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-jk
03-11-2016, 05:53 PM
It's always fun to look at who's asking for what at the unc Public Records Requests (http://publicrecords.unc.edu/public-records/) site. They just updated it...


02/25/2016 Stancill, Jane The News and Observer
"The News & Observer requests all information, reports, documents and correspondence between UNC and the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools' Commission on Colleges this calendar year (2016)."

03/02/2016 Walters, Jennifer Individual
"I am requesting the grade distributions by percent and/or letter grade, for every class and instructor for the last five years at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill."

03/02/2016 Carter, Andrew The News and Observer
"Can this please count as my formal request for [employee full name] new contract?"

The possibilities are endless!

-jk

rsvman
03-12-2016, 09:10 AM
Last night I was going through a bunch of letters that friends and family sent me almost 40 years ago when I was living in Japan, trying to figure out what to save and what to toss.

I was reading a letter from my father that he wrote in late 1979. In the letter, he told me about something that had happened to the University of New Mexico basketball team. Details were sparse, but essentially there was a scandal, at least some of which had to do with fraudulent university credits; I think the coach had worked out a backroom deal with some junior colleges to falsify transcripts of some of the players to keep them eligible (sound somewhat familiar?).

Anyway, the letter went on to report what happened. Coach Ellenberger was fired midseason, and 6 players were summarily dismissed from the team. My dad's letter states that UNM had to slog on with a team essentially "cobbled together with walk-ons and football players."


Wait, what? Sounds like they falsified transcripts/gave fake grades for one season, and then the NCAA dropped the hammer on them? To the tune of firing the coach and not allowing the players to play? And they did this midseason? Granted, in this case the coach was intimately involved; they had recordings of him making arrangements to attempt to make the ineligible players eligible. But still.......

arnie
03-12-2016, 09:43 AM
Guess this is correct thread, others on cheaters seem to be closed. Caught Bubba interview on local radio - claims they're still waiting on revised NOA from NCAA. He kind of chuckled that NCAA doesn't have to meet their own timeframe guidelines and would no offer opinion as to when revised NOA would be received. He of course explained that Carolina is fully cooperating with NCAA on the investigation. The follow-up from local sports guys (gold, etc) was very weak.

Henderson
03-12-2016, 05:09 PM
It's always fun to look at who's asking for what at the unc Public Records Requests (http://publicrecords.unc.edu/public-records/) site. They just updated it...
****
The possibilities are endless!


I've actually used that process and gotten documents from UNC-CH. It was a good experience.

All done by email. The folks there were quite helpful. I was requesting some grade distributions for which there was a link on the website that didn't work. The first batch of documents they sent me was incomplete, but I followed up, and they got back to me right away to let me know they were pulling the documents, letting me know their timeline for complying with the request, which they met. They didn't seem defensive or as though they were trying to slough me off at all. Seemed like office folks with a job to do, and they seemed to do it cheerfully and in good faith. They could have charged me, but they never asked for payment. I sent them a nice thank-you note.

I can just imagine what they thought when dealing with a random unknown individual from Las Vegas asking for obscure documents. I didn't mention the fact that Hansbrough's nose almost broke my hand, because the statute of limitations had run on my suing him.

weezie
03-12-2016, 05:22 PM
...I sent them a nice thank-you note...

I'm proud of you. Good manners never go out of style. Well done. :cool:

swood1000
03-12-2016, 05:35 PM
Last night I was going through a bunch of letters that friends and family sent me almost 40 years ago when I was living in Japan, trying to figure out what to save and what to toss.

I was reading a letter from my father that he wrote in late 1979. In the letter, he told me about something that had happened to the University of New Mexico basketball team. Details were sparse, but essentially there was a scandal, at least some of which had to do with fraudulent university credits; I think the coach had worked out a backroom deal with some junior colleges to falsify transcripts of some of the players to keep them eligible (sound somewhat familiar?).

Anyway, the letter went on to report what happened. Coach Ellenberger was fired midseason, and 6 players were summarily dismissed from the team. My dad's letter states that UNM had to slog on with a team essentially "cobbled together with walk-ons and football players."


Wait, what? Sounds like they falsified transcripts/gave fake grades for one season, and then the NCAA dropped the hammer on them? To the tune of firing the coach and not allowing the players to play? And they did this midseason? Granted, in this case the coach was intimately involved; they had recordings of him making arrangements to attempt to make the ineligible players eligible. But still...
There were some serious pecuniary inducements involved in that case (https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch?miSearchSubmit=publicReport&key=347&publicTerms=THIS%20PHRASE%20WILL%20NOT%20BE%20REPE ATED).

Henderson
03-12-2016, 05:46 PM
Wow, the NCAA had Charles Alan Wright as the chairman of the COI back then. That'd put some muscle behind a sanction.

Duke79UNLV77
03-12-2016, 06:49 PM
While I haven't given up hope for eventual justice, it is very disappointing that the NCAA hasn't gotten anything done before the tournament. That's a big win for UNC.

SCMatt33
03-12-2016, 07:01 PM
While I haven't given up hope for eventual justice, it is very disappointing that the NCAA hasn't gotten anything done before the tournament. That's a big win for UNC.

That was never going to happen and even if it had, it would have imposed punishment for next year, like it did with Hawaii. For some reason they seem to have set that line at the start of the season, not the start of the school year, which is disappointing for a team like SMU, who's players didn't get a chance to evaluate whether they wanted to stick around.

jv001
03-12-2016, 07:29 PM
That was never going to happen and even if it had, it would have imposed punishment for next year, like it did with Hawaii. For some reason they seem to have set that line at the start of the season, not the start of the school year, which is disappointing for a team like SMU, who's players didn't get a chance to evaluate whether they wanted to stick around.

The NCAA was never going to hit the cheats this season because this will be the last chance for another NCAAT title in a long time. I'm torn between wanting this thing to drag out because it's certainly hurting their recruiting. Next season could be another trip to the NIT or even worse. I'm hoping for worse and they deserve it. GoDuke!

killerleft
03-13-2016, 10:12 AM
The NCAA was never going to hit the cheats this season because this will be the last chance for another NCAAT title in a long time. I'm torn between wanting this thing to drag out because it's certainly hurting their recruiting. Next season could be another trip to the NIT or even worse. I'm hoping for worse and they deserve it. GoDuke!

I would be flabbergasted to learn that your first statement is true, though I have heard such a supposition before. Do you have any - any - intel that would remotely suggest that it is a fact, or even a possibility? You have implied that the NCAA is complicit in this delay.

I do love a conspiracy theory, so please give it up. Keep in mind that very few NCAA investigations move faster than at a snail's pace. Well, unless the university has the good sense to admit to the wrongdoing.

BigWayne
03-13-2016, 01:25 PM
I would be flabbergasted to learn that your first statement is true, though I have heard such a supposition before. Do you have any - any - intel that would remotely suggest that it is a fact, or even a possibility? You have implied that the NCAA is complicit in this delay.

I do love a conspiracy theory, so please give it up. Keep in mind that very few NCAA investigations move faster than at a snail's pace. Well, unless the university has the good sense to admit to the wrongdoing.

Without going and doing exhaustive research, my recollection is that NCAA imposed punishments usually kick in with "next" season whenever handed down. The midseason punishments I can remember have all been self imposed and, with the notable exception of Lousiville this year, usually in a year when post season prospects for the punished teams were below average.

madscavenger
03-13-2016, 02:37 PM
I do love a conspiracy theory, so please give it up.

Well, chew on this for awhile.

From Wikipedia



..........John Swofford (born 1948) is the commissioner of the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC).

Swofford was born on December 6, 1948 in North Wilkesboro, North Carolina, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. While at Wilkes Central High School, he played as quarterback for the Wilkes Central Eagles football team and was twice selected to the all-state football team. He was awarded a prestigious Morehead Scholarship to attend the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he also played for the football team. He holds a master's degree in Sports Management from Ohio University. From 1980 to 1997 he was the athletic director for the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.............

Swofford could not possibly have not known about the paper classes and many of the other violations that have come to light. It is clear he also knew about willful schemes employed to hide such activities. Even worse, when facts managed to finally see the light of day he surely knew about, and likely participated in, numerous undertakings specifically designed to cover up the damming truth. Coverups costing millions to rid the possibility of disclosure by participants via retirement and other means and tens of millions in legal fees, PR, and on and on is at a minimum defacto proof of how serious this matter is. John Swofford was athletic director when it began and it would be incredibly disingenuous to conclude that he was not aware of it continuing throughout the period charged.

So for the conspiracy buffs out there, consider this.

(1) Could he be protecting his beloved University from catastrophe?
(2) Could he be protecting himself; his reputation, his wallet, his butt?
(3) Could he be defending the about to be soundly tarnished Carolina Way?
or (lets get really out on a limb),
(4) Could he be under the threat of blackmail?
or maybe,
(5) Any combination of the above and others unspoken (or possibly all of them).

I say to you conspiracy buffs, buck up. Money and power may rule the day,
but know this: the truth is priceless. Eventually it will surface. Shame on them.
Salvation is not for sale.

TKG
03-14-2016, 02:58 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14966467/ncaa-tournament-bracket-leaked

So the NCAA is exorcised about the brackets being released a few minutes early but a three-decade long fraud is met with a collective shoulder shrug. You have to admire their sense of propriety.

arnie
03-14-2016, 03:58 PM
Well, chew on this for awhile.

From Wikipedia




Swofford could not possibly have not known about the paper classes and many of the other violations that have come to light. It is clear he also knew about willful schemes employed to hide such activities. Even worse, when facts managed to finally see the light of day he surely knew about, and likely participated in, numerous undertakings specifically designed to cover up the damming truth. Coverups costing millions to rid the possibility of disclosure by participants via retirement and other means and tens of millions in legal fees, PR, and on and on is at a minimum defacto proof of how serious this matter is. John Swofford was athletic director when it began and it would be incredibly disingenuous to conclude that he was not aware of it continuing throughout the period charged.

So for the conspiracy buffs out there, consider this.

(1) Could he be protecting his beloved University from catastrophe?
(2) Could he be protecting himself; his reputation, his wallet, his butt?
(3) Could he be defending the about to be soundly tarnished Carolina Way?
or (lets get really out on a limb),
(4) Could he be under the threat of blackmail?
or maybe,
(5) Any combination of the above and others unspoken (or possibly all of them).

I say to you conspiracy buffs, buck up. Money and power may rule the day,
but know this: the truth is priceless. Eventually it will surface. Shame on them.
Salvation is not for sale.

Glad to see another fan (like Arnie) paranoid over Swofford's presence in the fiasco. I strongly suspect he has negotiated a delay with the NCAA.

SmartDevil
03-14-2016, 04:43 PM
Swofford should be canned.

And the conference's governing agreements should be amended to prohibit any graduate or former emplyee of an ACC school from holding the position of Commissioner. It should be effective 3-6 months after enactment. And it should apply to the incumbent.

Tom B.
03-14-2016, 05:14 PM
And the conference's governing agreements should be amended to prohibit any graduate or former emplyee of an ACC school from holding the position of Commissioner.

Well, that would eliminate a lot of qualified candidates. It also would've eliminated Swofford's predecessor, Gene Corrigan (Duke alumnus, former coach and administrator at Virginia), who was widely respected as a strong and effective commissioner during a period of great growth for the conference.

I didn't realize, though that Swofford has now been the commissioner for almost 20 years (he took the job in 1997). That's a long time. Might be time for him to think about moving on and making room for the next generation of leaders.

killerleft
03-14-2016, 08:12 PM
Well, chew on this for awhile.

From Wikipedia




Swofford could not possibly have not known about the paper classes and many of the other violations that have come to light. It is clear he also knew about willful schemes employed to hide such activities. Even worse, when facts managed to finally see the light of day he surely knew about, and likely participated in, numerous undertakings specifically designed to cover up the damming truth. Coverups costing millions to rid the possibility of disclosure by participants via retirement and other means and tens of millions in legal fees, PR, and on and on is at a minimum defacto proof of how serious this matter is. John Swofford was athletic director when it began and it would be incredibly disingenuous to conclude that he was not aware of it continuing throughout the period charged.

So for the conspiracy buffs out there, consider this.

(1) Could he be protecting his beloved University from catastrophe?
(2) Could he be protecting himself; his reputation, his wallet, his butt?
(3) Could he be defending the about to be soundly tarnished Carolina Way?
or (lets get really out on a limb),
(4) Could he be under the threat of blackmail?
or maybe,
(5) Any combination of the above and others unspoken (or possibly all of them).

I say to you conspiracy buffs, buck up. Money and power may rule the day,
but know this: the truth is priceless. Eventually it will surface. Shame on them.
Salvation is not for sale.

That is certainly more to chew on.

madscavenger
03-15-2016, 04:20 AM
Still hungry? How about desserts (just desserts?)


FROM WIKIPEDIA



Mark Allen Emmert (born December 16, 1952) is the current president of the National Collegiate Athletic Association. He is the fifth CEO of the NCAA; he was named as the incoming president on April 27, 2010 and assumed his duties on November 1, 2010 .......


Montana State University

Emmert served as Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Montana State University from 1991 to 1995.......The NCAA ruled that Montana State was guilty of a "lack of institutional control" in 1993 — the same time Emmert belonged to the university's senior management team, along with Jim Isch, a former NCAA official. The case related to academic fraud involving an assistant men's basketball coach and a recruit. The NCAA didn't rule on the case until after Emmert left for UConn in 1995. Emmert had no involvement with the athletic programs in his role as Provost and was unaware of the investigation.[2]

University of Connecticut

Emmert joined the University of Connecticut in 1995 as Provost and was later promoted to the position of Chancellor for Academic Affairs, where he oversaw academic matters at the main campus in Storrs.......Emmert oversaw the first two years of a ten-year-long, $1 billion construction project, UConn 2000, that added many new academic buildings, residence halls and landscape projects to the Storrs campus, and new buildings and facilities to the regional campuses. UConn 2000 is widely credited with transforming the university. Some of the projects became controversial because of charges of mismanagement in the facilities and contracting services. These issues, which included more than $100 million lost due to mismanagement and more than 100 fire and safety code violations, did not come to light during Emmert's tenure. Something handwritten on Emmert's stationery in 1998 suggested he was aware of issues with the construction project. The project became the focus of a state investigation in 2005. Governor Rell called it "astonishing failure of oversight and management." Two administrators who oversaw the projects during this time were placed on leave and subsequently resigned six years after Emmert had left the university.[2]

Louisiana State University

Emmert was named Chancellor of LSU in 1999............. In 2001-02, a university instructor made accusations of academic fraud in the school's football program, including plagiarized papers and un-enrolled students showing up in class to take notes for football players. At the time, LSU was already on NCAA probation due to violations in the men's basketball program for violations that predated Emmert's employment. A university-led investigation into the academic fraud allegations found only minor violations. The report stated, "Despite isolated incidents, the allegations were largely unfounded." The NCAA accepted LSU's finding and self-imposed minor penalties (loss of two football scholarships) and declined to put the school on probation. Subsequently, two women sued the university for forcing them from their jobs as a result of whistleblowing about the academic fraud. The lawsuits were settled for $110,000 for each person. During the case, an employee of the academic counseling center confirmed the women's claims under oath, including changed grades for football players. A portion of Emmert's salary was paid by the LSU Foundation and the Tiger Athletic Foundation.[2]

National Collegiate Athletic Association

On April 27, 2010, Emmert was named President of the National Collegiate Athletic Association in Indianapolis, Indiana. He assumed his duties on November 1, 2010 and remains president today......... Students can now be offered four-year scholarships rather than a single year scholarship as previously required. All restrictions on meals and food provided by schools have been lifted. Student athletes are now eligible to receive scholarship funds for the "full cost of attendance," which in most cases provides several thousand dollars per year in addition to tuition, fees, room and board, books and supplies....... In 2014 the NCAA Division I member universities, with Emmert's support, voted to change the system used to set their rules and policies so as to include greater input from athletic directors, faculty members, and senior women's athletics, in addition to the university and college presidents who are ultimately responsible for all policy and governance decisions. In 2012 the colleges and universities approved substantial changes to the compliance and oversight policies of the Association. Among other improvements, under Emmert's term, the Committee on Infractions, the body that determines penalties and sanctions for rules violations, was expanded to include former university presidents and legal scholars, among others.......

Penn State case

During Emmert's tenure, Pennsylvania State University was rocked by the Jerry Sandusky sex abuse scandal....... In response to the uniqueness of the Penn State case and the nature of the allegations, the NCAA Executive Committee and Emmert agreed with the University that Penn State should be allowed to conduct its own inquiry into the scandal........ While many in the media called for Penn State football to receive the so-called "Death Penalty," the Executive Committee and Emmert instead entered into the Consent Decree with Penn State leadership........ and the imposition of an Athletic Integrity Agreement ...... The Athletic Integrity Agreement, contained in the consent decree, called upon Penn State to make a large number of administrative and personnel changes over a multiple-year period. Senator Mitchell, in his role as monitor, found that the university was very aggressive in fulfilling the agreement, and recommended to Emmert and the NCAA Executive Committee that some of the sanctions be reduced in recognition of Penn State's positive actions. The Executive Committee agreed and on two occasions reduced the sanctions as a result of the university's seriousness in addressing these matters...... Several legal actions have occurred since the Penn State scandal was uncovered, some involving Penn State, Emmert, and the NCAA and its members; others have been focused on the university itself as it made restitution with the victims of the scandal. A legal suit was brought against Penn State and the NCAA by Senator Corman from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania regarding where the funds from the fine should be spent.[16] The case was ultimately settled by an agreement that the funds could be spent on child sex abuse prevention within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and that the wins that had been vacated from the record book be restored. Major news media outlets lambasted Emmert for his rush to judgment and started asking whether the culture at the NCAA was broken under Emmert's leadership.[17] His presidency has been called "feckless, arrogant, self-aggrandizing, inept" and operating under "tortured logic....



AND, FROM USA TODAY

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/04/02/ncaa-president-emmert-previous-cases-uconn-lsu/2047607/

Digging into the past of NCAA President Mark Emmert
Brent Schrotenboer, USA TODAY Sports 8:28 a.m. EDT April 3, 2013

================================================== ==

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-15-2016, 07:15 AM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14966467/ncaa-tournament-bracket-leaked

So the NCAA is exorcised about the brackets being released a few minutes early but a three-decade long fraud is met with a collective shoulder shrug. You have to admire their sense of propriety.

Only the minds of this board can make the released brackets a statemwnt about the UNC scandal. I am so proud of you guys.

TNDukeFan
03-15-2016, 07:27 AM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14966467/ncaa-tournament-bracket-leaked

So the NCAA is exorcised about the brackets being released a few minutes early but a three-decade long fraud is met with a collective shoulder shrug. You have to admire their sense of propriety.

I think you mean 'exercised,' but the original word choice is too rich to even begin to comprehend.

Tom B.
03-15-2016, 06:04 PM
Bumping this back up, and offering the following contribution from UNC Professor Jay Smith to HuffPo for your reading pleasure. (Nothing really new here, but if nothing else, he continues to beat the drum and keep the scandal in the public eye.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-m-smith/college-basketball-an-unhealthy-addiction_b_9463152.html

slower
03-15-2016, 06:20 PM
The NCAA was never going to hit the cheats this season because this will be the last chance for another NCAAT title in a long time.

I disagree. If they win it all this year, they'll be right back at or near the top. They know this, and it's a trade they'll gladly make. Don't fool yourself. Any penalties will just be a temporary speed bump.

madscavenger
03-16-2016, 04:50 AM
i for one will be looking forward to watching Ole Roy work his magic with a bevy of ====> 3 count 'em 3 <==== star players

BigWayne
03-16-2016, 12:45 PM
Bumping this back up, and offering the following contribution from UNC Professor Jay Smith to HuffPo for your reading pleasure. (Nothing really new here, but if nothing else, he continues to beat the drum and keep the scandal in the public eye.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-m-smith/college-basketball-an-unhealthy-addiction_b_9463152.html

Not completely new, but he directly accuses the 1993 team of having "been aided and abetted by fraud."

He details specific students (not by name, but by actions) that should have been ineligible in the 1988-1993 time frame. I do not recall having seen those details this clearly spelled out for that early stage of the scam.

devildeac
03-16-2016, 01:41 PM
Not completely new, but he directly accuses the 1993 team of having "been aided and abetted by fraud."

He details specific students (not by name, but by actions) that should have been ineligible in the 1988-1993 time frame. I do not recall having seen those details this clearly spelled out for that early stage of the scam.

Hopefully, the NCAA knows this info and will use it wisely in due time/process.

BD80
03-16-2016, 02:46 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14966467/ncaa-tournament-bracket-leaked

So the NCAA is exorcised about the brackets being released a few minutes early but a three-decade long fraud is met with a collective shoulder shrug. You have to admire their sense of propriety.


I think you mean 'exercised,' but the original word choice is too rich to even begin to comprehend.

Good thing he didn't mean to use circumspect.

swood1000
03-17-2016, 10:37 AM
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TKG http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=868424#post868424)
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...bracket-leaked (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14966467/ncaa-tournament-bracket-leaked)

So the NCAA is exorcised about the brackets being released a few minutes early but a three-decade long fraud is met with a collective shoulder shrug. You have to admire their sense of propriety.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TNDukeFan http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=868610#post868610)
I think you mean 'exercised,' but the original word choice is too rich to even begin to comprehend.

Good thing he didn't mean to use circumspect.
Or castigated.

OldPhiKap
03-17-2016, 08:53 PM
Norman Chad (@NormanChad)
3/17/16, 9:02 PM
Tough week for North Carolina basketball players:
Thursday – First-round game.
Friday – Phantom-class finals.
Saturday – Second-round game.

BigWayne
03-20-2016, 02:44 PM
Ted Tatos ‏@BlueDevilicious 43m43 minutes ago

Seeing the NCAA's "prioritizing academics" commercials reminds me of propaganda we heard growing up in Eastern Europe during the Cold War.

arnie
03-20-2016, 03:08 PM
Ted Tatos ‏@BlueDevilicious 43m43 minutes ago

Seeing the NCAA's "prioritizing academics" commercials reminds me of propaganda we heard growing up in Eastern Europe during the Cold War.

Although it does seem more appropriate to air those commercials in games that don't include the Heels.

DU82
03-21-2016, 06:17 PM
What in the world is this doing on the second page? You'd think there was, say, actual basketball games going on!

Anyway, came across this yesterday on one of my favorite web pages, Uni Watch (the regular site, not the EPSN posts.)

The article was actually about Marquette's unique '70s uniforms, but check out the color of the cheater's uniforms. http://www.uni-watch.com/2016/03/18/saints-unveil-50th-season-patch/. Before renovations a few years back, you could rely see the difference in Carmichael.

Over about 15 years, the green has been fade out, leaving a pale imitation of their history.

(Steal their colors from Columbia, fight song from a Sunday School children's hymn, I'm sure you can add to the list.)

Indoor66
03-21-2016, 06:58 PM
What in the world is this doing on the second page? You'd think there was, say, actual basketball games going on!

Anyway, came across this yesterday on one of my favorite web pages, Uni Watch (the regular site, not the EPSN posts.)

The article was actually about Marquette's unique '70s uniforms, but check out the color of the cheater's uniforms. http://www.uni-watch.com/2016/03/18/saints-unveil-50th-season-patch/. Before renovations a few years back, you could rely see the difference in Carmichael.

Over about 15 years, the green has been fade out, leaving a pale imitation of their history.

(Steal their colors from Columbia, fight song from a Sunday School children's hymn, I'm sure you can add to the list.)

I think that photo is a distortion of the unCheat color - even from that era. I do not recall them ever being that green. They might well have been a little deeper blue that the current sissy blue they wear.

BigWayne
03-21-2016, 07:16 PM
I think that photo is a distortion of the unCheat color - even from that era. I do not recall them ever being that green. They might well have been a little deeper blue that the current sissy blue they wear.

They have changed over time:
6134
6135
6136

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-21-2016, 07:20 PM
They have changed over time:
6134
6135
6136
Ouch! My eyes! They're burning!

madscavenger
03-21-2016, 11:06 PM
Must be a mirage. Shouldn't it read NOT Worthy? That hasn't changed over time either.

DU82
03-22-2016, 05:33 AM
I think that photo is a distortion of the unCheat color - even from that era. I do not recall them ever being that green. They might well have been a little deeper blue that the current sissy blue they wear.

It's very close to the colors in Carmichael before the renovation. It WAS that green.

swood1000
03-22-2016, 05:42 PM
They have changed over time:
6134
6135
6136
As Justice Potter Stewart said about obscenity, maybe I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

OldPhiKap
03-22-2016, 06:00 PM
As Justice Potter Stewart said about obscenity, maybe I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

Two Potter Stewart quotes on the board in one afternoon. I LOVE DBR.

BandAlum83
03-22-2016, 06:12 PM
As Justice Potter Stewart said about obscenity, maybe I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

It seems Duke isn't the only school that can't standardize, control, and consistently produce product school colors. I think there was an article written about this somewhere. Here, found it http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/true-blue The university's official color, how it was chosen, and why it never seems to look the same.(From the Duke magazine).

The sponsors, NIKE, etc. cause schools to be limited in the actual palette to be used.

Back in the early 80's, when I worked with the University stores it was an issue, as there wasn't a consistent color of shirts, sweatshirts, hats, etc. We would see Duke blue anywhere from navy blue to royal blue. I was told at the time that the official color is Prussian Blue.

I didn't know at the time that there are PMS codes and RGBY numbers that should be used. The duke style guide http://styleguide.duke.edu/identity/color-palette/ states that "The official Duke blue for print materials is PMS 287 or 288". I find this odd, as there is a significant difference between the 2.

Anyway, this becomes an issue for branding that schools struggle with. It would appear, however, that UNC has made a conscious decision to move towards a lighter shade more towards a powder blue.

Interesting

MarkD83
03-22-2016, 06:35 PM
It would appear, however, that UNC has made a conscious decision to move towards a lighter shade more towards a powder blue.

Interesting

UNC had to match the color of the seats that are fading in the Dean Dome....my bad those are the argyle sweaters of the fans who rarely get out of their seats to cheer.

-jk
03-22-2016, 07:41 PM
It seems Duke isn't the only school that can't standardize, control, and consistently produce product school colors. I think there was an article written about this somewhere. Here, found it http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/true-blue The university's official color, how it was chosen, and why it never seems to look the same.(From the Duke magazine).

The sponsors, NIKE, etc. cause schools to be limited in the actual palette to be used.

Back in the early 80's, when I worked with the University stores it was an issue, as there wasn't a consistent color of shirts, sweatshirts, hats, etc. We would see Duke blue anywhere from navy blue to royal blue. I was told at the time that the official color is Prussian Blue.

I didn't know at the time that there are PMS codes and RGBY numbers that should be used. The duke style guide http://styleguide.duke.edu/identity/color-palette/ states that "The official Duke blue for print materials is PMS 287 or 288". I find this odd, as there is a significant difference between the 2.

Anyway, this becomes an issue for branding that schools struggle with. It would appear, however, that UNC has made a conscious decision to move towards a lighter shade more towards a powder blue.

Interesting

Duke uses a range of darkish blues; it's a vendor thing - anything from royal to navy, even if it should be bright navy. On the other hand, unc has methodically taken the green out of their lighter blue. I'm color-blind, but even I can tell the difference between what they wore when I was a kid and today.

-jk

DU82
03-22-2016, 08:16 PM
Duke uses a range of darkish blues; it's a vendor thing - anything from royal to navy, even if it should be bright navy. On the other hand, unc has methodically taken the green out of their lighter blue. I'm color-blind, but even I can tell the difference between what they wore when I was a kid and today.

-jk

Funny that the color-blind guy (you) originally pointed the color change out to me!

And as I've told you over the years, red is on top, yellow in the middle, and green on the bottom. Unless you're in Syracuse...

http://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2016/03/throwback_thursday_an_act_of_v.html

BandAlum83
03-22-2016, 09:11 PM
Funny that the color-blind guy (you) originally pointed the color change out to me!

And as I've told you over the years, red is on top, yellow in the middle, and green on the bottom. Unless you're in Syracuse...

http://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2016/03/throwback_thursday_an_act_of_v.html


That's right, if I know who you are, and remember correctly, you're a traffic engineer, right?

DU82
03-22-2016, 09:13 PM
That's right, if I know who you are, and remember correctly, you're a traffic engineer, right?

DG, that's correct. nice to see you around here.

BandAlum83
03-22-2016, 09:22 PM
DG, that's correct. nice to see you around here.

Thanks! Glad I found this place :)

Skitzle
03-23-2016, 07:06 AM
Just ranting, but if UNC wins the championship I'm going to extra angry that their stupid ploy to stall was successful... ABC...9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F

OldPhiKap
03-23-2016, 07:38 AM
Just ranting, but if UNC wins the championship I'm going to extra angry that their stupid ploy to stall was successful... ABC...9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F

If that comes to pass, hopefully the NCAA will be equally angry.

Indoor66
03-23-2016, 07:54 AM
Funny that the color-blind guy (you) originally pointed the color change out to me!

And as I've told you over the years, red is on top, yellow in the middle, and green on the bottom. Unless you're in Syracuse...

http://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2016/03/throwback_thursday_an_act_of_v.html

Orange and traffic lighfs is a function of speed for me - whether in Syracuse or not. :cool:

swood1000
03-23-2016, 02:48 PM
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Skitzle http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=871563#post871563)
Just ranting, but if UNC wins the championship I'm going to extra angry that their stupid ploy to stall was successful... ABC...9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F
If that comes to pass, hopefully the NCAA will be equally angry.
The NCAA Enforcement Staff might just be waiting to rain on their parade with the release of a new NOA just as the flashbulbs go off.

BigWayne
03-24-2016, 11:59 AM
I would classify this piece (http://www.neboagency.com/blog/how-unc-emerged-from-a-pr-crisis/) as "a few minutes inside a PR person's head, UNC alumni version." It's not a pretty place to be.


The scandal didn’t taint any of UNC’s magic for me. In many ways, it made me even more proud to be a Tar Heel.

77devil
03-24-2016, 12:28 PM
I would classify this piece (http://www.neboagency.com/blog/how-unc-emerged-from-a-pr-crisis/) as "a few minutes inside a PR person's head, UNC alumni version." It's not a pretty place to be.

Wow, the kool aid is strong in CH. That piece borders on delusional. No mention of the SACOS rejecting UNC's remediation plan and probation.

Reminds me of a recent survey of millennials in which a significant majority believe that the U.S. is the most proficient in secondary math and science while being mediocre.

But then isn't the objective of PR to blur the difference between belief and truth.

plimnko
03-24-2016, 02:50 PM
UNC’s Reputation Was Impeccable Until it Wasn’t: How the University Emerged from a PR Crisis


PR Crisis??? you mean when everybody found out they were nothing but a bunch of cheaters? maybe if they win, they'll take down the 2016 banner at the same time they remove the 2005 and 2009 banners.

MulletMan
03-24-2016, 03:19 PM
UNC’s Reputation Was Impeccable Until it Wasn’t: How the University Emerged from a PR Crisis


PR Crisis??? you mean when everybody found out they were nothing but a bunch of cheaters? maybe if they win, they'll take down the 2016 banner at the same time they remove the 2005 and 2009 banners.

Not for nuthin' but this quote from the opening salvo: "while professor Aziz Sncar’s mapping of the DNA repair system in cancer cells won him and his peers the Nobel Prize in Chemistry" is not quite completely accurate.

Just sayin'. LGD. (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2015/press.html)

But seriously... this isn't a real blog, right? This is a website constructed by a PR firm.

DukieInKansas
03-24-2016, 04:21 PM
UNC’s Reputation Was Impeccable Until it Wasn’t: How the University Emerged from a PR Crisis


PR Crisis??? you mean when everybody found out they were nothing but a bunch of cheaters? maybe if they win, they'll take down the 2016 banner at the same time they remove the 2005 and 2009 banners.

I got stuck on the emerged portion. I didn't think it was over so they can't have emerged from anything.

BigWayne
03-25-2016, 09:37 AM
NCAA so upset over the Tarheels, they dropped the hammer on Kalamazoo College (http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/24/ncaa-gets-serious-about-cheating-by-punishing-some-tiny-obscure-college-in-michigan/#ixzz43v6Wo4wv)

Bob lee weighs in on it also. (http://bobleesays.com/2016/03/24/ncaa-finally-drops-its-hammer-on)


Previously known as “that college in that funny-named town where Derek Jeter is from”; Kalamazoo College was apparently The Priority Case that the NCAA Infractions Committee has been obsessed with over the past five years. Hopefully the committee can now turn its attention to “other cases on their docket”. ….. if ya get my drift.

The #1 question that seemed to befuddle the NCAA was why anyone would pay $51,700/year to attend Kalamazoo College.

swood1000
03-25-2016, 11:12 AM
I would classify this piece (http://www.neboagency.com/blog/how-unc-emerged-from-a-pr-crisis/) as "a few minutes inside a PR person's head, UNC alumni version." It's not a pretty place to be.

The scandal didn’t taint any of UNC’s magic for me. In many ways, it made me even more proud to be a Tar Heel.
You know you're dealing with an entity that's one of a kind when it produces in its adherents a pride in wrongdoing.

Olympic Fan
03-25-2016, 11:49 AM
I was scanning my favorite liberal website last night when I got a bit of a thrill to see this headline:

NCAA Fires a Shot Across North Carolina's Bow

Alas, the story was not anything about the UNC scandal, but was about the NCAA's response to the state's controversial action in overruling Mecklenberg County's non-discrimination law. It does have relevance to us -- the NCAA warns that it may initiate the same boycott against North Carolina that has kept South Carolina from hosting NCAA events for more than a decade because of the flag issue:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/03/25/1505920/-The-NCAA-Fires-a-Shot-Across-North-Carolina-s-Bow

(Warning: this is from Daily Kos, the liberal equivalent to the Drudge Report, so it may approach the issue from a point of view that borders on PPB territory. But it does link to the NCAA response and that's pretty straightforward -- and worrying to someone who wants to see Duke playing NCAA games in North Carolina in the future).

BandAlum83
03-25-2016, 12:01 PM
I was scanning my favorite liberal website last night when I got a bit of a thrill to see this headline:

NCAA Fires a Shot Across North Carolina's Bow

Alas, the story was not anything about the UNC scandal, but was about the NCAA's response to the state's controversial action in overruling Mecklenberg County's non-discrimination law. It does have relevance to us -- the NCAA warns that it may initiate the same boycott against North Carolina that has kept South Carolina from hosting NCAA events for more than a decade because of the flag issue:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/03/25/1505920/-The-NCAA-Fires-a-Shot-Across-North-Carolina-s-Bow

(Warning: this is from Daily Kos, the liberal equivalent to the Drudge Report, so it may approach the issue from a point of view that borders on PPB territory. But it does link to the NCAA response and that's pretty straightforward -- and worrying to someone who wants to see Duke playing NCAA games in North Carolina in the future).


Not treading into political, but just wanted to correct this. Drudge is a news consolidation site that spins headlines for conservative affect and links (mostly conservative news sites). There is no commentary, analysis or reader input. I'm not sure there is a liberal equivalent.

Dailykos is a democratic (liberal/progressive) online forum with posts/blogs by readers and with a permanent staff of front page contributors. Think of it as a DBR for left politics.

The conservative equivalent to Dailykos would be redstates.com or freerepublic.com

See? Purely informational. I bet from this post you can't even tell if I lean left or right!

bedeviled
03-25-2016, 12:25 PM
I've enjoyed laughing at the NCAA rocking their new slogan: Prioritizing academics, well-being, & fairness.
It turns out that the real winner in college sports is the PR industry!

If you had your tv muted during the game, you might have missed this gem, one of the PR efforts recently added to the NCAA's YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paNtI1zKB04

BD80
03-25-2016, 05:04 PM
I've enjoyed laughing at the NCAA rocking their new slogan: Prioritizing academics, well-being, & fairness.
It turns out that the real winner in college sports is the PR industry!

If you had your tv muted during the game, you might have missed this gem, one of the PR efforts recently added to the NCAA's YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paNtI1zKB04

Based on the unc issue, the NCAA has chosen the alternate definition of "prioritize:

"Determine the order for dealing with (a series of items or tasks) according to their relative importance:"

And academics just ain't as important as money.

Doria
03-26-2016, 03:38 AM
Somewhat amusingly, CBS offered this look ahead:


Good news, NCAA: We're two wins away from the Academic Fraud semifinal between North Carolina and Syracuse. The NCAA would love that Final Four week in Houston. For sheer symbolism of the state of college sports, pairing the Hall of Fame coach who self-imposed an NCAA Tournament ban last year against the Hall of Famer still waiting for his school's academic fraud verdict would feel appropriate.

OldPhiKap
03-26-2016, 07:51 AM
Somewhat amusingly, CBS offered this look ahead:

'You must spread some comments around before commenting on Doria again"

Shame, 'cause that's great stuff right there.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 08:32 AM
'You must spread some comments around before commenting on Doria again"

Shame, 'cause that's great stuff right there.

OPK is correct. Very nice find by Doria. Somebody spork him/her cuz I haven't been as promiscuous recently as I should be. :o

cspan37421
03-26-2016, 08:38 AM
I had a daydream yesterday that UNC won the title, and as they gathered on the podium, the announcer said, "And now for the presentation. Please welcome, the chair of the Committee on Infractions ... "

Ah, if you guys could have seen the look on Ol' Roy's tanned and leathered face.

Doria
03-26-2016, 08:39 AM
OPK is correct. Very nice find by Doria. Somebody spork him/her cuz I haven't been as promiscuous recently as I should be. :o

I am a her, and no worries. Doing good works is its own reward!

devildeac
03-26-2016, 08:40 AM
I had a daydream yesterday that UNC won the title, and as they gathered on the podium, the announcer said, "And now for the presentation. Please welcome, the chair of the Committee on Infractions ... "

Ah, if you guys could have seen the look on Ol' Roy's tanned and leathered face.

I wanna come take a nap in your Lazy Boy this afternoon. :o

slower
03-26-2016, 09:09 AM
As I stated earlier in the thread, if UNC wins the title this year, then everything they've done w/r/t legal and PR efforts will have been worth it (for them).

They've already won the first battle, in that no penalties were assessed before their current tourney run. If they DO win the title, I honestly believe the NCAA will go even easier on them then we expect. UNC Basketball is a valuable brand for them to protect, and they WILL protect it.

If they win the title, ANY penalties they receive will have been worth it, because they'll have that title in hand. They'll have a minor "speed bump" and be back among the top-tier programs.

Winners write history. If they skate with minor penalties and win the title, they will take insufferable to new levels. They'll feel as if they're bulletproof, which they may, in fact, be.

OldPhiKap
03-26-2016, 09:53 AM
I am a her, and no worries. Doing good works is its own reward!

Ironically, in the City of Angels . . . .

arnie
03-26-2016, 10:23 AM
Winners write history. If they skate with minor penalties and win the title, they will take insufferable to new levels. They'll feel as if they're bulletproof, which they may, in fact, be.

Unfortunately, this likely outcome will make for misery among ABC fans. Plus with the impending Coach K retirement, a dip in our fortunes will exacerbate the wrath of the lambs. Guess State and Duke fans will join forces in fighting the demons in this stare.

cspan37421
03-26-2016, 10:48 AM
As I stated earlier in the thread, if UNC wins the title this year, then everything they've done w/r/t legal and PR efforts will have been worth it (for them).

They've already won the first battle, in that no penalties were assessed before their current tourney run. If they DO win the title, I honestly believe the NCAA will go even easier on them then we expect. UNC Basketball is a valuable brand for them to protect, and they WILL protect it.

If they win the title, ANY penalties they receive will have been worth it, because they'll have that title in hand. They'll have a minor "speed bump" and be back among the top-tier programs.

Winners write history. If they skate with minor penalties and win the title, they will take insufferable to new levels. They'll feel as if they're bulletproof, which they may, in fact, be.

Then a lot of UNC's competitors would need to decide if it's worth being part of the NCAA if they are unwilling to enforce their rules in a fair and proportional way. The big dogs - including Duke - would have great incentive to hold their nose and look the other way, for they are as much beholden to TV money as anyone else, including UNC (and the NCAA). THe smaller dogs, the mutts - I don't know. If there's a lot of conference sharing of $$ perhaps they're too beholden too, and the system is irredeemably corrupt and unfixable - except if fans get so disgusted they quit watching (and turn their attention to something else). It all comes down to money, and I don't know much about that facet of the situation with the NCAA and member institutions - how feasible it is to break off from it. I do have a sense of the ethical side of things, and if UNC skates, it stinks to high heaven ... and hell, I may quit watching myself - why waste my time watching a league that protects frauds?

75Crazie
03-26-2016, 12:24 PM
They've already won the first battle, in that no penalties were assessed before their current tourney run. If they DO win the title, I honestly believe the NCAA will go even easier on them then we expect. UNC Basketball is a valuable brand for them to protect, and they WILL protect it.
That is exactly the opposite opinion from the very few on PP who claim to have contacts inside the NCAA (st8dukegrad87 being the best example). The word from them is that the NCAA committee is pretty pissed at the Carolina tactics and they expect some sort of hammer to fall. How hard the hammer will be is open to debate.

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 12:53 PM
Somewhat amusingly, CBS offered this look ahead:

Link? Or was this wishful thinking?

Stray Gator
03-26-2016, 01:05 PM
The prospect of UNC winning the title might be as much a discomfort for the NCAA as it is for Duke fans. If UNC wins the title and then the NCAA comes down with any sanctions that would affect the basketball program, it's likely that lots of people who are already not particularly enamored of the NCAA will be raising their eyebrows and asking why UNC was curiously allowed to delay the penalties long enough to participate in the NCAA's principal moneymaker event. Of course, one way the NCAA might conceivably defend itself is by saying that granting the extension to UNC based on its self-reporting of additional minor violations actually enabled the COI to uncover evidence of more serious major infractions not previously addressed in the Wainstein Report and Notice of Infractions -- including information about the alleged scheme of testing for learning disabilities that some reports indicate resulted in special benefits being granted to a disproportionate percentage of scholarship athletes at UNC. Anything is possible, but I'm skeptical that the NCAA could let UNC off with a mere slap on the wrist at this point; and if UNC wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA finds itself in the position of being obliged to impose more severe sanctions to deflect the ensuing criticism.

BandAlum83
03-26-2016, 01:08 PM
The prospect of UNC winning the title might be as much a discomfort for the NCAA as it is for Duke fans. If UNC wins the title and then the NCAA comes down with any sanctions that would affect the basketball program, it's likely that lots of people who are already not particularly enamored of the NCAA will be raising their eyebrows and asking why UNC was curiously allowed to delay the penalties long enough to participate in the NCAA's principal moneymaker event. Of course, one way the NCAA might conceivably defend itself is by saying that granting the extension to UNC based on its self-reporting of additional minor violations actually enabled the COI to uncover evidence of more serious major infractions not previously addressed in the Wainstein Report and Notice of Infractions -- including information about the alleged scheme of testing for learning disabilities that some reports indicate resulted in special benefits being granted to a disproportionate percentage of scholarship athletes at UNC. Anything is possible, but I'm skeptical that the NCAA could let UNC off with a mere slap on the wrist at this point; and if UNC wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA finds itself in the position of being obliged to impose more severe sanctions to deflect the ensuing criticism.

Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us?

No one else will care?

BigWayne
03-26-2016, 01:18 PM
Link? Or was this wishful thinking?

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25531298/sundays-elite-eight-an-all-acc-affair-after-league-goes-4-0-on-friday

arnie
03-26-2016, 01:20 PM
Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us?

No one else will care?

ESPN aholes have done a good job lying to the fans. I think along with
State fans, Boeheim and Pitino you've defined the outrage.

BigWayne
03-26-2016, 01:21 PM
The prospect of UNC winning the title might be as much a discomfort for the NCAA as it is for Duke fans. If UNC wins the title and then the NCAA comes down with any sanctions that would affect the basketball program, it's likely that lots of people who are already not particularly enamored of the NCAA will be raising their eyebrows and asking why UNC was curiously allowed to delay the penalties long enough to participate in the NCAA's principal moneymaker event. Of course, one way the NCAA might conceivably defend itself is by saying that granting the extension to UNC based on its self-reporting of additional minor violations actually enabled the COI to uncover evidence of more serious major infractions not previously addressed in the Wainstein Report and Notice of Infractions -- including information about the alleged scheme of testing for learning disabilities that some reports indicate resulted in special benefits being granted to a disproportionate percentage of scholarship athletes at UNC. Anything is possible, but I'm skeptical that the NCAA could let UNC off with a mere slap on the wrist at this point; and if UNC wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA finds itself in the position of being obliged to impose more severe sanctions to deflect the ensuing criticism.

I'll only be happy if they win the title if it then gets stripped right away because half the current team is fraudulently classified as LD and amped up on Adderall.

devildeac
03-26-2016, 01:37 PM
I'll only be happy if they win the title if it then gets stripped right away because half the current team is fraudulently classified as LD and amped up on Adderall.

Great thought, but that might take a while. After all, it only took them ~18-23 years to get caught cheating :rolleyes: :mad: .

slower
03-26-2016, 01:43 PM
That is exactly the opposite opinion from the very few on PP who claim to have contacts inside the NCAA (st8dukegrad87 being the best example). The word from them is that the NCAA committee is pretty pissed at the Carolina tactics and they expect some sort of hammer to fall. How hard the hammer will be is open to debate.

But my point is that UNC and their fans are willing to make that trade for a title. All that most people (and, I'd argue, recruits) will remember is who won. Once the penalties, whatever they are, expire, it will be like it never happened. But the banner will hang forever.

duke2x
03-26-2016, 01:59 PM
Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us? No one else will care?

If this happens, there are a bunch of schools that would look to sue the NCAA. I am far from an expert on NCAA law, but I think the NCAA would rather go to court against UNC. What I think will happen is everyone comes away unhappy. The other schools/ABCers will think they got off too light, and UNC alumni/fans will think they're wrongfully punished in their major revenue sports. This is pretty much happened with the football scandal at UNC, but they don't have 50 years of "good behavior" this time to mitigate the sanctions.

Doria
03-26-2016, 02:07 PM
Link? Or was this wishful thinking?

Ah, sorry... I was on the iPad this morning, and could only copy one thing at a time, and forgot to do the link. Thanks, BigWayne, for finding it.

I think it'd be hilarious if Carolina loses and then immediately--like in the post-game presser--self-imposes for next year.

Olympic Fan
03-26-2016, 05:59 PM
I've been on this thread (and the preceding ones about the scandal) before, constantly insisting that UNC will be punished ... and will be punished significantly.

I understand the frustration and the feeling many have that this is dragging on forever.

But the wheels of NCAA justice almost always turn slowly, unless the school itself acts quickly to end the scandal. UNC has elected not to do this ...

Remember, the NCAA case against Syracuse dragged on for almost nine years. Very often, these things take 2-3 years.

The UNC case really exploded with the publication of the Wainstein Report in the fall of 2014. The NCAA issued its NOA last May. The average time between issuance of an NOA and ruling by the COI is 9 months.

We're at 10 months now ... but is it surprising that the longest and most widespread case of fraud in NCAA history is going to take a few months more than average ... especially with UNC doing everything it can to delay (so that they can complete this basketball season)?

Have faith UNC will get what it deserves.

PS When I say UNC will get punished hard, I understand that no penalty short of the death penalty will be enough for some haters. It won't be that, but it will be multiple years in multiple sports (including men's basketball and football). Their will be scholarship reductions and monetary penalties. Will banners come down? That I'm not sure of, but I'd be surprised if there are not games vacated.

77devil
03-26-2016, 06:27 PM
I've been on this thread (and the preceding ones about the scandal) before, constantly insisting that UNC will be punished ... and will be punished significantly.

I understand the frustration and the feeling many have that this is dragging on forever.

But the wheels of NCAA justice almost always turn slowly, unless the school itself acts quickly to end the scandal. UNC has elected not to do this ...

Remember, the NCAA case against Syracuse dragged on for almost nine years. Very often, these things take 2-3 years.

The UNC case really exploded with the publication of the Wainstein Report in the fall of 2014. The NCAA issued its NOA last May. The average time between issuance of an NOA and ruling by the COI is 9 months.

We're at 10 months now ... but is it surprising that the longest and most widespread case of fraud in NCAA history is going to take a few months more than average ... especially with UNC doing everything it can to delay (so that they can complete this basketball season)?

Have faith UNC will get what it deserves.

PS When I say UNC will get punished hard, I understand that no penalty short of the death penalty will be enough for some haters. It won't be that, but it will be multiple years in multiple sports (including men's basketball and football). Their will be scholarship reductions and monetary penalties. Will banners come down? That I'm not sure of, but I'd be surprised if there are not games vacated.

How can games be vacated without banners coming down? Of course it's possible, but is the process so corrupt that the COI would cave on the 2005 banner at a minimum?

slower
03-26-2016, 07:09 PM
I've been on this thread (and the preceding ones about the scandal) before, constantly insisting that UNC will be punished ... and will be punished significantly.

I understand the frustration and the feeling many have that this is dragging on forever.

But the wheels of NCAA justice almost always turn slowly, unless the school itself acts quickly to end the scandal. UNC has elected not to do this ...

Remember, the NCAA case against Syracuse dragged on for almost nine years. Very often, these things take 2-3 years.

The UNC case really exploded with the publication of the Wainstein Report in the fall of 2014. The NCAA issued its NOA last May. The average time between issuance of an NOA and ruling by the COI is 9 months.

We're at 10 months now ... but is it surprising that the longest and most widespread case of fraud in NCAA history is going to take a few months more than average ... especially with UNC doing everything it can to delay (so that they can complete this basketball season)?

Have faith UNC will get what it deserves.

PS When I say UNC will get punished hard, I understand that no penalty short of the death penalty will be enough for some haters. It won't be that, but it will be multiple years in multiple sports (including men's basketball and football). Their will be scholarship reductions and monetary penalties. Will banners come down? That I'm not sure of, but I'd be surprised if there are not games vacated.
And you may be right about all of this. However, my point is that a title this year, in exchange for penalties in the future, is a trade that most UNC fans will gladly make. Long term, it's all about banners. If they win it, their strategy will have been successful.

-jk
03-26-2016, 08:43 PM
Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us?

No one else will care?

State fans will care, too. Otherwise, I still think they'll skate...

-jk

BD80
03-27-2016, 09:58 AM
I've been on this thread (and the preceding ones about the scandal) before, constantly insisting that UNC will be punished ... and will be punished significantly.

I understand the frustration and the feeling many have that this is dragging on forever.

But the wheels of NCAA justice almost always turn slowly, unless the school itself acts quickly to end the scandal. UNC has elected not to do this ...

Remember, the NCAA case against Syracuse dragged on for almost nine years. Very often, these things take 2-3 years.

The UNC case really exploded with the publication of the Wainstein Report in the fall of 2014. The NCAA issued its NOA last May. The average time between issuance of an NOA and ruling by the COI is 9 months.

We're at 10 months now ... but is it surprising that the longest and most widespread case of fraud in NCAA history is going to take a few months more than average ... especially with UNC doing everything it can to delay (so that they can complete this basketball season)?

Have faith UNC will get what it deserves.

PS When I say UNC will get punished hard, I understand that no penalty short of the death penalty will be enough for some haters. It won't be that, but it will be multiple years in multiple sports (including men's basketball and football). Their will be scholarship reductions and monetary penalties. Will banners come down? That I'm not sure of, but I'd be surprised if there are not games vacated.

Interesting thought (at least to me):

Would a natty for unc this year make it more likely /palatable for the NCAA to pull down prior banners, vacate wins?

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-27-2016, 10:10 AM
Interesting thought (at least to me):

Would a natty for unc this year make it more likely /palatable for the NCAA to pull down prior banners, vacate wins?
I was thinking about that too and came to the conclusion I would be just fine trading 2 banners down for 1 banner up (+ a load of vacated wins) followed by a multi-year down period and post-season absence. If that's what it has to be. The shame will be lost on them but not on everyone else.

Indoor66
03-27-2016, 10:22 AM
I was thinking about that too and came to the conclusion I would be just fine trading 2 banners down for 1 banner up (+ a load of vacated wins) followed by a multi-year down period and post-season absence. If that's what it has to be. The shame will be lost on them but not on everyone else.

I would prefer three down and no more up.

BD80
03-27-2016, 10:29 AM
I was thinking about that too and came to the conclusion I would be just fine trading 2 banners down for 1 banner up (+ a load of vacated wins) followed by a multi-year down period and post-season absence. If that's what it has to be. The shame will be lost on them but not on everyone else.

Could a mandated darkening of a school's primary color be enforced as a sanction?

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-27-2016, 10:34 AM
Could a mandated darkening of a school's primary color be enforced as a sanction?
Better yet, the NCAA mandates the "C" in all of their unis and apparel must be colored scarlet for the next 10 years.

sagegrouse
03-27-2016, 12:15 PM
Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us?

No one else will care?


If this happens, there are a bunch of schools that would look to sue the NCAA. I am far from an expert on NCAA law, but I think the NCAA would rather go to court against UNC. What I think will happen is everyone comes away unhappy. The other schools/ABCers will think they got off too light, and UNC alumni/fans will think they're wrongfully punished in their major revenue sports. This is pretty much happened with the football scandal at UNC, but they don't have 50 years of "good behavior" this time to mitigate the sanctions.

Every member of the Committee on Infractions has heard from schools that received severe penalties for possibly isolated incidents on the subject of Carolina's apparent wholesale violations numbering in the many hundreds. If UNC is not walloped, there will likely be an uproar in college sports against the NCAA and the COI.

hudlow
03-27-2016, 02:26 PM
Forgive me if this has been posted...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/27/mark-emmert-investigation-north-carolina-academic-fraud-nears-end/82319080/

Skitzle
03-27-2016, 02:36 PM
Summary

Mark Emmert "We waited till the end of the season so we could all make money one last time off this really good team. We were happy to give them this opportunity."

cspan37421
03-27-2016, 02:41 PM
Forgive me if this has been posted...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/27/mark-emmert-investigation-north-carolina-academic-fraud-nears-end/82319080/

money quote from Emmert:


“They wanted that opportunity and everyone was pleased to give them that opportunity, or willing to give them that opportunity. And it’s actually been moving forward well and in a cooperative collaborate fashion like these things are supposed to.’’

How lucky for UNC that they get to be cooperative collaborators with the judges who will decide their punishment. [Judge: A law student who marks his own examination papers - H.L. Mencken]

It makes me sick that GA's 2 retaliatory trips and coach K's breach of etiquette by admonishing another team's player (and foolishly trying to keep it hush) get plenty of damning press and outrage, but a 20-year run of pure athletic fraud gets none (during the tourney), as UNC marches on.

Henderson
03-27-2016, 04:45 PM
What's the over-under on the number of days after UNC-CH's end of season that the NCAA comes down with its decision? I say 58 days. I see no plausible scenario in which the NCAA isn't waiting for UNC to finish its season.

What are the chances that, win or lose, Ol' Roy "retires" after this year? I'd say 8-5 in favor of retirement.

If Roy does retire, would it be before the NCAA decision? 3-1 on yes? I think he'd get word ahead of time and look at available tee times.

Indoor66
03-27-2016, 04:49 PM
What's the over-under on the number of days after UNC-CH's end of season that the NCAA comes down with its decision? I say 58 days.

What are the chances that, win or lose, Ol' Roy "retires" after this year? I'd say 8-5 in favor of retirement.

On #2 I'd say more like 5-2.

sagegrouse
03-27-2016, 04:54 PM
Forgive me if this has been posted...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/27/mark-emmert-investigation-north-carolina-academic-fraud-nears-end/82319080/

CSPAN has pulled out a quote or two, but I would like to excerpt a little bit more, without violating wither the U.S. government's or DBR's "fair use doctrine."


The NCAA’s investigation into the academic scandal that occurred in the North Carolina athletics program is drawing to a close, according to NCAA President Mark Emmert.

“Sometime in the relatively near future we’ll move toward a resolution,’’ Emmert told USA TODAY Sports, adding that he did not have a specific deadline.

“It has obviously been a long, drawn out process,’’ Emmert said. “It took the university a long time to gather the facts on their end.

“They wanted that opportunity and everyone was pleased to give them that opportunity, or willing to give them that opportunity. And it’s actually been moving forward well and in a cooperative collaborate fashion like these things are supposed to.’’

The committee on infractions must hear the case before penalties are issued.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-27-2016, 06:17 PM
Halftime of UVA/Cuse was just a total Marcus Paige/Ol Roy lovefest. With Barkley going out of his way to say "forget about the basketball stuff" and praising Roy. Do all these jagoffs live in a frickin' bubble? I mean, I know Kenny "I played for Dean" Smith lives in his own world. But where did everyone else's balls go?

wsb3
03-28-2016, 08:23 AM
Halftime of UVA/Cuse was just a total Marcus Paige/Ol Roy lovefest. With Barkley going out of his way to say "forget about the basketball stuff" and praising Roy. Do all these jagoffs live in a frickin' bubble? I mean, I know Kenny "I played for Dean" Smith lives in his own world. But where did everyone else's balls go?

Unable to spork you.. :)

Lar77
03-28-2016, 09:33 AM
What's the over-under on the number of days after UNC-CH's end of season that the NCAA comes down with its decision? I say 58 days. I see no plausible scenario in which the NCAA isn't waiting for UNC to finish its season.

What are the chances that, win or lose, Ol' Roy "retires" after this year? I'd say 8-5 in favor of retirement.

If Roy does retire, would it be before the NCAA decision? 3-1 on yes? I think he'd get word ahead of time and look at available tee times.

Oh I have visions now of a "Law & Order" scenario. The cheats have reached their pinnacle. Roy is about to climb the ladder, and Jerry Ohrbach comes out and leads him off.

I agree that end of semester (including College World Series) is about the right time frame. Roy has a few publicized health reasons to leave. Based on that, 2-1 he will resign well before the NCAA decision is announced.

On another note, what about Swofford?

Channing
03-28-2016, 09:35 AM
for the sake of the kids on the team (;)) I hope it is before the final draft declaration date.

Duke95
03-28-2016, 10:11 AM
If you're listening to sports figures for indication of what will happen to UNC, you're listening to the wrong people.

The vast majority of sports writers are absolutely clueless about what's going on. If you're going to pay attention to someone in the sports journalism arena, pay attention to John Solomon at CBS.

swood1000
03-28-2016, 10:56 AM
Does anyone ever get the feeling a slap on the wrist will be all that happens, and the only outrage will come from us?

No one else will care?
If they do get a slap on the wrist I don't think the Enforcement Staff will be to blame. They are the ones responsible for this delay and I don't know what the delay could be for if not to put together the most bulletproof NOA imaginable.

Duke95
03-28-2016, 12:17 PM
We are waiting for a resolution to the punishment, not for an amended NOA.

CatDevil
03-28-2016, 12:38 PM
Unable to spork you.. :)

Doc definitely deserved the +1.... been handled:)

swood1000
03-28-2016, 12:55 PM
We are waiting for a resolution to the punishment, not for an amended NOA.
Patience. There is an order that must be followed. First the allegations, then the hearing, then the punishment.

aimo
03-28-2016, 01:20 PM
Patience. There is an order that must be followed. First the allegations, then the hearing, then the punishment.

Don't forget the whining and crying at the end. And the hysterical laughter.

OldPhiKap
03-28-2016, 01:33 PM
Don't forget the whining and crying at the end. And the hysterical laughter.

Wailing, and gnashing of teeth, is a mandatory minimum.

swood1000
03-28-2016, 01:56 PM
Wailing, and gnashing of teeth, is a mandatory minimum.
Interspersed with earnest and outraged protestations of unfairness, including how Duke would have gotten off scot free.

Duke95
03-28-2016, 02:10 PM
Patience. There is an order that must be followed. First the allegations, then the hearing, then the punishment.

The allegations have already occurred. The hearing was either in Feb or will be in April.
We are waiting for the punishment.

swood1000
03-28-2016, 02:20 PM
The allegations have already occurred. The hearing was either in Feb or will be in April.
We are waiting for the punishment.
Bubba Cunningham said in January (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article53603345.html) that they are waiting for the amended NOA. Do you have some newer information about that?

sagegrouse
03-28-2016, 02:31 PM
Bubba Cunningham said in January (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article53603345.html) that they are waiting for the amended NOA. Do you have some newer information about that?

Nope, I don't, and although I am a fairly trusting person, it doesn't extend to believing what Bubba Cunningham says.

swood1000
03-28-2016, 03:04 PM
Nope, I don't, and although I am a fairly trusting person, it doesn't extend to believing what Bubba Cunningham says.
But we have no particular reason to doubt Bubba when he said that they were waiting for the revised NOA, unless we can think of some way that this statement could involve some benefit to UNC, especially when it seems likely to be true.

Lar77
03-28-2016, 03:15 PM
But we have no particular reason to doubt Bubba when he said that they were waiting for the revised NOA, unless we can think of some way that this statement could involve some benefit to UNC, especially when it seems likely to be true.

Maybe, in the bizarre logic of UNC, they diffuse the situation during the tournament and they don't have to answer any questions during press conferences. NCAA could be complicit in this as well; otherwise, the next question is "you had the hearing, why can't you announce the findings and judgment? And why can you let these guys play if you are coming down with an LOIC penalty?" Instead, we can spend three days on the propriety of a coach saying something other than "good game" to an opposing player.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-28-2016, 03:26 PM
It will be interesting to see (though I'm not holding my breath) if the media starts to pick up a bit on the pending COI decision since they are down to focusing on just four teams. And they can only run the Marcus Paige/Model Student Athlete story so many times.

Although you wonder if CBS really has the guts to go there. I'd love nothing more than to see Kenny squirm in that center studio seat.

porcophile
03-28-2016, 03:28 PM
If I could post at PackPride I'd put this over there -- it's more their kind of thing -- but y'all might find it amusing. Some knowledgeable people tell me this is how things work at UNC.[ATTACH=CONFIG]6181
Bottom row (L to R): Dean, Folt, Cunningham
Top row (L to R): Stone, Caudill, Townsend

Last year Stone and Caudill traded places as chairman of the Board of Trustees and president of the Rams Club. Townsend is a Big Ram and a venture fund guy who can afford to pay some of the legal bills UNC is running up.

sammy3469
03-28-2016, 04:04 PM
But we have no particular reason to doubt Bubba when he said that they were waiting for the revised NOA, unless we can think of some way that this statement could involve some benefit to UNC, especially when it seems likely to be true.

Well, Emmert wouldn't believe that there would be a resolution sometime in the relatively near future if an amended NOA was coming since that would push the process out at least another 4-7 months.

I do wonder what he means by a "cooperative collaborate process".

SoCalDukeFan
03-28-2016, 04:26 PM
Of course the NCAA is ridiculous.

If you win games or championships with players who were not in school, then you should have to vacate those wins and championships.

PERIOD


Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4699952-north-carolina-academic-fraud-investigation-almost-done-mark-emmert-ncaa) thinks punishment will be light.



SoCal

swood1000
03-28-2016, 04:41 PM
Well, Emmert wouldn't believe that there would be a resolution sometime in the relatively near future if an amended NOA was coming since that would push the process out at least another 4-7 months.

I do wonder what he means by a "cooperative collaborate process".
Well, he didn't really say that there would be a resolution in the relatively near future. He said:


“Sometime in the relatively near future we’ll move toward a resolution,’’ Emmert told USA TODAY Sports, adding that he did not have a specific deadline. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/27/mark-emmert-investigation-north-carolina-academic-fraud-nears-end/82319080/

So that sounds like the enforcement staff is about to take some action, presumably issuing a revised NOA. And he is quick to point out that although everyone is waiting for the NCAA to take some action the delay is not the fault of the NCAA, “It took the university a long time to gather the facts on their end. They wanted that opportunity and everyone was pleased to give them that opportunity, or willing to give them that opportunity."

Then he said "And it’s actually been moving forward well and in a cooperative collaborate fashion like these things are supposed to.’’ That sounds like the enforcement staff has been asking for additional information and that UNC has been cooperating.

Roy said in February, "I wish there was some way that there could be a speedier (conclusion) but our people are trying to do the best they can do," Hall of Fame men's basketball coach Roy Williams said last week. "The NCAA's probably doing things the way they do them. And it's been very frustrating for me." http://bigstory.ap.org/article/d3fc36b0c60244b3ad21d56fa554a473/north-carolinas-ncaa-academic-case-stuck-holding-pattern By this time he was assured that the hearing could not be held prior to the tournament this year.

swood1000
03-28-2016, 05:06 PM
Of course the NCAA is ridiculous.

If you win games or championships with players who were not in school, then you should have to vacate those wins and championships.

PERIOD


Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4699952-north-carolina-academic-fraud-investigation-almost-done-mark-emmert-ncaa) thinks punishment will be light.

SoCal

Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4699952-north-carolina-academic-fraud-investigation-almost-done-mark-emmert-ncaa) said "...but most observers don't believe the men's football or basketball teams will have to vacate any wins or championships." But what could Sporting News possibly be talking about?

The original NOA in Allegation 1 charged that "...the institution provided impermissible benefits to student-athletes that were not generally available to the student body" and stated that this was a Level I violation. Don't impermissible benefits typically result in ineligibility, and don't any wins participated in by ineligible players typically result in vacating those wins? What am I missing here? Is Sporting News saying that "most observers" expect that Allegation 1 will be rejected in its entirety? Does the person who wrote this article have any clue whatsoever?

Duke79UNLV77
03-28-2016, 07:38 PM
I've never been a fan of Jalen Rose, but he didn't shy away from some mocking comments at UNC's expense for its academic fraud.

devil84
03-28-2016, 08:33 PM
Sporting News (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball-news/4699952-north-carolina-academic-fraud-investigation-almost-done-mark-emmert-ncaa) said "...but most observers don't believe the men's football or basketball teams will have to vacate any wins or championships." But what could Sporting News possibly be talking about?

If, by "most observers," the author is referring to "Tar Heel fans" or "posters on IC," then I understand the author's point. Apparently "most observers" that the author interviewed didn't include "people who have critical thinking skills" or "people who can extrapolate from what happened to other schools."

madscavenger
03-28-2016, 08:39 PM
Don't impermissible benefits typically result in ineligibility, and don't any wins participated in by ineligible players typically result in vacating those wins?

In a baby blue world where tens of millions of dollars are spent trying to bail out athletes, those responsible for their behavior, and those covering up for everybody, is it even close to reasonable that impermissible benefits (those benefitting athletes, not available to the general student population) were not present in a mountain range of deep pocket support. Lets not forget that corrupt athletic programs themselves are surely impermissible in these situations. After all, that is what an LOIC targets, the environment allowing and/or sponsoring the violations. Available to all? The UNC case is unbelievably cut and dried in the absence of undo influence by Swofford, Emmert, the top man at ESPN, and the zillionaire Rams Club (a few politicians as well, but they're out in the weeds hiding). Armament on this level unequivocally wreaks of the odor of severity in this cesspool. Punishment should be administered accordingly.

And SACS; a laughing stock of a sham, were it not so serious. If education and the welfare of its intent is its raison d'etre, their mission has been a woeful failure, victims being the supposed beneficiaries the institution was created to protect. Aside from education as a whole, the ultimate effect on black athletes is particularly gruesome. Promises made were hollow and deceitful. That stink bomb is another hot potato conveniently suppressed.

Oh yeah, and then there is the Pell grant fraud, amongst a host of other nefarious practices.

Nothing wrong here officers. Leave your envelope with the bailiff on your way out.

CatDevil
03-28-2016, 09:15 PM
Enjoyable post on Pack Pride. This guy ncstatenate11 really spent time locating social media comments. I think the post is the 7th one on page 15 if my link doesn't work.

http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina-state/forums/2515-packpride-sports/14647296-continual-cheating-scandal-coverage-usa-today-article-page-9?page=15

Nugget
03-28-2016, 09:21 PM
In a baby blue world where tens of millions of dollars are spent trying to bail out athletes, those responsible for their behavior, and those covering up for everybody, is it even close to reasonable that impermissible benefits (those benefitting athletes, not available to the general student population) were not present in a mountain range of deep pocket support. Lets not forget that corrupt athletic programs themselves are surely impermissible in these situations. After all, that is what an LOIC targets, the environment allowing and/or sponsoring the violations. Available to all? The UNC case is unbelievably cut and dried in the absence of undo influence by Swofford, Emmert, the top man at ESPN, and the zillionaire Rams Club (a few politicians as well, but they're out in the weeds hiding). Armament on this level unequivocally wreaks of the odor of severity in this cesspool. Punishment should be administered accordingly.

And SACS; a laughing stock of a sham, were it not so serious. If education and the welfare of its intent is its raison d'etre, their mission has been a woeful failure, victims being the supposed beneficiaries the institution was created to protect. Aside from education as a whole, the ultimate effect on black athletes is particularly gruesome. Promises made were hollow and deceitful. That stink bomb is another hot potato conveniently suppressed.

Oh yeah, and then there is the Pell grant fraud, amongst a host of other nefarious practices.

Nothing wrong here officers. Leave your envelope with the bailiff on your way out.

After the NCAA went out of its way to define the violation period by Syracuse in a way that allowed it to avoid having to vacate the 2003 National Championship, isn't it reasonable to think (fear) that the NCAA -- especially given Emmert's comment about the "cooperative," "collaborative" way UNC is participating in the investigation -- will somehow contort itself to define the violations in a way the allows UNC to keep the 2005 and 2009 titles (and none of the violations apply to the current time period/team, right)?

Could they do that by finding violations and impermissible benefits for some period of time but declare (i) the benefits of too little value to require deeming everyone who took the classes over 20 years retroactively ineligible and (ii) too murky as to whether the false classes actually resulted in any players on the 2005 and 2009 teams being kept eligible when they otherwise wouldn't have made sufficient academic progress?

madscavenger
03-29-2016, 03:42 AM
Wasn't there talk about Mary Willingham and Jay Smith coming out with a follow up scheduled for a Spring release? Haven't heard any mention of it lately. ???

slower
03-29-2016, 07:12 AM
After the NCAA went out of its way to define the violation period by Syracuse in a way that allowed it to avoid having to vacate the 2003 National Championship, isn't it reasonable to think (fear) that the NCAA -- especially given Emmert's comment about the "cooperative," "collaborative" way UNC is participating in the investigation -- will somehow contort itself to define the violations in a way the allows UNC to keep the 2005 and 2009 titles (and none of the violations apply to the current time period/team, right)?


Of COURSE that's what will happen.

Duke95
03-29-2016, 10:59 AM
The expectation by those who have paid close attention to this case is that the NCAA will hand out punishment to UNC before the end of this semester, allowing current players to transfer before the post-season bans take effect.

OldPhiKap
03-29-2016, 11:59 AM
The expectation by those who have paid close attention to this case is that the NCAA will hand out punishment to UNC before the end of this semester, allowing current players to transfer before the post-season bans take effect.

Exams end May 9th, if that is the target to which you refer:

http://registrar.unc.edu/academic-calendar/academic-calendars-2015-2016-and-2016-2017/

(I do not know if the rule runs from the end of classes, the end of exams, or what).

I do chuckle at it being called an "academic calendar" in regard to their athletes though.

Henderson
03-29-2016, 12:08 PM
The expectation by those who have paid close attention to this case is that the NCAA will hand out punishment to UNC before the end of this semester, allowing current players to transfer before the post-season bans take effect.

Do you have specific information about this? I've suspected since early in the season that the NCAA was giving UNC-CH a natty chance before lowering the boom. Maybe give Roy a chance to retire too. Kind of like a prisoner given a gourmet final meal before being executed.

But real information is hard to come by. Do you have any?

Duke95
03-29-2016, 12:19 PM
Do you have specific information about this? I've suspected since early in the season that the NCAA was giving UNC-CH a natty chance before lowering the boom. Maybe give Roy a chance to retire too. Kind of like a prisoner given a gourmet final meal before being executed.

But real information is hard to come by. Do you have any?

The only thing I can say is that every expectation is that the punishment will be severe and it will be doled out before the end of the semester. The delay wasn't NCAA's doing. In fact, the timing of the case is not longer than expected at all.

I expect significant staffing changes at UNC next year, with Williams among them.

This is both good and bad in some sense. Punishing UNC severely would give the NCAA more credibility in discussing academics without actually taking any responsibility for its enforcement. On the flip side, if the NCAA did not punish UNC, it would greatly augment the cases currently (and perhaps future cases) against the NCAA.

4Gen
03-29-2016, 01:13 PM
Inside Carolina has a current thread entitled "do Oklahoma players go to class."

I kid not .

jv001
03-29-2016, 01:21 PM
Inside Carolina has a current thread entitled "do Oklahoma players go to class."

I kid not .

The Cheats must be looking for more paperless classes, since the ones they have are under investigation. Got to keep up with Duke and Virginia. GoDuke!

plimnko
03-29-2016, 01:24 PM
Inside Carolina has a current thread entitled "do Oklahoma players go to class."

I kid not .

how does that quote about people throwing stones and glass houses go?

hudlow
03-29-2016, 01:31 PM
Inside Carolina has a current thread entitled "do Oklahoma players go to class."

I kid not .

Maybe some of the current players are thinking of transferring....

Henderson
03-29-2016, 01:44 PM
Inside Carolina has a current thread entitled "do Oklahoma players go to class."

I kid not .


Maybe some of the current players are thinking of transferring...

Nah, I think UNC-CH is engaged in a nationwide search for an online program that would satisfy NCAA requirements. Anything. Swahili on line at Oklahoma? Gets us past the NCAA? Good to go.

I'm kidding of course. UNC-CH has solved all the problems with renegade employees besmirching their excellent academic program for athletes.

hudlow
03-29-2016, 09:04 PM
Whistling past the graveyard.

http://www.sportscarolinamonthly.com/unc-coach-roy-williams-addresses-academic-scandal-relation-final-four-run/

slower
03-29-2016, 09:07 PM
Do you have specific information about this? I've suspected since early in the season that the NCAA was giving UNC-CH a natty chance before lowering the boom. Maybe give Roy a chance to retire too. Kind of like a prisoner given a gourmet final meal before being executed.



Although many of us won't be surprised if they get the gourmet meal and a full pardon.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-29-2016, 09:13 PM
Whistling past the graveyard.

http://www.sportscarolinamonthly.com/unc-coach-roy-williams-addresses-academic-scandal-relation-final-four-run/
Ol Roy says: "You know, it's been a tough time. At the same time, I'm very proud of the fact that we have no allegations against men's basketball..."

Just amazing.

eddiehaskell
03-30-2016, 02:27 AM
Does anyone think Roy retires if they win it all? The recruits aren't looking amazingly good this year (Williams/Maye) or the next few years, they may have a 1-2 year post season ban (plus reduced scholarships) and judging by his fainting spells/knees maybe he has a good out by focusing on health. If there's a ban and such, it may take 3-4 seasons for the Heels to fully dig themselves out of the hole. That could be 2019 or 2020. Perhaps he wouldn't want to coach that long trying to right the ship? He wouldn't be too old or anything (3 years younger than K), but he may just not want to deal with it given the opportunity to go out on top.

BigWayne
03-30-2016, 02:45 AM
Does anyone think Roy retires if they win it all? The recruits aren't looking amazingly good this year (Williams/Maye) or the next few years, they may have a 1-2 year post season ban (plus reduced scholarships) and judging by his fainting spells/knees maybe he has a good out by focusing on health. If there's a ban and such, it may take 3-4 seasons for the Heels to fully dig themselves out of the hole. That could be 2019 or 2020. Perhaps he wouldn't want to coach that long trying to right the ship? He wouldn't be too old or anything (3 years younger than K), but he may just not want to deal with it given the opportunity to go out on top.

I am thinking he will be "retiring" on or about July 1st, just like Dr. Julius did, no matter what happens this weekend.

jv001
03-30-2016, 06:24 AM
Does anyone think Roy retires if they win it all? The recruits aren't looking amazingly good this year (Williams/Maye) or the next few years, they may have a 1-2 year post season ban (plus reduced scholarships) and judging by his fainting spells/knees maybe he has a good out by focusing on health. If there's a ban and such, it may take 3-4 seasons for the Heels to fully dig themselves out of the hole. That could be 2019 or 2020. Perhaps he wouldn't want to coach that long trying to right the ship? He wouldn't be too old or anything (3 years younger than K), but he may just not want to deal with it given the opportunity to go out on top.

Played golf with a typical cheat fan the other day and he told me that Maye was going to be a very good player next season. I just didn't have the heart to burst his bubble. He also said that he thought our Jeter was a better player this season than MPIII. The poor guy is not a good judge of talent and he certainly didn't see many Duke games this season. GoDuke!

wsb3
03-30-2016, 07:10 AM
Paul Finebaum Show. Nothing new here but some good points. Been better if when he talked about how Roy claims not to know but yet he was concerned that so many players were clustered in same major that he would add wonder if Ole Roy would have had the same concerns if they were all chemistry majors.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=15093586&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=Twitter

oldnavy
03-30-2016, 07:56 AM
Paul Finebaum Show. Nothing new here but some good points. Been better if when he talked about how Roy claims not to know but yet he was concerned that so many players were clustered in same major that he would add wonder if Ole Roy would have had the same concerns if they were all chemistry majors.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=15093586&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=Twitter

Same exact thing I have been saying since he made that comment.... why would he care about clustering if everything was on the up an up?

Glad someone else with a better platform than I is bringing that up!

Duke95
03-30-2016, 08:05 AM
I don't think we will see Roy or Sylvia at UNC next year. I suspect Dorrance and Fox may be out as well.

FWIW, I expect the ban will be at least 3 years, with a possibility of 5. The NCAA would be absolutely eviscerated if it's anything less than 3.

jv001
03-30-2016, 08:59 AM
I think the person accusing the cheats of longtime academic fraud was the host of the radio show, Matt Jones not our Matt, but a Kentucky Wildcat radio host. Paul seemed to be surprised by the allegations. Doesn't surprise me because he's on ESPN-Cheat network at times. GoDuke!

Indoor66
03-30-2016, 09:00 AM
I don't think we will see Roy or Sylvia at UNC next year. I suspect Dorrance and Fox may be out as well.

FWIW, I expect the ban will be at least 3 years, with a possibility of 5. The NCAA would be absolutely eviscerated if it's anything less than 3.

My guess is 5 years, two national titles + others in Men's BB, titles in Women's BB and numerous titles in Soccer, Baseball as well as hundreds of wins gone in all sports.

moonpie23
03-30-2016, 09:02 AM
My guess is 5 years, two national titles + others in Men's BB, titles in Women's BB and numerous titles in Soccer, Baseball as well as hundreds of wins gone in all sports.

WHY!!!!!???? does their PR machine work on me, but not on you?

Indoor66
03-30-2016, 09:05 AM
WHY!!!!!???? does their PR machine work on me, but not on you?

I read the materials before the test. ;):D:rolleyes::cool:

wsb3
03-30-2016, 09:05 AM
My guess is 5 years, two national titles + others in Men's BB, titles in Women's BB and numerous titles in Soccer, Baseball as well as hundreds of wins gone in all sports.

I sure hope that you are right..

MChambers
03-30-2016, 09:11 AM
More glossing over the scandal:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/roy-williams-the-emotional-tolls-of-tobacco-road/2016/03/25/31c38792-f29e-11e5-a61f-e9c95c06edca_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

OldPhiKap
03-30-2016, 09:11 AM
My guess is 5 years, two national titles + others in Men's BB, titles in Women's BB and numerous titles in Soccer, Baseball as well as hundreds of wins gone in all sports.

This would be satisfactory. I hope you are correct, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Lar77
03-30-2016, 09:13 AM
Same exact thing I have been saying since he made that comment... why would he care about clustering if everything was on the up an up?

Glad someone else with a better platform than I is bringing that up!

With the Kentucky fan base starting to get energized about this (irony aside), it is becoming harder for NCAA and media to slough off. Since the Pack and Duke are in the same conference and are heated rivals with the cheats, it is easier to dismiss them, despite the evidence that has been produced. Big Blue Nation is large and vocal, and maybe as important to ESPN as the cheats.

Roy keeps repeating the narrative that Men's basketball is not mentioned in the allegations. Technically true, but they are plastered all over the supporting evidence.

Time for Roy to ride off into the sunset.

Duke95
03-30-2016, 09:24 AM
My guess is 5 years, two national titles + others in Men's BB, titles in Women's BB and numerous titles in Soccer, Baseball as well as hundreds of wins gone in all sports.

That is my expectation as well. If it is less, I think the NCAA is massively exposed legally.

jv001
03-30-2016, 09:28 AM
More glossing over the scandal:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/roy-williams-the-emotional-tolls-of-tobacco-road/2016/03/25/31c38792-f29e-11e5-a61f-e9c95c06edca_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

The Post bent over backward to portray Ol Roy as the victim in that article. Wonder how they would have treated Coach K if the roles were reversed? I think I know the answer to that question. I feel sorry for Roy regarding his health, but it stops there. He's certainly not the victim in this longtime scandal. I'll be so glad when the cheats get their just punishment. GoDuke!

madscavenger
03-30-2016, 09:30 AM
I don't think we will see Roy or Sylvia at UNC next year. I suspect Dorrance and Fox may be out as well. ...........


What you are saying then is that there's a package deal in the works. They all say that, but very few materialize. Hell with the coaches. They should find a way to apply the death penalty to the Rams Club.

moonpie23
03-30-2016, 09:41 AM
Roy was on Mike and Mike this morning and AGAIN, stated that men's BB had not been accused of wrongdoing. HOW can he do that? How do folks like Bilas et al continue to spin this crap? did they just not read the WR?

Duke95
03-30-2016, 09:41 AM
What you are saying then is that there's a package deal in the works. They all say that, but very few materialize. Hell with the coaches. They should find a way to apply the death penalty to the Rams Club.

Not sure what you mean by "package deal". The simple facts are that these programs have been implicated in the scandal during the tenure of their respective coaches. Each coach is closely tied to the scandal:

Williams->Walden
Hatchell->Boxill
Fox-> through Blanton
Dorrance-> directly and through Blanton

wsb3
03-30-2016, 09:52 AM
Love how he says the coaches never seem to know.:rolleyes:


http://www.pressherald.com/2016/03/30/commentary-scandals-spice-final-four-matchup-unc-syracuse/

OldPhiKap
03-30-2016, 10:10 AM
Roy was on Mike and Mike this morning and AGAIN, stated that men's BB had not been accused of wrongdoing. HOW can he do that?

Doyle Lonnegan: "Your boss is quite a card player, Mr. Kelly; how does he do it?"

Johnny Hooker: "He cheats."

-- The Sting

Merlindevildog91
03-30-2016, 10:10 AM
Roy was on Mike and Mike this morning and AGAIN, stated that men's BB had not been accused of wrongdoing. HOW can he do that? How do folks like Bilas et al continue to spin this crap? did they just not read the WR?

Reading would require effort on their part.

swood1000
03-30-2016, 10:21 AM
Roy was on Mike and Mike this morning and AGAIN, stated that men's BB had not been accused of wrongdoing. HOW can he do that? How do folks like Bilas et al continue to spin this crap? did they just not read the WR?
Roy probably justifies that by saying that no basketball coach has been personally charged. Basketball was mentioned in allegation 5 but it was ASPSA and AFRI/AFAM and administration officials and individual students who were blamed. Allegation 1 charged impermissible benefits but it was charged that this was provided by ASPSA and AFRI/AFAM, not by MBB coaches. So his implication is that he has run a clean shop and the wrongdoers, if any, were outside his program. It doesn't follow that MBB will not be slammed severely but he wants to pretend that he was not at fault and is just an innocent victim.

Could be that the revised NOA will add some allegations naming him and his coaches.

gumbomoop
03-30-2016, 10:31 AM
Love how he says the coaches never seem to know.:rolleyes:

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/03/30/commentary-scandals-spice-final-four-matchup-unc-syracuse/

Money quote, in the ubiquitous passive voice: "There were mistakes made. We said that freely."

The dog was kicked. Yes, but who kicked the dog? Who is responsible for the injury to the dog?

Roy is not responsible, takes no responsibility. He says that freely.

That's why he's irresponsible.

OldPhiKap
03-30-2016, 10:43 AM
Money quote, in the ubiquitous passive voice: "There were mistakes made. We said that freely."



By "We said that freely," I assume he meant "We denied any wrongdoing whatsoever and attacked our accusers until forced to do otherwise by the release of a mountain of evidence, at which time we hired a PR firm and continued to minimize the impact while simultaneously submitting double-speak pleas of forgiveness to SACS and the NCAA."

Sometimes you need a Sheep-to-English translator.

madscavenger
03-30-2016, 11:14 AM
Not sure what you mean by "package deal". The simple facts are that these programs have been implicated in the scandal during the tenure of their respective coaches. Each coach is closely tied to the scandal:

Williams->Walden
Hatchell->Boxill
Fox-> through Blanton
Dorrance-> directly and through Blanton

i probably know about as much as most here (except with regard to law) and suspect more than most (there are even bigger "bodies" buried that will never, ever be exhumed, given the puppeteers behind the power). i suppose i should have adorned my comments with an army of emoticons, however that is usually not my practice. There is almost always an element of truth to these things from some perspective. Glance laterally at problems and surprises emerge, oftentimes so out of mainstream perception as to be dismissed as buffoonery. Yet, what actually happens, or doesn't happen, is frequently denied credibility without examination. i do not disagree with you. Tongue in cheek metaphors can unveil relationships not necessarily easily seen. Prospective value can be found. Throwaway commentary may be on other levels, not so throwaway as thought. They also may just be divine comedy. Sorry for the rant. No personal and no harm intended, just one of my pet peeves............mad

Tom B.
03-30-2016, 11:53 AM
Money quote, in the ubiquitous passive voice: "There were mistakes made. We said that freely."

You gotta love it when Roy starts channeling Richard Nixon.

RepoMan
03-30-2016, 12:06 PM
Loved our season. Super gritty effort under the circumstances. Exceptional seasons from Grayson and Marshall.

Then, UNC made what, to me, was an unexpected run to Final Four. This is depressing, and it could get worse.

On the other hand, there could be a silver lining. The increasing press coverage regarding the scandal is nice. Bye bye Coach K shouldn't talk to other teams' players, and Grayson shouldn't trip; Hello UNC cheats!

As an added bonus, Roy Williams can't open his mouth without sounding like a Goof these days: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/03/30/roy-williams-says-post-reporter-better-step-carefully-around-my-friends/

jv001
03-30-2016, 02:38 PM
Ol Roy was on the Dan Patrick show this am and he was crying the blues over the Post article. He once again came across as the whipped puppy. He even said that if some of his good buddies run into the guy that wrote the article there might be a whipping for that guy. I wonder what his reaction would be if he was treated like Coach K or Grayson? The guy never ceases to amaze me. GoDuke!

Merlindevildog91
03-30-2016, 02:58 PM
Ol Roy was on the Dan Patrick show this am and he was crying the blues over the Post article. He once again came across as the whipped puppy. He even said that if some of his good buddies run into the guy that wrote the article there might be a whipping for that guy. I wonder what his reaction would be if he was treated like Coach K or Grayson? The guy never ceases to amaze me. GoDuke!

I hope Ol Roy doesn't have a BB gun in his hand at the time....

devildeac
03-30-2016, 03:04 PM
I hope Ol Roy doesn't have a BB gun in his hand at the time...

But just think what he could do with his pinkie...

Atlanta Duke
03-30-2016, 03:38 PM
Roy was on Mike and Mike this morning and AGAIN, stated that men's BB had not been accused of wrongdoing. HOW can he do that? How do folks like Bilas et al continue to spin this crap? did they just not read the WR?

Certainly a mystery to some folks - this from what I am guessing is just a sample of what is to come from The New York Times over the next few days

In an Unfortunate Final Four Matchup, No Lessons Learned

But the fact is, basketball players were among the first North Carolina players to take the phantom classes. That’s the truth, even if Williams seems to want to keep tweaking it.

“To say they’re not involved, I just don’t know how you get there,” said Dan Kane, the Raleigh News & Observer reporter who helped break the academic scandal story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/sports/ncaabasketball/in-an-unfortunate-final-four-matchup-no-lessons-learned.html?ref=sports

plimnko
03-30-2016, 04:44 PM
Certainly a mystery to some folks - this from what I am guessing is just a sample of what is to come from The New York Times over the next few days

In an Unfortunate Final Four Matchup, No Lessons Learned

But the fact is, basketball players were among the first North Carolina players to take the phantom classes. That’s the truth, even if Williams seems to want to keep tweaking it.

“To say they’re not involved, I just don’t know how you get there,” said Dan Kane, the Raleigh News & Observer reporter who helped break the academic scandal story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/sports/ncaabasketball/in-an-unfortunate-final-four-matchup-no-lessons-learned.html?ref=sports



DENY DENY DENY......sooner or later you'll start believing your own line of crap

hudlow
03-30-2016, 04:50 PM
DENY DENY DENY...sooner or later you'll start believing your own line of crap

Maybe Ol' Huck is gonna run for office.

plimnko
03-30-2016, 05:01 PM
Maybe Ol' Huck is gonna run for office.

"Captain Oblivious"

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-30-2016, 05:05 PM
I love it. Every time Ol Roy opens his mouth, he's just inviting the media to write the next piece on the cheaters. Wait to til someone confronts him with the sentence in the NOA that clearly states men's basketball is one of the primary targets. His head might explode like one of Sam Jackson's pawns in the Kingsman flick. What a maroon.

plimnko
03-30-2016, 05:08 PM
I love it. Every time Ol Roy opens his mouth, he's just inviting the media to write the next piece on the cheaters. Wait to til someone confronts him with the sentence in the NOA that clearly states men's basketball is one of the primary targets. His head might explode like one of Sam Jackson's pawns in the Kingsman flick. What a maroon.

don't sit too close to the tv. could get messy.

RepoMan
03-31-2016, 08:38 AM
Nice to see this on the front page of ESPN: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/15100276/syracuse-jim-boeheim-north-carolina-roy-williams-cannot-escape-cloud-hovers-them

dukebluesincebirth
03-31-2016, 08:51 AM
Nice to see this on the front page of ESPN: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/15100276/syracuse-jim-boeheim-north-carolina-roy-williams-cannot-escape-cloud-hovers-them

I'm glad to see the scandal getting front page coverage and exposure also, but the article seems to be making the point that Cuse/Unc in the final 4 just represents what college basketball is today....which continues to support the script of "everyone does it, it's just the way college basketball is today." That's not necessarily the case at every college, and it's still sugar-coating unc.

Olympic Fan
03-31-2016, 12:08 PM
The front page link today to the article in the Vegas paper looking back at Duke's 1991 win over UNLV in the Final Four contained one factoid that I had forgotten.

UNLV was found guilty of an NCAA violation in the fall of 1991 (for the recruitment of Lloyd Daniels) and was put on one-year postseason probation.

But ...

The NCAA cut a deal that delayed the probation until the 1992-93 season, so that Tarkanian's great 1991-92 team could compete for a second straight national title.

Very similar to what UNC has done this year -- with the cooperation of the NCAA (Mark Emmerit just said that NCAA was fine with UNC's delaying tactics) -- UNC has delayed a ruling on its violations.

It is funny how all this keeps repeating.

In 1972, UNC faced Florida State in the Final Four and a young coach made headlines by complaining that such a crooked program as Hugh Durham's Seminoles should be allowed to compete for the national title. That coach was Jerry Tarkanian, just starting his career at Long Beach State.

Twenty years later, Tarkanian's crooked UNLV program delays probation long enough to compete in the 1991 Final Four.

Now, 25 years after that, UNC's crooked program delays its in NCAA punishment long enough to compete for the 2016 national title.

I've always believed that what didn't happen to FSU in 1972 convinced Tarkanian that it wasn't worth following the rules -- you could cheat and still prosper (note: the crooked Durham was just elected to the Hall of Fame). From that point out, he cheated his butt off. I wonder if Dean took the same lesson in 1991. That's when his program began to be surpassed by Duke and he saw an outrageously crooked UNLV team celebrated all that season. I know there was some strange stuff going on before than, but the AFAM scam first got going in 1993.

Coincidence?

OldPhiKap
03-31-2016, 12:10 PM
The front page link today to the article in the Vegas paper looking back at Duke's 1991 win over UNLV in the Final Four contained one factoid that I had forgotten.

UNLV was found guilty of an NCAA violation in the fall of 1991 (for the recruitment of Lloyd Daniels) and was put on one-year postseason probation.

But ...

The NCAA cut a deal that delayed the probation until the 1992-93 season, so that Tarkanian's great 1991-92 team could compete for a second straight national title.

Very similar to what UNC has done this year -- with the cooperation of the NCAA (Mark Emmerit just said that NCAA was fine with UNC's delaying tactics) -- UNC has delayed a ruling on its violations.

It is funny how all this keeps repeating.

In 1972, UNC faced Florida State in the Final Four and a young coach made headlines by complaining that such a crooked program as Hugh Durham's Seminoles should be allowed to compete for the national title. That coach was Jerry Tarkanian, just starting his career at Long Beach State.

Twenty years later, Tarkanian's crooked UNLV program delays probation long enough to compete in the 1991 Final Four.

Now, 25 years after that, UNC's crooked program delays its in NCAA punishment long enough to compete for the 2016 national title.

I've always believed that what didn't happen to FSU in 1972 convinced Tarkanian that it wasn't worth following the rules -- you could cheat and still prosper (note: the crooked Durham was just elected to the Hall of Fame). From that point out, he cheated his butt off. I wonder if Dean took the same lesson in 1991. That's when his program began to be surpassed by Duke and he saw an outrageously crooked UNLV team celebrated all that season. I know there was some strange stuff going on before than, but the AFAM scam first got going in 1993.

Coincidence?

UNcLV.

Duke95
03-31-2016, 12:43 PM
UNcLV.

Win.

You must spread some Comments around before commenting on OldPhiKap again.

tux
03-31-2016, 01:22 PM
I'm glad to see the scandal getting front page coverage and exposure also, but the article seems to be making the point that Cuse/Unc in the final 4 just represents what college basketball is today...which continues to support the script of "everyone does it, it's just the way college basketball is today." That's not necessarily the case at every college, and it's still sugar-coating unc.


And don't bother diving into the comments section. Whew! It didn't take long for Lance Thomas to be brought up as an apples-to-apples comparison. I know the comments section of an ESPN article is not a fair cross-section of UNC or Syracuse fans, but the rationalizing reaches almost an art form there.

It's hard for me to believe that the revised NOA (or the decision to *not* revise) wasn't done quite a while ago. My guess is that the NCAA is doing UNC a small favor (or in exchange for some concession) by holding that until after this season (or academic semester). If so, that probably points to an NOA that does a little more work in actually naming the basketball and football programs more explicitly. I.e., UNC wanted to avoid the distraction of having to publish the revised NOA mid-season.

OldPhiKap
03-31-2016, 01:30 PM
It's hard for me to believe that the revised NOA (or the decision to *not* revise) wasn't done quite a while ago. My guess is that the NCAA is doing UNC a small favor (or in exchange for some concession) by holding that until after this season (or academic semester). If so, that probably points to an NOA that does a little more work in actually naming the basketball and football programs more explicitly. I.e., UNC wanted to avoid the distraction of having to publish the revised NOA mid-season.

This makes more sense to me than anything else, for what little that is worth.

slower
03-31-2016, 01:39 PM
My guess is that the NCAA is doing UNC a small favor (or in exchange for some concession) by holding that until after this season (or academic semester).

I think I'd characterize paving the way for a title shot as more than "a small favor."

Duke95
03-31-2016, 02:34 PM
It's hard for me to believe that the revised NOA (or the decision to *not* revise) wasn't done quite a while ago. My guess is that the NCAA is doing UNC a small favor (or in exchange for some concession) by holding that until after this season (or academic semester). If so, that probably points to an NOA that does a little more work in actually naming the basketball and football programs more explicitly. I.e., UNC wanted to avoid the distraction of having to publish the revised NOA mid-season.

That cannot be the case unless UNC has admitted to far more than what was released in August, namely something directly involving MBB or FB. The revision would have to occur pursuant to additional specific information or findings. UNC only referenced men's soccer (a laughable finding) and some additional info regarding Boxill and WBB. I think we can all see the reason for their "additional findings".

If there is a revised NOA, we would expect to see at least one additional Level 2 or Level 1 violation. But, I do not believe a revised NOA exists at this point, and that the next event to occur will be the NCAA's punishment of UNC.

OldPhiKap
03-31-2016, 02:55 PM
That cannot be the case unless UNC has admitted to far more than what was released in August, namely something directly involving MBB or FB. The revision would have to occur pursuant to additional specific information or findings. UNC only referenced men's soccer (a laughable finding) and some additional info regarding Boxill and WBB. I think we can all see the reason for their "additional findings".

If there is a revised NOA, we would expect to see at least one additional Level 2 or Level 1 violation. But, I do not believe a revised NOA exists at this point, and that the next event to occur will be the NCAA's punishment of UNC.

Couldn't they just get there under the LOIC allegation, which specifically relates to MBB and FB among others?

swood1000
03-31-2016, 03:31 PM
That cannot be the case unless UNC has admitted to far more than what was released in August, namely something directly involving MBB or FB. The revision would have to occur pursuant to additional specific information or findings. UNC only referenced men's soccer (a laughable finding) and some additional info regarding Boxill and WBB. I think we can all see the reason for their "additional findings".
It's also possible that all the publicity given to the released material has brought to the attention of the enforcement staff some things that they were not aware of the first time through, or pointed out some connections that they had not seen before. The only explanation I can think of for this delay is that they have gone back through taking a second look at everything. Maybe their decision not to name members of Roy's staff, such as Wayne Walden, were borderline before and after having been given the additional time to investigate they have decided to go ahead with those charges.

Some think that the enforcement staff has been negotiating all this time with UNC but that can't be the case. The original NOA was issued May 20, 2015 and presumably negotiations have been going since well before then. On August 15, 2015 UNC submitted additional information and it has been over seven months since then. Can anyone imagine what could be the content of negotiations lasting this long, or how the enforcement staff could find such negotiations productive?


If there is a revised NOA, we would expect to see at least one additional Level 2 or Level 1 violation. But, I do not believe a revised NOA exists at this point, and that the next event to occur will be the NCAA's punishment of UNC.
So you think they have already held the hearing? Bubba Cunningham's statement that they are waiting for the revised NOA was a clever ruse to keep people from knowing that there was really no delay and that they had gone ahead with all mandatory meetings and hearings, all cloaked in the strictest secrecy, and somehow keeping within the FOIA requirements?

tux
03-31-2016, 03:53 PM
It's also possible that all the publicity given to the released material has brought to the attention of the enforcement staff some things that they were not aware of the first time through, or pointed out some connections that they had not seen before. The only explanation I can think of for this delay is that they have gone back through taking a second look at everything. Maybe their decision not to name members of Roy's staff, such as Wayne Walden, were borderline before and after having been given the additional time to investigate they have decided to go ahead with those charges.

Some think that the enforcement staff has been negotiating all this time with UNC but that can't be the case. The original NOA was issued May 20, 2015 and presumably negotiations have been going since well before then. On August 15, 2015 UNC submitted additional information and it has been over seven months since then. Can anyone imagine what could be the content of negotiations lasting this long, or how the enforcement staff could find such negotiations productive?


So you think they have already held the hearing? Bubba Cunningham's statement that they are waiting for the revised NOA was a clever ruse to keep people from knowing that there was really no delay and that they had gone ahead with all mandatory meetings and hearings, all cloaked in the strictest secrecy, and somehow keeping within the FOIA requirements?


Is it possible that the NCAA came back and decided not to alter the original NOA? In that case, UNC may not have to disclose anything, as they have already made the original NOA public. I.e., there may not be anything tangible to request/provide under FOIA requirements. So, the public thinks UNC is waiting on something, when in fact the process is already underway.

What was the timeline for an NCAA decision on the NOA? And what then would be the timeline for the hearing?

Thanks.

porcophile
03-31-2016, 04:01 PM
Has anyone posted a link to this story (http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/sweet-16-likability-rankings-oklahoma-duke-north-carolina-kansas-notre-dame-wisconsin-032316) about how unlikeable UNC and Syracuse are? If Oklahoma gets to the finals, it'll be a fine good-versus-evil match-up there with anything pro wrestling has to offer.
Just think how much worse UNC's reputation would be if the administration hadn't spent all that money on PR.

swood1000
03-31-2016, 04:31 PM
Is it possible that the NCAA came back and decided not to alter the original NOA? In that case, UNC may not have to disclose anything, as they have already made the original NOA public. I.e., there may not be anything tangible to request/provide under FOIA requirements. So, the public thinks UNC is waiting on something, when in fact the process is already underway.

What was the timeline for an NCAA decision on the NOA? And what then would be the timeline for the hearing?

Thanks.
Let's look at the expedited timeline. Suppose UNC submitted the additional information in mid-October and the enforcement staff took two weeks to consider it and decided to ignore these additional small-change items. We are at November 1 and they demand the response from UNC to the original NOA. Now there are 60 days for both the enforcement staff to respond and to hold the prehearing conference. Now we are at January 1. If the COI panel gives themselves three weeks to read everything then we are looking at a hearing date of January 21, 2016. But if the same amount of time elapses as elapsed in the Syracuse case, the decision would not be released until June or later.

But would there be any precedent or rationale for maintaining secrecy about all of this? How likely is it that there would have been no leaks from anyone within UNC?

bedeviled
03-31-2016, 05:01 PM
From the Twittersphere:
Mark Armstrong ‏@ArmstrongABC11 1h1 hour ago
Emmert on UNC: 'Univ has been very cooperative -- new NOA in the very near future but no schedule.'

Atlanta Duke
03-31-2016, 05:20 PM
To celebrate Final Four weekend Dan Kane has a new article up on the N&O website

UNC-Chapel Hill, which is under investigation for fraudulent classes involving athletes, has maintained that students were not subjected to a limit on independent studies until the 2006-07 academic year...

But a new document released by university in March shows that the limit on independent studies started before 2003. Other evidence suggests that the limit was in place since the early 1990s...

The start date of that 12-credit-hour limit is critical because the NCAA considers that athletes who exceeded it received an impermissible benefit.

Going back further than 2006 would add well more than 100 athletes to the list of 10 that the NCAA said exceeded the independent study limit

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article69262627.html#storylink=cpy

Duke95
03-31-2016, 05:24 PM
From the Twittersphere:
Mark Armstrong ‏@ArmstrongABC11 1h1 hour ago
Emmert on UNC: 'Univ has been very cooperative -- new NOA in the very near future but no schedule.'

Well, well. Will be interesting to see what else it includes. A sixth level 1?

Son of Mojo
03-31-2016, 05:48 PM
UNcLV.

Been calling them this for months to hole fans I know. Surprisingly/not surprisingly, they didn't get it. :p

OldPhiKap
03-31-2016, 05:53 PM
From the Twittersphere:
Mark Armstrong ‏@ArmstrongABC11 1h1 hour ago
Emmert on UNC: 'Univ has been very cooperative -- new NOA in the very near future but no schedule.'

Oh good. They can probably play football all season next year too, and recruit BB without limitations. Yay, justice!

Indoor66
03-31-2016, 06:25 PM
Be patient. There may well be severe additions to the charges. Read Dane Kane in the N&O. Much to learn.

WiJoe
03-31-2016, 06:40 PM
The front page link today to the article in the Vegas paper looking back at Duke's 1991 win over UNLV in the Final Four contained one factoid that I had forgotten.

UNLV was found guilty of an NCAA violation in the fall of 1991 (for the recruitment of Lloyd Daniels) and was put on one-year postseason probation.

But ...

The NCAA cut a deal that delayed the probation until the 1992-93 season, so that Tarkanian's great 1991-92 team could compete for a second straight national title.

Very similar to what UNC has done this year -- with the cooperation of the NCAA (Mark Emmerit just said that NCAA was fine with UNC's delaying tactics) -- UNC has delayed a ruling on its violations.

It is funny how all this keeps repeating.

In 1972, UNC faced Florida State in the Final Four and a young coach made headlines by complaining that such a crooked program as Hugh Durham's Seminoles should be allowed to compete for the national title. That coach was Jerry Tarkanian, just starting his career at Long Beach State.

Twenty years later, Tarkanian's crooked UNLV program delays probation long enough to compete in the 1991 Final Four.

Now, 25 years after that, UNC's crooked program delays its in NCAA punishment long enough to compete for the 2016 national title.

I've always believed that what didn't happen to FSU in 1972 convinced Tarkanian that it wasn't worth following the rules -- you could cheat and still prosper (note: the crooked Durham was just elected to the Hall of Fame). From that point out, he cheated his butt off. I wonder if Dean took the same lesson in 1991. That's when his program began to be surpassed by Duke and he saw an outrageously crooked UNLV team celebrated all that season. I know there was some strange stuff going on before than, but the AFAM scam first got going in 1993.

Coincidence?

Tremendous post, Olympic Fan. However, VERY skeptical about what ncaa has in mind for unCheat. I'll believe it when I see it.

bedeviled
03-31-2016, 08:34 PM
Andrew Carter ‏@_andrewcarter 3h3 hours ago

Here's what NCAA President Mark Emmert said when asked about the UNC investigation: "Obviously a very complex circumstance. I'm not going to comment on the nature of the case itself. It's been moving along very well. The university has been very cooperative and will be in a place where they can issue, my staff can issue allegations or a notice of allegations in the very near future, but other than that it's premature to say specifically when that will occur but they're certainly getting to the end of the road."

Combined with Emmert's other recent comment

“It has obviously been a long, drawn-out process,’’ Emmert told USA Today. “It took the university a long time to gather the facts on their end. They wanted that opportunity and everyone was pleased to give them that opportunity, or willing to give them that opportunity. And it’s actually been moving forward well and in a cooperative collaborate fashion like these things are supposed to.’’I'm wondering if the delay is due to the NCAA letting UNC process the original NOA to determine which specific athletes UNC considers to be implicated in violations - thus changing the inclusive allegations to a more-defined UNC-compiled list of athletes for the new NOA. If so, I expect UNC to disregard all non-specific evidence (eg ASPSA presentation to the whole football team, interviews with counselors stating how the system operated, etc) and sham class rosters by claiming, "because there is no documentation mentioning athlete X specifically, you can't prove that X took the AFAM class due to ASPSA involvement/help. The only athletes in question are those specifically named in emails."

cspan37421
03-31-2016, 08:57 PM
According to the Dan Kane article, "Relying on the 2006 change, UNC tells the NCAA and the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges [in 2015] that the independent study limit did not apply until the 2006-07 academic year."

Sounds to me like they misrepresented this fact to SACS.

If I'm SACS, I don't like being lied to ... and this absolutely sets me off. Then again, I'm not SACS.

UNC seems to have Emmert wrapped around its finger, based on the tone he's taken.

Nugget
03-31-2016, 09:49 PM
To celebrate Final Four weekend Dan Kane has a new article up on the N&O website

UNC-Chapel Hill, which is under investigation for fraudulent classes involving athletes, has maintained that students were not subjected to a limit on independent studies until the 2006-07 academic year...

But a new document released by university in March shows that the limit on independent studies started before 2003. Other evidence suggests that the limit was in place since the early 1990s...

The start date of that 12-credit-hour limit is critical because the NCAA considers that athletes who exceeded it received an impermissible benefit.

Going back further than 2006 would add well more than 100 athletes to the list of 10 that the NCAA said exceeded the independent study limit

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article69262627.html#storylink=cpy


There really should be no ambiguity here. The report, linked to in Kane's article, states on p. 41 that part of the assessment of making curriculum changes would require "considering whether to reaffirm the current rule that an Arts and Sciences student can count toward graduation only 12 hours of independent study.”

It certainly seems like UNC has lied to both the NCAA and the SACS in claiming that the limits on independent study hours were only imposed starting in 2006.

Kane's piece is very thorough in detailing exactly the extent to which this fact (supported by the newly discovered evidence) could impact the NCAA violations -- in particular eviscerating any possible straight-faced justification not to find player(s) from the 2005 championship team were ineligible.

Which makes Emmert's comments over the last couple of days all the more troubling.

Given the Javert-esque way the NCAA pursued USC over every possible morsel of evidence in the Reggie Bush case -- even going to the level of essentially manufacturing it, as detailed in the recent California Court of Appeals decision in the defamation case brought by Todd McNair -- the possibility of a "double-standard" in play here, under which the NCAA would ignore highly credible evidence in UNC's own documents is particularly galling.

BigWayne
04-01-2016, 01:27 AM
According to the Dan Kane article, "Relying on the 2006 change, UNC tells the NCAA and the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges [in 2015] that the independent study limit did not apply until the 2006-07 academic year."

Sounds to me like they misrepresented this fact to SACS.

If I'm SACS, I don't like being lied to ... and this absolutely sets me off. Then again, I'm not SACS.

UNC seems to have Emmert wrapped around its finger, based on the tone he's taken.

Emmert has a substantial history of being in and around scandals at the universities he has been employed by. It's not surprising he seems sympathetic to UNC. SACS is a whole different story. I don't think they are going to be so publicly accommodating. The only problem is that SACS whole scheme of things is based on current and future practices. They don't really have a scheme to punish past wrongdoings other than to make UNC keep coming back to try to prove they have cleaned up things.

moonpie23
04-01-2016, 07:02 AM
I'm not one to use the "i told you so", but i'm going to break that rule when they get a slap on the wrist....

arnie
04-01-2016, 07:13 AM
I'm not one to use the "i told you so", but i'm going to break that rule when they get a slap on the wrist...

I will make similar statement (one time) and it will be very troubling when I have to make it. My interest in college sports will dwindle.

Indoor66
04-01-2016, 07:17 AM
There really should be no ambiguity here. The report, linked to in Kane's article, states on p. 41 that part of the assessment of making curriculum changes would require "considering whether to reaffirm the current rule that an Arts and Sciences student can count toward graduation only 12 hours of independent study.”

It certainly seems like UNC has lied to both the NCAA and the SACS in claiming that the limits on independent study hours were only imposed starting in 2006.

Kane's piece is very thorough in detailing exactly the extent to which this fact (supported by the newly discovered evidence) could impact the NCAA violations -- in particular eviscerating any possible straight-faced justification not to find player(s) from the 2005 championship team were ineligible.

Which makes Emmert's comments over the last couple of days all the more troubling.

Given the Javert-esque way the NCAA pursued USC over every possible morsel of evidence in the Reggie Bush case -- even going to the level of essentially manufacturing it, as detailed in the recent California Court of Appeals decision in the defamation case brought by Todd McNair -- the possibility of a "double-standard" in play here, under which the NCAA would ignore highly credible evidence in UNC's own documents is particularly galling.

I find Emmerts comments to be appropriate for an organization dotting I's and crossing T's. "We allowed them time to respond; we cooperated with them." Now when they hammer them there are few process issues to complain about. The Hook is well Set. :cool:

jv001
04-01-2016, 08:16 AM
I will make similar statement (one time) and it will be very troubling when I have to make it. My interest in college sports will dwindle.

I've said the same thing to my Duke buddies and some uncheat fans. If the Cheats get a slap on the wrist, I will not take any NCAA sports seriously from that day forward. GoDuke!

sammy3469
04-01-2016, 08:27 AM
There really should be no ambiguity here. The report, linked to in Kane's article, states on p. 41 that part of the assessment of making curriculum changes would require "considering whether to reaffirm the current rule that an Arts and Sciences student can count toward graduation only 12 hours of independent study.”

It certainly seems like UNC has lied to both the NCAA and the SACS in claiming that the limits on independent study hours were only imposed starting in 2006.

Kane's piece is very thorough in detailing exactly the extent to which this fact (supported by the newly discovered evidence) could impact the NCAA violations -- in particular eviscerating any possible straight-faced justification not to find player(s) from the 2005 championship team were ineligible.

Which makes Emmert's comments over the last couple of days all the more troubling.

Given the Javert-esque way the NCAA pursued USC over every possible morsel of evidence in the Reggie Bush case -- even going to the level of essentially manufacturing it, as detailed in the recent California Court of Appeals decision in the defamation case brought by Todd McNair -- the possibility of a "double-standard" in play here, under which the NCAA would ignore highly credible evidence in UNC's own documents is particularly galling.

I just have to say, I find UNC's total ignorance on this issue just baffling. Even in the 90's Duke had hard and fast rules on the whole Independent Study process. It's just preposterous that UNC is "misremembering" the entire time period.

At this point, I doubt the NCAA really cares. I mean it shouldn't take 8-9 months to "reinvestigate" new seemingly simpler allegations in the self-report (to put this in some perspective the original NOA came the same 8 months after the original Wainstein report which presumably should have been more complicated). The only reason it does is the NCAA wants to sit on it until after the tourney is over. Just pathetic, but then again, I don't have much faith in the NCAA anyway these days.

Maybe SACS will care, but I doubt it.

davekay1971
04-01-2016, 08:56 AM
The Dan Kane article on the front page may, if the NCAA has any interest in credibility, be the ultimate piece of evidence to kill the 2005 Championship.

The document he cited makes no bones about the fact that a 12 hour limit was in play prior to 2003. There simply isn't room to debate that. It's simple math from there to count up the number of ineligible players (over 100 additional players). And a big chunk of those players were on the 2004-2005 team.

For anyone following this, and following UNC's behavior, their contention that the 12 hour limit was imposed in 2006 is timed for obvious reasons. Their interest, all along, has been to protect the 2005 and 2009 championships. Since Roy had already moved his players away from AFAM before the start of the 2008-2009 season, they probably considered that title secure. The 2005 title, however, was obviously won by a team that was waist deep in fraudulent AFAM courses. That title has always been at risk in this investigation.

I have no faith in the NCAA, but this is a clinching piece of evidence against the validity of the 2005 title. The NCAA may ignore it.

But if the NCAA doesn't ignore it, what sweet irony it will be that UNC's own delay tactics will have given time for the evidence that kills the 2005 championship to be found.

RepoMan
04-01-2016, 09:00 AM
From the article: "That [players who exceeded the limit] presumably would include Rashad McCants, whose transcript shows he took nothing but fake classes in the semester during the championship run."

I mean, at first, I simply buzzed by this and read on. Ho hum. More fake classes. It is almost like we have become immune.

But when you step back and consider the statement, which is supported by fact, how is there any way that they do not get hammered? Worse, how is possible that they have not proactively taken steps to address this on their own? Not to minimize penalties, but out of embarrassment that an academic institution would have let this happen.

I mean, I dislike UNC as much as the next guy, but I am truly surprised at how they have handled this mess.

Tom B.
04-01-2016, 09:46 AM
I find Emmerts comments to be appropriate for an organization dotting I's and crossing T's. "We allowed them time to respond; we cooperated with them." Now when they hammer them there are few process issues to complain about. The Hook is well Set. :cool:

Yeah, I think Emmert's just keeping his cards close to the vest. Really, there's not much he could say now, at least not until a revised NOA comes out. If the NCAA really is getting ready to hammer UNC, he's not going to telegraph it. He's just going to recite the same nothingspeak over and over, "Things are moving forward cooperatively," blah blah blah, because he doesn't want to give anyone a reason to claim that the NCAA is biased or has prejudged the case, or isn't giving UNC every opportunity to come clean.

And remember, at the end of the day, it's not "the NCAA" that has the final word on sanctions. It's the Committee on Infractions, which is (per the NCAA's website) "an independent administrative body...comprised of individuals serving as volunteers from NCAA member institutions and conferences and individuals from the general public who have legal training" -- not NCAA employees.

bedeviled
04-01-2016, 10:08 AM
And remember, at the end of the day, it's not "the NCAA" that has the final word on sanctions. It's the Committee on InfractionsBut, the COI is limited by the allegations made by the NCAA, no? That's why I find the delay in a new NOA interesting. We have no idea what it's going to look like.

The original NOA was put on hold due to UNC's reporting two new violations in the middle of August...over 7 months ago. Recall that the original NOA was issued in May after the Weinstein report came out in October...7 months. How is the new NOA taking more time than the original, which presumably covered a much more vast set of allegations? And, regarding Emmert's comments, how much university cooperation and gathering of facts is necessary for the additional two infractions uncovered by UNC? It seems to me like a set of extensively revised allegations will be presented, rather than just tacking on the new infractions to the previous list of allegations.

dukebluesincebirth
04-01-2016, 10:12 AM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/15107223/mark-emmert-says-north-carolina-tar-heels-allegations-come-ncaa-next-month

"The next step is the delivery of allegations,'' Emmert said.
"It's a great, big, complicated case, and it's taking a long time to get all the information in place,'' Emmert said. "We're not putting a timetable on it.''

"Coaches need to be responsible for what goes on in their program, whether they have knowledge or not. They need to have accountability," Emmert said. "The best penalty is to remove them from games. The committee on infractions will continue to use those penalties when they deem it important.''

These sound encouraging to me:)... we shall see.

OldPhiKap
04-01-2016, 10:14 AM
But, the COI is limited by the allegations made by the NCAA, no? That's why I find the delay in a new NOA interesting. We have no idea what it's going to look like.

The original NOA was put on hold due to UNC's reporting two new violations in the middle of August...over 7 months ago. Recall that the original NOA was issued in May after the Weinstein report came out in October...7 months. How is the new NOA taking more time than the original, which presumably covered a much more vast set of allegations? And, regarding Emmert's comments, how much university cooperation and gathering of facts is necessary for the additional two infractions uncovered by UNC? It seems to me like a set of extensively revised allegations will be presented, rather than just tacking on the new infractions to the previous list of allegations.

They may be waiting to announce the new NOI until after the tournament so it is not the center of the story (even though some are talking about it, this would be the lead of the whole tournament if announced three or six weeks ago). Just guessing. But I would imagine that UNC knows what it is likely to look like if they are working so cooperatively.

Tom B.
04-01-2016, 10:19 AM
But, the COI is limited by the allegations made by the NCAA, no?

Correct. And I think there may be some merit to the speculation that: (a) we're going to see some degree of revisions to the allegations (not sure how much), and not just one or two new allegations tacked on for the "new" violations that Carolina self-reported back in the fall; and (b) the NCAA probably knows what the revised NOA is going to look like, and may have known for a while now, but is waiting until after the Tournament to release it so the NOA isn't The Story during the Final Four.

Of course, if the NCAA really wanted to deliver a nice little "f--- you" to Carolina, they could release the revised NOA, like, today.

swood1000
04-01-2016, 10:25 AM
And remember, at the end of the day, it's not "the NCAA" that has the final word on sanctions. It's the Committee on Infractions, which is (per the NCAA's website) "an independent administrative body...comprised of individuals serving as volunteers from NCAA member institutions and conferences and individuals from the general public who have legal training" -- not NCAA employees.
Actually, the Infractions Appeals Committee has the final word.


19.10.7 Final Decision not Subject to Further Review. Any decision of the Infractions Appeals Committee shall be final, binding and conclusive, and shall not be subject to further review by any governance body.



Infractions Appeals Committee reviews the institution's (and/or involved individual's) appeal and the Committee on Infractions' response. The review is completed either through an appeal oral argument or on the written record. Appeal oral arguments include representatives on behalf of the institution, involved individual(s), the Committee on Infractions and enforcement staff. Figure 19.3, Division I Manual.

bedeviled
04-01-2016, 10:25 AM
They may be waiting to announce the new NOI until after the tournamentYeah, I suppose you're right. This whole thing is a hot mess on both sides, each battling the other and engaging in public PR wars at the same time.

JasonEvans
04-01-2016, 11:14 AM
My head is ready to explode at Roy (and many in the media who are not paying attention) constantly saying, "Men's basketball was not mentioned in the notice of allegations."

HE
IS
LYING!!!

It is my fervent wish that some reporter would simply do the following the next time Roy says that lie:


Coach Williams, I am handing you a copy of the NCAA's NOA (http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/NCAA-NOA.pdf). Could you read the highlighted text that is contained in allegation #5, an allegation that the NCAA refers to as a Level 1 allegation, the most serious type of infraction a school can commit?

"The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for
18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through
special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk
student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and
women's basketball."

Coach Williams, how can you read that paragraph and say that Men's Basketball is not specifically named in the NOA? How can you imply that the very purpose of this academic fraud scheme was to ensure the eligibility of men's basketball players?

-Jason "if there is justice in this world, someone will force Roy to face his lies and deception!" Evans

slower
04-01-2016, 11:25 AM
My head is ready to explode at Roy (and many in the media who are not paying attention) constantly saying, "Men's basketball was not mentioned in the notice of allegations."

HE
IS
LYING!!!

It is my fervent wish that some reporter would simply do the following the next time Roy says that lie:



-Jason "if there is justice in this world, someone will force Roy to face his lies and deception!" Evans

But there's NOT justice in this world. UNC will get off to the highest possible degree that the NCAA will allow. They are, to coin a phrase,"too big to fail."

gumbomoop
04-01-2016, 11:26 AM
Jason -- friendly amendment to the hypothetical reporter's question to Roy: change "imply" to "deny." Yes?

aimo
04-01-2016, 11:43 AM
I can't decide . . . is the value of my AUTOGRAPHED "I Agree With Roy" t-shirt going up or down?

MarkD83
04-01-2016, 11:47 AM
I will make similar statement (one time) and it will be very troubling when I have to make it. My interest in college sports will dwindle.

I concur with the general sentiment of this statement but I never see folks describe how they would express their dwindled interest.

So here is how my attitudes have already changed. The first change is that I now consider all NCAA sports as professional sports. In the past I thought that not paying the players was OK because they received an education etc. Now I am fully in the camp that the players should be paid and paid their fair market value. If the ACC is going to take in $30M for this year's NCAA than at least 10% of that should be evenly divided over 15 ACC teams with ~12 players on each team, so each player should get a $15,000 check from the ACC. (I am not holding my breath.)

The second change I have already made is that I don't really care about the Duke/UNC rivalry anymore. This is unfortunately my loss. I do watch the games but a Duke loss does not sting as much. I am still elated with a Duke win but no more or less than any other ACC win on the schedule.

Finally, I used to enjoy sitting down and watching "Big Monday" etc during basketball season and would not care who is playing. Now I only tune into Duke games (which I won't give up) and the mid-major games where there are a lot (if not all) 4-year players and the players have very little chance of going pro. Yes the quality of the games are not as good, but they are still very entertaining to watch. During NCAA tournament time I watched the first weekend with lots of mid-majors, the Duke Sweet 16 game and that is about it. I did not watch the other games or will I watch this weekend. That is not because Duke has been eliminated but more so because of my change in attitude. In fact I am more interest in watching the last few Golden State games to see if they get to 73 wins then I am in watching the Final 4.

OldPhiKap
04-01-2016, 11:52 AM
"Coach Williams, the NCAA specifically alleges that there was an eighteen-year pattern of improper conduct at North Carolina to benefit the men's basketball team and other athletes. How can you keep saying that your team is not mentioned in the notice of allegations, when it is in fact expressly mentioned in allegation number 5? I have a copy right here if you would like to see it."

Seriously, how hard is it to ask that question?

PackMan97
04-01-2016, 12:11 PM
I'll try and post most of a response I had to the N&O article before comments were deleted and disabled (mostly due to abusive Tarheel trolls).

Back in the mid '80s NC State made news for our laughable graduation rate and players who were not what anyone would consider college material. We recruited the same athletes that UNC recruited and we landed our fair share of them. However, what we did then was push them through our easiest courses. The ones that every school has that if you show up and stay awake you'll at least get a B, maybe even an A if the teacher is in a good mood. The Intro to Drama, the Rocks for Jocks, the remedial math courses. NC State, never being known for our easy courses could keep the worst students eligible for 2-3 years this way. Hopefuly at this point they would be good enough to go Pro and save themselves the embarassment of flunking out. Sometimes not. The better students we could find some somewhat easy courses to take and get them through four years of eligibility before kicking them to the curb without any hope for a degree from the hodgepodge of courses they took and nary a "thank you". This was shameful and I'm embarassed that my school was one of the worst of the many schools that treated their athletes this way. This is directly what led to requirements from the NCAA to progress toward a degree to remain eligible, increasing GPA requirements each to again progress toward a degree and the APR to ensure the program as a whole is keeping atheltes on track for a degree.

Most think our NCAA scandal was what did damage to our program at the end of V's reign. Selling a couple of comp tickets and shoes are what got us a few years of probation, but what really happened was we changed our entire academic culture. We upped our academic requirements. We instituted twice a year checks at the end of fall and spring semesters for eligibility (where most schools only check at the end of the spring semester, leaving summer and "maymester" classes to regain eligiblity before the fall). We focused more on athletes who were more interested on academics. The result is a 25 year drought in any major ACC or national title.

UNC saw this same challenge, "how do you keep unprepared kids eligible?". Their solution was to create fake courses in a department that would create a path toward graduation without ever have to take a single legit course. Pad this Potemkin curriculum with the easy A's that every college has and boom! 97% graduation rates for your athletes without ever having to worry about keeping them eligible. The bonus with the fake courses means they spend less time studying and more time getting better at sports which helps you win more chamionships! When the entire system comes crumbling down, pin it on a few "rouge" administrators, say that mistakes had been made and plea to move along since the current crop of kids had nothing to do with it.

I can say without a doubt, that I am proud of the way NC State dealt with our malfeasance. Apparently most UNC fans and alumni are also pleased with the way UNC has dealt with their wrong doings. The reactions of both schools explains why I despise UNC to the very core of my being.

Thanks for reading.

OldPhiKap
04-01-2016, 12:19 PM
I'll try and post most of a response I had to the N&O article before comments were deleted and disabled (mostly due to abusive Tarheel trolls).

Back in the mid '80s NC State made news for our laughable graduation rate and players who were not what anyone would consider college material. We recruited the same athletes that UNC recruited and we landed our fair share of them. However, what we did then was push them through our easiest courses. The ones that every school has that if you show up and stay awake you'll at least get a B, maybe even an A if the teacher is in a good mood. The Intro to Drama, the Rocks for Jocks, the remedial math courses. NC State, never being known for our easy courses could keep the worst students eligible for 2-3 years this way. Hopefuly at this point they would be good enough to go Pro and save themselves the embarassment of flunking out. Sometimes not. The better students we could find some somewhat easy courses to take and get them through four years of eligibility before kicking them to the curb without any hope for a degree from the hodgepodge of courses they took and nary a "thank you". This was shameful and I'm embarassed that my school was one of the worst of the many schools that treated their athletes this way. This is directly what led to requirements from the NCAA to progress toward a degree to remain eligible, increasing GPA requirements each to again progress toward a degree and the APR to ensure the program as a whole is keeping atheltes on track for a degree.

Most think our NCAA scandal was what did damage to our program at the end of V's reign. Selling a couple of comp tickets and shoes are what got us a few years of probation, but what really happened was we changed our entire academic culture. We upped our academic requirements. We instituted twice a year checks at the end of fall and spring semesters for eligibility (where most schools only check at the end of the spring semester, leaving summer and "maymester" classes to regain eligiblity before the fall). We focused more on athletes who were more interested on academics. The result is a 25 year drought in any major ACC or national title.

UNC saw this same challenge, "how do you keep unprepared kids eligible?". Their solution was to create fake courses in a department that would create a path toward graduation without ever have to take a single legit course. Pad this Potemkin curriculum with the easy A's that every college has and boom! 97% graduation rates for your athletes without ever having to worry about keeping them eligible. The bonus with the fake courses means they spend less time studying and more time getting better at sports which helps you win more chamionships! When the entire system comes crumbling down, pin it on a few "rouge" administrators, say that mistakes had been made and plea to move along since the current crop of kids had nothing to do with it.

I can say without a doubt, that I am proud of the way NC State dealt with our malfeasance. Apparently most UNC fans and alumni are also pleased with the way UNC has dealt with their wrong doings. The reactions of both schools explains why I despise UNC to the very core of my being.

Thanks for reading.

A-men!

Indoor66
04-01-2016, 12:27 PM
The Current Committee on Infractions:



NCAA COMMITTEE ON INFRACTIONS


http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=1INFRACTION


FBS
Member
AD
Greg Christopher
Big East Conference
AUG 2018*


Xavier University


FBS
Chair
Commissioner
Gregory Sankey
Southeastern Conference
AUG 2016*


Southeastern Conference


FBS
Member
Deputy Director of Athletics
Melissa L. Conboy
Atlantic Coast Conference
AUG 2016*


University of Notre Dame


FBS
Member
FAR
James O'Fallon
Pac-12 Conference



University of Oregon


FBS
Member
Former President
Michael F. Adams
Southeastern Conference
AUG 2017*


University of Georgia


FBS
Member
Senior VP for Student Affairs
Thomas Hill
Big 12 Conference
AUG 2018*


Iowa State University


FBS
Member
VP for Athletic Compliance
David Roberts
Pac-12 Conference
AUG 2018*


University of Southern California


FCS
Member
Professor/Dean
Alberto Gonzales
Ohio Valley Conference
AUG 2017*


Belmont University


FCS
Member
University Counsel
Sankar Suryanarayan
The Ivy League
AUG 2016*


Princeton University


DI
Vice-Chair
FAR
Eleanor W. Myers
American Athletic Conference
AUG 2018*


Temple University


DI
Member
Chancellor
Gary L. Miller
Horizon League
AUG 2018*


University of Wisconsin-Green Bay



Member
Attorney
Jill Pilgrim

AUG 2017*


Pilgrim Associates



Member
Attorney
John Black

AUG 2017*


National Federation of State High School Associations



Member
Executive Director
Britton Banowsky

AUG 2017*


College Football Playoff Foundation



Member
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
Larry Parkinson

AUG 2017*


Federal Energy Regulatory Commission



Member
Former AD
Joel Maturi

AUG 2016*





Member
Former Head Coach
Joe Novak

AUG 2017*





Member
Former President
Carol Cartwright

AUG 2016*





Member
Legal Analyst-Attorney
Jack Ford

AUG 2017*





Member

Bobby Cremins

AUG 2016*

madscavenger
04-01-2016, 12:29 PM
Thanks for posting.................mad

MChambers
04-01-2016, 12:30 PM
Someone from FERC? That's very odd.

devildeac
04-01-2016, 12:40 PM
I'll try and post most of a response I had to the N&O article before comments were deleted and disabled (mostly due to abusive Tarheel trolls).

Back in the mid '80s NC State made news for our laughable graduation rate and players who were not what anyone would consider college material. We recruited the same athletes that UNC recruited and we landed our fair share of them. However, what we did then was push them through our easiest courses. The ones that every school has that if you show up and stay awake you'll at least get a B, maybe even an A if the teacher is in a good mood. The Intro to Drama, the Rocks for Jocks, the remedial math courses. NC State, never being known for our easy courses could keep the worst students eligible for 2-3 years this way. Hopefuly at this point they would be good enough to go Pro and save themselves the embarassment of flunking out. Sometimes not. The better students we could find some somewhat easy courses to take and get them through four years of eligibility before kicking them to the curb without any hope for a degree from the hodgepodge of courses they took and nary a "thank you". This was shameful and I'm embarassed that my school was one of the worst of the many schools that treated their athletes this way. This is directly what led to requirements from the NCAA to progress toward a degree to remain eligible, increasing GPA requirements each to again progress toward a degree and the APR to ensure the program as a whole is keeping atheltes on track for a degree.

Most think our NCAA scandal was what did damage to our program at the end of V's reign. Selling a couple of comp tickets and shoes are what got us a few years of probation, but what really happened was we changed our entire academic culture. We upped our academic requirements. We instituted twice a year checks at the end of fall and spring semesters for eligibility (where most schools only check at the end of the spring semester, leaving summer and "maymester" classes to regain eligiblity before the fall). We focused more on athletes who were more interested on academics. The result is a 25 year drought in any major ACC or national title.

UNC saw this same challenge, "how do you keep unprepared kids eligible?". Their solution was to create fake courses in a department that would create a path toward graduation without ever have to take a single legit course. Pad this Potemkin curriculum with the easy A's that every college has and boom! 97% graduation rates for your athletes without ever having to worry about keeping them eligible. The bonus with the fake courses means they spend less time studying and more time getting better at sports which helps you win more chamionships! When the entire system comes crumbling down, pin it on a few "rouge" administrators, say that mistakes had been made and plea to move along since the current crop of kids had nothing to do with it.

I can say without a doubt, that I am proud of the way NC State dealt with our malfeasance. Apparently most UNC fans and alumni are also pleased with the way UNC has dealt with their wrong doings. The reactions of both schools explains why I despise UNC to the very core of my being.

Thanks for reading.

No, thank you for posting/sharing. So sad, yet so true.

devildeac
04-01-2016, 12:43 PM
Someone from FERC? That's very odd.

Probably to regulate the amount of methane generated by "universities" like c*rolina when their responses roll in to the charges that have been filed and/or penalties assessed. :rolleyes:

Tom B.
04-01-2016, 12:50 PM
I'll try and post most of a response I had to the N&O article before comments were deleted and disabled (mostly due to abusive Tarheel trolls).

Back in the mid '80s NC State made news for our laughable graduation rate and players who were not what anyone would consider college material. We recruited the same athletes that UNC recruited and we landed our fair share of them. However, what we did then was push them through our easiest courses. The ones that every school has that if you show up and stay awake you'll at least get a B, maybe even an A if the teacher is in a good mood. The Intro to Drama, the Rocks for Jocks, the remedial math courses. NC State, never being known for our easy courses could keep the worst students eligible for 2-3 years this way. Hopefuly at this point they would be good enough to go Pro and save themselves the embarassment of flunking out. Sometimes not. The better students we could find some somewhat easy courses to take and get them through four years of eligibility before kicking them to the curb without any hope for a degree from the hodgepodge of courses they took and nary a "thank you". This was shameful and I'm embarassed that my school was one of the worst of the many schools that treated their athletes this way. This is directly what led to requirements from the NCAA to progress toward a degree to remain eligible, increasing GPA requirements each to again progress toward a degree and the APR to ensure the program as a whole is keeping atheltes on track for a degree.

Most think our NCAA scandal was what did damage to our program at the end of V's reign. Selling a couple of comp tickets and shoes are what got us a few years of probation, but what really happened was we changed our entire academic culture. We upped our academic requirements. We instituted twice a year checks at the end of fall and spring semesters for eligibility (where most schools only check at the end of the spring semester, leaving summer and "maymester" classes to regain eligiblity before the fall). We focused more on athletes who were more interested on academics. The result is a 25 year drought in any major ACC or national title.

UNC saw this same challenge, "how do you keep unprepared kids eligible?". Their solution was to create fake courses in a department that would create a path toward graduation without ever have to take a single legit course. Pad this Potemkin curriculum with the easy A's that every college has and boom! 97% graduation rates for your athletes without ever having to worry about keeping them eligible. The bonus with the fake courses means they spend less time studying and more time getting better at sports which helps you win more chamionships! When the entire system comes crumbling down, pin it on a few "rouge" administrators, say that mistakes had been made and plea to move along since the current crop of kids had nothing to do with it.

I can say without a doubt, that I am proud of the way NC State dealt with our malfeasance. Apparently most UNC fans and alumni are also pleased with the way UNC has dealt with their wrong doings. The reactions of both schools explains why I despise UNC to the very core of my being.

Thanks for reading.

Can't spork you, but that was beautiful.

PackMan97
04-01-2016, 12:53 PM
manalishi speaks - UNC has other problems besides the lie concerning the 12 hour limit. It appears they have not really told the NCAA or SAACS about the two-IS course limit per student per semester. One that Rashad McCants broke and definitely that other atheltes broke as well.


manalishi wrote: Alright, here is the situation:

As you know, Dan Kane's article from yesterday strongly suggests that there were certain (UNC) university policies in place -- prior to 2006 -- that said that no more than 12 hours worth of Independent Studies courses could count towards graduation.
Those athletes that DID take more than 12 hours of I.S., and it counted towards their cumulative degrees/hours/GPA's, received impermissible benefits in the eyes of the NCAA -- this was all outlined in the NOA.

UNC has said that such a policy was only implemented beginning in 2006 --- and they made sure to tell the NCAA and SACS the same thing.

One might surmise that UNC was trying to prevent the years of 2005 (and earlier) from being affected.
And of course, we all know what happened in 2005 --- they won an NCAA title.

So just for the moment let's all assume that the NCAA chooses to ignore Kane's article, and the strong evidence that he supplies (via UNC's own documentation) that the 12-hour Independent Studies limit extended further back than 2006.
Let's assume that.

And that would be okay...

Because there is another academic policy from within UNC's own documentation that points to another impermissible benefit that at least one of its pre-2006 athletics was given.

UNC releases an Undergraduate Bulletin for each specific "College" every year.
One such release is for the College of Arts and Sciences, and it states the "Regulations and Requirements", as well as the "Policy on Awarding of Undergraduate Degrees and Transcript Notations". Essentially, the "academic rules" of being a student in said college.

There is a section that specifically pertains to Independent Studies, and this section has been consistent and unchanged since the early 2000's. (the bulletins are out there and online, and have been hard-copied saved as well)

That section on Independent Studies states, in part:



A. Students may enroll and begin work at any time during the year. They may be enrolled in a maximum of two courses at any one time. An Independent Studies course enrollment expires nine months from the date of enrollment.


////

As you might recall, Rashad McCants revealed on "Outside the Lines" that he rarely went to class. In fact, he stated that he NEVER went to class during the Spring semester of 2005 -- when UNC won the National Title -- but managed to make the Dean's List.

To bolster his claim of taking easy/no classes that semester, his transcript was shown during that "Outside the Lines" episode. Part of the image shown displayed his Spring 2005 classes:


http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/WBHylton/BornToBeLoved.jpg



As you can see, McCants took three no-doubt Independent Studies courses that semester (and likely a fourth course that would also be considered I.S. -- but definitely at least three).

This breaks the university's own policy that states a student "may be enrolled in a maximum of two (Independent Studies) courses at one time".
By being allowed to enroll in more than two I.S. courses, McCants was given an impermissible benefit.
Once he began that semester (in January of 2005) he became (retroactively) ineligible.
That means he was ineligible to participate in the 2005 National Title game -- thus invalidating that game's final result.

Conclusion:
Even if the NCAA does not accept the information provided in Dan Kane's article from yesterday regarding the 12-hour graduation limit on Independent Studies courses (pre-2006), there is another UNC policy that at least one former athlete was allowed to break -- and it was from 2005.

How many other athletes were allowed to take more than two Independent Studies courses at one time, and during which years?

devildeac
04-01-2016, 12:53 PM
Can't spork you, but that was beautiful.

Gotcha covered.

OldPhiKap
04-01-2016, 12:57 PM
The Current Committee on Infractions:



Alberto Gonzales, Bobby Cremins, Mike Adams. Notre Dame has a rep too. Some interesting names.

sammy3469
04-01-2016, 01:01 PM
Alberto Gonzales, Bobby Cremins, Mike Adams. Notre Dame has a rep too. Some interesting names.

The one that would have me very concerned if I was UNC would be David Roberts. I'm not quite sure how USC has a rep on the Committee, but I can almost guarantee he's not there to let other universities off easily.

MChambers
04-01-2016, 01:04 PM
Probably to regulate the amount of methane generated by "universities" like c*rolina when their responses roll in to the charges that have been filed and/or penalties assessed. :rolleyes:

Actually, he's the FERC's Director of Enforcement, which might bode well:


Larry R. Parkinson, Director

Larry R. Parkinson is the Director of the Office of Enforcement. From March 2010 to April 2015, he served as Director of the Division of Investigations in the Office of Enforcement. Before joining FERC, Mr. Parkinson served as Deputy Assistant Secretary at the U.S. Department of the Interior, General Counsel of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, General Counsel of the U.S. Small Business Administration, Assistant United States Attorney for the District of Columbia, litigation associate at Ropes & Gray, and law clerk to the Honorable William G. Young of the U.S. District Court for Massachusetts. He has twice received a Presidential Rank Award for Meritorious Service.

Mr. Parkinson is a graduate of Northern State University and Harvard Law School, where he served as an editor of the Harvard Law Review. Before law school, he worked for four years on Capitol Hill as a staff member to two congressmen and as a subcommittee minority staff director.

http://www.ferc.gov/about/offices/oe/oe-parkinson.asp

OldPhiKap
04-01-2016, 01:08 PM
The one that would have me very concerned if I was UNC would be David Roberts. I'm not quite sure how USC has a rep on the Committee, but I can almost guarantee he's not there to let other universities off easily.

Michael Adams was president of UGa when the whole Jim Harrick thing blew up. A quick look back at Harrick's infractions, per Wikipedia:



His tenure at Georgia ended in controversy in the spring of 2003. His son, Jim Harrick, Jr., a Georgia assistant, got into trouble for paying $300 in expenses for one of his players, Tony Cole. He also gave an "A" to Cole, Rashad Wright and Chris Daniels for a basketball strategy class even though they never attended the class. After the story broke, Georgia pulled out of the 2003 SEC Tournament and withdrew from postseason consideration. The school suspended Harrick, Jr. on February 28, 2003 and fired him five days later. Harrick, Sr. was suspended on March 10 and resigned on March 27 after being told his contract wouldn't be renewed.

An NCAA investigation confirmed the violations and also found that six players didn't pay for over $1,500 of long-distance telephone calls in December 2001. The telephone charges in question were due to hotel error and ultimately never charged to the program. Since they weren't valid charges, Georgia didn't self-report the violations until an internal investigation into the program in July 2003. In 2004 the NCAA placed Georgia on four years' probation for the violations. It also forced the Bulldogs to vacate half of their wins from 2001–02 and all of their wins from 2002–03—30 games in all. Harrick, Jr. was given a seven-year show-cause penalty order for his role in the academic fraud, as well as telling two of the players involved to lie to the NCAA. The "show-cause" effectively blackballed him from the college ranks until 2011 at the earliest.


That's a pretty severe punishment for what, in relation to UNc(LV), seems like small potatoes. And UGa (and Adams) were very proactive, self-imposing almost immediately and firing those involved in the duplicity.

moonpie23
04-01-2016, 01:30 PM
I can't read Manalishi any more......i'd have to go back to smoking....

martydoesntfoul
04-01-2016, 02:01 PM
manalishi speaks - UNC has other problems besides the lie concerning the 12 hour limit. It appears they have not really told the NCAA or SAACS about the two-IS course limit per student per semester. One that Rashad McCants broke and definitely that other atheltes broke as well.

If that rule was indeed in place, this is some of the most damning evidence I've seen. I should think Dan Kane would eat it up, and that the NCAA would have a very difficult time ignoring it. Does anyone know if these revelations are being forwarded along to them? Of course, I also wouldn't mind a pre-game bombshell by TBS delivered to millions of viewers about more evidence coming to light, but perhaps I'm asking for too much...

swood1000
04-01-2016, 02:25 PM
But, the COI is limited by the allegations made by the NCAA, no? That's why I find the delay in a new NOA interesting. We have no idea what it's going to look like.

The original NOA was put on hold due to UNC's reporting two new violations in the middle of August...over 7 months ago. Recall that the original NOA was issued in May after the Weinstein report came out in October...7 months. How is the new NOA taking more time than the original, which presumably covered a much more vast set of allegations? And, regarding Emmert's comments, how much university cooperation and gathering of facts is necessary for the additional two infractions uncovered by UNC? It seems to me like a set of extensively revised allegations will be presented, rather than just tacking on the new infractions to the previous list of allegations.
The original NOA (http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/updates/unc-chapel-hill-releases-ncaa-notice-of-allegations/), in Allegation 1a, alleged impermissible benefits generally, but it did not state which specific actions or activities constituted impermissible benefits. The general charge was:


Athletics academic counselors in the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes (ASPSA) leveraged their relationships with faculty and staff members in the African and Afro-American Studies (AFRI/AFAM) department to obtain and/or provide special arrangements to student-athletes that were not generally available to the student body.

and they gave examples of types of activities:

• requesting certain course offerings within the AFRI/AFAM department on behalf of student-athletes,

• contacting individuals within the AFRI/AFAM department to register student-athletes in courses,

• obtaining assignments for classes taught in the AFRI/AFAM department on behalf of student-athletes,

• suggesting assignments to the AFRI/AFAM department for student-athletes to complete,

• turning in papers on behalf of student-athletes,

• recommending grades

They may have done it this way because (a) they could get the NOA out sooner, and (b) it was possible that UNC would plead guilty to specific charges and then they wouldn't have to specify everything in detail. But if UNC's response was to dig in its heels then there was no getting around having to specify which students were involved and what the specific extra benefit was in each case.

So probably part of what they have been doing has been requesting additional information from UNC that they hope will enable them to prove their case. They may have been asking for additional emails, for records showing meetings between ASPSA counselors and students, for records showing communications between counselors and AFRI/AFAM personnel, for calendars showing activities at the time, for any other documents that may still exist. They may have wanted to conduct additional interviews with counselors, with administrative staff and possibly with students. Somehow they have to demonstrate that these students attended these classes as a result of the activities of the ASPSA counselors, since the allegation is extra benefits from those counselors. They may also have chosen to add additional charges.

Ironically, the enforcement staff may have breathed a sigh of relief when UNC came up with the additional items, necessitating a delay to investigate, because that gave the enforcement staff as much additional delay as they wanted to put together their case, whereas if UNC hadn't done that the enforcement staff would only have had an additional 60 days.

Lar77
04-01-2016, 02:28 PM
manalishi speaks - UNC has other problems besides the lie concerning the 12 hour limit. It appears they have not really told the NCAA or SAACS about the two-IS course limit per student per semester. One that Rashad McCants broke and definitely that other atheltes broke as well.

The biggest problem with the IS infraction is that there is no indication that the cheats followed any reasonable protocol in defining and supervising independent study. I can understand, in an honest school, how an athlete would do IS because of the schedule flexibility, but doesn't it require close interaction with a supervising professor? And some level of academic research?

Packman, I agree with your earlier post. State has upped its game.

My concern is that even after this is all over, the cheats will find another way. Until they get hurt hard, there is no economic incentive to change.

CameronBlue
04-01-2016, 02:37 PM
It's the persistent lying that strikes me. It's an institution of higher learning for crying out loud, you'd expect people of higher moral character to be in charge. You see a stronger code of ethics in street gangs.

BD80
04-01-2016, 02:40 PM
... Of course, if the NCAA really wanted to deliver a nice little "f--- you" to Carolina, they could release the revised NOA, like, today.

It is Friday ...

PackMan97
04-01-2016, 02:49 PM
My concern is that even after this is all over, the cheats will find another way. Until they get hurt hard, there is no economic incentive to change.

They already have.

The new scam is to get their atheltes diagnosed as learning disabled or having ADHD. The bonus to this is they get curriculum exemptions, performancing enhancing drugs, extra tutors, extra time taking tests, etc and it's all "above board".

Bluedevilicous has a ton of information on their new scam on his site. Also make sure to follow him on twitter for updates.
http://www.bluedevilicious.com/ld-adhd-testing-documents-at-unc.html
https://twitter.com/bluedevilicious

Here are some smoking guns regarding the move to the LD/ADHD scam
After Crowder's retirement, the budget for LD/ADHD testing jumped 67%
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CePDbXtVIAA7kL_.jpg:large

Existing pressure to get students labeled as LD
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CePDbLBUUAEaY4C.jpg:large

LD% in UNC student population: 1%
LD% in UNC athlete population: 60%
https://twitter.com/BlueDevilicious/status/712486334552629248

A bit of a summary of facts:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdI8hXNVAAEmfnu.jpg:large

Lar77
04-01-2016, 03:16 PM
They already have.

The new scam is to get their atheltes diagnosed as learning disabled or having ADHD. The bonus to this is they get curriculum exemptions, performancing enhancing drugs, extra tutors, extra time taking tests, etc and it's all "above board".

Bluedevilicous has a ton of information on their new scam on his site. Also make sure to follow him on twitter for updates.
http://www.bluedevilicious.com/ld-adhd-testing-documents-at-unc.html
https://twitter.com/bluedevilicious

Here are some smoking guns regarding the move to the LD/ADHD scam
After Crowder's retirement, the budget for LD/ADHD testing jumped 67%
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CePDbXtVIAA7kL_.jpg:large

Existing pressure to get students labeled as LD
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CePDbLBUUAEaY4C.jpg:large

LD% in UNC student population: 1%
LD% in UNC athlete population: 60%
https://twitter.com/BlueDevilicious/status/712486334552629248

A bit of a summary of facts:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdI8hXNVAAEmfnu.jpg:large

Thanks Packman.

The disparity in population incidence is astounding. Based on some of the things Willingham shared and some of the things in the Wainstein Report, it sounds like cheats don't care if someone should be in college or what they get out of it.

Where is the outcry from alumni/athletes that actually took real classes?

Indoor66
04-01-2016, 03:19 PM
Thanks Packman.

The disparity in population incidence is astounding. Based on some of the things Willingham shared and some of the things in the Wainstein Report, it sounds like cheats don't care if someone should be in college or what they get out of it.

Where is the outcry from alumni/athletes that actually took real classes?

You know that will never happen. You know, the carolina way.:mad: :cool:

Duke79UNLV77
04-01-2016, 03:22 PM
Thanks Packman.

The disparity in population incidence is astounding. Based on some of the things Willingham shared and some of the things in the Wainstein Report, it sounds like cheats don't care if someone should be in college or what they get out of it.

Where is the outcry from alumni/athletes that actually took real classes?

Plus, the girlfriend of "Fats" Thomas, the felon who provided $15K of free rental cars to P.J. Hairston, worked at the testing lab. Now, it's starting to make sense ...

http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-scandal.html

Jarhead
04-01-2016, 03:53 PM
Thanks Packman.

The disparity in population incidence is astounding. Based on some of the things Willingham shared and some of the things in the Wainstein Report, it sounds like cheats don't care if someone should be in college or what they get out of it.

Where is the outcry from alumni/athletes that actually took real classes?

I'll go a bit higher -- where is the outcry from the state government including the Governor, the State Attorney General, and the State Legislature?

slower
04-01-2016, 03:57 PM
I'll go a bit higher -- where is the outcry from the state government including the Governor, the State Attorney General, and the State Legislature?

Well, Roy Cooper is a UNC grad.

oldnavy
04-01-2016, 04:13 PM
I'll go a bit higher -- where is the outcry from the state government including the Governor, the State Attorney General, and the State Legislature?

I think they have enough on their plate right now....

I think the press is the venue for this to play out, so I keep hoping it will gain traction. Around The Horn panelist Jackie McMullen just mentioned UNC being on probation for 6 years in their kind of silly mock debate format going on right now.....

billy
04-01-2016, 04:46 PM
I understand the 'fake classes' vanished before the current players were at UNC. And, it appears that the fake class solution morphed into the LD/ADHD scheme outlined in the posts above. Is there any evidence whether the LD/ADHD scheme is still active? Did (does) it affect any current athletes?