Game of Thrones 2016 (No Book Spoilers)

[JasonEvans]

We need a new thread for the new season (coming soon, in about a month). I actually think the TV show breaking from the books will be good as there will be no such thing as spoilers to ruin the surprises.

As for me, my family just finished binge-watching the first 5 seasons. Awesome! So, now I am caught up with all of you. First of all, I am sure everyone has seen the new trailer that hit the internet a few days ago.

https://youtu.be/CuH3tJPiP-U

The trailer makes a few things clear:
1. Daenerys has been captured by the Dothraki. She is not being hailed as their ruler and anyone who thought she would was not watching the same show I was. Clearly Jorah and Daario will have to rescue her. I wonder if Jorah's fatal Greyscale will impact them?
2. John Snow is dead... but it sure feels like Davos is dead set on defending his body and keeping it from being burnt. I'd make a large wager that Melisandre has told Davos that she can raise Jon Snow from the dead. As an aside, the Night's Watch oath says, "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..." so if John is brought back he is free to do whatever he wants... including leading an army to take back Winterfell.
3. Sansa is definitely alive, not that there is any surprise in that.
4. "I choose violence" is one of the great lines EVER. The Zombie Mountain is going to smash The Faith soldiers. Lancell Lannister may not be long for this world.
5. Bran is back and is seeing visions of the Night's King (how/why did he get that name? Why can't he just be the King of the White Walkers?).
6. Everyone is buzzing that there appear to be a couple flashback scenes in the trailer that show a very young Ned Stark leading a raid on the Targaryans in an attempt to rescue his sister, Lyanna. As most of you know, the hot rumor is that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth to a Targaryan heir before she died. Ned takes that child and raises him as his own, but hides his identity as the bastard John Snow.

-Jason "I was reading the old threads... Stannis is not alive. Brienne killed him, I'm sure of it." Evans

[Wander]

2. John Snow is dead... but it sure feels like Davos is dead set on defending his body and keeping it from being burnt. I'd make a large wager that Melisandre has told Davos that she can raise Jon Snow from the dead. As an aside, the Night's Watch oath says, "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..." so if John is brought back he is free to do whatever he wants... including leading an army to take back Winterfell.

-Jason "I was reading the old threads... Stannis is not alive. Brienne killed him, I'm sure of it." Evans

I nearly guarantee that Davos' line of "He's gone" is standard trailer misdirection and refers to Stannis and not Jon Snow. Though it is interesting that they haven't shown Ghost at all (Jon's wolf), who I always thought was key to Jon's survival/revival.

I think Stannis is 50/50.

[tbyers11]

I nearly guarantee that Davos' line of "He's gone" is standard trailer misdirection and refers to Stannis and not Jon Snow. Though it is interesting that they haven't shown Ghost at all (Jon's wolf), who I always thought was key to Jon's survival/revival.

I think Stannis is 50/50.

Stannis is most likely the flayed man in the fire at 0:23 of the trailer.

If you freeze frame the trailer at 1:35 Ghost is lying next to the "lifeless" body of Jon Snow when Davos pulls the sword.

[stevoflurane]

I have been waiting for what feels like an eternity for the new season to come out (which happens to be on my wife's birthday). And I haven't really gotten into any other shows recently, so I started rewatching all the episodes. One thing I have noticed, in watching again, and having read the books as well, is there are no wasted scenes, and no wasted lines. Foreshadowing is everywhere. I just didn't pick up most of it because of the what seems like thousands of storylines.

In regards to Jon snow, there are a couple of recent things I noticed that I didn't pick up the first time. Little finger has a monologue about Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark at a jousting competition which sets the stage for the R+L=J. And last night, I was watching the Hardhome episode and there was a scene where Sam was talking to Ollie about Jon going to bring back the wildlings through the wall. Ollie asks if Jon will be ok, and Sam replies, "I've known Jon for many years, and he always comes back." Could he just be talking about going off with the wildlings, or going to kill the mutineers? Possibly. But I think it could be talking about a return in this season.

[Wander]

In regards to Jon snow, there are a couple of recent things I noticed that I didn't pick up the first time. Little finger has a monologue about Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark at a jousting competition which sets the stage for the R+L=J.

I agree, there's also a scene of Littlefinger and Sansa talking to each other last season. Sansa says something about how Rhaegar is horrible for kidnapping and raping Lyanna, and Littlefinger - who I normally think is the relative weak link in a great acting cast, but he does a great job in this scene - has to forcibly stop himself from rolling his eyes right out of his head. So maybe he'll be the one to make the reveal.

[stevoflurane]

Yup, that's the scene I was talking about.

[Doria]

That's a very interesting point, Jason, about the Night's Watch oath. I totally hadn't thought about that. I think most people have thought that Jon is the key to the "ice" part of the "songs of fire and ice" (Dany being presumably the "fire"). Of course, now I am just imagining them in State uniforms, which is an... interesting image.

[JNort]

We need a new thread for the new season (coming soon, in about a month). I actually think the TV show breaking from the books will be good as there will be no such thing as spoilers to ruin the surprises.

As for me, my family just finished binge-watching the first 5 seasons. Awesome! So, now I am caught up with all of you. First of all, I am sure everyone has seen the new trailer that hit the internet a few days ago.

https://youtu.be/CuH3tJPiP-U

The trailer makes a few things clear:
1. Daenerys has been captured by the Dothraki. She is not being hailed as their ruler and anyone who thought she would was not watching the same show I was. Clearly Jorah and Daario will have to rescue her. I wonder if Jorah's fatal Greyscale will impact them?
2. John Snow is dead... but it sure feels like Davos is dead set on defending his body and keeping it from being burnt. I'd make a large wager that Melisandre has told Davos that she can raise Jon Snow from the dead. As an aside, the Night's Watch oath says, "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death..." so if John is brought back he is free to do whatever he wants... including leading an army to take back Winterfell.
3. Sansa is definitely alive, not that there is any surprise in that.
4. "I choose violence" is one of the great lines EVER. The Zombie Mountain is going to smash The Faith soldiers. Lancell Lannister may not be long for this world.
5. Bran is back and is seeing visions of the Night's King (how/why did he get that name? Why can't he just be the King of the White Walkers?).
6. Everyone is buzzing that there appear to be a couple flashback scenes in the trailer that show a very young Ned Stark leading a raid on the Targaryans in an attempt to rescue his sister, Lyanna. As most of you know, the hot rumor is that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth to a Targaryan heir before she died. Ned takes that child and raises him as his own, but hides his identity as the bastard John Snow.

-Jason "I was reading the old threads... Stannis is not alive. Brienne killed him, I'm sure of it." Evans

I'm regards to number 4 you are gonna be very wrong if I'm not mistaken. Very popular and accepted theory says otherwise. There is a Faith soldier we haven't seen or heard about yet.

It's not a spoiler but yes Daenery's has been captured by the Dothraki and being taken to Vaes Dothrak (sp?) the holy city of the Dothraki were her brother had gold poured on his head. When a Khal dies his wife is supposed to go there and obviously she never did.

[JNort]

Stannis is most likely the flayed man in the fire at 0:23 of the trailer.

If you freeze frame the trailer at 1:35 Ghost is lying next to the "lifeless" body of Jon Snow when Davos pulls the sword.

That can't be Stannis though can it? He had just encountered Brienne and she has either A) just beheaded him or B) Taken him as her captive

[El_Diablo]

I'm regards to number 4 you are gonna be very wrong if I'm not mistaken. Very popular and accepted theory says otherwise. There is a Faith soldier we haven't seen or heard about yet.

I subscribe to the theory you are referencing, but that does not mean Jason is wrong. There's the scene in the trailer (where Ser Robert Strong appears to be readying to resolve a confrontation with Lancel), and then there's probably going to be that other thing with that other person who shall remain nameless.

[El_Diablo]

That can't be Stannis though can it? He had just encountered Brienne and she has either A) just beheaded him or B) Taken him as her captive

The editing of the trailer suggests it is Stannis, but that could be misdirection. I think it could be:
-Stannis (whom Brienne could have killed without decapitating)
-Theon (the trailer shows him apparently being surrounded by Bolton men in the woods at 1:08...it looks like Brienne swoops in at 1:10, but maybe she is only able to save Sansa)
-Roose (if Ramsay feels threatened by the prospect of having a trueborn brother and takes matters into his own hands)
-Ramsay himself (note that the imagery is of the Bolton sigil being torched, so maybe he gets his comeuppance; he also seems to like to flay and display his victims, and burning his handiwork is not really consistent with that)

EDIT: I guess it could also just be one of Bran's visions, foreshadowing the fall of House Bolton rather than depicting an actual event.

[JasonEvans]

Something interesting I just noticed in the trailer...

There is a shot of the High Sparrow talking about how even the weak can overthrow an empire. It seems like his usual rhetoric, but have a look at the image:

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23highsparrow-630x354.jpg

He is speaking to someone wearing an awful lot of armor. Perhaps it is one of The Faith soliders, but that armor looks an awful lot like this armor, doesn't it?

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/30-robert-strong-630x354.jpg

That, my friends, is The Mountain. And if you look at the image of the High Sparrow again, you will note that his head is tilted upwards as he speaks. He is either talking to a Faith soldier who is really tall and wearing extensive armor or he is talking to The Mountain. I'm pretty sure it is The Mountain and I'm pretty sure we are seeing the final few moments in the life of the High Sparrow. The Zombie Mountain is about to crush him.

-Jason "just blind speculation on my part... I'm no expert in the books or anything to figure this out but does anyone think that am I wrong?" Evans

[bjornolf]

Something interesting I just noticed in the trailer...

There is a shot of the High Sparrow talking about how even the weak can overthrow an empire. It seems like his usual rhetoric, but have a look at the image:

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23highsparrow-630x354.jpg

He is speaking to someone wearing an awful lot of armor. Perhaps it is one of The Faith soliders, but that armor looks an awful lot like this armor, doesn't it?

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/30-robert-strong-630x354.jpg

That, my friends, is The Mountain. And if you look at the image of the High Sparrow again, you will note that his head is tilted upwards as he speaks. He is either talking to a Faith soldier who is really tall and wearing extensive armor or he is talking to The Mountain. I'm pretty sure it is The Mountain and I'm pretty sure we are seeing the final few moments in the life of the High Sparrow. The Zombie Mountain is about to crush him.

-Jason "just blind speculation on my part... I'm no expert in the books or anything to figure this out but does anyone think that am I wrong?" Evans

You're saying we're seeing his shoulder plate, not his helmet, right?

[tbyers11]

Something interesting I just noticed in the trailer...

There is a shot of the High Sparrow talking about how even the weak can overthrow an empire. It seems like his usual rhetoric, but have a look at the image:

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/23highsparrow-630x354.jpg

He is speaking to someone wearing an awful lot of armor. Perhaps it is one of The Faith soliders, but that armor looks an awful lot like this armor, doesn't it?

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/30-robert-strong-630x354.jpg

That, my friends, is The Mountain. And if you look at the image of the High Sparrow again, you will note that his head is tilted upwards as he speaks. He is either talking to a Faith soldier who is really tall and wearing extensive armor or he is talking to The Mountain. I'm pretty sure it is The Mountain and I'm pretty sure we are seeing the final few moments in the life of the High Sparrow. The Zombie Mountain is about to crush him.

-Jason "just blind speculation on my part... I'm no expert in the books or anything to figure this out but does anyone think that am I wrong?" Evans

You may be correct, but there is another theory out there which could also explain the video. Cersei has a trial by combat coming up where Robert Strong (Zombie Mountain) will be her champion. It is widely speculated that a well-known character who was presumed (but not confirmed) dead in the books will be the champion for the Faith. This champion is no Mountain, but he is also a pretty big dude. The High Sparrow could be speaking to this person.

[El_Diablo]

Jason "just blind speculation on my part... I'm no expert in the books or anything to figure this out but does anyone think that am I wrong?" Evans

I would bet he is talking to Cersei, who is standing next to the Mountain. A similar line (delivered differently) was in the Season 6 teaser regarding the threat to House Lannister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6je-48zll4

There were similar teasers for for the Houses of Stark and Targaryen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkuSem8KJP4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2jYWtZ-JOc

[JNort]

You may be correct, but there is another theory out there which could also explain the video. Cersei has a trial by combat coming up where Robert Strong (Zombie Mountain) will be her champion. It is widely speculated that a well-known character who was presumed (but not confirmed) dead in the books will be the champion for the Faith. This champion is no Mountain, but he is also a pretty big dude. The High Sparrow could be speaking to this person.

Yup, just furthers my belief of what I posted earlier.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Finally... I am caught up on the show and the books and I can read and participate in these threads!

The books put a LOT of emphasis on "wargs" that can flee their body and inhabit an animal or another body. Jon Snow's ability to do this has been definitely forshadowed, and would allow for his character to continue in Ghost (great name, if so) before picking up another two-legged body down the line. Or eventually a dragon, perhaps?

Personally, I didn't miss Bran at all in season five. His storyline never engaged me. It is sort of like GRR just dragged him out into the wilderness purely so he could use his visions to fill in backstory.

And is Rickon ever going to be a character?

Season six is going to be a fun ride for all of us. Eager to get it started.

[Doria]

I'm excited for what looks to be scenes flashing back to the fight at the Tower of Joy. I don't that they are for sure, but I can't think of anything else to plausibly explain the Targaeryn soldiers in the trailer. I don't follow much trailer speculation, so maybe there's a better theory out there.

[bjornolf]

Finally... I am caught up on the show and the books and I can read and participate in these threads!

The books put a LOT of emphasis on "wargs" that can flee their body and inhabit an animal or another body. Jon Snow's ability to do this has been definitely forshadowed, and would allow for his character to continue in Ghost (great name, if so) before picking up another two-legged body down the line. Or eventually a dragon, perhaps?

Personally, I didn't miss Bran at all in season five. His storyline never engaged me. It is sort of like GRR just dragged him out into the wilderness purely so he could use his visions to fill in backstory.

And is Rickon ever going to be a character?

Season six is going to be a fun ride for all of us. Eager to get it started.

I think Bran will end up being important to the fight with the White Walkers. I think the tree has something to do with them.

[JNort]

Finally... I am caught up on the show and the books and I can read and participate in these threads!

The books put a LOT of emphasis on "wargs" that can flee their body and inhabit an animal or another body. Jon Snow's ability to do this has been definitely forshadowed, and would allow for his character to continue in Ghost (great name, if so) before picking up another two-legged body down the line. Or eventually a dragon, perhaps?

Personally, I didn't miss Bran at all in season five. His storyline never engaged me. It is sort of like GRR just dragged him out into the wilderness purely so he could use his visions to fill in backstory.

And is Rickon ever going to be a character?

Season six is going to be a fun ride for all of us. Eager to get it started.

In a major sense? I don't think so, my theory is that when everything is said and done he will rule as warden and lord Stark of one of the major regions as will Sansa

[El_Diablo]

New Season 6 trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrhgVFTI6I

[El_Diablo]

And another new trailer was released today (with lots of new footage):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0ib1NErqg

[Wander]

They're trying so, so hard to make us believe Jon Snow is gone forever.

Notable that Ghost is in the room with Jon in a new clip.

[Doria]

They're trying so, so hard to make us believe Jon Snow is gone forever.

Notable that Ghost is in the room with Jon in a new clip.

But does anyone, even non-book readers, actually believe that he is? I've not seen anyone give an effective analysis of why he couldn't be brought back in a variety of ways. (I'm not saying it isn't possible to defend, but I'd really have to work to do it, and even then, it'd be a real uphill battle.)

I think I'm not gonna watch any more trailers, though. It's close to the season start, and they've already given away a ton.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Having watched the show and read the books now, if Jon Snow really is dead forever and not coming back, then GRRM is just an awful writer. So much of the back story and the upcoming story point straight to Jon Snow. Why go through all that effort to make this character and then just kill him leaving all this back story unexplored?

Or hes a genius and I just don't get it yet.

[JasonEvans]

Having watched the show and read the books now, if Jon Snow really is dead forever and not coming back, then GRRM is just an awful writer. So much of the back story and the upcoming story point straight to Jon Snow. Why go through all that effort to make this character and then just kill him leaving all this back story unexplored?

Or hes a genius and I just don't get it yet.

Maybe Snow will be revived in the books but not on the TV show. Now that the TV show has largely reached the point where it is venturing into uncharted book territory, the two mediums could go in opposite directions.

That said, I expect that the TV show folks are working with GRRM and getting his input on how he expects the books to go... if he ever bothers to write them. And this article from a couple month back (http://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thrones-cant-really-spoil-george-r-r-martins-b-1751238239) makes a good point about how the two mediums will be very different, even if they are trying to arrive at the same end point.


Sure, Martin supposedly told the HBO producers how his books will end, but the devil is in the details. And even if the two endings have the same one-sentence summary, along the lines of “the dragons and snow zombies kill each other off, and everyone dies except Theon, who becomes King of Westeros,” you could imagine that playing out a lot of different ways. There’s probably a lot of stuff that might land better or worse, depending on how you set up all the dominoes.

-Jason "I don't read the books, but there are supposedly already so many differences in the two that it is almost impossible for them both to follow the same plot" Evans

[Wander]

-Jason "I don't read the books, but there are supposedly already so many differences in the two that it is almost impossible for them both to follow the same plot" Evans

I think the differences between the two are vastly exaggerated. The really big characters - Dany, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Bran - are all in basically the same place in the show as they are in the books. The same holds for many of the major, but not super-central characters: Cersei, Theon, Sam, Littlefinger, Tommen, Margaery. For some characters, like Stannis, it's difficult to say right now if their stories are hugely different in the books vs TV show. Yes, Sansa, Jamie, and Brienne seem to be legitimately changed, but I'd say those types of big changes apply to a minority of the main characters.

Sure, it doesn't translate directly from the books to the show like, say, Hunger Games, but I think in the grand scheme of things the adaptation is still more faithful than most adaptations are (compare with all the Marvel movies). For now.

[alteran]

Having watched the show and read the books now, if Jon Snow really is dead forever and not coming back, then GRRM is just an awful writer. So much of the back story and the upcoming story point straight to Jon Snow. Why go through all that effort to make this character and then just kill him leaving all this back story unexplored?



Because that's what G. R. R. Martin does. Welcome to Westeros!

In all seriousness, I actually agree with you that it's unlikely that Martin kills him off, for the reasons you describe. Still, G. R. R. Martin is always tempted by the opportunity to stick a rusty spoon into the guts of his audience and twist for all he's worth.

[BandAlum83]

We need a new thread for the new season (coming soon, in about a month). I actually think the TV show breaking from the books will be good as there will be no such thing as spoilers to ruin the surprises.

As for me, my family just finished binge-watching the first 5 seasons. Awesome!
-Jason "I was reading the old threads... Stannis is not alive. Brienne killed him, I'm sure of it." Evans

Did you watch with your kids?
How old are they?

My Kids are out of college, and we talk about it. I've watched some episodes with my son..but not my daughter. Just too awkward ;)

[BandAlum83]

I'd make a large wager that Melisandre has told Davos that she can raise Jon Snow from the dead.

Damn...now i gotta go re-watch at least some of the last season. I thought Melisandre was dead...

ugh

[BandAlum83]

But does anyone, even non-book readers, actually believe that he is? I've not seen anyone give an effective analysis of why he couldn't be brought back in a variety of ways. (I'm not saying it isn't possible to defend, but I'd really have to work to do it, and even then, it'd be a real uphill battle.)

I think I'm not gonna watch any more trailers, though. It's close to the season start, and they've already given away a ton.

-Through Flashbacks
-Raised through fire (Do we know who his Mother is?)
-Becomes a White walker

I do believe he will be back, as himself and freed of his responsibilities to The Watch

[JasonEvans]

Did you watch with your kids?
How old are they?

My Kids are out of college, and we talk about it. I've watched some episodes with my son..but not my daughter. Just too awkward ;)

Well, my kids watched and my wife and I watched, but we did not always view the episodes at the same time. Given some of the explicit sex on display, I was glad we were not always viewing it together.

I have 2 sons -- one 18 and one 16.

[Doria]

Well, my kids watched and my wife and I watched, but we did not always view the episodes at the same time. Given some of the explicit sex on display, I was glad we were not always viewing it together.

I have 2 sons -- one 18 and one 16.

Yeah, I watched some of S1 with my father. Big mistake--super awkward, though my stepmother is always good for a quote on her opinion of people's posteriors, so that was amusing.

[JasonEvans]

16 hours, 20 minutes to go... not that I am excited or anything ;)

-Jason "odds that anything meaningful gets resolved in episode 1... close to 0%" Evans

[BandAlum83]

Pretty sure I saw Bran walking and talking to a white walker in a season preview.

And wow, the kid has grown a lot since we last saw him 2 seasons ago.

[BandAlum83]

16 hours, 20 minutes to go... not that I am excited or anything ;)

-Jason "odds that anything meaningful gets resolved in episode 1... close to 0%" Evans

Is it available on demand then, or are you time warping??

[Wander]

16 hours, 20 minutes to go... not that I am excited or anything ;)

-Jason "odds that anything meaningful gets resolved in episode 1... close to 0%" Evans

I bet episode 1 will end with the reveal that Jon Snow is alive, either barely surviving the attack, being inside of Ghost, or brought back to life by Melisandre. That obviously will be surprising to exactly 0 people, but still.

[Doria]

Oh, if anyone is interested, I believe HBO is running a free weekend, so anyone can legally watch, even without a subscription.

[Doria]

I forgot a link to the article in which I read about the weekend. This isn't the one, but it has the same info: http://www.forbes.com/sites/seamuskirst/2016/04/22/lemonade-veep-got-and-silicon-valley-hbo-offers-free-preview-during-weekend-of-premieres/#78ef0aa069f9

If you don't have cable, you can use the HBO Now app, also. Some regional restrictions apply, so if anyone's interested, you should probably check with your cable provider.

[JNort]

Can't. Freaking. Wait.

[JasonEvans]

Is it available on demand then, or are you time warping??

Crud... I meant to say 26 hours, not 16 hours. Typo not time warp ;)

Now 8 hours, 35 minutes...

[Mike Corey]

Can hardly wait.

[ncexnyc]

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate these people who make Game of Thrones?

This has to be the fastest 60 minutes in TV history. At the end of each episode I'm always left screaming NOOOOOOOO!

[BandAlum83]

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate these people who make Game of Thrones?

This has to be the fastest 60 minutes in TV history. At the end of each episode I'm always left screaming NOOOOOOOO!

I totally agree. I want to stop watching the season, wait until it's over and then binge!!

[JasonEvans]

In a show that has always pushed the envelope with nudity, can I just say that the final scene went too far. Eeeeeeewwwww!! I will never be able to not see that when Melisandra gets naked... and she gets naked a lot!

:)

In other news, nothing was resolved with any of the main storylines. That's ok. I do wonder though, how did Theon and Sansa survive the jump?

-Jason "so, who now rules Dorne? Is it Elleria? And how did she know none of the other guards would come to the king's aid when she attacked him? I knew he was too lenient with her defiance last season" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

In other news, nothing was resolved with any of the main storylines. That's ok. I do wonder though, how did Theon and Sansa survive the jump?

If I remember correctly, in the books the snow banks were significant enough to break their fall.

I put it in the category of "don't think about it too hard."

[JasonEvans]

Worth noting -- once something has aired on TV, it is no longer a spoiler, so we can talk about it. Agreed?

[wavedukefan70s]

I wish the first episode was two hours.i just didnt get enough out of that one.minus the flap jacks at the end.

[JNort]

In a show that has always pushed the envelope with nudity, can I just say that the final scene went too far. Eeeeeeewwwww!! I will never be able to not see that when Melisandra gets naked... and she gets naked a lot!

:)

In other news, nothing was resolved with any of the main storylines. That's ok. I do wonder though, how did Theon and Sansa survive the jump?

-Jason "so, who now rules Dorne? Is it Elleria? And how did she know none of the other guards would come to the king's aid when she attacked him? I knew he was too lenient with her defiance last season" Evans

Well it wouldn't be much of a season if story lines got wrapped up in episode 1. I am glad they showed all the characters though (except Bran again) cause I thought for sure they wouldnt show us Jon episode 1.

Yeah that candid shot of Melisandra was somthing I would have loved to have to seen. I'm still betting she gives up her life to revive Jon Snow and that's why we got a shot of her old age.

I think that that woman (Oberyns lover) now rules. Not sure really but it's baaaad news for Westeros cause they all have been pushing for war since day 1.

[Dev11]

Watching the final scene right before bed was not an experience I'd recommend.

[El_Diablo]

Melisandre's advanced age is hinted at in the books, so I guess that theory has been confirmed. I thought the point of the awkward bath scene in Season 4 (in which Mel flaunts herself to Selyse) was to demonstrate that the show was not going down this path, because she was notably not wearing her necklace there. I probably gave the showrunners too much credit, however, as now that bath scene just seems like a massive continuity error that was thrown in for boobs, and only boobs. Sigh.

Anyway, this reveal is curious for its timing. Hopefully it serves some purpose (other than pure shock value) and will help explain whatever powers Melisandre is about to use now that Davos has shown his willingness to weaponize her.

[JasonEvans]

and will help explain whatever powers Melisandre is about to use now that Davos has shown his willingness to weaponize her.

Wait, do you think that loyal Night's Watch guy who Davos sent off for help was going to get Melisandre or to get the Wildlings? I thought he was headed to round up some Wildling supporters.

-Jason "was that a real old lady or CGI? Please let it be CGI" Evans

[El_Diablo]

Wait, do you think that loyal Night's Watch guy who Davos sent off for help was going to get Melisandre or to get the Wildlings? I thought he was headed to round up some Wildling supporters.

-Jason "was that a real old lady or CGI? Please let it be CGI" Evans

Dolorous Edd was off to enlist the help of the Wildlings. But right before cutting to Melisandre, Davos was explaining to the others in the room that she has special powers that they may be able to use.

Night's Watchman: "It's a sad f*cking statement if Dolorous Edd is our only chance."
Davos: "There's always the Red Woman."
Night's Watchman: "What's one redhead gonna do against 40 armed men?"
Davos: "You haven't seen her do what I've seen her do."

EDIT: Added quotes.

[ncexnyc]

Mel's abilities have been taking a bit of a hit these past few seasons. I mean think back to Season 2, first she drinks a whole cup of poison as if it were nothing and then she births the shadow monster. I'm sure those two events used up a lot of her mojo, which could explain why so many of her predictions haven't panned out like she would have hoped since then.

Maybe she has one more trick up her sleeve, oops I mean under her gown to play.

[El_Diablo]

Mel's abilities have been taking a bit of a hit these past few seasons. I mean think back to Season 2, first she drinks a whole cup of poison as if it were nothing and then she births the shadow monster. I'm sure those two events used up a lot of her mojo, which could explain why so many of her predictions haven't panned out like she would have hoped since then.

Maybe she has one more trick up her sleeve, oops I mean under her gown to play.

In Season 5, she said her visions were of the Bolton banners being lowered over Winterfell. In this past episode, she said "I saw him [Jon Snow] in the flames fighting at Winterfell." Neither one has been completely disproven yet; it's possible she was misinterpreting them based on a faulty assumption that Stannis was the one true king, but they may yet pan out.

[Wander]

Who's the leader in charge of the Mereen revolt that Varys referenced? No point in mentioning that if it's a nameless character with no connection to anyone we've ever met, right? Daario, Hizdahr, or someone else?

[davekay1971]

My own theory about Melisandre and Snow: Melisandre was basing her actions on the belief that Stannis was the true king. Her use of his daughter as a sacrifice was under that theory, thus making his daughter royal blood. Obviously, that didn't work out. Well, now she reveals that she saw Snow fighting in Winterfell. And we see she is very old, likely near the end of her life. I believe she will sacrifice the rest of her life to use the power of the Lord of Light to bring Jon back. Why? Because she's looking for a king to stop the White Walkers. A king who cannot be burned by fire. Perhaps a Targaryan. Despite the gratuitous young Melisandre boob and butt shot followed by the shock value old lady (hey honey, shows over, you in the mood?), I think the writers just set up the return of Jon Snow. And when he's up, and Edd's back with the wildlings, the almost extinct Night's Watch will be no more. Which is fine, because it's hardly a functional fighting force now. Probably better for Jon to take the wildlings to liberate Winterfell, and unite them with the Sansa and the North...just in time to pledge them to Aunt Danaerys and her dragons :-)

[BandAlum83]

Wait, do you think that loyal Night's Watch guy who Davos sent off for help was going to get Melisandre or to get the Wildlings? I thought he was headed to round up some Wildling supporters.

-Jason "was that a real old lady or CGI? Please let it be CGI" Evans

It was pretty clear to me that he was going to round up Wildings.

[BandAlum83]

My own theory about Melisandre and Snow: Melisandre was basing her actions on the belief that Stannis was the true king. Her use of his daughter as a sacrifice was under that theory, thus making his daughter royal blood. Obviously, that didn't work out. Well, now she reveals that she saw Snow fighting in Winterfell. And we see she is very old, likely near the end of her life. I believe she will sacrifice the rest of her life to use the power of the Lord of Light to bring Jon back. Why? Because she's looking for a king to stop the White Walkers. A king who cannot be burned by fire. Perhaps a Targaryan. Despite the gratuitous young Melisandre boob and butt shot followed by the shock value old lady (hey honey, shows over, you in the mood?), I think the writers just set up the return of Jon Snow. And when he's up, and Edd's back with the wildlings, the almost extinct Night's Watch will be no more. Which is fine, because it's hardly a functional fighting force now. Probably better for Jon to take the wildlings to liberate Winterfell, and unite them with the Sansa and the North...just in time to pledge them to Aunt Danaerys and her dragons :-)

I think it's quite possible we find out Jon Snow is actually a Targaryn. Perhaps his body will be burned and he will rise from the ashes?

[JasonEvans]

I think it's quite possible we find out Jon Snow is actually a Targaryn. Perhaps his body will be burned and he will rise from the ashes?

I can buy a lot of magic on the show -- heck, we've seen people rise from the dead all sorts of ways and this is a show with dragons and abominable snowmen (sorta) in it -- but I will be quite disappointed if we find out that Targaryns can be resurrected by burning their bodies. That just feels like a cop-out and something that would have been made known before now. I mean, funeral pyres for kings and others are pretty common so I'd think a Targaryn had been burned before now.

I'm trying to recall, was Jorah Mormont surprised when Days walked out of Khal Drago's funeral pyre? I think he was. I don't think resistance to fire is all that common, even among the Targaryn clan.

-Jason "I could be wrong -- I didn't read the books so I may be missing a lot of stuff" Evans

[El_Diablo]

No no no. Jon Snow may end up being resurrected, but if it happens in connection with a fire it will have nothing to do with the fact that he is a Targaryen. Remember Maester Aemon last season? He just burned on the pyre; he did not spring back to life.

Targaryens being immune to fire/heat is a myth that has been perpetuated by the depiction of what happened to Dany in the first season. Yet Viserys died from severe heat-related injuries. Aerion Targaryen has been referenced on the show as having died from drinking wildfire. There are other examples from the books and related canon. George R.R. Martin has even gone on record on at least two occasions to refute this myth:

"Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times." www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

"It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold." http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

[BandAlum83]

I can buy a lot of magic on the show -- heck, we've seen people rise from the dead all sorts of ways and this is a show with dragons and abominable snowmen (sorta) in it -- but I will be quite disappointed if we find out that Targaryns can be resurrected by burning their bodies. That just feels like a cop-out and something that would have been made known before now. I mean, funeral pyres for kings and others are pretty common so I'd think a Targaryn had been burned before now.

I'm trying to recall, was Jorah Mormont surprised when Days walked out of Khal Drago's funeral pyre? I think he was. I don't think resistance to fire is all that common, even among the Targaryn clan.

-Jason "I could be wrong -- I didn't read the books so I may be missing a lot of stuff" Evans

Dany Targaryn Was burned and came out of the ashes with her dragons. You don't remember that scene?

Well, maybe technically, she cannot burn. So maybe she didn't die and rise. Maybe it will take additional intervention from Melisandre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8zYeN9z8XY

[JasonEvans]

Dany Targaryn Was burned and came out of the ashes with her dragons. You don't remember that scene?

Well, maybe technically, she cannot burn. So maybe she didn't die and rise.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referencing when I wrote "Days walked out of Khal Drago's funeral pyre."

I'm confused about how I confused you ;)

[ncexnyc]

Yes, that is exactly what I was referencing when I wrote "Days walked out of Khal Drago's funeral pyre."

I'm confused about how I confused you ;)

Priests of the Lord of Light do have limits to their power. I recall the leader of the Brotherhood who came back from the dead, each time it took longer and longer to revive and I believe the wounds didn't heal as clean as those suffered from his initial death.

As for Mel being very old, we had her start to discuss this with Stannis after Blackwater. He started ranting about her knowing nothing about battle and when she started talking about her past she didn't get to finish her thoughts as Stannis started choking her.

It would also appear that we did get one thread wrapped up from last season. Roose Bolton's comment to his son seemed to indicate that Stannis is indeed dead.

[bjornolf]

According to an interview, it was Melisandre's head on an older woman's body. Even creepier, eh?

[Doria]

According to an interview, it was Melisandre's head on an older woman's body. Even creepier, eh?

Yes. That actually makes it creepy to me (since I see nothing particularly creepy about older women's bodies in themselves, and hope to have one someday myself).

(On the other hand, I'll certainly give you crepey...)

[JNort]

Priests of the Lord of Light do have limits to their power. I recall the leader of the Brotherhood who came back from the dead, each time it took longer and longer to revive and I believe the wounds didn't heal as clean as those suffered from his initial death.

As for Mel being very old, we had her start to discuss this with Stannis after Blackwater. He started ranting about her knowing nothing about battle and when she started talking about her past she didn't get to finish her thoughts as Stannis started choking her.

It would also appear that we did get one thread wrapped up from last season. Roose Bolton's comment to his son seemed to indicate that Stannis is indeed dead.

Until I see a body I doubt this. The Mannis lives I tell ya!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes. That actually makes it creepy to me (since I see nothing particularly creepy about older women's bodies in themselves, and hope to have one someday myself).

(On the other hand, I'll certainly give you crepey...)

Are you suggesting women actually age?

Pretty out there theory, Doria.

:)

[bjornolf]

Yes. That actually makes it creepy to me (since I see nothing particularly creepy about older women's bodies in themselves, and hope to have one someday myself).

(On the other hand, I'll certainly give you crepey...)

To me, the creepy thing was her taking off the necklace and aging 100 years. The fact that the effect was created the way it was makes it creepier.

[Mal]

No no no. Jon Snow may end up being resurrected, but if it happens in connection with a fire it will have nothing to do with the fact that he is a Targaryen. Remember Maester Aemon last season? He just burned on the pyre; he did not spring back to life.[/url]

Yeah, there's a big difference between not burning when touched by fire and being resurrected from death through the power of fire.

I've seen several theories now on the Melisandre will she or won't she be raising Jon Snow from the dead and how and what related relevance does her reverting to her aged physical self have to that, line of discussion. The trouble, at least with respect to the "how" part if we think she's going to bring him back, is (and maybe this is different for people who've read the books) we don't really know the ground rules and the menu of the magic here. She's done things like burn leaches, burn children, and birth vapor assassins, but none of those had anything to do with reviving a dead person, IIRC. There's the Brotherhood without Banners guy with nine lives, but I don't recall being given a whole lot of insight as to how he comes back to life. So, yeah, maybe she gives up years of her own life, maybe she sacrifices herself entirely and the Lord of Light puts life back into Jon, maybe there's some other tradeoff or trick, but who knows.

Perhaps it's just not tied together at all, though. Maybe she turns old again every night when going to bed, as it's tiring keeping up the magic all day every day (assuming it's not just the power of the necklace that transforms her). Next time we see her I bet she's back to her false younger form. I don't think, despite her depression over being so wrong about Stannis and messing up so badly by burning his daughter for nothing, that she just laid down to die.

In other words, I think the "reveal" here is more to do with "Hey, Melisandre's hundreds of years old and is playing a different game than you may think she's been." The problem there is that if that's the case, one must sort of question her wisdom. If she's had so much time in that world, filled with prophecy and great powers, she should have known that the fight for the Iron Throne's not the real game, and that Stannis Baratheon wasn't the one to hitch her wagon to.

[wilson]

...I think the "reveal" here is more to do with "Hey, Melisandre's hundreds of years old and is playing a different game than you may think she's been." The problem there is that if that's the case, one must sort of question her wisdom. If she's had so much time in that world, filled with prophecy and great powers, she should have known that the fight for the Iron Throne's not the real game, and that Stannis Baratheon wasn't the one to hitch her wagon to....but could this be precisely why she insinuated herself into Stannis's inner circle to begin with? Melisandre's various advice to SB in terms of military strategy, political maneuvering, and the brutal slaying of his daughter was almost universally bad advice. Perhaps she was "thinning the herd," so to speak, so as to give an assist to her preferred/prophesied outcome to the whole shebang.

Good post, Mal; interesting insights.

[Doria]

...but could this be precisely why she insinuated herself into Stannis's inner circle to begin with? Melisandre's various advice to SB in terms of military strategy, political maneuvering, and the brutal slaying of his daughter was almost universally bad advice. Perhaps she was "thinning the herd," so to speak, so as to give an assist to her preferred/prophesied outcome to the whole shebang.

Good post, Mal; interesting insights.

Just on the face of it, I don't really agree with the theory, but it is an interesting one that I hadn't considered. (I think she was just wrong.) But yes, I agree that that was an extremely interesting post that gives me plenty to mull over. I'll have to think on it some more...

[JNort]

Yeah, there's a big difference between not burning when touched by fire and being resurrected from death through the power of fire.

I've seen several theories now on the Melisandre will she or won't she be raising Jon Snow from the dead and how and what related relevance does her reverting to her aged physical self have to that, line of discussion. The trouble, at least with respect to the "how" part if we think she's going to bring him back, is (and maybe this is different for people who've read the books) we don't really know the ground rules and the menu of the magic here. She's done things like burn leaches, burn children, and birth vapor assassins, but none of those had anything to do with reviving a dead person, IIRC. There's the Brotherhood without Banners guy with nine lives, but I don't recall being given a whole lot of insight as to how he comes back to life. So, yeah, maybe she gives up years of her own life, maybe she sacrifices herself entirely and the Lord of Light puts life back into Jon, maybe there's some other tradeoff or trick, but who knows.

Perhaps it's just not tied together at all, though. Maybe she turns old again every night when going to bed, as it's tiring keeping up the magic all day every day (assuming it's not just the power of the necklace that transforms her). Next time we see her I bet she's back to her false younger form. I don't think, despite her depression over being so wrong about Stannis and messing up so badly by burning his daughter for nothing, that she just laid down to die.

In other words, I think the "reveal" here is more to do with "Hey, Melisandre's hundreds of years old and is playing a different game than you may think she's been." The problem there is that if that's the case, one must sort of question her wisdom. If she's had so much time in that world, filled with prophecy and great powers, she should have known that the fight for the Iron Throne's not the real game, and that Stannis Baratheon wasn't the one to hitch her wagon to.

It is briefly and vaguely discussed here from 3:20 to 5:20

Watch "Game of Thrones (S03E06) - Melisandre meets with the Brotherhood without Banners" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/vEj1aN_Rmj0

I know it doesn't answer what you said really but it sounds like if Rhollor (sp?) approves then he grants them life again. I think (and this is a mix of book and show knowledge with no spoilers) if you attempt to revive a person as soon as they die there are no real repercussions but if you wait too long you may have to give up your life in return for theirs. I think it's been to long for Mel just to revive Jon without giving up her life in return which is why she looked her self in the mirror at her aging body with sadness on her face. I think she knows too that to serve her god she must die and revive Jon Snow.

[Wander]

...but could this be precisely why she insinuated herself into Stannis's inner circle to begin with? Melisandre's various advice to SB in terms of military strategy, political maneuvering, and the brutal slaying of his daughter was almost universally bad advice. Perhaps she was "thinning the herd," so to speak, so as to give an assist to her preferred/prophesied outcome to the whole shebang.


My favorite version of this is that the sacrifices were made in order to keep Melisandre looking young, and all the other stuff about the Lord of Light is just a cover story. This is a pretty common witch trope in fairy tales and fantasy.

But as fun as these ideas are, they don't really jive with how Mel is acting, looking sad and losing faith and all that. So I think just file it under "things that would be cool but aren't true."

[Mal]

how Mel is acting, looking sad and losing faith and all that

How awesome would it have been if the closing credits had some Westeros version of a mandolin accompanying the actress singing "Ohhhhhh, life, it's bigger. It's bigger than you. And you are not me."

If I were younger and savvier I'd intersperse Melisandre resignation looks and fail clips with those awkward, spastic Michael Stipe dance moves.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Whoa...

[JNort]

Omg didn't think that was coming this early. Thought for sure we would be waiting till episode 8 or later. What does he do first now that he is back?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sometimes, dead is better.6340

[ncexnyc]

OMG Ramsay Bolton!

The fallout from this episode on Twitter is worse than what it was from the Cersi and Jamie getting it on next to their dead son episode.

[JasonEvans]

OMG Ramsay Bolton!

The fallout from this episode on Twitter is worse than what it was from the Cersi and Jamie getting it on next to their dead son episode.

I have not read the tweets, are folks upset about Snow coming back to life or about Bolton feeding his "mother" and brother to the dogs? Ramsay is most certainly the biggest villain at the moment. I'm not sure who I would root for in a battle of him versus the army of the dead. I'm sure he will be facing off versus John Snow and his army of Wildlings very soon. I suspect several of the houses of the North will join Snow's army too, which may surprise Ramsay and lead to his defeat.

Other random thoughts --

So, are the dragons now free to roam the countryside and eat any sheep or children that they want? I loved Tyrian's story about how much he wanted a dragon. It is the Targaryn in him ;)
Arya got back in the good graces of the faceless man awful quick, didn't she? Maybe she spent a while begging, but it sorta feels like she only did it for a week or so.
I can't wait for the episode where we spend the whole time finding out Hodor's back story ;)
So, Bram's role in the story will be to fill in, via flashback, all the stuff from the past that we need to understand what is going to happen in the future. Ok, I can live with that.
Zombie Mountain may be my new favorite character. Did you see how relieved 2-dozen king's guard were that they were not going to have to fight him? It looked like he stuck his fist through that guy's head. I can't wait to see him kill a few dozen faith militant all by himself.
Does the High Sparrow think his faith militant can defeat the king's guard? He sure seems to be courting an all-out battle. I'm not getting what his end game is.


-Jason "is it next Sunday yet?" Evans

[BLPOG]

Zombie Mountain may be my new favorite character. Did you see how relieved 2-dozen king's guard city watch were that they were not going to have to fight him? It looked like he stuck his fist through that guy's head. I can't wait to see him kill a few dozen faith militant all by himself.


FTFY. There are only 7 king's guard. I'm stoked about Zombie Mountain as well. One of this season's actors has hinted at another character's return that would imply a spectacular clash with Zombie Mountain. Also, for such a small role, didn't the watchman with the speaking role do a tremendous job? You could really feel the terror/relief. Speaking of terror, hats off to Fat Walda's actress as well.

(I also really like the idea of just calling him Zombie Mountain rather than Cersei's "Robert Strong")

[Dev11]

Balon Greyjoy executed stall ball on the War of the Five Kings like he wrote the textbook on the matter. It's such a shame he bombed the postgame presser so badly.

[bjornolf]

(I also really like the idea of just calling him Zombie Mountain rather than Cersei's "Robert Strong")

Doesn't everyone? :rolleyes: I've been calling him that since I read the book. :D

Zombie Mountain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Strong

With Nymeria missing and Shaggy Dog off with Rickon and Ghost with Jon and Bran with Summer off North of the Wall, I've been hoping for a Jon v. Ramsay matchup. Picture this... Jon is standing at the top of a hill, the battle surging below him, bloody Longclaw clasped in both hands. He's a little beat up, breathing heavily, his horse long gone. Ramsay has been skirting the edges of the battle siezing opportunity here and there with his dogs, but never really engaging or risking himself. Ramsay sees his opportunity with Jon alone and tired. He comes up the hill with his dogs toward Jon, thinking he'll finish the war right there. Ghost steps up next to Jon, barely giving Ramsay and his pack a second of hesitation, but then Nymeria, Summer, and Shaggydog top the hill and form up in front of him. Then we have an epic dog v. direwolf battle as Jon kills Ramsay. Either that or Ramsay's dogs turn tail and the direwolves just eat him. How appropriate would THAT be?! :cool:

[JasonEvans]

(I also really like the idea of just calling him Zombie Mountain rather than Cersei's "Robert Strong")

I don't think she, or anyone else, have called him by name yet since we first met him at the end of last season. I am awaiting the day we get a big reveal of his face -- which likely looks somewhat like Frankenstein, I suspect. His skin/eyes look bluish or green under his helmet. I just hope he doesn't look like Bane from Batman and Robin.

http://thecarter.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/bane-batman.jpg

As an aside, we've got 7 stories going on at the same time right now:

John Snow with the Wildlings at the Wall and the threat of the Army of the Dead
Sansa, Brienne, and Theon on the run from Ramsay, who continues his dogged pursuit of control over the North (dogged, get it?)

Side plot to Sansa and Theon is the battle for control over the Iron Islands, which appears to be among Theon's sister and a long-lost uncle who just came back
Bram and his visions of the past
Cersei and Jamie versus the High Sparrow for control of King's Landing
Arya's training in Bravos with Jaqen H'Gar
Daenerys captured by the Dothraki with Jorah and Daario trying to rescue her
Tyrian and Varys trying to control Mereen and defeat the Sons of the Harpy

Now that we've had a couple weeks of updates on all the stories (no Dany last night, but we had developments in all the others), I think it would be good if the show picked only 2 or 3 to follow each week. I'd rather get a large chunk of a couple stories versus a little bit of 5 or 6 of them each week.

-Jason "I left out whatever if going on with the Sand Snakes, Ellaria and Dorne. I imagine the show will reference it at some point, but I feel like we don't really care about that stuff after Ellaria and the Snakes killed the Martells" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Balon Greyjoy executed stall ball on the War of the Five Kings like he wrote the textbook on the matter. It's such a shame he bombed the postgame presser so badly.

It is worth noting that with Balon's death, all three of the kings who were cursed by Melisandra and Stanis with the leeches are now dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BX4LelSVfY

Of course, it took a while to off Balon and Stanis never lived to see it happen. Silly Lord of Light magic... it doesn't work at all, does it?

https://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/kit-harington-game-of-thrones-hbo.jpg?w=769


With Nymeria missing and Shaggy Dog off with Rickon and Ghost with Jon and Bran with Summer off North of the Wall, I've been hoping for a Jon v. Ramsay matchup. Picture this... Jon is standing at the top of a hill, the battle surging below him, bloody Longclaw clasped in both hands. He's a little beat up, breathing heavily, his horse long gone. Ramsay has been skirting the edges of the battle siezing opportunity here and there with his dogs, but never really engaging or risking himself. Ramsay sees his opportunity with Jon alone and tired. He comes up the hill with his dogs toward Jon, thinking he'll finish the war right there. Ghost steps up next to Jon, barely giving Ramsay and his pack a second of hesitation, but then Nymeria, Summer, and Shaggydog top the hill and form up in front of him. Then we have an epic dog v. direwolf battle as Jon kills Ramsay. Either that or Ramsay's dogs turn tail and the direwolves just eat him. How appropriate would THAT be?! :cool:

Someone get GRRM on the phone! He needs to hear this idea!

-Jason "anyone suspect that Martin will intentionally take the books in a different direction from the TV show... just because he hates to be predictable?" Evans

[Wander]

I don't think she, or anyone else, have called him by name yet since we first met him at the end of last season. I am awaiting the day we get a big reveal of his face -- which likely looks somewhat like Frankenstein, I suspect. His skin/eyes look bluish or green under his helmet. I just hope he doesn't look like Bane from Batman and Robin.

http://thecarter.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/bane-batman.jpg

As an aside, we've got 7 stories going on at the same time right now:

John Snow with the Wildlings at the Wall and the threat of the Army of the Dead
Sansa, Brienne, and Theon on the run from Ramsay, who continues his dogged pursuit of control over the North (dogged, get it?)

Side plot to Sansa and Theon is the battle for control over the Iron Islands, which appears to be among Theon's sister and a long-lost uncle who just came back
Bram and his visions of the past
Cersei and Jamie versus the High Sparrow for control of King's Landing
Arya's training in Bravos with Jaqen H'Gar
Daenerys captured by the Dothraki with Jorah and Daario trying to rescue her
Tyrian and Varys trying to control Mereen and defeat the Sons of the Harpy

Now that we've had a couple weeks of updates on all the stories (no Dany last night, but we had developments in all the others), I think it would be good if the show picked only 2 or 3 to follow each week. I'd rather get a large chunk of a couple stories versus a little bit of 5 or 6 of them each week.

-Jason "I left out whatever if going on with the Sand Snakes, Ellaria and Dorne. I imagine the show will reference it at some point, but I feel like we don't really care about that stuff after Ellaria and the Snakes killed the Martells" Evans

Plus Sam, who wasn't in the trailers or anything but is for sure going to be in the season. Some of the characters need to consolidating so some of the storylines can be told at the same time (Sansa reaching the wall, Dany getting back to Mereen).

[Mal]

I suspect several of the houses of the North will join Snow's army too, which may surprise Ramsay and lead to his defeat.

I wonder about the professed loyalty of the Karstark who said he'd permanently bailed on the Starks after Robb executed his father. I get that sense for vengeance, so I don't think it likely he'll join up with Jon, necessarily (although part of me thinks the stoic, stable, rule following Northerner might still prevail in him). Still, though, the Karstarks allied themselves with Roose, not Ramsay, he just witnessed Ramsay murder his own father in cold blood, and he obviously wasn't good king material even before that. I could see a double crossing before they even get to the Wall.

In any event, a resurrected Jon with a wildling army including a giant, and the backing and resources Davos and Melisandre could bring, should be able to take down Ramsay Bolton, no? I don't buy that Ramsay has any idea what it is to actually command an army or lead men beyond his small band of terrorists. He's counting on having over half the great houses of the North on his side, but I don't think great houses of the North are big fans of guys like him. And despite the [spoiler if you didn't watch the preview for next episode last night] indication that the Umber head of household shows up to hand over Rickon, I don't think he actually has their support. Didn't the Boltons and Freys slaughter a bunch of Umbers at the red wedding? I could see Winterfell in revolt five minutes after Ramsay's gone, too. Probably all just wishful thinking, though, out of revulsion at Ramsay. Aside, but I just fastforwarded from the moment Walda and the baby showed up. Couldn't watch it.

All that said, there's a wild card offscreen that may be the ultimate determinant in the war for the North. Interesting that we haven't seen him in over half a season, but I recall there was a guy, who'd recently taken over the Vale, raising an army with Lannister permission and preparing to pick off the weakened winner of Bolton vs. Stannis. No idea how he'll respond to news that the mysterious bastard Stark Lord Commander has an army of loyal wildlings, whatever's left of the Night's Watch, Stannis Baratheon's brain trust, and no feeling of being bound to Castle Black. Or that he's been reunited with one of the strongest chess pieces on his board in Sansa, should that come to pass. Interestingly, Baelish won't know, if this reunion occurs, something critical that Jon will, which is that Bran, Rickon and Arya are all alive, whatever effect that may have on things. If the remainder of the North learns that in reality, only one of the Stark children died, and their half brother's become some kind of mythic figure, I could see that having ramifications on loyalties.

[Wander]

All that said, there's a wild card offscreen that may be the ultimate determinant in the war for the North. Interesting that we haven't seen him in over half a season, but I recall there was a guy, who'd recently taken over the Vale, raising an army with Lannister permission and preparing to pick off the weakened winner of Bolton vs. Stannis. No idea how he'll respond to news that the mysterious bastard Stark Lord Commander has an army of loyal wildlings, whatever's left of the Night's Watch, Stannis Baratheon's brain trust, and no feeling of being bound to Castle Black. Or that he's been reunited with one of the strongest chess pieces on his board in Sansa, should that come to pass. Interestingly, Baelish won't know, if this reunion occurs, something critical that Jon will, which is that Bran, Rickon and Arya are all alive, whatever effect that may have on things. If the remainder of the North learns that in reality, only one of the Stark children died, and their half brother's become some kind of mythic figure, I could see that having ramifications on loyalties.

Good observation. I think Littlefinger will end up being the story's ultimate villain, having manipulated lots of key events throughout the show (assassination attempts of Bran and Tyrion, the snake-necklace threat to Myrcella). My one pet crazy conspiracy theory is that he's even in league with the White Walkers.

My friend pointed out to me that Theon didn't ACTUALLY say he was going to the Iron Islands. He said he was going "home." Especially notable in that it was the title of the episode. Could he be heading back to Winterfell?

[JasonEvans]

Plus Sam, who wasn't in the trailers or anything but is for sure going to be in the season. Some of the characters need to consolidating so some of the storylines can be told at the same time (Sansa reaching the wall, Dany getting back to Mereen).

Well, Sam is really part of John Snow's story. My bet is that he is doing some serious research on what was written many years ago about war with the White Walkers. He's going to be invaluable with knowledge about Valerian Steel and Dragon Glass and anything else that will kill a White Walker.

I agree that some of the stories can be told at the same time, in fact that is what I would advocate for. I would line them up like this (not that my opinion matters and this entire season is already shot, I think, so this conversation really is irrelevant).


Stories 1 - John, Sansa, and Bram
Stories 2 - Arya and Cersei/Jamie
Stories 3 - Dany and Tyrian

-Jason "so, did the Dragons not burn Tyrian because he is secretly a Targaryn?"Evans

[BLPOG]

I wonder about the professed loyalty of the Karstark who said he'd permanently bailed on the Starks after Robb executed his father. I get that sense for vengeance, so I don't think it likely he'll join up with Jon, necessarily (although part of me thinks the stoic, stable, rule following Northerner might still prevail in him). Still, though, the Karstarks allied themselves with Roose, not Ramsay, he just witnessed Ramsay murder his own father in cold blood, and he obviously wasn't good king material even before that. I could see a double crossing before they even get to the Wall.

I want to make a comment about that Karstark but it relates to book content and I'm not sure if it falls under the disallowed content in this thread. So, spoiler tags:

IIRC, in the books the Karstark house is pissed of at the Starks because of Robb (same as show), but this one Karstark in particular is known as a bad dude - sort of the Ramsay or Joffrey of the Karstarks. Other Northerners know he's a bad guy. I don't think there has been any exposition about that in the show.


My friend pointed out to me that Theon didn't ACTUALLY say he was going to the Iron Islands. He said he was going "home." Especially notable in that it was the title of the episode. Could he be heading back to Winterfell?

Maybe he's going to try to assassinate Ramsay?

[Doria]

Doesn't everyone? :rolleyes: I've been calling him that since I read the book. :D

Zombie Mountain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Strong

With Nymeria missing and Shaggy Dog off with Rickon and Ghost with Jon and Bran with Summer off North of the Wall, I've been hoping for a Jon v. Ramsay matchup. Picture this... Jon is standing at the top of a hill, the battle surging below him, bloody Longclaw clasped in both hands. He's a little beat up, breathing heavily, his horse long gone. Ramsay has been skirting the edges of the battle siezing opportunity here and there with his dogs, but never really engaging or risking himself. Ramsay sees his opportunity with Jon alone and tired. He comes up the hill with his dogs toward Jon, thinking he'll finish the war right there. Ghost steps up next to Jon, barely giving Ramsay and his pack a second of hesitation, but then Nymeria, Summer, and Shaggydog top the hill and form up in front of him. Then we have an epic dog v. direwolf battle as Jon kills Ramsay. Either that or Ramsay's dogs turn tail and the direwolves just eat him. How appropriate would THAT be?! :cool:

That would be awesome. Now, I will be disappointed if we don't get that scene in some form. And I don't know about "everyone," but my friends and I have certainly called him that. I'm surprised if most people don't!


I am awaiting the day we get a big reveal of his face -- which likely looks somewhat like Frankenstein, I suspect. His skin/eyes look bluish or green under his helmet. I just hope he doesn't look like Bane from Batman and Robin.
{snip} I think it would be good if the show picked only 2 or 3 to follow each week. I'd rather get a large chunk of a couple stories versus a little bit of 5 or 6 of them each week.

Ergh, that picture is more horrifying than anything I can recall in GoT! I did not remember him looking that way... Repression at work, I suppose.

Also, concur that I hope they go back to more 2-3 plots each week (I'm okay with like 2-minute peeks, if it's really necessary for a particular other plot to advance). Oh, yeah, it also occurred to me that Mel's curse worked, albeit reeeaaally slowly.

Hmm, yeah, BLPLOG, I don't know where Karstark will fall in the show. It seems he has motives to support either Northern claim, but in the show it's unclear (to me) where that will shake out. It may also depend on the outcome of the Greyjoy plot. I was pretty surprised they are doing this one, as I'd assumed the show had left it well behind. I'm not complaining because I thought the Greyjoys were really interesting in the books, and I was sorry to see them relatively reduced in the show. But the fact they are showing this implies it will be important in some way, so I'll be interested to see the outcome in the series.

Disclaimer: I have a very hard time keeping the book and show details separate. I read the books years ago, and I've only seen the eps once, since I don't own the Blu-rays. So apologies if I confuse some details.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone else geeky enough to watch "After the Thrones?" Interesting insights and recap.

[Doria]

Anyone else geeky enough to watch "After the Thrones?" Interesting insights and recap.

I don't have HBO. Do you know if those segments are included with the box sets? (I'm coming around to the idea of buying them for myself, despite the fact I've already bought at least one set for my mother each year.)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is the first year they have done the after show

[Doria]

This is the first year they have done the after show

Ah, okay. Thanks for the info.

[bjornolf]

Someone get GRRM on the phone! He needs to hear this idea!




That would be awesome!



Thanks. As an amateur fantasy writer, that means a lot to me. :)

[JasonEvans]

It may also depend on the outcome of the Greyjoy plot. I was pretty surprised they are doing this one, as I'd assumed the show had left it well behind. I'm not complaining because I thought the Greyjoys were really interesting in the books, and I was sorry to see them relatively reduced in the show. But the fact they are showing this implies it will be important in some way, so I'll be interested to see the outcome in the series.

I'm wondering if they brought the Greyjoys back into the series because Theon is now talking about "going home," and if he does go back to the Iron Islands, it would seem he would have a fairly decent claim to the throne.

-Jason "though I'm not sure the Iron born would be too keen on a ruler with no 'franks and beans' down there... if you catch my drift" Evans

[bjornolf]

I'm wondering if they brought the Greyjoys back into the series because Theon is now talking about "going home," and if he does go back to the Iron Islands, it would seem he would have a fairly decent claim to the throne.

-Jason "though I'm not sure the Iron born would be too keen on a ruler with no 'franks and beans' down there... if you catch my drift" Evans

I'm only bringing this up because they mention it in the show briefly, but the lord of the iron islands is elected by the ships' captains. Blood claim means very little to them.

[wilson]

I wonder about the professed loyalty of the Karstark who said he'd permanently bailed on the Starks after Robb executed his father. I get that sense for vengeance, so I don't think it likely he'll join up with Jon, necessarily (although part of me thinks the stoic, stable, rule following Northerner might still prevail in him). Still, though, the Karstarks allied themselves with Roose, not Ramsay, he just witnessed Ramsay murder his own father in cold blood, and he obviously wasn't good king material even before that. I could see a double crossing before they even get to the Wall.

In any event, a resurrected Jon with a wildling army including a giant, and the backing and resources Davos and Melisandre could bring, should be able to take down Ramsay Bolton, no? I don't buy that Ramsay has any idea what it is to actually command an army or lead men beyond his small band of terrorists. He's counting on having over half the great houses of the North on his side, but I don't think great houses of the North are big fans of guys like him. And despite the [spoiler if you didn't watch the preview for next episode last night] indication that the Umber head of household shows up to hand over Rickon, I don't think he actually has their support. Didn't the Boltons and Freys slaughter a bunch of Umbers at the red wedding? I could see Winterfell in revolt five minutes after Ramsay's gone, too. Probably all just wishful thinking, though, out of revulsion at Ramsay. Aside, but I just fastforwarded from the moment Walda and the baby showed up. Couldn't watch it.

All that said, there's a wild card offscreen that may be the ultimate determinant in the war for the North. Interesting that we haven't seen him in over half a season, but I recall there was a guy, who'd recently taken over the Vale, raising an army with Lannister permission and preparing to pick off the weakened winner of Bolton vs. Stannis. No idea how he'll respond to news that the mysterious bastard Stark Lord Commander has an army of loyal wildlings, whatever's left of the Night's Watch, Stannis Baratheon's brain trust, and no feeling of being bound to Castle Black. Or that he's been reunited with one of the strongest chess pieces on his board in Sansa, should that come to pass. Interestingly, Baelish won't know, if this reunion occurs, something critical that Jon will, which is that Bran, Rickon and Arya are all alive, whatever effect that may have on things. If the remainder of the North learns that in reality, only one of the Stark children died, and their half brother's become some kind of mythic figure, I could see that having ramifications on loyalties.Mal, I sporked you in this exact space last week. Can't do it again, but yours are some of the best posts in this thread. Great thoughts again.

[Mal]

Thanks for the kind thoughts. You can disabuse yourself of the notion that my musings are in the slightest bit predictive pretty easily if you want to go back over prior seasons' threads, though. I think I'm well below the Mendoza Line in terms of getting things right in the end. ;)

With that out of the way, everyone want a wildly speculative "That would be shocking" theory that's undoubtedly not true but would be kinda awesome? First scene next episode is Jon sitting up on the table and...the Night King emerges from the shadows in the otherwise empty room. Jon's a White Walker, baby!

[Wander]

With that out of the way, everyone want a wildly speculative "That would be shocking" theory that's undoubtedly not true but would be kinda awesome? First scene next episode is Jon sitting up on the table and...the Night King emerges from the shadows in the otherwise empty room. Jon's a White Walker, baby!

I think Stannis is more likely to be a dead-character-turned-White-Walker (we still haven't seen his body). BUT I do think it's a worthwhile discussion on how Jon will be changed. Will he be more ruthless? Will he remember everything of his past life? For example, will he remember Sansa if/when she gets to the wall? I don't think that's a given.

[BLPOG]

I'm only bringing this up because they mention it in the show briefly, but the lord of the iron islands is elected by the ships' captains. Blood claim means very little to them.

Minor quibble...I think the lordship is hereditary. The throne - that is, the title of King - is chosen by kingsmoot of the ship captains. It wouldn't be an issue if Balon Greyjoy hadn't declared himself King of the Iron Islands.

[alteran]

I don't think resistance to fire is all that common, even among the Targaryn clan.

Yep, Viserys wasn't terribly fireproof.

[alteran]

My friend pointed out to me that Theon didn't ACTUALLY say he was going to the Iron Islands. He said he was going "home." Especially notable in that it was the title of the episode. Could he be heading back to Winterfell?

I think there's a decent chance Theon is still Reek, and he's headed back to Ramsey, because G.R.R. Martin. I felt his "I would have taken you all the way to the North..." speech carried a hint of despair, and going back to his doom.

But any of those three is possible.

Which brings me to something else-- we're beginning to leave the books behind. Part of what makes GoT so good is that nobody is safe, anything can happen. But I'm beginning to feel a little like the story is becoming more conventional. Jon was too good to die, (like Rob), but guess what? We're getting him back. Sansa has emerged from her horrific trials stronger-- feels a little more like the journey of the hero, no? A vicious, Game of Thrones journey, obviously, but still. We've got the feel-good pairing of Brienne and Pod rescuing Sansa, that whole fist-pumping scene felt VERY conventional.

In a way, I like this more, because I'm tired of seeing all the characters I care about getting whacked. But I do feel we're moving a bit away from what made GoT special.

But who knows, maybe they'll surprise me again.

[BLPOG]

I think there's a decent chance Theon is still Reek, and he's headed back to Ramsey, because G.R.R. Martin. I felt his "I would have taken you all the way to the North..." speech carried a hint of despair, and going back to his doom.

But any of those three is possible.

Which brings me to something else-- we're beginning to leave the books behind. Part of what makes GoT so good is that nobody is safe, anything can happen. But I'm beginning to feel a little like the story is becoming more conventional. Jon was too good to die, (like Rob), but guess what? We're getting him back. Sansa has emerged from her horrific trials stronger-- feels a little more like the journey of the hero, no? A vicious, Game of Thrones journey, obviously, but still. We've got the feel-good pairing of Brienne and Pod rescuing Sansa, that whole fist-pumping scene felt VERY conventional.

In a way, I like this more, because I'm tired of seeing all the characters I care about getting whacked. But I do feel we're moving a bit away from what made GoT special.

But who knows, maybe they'll surprise me again.

Presumably, someone lives at the end of the story. So in that sense, there must be convergence to "conventionality."

[JasonEvans]

Part of what makes GoT so good is that nobody is safe, anything can happen. But I'm beginning to feel a little like the story is becoming more conventional. Jon was too good to die, (like Rob), but guess what? We're getting him back. Sansa has emerged from her horrific trials stronger-- feels a little more like the journey of the hero, no? A vicious, Game of Thrones journey, obviously, but still. We've got the feel-good pairing of Brienne and Pod rescuing Sansa, that whole fist-pumping scene felt VERY conventional.

In a way, I like this more, because I'm tired of seeing all the characters I care about getting whacked. But I do feel we're moving a bit away from what made GoT special.

But who knows, maybe they'll surprise me again.

I hear you and I would despair if everything built toward a nice happy ending, with Dany and John leading an army of dragons to defeat the White Walkers then getting married and ruling together. Meanwhile Sansa is warden of the North alongside her original husband, Tyrian. Winterfell was protected by Brienne while Arya, having gotten her revenge on all the people who wronged her family, was captain of the King's guard. Yay!!

Except that would suck.

Luckily, I doubt they are going that direction. I think there will be setbacks and I am far from convinced that the "good guys" will get a fully satisfying "win" in the end.

I would also add that, to me, GOT is not great because characters get killed off, it is great because you can never tell how the arc of a character story is going to twist and turn. Think back on Jamie and how he was introduced (incest and pushing Bram out of the window). He was the baddest of the bad and he is now clearly one of the heroes. Cersei was the worst for a long, long time -- I'm not sure she is quite good yet, but I am rooting for her in her battle with the faith/High Sparrow. Littlefinger, conspicuously absent thus far this season, has gone from someone we liked to someone with very sinister motives. Sansa has evolved from a weakling who could be manipulated to a confident and strong woman. Theon... well, he's been just about everything on the show thus far.

That is what I enjoy and what I look forward to. Life is rarely black or white and the folks on GOT tend to be pretty darn grey much of the time. I would not be at all sad if Dany, for example, came back to Mereen and was a total tyrant to the people of Slaver's Bay. All the cities are rebelling against her move to free the slaves and Mereen is a total mess. I would love it if she got on Drogon's back and burned a few cities to the ground. Fun stuff and they would deserve it, even if she had to kill thousands of innocents in the process.

-Jason "we are at a point where we really need more bad guys -- maybe the new Greyjoy who was just introduced last week will turn into a big bad" Evans

[wilson]

...I would also add that, to me, GOT is not great because characters get killed off, it is great because you can never tell how the arc of a character story is going to twist and turn. Think back on Jamie and how he was introduced (incest and pushing Bram out of the window). He was the baddest of the bad and he is now clearly one of the heroes...

-Jason "we are at a point where we really need more bad guys -- maybe the new Greyjoy who was just introduced last week will turn into a big bad" EvansI really agree with the above...it's the shades of grey in which the characters are cast that makes the show great, not the seemingly indiscriminate kill-offs.
One other thing...BraN, people. Bran.

[Jamiemarco]

I now genuinely believe that Daneris and Snow will unite in a marriage ( he likes wild girls) and will make children who will be resistant to fire and will be able to hill white walkers! #snowdragons

[JasonEvans]

One other thing...BraN, people. Bran.

What kind of a world is this where some of the names are really normal (Ned, John, Jamie, Robb to say nothing of unfamiliar spellings of names like Joffrey, and Petyr) and some are just so far from normal (Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Cersei). It is almost like GRRM tried for some and just gave up and picked a random name out of the phone book for others ;)

[Doria]

I now genuinely believe that Daneris and Snow will unite in a marriage ( he likes wild girls) and will make children who will be resistant to fire and will be able to hill white walkers! #snowdragons

Well, I always though this was likely when I read the books, since that would have been a marriage of ice and fire, as it were. But with the theories about his parentage more and more supported by the series, I'm not so sure that wouldn't just be fire and fire. I mean, even if we leave aside the trailers, which seem to show the battle at the Tower of Joy, this last episode that ended in Jon's rebirth began with Bran seeing the past, which heavily featured Lianna. It could be a coincidence, but I'm not too sure.

Also, yeah, Jon is 75% likely to be the exact same guy with some external wounds that mystical healing didn't bother with. But he reasonably could come back as closer to the prophetic character that Mel thought Stannis was (I'm not even going to take a ... uh, stab... at spelling that guy's name). We'll see.

Like Jason, I'm enjoying the character growth. I think Mel has also benefited from the last two eps in that respect. Her depressed conversation with Davis was comedy gold. I mean, almost all these characters have done egregiously terrible things and/or been wimpy, unlikeable punching bags. So rounding them into three-dimensional people is great, regardless of the ending, which... well, the cynic in me pretty much expects will disappoint (only in a plot way; if there are dragons vs. white walkers, I'll be cool with it).

alteran, I definitely got that sense from his speech, which I believe ended with some variant of "even if it cost me my life," but I don't see him going back to Ramsey. I'm hoping he will live at least long enough to get the fatal blow on Ramsey, perhaps assisted by Sansa. Well, that's hoping. I actually expect he'll literally go home to the Iron Islands. I'm sure his sister will be glad to see him. And man, their uncle seems crazier than in the books (maybe I'm not remembering the books accurately enough, but I was pretty surprised by the stream of crazy that came out on the bridge scene).

[Doria]

What kind of a world is this where some of the names are really normal (Ned, John, Jamie, Robb to say nothing of unfamiliar spellings of names like Joffrey, and Petyr) and some are just so far from normal (Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Cersei). It is almost like GRRM tried for some and just gave up and picked a random name out of the phone book for others ;)

Er, it's "Jaime" not "Jamie." Also, "Jon," though that's still real-world normal. ;)

Edit: I think Sersei could fall under the unfamiliar spelling category, since it's pronounced pretty much like "Circe," right?

[mph]

-Jason "though I'm not sure the Iron born would be too keen on a ruler with no 'franks and beans' down there... if you catch my drift" Evans

Maybe Melisandre discovers yet another new power. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, my guess is Alteran is right. The Iron Islands are misdirection and we haven't seen the last of Reek. As with most things GoT, I have almost no confidence in this prediction.

[BLPOG]

Maybe Melisandre discovers yet another new power. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, my guess is Alteran is right. The Iron Islands are misdirection and we haven't seen the last of Reek. As with most things GoT, I have almost no confidence in this prediction.

The ships in Mereen's harbor burned. Guess who's got lots of ships?

[Karl Beem]

Thanks for the kind thoughts. You can disabuse yourself of the notion that my musings are in the slightest bit predictive pretty easily if you want to go back over prior seasons' threads, though. I think I'm well below the Mendoza Line in terms of getting things right in the end. ;)

With that out of the way, everyone want a wildly speculative "That would be shocking" theory that's undoubtedly not true but would be kinda awesome? First scene next episode is Jon sitting up on the table and...the Night King emerges from the shadows in the otherwise empty room. Jon's a White Walker, baby!

No way! His eyes aren't blue.

[mkirsh]

Does the High Sparrow think his faith militant can defeat the king's guard? He sure seems to be courting an all-out battle. I'm not getting what his end game is.



I don't think the Sparrow thinks the faith militant can defeat the king's guard, but is goading them into a conflict as he thinks it could turn the common folk against the royals and start an uprising.


Doesn't everyone? :rolleyes: I've been calling him that since I read the book. :D

Zombie Mountain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Strong



I kind of like "UnGregor," but agree Zombie Mountain > Ser Robert Strong





-Jason "so, did the Dragons not burn Tyrian because he is secretly a Targaryn?"Evans

I do think the story is heavily trending towards "3 Targaryns for 3 dragons," bolstered by Tyrion's scene this week with the dragons, and also fanning the R+L=J flames (ie Jon Snow is half Stark/half Targaryn) with what appears to be a Ned Stark and the Tower of Joy flashback.



And despite the [spoiler if you didn't watch the preview for next episode last night] indication that the Umber head of household shows up to hand over Rickon


I'm not sure if discussion of 'scenes from the next' is too spoiler-y, but I interpreted the scene where someone had a "gift" for Ramsey as someone going to assassinate him. It seem's whenever someone in GOT has things going in their way, when someone presents them with a "gift" it is usually a dagger to the throat. If I were a Lord in Westeros I would have a strict "no gifts" policy; they are nothing but bad news.

[El_Diablo]

What kind of a world is this where some of the names are really normal (Ned, John, Jamie, Robb to say nothing of unfamiliar spellings of names like Joffrey, and Petyr) and some are just so far from normal (Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Cersei). It is almost like GRRM tried for some and just gave up and picked a random name out of the phone book for others ;)

In addition to Jaime and Jon, note that Ned is short for Eddard.

GRRM actually put a lot of thought into naming conventions--moreso with family names but also affecting first names--that break mostly along traditional ethnic lines. There are three main ethinicities in Westeros: the First Men (who migrated during the Bronze Age and are more prevalent in the North, with shorter, simpler family names like Stark and Umber), the Andals (Iron Age invaders from the Andalos hills in west Essos, who conquered pretty much everything but the North and heavily intermarried with the First Men pretty much everywhere but the North), and the Rhoynar (from the Rhoyne River region in south Essos, who settled in Dorne about a thousand years before the show begins and influence names like Doran, Nymeria and Oberyn). The Targaryens (from Valyria, who invaded about 300 years before the show begins) have even more exotic names that contain a lot of "s"s and "ae"s (e.g., Danaerys, Viserys, Rhaegar, Aerys, Baelor, Aemon, Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys have all appeared in or been mentioned in the show). Then there's other ethinicities currently found in Essos, e.g. Dothraki (with names heavy on the "o"s like Drogo, Bharbo, Aggo, Pono) or the Ghiscari in Slaver's Bay (with names like Kraznys mo Nakloz, Razdal mo Eraz, and Hizdahr zo Loraq).

Again, GRRM is a very careful writer and puts a lot of thought into every detail, including etymology of names based on his fictional world and its fictional history.

[mkirsh]

In addition to Jaime and Jon, note that Ned is short for Eddard.

GRRM actually put a lot of thought into naming conventions--moreso with family names but also affecting first names--that break mostly along traditional ethnic lines. There are three main ethinicities in Westeros: the First Men (who migrated during the Bronze Age and are more prevalent in the North, with shorter, simpler family names like Stark and Umber), the Andals (Iron Age invaders from the Andalos hills in west Essos, who conquered pretty much everything but the North and heavily intermarried with the First Men pretty much everywhere but the North), and the Rhoynar (from the Rhoyne River region in south Essos, who settled in Dorne about a thousand years before the show begins and influence names like Doran, Nymeria and Oberyn). The Targaryens (from Valyria, who invaded about 300 years before the show begins) have even more exotic names that contain a lot of "s"s and "ae"s (e.g., Danaerys, Viserys, Rhaegar, Aerys, Baelor, Aemon, Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys have all appeared in or been mentioned in the show). Then there's other ethinicities currently found in Essos, e.g. Dothraki (with names heavy on the "o"s like Drogo, Bharbo, Aggo, Pono) or the Ghiscari in Slaver's Bay (with names like Kraznys mo Nakloz, Razdal mo Eraz, and Hizdahr zo Loraq).

Again, GRRM is a very careful writer and puts a lot of thought into every detail, including etymology of names based on his fictional world and its fictional history.

Can't give you sporks, but thanks for the background

[Wander]

How do people think the High Sparrow vs Cersei battle will play out? It's the most difficult thing for me to predict because Lancel, Margaery, the High Sparrow, Zombie Mountain, Tommen, Loras, the "shame" Septa, Qyburn, and even Cersei herself are all great candidates to die this season. I could see either Cersei or the Sparrows coming out on top.

The only real prediction I have is that Cersei is going to lead to Tommen's death, indirectly or otherwise.

[bjornolf]

What kind of a world is this where some of the names are really normal (Ned, John, Jamie, Robb to say nothing of unfamiliar spellings of names like Joffrey, and Petyr) and some are just so far from normal (Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Cersei). It is almost like GRRM tried for some and just gave up and picked a random name out of the phone book for others ;)

Is Bran that weird? It's short for Brandon Stark. I've known people named Brandon who went by Bran.

[Doria]

How do people think the High Sparrow vs Cersei battle will play out? It's the most difficult thing for me to predict because Lancel, Margaery, the High Sparrow, Zombie Mountain, Tommen, Loras, the "shame" Septa, Qyburn, and even Cersei herself are all great candidates to die this season. I could see either Cersei or the Sparrows coming out on top.

The only real prediction I have is that Cersei is going to lead to Tommen's death, indirectly or otherwise.

Yeah, I'll agree that the witch's fortune is more likely to be true than not. Well, it certainly looks that way at this point.

As regards the High Sparrow/Cersei fight... I don't know. It's peculiar, but I find myself able to recognize that the High Sparrow probably has legitimately helped a bunch of people, despite at least some degree of religious zealotry, and Cersei is a repugnant person in most ways, but I was actually horribly disappointed that Jaime didn't just do everyone a favor last night and kill him. I didn't really think he would, but at that moment, that felt like the best of all possible worlds.

With respects to the Tyrion line of questioning, I forgot--were there some hints that he could have been illegitimate? I thought the dragons were basically just horribly bored and depressed, and thus, gave Tyrion the benefit of the doubt and didn't fry him.

[ncexnyc]

Yeah, I'll agree that the witch's fortune is more likely to be true than not. Well, it certainly looks that way at this point.

As regards the High Sparrow/Cersei fight... I don't know. It's peculiar, but I find myself able to recognize that the High Sparrow probably has legitimately helped a bunch of people, despite at least some degree of religious zealotry, and Cersei is a repugnant person in most ways, but I was actually horribly disappointed that Jaime didn't just do everyone a favor last night and kill him. I didn't really think he would, but at that moment, that felt like the best of all possible worlds.

With respects to the Tyrion line of questioning, I forgot--were there some hints that he could have been illegitimate? I thought the dragons were basically just horribly bored and depressed, and thus, gave Tyrion the benefit of the doubt and didn't fry him.
There are several decent videos up on the web that make a decent case for why both Jon and Tyrion are Targaryens.

[Karl Beem]

There are several decent videos up on the web that make a decent case for why both Jon and Tyrion are Targaryens.

How do you account for Tywin's attitude toward Tyrion?

[JasonEvans]

How do you account for Tywin's attitude toward Tyrion?

Are you implying that Tyrian must be a Lannister because Tywin treated him as a Lannister or that Tywin treated Tyrian with such disdain and lack of respect that Tywin must have suspected Tyrian might not be his legitimate son? There are a number of times over the seasons where Tywin says, "you are no son of mine" or "I cannot prove you are not my son" that seemed like he was disowning a disappointing dwarf on first viewing but with hindsight, now seem like they may be Tywin actually questioning whether Tyrian was the product of his wife having an affair with someone else.

-Jason "as I re-read that graph, it is kinda confusing... sorry" Evans

[Wander]

There are a number of times over the seasons where Tywin says, "you are no son of mine" or "I cannot prove you are not my son" that seemed like he was disowning a disappointing dwarf on first viewing but with hindsight, now seem like they may be Tywin actually questioning whether Tyrian was the product of his wife having an affair with someone else.


Yes. My favorite less-popularized detail of this theory is that Tywin found out his wife was pregnant in an affair, and in trying to induce a stillbirth/abortion somehow caused Tyrion's deformity.

[bjornolf]

T-Y-R-I-O-N people, please!

[JasonEvans]

T-Y-R-I-O-N people, please!

Sorry, for those of us who have not read the books, we have not necessarily seen the names in writing all that much.

[bjornolf]

Is it unfathomable that the Lannisters might just have Targaryen blood through a wife of somebody way back? I mean, heck, House Baratheon was started by a bastard Targaryen.

[wilson]

Is it unfathomable that the Lannisters might just have Targaryen blood through a wife of somebody way back? I mean, heck, House Baratheon was started by a bastard Targaryen.I've read this floated as a fan theory in a couple of places. Some theorize that Tyrion is not the secret Lannister-Targaryen, but in fact that Jaime and Cersei are (and that Tyrion is possibly Tywin's only biological son). This would render the entire recent Baratheon line a Targaryen dynasty, rather than a Baratheon one. Interesting thoughts.

[ncexnyc]

Are you implying that Tyrian must be a Lannister because Tywin treated him as a Lannister or that Tywin treated Tyrian with such disdain and lack of respect that Tywin must have suspected Tyrian might not be his legitimate son? There are a number of times over the seasons where Tywin says, "you are no son of mine" or "I cannot prove you are not my son" that seemed like he was disowning a disappointing dwarf on first viewing but with hindsight, now seem like they may be Tywin actually questioning whether Tyrian was the product of his wife having an affair with someone else.

-Jason "as I re-read that graph, it is kinda confusing... sorry" Evans

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. The most compelling video strings all of these scenes together along with a few more to make the case that Tyrion is indeed a Targaryen.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

sorry, for those of us who have not read the books, we have not necessarily seen the names in writing all that much.

Sorta like T-H-O-R-N-T-O-N?

[Doria]

Is it unfathomable that the Lannisters might just have Targaryen blood through a wife of somebody way back? I mean, heck, House Baratheon was started by a bastard Targaryen.

Well, if Westeros is anything like the real world, all the royal houses on the main continent, at the very least, would probably be interrelated somewhere along the line, right? I guess the Targaryens might be a bit of an exception to this, as the point is made that their custom is to marry each other, but still the odds are pretty good that everyone is interrelated if you go back far enough (logically speaking).

[JasonEvans]

Yep, Viserys wasn't terribly fireproof.

http://49.media.tumblr.com/6f0e8f8583be9f29d2a41bb14358a21f/tumblr_mv4gdpklsu1qakm6lo4_r1_250.gif http://direct.westeros.org/images/thumb/2/2f/HBOGolden_Crown.png/350px-HBOGolden_Crown.png

-Jason "probably the moment where I truly became hooked on the show" Evans

[bjornolf]

http://49.media.tumblr.com/6f0e8f8583be9f29d2a41bb14358a21f/tumblr_mv4gdpklsu1qakm6lo4_r1_250.gif http://direct.westeros.org/images/thumb/2/2f/HBOGolden_Crown.png/350px-HBOGolden_Crown.png

-Jason "probably the moment where I truly became hooked on the show" Evans

Of course, having molten gold poured over your head isn't quite the same as death by fire.

[bjornolf]

Well, if Westeros is anything like the real world, all the royal houses on the main continent, at the very least, would probably be interrelated somewhere along the line, right? I guess the Targaryens might be a bit of an exception to this, as the point is made that their custom is to marry each other, but still the odds are pretty good that everyone is interrelated if you go back far enough (logically speaking).

Yes, but looking at the family trees, not ALL the Targaryens married their siblings. And Tywin Lannister married his first cousin.

[Bostondevil]

Spoiler alert - I'm asking a question about the most recent episode, S6:E2 Home. See below.
















I had to leave the room because there are some things I am unwilling to watch - did they actually show a baby being eaten by dogs?

[Blue in the Face]

No..

[JasonEvans]

Spoiler alert - I'm asking a question about the most recent episode, S6:E2 Home. See below.

In this thread, once an episode has aired you can ask any question about it. There is no such thing as spoilers for an already aired episode.

[BLPOG]

In this thread, once an episode has aired you can ask any question about it. There is no such thing as spoilers for an already aired episode.

But there is also always the [spoiler] tag if anyone wants to play it safe...

[alteran]

http://49.media.tumblr.com/6f0e8f8583be9f29d2a41bb14358a21f/tumblr_mv4gdpklsu1qakm6lo4_r1_250.gif http://direct.westeros.org/images/thumb/2/2f/HBOGolden_Crown.png/350px-HBOGolden_Crown.png

-Jason "probably the moment where I truly became hooked on the show" Evans

"He was no Dragon. Fire cannot kill the Dragon."

Totally. That's when Daenerys became a total Nate James.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No comments yet on Jon Snow's mic drop? Dayum.

[Wander]

No comments yet on Jon Snow's mic drop? Dayum.

I wasn't sure what they would do with Jon, but his "F this S" attitude is perfect. Good decision.

The Bran visions are a nice way to do "flashbacks," especially in showing that the way history is remembered is not quite accurate. That said, I think it was a mistake to drag out the tower reveal. We all know what's in that damn tower. Time to reveal it.

Speaking of theories, note that this episode lent credence to the crazy conspiracy theory involving Bran time traveling, and the less crazy theory about a certain one-on-one fight that will happen later in the season.

You guys are probably all going to think I'm crazy, but I actually think Rickon is safe for a little while. It just seems the show was trying a LITTLE too hard to convince us how evil Ramsey was, and that of course he'd kill anyone, etc. Osha is toast though.

[Mike Corey]

I think the key for Rickon will be whether or not the SOB of the North will consider Rickon to be leverage, or to be a toy. He lost one, and it's unclear whether he ultimately appreciated his father's attempt at underscoring her strategic importance.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You guys are probably all going to think I'm crazy, but I actually think Rickon is safe for a little while. It just seems the show was trying a LITTLE too hard to convince us how evil Ramsey was, and that of course he'd kill anyone, etc. Osha is toast though.

Osha is a tough cookie. She may have a role to play yet.

[Wander]

One more note. The death I most want to see now is not Sansa or Theon or Jon torturing Ramsey or Zombie Mountain smashing the High Sparrow's brains out. It is Ghost painfully ripping apart that new Umber lord. I absolutely need to see that. It is long past time for the remaining direwolves to kick butt.

[JNort]

Feel like this episode was a great set up episode.

A) Jon Snow with the mic drop, "My watch has ended" (will he bump into Sansa? What's his plan?)

B) Cersie basically saying she will demand trial by combat. (Show writers prob dropped this for the bug fight we expect)

C) Arya has her eye sight back (finally)(what's next for training)

D) Tyrion sets a meeting to stop the killing (hopefully)

E) Tower of Joy..... ughhhhhhhhhhhh really? Give me 2 more minutes please!.

F) Rickon has just met Ramsey. (I don't think that was Shaggydog, and this is a double cros on Ramsey)

[Karl Beem]

I wasn't sure what they would do with Jon, but his "F this S" attitude is perfect. Good decision.

The Bran visions are a nice way to do "flashbacks," especially in showing that the way history is remembered is not quite accurate. That said, I think it was a mistake to drag out the tower reveal. We all know what's in that damn tower. Time to reveal it.


Why did the woman in the tower cry out when Ser Two swords was killed? Is he Jon's father?

[bjornolf]

Why did the woman in the tower cry out when Ser Two swords was killed? Is he Jon's father?

The cry was after he died. I thought it was a woman crying out from birthing pains, but I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!

I LOVED Jon's line at the end. Somehow, he'll miss Sansa. She's the queen of ships passing in the night.

I also wonder if that was Shaggydog. If it was, he's WAY smaller than Ghost. Heck, he's way smaller than Grey Wind was even 3+ seasons ago after the Red Wedding.

I've enjoyed seeing young Ned. He doesn't look quite how I expected though. I never understood why, in movies or TV, when it's 3+ on one, everybody always strikes for the middle of the chest, the most armored point, at the exact same time. Staggering attacks and striking for weak points would end these fights much more quickly, as the sword(s) of the one can't break the laws of physics, no matter how good they are. Plus, the one always seems to take a long time with his sword in an enemy without anyone stabbing him from the sides (Ned had chances when the second and third of his four men died, and he didn't even try to take advantage of it. Crazy.)

[davekay1971]

Llysa Stark is in the tower...giving birth to Jon. Not sure who Two Swords was, but Rhaegar left him there to guard her. That's my best guess.

[bjornolf]

Llysa Stark is in the tower...giving birth to Jon. Not sure who Two Swords was, but Rhaegar left him there to guard her. That's my best guess.

I'm a little confused about that too. Ser Arthur Dayne was the last Sword of the Morning, a title given to great knights of House Dayne worthy of carrying their ancestral sword, named Dawn. However, that knight was wearing the armor of a Targaryen, so I'm confused.

Also, you mean Lyanna, right? Llysa was a Tully, then Jon Arryn's wife, so an Arryn, but never a Stark.

[bjornolf]

I think the key for Rickon will be whether or not the SOB of the North will consider Rickon to be leverage, or to be a toy. He lost one, and it's unclear whether he ultimately appreciated his father's attempt at underscoring her strategic importance.

SOB = Son Of Bolton? :rolleyes:

[El_Diablo]

I'm a little confused about that too. Ser Arthur Dayne was the last Sword of the Morning, a title given to great knights of House Dayne worthy of carrying their ancestral sword, named Dawn. However, that knight was wearing the armor of a Targaryen, so I'm confused.

Also, you mean Lyanna, right? Llysa was a Tully, then Jon Arryn's wife, so an Arryn, but never a Stark.

Yes, that was Arthur Dayne. The Targaryen crest is likely on the armor because he was a member of the kingsguard (hence the white cloak and the discussion about not being present on the Trident, where Rhaegar was slain).

[bjornolf]

Yes, that was Arthur Dayne. The Targaryen crest is likely on the armor because he was a member of the kingsguard (hence the white cloak and the discussion about not being present on the Trident, where Rhaegar was slain).

Ah, good point. I forgot about that. Being in the Targaryen Kingsguard, he might have the dragon armor. Do the Baratheon kingsguards have stags on them? I missed that. I thought it was plain.

[JasonEvans]

Ser Arthur Dayne was the last Sword of the Morning, a title given to great knights of House Dayne worthy of carrying their ancestral sword, named Dawn.

For a dude who was on-screen for all of 4 minutes, I am pretty sure I would sign up right now for an entire series where we just follow the Sword of the Morning around. Dude was a freaking awesome show! Not often it is 1-on-4 and you are pretty sure the 4 are in major trouble.

Loved that the legend of Ned Stark defeating Ser Arthur Dayne was all a fabrication (though it was Ned who struck the final blow).

I'm more than a little surprised that Jamie and Cersi are having so much trouble dealing with uncle Kevan who is now Hand of the King. They are all Lannisters and you would think their interests would be aligned, at least a little bit. I guess Kevan does not want to share power with Cersi (especially after she opposed him being named Hand after Tywin died), but I would think the entire small council would fear Cersi and Jamie's influence on Tommen. I mean, can't Tommen kick all of them off the small council if he wants? And if there are 2 Tyrells on the council (Lady Ollena and her son, Lord Mace), you would think the council would be making a bigger effort to free Margery and Loras (is Loras even a character any more? He's barely been on since he was arrested).

I loved us seeing Arya getting better at fighting while blind, but I sorta wish the show had done more to show us how she was doing this -- maybe amplify the sounds of her opponent's feet moving or the whoosh of the staff flying through the air before she avoided it. Instead, we just see that she is able to fight while blind with no real explanation for how. Also, does anyone think Arya really has abandoned her old persona and her desire to get revenge on the folks who wronged her family? I hope not.

-Jason "surprised they titled this episode 'Oathbreaker' as I don't think anyone believes John broke his oath" Evans

[El_Diablo]

Ah, good point. I forgot about that. Being in the Targaryen Kingsguard, he might have the dragon armor. Do the Baratheon kingsguards have stags on them? I missed that. I thought it was plain.

Yes, they have antlers:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LyiTHNXrr2Y/maxresdefault.jpg

http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/273/9022b7c0-b56d-0132-46b7-0e9062a7590a.jpg?

[bjornolf]

Thanks. Yup, definitely antlers. Missed it.

[mkirsh]

-Jason "surprised they titled this episode 'Oathbreaker' as I don't think anyone believes John broke his oath" Evans

I think it was a call out to the "oaths" in the show more generally - Roose Bolton's oath to Robb, the Umbers' oath to the Starks, Sam's oath to the Knightswatch (and to Gili, where he just changed the deal), Maester Qyburn breaking his maesterly oath to not explore black magic, the events in the flashback that were the result of the original Oathbreaker, Jamie Lannister, etc (and I'm sure I'm missing others just from this week), all in addition to Jon's oath to the Watch. I also wonder if Arya's "oath" to be no one will be upheld. Basically, everyone in GoT places such high value on these sworn "oaths", but they are extremely fungible, with history being written by the winners (as the Bran flashback shows).

[Karl Beem]

I loved us seeing Arya getting better at fighting while blind, but I sorta wish the show had done more to show us how she was doing this -- maybe amplify the sounds of her opponent's feet moving or the whoosh of the staff flying through the air before she avoided it. Instead, we just see that she is able to fight while blind with no real explanation for how.

-Jason "surprised they titled this episode 'Oathbreaker' as I don't think anyone believes John broke his oath" Evans

She fights by the sense of smell.

[Doria]

She fights by the sense of smell.

Arya = Daredevil confirmed?

It's a little weird with the Shaggydog thing. I thought Ghost was supposed to be the smallest of the wolves, right? So maybe that's a fakeout? Or maybe the show has just forgotten the scale of the respective wolves?

And yes, I'd be down for a series with Dayne. Even reading the books, that was probably the character we didn't meet that I most wanted to know about.

[ncexnyc]

After two weeks with the OMG Meter hitting nearly 100, it was no surprise to me that last night's episode would come up a bit short when it came to the wow factor. As others have already said this episode was a table setter for things to come.

The flashback scene was great. We learned that there was more to the Reed/Stark connection than we were led to believe and we also leaned that Ned wasn't quite the man we thought he was. As for the up thread comment about the 4 on 1 fight scene, all I can say is try watching some more Kung-Fu movies, as that's just the way action movies roll.

Tyrion and friends are progressing smoothly and while Slaver's Bay appears to be back to normal before the arrival of our favorite Khaleesi, I have a feeling we'll be seeing a least one city laid to waste by dragon fire before the end of the season.

Speaking of things going smoothly, just when things start looking up for the good guys, we have Ricken falling into the hands of our favorite sadist. I'm not buying into this being a trick by the head Umber man, that would be to easy. We need some drama and something at stake when Jon marches south.

So what's up with Tommen? Will he axe the High Sparrow or will he throw Cersei and Jaimie a major curve?

[JNort]

After two weeks with the OMG Meter hitting nearly 100, it was no surprise to me that last night's episode would come up a bit short when it came to the wow factor. As others have already said this episode was a table setter for things to come.

The flashback scene was great. We learned that there was more to the Reed/Stark connection than we were led to believe and we also leaned that Ned wasn't quite the man we thought he was. As for the up thread comment about the 4 on 1 fight scene, all I can say is try watching some more Kung-Fu movies, as that's just the way action movies roll.

Tyrion and friends are progressing smoothly and while Slaver's Bay appears to be back to normal before the arrival of our favorite Khaleesi, I have a feeling we'll be seeing a least one city laid to waste by dragon fire before the end of the season.

Speaking of things going smoothly, just when things start looking up for the good guys, we have Ricken falling into the hands of our favorite sadist. I'm not buying into this being a trick by the head Umber man, that would be to easy. We need some drama and something at stake when Jon marches south.

So what's up with Tommen? Will he axe the High Sparrow or will he throw Cersei and Jaimie a major curve?

yeah but the 1 vs whatever fight scenes in Kung fu movies generally look fake and don't feel real or the bad guys come in one at a time. This 1 vs 4 actually felt like it was possible and he legitimately fought 1 v 4

As for Rickon, I still think it's a setup of some sort. I mean these northern houses were screwed by the Bolton's also. These families have also always gotten on well with the Starks in control of the north so why would they want the proven family (Starks) thrown out for a backstabbing and traitorous family (Bolton's) being led by a psycho basterd of said family.

[davekay1971]

I'm a little confused about that too. Ser Arthur Dayne was the last Sword of the Morning, a title given to great knights of House Dayne worthy of carrying their ancestral sword, named Dawn. However, that knight was wearing the armor of a Targaryen, so I'm confused.

Also, you mean Lyanna, right? Llysa was a Tully, then Jon Arryn's wife, so an Arryn, but never a Stark.

My bad. Yep. Lyanna.

[davekay1971]

Speaking of things going smoothly, just when things start looking up for the good guys, we have Ricken falling into the hands of our favorite sadist. I'm not buying into this being a trick by the head Umber man, that would be to easy. We need some drama and something at stake when Jon marches south.



So my first thought was that Rickon will be great leverage for Ramsey and would simply motivate and/or complicate Jon's attempt to retake Winterfell and the North. Then I remembered two things.

1) Ramsey is totally unstable and might, much like Joffrey, throw away perfectly good ransom/insurance on an impulse of sadism, rage, and cruelty. And Ramsey, unlike Joffrey, doesn't have a single person to try to stop him from doing so.

2) This is Game of Thrones, in which the writers have no compunction about having an infant ripped apart by dogs or a young girl burned alive. So why would i think for an instant that Rickon isn't likely to be killed.

So now I wonder if the last two Stark men are (1) a cripple well north of the Wall who seems to be on a character arc that does not aim toward being a mighty lord of men and (2) a child in the hands of a sadistic murderer; thus leaving the avenue wide open for Jon to become Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, Ally and nephew of Danaerys, etc etc etc...

Or, to put it more succinctly, I think there's a really good chance Rickon gets killed in the course of this season.

[DukeDevil]

Are you implying that Tyrian must be a Lannister because Tywin treated him as a Lannister or that Tywin treated Tyrian with such disdain and lack of respect that Tywin must have suspected Tyrian might not be his legitimate son? There are a number of times over the seasons where Tywin says, "you are no son of mine" or "I cannot prove you are not my son" that seemed like he was disowning a disappointing dwarf on first viewing but with hindsight, now seem like they may be Tywin actually questioning whether Tyrian was the product of his wife having an affair with someone else.

-Jason "as I re-read that graph, it is kinda confusing... sorry" Evans

My main reason for thinking that Tyrion is a Targarian comes from the whole scene where (don't know if this counts as a spoiler as it's in the first book, but if you don't want any details from the books don't read on) Tyrion describes how he designed his own special saddle so he could ride horses, and how he was going to get one made for Bran after he became paralyzed. I suspect he'll end up being one of the three to ride a dragon and he'll have to make his own saddle to do so.

[Karl Beem]

Who stabbed Ser Dayne in the back?

[bjornolf]

Who stabbed Ser Dayne in the back?

It was Howland Reed. He was the first of the Stark allies to fall. He took one to the gut, but, obviously, wasn't dead yet. Guess he recovered enough to pull out his dagger and shiv Dayne when his back was turned.

[ncexnyc]

yeah but the 1 vs whatever fight scenes in Kung fu movies generally look fake and don't feel real or the bad guys come in one at a time. This 1 vs 4 actually felt like it was possible and he legitimately fought 1 v 4

As for Rickon, I still think it's a setup of some sort. I mean these northern houses were screwed by the Bolton's also. These families have also always gotten on well with the Starks in control of the north so why would they want the proven family (Starks) thrown out for a backstabbing and traitorous family (Bolton's) being led by a psycho basterd of said family.

He legitimately fought 1 v4? Sorry, but it's still a TV show. Things are done for dramatic effect all the time. Grey Worm, Ser Jorah, and the head of the Second Sons holding off the whole guard force of a city and on the opposite end of the spectrum we have an untrained group of the Sons of Harpy cutting the Unsullied to shreds.

Now your thoughts on Rickon are interesting, but I seriously doubt anyone would risk the life of a Stark by putting them into the hands of a man who loves to flay people for fun.

[JNort]

He legitimately fought 1 v4? Sorry, but it's still a TV show. Things are done for dramatic effect all the time. Grey Worm, Ser Jorah, and the head of the Second Sons holding off the whole guard force of a city and on the opposite end of the spectrum we have an untrained group of the Sons of Harpy cutting the Unsullied to shreds.

Now your thoughts on Rickon are interesting, but I seriously doubt anyone would risk the life of a Stark by putting them into the hands of a man who loves to flay people for fun.

I'm not sure you got what I was saying about a legitimate 1 v 4. Those other examples you listed weren't anything like this 1v4 first of all. What I was getting at was that the choreography of that fight made it seem like Dayne could actually fight 4 men at once with a chance to win and it not feel forced for dramatic affect.

In a normal show or movie the 4 guys would all have come in 1 at a time or wouldn't have worked together. This fight they did fight together and it didn't seem overly fake.

[El_Diablo]

My main reason for thinking that Tyrion is a Targarian comes from the whole scene where (don't know if this counts as a spoiler as it's in the first book, but if you don't want any details from the books don't read on) Tyrion describes how he designed his own special saddle so he could ride horses, and how he was going to get one made for Bran after he became paralyzed. I suspect he'll end up being one of the three to ride a dragon and he'll have to make his own saddle to do so.

That's not a show spoiler--Tyrion gives his saddle schematics to Robb in the fourth episode of Season 1 (entitled "Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things"). Bran later uses the saddle; it is when he is riding that he is confronted by Osha and some other wildlings.

[A-Tex Devil]

I don't think Rickon dies, because I think Bran ultimately comes back to Winterfell. The Three Eyed Raven basically said that Bran would ultimately leave that tree when he was ready, right? I guess I envision Bran ultimately being Lord of Winterfell again with John Snow destined for bigger and better things.

I do think that Umber is setting up Ramsay, potentially for a scene similar to the Irish in Braveheart when John brings the Wildlings down there to take back Winterfell. I'd see it as an homage and not a rip off, and am kind of hoping for it.

[Wander]

So my first thought was that Rickon will be great leverage for Ramsey and would simply motivate and/or complicate Jon's attempt to retake Winterfell and the North. Then I remembered two things.

1) Ramsey is totally unstable and might, much like Joffrey, throw away perfectly good ransom/insurance on an impulse of sadism, rage, and cruelty. And Ramsey, unlike Joffrey, doesn't have a single person to try to stop him from doing so.

2) This is Game of Thrones, in which the writers have no compunction about having an infant ripped apart by dogs or a young girl burned alive. So why would i think for an instant that Rickon isn't likely to be killed.

So now I wonder if the last two Stark men are (1) a cripple well north of the Wall who seems to be on a character arc that does not aim toward being a mighty lord of men and (2) a child in the hands of a sadistic murderer; thus leaving the avenue wide open for Jon to become Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, Ally and nephew of Danaerys, etc etc etc...

Or, to put it more succinctly, I think there's a really good chance Rickon gets killed in the course of this season.

After my initial post, I've become more open to Umber planning to backstab Ramsey. But note that Umber's future betrayal wouldn't necessarily imply Shaggydog is alive or that Rickon is safe.

BTW, I would caution everyone in assuming that Jon and Dany are going to eventually team up. I think it's just as likely they'll be enemies. And I'm still open to the possibility (not likely, but still) that Dany never makes it to Westeros.

[Mal]

I don't think Rickon dies, because I think Bran ultimately comes back to Winterfell.

I don't follow the logic here. What difference would whether Rickon's dead or alive make regarding Bran eventually returning home?

[JNort]

After my initial post, I've become more open to Umber planning to backstab Ramsey. But note that Umber's future betrayal wouldn't necessarily imply Shaggydog is alive or that Rickon is safe.

BTW, I would caution everyone in assuming that Jon and Dany are going to eventually team up. I think it's just as likely they'll be enemies. And I'm still open to the possibility (not likely, but still) that Dany never makes it to Westeros.

You arn't the first person I've seen with this... I guess I'll call it a theory even though you didn't say much. But anyone who thinks Dany and Jon will be enemies is absolutely crazy. Everything points towards an alliance or maybe even more.

If you have reasons why you think otherwise I would love to hear about it (pm if it contains spoilers so as not to ruin it for anyone else).

Also don't understand the whole possibly of not going to Westeros theory either case once again nothing points towards her staying where she is and there is plenty of evidence she heads to Westeros.

PS I just hope Shaggy dog isn't dead :(

[JNort]

Anyone got any guesses as to how all this ends for our main characters? I'll share my thoughts if anyone is interested (most people arn't :p)

Jon: Warden of the North, Lord Stark

Dany: Queen of the 7 kingdoms

Sansa: Warden of the West and ruler of the Vale

Arya: Queens guards

Jaime: A heroic satisfy death

Cersei: dead by Jaime's hand

Tyrion: Warden of the West Lord of Casterly Rock

Brienne: Captain of Sansa's guard

Sam: Maester to Winterfell

Little Finger: Dead after briefly ruling the 7 kingdoms after Tommen's death

Vary: No change, master whisperer for the queen

Podrick: Queensguard

These arn't my only thoughts btw. Some of these are dead or doing other things in my other thoughts. I still think there is a great chance Tyrion or Dany die.

[El_Diablo]

You arn't the first person I've seen with this... I guess I'll call it a theory even though you didn't say much. But anyone who thinks Dany and Jon will be enemies is absolutely crazy. Everything points towards an alliance or maybe even more.

If you have reasons why you think otherwise I would love to hear about it (pm if it contains spoilers so as not to ruin it for anyone else).

Also don't understand the whole possibly of not going to Westeros theory either case once again nothing points towards her staying where she is and there is plenty of evidence she heads to Westeros.

PS I just hope Shaggy dog isn't dead :(

There have been hints in the show (and even more in the books) that Jon may have a superior claim to the Iron Throne than Daenerys. If that turns out to be the case, then she may not be willing to simply accept it and abandon what has been a large party of her motivation and identity.

There is also the non-zero chance that Daenerys breaks bad. Recent foreshadowing: Barristan comparing her to the Mad King, Daario counseling her that rulers are "butchers or meat," her growing acceptance of the use of cruelty for retributive purposes (putting the masters on the crosses, roasting a noble with her dragon).

[Wander]

You arn't the first person I've seen with this... I guess I'll call it a theory even though you didn't say much. But anyone who thinks Dany and Jon will be enemies is absolutely crazy. Everything points towards an alliance or maybe even more.

If you have reasons why you think otherwise I would love to hear about it (pm if it contains spoilers so as not to ruin it for anyone else).

Also don't understand the whole possibly of not going to Westeros theory either case once again nothing points towards her staying where she is and there is plenty of evidence she heads to Westeros.


No spoilers involved. I just think all the good guys teaming up against the White Walkers goes against the spirit of the show. I used to think "Ice and Fire" referred to Jon and Dany... but if Jon is part Targ, then he himself is the "Ice and Fire." Then the White Walkers and Dany/her dragons make up another case of "Ice and Fire".... two forces invading Westeros from the north and south.

As for the crazier theory, we're currently in Season 6 of an 8 season show, and Dany isn't even close to Westeros. That's like Luke Skywalker not beginning to fight the Empire until an hour into Return of the Jedi. I think GRRM had intentions of Dany in Westeros originally, there's just a small part of me that wonders if he changed his mind, and the ending of the series is Dany making a big decision to stay in Essos. Tyrion even says something to this effect in the show when he meets her: "perhaps this is where you can do the most good." I don't think this is likely, just a thought...

[Deslok]

Dany's return to Westeros seems assured. I think the question is, does she stay in Westeros after helping against a climactic battle against the White Walkers. Or, does she perhaps decide, as someone unable to bear an heir and so a poor choice to sit on the Iron Throne, to leave Westeros and go off in search of various rumors of dragon eggs. That way, she does not just give rise to three dragons, but helps them return as a species and is the "Mother of Dragons". Jon either is the one to take the throne or dies a heroic death to save Westeros. Jaime repeats his "unforgivable" act by killing Cersei when she tries to torch King's Landing. Tyrion ends up either being the Hand of the King(and I'm not sure we will end up with one) or returns to rule Casterly Rock. Arya belongs to the many faced god, is somehow able to kill one of those who wronged her family, but is never part of the Westeros community again. I suspect the White Walkers will be defeated, but not destroyed, and the Wildlings will effectively become the new Night's Watch, while maintaining communities along the wall. Sansa returns to rule Winterfell(though I'm left wondering who will rule the Eyrie when Robin dies. And Bran will play his role in the climactic battle, and then return to the Children of the Forest and disappear from the community, becoming the new 3 eyed raven.

Anyway, that's some quick thoughts on how things end up, not real sure how things resolve in Dorne or Pyke, but I don't see thing having much more significance beyond some failed plots going forward.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I haven't seen anyone supporting my new theory yet so here it is... Little finger and house Umber are in league with each other. We have yet to see littlefinger this season and the perfect chance is for him to start sneaking his way into the North. First by using the Umbers to get rid of Ramsey. Or perhaps he doesn't even know that Sansa is gone from Winterfell yet, which seem unlikely because he always knows everything. But lets say he doesn't know that Sansa is gone, and he is using the Umbers to betray House Bolton and then take over winterfell for himself. We already know he has plans for the North, this could be the beginning of those plans.

[Wander]

Anyone got any guesses as to how all this ends for our main characters? I'll share my thoughts if anyone is interested (most people arn't :p)


I like this game.

Rickon: dead, but not by Ramsey
Jamie: dead
Cersei: dead, by Jamie
Tommen: dead, by Cersei
Littlefinger: big villain of the series, in league with White Walkers, eventually dead
Sansa: dead
Dany: dead immediately after stepping foot on Westeros
Jon: king
Bran: warden of the north
Tyrion: hand of the king
Brienne: kingsguard
Arya: alive, just hanging out, after killing a major character or two, including someone we think of as a good guy
Sam: grand maester
Margaery: alive (not really, but a few seasons ago I made a long term bet with a friend where we each "drafted" 5 characters, the winner is the one with the most alive at the end of the show, and for some reason I picked her, so I feel obliged to stick with it even though it's not looking great right now)

[Mike Corey]

I think Rickon survives, but that he will suffer a traumatic injury to his leg at the hands of Ramsay.

[BLPOG]

Littlefinger: big villain of the series, in league with White Walkers, eventually dead

I find myself scratching my head when reading any of these "in league with the White Walkers" theories, particularly involving someone like Littlefinger. Littlefinger is an opportunist, certainly, but where is the opportunity to ally with the WW? He probably doesn't even believe they exist; most people outside the North consider them to be tall tales. It seems to me that the closest anyone has or will come to being in cahoots with the WWs is Craster, whose "alliance" would be more accurately characterized as offering tribute and was obviously aimed at self-preservation.

[Mal]

Little finger and house Umber are in league with each other.

Very intriguing possibility. I'd love to see this. A part of me just thinks (hopes?), even after seeing Rickon delivered up to Ramsay, that junior Umber is bs'ing about Wildling raids being so bad he's turned on the Starks because Jon's responsible. And Trojan Horsing right through Ramsay's weaknesses about 5 minutes after Roose, the brains of the family, is gone? Pure Baelish, right?

Potentially interesting side note of support for your theory: last episode was titled "Oathbreaker." You know who definitely would not be breaking an oath by killing Ramsay Bolton? A guy who looks like a younger Liam Neeson who walked into Winterfell all cocksure and diffident and steadfastly refused to bend the knee and pledge his allegiance to him.

I'm also interested to see, regardless whether they're there on a mission or have truly been turned over as tribute, what Osha does here. If she's not immediately killed or maimed, she's both clever enough and tough enough to pretend to be Ramsay's next Miranda while scheming a way to arrange his death at the hands of his dogs. Or to just, well, let's just say do other things that might cause him great pain. She is most certainly not going in blind here.

Spoiler from preview for Episode 4: Littlefinger is very much aware that Sansa's out and about, telling Robyn as much. Probably talking/manipulating him (depending on how sincere is his wish to "save" Sansa from Bolton hunters vs. his wish to lay waste to Bolton's army) into letting him march north with the Vale's army.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Very intriguing possibility. I'd love to see this. A part of me just thinks (hopes?), even after seeing Rickon delivered up to Ramsay, that junior Umber is bs'ing about Wildling raids being so bad he's turned on the Starks because Jon's responsible. And Trojan Horsing right through Ramsay's weaknesses about 5 minutes after Roose, the brains of the family, is gone? Pure Baelish, right?

Potentially interesting side note of support for your theory: last episode was titled "Oathbreaker." You know who definitely would not be breaking an oath by killing Ramsay Bolton? A guy who looks like a younger Liam Neeson who walked into Winterfell all cocksure and diffident and steadfastly refused to bend the knee and pledge his allegiance to him.

I'm also interested to see, regardless whether they're there on a mission or have truly been turned over as tribute, what Osha does here. If she's not immediately killed or maimed, she's both clever enough and tough enough to pretend to be Ramsay's next Miranda while scheming a way to arrange his death at the hands of his dogs. Or to just, well, let's just say do other things that might cause him great pain. She is most certainly not going in blind here.

Spoiler from preview for Episode 4: Littlefinger is very much aware that Sansa's out and about, telling Robyn as much. Probably talking/manipulating him (depending on how sincere is his wish to "save" Sansa from Bolton hunters vs. his wish to lay waste to Bolton's army) into letting him march north with the Vale's army.

Yea I dont even know the young Umbers name, but hes already one of my new favorite characters whether he turns out to be a villain or a good guy, I assume he will end up somewhere in between which is right where I like my characters to be. Hopefully he gets more screen time before he is killed off by somebody.

[bjornolf]

Very intriguing possibility. I'd love to see this. A part of me just thinks (hopes?), even after seeing Rickon delivered up to Ramsay, that junior Umber is bs'ing about Wildling raids being so bad he's turned on the Starks because Jon's responsible. And Trojan Horsing right through Ramsay's weaknesses about 5 minutes after Roose, the brains of the family, is gone? Pure Baelish, right?

Potentially interesting side note of support for your theory: last episode was titled "Oathbreaker." You know who definitely would not be breaking an oath by killing Ramsay Bolton? A guy who looks like a younger Liam Neeson who walked into Winterfell all cocksure and diffident and steadfastly refused to bend the knee and pledge his allegiance to him.

I'm also interested to see, regardless whether they're there on a mission or have truly been turned over as tribute, what Osha does here. If she's not immediately killed or maimed, she's both clever enough and tough enough to pretend to be Ramsay's next Miranda while scheming a way to arrange his death at the hands of his dogs. Or to just, well, let's just say do other things that might cause him great pain. She is most certainly not going in blind here.

Spoiler from preview for Episode 4: Littlefinger is very much aware that Sansa's out and about, telling Robyn as much. Probably talking/manipulating him (depending on how sincere is his wish to "save" Sansa from Bolton hunters vs. his wish to lay waste to Bolton's army) into letting him march north with the Vale's army.

Didn't Theon swear to kill the guy blowing the horn back in season 2 even if it was the last thing he ever did? Is there a chance that was Ramsay?

[Wander]

I find myself scratching my head when reading any of these "in league with the White Walkers" theories, particularly involving someone like Littlefinger. Littlefinger is an opportunist, certainly, but where is the opportunity to ally with the WW? He probably doesn't even believe they exist; most people outside the North consider them to be tall tales. It seems to me that the closest anyone has or will come to being in cahoots with the WWs is Craster, whose "alliance" would be more accurately characterized as offering tribute and was obviously aimed at self-preservation.

I admit this is my one "tinfoil hat theory*". That said, I just go back to the idea that I think it would be pretty un-GoT-like if the White Walkers are just some mindless LoTR-like orc army. While I won't go so far as to say they aren't bad guys, they're going to be thinking, intelligent creatures. I also think the series wants to have one character who's a major villain from start to finish and was manipulating events the whole time, and with Tywin gone, Littlefinger and Varys are really the only options. And I like the symmetry of Littlefinger being on the "ice" side with Varys on the "fire" side.

*Another theory that previously fell into tinfoil hat territory that I never believed: that Bran could sorta time travel and kind of affect the past. But now I think it's more likely to be true than false... probably the most important and undertalked about thing that happened last episode.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I never believe Osha would get a shot at Ramsey...

Come on people - thoughts from last night? Seemed that outsidr of Osha, it was Women's Night on GoT.

[BandAlum83]

I never believe Osha would get a shot at Ramsey...

Come on people - thoughts from last night? Seemed that outsidr of Osha, it was Women's Night on GoT.

Danerys Targaryen is back, and is totally badass.

I love this Character!

[SCMatt33]

Danerys Targaryen is back, and is totally badass.

I love this Character!

There really is nothing better on the show than when Dany is a badass.

Also, two Starks in the same place at the same time! I had totally assumed Jon would leave Castle Black before Sansa could get there.

[Wander]

Continuing my Littlefinger conspiracy theory, I think he wrote the letter to Jon and Sansa.

King's Landing is going to have a density of deaths-per-episode going at some point. Lots of characters that are obviously doomed, I'm surprised the body count hasn't started yet. A ton of minor ones like Lancel, but I don't think all of Marg, Cersei, and the Sparrow survive the season together either.

[Mike Corey]

Continuing my Littlefinger conspiracy theory, I think he wrote the letter to Jon and Sansa.

King's Landing is going to have a density of deaths-per-episode going at some point. Lots of characters that are obviously doomed, I'm surprised the body count hasn't started yet. A ton of minor ones like Lancel, but I don't think all of Marg, Cersei, and the Sparrow survive the season together either.

Agreed about Littlefinger. The timing of it, with his manipulation to essentially wrest control of his own army, is just a little too perfect otherwise.

The Sparrow seems to be playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. I have little doubt he'll have anticipated Cersei's maneuvers. Either way, the city's defenses will be down after this "civil war" breaks out.

Curious to see how Daenarys reacts to what's happened under Tyrion's watch--gratitude for a temporary peace, or anger for his impure devotion to abolishing slavery?

Jon Snow's weary. Will that change now that he's agreed to go after Ramsay?

The sisters surely drove this episode, as strong women continue to dominate this season. Even Brienne of Tarth flexed her muscles, and drew the admiring gaze of Tormund! The look she gave...priceless.

[SCMatt33]

Continuing my Littlefinger conspiracy theory, I think he wrote the letter to Jon and Sansa.

I'm not sure about this one. Unless he made an unseen deal with Smalljon Umber, he'd have no way to know about Rickon (If this was part of a deal with Ramsay, there'd be no reason for Littlefinger to write the letter, just let Ramsay do it).

[ncexnyc]

After last week's table setting episode it was nice to have the OMG Meter registering back near max level.

Without a doubt Emilia Clarke has given us some of the biggest and best moments in GoT. Birthing her dragons, rescuing her dragons from the wizards of Qarth, the oh by the way I understood every insult you said about me takeover of Astapor, the fall of Yunkai, and last season's dragon ride.

I think it's also safe to say that we can put to bed all that talk about a Ramsay set-up being in place. Again, no one in their right mind would have put Rickon into harms way.

I should have known they'd drag out the excitement of the flashbacks. Hopefully next week we'll get the answer to the who's your daddy question in regards to Jon Snow.

[A-Tex Devil]

Continuing my Littlefinger conspiracy theory, I think he wrote the letter to Jon and Sansa.

King's Landing is going to have a density of deaths-per-episode going at some point. Lots of characters that are obviously doomed, I'm surprised the body count hasn't started yet. A ton of minor ones like Lancel, but I don't think all of Marg, Cersei, and the Sparrow survive the season together either.

Disagree. I think the *ONE* thing Littlefinger has screwed up was not knowing enough about Ramsay Bolton (he admitted as much to Ramsay). He cut that deal with Roose.

[JasonEvans]

So, why would Ramsay send that letter to John Snow? It is not like the letter gave John a choice. It did not say, "Bring back my wife, and I'l let you and your Wildlings live." No, it said, in essence, "I'm going to kill you and everyone you care about in the most gruesome way possible no matter what you do." Is Ramsay that confident about his ability to win a fight? I guess he thinks the Karstarks and the Umbers, who are the two biggest houses in the North, are both on his side so he doesn't really fear John Snow and his Wildling army at all.

Still, I just don't get why Ramsay wrote the letter. Makes me wonder if Littlefinger might have had a role in it. I should add that it is not at all impossible to imagine that Littlefinger has spies inside Winterfell who could tell him that Rikon was there. Then again, for the most part, it has not been the trend on GOT for stuff to happen behind our back and only later be revealed. If Littlefinger was plotting all this, I think there would have been more hints rather than a big reveal down the road.

So, ummm, I think Danys finally has an army big enough to take Westeros - assuming she can convince the entire Dothraki hoard to get on boats an cross the sea. In any event, I would imagine she is going to take back Slaver's Bay without too many problems. Can you imagine seeing her leading a Dothraki hoard your direction with a couple/few dragons flying over head as well? Ummm, she's going to wreck anyone who stands in her way. In fact, I bet they let her take back the Iron Throne... just in time for her to march her army (with Lannisters, Starks, Greyjoys, and others by her side) against the equally huge Army of the Dead.

-Jason "this was an episode of female empowerment -- how about Brienne telling Ser Davos and Mel about how she executed Stannis?!?!" Evans

[SCMatt33]

So, why would Ramsay send that letter to John Snow? It is not like the letter gave John a choice. It did not say, "Bring back my wife, and I'l let you and your Wildlings live." No, it said, in essence, "I'm going to kill you and everyone you care about in the most gruesome way possible no matter what you do." Is Ramsay that confident about his ability to win a fight? I guess he thinks the Karstarks and the Umbers, who are the two biggest houses in the North, are both on his side so he doesn't really fear John Snow and his Wildling army at all.

Still, I just don't get why Ramsay wrote the letter. Makes me wonder if Littlefinger might have had a role in it. I should add that it is not at all impossible to imagine that Littlefinger has spies inside Winterfell who could tell him that Rikon was there. Then again, for the most part, it has not been the trend on GOT for stuff to happen behind our back and only later be revealed. If Littlefinger was plotting all this, I think there would have been more hints rather than a big reveal down the road.

First, Ramsay does give him the option, "Send me my bride and I won't trouble you or your Wildling lovers." Now we as the audience know that he doesn't mean it, and it's likely that John Snow know it and Ramsay doesn't expect him to believe it, but it is in there. Additionally, Ramsay is keenly aware that he needs Sansa to help bring northern families under him while also destroying any remaining male Starks if he ever wants to truly hold the North. Goading him into a fight at Winterfell with the Karststarks and Umbers presumably on his side is preferable to marching up to Castle Black. Besides the tactical advantages, sending his military forces away from Winterfell would be unwise with several northern families still against him and Bran's whereabouts unknown to him. Were he to leave with enough force to take castle black, it could be conceivable to Ramsay that Bran is hiding with someone like the Mormonts on Bear Island who could swoop in and return Bran to power in Winterfell while he is gone.

Besides, what does Littlefinger gain from writing such a letter. If he simply wanted John to march down to Winterfell, he really only would need to say, "they got your brother, I'll help, meet me there." It's possible he's plotting with Ramsay and means to spring a trap on John and fight with Ramsay instead of against him, but again, that plan would work better if John thinks that Littlefinger is on his side as opposed to not knowing he's going to be there.

I suppose it would make sense if Littlefingers plan was to have the others beat themselves up before stepping in to defeat them both and take Winterfell himself, but that puts himself at great personal risk of the Knights of the Vale don't go along with it. They are more isolationist than conquerors. You can sell them on why fighting Ramsay is good for the vale, but convincing them to take Winterfell may be a step too far. In the end, I don't see a convincing explaination as to why Littlefinger would go to the trouble of sending a fake Bolton bannerman to deliver a fake letter, when most of his possible motivations would be better served by sending a message himself or having Ramsay send a real letter

[A-Tex Devil]

The other big question is what did Tommen tell Cersei about his conversation with the High Sparrow?

Theory from another page that I like -- Loras confessed that the Tyrells were in league to have Joffrey killed. Cersei now knows this and is using the Tyrells and their army to fight the Sparrows to avoid walk of shame for Margaery. The Lannister army/Kings Landing Citywatch/Kingsguard betray Tyrells (or attempt to) and there is a big battle in Kings' Landing. People die, the Cersei prophecy comes true, etc. If Tommen dies, though, there is a real vacuum in the iron throne, and we are back to where we were when Robert died.

[alteran]

So, why would Ramsay send that letter to John Snow? It is not like the letter gave John a choice. It did not say, "Bring back my wife, and I'l let you and your Wildlings live." No, it said, in essence, "I'm going to kill you and everyone you care about in the most gruesome way possible no matter what you do." Is Ramsay that confident about his ability to win a fight? I guess he thinks the Karstarks and the Umbers, who are the two biggest houses in the North, are both on his side so he doesn't really fear John Snow and his Wildling army at all.

Still, I just don't get why Ramsay wrote the letter.

I hear you, but it's entirely in character for Ramsey to write a letter like that just to be a sadistic [wanker, etc.], even though it could potentially hold disastrous fallout for him. Witness the letter he wrote to Theon's family included with package containing "Theon's favorite toy."

It was a letter very similar in tone to the one John Snow just received.

We might know that Theon's family couldn't care less about him, but Ramsey didn't know that. Even if he did, one could easily assume the Ironborn would feel honor-bound to respond. Ramsey's gesture easily could have brought the Ironborn down on the Boltons while they were in an even more precarious situation than they are in now.

You could list any number of examples of Ramsey being self-destructive and short-sighted.

Also, even Ramsey has to admit he really, really needs Sansa. I wouldn't rule out Littlefinger with the letter, but Occam's Razor points to Ramsey.

And one thing that I noticed and hasn't been mentioned yet-- as far as the world is concerned outside Castle Black, John Snow is Lord Commander, and bound upon both his honor and the pain of death not to meddle in internecine political fights, and most particularly not come to the aid of his former family. The letter is written as if the author realizes he's no longer oath-bound, however.

The show isn't marking a calendar for us, but there really doesn't appear to have been enough time for that news to have left Castle Black and generated a response. The characters seem to take it in stride, though.

It'd be interesting to know whether this is a writing goof, or a very guarded hint.

[A-Tex Devil]

I
And one thing that I noticed and hasn't been mentioned yet-- as far as the world is concerned outside Castle Black, John Snow is Lord Commander, and bound upon both his honor and the pain of death not to meddle in internecine political fights, and most particularly not come to the aid of his former family. The letter is written as if the author realizes he's no longer oath-bound, however.

The show isn't marking a calendar for us, but there really doesn't appear to have been enough time for that news to have left Castle Black and generated a response. The characters seem to take it in stride, though.

It'd be interesting to know whether this is a writing goof, or a very guarded hint.

I don't think so. Stannis wanted to force the Nightswatch/Wildlings into battle. I don't think Ramsay cares other than he knows Sansa escaped and wants/needs her back. I don't see it as acknowledging he's not oath bound.

[ncexnyc]

So the Knights of the Vale are on the move, but why?

It seems to me Littlefinger couldn't anticipate Sansa escaping like she did, so as Ricky used to say to Lucy, "Lucy, you've got some splainin to do." Littlefinger is in a bit of a bind here and where does he throw his support?

Backing Ramsay who already has the support of the largest houses in the North eliminates Jon and the Wildlings in one stroke. Backing Jon is a bit more of a gamble, but a win pretty much assures Ramsay gets what's coming to him and frees Sansa up for him, as she is no longer suitable marriage material for Robin.

Of course as I said above Littlefinger is in a bit of a bind as exactly how would Sansa say all of this played out in the first place.

And one thing you can count on. Whatever side Littlefinger throws in with, you can bet that somewhere along the way Robin will bite the bullet.

[Wander]

Then again, for the most part, it has not been the trend on GOT for stuff to happen behind our back and only later be revealed. If Littlefinger was plotting all this, I think there would have been more hints rather than a big reveal down the road.

But I could just as easily use this argument to ask, why didn't they show Ramsey writing the letter?

One more tiny detail: the letter said Ramsey was using Shaggywolf's skin as a rug. But Ramsey was only given the head. Did the Umbers give Shaggywolf's entire body to Ramsey off-screen? Is Ramsey just making an empty boast? Is it a meaningless, minor continuity error? All of these are possible, but I think it's a tiny hint to us that Ramsey didn't write the letter.

BTW A-Tex Devil, I actually agree with you that Littlefinger genuinely screwed up in not knowing how sadistic Ramsey was when he gifted Sansa to him. But I don't think that's inconsistent with him writing the letter.

[bjornolf]

But I could just as easily use this argument to ask, why didn't they show Ramsey writing the letter?

One more tiny detail: the letter said Ramsey was using Shaggywolf's skin as a rug. But Ramsey was only given the head. Did the Umbers give Shaggywolf's entire body to Ramsey off-screen? Is Ramsey just making an empty boast? Is it a meaningless, minor continuity error? All of these are possible, but I think it's a tiny hint to us that Ramsey didn't write the letter.

BTW A-Tex Devil, I actually agree with you that Littlefinger genuinely screwed up in not knowing how sadistic Ramsey was when he gifted Sansa to him. But I don't think that's inconsistent with him writing the letter.

To support the tin foil hat people, maybe Umber wrote it? He'd have an easier time getting a Bolton man, either fake or real, to deliver it. He could just hand it to a Bolton messenger and say "Ramsay wants this to go to Castle Bkack." He'd also have better chance to get a minute alone with the Bolton "flayed man" sigil to make the seal on the letter.

[Mal]

But I could just as easily use this argument to ask, why didn't they show Ramsey writing the letter?

Because it's the only obvious conclusion, and thus wouldn't need further explanation. If the name on the letter is that of the person who actually wrote it, what's the point, when working on a time and monetary budget, of also filming him sitting down with pen and ink? It wouldn't feel cheap or manipulative to have us learn that, yes indeed, Ramsay wrote the letter that was delivered with a Bolton seal and was signed by Ramsay even though we didn't witness him physically writing it.


One more tiny detail: the letter said Ramsey was using Shaggywolf's skin as a rug. But Ramsey was only given the head. Did the Umbers give Shaggywolf's entire body to Ramsey off-screen? Is Ramsey just making an empty boast? Is it a meaningless, minor continuity error? All of these are possible, but I think it's a tiny hint to us that Ramsey didn't write the letter.

I guess I don't even see this as a continuity error. What else would have happened to the body of the wolf? In any event, it's likely just Ramsay being Ramsay. Rather surprising he didn't claim to have done other, more disgusting things with it, frankly.

I agree with alteran on this one. It feels too farfetched to think anyone else wrote that letter.

[A-Tex Devil]

To support the tin foil hat people, maybe Umber wrote it? He'd have an easier time getting a Bolton man, either fake or real, to deliver it. He could just hand it to a Bolton messenger and say "Ramsay wants this to go to Castle Bkack." He'd also have better chance to get a minute alone with the Bolton "flayed man" sigil to make the seal on the letter.

I don't think people are giving Ramsay enough credit despite what this show has illustrated. He's a sick expletive, but also a smart one. I'll be stunned if he didn't write the letter.

Also, while it could have easily been forged, I think they made a point to show the flayed man seal on the letter to illustrate that it came from House Bolton.

[alteran]

Also, while it could have easily been forged, I think they made a point to show the flayed man seal on the letter to illustrate that it came from House Bolton.

Did anyone else notice that the wax seal was made so that you slide it off, not break if? Defeats the whole point of the seal in the first place.

Not ascribing any meaning to that, just pointing out that show runners kinda goofed.

[Mal]

So the Knights of the Vale are on the move, but why?

I, too, am very intrigued by the implications of the Vale's army and Littlefinger getting involved here (called it! Insert broken clock for blind squirrel joke).

I see the temptation he might have to betray Jon by allying with Bolton. Now that he knows Ramsay's sadistic weaknesses, I could see Baelish thinking "That guy's easy to take down whenever I feel like it, but I need an actual army to remove the bigger threat here in Snow."

On the other hand, he's publicly proclaimed in front of the head of his now mobilized army that they're going to save Sansa from Ramsay.

On the third hand, he just sold that same guy down the river, so who knows what further treachery awaits (from either of the two of them, really).

On the fourth hand, we've been given every indication that Baelish might actually have legitimate feelings for and loyalty to Sansa, be they predatory or avuncular. Then again, so long as Jon's around, she no longer needs him for physical safety, not that what he provided on that front turned out well for her, anyway. So she's free to betray him now, too.

If the Umbers aren't available for Jon and Sansa (looking like my hopes of that are being dashed), who else is out there? The Mormonts were a Northern family, right? The Reeds sent their children to go protect Bran, so they seem like allies. What other houses are there? And what's going on in the Riverlands right now? Aren't there some Tullys who could be rounded up in support of Sansa and Jon, who are still ticked at the Boltons? I need to go back and watch the previous 50 hours of this show to catch up on who's where, who was killed and why, and what loyalties are still intact. But I think Catelyn's uncle was still alive after the Red Wedding and her brother, uncle to both Sansa and Robin, is hostage to the Freys. I think a combined Arryn, Tully, Wildling army would be pretty formidable, right? And Baelish wants to take over the entire North, after all. A promise to return the Riverlands to the Tullys in exchange for helping vanquish the Boltons would be well-received, I think. Maybe the Tullys are basically wiped out and none of their supporting families haven't declared loyalty to Walder Frey, though.

[Blue in the Face]

Did anyone else notice that the wax seal was made so that you slide it off, not break if? Defeats the whole point of the seal in the first place.

Not ascribing any meaning to that, just pointing out that show runners kinda goofed.
Ha, I was wondering about that too.

[Mal]

Contrarian alert: I thought the climactic scene of Daenerys burnin' down the house was pointless. She's already shown everyone, including Dothrakis, that she's impervious to fire; she's already established several times for the viewer that she's a total bad#%^ when endangered, and that she won't be conquered. Been there, done that. So what? On the other hand, she has not established, over 5 seasons now, that she has a clue of how to lead people other than to scare and/or awe them through her supernatural power and dragons. Unless the end result is that she gives up on being a queen and just accepts what she's good at, being a warrior and general capable of defeating pretty much everyone, then offering that skill to someone else, I think I've grown really tired of her story. So now she's got all the Dothrakis behind her? Why didn't she go do that forever ago after she first displayed her magic for them, instead of wandering through the desert?

[JasonEvans]

So now she's got all the Dothrakis behind her? Why didn't she go do that forever ago after she first displayed her magic for them, instead of wandering through the desert?

The first time she walked out of the fire, there were like 30 or 40 Dothrakis there, at the most. The rest of her hoard had deserted her when Khal Drogo fell off his horse (and died a day or two later). So, she had not displayed the "impervious to fire" thing to all of them yet.

What's more, it took an extraordinary meeting of all the Khals for her to be in the right place at the right time to take them all out. If she merely went into Vaes Dothrak and walked through a fire, I'm betting some of the other Khals would have opposed her. Instead, she kills them all at the same time and emerges from the flames as the only leader left in the Dothraki world. The Dothraki people are looking on in horor as all their chiefs are burning when suddenly someone steps, unburnt, out of the flames. Of course that person will be able to fill the leadership vacuum and assume command of the entire army.

Side note, what was the point of having Jorah and Daario involved at all in Dany's escape? They didn't end up mattering at all. I guess it was just to give them something to do while we established that Tyrian and Varys were in complete control in Mereen.

-Jason "I wonder if Dany will hate the deal Tyrian cut -- probably as she is not used to compromise, but I sorta think it was an ok deal" Evans

[Karl Beem]

I, too, am very intrigued by the implications of the Vale's army and Littlefinger getting involved here (called it! Insert broken clock for blind squirrel joke).

I see the temptation he might have to betray Jon by allying with Bolton. Now that he knows Ramsay's sadistic weaknesses, I could see Baelish thinking "That guy's easy to take down whenever I feel like it, but I need an actual army to remove the bigger threat here in Snow."

On the other hand, he's publicly proclaimed in front of the head of his now mobilized army that they're going to save Sansa from Ramsay.

On the third hand, he just sold that same guy down the river, so who knows what further treachery awaits (from either of the two of them, really).

On the fourth hand, we've been given every indication that Baelish might actually have legitimate feelings for and loyalty to Sansa, be they predatory or avuncular. Then again, so long as Jon's around, she no longer needs him for physical safety, not that what he provided on that front turned out well for her, anyway. So she's free to betray him now, too.

If the Umbers aren't available for Jon and Sansa (looking like my hopes of that are being dashed), who else is out there? The Mormonts were a Northern family, right? The Reeds sent their children to go protect Bran, so they seem like allies. What other houses are there? And what's going on in the Riverlands right now? Aren't there some Tullys who could be rounded up in support of Sansa and Jon, who are still ticked at the Boltons? I need to go back and watch the previous 50 hours of this show to catch up on who's where, who was killed and why, and what loyalties are still intact. But I think Catelyn's uncle was still alive after the Red Wedding and her brother, uncle to both Sansa and Robin, is hostage to the Freys. I think a combined Arryn, Tully, Wildling army would be pretty formidable, right? And Baelish wants to take over the entire North, after all. A promise to return the Riverlands to the Tullys in exchange for helping vanquish the Boltons would be well-received, I think. Maybe the Tullys are basically wiped out and none of their supporting families haven't declared loyalty to Walder Frey, though.

Let's not forget Littlefinger's last words to Sansa, "Avenge your family".

[bjornolf]

I don't think people are giving Ramsay enough credit despite what this show has illustrated. He's a sick expletive, but also a smart one. I'll be stunned if he didn't write the letter.

Also, while it could have easily been forged, I think they made a point to show the flayed man seal on the letter to illustrate that it came from House Bolton.

That's why I said Umber would be more likely than Baelish, though I wouldn't put it passed Littlefinger to have some forged seals.

Also, my dad and I both commented on the slide off seal too.

[stevoflurane]

In regards to the sliding off of the wax seal being a misplay by the show runners, I seriously doubt it. There is so much info and foreshadowing that goes on in the show that once you rematch, you realize that every single detail has significance. I read an article showing Arya praying in front of a weirwood face right before getting her sight back. I doubt that's a coincidence too. That being said, the sliding off of the wax seal most likely is a sign for something.

[El_Diablo]

Without getting into specifics, there are a lot of hints in the books that the letter was written by someone other than Ramsay (which has not yet been resolved in the books and explains why the topic is getting a lot more attention that it would otherwise seem to warrant). But those hints are not present in the show version of the letter, so it seems that the showrunners either want to (a) advance the main story without delving into a subplot (i.e., the authenticity of the letter) or (b) shock people from out of left field without using GRRM's foreshadowing. They have done both (a) and (b) plenty of times already, so it's hard to say which category the letter falls into.

Interestingly, the phrase "come and see" is used by a character elsewhere in this episode, but that person is not Ramsay. It could be a coincidence, however. Or it could just be a trolling attempt by the showrunners (who know the topic of the letter will be closely scrutinized by a lot of book readers).

[bjornolf]

If the Umbers aren't available for Jon and Sansa (looking like my hopes of that are being dashed), who else is out there? The Mormonts were a Northern family, right? The Reeds sent their children to go protect Bran, so they seem like allies. What other houses are there? And what's going on in the Riverlands right now? Aren't there some Tullys who could be rounded up in support of Sansa and Jon, who are still ticked at the Boltons? I need to go back and watch the previous 50 hours of this show to catch up on who's where, who was killed and why, and what loyalties are still intact. But I think Catelyn's uncle was still alive after the Red Wedding and her brother, uncle to both Sansa and Robin, is hostage to the Freys. I think a combined Arryn, Tully, Wildling army would be pretty formidable, right? And Baelish wants to take over the entire North, after all. A promise to return the Riverlands to the Tullys in exchange for helping vanquish the Boltons would be well-received, I think. Maybe the Tullys are basically wiped out and none of their supporting families haven't declared loyalty to Walder Frey, though.

Well, there are the Karstarks, but they're not big fans of the Starks right now. The Umbers are with the Boltons. Those, along with the mostly defunct Starks, are the major houses in the North. There are like 20 houses in the North, though. The Manderlys and the Glovers would probably stay loyal to the Starks, but they're not that big. The Mormonts, are for the Starks, but don't have many members any more. The Reeds love the Starks. Howland Reed saved Ned at the Tower of Joy, and Jojen and Meera are with Bran.

[El_Diablo]

Well, there are the Karstarks, but they're not big fans of the Starks right now. The Umbers are with the Boltons. Those, along with the mostly defunct Starks, are the major houses in the North. There are like 20 houses in the North, though. The Manderlys and the Glovers would probably stay loyal to the Starks, but they're not that big. The Mormonts, if there are any left in Westeros, probably don't have much love for the Starks.

Among Northern houses, Ramsay mentioned a couple episodes back that they can hold the North with just the Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlys. The Glovers have not appeared in the show since Season 1, I believe. The Mormonts appeared indirectly in Season 5 and are clearly Stark loyalists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt4_qHVpk88

The Tullys are south, in the Riverlands, and are basically stuck between the Lannisters, Tyrells and Freys. The Freys may also have one or both of Edmure and the Blackfish as captives (neither have appeared since the Red Wedding).

[JasonEvans]

Saw this gif... some are suggesting that this scene is the show's way of foreshadowing that Rickon will get badly wounded in his leg... or perhaps have it amputated.

http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5739f564ff97be4071974da5/master/w_690,c_limit/4402b6a457341b0ab7adbe6ef0367ad7.gif

[bjornolf]

Saw this gif... some are suggesting that this scene is the show's way of foreshadowing that Rickon will get badly wounded in his leg... or perhaps have it amputated.

http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5739f564ff97be4071974da5/master/w_690,c_limit/4402b6a457341b0ab7adbe6ef0367ad7.gif

Wow, that's really reading into things. I thought it was just "girl gets beaten with stick."

[bjornolf]

Among Northern houses, Ramsay mentioned a couple episodes back that they can hold the North with just the Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlys. The Glovers have not appeared in the show since Season 1, I believe. The Mormonts appeared indirectly in Season 5 and are clearly Stark loyalists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt4_qHVpk88

The Tullys are south, in the Riverlands, and are basically stuck between the Lannisters, Tyrells and Freys. The Freys may also have one or both of Edmure and the Blackfish as captives (neither have appeared since the Red Wedding).

Yeah, I edited that, must have been while you were typing your reply. I had forgotten about the Mormonts' actions, going by the fact that Jorah had to flee Bear Island to escape Ned's wrath. During my research into some of the Northern families, I saw that.

[wilson]

Wow, that's really reading into things. I thought it was just "girl gets beaten with stick."Noone gets beaten with a stick in that clip.

[Mike Corey]

Side note, what was the point of having Jorah and Daario involved at all in Dany's escape? They didn't end up mattering at all. I guess it was just to give them something to do while we established that Tyrian and Varys were in complete control in Mereen.

-Jason "I wonder if Dany will hate the deal Tyrian cut -- probably as she is not used to compromise, but I sorta think it was an ok deal" Evans

To blockade the door, perhaps? Beyond that, to share in the awe? And cause it at least gives them something to do and somewhere to be? :)

As to the deal: I share your curiosity as to Dany's response...

[alteran]

Side note, what was the point of having Jorah and Daario involved at all in Dany's escape? They didn't end up mattering at all. I guess it was just to give them something to do while we established that Tyrian and Varys were in complete control in Mereen.

I suspect the main reason is that the writers want Jorah and Daario with Dany when she leaves Vaes Dothrak. Better a rescue attempt that ultimately didn't do a lot than randomly coming across them on a road.

Also, the not-really-necessary-or-particularly-helpful rescue attempt also solidifies Jorah as back in Dany's good graces, as the last time they were together Jorah had won some points defending her, but was not clearly forgiven yet.

[alteran]

In regards to the sliding off of the wax seal being a misplay by the show runners, I seriously doubt it. There is so much info and foreshadowing that goes on in the show that once you rematch, you realize that every single detail has significance. I read an article showing Arya praying in front of a weirwood face right before getting her sight back. I doubt that's a coincidence too. That being said, the sliding off of the wax seal most likely is a sign for something.

I agree with you that the showrunners show a lot of care and detail and even play to some of us that over analyze, but it's hard to see this as anything other than a goof (or a shortcut that was probably not worth it).

The whole point of a seal is that you can use it to prove that the message was not faked or tampered with. It is not fool-proof, but by the technology of the era it is pretty dang good.

Using a seal on something that can be slid off one message and on to another is just PLAIN. DANG. SILLY. And it defeats the whole point of the seal.

Now, the show-runners may have wanted to hint to the audience that the message could easily have been compromised, but that's a pretty ham-handed way to do it. John Snow and Sansa should have seen the problem immediately... we did.

[JasonEvans]

Also, the not-really-necessary-or-particularly-helpful rescue attempt also solidifies Jorah as back in Dany's good graces, as the last time they were together Jorah had won some points defending her, but was not clearly forgiven yet.

Odds that Jorah, suffering from Greyscale and knowing his future is pretty darn lousy, gives his life to save Dany at some point this season = 80%.

-Jason "anyone disagree? Should the number be even higher? There has been very little significant character death this season... that will change soon I expect" Evans

[wilson]

Odds that Jorah, suffering from Greyscale and knowing his future is pretty darn lousy, gives his life to save Dany at some point this season = 80%.

-Jason "anyone disagree? Should the number be even higher? There has been very little significant character death this season... that will change soon I expect" EvansYou should add to the above Jorah's desire to redeem himself in Daenerys' eyes. I'd put these odds well into the 90s.

[Mal]

John Snow and Sansa should have seen the problem immediately... we did.

Yeah, that seems to point to "production goof" from my perspective. If it's noteworthy that the seal slides off instead of needs to be broken, then presumably Jon would have made mention of how weird it was, right?

I do like the tie-in ElDiablo notes to Baelish's gift giving to Robyn. Come and see, indeed. Who knows? I guess if anyone could have known about Rickon being at Winterfell, forged a seal and arranged to have a fake Bolton messenger show up at Castle Black, it would be Littlefinger.

JE, on the Daenerys storyline, I think the issue I have is more with the storytelling. There's no reason Martin couldn't have come up with a way to accelerate her plot to get her to where she was at the end of this last episode a lot faster. Given what little she seems to have absorbed over several years moving around in Essos, I just am not sure what the point of it all is. Other than killing time while the dragons grow up.

[Wander]

You should add to the above Jorah's desire to redeem himself in Daenerys' eyes. I'd put these odds well into the 90s.

Unless Jorah's narrative purpose is to spread some grayscale around, in which case he may be safe for a little while. That's really the only reason I'd put his near death as not-100%.

[El_Diablo]

I suspect the main reason is that the writers want Jorah and Daario with Dany when she leaves Vaes Dothrak. Better a rescue attempt that ultimately didn't do a lot than randomly coming across them on a road.

Also, the not-really-necessary-or-particularly-helpful rescue attempt also solidifies Jorah as back in Dany's good graces, as the last time they were together Jorah had won some points defending her, but was not clearly forgiven yet.

The rescue story adds more oomph to Dany's scene at the end of the episode. For the past few episodes, she was largely a damsel in distress, with the chivalrous heroes closing in to save her (much like Drogon did last season when she got into trouble). When they finally find her, she turns viewer expectations upside down in refusing the rescue attempt, telling them she has a better solution and taking matters into her own hands.

It also might fundamentally change her relationship with Daario, who has seen her use her dragons but has not witnessed anything like this. He now, like Jorah, has witnessed a miracle and sees that she is basically a demi-god.

[El_Diablo]

Regarding the seal, compare it to this other seal that is accepted as authentic (but is slid off in the same casual manner):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4&t=2m19s

[A-Tex Devil]

Regarding the seal, compare it to this other seal that is accepted as authentic (but is slid off in the same casual manner):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4&t=2m19s


Don't forget that they show the Bolton sigil riding up to Castle Black ahead of the scene where they read the letter. I'll just stick to Occam's razor that Ramsay wrote it. I'll be disappointed if he didn't. #thatssoramsay

[davekay1971]

Here's my theory:

Ramsey wrote it. Probably.

His biggest immediate threat remains a viable Stark led resistance among the houses of the north. The only person who could possibly rally that resistance, at this point, is Jon, who may be a bastard but is recognized to be Eddard Stark's only living and un-captured son (Bran being vanished, whereabouts unknown, and, as a cripple, reasonably assumed to be dead), and having the street cred of being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. If Ramsey assumes he has the Karstarks and Umbers at least momentarily in hand, then he could reason that provoking Jon into a rash attack on Winterfell with whatever is left of the Night's Watch and a bunch of wildlings, he could eliminate the last viable Stark from the picture. Getting his hands on Sansa again would be icing on the cake, but I'd guess Ramsey is rational enough to be perfectly happy to kill Jon even if Sansa remained behind at Castle Black. If Ramsey doesn't provoke Jon into a premature attack, he would give Jon time to form a plan, to send ravens to the other Northern houses, and to build a viable army. Ramsey wants Jon dead, now.

My only question is why Ramsey didn't simply march his army up to the gates of Castle Black, which is almost impossible to defend from the South? if he did so without warning, he could easily sack the castle and just kill Jon and take Sansa. Plot hole, or evidence that someone else wrote the letter?

If Ramsey didn't write it, then the guy who brought Rickon to him may have. Provoke Jon into attacking, which would provoke Ramsey into killing Rickon, let Jon get killed in the battle then Karstark assassinates Ramsey and takes Winterfell, I guess.

Or Littlefinger wrote it, similarly hoping to provoke Jon into an attack, which would get Jon killed in battle with the Bolton men and Rickon dead when Ramsey flips out and kills him, while Petyr rides in to save Sansa, kill Ramsey, and become Warden of the North. Maybe.

At this point Melisandre could teleport Charles Vane over from Black Sails to scale the walls of Winterfell and cut Ramsey's head off and put it on a stake to prove his love to Sansa and I wouldn't be surprised.

PS: John Silver could totally rule the Iron Throne. Just sayin'

[Wander]

El Diablo's excellent observation which I did not catch (Littlefinger using the phrase "Come and see" earlier in the episode) seals the deal for me. Letter written by Littlefinger (or by the Umbers at his command), and not by Ramsey. I think we need a forum avatar-related bet. Any takers?

[bjornolf]

Unless Jorah's narrative purpose is to spread some grayscale around, in which case he may be safe for a little while. That's really the only reason I'd put his near death as not-100%.

Unless grayscale can be cured with a little dragon fire. :rolleyes:

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Here's my theory:

Ramsey wrote it. Probably.

His biggest immediate threat remains a viable Stark led resistance among the houses of the north. The only person who could possibly rally that resistance, at this point, is Jon, who may be a bastard but is recognized to be Eddard Stark's only living and un-captured son (Bran being vanished, whereabouts unknown, and, as a cripple, reasonably assumed to be dead), and having the street cred of being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. If Ramsey assumes he has the Karstarks and Umbers at least momentarily in hand, then he could reason that provoking Jon into a rash attack on Winterfell with whatever is left of the Night's Watch and a bunch of wildlings, he could eliminate the last viable Stark from the picture. Getting his hands on Sansa again would be icing on the cake, but I'd guess Ramsey is rational enough to be perfectly happy to kill Jon even if Sansa remained behind at Castle Black. If Ramsey doesn't provoke Jon into a premature attack, he would give Jon time to form a plan, to send ravens to the other Northern houses, and to build a viable army. Ramsey wants Jon dead, now.

My only question is why Ramsey didn't simply march his army up to the gates of Castle Black, which is almost impossible to defend from the South? if he did so without warning, he could easily sack the castle and just kill Jon and take Sansa. Plot hole, or evidence that someone else wrote the letter?

If Ramsey didn't write it, then the guy who brought Rickon to him may have. Provoke Jon into attacking, which would provoke Ramsey into killing Rickon, let Jon get killed in the battle then Karstark assassinates Ramsey and takes Winterfell, I guess.

Or Littlefinger wrote it, similarly hoping to provoke Jon into an attack, which would get Jon killed in battle with the Bolton men and Rickon dead when Ramsey flips out and kills him, while Petyr rides in to save Sansa, kill Ramsey, and become Warden of the North. Maybe.

At this point Melisandre could teleport Charles Vane over from Black Sails to scale the walls of Winterfell and cut Ramsey's head off and put it on a stake to prove his love to Sansa and I wouldn't be surprised.

PS: John Silver could totally rule the Iron Throne. Just sayin'


As far as attacking castle black isn't that considered to be off limits for any house? The crows are the first line of defense against everything north of the wall. Perhaps Ramsey is smart enough to know that he needs to provoke Lord Commander into a fight rather than attacking castle black. I don't know maybe I am wrong but I thought it was established earlier in the show that it was off limits, and even Ramsey knows that attacking castle black will lose him supporters in the North.

[Mal]

As far as attacking castle black isn't that considered to be off limits for any house? The crows are the first line of defense against everything north of the wall. Perhaps Ramsey is smart enough to know that he needs to provoke Lord Commander into a fight rather than attacking castle black. I don't know maybe I am wrong but I thought it was established earlier in the show that it was off limits, and even Ramsey knows that attacking castle black will lose him supporters in the North.

I would imagine the treachery of Ramsay Bolton recognizes no such limits, and suspect he doesn't care about any such taboo. He wants to win and knows that if he does he'll get to write the history of himself, anyway.

I think it's more tactical than anything. Stannis's army got bogged down in a snowstorm going between the Wall and Winterfell, with tons of casualties and desertions, if I recall. And the Bolton crew would be susceptible to guerilla attacks all the way up there, too, especially now that the various scattered Wildlings line the way. Not to mention the possibility of Winterfell rebelling ten minutes after he's gone. Forcing the opposition to mobilize in winter, and getting to defend a well-fortified position, is a significant boost to his chances of winning this upcoming war.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Holy dust in my eyes...

[BandAlum83]

The episodes always end too soon!

[ncexnyc]

Won't be many dry eyes after that episode.

[JasonEvans]

Wow wow wow wow!!

I want you to think about what it took to set that up. We are talking about a relatively minor character who spent 5 books doing little but who's specific role in the story had been defined from the start. Simply jaw-dropping.

Bran can impact and change the past. That is a big deal.

The image of the army of the dead advancing down that tunnel, including them scaling the walls/cieling was amazing. Like nothing else on TV.

Jason "the final ten minutes of that episode are among the best TV of my lifetime" Evans

[BandAlum83]

How do they do it week in and week out? The production value is as good as any summer blockbuster.

[Wander]

How do they do it week in and week out? The production value is as good as any summer blockbuster.

Ouch. Please don't use the word summer for a while :( I can deal with the Red Weddings and babies getting eaten, but if at least Ghost doesn't survive the series...

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Wow, that episode is right up there with hardhome, it was just awe inspiring. The last ten minutes alone would have made any episode wonderful.

I have a feeling Sansa is getting herself into some trouble. Not telling Jon about LittleFinger may have been a mistake. Could come back and bite both of them at some point.

Bran must have the power to stop the White Walkers somehow. That's why they are so intent on killing him. His new abilities should be a fun wrinkle in the show, but hopefully it doesn't end with him realizing he can just change everything by not climbing up that tower in episode one season one. HAHA how annoying would that be.

[wavedukefan70s]

I have not read the books.i suspect
He will be the one to stop them.

[Wander]

His new abilities should be a fun wrinkle in the show, but hopefully it doesn't end with him realizing he can just change everything by not climbing up that tower in episode one season one. HAHA how annoying would that be.

Well, at least for now, he can't actually CHANGE the past. Just cause the things that already happened, like in Lost ("whatever happened, happened"). I hope it stays that way. Though I can see Bran not realizing this and trying to change the past and screwing things up even more. Can he still travel now that he's not at the tree?

Did Blackfish actually overtake Riverrun, or is that a Littlefinger lie?

[Mal]

Well, at least for now, he can't actually CHANGE the past.

Is that right? Someone changed, the past, I think. Was that the raven's last act, right before the Night King kills him? Realizing that Bran was a goner if he couldn't get away from a zombie horde through a door in the tree cave, he went back in time to Winterfell in Willis's youth and turned him into Hodor? I don't think it's just luck or fate that Willis had that seizure and then just happened to fulfill Hodor's destiny 30 years later.

[PSurprise]

Is that right? Someone changed, the past, I think. Was that the raven's last act, right before the Night King kills him? Realizing that Bran was a goner if he couldn't get away from a zombie horde through a door in the tree cave, he went back in time to Winterfell in Willis's youth and turned him into Hodor? I don't think it's just luck or fate that Willis had that seizure and then just happened to fulfill Hodor's destiny 30 years later.

My head hurts.

[El_Diablo]

Is that right? Someone changed, the past, I think. Was that the raven's last act, right before the Night King kills him? Realizing that Bran was a goner if he couldn't get away from a zombie horde through a door in the tree cave, he went back in time to Winterfell in Willis's youth and turned him into Hodor? I don't think it's just luck or fate that Willis had that seizure and then just happened to fulfill Hodor's destiny 30 years later.

Bran clearly caused Hodor's childhood trauma, but it that wasn't necessarily a change to the past. Wyllis will still become the person we have seen from the start of the show, and all the events after that scene in Winterfell will still pan out exactly like they have to date, with Bran eventually going back and causing the trauma to Hodor.

[JasonEvans]

Is that right? Someone changed, the past, I think. Was that the raven's last act, right before the Night King kills him? Realizing that Bran was a goner if he couldn't get away from a zombie horde through a door in the tree cave, he went back in time to Winterfell in Willis's youth and turned him into Hodor? I don't think it's just luck or fate that Willis had that seizure and then just happened to fulfill Hodor's destiny 30 years later.

Bran was the one who warged into Hodor, not the Raven. It was Bran who scrambled Willis's brain. I think we are supposed to think that Bran implanted such a powerful message into Hodor ("HOLD THE DOOR!!") that it became the only thought that Hodor could have. Because Bran was simultaneously in the past and the present when he implanted that thought, it became the only thing Hodor could think in the present and the only thing Willis could think in the past.

The interesting question is whether Bran can now change the past. One might say that what we just saw indicates he can, but Willis becoming feebleminded Hodor is the only reality we know. We are still yet to see Bran change anything. Similarly, we have no idea if Ned always hears someone yell, "father" as he begin to ascend the steps into the Tower of Joy. What we don't know is if Bran can go back in time and communicate to his father, "Don't go to King's Landing" or communicate to himself, "Don't climb the walls of Winterfell" and so on. I've got no problem with him "changing" things that always were supposed to happen. I've got a big problem with him changing things and fundamentally altering the state of the story. The "butterfly effect" of actually changing the past is something that almost always ruins the story.

-Jason "I'm still in awe over the quality of that episode... that was a drop the mike kind of ending" Evans

[Mal]

Bran clearly caused Hodor's childhood trauma, but it that wasn't necessarily a change to the past. Wyllis will still become the person we have seen from the start of the show, and all the events after that scene in Winterfell will still pan out exactly like they have to date, with Bran eventually going back and causing the trauma to Hodor.

Perhaps. But if Bran hadn't have been simultaneously warging Hodor in the present while also visiting him in the past, wouldn't Willis's fate have been to grow up as a functionally speaking servant of some sort? He didn't have to have a one track mind in order to be given "carry Bran around" duty and be there to be warged into several times. That seems like a change occurred to the past.

I don't know. Time travel makes my head spin. Maybe it's semantics, as I get where you and El Diablo are coming from. Here's a Vox article that sort of splits the difference. http://www.vox.com/2016/5/22/11722146/game-of-thrones-season-6-recap-hodor-dies-bran-time-travel

[El_Diablo]

I don't know. Time travel makes my head spin. Maybe it's semantics, as I get where you and El Diablo are coming from. Here's a Vox article that sort of splits the difference. http://www.vox.com/2016/5/22/11722146/game-of-thrones-season-6-recap-hodor-dies-bran-time-travel

I think everyone agrees that Bran can affect the past. He may have affected the past (as we know it) in various other ways; we just have not seen him doing it yet.

The question of whether he can change events (relative to how they are previously known to us to have happened, a la Back to the Future) is unclear though. It would get pretty messy if so.

[ncexnyc]

For those of you who watch episodes more than once, could you please focus on the cave battle the next time you watch this episode. I'm curious about the spear used by the Forest Imp, which pierced the White Walker, but didn't kill him and then the spear used by Meera, which shattered the White Walker. What was each spear tipped with?

I'm asking because last night's episode now has given rise to claims that Meera is in fact Jon's twin.

I guess we'll have to wait awhile longer to find out about Jon's parents. I guess we should have known they'd stretch that out a bit longer.

Our Civil War thread was interesting and last night's episode made me think of it again. There can be many view points about history and we saw two last night. The bit with Jaquen telling Arya about how the House of Black and White came to be and then Arya watching the play on the death of King Robert and her father's beheading.

[El_Diablo]

But if Bran hadn't have been simultaneously warging Hodor in the present while also visiting him in the past, wouldn't Willis's fate have been to grow up as a functionally speaking servant of some sort? He didn't have to have a one track mind in order to be given "carry Bran around" duty and be there to be warged into several times. That seems like a change occurred to the past.

Hodor, as we know him, has always been considered feeble-minded, with a paralyzing aversion to physical violence. If instead Wyllis had grown up to be a normal functioning man, then (due to his size and strength) he likely would have marched off with Robb in Season 1. Young Ned even mentioned it a few episodes back--he would be an unstoppable with a sword in his hand. But due to his condition, he was not fit for war and thus did not march off with Robb. He was later dismissed as a simpleton by the ironborn after Theon's attack of Winterfell. He never once argued with Bran or abandoned him. In short, had he not been traumatized as a child, he likely would have not been relegated to such a menial task to begin with or carried it out in the same unwavering manner we have seen to date.

[El_Diablo]

For those of you who watch episodes more than once, could you please focus on the cave battle the next time you watch this episode. I'm curious about the spear used by the Forest Imp, which pierced the White Walker, but didn't kill him and then the spear used by Meera, which shattered the White Walker. What was each spear tipped with?

I'm asking because last night's episode now has given rise to claims that Meera is in fact Jon's twin.

I guess we'll have to wait awhile longer to find out about Jon's parents. I guess we should have known they'd stretch that out a bit longer.

Our Civil War thread was interesting and last night's episode made me think of it again. There can be many view points about history and we saw two last night. The bit with Jaquen telling Arya about how the House of Black and White came to be and then Arya watching the play on the death of King Robert and her father's beheading.

Both blades are almost certainly dragonglass (obsidian). The difference is that Leaf's spear hits the white walker's chestplate and does not penetrate the armor (and thus never touched the white walker). Meera's actually hits him in the neck though.

I have seen the Meera/Jon theory, but this does not really support it IMO, unless one wants to claim that only that particular set of siblings can kill white walkers (which makes no sense in the abstract and which is undercut by the simple fact that Sam also killed a white walker).