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DukeTrinity11
03-25-2016, 01:05 AM
You're probably the biggest critic of yourself at this point after this game.

You've got something left to prove so please come back for your junior year and show us all why you deserve to be a Duke legend like you dreamed about ever since since you were a little kid.

Doria
03-25-2016, 01:09 AM
I really want to see Grayson next year, as well. But to me, he's already a Duke legend for his performance last year and what he did for us this year.

eddiehaskell
03-25-2016, 01:16 AM
Legend status is already locked down, but he does have a shot at becoming the best Dukie since Christian nearly 25 years ago.

toughbuff1
03-25-2016, 01:17 AM
Agreed, if he stays four years, there will never be another number three in a Duke uniform.

Atlanta Duke
03-25-2016, 01:26 AM
After CBS piling on with the highlight film of the tripping incidents in the first half (has any college player ever received that during a tournament game) and the final shot about not embracing the Oregon player at the end of the game, I know I would not be back if I could get paid next season as an alternative to being a piñata to generate page clicks and ratings for sports talking heads for an entire season if I came back

Thank you Grayson for your time at Duke and helping to win a fifth national championship

eddiehaskell
03-25-2016, 01:38 AM
I always thought that if I was as good as Grayson I'd enjoy being in the hated Duke player role. That's what I loved about Christian - you knew he wasn't out there trying to be friends and that brought a certain toughness to the team. Granted, Christian probably does have a point about taking it too far can somewhat define your entire career.

eddiehaskell
03-25-2016, 01:48 AM
BTW - I don't really keep up with draft talk, but it looks like mock drafts have Grayson somewhere in the 20-30 range. Why is Grayson expected to declare if he's not at least a fringe lotto pick?

Quick edit: after saying that I looked up the rookie pay scale and even the 30th pick makes about a million bucks per year for the first 3 years. That type of coin could set one up for life so yeah, tough choice.

luburch
03-25-2016, 06:58 AM
BTW - I don't really keep up with draft talk, but it looks like mock drafts have Grayson somewhere in the 20-30 range. Why is Grayson expected to declare if he's not at least a fringe lotto pick?

Quick edit: after saying that I looked up the rookie pay scale and even the 30th pick makes about a million bucks per year for the first 3 years. That type of coin could set one up for life so yeah, tough choice.

If you're a lock for the first round you should generally go. There's a deeper conversation you can have about the team next year and Grayson's role, the strength of the draft, etc. I love the kid and would love to see him in a Duke uniform again, but if I was him I would leave. It's a chance to make money playing basketball and get away from all this media BS.

BD80
03-25-2016, 07:03 AM
After CBS piling on with the highlight film of the tripping incidents in the first half (has any college player ever received that during a tournament game) and the final shot about not embracing the Oregon player at the end of the game, ...

ESPN is about to release a story about Grayson visiting Disneyland ... and tripping Donald Duck.

TMZ has video.

NSDukeFan
03-25-2016, 07:07 AM
ESPN is about to release a story about Grayson visiting Disneyland ... and tripping Donald Duck.

TMZ has video.

They also show that he once jaywalked and another time ate his dessert without first finishing his vegetables. Pretty bad guy.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 07:09 AM
If you're a lock for the first round you should generally go.

I would suggest that anyone projected in the 20's is far from a first round lock. In the next few weeks, about 60 kids will become convinced that they are the 24th pick.

I hope Grayson gives this some informed and thoughtful consideration.

MarkD83
03-25-2016, 07:20 AM
Everyone on the board will need to understand that that the draft rules have changed. Players have until late May after the NBA "try-outs" (or whatever you call them) to take their name out of the selection process. This suggests to me that Grayson will put his name into the draft because he has plenty of time to be properly evaluated by NBA scouts. So we need not panic on this board when we see that he has declared for the draft. It would surprise me if he did not take advantage of the new rules.

BeachBlueDevil
03-25-2016, 07:32 AM
The way Allen brushed off Brooks shouldn't come as a surprise... He a fighter and didn't like losing. I read an interview were Capel talks about seeing Allen in an AAU game and he was just catching all sorts of crap. Allen came right back at them and Capel said that's what he liked about Allen. That said, Brooks was woofing all game, flexing and staring down the Duke bench on occasion.I wouldnt have had much to do with him either.

I hope Allen comes back, being a villain of college basketball will increase his profile and that could be a good thing. Duke will be so loaded next year that I'd have to think it might be easier for Allen to get off shots and show off his midrange game and develop his PG skills. That alone would make him more attractive in the NBA and I really believe his draft celeing no matter when he comes out is between 20-30.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 07:40 AM
Everyone on the board will need to understand that that the draft rules have changed... It would surprise me if he did not take advantage of the new rules.

It is the first "player friendly" rule change in ages. I see no downside to any marginal prospect taking this route. I hope it leads to much better informed decisions from players who get info from NBA staffers rather than cronies who assure them they will be a top 15 pick.

Billy Dat
03-25-2016, 08:03 AM
ESPN is about to release a story about Grayson visiting Disneyland ... and tripping Donald Duck.

TMZ has video.

No, the stories today will be about K's post-game lecture to Dillon Brooks about sportsmanship. I can't wait for this news cycle:

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 8h8 hours ago
FYI ... for anyone who thinks the last 3 by Brooks was a "D" move ... shot clock was running out. He looked at Altman, who told him to shoot

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
After Coach K lectured Brooks in the postgame handshake line, I saw Brooks say "I'm sorry, Coach."

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
It was a classy response by Brooks. Too bad K couldn’t show the same kinda class in his postgame presser.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
In the 1st half, when Brooks fist-pumped and shouted after making a 3 in front of the Duke bench, K barked at him to “Shut the (heck) up”

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
But I'm sure he'll claim he never said that, either.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: Coach K is a legend. He told me that I’m too good of a player to be showing out at the end. And he’s right. I’ve got to respect Duke

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: U've gotta learn from those things. He’s one of the greatest coaches. He coaches some of the greatest plyrs.
Gotta keep that in mind

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 3h3 hours ago Anaheim, CA
Jason King Retweeted The Big Lead story about Allen refusing Brooks' hug...
Yet his coach is out there lecturing the OTHER team's players on sportsmanship. Ok.

Duke76
03-25-2016, 08:36 AM
No, the stories today will be about K's post-game lecture to Dillon Brooks about sportsmanship. I can't wait for this news cycle:

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 8h8 hours ago
FYI ... for anyone who thinks the last 3 by Brooks was a "D" move ... shot clock was running out. He looked at Altman, who told him to shoot

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
After Coach K lectured Brooks in the postgame handshake line, I saw Brooks say "I'm sorry, Coach."

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
It was a classy response by Brooks. Too bad K couldn’t show the same kinda class in his postgame presser.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
In the 1st half, when Brooks fist-pumped and shouted after making a 3 in front of the Duke bench, K barked at him to “Shut the (heck) up”

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
But I'm sure he'll claim he never said that, either.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: Coach K is a legend. He told me that I’m too good of a player to be showing out at the end. And he’s right. I’ve got to respect Duke

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: U've gotta learn from those things. He’s one of the greatest coaches. He coaches some of the greatest plyrs.
Gotta keep that in mind

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 3h3 hours ago Anaheim, CA
Jason King Retweeted The Big Lead story about Allen refusing Brooks' hug...
Yet his coach is out there lecturing the OTHER team's players on sportsmanship. Ok.

who the heck is this Jason King, some loud mouth, its just one more opinion...Grayson was getting killed going to the rack and no calls, Brooks was talking smack all game, our boys went through the handshake line....I don't want them to like the other team when the are between the lines. different story outside the lines but screw the other team at game time

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 08:45 AM
No, the stories today will be about K's post-game lecture to Dillon Brooks about sportsmanship. I can't wait for this news cycle:

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 8h8 hours ago
FYI ... for anyone who thinks the last 3 by Brooks was a "D" move ... shot clock was running out. He looked at Altman, who told him to shoot

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
After Coach K lectured Brooks in the postgame handshake line, I saw Brooks say "I'm sorry, Coach."

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
It was a classy response by Brooks. Too bad K couldn’t show the same kinda class in his postgame presser.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
In the 1st half, when Brooks fist-pumped and shouted after making a 3 in front of the Duke bench, K barked at him to “Shut the (heck) up”

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
But I'm sure he'll claim he never said that, either.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: Coach K is a legend. He told me that I’m too good of a player to be showing out at the end. And he’s right. I’ve got to respect Duke

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: U've gotta learn from those things. He’s one of the greatest coaches. He coaches some of the greatest plyrs.
Gotta keep that in mind

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 3h3 hours ago Anaheim, CA
Jason King Retweeted The Big Lead story about Allen refusing Brooks' hug...
Yet his coach is out there lecturing the OTHER team's players on sportsmanship. Ok.

Let the media have this one. No sense in getting all worked up because we all knew the glee in which the media was going to act over Duke losing was coming. They'll be singing K's praises this summer in Rio of course. Maybe the same fate will befall Dillon Brooks and Oregon that befell Joe Alexander and West Virginia.

cspan37421
03-25-2016, 08:54 AM
Some teams, like Duke, will take that shot clock violation if the opponent cannot win and has conceded. Oregon is not one of those teams, apparently. Imagine what might have happened if they had to drive to the rim and Gerald H was still on our team.

Brooks needs his head examined if he thinks for a second that any Duke player is going to want to give him a hug the second the clock hits 0:00.0 after he adds insult to injury by chucking up a 3 after Duke conceded the game. He may have meant well, but he's an idiot. If OU knocks them out, I hope OU players try and carry him off the court on their shoulders in celebrating their victory. Maybe then he'll get a clue about a "D" move when the other D has conceded.

Who the H is Jason King? Does he work for the Oregon PR department or something?

A big part of me wishes that Grayson would just move on so he is not a media piñata (perfectly put, Atlanta Duke). I also feel he has nothing left to prove ... could his stock really go up by staying? Won't the knock on him always be his size? That's not changing with another year. Plus the way he plays all out, all the time ... risk of injury. If I were him I'd almost rather risk not being in the first round, and playing overseas or up through the D-league, than return.

OTOH he appears to be an excellent student, so staying for the education may trump all other concerns.

So as a Duke BB fan of course I'd like to have 3 on my side for next year - and the next. But as a fan of the person, the heart, the talent, I hate to see him waste his energy on opposing thugs and whistle-swallowing officials. It would just be painful to see him subjected to the same BS we've seen so much this year.

If I'm GA and the balance of my Duke educational opportunity could be held in abeyance until the end of my basketball career, I'd go.

jipops
03-25-2016, 08:58 AM
Let the media have this one. No sense in getting all worked up because we all knew the glee in which the media was going to act over Duke losing was coming. They'll be singing K's praises this summer in Rio of course. Maybe the same fate will befall Dillon Brooks and Oregon that befell Joe Alexander and West Virginia.

Not all will be singing prayers after Rio. I suspect Woj already has his hit piece written.

weezie
03-25-2016, 09:00 AM
who the heck is this Jason King, some loud mouth, its just one more opinion...Grayson was getting killed going to the rack and no calls, Brooks was talking smack all game, our boys went through the handshake line...I don't want them to like the other team when the are between the lines. different story outside the lines but screw the other team at game time

This and this and this. Sports loves a villain. So much more colorful when a lazy writer can cough up repetitive spew and sound some righteous indignation.
Would have been nice if just one commentating pinhead had wavered just a tad from the shaming.
Ten billion bucks they would have hounded Grayson into hell if he'd postured and barked as Brooks did.
Whatever. Season's End.

And Rio?! Geebus, I'm finding it impossible to not be alarmed or horrified about the politics, disease, corruption and disgusting filth surrounding this looming cloud.

jmck214
03-25-2016, 09:02 AM
After CBS piling on with the highlight film of the tripping incidents in the first half (has any college player ever received that during a tournament game) and the final shot about not embracing the Oregon player at the end of the game, I know I would not be back if I could get paid next season as an alternative to being a piñata to generate page clicks and ratings for sports talking heads for an entire season if I came back

Thank you Grayson for your time at Duke and helping to win a fifth national championship

My thoughts exactly. I don't think he's coming back mainly because of all the hatred he has received. He doesn't embrace it like JJ or Christian did. I think it makes him uncomfortable.

MCFinARL
03-25-2016, 09:05 AM
It is the first "player friendly" rule change in ages. I see no downside to any marginal prospect taking this route. I hope it leads to much better informed decisions from players who get info from NBA staffers rather than cronies who assure them they will be a top 15 pick.

Yes, I agree. The last couple of years there have been a lot of kids leaving school who were not 1st round, or even in some cases 2nd round, draft picks; this year some of those kids will have the option to change their minds if the prospects for a 1st round pick don't look good.

Grayson seems like the kind of player the new rule was made for--obviously a lot of talent, some questions about whether/how it will translate to the NBA, the possibility of a stronger draft pool next year. If he does workouts and gets clear indications that he will definitely go in the first round, he may decide to do that on the theory that, even if he improves his game next year, there is no guarantee he will improve his draft position. But if he doesn't get those indications, another year of media hate while honing his skills might actually be the preferred choice--and another year of good education, which would likely put him in position to finish his degree fairly quickly through off-season classes, would be the icing on the cake.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 09:07 AM
Not all will be singing prayers after Rio. I suspect Woj already has his hit piece written.

I think Woj will come around. He did hire JJ to do a podcast on his network. Maybe he gets access now.

MCFinARL
03-25-2016, 09:11 AM
No, the stories today will be about K's post-game lecture to Dillon Brooks about sportsmanship. I can't wait for this news cycle:

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 8h8 hours ago
FYI ... for anyone who thinks the last 3 by Brooks was a "D" move ... shot clock was running out. He looked at Altman, who told him to shoot

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
After Coach K lectured Brooks in the postgame handshake line, I saw Brooks say "I'm sorry, Coach."

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
It was a classy response by Brooks. Too bad K couldn’t show the same kinda class in his postgame presser.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
In the 1st half, when Brooks fist-pumped and shouted after making a 3 in front of the Duke bench, K barked at him to “Shut the (heck) up”

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
But I'm sure he'll claim he never said that, either.

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: Coach K is a legend. He told me that I’m too good of a player to be showing out at the end. And he’s right. I’ve got to respect Duke

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 6h6 hours ago
Brooks: U've gotta learn from those things. He’s one of the greatest coaches. He coaches some of the greatest plyrs.
Gotta keep that in mind

Jason King ‏@JasonKingBR 3h3 hours ago Anaheim, CA
Jason King Retweeted The Big Lead story about Allen refusing Brooks' hug...
Yet his coach is out there lecturing the OTHER team's players on sportsmanship. Ok.

Well, gee, this interpretation seems a wee bit biased. I will say that, if it happened, Coach K shouting "shut the *** up" to an opposing player who is woofing at our bench isn't a good look, because he is supposed to be the grown up. In general here, though, I think Coach K has really taken a lot of the Grayson abuse personally, because he sees that Grayson is not Christian Laettner, or even JJ Reddick, and doesn't take it in stride. It's terrific that Coach K has defended his player as he has, but it may also make it harder for him to laugh off the woofing or even be flattered by the fact that a #1 seed is so excited to beat a #4 seed when it is Duke.

ingrjc1
03-25-2016, 09:39 AM
My thoughts exactly. I don't think he's coming back mainly because of all the hatred he has received. He doesn't embrace it like JJ or Christian did. I think it makes him uncomfortable.

What's the deal with the tripping accusations from the Yale game? I watched that clip a few times. Really? A trip??

Also, who else is sick of Vern L. doing the Duke games. He had to say "stomp" a few times too referring back to his original call so many years ago. I would love to see GA stay, but I would not be surprised if the anti Duke media helps his decision process. I will through this out there too...... If he was not a Choir Boy white kid, would this go on like it did last night? Did anyone here anyone in the TV control center for CBS or TBS defend GA? I did not.

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 09:44 AM
In the next few weeks, about 60 kids will become convinced that they are the 24th pick.
And dozen of NBA scouts will try to convince them that they are right.

I hope Grayson returns for one more year -- a Duke degree (given his superb academics), a a retired jersey, and recognition as the best player in college hoops are worth a lot. The NBA isn't going any place.

JBDuke
03-25-2016, 09:45 AM
Let the media have this one. No sense in getting all worked up because we all knew the glee in which the media was going to act over Duke losing was coming. They'll be singing K's praises this summer in Rio of course. Maybe the same fate will befall Dillon Brooks and Oregon that befell Joe Alexander and West Virginia.

Another factor here is K's attempt to make this a non-story, when there was clearly some sort of exchange between him and Brooks. Brooks told his version to a reporter, and when K was asked at the presser, he first tried to deny it and then tried to walk away from it. Given nothing from his side, folks looking to grind an axe and play up to the anti-Duke crowd had some material to exploit.

For his part, after the game, Brooks appears to be pretty classy about it. It's just that his actions DURING the game were so unsportsmanlike.

cspan37421
03-25-2016, 09:58 AM
one thing is clear - Brooks is NOT too good to engage in that kind of garbage. It's clearly in his character to do so. So if Coach K said that, or something like it, he was mistaken.

freedevil
03-25-2016, 10:01 AM
The way Allen brushed off Brooks shouldn't come as a surprise...

Am I the only one who thought Brooks wasn't trying to "embrace" Allen at all, but trying to walk through him (like the old Dr. Seuss story, Zax on Tracks)?

TexHawk
03-25-2016, 10:09 AM
who the heck is this Jason King, some loud mouth, its just one more opinion...Grayson was getting killed going to the rack and no calls, Brooks was talking smack all game, our boys went through the handshake line...I don't want them to like the other team when the are between the lines. different story outside the lines but screw the other team at game time

Jason King is a sportswriter for Bleacher Report. He came over when BR made their attempt to "go legitimate", after being at ESPN and Yahoo for several years. Before that he was at the KC Star for 4-5 years, and has written a couple books on KU basketball. He's a Baylor grad.

No idea if he's making any of it up, but he's not just a random dude in the crowd. He probably had pretty good seats last night.

kAzE
03-25-2016, 10:09 AM
I don't understand the salt over Brook's 3 at the end of the shot clock. The game clock still had time, and he chucked from pretty long distance, probably not expecting to make it. I don't mind the shot at all. And in regards to the hug at the end of the game, I think he genuinely respects Grayson and wanted to say "good game." But Grayson is the wrong person to try to hug after ending his season (and likely Duke career). I saw another post saying that Brooks was talking a lot of trash, but I didn't personally see anything unsportsmanlike. Talking trash is part of basketball. It's as much a mental game as it is a physical one. If you're not tough enough to ignore the taunts, it's your own fault. They were the more veteran and experienced team, and that's why they won. No harm, no foul (in my opinion).

huey
03-25-2016, 11:11 AM
After CBS piling on with the highlight film of the tripping incidents in the first half (has any college player ever received that during a tournament game) and the final shot about not embracing the Oregon player at the end of the game, I know I would not be back if I could get paid next season as an alternative to being a piñata to generate page clicks and ratings for sports talking heads for an entire season if I came back

Thank you Grayson for your time at Duke and helping to win a fifth national championship

I agree. I think that was CBS's longest segment of the night. Unfortunately, this might be a major factor for Grayson coming back next year. As said elsewhere in this thread, he doesn't seem to be the type of player that thrives when playing the villain (think Lebron first year in Miami, but not trying to embrace it at all).
He probably looks at Justise Winslow's situation in the NBA and thinks, I should try to do that. Justise got his own flack for some tripping incidents at the end of last season (nowhere near what Grayson is getting), but all that is long forgotten in the NBA. Granted, Winslow is playing great for a playoff team, but he also has gotten plenty of positive off the court press as well. If Grayson really wants the hate to go away, the only way for that to happen is to go pro (not commenting on whether he should or not). He has to know if he comes back next year that it's going to be a full court press by the press to dissect everything he does the entire year. We're going to be great next year, and writers/editors will be chomping at the bit to one up themselves with stories of Grayson's behavior (or their interpretation of it).


I don't understand the salt over Brook's 3 at the end of the shot clock. The game clock still had time, and he chucked from pretty long distance, probably not expecting to make it. I don't mind the shot at all. And in regards to the hug at the end of the game, I think he genuinely respects Grayson and wanted to say "good game." But Grayson is the wrong person to try to hug after ending his season (and likely Duke career). I saw another post saying that Brooks was talking a lot of trash, but I didn't personally see anything unsportsmanlike. Talking trash is part of basketball. It's as much a mental game as it is a physical one. If you're not tough enough to ignore the taunts, it's your own fault. They were the more veteran and experienced team, and that's why they won. No harm, no foul (in my opinion).

I agree that it's fine to take the three, I think people are just worked up about the celebration right after, like he had just hit the game winning shot vs. the reality of hitting an open shot against a team that had conceded (added onto his displays of emotion throughout the game-very Devin Thomas-like). I'm not going to go watch a replay to check, but to me personally, that is what irked me. And he literally goes from celebrating that shot to trying to hug Grayson, which was weird. It was as if he realized he overdid it and tried to make up for it by being gracious and hugging Grayson. No wonder Grayson wasn't all hugs.

This isn't to say showing emotion and celebrating is wrong. You just got into the Elite Eight, a great accomplishment for the Oregon program. But celebrate after the win, not on an unguarded shot.

Sixthman
03-25-2016, 11:26 AM
Am I the only one who thought Brooks wasn't trying to "embrace" Allen at all, but trying to walk through him (like the old Dr. Seuss story, Zax on Tracks)?

Whatever

mph
03-25-2016, 11:26 AM
I don't understand the salt over Brook's 3 at the end of the shot clock. The game clock still had time, and he chucked from pretty long distance, probably not expecting to make it. I don't mind the shot at all. And in regards to the hug at the end of the game, I think he genuinely respects Grayson and wanted to say "good game." But Grayson is the wrong person to try to hug after ending his season (and likely Duke career). I saw another post saying that Brooks was talking a lot of trash, but I didn't personally see anything unsportsmanlike. Talking trash is part of basketball. It's as much a mental game as it is a physical one. If you're not tough enough to ignore the taunts, it's your own fault. They were the more veteran and experienced team, and that's why they won. No harm, no foul (in my opinion).

I got the sense that it wasn't so much the shot itself as the chest puffing and woofing after the shot went in. Regardless, I totally agree that this whole think is much ado about nothing. Maybe Brooks' behavior during the game crossed the line and K was right to say something to him. Maybe K was a little thinned skinned in the final moments of coaching his last game with a team he really loved. I certainly don't fault Grayson for not wanting to hug an opposing player a millisecond after his season ended. From what I saw, the players and coaches from both teams handled themselves with class in the post-game handshake line and press conferences.

Many media narratives (sports and otherwise) persist because it's easier to make snap judgements about someone else's character than trying to imagine what it would be like to be in their shoes. If it's lazy and unfair when people do it to our guys, then it's lazy and unfair when we do it to them.

DukeWarhead
03-25-2016, 11:50 AM
I for one don't mind playing the selfish fan and openly hoping for Grayson to come back next year. That's what fans do, they hope, wish, etc. In the end, Grayson will do whatever he wants to, but I'm not too proud to say I unabashedly hope that he chooses to come back. I think it will make a world of difference for next year's team, especially in the realm of leadership. A combined duo of experienced floor leaders in Amile and Grayson, veterans of the national championship run, would be a boon. (I know, Matt is there too, I'm just not sure if his role will increase to decrease next season.) We had three one and dones on last years' championship team and a freshman game-saver in Grayson, but I've always argued that were it not for Quinn's leadership, the team would not have gotten as far. Experienced leaders are so critical (Battier, Scheyer, Nolan, Quinn, etc.). Yes, Grayson can score it like crazy, but we also need him to steer the boatload of new talent coming in.
One can hope. Is it selfish, yes. Will I be disappointed if he leaves, yes. Will life go on, absolutely.
But...come back Grayson, we need you next year, dude.

cbarry
03-25-2016, 12:06 PM
We'll be awesome next year if Grayson comes back, but I think we should all expect him not to. As many others on the board have said, the reasons for Grayson leaving (weak draft this year, unfair officiating and media scrutiny as a "dirty" player, chance of injury next year- SOMEBODY has to break a foot) far outweigh the reasons for him staying (another year w/K, chance at another natty).

I'll also be disappointed if Grayson leaves, but I'll understand. I would estimate the chances of him leaving are at least 99.9%. Thanks for everything Grayson. I wish you the best!


I for one don't mind playing the selfish fan and openly hoping for Grayson to come back next year. That's what fans do, they hope, wish, etc. In the end, Grayson will do whatever he wants to, but I'm not too proud to say I unabashedly hope that he chooses to come back. I think it will make a world of difference for next year's team, especially in the realm of leadership. A combined duo of experienced floor leaders in Amile and Grayson, veterans of the national championship run, would be a boon. (I know, Matt is there too, I'm just not sure if his role will increase to decrease next season.) We had three one and dones on last years' championship team and a freshman game-saver in Grayson, but I've always argued that were it not for Quinn's leadership, the team would not have gotten as far. Experienced leaders are so critical (Battier, Scheyer, Nolan, Quinn, etc.). Yes, Grayson can score it like crazy, but we also need him to steer the boatload of new talent coming in.
One can hope. Is it selfish, yes. Will I be disappointed if he leaves, yes. Will life go on, absolutely.
But...come back Grayson, we need you next year, dude.

oldnavy
03-25-2016, 12:23 PM
This whole "Duke Hate" thing is taking on a life of it's own.

I have had no less than 3 "alerts" on my ESPN app today, and they are all talking heads weighing in on coach K and Grayson's actions at the end of the game.

Also, just looking up, I see ESPN has Seth Greenberg talking about it with video... can't hear it, but it is getting serious air time.

It is becoming comical to me... I went through my disgusted phase, and anger phase, now I am just laughing at it all.... That's about all you can do...

superdave
03-25-2016, 12:41 PM
ESPN is about to release a story about Grayson visiting Disneyland ... and tripping Donald Duck.

TMZ has video.

The National Enquirer has the scoop on Allen being Ted Cruz's love child with Ivana Trump.

1999ballboy
03-25-2016, 12:42 PM
I think he's gone because it's a weak draft. Next year will be a very strong draft. That's it, really.

I think it's a stretch to think that the media will seriously impact his decision, even if it makes him uncomfortable.

DukeWarhead
03-25-2016, 12:44 PM
" I would estimate the chances of him leaving are at least 99.9%. "

oh, ye have little faith. I am clinging to a 25-33% chance of return. Hope springs eternal.

CameronBlue
03-25-2016, 12:46 PM
I think he's gone because it's a weak draft. Next year will be a very strong draft. That's it, really.

I think it's a stretch to think that the media will seriously impact his decision, even if it makes him uncomfortable.

But what does the following year's draft look like? Hard to project 2 years in advance but Grayson has options, he doesn't HAVE to be in this year's draft.

Wahoo2000
03-25-2016, 01:08 PM
I think he's gone because it's a weak draft. Next year will be a very strong draft. That's it, really.

I think it's a stretch to think that the media will seriously impact his decision, even if it makes him uncomfortable.

I think you nailed it. He could come back and even improve as a player, but have his stock drop due to:

a) MUCH deeper draft class next year - it's not even close. The quality of player selected in the 15-20 range this year probably wouldn't even go in the 1st round next year

b) NBA always drops you a little bit for every year older you get. (i.e. one player might be clearly better than another, but if the better player is 2-3 years older, they'll take the younger guy first)

Allen is a really good, borderline great player for you guys. That said, if he isn't back next season, I think Duke will be just fine with that recruiting class and a full offseason of development for Kennard and Thornton (plus it remains to be seen whether Jones will take a "senior leap" like Cook did, or similar to what it looked like Jefferson was about to do this year before his injury).

Really not looking forward to playing you guys next season - my one hope is that the chemistry just never quite gels, though with K in charge, that seems like a near-impossibility.

Wahoo2000
03-25-2016, 01:14 PM
But what does the following year's draft look like? Hard to project 2 years in advance but Grayson has options, he doesn't HAVE to be in this year's draft.

This is usually predicated on the strength of the previous year's HS senior class. The 2015 class was pathetic. After Ingram and Simmons, nobody really stood out as a star. The 2016 class is supposed to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper - both in star power, and to a slightly greater degree in depth. That means not only are there more "lottery locks" as one-and-done guys, but also more guys who may have been a little underrated who may leap up and move from borderline draft pick to lottery/top 20 lock.

Unfortunately for me, this also means almost all of your frosh class will "hit" next year. I bet DeLaurier will be much better as a frosh than Jeter was, despite the fact that they're about 30-40 spots apart in consensus rankings. Wouldn't surprise me if Jackson and Delaurier are ahead of Thornton and Jeter right out of the gate, though that's not a given.

jv001
03-25-2016, 01:15 PM
I think you nailed it. He could come back and even improve as a player, but have his stock drop due to:

a) MUCH deeper draft class next year - it's not even close. The quality of player selected in the 15-20 range this year probably wouldn't even go in the 1st round next year

b) NBA always drops you a little bit for every year older you get. (i.e. one player might be clearly better than another, but if the better player is 2-3 years older, they'll take the younger guy first)

Allen is a really good, borderline great player for you guys. That said, if he isn't back next season, I think Duke will be just fine with that recruiting class and a full offseason of development for Kennard and Thornton (plus it remains to be seen whether Jones will take a "senior leap" like Cook did, or similar to what it looked like Jefferson was about to do this year before his injury).

Really not looking forward to playing you guys next season - my one hope is that the chemistry just never quite gels, though with K in charge, that seems like a near-impossibility.

My hope from the Duke side is that we have a better defensive team than this year. We still had a problem with guarding people with the exception of the 4 game stretch in middle of conference play. Hopefully having Amile back will improve the defense a lot. But we need improvement from Kennard, Jeter, and Grayson(hoping he's back). We should be more athletic next season and that helps also. But your Cavaliers will be just fine. Maybe not FF fine but in the upper part of the ACC. GoDuke!

jv001
03-25-2016, 01:18 PM
This is usually predicated on the strength of the previous year's HS senior class. The 2015 class was pathetic. After Ingram and Simmons, nobody really stood out as a star. The 2016 class is supposed to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper - both in star power, and to a slightly greater degree in depth. That means not only are there more "lottery locks" as one-and-done guys, but also more guys who may have been a little underrated who may leap up and move from borderline draft pick to lottery/top 20 lock.

Unfortunately for me, this also means almost all of your frosh class will "hit" next year. I bet DeLaurier will be much better as a frosh than Jeter was, despite the fact that they're about 30-40 spots apart in consensus rankings. Wouldn't surprise me if Jackson and Delaurier are ahead of Thornton and Jeter right out of the gate, though that's not a given.

I hope you're correct in that assessment of Jackson and Delaurier. I'm think you might be correct about Jackson but I know nothing about Delaurier. GoDuke!

CameronBornAndBred
03-25-2016, 01:40 PM
Everyone on the board will need to understand that that the draft rules have changed. Players have until late May after the NBA "try-outs" (or whatever you call them) to take their name out of the selection process. This suggests to me that Grayson will put his name into the draft because he has plenty of time to be properly evaluated by NBA scouts. So we need not panic on this board when we see that he has declared for the draft. It would surprise me if he did not take advantage of the new rules.
This is why Calipari announced that every single eligible player on his team, including the walk-ons, is declaring. It makes little sense not to.


Just so you know, having every kid put their name in the draft is about all players getting the right information.


Players not invited to the combine know what that means. Players invited to the combine and told to to back to school know that that means.

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2016/story/_/id/15054473/john-calipari-all-eligible-kentucky-wildcats-players-enter-nba-draft

kAzE
03-25-2016, 01:43 PM
My hope from the Duke side is that we have a better defensive team than this year. We still had a problem with guarding people with the exception of the 4 game stretch in middle of conference play. Hopefully having Amile back will improve the defense a lot. But we need improvement from Kennard, Jeter, and Grayson(hoping he's back). We should be more athletic next season and that helps also. But your Cavaliers will be just fine. Maybe not FF fine but in the upper part of the ACC. GoDuke!

That's not a high bar to set. Our defense this year was statistically the worst Coach K defense ever, with the exception of 1995, which could be considered not a Coach K defense, due to him sitting out that year.

Harry Giles, if at full strength, is basically a lock to be one of the best defensive players in the country. His size, length, quickness, athleticism, and defensive instincts were already at elite levels for even a college player prior to his injury. He might be one of the rare players who can guard 1 through 5. Matt Jones is one of the best 1-on-1 defenders in the country, and Derryck Thornton projects to be a very good defender as well. We all know Amile is an elite defensive player due to his ability to communicate, as well as being a terrific defender in his own right. It will also help that Matt and Amile, who are almost certainly the co-captains of next year's team are both defense-first players. I don't think it's stretch to say that we should have one of the best defensive teams in the country next year, and certainly WAY better than this year.

Doria
03-25-2016, 01:47 PM
This is why Calipari announced that every single eligible player on his team, including the walk-ons, is declaring. It makes little sense not to.

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2016/story/_/id/15054473/john-calipari-all-eligible-kentucky-wildcats-players-enter-nba-draft

Oh man, I read that as "every single edible player on his team"... Not sure what that says about me, though I'm pretty sure what it says about my opinion of Calipari.

I think the defense is better next year almost no matter what, simply because with a deeper roster we can afford to play tough and challenge the drive more. We also will hopefully not run out of gas in the last ten minutes so often. Maybe it'll look rough at the start of the season, but I am optimistic it will round into good shape by late January or so.

cato
03-25-2016, 01:49 PM
Jason King is a sportswriter for Bleacher Report. He came over when BR made their attempt to "go legitimate", after being at ESPN and Yahoo for several years. Before that he was at the KC Star for 4-5 years, and has written a couple books on KU basketball. He's a Baylor grad.

No idea if he's making any of it up, but he's not just a random dude in the crowd. He probably had pretty good seats last night.

"attempt" being the operative word

DukieinSoCal
03-25-2016, 02:02 PM
I think you nailed it. He could come back and even improve as a player, but have his stock drop due to:

a) MUCH deeper draft class next year - it's not even close. The quality of player selected in the 15-20 range this year probably wouldn't even go in the 1st round next year

b) NBA always drops you a little bit for every year older you get. (i.e. one player might be clearly better than another, but if the better player is 2-3 years older, they'll take the younger guy first)

Allen is a really good, borderline great player for you guys. That said, if he isn't back next season, I think Duke will be just fine with that recruiting class and a full offseason of development for Kennard and Thornton (plus it remains to be seen whether Jones will take a "senior leap" like Cook did, or similar to what it looked like Jefferson was about to do this year before his injury).

Really not looking forward to playing you guys next season - my one hope is that the chemistry just never quite gels, though with K in charge, that seems like a near-impossibility.

I don't mind if Grayson's stock drops next year since it would make it more likely that he returns again for his senior year! Why can't he improve his stock while staying all 4 years, much like Buddy Hield? As he improves his all-around game and there are better pieces around him, he could become an even more efficient and player and go out on top as player of the year and maybe another title. I think too much was asked of Grayson this year and he had to force the issue at times. As scouts watch tape of the Oregon game and see how he struggled against bigger, more athletic players like the ones he'll face in the NBA, he could easily drop out of the first round. Unfortunately, last impressions seem to have a big impact on player evaluations.

HK Dukie
03-25-2016, 02:15 PM
If you were Grayson, here is what you might consider in your decision...

(1) one more year at Duke gets you a potential (IMHO > 50% chance) of jersey retirement
(2) a real shot to go back to the Final Four
(3) enhance your brand... all publicity is good publicity especially if you win
(4) another year of being BMOC and getting to be a kid for a little longer
(5) a degree without having to come back to school during your NBA career

(6) a chance to improve you draft status and therefore salary. DraftExpress doesn't even have Grayson in the top 25. #25's salary is $1.07m for a '16-'17 rookie. If he waits and improves his stock to #15 he gets $1.74m in '17-'18. Top 10 is at least $2.25m or more than double the #25 slot which he is not even projected for by DraftExpress. Even if Grayson were projected at #26 in the draft that probably only works out to a ~50% chance he would get selected in the first round as there are always a few prospects in the 30-45 range that get bumped up due to a team's particular interest. Also those late pickers in the first round go more by need as they are top level competitors and are likely to find someone who slots in well for them to give them the best chance to compete soon (except San Antonio which is happy to stash picks in Europe). Source: http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale

If you had a 50% chance of getting selected in the first round and getting a $1m paycheck for three years or you could improve your game for a year under a legendary coach and get all the benefits of #1-5 above but have to deal with the crap of ESPN and biased fans etc what would you do? Do you want to sit on the bench in the NBA or maybe not even get selected at all until the 2nd round and not make a team and go to the D-league? That is a very real possibility too. There is a lot to think about.

Therefore I don't think it is a 99.9% chance he will opt to leave and stay in the draft, but rather a 99.7% chance. Be 0.2% more optimistic friends!

wsb3
03-25-2016, 02:47 PM
I think Grayson returns & I have little to base that on. I do love that Buddy Hield has shown you can stick around four years & be drafted in the first round.

There is also your individual maturity. I really fail to understand why the NBA would prefer a system where they throw money to teen-angers as opposed to drafting a man with more experience on the court & hopefully a lot more maturity off the court.

BeachBlueDevil
03-25-2016, 02:56 PM
Am I the only one who thought Brooks wasn't trying to "embrace" Allen at all, but trying to walk through him (like the old Dr. Seuss story, Zax on Tracks)?

It seemed a little out of place for Brooks to try and embrace GA. I'd have done the same thing as GA and walked away from it. It was an emotional season where they left it out on the court every game and the last thing I'd think about is hugging this guy who was flexing and barking all night long.

Tom B.
03-25-2016, 03:07 PM
Also, who else is sick of Vern L. doing the Duke games. He had to say "stomp" a few times too referring back to his original call so many years ago.

Lundquist loves to get on his high horse about stuff like this. He's had a burr in his butt over the Laettner "stomp" for nearly a generation now (Lundquist called that game with Len Elmore). So the Allen stuff was right in his wheelhouse, and I'm sure he was happy to go along.

But man, talk about a guy who's past his prime (note to Verne -- no matter how many times you call him "Chris," his name is CHASE Jeter). I'm a little surprised he still gets the NCAA Tournament gig. I could see why CBS might dust him off once a year for the Masters, just for old times' sake -- but as far as his college basketball chops are concerned, his in-game ramblings are approaching Vitalian levels of incoherence.

Dukehky
03-25-2016, 03:10 PM
Lundquist loves to get on his high horse about stuff like this. He's had a burr in his butt over the Laettner "stomp" for nearly a generation now (Lundquist called that game with Len Elmore). So the Allen stuff was right in his wheelhouse, and I'm sure he was happy to go along.

But man, talk about a guy who's past his prime (note to Verne -- no matter how many times you call him "Chris," his name is CHASE Jeter). I'm a little surprised he still gets the NCAA Tournament gig. I could see why CBS might dust him off once a year for the Masters, just for old times' sake -- but as far as his college basketball chops are concerned, his in-game ramblings are approaching Vitalian levels of incoherence.

Everyone has made their way over to Happy Gilmore. Who the hell is Happy Gilmore?

Atlanta Duke
03-25-2016, 03:44 PM
Lundquist loves to get on his high horse about stuff like this. He's had a burr in his butt over the Laettner "stomp" for nearly a generation now (Lundquist called that game with Len Elmore). So the Allen stuff was right in his wheelhouse, and I'm sure he was happy to go along.

But man, talk about a guy who's past his prime (note to Verne -- no matter how many times you call him "Chris," his name is CHASE Jeter). I'm a little surprised he still gets the NCAA Tournament gig. I could see why CBS might dust him off once a year for the Masters, just for old times' sake -- but as far as his college basketball chops are concerned, his in-game ramblings are approaching Vitalian levels of incoherence.

Verne is still the lead announcer on SEC football, which is the college football cash cow for CBS - many sports viewers like familiarity and voices are how networks brand the product even after the broadcaster (Vitale, Packer) has been slipping for years. Coherence is just a bonus.

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2016, 03:51 PM
Everyone has made their way over to Happy Gilmore. Who the hell is Happy Gilmore?

Omg! That's he same guy! I'm shocked he's still alive!

duke79
03-25-2016, 04:21 PM
Lundquist loves to get on his high horse about stuff like this. He's had a burr in his butt over the Laettner "stomp" for nearly a generation now (Lundquist called that game with Len Elmore). So the Allen stuff was right in his wheelhouse, and I'm sure he was happy to go along.

But man, talk about a guy who's past his prime (note to Verne -- no matter how many times you call him "Chris," his name is CHASE Jeter). I'm a little surprised he still gets the NCAA Tournament gig. I could see why CBS might dust him off once a year for the Masters, just for old times' sake -- but as far as his college basketball chops are concerned, his in-game ramblings are approaching Vitalian levels of incoherence.

Yea, I used to like Verne....but I think he is definitely past his prime. I do think Jim Sparnarkle is a good analyst (other than his fairly heavy Jersey accent).

I'm amazed CBS can not come with some new announcing talent for these games.

WillJ
03-25-2016, 05:22 PM
Though it is largely innocent of college basketball, one of the three links suggested by my msn.com email home page was about Grayson "appearing" to refuse the handshake while another carps about K's "sanctimony" in lecturing the Oregon player. I think the Duke media hatred tsunami has jumped the shark. This bothers me if I think about it much, but I think the real lesson to learn is how much of the modern media (and to a lesser extent the media of the past) is about delivering little shots of schadenfreude and indignation to not well-informed readers....and not just about all things Duke, either. Take what you read about almost anything with a large grain of salt.

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2016, 05:36 PM
Though it is largely innocent of college basketball, one of the three links suggested by my msn.com email home page was about Grayson "appearing" to refuse the handshake while another carps about K's "sanctimony" in lecturing the Oregon player. I think the Duke media hatred tsunami has jumped the shark. This bothers me if I think about it much, but I think the real lesson to learn is how much of the modern media (and to a lesser extent the media of the past) is about delivering little shots of schadenfreude and indignation to not well-informed readers...and not just about all things Duke, either. Take what you read about almost anything with a large grain of salt.

IMO, the Grayson handshake was a BS story. Really nothing to see there.
Coach K, on the other hand, was in the wrong if he really said that (and based on lip readers, what he said wasn't nice).

Duke hate will always exist. But let's not give em more ammunition.

WillJ
03-25-2016, 05:44 PM
IMO, the Grayson handshake was a BS story. Really nothing to see there.
Coach K, on the other hand, was in the wrong if he really said that (and based on lip readers, what he said wasn't nice).

Duke hate will always exist. But let's not give em more ammunition.

I don't know if it was or was not a great moment for Coach K, but it's a bit amazing to me that two of the top five stories in all of sports deal with Duke's immediate post-game conduct. I guess the right response is no response.

jacone21
03-25-2016, 05:46 PM
The real irony is how those media people whine that Coach K shouldn't say anything negative to one young man, while they simultaneously assassinate the character of another young man.

And lip readers? lol Really? Coach K's lips don't even move much, and he always kinda looks like he's saying the f word.

You really just have to laugh at it all.

BD80
03-25-2016, 05:57 PM
... Coach K's lips don't even move much, and he always kinda looks like he's saying the f word. ...

Occam's razor.

Dukehky
03-25-2016, 06:28 PM
Occam's razor.

You can literally see Coach K say "You're a terrific player" twice to the kid and then nothing else. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!

BD80
03-25-2016, 06:38 PM
You can literally see Coach K say "You're a terrific player" twice to the kid and then nothing else. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!

I think the profanity allegedly occurred during the game when Brooks was showboating and/or trashtalking toward the Duke bench.

MCFinARL
03-25-2016, 07:01 PM
This whole "Duke Hate" thing is taking on a life of it's own.

I have had no less than 3 "alerts" on my ESPN app today, and they are all talking heads weighing in on coach K and Grayson's actions at the end of the game.

Also, just looking up, I see ESPN has Seth Greenberg talking about it with video... can't hear it, but it is getting serious air time.

It is becoming comical to me... I went through my disgusted phase, and anger phase, now I am just laughing at it all... That's about all you can do...

The good news is there are four more games tonight--and if we are lucky, something will happen in one of them that everyone wants to talk about.

jacone21
03-25-2016, 07:18 PM
The good news is there are four more games tonight--and if we are lucky, something will happen in one of them that everyone wants to talk about.

I would be okay with this headline.

"Hoosier Daddy? Roy Wiliams and Brice Johnson DQ'd! Heels lose by 40!"

Subheading... "Coach K: Brice Johnson is a Terrific Player."

SilkyJ
03-25-2016, 08:27 PM
This is usually predicated on the strength of the previous year's HS senior class. The 2015 class was pathetic. After Ingram and Simmons, nobody really stood out as a star. The 2016 class is supposed to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deeper

The OP was referring to the following year, i.e. after the 2017-2018 season, Grayson's senior season. It confused me at first as well.


Wouldn't surprise me if Jackson and Delaurier are ahead of Thornton and Jeter right out of the gate, though that's not a given.

Thornton was ranked in the 10-20 range (more like 10-15 IIRC) in the 2016 class before reclassifying, so he was rated right around the same spot as Jackson. You would think Thornton would be ahead of Jackson given he played 25mpg in the best conference in college for a year, but you could be right. Jackson's athleticism seems next-level and Thornton didn't quite meet expectations this year (Kennard was definitely ahead of him despite being ranked 10 spots lower...goes to show this HS ranking thing isn't an exact science.)



I'm amazed CBS can not come with some new announcing talent for these games.

Grant Hill was a new addition to the #1 announcing team with Rafftery and Nance only 1-2 years ago. And Shane was the sideline reporter (or whatever you call it) for that final four as well (not sure if he still has the gig).

SilkyJ
03-25-2016, 08:37 PM
All this talk of Grayson staying got me wondering how far he could climb up the scoring charts if he stayed all 4 years. With such a huge sophomore year scoring output of 21.6ppg, I figured he might actually be able to get pretty far, despite only scoring 4.4ppg his frosh year.

One of the biggest factors here is how many games is played each year. A run to the natty means 39-40 games usually. To be conservative, here's what his chances look like based on 36 or 38 games played each year (we played 36 this year, 39 last year)

To catch 36 games 38 games
JJ: 25.5 24.2
Dawkins: 22.6 21.4
Laettner: 21.2 20.1
Singler: 20.3 19.2
Gminkski: 19.3 18.3
Ferry: 17.0 16.1

The numbers above are PPG averages needed each of his junior and senior season based on 36 or 38 games being played each year.

So getting to #6 all time (Ferry) would almost be a lock, with #5 (Gminski) well within reach. Its tough to imagine Grayson's scoring up all that much--21ppg has gotta be one of the top 10-15 seasons in Duke history. And with all the talent coming in next year, I doubt we would rely on him nearly as much. You could see him having an even better season but scoring slightly less or roughly the same. If he stayed roughly the same, Laettner and Dawkins are in range, but he'd have to really up his scoring both seasons to catch JJ.

(doh that table does not look as good as it did when I typed it out...hopefully it makes sense. Let me know if not and I'll repost)

jimsumner
03-25-2016, 09:11 PM
All this talk of Grayson staying got me wondering how far he could climb up the scoring charts if he stayed all 4 years. With such a huge sophomore year scoring output of 21.6ppg, I figured he might actually be able to get pretty far, despite only scoring 4.4ppg his frosh year.

One of the biggest factors here is how many games is played each year. A run to the natty means 39-40 games usually. To be conservative, here's what his chances look like based on 36 or 38 games played each year (we played 36 this year, 39 last year)

To catch 36 games 38 games
JJ: 25.5 24.2
Dawkins: 22.6 21.4
Laettner: 21.2 20.1
Singler: 20.3 19.2
Gminkski: 19.3 18.3
Ferry: 17.0 16.1

The numbers above are PPG averages needed each of his junior and senior season based on 36 or 38 games being played each year.

So getting to #6 all time (Ferry) would almost be a lock, with #5 (Gminski) well within reach. Its tough to imagine Grayson's scoring up all that much--21ppg has gotta be one of the top 10-15 seasons in Duke history. And with all the talent coming in next year, I doubt we would rely on him nearly as much. You could see him having an even better season but scoring slightly less or roughly the same. If he stayed roughly the same, Laettner and Dawkins are in range, but he'd have to really up his scoring both seasons to catch JJ.

(doh that table does not look as good as it did when I typed it out...hopefully it makes sense. Let me know if not and I'll repost)

Duke has had 22 or 23 seasons in which someone averaged at least 21.0 ppg, depending on whether we count Tate Armstrong's senior season, when he averaged 22.7 in 14 games.

FWIW.

I think it's a moot point relative to Allen. Should he come back next season--60/40 IMO--I strongly suspect he would attempt to graduate in three years.

grossbus
03-25-2016, 09:21 PM
I claim no insight into how Grayson is dealing with the haters, but I hope he comes back next year so I can enjoy him sticking it to people.

If he is on track to graduate in 3 years, I think that would suggest a return.

SilkyJ
03-25-2016, 09:55 PM
Duke has had 22 or 23 seasons in which someone averaged at least 21.0 ppg, depending on whether we count Tate Armstrong's senior season, when he averaged 22.7 in 14 games.

FWIW.

I think it's a moot point relative to Allen. Should he come back next season--60/40 IMO--I strongly suspect he would attempt to graduate in three years.

Thanks, Jim. Tried to find a list but couldn't hack the server you and Kedsy share :)

I did find an all-time list for top scoring seasons in the NCAA: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/pts-player-season.html. Grayson's 779 points are 66th all-time, 1 spot ahead of Shane's senior campaign...

jimsumner
03-25-2016, 10:29 PM
Thanks, Jim. Tried to find a list but couldn't hack the server you and Kedsy share :)

I did find an all-time list for top scoring seasons in the NCAA: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/pts-player-season.html. Grayson's 779 points are 66th all-time, 1 spot ahead of Shane's senior campaign...

I have a data base to die for. Old school. Stacks and stacks of this stuff.

Just don't tell the fire marshall.

SilkyJ
03-25-2016, 11:21 PM
I have a data base to die for. Old school. Stacks and stacks of this stuff.

Just don't tell the fire marshall.

No doubt organized by the Sumner Decimal System, aka "dont touch that, I know exactly where everything is"

its gonna be a long offseason :cool:

BD80
03-26-2016, 05:33 AM
No doubt organized by the Sumner Decimal System, aka "dont touch that, I know exactly where everything is"

its gonna be a long offseason :cool:

Oh, but just imagine how great the summer pick-up games are gonna be ...

hudlow
03-26-2016, 10:42 AM
I couldn't help but think of the outrage that would have been generated if Grayson had put his knee into the back the head of a player on the floor like Happ did to Auguste last night in the waning moments of the Wiscy - ND game.

I might not have been intentional, but it sure looked convenient.

hud

CDu
03-26-2016, 10:47 AM
I couldn't help but think of the outrage that would have been generated if Grayson had put his knee into the back the head of a player on the floor like Happ did to Auguste last night in the waning moments of the Wiscy - ND game.

I might not have been intentional, but it sure looked convenient.

hud

True, though I would note that the officials blew that play all around. Auguste shoved Hayes out of the way to get to the loose ball in the first place.

captmojo
03-26-2016, 10:55 AM
Whatever young Mr. Allen decides, I support.
I would prefer he stay with the college level game for now, however.
I feel he has much more to learn about his own abilities and this is the better forum for that learning.

I honestly don't believe that there are any members of this team ready to make the leap to becoming professional.

Tom B.
03-26-2016, 11:01 AM
So yesterday my son asked me if Duke had won the game Thursday night. He's only four, so the game was on way past his bedtime. I told him that Duke didn't win, so their season was over and they wouldn't play again until the fall. His response: "When I grow up, I want to play basketball for Duke like Grayson Allen."

So Grayson, if the haters start to get you down, just remember....you've got a very big fan in this household.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-26-2016, 11:06 AM
Whatever young Mr. Allen decides, I support.
I would prefer he stay with the college level game for now, however.
I feel he has much more to learn about his own abilities and this is the better forum for that learning.

I honestly don't believe that there are any members of this team ready to make the leap to becoming professional.
The upcoming #1 pick begs to differ.

captmojo
03-26-2016, 11:09 AM
The upcoming #1 pick begs to differ.

He reserves the right to differ. My opinion doesn't change at this point.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-26-2016, 11:12 AM
He reserves the right to differ. My opinion doesn't change at this point.
Okay. I'll bite. Why do think BI is not ready? I assume you are talking about his game and that this is not going to be a diatribe on the emotional readiness of an 18 yr old for the rigors of the NBA b/c that ship sailed long ago.

gurufrisbee
03-26-2016, 12:18 PM
I think it's tricky because there is obviously a lot of room for Ingram to improve his game if he stayed 1-3 more years with the best coaching he's ever going to get. He is very talented but still pretty raw and there is a lot he could develop physically, mentally, as a leader, as a team player, defensively, etc..

Allen could improve in a lot of ways as well, but probably not as much because his ceiling is lower than Ingram's.

THe biggest difference is Ingram will definitely be a lottery pick (easily top five). THe money is guaranteed. Allen is questionable to even make the first round. THAT is a huge risk.

BluDvlsN1
03-26-2016, 12:55 PM
For what it’s worth for discussion purposes.

In my opinion Brandon will go and probably should based on his NBA value this year, it won’t
improve with another year, his game is ready, his body, maybe not as much.

What he needs is another year of physical growth to build muscle and stamina,that could extend
his career longevity.

He just can’t pass up his draft position this year.

Grayson, in my opinion should stay, he may be more physically strong, but there are things in his
game to fine tune to be better prepared for an NBA career. Another year should help his draft position
but thats a gamble based on next years crop.

My money would be on Grayson being in the thick of it with
more time.

There are a lot of personal advantages for him to stay both scholastically and career wise.
My impression is that is more his interest, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

The team in general and those two young men in particular, gave as much as could be asked of
individuals of any age, given the set of circumstances they were dealt!

mcdukie
03-26-2016, 03:18 PM
My question is will Grayson's value be any better next year? This season the scoring basically fell on him and BI which led to a great ppg average. Next season we would clearly be a much better team with him but now the ball is shared with Tatum, Giles, a better Kennard and even somewhat Amille so I'm sure his average will fall and he might not look as good as does now to the pros. I think it is 50/50.

JNort
03-26-2016, 03:19 PM
I think it's tricky because there is obviously a lot of room for Ingram to improve his game if he stayed 1-3 more years with the best coaching he's ever going to get. He is very talented but still pretty raw and there is a lot he could develop physically, mentally, as a leader, as a team player, defensively, etc..

Allen could improve in a lot of ways as well, but probably not as much because his ceiling is lower than Ingram's.

THe biggest difference is Ingram will definitely be a lottery pick (easily top five). THe money is guaranteed. Allen is questionable to even make the first round. THAT is a huge risk.
Yeah but he would improve quicker and easier in the nba than at Duke. At Duke he has school taking up a vast majority of his time where as the NBA it would literally be his job to improve in all of those areas. The only main reasons guys should come back to school is if they can improve their draft positions and Ingram can't improve on a top 2 pick.

JNort
03-26-2016, 03:21 PM
My question is will Grayson's value be any better next year? This season the scoring basically fell on him and BI which led to a great ppg average. Next season we would clearly be a much better team with him but now the ball is shared with Tatum, Giles, a better Kennard and even somewhat Amille so I'm sure his average will fall and he might not look as good as does now to the pros. I think it is 50/50.

He could show improved decision making, a better ability to finish through contact, passing, dribbling and better defense. Could easily go from fringe first rounder to lottery pick

Kedsy
03-26-2016, 03:53 PM
My question is will Grayson's value be any better next year? This season the scoring basically fell on him and BI which led to a great ppg average. Next season we would clearly be a much better team with him but now the ball is shared with Tatum, Giles, a better Kennard and even somewhat Amille so I'm sure his average will fall and he might not look as good as does now to the pros. I think it is 50/50.

I think analyses by NBA talent evaluators are significantly more sophisticated than "look at his scoring average." I think they're more interested in advanced stats and efficiencies, as well as eye test stuff like court vision, ability to handle, facility with both hands, etc. I'd be surprised if a decreased scoring average would bother them if his per-possession efficiency went up.


The only main reasons guys should come back to school is if they can improve their draft positions...

I vehemently disagree with this statement in principle, but agree that if your primary goal in college is to make the NBA and you're projected to be a top two pick then you should probably go.


Could easily go from fringe first rounder to lottery pick

Well, I don't know about easily. Grayson's not going to get any taller, which is why he's a fringe first rounder.

sagegrouse
03-26-2016, 05:10 PM
Yeah but he would improve quicker and easier in the nba than at Duke. At Duke he has school taking up a vast majority of his time where as the NBA it would literally be his job to improve in all of those areas. The only main reasons guys should come back to school is if they can improve their draft positions and Ingram can't improve on a top 2 pick.

Not to be an Old Fuddy-Duddy, but if Grayson, an Academic All-American this year, were to return next year and become a First-Team All-American on the court, his ceiling would be unlimited -- OUTSIDE of basketball. Moreover, an undergraduate degree is a requisite for college coaching.

I don't know any guys at Duke who have played two years and subsequently gotten a degree, although the more normal early exit is one year -- and none of those guys have completed college AFAIK.

NSDukeFan
03-26-2016, 07:56 PM
No doubt organized by the Sumner Decimal System, aka "dont touch that, I know exactly where everything is"

its gonna be a long offseason :cool:

It could be a fun sumner, err, summer if we get some more good stuff arranged from the Sumner Decimal System.

dukelifer
03-26-2016, 08:26 PM
My question is will Grayson's value be any better next year? This season the scoring basically fell on him and BI which led to a great ppg average. Next season we would clearly be a much better team with him but now the ball is shared with Tatum, Giles, a better Kennard and even somewhat Amille so I'm sure his average will fall and he might not look as good as does now to the pros. I think it is 50/50.

Well, Ted Cruz finally had to deal with the Grayson Allen look-a-like issues. He acknowledged that he doesn't have Grayson's hops.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25532043/ted-cruz-is-not-grayson-allen-im-proud-of-my-six-inch-vertical

Channing
03-26-2016, 09:51 PM
I think it's tricky because there is obviously a lot of room for Ingram to improve his game if he stayed 1-3 more years with the best coaching he's ever going to get.

In college he has limits on practice hours and other VERY time consuming obligations. In the NBA he has the opportunity to focus ONLY on basketball and getting his body in the best shape.

Furniture
03-26-2016, 11:55 PM
He could show improved decision making, a better ability to finish through contact, passing, dribbling and better defense. Could easily go from fringe first rounder to lottery pick

He could also get injured....

Doria
03-27-2016, 02:39 AM
Well, Ted Cruz finally had to deal with the Grayson Allen look-a-like issues. He acknowledged that he doesn't have Grayson's hops.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25532043/ted-cruz-is-not-grayson-allen-im-proud-of-my-six-inch-vertical

Hilarious, but does that mean Cruz is tacitly admitting it's possible he's the Zodiac killer?!

tbyers11
03-27-2016, 09:19 AM
Hilarious, but does that mean Cruz is tacitly admitting it's possible he's the Zodiac killer?!

Careful now. Don't bring that up again. Next thing you know, ESPN will be claiming that Grayson is the Zodiac killer :rolleyes:

BD80
03-27-2016, 10:53 AM
Careful now. Don't bring that up again. Next thing you know, ESPN will be claiming that Grayson is the Zodiac killer :rolleyes:

Uh oh. You just leaked the subject of the next 30 for 30 segment. That was top secret. I wouldn't opened any packages you receive with a Connecticut postmark.

Edouble
03-27-2016, 11:02 AM
Actually, a serious question... couldn't Grayson get taller?

I believe the long bones don't close off from growth until age 22 or so. It would be rare, but there is an outside chance that any player could continue to grow taller into their early 20s, IIRC.

Perhaps we should put it as he is "unlikely to get any taller," not that he "won't/can't get any taller."

dukelifer
03-27-2016, 11:40 AM
Actually, a serious question... couldn't Grayson get taller?

I believe the long bones don't close off from growth until age 22 or so. It would be rare, but there is an outside chance that any player could continue to grow taller into their early 20s, IIRC.

Perhaps we should put it as he is "unlikely to get any taller," not that he "won't/can't get any taller."

He can also get shorter- but that may not happen for a few more years.

CDu
03-27-2016, 11:43 AM
Actually, a serious question... couldn't Grayson get taller?

I believe the long bones don't close off from growth until age 22 or so. It would be rare, but there is an outside chance that any player could continue to grow taller into their early 20s, IIRC.

Perhaps we should put it as he is "unlikely to get any taller," not that he "won't/can't get any taller."

It is technically possible. It is certainly unlikely. I would say he is much more likely to improve his skill set than to grow taller.

JNort
03-27-2016, 12:01 PM
Not to be an Old Fuddy-Duddy, but if Grayson, an Academic All-American this year, were to return next year and become a First-Team All-American on the court, his ceiling would be unlimited -- OUTSIDE of basketball. Moreover, an undergraduate degree is a requisite for college coaching.

I don't know any guys at Duke who have played two years and subsequently gotten a degree, although the more normal early exit is one year -- and none of those guys have completed college AFAIK.

You are correct however the money he would make on his rookie contract if he were to flame out could easily pay for him to finish one more year of school if he wanted with plenty left over. Or he could play over seas and still make plenty

JNort
03-27-2016, 12:10 PM
I think analyses by NBA talent evaluators are significantly more sophisticated than "look at his scoring average." I think they're more interested in advanced stats and efficiencies, as well as eye test stuff like court vision, ability to handle, facility with both hands, etc. I'd be surprised if a decreased scoring average would bother them if his per-possession efficiency went up.



I vehemently disagree with this statement in principle, but agree that if your primary goal in college is to make the NBA and you're projected to be a top two pick then you should probably go.



Well, I don't know about easily. Grayson's not going to get any taller, which is why he's a fringe first rounder.

When I said easily I was referring to if the improvements I indicated happened then yes he would def become a top 20 pick. Right now we arn't even sure he will be picked first round (which is crazy to me, he is absolutely a 1st rd guy). Height can be overlooked if you have the talent.

Isn't every basketball player with NBA prospects looking to go pro? That's why these guys are going to school, to show off their talent for basketball. Some have it and some don't.

Kedsy
03-27-2016, 12:24 PM
Height can be overlooked if you have the talent.

I'm not sure if this is true in today's NBA. Players whose height does not match the expectation for the position they play generally either get drafted late or don't get drafted at all. And on the few occasions that an NBA team drafts a "tweener" with a lottery pick (e.g., Derrick Williams), they usually end up considered draft busts.


Isn't every basketball player with NBA prospects looking to go pro?

There's a difference between looking to go pro and having that be the only reason why you went to college. I assume at least some players are hoping to play in the NBA but expect/wish to remain in college longer than the minimum.


That's why these guys are going to school, to show off their talent for basketball.

Again, that's why some of them are going to school. Others could be going to school for multiple reasons.

BD80
03-27-2016, 01:26 PM
I'm not sure if this is true in today's NBA. Players whose height does not match the expectation for the position they play generally either get drafted late or don't get drafted at all. And on the few occasions that an NBA team drafts a "tweener" with a lottery pick (e.g., Derrick Williams), they usually end up considered draft busts. ...

Grayson is a great college player, extremely athletic. But he doesn't shoot well enough (yet) nor is athletic enough to immediately make an impact at the next level.

A comp may be Victor Oladipo, a Magic lottery pick. And the jury is still out.

Oladipo is a freak athlete, even by NBA standards, and has a huge wingspan. He is considered a potential lock-down defender.

Granted, Grayson could more quickly improve by going to the NBA and sitting on the bench, while making the most of the year-round job of training and working on basketball skills.

However, Grayson can improve his draft stock by improving his handle, his release, his accuracy, and his defense, all while staying in college. Much of the "improvement" will be from his body filling out. He is strong by college standards, but a feather-weight by NBA standards. Once he gets stronger, he will be better able to finish through contact and hold and maintain defensive positioning.

Emerrick
03-27-2016, 01:54 PM
Grayson just isn't getting the playing time he deserves. He should transfer to... Vanderbilt.
http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vanderbilt/2016/03/27/reports-kevin-stallings-pittsburghs-new-coach/82001626/

burns15
03-27-2016, 02:01 PM
Grayson is a great college player, extremely athletic. But he doesn't shoot well enough (yet) nor is athletic enough to immediately make an impact at the next level.

A comp may be Victor Oladipo, a Magic lottery pick. And the jury is still out.

Oladipo is a freak athlete, even by NBA standards, and has a huge wingspan. He is considered a potential lock-down defender.

Granted, Grayson could more quickly improve by going to the NBA and sitting on the bench, while making the most of the year-round job of training and working on basketball skills.

However, Grayson can improve his draft stock by improving his handle, his release, his accuracy, and his defense, all while staying in college. Much of the "improvement" will be from his body filling out. He is strong by college standards, but a feather-weight by NBA standards. Once he gets stronger, he will be better able to finish through contact and hold and maintain defensive positioning.

I disagree with this. Goduke.com lists Grayson at 6'5' 205, and according to this website http://pinwheelempire.com/p/nba/prototypical-size-vs-reality-in-the-nba/ the average size of an NBA starting SG is 6'5 1/4 and 209lbs. So it seems that Grayson would fall exactly in line with prototypical SG size in the NBA. Also, Grayson shot 42% from 3 PT range and 84% from the FT line this year, which would put him 11th in the NBA in 3pt shooting percentage (includes all positions), and 33rd in FT percentage (including all positions)

Now, I think Grayson's shooting percentages will increase slightly in the NBA given that he won't be the focal point of a defense like he was this year, and he will also have all year and day-round to focus on basketball (not school), even though the 3 point line is further in the NBA.

So, I actually think that Grayson's size and shooting ability are NBA-ready right now. I do agree that he could stand to improve his handle, and add a couple counters to his hard drives to the rim... but he is definitely ready shooting and physicality wise.

Henderson
03-27-2016, 02:18 PM
Granted, Grayson could more quickly improve by going to the NBA and sitting on the bench * * *.

Is this accurate? I'm not saying it's not accurate; I'm just saying it's not obvious to me. Little help? NBA players don't have to go to class etc., but the travel involved in playing 41 road games a year gobbles up a lot of time.

CDu
03-27-2016, 02:42 PM
Is this accurate? I'm not saying it's not accurate; I'm just saying it's not obvious to me. Little help? NBA players don't have to go to class etc., but the travel involved in playing 41 road games a year gobbles up a lot of time.

Getting to spend all of your time focusing on basketball is the #1 reason. Getting to work entirely with other NBAers is the #2 reason. It is just night and day different.

The college game doesn't prepare one for the NBA in much of any way other than giving an opportunity to showcase one's skills (which helps with draft stock).

Henderson
03-27-2016, 05:33 PM
The college game doesn't prepare one for the NBA in much of any way other than giving an opportunity to showcase one's skills (which helps with draft stock).

Really? So all that Coach K teaching, coaching, and mentoring is wasted on future NBA players?

I hadn't heard that from NBA players, but what would they know?

eddiehaskell
03-27-2016, 09:17 PM
Really? So all that Coach K teaching, coaching, and mentoring is wasted on future NBA players?

I hadn't heard that from NBA players, but what would they know?Im sure it helps a lot of players that might be fringe NBA players - Singler, Plumlees, Nolan, Lance, Seth, Duhon, Kelly, etc. However, for players that have an expected NBA value after just a short time - perhaps the skill benefit isn't as great - Brand, Okafor, Parker, Deng, etc. In today's basketball world, I bet there's no way guys like Christian and Grant stay 4 years. Many players grow up mentally during college which can certainly have life long benefits, but I'm not sure if skill wise the NBA can't do a better job at preparing them for the NBA. McRoberts might be a good example - a lot of us think he should've stayed, but he's been developed into a decent pro via the pro game.

Duke79UNLV77
03-27-2016, 09:47 PM
Getting to spend all of your time focusing on basketball is the #1 reason. Getting to work entirely with other NBAers is the #2 reason. It is just night and day different.

The college game doesn't prepare one for the NBA in much of any way other than giving an opportunity to showcase one's skills (which helps with draft stock).

I remember year ago I think it was Keith Van Horne who told Majerus there was very little time for practice in the NBA once the season starts if you aren't getting minutes. Think about it, with 82 games (I think the season should be shortened), how often and how hard can they practice? If you're not playing, or if you're wedged into a roll, most improvement may be in the offseason.

I'm not saying a number of players don't improve more in the NBA, but I think your categorical assertion is a big overstatement. I think Buddy Hield would be a good example of somebody who is better prepared for the NBA after time in college. Heck, Grayson is another example with his improvement between his freshman and sophomore years. Projected at the tail end of the 1st round, I can't see how it's a clear choice for him. Lord knows at UNC he'd come back.

subzero02
03-27-2016, 09:55 PM
Getting to spend all of your time focusing on basketball is the #1 reason. Getting to work entirely with other NBAers is the #2 reason. It is just night and day different.

The college game doesn't prepare one for the NBA in much of any way other than giving an opportunity to showcase one's skills (which helps with draft stock).

I disagree with this. Generally speaking, if you aren't getting playing time in the NBA, your chances to improve are limited. There's a reason talented young players get sent to the D-league.

Edouble
03-28-2016, 01:06 AM
I disagree with this. Generally speaking, if you aren't getting playing time in the NBA, your chances to improve are limited. There's a reason talented young players get sent to the D-league.

Chip Engelland says hello.

MCFinARL
03-28-2016, 08:27 AM
Im sure it helps a lot of players that might be fringe NBA players - Singler, Plumlees, Nolan, Lance, Seth, Duhon, Kelly, etc. However, for players that have an expected NBA value after just a short time - perhaps the skill benefit isn't as great - Brand, Okafor, Parker, Deng, etc. In today's basketball world, I bet there's no way guys like Christian and Grant stay 4 years. Many players grow up mentally during college which can certainly have life long benefits, but I'm not sure if skill wise the NBA can't do a better job at preparing them for the NBA. McRoberts might be a good example - a lot of us think he should've stayed, but he's been developed into a decent pro via the pro game.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with your examples (Singler, for example, might have gone higher in the draft had he left Duke earlier, and it's hard to know in retrospect whether he would have developed any less well over time had he done so), but your post points out something I have long thought about Duke basketball, especially during the years when it was being mocked for producing fewer pro stars than Carolina or, later, Kentucky. Anybody could have gotten Anthony Davis to the pros, just as anybody could have gotten Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, and now, presumably, Brandon Ingram to the pros. But the Duke program consistently produces players who aren't sure fire pros for one reason or another (size, speed, whatever) and gets them a shot--and some have really capitalized on that. If nothing else, their sound fundamentals, work ethic, and coachability get them in the door and then they do what they can from there. I'm hoping the same can still happen for Quinn Cook.

fraggler
03-28-2016, 10:00 AM
I'm not sure I agree 100% with your examples (Singler, for example, might have gone higher in the draft had he left Duke earlier, and it's hard to know in retrospect whether he would have developed any less well over time had he done so), but your post points out something I have long thought about Duke basketball, especially during the years when it was being mocked for producing fewer pro stars than Carolina or, later, Kentucky. Anybody could have gotten Anthony Davis to the pros, just as anybody could have gotten Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, and now, presumably, Brandon Ingram to the pros. But the Duke program consistently produces players who aren't sure fire pros for one reason or another (size, speed, whatever) and gets them a shot--and some have really capitalized on that. If nothing else, their sound fundamentals, work ethic, and coachability get them in the door and then they do what they can from there. I'm hoping the same can still happen for Quinn Cook.

Extremely well put.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-28-2016, 10:16 AM
Now, I think Grayson's shooting percentages will increase slightly in the NBA given that he won't be the focal point of a defense like he was this year, and he will also have all year and day-round to focus on basketball (not school), even though the 3 point line is further in the NBA.


I would argue the opposite, that playing against NBA caliber D, with excellent rim protectors on every team, and having to stay with an NBA guard on the other end of the floor, Grayson's FG % is almost certain to drop significantly.

I'd bet there's some intrepid individual out there who can look at the numbers, but it seems like comparing pineapples and grapes to me at best

fraggler
03-28-2016, 10:39 AM
I would argue the opposite, that playing against NBA caliber D, with excellent rim protectors on every team, and having to stay with an NBA guard on the other end of the floor, Grayson's FG % is almost certain to drop significantly.

I'd bet there's some intrepid individual out there who can look at the numbers, but it seems like comparing pineapples and grapes to me at best

I'd say it highly depends on the team he goes to. If he were a lottery pick, he'd likely go to a team that would expect him to carry more of a load on offense than he is ready for or capable of, leading to poor percentages. But if he does end up at the end of the first round (regardless of when he does it), there is a higher chance that he might go to a team that has a decent system and can put him in situations where he can thrive. On a marginally related note, his 3pt percentage, as excellent as it was this year, probably doesn't reflect how good a shooter he could really be - he took quite a few heatcheck/garbage 3s. I would be surprised if he couldn't pull of a season like Hield is having if he stayed another year. Maybe raw numbers wouldn't look as good, but his efficiency (already really good) could be insane. No longer making a case for whether he should go or stay, just putting out food for thought.

richmclean
03-28-2016, 10:42 AM
I dont see why Bradley Beal isnt a comp for Grayson.

1. Both are listed at 6'5' 205 lbs (although Beal was listed at 6'3" in college).

2. Beal averaged 14 ppg his year at Florida and shot 44% overall and 34% on 3 pointers.

3. Grayson averaged 21 ppg last year and shot 46% overall and 42% on 3 pointers.

4. Grayson plays well above average defense. If it wasnt for his plays on D in the tournament and final vs Wisconsin Duke is not national champs last year.

5. Yes his handle can improve but so could Beals per nbadraft.com (per http://www.nbadraft.net/players/bradley-beal.) : "Not a polished ball-handler, has yet to show a consistent ability to get to the rim off the dribble from the periemeter ... Won't often look to create for himself or others off the dribble ... "

Beal was the 3rd pick in the draft. Grayson not even a lottery pick?

BeachBlueDevil
03-28-2016, 10:52 AM
If Allen comes out he is going later in the 1st rd, somewhere between 25-30. DraftExpress as of today had him at 31 and going to Boston, so that would make him the first pick of the 2nd rd but I don't buy that projection.

Now, lets say he goes at 30 and to the Golden State Warriors. I've looked at their contracts and all of the guards that are on the bench either have expiring deals this year or in Shaun Livingston's case he has a team option. If they were to draft Allen and extend Livingston, he'd be the second guard off the bench and see a good amount of playing time. I also feel Allen would fit wonderfully in the Golden State system and on the surface looks like it would be a great no pressure environment for him to enter the league. I feel Allen would be an upgrade to what they currently have on the bench of Ian Clark, Brandon Rush and Leandro Barbosa.

DukeTrinity11
03-28-2016, 11:19 AM
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/

Givony, who is very well connected with NBA scouts and executives, has Grayson going #31 now to Danny Ainge's Boston Celtics.

If Grayson is indeed still a fringe 1st rounder after the Draft Combine is over, I am very confident that he will return to Duke for his junior year. It's extremely rare for a Duke player to jump to the NBA if he isn't guaranteed to be in the 1st round. Even Tyus Jones had a higher draft projection at this point last year than Grayson currently does and we all thought that Stones was only a 50/50 to leave Duke early.

Even if the draft is loaded next year, Grayson can come back and have an All-American caliber junior year while helping Duke win #6 and then get drafted towards the end of the 1st round by the likes of the Spurs or the Warriors.

I think that Grayson can be better than Danny Green and/or Harrison Barnes in the NBA, I really do.

kAzE
03-28-2016, 11:23 AM
I dont see why Bradley Beal isnt a comp for Grayson.

1. Both are listed at 6'5' 205 lbs (although Beal was listed at 6'3" in college).

2. Beal averaged 14 ppg his year at Florida and shot 44% overall and 34% on 3 pointers.

3. Grayson averaged 21 ppg last year and shot 46% overall and 42% on 3 pointers.

4. Grayson plays well above average defense. If it wasnt for his plays on D in the tournament and final vs Wisconsin Duke is not national champs last year.

5. Yes his handle can improve but so could Beals per nbadraft.com (per http://www.nbadraft.net/players/bradley-beal.) : "Not a polished ball-handler, has yet to show a consistent ability to get to the rim off the dribble from the periemeter ... Won't often look to create for himself or others off the dribble ... "

Beal was the 3rd pick in the draft. Grayson not even a lottery pick?

I believe Beal scouting report indicated that he was a better ball handler/play maker, and had more range/quicker release on his jumper. But that not enough of an advantage to put him 25+ projected picks ahead of Grayson. I'm as confused as you are. At least if Grayson goes pro, he'd be going to an established playoff team that will have great veterans to learn from. It's all about the 2nd contract anyways, and I don't think there's a single person who doubts that Grayson will work his butt off and make some serious cash after 3 years.

dukelifer
03-28-2016, 11:36 AM
I believe Beal scouting report indicated that he was a better ball handler/play maker, and had more range/quicker release on his jumper. But that not enough of an advantage to put him 25+ projected picks ahead of Grayson. I'm as confused as you are. At least if Grayson goes pro, he'd be going to an established playoff team that will have great veterans to learn from. It's all about the 2nd contract anyways, and I don't think there's a single person who doubts that Grayson will work his butt off and make some serious cash after 3 years.

It is all about perception and what folks think about projected growth as a player. Beal was quickly compared to Ray Allen and that perception stuck (ie he did nothing in his short time at Florida to change that perception.) Last year Buddy Hield was a second rounder- now some folks are putting in him in the top 10 based on how he has carried Oklahoma this year. Winslow won a lot of fans in the tourney last year. There is so little that separates very good players. The fact that Grayson struggled against the more athletic players at KY and Oregon did not help him, and some may be downgrading him as a result. Heck, if Marcus Paige averages 30 in the final four- he may be a first rounder. Outside the first few picks- it is all a crapshoot.

Tom B.
03-28-2016, 12:09 PM
Third-team NABC All-American.

First team is Malcolm Brogdon (UVa), Brice Johnson (UNC), Buddy Hield (Oklahoma), Ben Simmons (LSU), and Denzel Valentine (Michigan State).

Second team is Kris Dunn (Providence), Perry Ellis (Kansas), Georges Niang (Iowa State), Jakob Poeltl (Utah), and Tyler Ulis (Kentucky).

Third team is Grayson, Kay Felder (Oakland), Yogi Ferrell (Indiana), Josh Hart (Villanova), and Jarrod Uthoff (Iowa).

captmojo
03-28-2016, 12:14 PM
I think I was asked, in a thread about Allen, why I thought Ingram shouldn't go. It was expressed that I shouldn't say any of the "18 year-old age-development stuff" blah, blah, blah...Okay.

Has he developed a level of consistency?
Has he developed a body girth size that is considered as consistent to his height? Or, has he been proven not to be able for others to push around and out of his preferred position?

I don't follow the premise of, "What if he should get hurt?", argument. My experience with injury, the compensation NEVER matches the wish that I were still whole in body. No slight intended to our friends in the legal profession. I'd rather I had the same physical abilities I used to have.

johnb
03-28-2016, 12:41 PM
If Grayson squeezes into the end of the first round, he might have a million bucks saved after his initial contract ends. Or, if he buys a big house and car, he might have very little saved. Even if he lives like a college student for a few years in the NBA, the million would be a lot of money, but it's not enough to retire on--unless you live like Gandhi. Obviously, he might get that next big contract, but maybe he won't. And, either way, if he wants a high level career within organized basketball afterward, he likely needs a degree. This is why I thought Tyus may well have made a mistake. I don't know either of these guys, but if they want to coach or be a GM or be an announcer, then the Duke degree + NBA career may just be the single best pedigree in the world. I don't think a university or the NBA or CBS or ESPN are likely to hire one of our guys who leaves after a year or two; while that may not be Grayson's future, what else would he like to do age 30 or 35? Justise, Jah, and Kyrie and some of our other early entrants seemed destined to be NBA stars, but I can't offhand think of any of our guys who became NBA stars when they weren't early NBA picks. It's not like Duke players fly under the radar. Especially if Grayson likes the academic part of school (which he seems to), I'd think it economically preferable to stay another year, get the degree (or at least get close to it), and then capitalize on the experience during his NBA career and beyond.

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2016, 12:55 PM
If Grayson squeezes into the end of the first round, he might have a million bucks saved after his initial contract ends. Or, if he buys a big house and car, he might have very little saved. Even if he lives like a college student for a few years in the NBA, the million would be a lot of money, but it's not enough to retire on--unless you live like Gandhi. Obviously, he might get that next big contract, but maybe he won't. And, either way, if he wants a high level career within organized basketball afterward, he likely needs a degree. This is why I thought Tyus may well have made a mistake. I don't know either of these guys, but if they want to coach or be a GM or be an announcer, then the Duke degree + NBA career may just be the single best pedigree in the world. I don't think a university or the NBA or CBS or ESPN are likely to hire one of our guys who leaves after a year or two; while that may not be Grayson's future, what else would he like to do age 30 or 35? Justise, Jah, and Kyrie and some of our other early entrants seemed destined to be NBA stars, but I can't offhand think of any of our guys who became NBA stars when they weren't early NBA picks. It's not like Duke players fly under the radar. Especially if Grayson likes the academic part of school (which he seems to), I'd think it economically preferable to stay another year, get the degree (or at least get close to it), and then capitalize on the experience during his NBA career and beyond.

I see one huge difference between Grayson and a lot of other Duke players: Grayson is very academically inclined (2x Academic All-ACC in basketball, summa cum laude in high school). I'm not saying that Grayson is on par with the average Duke student (that is a very, very, very high bar. Let's give Duke students a lot of credit for their intelligence. Had I applied to Duke today, I doubt I'm getting in), but he is more academically-inclined than the average basketball player (yes. Even Duke basketball players).

If Grayson says, "I'm going to the NBA but will finish my Duke degree," I will absolutely believe him. When a lot Duke players who say that, I don't necessarily believe them. They may say and believe it at the time, but things change when you have a busy NBA schedule, a family, other obligations, etc.

MChambers
03-28-2016, 01:01 PM
Jason King is a sportswriter for Bleacher Report.

Isn't this an oxymoron?

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2016, 01:35 PM
Battier discusses how staying in school can hurt your stock. Nothing new, but interesting to hear it from a Duke legend who stayed 4 years in college.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=15083604

Channing
03-28-2016, 02:29 PM
Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but I recall one of the reasons bandied about as to why Tyus Jones left early is because last year was a weak draft and this years draft was expected to be very strong, and that even if he remained static, his draft position likely would go down because of better comparative talent. Clearly that did not come to fruition. That is also the exact same thing we are hearing about Grayson. I hope Grayson (a) has good advisors and (b) listens to those advisors and makes the decision based on how he feels today and not trying to prognosticate out 365 days to next year. On a side note, I hope NBA teams don't use the new rules to get in the heads of these kids and we land up with 45 kids who think they have been guaranteed a first slot.

JNort
03-28-2016, 03:01 PM
Perhaps I am remembering things incorrectly, but I recall one of the reasons bandied about as to why Tyus Jones left early is because last year was a weak draft and this years draft was expected to be very strong, and that even if he remained static, his draft position likely would go down because of better comparative talent. Clearly that did not come to fruition. That is also the exact same thing we are hearing about Grayson. I hope Grayson (a) has good advisors and (b) listens to those advisors and makes the decision based on how he feels today and not trying to prognosticate out 365 days to next year. On a side note, I hope NBA teams don't use the new rules to get in the heads of these kids and we land up with 45 kids who think they have been guaranteed a first slot.

Yeah this gets said every year and it's almost always wrong. Kind of like how every year people on here say "wow we are gonna have so much depth next year" or "we might have to use a 9 or 10 man rotation" or "our bench will be so good they would be like another top 25 team".

It's all garbage

eddiehaskell
03-28-2016, 04:02 PM
Yeah this gets said every year and it's almost always wrong. Kind of like how every year people on here say "wow we are gonna have so much depth next year" or "we might have to use a 9 or 10 man rotation" or "our bench will be so good they would be like another top 25 team".

It's all garbageI agree - same things every season. We also always have long, long discussions about how guys that are locks to leave might somehow stay. I remember 15+ page discussions about why Jabari might stay.

We could have more depth next year, but if Grayson leaves and/or someone gets injured/takes time to develop/transfers we are easily back to the usual 7 man rotation where endurance and foul trouble can be issues.

I try to not get too hyped about anything.

BTW - I think it would be a shame for Grayson to come out and fall to a high 2nd round pick. I think 2nd rounders only have 1 or 2 years of guaranteed money. Granted, I bet he could have a career worth millions overseas if it came to that.

Kedsy
03-28-2016, 04:25 PM
I think 2nd rounders only have 1 or 2 years of guaranteed money.

I'm pretty sure 2nd rounders get no guaranteed money.

sagegrouse
03-28-2016, 04:33 PM
I'm pretty sure 2nd rounders get no guaranteed money.

By rule, but Kyle Singler, for example, got a two-year guaranteed contract as a second-rounder.

S_West30
03-28-2016, 04:35 PM
Draft Express just released their newest mock draft Sunday - here it is: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/

They have Brandon going 1st to Philly and Grayson going just outside the first round at 31st to Boston.

While I think we can all agree that Brandon has certainly proven to be number one pick worthy, I'd almost want him to drop if it meant avoiding the eternal wasteland that is the 76ers organization. As for Grayson, there has been plenty of talk about guaranteed money based on placement and just as a frame of reference, Montrezl Harrell (32nd pick to Rockets last year) is making one million this year on a three year deal with the team. Kevon Looney, who was the last pick of the first round to the Warriors, is making 1.132 million this season. So there is a slight difference between being a first and second rounder when it comes to money. And while this year's class certainly has less talent than the 2017 group, I have to think Grayson can up his stock with another year in Durham under his belt into the first round. And even if it only by just a pick or two, I think it's worth it. That being said, next year's Duke team wouldn't need him to play hero ball all the time or play anywhere close to the whole game like he did down the stretch this year for them to succeed. So that lessening of the spotlight could potentially hurt him too.

It's a tough decision for a kid who has all the talent in the world, and I think whichever way he decides we can understand it. It's up to Allen to listen to all of his advisors and make the most informed decision possible that benefits him the most.

BD80
03-28-2016, 04:49 PM
By rule, but Kyle Singler, for example, got a two-year guaranteed contract as a second-rounder.

A couple of factors: Kyle "played ball" with the Pistons, and played a year in Spain, allowing the Pistons to retain his rights without sacrificing a roster spot. Then, the Pistons had competition for his services from the Spanish league. So the guarantee was part reward, part recognition of his improved value after a year overseas.

Duke79UNLV77
03-28-2016, 04:51 PM
By rule, but Kyle Singler, for example, got a two-year guaranteed contract as a second-rounder.

I think this chart helps: http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-draft-contract-values-2015-6

I assume that Kyle, as a second-rounder, got some guaranteed contract once he made the team. But, most second-rounders don't even make the team. Whereas, the chart shows that all first-rounders have true guaranteed money from the day they are drafted.

I think borderline falling to the 2nd round is pretty big deal, unless a team gives an assurance of a guarantee deal if it picks you in the 2nd round. Tyus initially looked to be in that spot last year, but then, after he fully demonstrated his, um, stones, his projection moved up safely into the 1st round. Even then, the clock for the 2nd contract starts ticking from day one, for better or worse. If you're not ready to contribute, that can be a bad thing, a la William Avery.

eddiehaskell
03-28-2016, 04:55 PM
I didn't realize Ingram is over 1 yr younger than Simmons. Seems like that could be a pretty big difference maker.

I also notice that UNC doesn't have a single player in the 1st round. What is that place...a wasteland for McDonalds all-Americans wishing to go pro? :)

Grayson looks way too close to 30th to make the jump.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-28-2016, 05:06 PM
Seems unlikely to me that Grayson goes pro if his stock is that close to the second round. Right now, about 60 dudes are being convinced they will go #25. I hope he gets sharp counsel.

Not having looked at the numbers, I would assume he would have an idea in mind of what sort of quantitative leap he would need to make for next year. Ie: I am staying, because if I play one more season I believe I can go from the 29th pick to the 18th pick, which will make financial sense.

Or, shoot, these are 20 year old kids. Maybe he is juat crazy enough to like college.

What is the hard and fast "get out" date?

ChillinDuke
03-28-2016, 05:18 PM
Yeah this gets said every year and it's almost always wrong. Kind of like how every year people on here say "wow we are gonna have so much depth next year" or "we might have to use a 9 or 10 man rotation" or "our bench will be so good they would be like another top 25 team".

It's all garbage

The first part of this post (bolded) is assuredly false. The draft last year was definitely not weak. The issue with Tyus was that he played so darn well and so darn clutch for so many darn games that there wasn't really anywhere for him to go but down. Very similar to a Marcus Paige situation. I'm relatively sure (haven't checked; I'm just that sure) that people round here thought Tyus should stay simply because this current year's draft was already pegged as comparatively weak. That said, any reasonable person understood that it would have been a risk had he stayed. His body type and athleticism wasn't a surefire NBA stud prototype. So watching him leave wasn't terribly unexpected or inexplicable.

The rest of the post is assuredly true.

- Chillin

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-28-2016, 05:23 PM
I also notice that UNC doesn't have a single player in the 1st round. What is that place...a wasteland for McDonalds all-Americans wishing to go pro? :)



Can a team with players like that make it to the Final Four?

sagegrouse
03-28-2016, 05:24 PM
I think this chart helps: http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-draft-contract-values-2015-6

I assume that Kyle, as a second-rounder, got some guaranteed contract once he made the team. But, most second-rounders don't even make the team. Whereas, the chart shows that all first-rounders have true guaranteed money from the day they are drafted.

I think borderline falling to the 2nd round is pretty big deal, unless a team gives an assurance of a guarantee deal if it picks you in the 2nd round. Tyus initially looked to be in that spot last year, but then, after he fully demonstrated his, um, stones, his projection moved up safely into the 1st round. Even then, the clock for the 2nd contract starts ticking from day one, for better or worse. If you're not ready to contribute, that can be a bad thing, a la William Avery.

I am virtually certain that Kyle, who played a year in Spain, got a two-year guaranteed contract with the Pistons. See, for example, BD80's post above.

eddiehaskell
03-28-2016, 05:44 PM
Can a team with players like that make it to the Final Four?Certainly seemed like the profile given to Duke for many years...great college team that can't produce/develop NBA talent. With recruiting dropping off, UNC may not have many studs they can keep for 3 or 4 years.

Hard to believe Paige and Johnson were never considered 1st rounders. Kinda funny how Duke and UNC swapped roles as far NBA production.

JNort
03-28-2016, 05:47 PM
The first part of this post (bolded) is assuredly false. The draft last year was definitely not weak. The issue with Tyus was that he played so darn well and so darn clutch for so many darn games that there wasn't really anywhere for him to go but down. Very similar to a Marcus Paige situation. I'm relatively sure (haven't checked; I'm just that sure) that people round here thought Tyus should stay simply because this current year's draft was already pegged as comparatively weak. That said, any reasonable person understood that it would have been a risk had he stayed. His body type and athleticism wasn't a surefire NBA stud prototype. So watching him leave wasn't terribly unexpected or inexplicable.

The rest of the post is assuredly true.

- Chillin

Well I did say "almost always" because sometimes it's the opposite but not that often. I mean last year's draft wasn't special I don't think. I'd have to go back and check but there were probably 6 solid upside guys and then it was a crap shoot. This year looks to be about the same with 7 solid NBA guys and another crap shoot

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2016, 05:55 PM
The first part of this post (bolded) is assuredly false. The draft last year was definitely not weak. The issue with Tyus was that he played so darn well and so darn clutch for so many darn games that there wasn't really anywhere for him to go but down. Very similar to a Marcus Paige situation. I'm relatively sure (haven't checked; I'm just that sure) that people round here thought Tyus should stay simply because this current year's draft was already pegged as comparatively weak. That said, any reasonable person understood that it would have been a risk had he stayed. His body type and athleticism wasn't a surefire NBA stud prototype. So watching him leave wasn't terribly unexpected or inexplicable.

The rest of the post is assuredly true.

- Chillin

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Last year's draft was quite strong, and everyone knew at this time last year that this year's draft was quiet weak.

And I'm with you on Tyus - he could only have gone down. He proved to be a good passer (5.6 assists per game), excellent ball handler (2.86 A/TO), and good shooter (38% from three, 89% FT. And the NBA puts more weight into FT shooting as an indicator for NBA 3pt shooting). His downside was speed, strength, and size, ie traits that you can't really improve in college. He also proved what he needed to prove at the highest level (MVP of the Final Four. Not bad). After winning it all, I was pretty confident that Tyus would go (and probably should go). I think he made the right choice.

JPtheGame
03-28-2016, 06:35 PM
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Last year's draft was quite strong, and everyone knew at this time last year that this year's draft was quiet weak.

And I'm with you on Tyus - he could only have gone down. He proved to be a good passer (5.6 assists per game), excellent ball handler (2.86 A/TO), and good shooter (38% from three, 89% FT. And the NBA puts more weight into FT shooting as an indicator for NBA 3pt shooting). His downside was speed, strength, and size, ie traits that you can't really improve in college. He also proved what he needed to prove at the highest level (MVP of the Final Four. Not bad). After winning it all, I was pretty confident that Tyus would go (and probably should go). I think he made the right choice.

I don't disagree with your conclusion. I totally disagree with the statement that you can't improve speed strength and size in college. I suppose we can fire every strength and conditioning coach in the pros and college. I mean just look at amile to start.

kAzE
03-29-2016, 10:37 AM
I don't think Allen necessarily has to be a full-time or even nominal PG to demonstrate that he has the skills to play the point at the next level. I do think he needs to demonstrate that he can be a more versatile scorer (e.g. mixing in pull-ups and floaters, using his left better) and creator for others (e.g. hitting cutters and rollers instead of mainly shooters on kick-outs) than he has shown to date, though.

THIS. This is how Grayson will improve his draft stock, NOT playing PG. Buddy Hield was a 2nd rounder last year. This year, he added an effective mid-range game in addition to his long range repertoire, and is being talked about as the #3 pick. Grayson is not a PG, he doesn't have the mindset to pass first. How many times did we watch him have a clear passing lane on a fast break to the other side of the court, but take it himself anyway?

I'm quite sure Grayson's basketball future is as a scoring guard. He might come in and handle the ball or bring it up the court, but the way he sees the game is not like you would want your point guard to see it. You want your point guard to make sure everyone gets touches and to keep everyone involved. Grayson is thinking about scoring. That's not a knock on him, that's just how he's wired. Also, putting Grayson on the ball more limits the number of spot-up shooting opportunities that he could get, which is by FAR the highest efficiency shot that he has. He's deadly off the catch. Not so much off the dribble.

COYS
03-29-2016, 11:18 AM
THIS. This is how Grayson will improve his draft stock, NOT playing PG. Buddy Hield was a 2nd rounder last year. This year, he added an effective mid-range game in addition to his long range repertoire, and is being talked about as the #3 pick. Grayson is not a PG, he doesn't have the mindset to pass first. How many times did we watch him have a clear passing lane on a fast break to the other side of the court, but take it himself anyway?

I'm quite sure Grayson's basketball future is as a scoring guard. He might come in and handle the ball or bring it up the court, but the way he sees the game is not like you would want your point guard to see it. You want your point guard to make sure everyone gets touches and to keep everyone involved. Grayson is thinking about scoring. That's not a knock on him, that's just how he's wired. Also, putting Grayson on the ball more limits the number of spot-up shooting opportunities that he could get, which is by FAR the highest efficiency shot that he has. He's deadly off the catch. Not so much off the dribble.

I think there can be a balance. I think that as Grayson improves his scoring ability, he will also improve his distribution. In fact, point guards who can't score are less effective distributors because defenses don't have to play them to score. As an example of this, I remember in the ACC Championship game in 2011 when we blew out UNC, Duke's defense took Kendall Marshall out of the game by taking away his passing lanes on drives rather than trying to block or alter his shots. The result was that he shot 3-10, had 5 turnovers and only 4 assists. Marshall was a great college point guard, but he wasn't a reliable scorer as a freshman. It limited his overall effectiveness against good defenses.

Grayson is at the other end of the spectrum, obviously. He's a scoring guard who has shown flashes of becoming a solid distributor. His assist numbers were solid this year, better than sophomore year Nolan who went on to lead the ACC in scoring while ranking second in assists by his senior year (and who notched a double-double in that ACC championship game with 20 points and 10 assists). As Grayson diversifies his scoring moves, defenses will have to defend him even tighter, which will create more and more opportunities for him to pass to open teammates. As Grayson improves his handle and begins to read the game better, he'll be able to add a wider variety of passes to his repertoire. He'll be able to make better passes on the pick n' roll, pass with his right and left hand off the dribble, and otherwise recognize defenses better. Grayson can continue to focus on scoring, but as long as he shows he can and will pass based on what the defense gives him, I think he can improve his stock. We've often said that Grayson is like a poor man's Dwayne Wade. I really do think that comparison works. Both players are scorers who can also set up teammates if a scoring opportunity doesn't present itself. Wade is obviously the far better player and has done more to develop his distribution skills, but I think Grayson can aspire to be Wade-like by pairing better passing with his already impressive driving ability.

MCFinARL
03-29-2016, 11:21 AM
The first part of this post (bolded) is assuredly false. The draft last year was definitely not weak. The issue with Tyus was that he played so darn well and so darn clutch for so many darn games that there wasn't really anywhere for him to go but down. Very similar to a Marcus Paige situation. I'm relatively sure (haven't checked; I'm just that sure) that people round here thought Tyus should stay simply because this current year's draft was already pegged as comparatively weak. That said, any reasonable person understood that it would have been a risk had he stayed. His body type and athleticism wasn't a surefire NBA stud prototype. So watching him leave wasn't terribly unexpected or inexplicable.

- Chillin

I agree with this. Tyus was the Final Four MVP last year. He got a chance to make a great case for himself on the biggest possible stage. From a draft position perspective, there was really no realistic chance for him to improve his position, even if he improved his game during another year in school. Maybe showing that he could play the same key role with a different cast of characters would have helped him a little, but what if he couldn't? What if the chemistry with Brandon, Grayson, etc. was not as good as the chemistry with Quinn, Jah, and Justise? Too much risk in staying.


Seems unlikely to me that Grayson goes pro if his stock is that close to the second round. Right now, about 60 dudes are being convinced they will go #25. I hope he gets sharp counsel.

Not having looked at the numbers, I would assume he would have an idea in mind of what sort of quantitative leap he would need to make for next year. Ie: I am staying, because if I play one more season I believe I can go from the 29th pick to the 18th pick, which will make financial sense.

Or, shoot, these are 20 year old kids. Maybe he is juat crazy enough to like college.

What is the hard and fast "get out" date?

Hard and fast "get out" date isn't until well into May, assuming no agent has been hired. And they get to go to the combine (if invited) and have some private interviews with teams. So there is a really good chance to get valuable information, in addition to whatever Coach K might be able to glean through his sources. As a borderline first or second rounder, Grayson seems like the perfect type of player to take advantage of these new, more player-friendly rules, so he can get a reasonable idea of where he stands and what specific areas of his game NBA types would like to see him improve. And he seems smart enough to actually hear and understand what he is being told and how much faith to put in it. I will be very surprised if he does not take advantage of the opportunity by declaring without hiring an agent.

COYS
03-29-2016, 12:24 PM
Hard and fast "get out" date isn't until well into May, assuming no agent has been hired. And they get to go to the combine (if invited) and have some private interviews with teams. So there is a really good chance to get valuable information, in addition to whatever Coach K might be able to glean through his sources. As a borderline first or second rounder, Grayson seems like the perfect type of player to take advantage of these new, more player-friendly rules, so he can get a reasonable idea of where he stands and what specific areas of his game NBA types would like to see him improve. And he seems smart enough to actually hear and understand what he is being told and how much faith to put in it. I will be very surprised if he does not take advantage of the opportunity by declaring without hiring an agent.

I don't disagree with your logic in the slightest, but it is worth pointing out that no Duke player has ever gone through the process, not hired an agent, and returned. I know the rules are different now and that might cause K to adapt how he advises his players, but it does seem like the staff is able to provide players with very accurate intel before they declare. Have we ever had a player decide to leave early for the NBA and fall out of the first round or even that much farther than their consensus projections? I can't think of any. McRoberts might be the only case of a Duke player declaring early and going in the second round, but there appear to have been many other issues at play in that situation. Otherwise, it seems like the staff was able to provide accurate information to guys like Gerald, Justise, Tyus, Deng who were most likely first rounders but not consensus top five picks. All of those guys went either higher or really close to their expected draft spot. Justise might have actually slipped the most, going at number 10, but I would hardly call that a mistake. I bet part of the reason these guys were able to get such good information is because the staff gave them good advice and they hired agents who helped them set up the right interviews and workouts to make sure that they could lock themselves into a draft spot.

Anyway, my guess is that if Grayson declares for the draft, he will follow in the footsteps of the Dukies that have come before him and go all in right away. But I could be wrong. Personally, I suspect he stays in school if only because the vast majority of drafts have him as either a late first round or an early second round pick and the risk does seem to be pretty high.

Kedsy
03-29-2016, 01:22 PM
Have we ever had a player decide to leave early for the NBA and fall out of the first round or even that much farther than their consensus projections? I can't think of any.

Carlos Boozer.

COYS
03-29-2016, 01:25 PM
Carlos Boozer.

Yes! Good one. Thanks for reminding me. I completely forgot about that. He left prior to widespread use of advanced statistics, which was too bad for him because his shooting percentages, rebound rate and overall college PER would have made him an obvious first round pick.

Edouble
03-29-2016, 01:27 PM
McRoberts might be the only case of a Duke player declaring early and going in the second round.

Boozer and Shav (although Shav went undrafted, but I think this is what you are looking for).

MChambers
03-29-2016, 01:47 PM
Josh McRoberts was the 37th pick in the draft. Different circumstances, however.

Channing
03-29-2016, 02:27 PM
importing a discussion from the McD Game thread, I think Grayson would thrive as a scoring facilitator. My unscientific observations were that he is a very willing passer. Earlier in the season he was driving and dishing on a regular basis, and I think he was the primary distributor to Plumlee on the alley-oops. While he scored because he had to score, I get the feeling he would be fine and would thrive at involving others.

Dev11
03-29-2016, 02:33 PM
Grayson takes a risk if he comes back to learn how to play point guard, in that if it doesn't work, he may waste a season watching his draft stock drop. I think he's a good enough defender and scorer that he could focus on some of the point guard skills between now and whenever he needs to decide to come back, hopefully improving enough that an NBA team likes the total package.

That said, being projected in the late first round is a scary proposition. If you lose that bet, you get a non-guaranteed contract situation with a likely bad team.

Henderson
03-29-2016, 03:31 PM
THIS. This is how Grayson will improve his draft stock, NOT playing PG. Buddy Hield was a 2nd rounder last year. This year, he added an effective mid-range game in addition to his long range repertoire, and is being talked about as the #3 pick.

It's not an uncommon thing. It also works the other way sometimes, with players slipping by staying. Recent ACC examples abound.

My take is that Grayson would likely improve his stock by staying. But I'm biased, and there are no guarantees. I can't fault GA whatever his choice. Tough to give up a guaranteed NBA salary for the uncertain prospect of more.

CDu
03-29-2016, 03:40 PM
It's not an uncommon thing. It also works the other way sometimes, with players slipping by staying. Recent ACC examples abound.

In fact, McRoberts would qualify as a guy who hurt his draft stock by staying (as a frosh) and yet also left to early (as a soph). Not unlike the path of James Michael McAdoo (though McRoberts was clearly better), although McAdoo let his stock tumble for an additional year.


My take is that Grayson would likely improve his stock by staying. But I'm biased, and there are no guarantees. I can't fault GA whatever his choice. Tough to give up a guaranteed NBA salary for the uncertain prospect of more.

I tend to agree, IF his stock really is late first/early second right now. I think he could return and develop in a way similar to that of Buddy Hield, who greatly improved his ability to shoot off the dribble. Right now, Allen is a spectacular set shooter and a capable finisher at the rim, but his ability off the dribble is still primarily straight-line drives. If he can broaden his horizons in terms of creating his own shot off the dribble (step-backs, turnarounds, etc.) he could move up as a SG.

Hield is a good proxy, but Ben Gordon is another one. Allen is probably an inch or two taller than Gordon, but has similar athleticism and shooting stroke. The difference is/was that Gordon was also terrific off the dribble and at creating space for his jumpshot with his ballhandling, whereas Allen isn't there yet.

Of courses, the flip side is that Allen could struggle to show that development, and then he's a year older and a year shorter on potential. So there's certainly a tradeoff.

Billy Dat
03-29-2016, 04:12 PM
I tend to agree, IF his stock really is late first/early second right now. I think he could return and develop in a way similar to that of Buddy Hield, who greatly improved his ability to shoot off the dribble. Right now, Allen is a spectacular set shooter and a capable finisher at the rim, but his ability off the dribble is still primarily straight-line drives. If he can broaden his horizons in terms of creating his own shot off the dribble (step-backs, turnarounds, etc.) he could move up as a SG.

Hield is a good proxy, but Ben Gordon is another one. Allen is probably an inch or two taller than Gordon, but has similar athleticism and shooting stroke. The difference is/was that Gordon was also terrific off the dribble and at creating space for his jumpshot with his ballhandling, whereas Allen isn't there yet.

Of courses, the flip side is that Allen could struggle to show that development, and then he's a year older and a year shorter on potential. So there's certainly a tradeoff.

Did you, or anyone, notice that starting in the NCAAs, Grayson actually unveiled a drive-into-midrange-lane-jumper? He wasn't always hitting it in the first two rounds, but he hit at least one and took maybe 3-4 total. He tried it against Oregon a few times and got it thrown back at him, but it did show me that he (and the coaches) are aware of the criticisms of his straight-line-drive predictability and were trying to add wrinkles. I also think that he was a willing and solid shot-creator for others. If he came back and developed these areas, he'd also take a lot of heat of the young studs as he'd continue as the program lightning rod.

Henderson
03-29-2016, 04:19 PM
In fact, McRoberts would qualify as a guy who hurt his draft stock by staying (as a frosh) and yet also left to early (as a soph). Not unlike the path of James Michael McAdoo (though McRoberts was clearly better), although McAdoo let his stock tumble for an additional year.



I tend to agree, IF his stock really is late first/early second right now. I think he could return and develop in a way similar to that of Buddy Hield, who greatly improved his ability to shoot off the dribble. Right now, Allen is a spectacular set shooter and a capable finisher at the rim, but his ability off the dribble is still primarily straight-line drives. If he can broaden his horizons in terms of creating his own shot off the dribble (step-backs, turnarounds, etc.) he could move up as a SG.

Hield is a good proxy, but Ben Gordon is another one. Allen is probably an inch or two taller than Gordon, but has similar athleticism and shooting stroke. The difference is/was that Gordon was also terrific off the dribble and at creating space for his jumpshot with his ballhandling, whereas Allen isn't there yet.

Of courses, the flip side is that Allen could struggle to show that development, and then he's a year older and a year shorter on potential. So there's certainly a tradeoff.


Did you, or anyone, notice that starting in the NCAAs, Grayson actually unveiled a drive-into-midrange-lane-jumper? He wasn't always hitting it in the first two rounds, but he hit at least one and took maybe 3-4 total. He tried it against Oregon a few times and got it thrown back at him, but it did show me that he (and the coaches) are aware of the criticisms of his straight-line-drive predictability and were trying to add wrinkles. I also think that he was a willing and solid shot-creator for others. If he came back and developed these areas, he'd also take a lot of heat of the young studs as he'd continue as the program lightning rod.

Excellent points about the potential to round out his game. I could imagine a scenario in which, this time next year, folks are saying about him, "He was good before, and he just keeps learning new ways to excel."

mr. synellinden
03-29-2016, 04:25 PM
Did you, or anyone, notice that starting in the NCAAs, Grayson actually unveiled a drive-into-midrange-lane-jumper? He wasn't always hitting it in the first two rounds, but he hit at least one and took maybe 3-4 total. He tried it against Oregon a few times and got it thrown back at him, but it did show me that he (and the coaches) are aware of the criticisms of his straight-line-drive predictability and were trying to add wrinkles. I also think that he was a willing and solid shot-creator for others. If he came back and developed these areas, he'd also take a lot of heat of the young studs as he'd continue as the program lightning rod.

This is precisely the leap that Gerald Henderson made from his sophomore to junior seasons. In fact, I think Henderson is an interesting NBA comp for Grayson. I am in the camp that Grayson would benefit greatly from another college season, particularly if it allows him to develop his ball handling/PG skills while also continuing to develop his mid-range game. I think he could go from a 20-35 pick and not guaranteed to be a 1st rounder to a possible late lottery pick. I think there is a lot to be said for showcasing the strengths of your game when you are not one of only two consistent options. The team should be loaded offensively next season.

CDu
03-29-2016, 04:30 PM
Did you, or anyone, notice that starting in the NCAAs, Grayson actually unveiled a drive-into-midrange-lane-jumper? He wasn't always hitting it in the first two rounds, but he hit at least one and took maybe 3-4 total. He tried it against Oregon a few times and got it thrown back at him, but it did show me that he (and the coaches) are aware of the criticisms of his straight-line-drive predictability and were trying to add wrinkles. I also think that he was a willing and solid shot-creator for others. If he came back and developed these areas, he'd also take a lot of heat of the young studs as he'd continue as the program lightning rod.

Yeah, I remember at least one such attempt. And I do suspect it was a part of his/coaches' awareness that he needs to expand his offensive game. That's not necessarily that they were doing so for the NBA, but it will help him be a better college player too.


Excellent points about the potential to round out his game. I could imagine a scenario in which, this time next year, folks are saying about him, "He was good before, and he just keeps learning new ways to excel."

Yeah, my big concerns with Allen coming into the season were that (a) he had not had to be the focus of a team's defense at all, and (b) he had not shown any "guile" in his game. I wondered if he'd struggle at times this year. Of course, he was SO good at straight-line drives and became SO good as a set shooter that, in conjunction perhaps with the rules changes which helped him get to the line more on those straight-line drives) he was able to be a prolific and efficient offensive player even with a somewhat unpolished offensive repertoire. If he were to come back and make the kind of jump in terms of scoring off the dribble that Hield has made, he would be darn near unstoppable.

That will take a lot of work, both on his ballhandling (he's a bit of a high dribbler, which limits the "crispness" of moves) and his ability to shoot jumpers in various dynamic situations from various spots on the floor, rather than stationary catch-and-shoot 3pt shots.

Everyone should go watch Buddy Hield in the Final Four, or go back and watch some of Hield's previous games. That's the kind of player Allen can hopefully become. And if he does so while still at Duke next year, we stand a great shot at a title because we'll have lots more talent around him than Oklahoma has this year (and Oklahoma still has good talent around Hield).

jv001
03-29-2016, 04:39 PM
Yeah, I remember at least one such attempt. And I do suspect it was a part of his/coaches' awareness that he needs to expand his offensive game. That's not necessarily that they were doing so for the NBA, but it will help him be a better college player too.



Yeah, my big concerns with Allen coming into the season were that (a) he had not had to be the focus of a team's defense at all, and (b) he had not shown any "guile" in his game. I wondered if he'd struggle at times this year. Of course, he was SO good at straight-line drives and became SO good as a set shooter that, in conjunction perhaps with the rules changes which helped him get to the line more on those straight-line drives) he was able to be a prolific and efficient offensive player even with a somewhat unpolished offensive repertoire. If he were to come back and make the kind of jump in terms of scoring off the dribble that Hield has made, he would be darn near unstoppable.

That will take a lot of work, both on his ballhandling (he's a bit of a high dribbler, which limits the "crispness" of moves) and his ability to shoot jumpers in various dynamic situations from various spots on the floor, rather than stationary catch-and-shoot 3pt shots.

Everyone should go watch Buddy Hield in the Final Four, or go back and watch some of Hield's previous games. That's the kind of player Allen can hopefully become. And if he does so while still at Duke next year, we stand a great shot at a title because we'll have lots more talent around him than Oklahoma has this year (and Oklahoma still has good talent around Hield).

Your post which I agree with, led me to ask this question regarding the NBA freedom of movement rule. Do the NBA officials enforce it the way college officials do? By that I mean, some games they enforce the rule and most games they don't. I don't know if Grayson at this point in his career can be proficient in driving to the basket in the NBA, but with the FOM rule being officiated correctly, it could help. Just wondering because I don't watch the NBA games until the playoffs. GoDuke!

Billy Dat
03-29-2016, 04:51 PM
Yeah, my big concerns with Allen coming into the season were that (a) he had not had to be the focus of a team's defense at all, and (b) he had not shown any "guile" in his game. I wondered if he'd struggle at times this year. Of course, he was SO good at straight-line drives and became SO good as a set shooter that, in conjunction perhaps with the rules changes which helped him get to the line more on those straight-line drives) he was able to be a prolific and efficient offensive player even with a somewhat unpolished offensive repertoire. If he were to come back and make the kind of jump in terms of scoring off the dribble that Hield has made, he would be darn near unstoppable.

That will take a lot of work, both on his ballhandling (he's a bit of a high dribbler, which limits the "crispness" of moves) and his ability to shoot jumpers in various dynamic situations from various spots on the floor, rather than stationary catch-and-shoot 3pt shots.

Everyone should go watch Buddy Hield in the Final Four, or go back and watch some of Hield's previous games. That's the kind of player Allen can hopefully become. And if he does so while still at Duke next year, we stand a great shot at a title because we'll have lots more talent around him than Oklahoma has this year (and Oklahoma still has good talent around Hield).

The Hield proxy is good because, in some ways, Buddy's emergence as a POY-level performer and draft riser almost gives Grayson permission to come back and work on his game without fear of lost opportunity (of course, there are no guarantees). Aside from the new stop-and-pop midrange, he also showed incorporation of the Harden-arms-extended foul draw. He wasn't as good at it, but it was intentional and he used it to create a lot of contact. If he can add more "guile", as you say, he'll be that much better. With Tatum looking at least as good as BI, if not better on offense, and the other scoring weapons we'll have, he should be able to shake loose a little more. We'd be really really hard to guard with Grayson back.

Billy Dat
03-29-2016, 04:54 PM
Your post which I agree with, led me to ask this question regarding the NBA freedom of movement rule. Do the NBA officials enforce it the way college officials do? By that I mean, some games they enforce the rule and most games they don't. I don't know if Grayson at this point in his career can be proficient in driving to the basket in the NBA, but with the FOM rule being officiated correctly, it could help. Just wondering because I don't watch the NBA games until the playoffs. GoDuke!

I think it's enforced more consistently and more strictly in the NBA. You really can't lay your hands on a driving guard, one of the reasons Steph Curry is so unguardable, and also one of the reasons it will be hard to ever consider anyone Michael Jordan's equal considering he was tackled and brutalized all game every game.

jv001
03-29-2016, 05:10 PM
I think it's enforced more consistently and more strictly in the NBA. You really can't lay your hands on a driving guard, one of the reasons Steph Curry is so unguardable, and also one of the reasons it will be hard to ever consider anyone Michael Jordan's equal considering he was tackled and brutalized all game every game.

Thanks Billy Dat for answering my question. As I said in my post, I don't watch many NBA games and then only ones with our Duke guys. Well, I do watch some of Steph's games. GoDuke!

AZLA
03-29-2016, 05:15 PM
I think it's enforced more consistently and more strictly in the NBA. You really can't lay your hands on a driving guard, one of the reasons Steph Curry is so unguardable, and also one of the reasons it will be hard to ever consider anyone Michael Jordan's equal considering he was tackled and brutalized all game every game.

Good point. There would be no Jordan Rules in the modern era.

BigZ
03-30-2016, 08:27 AM
I don't know if this means much but nbadraft.net now has Allen in the 2017 mock draft. He was previously in this years draft.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-30-2016, 08:55 AM
I don't know if this means much but nbadraft.net now has Allen in the 2017 mock draft. He was previously in this years draft.

I suspect that means nothing.

Even as someone who earnestly hopes he comes back, I would hope he would stick his toe into the waters and get some good feedback from GMs. The new rules almost encourage that, and it seems it would be a great tool for figuring out where the holes are in your game.

sagegrouse
03-30-2016, 09:00 AM
Grayson made third team on the AP All-American squad. He heads the list, so may have just missed second team.

Here's the entire list:

First Team
Hield -Oklahoma
Valentine - Mich State
Brice Johnson - UNC
Brogdon - UVa
Ulis - Ky

Second Team
Jakob Poeltl - Utah
Ben Simmons - LSU
Perry Ellis - Kansas
Kris Dunn - Providence
Georges Niang - Iowa State

Third Team
Grayson Allen - Duke
"Yogi" Ferrell - Indiana
Jarrod Uthoff - Iowa
Kay Felder - Oakland
Jamal Murray - Ky

I wonder how closely the AP A-A teams will match the NBA Draft order?

Breakout of the 15 players by conference:

ACC - 3
Big Ten - 3
Big 12 - 3
SEC - 3
PAC 12, Big East, Horizon - 1 each

flyingdutchdevil
03-30-2016, 09:19 AM
Grayson made third team on the AP All-American squad. He heads the list, so may have just missed second team.

Here's the entire list:

First Team
Hield -Oklahoma
Valentine - Mich State
Brice Johnson - UNC
Brogdon - UVa
Ulis - Ky

Second Team
Jakob Poeltl - Utah
Ben Simmons - LSU
Perry Ellis - Kansas
Kris Dunn - Providence
Georges Niang - Iowa State

Third Team
Grayson Allen - Duke
"Yogi" Ferrell - Indiana
Jarrod Uthoff - Iowa
Kay Felder - Oakland
Jamal Murray - Ky

I wonder how closely the AP A-A teams will match the NBA Draft order?

Breakout of the 15 players by conference:

ACC - 3
Big Ten - 3
Big 12 - 3
SEC - 3
PAC 12, Big East, Horizon - 1 each

Can't disagree with the first team, and the second team is really stacked. Grayson does belong with the second team moreso than the third team, but with 6 deserving players, one player had to get bumped. And the most unpopular player got penalized.

CDu
03-30-2016, 09:31 AM
The Hield proxy is good because, in some ways, Buddy's emergence as a POY-level performer and draft riser almost gives Grayson permission to come back and work on his game without fear of lost opportunity (of course, there are no guarantees). Aside from the new stop-and-pop midrange, he also showed incorporation of the Harden-arms-extended foul draw. He wasn't as good at it, but it was intentional and he used it to create a lot of contact. If he can add more "guile", as you say, he'll be that much better. With Tatum looking at least as good as BI, if not better on offense, and the other scoring weapons we'll have, he should be able to shake loose a little more. We'd be really really hard to guard with Grayson back.

Yeah, it's not just the midrange/stop-and-pop game, it's the ability to create separation on longer shots, too. The jab step/lean and then jumpback jumper is an example that Hield has added to his game is another. A hard crossover side-jump into a jumpshot is another. Turnaround jumpers a la Wade are another. He certainly doesn't need all of them, but adding one or two to his arsenal would make him more viable as a scorer at the next level.


I think it's enforced more consistently and more strictly in the NBA. You really can't lay your hands on a driving guard, one of the reasons Steph Curry is so unguardable, and also one of the reasons it will be hard to ever consider anyone Michael Jordan's equal considering he was tackled and brutalized all game every game.

I agree, although I'd add that the help defense is far better at the NBA level. The athletes are bigger and more athletic, and the team defenses tend to be better organized. So while Allen should benefit at the point of attack on the perimeter, he'll have a much tougher time scoring at the rim on those straight-line drives.

53n206
03-30-2016, 10:24 AM
Surprised that Brandon Ingram wasn't mentioned on the All-American team.

Kedsy
03-30-2016, 10:25 AM
I wonder how closely the AP A-A teams will match the NBA Draft order?

Not closely at all. They are measuring different things.

luburch
03-30-2016, 10:29 AM
Surprised that Brandon Ingram wasn't mentioned on the All-American team.

Hey received honorable mention.

killerleft
03-30-2016, 10:43 AM
Yeah, I remember at least one such attempt. And I do suspect it was a part of his/coaches' awareness that he needs to expand his offensive game. That's not necessarily that they were doing so for the NBA, but it will help him be a better college player too.



Yeah, my big concerns with Allen coming into the season were that (a) he had not had to be the focus of a team's defense at all, and (b) he had not shown any "guile" in his game. I wondered if he'd struggle at times this year. Of course, he was SO good at straight-line drives and became SO good as a set shooter that, in conjunction perhaps with the rules changes which helped him get to the line more on those straight-line drives) he was able to be a prolific and efficient offensive player even with a somewhat unpolished offensive repertoire. If he were to come back and make the kind of jump in terms of scoring off the dribble that Hield has made, he would be darn near unstoppable.

That will take a lot of work, both on his ballhandling (he's a bit of a high dribbler, which limits the "crispness" of moves) and his ability to shoot jumpers in various dynamic situations from various spots on the floor, rather than stationary catch-and-shoot 3pt shots.

Everyone should go watch Buddy Hield in the Final Four, or go back and watch some of Hield's previous games. That's the kind of player Allen can hopefully become. And if he does so while still at Duke next year, we stand a great shot at a title because we'll have lots more talent around him than Oklahoma has this year (and Oklahoma still has good talent around Hield).

Yes! "Guile", as you put it, would give Grayson everything he'd need to break down a defense. He certainly suffered against good defenses because of his two-dimensional game. Little jump-stops from short range would shake things up considerably. Add a little "syncopation" to his giddy-up style of play and Grayson not only has the potential to score even more (Gadzooks!), but he'll have time to see open teammates.

luburch
03-30-2016, 10:44 AM
I wonder how closely the AP A-A teams will match the NBA Draft order?

2014-15 All American teams:

1st team
Frank Kaminsky - 9th pick
Jahlil Okafor - 3rd pick
Jerian Grant - 19th pick
Willie Cauley-Stein - 6th pick
D'Angelo Russell - 2nd pick

2nd team
Delon Wright - 20th pick
Karl-Anthony Towns - 1st pick
Seth Tuttle - undrafted
Bobby Portis - 22nd pick
Malcom Brogdon - returned to UVA

3rd team
Kyle Wiltjer - returned to Gonzaga
Kevin Pangos - undrafted
Buddy Heild - returned to Oklahoma
Rakeem Christmas -36th pick
Georges Niang - returned to Iowa State

9/15 drafted (8 in the first round, 4 in the lottery)
2 undrafted
4 returned to school

Obviously a very small dataset.

jimsumner
03-30-2016, 11:09 AM
Surprised that Brandon Ingram wasn't mentioned on the All-American team.

Keep in mind that Ingram didn't make first-team All-ACC. It's tough to go from second-team all-conference to all-America.

MCFinARL
03-30-2016, 11:11 AM
I suspect that means nothing.

Even as someone who earnestly hopes he comes back, I would hope he would stick his toe into the waters and get some good feedback from GMs. The new rules almost encourage that, and it seems it would be a great tool for figuring out where the holes are in your game.

Maybe not lead with his toe, though, he might trip the waters. ;)

superdave
03-30-2016, 05:51 PM
If D'angelo Rusell were getting picked for a pickup game, he would not get picked today.



2014-15 All American teams:

1st team
Frank Kaminsky - 9th pick
Jahlil Okafor - 3rd pick
Jerian Grant - 19th pick
Willie Cauley-Stein - 6th pick
D'Angelo Russell - 2nd pick

2nd team
Delon Wright - 20th pick
Karl-Anthony Towns - 1st pick
Seth Tuttle - undrafted
Bobby Portis - 22nd pick
Malcom Brogdon - returned to UVA

3rd team
Kyle Wiltjer - returned to Gonzaga
Kevin Pangos - undrafted
Buddy Heild - returned to Oklahoma
Rakeem Christmas -36th pick
Georges Niang - returned to Iowa State

9/15 drafted (8 in the first round, 4 in the lottery)
2 undrafted
4 returned to school

Obviously a very small dataset.

cato
03-30-2016, 06:24 PM
If D'angelo Rusell were getting picked for a pickup game, he would not get picked today.

Iggy might be inclined to play

Pghdukie
03-30-2016, 07:07 PM
What a complete waste Simmons and LSU ended up. Total Waste.

lotusland
03-30-2016, 07:56 PM
If D'angelo Rusell were getting picked for a pickup game, he would not get picked today.

I don't watch any NBA ball but thought the Lakers were crazy for passing on Jah. However I glanced over an online article recently that argued that the Lakers made the right pick so I assumed Russell was playing well. Not so?

sagegrouse
03-30-2016, 08:08 PM
I don't watch any NBA ball but thought the Lakers were crazy for passing on Jah. However I glanced over an online article recently that argued that the Lakers made the right pick so I assumed Russell was playing well. Not so?

D'Angelo is averaging 13.1 PPG on 27.5 minutes per game. I understand he has been coming off the bench recently with 40 starts in 72 games. Rebounds are good for a guard at 3.4 per game. Assists are also 3.4, but turnovers are high at 2.3 and A/TO is only 1.4. He's a very young rookie at age 20.

Even before the recent nonsense -- OMG -- Byron Scott was supposedly on his case for acting like an 18 YO and at times like a 14 YO.

flyingdutchdevil
03-30-2016, 08:08 PM
I don't watch any NBA ball but thought the Lakers were crazy for passing on Jah. However I glanced over an online article recently that argued that the Lakers made the right pick so I assumed Russell was playing well. Not so?

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15095276/dangelo-russell-center-los-angeles-lakers-rift-video-took-nick-young-made-public

luvdahops
03-30-2016, 08:16 PM
D'Angelo is averaging 13.1 PPG on 27.5 minutes per game. I understand he has been coming off the bench recently with 40 starts in 72 games. Rebounds are good for a guard at 3.4 per game. Assists are also 3.4, but turnovers are high at 2.3 and A/TO is only 1.4. He's a very young rookie at age 20.

Even before the recent nonsense -- OMG -- Byron Scott was supposedly on his case for acting like an 18 YO and at times like a 14 YO.

Russell was moved back to the starting lineup in mid-February. Though his minutes did not go up dramatically, his numbers have been at least slightly better in most respects. Having seen the Lakers play a couple times during this stretch (once each versus the Bulls and Warriors), Russell's role vis-a-vis Jordan Clarkson (i.e. who is the PG and who is the SG) still seems unclear. He did show flashes of real talent at times, and no longer looks completely lost like he did in during the first 2-3 months of the season.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-30-2016, 08:20 PM
D'Angelo is averaging 13.1 PPG on 27.5 minutes per game. I understand he has been coming off the bench recently with 40 starts in 72 games. Rebounds are good for a guard at 3.4 per game. Assists are also 3.4, but turnovers are high at 2.3 and A/TO is only 1.4. He's a very young rookie at age 20.

Even before the recent nonsense -- OMG -- Byron Scott was supposedly on his case for acting like an 18 YO and at times like a 14 YO.

Sorta like Jah?

PalmettoExpat
03-30-2016, 08:48 PM
Sorta like Jah?

Jah messed up, and he knows it. His mistakes mostly affected himself more than anyone else when you get right down to it.

But I can't imagine a scenario in which Jah - or any of our Duke NBA players for that matter - pulls the crap Russell did to intentionally set up a teammate.