the 2000 lb elephant in the room

[moonpie23]

you all know what it is...

could this be the year?

[elvis14]

It would be a sweet victory! 9F

[uh_no]

you all know what it is...

could this be the year?

i'm sorry...i'm lost?

[DukeTrinity11]

I've been anxiously dreading the possibility of that for so many years now because it would give one side so much leverage over the other but not this year...this year we have little to lose and nearly everything to gain so if it does indeed comes to fruition on April 4th, so be it!

[fan345678]

Why the tiny elephant?

[madscavenger]

Go west until you reach Dallas, then turn south until you reach repeat.

[msdukie]

Please no. I'm not interested in the End of the Universe. Ever.

[gurufrisbee]

Never happen. Both teams are way too flawed.

[uh_no]

Never happen. Both teams are way too flawed.

ah. I got it now. I can't imagine what it was like for UL and UK to face eachother a few years ago in the final 4.

I have no interest in ending a night with the chance of the cheats celebrating at the cost of a duke title game loss.

That said, who's going to beat the cheat? There's no one left in their region really going to put up a fight. They've beaten UVA on a neutral floor (and kept them close away). kansas? Oklahoma? UNC currently has the best chance of ANY team to be in the final 4 AND title game (per 538). Flawed? Maybe...but even a beat up buggy can travel good road.

Duke on the other hand....we'd have to roll oregon, THEN oklahoma, THEN kansas....which is why we're rocking 6%.

SO currently the 2000 lb elephant is about about a .021 pound elephant

[cato]

Never happen. Both teams are way too flawed.

Which could be said about ANY two teams left standing.

That said, I'm more concerned with foul than ungulates at this moment.

[meowmix911]

you all know what it is...

could this be the year?

a little premature for that kind of talk is it not? let's at least see if we can win the next one...

[moonpie23]

it's ALWAYS premature for the 2000 lb elephant....

[burnspbesq]

Please no. I'm not interested in the End of the Universe. Ever.

The End of the Universe has happened once before. 1992, women's soccer. They had Hamm, Lilly, and Venturini. We had ... college soccer players, a team in its first-ever appearance in the tournament that made an improbable run to the final.

It was not pretty.

[turnandburn55]

No

No no no no no no no

No.

Please no.

I thought I was a nervous wreck when we were down 9 to Wisconsin and down 17 to Maryland in 2001.

This would be the end of basketball as we know it.

No.

[BandAlum83]

I'm pretty sure my head would explode sometime on the Sunday before the event. If not, the stress would build sometime Monday mid afternoon resulting in one of the following: ruptured anyeurism, stroke, heart attack, complete mental breakdown, sudden onset blindness, sudden onset loss of hearing, hives, disgusting rash with puss-like seepage, catatonic state.

I can't handle that right now. Would rather just skip to Tuesday to find out the positive result and watch the I stand classic rerun on ESPN Classic.

[Olympic Fan]

That said, who's going to beat the cheat? There's no one left in their region really going to put up a fight. They've beaten UVA on a neutral floor (and kept them close away). kansas? Oklahoma?


Who was going to beat Michigan State?

Who was going to beat Kentucky last year?

Long, LONG way to go before worrying about a Duke-UNC title game -- a long way for either team.

Worry about it when and if we both get to Houston.

PS I would strongly favor Virginia in a rematch in the national semifinals.

[throatybeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMTAUr3Nm6I

[subzero02]

Why the tiny elephant?

It's a pygmy elephant

[MarkD83]

Yes it could be the year for 4 ACC teams in the final four.

It will be fun to watch Duke v Miami and UVA v Notre Dame.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If it didn't happen in 1991... how could it ever happen?

[dukelifer]

you all know what it is...

could this be the year?

I fear the team that won that game would suffer some horrible fate from the basketball gods. For that reason it shall never come to pass.

[WillJ]

In this event, my anxiety would require some serious pre-game medication.

[arnie]

Yes it could be the year for 4 ACC teams in the final four.

It will be fun to watch Duke v Miami and UVA v Notre Dame.

That Final 4 might cost Roy his job. What a glorious buildup it would be in the Triangle area with Heels on sideline.

[gurufrisbee]

That said, who's going to beat the cheat?

Given the first halves they had against Providence and Florida Gulf Coast - ANYONE.

[devildeac]

I have seen the future if this ever occurs and this is me:

6143


After several of these:

6144


No thanks.

Go Hoosiers!!

61456145

[duke blue brewcrew]

That match-up is a bucket list dream come true kind of thing. It's too early to talk about, Duke has a really big game to win on Thursday, and then they have another even bigger one to win after that before this can be discussed

[throatybeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkdhyKpAkRc

[Reilly]

If it didn't happen in 1991... how could it ever happen?

1991: K v. Roy
2016: K v. Roy (25th anniversary edition)

[ClosetHurleyFan]

You guys are funny. But from my unc perspective I have to admit I think I would probably blow a gasket prior to the game much less during it. I would be insufferable, the cursing I might do in front of my kids if duke started pulling away.

[throatybeard]

That match-up is a bucket list dream come true kind of thing. It's too early to talk about, Duke has a really big game to win on Thursday, and then they have another even bigger one to win after that before this can be discussed

If 538's models we may trust, the chances of this matchup occurring are presently 2%. (UNC .34 X Duke .06)

[bluedev_92]

ah. I got it now. I can't imagine what it was like for UL and UK to face eachother a few years ago in the final 4.

I have no interest in ending a night with the chance of the cheats celebrating at the cost of a duke title game loss.

That said, who's going to beat the cheat? There's no one left in their region really going to put up a fight. They've beaten UVA on a neutral floor (and kept them close away). kansas? Oklahoma? UNC currently has the best chance of ANY team to be in the final 4 AND title game (per 538). Flawed? Maybe...but even a beat up buggy can travel good road.

Duke on the other hand...we'd have to roll oregon, THEN oklahoma, THEN kansas...which is why we're rocking 6%.

SO currently the 2000 lb elephant is about about a .021 pound elephant

I understand what you're saying (current outlook), but who says Oklahoma or Kansas will even be around? I don't know what will happen, but there's a very good chance that it won't end up like looking like the chalk line would suggest & we've certainly seen Kansas Self-destruct on several occasions!

[Reilly]

As to the possibility of this happening, it'd be sort of neat if UNC's final loss ever were in the national championship game to Duke, right before the NCAA gives Carolina's program the death penalty for its massive cheating over the last generation. A fitting coda to the whole winners v. losers thing.

[throatybeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNVywbj7vto

[uh_no]

Who was going to beat Michigan State? Well UNC WAS going to beat MSU....


Who was going to beat Kentucky last year? Some of us weren't sold on UK's mostly weak conference schedule and had them losing to ND. Some of us were almost correct...and then vindicated by Wiscy.

I think the ultimate point is UNC has the best chance of any team to make the late rounds, mostly because of how the road has cleared out for them. Claiming that they could get upset isn't really an issue as EVERY team could get upset....so their apparently "flawed" nature doesn't impact that.

[Skitzle]

Question:

Would sentiment about this match-up change if
1. Duke was a 1 seed, had won the ACC Tournament and the latest matchup against UNC, and trample the competition in the first two rounds.
2. UNC was a 4 seed and struggled in Round 1 and 2.

It would change for me :D

[Edouble]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNVywbj7vto

Wow, blast from the past. They used to show that PSA like clockwork, everyday during the first afternoon cartoon at 3:00 PM.

I remember thinking how old and sophisticated those mean boys were. I also never understood why they were trying to give him what I thought was a lollipop stick with no candy on it.

[slower]

Question:

Would sentiment about this match-up change if
1. Duke was a 1 seed, had won the ACC Tournament and the latest matchup against UNC, and trample the competition in the first two rounds.
2. UNC was a 4 seed and struggled in Round 1 and 2.

It would change for me :D

Absolutely. This may not be the best year for us to take them on. Would you rather make it to the final and then lose to UNC (and NEVER - and i mean NEVER - hear the end of it) or have both teams lose before the final? I'm going with choice 2.

Because nothing would suck more than scenario 1.

[rsvman]

No

No no no no no no no

No.

Please no.

I thought I was a nervous wreck when we were down 9 to Wisconsin and down 17 to Maryland in 2001.

This would be the end of basketball as we know it.

No.

Pretty sure we were down 22 to Maryland in the national semifinal, not 17. And yes, it was nerve-wracking.


As for the original question, the answer is a resounding no. Not only not this year, but not ever. This is something that can never, ever take place. Ever. Will not. Cannot. Must not. No, no, a thousand times no.

[Wayne's World-era Mike Myers] Yeah, we're gonna play UNC for the national title. NOT! [/Wayne's World-era Mike Myers]

[Bush senior] Not gun do it. Wouldn't be prudent at this juncture. [/Bush senior]

[office space boss] Umm....yeah. I'm gonna have to ask you to make sure that Duke doesn't play UNC for the national title, mmmkay? That'd be great. [/office space boss]

I tell you what, man, you take that dang ol' Duke and that dang ol' UNC and then dang ol' put'em in the title game, man....naw, man that aint gonna work.

[BD80]

It would be a lot of fun next year at this time

[Kfanarmy]

Absolutely. This may not be the best year for us to take them on. Would you rather make it to the final and then lose to UNC (and NEVER - and i mean NEVER - hear the end of it) or have both teams lose before the final? I'm going with choice 2.

Because nothing would suck more than scenario 1.

yes...but. How sweet would it be to beat the preseason favorite as an underdog in the NCAA tourney and repeat as National Champs by beating UNC...bragging rights fo' eva!

[DukeDevil]

Which could be said about ANY two teams left standing.

That said, I'm more concerned with foul than ungulates at this moment.

While the short bench always makes the foul situation concerning, I'm going to have to cry fowl here (or assume you meant to!).

[slower]

yes...but. How sweet would it be to beat the preseason favorite as an underdog in the NCAA tourney and repeat as National Champs by beating UNC...bragging rights fo' eva!

Yes, but...not worth the risk this year. Can you imagine how insufferable UNC fans would be? And honestly, they'd probably beat us. Just...not...worth...it.

[Skitzle]

It would be a lot of fun next year at this time

Because UNC will have a 100 year ban on making the post-season?

Definitely.

[huey]

Amile hobbles out of the Duke locker room in game clothes. The UNC players all stop shooting warmups and stare at him. Brice Johnson's soul cracks as he realizes his streak of 20 rebound games is over.

[Henderson]

That elephant you see in the room is a hallucination. It happened to Dumbo one time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoysQe-2HS4

There might be an elephant in the room early next month. Right now it's just a duck.

Roast duck.

I'm thinking that's what'll be on the plate Thursday evening in the Henderson household. If the game turns out well, the duck grease dripping down our chins will represent a sacrament. If the game turns out poorly, at least we had roast duck for dinner.

[Dukehky]

I don't care if our 1992 team was going up against UNC's 2010 team. The risk to reward ratio is still just off the scales. I don't ever want us to meet in the tournament. I can barely deal with it in the 2 games I know we have to play against them every year.

Yes, winning would be awesome, but the potential to lose that game is the most dreadful sporting result that could ever happen, and I don't want to risk it. Like, if we were both in the final four this year, and they won the first game, i would almost want Duke to lose the second game. Almost.

[BLPOG]

If 538's models we may trust, the chances of this matchup occurring are presently 2%. (UNC .34 X Duke .06)

Then count me as a member of The Odds Are Too Damn High Party.

I'll need some elephant tranquilizers for the anxiety that would cause me. I'd rather just keep ignoring it until the room gets a little smaller, so to speak.

[slower]

Yes, winning would be awesome, but the potential to lose that game is the most dreadful sporting result that could ever happen

This. Absolutely. This is not the year to risk it, no matter HOW optimistic you are.

[oldnavy]

This. Absolutely. This is not the year to risk it, no matter HOW optimistic you are.

Or... this would be the perfect year to risk it... we go in as big underdogs. We win, we OWN UNC from now on... we lose, we'll we were supposed to lose after all we just won the NC and essentially lost all five starters when Amile went down. We would be able to brag that we got farther than we ever should have....

This scenario is preferable to us meeting them in a year where we are a 1 seed with high expectations and getting upset. I still get crap from my son over Mercer and Lehigh.

Personally I don't ever want to play them in the NCAA's just because I would have to be heavily medicated just to get through the game, and then depending on the results, I may be in therapy for years afterward. Even if we play and win, I would still have to live with my wonderful wife who would be very unhappy for a long time (happy wife = happy life, and vice versa).

Just too much on the line for the OldNavy household...

[cato]

While the short bench always makes the foul situation concerning, I'm going to have to cry fowl here (or assume you meant to!).

Yikes. Guess I'll duck out of the thread now. Sheepishly.

[SlapTheFloor]

Amazing. We played UNC-W last week and everyone was seeing shadows of Lehigh and Mercer. Now we're playing the #1 seed in our region and everyone is already looking past them to the title game. I'm very proud of what this team has accomplished, but we won two close games against the two worst teams we will see in this tournament. I don't know about you, but I'm not booking my flight to Houston just yet.

[devildeac]

Absolutely. This may not be the best year for us to take them on. Would you rather make it to the final and then lose to UNC (and NEVER - and i mean NEVER - hear the end of it) or have both teams lose before the final? I'm going with choice 2.

Because nothing would suck more than scenario 1.

Scenario 3:

2015

They lose (whenever) and we win. Everything. ;)

[OldPhiKap]

No. Never. Not under any circumstances.

No.

[Olympic Fan]

Well UNC WAS going to beat MSU...
Some of us weren't sold on UK's mostly weak conference schedule and had them losing to ND. Some of us were almost correct...and then vindicated by Wiscy.

I think the ultimate point is UNC has the best chance of any team to make the late rounds, mostly because of how the road has cleared out for them. Claiming that they could get upset isn't really an issue as EVERY team could get upset...so their apparently "flawed" nature doesn't impact that.

And some of us aren't sold on UNC's toughness or the tactical brilliance of Huckleberry Hound on the bench. Some of us don't agree that the road has been cleared for them. And some of us don't agree that they are the best chance to make the late rounds (Hello, Kansas!). 538 is a good site and they were pretty good in 2012, but their track record since then is spotty.

Most of all, I'm embarrassed by the reaction of Duke fans in their thread who seem to embrace the worst.

First, there is almost the assumption that UNC will get to the title game

Second, there is an unwarranted assumption that Duke will waltz past Oregon, probably Oklahoma and probably Kansas to get to the title game.

Third, there is the absolutely ridiculous fear that after walking that road, we'll get to the title game and lose to a team that we beat on their home floor.

I'm ashamed of most of you. What a bunch of nervous nellies.

And, finally, allow me to suggest this ... if the worst case happens and UNC wins the title, would you really rather see them beat somebody else in the finals? ... my point being that you'd actually feel better if Duke were to lose to say Oregon to avoid losing to UNC in the title game? I don't get that. I don't want to see UNC win it call (and I don't think they will) ... But I want Duke to go as far as possible ... and if that's a title game loss (which I don't think will happen), then that's better than a Sweet 16 or Elite Eight loss.

[slower]

And, finally, allow me to suggest this ... if the worst case happens and UNC wins the title, would you really rather see them beat somebody else in the finals?.
Um...yes.

Are you freakng serious?

Do you have any idea how obnoxious they would be?

[throatybeard]

I don't care if our 1992 team was going up against UNC's 2010 team. The risk to reward ratio is still just off the scales. I don't ever want us to meet in the tournament. I can barely deal with it in the 2 games I know we have to play against them every year.

^ Okay, see this, y'all? This.

Even if we win, we lose. How do you think they're going to act if they're on the losing end of that? It won't be shutting up, you can bet your last CDO on that.

Look, there's a good chance the New Madrid fault is going to blow like Gary Williams, during my lifetime. It was so, so bad 200 years ago. We don't think about it around here in the New Madrid seismic zone, because there's nothing you can do about it except move away, and if you're not doing that, you're not doing that. There's nothing you can do except hope/pray/deny. There just ain't much point in puttin water jugs up in the basement if the second floor in going to be in the basement. So you live your life, day by day, each one a gift.

Repeat after me. We will not let the CAT5 Carolina Killstorm national final affect our lives. It is not worth preparing for, because no preparations could possibly be made, short of a Helms' Deep-type situation on West Campus. If it does happen, we can only hope that by then our children and children's children have passed from this earth. Or at least til none of them live in North Carolina.

[hurleyfor3]

Google says that's a pretty small elephant.

My narrative will be that we waaaaaaay overachieved to get to the championship game. I miss those years, actually.

[OldPhiKap]

^ Okay, see this, y'all? This.

Even if we win, we lose. How do you think they're going to act if they're on the losing end of that? It won't be shutting up, you can bet your last CDO on that.

Look, there's a good chance the New Madrid fault is going to blow like Gary Williams, during my lifetime. It was so, so bad 200 years ago. We don't think about it around here in the New Madrid seismic zone, because there's nothing you can do about it except move away, and if you're not doing that, you're not doing that. There's nothing you can do except hope/pray/deny. There just ain't much point in puttin water jugs up in the basement if the second floor in going to be in the basement. So you live your life, day by day, each one a gift.

Repeat after me. We will not let the CAT5 Carolina Killstorm national final affect our lives. It is not worth preparing for, because no preparations could possibly be made, short of a Helms' Deep-type situation on West Campus. If it does happen, we can only hope that by then our children and children's children have passed from this earth. Or at least til none of them live in North Carolina.

{drops mic}

[OldPhiKap]

Google says that's a pretty small elephant.



And Wikipedia says that the population of elephants in India has tripled in the last decade.

[throatybeard]

And Wikipedia says that the population of elephants in India has tripled in the last decade.

And what of Carolina fans? I don't know tripling in ten years, but there are more than they were in 2006.

[OldPhiKap]

And what of Carolina fans? I don't know tripling in ten years, but there are more than they were in 2006.

I could be wrong, but I am unaware of any elephant-UNC breeding programs.

[Olympic Fan]

Um...yes.

Are you freakng serious?

Do you have any idea how obnoxious they would be?

And they are not going to be obnoxious if they beat Kansas or Oklahoma in the title game?

Are you freaking serious?

Frankly, I would LOVE the chance to play them in the title game ... that would mean Duke would have made one of the great NCAA runs in history ... and I'm absolutely confident that we would beat them in Houston.

Alas, that's not likely to happen ... UNC will never get that far.

[throatybeard]

I could be wrong, but I am unaware of any elephant-UNC breeding programs.

This is usually where we start making jokes about fake classes, isn't it?

[OldPhiKap]

This is usually where we start making jokes about fake classes, isn't it?

or big trunks.

[devildeac]

And Wikipedia says that the population of elephants in India has tripled in the last decade.


And what of Carolina fans? I don't know tripling in ten years, but there are more than they were in 2006.

Either way, that's still an incredible increase in fertilizer...

[devildeac]

I could be wrong, but I am unaware of any elephant-UNC breeding programs.

Grad level course.

[slower]

And they are not going to be obnoxious if they beat Kansas or Oklahoma in the title game?

Are you freaking serious?

Frankly, I would LOVE the chance to play them in the title game ... that would mean Duke would have made one of the great NCAA runs in history ... and I'm absolutely confident that we would beat them in Houston.

Alas, that's not likely to happen ... UNC will never get that far.

You may be right about ALL of these things, although I doubt it. I'm a Duke fan who works for UNC, so maybe you don't REALLY understand. :p

[Neals384]

Yikes. Guess I'll duck out of the thread now. Sheepishly.

I see what you did there.

[Neals384]

Gosh. I always thought the Elephant in the room was the idea that Duke might have a coaching change some day. But I hadn't noticed Coach K putting on weight, and certainly not 2000 pounds worth. Time enough to discuss this one after the season.

[TruBlu]

I could be wrong, but I am unaware of any elephant-UNC breeding programs.

Elephants have too much class for that!

[BluDvlsN1]

And they are not going to be obnoxious if they beat Kansas or Oklahoma in the title game?

Are you freaking serious?

Frankly, I would LOVE the chance to play them in the title game ... that would mean Duke would have made one of the great NCAA runs in history ... and I'm absolutely confident that we would beat them in Houston.


I was writing this as the above was posted

This was also touched on in The Best Conference Thread.

It is a premature discussion, but, isn’t that what happens on DBR, for discussion sake?

I have similar thought’s about a potential downside of that matchup, always but come back to this.

If “IF” this were to come about, there are some parallels to UNLV1990, and unc 2016.

The questions about UNLV were endless about Student Athlete Eligibility and the fans no
less insufferable than unc fans, well maybe a tad less insufferable.

We Survived 1990 in fine fashion, thanks to 1991 & 1992.

Again, “IF”, this were to come about, I trust in K, navigating the game.

There is always a potential of getting our butts handed to us, but I would rather
take the shot, than sit on the sidelines and watch.

History can’t be created without being in the game, we’ve got the history to prove it.

Now what if, ”IF” that elusive repeat were to take place, yet again, considering next year and beyond
sets the stage for something not done in the 64 team format.

History isn’t written by the non combatants.

I would guess, if the coaching staff and team were asked as to their preferences,
it would have a resounding response. Just a guess.

Who better to take that shot and continue writing history?

if this belongs in the Optimist thread, then by all means, move it,:cool:

[Olympic Fan]

You may be right about ALL of these things, although I doubt it. I'm a Duke fan who works for UNC, so maybe you don't REALLY understand. :p

I live in Durham, surrounded by Wal-Mart UNC fans (the worst kind). I have two brothers who graduated from UNC. I was in the checkout line at my local grocery store Wednesday, listening to the checkout girl talk about how he hopes somebody takes a tire iron and attacks "that terrible Grayson Allen."

So, yes, I do understand.

What I don't understand is a so-called Duke fan so weak-willed and defenseless that he'd rather Duke lose before the Final Four to avoid the possibility of losing to UNC in the title game and facing taunts from UNC fans.

Personally, I can defend myself from an obnoxious UNC fan -- usually by asking quite innocently, do they think Dean Smith organized the UNC cheating scandal himself or was merely an innocent dupe when it was first organized under his watch?

Buck up ... if the worst happens and UNC wins the title (whether they beat Duke in the title game or not), I suggest that you smile graciously at any UNC fan who taunts you and say in a friendly manner, "Congratulations, I really think you'll be able to keep this title and it won't be vacated like 2005 and 2009 are going to be."

[NashvilleDevil]

I live in Durham, surrounded by Wal-Mart UNC fans (the worst kind). I have two brothers who graduated from UNC. I was in the checkout line at my local grocery store Wednesday, listening to the checkout girl talk about how he hopes somebody takes a tire iron and attacks "that terrible Grayson Allen."

So, yes, I do understand.

What I don't understand is a so-called Duke fan so weak-willed and defenseless that he'd rather Duke lose before the Final Four to avoid the possibility of losing to UNC in the title game and facing taunts from UNC fans.

Personally, I can defend myself from an obnoxious UNC fan -- usually by asking quite innocently, do they think Dean Smith organized the UNC cheating scandal himself or was merely an innocent dupe when it was first organized under his watch?

Buck up ... if the worst happens and UNC wins the title (whether they beat Duke in the title game or not), I suggest that you smile graciously at any UNC fan who taunts you and say in a friendly manner, "Congratulations, I really think you'll be able to keep this title and it won't be vacated like 2005 and 2009 are going to be."

UNC fans think they want a matchup with Duke in the title game but do they realize who their coach is? Roy would over coach to the point of comedy. Not going to Brice, having them chuck 3s, hording timeouts. My goodness it would be great because UNC fans would have to deal with 5 things after a Duke win. 1) Duke wins the title. 2) Duke wins the title beating UNC 3) Roy is not match for K 4) 15-16 represented their best shot at a title before the hammer is dropped. 5) Duke would have a strong chance of 3 in a row.

So I say bring them on if it comes to that. What was it Han Solo said? I prefer that to the sneaking around. Rip 'em up, tear 'em up, give 'em hell Duke!

[slower]

What I don't understand is a so-called Duke fan so weak-willed and defenseless

Nah, just tired of the BS. But you seem to have enough self-confidence and bravado for all of us.

Although, you're right. They're going to be obnoxious a-holes whatever happens. So I guess I agree with you now.

[uh_no]

What I don't understand is a so-called Duke fan so weak-willed and defenseless that he'd rather Duke lose before the Final Four to avoid the possibility of losing to UNC in the title game and facing taunts from UNC fans.

Well I'm sorry we're not as strong as you are. Let's look at this objectively without all the game calling.

So if I knew 100% that duke was going to lose in the title game when they played UNC, I would not want them to reach that game. There would be no point...100% is a guaranteed outcome.

What if it was .0000001%? I'd probably still wish duke to not even make it...what's the point?

At some point between 100% loss and 100% win, though, it will make sense for duke to win that semifinal game and play in the final.....at what point that is depends on on how much you value certain outcomes.

A: UNC wins over some not duke team: -1....meh....yeah sucks they get another one...but they would have eventually
B: UNC loses to some non duke team in the final: 2. This is probably the next best thing to duke winning a title
C: Duke wins over UNC in the finals: 5....literally the best thing ever (i'd probably give a natty a 3)
D: UNC wins over duke in the finals: -4....really really bad.

And this has nothing to do with other fans, other people, whatever. I can stand up for myself anyway. I come here and root for connecticut for heaven's sake....it's my inherent happiness level from any of these things occurring.

Therefore my expected happiness if duke wins in the semifinal is 5*x -4*(1-x)....or 11x-4 (where x is duke's probability of victory over UNC). This becomes positive when x=.36 or so.

My expected happiness if duke loses in the semis is 2y-(1-y) or 3y-1....(y is semifinal opponents probability of win over UNC). This becomes positive when x=.33

so we have to compare my expected happiness in the two cases
11x-4=3y-1
11x-3=3y
x=(3y+3)/11

So my expected happiness will be higher with duke winning the semifinals when duke's probability of winning is greater than the right hand side of that equation.

Here's a nifty chart


other semifinalists win probability over UNC
Duke's required for me to be happier if they'd win the semifinal


0
.27


.1
.3


.2
.33


.3
.35


.4
.38


.5
.41


.6
.44


.7
.46


.8
.49


.9
.52


1
.55



So for my assignment of ABCDxy (you'd expect it to be different for each person), you can figure out which outcome (duke winning or losing in the seminfinal) gives you more of an expected happiness. If you find that the math disagrees with your intuition, then YOUR values are inconsistent.

And I find by looking at this, if duke had a .55 chance of beating anyone in the finals, I'd want them to win....even if the other team had a 100% chance of beating UNC. This says to me that when I assigned values at the beginning, I put too little weight on duke winning a natty over UNC, and too much weight on UNC losing to someone else....and perhaps I should go back and reevaluate until I come up with a consistent set of values.

In any case, the point is there is some set of ABCDxy that would cause me to be happier should duke lose in the semifinal, even if I can't pinpoint that right now. Of course I'm not going to NOT cheer for duke in ANY game (connecticut aside...)....but at least I can reason objectively about how I would feel should they lose. It's sort of akin to picking against duke in a bracket challenge....of course I will root for duke...but that doesn't necessarily mean that duke winning is the best outcome for me.

[Henderson]

Well I'm sorry we're not as strong as you are. Let's look at this objectively without all the game calling.

So if I knew 100% that duke was going to lose in the title game when they played UNC, I would not want them to reach that game. There would be no point...100% is a guaranteed outcome.

What if it was .0000001%? I'd probably still wish duke to not even make it...what's the point?

At some point between 100% loss and 100% win, though, it will make sense for duke to win that semifinal game and play in the final....at what point that is depends on on how much you value certain outcomes.

A: UNC wins over some not duke team: -1...meh...yeah sucks they get another one...but they would have eventually
B: UNC loses to some non duke team in the final: 2. This is probably the next best thing to duke winning a title
C: Duke wins over UNC in the finals: 5...literally the best thing ever (i'd probably give a natty a 3)
D: UNC wins over duke in the finals: -4...really really bad.

And this has nothing to do with other fans, other people, whatever. I can stand up for myself anyway. I come here and root for connecticut for heaven's sake...it's my inherent happiness level from any of these things occurring.

Therefore my expected happiness if duke wins in the semifinal is 5*x -4*(1-x)...or 11x-4 (where x is duke's probability of victory over UNC). This becomes positive when x=.36 or so.

My expected happiness if duke loses in the semis is 2y-(1-y) or 3y-1...(y is semifinal opponents probability of win over UNC). This becomes positive when x=.33

so we have to compare my expected happiness in the two cases
11x-4=3y-1
11x-3=3y
x=(3y+3)/11

So my expected happiness will be higher with duke winning the semifinals when duke's probability of winning is greater than the right hand side of that equation.

Here's a nifty chart


other semifinalists win probability over UNC
Duke's required for me to be happier if they'd win the semifinal


0
.27


.1
.3


.2
.33


.3
.35


.4
.38


.5
.41


.6
.44


.7
.46


.8
.49


.9
.52


1
.55



So for my assignment of ABCDxy (you'd expect it to be different for each person), you can figure out which outcome (duke winning or losing in the seminfinal) gives you more of an expected happiness. If you find that the math disagrees with your intuition, then YOUR values are inconsistent.

And I find by looking at this, if duke had a .55 chance of beating anyone in the finals, I'd want them to win...even if the other team had a 100% chance of beating UNC. This says to me that when I assigned values at the beginning, I put too little weight on duke winning a natty over UNC, and too much weight on UNC losing to someone else...and perhaps I should go back and reevaluate until I come up with a consistent set of values.

In any case, the point is there is some set of ABCDxy that would cause me to be happier should duke lose in the semifinal, even if I can't pinpoint that right now. Of course I'm not going to NOT cheer for duke in ANY game (connecticut aside...)...but at least I can reason objectively about how I would feel should they lose. It's sort of akin to picking against duke in a bracket challenge...of course I will root for duke...but that doesn't necessarily mean that duke winning is the best outcome for me.

Slow day at work, eh?

[rsvman]

Wow, uh no. You really have too much time on your hands.

[BLPOG]

Wow, uh no. You really have too much time on your hands.

I doubt it took him all that long to put that together. The point is, there are valid reasons for feeling one way or another about this topic and they have to do with subjective evaluations of different outcomes as well as the win/loss probabilities.

While I think people might be getting a little ahead of themselves with the speculation here, it's still a valid topic that comes up from time to time, and we're closer now at most alternative periods of the year.

I have always disliked the idea of a Duke v. UNC championship because it seems too final for such high stakes. Were it to occur, though, and even if I thought our chances were slim to none, I would make every effort to atten them game. Win or lose, I would want to be there.

[wilko]

I'm game for this happening at some point.... I'd much prefer it happen when we have a functioning, in-tact frontcourt.

The only way I'd be in favor of it this year ... is if on the eve of the title game the NCAA handed down their punishment/sanctions from 20yrs of bad behavior by the Holes and essentially DQ'ed them; giving us the win as they have to forfeit... as part of their ongoing punishments...

Hey, you have your dreams I have mine....

[Indoor66]

No elephant - we show up and they don't! :cool:

[CameronBlue]

I could be wrong, but I am unaware of any elephant-UNC breeding programs.

I think the animal husbandry program resides at NC State and they take it pretty seriously. When I think of UNC "student athletes" the term "inbreeding" comes to mind.

[kAzE]

I don't really get the apprehension over this. 1 game winner takes all, and we have Krzyzewski? I ain't scurred. Bring it.

[BandAlum83]

UNC fans think they want a matchup with Duke in the title game but do they realize who their coach is? Roy would over coach to the point of comedy. Not going to Brice, having them chuck 3s, hording timeouts. My goodness it would be great because UNC fans would have to deal with 5 things after a Duke win. 1) Duke wins the title. 2) Duke wins the title beating UNC 3) Roy is not match for K 4) 15-16 represented their best shot at a title before the hammer is dropped. 5) Duke would have a strong chance of 3 in a row.

So I say bring them on if it comes to that. What was it Han Solo said? I prefer that to the sneaking around. Rip 'em up, tear 'em up, give 'em hell Duke!

I'm with you, but I still say my head could explode or the pre-game stress would overwhelm me!

[BandAlum83]

In any case, the point is there is some set of ABCDxy that would cause me to be happier should duke lose in the semifinal, even if I can't pinpoint that right now. Of course I'm not going to NOT cheer for duke in ANY game (connecticut aside...)...but at least I can reason objectively about how I would feel should they lose. It's sort of akin to picking against duke in a bracket challenge...of course I will root for duke...but that doesn't necessarily mean that duke winning is the best outcome for me.

Whoa......way too much time/effort for me analyzing a hypothetical. LOL

[uh_no]

Slow day at work, eh?

it took me all of like 5 minutes while code was compiling. time well spent IMO.

[madscavenger]

Why would any Duke fan even consider not taking this on. K would ream you out! The proper (and only permissible) attitude is:

We beat them at their place. Our young guns were complacent at ours, and we fell just short. That will not happen again on April 4th. This eventuality is because they will be hell-bent on beating us, while we will be hell-bent on winning a championship. K will see to that. Stop whining. Case closed.

[BandAlum83]

What would the national response be to a final such as this?

Would it engender passion? The biggest ratings ever for a Final?

Or would the rest of the country, those with no real dog in the hunt be like "Who cares? I hope they both lose!"

You know: just another blue blood final with no compelling story to tell outside the rivalry which may mean the world to us, but to no one else.

[MarkD83]

The other factor to consider is if Duke is in the final game they would have just beaten 3 of the top teams in the nation. That would give us all a more optimistic view of their chances for success (OK some of us are already very optimistic, so most of us would be more optimistic.)

[DukieInKansas]

No elephant - we show up and they don't! :cool:

The title just said room. It didn't specify classroom. :D

[throatybeard]

What would the national response be to a final such as this?

Would it engender passion? The biggest ratings ever for a Final?

Or would the rest of the country, those with no real dog in the hunt be like "Who cares? I hope they both lose!"

You know: just another blue blood final with no compelling story to tell outside the rivalry which may mean the world to us, but to no one else.

I imagine a Duke-Carolina final would manage between a third and half the media hype of any two schools likely to be in the championship of the 4-team football playoff. Even ESPN was full blast onto baseball last year less than 12 hours after we dispatched Wisconsin. And they think the number one event is sports isn't even sports, it's the boring old NFL draft.

[BD80]

...

So I say bring them on if it comes to that. What was it Han Solo said? I prefer that to the sneaking around. ...

Didn't he say that shortly before jumping into a garbage chute to avoid a direct conflict?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't really get the apprehension over this. 1 game winner takes all, and we have Krzyzewski? I ain't scurred. Bring it.

You and I agree on this. I'd be pretty optimistic in this scenario.

[cato]

DBR posters chastising other DBR posters for time management skills. That's like Carolina fans calling Duke fans arrogant.

[royalblue]

I live in Durham, surrounded by Wal-Mart UNC fans (the worst kind). I have two brothers who graduated from UNC. I was in the checkout line at my local grocery store Wednesday, listening to the checkout girl talk about how he hopes somebody takes a tire iron and attacks "that terrible Grayson Allen."

So, yes, I do understand.

What I don't understand is a so-called Duke fan so weak-willed and defenseless that he'd rather Duke lose before the Final Four to avoid the possibility of losing to UNC in the title game and facing taunts from UNC fans.

Personally, I can defend myself from an obnoxious UNC fan -- usually by asking quite innocently, do they think Dean Smith organized the UNC cheating scandal himself or was merely an innocent dupe when it was first organized under his watch?

Buck up ... if the worst happens and UNC wins the title (whether they beat Duke in the title game or not), I suggest that you smile graciously at any UNC fan who taunts you and say in a friendly manner, "Congratulations, I really think you'll be able to keep this title and it won't be vacated like 2005 and 2009 are going to be."

Nice post
I was guilty during the ACC tourney this month of not wanting to lose to them ( I could not go but have been at the tourney the last 5 times Duke played uncch and Duke has won the last 5)but this would be a unique year to play the cheats

Duke won 2015
uncch would be a big favorite
Duke is a very tough pesky team
It would be for back to back titles
It would be for 3 titles since they cheated to win 1
The pressure really would be on them (seasoned team vs young guns)
The seed line to do this would likely be 1 2 1 1
So yea beating 3 1's and a 2 May be needed
To win it all
I think 3 1's has been done once AZ 1997
K would be triple Dean and triple Roy
It would be my new best day ever
Moving the date below to #2
March 30th 1991 Dean ejected UNLV
Dejected ( the day the future changed)
Oh yea and Duke may be decent next year :)
Bring it on!!!!!

[Wander]

Obviously, in a hypothetical where you knew for sure we would lose to UNC, it would be much better to lose in the semi-finals than make the title game and lose to UNC, which is basically the worst tournament scenario imaginable outside of being the first 1 to lose to a 16.

Back in reality where it's not a guaranteed loss or win (and would probably be something like a 40% chance of a win this year), the attitude of hoping your team loses is silly, and the reward of title #6 is way too great to pass up.

[Hingeknocker]

Nice post
I was guilty during the ACC tourney this month of not wanting to lose to them ( I could not go but have been at the tourney the last 5 times Duke played uncch and Duke has won the last 5)but this would be a unique year to play the cheats

Duke won 2015
uncch would be a big favorite
Duke is a very tough pesky team
It would be for back to back titles
It would be for 4 titles since they cheated to win 3
The pressure really would be on them (seasoned team vs young guns)
The seed line to do this would likely be 1 2 1 1
So yea beating 3 1's and a 2 May be needed
To win it all
I think 3 1's has been done once AZ 1997
K would be triple Dean and triple Roy
It would be my new best day ever
Moving the date below to #2
March 30th 1991 Dean ejected UNLV
Dejected ( the day the future changed)
Oh yea and Duke may be decent next year :)
Bring it on!!!!!

Agree that out of any year, this is the year I would want to play them. Would much rather be the underdog than the favorite in the nightmare scenario.

I did edit the bold just for historical accuracy.

[killerleft]

Agree that out of any year, this is the year I would want to play them. Would much rather be the underdog than the favorite in the nightmare scenario.

I did edit the bold just for historical accuracy.

So you're counting the bake-off title?:) I just giggle every time I see that stupid banner.

[Merlindevildog91]

No. A thousand times, no.

I have to deal with these freaking lunatics, and will never hear the end of it either way. If we win, we get all the calls, the NCAA should have kicked Grayson Allen out of competition months ago, everyone hates us because we are all a bunch of WASPs, we are all from NJ (apologies to those from and/or in NJ), etc., etc., etc.

If, God forbid, the other happens, it would be even worse and does not bear describing. The mere thought of same gives me chills.

[Doria]

If we advance, miraculously, to the title game, I'll take any opponent! I really don't understand hoping that we lose earlier. I also don't, in any way, take for granted that they will beat Indiana or UVA, if it comes to that.

In fairness, neither do I assume we'll beat a solid Oregon team, either of the regional semifinalists on the other side, or most likely Kansas! If that happened, that would be incredible, and I'd love every minute of it, even if it does end with a rubber match with Carolina (by the way, Virginia again would be a ridiculously hard fight, too)!

Edit: I take the point above about interest and ESPN, but I believe that pre-tournaments, the top rated MCBB game was Duke-UNC, so I imagine hype--whatever its origin, in this case probably CBS--would be fairly intense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I imagine a Duke-Carolina final would manage between a third and half the media hype of any two schools likely to be in the championship of the 4-team football playoff. Even ESPN was full blast onto baseball last year less than 12 hours after we dispatched Wisconsin. And they think the number one event is sports isn't even sports, it's the boring old NFL draft.

You have to remember - Duke/UNC tilts are always the most watched regular season games of any reason regardless of respective rankings. I would think that we would get some good numbers just from the curiosity factor if nothing else. Casual fans would definitely tune in. You know that ever UCONN, MSU, NCSU, UVa, etc etc etc etc fan would watch, not to mention fans who just like to see good basketball.

Might be the only way to have a sizable fan base in our favor, as we would be an underdog?

[sagegrouse]

This thread is, collectively, somewhat embarrassing. Posters here would actually NOT want Duke to face UNC in the finals? You gotta be kidding! What are we afraid of? We played twice and won once. We probably won't win the battle of the boards but will probably shoot a lot better than UNC and stand a reasonable chance of winning the game.

Let's play tomorrow!

[Doria]

Darn, didn't get edit off before the clock expired!

[gurufrisbee]

I think it's pretty understandable. Losing to the cheaters is always very painful. Losing in the tournament is always very painful. Seeing the cheaters win a title is pretty revolting. And with the most confidence and optimism in our team, a reasonable assessment would have to be that this year we're not as deep or favored in any match up with the cheaters. So when you combine all that together, the concept of facing the cheaters in the national title game means that we would be heavy underdogs to them and the expected outcome would be the worst possible combination of all these things. That doesn't mean you don't root for your team or think they could win or get super excited if they did, it's just being honest with the teams and this season and what that expected outcome would mean. Of course the flip side is basically the best of all those things and that cannot happen without this being set up that way either. Still, I would rather have the cheaters lose now. They can watch us win national titles on the TV.

[Merlindevildog91]

If the option is Duke loses prior to the national final, or Duke plays the infernal sheep in the final, I will take the latter.

But it is my profound hope that the sheep lose before then.

[Dukehky]

This thread is, collectively, somewhat embarrassing. Posters here would actually NOT want Duke to face UNC in the finals? You gotta be kidding! What are we afraid of? We played twice and won once. We probably won't win the battle of the boards but will probably shoot a lot better than UNC and stand a reasonable chance of winning the game.

Let's play tomorrow!

Bro, you live in Colorado. While you may appreciate the trepidation that we North Carolina Devils feel, you don't possibly know. I was raised in western North Carolina as a Duke fan. I got bullied, picked on, excluded by classmates for years (not all the time, I had a great childhood) when it was Duke Carolina time. I hate them more than most people could ever even possibly imagine, and the chance that they could have that kind of goodness in their lives, beating Duke in a title, is not worth the risk to me. Plus, if I win, then I am telling 200 people about it, then they are telling 1 that it's just another game, it's not that big of a deal, if we lose, then 200 people are rubbing it in my face for all of eternity. Not worth it. If we played, I'd watch and I'd cheer my heart out, but I do not want to see it. Obviously I'd rather UNC just lose to Indiana and have it done with. But do not call what I have gone through each and every day of my life regarding this rivalry, and my response to the potential for the worst of those days moving forward embarrassing.

All that being said, it's just sports, but sports is important to me, and I'd rather not have something I enjoy devastate me so much like losing to UNC in a title game would. Again, the reward of winning is far outweighed by the risk of losing to myself.

[devil84]

I'm pining for the days when we respected the Weauxf Gods (http://kevinrothermel.com/blog/the-weauxf-gods/) (aka Oliver's Woofing Theorem (http://wilson.engr.wisc.edu/rsfc/Woof.html)). Talking about the Finals when we've somehow miraculously made it to the Sweet 16 and are facing a #1 seed in about 36 hours...it just doesn't seem right to me. I don't even want to entertain the mental gymnastics needed to contemplate such a game when Duke (and UNC) has to win 3 consecutive games before this can happen.

I have (mostly) enjoyed reading this thread and many good points are raised (uh_no...I love your algorithm). But it feels a little close to weauxfing for me given the assumptions that have to be made for both teams. Apparently I'm in the minority, though. I just thought that perhaps a little reminder about the Weauxf Gods was in order.

Carry on.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Darn, didn't get edit off before the clock expired!

Let's let the refs go to the monitor and delay the game for another 20 minutes.

[killerleft]

Let the chips fall where they may. I'll be so happy if this bunch can get to the Championship game. Don't care who they play. Period.

Coach K and the players won't be shaking in their boots. They'll know they can win a Natty, and should be ready to tussle with Cheaters or anybody else. That elephant looks very good to me. Bring it on! And, as always...

Go Duke!!*

* not just Go Duke unless we might have to play the so-called mighty unethical tar heels. Come to think of it they ARE mighty unethical! I fart in their general direction.

[Doria]

Hmm, I just thought everyone else was like me, and was filling the time desperately until our game! But you're (@Devil84) probably right, and I just got a new project due at the end of the month which isn't going to do itself, sigh.

[Kfanarmy]

This thread is, collectively, somewhat embarrassing. Posters here would actually NOT want Duke to face UNC in the finals? You gotta be kidding! What are we afraid of? We played twice and won once. We probably won't win the battle of the boards but will probably shoot a lot better than UNC and stand a reasonable chance of winning the game.

Let's play tomorrow!

Amen! Its the ultimate in weak sauce to hope you lose before the final because you might lose in the final...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm pining for the days when we respected the Weauxf Gods (http://kevinrothermel.com/blog/the-weauxf-gods/) (aka Oliver's Woofing Theorem (http://wilson.engr.wisc.edu/rsfc/Woof.html)). Talking about the Finals when we've somehow miraculously made it to the Sweet 16 and are facing a #1 seed in about 36 hours...it just doesn't seem right to me. I don't even want to entertain the mental gymnastics needed to contemplate such a game when Duke (and UNC) has to win 3 consecutive games before this can happen.

I have (mostly) enjoyed reading this thread and many good points are raised (uh_no...I love your algorithm). But it feels a little close to weauxfing for me given the assumptions that have to be made for both teams. Apparently I'm in the minority, though. I just thought that perhaps a little reminder about the Weauxf Gods was in order.

Carry on.

Wouldn't you consider a Duke/UNC final a less likely outcome of this season than the return of Brandon Ingram? I agree, this thread is really the height of.... needless finger-wringing.

[robed deity]

Wouldn't you consider a Duke/UNC final a less likely outcome of this season than the return of Brandon Ingram? I agree, this thread is really the height of... needless finger-wringing.

Yes, it's sort of unlikely even one of Duke and UNC make it (though the heels do have an easier road) and very unlikely they both do.

But it still is something I think about. It has to happen one of these years, right? I'd actually be interested in figuring out the odds of it happening in the tournament during the whole K era. Given both team's success over the last 30 years or so, i would think there'd be a greater chance of it happening than not. That's probably a very difficult thing to figure out. It does seem the gods know it would be dangerous.

Obviously, it came very close to happening in 91, but not that close since.

[Hingeknocker]

So you're counting the bake-off title?:) I just giggle every time I see that stupid banner.

I may have misunderstood the point you were making; I trying to point out that they cheated to win in 1993, 2005, and 2009.

We certainly agree that no one in their right mind would count the bake-off titles.

[sagegrouse]

I may have misunderstood the point you were making; I trying to point out that they cheated to win in 1993, 2005, and 2009.

We certainly agree that no one in their right mind would count the bake-off titles.

Which would include Kansas, which has banners for two Helms Foundation titles. Per Wikipedia:


On the north wall hangs banners for KU's five national championships: their two championships awarded by the Helms Foundation for KU's 1922 and 1923 seasons, as well as their three NCAA tournament titles in 1952, 1988, and 2008.

[BLPOG]

But it feels a little close to weauxfing for me given the assumptions that have to be made for both teams. Apparently I'm in the minority, though. I just thought that perhaps a little reminder about the Weauxf Gods was in order.

I agree. I think the reason it comes off that way is that the topic is one that causes fierce emotions, so the underlying fact that the premise is hypothetical gets underemphasized in the face of the strong feelings about the scenario.

But it's still a bit too close for comfort. I won't be revisiting this thread before Sunday.

[Henderson]

This thread is, collectively, somewhat embarrassing. Posters here would actually NOT want Duke to face UNC in the finals? You gotta be kidding! What are we afraid of?

Any Duke fan has to want Duke to play for the national championship. Any sport, any year, any opponent, any continent, any season, any zodiac arrangement, any biorhythm chart, any time of day or night. End of Story.

Only way to do that: Beat Oregon.

Go Duke!

[COYS]

This thread is, collectively, somewhat embarrassing. Posters here would actually NOT want Duke to face UNC in the finals? You gotta be kidding! What are we afraid of? We played twice and won once. We probably won't win the battle of the boards but will probably shoot a lot better than UNC and stand a reasonable chance of winning the game.

Let's play tomorrow!

Absolutely! Also, while I understand that the fear of losing to UNC is real, I feel that if the game were to actually happen, the excitement for the event would overcome the fear, quickly. I mean, Duke would have nothing to lose against UNC this year. UNC would be favored and expected to win. They win, fine. Good for them. They can enjoy it while enduring their impending sanctions. Meanwhile, we come back next season as one of the favorites to win the title, again. But if we win, oh man. We go back to back, deny UNC what might be their last chance for a title with Ol' Roy, and conclude what will be one of the most impressive Duke Tourney runs in history with the first ring for K's other hand. And THEN we get to watch UNC suffer under sanctions (their just desserts, of course). So yeah, losing to UNC would hurt. Losing to UNC in the title game would hurt even more. But, if rooting for Duke to be playing for a National Title means playing UNC for the title, bring it on! We've got nothing to lose.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Absolutely! Also, while I understand that the fear of losing to UNC is real, I feel that if the game were to actually happen, the excitement for the event would overcome the fear, quickly. I mean, Duke would have nothing to lose against UNC this year. UNC would be favored and expected to win. They win, fine. Good for them. They can enjoy it while enduring their impending sanctions. Meanwhile, we come back next season as one of the favorites to win the title, again. But if we win, oh man. We go back to back, deny UNC what might be their last chance for a title with Ol' Roy, and conclude what will be one of the most impressive Duke Tourney runs in history with the first ring for K's other hand. And THEN we get to watch UNC suffer under sanctions (their just desserts, of course). So yeah, losing to UNC would hurt. Losing to UNC in the title game would hurt even more. But, if rooting for Duke to be playing for a National Title means playing UNC for the title, bring it on! We've got nothing to lose.

I agree with the overall premise of your post with the exception of the bolded part. There is plenty to lose, and we wouldn't hear the end of it for God knows how long. We still talk about the 2010 demolition of UNC (82-50), but the truth is that UNC was ranked 61st during that season, according to KenPom (we were first).

I don't want to face UNC this year, but if it came to us facing them in the natty title, bring it. I'd happily take the probability for the decade-long insults to get us back to the finals.

[Dukehky]

Look at the location of those saying bring it on. You are great Duke fans, no less Duke fans/supporters/alumni than any of the rest of us; but living in North Carolina adds a whole other dimension that visiting, living for 4 years while in the Duke bubble at school, just doesn't reveal.

I don't think we will ever play UNC in the title. The committee puts us on opposite sides almost every year. There is a very slim chance that we make it to the final this year, not a great chance that UNC does because they are soft and can absolutely lose to anyone left in the field, and an even smaller chance that both of us make the finals.

I don't foresee it ever happening, but again, I don't want it to. This is a not a hypothetical that I dream about occurring.

[BandAlum83]

Look at the location of those saying bring it on. You are great Duke fans, no less Duke fans/supporters/alumni than any of the rest of us; but living in North Carolina adds a whole other dimension that visiting, living for 4 years while in the Duke bubble at school, just doesn't reveal.

I don't think we will ever play UNC in the title. There is a very slim chance that we make it to the final this year, not a great chance that UNC does because they are soft and can absolutely lose to anyone left in the field, and an even smaller chance that both of us make the finals.

I don't foresee it ever happening, but again, I don't want it to. This is a not a hypothetical that I dream about occurring.

Isn't it interesting that the committee publicly states all kinds of reasons and standards for placing teams from the same conference as they do. For example, no 2 teams of seed 4 or greater in the same region.

I've never heard of a Duke/UNC rule, however. I do suppose that we are almost always top 4 seeds, but there were definitely times we weren't, yet still...

Maybe there is a rivalry override rule. Can anyone recall any public recognition of this?

[Henderson]

I don't foresee it ever happening, but again, I don't want it to. This is a not a hypothetical that I dream about occurring.

Yeah, but that's premised on UNC-CH losing before the title game. If they make it to the finals, I think Duke fans would want Duke to be their opponent. To think otherwise would be to hope that Duke loses earlier if UNC-CH got to the finals.

Folks, we definitely DO want to play for the national championship. Against anyone. We don't even control that side of the bracket.

[BandAlum83]

After the complete smackdown we received in 1990 from UNLV, I was so focused on the semi-final rematch with an overwhelming UNLV team, that to this day, I had totally forgotten UNC was also at that final four. At the time, I paid little attention to that aspect.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

After the complete smackdown we received in 1990 from UNLV, I was so focused on the semi-final rematch with an overwhelming UNLV team, that to this day, I had totally forgotten UNC was also at that final four. At the time, I paid little attention to that aspect.

It definitely ended up as the undercard, but if I recall, Dean Smith got ejected in the late moments of a rather tight game. Not the most celebrated moment of his career?

[OldPhiKap]

It definitely ended up as the undercard, but if I recall, Dean Smith got ejected in the late moments of a rather tight game. Not the most celebrated moment of his career?

Yup.

[cato]

It definitely ended up as the undercard, but if I recall, Dean Smith got ejected in the late moments of a rather tight game. Not the most celebrated moment of his career?

Well . . . that depends on who is doing the celebrating, doesn't it?

[aimo]

It definitely ended up as the undercard, but if I recall, Dean Smith got ejected in the late moments of a rather tight game. Not the most celebrated moment of his career?

Weird, b/c I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[killerleft]

I may have misunderstood the point you were making; I trying to point out that they cheated to win in 1993, 2005, and 2009.

We certainly agree that no one in their right mind would count the bake-off titles.

No, I misunderstood the original point, and so I got yours wrong, too. I thought the four and three was about their titles, not a comparison of how many we've had since they got an honest one.:o Sorry.:)

[DtrainBuckshot]

I thought this post was about Kennedy Meeks

[Stray Gator]

It definitely ended up as the undercard, but if I recall, Dean Smith got ejected in the late moments of a rather tight game. Not the most celebrated moment of his career?

For those of us who were fortunate enough to be there, that was only the first memorable event of that evening, of course. But it led to two ensuing unusual scenes. After Pete Pavia hit Dean with the second technical and ejected him, Dean walked over to the Kansas bench and slowly made his way down the line, shaking hands with the Kansas coaches (including Roy) and players on his way to the locker room. Later, in the tunnel following the end of the game, then-assistant UNC coach Bill Guthridge angrily went after Pavia and had to be restrained by security personnel. For the record, though, the game seemed to be well in hand for Kansas when Dean was ejected -- there were only 35 seconds left, with Kansas leading by 5 and going to the free throw line.

[killerleft]

Look at the location of those saying bring it on. You are great Duke fans, no less Duke fans/supporters/alumni than any of the rest of us; but living in North Carolina adds a whole other dimension that visiting, living for 4 years while in the Duke bubble at school, just doesn't reveal.

I don't think we will ever play UNC in the title. The committee puts us on opposite sides almost every year. There is a very slim chance that we make it to the final this year, not a great chance that UNC does because they are soft and can absolutely lose to anyone left in the field, and an even smaller chance that both of us make the finals.

I don't foresee it ever happening, but again, I don't want it to. This is a not a hypothetical that I dream about occurring.

I'm in N.C. If given the chance to play for a Natty, I'm ready for the Cheaters or anybody else the NCAA can throw our way!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For those of us who were fortunate enough to be there, that was only the first memorable event of that evening, of course. But it led to two ensuing unusual scenes. After Pete Pavia hit Dean with the second technical and ejected him, Dean walked over to the Kansas bench and slowly made his way down the line, shaking hands with the Kansas coaches (including Roy) and players on his way to the locker room. Later, in the tunnel following the end of the game, then-assistant UNC coach Bill Guthridge angrily went after Pavia and had to be restrained by security personnel. For the record, though, the game seemed to be well in hand for Kansas when Dean was ejected -- there were only 35 seconds left, with Kansas leading by 5 and going to the free throw line.

Northern Iowa says hello. :)

Anyway, my bigger point is that this thread is absurd. It isn't a 2,000 lb elephant in the room. It's not even a plastic toy elephant in the hallway. If we have occasion to revisit this same question on Sunday evening, I will be thankful. Before then, we might as well be wondering how many second generation Plumlees will be on our roster in... 2032?

[sagegrouse]

I agree with the overall premise of your post with the exception of the bolded part. There is plenty to lose, and we wouldn't hear the end of it for God knows how long. We still talk about the 2010 demolition of UNC (82-50), but the truth is that UNC was ranked 61st during that season, according to KenPom (we were first).

I don't want to face UNC this year, but if it came to us facing them in the natty title, bring it. I'd happily take the probability for the decade-long insults to get us back to the finals.

UNC's hypothetical crowing will have ended the moment the hammer drops.

[BandAlum83]

For those of us who were fortunate enough to be there, that was only the first memorable event of that evening, of course. But it led to two ensuing unusual scenes. After Pete Pavia hit Dean with the second technical and ejected him, Dean walked over to the Kansas bench and slowly made his way down the line, shaking hands with the Kansas coaches (including Roy) and players on his way to the locker room. Later, in the tunnel following the end of the game, then-assistant UNC coach Bill Guthridge angrily went after Pavia and had to be restrained by security personnel. For the record, though, the game seemed to be well in hand for Kansas when Dean was ejected -- there were only 35 seconds left, with Kansas leading by 5 and going to the free throw line.

I'm remembering now that I had a just-under 2 yr old. I'm pretty sure I didn't even watch the first game. I watched the Duke game alone, it was too late for my wife to stay up. 2yr olds can be exhausting. :)

I yelled and screamed in my basement when we won. My wife made an attempt to stay up for the final, but didn't quite make it. She fell asleep on the sofa. Don't get me wrong, she's a Maryland grad, but a Duke fan.

[throatybeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHzdhN3W3w

[Rich]

The only animal in my room at the moment is a duck.

[devildeac]

The only animal in my room at the moment is a duck.

1. Is it made of wood?

2. Will you burn it?

[BandAlum83]

That was Carolina's path to the final four in 1991.

I just looked it up. Let me say it again:

16, 9, 12, 10

The actually played a higher seed in the round 32 than the did in both the sweet 16 and elite 8.


Our path 15, 7, 11, 4

They lost to a 3 in the final four. We beat a 1 and a 3


I guess I was oblivious with a toddler at home.

[BandAlum83]

The only animal in my room at the moment is a duck.

Does it float?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That was Carolina's path to the final four in 1991.

I just looked it up. Let me say it again:

19, 9, 12, 10

The actually played a higher seed in the round 32 than the did in both the sweet 16 and elite 8.


Our path 15, 7, 11, 4

They lost to a 3 in the final four. We beat a 1 and a 3


I guess I was oblivious with a toddler at home.

I KNEW they were cheating under Dean!

[DukeDevil]

we might as well be wondering how many second generation Plumlees will be on our roster in... 2032?

Wait...you have some insight into this???? My guess is 2 more in that generation. I'm thinking they should name a son Duke. I'd love to cheer for Duke playing in Cameron. Hell, I already do! I am concerned as Marshall's girlfriend seemed to be pretty short. Not sure how to handle a 6'5 future plumlee.

[Kedsy]

I just wanted to point out that elephants weigh between 6,500 and 15,500 pounds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant). So a "2000 lb elephant in the room" would be a really small elephant.

Which is how I feel about this question. I personally doubt UNC will get to the NCAA final game. Our chances aren't so great, either, though of course there's a chance. If it happens, then it happens.

In 1991, I had this idea if Duke was able to beat UNLV, we would have expended so much energy that the players would be emotionally drained and unable to get up for mere Kansas, but if we were playing UNC of course the team would bring the energy. So I decided that logically I should root for UNC against Kansas. It lasted about three seconds, or however long the tipoff took. Immediately after the tip, I turned to my friend and said "can't do it." And that was that.

[rsvman]

1. Is it made of wood?

2. Will you burn it?

What else floats, apart from wood?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What else floats, apart from wood?

Ducks! Witches!

[devildeac]

What else floats, apart from wood?

Very small rocks...

[BLPOG]

Ducks! Witches!

Churches!

[OldPhiKap]

Build a bridge out of the duck. Problem solved.

[grad_devil]

A great gravy...

[devildeac]

Build a bridge out of the duck. Problem solved.

But you can build bridges with stone...

[BLPOG]

But you can build bridges with stone...

Yeah, but you need a Mason. Wrong brother.

[BD80]

Yeah, but you need a Mason. Wrong brother.

But also one to Marshall the forces, and ...

if the bridge is long enough ...

Miles to build

[devildeac]

But also one to Marshall the forces, and ...

if the bridge is long enough ...

Miles to build

Somehow, I knew that was inevitable...

(thought of it but just couldn't plum up enough courage to post...)

[madscavenger]

Viaduct?

[madscavenger]

My elephant gun:

Better bring a baby blue bumbershoot,
'cause the Devils gonna rain down threes.

[dairedevil]

Well, I think this thread can be closed.