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hurleyfor3
03-24-2016, 11:17 PM
Bring it

SoCalDukeFan
03-24-2016, 11:27 PM
While Amile went down we became very very thin.

Great coaching job by K and staff.

Great heart and guts by everyone.

Advanced more than I thought.

Brandon - Great year at Duke. Good luck in the NBA. You will be a star

Marshall - Great 5 years at Duke. You are on of the best.

Grayson - Not sure what you are doing next year, but you will always be a hero because of last year's NC game.

See you next year guys.

SoCal

Doria
03-24-2016, 11:30 PM
It's hard to be real objective right now, but the one thing I am sure of is that watching this team fight through adversity, and maybe even grow up a little together, was really good times. Next season can't start soon enough.

Kjeffrey
03-24-2016, 11:31 PM
While Amile went down we became very very thin.

Great coaching job by K and staff.

Great heart and guts by everyone.

Advanced more than I thought.

Brandon - Great year at Duke. Good luck in the NBA. You will be a star

Marshall - Great 5 years at Duke. You are on of the best.

Grayson - Not sure what you are doing next year, but you will always be a hero because of last year's NC game.

See you next year guys.

SoCal

Marshall's improvement was so unexpected. He was such an important part of this year's success and I will miss seeing him in a Duke uniform.

wavedukefan70s
03-24-2016, 11:33 PM
Its all good.team gave all they had today.during part of the season we didnt look like we were going to make the tourney.we made it to the second weekend.not many brackets outside of duke fans had us penciled in. Even during a rebuilding year at that.with a very young and thin team we/they did great.im stoked.
We will miss plumlee and ingram.a big thank you goes out to those guys.i thank thornton for coming early.Duke had a very good year.
Im crossing my fingers grayson will come back.
Also id like to say that i enjoy chatting with you guys and girls.
My father passed a few years ago.
He was a bigtime duke fan.he did the iron dukes thing ect.
I had a hard time following duke after he passed.this board in particular helped me enjoy duke basketball again.
Thanks to all who post and make this place what it is.
Time for baseball and fishing....

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-24-2016, 11:35 PM
This thread probably never sees daylight, but I feel the need to express myself...

Ingram tried to take over, God bless him. No one seemed to step up and share the urgency. Have fun in the NBA Brandon, you were fun to watch.

Grayson - where were you tonight, buddy? Come back next year and stake a claim. I don't fault you not playing nice on the last play. Losing is supposed to hurt.

MP3 - what a crappy way to end your career; you deserved a better end to the Plumlee legacy.

Ducks - congrats. You bested us. I think OK might put a hurt on you.

Good night, board. Wish we all could commisserate here in our postgame.

CoachJ10
03-24-2016, 11:36 PM
Margins are so thin in college basketball. Amile's injury took us from having a chance to do something special and repeat to fighting and clawing every game.

It was enjoyable to watch players grow...but man, the "coulda been" feeling is still pretty raw.

DangerDevil
03-24-2016, 11:37 PM
Loved this team, but I was scared to watch them at times. I wish they had a couple more games and at least one more healthy player.

Hope I see Grayson in a Duke uniform again.

Good luck Brandon Ingram, make us proud!

Stay safe Marahall Plumlee, wear your Army Uniform as proudly as you have your Blue Devil jersey!

DtrainBuckshot
03-24-2016, 11:37 PM
This game may push Grayson to stick around. After tasting success last year he may opt to try again with a deeper sporting cast.

kAzE
03-24-2016, 11:38 PM
Well, while we're posting here, I can't say I'm really that upset. Oregon thoroughly outplayed us from start to finish and deserved the win. Congrats to them. We all knew this Duke team had limitations, and the youth of the (non-Ingram) freshmen really showed tonight. This ought to be a good learning experience for them. Hopefully this defeat will keep them motivated over the summer.

A sweet 16 for this particular team is a pretty nice year. Very sad to lose Marshall and Brandon . . . Thanks for all your hard work!!

SCMatt33
03-24-2016, 11:41 PM
I'll just reply here since I have thoughts written up but it's late and I don't know how long until the actual post game thread gets unlocked since I usually avoid this right after the season. Move as necessary:

So on the one hand, this team making the sweet 16 was pretty good, certainly better than I picked. In historical perspective, no team that won a title in the one and done era has yet gone farther than this (Florida's defended a title won in the last season before one and done) and half missed the tourney entirely. And in the end, they lost to a good team in their time zone, so no shame there.

It's just a bit dissapointing that they went out without a fight. Watching that game, you would have thought this was mid February and they were just getting ready for the next one. You never saw a fist pump or a "let's go" after a big play. You never saw anger or fire after a bad one, mostly apathy. It wasn't until the last minute when it was too late that you saw Marshall get fired up in the huddle on the floor. I heard that there was some fire during time outs, but that's not nearly the same.

I don't think Duke was going to win anyway as the lack of fire and passion should not be mistaken for a lack of effort, and Oregon was plain better, but you just get that little nagging feeling from the body language the guys had in this one.

El_Diablo
03-24-2016, 11:42 PM
Not bad for a rebuilding year...I honestly have not been less upset with a season-ending loss in quite a while (even though we played our "C" game tonight). I don't agree with the decision to lock the postgame thread preemptively, but that's why the mods get paid the big bucks, I guess! :)

Dev11
03-24-2016, 11:43 PM
I've been a somewhat knowledgeable Duke fan since the 2001 season (not related to success, just coming of an age), and this is the least I've ever been affected by a season ending loss. When was our last tournament game in blue uniforms? For one rare season, Duke was bested by a better team and I'm not sure things should have gone much better than they did. I'll expand on the next podcast, but I think given all this team had to deal with this season, I'm fine with the outcome.

luburch
03-24-2016, 11:44 PM
So I told myself at the start of the tournament that if this team could make it to the Sweet16 I would be happy and anything after that was gravy. I think that sentiment would have been true, if Duke didn't play the way they played tonight.

Oregon is certainly a good team, deserving of a one seed, but Duke made them look better than they were. Duke was intimidated by their size early and was scared on drives going forward. Didn't attack confidently, but tentatively. Defense was a mess the entire time. Poor rotations, poor on the boards, poor closing out.

I really loved this Duke team and their fight, tonight it just looked like they called it quits. That's what is the most disappointing.

Thanks to Ingram for everything this season. An absolutely amazing and unique player. It's been a pleasure to watch him in a Duke season.

Just sad to see the season end with a game like that.

Furniture
03-24-2016, 11:44 PM
I wanted to bitch about the Oregon player that through up the three at the end. What a wanker! K had some words with him about it and Grayson turned the other cheek too at the end on him. It was a bit strange the way he approached Grayson. Was he gloating or did he genuinely want to hug him?

S_West30
03-24-2016, 11:45 PM
It was an inopportune time for pretty much everyone but Ingram have an off night. Marshall never seemed to be able to play that tenacious D we're so accustomed to seeing him play after picking those 2 quickies in the first half (side note, Boucher is a matchup nightmare). Grayson look flustered all night and the shots simply weren't falling. Derryck went back to his old tendencies of playing way too fast, not just for the team, but for himself too. He was all over the place. And while Matt will get his fair share of scrutiny on here for his poor play, I'm adamant that his ankle never really recovered fully. That being said, can't expect to win when you get out-rebounded by 10 and shoot 44% from the field (felt much worse than that at times) and 32% from three.

This is a team that has outperformed themselves since December 9th with more ankle sprains and other miscellaneous injuries than any other season I can remember. The Plumlee era is officially over and after 8 great years new names and faces will have to fill that void left by some of the hardest working and most relentless players in Duke history. Brandon was incredible to watch, and his performance tonight was 1st pick worthy. It's amazing to think that in November that guy wasn't even starting, he sure has progressed in all facets of his game. For my own selfish reasons I hope Grayson stays for the 2016-2017 super team, but my gut says it's time for him to go. This one will sting for awhile, but the next time we see these guys suit up it'll likely be the most talented team in Duke history. Banner hunting season is now over. Until next time.

eddiehaskell
03-24-2016, 11:45 PM
Amazing how losing one non-superstar can totally change a season, but that's just how thin we were cutting it this year. How many games did we have MP3 somewhat restrained because we had no chance with him fouling out?

Stupid what ifs, but we probably lose ~6-7 games with Amile and get a #1 or #2 seed.

pokeresq
03-24-2016, 11:46 PM
I dont often post, but would feel remiss not to make a brief comment. This was far from our best or most talented team, but I cannot remember a team which made me more proud. The win in CH and the close loss in Cameron demonstrate why there is no rivalry which deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence as Duke-UNC. This year's team earned its place along with any of the more talented teams which have made that rivalry the best. We will be on the short list of favorites for the title next year, and I hope that K gets # 6, but let us all raise a glass to a team which always fought as hard as any Duke team I have had the pleasure to see.

FerryFor50
03-24-2016, 11:46 PM
Great season. Sweet 16 was an unexpected surprise.

I really felt like Duke had a chance to beat Oregon. After watching the game, I still feel like Duke could beat Oregon. But not a Duke team that couldn't really hit shots or FTs.

Some of that was Oregon's defense, but Duke had plenty of good looks and chances to cut into Oregon's lead in the 2nd half. But every time they looked like they'd make a run, they came up empty on the next possession.

Oregon also shot over 40% from 3. That didn't help.

Duke's defense was pretty much on par with what it was all season. Ok at times, bad at other times. And again, some bad luck possessions where they play good D and the other team hits an improbable shot at the end of the possession.

Luke came to play - he had a double double!

MP3 never got untracked - too much foul trouble. I felt like with how aggressive Oregon was going after blocks, MP3 could have had a big game on drive/dishes. But it was not to be.

GA disappeared the entire first half and never seemed in sync. That was the key.

Ingram played well - will be sad to see him go.

Oregon is going to get run out of the gym against Oklahoma, I think.

MartyMcJames
03-24-2016, 11:46 PM
Happy for Brandon to play well in his last game against two outstanding shot blockers. Brandon's post game press conference comments were wonderfully classy, will miss him.

GoDucks349
03-24-2016, 11:46 PM
Congrats on a great season. I know you guys had a lot of injuries this year and that always makes it tough. Wish you well going forward. Ingram is one serious stud.

ncexnyc
03-24-2016, 11:47 PM
To paraphrase a line from Casablanca, "We'll always have 2015."

With the unexpected defections of Winslow and Jones, coupled with the injury to Amile things just weren't meant to be this year.

The kids were game, but they just didn't have either the horses or the experience to pull it off, however they gave us some great basketball and they deserve our thanks.

gurufrisbee
03-24-2016, 11:48 PM
It's hard after a season like the one before this one to remember that MOST freshmen don't come in like Okafor, Tyus, and Winslow. Heck, most don't come in like Grayson did last year.

I think Kennard has some huge potential. He's too inconsistent now, but I love his game and when he gets some experience and consistency, he's going to explode.

Ingram is Ingram. He's always clearly been NBA track and he's not ready, but that's another debate for another day. He did a lot for us he'll be missed even though we all knew it would be this way.

I know there is a lot of frustration with Thorton and Jeter. Honestly, they probably never should have been guys we had to count on. But we were just that short this year. And I still think on a deep, typical Duke team they would have been great #8, 9, or 10 guys in the rotation. Maybe they can be next year.

I actually never thought Plumlee's improvement was unexpected. Not only have we seen multiple seniors who really commit to learning from great coaching and working hard make big jumps, but we watched his brothers also make big improvements as seniors, too. He was fantastic and will be missed.

I really hope Jones is still hurt and really hope he can get to 100% in the off season. I really didn't see a lot different from him than from Jeter. Not sure I can say anymore without getting threatened to be banned by Jones loving mods. Hopefully next year he'll make a senior leap and be healthy and be great.

Amile still breaks my heart. So many games this year we lost where we absolutely win with him. I'm more excited to see him next year than anyone.

Well, except maybe Grayson. I think we all knew he was going to blow up this year (compared to last) - and he did that and more. Not sure why he stopped driving in March - maybe he was beaten up, maybe he knew lousy refs like the Oregon ones would never give him any calls at all. I know I'll never be faced with his decision, but the choice between having a shot at being a Duke legend and all time great or risking being a 2nd round NBA pick two years early is a complete no brainer to me. He was so good all year. It's wild to think that if he comes back he has a chance to actually make it not even a close call about who was the best part of his recruiting class for Duke. He's been that great.

Obi. I still hope he can give us some more.

THe team was great and gave us a lot of great moments and kept fighting all season to overcome some major personnel losses. Very proud of them and very excited for their future.

GO DUKE!

Ian
03-24-2016, 11:48 PM
Oregon is a horrible match up for us. Sweet 16 is success for this year given their limitations.

toughbuff1
03-24-2016, 11:49 PM
We lost to a better team, it's as simple as that. There's no shame in it. Would it have made a difference if we had a healthy Amile? Maybe, but we didn't so there is no point in speculating. Hats off to Oregon, and I wish them well the rest of the tournament.

Thanks to Marshall for a great career, and Brandon for a great season. I hope Grayson comes back, I love watching him play. But if not, thanks to him too for a great two seasons.

ChillinDuke
03-24-2016, 11:52 PM
Well, can't say I agree we didn't fight.

We just didn't have it.

They got about where I thought they should get. The road was tough from here on out, we knew that. In the end, we just didn't quite have enough today, but probably the whole year.

Loved the team. Hats off, boys. Did me proud.

See you in the fall.

- Chillin

Kjeffrey
03-24-2016, 11:55 PM
I wanted to bitch about the Oregon player that through up the three at the end. What a wanker! K had some words with him about it and Grayson turned the other cheek too at the end on him. It was a bit strange the way he approached Grayson. Was he gloating or did he genuinely want to hug him?

K was asked about that in the post game presser. According to the reporter, Brooks said K told him he was too good a player to do that. K emphatically denied he said anything to him about it.

Furniture
03-24-2016, 11:55 PM
We lost to a better team, it's as simple as that. There's no shame in it. Would it have made a difference if we had a healthy Amile? Maybe, but we didn't so there is no point in speculating. Hats off to Oregon, and I wish them well the rest of the tournament.

Thanks to Marshall for a great career, and Brandon for a great season. I hope Grayson comes back, I love watching him play. But if not, thanks to him too for a great two seasons.

I really think this was a winnable game but we just had a bad day at the office! If Grayson shots above 20 this is a different result!!

O well!!!

Still really proud of the guys though!

I'm sad because I am just going to miss this for the next six months!

Mike Corey
03-24-2016, 11:57 PM
Lots of fight in this group of men. Lots of talent, too, but much of it yet to be realized in their young careers as basketball players. This was far from our best performance, and on this night, Oregon was better. Indeed, Oregon had much to do with this not being our best outing: Its length and ability to close gaps defensively was the difference all night long, IMO, and the Ducks had role players step up, to boot.

jipops
03-24-2016, 11:58 PM
It felt like this game ended at the 15 minute mark. Oregon got every single shot they wanted and actually missed some easy ones. We were never going to be a good defensive team with Amile out but the effort on defense was still disappointing. Just so many easy buckets for the Ducks. We squeaked by uncw and yale, so losing to a 1 seed (even a weak one at that) was kind of expected.

For a "bridge year", this was a pretty amazing season. It's actually kind of a bummer to think what might have been. If Amile doesn't go down we're as good as anyone, if not better. Between Amile's foot, Kyrie's toe, and Kelly's foot you would have a hard time convincing me we ldidn't lose out on at least one title due to injury. We lost our best interior defender, scorer, rebounder who was also a senior leader and still got this group playing mostly 6 guys with a bunch of freshmen into the sweet 16. I don't put as much stock in coaching as many do, but I think a lot of programs would fall short of accomplishing this with this roster. 2010 proved that the one down the road couldn't.

Instead of what might have been, what was, was still great. I'll take a sweet 16. I still remember my young days just wondering if Duke would make the NIT.

Best of luck to Ingram and Allen as they take it to the next level. And to Lt. Plumlee who drastically improved in his final season. 3 high quality kids right there. It's been great seeing them in a Duke uniform.

Furniture
03-24-2016, 11:59 PM
K was asked about that in the post game presser. According to the reporter, Brooks said K told him he was too good a player to do that. K emphatically denied he said anything to him about it.

You could see the kid saying to K something like "I know, my bad".

I think K and the team were really gracious in defeat! If someone has a link to the presser please post it.
Thanks...

toughbuff1
03-25-2016, 12:01 AM
I really think this was a winnable game but we just had a bad day at the office! If Grayson shots above 20 this is a different result!!

O well!!!

Still really proud of the guys though!

I'm sad because I am just going to miss this for the next six months!

I'm proud of the guys too, they showed a lot of fight. I think Oregon's athleticism and defense was a huge part of why we didn't shoot so well. It reminded me a lot of Kentucky early in the season.

El_Diablo
03-25-2016, 12:01 AM
Lots of fight in this group of men. Lots of talent, too, but much of it yet to be realized in their young careers as basketball players. This was far from our best performance, and on this night, Oregon was better. Indeed, Oregon had much to do with this not being our best outing: Its length and ability to close gaps defensively was the difference all night long, IMO, and the Ducks had role players step up, to boot.

Yeah, good teams make other teams look bad. They are athletic, played good defense and dismantled our zone. Maybe not a historically strong #1 seed, but I would not write them off against Oklahoma.

Native
03-25-2016, 12:01 AM
We just got straight-up beat. Would have liked to see more effort on the defensive end. And despite what many Dukies on the web might believe, we just didn't have the horses to make a much deeper tournament run this season.

Going to miss Brandon and Marshall for sure.

Kudos to Brandon for stepping up tonight and all season. I read an article in which an NBA Scout was quoted as saying that there's no limit to what Brandon can do in the league if this is the rate at which he's going to improve. Think back to the Brandon we had at the beginning of the season versus the one we've had late in the year. Proud of his improvement.

I think Grayson stays, but time will tell and that's just a hunch. Call that one a coin flip at this point.

It was a pleasure watching this team grow and fight through adversity. I think that growth is going to pay dividends down the line, particularly for Thornton, Jeter, and Kennard.

Next play. Forever Duke.

Kjeffrey
03-25-2016, 12:02 AM
You could see the kid saying to K something like "I know, my bad".

I think K and the team were really gracious in defeat! If someone has a link to the presser please post it.
Thanks...

The link was in the Chat thread. K seemed very annoyed when the reporter asked him about it. It was the last question he was asked.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 12:02 AM
You could see the kid saying to K something like "I know, my bad".

I think K and the team were really gracious in defeat! If someone has a link to the presser please post it.
Thanks...

Seeing a lot of discussion on Twitter about Allen not accepting the weird embrace by Brooks at the end of the game and people assuming he was mad about the last shot.

From Laura Keeley:


Grayson Allen said he had no problem with Brooks' late 3, guys showing emotion. "When you're winning, you can do stuff like that."

Most people are saying "but Duke plays to the final whistle" and naturally turning it around. But if we're being absolutely technical here, isn't hugging an opposing player with time still on the clock free throws?

eddiehaskell
03-25-2016, 12:03 AM
Anyone else think Plumlee could have a shot at a career playing pro ball overseas? He definitely has the size and heart.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 12:03 AM
Imagine this team with 2 or 3 of Tyus, Justise, Jalil, Sheed, or Amile?

If you don't want someone to jack a meaningless 3 at the end, either defend it or put yourself in a position for the shot to not be meaningless. No problem here.

Kjeffrey
03-25-2016, 12:04 AM
Seeing a lot of discussion on Twitter about Allen not accepting the weird embrace by Brooks at the end of the game and people assuming he was mad about the last shot.

From Laura Keeley:



Most people are saying "but Duke plays to the final whistle" and naturally turning it around. But if we're being absolutely technical here, isn't hugging an opposing player with time still on the clock free throws?

Maybe Grayson thought he would get called for a trip if he accepted the hug!

jipops
03-25-2016, 12:05 AM
Btw, the nail in the coffin was when Seth Davis picked us to win in pre-game. He is always wrong. Please don't pick IU Seth.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 12:06 AM
Imagine this team with 2 or 3 of Tyus, Justise, Jalil, Sheed, or Amile?

If you don't want someone to jack a meaningless 3 at the end, either defend it or put yourself in a position for the shot to not be meaningless. No problem here.

Or Jabari

gep
03-25-2016, 12:08 AM
Imagine this team with 2 or 3 of Tyus, Justise, Jalil, Sheed, or Amile?

If you don't want someone to jack a meaningless 3 at the end, either defend it or put yourself in a position for the shot to not be meaningless. No problem here.

I think I remember at least one game, maybe this season, that in this situation, the player on offense just held the ball and get the shot clock violation. After all, Duke was obviously not challenging anything at that point. Too bad... I was hoping the Oregon player would just take the shot clock violation. Oh well... Sweet 16... GREAT JOB

kAzE
03-25-2016, 12:09 AM
Does anybody have the link to the post game presser?

Edit: found it - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4TnLYnHamHc

eddiehaskell
03-25-2016, 12:09 AM
Happy for Brandon to play well in his last game against two outstanding shot blockers. Brandon's post game press conference comments were wonderfully classy, will miss him.Can anyone really say anything bad about him? Seems like a quiet /go to work kid considering he might be the #1 or #2 draft pick. Sorta reminds me of Kwahi Leonard's disposition. I'm sure many of us feel a little crazy for getting on him after those first 5 or 6 games, lol.

Billy Dat
03-25-2016, 12:09 AM
K talked a lot this year about how, as a young team, we often let lack of success on offense impact our defense.

Oregon made it hard for us tonight on offense, and our defense, which was weak most of the year, was weak again tonight. I thought we went zone to protect Marshall but then we stuck with it because I don't think we had anything else.

The bad end of the first half hurt us again. Grayson missed the front end of that one-and-one, we have a few turnovers and are down 5 instead of being up, tied or just down 1. They quickly push it to 9 at the start of the second and we could never quite get that one basket to cut it to 3, or later get it under 10. We have 5 or 6 opportunities like that and always came up short.

Credit Oregon, they were much better tonight. When they started to beat us to every loose ball with 12-14 minutes left in the game, it felt like it wasn't going to be our night.
(Meanwhile, Brooks' post-game comments included comments K made to him about not needing to show off when he is winning, that he is too good a player for that. Ugh. I guarantee that will blow back in tomorrow's media cycle once the transcripts hit. Right now, the focus is on Grayson blowing off Brooks' attempted hug at the buzzer.)

In hindsight, the Louisville-UVA-UNC road win streak was the high point of the season. Just when we slipped out of the rankings, we roared back and secured our NCAA spot. A run to the Sweet 16 feels right.

Thanks for a great career, Marshall. You stepped up in Amile's absence and were so much better than I thought you'd be.

Brandon, you were sublime. I hope you will be the #1 pick and still come back and play pick-up with the other NBAers each fall before training camp. The sky is the limit for you.

Matt, you fought hard and hurt and were a great leader. We'll need your veteran leadership and savvy next year.

Luke, you showed flashes of brilliance and seem supremely confident. It is up to you to find a solid role among next year's plethora of talent.

Derryck and Chase - the two young fellas - not a bad start. Derryck, you have a chance to command a battalion of weapons next year, work hard this off-season. Chase, you, too, came a ways and have a ways to go but I feel like you can make a huge leap next year.

Come on down Jayson, Harry, Frank, Javin and Jack.

Finally, Grayson, you were the man this year. Do what you gotta do, but we'd sure you love back as the face of the franchise next year (after K of course). You were as fine a front man as we have had - tough, fesity, fearless and ferocious. You know how to draw the blue line! Thanks for a great, great year.

Ultrarunner
03-25-2016, 12:21 AM
This has been a fun season and so full of both surprises and sudden challenges. As much as those kids probably hurt inside right now, they can bank on the fact they never quit. Very proud of all of them.

And a special mention for the end of the Plumlee era - Marshall did his brothers proud this season. It's been a great run with them.

Eternal Outlaw
03-25-2016, 12:22 AM
Very proud of this team, they gave us their heart and soul.

Kedsy
03-25-2016, 12:22 AM
This one will sting for awhile, but the next time we see these guys suit up it'll likely be the most talented team in Duke history.

I don't know. Duke has had some very talented teams.

KandG
03-25-2016, 12:26 AM
Thank you Duke, for a memorable year with many more ups than downs, and overcoming all the obstacles in the wake of a championship year and injuries that left Coach K with a depleted roster. I really enjoyed watching every player give it their all and evolve throughout the season.

On a different night, I think Duke could have been competitive with Oregon, but the Ducks were really impressive in the way they used their athleticism to attack our zone and make it look slow and labored. When you watch so many college teams get flummoxed by even the softest zones, the way the Ducks moved with and without the ball and found driving lanes and corner 3s everywhere has to be credited. At times we made them look like the Warriors, they were finding seams in the zone so smoothly.

All year the margin of error with this Duke team has been so thin, and tonight we just couldn't survive how young most of our guys played. I could easily list multiple turning points or bad breaks -- a bad turnover or a player dying on a screen and giving up a layup or a shot that went in and out -- but honestly, Oregon was the better team. We needed a great effort from multiple players and Oregon wouldn't allow it to happen. Kudos to them.

So long Brandon, Marshall, and (probably) Grayson. It was genuinely enjoyable watching you guys take over games and continue to improve dramatically. Looking forward to seeing all the other players be part of an even more formidable unit next season. I didn't have especially high expectations for this year's group and they exceeded them, so I was oddly relaxed for a Sweet Sixteen game. It's going to be different next season for sure.

Troublemaker
03-25-2016, 12:33 AM
Good season, with a lot of satisfying moments if you look back upon it and maintain perspective. Couldn't be prouder of how Marshall and Brandon improved in-season; they will be missed. (And if this was Grayson's final game, he of course did us proud all season as well. What a stud.)

While Duke could've played better, we definitely have to credit Oregon. A team that relies on the drive as much as Duke does NOT want to face an elite shotblocking team like Oregon; when they don't outright block the shot, they alter it. The Ducks are also a great transition team, which picks at another one of our weaknesses. Finally, to protect against fouls and drives, we had to zone them and hope that a mediocre shooting team would miss threes. Instead, to Oregon's credit, they hit the threes. To pull off an upset, we needed the favorite to shoot like us (7-22 from three) and we needed our underdog team to shoot like them (10-23 from three). Because the reality was instead reversed, that helped provide the comfortable cushion they enjoyed at the end.

grounds0405
03-25-2016, 12:33 AM
Thank you to our fighters! (Wayne's world chant -- "we're not worthy! we're not worthy!")

Obviously, this team was not the most talented, athletic, or experienced team. But I'm betting that, despite that we had a limited rotation of (6 + epsilon) players [and dammit epsilon grew over the course of the season], this had to be one of the most popular teams across the Duke fan nation. Coach K will never again get near a COY award because of his legacy, but we were blessed to see a masterful job of staying competitive in the nation's most competitive b-ball conference. But I can't forget Coach Capel's awesome turnaround victory in ATL at a pivotal point in the season.

What came together by the end of the season was so special to me, and I'll proudly hold my head high tomorrow!

My first salute must go to the 2LT. Marshall Plumlee grew up with dog-year speed (to answer the overly eager puppy critiques early on in his career). At the end of the long harsh road that is the ACC regular season, you led by example.

I'll miss when Brandon Ingram pulls off a smooth-as-hell spin move to the basket or snatches a rebound from crazy-far away or has a superquick deflection/block. ACan't wait to see what you still have up your sleeve.

But next year... (How sick would Ingram-Giles-Tatum-Jefferson-{Allen/Thornton/Jackson/Jones} be?). Even without Ingram (and likely Allen), we'll get to see Coach K mold a totally different team with lots of awesome pieces.

Nothing else but: "Thank you for one hellluva ride! Stay classy, Blue Devil Nation!!!"

DUKIE V(A)
03-25-2016, 12:38 AM
K was asked about that in the post game presser. According to the reporter, Brooks said K told him he was too good a player to do that. K emphatically denied he said anything to him about it.

Makes sense. It seemed to me that Brooks said, "My bad" several times if I read his lips correctly.

At any rate, two teams I certainly underestimated going into the tournament are Oregon and Villanova. Both look strong and have earned my respect.

As far as the season goes, lots of positives that I will remember including...

1. Plumlee's improvement. Throw it down big man, throw it down!
2. Grayson's grit and determination.
3. Ingram's improvement and overall unbelievable play (especially for a freshman). He seemed to benefit from coming to Duke, and I believe he is worthy of the first overall pick in the NBA draft. He is an impressive young man, and I look forward to watching his continued development on and off the floor.
4. Luke Kennard. Dude is going to be very hated by a lot of people.
5. Winning the Preseason NIT, and many great wins including Indiana, Louisville, UVA, and UNC.

Next season will be interesting and promises to be exciting...

1. Assuming he is healthy, Jefferson is going to be a huge help to next season. The sadness and disappointment I feel tonight is tempered knowing that he seems to be returning. I remember watching his classy press conference in which he committed to Duke like it was yesterday, and I find him to be a terrific all-around player, a tremendous teammate, and an honorable human being.
2. What will Grayson do? My gut tells me he comes back. Some things are worth more than money and he is going to make plenty whenever he decides it is his time. He can become a better player and person staying at Duke.
3. With perhaps Allen and possibly another big man recruit (who is still undecided), our team will be our deepest in a long, long time. It will be exciting to see Coach K adjust yet again.

Thanks Blue Devils for a great season and working so hard to overcome so many challenges. The end of the season always hurts (and success can sometimes be the road to misery), but I am thankful to DBR for being my therapy and to Duke Basketball for providing me and my family with so much joy. GO DUKE!

Coballs
03-25-2016, 12:44 AM
We lost to a much better team. It's as simple as that. Sometimes we just have to deal with it. I'll still take our program over any other. We won it all last year and I love our chances next season. November can't come soon enough for Duke basketball.

DUKIE V(A)
03-25-2016, 12:49 AM
Or Jabari

Or Rodney.

Wow! We have been blessed.

MartyMcJames
03-25-2016, 01:36 AM
We lost to a much better team. It's as simple as that. Sometimes we just have to deal with it. I'll still take our program over any other. We won it all last year and I love our chances next season. November can't come soon enough for Duke basketball.

Outstanding coached team. Next year maybe not so much. But agree Altmann is very under rated as a coach. West coast people know how good Altmann is.

Saratoga2
03-25-2016, 06:23 AM
Congratulations for a fine season with 25 wins for a team that suffered through the loss of Amile early in the season and an injury to Matt later on. The guys were young but very talented and played with a lot of tenacity and heart to make the sweet 16 when at one time people were concerned they might not make the tournament. Only one team can go all the way and it wasn't our year. Oregon is a very good team with a lot of fine athletes and are very well coached. We made a nice effort against them tonight and played hard for 40 minutes.

When Marshall picked up two early fouls we were put into a hole and had to play zone but probably would have done that anyway to reduce fatigue. Oregon had the coaching and shooters to exploit our zone defense and were also able to out rebound us by 10. Their defense was very solid and interior help defense and shot blocking made penetration difficult. Still we stayed in the game and had it within 10 late with Brandon just missing a 3 which would have made it interesting.

We needed a good offensive game from our big three scorers which I think we got along with a contribution from the other players, which we also got, but the defense was ineffective tonight. Brandon had an excellent game with 24 big points while Luke had 13 along with 11 rebounds (by far the team best) and Grayson came in with 15 points.

We came out of the season with 25 wins and a sweet 16 finish so I am proud of these guys and wish Brandon and Marshall the best of luck going forward. Hope Grayson stays but all that will unfold in the coming weeks.

vrob90
03-25-2016, 06:40 AM
I'm an Okie and they're my backup team. Hoping they put some hurt on the Ducks and I believe they might.

Ima Facultiwyfe
03-25-2016, 06:48 AM
It's the morning after........ I have to admit to going to bed and not watching when the announcers couldn't bring themselves to stop talking about anything but how dirty a player Grayson is. (I have a hard day ahead today and couldn't afford to get my panties in such a wad that I wouldn't be able to sleep.) These guys tick me off sooooooo much. Couldn't stop talking about the Laettner legacy and how awful Duke players' attitudes are and how K encourages it.

Now I'm reading here that there was some controversy at the end involving Grayson again?! I'll check it out. But, I can't blame him if he wants to get on with his life and out of this quagmire of insulting rhetoric perpetrated by heels and subscribed to by these bobble heads. Idiots. All idiots, bless their hearts.
Love, Ima

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 06:57 AM
Thank you young men of Duke University basketball for a wonderful season. It was a pleasure watching you come together as a team. That four game stretch when the season was on the line and you beat Louisville, UVA, UNC, and almost Louisville again was awesome. I look forward to watching the guys coming back and Brandon Ingram, thank you for your season at Duke you are an impressive young man and I cannot wait to see you represent Duke in the NBA. Grayson, we knew you were going to be good this year but not that good. Whatever you decide to do the Blue Devil fan base will be behind you.

I've been on these boards for 20 years and really enjoy this community. I look forward to all the offseason talk about minutes and recruiting and voting on summer blockbusters.

CDu
03-25-2016, 07:39 AM
K was asked about that in the post game presser. According to the reporter, Brooks said K told him he was too good a player to do that. K emphatically denied he said anything to him about it.

Really strange that Coach K would deny that when that is what the player said and that seems clearly like what was going on in the immediate postgame.

Channing
03-25-2016, 07:41 AM
Perhaps K said - "you are a really good player" and he heard "you are too good a player for that". IT was loud, emotions were high, and in that case, both guys would be justified in their reaction.

Duke76
03-25-2016, 07:43 AM
I wanted to bitch about the Oregon player that through up the three at the end. What a wanker! K had some words with him about it and Grayson turned the other cheek too at the end on him. It was a bit strange the way he approached Grayson. Was he gloating or did he genuinely want to hug him?


none of us really know what was said during the game at any time by Brooks or anyone else. it appeared they had a lot of smack talking going on so don't blame Grayson one bit. you gotta be a warrior on the court, within the rules. The tripping incidents really bothered me though. Can't understand it with Grayson especially in the Yale game...it almost looked so obvious, could it have been photoshop by someone?

Duke76
03-25-2016, 07:47 AM
Well, can't say I agree we didn't fight.

We just didn't have it.

They got about where I thought they should get. The road was tough from here on out, we knew that. In the end, we just didn't quite have enough today, but probably the whole year.

Loved the team. Hats off, boys. Did me proud.

See you in the fall.

- Chillin

Hope we've found our way out of the amusement park by now

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 07:47 AM
none of us really know what was said during the game at any time by Brooks or anyone else. it appeared they had a lot of smack talking going on so don't blame Grayson one bit. you gotta be a warrior on the court, within the rules. The tripping incidents really bothered me though. Can't understand it with Grayson especially in the Yale game...it almost looked so obvious, could it have been photoshop by someone?

Are you talking about the screen shot where he is defending Mason and feet tangle? Watch the entire clip because it is in the flow of the game and not tripping.

Furniture
03-25-2016, 07:49 AM
Really strange that Coach K would deny that when that is what the player said and that seems clearly like what was going on in the immediate postgame.

K was obviously keeping it between him and Brooks. It was a good teaching moment for that kid. K is just class through and through!

luburch
03-25-2016, 07:49 AM
Really strange that Coach K would deny that when that is what the player said and that seems clearly like what was going on in the immediate postgame.

My only thought is maybe that's not "exactly" what he said? Maybe K said something similar, but not to that extent? Beats me.

Steven43
03-25-2016, 07:53 AM
The good news--at least I think it's good--is we have Derryck Thornton for three more years! Seriously, there is no way I see Thornton getting anywhere near the NBA draft until his senior year.

His 3-point shot is average to below average. His passing can be good at times, but usually not. His decision-making is below average. And most surprising of all considering how he showed promise early on, his handle is poor. His defense is good at times, but needs a lot of work.

All that being said, I like Thornton and I hope he becomes a very good college player. I just think he was perhaps oversold by a lot of people. Who knows, maybe he will improve in all of these areas over the next six months before next season gets going. But I hoped the same thing for Matt Jones after his first two seasons and, well, I don't want to go there.

All that being said, I really like these guys as people and as Duke students, as least from what I know. They appear to represent the University well. I guess I just selfishly wish they would play better on the court.

I know that's kind of lame, as they don't owe me anything, but that showing last night was just sad. And it's the fourth very poor game Duke has had in the last six NCAA tournaments.

This one-and-done era is tough on the elite recruiting schools: no continuity, constant state of flux, starting over from scratch every year. It's truly a double-edged sword. Still, I'm hopeful for next season. If Matt and Derryck can improve their game, this team is going to be great. Now let's go Indiana!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 07:56 AM
My only thought is maybe that's not "exactly" what he said? Maybe K said something similar, but not to that extent? Beats me.

Or, possibly K said something in the heat of the moment that he walked back in postgame?

Regardless, I have zero issue with what Brooks did or what Grayson did. Competitive sports.

For anyone upset about Brooks draining the three - what would you have had him do instead? For anyone upset with Grayson - do you expect the emotion of playing poorly and losing to disappear with the horn?

Honestly, the only mishandling I see here is K. He is usually quick to praise the other players and then move on to talking about his team and the year they had. It seems out of character for him to react directly to Brooks like that, regardless of circumstance.

To Brooks' credit, he seemed to handle it professionally as well.

The only explanation I could see for his odd admonishment of Brooks, is that possibly it was a proactive move to protect Allen from another round of scrutiny and take the spotlight - but I acknowledge that is a bit generous to assume.

Fun season, boys. You gave us some good games, some fun memories, and a lot of reason for continued optimism.

CDu
03-25-2016, 07:58 AM
Very tough loss, especially because itvwas in large part due to us not playing well. We shot poorly, they shot better than normal, and that was roughly the difference in the score. But beyond that, it wasn't a well played game for us.

Great game by Ingram. Without his star power, this game looks even worse than it did. Best of luck to him at the next level. He is going to be a good one. It is just a shame he didn't get more help.

Kennard also had a good game. Just 1-5 on 3s, but he was good everywhere else. Hopefully he finds his 3pt stroke again next year. If he does, he will be dynamite.

Allen had a disappointing game for sure. His second half was very solid (12 points on 7 FGA), but he was nonexistent in the first half. Selfishly I hope he returns, but for him I hope he is able to make the best decision for his happiness. He had a strange year, with some moments he wished hadn't happened.

Tough final game from Plumlee. He was overmatched and didn't play well. He overachieved so much this year that it was disappointing to see him struggle at the end. Best of luck to him in the army. He was a fun presence and he bled Duke blue.

I suspect Jones wasn't fully healthy, but he had a poor game. Just didn't seem to have anything working. Hopefully he gets healthy and can provide senior leadership with Jefferson next year.

Thornton seemed to play nervous the entire game. He looked extremely shaky with the ball and made bad decisions. His struggles really illustrated the impact of Tyus Jones. Our best option at PG this year was one of our SGs and not the freshman PG. Hopefully Thornton has a great summer and comes back a more confident, ready player.

Jeter sort of falls in the same category as Thornton. He just wasn't ready. Next year he will likely have a similar role as a backup big. Hopefully he too has a great offseason.

On the one hand, it is tough to see the team fall short of their capabilities. We had the talent to play deeper into the tournament than this. On the other hand, we probably overachieved midseason in that Louisville/UVa/UNC stretch. Aside from that brief run of awesomeness, we pretty consistently played more like a 6-8 seed rather than the 4 seed we got. So maybe the loss to a better team was the appropriate end. Still hurts, but is certainly understandable.

gurufrisbee
03-25-2016, 08:09 AM
Brooks was a douche the entire game. Trash talking to that degree is pathetic. Not having sportsmanship to get in line and shake hands afterwards is never acceptable. He lowered his head to run people over during the game. He flopped on shots where he literally wasn't touched. Time and time again you see players with class just let the clock run out - you don't keep shooting. If you ask me, the reason his story and Coach K's story don't match up is because Brooks knows he was being a classless jerk and took Coach K's compliment and melded it into what he knew about himself and his behavior already.

And give it up about the tripping. Grayson isn't going to roll into the fetal position and wait til everyone leaves the building just so know one runs into him when he gets knocked onto the floor. He got tripped tonight more harshly than any of the trips he was so well known for giving this season. It's basketball and it's contact. And it's Duke haters.

Channing
03-25-2016, 08:21 AM
I have had some time to process and will share my .02:

(1) First and foremost, I am proud that I am a Duke fan. How spoiled that losing in the S16 is a disappointment! This season, however it ends, would be a program highlight for many schools (Oregon / OU / SU / IU etc.). If this continues to be the low water mark, I'm ok with that.

(2) I let my emotions get the best of me in the chat and voiced some observations about the quality of play of a particular player on our team. Certainly that wasn't meant to be a reflection of my thoughts of him personally, but only the quality of his play. As with most emotional outbursts, it would have been better left unsaid. That said, [I apologize if this is inappropriate here - but I have too often been guilty of not saying anything] there was an LGBT derogatory term used in the chat that I'm not sure if it was aimed at me or someone else, but it was certainly aimed at someone in particular. Given the current climate in NC (and without wading into the political realm), I think that no matter what it is important to identify use of derogatory terms and reiterate that they are unacceptable. Call me a wanker, a D-Bag, or an MFer ... but lets not belittle a group facing serious discrimination across the South (and country).

(3) BI is something else. Thrilled he wore a Duke basketball uniform this year. All I know about the kid is what I see on TV and what I have read, and he strikes me as the kind of guy you want in your program. Lord knows he had enough highlights this year, but I don't recall him preening or kissing his biceps or shooting fake arrows. He just grabbed his lunch pail and went to work.

(4) I think DT is going to be REALLY REALLY good. My impression is that he was TOO quick for his own good. Once he learns to play at the right pace (and he certainly got much better through the year, though he had his peaks and valleys) he will be stellar. It also looks like he has good fundamentals on his jumper, and if he can get that to be consistent he becomes an all ACC player as soon as next year.

(5) Grayson is a maniac in the best kind of way. This season he became more than any of us hoped for. I remember some pre-season threads cautioning too much optimism about him, but he delivered. Such a unique combination of skillsets - to get to the rim, finish through contact, or nail a jumper. Shame on the media for trying to beat down the kids spirit. That Yale clip about tripping thing was unconscionable. I wish one of the talking heads had the stones or the wherewithal to say something about i.

(6) We all know K typically plays a 7 man rotation, but that is with a lot of interchangeable parts. This season he was playing 7, but really it was Grayson, BI, Luke/Derrick/Matt, Plumlee/Jeter. Grayson and BI were never able to take a break, and Plumlee got negligible breaks towards the end. This 7 man rotations was fundamentally different than last years rotation.

(7) I think Chase has the skillset to be a really good big man. He has more of an offensive game today than Plumlee does today. As he grows into his body I fully expect him to be a good, if not dominant, ACC big man.

(8) Who knew a top-100 recruit changing from Stanford to Duke would be the start of a GREAT Duke legacy. Thank you Plumlee family.

Wander
03-25-2016, 08:28 AM
It turns out that the 1st place team in the Pac-12 is better than the 6th place team in the ACC. That's really all there is to it.

wsb3
03-25-2016, 08:30 AM
I was surprised last night to visit here & see a cool down period. We sure can get spoiled by the continued greatness of Duke Basketball. This season-after Amile went down could have easily gone the route of the NIT..I think what was accomplished this year is remarkable.

I said all along if we made it out of the first weekend it would be great. There was no way this team as thin *& challenged as the roster was had much of a chance to cut down the nets.

I try in times of disappointment to recall how many times for how many years I said..through 7 Final Four Trips before *8 paid off.

God, let me live long enough to enjoy just one NC. Last count is 5. I can't complain or at least I won't.

Kfanarmy
03-25-2016, 08:33 AM
This was really a 7 on 7 game...with Oregon having a little bit more experience in their starting lineup (a senior vs a junior and a Soph vs a Frosh)

Box score, reflects what my eyes were telling me....Oregon's bench, specifically Frosh Jordan Bell, outplayed Duke's. He was just way more integral to their offense when on the floor than either of Duke's bench players. Bench for Duke gave minutes, but not much more.

Chase was in a position several times to make big plays on the offensive end, but just couldn't find the handle...That will come I suppose.

Weird that Luke never got to the free throw line.

Kfanarmy
03-25-2016, 08:39 AM
... I let my emotions get the best of me in the chat and voiced some observations about the quality of play of a particular player on our team. Certainly that wasn't meant to be a reflection of my thoughts of him personally, but only the quality of his play. As with most emotional outbursts, it would have been better left unsaid. That said, [I apologize if this is inappropriate here - but I have too often been guilty of not saying anything] there was an LGBT derogatory term used in the chat that I'm not sure if it was aimed at me or someone else, but it was certainly aimed at someone in particular. Given the current climate in NC (and without wading into the political realm), I think that no matter what it is important to identify use of derogatory terms and reiterate that they are unacceptable. Call me a wanker, a D-Bag, or an MFer ... but lets not belittle a group facing serious discrimination across the South (and country). .

wow...just wow.

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 08:40 AM
I am disappointed we lost, but congratulations to the Ducks for playing out of their collective mind. OMG, it says in the box score that Oregon was 10-23 from three-point range -- it seemed like 18-23 to me. Also, the stats sheet says that reserve Jordan Bell only had three blocked shots -- it seemed like more. I responded to a comment on the Phase VII post that the Oregon Ducks play larger than their reported size -- too true, we came to learn.

Congratulations to Brandon Ingram for a boffo final act -- he showed what a special player he is.

Luke Kennard rallied from 1-7 in the first half to 6-12 for the game, in making all five of his shots in the second half. He also had 11, as in ELEVEN, rebounds. I hope this a springboard for a starring role next season.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 08:42 AM
(5) Grayson is a maniac in the best kind of way. This season he became more than any of us hoped for. I remember some pre-season threads cautioning too much optimism about him, but he delivered. Such a unique combination of skillsets - to get to the rim, finish through contact, or nail a jumper. Shame on the media for trying to beat down the kids spirit. That Yale clip about tripping thing was unconscionable. I wish one of the talking heads had the stones or the wherewithal to say something about it.

This is well put. I really think Duke's struggles at the end of the year were in part because of the short bench and the media's relentless pursuit to make Grayson the villain. I would say they should be ashamed of themselves but we all know that will never happen as long as there are clicks and ratings to be had.

CDu
03-25-2016, 08:44 AM
I am disappointed we lost, but congratulations to the Ducks for playing out of their collective mind. OMG, it says in the box score that Oregon was 10-23 from three-point range -- it seemed like 18-23 to me. Also, the stats sheet says that reserve Jordan Bell only had three blocked shots -- it seemed like more. I responded to a comment on the Phase VII post that the Oregon Ducks play larger than their reported size -- too true, we came to learn.

Congratulations to Brandon Ingram for a boffo final act -- he showed what a special player he is.

Luke Kennard rallied from 1-7 in the first half to 6-12 for the game, in making all five of his shots in the second half. He also had 11, as in ELEVEN, rebounds. I hope this a springboard for a starring role next season.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

Kennard was actually 3-7 at the half for 6 points. He went 3-5 in the second for 7 points. He was consistent throughout. It was Allen who really struggled in the first half (1-6) and came on stronger in the secon half (3-7, but drew more fouls and scored 12 points).

wsb3
03-25-2016, 08:56 AM
“I'm proud of my team. My team had just a great, great year.With the injuries and youth and limited guys, for them in our league to win 25 games, and get to the Sweet 16; just a terrific group. A terrific year, and proud of them.”
Read more at http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke-maxes-out-in-sweet-16-loss-to-oregon/15599256/#fdVIJ4FzAlTzGEed.99

Dukehky
03-25-2016, 09:08 AM
Or, possibly K said something in the heat of the moment that he walked back in postgame?

Regardless, I have zero issue with what Brooks did or what Grayson did. Competitive sports.

For anyone upset about Brooks draining the three - what would you have had him do instead? For anyone upset with Grayson - do you expect the emotion of playing poorly and losing to disappear with the horn?

Honestly, the only mishandling I see here is K. He is usually quick to praise the other players and then move on to talking about his team and the year they had. It seems out of character for him to react directly to Brooks like that, regardless of circumstance.

To Brooks' credit, he seemed to handle it professionally as well.

The only explanation I could see for his odd admonishment of Brooks, is that possibly it was a proactive move to protect Allen from another round of scrutiny and take the spotlight - but I acknowledge that is a bit generous to assume.

Fun season, boys. You gave us some good games, some fun memories, and a lot of reason for continued optimism.

There is a video of K talking to Brooks. All he says is "You're a terrific player, you're a terrific player" He doesn't scold him at all. K doesn't lie.

I'm just excited we don't have to see anymore tabloid ESPN coverage of this team for a couple months. I almost want Grayson to leave, he is the most mistreated college athlete I have ever seen, even Verne was killing him for not hugging a guy who just worked him for 40 minutes. Jesus, talk about pushing an agenda.

DukieTiger
03-25-2016, 09:18 AM
There is a video of K talking to Brooks. All he says is "You're a terrific player, you're a terrific player" He doesn't scold him at all. K doesn't lie.

I'm just excited we don't have to see anymore tabloid ESPN coverage of this team for a couple months. I almost want Grayson to leave, he is the most mistreated college athlete I have ever seen, even Verne was killing him for not hugging a guy who just worked him for 40 minutes. Jesus, talk about pushing an agenda.

Yeah, and regarding the "hug" - depending on the angle, it almost looks like Brooks was getting in his face. I'm sure it was just a little over the top and good natured, but to make it seem like Grayson refused him is just disingenuous.

kAzE
03-25-2016, 09:24 AM
It's crazy how much of a media stranglehold ESPN has on the sports world. About a week ago, I was talking to my mother, who never watches Duke basketball (my family are all UK fans), and we were talking about the tournament and at one point, we came to the subject to Grayson Allen.

Her impression of Grayson tells all. She literally knows nothing about the guy, and her only comment was "he seems like a bad kid." I HATE ESPN.

Dukehky
03-25-2016, 09:28 AM
It's crazy how much of a media stranglehold ESPN has on the sports world. About a week ago, I was talking to my mother, who never watches Duke basketball (my family are all UK fans), and we were talking about the tournament and at one point, we came to the subject to Grayson Allen.

Her impression of Grayson tells all. She literally knows nothing about the guy, and her only comment was "he seems like a bad kid." I HATE ESPN.

ESPN has become almost exclusively tabloid journalism. They can go eat a whole mountain of donkey feces

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 09:30 AM
There is a video of K talking to Brooks. All he says is "You're a terrific player, you're a terrific player" He doesn't scold him at all. K doesn't lie.

I'm just excited we don't have to see anymore tabloid ESPN coverage of this team for a couple months. I almost want Grayson to leave, he is the most mistreated college athlete I have ever seen, even Verne was killing him for not hugging a guy who just worked him for 40 minutes. Jesus, talk about pushing an agenda.

Are you kidding? With no games to focus on, this board is going to over-react to every single perceived slight in the media for the next 7 months. It's going to be exhausting.

We got our butts handed to us by a better team. Our season is over, and there are a few guys who will never play in a Duke uniform again. What the media thinks about Grayson turning away from an opponent after the buzzer is far beyond my concern at the moment.

I have a bad feeling about this board in the off-season. I sense there's a lot of seething that may come to light as we engage in some naval gazing and try to keep our minds busy waiting for more basketball. I sure hope I'm wrong.

ScreechTDX1847
03-25-2016, 09:33 AM
The good news--at least I think it's good--is we have Derryck Thornton for three more years! Seriously, there is no way I see Thornton getting anywhere near the NBA draft until his senior year.

His 3-point shot is average to below average. His passing can be good at times, but usually not. His decision-making is below average. And most surprising of all considering how he showed promise early on, his handle is poor. His defense is good at times, but needs a lot of work.

All that being said, I like Thornton and I hope he becomes a very good college player. I just think he was perhaps oversold by a lot of people. Who knows, maybe he will improve in all of these areas over the next six months before next season gets going. But I hoped the same thing for Matt Jones after his first two seasons and, well, I don't want to go there.

All that being said, I really like these guys as people and as Duke students, as least from what I know. They appear to represent the University well. I guess I just selfishly wish they would play better on the court.

I know that's kind of lame, as they don't owe me anything, but that showing last night was just sad. And it's the fourth very poor game Duke has had in the last six NCAA tournaments.

This one-and-done era is tough on the elite recruiting schools: no continuity, constant state of flux, starting over from scratch every year. It's truly a double-edged sword. Still, I'm hopeful for next season. If Matt and Derryck can improve their game, this team is going to be great. Now let's go Indiana!!

Maybe it is just me but you can tell that the rest of the team doesn't have much respect for Derrick's game. He is the PG and it seems to me that Grayson, Luke and Brandon all basically refuse to give him the ball to bring up the court after missed shots, etc. He calls for the ball in the backcourt and they rarely give it up to him. I've noticed this much of the season but it happened nearly every occurrence last night.

I honestly don't see Derrick as an impact player at any point in his career but might be a 'nice to have' guy over the course of his career for every reason you mention above. I just don't think there is a ton of natural talent there and he doesn't really have physical tools to make up for it.

kAzE
03-25-2016, 09:34 AM
Are you kidding? With no games to focus on, this board is going to over-react to every single perceived slight in the media for the next 7 months. It's going to be exhausting.

We got our butts handed to us by a better team. Our season is over, and there are a few guys who will never play in a Duke uniform again. What the media thinks about Grayson turning away from an opponent after the buzzer is far beyond my concern at the moment.

I have a bad feeling about this board in the off-season. I sense there's a lot of seething that may come to light as we engage in some naval gazing and try to keep our minds busy waiting for more basketball. I sure hope I'm wrong.

What? Why do you say that? We're 8 months out from having the privilege of watching one of the most talented Duke teams of all time. Just the minutes discussion will keep this board busy. We had a great season, what is there to be angry about? I'm annoyed at ESPN, but there's nothing to get up in arms over.

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 09:35 AM
Kennard was actually 3-7 at the half for 6 points. He went 3-5 in the second for 7 points. He was consistent throughout. It was Allen who really struggled in the first half (1-6) and came on stronger in the secon half (3-7, but drew more fouls and scored 12 points).

Yes, you are right. I misinterpreted the halftime stats (my computer converts 3-7 to "Mar-7" and I don't know how to stop it).

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 09:37 AM
What? Why do you say that? We're 8 months out from having the privilege of watching one of the most talented Duke teams of all time. Just the minutes discussion will keep this board busy. We had a great season, what is there to be angry about? I'm annoyed at ESPN, but there's nothing to get up in arms over.

We still have:

Marques Bolden recruiting
UNC losing (hopefully)
Duke football

Plenty to discuss.

rsvman
03-25-2016, 09:38 AM
Essentially, got outplayed and lost. No shame in it; it is what it is. I thought the turning point in the game was Marshall's second foul, a scant minute or two into the game.

When games are over I sometimes play the "what if" game in my mind. For this one, my "what ifs" were these: 1) What if Luke's first long 3 had gone in? and 2) What if Marshall hadn't picked up that first foul on the screen? Anybody ever read the book "Chaos" or study chaos theory? A lot of what it's about is a concept called "sensitive dependence on initial conditions." I kinda think that if Luke's 3 had swished and Marshall hadn't picked up that foul, the tenor of the entire game might have been completely different, and maybe (just maybe) we'd have come out of the game with a win.

But, what happened, happened. I'm not particularly surprised, nor am I particularly disappointed. Brandon was awesome. Good luck to him at the next level. I think he'll be really good.


Thanks to the team for a very interesting and enjoyable season.

azzefkram
03-25-2016, 09:41 AM
Great season guys. It was at times maddening but always a pleasure to watch this team grow and mature. MPIII what a great senior campaign you put together. Gosh I wish Brandon would stick around for another season. He is so fun to watch. Hopefully we get another year of Grayson. He was a beast most of the year. I am excited for year 2 of Luke, Derryck and Chase. Each of them made nice strides as the year progressed. Get healthy Matt and Amile. You two have a loaded team to help shepherd next season.

As for the game, it stings a bit because that was a team we could definitely beat. While they played well, I felt many of our issues were self-inflicted. We had a good team this year, but not a great one so our margin for error was pretty slim.

With respect to the shot, for some reason it didn't bother me. I thought he just threw it up there as the shot clock was expiring and it went in. Does anyone have a spare Tardis lying around so we can jump to November.

Henderson
03-25-2016, 09:41 AM
I have a bad feeling about this board in the off-season. I sense there's a lot of seething that may come to light as we engage in some naval gazing and try to keep our minds busy waiting for more basketball. I sure hope I'm wrong.

Mtn.Devil, you're one of my favorite posters. But I think you're wrong about this. I think folks 'round here are going to get excited about the draft (Grayson?! Marshall?!), the Bolden recruiting thing, the Giles knee vigil, 9F, 2017 recruiting, Duke WBB, and Duke football.

My sense is that folks on the board saw this coming, feel good about Sweet Sixteen after a Natty year, and have a lot to busy their minds between now and mid-October, which is about 6 months away. Lots of good stuff to talk about.

Although losing sucks, it happens in the end to all but one team. We were that team last year. We're set up to go again. No seething.

Maybe I'm just projecting, but that's my sense.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 09:41 AM
Essentially, got outplayed and lost. No shame in it; it is what it is. I thought the turning point in the game was Marshall's second foul, a scant minute or two into the game.

When games are over I sometimes play the "what if" game in my mind. For this one, my "what ifs" were these: 1) What if Luke's first long 3 had gone in? and 2) What if Marshall hadn't picked up that first foul on the screen? Anybody ever read the book "Chaos" or study chaos theory? A lot of what it's about is a concept called "sensitive dependence on initial conditions." I kinda think that if Luke's 3 had swished and Marshall hadn't picked up that foul, the tenor of the entire game might have been completely different, and maybe (just maybe) we'd have come out of the game with a win.

But, what happened, happened. I'm not particularly surprised, nor am I particularly disappointed. Brandon was awesome. Good luck to him at the next level. I think he'll be really good.


Thanks to the team for a very interesting and enjoyable season.

That first foul on Marshall was Matt's fault. He never waited for MP3 to get set before he took off.

The 2nd foul on Marshall was a questionable offensive foul on a flop.

Duke still had a number of chances to make a game of it or even win after those. They just never found any rhythm.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 09:43 AM
Great season guys. It was at times maddening but always a pleasure to watch this team grow and mature. MPIII what a great senior campaign you put together. Gosh I wish Brandon would stick around for another season. He is so fun to watch. Hopefully we get another year of Grayson. He was a beast most of the year. I am excited for year 2 of Luke, Derryck and Chase. Each of them made nice strides as the year progressed. Get healthy Matt and Amile. You two have a loaded team to help shepherd next season.

As for the game, it stings a bit because that was a team we could definitely beat. While they played well, I felt many of our issues were self-inflicted. We had a good team this year, but not a great one so our margin for error was pretty slim.

With respect to the shot, for some reason it didn't bother me. I thought he just threw it up there as the shot clock was expiring and it went in. Does anyone have a spare Tardis lying around so we can jump to November.

I think they may have had more of an issue with the showboating/over celebrating after the shot rather than the shot itself.

Brooks was doing that sort of stuff all game long, a la Zach Auguste.

But, I'm in the camp of "if you don't like it, stop them."

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 09:55 AM
Mtn.Devil, you're one of my favorite posters. But I think you're wrong about this. I think folks 'round here are going to get excited about the draft (Grayson?! Marshall?!), the Bolden recruiting thing, the Giles knee vigil, 9F, 2017 recruiting, Duke WBB, and Duke football.

My sense is that folks on the board saw this coming, feel good about Sweet Sixteen after a Natty year, and have a lot to busy their minds between now and mid-October, which is less than 6 months away. Lots of good stuff to talk about.

Although losing sucks, it happens in the end to all but one team. We were that team last year. We're set up to go again. No seething.

Maybe I'm just projecting, but that's my sense.

Firstly, thanks for the compliment - warm fuzzies go a long way for me.

Secondly, I think I didn't articulate myself as I intended. I also think that most reasonable Duke fans will see this season as a success in the grand scheme of things - especially given the multiple speed bumps the team faced. I also am excited for the various topics peripheral to Duke basketball that will be discussed for the next few months.

The gnashing of teeth and seething I was referring to specifically was in regards to the angst towards the media. The amount of attention this board has given ESPN and the various commentators this season really felt like it took attention away from a wildly entertaining season on the court. I can't recall any other year when so much emotion was exerted towards an issue that has nothing to do with the play of our fellas on the court. I've come to realize that I'm in the minority - I don't give a single whit about what the media wants to say about our players or our coaches or UNC's academics as long as we are performing in a prideful manner - but it greatly detracts from my own personal enjoyment of this site.

Again, everyone's more than welcome to their own use of time, energy, and emotion. I just find it to take attention away from things like MP3's electrifying development, Ingram's very enjoyable but short career at Duke, Jeter's glimmers of promise late in the season, or even 'what's up with Obi's knees.' All things I find much more interesting and relevant to our team's production on the court.

I will look forward to the prognostications about Grayson "will he/won't he," MP3's quest for a professional basketball career, Ingram v. Simmons for top pick, following our Duke alums in the NBA playoffs, any late recruiting news through the summer, our more-exciting-than-ever football season, and then the early pre-season basketball chatter instead.

Thanks for a fun season! This board is still my favorite thing on the internet - and there's a lot of things on the internet!

Duke76
03-25-2016, 09:59 AM
Are you talking about the screen shot where he is defending Mason and feet tangle? Watch the entire clip because it is in the flow of the game and not tripping.

no it wasn't the first one they showed right after the Yale game it was one i saw they used last night, where he was on the wing and I guy goes by and it was so obvious when he swung his leg out...just can't believe that is not photoshopped somehow as it was too obvious...

anyway hope he comes back still,,,surely he won't bring that back

oldnavy
03-25-2016, 10:12 AM
I think they may have had more of an issue with the showboating/over celebrating after the shot rather than the shot itself.

Brooks was doing that sort of stuff all game long, a la Zach Auguste.

But, I'm in the camp of "if you don't like it, stop them."

Me too. I don't blame the kids for having fun and let's face it, Duke is at a level where it REALLY means something to beat us. I mean like tell your grandkid's worthy.... so they are excited and they should be.

As for the Grayson "blow off"... what the Oregon kid did looked very awkward me. His teammate looked like he raised his hand in anticipation of a high five or something, but Brooks just went toward Grayson and weirdly attempted to hug him... now, I don't know if Allen and this kid are friends or not, but it isn't that common for opponent's to "hug it out" especially if they aren't close.... it was just weird. My first thought was "just leave him alone for heaven's sake" what is the point???

My cynical side says the kid was being a jerk and trying to show Grayson up..... but I don't know that. He could have been very sincere and wanted to comfort or congratulate Grayson (although Grayson didn't appear to be receptive of his gesture), so.... who knows?

Either way I am not going to spend any more time worrying or even thinking about it.

As with everything "Allen" this year, I believe it is a lot to do over nothing".

Overall, I'm very happy with how the year turned out, especially after Amile went down for the year. It could have been a LOT worse if not for the grit and hard work of the kids and coaching staff.

Wishing the guys that leave all the best and thanks for keeping the great tradition of Duke basketball moving forward!

I am already looking forward to next year!!

Happy Easter everyone!

Reddevil
03-25-2016, 10:16 AM
The cooling off period is not needed for most, but I have seen a few hints in here that probably make it a good policy idea. Putting down some of the freshman - really?!! Recall Iverson's unfortunate press conference and insert the word freshman for practice. We're talkin' 'bout freshman! They all did what freshman do and then some. They were all called upon to do more than usual because of the loss of a Sr. captain, AND they will all be better off for it in the future. One of them really should be a senior in high school and he is being criticized? He has a VERY bright future and he is extremely talented. Now he has some seasoning. Look out! Some people need to remember what being at the beginning of a learning curve feels like. Sure he deferred to others, and at times others took charge. That happens when we are learning. Over time you become a go-to person. These frosh will be just fine - like all the others. They will help ease the transition of the incoming class. Such is the way of things. Emotions are raw after a season ending loss, but the future sure is bright, and this season was special too. Remember, K has been coaching for 41 years and he ONLY has 5 national championships, so the other 36 years were failures right? Come on man! Those roses smell great too. Being a fan of this program is a gift that keeps on giving. There is enough Duke hate out there. Don't add to it. Embrace it. Relish it. The kids are alright! :D

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 10:22 AM
The cooling off period is not needed for most, but I have seen a few hints in here that probably make it a good policy idea.

To be fair, it was one of the shortest "cooling" periods I can recall. I salute the mods for their reading of the situation. I've seen very little bad behavior in the forums in the last 24 hours. As mentioned by numerous other posters, this outcome wasn't unexpected. We performed to seed.

In previous seasons, after a season-ending loss, there's been some, erm, "venting" that is non-productive. But, to be fair, it's been about two years since our last season-ending loss. :)

moonpie23
03-25-2016, 10:25 AM
kind of a harsh end to the season with the K and Grayson flap. :( it's gonna take a few days to get over...

let's go hoosiers!!!!

BluePanda
03-25-2016, 10:27 AM
I'll add my thoughts here since this thread was closed when I went to bed:

* Congrats to the team: S16 for this team at the beginning of this year may have been a reasonable expectation, but as the year went on and looking back now, it has surpassed expectations. For losing as much as the team did year to year, I'm very happy with the overall result and only slightly disappointed in losing to a better team last night. I'm not going to comment on any extra-curricular stuff - it honestly doesn't seem like a big deal either way and is likely the media trying to make up for a night where it was all chalk.

* Marshall Plumlee (and all the Plumlees): Thank you and your family for 8 great years of great basketball, hard work, development and sometimes funny bloopers. Hope Marshall has a great career serving our country or whatever he chooses to do (but hopefully not opening a pastry shop).

* Grayson Allen: If he gets good feedback from the NBA, he should go. It's not worth it to try to come back and prove the haters wrong. They'll hate him anyway, and he might as well make $1M playing.

* Brandon Ingram: Star in the NBA in 2 years max.

* Matt Jones: Honestly not sure how he can start for the team next year (Grayson or not), but I do think he'll provide leadership off the bench. Hopefully we'll have enough playmakers next year so that Jones can do what he does best (spot up 3s) and not something he's not suited for (driving the basketball)

* Luke Kennard: Showed great promise and should be good next year and beyond. Hopefully will get his deadly shot back - 32% from 3 is unbelievable long term for someone with his history and stroke.

* Thornton and Jeter: Weren't quite ready to contribute fully this year, but can be a big part of the team next year. Thornton should realize this isn't highschool where you can fancily dribble around the court and be careless with the ball, and Jeter should work on his handling and confidence.

Looking forward to the team next year, and they should be one of the favorites.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 10:31 AM
Me too. I don't blame the kids for having fun and let's face it, Duke is at a level where it REALLY means something to beat us. I mean like tell your grandkid's worthy... so they are excited and they should be.

As for the Grayson "blow off"... what the Oregon kid did looked very awkward me. His teammate looked like he raised his hand in anticipation of a high five or something, but Brooks just went toward Grayson and weirdly attempted to hug him... now, I don't know if Allen and this kid are friends or not, but it isn't that common for opponent's to "hug it out" especially if they aren't close... it was just weird. My first thought was "just leave him alone for heaven's sake" what is the point???

My cynical side says the kid was being a jerk and trying to show Grayson up.... but I don't know that. He could have been very sincere and wanted to comfort or congratulate Grayson (although Grayson didn't appear to be receptive of his gesture), so... who knows?

Either way I am not going to spend any more time worrying or even thinking about it.

As with everything "Allen" this year, I believe it is a lot to do over nothing".

Overall, I'm very happy with how the year turned out, especially after Amile went down for the year. It could have been a LOT worse if not for the grit and hard work of the kids and coaching staff.

Wishing the guys that leave all the best and thanks for keeping the great tradition of Duke basketball moving forward!

I am already looking forward to next year!!

Happy Easter everyone!

The hug was weird, for sure. You don't see that, especially after a guy's been woofing all game.

That said, I think Brooks was just super excited and genuinely happy. I think maybe he felt a little bad about all the woofing and wanted to "hug it out" like they were cool the whole time. Problem is, GA wasn't likely expecting it and likely not in the mood for it. It's a non-issue, IMO. Bigger issue was if K was telling Brooks to tone it down. I love K, but it's not his place to coach another coach's kids.

JNort
03-25-2016, 10:33 AM
Maybe it is just me but you can tell that the rest of the team doesn't have much respect for Derrick's game. He is the PG and it seems to me that Grayson, Luke and Brandon all basically refuse to give him the ball to bring up the court after missed shots, etc. He calls for the ball in the backcourt and they rarely give it up to him. I've noticed this much of the season but it happened nearly every occurrence last night.

I honestly don't see Derrick as an impact player at any point in his career but might be a 'nice to have' guy over the course of his career for every reason you mention above. I just don't think there is a ton of natural talent there and he doesn't really have physical tools to make up for it.

Hmm not how I see it. DT will be one of the top 3 pgs in the acc next year. Kid was amazing this year and very heavily under utilized. With Cat gone he is now the fastest, quickest and best dribbling guard in the conference. All he needs is to improve his 3 pointment shot and decision making and all those usually come with time anyway.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 10:36 AM
Maybe it is just me but you can tell that the rest of the team doesn't have much respect for Derrick's game. He is the PG and it seems to me that Grayson, Luke and Brandon all basically refuse to give him the ball to bring up the court after missed shots, etc. He calls for the ball in the backcourt and they rarely give it up to him. I've noticed this much of the season but it happened nearly every occurrence last night.

I honestly don't see Derrick as an impact player at any point in his career but might be a 'nice to have' guy over the course of his career for every reason you mention above. I just don't think there is a ton of natural talent there and he doesn't really have physical tools to make up for it.

Pretty sure it's just you.

Saratoga2
03-25-2016, 11:05 AM
This season has come to a close and most fans are happy with the overall performance of the team and wish all the players the best going forward. In my view, there will be a lot to talk about even if we just confine it to next seasons basketball team. Off hand I can think of many subjects as listed below:

1. Will Grayson return (know if after the draft or if he hires an agent, before)?
2. Will any scholarship players from this year leave for greener pastures (Vrank, Sean). Or does this matter?
3. Will Amile get his red shirt exemption and will he actually return? Will his foot heal properly and fully without surgery?
4. Will Bolden come to Duke and what are the ramifications of that if he does?
5. With a loaded roster, who are the likely starters? (Harry, Jayson, Grayson, Luke, Matt, Derryck, Amile)? Lots of other combinations possible.
6. Will coach K play a deeper rotation and how far will he go? (8,9,10)?
7. Who will be the PG going forward?(Derryck, Frank, Grayson, other)?
8. What role will Javian and Jack White compete for?
9. Will coach K go back to MTM and only use zone rarely?
10. Will we tend to press our opponents?
11. How well will this team handle an injury bug?
12. Will this team be typified as young because several starters may be freshmen or sophomores?
13. Where will the primary scoring come from? (Jayson, Harry, Grayson, Luke, other)?
14. Will fan expectations be too high for this team and will there be disappointment with less than a final 4?

I sure I have just scratched the surface but I can see a lot of interesting discussions covering these subjects and others that will be dredged up out of all of the web site fans.

luburch
03-25-2016, 11:15 AM
If you're interested I would check out Laura Keeley's twitter page. She's giving her thoughts on the team and they're great. Really appreciate the job Laura does!

Bluegrassdevil1
03-25-2016, 11:16 AM
I find myself profoundly confused by the board's concerns/perspectives on Duke "hate" and ESPN "culture".

Duke has been "hated" as a program for decades (the team's mascot is a literal devil), so how or why anyone would permit their blood pressure to rise over the continued perception of the program seems wasteful to me.

People hate Duke. Most of those people will never like Duke, respect Duke, or embrace Duke, no matter the situation or circumstance. If anyone is looking for the moment where Duke is not a lighting rod for controversy, then you had better hope that reincarnation is real, because it is not happening in this lifetime.

ESPN is tabloid journalism, and has been for a very long time. The culture of Bristol will never change, and because of this, every fanbase in America believes that the network hates their team.

The Patriots.
The Lakers.
The Spurs.
The Wildcats.
The Bulls.
The Cavs.
The Yankees.
The Red Sox.
The Red Wings.
The Cardinals.
The Tar Heels.
And on into infinity.

From success comes dislike, apathy, and hatred; nothing will ever change that.

If Grayson Allen played for someone else, I would detest him.
If Laettner wore a different shade of blue, I would find him repulsive.
Coach K would be as distasteful to me as Williams and Calipari currently are.

But...

One of those guys is the leader of Duke, the other two are a part of a MASSIVE fraternity of hatable "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ies", and because of that, and many other things, I accept who they are, because they are part of "my team", and everyone backs their team, no matter what.

But...

"My team" has done a great many good things for the world, sport and non-sport related, so if everyone else in the world hates "my team", hates "my players", hates "the real life devil", then...

All I can say in reply is, "hail Satan."

dyedwab
03-25-2016, 11:56 AM
I find myself profoundly confused by the board's concerns/perspectives on Duke "hate" and ESPN "culture".

This is a conversation for another thread, later on during the off season. but...

While I appreciate your perspective, I disagree with it.

That said, the big issue with last night was that we played as young and inexperienced as we were. We seemed flummoxed not by Oregon as much as by the spotlight.

Brandon was fantastic - good luck to him in the NBA. Thanks for a great career, Marshall Plumlee and (I think) Grayson Allen.

Can't wait till next year.

oldnavy
03-25-2016, 12:11 PM
If you're interested I would check out Laura Keeley's twitter page. She's giving her thoughts on the team and they're great. Really appreciate the job Laura does!

She is pretty good. I don't get the sense that she is a "true homer", meaning that she will tell it like it is (i.e., not a Duke PR mouth piece), but she seems really objective and non-biased.

killerleft
03-25-2016, 12:11 PM
Maybe it is just me but you can tell that the rest of the team doesn't have much respect for Derrick's game. He is the PG and it seems to me that Grayson, Luke and Brandon all basically refuse to give him the ball to bring up the court after missed shots, etc. He calls for the ball in the backcourt and they rarely give it up to him. I've noticed this much of the season but it happened nearly every occurrence last night.

I honestly don't see Derrick as an impact player at any point in his career but might be a 'nice to have' guy over the course of his career for every reason you mention above. I just don't think there is a ton of natural talent there and he doesn't really have physical tools to make up for it.

I sincerely hope somebody has beaten me to it, but damn, Screech. Nobody slighted him at all. You're seeing things. I fully expect, because he came to Duke a year early and RESCUED US FROM HAVING NO BENCH AT ALL, that Mr. Thornton will take all he's learned and become a beloved Blue Devil before he leaves us.

Derryck doesn't need and probably doesn't want for me to defend him. But he's far removed from the start of his race at Duke. I'm looking forward to seeing him play next year. I, for one, wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a star.

CDu
03-25-2016, 12:11 PM
Brooks was a douche the entire game. Trash talking to that degree is pathetic. Not having sportsmanship to get in line and shake hands afterwards is never acceptable. He lowered his head to run people over during the game. He flopped on shots where he literally wasn't touched. Time and time again you see players with class just let the clock run out - you don't keep shooting. If you ask me, the reason his story and Coach K's story don't match up is because Brooks knows he was being a classless jerk and took Coach K's compliment and melded it into what he knew about himself and his behavior already.

And give it up about the tripping. Grayson isn't going to roll into the fetal position and wait til everyone leaves the building just so know one runs into him when he gets knocked onto the floor. He got tripped tonight more harshly than any of the trips he was so well known for giving this season. It's basketball and it's contact. And it's Duke haters.

I don't agree with much in this post. I think it is just as unfair to assassinate Brooks' character as it is to assassinate Allen's character. One shouldn't complain about the mistreatment of Allen if one is going to do the same to Brooks.

As for the tripping, Allen has at least twice committed intentional trips. Neither trip hurt anyone, but they were intentional. Last night Allen got tripped unintentionally a couple of times and fell hard. But to suggest those trips were worse than anything Allen has dobe is just being a homer.

I totally agree that the media has gone too far in villifying Allen. But that doesn't excuse what Allen did. What he did was very wrong and he did deserve some backlash. It went too far, but at least some of it was deserved.

I hope he is back next year, and I hope he learns from this season how to channel his emotion for good.

Doria
03-25-2016, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I didn't have much problem with Brooks. He was kind of a jerk in the game, but he backed it up and wasn't overtly dirty (that I saw). Annoying? For sure, but not really unusual. I did think his 3 was unnecessary and pretty classless, but if his coach said to shoot, it's not his fault; it wasn't like he dunked or anything. That was a long shot, and it may have just been an accidental make.

The thing with Grayson was awkward, but I initially thought he was actually trying to be a good sport. He could've been a little more sensitive that maybe the other player just wanted to go through the line and get off the court, but come on... Coming off the biggest win of his college career, is he really supposed to show super mature analytical skills. I really didn't think anything untoward was meant by either him or by Grayson not wanting to get into it with him at that point.

Just overblown, through no fault of the kids.

As for Derryck, I get that he hasn't looked as ready as I might've hoped, but as a small guard, who isn't particularly strong yet, he couldn't really use his quickness and speed to full advantage because once he got into the lane, if he didn't have an open seam to the basket, he didn't have the size and strength to finish reliably at the rim. Couple that with big men who often couldn't handle passes inside, and that's not a great situation, if everyone's well covered on the perimeter. I fully expect we'll see some good progress from him. Remember, Cat Barber lost his starting job his freshman year, and I don't think it's at all a bad comparison.

Regardless, Derryck moved up his personal plans to come early when we asked him to because we needed the manpower, and I'm just gonna be grateful to him. Certainly, I wouldn't have wanted to see the season without him.

Anyway, if Oregon doesn't play better tomorrow, they're going to run into a meat grinder. I find myself in the weird position of cheering on Indiana and Oklahoma on consecutive nights. Strange days. But at least Maryland lost.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 12:32 PM
This is a conversation for another thread, later on during the off season. but...

It's coming, I'm certain. I hope we can have a waiting period to give props to our team first.

jv001
03-25-2016, 01:15 PM
We have a great group of freshmen coming to the best College Basketball Program in the country. Then we have returning the following:
Luke Kennard who has the potential to be a star. He needs to be more consistent in his three point shooting and get better in man2man D. But this young man can really be good. Matt Jones who is one of our best on the ball defenders when he's healthy. That's the encouraging thing, he wasn't healthy but he played anyway. Tough guy. Amile Jefferson who is one of the best defenders in the ACC. A captain that brings valuable experience which we will need badly next season with the new players coming in. Derryck Thornton who was I believe our best on the ball defender. He just needs to slow down. A review of the old Bobby Hurley tapes might help him play more under control. He also needs work on his 3 point shot. Chase Jeter showed vast improvement toward the end of the season. I hope he puts in the work this summer to make the next step in his career. Grayson Allen what a player, what heart and determination. I hope he comes back but I can't blame him if he goes to the NBA. He was the most talked about(negatively) player in the country this season. Most he brought on himself. But hey, how much bad press did the Cheats get this season? Looking forward to seeing just how good the freshmen are and how good the team is. GoDuke!

Steven43
03-25-2016, 01:33 PM
The cooling off period is not needed for most, but I have seen a few hints in here that probably make it a good policy idea. Putting down some of the freshman - really?!! Recall Iverson's unfortunate press conference and insert the word freshman for practice. We're talkin' 'bout freshman! They all did what freshman do and then some. They were all called upon to do more than usual because of the loss of a Sr. captain, AND they will all be better off for it in the future. One of them really should be a senior in high school and he is being criticized? He has a VERY bright future and he is extremely talented. Now he has some seasoning. Look out! Some people need to remember what being at the beginning of a learning curve feels like. Sure he deferred to others, and at times others took charge. That happens when we are learning. Over time you become a go-to person. These frosh will be just fine - like all the others. They will help ease the transition of the incoming class. Such is the way of things. Emotions are raw after a season ending loss, but the future sure is bright, and this season was special too. Remember, K has been coaching for 41 years and he ONLY has 5 national championships, so the other 36 years were failures right? Come on man! Those roses smell great too. Being a fan of this program is a gift that keeps on giving. There is enough Duke hate out there. Don't add to it. Embrace it. Relish it. The kids are alright! :D
Hey, I get what you're saying and it makes some sense. Yes, Derryck is a freshman and he could have been a senior in high school instead of a freshman in college. No one is saying the burden put on his shoulders was an easy burden to bear.

But the fact is he was a top-20ish national recruit and most fans expect a lot from highly-touted players, particularly in this era of One-And-Done. Big-time recruits are generally expected to produce at a fairly-high level by the end of their freshman season. Not necessarily be world-beaters, but at least be solid, productive, above-average players by the time the NCAA tournament begins. Kind of like Luke was.

But I was also pointing out that it appears Derryck's talent level is not as high as was touted or as I had thought it to be. Very similar to the realization I came to about Matt after his freshman season when he too had been a top 25-ish national recruit. It simply does not appear to my admittedly less than professional eye that either of those two players has the natural talent or skill level you expect to see with top 25-level national recruits.

I am not blaming them for that at all. I'm just saying that the rankings of Matt and Derryck were likely overly-inflated. That is not their fault. But it does show the imperfect nature of rankings. What I'm also saying is i think Duke needs to still be going hard after a point guard right now for next season and the two seasons after that.

We should be OK at shooting guard, although I would like to see Matt play much less next season if he does not improve his game, particularly the reliability of his outside shot. If he doesn't even have a fairly consistent three-point shot to offer, I don't think he should be anything other than a backup.

Look, don't take this so seriously. This is just fan talk about our favorite college basketball team. I'm just trying to provide some food for thought, mainly to see what others have to say. Maybe I'm way way off on all of this. I don't know. But I would like to hear the opinion of Duke fans and I don't think there is anything wrong with giving an assessment of the on-court performance of the players. And I did leave open the possibility for offseason improvement, especially for Derryck.

wavedukefan70s
03-25-2016, 01:51 PM
I love them all.kids learn at different paces .when it clicks you can see it.that is a amazing thing.
As long as they gave 100 pct of what they had to offer that day.(some 100pct days are better than others)i have no gripe.they played hard, learned and got a lot better.
Absolutely awesome job. they went farther than a lot believed they would.all i can say is thank you to them .i would rather root for a beat up thin young duke team than any other team in the world my kids are not playing on.
We should be very good again next year.

ScreechTDX1847
03-25-2016, 02:10 PM
Pretty sure it's just you.

What do you think Derrick's potential is and what were your main takeaways from his play this year both positive and negative? I believe the original poster questioned his decision making, ball handling, passing and shooting. I'd agree they were all average to below average so there is a lot of room to grow and improve. He rarely seems to make the simple play or the right decision - especially on consecutive possessions.

I did think that he had a couple of games where his M2M defense were pretty good but I'd say his Freshman campaign was overall pretty rough for him. I don't mean to be totally down on the kid but I didn't see a lot there this year. Here is to hoping he works on his game a lot this off season and increase his confidence.

CDu
03-25-2016, 02:14 PM
The hug was weird, for sure. You don't see that, especially after a guy's been woofing all game.

That said, I think Brooks was just super excited and genuinely happy. I think maybe he felt a little bad about all the woofing and wanted to "hug it out" like they were cool the whole time. Problem is, GA wasn't likely expecting it and likely not in the mood for it. It's a non-issue, IMO. Bigger issue was if K was telling Brooks to tone it down. I love K, but it's not his place to coach another coach's kids.

I totally agree on this.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 02:23 PM
What do you think Derrick's potential is and what were your main takeaways from his play this year both positive and negative? I believe the original poster questioned his decision making, ball handling, passing and shooting. I'd agree they were all average to below average so there is a lot of room to grow and improve. He rarely seems to make the simple play or the right decision - especially on consecutive possessions.

I did think that he had a couple of games where his M2M defense were pretty good but I'd say his Freshman campaign was overall pretty rough for him. I don't mean to be totally down on the kid but I didn't see a lot there this year. Here is to hoping he works on his game a lot this off season and increase his confidence.

I think DT has great potential. He has really good handles (other than last night... he seemed shaky) and exceptional speed. His vision is pretty good, too, but his teammates don't always expect the passes.

His shooting is fine. His decision making needs work. His defense is pretty outstanding already.

Once he puts on some more weight and muscle, he'll be better.

But in no way do I think his teammates intentionally freeze him out. I think the guys you listed - Luke, Grayson, Ingram - are scorers and like to go iso.

ScreechTDX1847
03-25-2016, 02:27 PM
I think DT has great potential. He has really good handles (other than last night... he seemed shaky) and exceptional speed. His vision is pretty good, too, but his teammates don't always expect the passes.

His shooting is fine. His decision making needs work. His defense is pretty outstanding already.

Once he puts on some more weight and muscle, he'll be better.

But in no way do I think his teammates intentionally freeze him out. I think the guys you listed - Luke, Grayson, Ingram - are scorers and like to go iso.

I will say I do think we needed him to handle the press all year. He was without a doubt the best person on the team to break it. I think when he went out in the Louisville game we stopped handling that well which led to a lot of turnovers.

jgehtland
03-25-2016, 02:32 PM
There are three pieces of evidence about what happened in the handshake line.

1. Dillon Brooks says K told him he was too good a player to showboat.
2. Coach K says he didn't say that, that he just told him he was a terrific player, but "to just run with whatever story you want".
3. A video of the exchange in which K has a smile on his face and says "you're a terrific player" to him twice, and nothing else.

Scenarios:

1. Coach K is lying about what he said on camera. He's a monstrously egotistical man, and shamefully scolded an opponent after a loss.
2. Dillon Brooks is lying. He's a trash-talking teenager trying to take K down a peg.
3. Dillon was surprised and a little tiny bit ashamed that he hit a 30-foot three with 5 seconds to play. When K approaches him in line and says "you're a terrific player" twice, Dillon conflates it with what was going on in his own head. He internalizes it to mean "too good to do that", but that's not what was said.


Which of those scenarios seems the most likely? Now why is it that everyone, sportswriters AND people on this board, settle on #1 as the answer? And why do none of the articles/vlogs/etc. mention that Coach K specifically and emphatically denied have said that?

Doria
03-25-2016, 02:44 PM
I also think--and I haven't seen the press conference yet (couldn't bring myself to watch it last night)--that there might have been some variation on the conversation that's a bit more in the middle; maybe Brooks remembered it as more definitive than it was, and maybe Coach K just didn't want to answer some random question about a non-issue in the final team press conference of the season. He also may have not wanted to seem to be bashing a player, who'd clearly impressed him, by spending time recounting and breaking down a "private" (not really, given the nature of the cameras) conversation.

I do not think Brooks is lying. Everything he said post-game was classy and gave credit to Duke and Coach K, while admitting he may have gotten a little carried away at times in the game. I respect the guy for that.

I also do not think Coach K is flat-out lying, either. Because... why? I mean, honestly, why would he bother lying about something like that?

This is just so much a non-issue on all fronts. By all accounts Duke had no complaints with Oregon after the game, and the Oregon players interviewed were complimentary of Duke and Coach K.

So where's the big deal in all of this? Aren't there some actual tournament games going on that someone could report on?! I mean, I'm sure Carolina players waiting for their game don't really want to have to hear about Duke all day, though it's hilarious to think about that!

flyingdutchdevil
03-25-2016, 02:54 PM
I also think--and I haven't seen the press conference yet (couldn't bring myself to watch it last night)--that there might have been some variation on the conversation that's a bit more in the middle; maybe Brooks remembered it as more definitive than it was, and maybe Coach K just didn't want to answer some random question about a non-issue in the final team press conference of the season. He also may have not wanted to seem to be bashing a player, who'd clearly impressed him, by spending time recounting and breaking down a "private" (not really, given the nature of the cameras) conversation.

I do not think Brooks is lying. Everything he said post-game was classy and gave credit to Duke and Coach K, while admitting he may have gotten a little carried away at times in the game. I respect the guy for that.

I also do not think Coach K is flat-out lying, either. Because... why? I mean, honestly, why would he bother lying about something like that?

This is just so much a non-issue on all fronts. By all accounts Duke had no complaints with Oregon after the game, and the Oregon players interviewed were complimentary of Duke and Coach K.

So where's the big deal in all of this? Aren't there some actual tournament games going on that someone could report on?! I mean, I'm sure Carolina players waiting for their game don't really want to have to hear about Duke all day, though it's hilarious to think about that!

I understand why Brooks wouldn't lie. He seems like a solid guy and, like you said, gave K and Duke a lot of respect.

I'm not saying Coach K lied, but the incentive to lie is there. 1) you don't wanna be seen coaching another team's players, especially over something that trivial. 2) it comes across as sour grapes if Coach K said that.

NashvilleDevil
03-25-2016, 03:00 PM
The good news--at least I think it's good--is we have Derryck Thornton for three more years! Seriously, there is no way I see Thornton getting anywhere near the NBA draft until his senior year.

His 3-point shot is average to below average. His passing can be good at times, but usually not. His decision-making is below average. And most surprising of all considering how he showed promise early on, his handle is poor. His defense is good at times, but needs a lot of work.

All that being said, I like Thornton and I hope he becomes a very good college player. I just think he was perhaps oversold by a lot of people. Who knows, maybe he will improve in all of these areas over the next six months before next season gets going. But I hoped the same thing for Matt Jones after his first two seasons and, well, I don't want to go there.

All that being said, I really like these guys as people and as Duke students, as least from what I know. They appear to represent the University well. I guess I just selfishly wish they would play better on the court.

I know that's kind of lame, as they don't owe me anything, but that showing last night was just sad. And it's the fourth very poor game Duke has had in the last six NCAA tournaments.

This one-and-done era is tough on the elite recruiting schools: no continuity, constant state of flux, starting over from scratch every year. It's truly a double-edged sword. Still, I'm hopeful for next season. If Matt and Derryck can improve their game, this team is going to be great. Now let's go Indiana!!

I do not like this post one bit. Derryck is going to be fine, he reclassed and missed the summer sessions when the team develops that bond. And your comment about poor performances in the tournament is ridiculous considering they won it last year and in 2010. If not for a freakish injury to Kevin Ware, Duke makes the Final Four in 2013. Just enjoy the seasons and what these young men do for the university and their basketball fans.

Devilwin
03-25-2016, 03:04 PM
My grade for the team this season, player by player..

Brandon Ingram. As good as advertised, wish we had him for another year. Grade-A
Grayson Allen. Most improved player from one season to the next ever! Needs to tweak his attitude a bit, but a great player. Grade-A
Marshall Plumlee. Hard worker, super human being! Will miss his leadership. Grade B+
Matt Jones. Great defensive player, streaky spot up shooter. Game diminished after ankle injury.Needs to finish at the rim. Grade-C+
Luke Kennard. Streaky shooter from three, but shows determination, does need to work on the outside shot, which was supposed to be his forte' coming in. Grade C+
Derek Thornton. Has talent, can handle the ball well, but is turnover prone. Needs to improve that, and his outside shot. Like him going forward. Grade C-
Chase Jeter. Needs to get hold of his game. Seems nervous and timid with the ball. Lots of room to improve here, and I am pulling for him. Grade-D

Not gonna cry about the loss last night. Sweet 16 is good for this young, thin bunch.
With what we've got coming in, plus the talent returning, we are gonna be a beast next season!
Thanks guys for a good year, and thanks for your guts and grittiness! Admirable qualities!
ps
Sad, no Plumlee next year. Best of luck, Marshall, in your military career!

ChillinDuke
03-25-2016, 03:08 PM
I think DT has great potential. He has really good handles (other than last night... he seemed shaky) and exceptional speed. His vision is pretty good, too, but his teammates don't always expect the passes.
By sentence:
1) Absolutely Agreed.
2) Somewhat agreed, he's been shaky with the ball at other times in other games. I wouldn't say he has really good handles right now - I'd say he has the potential for a great handle but is inconsistent. He absolutely has pretty good speed.
3) Agreed.


His shooting is fine. His decision making needs work. His defense is pretty outstanding already.
4) Disagree. His shooting appears below average. Didn't check the numbers. But he absolutely missed big-time, potentially back-breaking threes at multiple points throughout the season.
5) Agree.
6) Outstanding is an overstatement. But I think he's shown clear potential to be a plus defender. And at times exhibits a knack for the ball similar to Quinn. Happened a few times last night as well. He just hasn't put it together yet.


Once he puts on some more weight and muscle, he'll be better.
7) Obviously agree.


But in no way do I think his teammates intentionally freeze him out. I think the guys you listed - Luke, Grayson, Ingram - are scorers and like to go iso.
8) Absolutely agree. And I think once he improves more it will become ever more apparent.

- Chillin

mr. synellinden
03-25-2016, 03:33 PM
My grade for the team this season, player by player..

Brandon Ingram. As good as advertised, wish we had him for another year. Grade-A
Grayson Allen. Most improved player from one season to the next ever! Needs to tweak his attitude a bit, but a great player. Grade-A
Marshall Plumlee. Hard worker, super human being! Will miss his leadership. Grade B+
Matt Jones. Great defensive player, streaky spot up shooter. Game diminished after ankle injury.Needs to finish at the rim. Grade-C+
Luke Kennard. Streaky shooter from three, but shows determination, does need to work on the outside shot, which was supposed to be his forte' coming in. Grade C+
Derek Thornton. Has talent, can handle the ball well, but is turnover prone. Needs to improve that, and his outside shot. Like him going forward. Grade C-
Chase Jeter. Needs to get hold of his game. Seems nervous and timid with the ball. Lots of room to improve here, and I am pulling for him. Grade-D

Not gonna cry about the loss last night. Sweet 16 is good for this young, thin bunch.
With what we've got coming in, plus the talent returning, we are gonna be a beast next season!
Thanks guys for a good year, and thanks for your guts and grittiness! Admirable qualities!
ps
Sad, no Plumlee next year. Best of luck, Marshall, in your military career!

Did you used to write for The Chronicle?

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 03:33 PM
By sentence:
1) Absolutely Agreed.
2) Somewhat agreed, he's been shaky with the ball at other times in other games. I wouldn't say he has really good handles right now - I'd say he has the potential for a great handle but is inconsistent. He absolutely has pretty good speed.
3) Agreed.


4) Disagree. His shooting appears below average. Didn't check the numbers. But he absolutely missed big-time, potentially back-breaking threes at multiple points throughout the season.
5) Agree.
6) Outstanding is an overstatement. But I think he's shown clear potential to be a plus defender. And at times exhibits a knack for the ball similar to Quinn. Happened a few times last night as well. He just hasn't put it together yet.


7) Obviously agree.


8) Absolutely agree. And I think once he improves more it will become ever more apparent.

- Chillin

DT shot 33% from 3, 42% from 2.

Better from 3 than Luke Kennard, but worse from 2. Way better than freshman year Matt Jones from 3. DT's biggest shooting issue is his strength at the rim, IMO. He misses a lot of layups.

But I'd say his shooting isn't any more below average than Luke Kennard, who many seem to think is a deadeye shooter.

Devilwin
03-25-2016, 03:37 PM
Did you used to write for The Chronicle?
No, but I probably could. lol

Atlanta Duke
03-25-2016, 03:40 PM
I understand why Brooks wouldn't lie. He seems like a solid guy and, like you said, gave K and Duke a lot of respect.

I'm not saying Coach K lied, but the incentive to lie is there. 1) you don't wanna be seen coaching another team's players, especially over something that trivial. 2) it comes across as sour grapes if Coach K said that.

USA Today has an online storywhere someone allegedly did lip reading of the video - apparently a slow news day. K was correct that he did not state the quote attributed to him but if true this was not a compliment

“Shooting for points and glory — that was a beautiful play,” Krzyzewski told Brooks after Oregon dispatched the Blue Devils, 82-68, in the Sweet 16, according to video analyzed by David Driscoll of Silent Eye Lip Reading Translator.

Driscoll told USA TODAY Sports that Brooks responded, “I’m sorry, coach. That was my bad."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/25/mike-krzyzewski-dillon-brooks-sportsmanship/82267052/

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-25-2016, 03:48 PM
My grade for the team this season, player by player..

Brandon Ingram. As good as advertised, wish we had him for another year. Grade-A
Grayson Allen. Most improved player from one season to the next ever! Needs to tweak his attitude a bit, but a great player. Grade-A
Marshall Plumlee. Hard worker, super human being! Will miss his leadership. Grade B+
Matt Jones. Great defensive player, streaky spot up shooter. Game diminished after ankle injury.Needs to finish at the rim. Grade-C+
Luke Kennard. Streaky shooter from three, but shows determination, does need to work on the outside shot, which was supposed to be his forte' coming in. Grade C+
Derek Thornton. Has talent, can handle the ball well, but is turnover prone. Needs to improve that, and his outside shot. Like him going forward. Grade C-
Chase Jeter. Needs to get hold of his game. Seems nervous and timid with the ball. Lots of room to improve here, and I am pulling for him. Grade-D

Not gonna cry about the loss last night. Sweet 16 is good for this young, thin bunch.
With what we've got coming in, plus the talent returning, we are gonna be a beast next season!
Thanks guys for a good year, and thanks for your guts and grittiness! Admirable qualities!
ps
Sad, no Plumlee next year. Best of luck, Marshall, in your military career!

Assessing GRADES for college students?? That wouldn't fly at some universities.

Doctor Joe
03-25-2016, 03:52 PM
What do you think Derrick's potential is and what were your main takeaways from his play this year both positive and negative? I believe the original poster questioned his decision making, ball handling, passing and shooting. I'd agree they were all average to below average so there is a lot of room to grow and improve. He rarely seems to make the simple play or the right decision - especially on consecutive possessions.

I did think that he had a couple of games where his M2M defense were pretty good but I'd say his Freshman campaign was overall pretty rough for him. I don't mean to be totally down on the kid but I didn't see a lot there this year. Here is to hoping he works on his game a lot this off season and increase his confidence.


I would tend to agree with this assessment. When looking at Duke championship teams, with the exception of 2010, they all had one thing in common: great point guards. I mean GREAT point guards. And they were great even as freshmen. Thornton seems like a nice kid and may turn into a fine player, but he does not belong in the conversation with the greats I speak of: Bobby Hurley, Jay Williams, and Tyus Jones - all of whom had it. So, if Duke does want to reach the mountaintop again soon, then I firmly believe that yes, if they can upgrade at PG, do it!

CharlestonDave
03-25-2016, 03:59 PM
I think that we did everything that was expected of us. There was a reason why Oregon was a number 1 seed and Duke a 4. They are just a better team, period.

I am not sure that had Baylor beaten Yale , we would have beaten Baylor , but that is moot now.

Next year if Allen returns we will be dynamite , assuming of course that Jefferson does not bail out .

Right now, UNC looks like the best team in the tournament and it would not surprise anyone if Roy and his team cut down the nets one week from Monday.

Kfanarmy
03-25-2016, 03:59 PM
Hmm not how I see it. DT will be one of the top 3 pgs in the acc next year. Kid was amazing this year and very heavily under utilized. With Cat gone he is now the fastest, quickest and best dribbling guard in the conference. All he needs is to improve his 3 pointment shot and decision making and all those usually come with time anyway.

I certainly hope you are correct....I'd argue that very important aspects of the PG position include effective passing shooting and however...I'm not sure speed and agility alone get you to top 3 in the ACC.

Rich
03-25-2016, 04:02 PM
I would tend to agree with this assessment. When looking at Duke championship teams, with the exception of 2010, they all had one thing in common: great point guards. I mean GREAT point guards. And they were great even as freshmen. Thornton seems like a nice kid and may turn into a fine player, but he does not belong in the conversation with the greats I speak of: Bobby Hurley, Jay Williams, and Tyus Jones - all of whom had it. So, if Duke does want to reach the mountaintop again soon, then I firmly believe that yes, if they can upgrade at PG, do it!

Give me a break. Go back and look at Bobby Hurley's stats as a freshman. Bobby Hurley wasn't the Bobby Hurley you remember when he was a freshman. I remember a kid with a ton of potential who was a whirling dervish who made a lot of unforced turnovers, but admittedly showed signs of brilliance. I wish people would give this kid some time to mature and develop. Here's another idea. Go back and look at this Board's comments when Marshall Plumlee was a first year player (as a sophomore). Same thing. He was raw, emotional, and like a little kid running around in a man's game. He was criticized for not having his brothers' skills. Now look at him this year and all the praise he's getting. Same with Quinn Cook. He was blasted on this Board over the years -- until last year when he was praised as the steady, senior leader. Thornton will get there. This Board will be singing his praise in 2-3 years, I guarantee.

Nugget
03-25-2016, 04:02 PM
DT shot 33% from 3, 42% from 2.

Better from 3 than Luke Kennard, but worse from 2. Way better than freshman year Matt Jones from 3. DT's biggest shooting issue is his strength at the rim, IMO. He misses a lot of layups.

But I'd say his shooting isn't any more below average than Luke Kennard, who many seem to think is a deadeye shooter.


I think your standard of comparison for Derryck is simply too high. He's not Kyrie as a freshman, but then (i) that's not really what was expected of him and (ii) almost no one would be.

Derryck played like a good, solid (freshman) point guard -- who has lots of room to improve, but is going to have a long, successful career at Duke. The comparison isn't exactly the same since Bobby Hurley was probably slightly more college-ready than Derryck, and he certainly was a better playmaker (almost 3x the number of assists as Derryck had, in part because he was almost exclusively the play-maker as a frosh and Derryck mostly wasn't), but even Bobby only shot 35% on 3s as a freshman (and short much worse on 2s than Derryck, at 35%). Plus, while Bobby had many more assists, he also had many more turnovers -- their A/TO ratios were both around 1.6/1.7:1.

I think Derryck has a very bright future ahead of him at Duke. And, we will all be very, very happy to have him on this team as a steady Junior and Senior.

Who is to say the trajectory of his career won't approach that of Quin Cook. I think that turned out extraordinarily well for all involved.

azzefkram
03-25-2016, 04:05 PM
DT shot 33% from 3, 42% from 2.

Better from 3 than Luke Kennard, but worse from 2. Way better than freshman year Matt Jones from 3. DT's biggest shooting issue is his strength at the rim, IMO. He misses a lot of layups.

But I'd say his shooting isn't any more below average than Luke Kennard, who many seem to think is a deadeye shooter.

DT could be stronger at the rim (52%) but I think his big issue is the mix of shots. He's almost evenly divided between rim, 2pt J and 3pt J. He's only shooting 33% from 2pt J. I was sort of surprised since he's appeared pretty successful on his pull-up J. I am pretty excited to see what all our freshman (non BI division) do next year as sophomores.

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 04:07 PM
I certainly hope you are correct...I'd argue that very important aspects of the PG position include effective passing shooting and however...I'm not sure speed and agility alone get you to top 3 in the ACC.

Cat Barber is actually a really good comp for DT I think.

Barber came in as the RSCI #24 player in 2013: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2013.html
Thornton came in as the RSCI # 13: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2015.html

Both are lightning fast and smallish.
Both are 6'2"

Cat shot even worse from 3 as a freshman than DT. Both had similar per-40 min turnovers as freshmen. Barber was a better scorer per 40. Both had identical D ratings.

Barber was slightly better overall as a freshman. But I would not be shocked to see DT follow the same career path as Barber.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/anthony-cat-barber-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/derryck-thornton-1.html

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 04:09 PM
I think your standard of comparison for Derryck is simply too high. He's not Kyrie as a freshman, but then (i) that's not really what was expected of him and (ii) almost no one would be.

Derryck played like a good, solid (freshman) point guard -- who has lots of room to improve, but is going to have a long, successful career at Duke. The comparison isn't exactly the same since Bobby Hurley was probably slightly more college-ready than Derryck, and he certainly was a better playmaker (almost 3x the number of assists as Derryck had, in part because he was almost exclusively the play-maker as a frosh and Derryck mostly wasn't), but even Bobby only shot 35% on 3s as a freshman (and short much worse on 2s than Derryck, at 35%). Plus, while Bobby had many more assists, he also had many more turnovers -- their A/TO ratios were both around 1.6/1.7:1.

I think Derryck has a very bright future ahead of him at Duke. And, we will all be very, very happy to have him on this team as a steady Junior and Senior.

Who is to say the trajectory of his career won't approach that of Quin Cook. I think that turned out extraordinarily well for all involved.

My standard of comparison isn't too high - I think DT did an excellent job as a freshman PG that didn't get a full summer of practice.

I'm defending him from other posters. :)

FerryFor50
03-25-2016, 04:11 PM
DT could be stronger at the rim (52%) but I think his big issue is the mix of shots. He's almost evenly divided between rim, 2pt J and 3pt J. He's only shooting 33% from 2pt J. I was sort of surprised since he's appeared pretty successful on his pull-up J. I am pretty excited to see what all our freshman (non BI division) do next year as sophomores.

Thanks for that. I didn't have those stats handy. But just eye test showed that he wasn't great at the 2pt jumpers. Much of that correlated directly to decision making, IMO. He took some bad pull up jumpers.

Definitely excited to see what he does next year with a full summer of practice, a year of weight training and a mental break.

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 04:11 PM
Did you used to write for The Chronicle?

I did, and we never would have printed that junk.

bjornolf
03-25-2016, 04:12 PM
Great season for the guys. I love them.

I thought the irony of the K-Brooks situation is that Brooks clearly walked on the shot. If the refs had called it correctly, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-25-2016, 04:42 PM
This season has come to a close and most fans are happy with the overall performance of the team and wish all the players the best going forward. In my view, there will be a lot to talk about even if we just confine it to next seasons basketball team. Off hand I can think of many subjects as listed below:

1. Will Grayson return (know if after the draft or if he hires an agent, before)?
2. Will any scholarship players from this year leave for greener pastures (Vrank, Sean). Or does this matter?
3. Will Amile get his red shirt exemption and will he actually return? Will his foot heal properly and fully without surgery?
4. Will Bolden come to Duke and what are the ramifications of that if he does?
5. With a loaded roster, who are the likely starters? (Harry, Jayson, Grayson, Luke, Matt, Derryck, Amile)? Lots of other combinations possible.
6. Will coach K play a deeper rotation and how far will he go? (8,9,10)?
7. Who will be the PG going forward?(Derryck, Frank, Grayson, other)?
8. What role will Javian and Jack White compete for?
9. Will coach K go back to MTM and only use zone rarely?
10. Will we tend to press our opponents?
11. How well will this team handle an injury bug?
12. Will this team be typified as young because several starters may be freshmen or sophomores?
13. Where will the primary scoring come from? (Jayson, Harry, Grayson, Luke, other)?
14. Will fan expectations be too high for this team and will there be disappointment with less than a final 4?

I sure I have just scratched the surface but I can see a lot of interesting discussions covering these subjects and others that will be dredged up out of all of the web site fans.
How could you have missed the single most important discussion that will be had... Distribution of minutes?

BD80
03-25-2016, 04:54 PM
How could you have missed the single most important discussion that will be had... Distribution of minutes?

That will be covered in threads 1-14 listed above. And in half of the off-topic threads as well.

CDu
03-25-2016, 04:59 PM
There are three pieces of evidence about what happened in the handshake line.

1. Dillon Brooks says K told him he was too good a player to showboat.
2. Coach K says he didn't say that, that he just told him he was a terrific player, but "to just run with whatever story you want".
3. A video of the exchange in which K has a smile on his face and says "you're a terrific player" to him twice, and nothing else.

Scenarios:

1. Coach K is lying about what he said on camera. He's a monstrously egotistical man, and shamefully scolded an opponent after a loss.
2. Dillon Brooks is lying. He's a trash-talking teenager trying to take K down a peg.
3. Dillon was surprised and a little tiny bit ashamed that he hit a 30-foot three with 5 seconds to play. When K approaches him in line and says "you're a terrific player" twice, Dillon conflates it with what was going on in his own head. He internalizes it to mean "too good to do that", but that's not what was said.


Which of those scenarios seems the most likely? Now why is it that everyone, sportswriters AND people on this board, settle on #1 as the answer? And why do none of the articles/vlogs/etc. mention that Coach K specifically and emphatically denied have said that?

There seem to be videos out there that suggest that more was said by Coach K than just "you're a great player," and that Brooks is seen saying "my bad, my bad." It is quite possible that the video you reference captures only the very end of their conversation, after the alleged scolding.

Papa John
03-25-2016, 05:18 PM
Bigger issue was if K was telling Brooks to tone it down. I love K, but it's not his place to coach another coach's kids.

K is in the twilight of the greatest coaching career in men's college basketball history—a career defined by class, hard work, integrity, and a desire to teach... This was a teachable moment, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a coach of K's stature to point out to a kid in this moment, "Hey—you're a great player, you don't need to act like a buffoon..."

That aside, I appreciate your defense of Thornton and totally agree with you on that subject. This is a kid who was asked to reclassify because Tyus made the unexpected [and, in retrospect, perhaps unwise] early jump to the NBA. He likely would have benefitted from not being thrown into the fire in the manner that he was, but the kid competed... He's quick, and his handle and decision-making will improve. Personally, I'm glad we have him!

Devilwin
03-25-2016, 05:49 PM
I did, and we never would have printed that junk.

Sorry my post didn't meet with your approval. Now I must go procure some sleeping meds so I won't stay up all night worrying about it...

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 06:09 PM
Sorry my post didn't meet with your approval. Now I must go procure some sleeping meds so I won't stay up all night worrying about it...

As a printed article in the Duke student newspaper, it was a hack job on several players who don't deserve it; therefore, it would not have been published in the Chron back in my day on the third floor of Flowers. As a post, it was fine -- except that this is a Duke fan site and Duke players deserve defense. So, there probably should be a rebuttal, but not from me....

Devilwin
03-25-2016, 06:47 PM
Hack job it wasn't. It was merely my opinion. And I believe no one was offended by that, if they were, it's time to grow up.

proelitedota
03-25-2016, 06:55 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/25/mike-krzyzewski-dillon-brooks-sportsmanship/82267052/

K didn't say what Brooks said.

It's a non-story.

CDu
03-25-2016, 07:24 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/25/mike-krzyzewski-dillon-brooks-sportsmanship/82267052/

K didn't say what Brooks said.

It's a non-story.

The article you linked actually says the exact opposite of what you are saying here.

JNort
03-25-2016, 07:26 PM
I certainly hope you are correct...I'd argue that very important aspects of the PG position include effective passing shooting and however...I'm not sure speed and agility alone get you to top 3 in the ACC.

I'm taking into account natural progression from freshmen to sophomore year. Honestly this year I prob would have had him top 4 or 5 based on his performance. Best pg I've watched at Duke since perhaps JWill (I didn't count Kyrie since it was 11 games)

weezie
03-25-2016, 07:27 PM
...K didn't say what Brooks said. It's a non-story.

Good enough for me. Especially since 24 hours from now we'll likely be seeing young Hield sporting a Final Four Houston t-shirt.

Had enough of the duck. With their swell, eye-searing uniforms/shoes for nearly every quarter. Phil Knight can sit upon "it".

proelitedota
03-25-2016, 07:27 PM
The article you linked actually says the exact opposite of what you are saying here.

No one cares about the article. It just sourced the lip-reader.

cspan37421
03-25-2016, 08:12 PM
I did, and we never would have printed that junk.

Maybe not in your day, but The Chronicle, infamously, once did, did they not?
And that led to another interesting story, as I recall ....

jipops
03-25-2016, 08:16 PM
There seem to be videos out there that suggest that more was said by Coach K than just "you're a great player," and that Brooks is seen saying "my bad, my bad." It is quite possible that the video you reference captures only the very end of their conversation, after the alleged scolding.

This was a tired topic when it started. But I do think the guys at PTI covered it the best. I love what they said about the whole thing. And they didn't blow it up into to something it's not.

BD80
03-25-2016, 08:17 PM
Sorry my post didn't meet with your approval. Now I must go procure some sleeping meds so I won't stay up all night worrying about it...


Hack job it wasn't. It was merely my opinion. And I believe no one was offended by that, if they were, it's time to grow up.

Wow. The off-season came up on us pretty darn fast

How is giving a player a "grade" of "D" any different than saying: "he sucked?" That just doesn't fly on this board.

dyedwab
03-25-2016, 08:18 PM
Maybe not in your day, but The Chronicle, infamously, once did, did they not?
And that led to another interesting story, as I recall ...

Yeah, IIRC, that led, IMHO, one of Coach K's worst moments as a Duke coach, in which he held a meeting and lit into the Chronicle staff for the article (probably deserved) and argued that they should be more supportive of fellow students, which the Chronicle reporters did not take as kindly to, since they were acting as journalists. Ugly scene. And why any "grade" of Duke players makes me reflexively wince.

Wahoo2000
03-25-2016, 08:37 PM
Yikes. (Just giving you guys a heads up here, and for the record, I personally don't think it's a big deal at all)

CBS just brought up the K/Brooks incident, then reshowed the video from the handshake line.... this time with clear (very) audio:
K - "You're too good of a player to do that" (and smiling, doesn't seem like he's really chastising Brooks too harshly)
Brooks - "I'm sorry, I'm sorry coach. My bad. I respect you, coach... <inaudible>"

K probably denied it at the presser because he knew it would be spun very badly. Probably should've though about the fact that the cameras catch everything. Most of the analysts downplay it, maybe a couple say that he shouldn't be coaching/teaching opponents kids, especially since Prohm told Brooks to shoot the ball (they showed that on the replay as well, Brooks looked over to Prohm as the clock ran down and then Prohm pointed up at the basket, instructing him to shoot.

This will be an annoying story for you guys for like one more day, then it'll die. Still not sure why K denied saying that though. Probably a little bit of a brainfart. Good to know even insanely successful & smart people get them just like I do!

EDIT: And I'll say for the record - If Dillon Brooks didn't take any offense to what was said, almost no one else has a right to take offense.

Duke79UNLV77
03-25-2016, 08:42 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/25/mike-krzyzewski-dillon-brooks-sportsmanship/82267052/

K didn't say what Brooks said.

It's a non-story.

That's a very weird article. Headline reads, "Lip reader agrees with Oregon player's account: Coach K lectured Dillon Brooks." Then, the actual quote from the lip-reader is nothing at all like what Brooks claims: "Shooting for points and glory -- that was a beautiful play." Nowhere close to what Brooks claimed: "You're too good of a player to be showing out at the end" Huh? I'm reminded of the lip-reading episode of "Seinfeld."

It certainly would be a non-story either way if Duke weren't involved.

CDu
03-25-2016, 08:45 PM
Yikes. (Just giving you guys a heads up here, and for the record, I personally don't think it's a big deal at all)

CBS just brought up the K/Brooks incident, then reshowed the video from the handshake line... this time with clear (very) audio:
K - "You're too good of a player to do that" (and smiling, doesn't seem like he's really chastising Brooks too harshly)
Brooks - "I'm sorry, I'm sorry coach. My bad. I respect you, coach... <inaudible>"

K probably denied it at the presser because he knew it would be spun very badly. Probably should've though about the fact that the cameras catch everything. Most of the analysts downplay it, maybe a couple say that he shouldn't be coaching/teaching opponents kids, especially since Prohm told Brooks to shoot the ball (they showed that on the replay as well, Brooks looked over to Prohm as the clock ran down and then Prohm pointed up at the basket, instructing him to shoot.

This will be an annoying story for you guys for like one more day, then it'll die. Still not sure why K denied saying that though. Probably a little bit of a brainfart. Good to know even insanely successful & smart people get them just like I do!

EDIT: And I'll say for the record - If Dillon Brooks didn't take any offense to what was said, almost no one else has a right to take offense.

That is why it was so weird that he denied it. There would obviously be tape of it. Now he looks worse for denying it.

It wouldn't have been a big deal had he just owned and not turned it on the player like he did. Brooks totally took it the right way and it woulfn't have been any sort of story. But for some reason coach denied it altogether, and even kind of aimed back at the player. It looks much worse this way.

Just not Coach K's best moment. Oh well.

KandG
03-25-2016, 09:48 PM
Thank goodness this topic is going to die soon, since just about every reasonable person thinks it's been overblown, but let me say this in defense of K.

What no one seems to be pointing out is the Duke players very visibly retreated toward the end of the shot clock, with Oregon dribbling out the ball. That's what made Brooks' shot look kind of bad, even if he was encouraged by the coach to take it (which I didn't even see the first time I watched the footage). Everyone is just sort of standing around, the Duke players are basically signaling "game over" with their body language, and then Brooks suddenly dribbles up and makes the 3 pointer with no defender near him.

Coach K denying he (gently) reprimanded Brooks in the press conference might have been him cooling off by the time he got to the podium and wanting keep the focus on the fact that he complimented Brooks profusely for his effort in helping Oregon win the game (which K did). Does it look bad? It does look odd, at least by the optics a hall of fame coach is judged by in the internet age.

But as others have said, Brooks had no issue with it, and whenever it comes to overblown internet outrage of any type, I prefer to turn the volume down and give some allowance -- even to the biggest and most infamous of public figures -- to be human. (This also applies to coaches and players on other teams, as hard as it can be in the heat of battle). I don't care what lip readers or uncovered audio has revealed: it doesn't tell me anything more about K as a coach or human that I have to worry about.

As far as Grayson Allen's walking away from Brooks, this was an even more embarrassing non-story. Sam Vecenie of CBS Sports tweeted that he was 20 feet away from the "incident", and Allen simply looked like he got caught up in an awkwardly executed bump and hug and didn't want any part of it. I personally have seen much more dramatic rejections of opposing handshakes/hugs by players (just saw one from the Celtics' Isiah Thomas a couple of weeks ago, and no one reported on it).

The only reason it even got brought up was because it was Grayson Allen that was involved. And he didn't deserve the attention in this case, period.

sagegrouse
03-25-2016, 09:58 PM
That's a very weird article. Headline reads, "Lip reader agrees with Oregon player's account: Coach K lectured Dillon Brooks." Then, the actual quote from the lip-reader is nothing at all like what Brooks claims: "Shooting for points and glory -- that was a beautiful play." Nowhere close to what Brooks claimed: "You're too good of a player to be showing out at the end" Huh? I'm reminded of the lip-reading episode of "Seinfeld."

It certainly would be a non-story either way if Duke weren't involved.
IMHO (where I beg you to return the H if it shows up in your yard), this is a story because (a) all the games last night were duds and (b) Grayson didn't trip anyone. The story will disappear with the arrival of final scores for tonight's games.

Kindly,
Sage

Wahoo2000
03-25-2016, 10:02 PM
And my last contribution to this nonsense, just in case you guys wanted to see/hear it:

http://collegespun.com/acc/duke/cbs-releases-audio-of-coach-ks-words-to-brooks-youre-too-good-of-a-player-to-showboat

On to next season, I say.

Doctor Joe
03-25-2016, 10:14 PM
Give me a break. Go back and look at Bobby Hurley's stats as a freshman. Bobby Hurley wasn't the Bobby Hurley you remember when he was a freshman. I remember a kid with a ton of potential who was a whirling dervish who made a lot of unforced turnovers, but admittedly showed signs of brilliance. I wish people would give this kid some time to mature and develop. Here's another idea. Go back and look at this Board's comments when Marshall Plumlee was a first year player (as a sophomore). Same thing. He was raw, emotional, and like a little kid running around in a man's game. He was criticized for not having his brothers' skills. Now look at him this year and all the praise he's getting. Same with Quinn Cook. He was blasted on this Board over the years -- until last year when he was praised as the steady, senior leader. Thornton will get there. This Board will be singing his praise in 2-3 years, I guarantee.

I am not saying DT will not become a serviceable point guard. Duke has had a lot of those. I was just mentioning the great ones, the ones with the vision, the court presence, the big game swagger to lead their teams to a championship.

You are watching a different game if you think DT is in the same league as Hurley, JWill, and Tyus (Kyrie, we hardly knew him, but he would have been up there, too). Hurley was freshman PG of a team that went to the finals. We did not need your stats to see that he already had "it" then and he got even better during their back-to-backs.

If DT develops into another Wojo, Paulus, Avery, Cook, etc - ok, fine. That is serviceable. Given the choice, I would prefer more - someone with the instincts and other qualities that were evident with Duke's great PGs from their first footsteps in Cameron.

chrishoke
03-25-2016, 10:17 PM
And my last contribution to this nonsense, just in case you guys wanted to see/hear it:

http://collegespun.com/acc/duke/cbs-releases-audio-of-coach-ks-words-to-brooks-youre-too-good-of-a-player-to-showboat

On to next season, I say.

As a Wahoo, you sure are enjoying this. Good luck to the hoos in the tourny. I'm pulling for ya.

HokieEngineer
03-25-2016, 10:22 PM
K was obviously keeping it between him and Brooks. It was a good teaching moment for that kid. K is just class through and through!

I know you're a Duke fan and this is a Duke board, but this is just false. Krzyzewski is clearly a great coach. However, he also has a history of doing this crap after he loses a game. (He definitely did the same to Zabian Dowdell after a Tech win in Cameron.)

He needs to focus on what he does well--coaching his own team--and keep his mouth shut when it comes to players on the other.

Rich
03-25-2016, 10:40 PM
I am not saying DT will not become a serviceable point guard. Duke has had a lot of those. I was just mentioning the great ones, the ones with the vision, the court presence, the big game swagger to lead their teams to a championship.

You are watching a different game if you think DT is in the same league as Hurley, JWill, and Tyus (Kyrie, we hardly knew him, but he would have been up there, too). Hurley was freshman PG of a team that went to the finals. We did not need your stats to see that he already had "it" then and he got even better during their back-to-backs.

If DT develops into another Wojo, Paulus, Avery, Cook, etc - ok, fine. That is serviceable. Given the choice, I would prefer more - someone with the instincts and other qualities that were evident with Duke's great PGs from their first footsteps in Cameron.

Hurley, JWill, Kyrie (perhaps without his injury) -- some of the best point guards in the history of college basketball. Hey, but since Doctor Joe considers all of the other great point guards in the history of Duke basketball to be merely "serviceable" and "would prefer more," we should give up and recruit over Thornton after his freshman year and try to find someone better. Sir, you are unbelievably spoiled. I'm really just beside myself.

JBDuke
03-25-2016, 11:07 PM
I am not saying DT will not become a serviceable point guard. Duke has had a lot of those. I was just mentioning the great ones, the ones with the vision, the court presence, the big game swagger to lead their teams to a championship.

You are watching a different game if you think DT is in the same league as Hurley, JWill, and Tyus (Kyrie, we hardly knew him, but he would have been up there, too). Hurley was freshman PG of a team that went to the finals. We did not need your stats to see that he already had "it" then and he got even better during their back-to-backs.

If DT develops into another Wojo, Paulus, Avery, Cook, etc - ok, fine. That is serviceable. Given the choice, I would prefer more - someone with the instincts and other qualities that were evident with Duke's great PGs from their first footsteps in Cameron.


Hurley, JWill, Kyrie (perhaps without his injury) -- some of the best point guards in the history of college basketball. Hey, but since Doctor Joe considers all of the other great point guards in the history of Duke basketball to be merely "serviceable" and "would prefer more," we should give up and recruit over Thornton after his freshman year and try to find someone better. Sir, you are unbelievably spoiled. I'm really just beside myself.

Totally agree with Rich here. Basically, your criteria seem to be that if a Duke PG isn't good enough to have their jersey hanging in the rafters or to leave for the NBA after one year of college ball, they are merely "serviceable". That's a ridiculous statement. According to that standard, Jim Spanarkel, Tommy Amaker, and Chris Duhon were "serviceable" point guards. Furthermore, who's to say that Derryck can't improve to take his place amongst the Duke greats? You want to want to write him off after one year.

Here's what Derryck has done so far. He was planning to have just completed his senior year of high school ball and enrolling at Duke this summer. But when Tyus had a chance to get drafted in the first round and took it, Derryck agreed to complete his HS education early and enroll at Duke this year. Last summer, instead of getting a head start on college classwork and a chance to familiarize himself with his teammates through summer pick-up games (something you'd think would be especially valuable for a primary facilitator of the offense), he was finishing up his high school course work. So, he showed up in September a little behind, and it showed in some of the early season games. But even then, you could tell he was quick, occasionally explosive. He could really pressure the ball on defense. He could drive and get to the basket - albeit sometimes too aggressively. He started the fourth game of the season against VCU and started a majority of the games for the rest of the season. No, he was not the ball wizard prodigy that Kyrie Irving was. No, he was not the preternaturally calm, cool presence of Tyus Jones. But he brought skills to this team that no one else had, and he was a valued contributor all season long. He averaged more than 25 minutes a game and had the second highest assist total on the team. I think he hit a bit of the stereotypical freshman "wall", as his productivity declined somewhat - especially his shooting accuracy - later in the season. He was inconsistent. He made some bad decisions and some foolish turnovers. HE'S A FRESHMAN! And a young one at that. But I am excited that he is at Duke, and I think he has a great future. And if anyone thinks that Frank Jackson is going to walk into Cameron and be handed the starting PG job next year, IMO, you've got another think coming, because Derryck is too good to be pushed to the bench unless Jackson is the next coming of Kyrie.

Rich is exactly correct in that the opinions expressed in your post are the reason why Duke fans have the reputation of being spoiled. Celebrate what this team has done. All of them fought like demons (or maybe Devils?) to win for Duke this year. That five game stretch in early February was spectacular. I will always remember the heart and the fight of the 2015-16 Blue Devils. And Derryck was a key part of it.

killerleft
03-25-2016, 11:20 PM
Did you used to write for The Chronicle?

Ha! I knew somebody would ask that. Coach K probably doesn't care what he writes here, anyway.

Doctor Joe
03-25-2016, 11:34 PM
Hurley, JWill, Kyrie (perhaps without his injury) -- some of the best point guards in the history of college basketball. Hey, but since Doctor Joe considers all of the other great point guards in the history of Duke basketball to be merely "serviceable" and "would prefer more," we should give up and recruit over Thornton after his freshman year and try to find someone better. Sir, you are unbelievably spoiled. I'm really just beside myself.

Great point guards are game changers. They are also like unicorns and four-leaf clovers. That will not stop me and many loyal followers of the program from always wishing and hoping for another one because in Coach's ideal system, so much is demanded of the PG on both sides of the ball. Spoiled? Well, not really. I enjoy every minute and every second of every season. Duke basketball is a joy. But I have seen a few Duke teams with championship potential come up short for lack of that one key ingredient. Hey, championships are fun. Yes there was 2010, but hard to win it all in March/April without a great PG. Don't you think? And I am just saying that I do agree with some others on here who might have some "reservations" about DT based on what we have seen to this point.
If they are cutting the nets within the next few years with DT running the show I will gladly eat crow :o)

proelitedota
03-25-2016, 11:38 PM
I know you're a Duke fan and this is a Duke board, but this is just false. Krzyzewski is clearly a great coach. However, he also has a history of doing this crap after he loses a game. (He definitely did the same to Zabian Dowdell after a Tech win in Cameron.)

He needs to focus on what he does well--coaching his own team--and keep his mouth shut when it comes to players on the other.

A few times slip up in years. Even then what he does isn't necessarily bad.

Furniture
03-25-2016, 11:59 PM
Watched the end of game press conference just now. Got to admit to getting a lump in my throat when Brandon was talking about how much he loves this team!!!
Gulp!

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 01:05 AM
DT shot 33% from 3, 42% from 2.

Better from 3 than Luke Kennard, but worse from 2. Way better than freshman year Matt Jones from 3. DT's biggest shooting issue is his strength at the rim, IMO. He misses a lot of layups.

But I'd say his shooting isn't any more below average than Luke Kennard, who many seem to think is a deadeye shooter.

Really? Do we have stats on this? I thought it was a particular strength. It seemed to me he has excellent control, spin and angle on his layups, making seemingly impossible and difficult shots with consistency. I always felt very comfortable when he drove instead of taking threes.

Am I wrong here? Any quantitative measures available?

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 01:22 AM
Maybe not in your day, but The Chronicle, infamously, once did, did they not?
And that led to another interesting story, as I recall ...

I recall something in 82 or 83 that created a (crap) storm after reporting Ks locker room language and grading the team after a 17 loss season. Are you referring to this or another time?

gep
03-26-2016, 03:27 AM
Of the many articles on the Brooks last 3 pointer... One (or more) had the Oregon coach saying that he told
Brooks to shoot because he didn't want another turnover in the box score. Really???

My opinion. The other team obviously called it a game. Take the shot clock violation. I never even thought of the box score and a turnover.

jgehtland
03-26-2016, 04:22 AM
I stand corrected.

NashvilleDevil
03-26-2016, 05:46 AM
Of the many articles on the Brooks last 3 pointer... One (or more) had the Oregon coach saying that he told
Brooks to shoot because he didn't want another turnover in the box score. Really???

My opinion. The other team obviously called it a game. Take the shot clock violation. I never even thought of the box score and a turnover.

Last year against Gonzaga, Duke took a shot clock violation in a similar situation.

jv001
03-26-2016, 06:41 AM
Really? Do we have stats on this? I thought it was a particular strength. It seemed to me he has excellent control, spin and angle on his layups, making seemingly impossible and difficult shots with consistency. I always felt very comfortable when he drove instead of taking threes.

Am I wrong here? Any quantitative measures available?

Derryck played well for a guy that was supposed to be a high school senior this year. Does he need to improve, certainly he does. He can slow down and make good decisions with the ball. Sometimes players can go too fast. That is unless you're an experienced Cat Barber. As for Derryck's shooting, he can go stronger to the basket and not lay the ball up softly and he can improve his form on his jumper. He seems to float and not have a good base. There's no way he will be a consistent 3 point shooter if he continues to do that. I look for Derryck to work hard this off season because he knows we have some terrific freshmen coming aboard. If he wants more minutes, they are there for the taking if he puts in the work. The PG position will go to Jackson, Grayson(if he stays), Kennard or Derryck. I'm hoping Mr. Thornton(not thorton) wins the job. We need his quickness guarding the opposing PG. It's going to be an interesting off season. GoDuke!

wavedukefan70s
03-26-2016, 07:56 AM
I have no doubt it will click for dt.hes a good guard now.kid is quick aswell.we have had some very exceptional freshman .he will be fine.

Emerrick
03-26-2016, 07:56 AM
This board has lost its mind. The improvement I saw from DT suggests an incredible Duke career. Clearly others will disagree, but I look forward to him being one of the most dominant guards in the NCAA - possibly as early as next year.

The K controversy is oddly ridiculous. How do we know Coach K was even referencing the shot - which at that point who cares! Brooks' antics after the shot were annoying though. I'd bet it was more about all his woofing and show boating, antics after the shot, and apparent end of game love of Grayson (which didn't quite look like a hug to me...). I doubt it was about the shot - his own coach told him to shoot it and why waste more time with a turnover.

Lastly, if he did say something, he was correct to do so. We need more people like him in this world helping youth understand what respect, integrity, and leadership means. If anyone takes offense to that, they should reevaluate their own value system, get perspective over what we are really after in this life and recognize Coach K for the great example he sets for our society, not just basketball. It's not about coaching - it's about being an adult and not tolerating immature behavior.

Saratoga2
03-26-2016, 08:07 AM
I would tend to agree with this assessment. When looking at Duke championship teams, with the exception of 2010, they all had one thing in common: great point guards. I mean GREAT point guards. And they were great even as freshmen. Thornton seems like a nice kid and may turn into a fine player, but he does not belong in the conversation with the greats I speak of: Bobby Hurley, Jay Williams, and Tyus Jones - all of whom had it. So, if Duke does want to reach the mountaintop again soon, then I firmly believe that yes, if they can upgrade at PG, do it!

I'd say it is rare to find freshmen who can be great point guards, but yes having a great PG or two on a team is needed for those who would become national champions. Give DT a break, He has a lot of the attributes of an excellent PG and will no doubt improve as his game and understanding develop. We had Tyus on the championship team but we also had Quinn Cook. It took Quinn several years to overcome injuries and develop his game but he was essential to our championship season. We have Frank coming in next year and he is not thought of as a pure PG but probably can help DT in that role.

Reilly
03-26-2016, 08:11 AM
I recall something in 82 or 83 that created a (crap) storm after reporting Ks locker room language and grading the team after a 17 loss season. Are you referring to this or another time?

I believe The Chronicle "grading" article came at the mid-point of the 1989-90 season, and K called in reporters and lectured them in front of the team (and maybe one of the reporters secretly tape recorded it?). K was being protective of his team, but was in the wrong, in my most people's eyes. Tom Brokaw noted the incident in his commencement address in 1990 (Brokaw being a fill-in for Bart Giamatti, who had been slated to speak, but who had died in 1989). Brokaw in needling K/Duke about the incident may have tied his criticisms to the First Amendment, which of course does not prohibit private actors like K from seeking to control or squelch speech.

sagegrouse
03-26-2016, 08:14 AM
This board has lost its mind. The improvement I saw from DT suggests an incredible Duke career. Clearly others will disagree, but I look forward to him being one of the most dominant guards in the NCAA - possibly as early as next year.

The K controversy is oddly ridiculous. How do we know Coach K was even referencing the shot - which at that point who cares! Brooks' antics after the shot were annoying though. I'd bet it was more about all his woofing and show boating, antics after the shot, and apparent end of game love of Grayson (which didn't quite look like a hug to me...). I doubt it was about the shot - his own coach told him to shoot it and why waste more time with a turnover.

Lastly, if he did say something, he was correct to do so. We need more people like him in this world helping youth understand what respect, integrity, and leadership means. If anyone takes offense to that, they should reevaluate their own value system, get perspective over what we are really after in this life and recognize Coach K for the great example he sets for our society, not just basketball. It's not about coaching - it's about being an adult and not tolerating immature behavior.

I agree. Yadda, yadda, yadda.... So the long-time coach of the U.S. National team, the winner of five NCAA championships, and all-time winningest college basketball coach gives some avuncular advice to the other team's star. He does it with a smile on the face and a pat on the back. Then he chooses not to hash it out in the press. How is this a controversy?

duke74
03-26-2016, 08:18 AM
The PG position will go to Jackson, Grayson(if he stays), Kennard or Derryck.

I may have missed this in other posts. Are we looking at Luke as a PG? Or just as a situational thing should we need/want him directing the flow and action? Not disparaging his handle, but seems to be a prototype 2 to me - with the ability to relieve some of the PG's pressure and assume the role as warranted.

Atlanta Duke
03-26-2016, 08:26 AM
I believe The Chronicle "grading" article came at the mid-point of the 1989-90 season, and K called in reporters and lectured them in front of the team (and maybe one of the reporters secretly tape recorded it?). K was being protective of his team, but was in the wrong, in my most people's eyes. Tom Brokaw noted the incident in his commencement address in 1990 (Brokaw being a fill-in for Bart Giamatti, who had been slated to speak, but who had died in 1989). Brokaw in needling K/Duke about the incident may have tied his criticisms to the First Amendment, which of course does not prohibit private actors like K from seeking to control or squelch speech.

Good memory - link to January 1990 article by Barry Jacobs in the New York Times on that incident

Coach K. Gives Stately Duke An Undignified Jolt

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/24/sports/coach-k-gives-stately-duke-an-undignified-jolt.html

At the time Duke was still on the rise as a basketball power but even then the head coach cursing out the student newspaper's members was a national story. I suppose today the recording of the meeting by someone on The Chronicle would be put online and CBS could play the recording on its halftime show.

weezie
03-26-2016, 08:35 AM
...Give DT a break, He has a lot of the attributes of an excellent PG and will no doubt improve as his game and understanding develop...It took Quinn several years to overcome injuries and develop his game but he was essential to our championship season...

A-to-the-men. Kids people, we're talking about kids here. All at different stages and levels of talent. I watched the T-ball video from 2014 on the goduke site and thoroughly enjoyed how these teenagers were acting silly and loving every minute. As serious as college hoops can get, it's still boys playing a game and they are subject to far more stress than we can imagine. Thank goodness they love it! We do too, but strictly from the sidelines.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 08:37 AM
Last year against Gonzaga, Duke took a shot clock violation in a similar situation.

Link?

Articles/newsreels complimenting K for showing sportsmanship?

Nah, didn't think we'd find any of those.:rolleyes:

gurufrisbee
03-26-2016, 08:42 AM
Last year against Gonzaga, Duke took a shot clock violation in a similar situation.

TONS of teams do the same thing every single game. Duke did it seven seconds later.

And that remains the biggest problem - the insane double standard Duke has to live with because of the world filled with pathetic Duke haters.

Coach K would NEVER call a kid out publicly, especially at a press conference. Yet that's exactly what the reporter is trying to get him to do there. So the focus turns into Coach K being a liar. Except that Brooks was a complete classless jerk the entire game, including that three pointer.

Grayson gets violently tripped during the Oregon game. But it happens over the course of a game and guys playing hard and bodies being in contact. No one freaks out and calls for suspensions and labels the kid from Oregon a bad kid for doing it. But Grayson is expected to curl up in the fetal position whenever he gets knocked down so that people don't run into his leg.

Iowa State lost a small time starter to injury at the beginning of the season that left them extremely short in their rotation. They went on to not come close to winning their conference or conference tournament but had a couple nice wins and got a four seed. In the tournament they beat a 13 and then a 12 and they lost pretty badly in the sweet sixteen to the 1 seed. Does this sound familiar? Only here is where it changes - they are being hailed for having a great season and a great tournament run. Duke is getting slammed in the media as being a failure.

It's a pathetic double standard promoted by pathetic media types who know that pathetic, bitter, jealous, wrong Duke haters will eat it up.

GoDucks349
03-26-2016, 08:43 AM
My thoughts on the 3 pointer by Brooks and the conversation between K and Brooks.

Brooks had three options:
1. worst: Make an offensive move to the basket and shoot. Simply classless and it didn't happen
2. Ok, but not best: basically toss up a shot to avoid the 30 second clock violation. He did this and it went in. Perhaps it wouldn't have been an issue if a different Duck had taken the shot.
3. Give the ball to the official and take the 30 second violation.

Honestly after a hard fought game, I'm not sure everyone makes the best decisions. This should be a non issue.

Conversations between players and coaches during the hand shake should be limited to complimenting the opponent on a good game.

1. If K said something negative to an opposing player, he should apologize. This doesn't have anything to do with whether the player thought the comment was ok or not, it has to do with being classy and having good sportsmanship, especially from a coach. And the apology should be between the player and the coach.
2. If his comments were classy and complimentary then great.

Again, this is a problem and sort of a "In the heat of the moment" kind of thing.

Stray Gator
03-26-2016, 08:53 AM
I know you're a Duke fan and this is a Duke board, but this is just false. Krzyzewski is clearly a great coach. However, he also has a history of doing this crap after he loses a game. (He definitely did the same to Zabian Dowdell after a Tech win in Cameron.)

He needs to focus on what he does well--coaching his own team--and keep his mouth shut when it comes to players on the other.

Thanks for setting the record straight for us about Coach K's history. I suppose the man who happens to occupy the top of the hill should be ever mindful of the fact that everyone else can see when he is "doing . . . crap." Notwithstanding the immense pride we take in all the good he does, we need to acknowledge and accept that he is only human and occasionally makes errors of judgment, particular in moments when emotions are running high. Congrats again to Virginia Tech and Dowdell on the win in Cameron.

bob blue devil
03-26-2016, 08:57 AM
Is it clear K was referring to the shot/celebration and not the hug (or the two combined)? I feel like the hug was obviously poor sportsmanship (trying to rub it in) or stupidity, and far worse than the 3 pointer (I wouldn't have shot it, but i don't see it as a big deal). I believe the quote from k was "you're too good a player".

oldnavy
03-26-2016, 09:02 AM
I agree. Yadda, yadda, yadda... So the long-time coach of the U.S. National team, the winner of five NCAA championships, and all-time winningest college basketball coach gives some avuncular advice to the other team's star. He does it with a smile on the face and a pat on the back. Then he chooses not to hash it out in the press. How is this a controversy?

It takes a village right?
The kid should be honored that coach K thought enough about him to give him some very good advice.

Funny nobody has a problem with the advice given, just that advice was given...

Folks that have an issue need to look at the big picture IMO.

CDu
03-26-2016, 09:06 AM
TONS of teams do the same thing every single game. Duke did it seven seconds later.

And that remains the biggest problem - the insane double standard Duke has to live with because of the world filled with pathetic Duke haters.

Coach K would NEVER call a kid out publicly, especially at a press conference. Yet that's exactly what the reporter is trying to get him to do there. So the focus turns into Coach K being a liar. Except that Brooks was a complete classless jerk the entire game, including that three pointer.

Grayson gets violently tripped during the Oregon game. But it happens over the course of a game and guys playing hard and bodies being in contact. No one freaks out and calls for suspensions and labels the kid from Oregon a bad kid for doing it. But Grayson is expected to curl up in the fetal position whenever he gets knocked down so that people don't run into his leg.

Iowa State lost a small time starter to injury at the beginning of the season that left them extremely short in their rotation. They went on to not come close to winning their conference or conference tournament but had a couple nice wins and got a four seed. In the tournament they beat a 13 and then a 12 and they lost pretty badly in the sweet sixteen to the 1 seed. Does this sound familiar? Only here is where it changes - they are being hailed for having a great season and a great tournament run. Duke is getting slammed in the media as being a failure.

It's a pathetic double standard promoted by pathetic media types who know that pathetic, bitter, jealous, wrong Duke haters will eat it up.

You have now brought up Allen getting tripped twice in this thread in complaint about the double-standard with Allen. Surely you can understand the difference between an incidental trip as two cutting players' feet collide (which is what happened in the Oregon game) and a player intentionally tripping a player (which is what Allen did against Louisville and FSU), right? The media didn't get on Allen's case because of the violence of the incidents. They got on his case because of the deliberateness of them. Conversely, nobody brings up the trips of Allen even though his falls were more violent because those were accidental trips. There was no double standard.

Also, the media is not slamming Duke's season as a failure, just like they are not hailing ISU's season as a huge success and great tournament run.

Emerrick
03-26-2016, 09:08 AM
Thanks for setting the record straight for us about Coach K's history. I suppose the man who happens to occupy the top of the hill should be ever mindful of the fact that everyone else can see when he is "doing . . . crap." Notwithstanding the immense pride we take in all the good he does, we need to acknowledge and accept that he is only human and occasionally makes errors of judgment, particular in moments when emotions are running high. Congrats again to Virginia Tech and Dowdell on the win in Cameron.

And It was very appropriate for Coach K to remind kids to always show respect in both wins and losses. It was unnecessary for Dowdell to do what he did and likely unnecessary for Brooks to do what he did. It is more than appropriate for an adult to remind him of this. Calling it crap really makes me question your value system. If a Duke player (such as Grayson) did the same at VT's home, what would the reaction be? I'd have no problem with another Coach telling him to cut it out.

CDu
03-26-2016, 09:14 AM
It takes a village right?
The kid should be honored that coach K thought enough about him to give him some very good advice.

Funny nobody has a problem with the advice given, just that advice was given...

Folks that have an issue need to look at the big picture IMO.

I think the more accurate statement is that the media has a problem with Coach K denying that he gave said advice, even though the player said he did and even though the video clearly shows he did.

This would be much less of a story had he simply said "what I discussed with Brooks is between me and him" or just acknowledged that he said it and praised the kid again. It just wasn't handled well by Coach K. That is okay, he is human and we all make mistakes. It is not the first time Coach has publically erred, and it may not be the last. It is not a huge deal, but he definitely made it more of a deal than necessary with his response in the presser.

arnie
03-26-2016, 09:27 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/25/mike-krzyzewski-dillon-brooks-sportsmanship/82267052/

K didn't say what Brooks said.

It's a non-story.

Oh it's still a story. This morning after summarizing the scores from Friday night, ESPN radio lead-in to next segment featured an established coach talking bad to Oregon player. I turned it off.

gurufrisbee
03-26-2016, 09:36 AM
You have now brought up Allen getting tripped twice in this thread in complaint about the double-standard with Allen. Surely you can understand the difference between an incidental trip as two cutting players' feet collide (which is what happened in the Oregon game) and a player intentionally tripping a player (which is what Allen did against Louisville and FSU), right? The media didn't get on Allen's case because of the violence of the incidents. They got on his case because of the deliberateness of them. Conversely, nobody brings up the trips of Allen even though his falls were more violent because those were accidental trips. There was no double standard.

Also, the media is not slamming Duke's season as a failure, just like they are not hailing ISU's season as a huge success and great tournament run.

I can understand the difference. I've seen the plays live and on replay a thousand times now. Allen wasn't intentionally tripping anyone. If he wanted to intentionally trip someone, there would have been strong, deliberate actions where he force the contact and it would have been violent. Both times they ran into him and he was barely moving at all. It's absolutely a double standard.

And yes, the description of the media's take on Iowa State and Duke's seasons is spot on as well. Perhaps you turn the TV off and have missed it.

CDu
03-26-2016, 09:43 AM
I can understand the difference. I've seen the plays live and on replay a thousand times now. Allen wasn't intentionally tripping anyone. If he wanted to intentionally trip someone, there would have been strong, deliberate actions where he force the contact and it would have been violent. Both times they ran into him and he was barely moving at all. It's absolutely a double standard.

And yes, the description of the media's take on Iowa State and Duke's seasons is spot on as well. Perhaps you turn the TV off and have missed it.

Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think maybe the Duke blue emotions are coloring your opinion, because there is basically no way Allen's trips earlier this year weren't intentional.

bob blue devil
03-26-2016, 09:46 AM
I can understand the difference. I've seen the plays live and on replay a thousand times now. Allen wasn't intentionally tripping anyone. If he wanted to intentionally trip someone, there would have been strong, deliberate actions where he force the contact and it would have been violent. Both times they ran into him and he was barely moving at all. It's absolutely a double standard.


I'm really impressed with your capability in the area of denial. Wow!

rsvman
03-26-2016, 10:06 AM
I would think that Coach K, by now, would've earned the right to tell an opposing player whatever he wants to after the game is over. If what K said was "You're too good a player, etc." it's really just a small piece of fatherly advice wrapped in a compliment, IMO. The player should be flattered that Coach K thought enough of him as a player to attempt to steer him into better behavior. The time should never come that a respected, successful coach isn't allowed to offer advice. Brooks is the one who screwed up in the presser, IMO. When the reported asked him what Coach K said to him, he could easily have said that the conversation was meant to be between Coach K and himself. If he says this, the story is over before it even begins. Or, this would be an appropriate time for a "white lie" such as "he told me I played well," or "he congratulated me on a good game," and then let it go at that.

Coach could easily have handled the presser differently, as well. He should have either said it was a private conversation, or own up to what he said, IMO.


And, oh, by the way, for whomever said Coach K has a history of doing "this kind of crap" after a loss, are you aware of the fact that after Duke lost a particularly painful game to Indiana in the tournament Coach K went onto the Indiana team bus to offer congratulations for a game well played? That's crap, too? Interesting how much more publicity the Brooks incident got than the Indiana game bus incident.

devilseven
03-26-2016, 10:33 AM
I'm really impressed with your capability in the area of denial. Wow!

I was at the FSU game, sitting on the same side as the "tripping incident". Only a few seconds remained in the game. Grayson was walking away from the FSU player with his back turned. The FSU player ran by Grayson grabbing his jersey at the same time pushing him. When he felt the push and jersey pull, Grayson instinctively moved his left foot backwards in retaliation. The referee was standing less than 10 feet away, looking directly at the two players, and made NO call. However, he did go over to the FSU player and said something to him. It looked like the referee was telling him that he got what he deserved. Alas there were no lip readers to confirm or deny. Was the trip a deliberate act? Yes. Was it a justified retaliation? Who knows, evidently the referee thought so.

CDu
03-26-2016, 10:42 AM
I was at the FSU game, sitting on the same side as the "tripping incident". Only a few seconds remained in the game. Grayson was walking away from the FSU player with his back turned. The FSU player ran by Grayson grabbing his jersey at the same time pushing him. When he felt the push and jersey pull, Grayson instinctively moved his left foot backwards in retaliation. The referee was standing less than 10 feet away, looking directly at the two players, and made NO call. However, he did go over to the FSU player and said something to him. It looked like the referee was telling him that he got what he deserved. Alas there were no lip readers to confirm or deny. Was the trip a deliberate act? Yes. Was it a justified retaliation? Who knows, evidently the referee thought so.

Either that or the ref missed the trip and only saw the retalliation. Assuming the ref saw the whole thing is... well... a big assumption. Especially since I doubt you were watching both the players involved AND the official involved. Especially since it happened away from where the ball was, which is where most fans focus their attention.

I HIGHLY doubt the ref told a player that they got what they deserved in relation to a trip. That would seem to be a firable offense for a ref.

gurufrisbee
03-26-2016, 11:04 AM
Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think maybe the Duke blue emotions are coloring your opinion, because there is basically no way Allen's trips earlier this year weren't intentional.

Nope. I have no problem with calling out Duke players when they are wrong. Laettner should have been thrown out for the stomp. Winslow was wrong to extend his foot into that player (forgot what team). Those were intentional and deliberate and they made the effort to force the contact.

Dukehky
03-26-2016, 11:16 AM
Nope. I have no problem with calling out Duke players when they are wrong. Laettner should have been thrown out for the stomp. Winslow was wrong to extend his foot into that player (forgot what team). Those were intentional and deliberate and they made the effort to force the contact.

Winslow grabbed people's legs twice last year and kicked Brice in the nuts. Literally nothing was said about it. Duke players get treated worse than players of any other college basketball team by people outside the Duke world, so I understand if some of their frustrations surface from time to time. I would actually prefer Marshall to have gone off and tackled someone, but whatever.

CDu
03-26-2016, 11:17 AM
Nope. I have no problem with calling out Duke players when they are wrong. Laettner should have been thrown out for the stomp. Winslow was wrong to extend his foot into that player (forgot what team). Those were intentional and deliberate and they made the effort to force the contact.

Well, sorry, but both of those trips by Allen were intentional. Coach K and Allen have basically said as much. You are in the vast minority on this one, even among Duke fans.

Is it the worst thing ever? No. Is Allen a bad guy for having done it? No. Has the media gone too far? Absolutely. But were those trips intentional? Yeah, they were.

CDu
03-26-2016, 11:19 AM
Winslow grabbed people's legs twice last year and kicked Brice in the nuts. Literally nothing was said about it. Duke players get treated worse than players of any other college basketball team by people outside the Duke world, so I understand if some of their frustrations surface from time to time. I would actually prefer Marshall to have gone off and tackled someone, but whatever.

People definitely talked about it. They definitely talked less about it than they have with Allen though.

Rich
03-26-2016, 11:24 AM
FIFY


Winslow grabbed people's legs twice last year and kicked Brice in the nuts. Literally nothing was said about it. White Duke players get treated worse than players of any other college basketball team by people outside the Duke world, so I understand if some of their frustrations surface from time to time. I would actually prefer Marshall to have gone off and tackled someone, but whatever.

Troublemaker
03-26-2016, 11:24 AM
Really? Do we have stats on this? I thought it was a particular strength. It seemed to me he has excellent control, spin and angle on his layups, making seemingly impossible and difficult shots with consistency. I always felt very comfortable when he drove instead of taking threes.

Am I wrong here? Any quantitative measures available?

Derryck shot 52% at the rim (http://hoop-math.com/Duke2016.php) this season, which is actually good because earlier in the season he was hovering in the low 40s. This means he improved and became a good finisher by the end of the season. And he should become a GREAT finisher by the end of his career because as you noted, he has command of spins and angles on his layups.

I think we are all hoping that Derryck has a big offseason and makes a significant frosh-to-soph jump into becoming an efficient starting PG for Duke. He doesn't have to be a star as of yet next season, but we can't have a PG that is sub-100 in offensive rating like he was this season. And we won't; I do expect Derryck to make a leap.

As azzefkram noted upthread, a lot of it has to do with shot selection. I think he needs to cut down on shooting long 2s -- especially during 1-on-3 fastbreaks -- or start making them at a higher rate. Use the offseason to extend his range on his jumper so that he's taking more threes and hitting, say, 37%.

And then, hopefully, with more experience and a full summer to interact and play pickup with his teammates, he can execute passes better next season, not forcing them when the opening isn't there. And hopefully he can read the floor better and find more passing angles to create assists for his teammates. He's not a natural with that stuff like Bobby or Tyus, but I believe he can make incremental improvements each season.

devilseven
03-26-2016, 11:26 AM
Either that or the ref missed the trip and only saw the retalliation. Assuming the ref saw the whole thing is... well... a big assumption. Especially since I doubt you were watching both the players involved AND the official involved. Especially since it happened away from where the ball was, which is where most fans focus their attention.

I HIGHLY doubt the ref told a player that they got what they deserved in relation to a trip. That would seem to be a firable offense for a ref.

I saw the incident happen. Then, I saw the referee go over to the "tripped" player and say something to him. It was not a sympathetic conversation. The FSU player had been pushing and mouthing at Grayson the whole game. The game was over with Duke up about 15 points and trying to let the clock run out and the FSU player was still acting like and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

sbpollo
03-26-2016, 11:27 AM
Maybe I am wrong but it looks like Brooks took 4 steps before taking that 3???

Troublemaker
03-26-2016, 11:40 AM
Also, to reply to some Derryck discussion upthread, he definitely can be the starting PG on a championship team.

His entire package -- defense, quickness/speed, dribble skills, finishing, and hopefully improving passing/vision -- has a ceiling that is NOT lower and is arguably higher than Frank Mason's, London Perrantes', Joel Berry's, Ryan Arciadacano's, and Casey Benson's.

I fully expect one of those PGs to win it all this season. For Derryck, it's just about continuing to improve to eventually reach his ceiling.

Eternal Outlaw
03-26-2016, 11:53 AM
I would think that Coach K, by now, would've earned the right to tell an opposing player whatever he wants to after the game is over. If what K said was "You're too good a player, etc." it's really just a small piece of fatherly advice wrapped in a compliment, IMO. The player should be flattered that Coach K thought enough of him as a player to attempt to steer him into better behavior. The time should never come that a respected, successful coach isn't allowed to offer advice. Brooks is the one who screwed up in the presser, IMO. When the reported asked him what Coach K said to him, he could easily have said that the conversation was meant to be between Coach K and himself. If he says this, the story is over before it even begins. Or, this would be an appropriate time for a "white lie" such as "he told me I played well," or "he congratulated me on a good game," and then let it go at that.

Coach could easily have handled the presser differently, as well. He should have either said it was a private conversation, or own up to what he said, IMO.


And, oh, by the way, for whomever said Coach K has a history of doing "this kind of crap" after a loss, are you aware of the fact that after Duke lost a particularly painful game to Indiana in the tournament Coach K went onto the Indiana team bus to offer congratulations for a game well played? That's crap, too? Interesting how much more publicity the Brooks incident got than the Indiana game bus incident.

Or visiting the Mercer locker room to congratulate them. Some non Duke fans took that as K trying to get into or take their spotlight or some non sense.

It's funny, every handshake line I've ever seen him go through he'll stop and at least engage one player win or lose, none of those matter because not an interesting story.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 12:04 PM
And It was very appropriate for Coach K to remind kids to always show respect in both wins and losses. It was unnecessary for Dowdell to do what he did and likely unnecessary for Brooks to do what he did. It is more than appropriate for an adult to remind him of this. Calling it crap really makes me question your value system. If a Duke player (such as Grayson) did the same at VT's home, what would the reaction be? I'd have no problem with another Coach telling him to cut it out.

Stray didn't call it crap. He was referring to HokieEngineer who called K's (alleged) action/s crap. Start naming the incidents that Duke players have barked/woofed/preened/flexed/etc at other teams' benches in a celebratory fashion during the waning moments of an obvious victory (or dunked/or otherwise scored unnecessarily) and then let us know what you think K's reaction/s might have been to those. I think the list will be short (not zero) and might (would?) have been dealt with internally. As (I think) Vince Lombardi said, "Act like you've been there before." Or, IOW, win/lose, STFU, shake hands and go home.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 12:11 PM
Or visiting the Mercer locker room to congratulate them. Some non Duke fans took that as K trying to get into or take their spotlight or some non sense.

It's funny, every handshake line I've ever seen him go through he'll stop and at least engage one player win or lose, none of those matter because not an interesting story.

Same reason he visited Paul George in the hospital after he broke his leg. That K fella is always looking out for publicity and/or himself. :rolleyes:

Embrace the hatred.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 12:13 PM
Maybe I am wrong but it looks like Brooks took 4 steps before taking that 3???

Bjornolf posted that, too. That would have been quite amusing had the ref called that and Oregon ended up with a turnover that their coach didn't want anyway. :rolleyes:

75Crazie
03-26-2016, 12:26 PM
Nope. I have no problem with calling out Duke players when they are wrong. Laettner should have been thrown out for the stomp.
What stomp?

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 12:44 PM
Derryck shot 52% at the rim (http://hoop-math.com/Duke2016.php) this season, which is actually good because earlier in the season he was hovering in the low 40s. This means he improved and became a good finisher by the end of the season. And he should become a GREAT finisher by the end of his career because as you noted, he has command of spins and angles on his layups.

I think we are all hoping that Derryck has a big offseason and makes a significant frosh-to-soph jump into becoming an efficient starting PG for Duke. He doesn't have to be a star as of yet next season, but we can't have a PG that is sub-100 in offensive rating like he was this season. And we won't; I do expect Derryck to make a leap.

As azzefkram noted upthread, a lot of it has to do with shot selection. I think he needs to cut down on shooting long 2s -- especially during 1-on-3 fastbreaks -- or start making them at a higher rate. Use the offseason to extend his range on his jumper so that he's taking more threes and hitting, say, 37%.

And then, hopefully, with more experience and a full summer to interact and play pickup with his teammates, he can execute passes better next season, not forcing them when the opening isn't there. And hopefully he can read the floor better and find more passing angles to create assists for his teammates. He's not a natural with that stuff like Bobby or Tyus, but I believe he can make incremental improvements each season.

Thank you for this and thank you for the link.

I can see that Matt has a percentage below 40%, so it's good to see my eye-test evaluation has some merit. I do note that Luke's percentage is higher than DTs, but my eye-test didn't tell me that. Perhaps it's due to DTs improvement through the season.

I'd love to know, though, what would an elite percentage be for a guard? Clearly 4s and 5s would be higher due to more dunk and put-back opportunities, but guards?

I'm new to this stat so would love some education and context.

Thanks!

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 12:47 PM
What stomp?

He meant the tap with the front part of his toes as he extended his ankle. Certainly there was no stomp which would imply bringing the full weight and force of his leg and entire foot onto the other players chest.

He was just a little confused.

rsvman
03-26-2016, 01:16 PM
Yahoo Sports now reporting that they have audio proof that Coach K said exactly what Brooks said he did. What a surprise!

K could have handled it better in the presser, to be sure, but I don't have any problem at all with what he said to Brooks. Kind of interesting how far off the lip-readers were from the supposed audio. Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode....

devildeac
03-26-2016, 01:32 PM
Yahoo Sports now reporting that they have audio proof that Coach K said exactly what Brooks said he did. What a surprise!

K could have handled it better in the presser, to be sure, but I don't have any problem at all with what he said to Brooks. Kind of interesting how far off the lip-readers were from the supposed audio. Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode...

And, if played backwards, it likely says, "Paul is dead." :rolleyes:

fuse
03-26-2016, 02:28 PM
Real leadership includes owning your mistakes:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4699848-duke-march-madness-2016-coach-k-krzyzewski-apologizes-dillon-brooks-oregon

Kedsy
03-26-2016, 02:29 PM
I'd love to know, though, what would an elite percentage be for a guard? Clearly 4s and 5s would be higher due to more dunk and put-back opportunities, but guards?

I don't know what would be considered elite, but Grayson Allen shot 61.1% at the rim this season. Last season, Tyus Jones shot 55.6% at the rim and Quinn Cook shot 66.7% at the rim. Austin Rivers shot 58.2% at the rim in 2012, Seth Curry shot 55.6% at the rim in 2013. I don't have data before that.

For further context, this season Buddy Hield is shooting 63.8% at the rim, Kris Dunn was 62.6%, Demetrius Jackson is 61.0%, Melo Trimble was 68.9%, Jamal Murray was 65.5%, Tyler Ulis was 57.8%, Isaiah Briscoe was 59.4%, Yogi Ferrell was 58.9%, Marcus Paige is 49.0%, and Joel Berry is 68.4%. If you want further comps, consult HoopMath.com (http://hoop-math.com/index.php).

duke74
03-26-2016, 03:03 PM
And, if played backwards, it likely says, "Paul is dead." :rolleyes:

But is he the Walrus?

CDu
03-26-2016, 03:03 PM
I saw the incident happen. Then, I saw the referee go over to the "tripped" player and say something to him. It was not a sympathetic conversation. The FSU player had been pushing and mouthing at Grayson the whole game. The game was over with Duke up about 15 points and trying to let the clock run out and the FSU player was still acting like and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

And as I said, the most likely scenario is that the ref didn't see the trip, but saw the retaliation.

Devilwin
03-26-2016, 03:31 PM
Wow. The off-season came up on us pretty darn fast

How is giving a player a "grade" of "D" any different than saying: "he sucked?" That just doesn't fly on this board.

Ok. I apologize. They all deserved an A grade, as all were great all season long. Now, let's see what we can dig up what others said about players here that didn't cause a fuss. I saw much worse, especially about Matt. I'm done with this. Seems like we all deserve a participation trophy, for crying out loud..

devildeac
03-26-2016, 04:35 PM
But is he the Walrus?

Well, as the lyrics say, "The walrus was Paul." ;)

azzefkram
03-26-2016, 04:41 PM
I don't know what would be considered elite, but Grayson Allen shot 61.1% at the rim this season. Last season, Tyus Jones shot 55.6% at the rim and Quinn Cook shot 66.7% at the rim. Austin Rivers shot 58.2% at the rim in 2012, Seth Curry shot 55.6% at the rim in 2013. I don't have data before that.

For further context, this season Buddy Hield is shooting 63.8% at the rim, Kris Dunn was 62.6%, Demetrius Jackson is 61.0%, Melo Trimble was 68.9%, Jamal Murray was 65.5%, Tyler Ulis was 57.8%, Isaiah Briscoe was 59.4%, Yogi Ferrell was 58.9%, Marcus Paige is 49.0%, and Joel Berry is 68.4%. If you want further comps, consult HoopMath.com (http://hoop-math.com/index.php).

I'd guess north of 55% is good, north of 60% is very good and north of 65% would be elite for a guard, Those seem like reasonable numbers when compared to their 3pt shooting counterparts.

hallcity
03-26-2016, 05:50 PM
Why am I gratified and not a bit surprised that Oregon is getting blown out by Oklahoma? The Sooners are very worthy of going to the Final Four but Oregon isn't good. I was frustrated by Duke's loss to Oregon. Duke played poorly.

FerryFor50
03-26-2016, 06:31 PM
Why am I gratified and not a bit surprised that Oregon is getting blown out by Oklahoma? The Sooners are very worthy of going to the Final Four but Oregon isn't good. I was frustrated by Duke's loss to Oregon. Duke played poorly.

As I said in game chat, Duke and Oregon were playing for the chance to get walloped by Oklahoma.

Elite 8 would have been nice, but not at the cost of a blowout.

FerryFor50
03-26-2016, 06:32 PM
Well, as the lyrics say, "The walrus was Paul." ;)

Or is he the Paulus?

DukieInKansas
03-26-2016, 06:56 PM
And as I said, the most likely scenario is that the ref didn't see the trip, but saw the retaliation.

I thought the trip was the retaliation.

JNort
03-26-2016, 07:56 PM
I am not saying DT will not become a serviceable point guard. Duke has had a lot of those. I was just mentioning the great ones, the ones with the vision, the court presence, the big game swagger to lead their teams to a championship.

You are watching a different game if you think DT is in the same league as Hurley, JWill, and Tyus (Kyrie, we hardly knew him, but he would have been up there, too). Hurley was freshman PG of a team that went to the finals. We did not need your stats to see that he already had "it" then and he got even better during their back-to-backs.

If DT develops into another Wojo, Paulus, Avery, Cook, etc - ok, fine. That is serviceable. Given the choice, I would prefer more - someone with the instincts and other qualities that were evident with Duke's great PGs from their first footsteps in Cameron.

But what you and many others fail to understand is something called natural progression which happens to most players from year to year. DT got about 8 mins less per game than guys like Hurley and JWill and his shooting percentage from 2 was much better than Hurley and his 3 point shot while not as good is decent for a freshmen at 33%, look for that to be closer to 36 or so next year. Don't forget he got here while he was still supposed to be in high school and also misses out on the early season workouts due to high school.

He also is not as sloppy as people seem to think. He has had fewer turnovers per 40 mins than Hurley and JWill by almost half and he was on a less talented team than those guys. He also turns it over less than Kyrie and is almost completely on par with Tyus in that regard.

His ceiling isn't what Kyrie's or Jay's was but he isnt a scoring pg like them nor as pass heavy as Bobby was. He is probably a hybrid of sorts. I could see his career avg around 15ppg with 5apg maybe higher

subzero02
03-26-2016, 08:13 PM
I am not saying DT will not become a serviceable point guard. Duke has had a lot of those. I was just mentioning the great ones, the ones with the vision, the court presence, the big game swagger to lead their teams to a championship.

You are watching a different game if you think DT is in the same league as Hurley, JWill, and Tyus (Kyrie, we hardly knew him, but he would have been up there, too). Hurley was freshman PG of a team that went to the finals. We did not need your stats to see that he already had "it" then and he got even better during their back-to-backs.

If DT develops into another Wojo, Paulus, Avery, Cook, etc - ok, fine. That is serviceable. Given the choice, I would prefer more - someone with the instincts and other qualities that were evident with Duke's great PGs from their first footsteps in Cameron.

Will Avery doesn't belong in this group. He was an incredible college player whose pro career never panned out. Calling him a serviceable point guard is definitely a misrepresentation of his talent. He was the 14th draft pick in the 1999 draft and the starting point guard for the Duke team some consider to be the greatest of all time. The other players you mentioned went undrafted and two never came close to sniffing the NBA. If Thornton's play next year approaches the level of Avery's play as a sophomore, we are going to embarssingly good ( that's probably going to be the case even if Thornton only makes a moderate improvement... don't forget about Jackson)

Doctor Joe
03-26-2016, 09:04 PM
But what you and many others fail to understand is something called natural progression which happens to most players from year to year. DT got about 8 mins less per game than guys like Hurley and JWill and his shooting percentage from 2 was much better than Hurley and his 3 point shot while not as good is decent for a freshmen at 33%, look for that to be closer to 36 or so next year. Don't forget he got here while he was still supposed to be in high school and also misses out on the early season workouts due to high school.

He also is not as sloppy as people seem to think. He has had fewer turnovers per 40 mins than Hurley and JWill by almost half and he was on a less talented team than those guys. He also turns it over less than Kyrie and is almost completely on par with Tyus in that regard.

His ceiling isn't what Kyrie's or Jay's was but he isnt a scoring pg like them nor as pass heavy as Bobby was. He is probably a hybrid of sorts. I could see his career avg around 15ppg with 5apg maybe higher

"But what you and many others fail to understand..."

Hey JNort, please do not insult my intelligence, okay? Of course players will improve with age, hard work, and experience." And you are going to use statistics to try to favorably compare DT with Tyus? Come on, man. :o)

I love all the players on my team. They all try their best. So I am certainly not going to attack them. And I think most of the people on here feel the same way about the team and ultimately want the same thing.

We all know DT's back story. That is all nice and good. Still, it is not some kind of sacrilege to like a kid and still question whether he has everything it takes to lead this team to the top of the mountain. Time will tell. Opinions differ. There is nothing wrong with that. No need for the insult. Thanks...

weezie
03-26-2016, 09:17 PM
I'd still like to know why Duke must carry Brian Kersey's sorry behind in so many games. Just pondering....

Doctor Joe
03-26-2016, 09:20 PM
Will Avery doesn't belong in this group. He was an incredible college player whose pro career never panned out. Calling him a serviceable point guard is definitely a misrepresentation of his talent. He was the 14th draft pick in the 1999 draft and the starting point guard for the Duke team some consider to be the greatest of all time. The other players you mentioned went undrafted and two never came close to sniffing the NBA. If Thornton's play next year approaches the level of Avery's play as a sophomore, we are going to embarssingly good ( that's probably going to be the case even if Thornton only makes a moderate improvement... don't forget about Jackson)

Good point. Not questioning Avery's talent. I understand the financial aspect, but he left too soon. I think he would have been better served and may not have flamed out in the association with at least one more year at Duke honing his craft. I hope it works out better for Tyus.

NashvilleDevil
03-26-2016, 09:27 PM
Good point. Not questioning Avery's talent. I understand the financial aspect, but he left too soon. I think he would have been better served and may not have flamed out in the association with at least one more year at Duke honing his craft. I hope it works out better for Tyus.

Your comment wasn't about Avery in the league it was about Avery at Duke. Avery was a very good player his sophomore on a loaded team. If Thornton turns in a year like Avery had in 98-99 than Duke is going to be tough to beat.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-26-2016, 09:55 PM
Good point. Not questioning Avery's talent. I understand the financial aspect, but he left too soon. I think he would have been better served and may not have flamed out in the association with at least one more year at Duke honing his craft. I hope it works out better for Tyus.

Avery's leaving early for the NBA allowed Jason Williams to become Duke's #1 point guard in 1999-2000. If Avery had stayed, JWill would likely have been his backup and gotten somewhat less playing time (and less point guard experience) his freshman year. Would Duke still have been able to win the 2001 championship if JWill had not gained that add'l PT in 2000 (if Avery hadn't left)?

devildeac
03-26-2016, 10:17 PM
I'd still like to know why Duke must carry Brian Kersey's sorry behind in so many games. Just pondering...

Blind luck? :rolleyes:

Doctor Joe
03-26-2016, 10:40 PM
Avery's leaving early for the NBA allowed Jason Williams to become Duke's #1 point guard in 1999-2000. If Avery had stayed, JWill would likely have been his backup and gotten somewhat less playing time (and less point guard experience) his freshman year. Would Duke still have been able to win the 2001 championship if JWill had not gained that add'l PT in 2000 (if Avery hadn't left)?

Great point! Thank you for leaving, William. :) And thinking back, I guess I did slight Avery by lumping him as serviceable. I think of that team and I think of Elton and Trajan - and even Corey. But Avery was pretty good!! :o

Kedsy
03-26-2016, 11:06 PM
Derek Thornton. Has talent, can handle the ball well, but is turnover prone.

Duke point guards' freshman season, turnovers per 40 minutes, during Coach K era:

Daniel Ewing*: 1.8 to/40
Jon Scheyer*: 1.9
Quinn Cook: 1.9
Chris Duhon: 2.2
Tyus Jones: 2.3
Derryck Thornton: 2.5
Austin Rivers**: 2.8
Jeff Capel: 3.0
Steve Wojciechowski: 3.1
Tommy Amaker: 3.3
Will Avery: 3.6
Kyrie Irving: 3.6
Nolan Smith*: 3.9
Sean Dockery*: 4.1
Greg Paulus: 4.1
Johnny Dawkins: 4.1
Jason Williams: 4.8
Bobby Hurley: 5.2
Quin Snyder: 5.5

* - Ewing, Dockery, Scheyer, and Smith didn't really play PG as freshmen (though they did in at least one later season)
** - Rivers didn't really play PG, but the 2012 team didn't really have a PG, and Rivers had the ball in his hands a lot

Anyway, looking at the above, while there were things Derryck may not have done so well this season, calling him "turnover prone" would seem to be inaccurate, at least compared to most other freshman Duke PGs.


.

-jk
03-26-2016, 11:16 PM
Duke point guards' freshman season, turnovers per 40 minutes, during Coach K era:

Daniel Ewing*: 1.8 to/40
Jon Scheyer*: 1.9
Quinn Cook: 1.9
Chris Duhon: 2.2
Tyus Jones: 2.3
Derryck Thornton: 2.5
Austin Rivers**: 2.8
Jeff Capel: 3.0
Steve Wojciechowski: 3.1
Tommy Amaker: 3.3
Will Avery: 3.6
Kyrie Irving: 3.6
Nolan Smith*: 3.9
Sean Dockery*: 4.1
Greg Paulus: 4.1
Johnny Dawkins: 4.1
Jason Williams: 4.8
Bobby Hurley: 5.2
Quin Snyder: 5.5

* - Ewing, Dockery, Scheyer, and Smith didn't really play PG as freshmen
** - Rivers didn't really play PG, but the 2012 team didn't really have a PG, and Rivers had the ball in his hands a lot

Anyway, looking at the above, while there were things Derryck may not have done well this season, calling him "turnover prone" would seem to be inaccurate, at least compared to most other freshman Duke PGs.

Four of our six all-time assist leaders at the top/bottom of the list!

Best thing about frosh? They become sophs (except when they don't <sigh>).

-jk

Steven43
03-27-2016, 02:36 AM
Duke point guards' freshman season, turnovers per 40 minutes, during Coach K era:

Daniel Ewing*: 1.8 to/40
Jon Scheyer*: 1.9
Quinn Cook: 1.9
Chris Duhon: 2.2
Tyus Jones: 2.3
Derryck Thornton: 2.5
Austin Rivers**: 2.8
Jeff Capel: 3.0
Steve Wojciechowski: 3.1
Tommy Amaker: 3.3
Will Avery: 3.6
Kyrie Irving: 3.6
Nolan Smith*: 3.9
Sean Dockery*: 4.1
Greg Paulus: 4.1
Johnny Dawkins: 4.1
Jason Williams: 4.8
Bobby Hurley: 5.2
Quin Snyder: 5.5

* - Ewing, Dockery, Scheyer, and Smith didn't really play PG as freshmen (though they did in at least one later season)
** - Rivers didn't really play PG, but the 2012 team didn't really have a PG, and Rivers had the ball in his hands a lot

Anyway, looking at the above, while there were things Derryck may not have done so well this season, calling him "turnover prone" would seem to be inaccurate, at least compared to most other freshman Duke PGs.


.
I don't think those numbers necessarily mean much at all. This might well be a perfect example of how statistics can lie. If a PG plays it safe as a general rule of thumb and simply brings the ball up relatively unmolested and then executes a safe pass to a teammate outside the 3-point line (a la Tyler Thornton, Jon Scheyer, or Matt Jones) turnovers are going to be minimal. The PG with both a great handle and great passing ability will not play it safe and will instead attempt to break down the defense by penetrating directly into its heart and forcing defenders to leave their man to help stop penetration, often resulting in an open teammate breaking towards the basket and scoring easily

This style of play is much higher-risk and often leads to a signiicantly elevated turnover percentage when compared to the play-it-safe PG, but the rewards are MUCH greater. Examples of this type of PG are Jason Williams, Bobby Hurley, Kyrie irving, and Tyus Jones. To this point in his career Derryck Thornton has neither the handles nor the passing ability and vision to fit into this category. He's much more closely aligned with the play-it-safe crowd.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-27-2016, 06:30 AM
I don't think those numbers necessarily mean much at all. This might well be a perfect example of how statistics can lie.

Well, what these particular numbers mean is that DT is nt "turnover prone." No statistical lie there.

Devilwin
03-27-2016, 06:47 AM
Ok, whatever. I didn't look up his stats vs Hurley and the others. Was going by what I saw on the court. I like the kid, and think he will be a good point guard in the future.
Sorry for the error..:rolleyes:

CDu
03-27-2016, 08:24 AM
Well, what these particular numbers mean is that DT is nt "turnover prone." No statistical lie there.

One can be turnover prone without committing a lot of turnovers. If you aren't given a lot of opportunities to turn it over, you will commit fewer turnovers.

Thornton didn't actually play much PG this year. Instead, we ran an offense that utilized all our our guards/wings to run the offense. Contrast that with Hurley and Williams, who were handed the reins from day 1.

If Thornton had been given that kind of responsibility, I would expect his turnover rate to have been much higher than it was, because he is turnover-prone.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-27-2016, 08:45 AM
One can be turnover prone without committing a lot of turnovers. If you aren't given a lot of opportunities to turn it over, you will commit fewer turnovers.

Thornton didn't actually play much PG this year. Instead, we ran an offense that utilized all our our guards/wings to run the offense. Contrast that with Hurley and Williams, who were handed the reins from day 1.

If Thornton had been given that kind of responsibility, I would expect his turnover rate to have been much higher than it was, because he is turnover-prone.

I would suggest that if someone has a tendency towards turnovers that their per 40 TO/game wouldn't be THAT low regardless of how often the ball is in theit hands.

Unless we are talking about someone who is "turnover prone," but also never touches the ball.

CDu
03-27-2016, 09:34 AM
I would suggest that if someone has a tendency towards turnovers that their per 40 TO/game wouldn't be THAT low regardless of how often the ball is in theit hands.

Unless we are talking about someone who is "turnover prone," but also never touches the ball.

There are varying degrees of turnover prone, just as there are varying degrees of player usage/responsibilty. It is quite conceivable that Thornton had half the responsibility and/or half the touches that Hurley had, considering that Hurley was the PG and Thornton wasn't. If so, one would expect him to have half the turnover rate.

devildeac
03-27-2016, 09:47 AM
Or is he the Paulus?

Goo goo k'joob (or something like that)

BD80
03-27-2016, 09:55 AM
Goo goo k'joob (or something like that)

A diaper dandy?