is 67% for men's basketball. Again, adjusted for early NBA defections, transfers, etc I am sure the number is much more Duke like, and while its hard to look at 67% not being orders of magnitude better than 0%, I would have liked to have seen a higher number for dear old Duke :-)

OldPhiKap
10-04-2007, 11:02 AM
"Maryland -- the N.C. State of the North"

TheTrain
10-04-2007, 11:26 AM
Per the Baltimore Sun...all 10 players went on to play professionally

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html

Olympic Fan
10-04-2007, 11:27 AM
While I realize the NCAA calculation method may be at fault, the N&O ran an article today about graduation rates for area schools:
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/725370.html

Unfortunately this link does not have the table that was in the paper, but Duke's graduation rate is 67% for men's basketball. Again, adjusted for early NBA defections, transfers, etc I am sure the number is much more Duke like, and while its hard to look at 67% not being orders of magnitude better than 0%, I would have liked to have seen a higher number for dear old Duke :-)

I was told that Duke's 67 percent grad rate was 10 of 15 players recruited in the period included in the study. Of the five who did not graduate at Duke, I believe two (Chappell and Burgess) transferred and graduated at their new schools and three went pro early (Brand, Avery, Maggette). I believe this also includes the Jason Williams, Boozer, Dunleavy class but even though three of those players left early for the NBA, I'm pretty sure that all three graduated within six years (actually, I think Jason and Carlos graduated after three years and one extra summer ... I think Mike took five years).

As for Maryland, they have a bigger long-term problem than the graduation rate. They are having big problems with the APR (the academic progress report) since the majority of their seniors over the last 2-3 years have dropped out of school without finishing their second semesters -- much less graduating. There's a very good chance they could end up with some major penalties.

hurleyfor3
10-04-2007, 12:24 PM
"Maryland -- the N.C. State of the North"

More like the UNLV of the east. I mean, I'm usually impressed by a degree from NC State.

4decadedukie
10-04-2007, 12:35 PM
Not unexpected and not "new" news, but clearly further confirmation of Williams' "Thug Ball" and attempted winning at any cost (to the players, to the University of Maryland and its wider reputation, and to the ACC). Do I remember correctly that NCAA-sanctioned loss of scholarships for substandard basketball graduation-rates begin in 2008?

SilkyJ
10-04-2007, 12:37 PM
More like the UNLV of the east. I mean, I'm usually impressed by a degree from NC State.

oooh. I was gonna agree with phikap, but I like this one better.

SWEAT GARY SWEAT

Jfrosh
10-04-2007, 01:21 PM
Here is the link for the NCAA rates (GSR) and the national rates which counts tranfers against your graduation.
For Duke
http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/gsr2007/193.pdf

to find other schools go to :

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal

I want to know who didn't graduate from the fencing team ;)

mgtr
10-04-2007, 02:17 PM
I think comparing Maryland to UNLV is an insult to UNLV (hard as that may be to imagine). Maryland is more like a for-profit trade school.

ivduke
10-04-2007, 02:21 PM
UNLV has been "clean" for several years since the Shark left. Of course, they also haven't been any good either, although Krueger seems to be getting positive results. Maryland has been and always will be "THUG U"

Johnboy
10-04-2007, 03:17 PM
I just couldn't go on when I read this sentence from the linked article (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html)(Baltimore Sun blog post):
"It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate."

Is this writer a Maryland graduate?

4decadedukie
10-04-2007, 03:31 PM
I just couldn't go on when I read this sentence from the linked article (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html)(Baltimore Sun blog post):
"It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate."

Is this writer a Maryland graduate?


English major.

OldPhiKap
10-04-2007, 04:19 PM
I just couldn't go on when I read this sentence from the linked article (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html)(Baltimore Sun blog post):
"It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate."

Is this writer a Maryland graduate?

Is our children learning?

hurleyfor3
10-04-2007, 04:24 PM
I just couldn't go on when I read this sentence from the linked article (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html)(Baltimore Sun blog post):
"It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate."

Is this writer a Maryland graduate?

What's that, a quadruple negative? There's a "no", another "no", a "didn't" and a "zero". So I parse this sentence as:

"It's a wonder at least one other school had a positive-real-number graduation rate."

Is that what [s]he means?

snowdenscold
10-04-2007, 05:20 PM
What's that, a quadruple negative? There's a "no", another "no", a "didn't" and a "zero". So I parse this sentence as:

"It's a wonder at least one other school had a positive-real-number graduation rate."

Is that what [s]he means?

I believe so - but it sure made my head hurt when I read it. If it is the case - that's a pretty sad statement.

OldPhiKap
10-04-2007, 05:32 PM
^ That sentence has more twists than a Triple Lindy.

Duvall
10-04-2007, 06:25 PM
I just couldn't go on when I read this sentence from the linked article (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2007/10/a_big_fat_zero.html)(Baltimore Sun blog post):
"It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate."


Ooh, she blog posts good.

The goofiness of the NCAA's approach to calculating graduation rates should not prevent us from referring to Maryland as Cincinnati on the Beltway.

VaDukie
10-04-2007, 06:45 PM
How soon until Maryland fans bash us for being 'elitist' for 'showing off', being 'holier than thou', just because we 'graduate' our players? :D

Biscuit King
10-04-2007, 07:59 PM
If you ignore the grammatical debacle, you have to admire the moxie of the writer (and Gary). Best I can tell, the essence of the article is:

"Sure, we don't even pretend to have a desire to uphold the academic goals of our institution. But we WON IT ALL, BABY! So there."

Hey, at least they're honest.

4decadedukie
10-05-2007, 02:09 AM
How soon until Maryland fans bash us for being 'elitist' for 'showing off', being 'holier than thou', just because we 'graduate' our players? :D

I believe they will and I hope they do. Nothing could be more indicative regarding the fundamental characters of the two institutions. We shall ALWAYS be extremely proud that Duke student athletes maintain the substantial academic standards that distinguish our University -- at every level, in every program and discipline, and for generations.

mgtr
10-05-2007, 02:30 AM
All this will just add to Duke hatred, since we spel are werds good and don't use no bad grammar.

OldPhiKap
10-05-2007, 09:15 AM
"The world needs ditch-diggers, too."

wiscodevil
10-05-2007, 09:59 AM
"The world needs ditch-diggers, too."

While the way the NCAA measures graduation rates may be flawed, Gary's argument, "that it's okay that the players didn't graduate because they made (make) a lot of money playing basketball professionally" is incredibly embarrassing for a university employee.

If a guy leaves early to go to play professionally that's one thing. If he stays 4 years and still doesn't graduate, that's not a good sign.

VaDukie
10-05-2007, 12:11 PM
Can we get the band to play the graduation song when they come to Cameron?

just_wondering
10-05-2007, 03:02 PM
I would imagine that the process of attending a selective school magically converts a means to an end to an in itself. No such thing happens in the real world. It's hard to see how the NCAA rules benefit student athletes. That some dare to go their own way and stick it to the man is something we should all applaud.

wiscodevil
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
It's hard to see how the NCAA rules benefit student athletes. That some dare to go their own way and stick it to the man is something we should all applaud.

They get a full scholarship and free tutoring. Most of the players Gary mentioned didn't go their own way. They used up their four years of elegibility without graduating.

just_wondering
10-05-2007, 04:27 PM
They get a full scholarship and free tutoring. Most of the players Gary mentioned didn't go their own way. They used up their four years of elegibility without graduating.

They passed a law that you can't go back to school?

Byron Mouton (transfer) and Juan Dixon (redshirt) were in school for five years.

When they started college I doubt that many people would have believed that either Steve Blake or Juan Dixon would have made the NBA. I have to believe that was the one thing in life that they wanted to do the most. They must have made the right decisions while they were in school in order to realize their dreams. Right now it doesn't appear that Terrence Morris or Byron Mouton made the right decisions about their future. But how do you ask them not to try and do the same thing that worked for Steve Blake?

I don't think you can. Rather than making a fat living off of athletes and then stigmatizing them for falling short of expectations I think that the NCAA would be better off working with institutions to make sure that kids graduate. Penalize insititutions with low graduation rates with steep fines and then stick that money in a pot to give kids a chance to pursue a second career after the first one went bust.

OldPhiKap
10-05-2007, 04:29 PM
Without a degree, Nick Caner-Medley is just going to have to get by on his rugged good looks.



{snicker}

mapei
10-05-2007, 06:10 PM
Aside from some schadenfreude because it's Maryland, this just exposes what a sham some "college" athletics can be. If all a sports team aspires to be is entertainment for students and an apprenticeship for professional sports careers, then separate it completely from the academic part of the institution. And, no, I'm not persuaded because its entertainment value may also support university fundraising. Anyone associated with higher education should be embarrassed that it has evolved to this.

4decadedukie
10-05-2007, 06:25 PM
Anyone associated with higher education should be embarrassed that it has evolved to this.

Absolutely correct!

just_wondering
10-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Aside from some schadenfreude because it's Maryland, this just exposes what a sham some "college" athletics can be. If all a sports team aspires to be is entertainment for students and an apprenticeship for professional sports careers, then separate it completely from the academic part of the institution. And, no, I'm not persuaded because its entertainment value may also support university fundraising. Anyone associated with higher education should be embarrassed that it has evolved to this.

But suppose the will of the people expressed through their representatives is to mix education and minor league sports. Is there something wrong with such a democratic decision? The people of the state support that institution and it is in every sense of the word their school

mapei
10-05-2007, 06:55 PM
Nothing wrong with having minor league sports provide entertainment on campus, just like musical acts or whatever. Just don't pretend that the hired hands are students, devaluing the meaning of academic education. What a joke.

And my rant is not limited to Maryland, BTW. It's directed at the whole system.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 06:08 AM
Nothing wrong with having minor league sports provide entertainment on campus, just like musical acts or whatever. Just don't pretend that the hired hands are students, devaluing the meaning of academic education. What a joke.

And my rant is not limited to Maryland, BTW. It's directed at the whole system.

. . . They also don't wear the name, the colors, and the pride of the university or college . . . and they are not on-campus, nor are they students or recognized members of the academic community . . . a semi-pro team like the Durham Bulls is great, but they are not the Duke Bulls.

just_wondering
10-06-2007, 07:52 AM
Nothing wrong with having minor league sports provide entertainment on campus, just like musical acts or whatever. Just don't pretend that the hired hands are students, devaluing the meaning of academic education. What a joke.

And my rant is not limited to Maryland, BTW. It's directed at the whole system.

Patrick Ewing benefited from his Georgetown education. I'm sure that students in his classes benefited from his presence. The same isn't true for Michael Graham. But suppose he was given a second chance (free ride) once it became clear that basketball wasn't going to work out for him?

In the case of a state University the people of the state made it clear that they want a first class University and minor league sports. There are exceptional people that can pursue two careers at once. Most of us can't. Why can't we change the system so we put the kids in a position where they can succeed? Guarantee their education and let athletes go part time if they want.

mapei
10-06-2007, 08:53 AM
Big John Thompson, IMO, was a mixture of positives and negatives. One of his major positives was his commitment to using basketball to expose kids who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to life at an institution like Georgetown. He was the first coach in the country to hire a full-time academic counselor, who always sat with the team on the bench to emphasize her importance to the program. And he had an astounding success rate at turning these kids into mature, educated men with university degrees and the kind of success and character that any of us could be proud of.

He also had some lapses, and as far as I'm concerned Michael Graham was an embarrassment to Georgetown and to college sports who had no business being there. He was one of the exceptions. My preference is that he be nowhere near any university I am associated with unless he can clean up his act, become a person of character, and a solid student. There's no way I will defend JT in his case.

Now, as 4decade suggests, maybe there's a minor league type program that can play on campus for pay, and maybe someone like MG can participate in something like that and use the compensation to pay for classes at Georgetown or wherever, assuming he can get admitted. That's up to him. And it's a much more honest system that doesn't taint the university's academic reputation.

Gary's quotes seem to be saying that, for kids the state gives scholarships to and allows to represent the university, academics is completely irrelevant so long as they can play basketball, win, and make money down the line. I find that a complete perversion of what universities should be about. If that distinguishes me from the citizens and voters of Maryland, I'm proud of the distinction.

merry
10-06-2007, 10:35 AM
Patrick Ewing benefited from his Georgetown education. I'm sure that students in his classes benefited from his presence. The same isn't true for Michael Graham. But suppose he was given a second chance (free ride) once it became clear that basketball wasn't going to work out for him?

In the case of a state University the people of the state made it clear that they want a first class University and minor league sports. There are exceptional people that can pursue two careers at once. Most of us can't. Why can't we change the system so we put the kids in a position where they can succeed? Guarantee their education and let athletes go part time if they want.

The one thing I agree with here is the kids should be put in a position where they have the best chance to succeed. But I'm not so sure we'd agree on what that means. Lots of kids have a lifelong dream to play professional sports but it doesn't mean they're going to make it, or make it at the level they aspire to no matter how much help they get. Their college scholarship allows them to attend college for free while they play basketball - that's the guarantee they get. It's not always a great deal especially for kids who end up in over their heads academically or who get bad advice/use poor judgement about their professional chances, but it's still a better deal than what the vast majority of pre-professionals get.

You could make the case that success in a lot of professions doesn't have anything to do with getting a college degree - sports is hardly unique in that regard - but lots of people who aspire to singing opera or being a chef etc. still go through college partly because they know it can be a way to get professional exposure, network with people who can help you in your career, and learn things that can help you whether you ultimately make it in your chosen career or not.

I believe that athletes who don't finish school for whatever reason should get some level of support for completing their education later if they so choose, but I don't see any obvious way to build that into an NCAA-sponsored program. OK well the obvious way is to allow a program to use one or more their currently alloted scholarships to support former athletes from that program that want to come back to school, but I have a hard time seeing any coaches going for that one.

The NCAA certainly has flaws but it's the only thing we have that attempts to enforce some kind of consistency or level playing field. If the people who run an individual university (or the citizens of the state in the case of a state school) decide that athletes only have to go to school part time, don't have to advance academically at a similar rate as their peers in order to stay "in school", or if they decide that men's college basketball players should get additional years of free tuition if they leave to pursue an NBA career then want to come back to school after their eligibility is up, that's no longer by definition NCAA athletics.

The problem may originate with the NBA, not the NCAA, but colleges don't have any say in how the NBA operates, so we're left with fiddling with NCAA rules to try and accomplish things. I'm not saying there's no way to come up with something that makes more sense than what we have now, I'm just saying it still has to be fair. An individual school can have more restrictive rules about how they handle athletics, scholarships and academic requirements if they so choose, but they can't have more lenient rules.

just_wondering
10-06-2007, 12:00 PM
Big John Thompson, IMO, was a mixture of positives and negatives. One of his major positives was his commitment to using basketball to expose kids who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to life at an institution like Georgetown. He was the first coach in the country to hire a full-time academic counselor, who always sat with the team on the bench to emphasize her importance to the program. And he had an astounding success rate at turning these kids into mature, educated men with university degrees and the kind of success and character that any of us could be proud of.

He also had some lapses, and as far as I'm concerned Michael Graham was an embarrassment to Georgetown and to college sports who had no business being there. He was one of the exceptions. My preference is that he be nowhere near any university I am associated with unless he can clean up his act, become a person of character, and a solid student. There's no way I will defend JT in his case.

Now, as 4decade suggests, maybe there's a minor league type program that can play on campus for pay, and maybe someone like MG can participate in something like that and use the compensation to pay for classes at Georgetown or wherever, assuming he can get admitted. That's up to him. And it's a much more honest system that doesn't taint the university's academic reputation.

Gary's quotes seem to be saying that, for kids the state gives scholarships to and allows to represent the university, academics is completely irrelevant so long as they can play basketball, win, and make money down the line. I find that a complete perversion of what universities should be about. If that distinguishes me from the citizens and voters of Maryland, I'm proud of the distinction.

Dude have you checked your faculty lately? Another area where colleges and universities get compromised -- the swinging door between government and academia

mapei
10-06-2007, 12:22 PM
The faculty certainly has plenty of people who worked in one way or another for the Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations, if that's what you mean. Some I like, some I don't, and you can probably guess which. UMCP also employs people who have been involved in politics at verious levels of government, including some friends of mine. But that's an entirely different subject with an entirely different set of ethical considerations. If you want to start another thread, we can have at it there.

merry
10-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Dude have you checked your faculty lately? Another area where colleges and universities get compromised -- the swinging door between government and academia

Is the swinging door between government and academia more compromising than the swinigng door between big business and academia? Regardless, does this have anything to do with college sports?

mgtr
10-06-2007, 03:52 PM
I guess that ultimately you can fault the faculty and administration for allowing athletic success to trump academic success, but, based on what I have seen in universities, most of the problem is the coach. He (or she) is the one who is responsible for recruiting, and for setting priorities on his team. I don't think that a zero grad rate makes Maryland a poor school, I believe it makes Williams a poor coach (and a poor human, for that matter -- he is helping young people throw away a fabulous opportunity).

mapei
10-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Is the swinging door between government and academia more compromising than the swinigng door between big business and academia? Regardless, does this have anything to do with college sports?

I believe the metaphor he meant to use was "revolving door," in any event. I think of "swinging door" as a reference to a Merle Haggard song. ;)

just_wondering
10-06-2007, 08:12 PM
Is the swinging door between government and academia more compromising than the swinigng door between big business and academia? Regardless, does this have anything to do with college sports?

Merry,

One of the points made in this thread is that the corrupt nature of college athletics compromises an academic institution. I was just making the point that an academic institution is set in a time and in a place that influences the direction of the university. Some of these influences might be described as compromises. At the end of the day I think that these other compromises are more serious than what happened five years ago to 10 basketball players. If all 10 players were hating life and regretting what had happened to them then maybe I would be shocked by the system. But since most of them will achieve more success in life that I will I instead offer my grudging admiration for their independence.

Mapei,

I too admire John Thompson as somebody who used his bully pulpit to make the world a better place. I think that it is a shame that the rules are such that he could not do more.

Some of what I'm trying to articulate is captured better in the Sun

Sun Article
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/basketball/mens/bal-steele1006,0,5053471.column

Re Laron Cephas. Here's a guy who made an impact out of the limelight.
LaRon Cephas
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/basketball/bal-sp.cephas17apr17,0,6507940.story?coll=bal-sports-headlines

merry
10-06-2007, 10:37 PM
I believe the metaphor he meant to use was "revolving door," in any event. I think of "swinging door" as a reference to a Merle Haggard song. ;)

Yep. "I'm always here at home til closin' time!"

j_w I like the "Both Side Right" article - thanks.

just_wondering
10-08-2007, 10:50 AM
The faculty certainly has plenty of people who worked in one way or another for the Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations, if that's what you mean. Some I like, some I don't, and you can probably guess which. UMCP also employs people who have been involved in politics at verious levels of government, including some friends of mine. But that's an entirely different subject with an entirely different set of ethical considerations. If you want to start another thread, we can have at it there.

The other tread would be -- "college sports corrupts a University more than other compromises a University has to make" ?

mapei
10-08-2007, 01:12 PM
That's up to you, I guess. I generally like your observations a lot. I just think that in this case you were grasping at straws to defend something that, to most of us, is pretty hard to defend. And it was a bit of a cheap shot to a school that you knew I liked.

Aren't you disappointed at least a little bit that Juan Dixon and Steve Blake didn't earn degrees? I am. And don't you wish Gary had been a bit more sensitive in his remarks? I can't imagine caring about universities and not wanting them to be about academic education, first and foremost.

That doesn't mean that Gary and MD have no arguments at all to make. The columnists have made them, by and large. But to be dead last in the country, and for the program to be repeatedly last in the ACC, suggests a problem with priorities IMO. I felt the same about Huggins at Cincinnati. I get the impression from your posts that you think it is all just fine, though I have a hard time believing that's your real opinion.

I used to root for Maryland, BTW. The Duke-hating finally got to me.

Going back to your earlier point about Ewing and Graham, were you saying that an athlete's scholarship - even in the case of someone like Graham - should not be time-limited? If so, I agree with you 100%. Graham was a hard one to build the case for, because he was so dislikeable (IMO, anyway) but, yeah, sometimes young people grow and change. If that was your point, I think I missed it the first time, but thinking about it, I now think that's what you were suggesting.

MulletMan
10-08-2007, 02:17 PM
English major.

More likely "Arts and Letters"

just_wondering
10-08-2007, 07:56 PM
That's up to you, I guess. I generally like your observations a lot. I just think that in this case you were grasping at straws to defend something that, to most of us, is pretty hard to defend. And it was a bit of a cheap shot to a school that you knew I liked.

Aren't you disappointed at least a little bit that Juan Dixon and Steve Blake didn't earn degrees? I am. And don't you wish Gary had been a bit more sensitive in his remarks? I can't imagine caring about universities and not wanting them to be about academic education, first and foremost.

That doesn't mean that Gary and MD have no arguments at all to make. The columnists have made them, by and large. But to be dead last in the country, and for the program to be repeatedly last in the ACC, suggests a problem with priorities IMO. I felt the same about Huggins at Cincinnati. I get the impression from your posts that you think it is all just fine, though I have a hard time believing that's your real opinion.

I used to root for Maryland, BTW. The Duke-hating finally got to me.

Going back to your earlier point about Ewing and Graham, were you saying that an athlete's scholarship - even in the case of someone like Graham - should not be time-limited? If so, I agree with you 100%. Graham was a hard one to build the case for, because he was so dislikeable (IMO, anyway) but, yeah, sometimes young people grow and change. If that was your point, I think I missed it the first time, but thinking about it, I now think that's what you were suggesting.

I think that a University should give every opportunity for student athletes to graduate. I'm not particularly upset that Juan Dixon hasn't graduated yet. Keith Booth took some time to graduate but he got his college when he needed to get it. I'm happy that Ernie Graham came back and graduated.
I don't see how putting the obligation on the athletic department is going to solve the problem. In the end student athletes will graduate with bogus degrees if they "have to" graduate in a proscribed period.

Len Elmore went to Maryland before Maryland strengthened their academic support unit. If you compare the graduation rates between Elmore's class and the one in the NCAA study Elmore's class comes out way ahead. If you compare individuals it's hard to understand the vast difference. Mike Mardesich and Taj Holden compare favorably to Tom McMillen and Len Elmore. Mardesich was pursuing a double major (international business) and Holden was part of the student government. Given the resources available and the students involved I don't understand the differences. I also don't know why Calvin McCall wasn't included. He was on scholarship and he graduated.

hurleyfor3
10-08-2007, 07:59 PM
What about that yes-uh-cabbages guy? Did he ever gradumarate?

greybeard
10-09-2007, 03:20 PM
There is way, way too much money made by way, way too many people on the backs of star athletes from the time they are like 12 to be fretting, imo, about whether athletes get a diploma.

Shoe companies, cable TV networks, ESPN televising 12 year olds on up and getting audiences, little leaguers getting "product" out the ying yang and being put on national television for several weeks, traveling all over the place, AAU teams, camps, all star games, agents, AAU coaches, sugar daddy alumni, reaching back into junior high schools; sorry, I don't get the business about diplomas.

I mean, I get it; but really, in the context I just described, why fret about the best of the best, who chose not to take full advantage and get a degree? Even the Maryland guys, they get, I am sure, plenty of education about important stuff just from playing ball for Gary. Being at the U, and picking up dribs and drabs, and getting to grow up a bit, while making some contacts, eating well, getting to travel, how "bad" is that?

Now, how Nike et al get away without refurbishing high school gyms all around this country, how they get away without putting it that new kind of turf in high schools that need it all around this country, that is what I think is of concern. How, in heavens name, does a sport like Major League Baseball get away with publicly lamenting the dirth of African American ballplayers coming up, while they insist that cities where these kids live build world-class stadiums with taxpayer dollars, and then do not give back to those cities by building turfed fields throughout the inner cities, promoting their names, that is of major concern to me. And, how the beer companies and cell phone companies and car companies, etc, who "partner" with those pro teams, and with such leagues as the "ACC" get away with presenting themselves as being in locked arm with these institutions and then ignore the ability of inner city youth to enjoy and participate in those sports because there is no place to play them, that is more than a concern, it is a scandal.

We pay our cable bills and get "league" passes for this or that and fail to demand any give back to the communities that the Robert Johnson's of the world ignore. I chose Johnson not because of his color but because he is a major, major player in the world of cable and of course sports. He has BET awards and all; the next time I see a field or a gym in Washington DC where it all began for him bearing the sponsorship of one of those entities will be the first. And, that my friends, concerns me more than a few exploited athletes' graduation rates. Gotta go, big time woman's college soccer game is on tonight; gotta get my work done, wouldn't want to miss it.

Indoor66
10-09-2007, 03:43 PM
There is way, way too much money made by way, way too many people on the backs of star athletes from the time they are like 12 to be fretting, imo, about whether athletes get a diploma.

Shoe companies, cable TV networks, ESPN televising 12 year olds on up and getting audiences, little leaguers getting "product" out the ying yang and being put on national television for several weeks, traveling all over the place, AAU teams, camps, all star games, agents, AAU coaches, sugar daddy alumni, reaching back into junior high schools; sorry, I don't get the business about diplomas.

I mean, I get it; but really, in the context I just described, why fret about the best of the best, who chose not to take full advantage and get a degree? Even the Maryland guys, they get, I am sure, plenty of education about important stuff just from playing ball for Gary. Being at the U, and picking up dribs and drabs, and getting to grow up a bit, while making some contacts, eating well, getting to travel, how "bad" is that?

Now, how Nike et al get away without refurbishing high school gyms all around this country, how they get away without putting it that new kind of turf in high schools that need it all around this country, that is what I think is of concern. How, in heavens name, does a sport like Major League Baseball get away with publicly lamenting the dirth of African American ballplayers coming up, while they insist that cities where these kids live build world-class stadiums with taxpayer dollars, and then do not give back to those cities by building turfed fields throughout the inner cities, promoting their names, that is of major concern to me. And, how the beer companies and cell phone companies and car companies, etc, who "partner" with those pro teams, and with such leagues as the "ACC" get away with presenting themselves as being in locked arm with these institutions and then ignore the ability of inner city youth to enjoy and participate in those sports because there is no place to play them, that is more than a concern, it is a scandal.

We pay our cable bills and get "league" passes for this or that and fail to demand any give back to the communities that the Robert Johnson's of the world ignore. I chose Johnson not because of his color but because he is a major, major player in the world of cable and of course sports. He has BET awards and all; the next time I see a field or a gym in Washington DC where it all began for him bearing the sponsorship of one of those entities will be the first. And, that my friends, concerns me more than a few exploited athletes' graduation rates. Gotta go, big time woman's college soccer game is on tonight; gotta get my work done, wouldn't want to miss it.

Heck of a strong argument, GB. I agree with you. We suffer from way too little give back in many areas of society and way too much demand for taxpayer funding of everything.

just_wondering
10-09-2007, 03:53 PM
There is way, way too much money made by way, way too many people on the backs of star athletes from the time they are like 12 to be fretting, imo, about whether athletes get a diploma.

Shoe companies, cable TV networks, ESPN televising 12 year olds on up and getting audiences, little leaguers getting "product" out the ying yang and being put on national television for several weeks, traveling all over the place, AAU teams, camps, all star games, agents, AAU coaches, sugar daddy alumni, reaching back into junior high schools; sorry, I don't get the business about diplomas.

I mean, I get it; but really, in the context I just described, why fret about the best of the best, who chose not to take full advantage and get a degree? Even the Maryland guys, they get, I am sure, plenty of education about important stuff just from playing ball for Gary. Being at the U, and picking up dribs and drabs, and getting to grow up a bit, while making some contacts, eating well, getting to travel, how "bad" is that?

Now, how Nike et al get away without refurbishing high school gyms all around this country, how they get away without putting it that new kind of turf in high schools that need it all around this country, that is what I think is of concern. How, in heavens name, does a sport like Major League Baseball get away with publicly lamenting the dirth of African American ballplayers coming up, while they insist that cities where these kids live build world-class stadiums with taxpayer dollars, and then do not give back to those cities by building turfed fields throughout the inner cities, promoting their names, that is of major concern to me. And, how the beer companies and cell phone companies and car companies, etc, who "partner" with those pro teams, and with such leagues as the "ACC" get away with presenting themselves as being in locked arm with these institutions and then ignore the ability of inner city youth to enjoy and participate in those sports because there is no place to play them, that is more than a concern, it is a scandal.

We pay our cable bills and get "league" passes for this or that and fail to demand any give back to the communities that the Robert Johnson's of the world ignore. I chose Johnson not because of his color but because he is a major, major player in the world of cable and of course sports. He has BET awards and all; the next time I see a field or a gym in Washington DC where it all began for him bearing the sponsorship of one of those entities will be the first. And, that my friends, concerns me more than a few exploited athletes' graduation rates. Gotta go, big time woman's college soccer game is on tonight; gotta get my work done, wouldn't want to miss it.

Cardozo High School in an area of Washington that is about to gentrify

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/06/AR2007100601165.html

greybeard
10-09-2007, 06:03 PM
Cardozo High School in an area of Washington that is about to gentrify

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/06/AR2007100601165.html

Interesting you mention that. The District just spent $250K putting in a turf field at Cardozo, and another $250K each at two other high schools in the district, including Wilson High, by far the best high school in the district and one of the best in the area. Wilson, in a very affluent part of NW, has no, as in zero, air conditioning. I went to back to school night, walked into the gym, this was in the evening mind you, and walked right back out. Couldn't breath and it was so hot didn't want to. Now I know why my 15 year-old, a sophomore, comes home so grumpy all the time. I used to think it was just me (watch it!).

Now, if Wilson has no AC, I am sure that Cardozo doesn't either. Cardozo is a grand old facility that would be a treasure on any college campus in the country. Its football stadium is truly beautiful. Before they put down the turf, however, I have no idea how they could have played anything on that field. Ditto at Wilson.

So, in the great District of Columbia, the former mayor, Mr. Anthony Williams, who was supposed to be some kind of special guy with a pencil, built a new stadium to house a professional baseball team when nobody in the city can play baseball because there are no fields to play on, while his successor had to scrounge and scrap together money so Cardozo, Wilson, and Roosvelt High schools can play football and soccer (perhaps baseball too) on something other than a field of rocks and weeds.

I wrote in an off-topic thread last week about how nobody will actually be able to get to or from the new baseball stadium by car except for 1200 special fans for whom there will be parking; the rest are relegated to a subway system that cannot possibly service 40,000 fans without some having to spend most of the night.

Anyway, I digress. From what I know of Cardozo, it is a rough place. Hey, if you had to spend a day in a facility built near a century ago, without anything resembling modern amenities like decent toilets, lighting, heating systems, locker rooms, playing fields, class rooms, etc, how can anyone really expect it to be otherwise.

Some folks trot out the numbers spent on per capita education in the District and believe that they are saying something. True, Marion built up a ridiculously large administrative/management/educational expert bureacracy that eats up way, way, way too much money; hopefully, it at least has provided some people who otherwise wouldn't have it a middle class existence. Fenty will do what he must to bust that system down to size. But we will still be left with a physical-plant problem that is mind numbing and that no amount of budget managment could have put a dent in through the Barry years until now. Build a fence around the Southern border, my patutti. Give my city some god damn schools!!!

That money spent on that stadium, because of the blackmail played by the commish and the other league owners, should have been spent on refurbishing schools. I don't care how much money that stadium will supposedly bring into this city; Anthony Williams, who now represents corporations who are looking to do business with the city (now there is a freakin surprise), should have said that this is not a socialistic society, and if you back away from the district because you won't pay your own way we shall call you what you are so long and so loud that even that bum O'Malley, from that hot dark place that all of us from Brooklyn know he surely is, will hear of it, again, and again, and again. He should have said, not only will you build your own damn stadium, but you will put in a turf field at the oldest and finest stadium in this city, at Cardozo High School's fields, and dozens of other high schools in the district as well, and provide uniforms and shoes so kids in the district can actually play the Nation's past time. Do this, and we shall support you. Do it not, and we will call you names that will make the bombs they are throwing at Barry Bonds and that they threw at Capinaris (ssh, I'm on a roll, no time for spelling) look like fairy tales.

At least in the area of sports, the corporations that make billions upon billions hawking shoes, Jerseys, reto Jerseys (three fify a pop) to freakin teenagers in this city and others should not only pay their own way regarding their own stadiums, but also should foot the bill so the kids in the cities can actually play the sports the corporations are marketing. No, I am not impressed that ESPN will go into some town in Texas which has a great football team and a great grass field to play on to begin with, and, for being able to broadcast a game a year, build them a new field with an electronic scoreboard. I'm talking about the average kid in the average city in America, that America has abandoned and milks the youth dry by ignoring them except when it comes to selling them sneakers and Jerseys and sending them to jail. The sports industry in this country has completely turned its collective backs on these kids, and then adds insult to injury by "offering" to return to the cities that birthed these sports injuries on condition that these kids and those around them foot the bill! Wow.

Until this nonsense changes, and until Congress gives the District the ability to tax income that is earned here, and until they stop making the District pay for state functions like a prison system when they can't even exercise the right that every city in this nation except the district has, Cardozo High School will remain what it is today instead of the incredible shining light of an institution it once was.

So, the gentrification that is taking place around Cardozo will only serve as a cruel reminder of how little it matters whether a state university the size and quality of U of Md. let's a few gifted athletes skate.

I really got no idea what I just said. :o

mgtr
10-09-2007, 06:18 PM
Greybeard-
While you say it eloquently, I still disagree with you. I don't believe anybody should be allowed to skate through higher education -- and certainly not marginally talented basketball players. These kids skated though high school, then college, and now they think they can skate through life. At 35 or so, they are washed up as second-rate basketball players, and then what?
With your logic, I guess the Georgia coach and his son a couple years ago (Harrell??) had the right idea -- give all the basketball players As no matter what, it just isn't that important.
I believe that athletic programs (at both high school and college) should be held to meaningful academic standards, and that if they fail to achieve some reasonable level, then sanctions should be imposed. Otherwise we have nothing but a minor league for the pros.

greybeard
10-09-2007, 07:18 PM
Greybeard-
While you say it eloquently, I still disagree with you. I don't believe anybody should be allowed to skate through higher education -- and certainly not marginally talented basketball players. These kids skated though high school, then college, and now they think they can skate through life. At 35 or so, they are washed up as second-rate basketball players, and then what?
With your logic, I guess the Georgia coach and his son a couple years ago (Harrell??) had the right idea -- give all the basketball players As no matter what, it just isn't that important.
I believe that athletic programs (at both high school and college) should be held to meaningful academic standards, and that if they fail to achieve some reasonable level, then sanctions should be imposed. Otherwise we have nothing but a minor league for the pros.

I don't think that you can link all the Maryland guys together. I think that it is possible to get a lot out of your college experience, including an "education," without graduating. For example, you might really learn a lot researching a particular topic, even pulling together different threads in a logical and coherent fashion, in your head. Translating that into a lengthy paper, however, might demand a set of skills that you have never developed, and are not about to start trying to when you are a Junior and are 21 years old. So you bust a course, in which you might well have learned a fair amount. Similarly, maybe you can't spell too good, and you have difficulty sounding out how strange Roman names are pronounced. You might have some concept from your Roman history course about the forces that might have driven a particular event but have no idea how to provide the details necessary to impress on a test. I could go on but all this is beginning to hit far too close to home.

That said, Maryland has had an issue with this graduation business from back in the Lefthander's heyday. Some might say that Lefty and his heirs, including Gary, have produced many fine men, who I'm sure are reasonably well educated, degrees or no be damned. I am one of them. At the same time, a zero graduation rate leaves me speechless. Anything in the same universe as a zero graduation rate leaves me speechless. Seems to me that Gary has some serious explaining to do.

Used to be Gary was easy to catch on the course at Maryland. Now, good luck sneaking into Congressional. Money talks, and some things are priceless. Playing for Gary, ain't one of them. If anything I said suggested I thought otherwise, my bad.

mgtr
10-09-2007, 10:02 PM
Okay, I guess we are on the same page, different paragraphs. And I agree that you don't have to graduate to learn something.

JBDuke
10-10-2007, 12:02 AM
Can we get the band to play the graduation song when they come to Cameron?

Oh, I LOVE this idea....

merry
10-10-2007, 09:33 PM
Can we get the band to play the graduation song when they come to Cameron?
Now here's a person who nows how to make good use of information!

greybeard
10-11-2007, 01:05 AM
Now here's a person who nows how to make good use of information!

Better hold up a sign, you think?

LetItBD08
10-11-2007, 06:07 PM
Nothing a little coordination between the Crazies and the band can't handle.