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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 71, Yale 64 R32 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
03-19-2016, 04:59 PM
Survive and advance! Put your post-game thoughts here.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-19-2016, 05:01 PM
As my father stated with about two minutes left... "if you look closely, you can see our whole season in this game."

Survive and advance.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-19-2016, 05:01 PM
Phew! Survive and advance. LGD GTHc!

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-19-2016, 05:01 PM
I really wanted it to be "Relax and Advance"

TKG
03-19-2016, 05:01 PM
Coach K press conference bingo:

We beat a really good team.
They are good.
They are champions.
We are young.
We got knocked back.

On to the Sweet 16.

Emerrick
03-19-2016, 05:02 PM
I need a stent.

pamtar
03-19-2016, 05:02 PM
I need a shower.

gocanes0506
03-19-2016, 05:02 PM
Whomever the opponent the next game, I would press Duke as much as possible. Handled poorly throughout the 2nd half.

Man the rebounding disparity took off in the 2nd half. It's going to cost the team a game going forward.

tbyers11
03-19-2016, 05:02 PM
As my father stated with about two minutes left... "if you look closely, you can see our whole season in this game."

Survive and advance.

That's a very astute comment.

I'm going to pour myself a double whiskey now so that I don't have to consult DevilDeac on whether or not I'm actually having a heart attack

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 05:03 PM
God Bless the 1-3-1 zone! Saved our butts twice against Yale this season!

Thank you MP3 for that block at the end of the game! He wanted to cover the spread badly.

Sweet 16!

dukelifer
03-19-2016, 05:04 PM
After the first half, I thought Duke was going to have their out of their head performance for the tourney. Clearly I was very wrong. But they won and that is all that matters. They learned how to play with pressure. Let's see if it helps next game. This team is in the sweet 16. Grew up big time with this close win.

Dukehky
03-19-2016, 05:04 PM
Whatever. We have all said it all season long, Sweet sixteen would be a great season. We have that. Lets see what happens, hopefully we don't get embarrassed, and hopefully Carolina loses to Providence. They have the best player on the court, anything can happen.

Do we want St Joes or Oregon?

WakeDevil
03-19-2016, 05:06 PM
That was turrible.

Wahoo2000
03-19-2016, 05:07 PM
Curious if you guys think that the short bench plus 2 games in 3 days was more of the root of the 2nd half "slip up".

With a few days off to rest and prep, I'm picking Duke to beat Oregon on Thursday, though readily admit Oregon will likely be (slightly) favored. That said, winning that game will require a TREMENDOUS effort, and I don't think there'll be enough left in the tank to take out either A&M or OU in a regional final.

Still - super young team and super short bench getting to an E8.... that's a damn good season if it shakes out that way. Heck - even a S16 is a damn good season given the way things played out with not getting Jefferson back.


EDIT: Addendum - the dream of an all ACC final four is still alive. I'm betting on no less than 5 S16 teams, and 3E8 squads. Shaping up (though lots of work left to do) to be a GREAT year for the league in the tourney.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-19-2016, 05:07 PM
Is there live PC coverage somewhere?

GGLC
03-19-2016, 05:07 PM
Mason was 2-12. Everyone bagging on Matt may want to consider that. It was our consistently terrible shot selection that almost did us in this game.

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 05:08 PM
Live press conference here. Looks like Yale will go first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYG2DO3wt3U

devildeac
03-19-2016, 05:08 PM
I need a stent.


That's a very astute comment.

I'm going to pour myself a double whiskey now so that I don't have to consult DevilDeac on whether or not I'm actually having a heart attack

Cardiologists are over-rated. Whiskey is better. Or high ABV hand-crafted ales.

Duke76
03-19-2016, 05:08 PM
God Bless the 1-3-1 zone! Saved our butts twice against Yale this season!

Thank you MP3 for that block at the end of the game! He wanted to cover the spread badly.

Sweet 16!

quote of the year in NCAA basketball by Coach K, "Sometimes they get lost in the amusement park"....priceless

devildeac
03-19-2016, 05:09 PM
Curious if you guys think that the short bench plus 2 games in 3 days was more of the root of the 2nd half "slip up".

With a few days off to rest and prep, I'm picking Duke to beat Oregon on Thursday, though readily admit Oregon will likely be (slightly) favored. That said, winning that game will require a TREMENDOUS effort, and I don't think there'll be enough left in the tank to take out either A&M or OU in a regional final.

Still - super young team and super short bench getting to an E8... that's a damn good season if it shakes out that way. Heck - even a S16 is a damn good season given the way things played out with not getting Jefferson back.


EDIT: Addendum - the dream of an all ACC final four is still alive. I'm betting on no less than 5 S16 teams, and 3E8 squads. Shaping up (though lots of work left to do) to be a GREAT year for the league in the tourney.

Very nice thoughts/observations/comments. Thank you.

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 05:09 PM
Mason was 2-12. Everyone bagging on Matt may want to consider that. It was our consistently terrible shot selection that almost did us in this game.

I'm as big a Matt defender as anyone. It's between you, Ferry, and me for that honor, I think. But he was bad today. You're right, when not fouling, he played very good defense. But he was so bad on offense. And he DID foul and fouled out. We have to get more from him. And we will.

KandG
03-19-2016, 05:11 PM
Rather than dwell on any negatives coming from that second half near-meltdown, I'll accentuate the positive: this team has exceeded my expectations since Amile got injured.

There was a point where I just wanted Duke to make the tournament, especially during that mid-season swoon. Then I thought they could win one game in the NCAAs. For a team this young and thin to be in the Sweet Sixteen is an accomplishment.

As Coach K said in the postgame interview: "When you have three 18 year olds out there, sometimes they get lost in the amusement park". We've seen this team get lost in the amusement park an awful lot all season. It hasn't been great for anyone's blood pressure, but they *have* grown.

This team is who it is. They're physically limited, not deep, almost always hit a mental and physical wall in the last ten minutes of games against good teams. Brandon Ingram keeps getting better, Thornton and Kennard make small strides, Grayson continues to improve his mid-range game. The defense is even improving, at least if today is any indication.

But this team is not going to get so much better that they'll make a surprise run to the title, at least not in my view. There's no shame in that.

As long as they don't blow another 20 point lead or lose by 30 without any fight in their remaining games, I'm thrilled with where they are now and how they got here. I wish Amile hadn't gotten injured, that Matt never hurt his ankle, that Obi and Jeter were a little further along. But those are wishes. What we actually have represents Duke basketball very, very well. And Coach K has done a masterful job getting them there.

wsb3
03-19-2016, 05:11 PM
I'm going to pour myself a double whiskey now so that I don't have to consult DevilDeac on whether or not I'm actually having a heart attack

Very good. :D

Papa John
03-19-2016, 05:12 PM
Whatever. We have all said it all season long, Sweet sixteen would be a great season. We have that. Lets see what happens, hopefully we don't get embarrassed, and hopefully Carolina loses to Providence. They have the best player on the court, anything can happen.

Do we want St Joes or Oregon?

I'd prefer Oregon. If we're playing with house money at this point, as many have opined, I'd much rather play the underdog role... It suits us better.

Double whiskey sounds good, tbyers11, but a double tequila sounds even better... A well-rested Don Julio seeks to calm my nerves...

heyman25
03-19-2016, 05:12 PM
Tale of 2 halves indeed. I predicted a Butler 2010 type game. Duke self destructed to a degree I have not seen in recent years to almost make it like the Butler game.Very shaky ball handling and Matt Jones needs to stay in the game.Plumlee was excellent again, but next game Marshall watch the fouls. We need you on the court. Loved the first half, but we aided Yale in their comeback.

Wish I could go to Anaheim,since I live in LA. I have to work unfortunately. We can play great and we can play terrible as I just witnessed. I hope Coach K can figure out how to keep this team from such extremes next game.

FerryFor50
03-19-2016, 05:13 PM
Amazing how a team can full court press a majority of a half but still be 3 fouls below the bonus with a minute left.

Definitely helps a team get back into game, as does the passive offense and defense that Duke was playing.

And Matt Jones just doesn't look like himself. Looks slow off the dribble.

At least they had a 23 point lead at the half. We already know they can't hold a 16 point lead. No coincidence they won by 7...

But I'll take it. Will be an especially sweet 16 if Providence can somehow knock off UNC tonight.

MaxAMillion
03-19-2016, 05:16 PM
You can really see how not having a point guard hurts us. The team struggles at times to run offense. Just imagine if Tyus Jones had come back. Last year's team was good at running stuff at the end of the game (see Cook and Jones). This year's team seems lost late in games and when the other team makes a run. I sure hope Thornton can make improvements on decision making next year because he is excellent as an on ball defender.

On a separate note, I am so proud of how Plumlee has developed as a player and leader. I never thought he could have the type of impact that he is having on the team. He may be one of my favorite Duke players because he is playing to his full potential. I will miss him when he is gone.

devildeac
03-19-2016, 05:17 PM
Wait, we get El-Moron, Dweeber and Beagle and IU and UK get G. Hill/Raftery/Nantz? WTH?

MartyClark
03-19-2016, 05:17 PM
Great respect for Yale. How the heck do the rebound so well with their limited size and athleticism? They played great in the second half and seem to be well coached.

I'll take the narrow win. Everything from here is gravy.

I think Duke can beat Oregon. We'll see.

All in all, I think this is a good season for Duke. I've enjoyed the team and think K has done a great job. All seashells and balloons here.

jacone21
03-19-2016, 05:17 PM
"Amusement park" is a good metaphor, because I feel like I've been riding a roller coaster for the last 90 minutes. These younguns are killing me.

Dukehky
03-19-2016, 05:17 PM
Matt did a really good job defensively, but there was no way Mason was going to have the same kind of game he did against Baylor. I thought Derryck was just as good when it was his turn to man up on Mason.

I respect the fact that his teammates have faith in him, but Matt is clearly hurt and is battling his butt off on defense against a really good perimeter player usually, and therefore should just stand on the wing and make cuts without the ball on offense. He never needs to dribble.

Our best offense, in the event that we decide to slow it down, is go to super pro style and run a two man game with BI in the post and G on the wing. Have to double BI and if that happens, G is going to be open. That needs to be the play every time. Against UNC, we ran with what worked, and in games we've lost, when we found something that I thought was really good, we didn't even try it again.

Again, whatever. Yale is solid, we played stupid well the first half and pretty poorly the second half and won. I will take it, as will everyone else.

We can totally beat Oregon who beat up on a terrible conference and St. Joes, who is St. Joes.

wsb3
03-19-2016, 05:19 PM
Elmore & C Webb tried to be professional but late in the game they could not hide their bias. Calling for Duke to have a 3 second call of all things when Yale stayed in the lane basically all day.

I gave credit to Elmore Thursday for being more professional but today at the end with the game on the line it comes out.

Duke hatred alive & well.

COYS
03-19-2016, 05:20 PM
Both teams played out of their minds for a half. The result is that the Vegas predicted 6.5 point score line ended up being almost spot on. Funny how that works.

I wish the team would pay more attention to each possession long before Yale had a chance to get back into the game. We had some lackadaisical possessions at the end of the first half which is why we weren't up by 30 at the half. Then, we had some quick long twos or moderately well defended threes that didn't go down as they were cutting the lead down to 14. From there, it was a game.

Don't get me wrong, I love our guys and we should proud that they've done so well this year. They played well today. But I really hope we stay smart the next time we get a lead (which hopefully we'll be next Thursday!).

uh_no
03-19-2016, 05:20 PM
1) we still are awful against pressure. Yale turned on the press and we scored 12 points in 12 minutes (or something like that). atrocious. We improved late at just getting it across the line, but you think we would have learned our lesson after UL or Pitt....especially with so many guards.
2) we are still awful playing slow. this team goes cold when they try to slow it down at all. we've seen it the past few months with teams making big runs late.

Anyway. that barrage in the first half was incredible. grayson with 22 in how many minutes? we were 9-11 3pt at one point. I liked what i saw from derryck....some good decisions and passes he made which I'm skeptical he would have made earlier in the year.

Survive and advance. We have a good chance against oregon and a much needed rest.

NM Duke Fan
03-19-2016, 05:23 PM
I'm as big a Matt defender as anyone. It's between you, Ferry, and me for that honor, I think. But he was bad today. You're right, when not fouling, he played very good defense. But he was so bad on offense. And he DID foul and fouled out. We have to get more from him. And we will.

GGLC: as I said in my comment regarding Matt's leadership today, which you attacked quite directly, it happens... meaning it can happen to any player, or person for that matter. And I also complimented him on his D on Mason in that comment. But I almost wished for alternating him with Thornton on O today, Matt just was struggling to make good decisions on that side of the ball, maybe because he was putting out so much energy on D, I don't know. And as Troublemaker astutely noted, he did foul out, perhaps due to carelessness or fatigue... I appreciate his contributions, and hopefully he will learn from this game, as the team does as a group as well. PEACE!

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-19-2016, 05:24 PM
Really like Coach Jones. Kind of guy you'd like to see on your sideline.

tbyers11
03-19-2016, 05:24 PM
Cardiologists are over-rated. Whiskey is better. Or high ABV hand-crafted ales.

I'll have the hand-crafted ales later tonight. Needed something that worked a bit quicker here ;)

davekay1971
03-19-2016, 05:26 PM
Cardiologists are over-rated. Whiskey is better. Or high ABV hand-crafted ales.

Amen.

This cardiologist is helping himself and Mrs. Davekay1971 to a Rogue Sriracha Hot Stout Beer

BD80
03-19-2016, 05:26 PM
I need a stent.


I need a shower.

I need a cigarette ... maybe a nap.

Was it Webber that commented that this will be a good learning experience for the young team (echoed by Johnnie D later)? I agree. They are still getting better. We had significant time with 4 frosh and a soph.

House money from here. Who would want to see us in the coming rounds? We have the ability to shoot anyone out of the building.

dyedwab
03-19-2016, 05:26 PM
2) we are still awful playing slow. this team goes cold when they try to slow it down at all. we've seen it the past few months with teams making big runs late.


Not to get into a stall ball debate, but there are two parts to holding a lead - strategy and execution. And, because we hadn't actually held big leads against good teams, we didn't have the execution necessary. Simply put, we had no idea what to do when they put together their run - and then we decided "Let's give Brandon the ball because they don't have anyone who can guard him" and we stabilized.

Anyway, we won. It's great. Sweet 16 is house money to me this season.

wsb3
03-19-2016, 05:26 PM
We had some lackadaisical possessions at the end of the first half which is why we weren't up by 30 at the half.

That sequence really concerned me & I thought it would be tight at the end. It must have concerned Coach K to because he alluded to it in his halftime interview.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Elmore & C Webb tried to be professional but late in the game they could not hide their bias. Calling for Duke to have a 3 second call of all things when Yale stayed in the lane basically all day.

I gave credit to Elmore Thursday for being more professional but today at the end with the game on the line it comes out.

Duke hatred alive & well.
Well, Duke gets all the no calls....:rolleyes:

gurufrisbee
03-19-2016, 05:28 PM
I've seen a lot of fans complaining about stall ball in the second half. THe truth is our pace was pretty similar both halves. The first half we shot the lights out and Yale couldn't buy a three.

It's funny that with all the speculation about how Baylor's rebounding would crush Duke in this round, the best rebounding team BY FAR in this foursome was Yale.

We're an incredibly talented team. When we're clicking we can beat anyone - even without size or depth.

We're a very young team (yeah, yeah I know we were young last year but those freshmen are nothing like these ones and Cook and Amile brought a ton of veteran leadership on the floor) and when we get in a funk it is bad.

We definitely have a chance against whoever we play in Anaheim. And so do they.

But it's so SWEET just to be going there. Especially knowing how many brackets did not have this win happening (especially among the "experts").

wavedukefan70s
03-19-2016, 05:32 PM
I like len elmore better than weber.i dont like elmore..
But surprisingly he was better than the other two today.i must be coming down with something.

Looked like we stopped moving in the second half.our freshman have tournament experience now.on to next weekend.

gumbomoop
03-19-2016, 05:32 PM
Really like Coach Jones. Kind of guy you'd like to see on your sideline.

Amen. We have a very strong K-coaching-tree, so he wouldn't be our replacement candidate (5 years hence). Hope UNC isn't paying attention. (Cue the jokes re players being asked to take education seriously.)

dukelifer
03-19-2016, 05:36 PM
Ingram is not strong enough yet to take advantage of his crazy length inside.That showed itself today against solid but not NBA level talent. He is not physically ready to play against men but sadly his potential is so high that he needs to go pro. I hope the team that drafts him has patience.

Bob Green
03-19-2016, 05:37 PM
You can really see how not having a point guard hurts us. The team struggles at times to run offense.

The good news is Derryck Thornton is gaining invaluable experience game-by-game. He is going to be a star.

CDu
03-19-2016, 05:42 PM
We played like worldbeaters for about 16 minutes. Then we let our foot off the gas, and we played basically even for about 9 minutes. Then we self-destructed for about 5 minutes. Then we pasically played them even for the final 10 minutes. Thankfully, our huge first halfbeat their 15-0 stretch midway through the second half.

We played like a young team. For guys like Ingram and Thornton, that is to be expected, because they are young. It is surprising to see that from Jones and Plumlee though. And Allen, while a superstar, is also fairly young in experience.

Hopefully they learn from this. The last 15 minutes of the game included a lot of panic basketball. Thankfully we get 5 days to recover and to prepare for whomever we get next week. As has been said before, it's not how, it's how many. Survive and advance. GO DUKE!!!

Utley
03-19-2016, 05:43 PM
Collapse and Advance :). I echo the comment that the poor second half was all about poor shot selection which in turn left us out of position on defense. I think this a gritty group and it served us well at the end.

I am Saint Joe's undergrad and Duke grad. Things could be very interesting next week.

gurufrisbee
03-19-2016, 05:43 PM
I always remember the 1995 Arkansas team. Made it to the title game by winning by 1, 2 (in OT), 5 (in OT), 7 and 7. 5 wins by a total of 22 points and two needed overtime, but it got them to the title game. It's survive and advance. Just ask Michigan St, West Virginia, and Cal.

ncexnyc
03-19-2016, 05:44 PM
I guess a positive from this weekend is that we won the two games we should have. Going into the tournament I thought we could get 3 wins and I still believe that. Next week we'll be prepared and rested for that first game, but that second game against a stouter opponent and on the short rest will be very tough.

Funny, had we won by the same exact score only in a back and forth game people wouldn't be so down. The fact that we suffered a near epic meltdown puts a serious damper on a tournament win.

I'll say this about Matt. He giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other. As solid as he was on the defensive end, he was god awful on the offensive end.

Can somebody please tell Coach K he has the best player in America on his team. We need to ride Brandon as far as he'll take us. The kid needs to get the ball as often as possible down low, as it's obvious nobody is capable of guarding him.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, can somebody please tell Derryck enough with the long jumpers. He needs to attack the basket instead of putting up those long jumpers.

TKG
03-19-2016, 05:45 PM
Just saw this blurb come across: Coach K has become the first coach with 90 career victories in the NCAA Tournament.

dukelifer
03-19-2016, 05:46 PM
We played like worldbeaters for about 16 minutes. Then we let our foot off the gas, and we played basically even for about 9 minutes. Then we self-destructed for about 5 minutes. Then we pasically played them even for the final 10 minutes. Thankfully, our huge first halfbeat their 15-0 stretch midway through the second half.

We played like a young team. For guys like Ingram and Thornton, that is to be expected, because they are young. It is surprising to see that from Jones and Plumlee though. And Allen, while a superstar, is also fairly young in experience.

Hopefully they learn from this. The last 15 minutes of the game included a lot of panic basketball. Thankfully we get 5 days to recover and to prepare for whomever we get next week. As has been said before, it's not how, it's how many. Survive and advance. GO DUKE!!!

The tourney is all about how you play when there is pressure. This team panicked a lot toward the end after getting up 12. I did not expect that. But the young guys know what this feels like now. Duke time to rest and you never know. Very happy with the outcome but not the way it happened.

Duke76
03-19-2016, 05:47 PM
1) we still are awful against pressure. Yale turned on the press and we scored 12 points in 12 minutes (or something like that). atrocious. We improved late at just getting it across the line, but you think we would have learned our lesson after UL or Pitt...especially with so many guards.
2) we are still awful playing slow. this team goes cold when they try to slow it down at all. we've seen it the past few months with teams making big runs late.

Anyway. that barrage in the first half was incredible. grayson with 22 in how many minutes? we were 9-11 3pt at one point. I liked what i saw from derryck...some good decisions and passes he made which I'm skeptical he would have made earlier in the year.

Survive and advance. We have a good chance against oregon and a much needed rest.

"Our house is on a cliff and we hope it doesn't rain" from Coach K's presser, another jewel

tbyers11
03-19-2016, 05:48 PM
Curious if you guys think that the short bench plus 2 games in 3 days was more of the root of the 2nd half "slip up".

With a few days off to rest and prep, I'm picking Duke to beat Oregon on Thursday, though readily admit Oregon will likely be (slightly) favored. That said, winning that game will require a TREMENDOUS effort, and I don't think there'll be enough left in the tank to take out either A&M or OU in a regional final.

Still - super young team and super short bench getting to an E8... that's a damn good season if it shakes out that way. Heck - even a S16 is a damn good season given the way things played out with not getting Jefferson back.


EDIT: Addendum - the dream of an all ACC final four is still alive. I'm betting on no less than 5 S16 teams, and 3E8 squads. Shaping up (though lots of work left to do) to be a GREAT year for the league in the tourney.

Thanks for the post. I don't think the short bench had much to do with having the lead drop from 22 to 7 over a space of 4 minutes from 15:30 to 11:30. The youth of the team (18 year olds getting lost in the amusement park) and getting rattled/feeling pressure had more to do with it in my opinion.

However, after we stabilized and led by 12 after the Ingram 3 around the 3:30 mark, I thought it might have played a role. Mostly with Grayson and Ingram. Grayson made a really bad pass against minimal pressure for a turnover and Brandon left a layup he hits 95 times out of 100 short. They were the only 2 that played more than 31 minutes both games with Grayson going 40 both games and Ingram 39/40.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-19-2016, 05:48 PM
Cool stat from the PC... Brandon with over 600 pts as a freshman. Only other freshmen to do that at Duke... Jabari and Jahlil.

NM Duke Fan
03-19-2016, 05:49 PM
We played like worldbeaters for about 16 minutes. Then we let our foot off the gas, and we played basically even for about 9 minutes. Then we self-destructed for about 5 minutes. Then we pasically played them even for the final 10 minutes. Thankfully, our huge first halfbeat their 15-0 stretch midway through the second half.

We played like a young team. For guys like Ingram and Thornton, that is to be expected, because they are young. It is surprising to see that from Jones and Plumlee though. And Allen, while a superstar, is also fairly young in experience.

Hopefully they learn from this. The last 15 minutes of the game included a lot of panic basketball. Thankfully we get 5 days to recover and to prepare for whomever we get next week. As has been said before, it's not how, it's how many. Survive and advance. GO DUKE!!!

Exactement!! I thought it was even moreso Jones and Plumlee who started playing young, making bad decisions, fouls, and mistakes, more than the younger guys. Like I said elsewhere, it happens. And hopefully they got that out of theiir systmes for the rest of the season, we will see ...

gumbomoop
03-19-2016, 05:50 PM
Just saw this blurb come across: Coach K has become the first coach with 90 career victories in the NCAA Tournament.

I'll hope he makes it an even hundred in Phoenixapolis on April 3, 2017.

DUKIE V(A)
03-19-2016, 05:55 PM
Excited about yet another trip to the Sweet 16. Wow! I like our chances in our next game if we attack the pressure to score rather than just to get the ball over half court. Proud of the team! Go Duke!

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 05:57 PM
Matt did a really good job defensively, but there was no way Mason was going to have the same kind of game he did against Baylor. I thought Derryck was just as good when it was his turn to man up on Mason.

Yes, it was definitely a tag-team effort on Makai. 20 minutes from Matt, 23 minutes from Derryck. Altogether, very effective defense on him.

Brandon deserves some props for his defense on Sears, too, at least for most of the game. Since Sears can't shoot from outside, Brandon gave him some distance and was always in position to cut off a drive without fouling.

The first half offense was what Coach K's been dreaming about. When Ingram, Allen, and Kennard are all clicking at once, we have as good an offense as any team in the country.

JD for Three!
03-19-2016, 05:57 PM
Elmore & C Webb tried to be professional but late in the game they could not hide their bias. Calling for Duke to have a 3 second call of all things when Yale stayed in the lane basically all day.

I gave credit to Elmore Thursday for being more professional but today at the end with the game on the line it comes out.

Duke hatred alive & well.

I agree. Yale players spent so much time in the paint that they could have filed for a homestead exemption and saved some $.

Don't want to seem sore about it, but the foul stats for the second half are distorted by all of the intentional ones by Yale at the end. Felt like Brandon got fouled many times when he drove the lane, and the refs were checking out the crowd or vendors or something other than the game

Doria
03-19-2016, 05:58 PM
I love this team, but they can be frustrating to watch. Every one (it feels like) of my least favorite things Duke does happened in this game: shaky to poor end to first half and start of second, lazy passes that lead to turnovers, stupid fouls (not the result of aggressive defense or a poor call), lack of adjustment in-game to defensive changes, over-reliance on one player when the game tightens, poor job of boxing out, etc.

However, there were some positives, too. The first 3/4ths of the first half was extremely strong for us on both ends of the floor. It was aided by some cold shooting by Yale, but also some solid defense. I hope we can build on this experience.

Sometimes, I think this team will be the death of me. Still, if you'd told me in January that we wouldn't get Amile back and we were still going to the Sweet 16, I would have been pretty surprised. I definitely want to keep winning, but personally, I can't see this season as anything but a success now.

Reddevil
03-19-2016, 05:59 PM
I'm not quite certain what the lesson is, but i'm glad they have five days to learn it. Finally, THIS team is playing with house money. Every tough game I can't help wondering how things would be with Amile. The only reason I bring it up is because we all know the answer. This team can play with anyone for 20 - 30 minutes. Sweet 16 though - huh?!! Gotta love it for this gritty bunch. This toughness is something the frosh will bring with them into the future. I do wish I knew what the primary lesson learned from this was. Thoughts?

TKG
03-19-2016, 06:03 PM
Any links to the post game press conference? I get an error message when trying to access the link offered earlier in this thread.

SCMatt33
03-19-2016, 06:03 PM
So I've just now recovered from the heart attack I was having. Good job by the guys to not let the pressure overwhelm them in the last minute and hit 6-7 fts, iirc. You can't ask for anything more from these guys than what they've given, and making the sweet 16 as a 4 seed is no given in any year, but especially this one, so congratulations are in order.

Whoever we play next week, I'm just glad we get an extra day of rest!

mapei
03-19-2016, 06:06 PM
I thought the key to stopping their run and closing it out was going to the 1-3-1. Brandon is my MOTM for leading that defense was well as making HUGE clutch shots and FTs. Coach K said in the postgame that BI practiced FTs at that end of the floor yesterday and hit 67 straight. Brandon said his mental focus at the line was all about continuing to do what he had done in practice.

Props to MP3 for those blocked and altered shots, too.

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 06:10 PM
Any links to the post game press conference? I get an error message when trying to access the link offered earlier in this thread.

Try this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq2voFvEi1g). The other link may only work when watching it live.

npdevil27
03-19-2016, 06:11 PM
Man... Matt Jones. Dude has forgotten how to dribble, and his decisions on D were horrendous. I love his fire and intensity but overall feels like he has taken a step back this year. Guessing the ankle is still bothering him a lot.

CameronDuke
03-19-2016, 06:14 PM
What a heck of a win. To almost have the wheels fall off and still win shows how far we've come. We grew up a lot today. I don't know if we hold on there a month ago.

I saw several comments about how Duke will do against Oregon. Oregon has to beat St. Joe's folks. St. Joe's is a terrific tram who won the A10 tournament title. They are the real deal. The kid Bembry for St. Joe's is a BEAST who will play in the NBA one day. Miles is good for St. Joe's too. St. Joe's and head coach Phil Martelli will give Oregon everything they have. I would not be at all surprised if St. Joe's beat Oregon tomorrow. A Duke St. Joe's sweet 16 game would be a battle.

superdave
03-19-2016, 06:15 PM
I'm as big a Matt defender as anyone. It's between you, Ferry, and me for that honor, I think. But he was bad today. You're right, when not fouling, he played very good defense. But he was so bad on offense. And he DID foul and fouled out. We have to get more from him. And we will.

I just typed a long post on Matt Jones vs. Derryck Thornton (Thorton to some of you!) and deleted it because it sounded like complaining on the re-read. We won. Next play. Have a drink and enjoy the Sweet 16!

Go Duke!

superdave
03-19-2016, 06:20 PM
Wait, we get El-Moron, Dweeber and Beagle and IU and UK get G. Hill/Raftery/Nantz? WTH?

Somebody said it the other day, but shouldnt Chris Webber's admitted NCAA violations keep him away from Ncaa games? Have some integrity, CBS/Ncaa. Wankers.

Saratoga2
03-19-2016, 06:23 PM
I'm as big a Matt defender as anyone. It's between you, Ferry, and me for that honor, I think. But he was bad today. You're right, when not fouling, he played very good defense. But he was so bad on offense. And he DID foul and fouled out. We have to get more from him. And we will.

Lets hope it can be chocked up to his sore ankles. I too thought he was slow and was getting into difficulty defensively and had some reach fouls because of it. Mason was too quick for him and perhaps Derryck was a better match, though much less experienced. As far as offense, Matt produced nothing, slowed the ball down and was turnover prone. Maybe 4 days off will help him recover some of his mojo.

MartyClark
03-19-2016, 06:24 PM
Somebody said it the other day, but shouldnt Chris Webber's admitted NCAA violations keep him away from Ncaa games? Have some integrity, CBS/Ncaa. Wankers.

Good question SuperDave. I was not a big fan of the Fab Five. I vaguely recall from past posts that others viewed them differently.

I do believe in second chances and the opportunity for someone to redeem themselves. I guess I haven't followed Webber's path closely enough to see whether he meet my subjective criteria.

He sure was a great college player.

superdave
03-19-2016, 06:28 PM
I wish the team would pay more attention to each possession long before Yale had a chance to get back into the game. We had some lackadaisical possessions at the end of the first half which is why we weren't up by 30 at the half. Then, we had some quick long twos or moderately well defended threes that didn't go down as they were cutting the lead down to 14. From there, it was a game.

This team plays on rhythm and pace, the exact opposite of the 2010 team that played for preciseness and efficiency. This team will take heat check threes; that team would drool at the thought of making the other team defend for the entire shot clock. This team could have used some of that execution fetish in the second half today. It's just not who they are.

But at this point in the season, embrace who you are. Play with energy and swagger. Get that fourth plate at the buffet!

If they go out, I want to see this swashbuckling team go out swinging, firing up threes and yelling after every make. They are fun to watch,. You cannot ask for anything more out of this squad.

DukieInBrasil
03-19-2016, 06:29 PM
Survive and advance! Put your post-game thoughts here.

We won our 1st Rd game by 8, 2nd Rd game by 7. If my math checks out, we should win the next game by 6 and eventually the National Championship by 3. Sounds good to me!

subzero02
03-19-2016, 06:32 PM
I need a cigarette ... maybe a nap.

Was it Webber that commented that this will be a good learning experience for the young team (echoed by Johnnie D later)? I agree. They are still getting better. We had significant time with 4 frosh and a soph.

House money from here. Who would want to see us in the coming rounds? We have the ability to shoot anyone out of the building.

Exactly... about the ability to shoot anyone out of the building. Disagree about the house money concept. We have another 4 team tourney next weekend that we are more than capable of winning.

77devil
03-19-2016, 06:33 PM
We won our 1st Rd game by 8, 2nd Rd game by 7. If my math checks out, we should win the next game by 6 and eventually the National Championship by 3. Sounds good to me!

Grayson's free throws were huge. My bet with the Vegas sports book was Duke -6.5. Survive and advance. Now let's go beat a 3rd #1 seed assuming Oregon survives the Hawks.

77devil
03-19-2016, 06:36 PM
I just typed a long post on Matt Jones vs. Derryck Thornton (Thorton to some of you!) and deleted it because it sounded like complaining on the re-read. We won. Next play. Have a drink and enjoy the Sweet 16!

Go Duke!

I know what you wrote because I was thinking the same thing.

superdave
03-19-2016, 06:39 PM
Ingram is not strong enough yet to take advantage of his crazy length inside.That showed itself today against solid but not NBA level talent. He is not physically ready to play against men but sadly his potential is so high that he needs to go pro. I hope the team that drafts him has patience.

I thought this back in November, but then Brandon started figuring things out. He realized he could get to rebounds faster than anyone else because of his length. He learned to finish through contact. He has grown exponentially.

I think he has an other-worldly skill set. He is Penny Hardaway x Kevin Durant. He is going to be fun to watch for 20 years. I see him as an all-star by year three. I love his game. Could have the career we all wanted Grant to have.

jv001
03-19-2016, 06:42 PM
Lets hope it can be chocked up to his sore ankles. I too thought he was slow and was getting into difficulty defensively and had some reach fouls because of it. Mason was too quick for him and perhaps Derryck was a better match, though much less experienced. As far as offense, Matt produced nothing, slowed the ball down and was turnover prone. Maybe 4 days off will help him recover some of his mojo.

Matt has never been the fastest or quickest player afoot, but I don't remember him being this slow. It has to be those ankles. However with his experience, he shouldn't make the decisions he does. He seems to be in a panic mode when he's pressured. Against a good pressing team he's a liability on offense. On the positive side, I'm really proud of this team. They showed a lot of heart today when the heat was on. I'm hoping this game gives them confidence that they can get the job done. On to the Sweet Sixteen and GoDuke!

Saratoga2
03-19-2016, 06:43 PM
The three guys who led our offense were Grayson, Brandon and Luke. The strategy at the end of the game was to put the ball in the hands of either Brandon or Grayson and it looks like Luke was told not to try to make an offensive play. He handled the ball pretty well and it is a shame coach doesn't find a way to also involve him later in the game. If fouled, he is almost automatic.

The team lost focus in the second half and even at the end of the first half. Way too many turnovers including some unforced. Matt, Grayson and Derryck were all guilty during that period. It appears if we get the ball up court without turning it over we then go to slowdown and then give the ball to Brandon to create his own. If not him, Grayson gets the call. Matt had trouble with his handle against the press so it was just as well when he left the game.

Survive and advance but I also hope we can learn from these games. Pitt, ND and now Yale all have seen us collapse or nearly collapse. Plenty of situations to learn from among these.

77devil
03-19-2016, 06:43 PM
I'd prefer Oregon. If we're playing with house money at this point, as many have opined, I'd much rather play the underdog role... It suits us better.

Double whiskey sounds good, tbyers11, but a double tequila sounds even better... A well-rested Don Julio seeks to calm my nerves...

Me too, on Oregon that is. Our guys will relish the opportunity to beat a third one seed as the underdog.

superdave
03-19-2016, 06:45 PM
Cool stat from the PC... Brandon with over 600 pts as a freshman. Only other freshmen to do that at Duke... Jabari and Jahlil.

Now that would be a fun frontline to watch.

dukelifer
03-19-2016, 06:47 PM
I thought this back in November, but then Brandon started figuring things out. He realized he could get to rebounds faster than anyone else because of his length. He learned to finish through contact. He has grown exponentially.

I think he has an other-worldly skill set. He is Penny Hardaway x Kevin Durant. He is going to be fun to watch for 20 years. I see him as an all-star by year three. I love his game. Could have the career we all wanted Grant to have.

I have no doubt of his potential - but playing through contact down low at the next level is going to take a bit more bulk and strength.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-19-2016, 06:47 PM
I said before the brackets were released that less than two wins would be disappointing and more than two would be exhilerating. Still feels about right.

slower
03-19-2016, 06:57 PM
Who would want to see us in the coming rounds? We have the ability to shoot anyone out of the building.

I still don't get this mindset. This isn't last year's team. We don't instill fear in other teams. Other teams WANT to play us, because they think they can beat us. Sure, we have the ability to shoot a lot of teams out of the building. We also have the tendency to get rattled and drive it into the ditch. And we won't even talk about rebounding or defense.

To all you Matt Jones apologists, let nobody doubt his heart or leadership. But even at 100%, he's an offensive momentum-killer. Give the rock to DT or Brandon or Grayson and let them create some offense.

JNort
03-19-2016, 07:00 PM
Whatever. We have all said it all season long, Sweet sixteen would be a great season. We have that. Lets see what happens, hopefully we don't get embarrassed, and hopefully Carolina loses to Providence. They have the best player on the court, anything can happen.

Do we want St Joes or Oregon?

I always prefer the easiest path but imo it doesn't matter, I stand by what I said and that is we are one of the best 5 teams in the tournament. Still like our shot to make the Natty

superdave
03-19-2016, 07:05 PM
I have always advocated turning into a junk ball pitcher when your opponent gets hot. Coach K did that today. Throwing that 1-3-1 out there was the right move. No one at the college level knows what to do with Brandon up top and Marshall at the free throw line. It's just so much length and so weird. It worked well. It gave our aimless guys a sense of purpose.

We also employed the "No one can guard Brandon" offense which, well, no one can guard that kid. But that kinda limits things. Yale did a good job of cutting off our straight line drives. But Luke is a really creative offensive pleyer ( a la Scheyer) and Grayson is a running back on the court. I felt like we didnt pick and roll enough on the offensive end. Line em up and see if they can defend. We played one on one too much.

Coach K is the man. Needs to be said. The 1-3-1 won the game.

devildeac
03-19-2016, 07:10 PM
Amen.

This cardiologist is helping himself and Mrs. Davekay1971 to a Rogue Sriracha Hot Stout Beer

You two are brave souls. Sriracha and beer :eek: . I swore off hot peppers and beer after the fiery Mini Dingo I had after the Mercer loss.

Bob Green
03-19-2016, 07:23 PM
I swore off hot peppers and beer after the fiery Mini Dingo I had after the Mercer loss.

That stuff was terrible. At least the company was great!

devildeac
03-19-2016, 07:31 PM
That stuff was terrible. At least the company was great!

Well, 2 outta 3 weren't bad.;)

subzero02
03-19-2016, 07:45 PM
The 1-3-1 was great... Brandon needs to do a better job of selling/drawing contact on his drives

GGLC
03-19-2016, 07:57 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.

Bob Green
03-19-2016, 07:59 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.

Just ignore the vocal minority. Most posters recognize and appreciate Matt Jones' importance to the team.

BLPOG
03-19-2016, 08:13 PM
You two are brave souls. Sriracha and beer :eek: . I swore off hot peppers and beer after the fiery Mini Dingo I had after the Mercer loss.

Fun fact: capsaicin, the source of the "heat" in hot peppers, is an inhibitor of CYP3A4, a liver enzyme important for drug metabolism. Acute ingestion of capsaicin-containing foods along with beer should make you feel the effects of the beer more strongly, but regular ingestion results in up-regulation of CYP3A4 and better drug clearance.

On the subject of basketball, Matt Jones is my favorite player on the team. Today didn't change that, and I'll leave it at that.

TKG
03-19-2016, 08:17 PM
Somebody said it the other day, but shouldnt Chris Webber's admitted NCAA violations keep him away from Ncaa games? Have some integrity, CBS/Ncaa. Wankers.

Or at least have him call the Cheats game.....

Steven43
03-19-2016, 08:19 PM
But this team is not going to get so much better that they'll make a surprise run to the title, at least not in my view. There's no shame in that.
I don't see any reason why this team cannot win four games against good, but not great, teams. It's anybody's ballgame this year. I would not be at all shocked if Duke repeats as National Champions.

Clay Feet POF
03-19-2016, 08:20 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.


+111

slower
03-19-2016, 08:21 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.

It's not "hate." We all know what Matt brings to the team.

But he shouldn't be running the offense or bringing the ball up the court when DT, Grayson, Brandon and Luke are ALL more skilled at doing these things. I'm sorry, but Matt just bogs down the offense. And if he's injured or not paying dividends on the defensive end, what's the opportunity cost of playing him?

It seems to have always been the opinion around here that K runs a meritocracy, with a dash of veteran-leadership sentimentality thrown in. And we all trust in K to do what's best. But sometimes it seems that the working margin is cut very, very close. We shouldn't HAVE to keep white-knuckling the end of these games - should we?

Kdogg
03-19-2016, 08:25 PM
Somebody said it the other day, but shouldnt Chris Webber's admitted NCAA violations keep him away from Ncaa games? Have some integrity, CBS/Ncaa. Wankers.

Then Charles' admitted violations should keep him away too. He just wasn't caught and revealed them after the statute of limitations expired. For the record I like both and like both tend to favor Coach K.

SupaDave
03-19-2016, 08:25 PM
I thought this back in November, but then Brandon started figuring things out. He realized he could get to rebounds faster than anyone else because of his length. He learned to finish through contact. He has grown exponentially.

I think he has an other-worldly skill set. He is Penny Hardaway x Kevin Durant. He is going to be fun to watch for 20 years. I see him as an all-star by year three. I love his game. Could have the career we all wanted Grant to have.

Not sure what kind of career you wanted for Grant but he's gotta do Lebron James, Kobe numbers to out do Grant...

Furniture
03-19-2016, 08:26 PM
I thought we won today?

Reddevil
03-19-2016, 08:32 PM
Just ignore the vocal minority. Most posters recognize and appreciate Matt Jones' importance to the team.


2nd this, and as we all know Duke will NOT be can considered an underdog by ANY opponent in any round any time soon. That has been earned.

devilnfla
03-19-2016, 08:36 PM
Mason was 2-12. Everyone bagging on Matt may want to consider that. It was our consistently terrible shot selection that almost did us in this game.

I think DT had a lot to do with that.

duke4ever19
03-19-2016, 08:36 PM
Not sure what kind of career you wanted for Grant but he's gotta do Lebron James, Kobe numbers to out do Grant...

I think he meant that the pre-injuries Grant Hill. And yes, Ingram can have a better career than Hill and not reach Lebron or Kobe. There's a lot more space between Kobe and Lebron over Hill than perhaps you think. It's a fairly wide gap at that. Pre-injury Hill was first ballot, but we have to take the whole career into perspective.

NSDukeFan
03-19-2016, 08:39 PM
I have always advocated turning into a junk ball pitcher when your opponent gets hot. Coach K did that today. Throwing that 1-3-1 out there was the right move. No one at the college level knows what to do with Brandon up top and Marshall at the free throw line. It's just so much length and so weird. It worked well. It gave our aimless guys a sense of purpose.

We also employed the "No one can guard Brandon" offense which, well, no one can guard that kid. But that kinda limits things. Yale did a good job of cutting off our straight line drives. But Luke is a really creative offensive pleyer ( a la Scheyer) and Grayson is a running back on the court. I felt like we didnt pick and roll enough on the offensive end. Line em up and see if they can defend. We played one on one too much.

Coach K is the man. Needs to be said. The 1-3-1 won the game.
When I first heard about the lost in the amusement park quote, I thought it referred to Duke's 1-3-1 with Ingram at the top and Plumlee at the foul line being hard to see around. That defense can really slow down a team trying to make a comeback.

Just ignore the vocal minority. Most posters recognize and appreciate Matt Jones' importance to the team.
I certainly do and was really impressed with his D on Mason in the first half. That was one of, if not the biggest, key(s) to the great defense in the first half. He had a couple bad fouls and definitely at least one or two unlucky/cheap ones and had two turnovers today, but I would rather have him out there as much as we can.

I recorded the game and paused it with about 16 minutes left to go make and have supper and was in such a great mood and was thankful that Duke was going to win one without causing too much stress. I was a little off on that one, but was happy to see the guys play well after the huge run and with the crowd into it at the end. Nice win. Survive and advance.

I was very happy to see Luke start off aggressive and hitting. That guy is so fun to watch, even though he has had a couple turnovers in the tournament. He will be a favourite of mine for the next few years, at least I hope. Grayson Allen, what a first half! That guy is unbelievable. The only thing that can slow him down is wet floors. Ingram is awesome as well, but don't know about calling him the best player on the floor. He is the best prospect, but Grayson has shown this year that he is special. I have loved some of those long drives Ingram has had and loved how complete a player he has become. Of course, I love everything about MP3 and the player and leader he seems to be. Thornton took one three that I thought he could have waited on, and may have had one I'll-advised drive, but besides that, he has been making excellent decisions, has fantastic lateral quickness on D and is fantastic against pressure defense. Great to see solid minutes from Jeter when called upon as well.

These guys are so fun to watch. These guys will have as good a chance as anyone in their mini-tournament next weekend of advancing. I am looking forward to it and hope I get to see them play a few more games. As imperfect as they may be, they are certainly talented and determined. Go Duke.

sagegrouse
03-19-2016, 08:41 PM
It's not "hate." We all know what Matt brings to the team.

But he shouldn't be running the offense or bringing the ball up the court when DT, Grayson, Brandon and Luke are ALL more skilled at doing these things. I'm sorry, but Matt just bogs down the offense. And if he's injured or not paying dividends on the defensive end, what's the opportunity cost of playing him?

It seems to have always been the opinion around here that K runs a meritocracy, with a dash of veteran-leadership sentimentality thrown in. And we all trust in K to do what's best. But sometimes it seems that the working margin is cut very, very close. We shouldn't HAVE to keep white-knuckling the end of these games - should we?

Matt Jones appears to be our best defender. What you have him do the other one-half of the game?

Newton_14
03-19-2016, 08:41 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.


Just ignore the vocal minority. Most posters recognize and appreciate Matt Jones' importance to the team.

Agree with Bob. Matt's defense today was outstanding on Mason. A total shutdown and I can live with the fouls if he is shutting down a star and severely impacting the opponent's offense because of it. He was in that kids shorts every possession. Derryck played good defense as well but just not at the level Matt did.

Congrats to this team for fighting and clawing their way to the Sweet 16, and for the haters who will say we got lucky with Yale upsetting Baylor, well, ... we would have steamrolled Baylor today by 20+. I think it obvious Yale is a better team than Baylor and no way Baylor comes back from being 27 down. But, so proud of this team. If they don't win another game I am thrilled at how they performed and the results they achieved, playing without Amile.

For those that needed alcohol, cigarettes, and naps, I actually had to take a Xanax (I suffer from anxiety disorder anyway) and go outside and do yard work right after the held ball with 7ish minutes to go on the play where Mason got hit in the eye. Had the truck near me while working, so turned on the radio to Bob Harris when I could not stand it any longer, to learn we were up 10 with 3 minutes to go! Yay! Left it on and had to turn it off again when Yale cut it to 5. Turned it back on and it was 30 second left so rode it out to the end. My heart can only stand so much of this!

But it is all gravy from here. I want them to win of course but I will not be devastated if they lose, like most years.

As for the game itself, our defense was really really good during the 16 minutes we built the 27 point lead. We forced them into bad shots early and often and held our own on the glass. I thought that energized the offense which was just ridiculous. Brandon and Luke got us started and then Grayson just imposed his will, and put his wonderful well rounded skillset on display. >Insert funny Elmore Moment< When Grayson hit the 3 where he was standing right in front of the Yale bench, held the ball about 7 seconds and then launched the flatfooted 3 that swished, Elmore started on this strange rant where he was trying to explain some bizarre theory that the Yale kid should just man up and not let Grayson have that spot on the floor again and "force him to do something else". However, before Elmore could even finish the rant, Duke had the ball back and Grayson stuck a midrange jumper from near the foul line. That was funny.

I like K, was not happy with the verve they showed in the final 4 minutes of the first half. They got careless and lost intensity on both ends, allowing Yale to cut it to I think 19, before we got it back to 23. You should never ever lose after being up 23 at the half of course, but being up 27 to 30ish makes it almost a certainty a comeback will not be possible. Yale cut it to 3 but could get no closer.

It just goes to show, every possession is important in the NCAA and should be treated as such. Never take a play off, and always attempt to execute as well as possible on every offensive and defensive possession, or else it could end up being super important later in the game.

Our guys hung on and closed them out which is all that matters. Survive and Advance.

Go Duke! On to the Sweet Sixteen! Give it your best shot and see what happens!

Bob Green
03-19-2016, 08:43 PM
The tripping meme continues:

http://fansided.com/2016/03/19/grayson-allen-appeared-to-trip-yales-makai-mason-in-first-half-video/

77devil
03-19-2016, 08:44 PM
Matt Jones appears to be our best defender. What you have him do the other one-half of the game?

Stand in the corner away from the ball.

JNort
03-19-2016, 08:46 PM
I'm going to stop posting here until next season, probably, because the Matt Jones hate is really silly and depressing. It just makes me sad.


Just ignore the vocal minority. Most posters recognize and appreciate Matt Jones' importance to the team.

What's so sad about what peole are saying? He like other guys has limitations and today his were hurting us. Everybody has been given a scolding on here at some point in the season. I'll admit I'm probably the biggest Matt "hater" on here but I recognize he has talent and a solid place on this team. He is the epitome of a 3 and D player and those guys are at every level of basketball. What people are not liking is that Matt is trying to do more than he is actually capable of or K is asking him to one.

Matt is a great no never mind, excellent spot up shooter and good on ball defender. Every guard plus Ingram on our team however is more suited to handling the ball or creating shots for others. If Matt plays his game offensively (spot up outside the arc) while giving guys some rest then he is being successful. Today he tried to play outside his game and even though he was great today defensively he has been struggling on that end since his injury.

BD80
03-19-2016, 08:46 PM
Then Charles' admitted violations should keep him away too. He just wasn't caught and revealed them after the statute of limitations expired. For the record I like both and like both tend to favor Coach K.

Webber was seriously considering Duke, and was considered by some at least a Duke lean. Of course, as we learned later, $ won out.

Regardless, Webber had a good relationship with Coach K.

devilnfla
03-19-2016, 08:51 PM
+111

I love Matt Jones, but I was relieved today when he fouled out.

slower
03-19-2016, 08:53 PM
Matt Jones appears to be our best defender. What you have him do the other one-half of the game?

Well, note that I said IF he wasn't paying dividends on the defensive end. But your point is well-taken.

I guess K and staff just have to decide whether his offensive liabilities outweigh his defensive benefits. It seems to be a fine line (or even an art) when evaluating the overall impact. As many of you have noted, K and staff have made their opinion known by keeping him in the game, even if it is to the team's offensive detriment. So be it.

77devil
03-19-2016, 08:55 PM
Agree with Bob. Matt's defense today was outstanding on Mason. A total shutdown and I can live with the fouls if he is shutting down a star and severely impacting the opponent's offense because of it. He was in that kids shorts every possession. Derryck played good defense as well but just not at the level Matt did.

This is just inaccurate. First of all, Matt was on the floor for only half the game. Second, Yale made most of the big surge in the second half when Matt was in the game. Third, the switch to the 1-3-1 was the major factor disrupting Mason.

Karl Beem
03-19-2016, 08:59 PM
I don't see any reason why this team cannot win four games against good, but not great, teams. It's anybody's ballgame this year. I would not be at all shocked if Duke repeats as National Champions.

Would be great! 2nd of 4.

NSDukeFan
03-19-2016, 09:01 PM
This is just inaccurate. First of all, Matt was on the floor for only half the game. Second, Yale made most of the big surge in the second half when Matt was in the game. Third, theswitch to the 1-3-1 was the major factor disrupting Mason .
Did you miss the first half? That disruption was Matt Jones, with help from his locked-in teammates.

TKG
03-19-2016, 09:02 PM
Webber was seriously considering Duke, and was considered by some at least a Duke lean. Of course, as we learned later, $ won out.

Regardless, Webber had a good relationship with Coach K.

At one point we were in the running for both Webber and Alan Henderson!

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:03 PM
Not sure what kind of career you wanted for Grant but he's gotta do Lebron James, Kobe numbers to out do Grant...

Not really. 17/6/4 for a career avg should be within reach for him assuming of course he A)stays healthy and B) his pro prospects are even somewhat accurate

Newton_14
03-19-2016, 09:05 PM
This is just inaccurate. First of all, Matt was on the floor for only half the game. Second, Yale made most of the big surge in the second half when Matt was in the game. Third, the switch to the 1-3-1 was the major factor disrupting Mason.

It's not inaccurate. Go back and watch the tape. I was speaking to his defense on Mason in the first half when we were playing great defense as a team. When Matt was defending Mason in the first half he did totally shut him down. The kid could not get a shot off. The big surge in the 2nd half was due to our kids losing their minds collectively on both ends of the floor, and little to do with Matt's defense on Mason. By the time we switched to the 1-3-1, the impact of Matt's D on Mason and Derryck's D on Mason had already happened. The 1-3-1 disrupted Yale as a team. Which has nothing at all to do with how well we defended Mason in m2m so its a moot point and not relevant.

At any rate, I'm not inclined to argue about it. Duke won a really strange game, and are taking this young and fragile team to the Sweet 16 which is all I care about really.

If folks want to go on and on arguing about Matt's defense, so be it, but the focus should be on the team win and team performance.

sagegrouse
03-19-2016, 09:08 PM
What's so sad about what peole are saying? He like other guys has limitations and today his were hurting us. Everybody has been given a scolding on here at some point in the season. I'll admit I'm probably the biggest Matt "hater" on here but I recognize he has talent and a solid place on this team. He is the epitome of a 3 and D player and those guys are at every level of basketball. What people are not liking is that Matt is trying to do more than he is actually capable of or K is asking him to one.

Let's see.... Makai Mason scored eight points after scoring -- what? -- 28 versus Baylor.

We have only six players. I am thnakful for everything he provides on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage
'By the way, the announcers never mentioned that "makai" means towards or by the sea in Hawaiian. There, directions are either "makai" or "mauka (towards the mountains). It's not clear that his parents selected the name on the basis of that meaning'

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:08 PM
This is just inaccurate. First of all, Matt was on the floor for only half the game. Second, Yale made most of the big surge in the second half when Matt was in the game. Third, the switch to the 1-3-1 was the major factor disrupting Mason.


Did you miss the first half? That disruption was Matt Jones, with help from his locked-in teammates.


Eh I disagree that Matt played better D than Thornton. DT has been the best defender we have all year long and was again today. I also recall them making their big surge with Matt on the floor but my memory could be shakey due to the stress that game was causing.

However! I do think Matt was a huuge reason that that kid (sorry forgot his name) was shutdown. The announcers even pointed it out. Matt was all up in his face and fighting through screens.

77devil
03-19-2016, 09:09 PM
Did you miss the first half? That disruption was Matt Jones, with help from his locked-in teammates.

While he sat on the bench for 11 minutes?

GGLC
03-19-2016, 09:10 PM
Let's see... Makai Mason scored eight points after scoring -- what? -- 28 versus Baylor.

We have only six players. I am thnakful for everything he provides on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage
'By the way, the announcers never mentioned that "makai" means towards or by the sea in Hawaiian. There, directions are either "makai" or "mauka (towards the mountains). It's not clear that his parents selected the name on the basis of that meaning'

Thank you, Sage.

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:10 PM
Let's see... Makai Mason scored eight points after scoring -- what? -- 28 versus Baylor.

We have only six players. I am thnakful for everything he provides on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage
'By the way, the announcers never mentioned that "makai" means towards or by the sea in Hawaiian. There, directions are either "makai" or "mauka (towards the mountains). It's not clear that his parents selected the name on the basis of that meaning'

I think you quoted the wrong person. I said what you said just more drawn out...

weezie
03-19-2016, 09:11 PM
... the focus should be on the team win and team performance.

Yeah seriously, come on Devil fans, all oars to the helm. Less couch analysis, more prayers, cheering and hope. :cool:

Doria
03-19-2016, 09:13 PM
You guys are still talking about Matt? I thought you'd all be celebrating the win...

(On another note, there has been some dubious fashion choices among analysts and commentators across all the channels. Seeing Kenny Smith's jacket straining at the button--for two days in a row!--makes me want to throttle his tailor.)

uh_no
03-19-2016, 09:14 PM
Yeah seriously, come on Devil fans, all oars to the helm. Less couch analysis, more prayers, cheering and beer. :cool:

i think you missed the one thing that REALLY helps

SupaDave
03-19-2016, 09:15 PM
We beat a team so bad in the first half that we could afford to play defense the whole second half. If you don't know what championship basketball is - you saw it tonight...

K has a method. Sometimes it kills us but remember - damn near all of his championship wins have been down to the wire. He prepares the team for this.

TNTDevil
03-19-2016, 09:15 PM
I thought we won today?
<ImAWankerforsayingthis> A! Did everybody just miss the fact the #2 Miami gave up a big lead and and needed a special effort from Rodriguez to secure victory?

Geez rooks, it's the tourney and nobody wants to go home.

As I said to my pal CB&B, this tournament is looking a lot like this entire MCBB season-- totally whack!

The sweetest thing about today's victory? All those reporters who had to delete the story they were writing about Duke's "epic collapse". (h/t CB&B)

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:16 PM
We beat a team so bad in the first half that we could afford to play defense the whole second half. If you don't know what championship basketball is - you saw it tonight...

K has a method. Sometimes it kills us but remember - damn near all of his championship wins have been down to the wire. He prepares the team for this.

Idk I think I would prefer K to have us win by 30 every game. Helps with my blood pressure ya know?

TKG
03-19-2016, 09:16 PM
(On another note, there has been some dubious fashion choices among analysts and commentators across all the channels. Seeing Kenny Smith's jacket straining at the button--for two days in a row!--makes me want to throttle his tailor.)

That tailor must offer volume discounts for Cheats - Old Roy has a curious relationship with men's fashion as well.

77devil
03-19-2016, 09:16 PM
We have only six players.

Chase says thank you.

fan345678
03-19-2016, 09:20 PM
I seem to remember a lot of Matt-bashing between last year's Utah and Gonzaga games.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1wd0Hbu6NY

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:21 PM
Chase says thank you.

Yeah my thoughts also. I just didn't wanna double quote. Ya know he is gonna make for some interesting off season talk. What will his role and pt be like next season? He has shown some great improvement over the last month plus we got Amile back I assume plus our great recruiting class and all our guards returning (Grayson I'm watching you!).

uh_no
03-19-2016, 09:22 PM
We beat a team so bad in the first half that we could afford to play defense the whole second half. If you don't know what championship basketball is - you saw it tonight...

K has a method. Sometimes it kills us but remember - damn near all of his championship wins have been down to the wire. He prepares the team for this.

I may not know much, but I'd bet a lot that nearly blowing a 20-whatever point lead was not part of the game plan....and if the plan was to ONLY play defense in the second half, we did a piss-poor job of it anyway, giving up a toasty 39 points.

You can rationalize it all you want, but the second half of that game did not go according to ANYONE's plan...least of all K's.

Yeah I'm sure positive things come out of it for the team...you can always learn more from a close game than from a blowout...because there's more to work on...and the team showed a lot adjusting to avoid it getting REALLY close...

Further, of course all of his championship wins will be close. the teams that play in april are usually really good...so the amount of blowouts you see will be far lower than a random game during the season.

TNTDevil
03-19-2016, 09:23 PM
~snip~
However! I do think Matt was a huuge reason that that kid (sorry forgot his name) was shutdown. The announcers even pointed it out. Matt was all up in his face and fighting through screens.Two of Matt's "fouls" were picked-up when he was attempting run-through screens only to be dragged by the moving screener.

fan345678
03-19-2016, 09:23 PM
I seem to remember a lot of Matt-bashing between last year's Utah and Gonzaga games.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1wd0Hbu6NY

Well, shoot...that video didn't show much of Matt's great night. Still, he does his job on D and can certainly come through on O when the game comes to him.

NM Duke Fan
03-19-2016, 09:25 PM
Chase is now a legitimate part of the rotation, and has made some healthy contributions as of late. I am very happy we have a 7 man rotation. Last year 8 is enough, this year seven is sufficient?

SupaDave
03-19-2016, 09:25 PM
I may not know much, but I'd bet a lot that nearly blowing a 20-whatever point lead was not part of the game plan...and if the plan was to ONLY play defense in the second half, we did a piss-poor job of it anyway, giving up a toasty 39 points.

You can rationalize it all you want, but the second half of that game did not go according to ANYONE's plan...least of all K's.

Yeah I'm sure positive things come out of it for the team...you can always learn more from a close game than from a blowout...because there's more to work on...and the team showed a lot adjusting to avoid it getting REALLY close...

Further, of course all of his championship wins will be close. the teams that play in april are usually really good...so the amount of blowouts you see will be far lower than a random game during the season.

But you're here for the wins right?

uh_no
03-19-2016, 09:27 PM
But you're here for the wins right?

I'm not sure I read your meaning.

JNort
03-19-2016, 09:27 PM
I seem to remember a lot of Matt-bashing between last year's Utah and Gonzaga games.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1wd0Hbu6NY

Yeah and he also played "his game". As long as he does that I'm happy. Do you wanna see Plum3 start shooting hooks, up and unders and fades in the post? No of course not because that's not him. He goes for putbacks and open dunks because it's what he's good at. Let the offense flow through Brandon and Grayson with Luke and DT playing the role of ball handlers while Matt spots up for 3. When we do that it allows Matt to conserve his energy and hustle for defense on the opposing teams best player which in turn gives Grason a bit of rest

Bob Green
03-19-2016, 09:32 PM
I'm not sure I read your meaning.

Yeah, that one went over my head as well. Hey SupaDave, try again in plain language.

fan345678
03-19-2016, 09:35 PM
Yeah and he also played "his game". As long as he does that I'm happy. Do you wanna see Plum3 start shooting hooks, up and unders and fades in the post? No of course not because that's not him. He goes for putbacks and open dunks because it's what he's good at. Let the offense flow through Brandon and Grayson with Luke and DT playing the role of ball handlers while Matt spots up for 3. When we do that it allows Matt to conserve his energy and hustle for defense on the opposing teams best player which in turn gives Grason a bit of rest

Good points. The Gonzaga game came to Matt, and he was fantastic. He's had a few instances of slashes and drives in big games (@UVa last year, and I seem to recall one vs. Wisconsin), but yeah...when he tried to drive against two guys today and committed a charge while Grayson was open on the wing...there's no need for that

Sixthman
03-19-2016, 09:41 PM
Chase is now a legitimate part of the rotation, and has made some healthy contributions as of late. I am very happy we have a 7 man rotation. Last year 8 is enough, this year seven is sufficient?

I agree. Chase is improving a lot. He was effective today and while I don't see him picking up playing the down the stretch I see him ready to play when needed. Foul trouble scares me far less than even three weeks ago.

Bluegrassdevil1
03-19-2016, 09:49 PM
I suspect that the importance/hindrances that M. Jones brings to the Duke team can be summed up in the following ways:

Does the current squad have 25 wins without M. Jones?

Nope.

Does the Duke program have a fifth banner hanging in CIS without M. Jones?

Nope.

As far as I am concerned, M. Jones can sit at center court next week, waving at opposing players as they pass by, and he will still have done FAR more good than bad for Duke.

M. Jones is not an all-time great basketball player, but he has had two leg injuries this season, and all he has done is "keep on, keeping on", and I believe that is beyond what any rationale person should ask of him.

Saratoga2
03-19-2016, 09:49 PM
Two things happened which I enjoyed immensely today.

1. Duke advanced to the sweet 16
2. Kentucky did not. Calipari and his Kentucky boys get to watch.

GGLC
03-19-2016, 09:56 PM
I suspect that the importance/hindrances that M. Jones brings to the Duke team can be summed up in the following ways:

Does the current squad have 25 wins without M. Jones?

Nope.

Does the Duke program have a fifth banner hanging in CIS without M. Jones?

Nope.

As far as I am concerned, M. Jones can sit at center court next week, waving at opposing players as they pass by, and he will still have done FAR more good than bad for Duke.

M. Jones is not an all-time great basketball player, but he has had two leg injuries this season, and all he has done is "keep on, keeping on", and I believe that is beyond what any rationale person should ask of him.

Very well-put.

Troublemaker
03-19-2016, 09:58 PM
Two things happened which I enjoyed immensely today.

1. Duke advanced to the sweet 16
2. Kentucky did not. Calipari and his Kentucky boys get to watch.

Same here. Somehow, I think like 90% of DBR was rooting for Kentucky, though. :confused:

Sixthman
03-19-2016, 09:59 PM
Pretty unpleasant, but there were far more very positive plays for Duke in the last ten minutes than I remembered. This was a good win.

JNort
03-19-2016, 10:02 PM
Same here. Somehow, I think like 90% of DBR was rooting for Kentucky, though. :confused:

I was pulling for UK cause I hate UNC more and UK is a tougher matchup for them than IU is.

Jarhead
03-19-2016, 10:02 PM
Same here. Somehow, I think like 90% of DBR was rooting for Kentucky, though. :confused:Not me. I never root for Kentucky, nor uNC.

Sixthman
03-19-2016, 10:06 PM
Pretty unpleasant, but there were far more very positive plays for Duke in the last ten minutes than I remembered. This was a good win.

BTW -- There was a occasion in the second half where a Yale player grabbed BRANDON from behind to stop a break away lay up. It was no big deal, but worse than the jersey pulling by GA which resulted in replay review and a flagrant 1. I have seen this play four times in the tournament NOT COUNTING END OF GAME INTENTIONAL FOULING and have seen no flagrant fouls and heard no commentators complaining. This is a double standard which is really nothing more than a wholly unfair harassment of a great competitor and decent kid.

75Crazie
03-19-2016, 10:12 PM
Two things happened which I enjoyed immensely today.

1. Duke advanced to the sweet 16
2. Kentucky did not. Calipari and his Kentucky boys get to watch.
The trifecta would be a Cheater loss. Come on Friars!

Doria
03-19-2016, 10:37 PM
That tailor must offer volume discounts for Cheats - Old Roy has a curious relationship with men's fashion as well.

Yeah, Thursday's jacket looked like it was stolen from Roy's own closet (or cut directly from the couch). Today's looks like it might have begun life as some of that natural fiber wallpaper.

Furniture
03-19-2016, 10:41 PM
https://vine.co/v/idgBrODq1q1

Newton_14
03-19-2016, 10:41 PM
I was pulling for UK cause I hate UNC more and UK is a tougher matchup for them than IU is. I was doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason. Let's hope Providence makes it a moot point.

And, maybe you and I were wrong and Indiana is 1. better than UK and 2. Have a better chance to beat the cheats than UK did.

Indiana did look good today.

GGLC
03-19-2016, 10:58 PM
I think you mean a moo point.

It's like a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter. It's moo.

Newton_14
03-19-2016, 11:00 PM
I think you mean a moo point.

It's like a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter. It's moo.

Well, at least I did not say "mute" point. :)

And Go Friars!!!

devildeac
03-19-2016, 11:05 PM
The 1-3-1 was great... Brandon needs to do a better job of selling/drawing contact on his drives

Blood? A fracture or dislocation? What do you think it'll take?

(Kidding. Sort of.)

camion
03-19-2016, 11:05 PM
I think you mean a moo point.

It's like a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter. It's moo.

Yep. Friends.

tfk53
03-19-2016, 11:34 PM
Listening to post-game presser, GA and BI mentioned how they had not come back together to halt Notre Dame's run in ACCT but that they were able to do so today. I take this as a sign of growth. Hope that it carries into the next round.
K talked about how GA was in "La-LA land" at end of 1st half - not getting back to play D after making that last 3 and then having a silly foul.
BI said he took 100 foul shots yesterday at practice - coming from Coach Scheyer - at the same rim he took them at end of today's game. made 65 in a row at one point. More growth.
Whether this growth is enough to get them to Elite 8 or further, I am very impressed with these young men and their progress through the season. It is a pleasure to cheer for them.

GGLC
03-19-2016, 11:35 PM
Yep. Friends.

I don't know why that has stuck with me a these years. Great writing.

JohnJ
03-19-2016, 11:59 PM
I am hesitant to jump in to the debate about Matt but when I checked the box score for the first half Matt only played 9 minutes.

But I agree that when Matt was in, he was doing a great job on Mason.

DukieInKansas
03-20-2016, 12:26 AM
I hate that the tournament is during busy season. I chose to work and watch the game when I got home at 8pm. I started pacing with 5 minutes left in the game. The 2nd half wasn't pretty but it is still a W. Hope they learn some things to take into the next 2 game tournament.

Let's Go, Duke!

ncexnyc
03-20-2016, 12:46 AM
Earlier this year I wrote that Matt is our most polarizing player since Tyler Thornton, I still stand by that comment. Just like Tyler, many on here don't appreciate the dirty work that Matt does for this team, because it doesn't show up in the box score.

I understand that many of us on this forum are tantalized by Luke's stroke and Derryck's quickness, however both are freshman who have their ups and downs. Ask yourself this question and try to answer it honestly. If Winslow and Jones came back this year, how much playing time would either of these kids had?

eddiehaskell
03-20-2016, 12:56 AM
I know it's a little taboo to say, but could the next game totally change how we remember this team? After losing our best big man and energy guy, many of us started questioning whether we would even make the tournament (especially after a 3 game skid). 26 wins/elite 8/beating UNC despite losing Amile = great season?

And wow, just imagine this team with seniors MP3 and Amile both refusing to go out.

Troublemaker
03-20-2016, 03:46 AM
I guess K and staff just have to decide whether his offensive liabilities outweigh his defensive benefits. It seems to be a fine line (or even an art) when evaluating the overall impact. As many of you have noted, K and staff have made their opinion known by keeping him in the game, even if it is to the team's offensive detriment. So be it.

Offensive liability and detriment? Geez, I would agree that Matt probably had his worst game of the season yesterday, but that is NOT the norm.

Just one game ago, he chipped in 12 points, including shooting 2-4 from three, against UNC-W. Two games ago, he scored 13 points, including shooting 3-5 from three, against Notre Dame. He actually had an all-around great game against the Irish because he was very disruptive in the zone we played and also performed well in other areas (3 steals, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 turnovers).

Matt usually is NOT an "offensive liability" or "detriment."


what's the opportunity cost of playing him?

I think you've asked this before so allow me to answer. Here are two Duke guards (stats are from kenpom's player pages):

Guard A

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 118, an effective FG% of 53%, including shooting 41% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 105, an effective FG% of 50%, including shooting 38% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 114, an eFG% of 50%, including 40% from three


Guard B

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 98, an effective FG% of 45%, including 33% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 84, an effective FG% of 41%, including 30% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 88, an eFG% of 45%, including 29% from three

As you probably suspect, Guard A is Matt, and those are very efficient offensive numbers. Although, by the way people talk about Matt around here, you'd think he's Guard B with the poor offensive efficiency numbers. But nope. As you might suspect, Guard B is Derryck.

Look, the bottom line is Matt hits threes. And that's what we need to complement Grayson, Brandon, and Luke, who handle most of the creating on this team. Like others, I don't enjoy Matt's forays to the basket that usually end poorly, but he performs those seldom enough that overall, he posts very efficient offensive numbers. An ORating of 118 (or 114 against top 50 competition) is perfect for a 4th-option on a team (and sometimes 5th option if we're playing a game where the dumpoff to MP3 is available.)

Matt's not at all the offensive mess you make him out to be, in other words. The Yale game is a fluke. And the "opportunity cost" posts much less efficient numbers than Matt.

jv001
03-20-2016, 07:19 AM
Offensive liability and detriment? Geez, I would agree that Matt probably had his worst game of the season yesterday, but that is NOT the norm.

Just one game ago, he chipped in 12 points, including shooting 2-4 from three, against UNC-W. Two games ago, he scored 13 points, including shooting 3-5 from three, against Notre Dame. He actually had an all-around great game against the Irish because he was very disruptive in the zone we played and also performed well in other areas (3 steals, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 turnovers).

Matt usually is NOT an "offensive liability" or "detriment."



I think you've asked this before so allow me to answer. Here are two Duke guards (stats are from kenpom's player pages):

Guard A

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 118, an effective FG% of 53%, including shooting 41% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 105, an effective FG% of 50%, including shooting 38% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 114, an eFG% of 50%, including 40% from three


Guard B

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 98, an effective FG% of 45%, including 33% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 84, an effective FG% of 41%, including 30% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 88, an eFG% of 45%, including 29% from three

As you probably suspect, Guard A is Matt, and those are very efficient offensive numbers. Although, by the way people talk about Matt around here, you'd think he's Guard B with the poor offensive efficiency numbers. But nope. As you might suspect, Guard B is Derryck.

Look, the bottom line is Matt hits threes. And that's what we need to complement Grayson, Brandon, and Luke, who handle most of the creating on this team. Like others, I don't enjoy Matt's forays to the basket that usually end poorly, but he performs those seldom enough that overall, he posts very efficient offensive numbers. An ORating of 118 (or 114 against top 50 competition) is perfect for a 4th-option on a team (and sometimes 5th option if we're playing a game where the dumpoff to MP3 is available.)

Matt's not at all the offensive mess you make him out to be, in other words. The Yale game is a fluke. And the "opportunity cost" posts much less efficient numbers than Matt.

The last I'm posting on the Matt Jones arguments. Matt is a valuable player for Duke. He's a good to great defender depending on his health. He's good on offense when he's not asked to handle the ball in pressure situations. That's all I'm saying and GoDuke and GoMatt!

Devilwin
03-20-2016, 07:23 AM
My take.
Brandon took over, but it seemed to me the other guys were standing around on offense watching him.
Thornton needs to penetrate more, shoot threes less.
Grayson seems to get a bit reckless at times with the ball, but he's a high octane player, expect that from him. Not our most talented, but in fact our BEST player.
Matt may well be bothered by that ankle still. He's better than he's played of late. Streaky shooter, but don't count him not being able to nail 3 or 4 threes we need to break a big game open. He's done it before.
Luke was gonna have a great game, I thought, then he quit shooting. Don't get that.
We lost focus. Someone said we need to never let up when we have a team down. I agree 100%. This has been a problem for other Duke teams in the past, but it is more so with this young bunch.

All in all, happy with the Sweet 16 from this team that battled adversity all year. Losing Jefferson really hurt our rebounding and inside game obviously.
With him, I believe we would have won 3-5 more games at the least, maybe more.
All that being said, I see no reason we can't move on. We did beat two teams that were number one seeds, did we not?
Survive and advance....

Papa John
03-20-2016, 07:49 AM
Or at least have him call the Cheats game....

CBS considered this, but they were too worried that he might call a media timeout when they had none left. ;)

Saratoga2
03-20-2016, 08:03 AM
We beat a team so bad in the first half that we could afford to play defense the whole second half. If you don't know what championship basketball is - you saw it tonight...

K has a method. Sometimes it kills us but remember - damn near all of his championship wins have been down to the wire. He prepares the team for this.

We played defense in the second half, but it was bad defense.

Saratoga2
03-20-2016, 08:14 AM
Offensive liability and detriment? Geez, I would agree that Matt probably had his worst game of the season yesterday, but that is NOT the norm.

Just one game ago, he chipped in 12 points, including shooting 2-4 from three, against UNC-W. Two games ago, he scored 13 points, including shooting 3-5 from three, against Notre Dame. He actually had an all-around great game against the Irish because he was very disruptive in the zone we played and also performed well in other areas (3 steals, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 turnovers).

Matt usually is NOT an "offensive liability" or "detriment."



I think you've asked this before so allow me to answer. Here are two Duke guards (stats are from kenpom's player pages):

Guard A

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 118, an effective FG% of 53%, including shooting 41% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 105, an effective FG% of 50%, including shooting 38% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 114, an eFG% of 50%, including 40% from three


Guard B

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 98, an effective FG% of 45%, including 33% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 84, an effective FG% of 41%, including 30% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 88, an eFG% of 45%, including 29% from three

As you probably suspect, Guard A is Matt, and those are very efficient offensive numbers. Although, by the way people talk about Matt around here, you'd think he's Guard B with the poor offensive efficiency numbers. But nope. As you might suspect, Guard B is Derryck.

Look, the bottom line is Matt hits threes. And that's what we need to complement Grayson, Brandon, and Luke, who handle most of the creating on this team. Like others, I don't enjoy Matt's forays to the basket that usually end poorly, but he performs those seldom enough that overall, he posts very efficient offensive numbers. An ORating of 118 (or 114 against top 50 competition) is perfect for a 4th-option on a team (and sometimes 5th option if we're playing a game where the dumpoff to MP3 is available.)

Matt's not at all the offensive mess you make him out to be, in other words. The Yale game is a fluke. And the "opportunity cost" posts much less efficient numbers than Matt.

You fail to mention that guard A has two sore ankles that have slowed his game down. I am hoping that a few days will help in his recovery process and bring him closer to his normal form. Clearly he is not playing at his top performance level and I am hoping some rest will restore a lot of what we know Matt can do.

Saratoga2
03-20-2016, 08:20 AM
My take.
Brandon took over, but it seemed to me the other guys were standing around on offense watching him.
Thornton needs to penetrate more, shoot threes less.
Grayson seems to get a bit reckless at times with the ball, but he's a high octane player, expect that from him. Not our most talented, but in fact our BEST player.
Matt may well be bothered by that ankle still. He's better than he's played of late. Streaky shooter, but don't count him not being able to nail 3 or 4 threes we need to break a big game open. He's done it before.
Luke was gonna have a great game, I thought, then he quit shooting. Don't get that.
We lost focus. Someone said we need to never let up when we have a team down. I agree 100%. This has been a problem for other Duke teams in the past, but it is more so with this young bunch.

All in all, happy with the Sweet 16 from this team that battled adversity all year. Losing Jefferson really hurt our rebounding and inside game obviously.
With him, I believe we would have won 3-5 more games at the least, maybe more.
All that being said, I see no reason we can't move on. We did beat two teams that were number one seeds, did we not?
Survive and advance...

It is pretty clear to me that coach K told the guys to go pro style and let Brandon do the scoring. If he is well guarded, it then falls on Grayson to score for us. The other guys are the facilitators. It sort of works due to the skill level of our best players but leaves the rest of our players tentative. I also thought Luke was having a very good offensive game and that he should have taken what came his way, but I doubt if coach K is encouraging that.

JNort
03-20-2016, 09:16 AM
Offensive liability and detriment? Geez, I would agree that Matt probably had his worst game of the season yesterday, but that is NOT the norm.

Just one game ago, he chipped in 12 points, including shooting 2-4 from three, against UNC-W. Two games ago, he scored 13 points, including shooting 3-5 from three, against Notre Dame. He actually had an all-around great game against the Irish because he was very disruptive in the zone we played and also performed well in other areas (3 steals, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 turnovers).

Matt usually is NOT an "offensive liability" or "detriment."



I think you've asked this before so allow me to answer. Here are two Duke guards (stats are from kenpom's player pages):

Guard A

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 118, an effective FG% of 53%, including shooting 41% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 105, an effective FG% of 50%, including shooting 38% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 114, an eFG% of 50%, including 40% from three


Guard B

For the entire season, an offensive rating of 98, an effective FG% of 45%, including 33% from three
In ACC games, an offensive rating of 84, an effective FG% of 41%, including 30% from three
Against top 50 competition, an offensive rating of 88, an eFG% of 45%, including 29% from three

As you probably suspect, Guard A is Matt, and those are very efficient offensive numbers. Although, by the way people talk about Matt around here, you'd think he's Guard B with the poor offensive efficiency numbers. But nope. As you might suspect, Guard B is Derryck.

Look, the bottom line is Matt hits threes. And that's what we need to complement Grayson, Brandon, and Luke, who handle most of the creating on this team. Like others, I don't enjoy Matt's forays to the basket that usually end poorly, but he performs those seldom enough that overall, he posts very efficient offensive numbers. An ORating of 118 (or 114 against top 50 competition) is perfect for a 4th-option on a team (and sometimes 5th option if we're playing a game where the dumpoff to MP3 is available.)

Matt's not at all the offensive mess you make him out to be, in other words. The Yale game is a fluke. And the "opportunity cost" posts much less efficient numbers than Matt.
I think you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. Nobody disagrees with what you just said. We just don't like that yesterday Matt tried to play outside of what he is capable. Just like DT gets bashed when he takes a bunch of threes, or Grayson when he throws up prayers. Like I said previously what Matt was doing yesterday was the equivalent to Plum3 taking mid range jumpers, trying post fades and up and unders instead of dunking on open shots and putbacks.

Also your guard a vs b argument is very flawed. More goes into it than raw numbers. For example DT's ability to handle the ball against pressure which is why most wanted him in over Matt at the end against that press. Nobody is saying Matt can't shoot and DT can but rather they have different skill sets and we needed DT's more at that moment

Durham Blue Devil
03-20-2016, 09:22 AM
You fail to mention that guard A has two sore ankles that have slowed his game down. I am hoping that a few days will help in his recovery process and bring him closer to his normal form. Clearly he is not playing at his top performance level and I am hoping some rest will restore a lot of what we know Matt can do.

One point I may have missed but have not seen mentioned is how poor Matt is in terms of rebounding. He is the second lowest on the team in rebounds per 40 minutes just slightly above Thornton (3.2 per 40 min vs 2.9 per 40 min). Recently he had zero rebounds in consecutive games and had one yesterday. It really is hard to understand why he is so poor at rebounding, but when he is in the game it is the equivalent of 4 against 5 in team rebounding. By comparison, Allen averages 5.0 per 40 min and Kennard averages 5.1 rebounds per 40 min. Prior to the game, Matt was quoted in the N & O prior that defense is all about effort and wanting it more when asked about Yale being a good rebounding team and it being a key to the game. For a team that is undersized and struggles to rebound, team rebounding is hugely important.

Matt is an important part of this team, a leader, a captain, a guy that is needed for minutes, the first person the press goes to for an honest quote postgame, and when healthy, our best perimeter defender. I do wish he would recognize his limitations in terms of his inability to drive and finish in the lane. It is painful to watch and usually results in a turnover or a low percentage shot. Yesterday was obviously one of his poorest games in terms of decision making and overall play despite some solid defense on two bad ankles. I am constantly defending him from my other Duke fan friends as an important piece of the team as a whole, but yesterday was a game where we were a better team with him not in the game for a multitude of reasons and poor rebounding ability was one of the reasons. Here's to hoping that another week of rest will help his ankles.

superdave
03-20-2016, 09:23 AM
Not sure what kind of career you wanted for Grant but he's gotta do Lebron James, Kobe numbers to out do Grant...

Grant essentially missed 3-4 year of his prime. I'd like those years back because there is like an MVP in there. He is a borderline hall of famer, but would have been a sure bet if not for the Detroit injury. Also, Brandon shoots the 3 well, which Grant did not do and is where the league is now.

BD80
03-20-2016, 09:49 AM
Two things happened which I enjoyed immensely today.

1. Duke advanced to the sweet 16
2. Kentucky did not. Calipari and his Kentucky boys get to watch.

What kind of person would root for a group of kids to fail?

Seriously, tell me. Because I was right there with you.

I nearly always feel bad for the kids who lose in the tournament. Not the Ky kids, though. I think it is because, in my opinion, they are not there for the college experience. cal makes no pretense that uk is anything but the NBA D league with cheerleaders and perks.


Same here. Somehow, I think like 90% of DBR was rooting for Kentucky, though. :confused:

I tried to root for uk, I really did. But I found myself rooting for IU. Frankly, I think they have a better chance against the heels. Better coaching, more discipline.

Furniture
03-20-2016, 10:08 AM
I'll say this.
First of all the team won yesterday and that team included Matt.
I will also say that Matt has fouled out the last two games which seems a little strange to me I mean it's not like we haven't played some tough games during the season so what would be unusual about the last two? The tournament? Maybe it is his ankles?
One more thing. The line up of Luke, DT, Marshall, Brandon and Grayson is potentionally very scintillating as I think we saw at times yesterday. If DT and Luke are playing to full potential could it be our best line up?

BD80
03-20-2016, 10:41 AM
Matt is a critical part of the team, we will REALLY need him if we play Oklahoma and Buddy Hield.

I am often critical of Matt because of his offensive limitations, but if Coach K plays him, I am certain he deserves it.

One other thing jumps (excuse the expression) out at me, is Matt's lack of rebounds. Only Brennan Besser, who failed to get a rebound in his one minute of play this season, has fewer rebounds per minute than Matt. I don't see Matt blocking out his man enabling MP3 or Brandon collect rebounds, in fact, weak side rebounds are a glaring weakness for the team.

Indoor66
03-20-2016, 11:09 AM
Matt is a critical part of the team, we will REALLY need him if we play Oklahoma and Buddy Hield.

I am often critical of Matt because of his offensive limitations, but if Coach K plays him, I am certain he deserves it.

One other thing jumps (excuse the expression) out at me, is Matt's lack of rebounds. Only Brennan Besser, who failed to get a rebound in his one minute of play this season, has fewer rebounds per minute than Matt. I don't see Matt blocking out his man enabling MP3 or Brandon collect rebounds, in fact, weak side rebounds are a glaring weakness for the team.

Is it possible that Matt's instructions are to stay with his assigned man and not leave him to seek rebounds? He does draw the opponents best perimeter player and would have to leave that player to be in position to rebound. One cannot be all things or in all places.

Ultrarunner
03-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Is it possible that Matt's instructions are to stay with his assigned man and not leave him to seek rebounds? He does draw the opponents best perimeter player and would have to leave that player to be in position to rebound. One cannot be all things or in all places.

I think it's pretty likely - he's usually guarding the best shooter and, as Duke fans know from experience, the kick-out three pointer is a soul-killer. The 2010 team with Zoubs is a case in point.

gumbomoop
03-20-2016, 11:35 AM
... Matt has fouled out the last two games which seems a little strange to me I mean it's not like we haven't played some tough games during the season so what would be unusual about the last two? The tournament? Maybe it is his ankles?

In the Yale in-game thread, I criticized Matt for what I perceived as 3 silly fouls. My point was not that Matt should play less. Rather, of course he needs and deserves to play major minutes but can't if he's on the bench because of unnecessary fouls. IIRC, after 2 of the fouls Matt reacted in such a way as to recognize that he had messed up. He knows we're thin, he knows he's essential, he knows occasionally he'll get called for a foul on a debatable call anyway, so he knows he can't afford unnecessary fouls. He messed up yesterday, and knew it. We overcame it, and other things.

I assume he's fighting through the ankle injuries, but that his somewhat limited mobility is affecting his movement, which in turn leads to fouls he would otherwise not commit. As an excellent defender, he guards fiercely and closely, so maybe regularly this season he's been on the edge of foul trouble. Every play is magnified now.

Can a defender as committed as Matt consciously determine not to commit silly fouls and follow through on this determination? Do players just forget, in the chaos or passion of a game, to do what they know they must do? [Or must not do, such as fouling the 3-pt jump shooter.] Same goes for Marshall. They know they're not an excellent defensive team, so Matt's not being in foul trouble is crucial. Marshall's size, strength, rebounding, blocks are crucial, too, so any dumb fouls by Marshall are, well, dumb.

As for Matt's handle, even he has publicly stated he was surprised when Krzyzewski told him he'd be bringing the ball up and initiating the offense. He isn't actually being asked to be the PG; it's more that he's sometimes giving Grayson and Brandon a few seconds of "rest" early in the O. I'd have to guess that going forward in the tourney, he'd attempt to drive only if he can't get the ball to Grayson, Brandon, or Luke late in the shot clock. Occasionally during the season he'd surprise with a clever drive or a floater. But either his ankles or exhaustion make such moments unlikely now. If he can still surprise opponents by pulling off a nifty drive, good. If he tries but just can't physically do it, not good. The odds don't appear to be in his favor.

Troublemaker
03-20-2016, 11:46 AM
I think you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. Nobody disagrees with what you just said.

Actually, there's an assortment or potpourri of Matt criticism. I picked out what I thought was one of the harsher ones, and my post directly responded to it. If you don't personally disagree with what I wrote, then that's good.

I do think there are a certain amount of Duke fans who believe Matt is a flat-out bad offensive player. But, it's really hard to be a bad offensive player when you can hit threes. If someone can hit threes, he just needs to have a low turnover rate and ensure that most of the shots he takes are three-point attempts to become a good offensive role player. For Matt, both things are true. He has a low 12.6% turnover rate and 60% of his shots are three-point attempts. (We would all love to see him get that number up to 75%, I think. [Insert joke about how it needs to be 100%.])

Troublemaker
03-20-2016, 11:59 AM
Is it possible that Matt's instructions are to stay with his assigned man and not leave him to seek rebounds? He does draw the opponents best perimeter player and would have to leave that player to be in position to rebound. One cannot be all things or in all places.

Matt's rebounding numbers have definitely tailed off this season. Here are his frosh, soph, and junior year rebounding rates.

Freshman: 5.5% offensive rebounding rate, 8.4% defensive rebounding rate

Sophomore: 5.1% offensive rebounding rate, 7.5% defensive rebounding rate

Junior: 3.7% offensive rebounding rate, 5.1% defensive rebounding rate

The drop in defensive rebounding could be attributed to guarding PGs more often than his first two years, I believe. I'm not sure about the drop in offensive rebounding, but I would like to see that skill return. Last season, Matt was actually sneaky good in ACC play at grabbing offensive boards, getting them at a rate of 8.2%, which was a factor in Duke's 15-3 run through the ACC regular season. Once the coaches determined that Duke's best lineup would have Justise at the 4 instead of Amile, our guys needed to pick up the rebounding slack with Amile then in a reserve role. Justise picked up the slack on the defensive boards, and Matt picked it up on the offensive boards. It was nice synergy that occurred, something that happens on championship teams.

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2016, 12:35 PM
If this team somehow puts together a full 40 minutes look out. With the big injury to Amile and playing a 6 man rotation most of the year I am really happy with a Sweet 16 berth. I think Duke can make the Elite 8 regardless of who they play next and hopefully getting the big leads against Yale and Notre Dame will teach them how to play better with a big lead later in the tournament like say Monday night against UNC. :)

wilson
03-20-2016, 12:39 PM
...Monday night against UNC. :)I want no part of this, ever. I do not imagine that I would handle that in a healthy way at all.

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2016, 12:42 PM
I want no part of this, ever. I do not imagine that I would handle that in a healthy way at all.

I don't either even with a loaded Duke team hence the smiley face.

JNort
03-20-2016, 12:47 PM
Actually, there's an assortment or potpourri of Matt criticism. I picked out what I thought was one of the harsher ones, and my post directly responded to it. If you don't personally disagree with what I wrote, then that's good.

I do think there are a certain amount of Duke fans who believe Matt is a flat-out bad offensive player. But, it's really hard to be a bad offensive player when you can hit threes. If someone can hit threes, he just needs to have a low turnover rate and ensure that most of the shots he takes are three-point attempts to become a good offensive role player. For Matt, both things are true. He has a low 12.6% turnover rate and 60% of his shots are three-point attempts. (We would all love to see him get that number up to 75%, I think. [Insert joke about how it needs to be 100%.])

I was going off of who you quoted in your post. I have read through this entire thread and haven't seen any negative post on Matt I can out right disagree with. Some are just not liking when we say he has offensive limitations (and he does!!!). If he isn't standing waiting for a 3 point shot then he us usually harming the team on offense, not always of course cause he still has his flashes every now and then on drives but it's not something you want to see him attempting regularly. I haven't seen one person on here say he isn't a great spot up shooter and defender, it's the other things he was doing this past game we didn't like.

GGLC
03-20-2016, 02:32 PM
If you haven't seen one person say that they don't think Matt is a great defender, you've definitely skipped over some posts. Multiple people say that with some regularity.

And the focus on Matt's offense is pretty funny to me when Luke, Brandon, and Grayson each took a number of TERRIBLE, low-percentage shots yesterday. Over the last five games or so, Grayson in particular has gotten into the habit of throwing something up at the basket, often off-balance and in traffic, and hoping it hits when there are many better options available.

devildeac
03-20-2016, 02:47 PM
I think some enterprising Duke grad should open his own brewery and offer beverages like Too Damn Close, We Get All The Calls, Rebound the @#$%&$# Ball, Oh No/Oh Yes!, I Need A Cardiologist, High ABV Better/Safer Than Booze, OAD (IBU=120 and ABV=20%), Flagrant 1 Bastard, Flagrant 2 Bastard, The 4 Year Big Beer Project, Need More (or Less) Zone and...

The Next Hated White Beer.

slower
03-20-2016, 02:49 PM
As the person to whom (I think) Troublemaker originally replied, let me paste my earlier statement:

"But he shouldn't be running the offense or bringing the ball up the court when DT, Grayson, Brandon and Luke are ALL more skilled at doing these things. I'm sorry, but Matt just bogs down the offense. And if he's injured or not paying dividends on the defensive end, what's the opportunity cost of playing him?"

I'll stand by those statements. It's not meant to be an indictment of Matt. He's obviously injured (note that my statement is conditional - "...if he's injured..."). And if he's just doing what K is asking him to do, so be it. As others have said, if he's going to look for spot-up threes, great. Anything beyond that (at least, in his current, injured condition) is risky.

fidel
03-20-2016, 02:57 PM
I think some enterprising Duke grad should open his own brewery and offer beverages like Too Damn Close, We Get All The Calls, Rebound the @#$%&$# Ball, Oh No/Oh Yes!, I Need A Cardiologist, High ABV Better/Safer Than Booze, OAD (IBU=120 and ABV=20%), Flagrant 1 Bastard, Flagrant 2 Bastard, The 4 Year Big Beer Project, Need More (or Less) Zone and...

The Next Hated White Beer.

Love it. Gone in 60 Seconds Turtle-free Session Ale.

cspan37421
03-20-2016, 03:34 PM
The Next Hated White Beer.

Aren't they all hated? Oh wait, you said white beer. I thought you said light beer. :)

NSDukeFan
03-20-2016, 03:41 PM
As the person to whom (I think) Troublemaker originally replied, let me paste my earlier statement:

"But he shouldn't be running the offense or bringing the ball up the court when DT, Grayson, Brandon and Luke are ALL more skilled at doing these things. I'm sorry, but Matt just bogs down the offense. And if he's injured or not paying dividends on the defensive end, what's the opportunity cost of playing him?"

I'll stand by those statements. It's not meant to be an indictment of Matt. He's obviously injured (note that my statement is conditional - "...if he's injured..."). And if he's just doing what K is asking him to do, so be it. As others have said, if he's going to look for spot-up threes, great. Anything beyond that (at least, in his current, injured condition) is risky.
And MP3/should never make a post move. Hairston and Lance Thomas should never shoot a jump shot. I agree with your idea that players need to know their limitations, but c'mon, Matt's a solid veteran who may shoot a slightly lower percentage on drives than his teammates, but considering most of his shots are spot up 3s and he doesn't turn the ball over much, let's let him play and keep the defense honest with the odd drive.

CameronBlue
03-20-2016, 03:52 PM
As the person to whom (I think) Troublemaker originally replied, let me paste my earlier statement:

"But he shouldn't be running the offense or bringing the ball up the court when DT, Grayson, Brandon and Luke are ALL more skilled at doing these things. I'm sorry, but Matt just bogs down the offense. And if he's injured or not paying dividends on the defensive end, what's the opportunity cost of playing him?"

I'll stand by those statements. It's not meant to be an indictment of Matt. He's obviously injured (note that my statement is conditional - "...if he's injured..."). And if he's just doing what K is asking him to do, so be it. As others have said, if he's going to look for spot-up threes, great. Anything beyond that (at least, in his current, injured condition) is risky.

My criticism of Matt in another thread was not really intended to be directed at Matt at all. I wasn't suggesting that Matt plays too much but rather DT doesn't play enough particularly when the opposing team is pressing or when Duke's offense inexplicably goes "tractor" (it's a meme) and loses its interior presence and starts jacking up contested threes. In the case of both of ND's comeback and Yale's comeback, DT was on the bench for key stretches of the game during which backcourt ball-handling turnovers resulted adding fuel to the comeback. Yes if DT is playing he's likely been subbed in for either Luke or Matt and whomever it is so be it. At those times DT must be on the court IMHO. I'm not really a fan of publicly criticizing our guys on a BBS (though I've done it several times). My criticism really lies with K and his penchant for subbing in DT somewhere around the 2nd media timeout of each half seemingly irrespective of game conditions. It places others, e.g. Matt in positions where they are not as likely to be successful. Matt at the 4 is a mistake. Luke at the 4 would be a mistake. Similarly I believe Matt at PG spot is also a mistake. Matt excels at certain things, ball-handling is not one of them. The opinion that I've read here several times that Duke doesn't have a point guard is, IMO nonsense. DT is a very capable point guard particularly when it comes to breaking the press and keeping zones honest with his ability to penetrate. K, I'll wait for my answer.

devildeac
03-20-2016, 04:08 PM
Aren't they all hated? Oh wait, you said white beer. I thought you said light beer. :)

I thought about making it light beer but white beer was just too damn easy ;) .

GGLC
03-20-2016, 04:15 PM
My criticism of Matt in another thread was not really intended to be directed at Matt at all. I wasn't suggesting that Matt plays too much but rather DT doesn't play enough particularly when the opposing team is pressing or when Duke's offense inexplicably goes "tractor" (it's a meme) and loses its interior presence and starts jacking up contested threes. In the case of both of ND's comeback and Yale's comeback, DT was on the bench for key stretches of the game during which backcourt ball-handling turnovers resulted adding fuel to the comeback. Yes if DT is playing he's likely been subbed in for either Luke or Matt and whomever it is so be it. At those times DT must be on the court IMHO. I'm not really a fan of publicly criticizing our guys on a BBS (though I've done it several times). My criticism really lies with K and his penchant for subbing in DT somewhere around the 2nd media timeout of each half seemingly irrespective of game conditions. It places others, e.g. Matt in positions where they are not as likely to be successful. Matt at the 4 is a mistake. Luke at the 4 would be a mistake. Similarly I believe Matt at PG spot is also a mistake. Matt excels at certain things, ball-handling is not one of them. The opinion that I've read here several times that Duke doesn't have a point guard is, IMO nonsense. DT is a very capable point guard particularly when it comes to breaking the press and keeping zones honest with his ability to penetrate. K, I'll wait for my answer.

Derryck has way more turnovers/40 minutes than Matt does, by the way.

CameronBlue
03-20-2016, 04:23 PM
Derryck has way more turnovers/40 minutes than Matt does, by the way.

and that's indicative of what exactly...that we should have Matt handling the ball more?

duke09hms
03-20-2016, 04:27 PM
Derryck has way more turnovers/40 minutes than Matt does, by the way.

That stat all by its lonesome doesn't tell us much about who should be should be our primary PG in the tourney.

Derryck's improvement throughout the season.
Matt's gimpy ankles.
How those turnovers occurred - Matt is a cautious game-manager, Derryck is more of a playmaker.
How they individually fare against a press.

are more informative data.

GGLC
03-20-2016, 04:27 PM
and that's indicative of what exactly...that we should have Matt handling the ball more?

No, it's indicative of the fact that Derryck does not necessarily handle pressure consistently well either. You're making Matt out to be some kind of turnover machine, which is false.

duke09hms
03-20-2016, 04:29 PM
No, it's indicative of the fact that Derryck does not necessarily handle pressure consistently well either. You're making Matt out to be some kind of turnover machine, which is false.

This conclusion remains unproven.

GGLC
03-20-2016, 04:30 PM
That stat all by its lonesome doesn't tell us much about who should be should be our primary PG in the tourney.

Derryck's improvement throughout the season.
Matt's gimpy ankles.
How those turnovers occurred - Matt is a cautious game-manager, Derryck is more of a playmaker.
How they individually fare against a press.

are more informative data.

Please show me where I've suggested that Matt should be our primary PG in the tournament. I'm simply saying that people who argue that Derryck should be in the game instead of Matt are advocating for the guy that shoots worse, plays worse defense, and turns the ball over more frequently.

And by the way, it's Kennard who has taken Thornton's spot in the starting lineup, not Matt.

GGLC
03-20-2016, 04:34 PM
This conclusion remains unproven.

What conclusion? This is surpassingly silly.

It is proven that, thus far, Matt Jones has averaged 1.4 turnovers per 40 minutes, and Derryck Thornton has averaged 2.4 turnovers per 40 minutes. I am NOT saying that Matt should be the one bringing the ball up against the press, but a lot of people are letting a few bad possessions yesterday color their perception of someone who has been the heart and soul of this team, contributing in innumerable little ways, and without whom we would not have won a fifth national title last year.

That's a real shame.

JNort
03-20-2016, 04:37 PM
If you haven't seen one person say that they don't think Matt is a great defender, you've definitely skipped over some posts. Multiple people say that with some regularity.

And the focus on Matt's offense is pretty funny to me when Luke, Brandon, and Grayson each took a number of TERRIBLE, low-percentage shots yesterday. Over the last five games or so, Grayson in particular has gotten into the habit of throwing something up at the basket, often off-balance and in traffic, and hoping it hits when there are many better options available.

No you didn't read all of what was said. I in particular have called out his defense. I said since he got hurt his D has been struggling and it has very much. The past couple have been better but guys were just blowing by him on straight drives after the injury. I also still maintain I prefer DT's defense when it goes to guarding opposing teams smaller guards. Matt is fine guarding the bigger guys

JNort
03-20-2016, 04:40 PM
Please show me where I've suggested that Matt should be our primary PG in the tournament. I'm simply saying that people who argue that Derryck should be in the game instead of Matt are advocating for the guy that shoots worse, plays worse defense, and turns the ball over more frequently.

And by the way, it's Kennard who has taken Thornton's spot in the starting lineup, not Matt.

Derryck plays better D, but does shoot worse but we also don't need him to shoot when Ingram, Grayson and Luke are out there, he also handles the ball much more than Matt when he plays so yes he will have more turnovers.

Not sure why everyone keeps arguing and we are all in agreement on the samething!

Indoor66
03-20-2016, 04:41 PM
You guys seem to be drinking too much water. The pissing never stops.

JNort
03-20-2016, 04:42 PM
You guys seem ti be drinking too much water. The pissing never stops.

Yup I'm done. Not saying anything else cause it's obviously not gonna change anything. I will not be coming back into this particular thread after this post.

uh_no
03-20-2016, 04:43 PM
What conclusion? This is surpassingly silly.

It is proven that, thus far, Matt Jones has averaged 1.4 turnovers per 40 minutes, and Derryck Thornton has averaged 2.4 turnovers per 40 minutes. I am NOT saying that Matt should be the one bringing the ball up against the press, but a lot of people are letting a few bad possessions yesterday color their perception of someone who has been the heart and soul of this team, contributing in innumerable little ways, and without whom we would not have won a fifth national title last year.

That's a real shame.

Maybe we should let Grayson post up too...i mean he's the heart and soul of the team this year, contributed phenomenally to the natty win, and without him, we most certainly would not have won.

Point is, just because you make positive contributions in some aspect of the game, and have been hugely important does NOT mean you can make positive contributions in EVERY aspect of the game.

Until now, Matt has not been a primary ball handler. Using "innumerable little" contributions to justify his being a ball handler right now is a terrible argument...it simply doesn't make sense. Ultimately, I probably agree that he's fine with bringing the ball up...but that doesn't mean I agree that your argument is valid.

Matt may not be 100% physically, and there are several bits of evidence that have been presented that indicate his level of play may not be where it has been previously.

Does that mean we're better when he's not on the floor? NO
Does that mean he can't contribute to this team? Of course not.

He was a lock down defender at times last year. You don't just lose that. People realize that here. But we can't evaluate a player's ability based on what they did last year in other aspects of the game...we can only point to what they're doing right now (probabilistic events like made shots aside...).

Matt could be playing better if perhaps he was 100%. I don't think anyone's perception of his contributions is "clouded" by his current play.

GGLC
03-20-2016, 04:54 PM
Where have I said that Matt should post up more? Holy cow; you guys need to stop responding to arguments that I'm not making.

dyedwab
03-20-2016, 04:56 PM
1) We did win, right? Cause the harshness of the debate about Matt Jones seems to belie that fact.

2) That said, our first half - with Luke, Brandon, and Grayson all hot offensively was beautiful to watch, and hadn't happened all year. We are unstoppable with that happens

3) OTOH, our 2nd half was, ummm, not good. which brings me to my next point....

4) Winning a skill you have to learn - figure out who gets the ball in crunch time, understand what to do when the other team radically changes its game plan, know what happens when a team makes a run. Young teams have a really hard time with that - and this team had rarely played with big leads against good teams.

5) We have the most unguardable player on the floor usually in Brandon Ingram. Getting him the ball stabilized us - until foul trouble cost us Marshall and Matt.

6) Officiating is a post season discussion, but it's a discussion that is warranted.

7) I thought making the tournament was a great achievement for this team. Making the Sweet 16 is so, so much sweeter when even getting in to the field of 68 is viewed as an achievement.

slower
03-20-2016, 04:58 PM
Please show me where I've suggested that Matt should be our primary PG in the tournament. I'm simply saying that people who argue that Derryck should be in the game instead of Matt are advocating for the guy that shoots worse, plays worse defense, and turns the ball over more frequently.


In related news, a tomato is technically a fruit. But it sure SEEMS like a vegetable, doesn't it? :p

uh_no
03-20-2016, 05:01 PM
Where have I said that Matt should post up more? Holy cow; you guys need to stop responding to arguments that I'm not making.

I think you completely missed the point of the argument.

Your argument is that Some player A should be allowed to do B because they did C last year.

For your case:
A=Matt Jones
B=Bring the ball up
C= "did little things"

I used a different situation to demonstrate how invalid this argument is...which was
A=grayson allen
B=post up
C=brought us back from the dead against wisconsin.

It's pretty standard first order logic.


I missed the part where anybody anywhere insinuated that you though matt jones should be posting up, and your reply demonstrates how woefully you misunderstood my (and others) arguments concerning matt jones.

CameronBlue
03-20-2016, 05:04 PM
Please show me where I've suggested that Matt should be our primary PG in the tournament. I'm simply saying that people who argue that Derryck should be in the game instead of Matt are advocating for the guy that shoots worse, plays worse defense, and turns the ball over more frequently.

And by the way, it's Kennard who has taken Thornton's spot in the starting lineup, not Matt.

Show me a different statistical measure. Show me the team turnover rate when DT is in the line-up versus when Matt is in the line-up, and if the team turnover rate is less with Matt in the line-up then maybe you'll have an argument. That measure is still apt to be confounded by the fact they usually play different positions and have different responsibilities. I think we have to be careful to not latch onto qualitative impressions and trying to support a point of view with misleading statistics which don't reflect game conditions and different position responsibilities. Someone who handles the ball more is going to have a higher turnover rate in all likelihood. I'm being equally subjective when I point out that Derryck's defense is better than adequate IMO. It certainly sufficed when he preserved the victory over Carolina.

Again I'm not arguing for Matt's playing time to be minimized. Clearly K has confidence in Matt as a defender. I am arguing that when game conditions place a premium on ball handling--dealing with a full-court press, getting the team into its offense against a stiff man to man--DT's involvement in the offense is too important to have him sitting on the bench. If Matt has to sit, yes so be it. If Luke has to sit so be it. Neither player is as strong with the ball as is DT and if you consider that point of view subjectively obstinate you have my permission to be euphorically content in that delusion sir; you have my envy. Duke is a stronger team IMO when Derryck is on the court to help contend with those conditions.

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2016, 05:07 PM
Just a reminder, Duke won and will be playing in the Sweet 16.

CameronBlue
03-20-2016, 05:15 PM
Just a reminder, Duke won and will be playing in the Sweet 16.

GGLMM. (Getting Giddy Losing My Mind.:))

GGLC
03-20-2016, 05:16 PM
I give up. Maybe you guys will get your way and Matt will be benched for the remainder of his Duke career. The temerity of him to give his all for the team while playing on bum ankles. That'll show him.

CameronBlue
03-20-2016, 05:18 PM
I give up. Maybe you guys will get your way and Matt will be benched for the remainder of his Duke career. The temerity of him to give his all for the team while playing on bum ankles. That'll show him.

That's truly funny, but maybe just a tad overstated?

uh_no
03-20-2016, 05:20 PM
I give up. Maybe you guys will get your way and Matt will be benched for the remainder of his Duke career.

YUSSSS!!!! Then we can uncover our ultimate motive...which was to get vrank the tank more playing time!

You should see THAT guy bring the ball up the floor!


(also: false dichotomy and/or straw man)

OldPhiKap
03-20-2016, 05:23 PM
In related news, a tomato is technically a fruit. But it sure SEEMS like a vegetable, doesn't it? :p

Smart: knowing that a tomato is a vegetable.

Wise: not putting tomatoes in a fruit salad.


Oh, and glad we won. Survive and advance. Love Matt's effort.

vick
03-20-2016, 05:31 PM
That stat all by its lonesome doesn't tell us much about who should be should be our primary PG in the tourney.

Derryck's improvement throughout the season.
Matt's gimpy ankles.
How those turnovers occurred - Matt is a cautious game-manager, Derryck is more of a playmaker.
How they individually fare against a press.

are more informative data.

For the record, Matt actually averaged more assists per 40 minutes than Derryck did during ACC play. Derryck is ahead if you consider the season as a whole, but then again, how much do you want to care about performances against Bryant, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Long Beach State vs. the higher-quality teams in ACC play?

duke09hms
03-20-2016, 05:46 PM
For the record, Matt actually averaged more assists per 40 minutes than Derryck did during ACC play. Derryck is ahead if you consider the season as a whole, but then again, how much do you want to care about performances against Bryant, Buffalo, Georgia Southern, and Long Beach State vs. the higher-quality teams in ACC play?

Point taken, and I love having Matt on the team. However, I would figure Derryck has improved the course of the season, and so perhaps season-wide stats might not accurately reflect where they are now. Especially given Matt's bilateral gimpy ankles.

We're also talking about niche roles here. Matt is the quintessential 3-and-D type player, but he's not the guy you want breaking a full-court press or driving into the teeth of the defense. Especially on two bad ankles.

As The Rock said, "KNOW YOUR ROLE!"

Troublemaker
03-20-2016, 06:05 PM
FYI, because I bet some folks don't realize this: In the second half, when the lead went from 54-32 (a 22 point margin; it's a blowout!) to 54-43 (an 11 point margin; oh no, it's a ballgame again!), one Mr. Matthew Jones was NOT on the floor.

Matt had subbed out after picking up his third foul before that run was made by Yale. Check the game log (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2015-16/basketball-m/du0319.htm#GAME.PLY) if you don't believe me.

Now, did Matt play well when he subbed back in? No, he didn't. But, hopefully, Duke fans' memory of this game will NOT be that Coach K blew a 20+ point second-half lead because he stubbornly had Matt Jones handle the ball against pressure all by himself for the entire half until he mercifully fouled out and allowed Duke to win. I bet you that's what they believe on TDD, but hopefully nobody here will remember it that way.

sagegrouse
03-20-2016, 06:07 PM
There are important points in this discussion that need to be raised:

(1) The Elizabeth King Board is a Duke fan site. Although that doesn’t make Duke players and teams sacrosanct, it does mean that they will be defended here when criticized, usually vigorously defended. I mean, where else would they get defended? Sometimes the defense is fairly perfunctory – “player X is having a bad stretch” – and sometimes more heated, as in the case of Matt Jones, who is counted on so heavily for his defensive skills.

(2) Criticism of Duke players is certainly in bounds but should be – ahem – “carefully phrased.” Yes, we do have time here, unlike certain public figures, for “political correctness” with respect to Duke players and teams.

(3) The Elizabeth King Board is an important Duke fan resource and can be a lot of fun. I do know, however, many valuable posters from the past who no longer post here and give us the benefit of their insights. When pressed, they express their concerns about the tone of the site, especially the contentious nature of the interchanges. (Of course, they may have lost all impatience with my posts, and are merely being polite.)

In my view, never humbly expressed, the DBR is best thought of as a conversation, where posters who bring comments that may draw objections present them so that others can understand their points of view. There really is no place, in this version of reality, for in-your-face posts. Moreover, when one has convincing evidence that another poster is wrong, it is usually best to present the evidence with some humility or a self-deprecating remark.

Kindly,
Sage

Devilwin
03-20-2016, 07:30 PM
I like Matt. I really do. He's a good lock down defender, and a good spot up shooter, that's what he does. He's not a point guard, not a real good ball handler, or a slasher. Yes, he makes mistakes in judgement at times, but so does Allen, and nobody's bashing him. Nobody's perfect, and I would rather have Matt on the team than not. I sprained an ankle years ago playing in a rec league, and it bothered me for a month. Couldn't cut or come to a quick stop. I believe he's still somewhat gimpy.

Indoor66
03-20-2016, 07:57 PM
There are important points in this discussion that need to be raised:

(1) The Elizabeth King Board is a Duke fan site. Although that doesn’t make Duke players and teams sacrosanct, it does mean that they will be defended here when criticized, usually vigorously defended. I mean, where else would they get defended? Sometimes the defense is fairly perfunctory – “player X is having a bad stretch” – and sometimes more heated, as in the case of Matt Jones, who is counted on so heavily for his defensive skills.

(2) Criticism of Duke players is certainly in bounds but should be – ahem – “carefully phrased.” Yes, we do have time here, unlike certain public figures, for “political correctness” with respect to Duke players and teams.

(3) The Elizabeth King Board is an important Duke fan resource and can be a lot of fun. I do know, however, many valuable posters from the past who no longer post here and give us the benefit of their insights. When pressed, they express their concerns about the tone of the site, especially the contentious nature of the interchanges. (Of course, they may have lost all impatience with my posts, and are merely being polite.)

In my view, never humbly expressed, the DBR is best thought of as a conversation, where posters who bring comments that may draw objections present them so that others can understand their points of view. There really is no place, in this version of reality, for in-your-face posts. Moreover, when one has convincing evidence that another poster is wrong, it is usually best to present the evidence with some humility or a self-deprecating remark.

Kindly,
Sage

Well said. You are far more gracious than I.

Newton_14
03-20-2016, 09:01 PM
This thread nose dived into a quagmire and away from analysis of the game and celebration of a win that launched Duke into the Sweet Sixteen, so sorry, but it is beyond time to close it.