Men's Basketball: How many scholarships were used this year? How many "saved"?

[chazz101s]

In EVERY discussion that I've seen (here in EKF) and in newspapers, I've never seen the numbers--2015-16, Duke had X scholarships being used/awarded and Y scholarships that were not used ("saved"). . . ?

Anybody know the specific numbers?

BTW, I did an advanced search for "scholarship" and came up with this thread:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35903-How-many-scholarship-players-will-be-on-the-2015-16-roster/page2&highlight=scholarship

From what we now know about the 2015-16 season, the above thread was both blind and way insightful.

Anyhow, if I've overlooked applicable data about this year's scholarships here on EKF, I apologize.

The title of this thread reflects my frustration--even disbelief--that a Duke basketball team could wind up so short-handed as this year's team.

Yes, I know that Tyus J's entering the draft was, perhaps, a surprise. Yes, I have learned here on the Forum that Obi has been physically unable to help this team, which perhaps couldn't have been anticipated. Yes, I know that Jeter has had a tough, tough year. (Hey, I remember when Will Avery was a surprise, going pro.)

But a season like this one--it hurts.

These days, doesn't a coaching staff have to run scenarios in which the 2015-16 debacle was at least considered--if not planned for?

If the kind of short-handedness suffered by this year's men's basketball team had happened in the profit (or non-profit) business world, I'm thinking that somebody (or somebodies) would be looking for new jobs.

Will the men's basketball staff learn from their 2015-16 failure to recruit enough bodies?

Ducking here--but scholarship numbers, please, if you have them.

[rsvman]

I don't have any insight into scholarship numbers for you. I just came on this thread to object most strenuously to the use of the word debacle to describe this season, which, by the way, isn't over yet.

[El_Diablo]

Here's the roster:

2 Chase Jeter F/C 6-10 240 Fr. Las Vegas, Nev. (Bishop Gorman)
3 Grayson Allen G 6-5 205 So. Jacksonville, Fla. (Providence School)
5 Luke Kennard G 6-5 180 Fr. Franklin, Ohio (Franklin)
12 Derryck Thornton G 6-2 175 Fr. Chatsworth, Calif. (Findlay Prep [Nev.])
13 Matt Jones G 6-5 200 Jr. DeSoto, Texas (DeSoto)
14 Brandon Ingram G/F 6-9 190 Fr. Kinston, N.C. (Kinston)
21 Amile Jefferson F 6-9 225 Sr. Philadelphia, Pa. (Friends Central School)
30 Antonio Vrankovic C 7-0 270 Fr. Delray Beach, Fla. (Pine Crest School)
34 Sean Obi F 6-9 250 So. Kaduna, Nigeria (Greens Farms Academy)
40 Marshall Plumlee C 7-0 250 Gr. Warsaw, Ind. (Christ School [N.C.])
45 Nick Pagliuca G 6-3 195 Jr. Weston, Mass. (Milton Academy)
50 Justin Robinson F 6-8 190 Fr. San Antonio, Texas (San Antonio Christian Academy)
53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 180 Fr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

I believe everyone but Nick and Brennan are on scholarship this year (Justin is getting one this year because we had one available, but he is on a preferred/recruited walk-on status and is not promised a scholarship every year). So...11 scholarships.

I don't understand your reference to "saved" scholarships, unless you just mean "unused." If so, we have 2 unused scholarships.

[pfrduke]

We had 10 recruited scholarship players - Allen, Ingram, Jones, Jefferson, Plumlee, Kennard, Thornton, Obi, Jeter, Vrankovic. We then had three additional roster athletes: Robinson, Pagliuca, Besser. I believe at least Robinson, but maybe all three, were on scholarship for this season because we did not otherwise fill our complement of 13.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

But a season like this one--it hurts.



I think it is fair to ask how we ended up so short-handed (though I think you already answered you own question through your comment) but I disagree wholeheartedly with your above statement. I have enjoyed this season immensely. Our team has been frequently overmatched, often tired, and always short-handed. We have played hard, tough, gritty ball and never once backed down. Outside of the recent Pitt game, we have been "in" every game in the last minutes.

Allen has been remarkable. Ingram has developed in many facets in a short amount of time. And MP3 has become a man unleashed, as we haven't seen since Z.

We didn't win every game. We won some games we probably ought to have lost, though. And I really like our guys.

In a wide-open year with no strong national favorites, I will continue to enjoy every minute of ball these guys have left.

To your bigger and valid point of how we got here, there's plenty of time to dissect that in the off season. For now I am going to appreciate and support our guys on the floor during their last minutes of the season.

Let's Go Duke!

[dukelifer]

In EVERY discussion that I've seen (here in EKF) and in newspapers, I've never seen the numbers--2015-16, Duke had X scholarships being used/awarded and Y scholarships that were not used ("saved"). . . ?

Anybody know the specific numbers?

BTW, I did an advanced search for "scholarship" and came up with this thread:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35903-How-many-scholarship-players-will-be-on-the-2015-16-roster/page2&highlight=scholarship

From what we now know about the 2015-16 season, the above thread was both blind and way insightful.

Anyhow, if I've overlooked applicable data about this year's scholarships here on EKF, I apologize.

The title of this thread reflects my frustration--even disbelief--that a Duke basketball team could wind up so short-handed as this year's team.

Yes, I know that Tyus J's entering the draft was, perhaps, a surprise. Yes, I have learned here on the Forum that Obi has been physically unable to help this team, which perhaps couldn't have been anticipated. Yes, I know that Jeter has had a tough, tough year. (Hey, I remember when Will Avery was a surprise, going pro.)

But a season like this one--it hurts.

These days, doesn't a coaching staff have to run scenarios in which the 2015-16 debacle was at least considered--if not planned for?

If the kind of short-handedness suffered by this year's men's basketball team had happened in the profit (or non-profit) business world, I'm thinking that somebody (or somebodies) would be looking for new jobs.

Will the men's basketball staff learn from their 2015-16 failure to recruit enough bodies?

Ducking here--but scholarship numbers, please, if you have them.

When you say the season hurts is that because you believe that if Duke had recruited another top 5 player- that player could have replaced an injured Amile Jefferson or if Duke had better anticipated Semi O leaving or that Rasheed S would have done something to get kicked off the team- Duke would be not in the position of having little experience? Duke ran into bad luck. They also look into the future so they can recruit multiple top 10 guys in a given class that fit K's style. The only thing that hurt for me is not having Amile out there during the ACC season.

[MarkD83]

Quick answer going forward and then I will continue to enjoy this years team that has shown great heart and toughness.

Assuming amile gets his redshirt and Grayson stays and Ingram goes.

There are 13 players with scholarships next year. 5 freshmen 4 sophs 2 juniors 1 senior 1 grad student.

This years team was short handed by justise and tyus leaving early and semi transferring. Derryck (sp due to buttons on phone) offset this a little.


Just to add the decisions by semi justise and tyus were great because they decided they were the right things for them to do.

[freshmanjs]

Quick answer going forward and then I will continue to enjoy this years team that has shown great heart and toughness.

Assuming amile gets his redshirt and Grayson stays and Ingram goes.

There are 13 players with scholarships next year. 5 freshmen 4 sophs 2 juniors 1 senior 1 grad student.

This years team was short handed by justise and tyus leaving early and semi transferring. Derryck (sp due to buttons on phone) offset this a little.

and Sulaimon being dismissed and Amile's injury.

[Henderson]

and Obi not being able to contribute.

We know now that his knees aren't 100%. K said he's ok in the half-court game but....

[CDu]

We used 11 scholarships this year. That does not include the unexpected dismissal of Sulaimon and the transfer of Ojeleye. Of course, Duke probably wouldn't have tried to convince Thornton to come early had Sulaimon been around, so that's six of one, half dozen of the other. It also doesn't include the failed attempt at landing Swanigan, a top-10 recruit big man. But had we gotten Swanigan, we probably don't bring in Vrankovic. So again, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Most programs don't use all of their allotted scholarships. This is especially true for teams affected by the one-and-done era. You just never know who will leave and who will return. Heck, had we not done so well in the tournament, it's possible that Tyus Jones returns. But his Final Four performance and our championship took away any doubt there.

As for next year, we will most likely max out our scholarships. We'll lose Plumlee, Ingram, and most likely Allen, and we'll add Giles, Tatum, Jackson, DeLaurier, and White. That puts us at 12 scholarships, with an offer outstanding for Bolden. If Bolden accepts (I suspect this is unlikely given Jefferson's return), then either Robinson will go back to non-scholarship status (he wasn't recruited by Duke, and the understanding is that a scholarship is only available if we don't use them all on recruited players) or someone else is leaving that we don't know about. Either way, though, we'll likely use all 13 of our scholarships.

But the issue with this season had very little to do with the lack of use of scholarships. We had a TON of bigs going into the season. There was an ongoing debate about who was going to get squeezed out of minutes. There were four bigs not including Ingram. Early in the season, Coach K was talking as though we had 8 starters (with Jeter being a "starter"). It turned out that neither Jeter or Obi was ready or able to convince Coach K that they deserved meaningful minutes. As such, when Jefferson went down, we became incredibly thin. But that had nothing to do with lack of recruiting foresight. We had a ton of depth already, and we tried very hard to land a better-quality big in Swanigan anyway.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I agree with most of the comments above, and there is something else to consider: with the unexpected emergence of Winslow and Tyus, we did not know until pretty late in the recruiting cycle how potentially short handed we could be this year. At that point, there were not many uncommitted players out there, and we did well to get the players we did. However, the current freshman class nationally was considered one of the weaker classes in a long time. So we might have been able to get someone else to have another player for practice and emergencies, but is it worth tying up a scholarship for the next four years to have someone who is likely to play minimally and doesn't have a lot of upside? I would rather play with what I have this year (which, despite the cries of the Chicken Littles on this board has worked out pretty well) and not mortgage our future.

[Saratoga2]

We used 11 scholarships this year. That does not include the unexpected dismissal of Sulaimon and the transfer of Ojeleye. Of course, Duke probably wouldn't have tried to convince Thornton to come early had Sulaimon been around, so that's six of one, half dozen of the other. It also doesn't include the failed attempt at landing Swanigan, a top-10 recruit big man. But had we gotten Swanigan, we probably don't bring in Vrankovic. So again, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Most programs don't use all of their allotted scholarships. This is especially true for teams affected by the one-and-done era. You just never know who will leave and who will return. Heck, had we not done so well in the tournament, it's possible that Tyus Jones returns. But his Final Four performance and our championship took away any doubt there.

As for next year, we will most likely max out our scholarships. We'll lose Plumlee, Ingram, and most likely Allen, and we'll add Giles, Tatum, Jackson, DeLaurier, and White. That puts us at 12 scholarships, with an offer outstanding for Bolden. If Bolden accepts (I suspect this is unlikely given Jefferson's return), then either Robinson will go back to non-scholarship status (he wasn't recruited by Duke, and the understanding is that a scholarship is only available if we don't use them all on recruited players) or someone else is leaving that we don't know about. Either way, though, we'll likely use all 13 of our scholarships.

But the issue with this season had very little to do with the lack of use of scholarships. We had a TON of bigs going into the season. There was an ongoing debate about who was going to get squeezed out of minutes. There were four bigs not including Ingram. Early in the season, Coach K was talking as though we had 8 starters (with Jeter being a "starter"). It turned out that neither Jeter or Obi was ready or able to convince Coach K that they deserved meaningful minutes. As such, when Jefferson went down, we became incredibly thin. But that had nothing to do with lack of recruiting foresight. We had a ton of depth already, and we tried very hard to land a better-quality big in Swanigan anyway.

There are some unknowns every year, such as will we have any transfers. Barring that, the other unknowns are about Grayson and Amile's status and Obi's knee health. Vrank is about the same size and athletic ability as Marshall and like Marshall probably needs/needed time to contribute but I wouldn't rule out a significant step forward for him next season. Perhaps Justin will also step forward to add playing depth to the team as well. The fact is that we still have the offer out to Bolden who would compete with Amile for PT. Giles and Tatum are both likely starters at the forward positions and we will be loaded at the guard position even without Grayson. Coach K is building more depth going forward.

[wk2109]

In EVERY discussion that I've seen (here in EKF) and in newspapers, I've never seen the numbers--2015-16, Duke had X scholarships being used/awarded and Y scholarships that were not used ("saved"). . . ?

Anybody know the specific numbers?

BTW, I did an advanced search for "scholarship" and came up with this thread:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35903-How-many-scholarship-players-will-be-on-the-2015-16-roster/page2&highlight=scholarship

From what we now know about the 2015-16 season, the above thread was both blind and way insightful.

Anyhow, if I've overlooked applicable data about this year's scholarships here on EKF, I apologize.

The title of this thread reflects my frustration--even disbelief--that a Duke basketball team could wind up so short-handed as this year's team.

Yes, I know that Tyus J's entering the draft was, perhaps, a surprise. Yes, I have learned here on the Forum that Obi has been physically unable to help this team, which perhaps couldn't have been anticipated. Yes, I know that Jeter has had a tough, tough year. (Hey, I remember when Will Avery was a surprise, going pro.)

But a season like this one--it hurts.

These days, doesn't a coaching staff have to run scenarios in which the 2015-16 debacle was at least considered--if not planned for?

If the kind of short-handedness suffered by this year's men's basketball team had happened in the profit (or non-profit) business world, I'm thinking that somebody (or somebodies) would be looking for new jobs.

Will the men's basketball staff learn from their 2015-16 failure to recruit enough bodies?

Ducking here--but scholarship numbers, please, if you have them.

Below is a breakdown of the past 6 rosters, taking into account positions, redshirts, transfers/dismissals, etc. With the exception of 1 season ('13-'14), Duke has had 10 eligible recruited scholarship players (I'm applying redshirts in hindsight to guys who didn't play and am considering them ineligible). So just looking at the numbers, this season doesn't really stick out compared to the previous 5.

There are a few factors to take into account, some of which may affect your perception of Duke being short-handed or unprepared:
1. The staff presumably expected Sulaimon (and probably Tyus) to be on this year's roster. However, if Sulaimon and/or Tyus were on this year's roster, Thornton probably wouldn't have reclassified.
2. Getting Ingram to commit was huge. If he hadn't chosen Duke, who knows where the team/roster would be today.
3. The staff probably didn't expect Semi to transfer.
4. Of course, Amile's injury was huge. It transformed Ingram from a "hybrid" to a "big," which means that Duke has only had 4 guys to man the 3 perimeter positions. It also means that there was no real backup at the 4 spot -- either Jeter had to play the 4 (which K clearly doesn't prefer), or Duke has played all 4 perimeter guys around a big. In the 24 games Duke has played since Amile went down, Ingram has played every single minute of 6 games (this doesn't include his 42 minutes in the overtime game against Utah). He's played 37+ minutes in 10 additional games (including Utah).
5. The staff probably expected Jeter and/or Obi to be more ready to contribute.
6. This season was the only season besides '12-'13 in which half of the scholarship players were strictly bigs. So, this season is similar to '12-'13 in that we have 4 guys playing the 3 perimeter spots. However this season differs from '12-'13 because we had multiple guys who K gave minutes at the 4 spot (Kelly, Hairston, Jefferson and Murphy), whereas this year it's been primarily just Ingram.

In my opinion, taking into account the unexpected dismissal of Sulaimon and perhaps unexpected early entry of Tyus, the staff did a great job putting together this year's roster. The bad luck came with the combination of a) Amile's injury AND b) Jeter/Obi's inability to contribute. If we only had one of a) or b), you probably wouldn't be calling this season a "debacle" (which is an assessment I strongly disagree with).

'10-'11 (10 total scholarship players)

Perimeter (5 total)
Irving
Smith
Thornton
Dawkins
Curry

Hybrid (1 total)
Singler

Bigs (4 total)
Plumlee
Plumlee
Hairston
Kelly

'11-'12 (12 total scholarship players, 10 eligible)

Perimeter (6 total)
Rivers
Cook
Thornton
Dawkins
Curry
Gbinije

Hybrid (1 total, 0 eligible)
Murphy*

Bigs (5 total, 4 eligible)
Plumlee
Plumlee
Hairston
Kelly
Plumlee*

'12-'13 (12 total scholarship players, 10 eligible)

Perimeter (5 total, 4 eligible)
Cook
Thornton
Sulaimon
Dawkins*
Curry

Hybrid (2 total, 1 eligible)
Hood*
Murphy**

Bigs (5 total)
Plumlee
Hairston
Jefferson
Kelly
Plumlee

'13-'14 (11 total scholarship players)

Perimeter (5 total)
Cook
Thornton
Jones
Sulaimon
Dawkins

Hybrid (2 total)
Hood
Ojeleye

Bigs (4 total)
Parker
Hairston
Jefferson
Plumlee

'14-'15 (11 total scholarship players, 10 eligible)

Perimeter (5 total)
Cook
Jones
Sulaimon**
Jones
Allen

Hybrid (2 total)
Ojeleye**
Winslow

Bigs (4 total, 3 eligible)
Jefferson
Plumlee
Okafor
Obi*

'15-'16 (10 total scholarship players)

Perimeter (4 total)
Jones
Allen
Kennard
Thornton

Hybrid (1 total)
Ingram

Bigs (5 total)
Jefferson
Plumlee
Obi
Jeter
Vrankovic

*redshirt
**midseason transfer/dismissal

[Matches]

Most teams have a player or two who they can't really afford to lose. Imagine an injury to Singler in 2010. Or Kelly in 2012 (ouch - don't have to imagine that one). What if UNC lost Brice? (Or Kendall Marshall in 2012?) Unfortunately Amile was that guy for us. It happens.

No one really wants to come to Duke to be an insurance policy in case of injury. It's only realistic to have so much quality depth. If Jeter had played the way most of us thought he would, we'd have been fine.

[duke09hms]

In EVERY discussion that I've seen (here in EKF) and in newspapers, I've never seen the numbers--2015-16, Duke had X scholarships being used/awarded and Y scholarships that were not used ("saved"). . . ?

Anybody know the specific numbers?

BTW, I did an advanced search for "scholarship" and came up with this thread:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35903-How-many-scholarship-players-will-be-on-the-2015-16-roster/page2&highlight=scholarship

From what we now know about the 2015-16 season, the above thread was both blind and way insightful.

Anyhow, if I've overlooked applicable data about this year's scholarships here on EKF, I apologize.

The title of this thread reflects my frustration--even disbelief--that a Duke basketball team could wind up so short-handed as this year's team.

Yes, I know that Tyus J's entering the draft was, perhaps, a surprise. Yes, I have learned here on the Forum that Obi has been physically unable to help this team, which perhaps couldn't have been anticipated. Yes, I know that Jeter has had a tough, tough year. (Hey, I remember when Will Avery was a surprise, going pro.)

But a season like this one--it hurts.

These days, doesn't a coaching staff have to run scenarios in which the 2015-16 debacle was at least considered--if not planned for?

If the kind of short-handedness suffered by this year's men's basketball team had happened in the profit (or non-profit) business world, I'm thinking that somebody (or somebodies) would be looking for new jobs.

Will the men's basketball staff learn from their 2015-16 failure to recruit enough bodies?

Ducking here--but scholarship numbers, please, if you have them.

haha don't worry, totally legitimate question, and I felt the same everytime K mentioned "we only have 6 guys" in his press conferences, to which I would always think, "well, why do we only have 6 guys?"

But honestly, this year is not any poor reflection on K's planning abilities. Most championship teams usually see a mass exodus of talent leaving for the NBA, and they do terribly the year after. Tyus and Justise were unexpected departures, especially since Justise would be perfect at the 4 this year, and Tyus was probably the biggest surprise departure given his lack of size and athleticism. We'd have several more wins with Tyus at the PG this year, an experienced hand and expert game manager. No blown leads for sure. Sulaimon was a surprise dismissal though he wouldn't have really helped in the post.

Last year, we were probably planning to go into this year with Justise, Amile, Plumlee, Obi, Jeter, and Vrank in the post. Justise/Amile/Plumlee would have crushed it. Then of course Justise explodes and leaves, Amile gets injured, Obi has knee problems, and voila here we are. It's hard to find fault with K, I mean perhaps he COULD have recruited another big man in 2013 or 2014 who would be ready this year. But either he's talented and doesn't want to play behind Jabari/Jahlil or he's not that good to contribute.

BUT at the same time, 1 injury shouldn't entirely derail our season, and maybe K is taking steps to mitigate that with a big recruiting class coming in this year and only 2 or 3 departures.

[BigWayne]

Verbal commits can help understand the scholarship count. http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/duke

What they have posted (-1 scholarships available for incoming recruits) does not take into account:

Amile returning (-1)
Robinson going off scholarship (+1)
Ingram going pro (+1)
Allen going pro (+1)

If all 4 of those happen, then there is one spot for Bolden. If Allen stays, then there are no open spots for him to go into unless something else changes.

[CDu]

There are some unknowns every year, such as will we have any transfers. Barring that, the other unknowns are about Grayson and Amile's status and Obi's knee health. Vrank is about the same size and athletic ability as Marshall and like Marshall probably needs/needed time to contribute but I wouldn't rule out a significant step forward for him next season. Perhaps Justin will also step forward to add playing depth to the team as well. The fact is that we still have the offer out to Bolden who would compete with Amile for PT. Giles and Tatum are both likely starters at the forward positions and we will be loaded at the guard position even without Grayson. Coach K is building more depth going forward.

At the risk of dangerous speculation, I do wonder if Coach K's playing of Vrank for a handful of minutes this year has any implications on his future at Duke. Clearly, it would have made sense from Duke's perspective to redshirt him this year. The only reasons I can see burning the redshirt option on a few minutes in a November game would seem to be that Vrank doesn't want to burn that free year should he decide to go elsewhere.

I don't see much reason to assume Robinson will see more playing time. He was not recruited by any of the major D-1 schools (possibly not recruited by ANY D-1 schools). I think it was a low-risk acquisition of a smart kid with a good family background to be a practice player who might somehow emerge as a prospect with late growth like his dad.

But I agree with what you're saying overall. Next year's team should be loaded, with or without Bolden. We will have a nice balance of youth and experience both inside and on the perimeter.

This year was just an unfortunate "miss" (if you can call a top-25 season a miss) in that the bigs we brought in weren't as ready as hoped, we had two (maybe 3) unanticipated exits, and we weren't able to recover from that late in the game.

A team of T. Jones, Sulaimon, Allen, M. Jones, Kennard, Ojeleye, Jefferson, Plumlee, Jeter, and Obi looked really good as of last November/December. We were able to replace Jones, Sulaimon, and Ojeleye with Thornton and Ingram, which was a step back in terms of experience and probably in terms of college-ready talent. And when you add in the lack of readiness of Jeter and Obi and the unexpected injury to Jefferson, it became a perfect storm.

[Kedsy]

Will the men's basketball staff learn from their 2015-16 failure to recruit enough bodies?


No one really wants to come to Duke to be an insurance policy in case of injury.

I think Matches has the answer.

The original question seems to take as granted that Duke can just go out and snag a top 10 player any time we want. Which simply isn't true. Fact is, we had plenty of "bodies." We just didn't have enough guys that Coach K felt comfortable playing big minutes after Amile's injury. Chase Jeter was ranked #14 in the class, so in order to remedy the "failure," we'd have had to have recruited an additional someone better than that. But what top ranked high school player is going to agree to stick around just in case one of Coach K's top 7 guys gets hurt?

So the original post is asking a flawed question. There was no "failure."

[CDu]

I think Matches has the answer.

The original question seems to take as granted that Duke can just go out and snag a top 10 player any time we want. Which simply isn't true. Fact is, we had plenty of "bodies." We just didn't have enough guys that Coach K felt comfortable playing big minutes after Amile's injury. Chase Jeter was ranked #14 in the class, so in order to remedy the "failure," we'd have had to have recruited an additional someone better than that. But what top ranked high school player is going to agree to stick around just in case one of Coach K's top 7 guys gets hurt?

So the original post is asking a flawed question. There was no "failure."

Well, to be fair, if Caleb Swanigan had come to Duke, he stood a good chance of being a regular in the rotation. Even before Jefferson went down. That would likely have cut into Plumlee's role and may have marginalized one of our guards a bit. Remember that Coach K was talking about Jeter as one of his 8 starters back in November/December, so he was envisioning playing 8. It's just that Jeter wasn't good enough.

We certainly recruited Swanigan heavily. We just didn't get him. Again, that's not a fault of the staff's lack of foresight, as we very much tried to address a potential need. It just didn't work out.

[chazz101s]

So the original post is asking a flawed question. There was no "failure."

Um, the question I asked was about scholarships: How many did we use this year? How many were not used?

Thanks for all the great info from various of the replies. It does make things easier to understand.

I stand by my use of the word "debacle." But it's just one word. Add in another word I used, "failure." Yeah, I won't eat that one, either.

It chapped me big-time to see players with hearts as big as MP3, Matt, and Grayson forced to deal with this season's perfect storm that swept in after Amile's fracture.

Can a staff as accomplished as Duke men's basketball prevent a perfect storm? Obviously, no. Prepare for one . . .? Use this experience to prepare better down the road? That's mainly what I was getting at. And I'm unaware of any of the staff mentioning anything like that. . . .

[madscavenger]

53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 180 Fr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

He's on the roster at goduke.com . i assume he's a walkon, but unlike Justin and Nick, i have not read a word here about him here.
Asked about him before, and received no input.

??????????????????????

[CDu]

53 Brennan Besser G 6-5 180 Fr. Chicago, Ill. (Latin School)

He's on the roster at goduke.com . i assume he's a walkon, but unlike Justin and Nick, i have not read a word here about him here.
Asked about him before, and received no input.

??????????????????????

He is a freshman walk on. There were a few posts about him back in the summer (there's a pic of the freshmen minus Thornton from back then). There really isn't much more to tell.

The only reason folks know about Robinson is because of his dad, which made him more news than he otherwise would have been. And Pagliuca is relevant because of his dad and because his brother was also a walk-on at Duke.

I don't mean to downplay the importance and contribution of walk-ons, but there really isn't much to say about Besser. He's not going to play more than end-of-game blowout minutes during his time at Duke.

[CDu]

Can a staff as accomplished as Duke men's basketball prevent a perfect storm? Obviously, no. Prepare for one . . .? Use this experience to prepare better down the road? That's mainly what I was getting at. And I'm unaware of any of the staff mentioning anything like that. . . .

I honestly don't see what more they could have done. They successfully recruited 3 bigs to compete with Jefferson and Plumlee for playing time. One was a solid D-1 player before coming to Duke and had a year of practice time before being eligible. Another was a top-20 recruit and McDonald's All-American. They attempted to recruit a third McDonald's All-American in Swanigan, but Swanigan chose to go elsewhere. We still have 5 bigs coming into the season. There's not much more you can do than that.

At guard (specifically PG), they thought as of Dec 2014 that they'd have Tyus Jones and Rasheed Sulaimon on this year's team. Then they dismissed Sulaimon for conduct reasons and Jones won us a championship. When Jones left, they convinced Thornton to come a year early, and added Ingram as well.

There really wasn't much more the team could do. It's unfortunate that Jefferson got hurt and that neither Jeter nor Obi was ready or able to step in to fill that void.

[BandAlum83]

If the kind of short-handedness suffered by this year's men's basketball team had happened in the profit (or non-profit) business world, I'm thinking that somebody (or somebodies) would be looking for new jobs.

Seriously????

This isn't the business world, it's college athletics. And while it is big business with regards to the revenue generated, it can't be operated as any other business can. WE can't sign kids to 10 day contracts, we can't put someone on the DL and call up someone from the AAA team.

Get real.

Failure??? Debacle??? I sooooo want to negative spork you, but won't. You can ask valid questions, but I will just not see things your way smh. :mad:

BTW, if this were a for profit sports franchise, it would be like trading away future draft choices or hot prospect farm hands to get a proven star midseason to go for and get a championship. Championships are so hard to come by. It was worth it. And a top 25 team the following year can never be termed a failure.

[Kedsy]

Um, the question I asked was about scholarships...

Your original post contained four question marks. In conventional English, such punctuation could be expected to identify four questions. I was referring to one of the questions that did not directly reference scholarships.


How many did we use this year? How many were not used?

You know Division I men's teams are allowed to use a maximum of 13 scholarships, right? If this was really your question, all you had to do was look at a roster (http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22727) and apply an easy subtraction problem. If your question actually was who on the roster is not a recruited scholarship player, others have answered correctly that Pagliuca, Besser, and Robinson are walk-ons (Robinson is a "preferred walk-on").

But I don't think those were really your questions:



I stand by my use of the word "debacle." But it's just one word. Add in another word I used, "failure." Yeah, I won't eat that one, either.

It chapped me big-time to see players with hearts as big as MP3, Matt, and Grayson forced to deal with this season's perfect storm that swept in after Amile's fracture.

Can a staff as accomplished as Duke men's basketball prevent a perfect storm? Obviously, no. Prepare for one . . .? Use this experience to prepare better down the road? That's mainly what I was getting at. And I'm unaware of any of the staff mentioning anything like that. . . .

So, as I said in my earlier post, you are asking a flawed question. Accumulating "bodies" isn't the answer -- we had at least three players with size enough to take Amile's position but Coach K didn't feel comfortable putting them in the rotation. Adding a top 10 or top 20 player isn't a practical solution. They don't grow on trees; they don't always want to come to Duke (e.g., recruited big man Caleb Swanigan), especially if they would be stepping into at best a 7th man role; and as it happens we did recruit such a player in Chase Jeter (#14 RSCI) who turned out not to be ready for a large role.

So what kind of "preparation" do you think the staff could have done to change this year's outcome? What lessons should they have learned?

[Reddevil]

Many on this board think Coach K and the staff did a remarkable job this year. I agree, and it is NOT over. I am honestly hoping for a sweet 16, and anything else is icing. If you take the journey every year, you will experience different things. Shallow roster? Stuff happens. We got to witness one of the guttiest Duke squads I've ever seen. These guys are a tough out, and every time they dig deep and win it is inspiring. I love this team. I loved last year's team. Different? Yeah. Dissapointing? Please! I have enjoyed it immensely. Rosters are fairly fluid. You do the best with what you have, and this edition has been outstanding in that regard. Sorry, I feel better now.

[heyman25]

I too have enjoyed this team.Grayson Allen had an outstanding year. I hope he stays one more season and we run the table for #6.Duke will be loaded with or without him.Kennard, Jeter and Thornton should have upside going forward.If we land Bolden, somebody will likely transfer. I am not keeping scholarship count.

If we can get to Sweet Sixteen that would be sweet.

We should have a rotation of 9 or 10 for 2017.
We need to destroy Notre Dame next year. They are 5 and 1 with Brey No mercy beatdown next season is overdue.

[dukelifer]

Um, the question I asked was about scholarships: How many did we use this year? How many were not used?

Thanks for all the great info from various of the replies. It does make things easier to understand.

I stand by my use of the word "debacle." But it's just one word. Add in another word I used, "failure." Yeah, I won't eat that one, either.

It chapped me big-time to see players with hearts as big as MP3, Matt, and Grayson forced to deal with this season's perfect storm that swept in after Amile's fracture.

Can a staff as accomplished as Duke men's basketball prevent a perfect storm? Obviously, no. Prepare for one . . .? Use this experience to prepare better down the road? That's mainly what I was getting at. And I'm unaware of any of the staff mentioning anything like that. . . .

What horrible situation did MP3, Matt and Grayson have to endure? They won 23 games and lost 10 (by 9, by 2 in OT, by 5, by 4 by 2, by 11, by 7, by 14, by 4 and by 5 in OT) - after winning a National Championship last year. Of their 10 losses, they had a decent shot to win 6. Now the Freshman did not get to a FF but most of them have a good shot next year and better if Grayson stays. No failures- no debacles. A team that played hard all year and was in most games- even without Amile. I would say most every player would love to suffer like Matt, Grayson and MP3 did this year and last.

[fraggler]

What horrible situation did MP3, Matt and Grayson have to endure? They won 23 games and lost 10 (by 9, by 2 in OT, by 5, by 4 by 2, by 11, by 7, by 14, by 4 and by 5 in OT) - after winning a National Championship last year. Of their 10 losses, they had a decent shot to win 6. Now the Freshman did not get to a FF but most of them have a good shot next year and better if Grayson stays. No failures- no debacles. A team that played hard all year and was in most games- even without Amile. I would say most every player would love to suffer like Matt, Grayson and MP3 did this year and last.

Season isn't over yet...

[dukelifer]

Season isn't over yet...

True enough.

[sagegrouse]

Um, the question I asked was about scholarships: How many did we use this year? How many were not used?

Thanks for all the great info from various of the replies. It does make things easier to understand.

I stand by my use of the word "debacle." But it's just one word. Add in another word I used, "failure." Yeah, I won't eat that one, either.

It chapped me big-time to see players with hearts as big as MP3, Matt, and Grayson forced to deal with this season's perfect storm that swept in after Amile's fracture.

Can a staff as accomplished as Duke men's basketball prevent a perfect storm? Obviously, no. Prepare for one . . .? Use this experience to prepare better down the road? That's mainly what I was getting at. And I'm unaware of any of the staff mentioning anything like that. . . .

Hey, Chazz, this is a Duke fan site and words matter.

I would offer up the point that it is really hard to plan and make rosters for a top-level college team. The problem is "the lags." You lose a player unexpectedly and it may have an immediate effect or, if at the end of the season, a team has 4-5 months before the beginning of the next school year to find a replacement.

On the other side of the calculus, it is about two years in the life cycle of recruiting a top-level high school player before he arrives on campus. It is 15-18 months to recruit a transfer, because of the need to sit out a year. It is only 3-5 months to recruit a graduate player, but there ain't a lot of these.

OK, you say, then let's stockpile a bunch of players. First, there are only 13 scholarships. Second, players are smart -- they can see whether there will be minutes available or not -- so the end of the bench is not likely to have good players.

In the face of these unmanageable circumstances, if there are truly unexpected losses, a team is really stuck. Last year Duke lost Sulaimon, Winslow, and Tyus Jones -- I would say -- "unexpectedly" with little real prospects of replacing any of them. We did get Derryck to come early, and that has worked out pretty darned well. But still, we are short a couple of players on the roster, and were highly susceptible to injuries.

"Debacle," you say. Those are fighting words. As is "failure." I hope you appreciate the visceral reaction a number of us will have to your post. You have only 12 posts on this site, and you probably haven't adapted to the mores here. But again, this is a Duke fan's site, and the players and team will be defended.

This Duke team has accomplished a lot this year, and I don't downgrade our chances in the NCAA's. Three-fourths of the ND game was the best basketball I have seen any team play this year.

Kindly,
Sage

[-jk]

Last year Duke lost Sulaimon, Winslow, and Tyus Jones -- I would say -- "unexpectedly" with little real prospects of replacing any of them.

We also lost Semi.

Tough to plan that transition to this year.

-jk

[MarkD83]

Season isn't over yet...

I second this ( or perhaps 3rd). The better question is what kind of magic did the coaching staff have in 1991 1992 2001 2010 2015 and the 19 years where duke won the acc tournament. There are a lot of teams who would take 23 10 right now

[Saratoga2]

At the risk of dangerous speculation, I do wonder if Coach K's playing of Vrank for a handful of minutes this year has any implications on his future at Duke. Clearly, it would have made sense from Duke's perspective to redshirt him this year. The only reasons I can see burning the redshirt option on a few minutes in a November game would seem to be that Vrank doesn't want to burn that free year should he decide to go elsewhere.

I don't see much reason to assume Robinson will see more playing time. He was not recruited by any of the major D-1 schools (possibly not recruited by ANY D-1 schools). I think it was a low-risk acquisition of a smart kid with a good family background to be a practice player who might somehow emerge as a prospect with late growth like his dad.

But I agree with what you're saying overall. Next year's team should be loaded, with or without Bolden. We will have a nice balance of youth and experience both inside and on the perimeter.

This year was just an unfortunate "miss" (if you can call a top-25 season a miss) in that the bigs we brought in weren't as ready as hoped, we had two (maybe 3) unanticipated exits, and we weren't able to recover from that late in the game.

A team of T. Jones, Sulaimon, Allen, M. Jones, Kennard, Ojeleye, Jefferson, Plumlee, Jeter, and Obi looked really good as of last November/December. We were able to replace Jones, Sulaimon, and Ojeleye with Thornton and Ingram, which was a step back in terms of experience and probably in terms of college-ready talent. And when you add in the lack of readiness of Jeter and Obi and the unexpected injury to Jefferson, it became a perfect storm.

For those people who think or imply that coach K will stick with a short rotation, even when loaded with talent and back up talent, one should remember he is and has been the Olympic coach and has dealt with tremendous talent and depth in that theater. Those players swear by him and want to play for him, so I think he can adjust and handle depth well.

As far as Vrank is concerned, one has to wonder why he has gotten virtually no PT. I guess we just have to standby on that one. There may be some unknown that would allow for an additional scholarship recruit.

I mentioned Justin since he is a good athlete although not an elite player coming into the team. Kids can develop and he is of a mid range size (probably smaller than the 6'8" listed for him based on the team photo where Luke appears to be similar in size. The fact is that Duke has recruited many McDonald's all American players and we have gotten into the OAD approach to remain competitive with the Kentucky's of this world. Teams like Virginia and ND have not been able to land such talent. Instead, they have gotten good quality kids who fit their system and kept the majority of them until they mature. Very hard to say which approach is best since we haven't done well in the ACC tournament but have recently won a national championship. There is an alternative and that is to have a mix of OAD's and good players who stay for long enough for their games to mature. Talent, depth and leadership all on one team would be hard to beat. It appears that coach K is headed in that direction after having some surprises this year. It fun to follow what has happened and try to understand the thinking behind it.

[Dukehky]

For those people who think or imply that coach K will stick with a short rotation, even when loaded with talent and back up talent, one should remember he is and has been the Olympic coach and has dealt with tremendous talent and depth in that theater. Those players swear by him and want to play for him, so I think he can adjust and handle depth well.

As far as Vrank is concerned, one has to wonder why he has gotten virtually no PT. I guess we just have to standby on that one. There may be some unknown that would allow for an additional scholarship recruit.

I mentioned Justin since he is a good athlete although not an elite player coming into the team. Kids can develop and he is of a mid range size (probably smaller than the 6'8" listed for him based on the team photo where Luke appears to be similar in size. The fact is that Duke has recruited many McDonald's all American players and we have gotten into the OAD approach to remain competitive with the Kentucky's of this world. Teams like Virginia and ND have not been able to land such talent. Instead, they have gotten good quality kids who fit their system and kept the majority of them until they mature. Very hard to say which approach is best since we haven't done well in the ACC tournament but have recently won a national championship. There is an alternative and that is to have a mix of OAD's and good players who stay for long enough for their games to mature. Talent, depth and leadership all on one team would be hard to beat. It appears that coach K is headed in that direction after having some surprises this year. It fun to follow what has happened and try to understand the thinking behind it.


That kid's absolute, best case scenario is Matt Christensen, and probably only when he's a senior. He's just not that talented. Justin Robinson, I don't see ever getting minutes. That's totally fine. Those two guys are what people on this board have been clamoring for for years. Let's get some 3 star guys and see how it goes. This is how it goes... We're going to love them because they're part of the team, we're going to support them, and we are going to wonder why they aren't getting minutes over a rotation player who is in a slump, and the reason will be because they aren't good enough to have earned K's confidence in meaningful games. Not bashing them, hope they shock me and prove me wrong, just the way it is. Every team needs guys to practice and sit on the bench, and Vrank and Justin are better at doing that than any rando that Nate James could find in Wilson.

[fraggler]

For those people who think or imply that coach K will stick with a short rotation, even when loaded with talent and back up talent, one should remember he is and has been the Olympic coach and has dealt with tremendous talent and depth in that theater. Those players swear by him and want to play for him, so I think he can adjust and handle depth well.

As far as Vrank is concerned, one has to wonder why he has gotten virtually no PT. I guess we just have to standby on that one. There may be some unknown that would allow for an additional scholarship recruit.

I mentioned Justin since he is a good athlete although not an elite player coming into the team. Kids can develop and he is of a mid range size (probably smaller than the 6'8" listed for him based on the team photo where Luke appears to be similar in size. The fact is that Duke has recruited many McDonald's all American players and we have gotten into the OAD approach to remain competitive with the Kentucky's of this world. Teams like Virginia and ND have not been able to land such talent. Instead, they have gotten good quality kids who fit their system and kept the majority of them until they mature. Very hard to say which approach is best since we haven't done well in the ACC tournament but have recently won a national championship. There is an alternative and that is to have a mix of OAD's and good players who stay for long enough for their games to mature. Talent, depth and leadership all on one team would be hard to beat. It appears that coach K is headed in that direction after having some surprises this year. It fun to follow what has happened and try to understand the thinking behind it.

Are you really comparing next year's talent level and depth to Team USA? I know you aren't saying we are as good, but the reason K can juggle 12 players there is because they are the elite of the elite and just about any combo is going to overwhelm the competition at this point. I am all for positivity, but I think you are severely overrating the talent and depth we have.

[Dukehky]

Are you really comparing next year's talent level and depth to Team USA? I know you aren't saying we are as good, but the reason K can juggle 12 players there is because they are the elite of the elite and just about any combo is going to overwhelm the competition at this point. I am all for positivity, but I think you are severely overrating the talent and depth we have.

To be fair, there are two players on next year's roster who could play for the national team in the future (Giles, Tatum), which is more than I think can be said of any team in college hoops over the last 20 years with the exception of maybe UK in 2010 with Cousins and Wall.

[uh_no]

Vrank and Justin are better at doing that than any rando that Nate James could find in Wilson.

He didn't look very hard, then...I was out there all the time struttin' my stuff.

[jipops]

If a debacle means still making the tournament, I'll take the debacle. There will come a day where we'll miss having such a debacle of a season.

[BandAlum83]

If a debacle means still making the tournament, I'll take the debacle. There MAY come a day where we'll miss having such a debacle of a season.

FIFY

[Doria]

If a debacle means still making the tournament, I'll take the debacle. There will come a day where we'll miss having such a debacle of a season.

Heck, I and I'm sure many others here remember such debacles... And even then, I was still a fan. Truthfully, no matter how far we go in the tourney, I will still love this team more than some others that were technically more "successful." But if your only measure of success is wins/losses, I guess you and I will just have to disagree.

Others have answered your (the OP) original questions, both stated and implied. In terms of the roster situation, what do you think, specifically the staff should and could have done differently? What do you think they should do differently, moving forward?

[KenTankerous]

Truthfully, no matter how far we go in the tourney, I will still love this team more than some others that were technically more "successful." But if your only measure of success is wins/losses, I guess you and I will just have to fight.

There, I fixed it for you.

Dear OP,

Have you actually watch any games or just caught highlights on Essentially Someone Playing Nintendo?

If Coach K, Jeff Capel, Nate James, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and this team dissappoint you with their "debacles" and "failures", maybe you should cue from Rasheed and take a Big TEN. This is DUKE. Yes, they play very good sports but they also attend real classes at one of the most prestigious learning institutes on the planet. There are not a lot of bodies with the brains to fit that bill. We got six this year? GREAT! And they won at Chapel Hill? FANTASTIC!

Yes, the ND losses hurt. Yet, they will be avenged sixfold, I trust.

But if every Duke basketball season is like this, with the heart and sweat, tearing up on fumes and fever, two point wins and four point losses, so be it! I'll still wear my Duke hoodie two blocks from the Yum! center every day the weather permits. Proudly.

Sincerely,

College Basketball Fan Who Loves Duke For All It Means, Not Just Wins.

[Saratoga2]

Are you really comparing next year's talent level and depth to Team USA? I know you aren't saying we are as good, but the reason K can juggle 12 players there is because they are the elite of the elite and just about any combo is going to overwhelm the competition at this point. I am all for positivity, but I think you are severely overrating the talent and depth we have.

What I am saying is that to develop a truly competitive team relative to the teams you play, you need not only high level talent but also mature players developed over the course of several seasons. Think of Quinn Cook. You also need to have the depth to be able to compete with the loss of a player through injury. Last time I checked, the Olympics are getting much more competitive, with a number teams featuring NBA quality players. You aren't implying any coach could take our Olympic talent and win the title are you? They want coach K because he is good with the players and uses our good talents to get the results. Before coach K took the reigns, we had lost in the Olympics so I don't buy your argument that any combo put on the floor could overwhelm the competition.

[dyedwab]

What I am saying is that to develop a truly competitive team relative to the teams you play, you need not only high level talent but also mature players developed over the course of several seasons. Think of Quinn Cook. You also need to have the depth to be able to compete with the loss of a player through injury. Last time I checked, the Olympics are getting much more competitive, with a number teams featuring NBA quality players. You aren't implying any coach could take our Olympic talent and win the title are you? They want coach K because he is good with the players and uses our good talents to get the results. Before coach K took the reigns, we had lost in the Olympics so I don't buy your argument that any combo put on the floor could overwhelm the competition.

Someone may have posted this article by John Gasaway earlier this season about "Category 5" rosters in college basketball which, I think, speaks directly to your point.

https://johngasaway.com/2015/10/19/the-category-5-roster/

Two key quotes

A category 5 roster is one that returns at least 40 percent of the previous season’s possession-minutes and adds a freshman class with at least 25 recruiting points.


There have been five such rosters in the one-and-done era. All five teams were NCAA tournament No. 1 seeds:

North Carolina in 2007 (Tyler Hansbrough and Ty Lawson: 31-7, Elite Eight)
Kentucky in 2010 (John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins: 35-3, Elite Eight)
Kentucky in 2012 (Anthony Davis and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist: 38-2, national title)
Kentucky in 2015 (Karl-Anthony Towns and Willie Cauley-Stein: 38-1, Final Four)
Duke in 2015 (Jahlil Okafor, Justise Winslow, and Tyus Jones: 35-5, national title)

and


A category 5 forecast for 2016
This won’t take long. There are no category 5 rosters this season. The freshman classes at Duke and Kentucky meet the criteria, but the levels of returning experience on these two rosters do not.

%RPMs Recruiting pts
Duke 2016 24 27.6
Kentucky 2016 16 26.9


I'm not gonna do the math, but I THINK that if we came close to a category 5 roster this year, we'll have one next year.

So, not trying to derail the thread, I think this speaks to what we we're doing well both this year and next year in terms of roster construction. Not a "debacle" or a "failure"

[chazz101s]

Dear OP,

Have you actually watch any games or just caught highlights on Essentially Someone Playing Nintendo?

If Coach K, Jeff Capel, Nate James, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and this team dissappoint you with their "debacles" and "failures", maybe you should cue from Rasheed and take a Big TEN. This is DUKE. Yes, they play very good sports but they also attend real classes at one of the most prestigious learning institutes on the planet. There are not a lot of bodies with the brains to fit that bill. We got six this year? GREAT! And they won at Chapel Hill? FANTASTIC!

Yes, the ND losses hurt. Yet, they will be avenged sixfold, I trust.

But if every Duke basketball season is like this, with the heart and sweat, tearing up on fumes and fever, two point wins and four point losses, so be it! I'll still wear my Duke hoodie two blocks from the Yum! center every day the weather permits. Proudly.

Sincerely,

College Basketball Fan Who Loves Duke For All It Means, Not Just Wins.

Dear Mr. Tankerous,

Surprise, but I attended that prestigious learning institute for 4 years. Even got a BA. (My first delirium over Duke basketball was Freddie Lind's 3-overtime miracle vs. Carolina. My first Cameron game turned out to be at the start of Vic Bubas' final season. [Look it up.] I saw Bucky Waters run off three high-school All Americans from the best frosh team ever (back when we had frosh teams [again, look it up]). I was a thousand miles away from Durham, but suffered through years of wandering in the wilderness, including Neill McGeachy's single season as coach.)

Them's my bona fides.

Hey, Mr. Grouse. Sorry that my 12 posts make it seem that I ain't from around these parts!

Points well-taken by many who took the time to reply to this thread. I appreciate the lessons.

Is season 2015-16 an example of glass half full or half empty? Last year, eight was enough. From my perspective, this year six was NOT enough. No way in the world.

After Amile's fracture, I wondered for months if all the team scholarships were being used. I wondered if the coaching staff might say, Dang, maybe playing a short bench has its risks and drawbacks.

Sorry that my honest questions (and, yes, sincere evals [debacle, failure]) stepped on so many toes. (This site is a wonderful wealth of Duke basketball expertise. It also follows a lock-step lots and lots of times. . . .)

Enough. Mea culpa, y'all.
Chaz

[KenTankerous]

Dear Mr. Tankerous,

Surprise, but I attended that prestigious learning institute for 4 years. Even got a BA.

Yeah, well then why didn't you correct my bad grammer and piss-poor usage?

Poser.

[NashvilleDevil]

Dear Mr. Tankerous,

Surprise, but I attended that prestigious learning institute for 4 years. Even got a BA. (My first delirium over Duke basketball was Freddie Lind's 3-overtime miracle vs. Carolina. My first Cameron game turned out to be at the start of Vic Bubas' final season. [Look it up.] I saw Bucky Waters run off three high-school All Americans from the best frosh team ever (back when we had frosh teams [again, look it up]). I was a thousand miles away from Durham, but suffered through years of wandering in the wilderness, including Neill McGeachy's single season as coach.)

Them's my bona fides.

Hey, Mr. Grouse. Sorry that my 12 posts make it seem that I ain't from around these parts!

Points well-taken by many who took the time to reply to this thread. I appreciate the lessons.

Is season 2015-16 an example of glass half full or half empty? Last year, eight was enough. From my perspective, this year six was NOT enough. No way in the world.

After Amile's fracture, I wondered for months if all the team scholarships were being used. I wondered if the coaching staff might say, Dang, maybe playing a short bench has its risks and drawbacks.

Sorry that my honest questions (and, yes, sincere evals [debacle, failure]) stepped on so many toes. (This site is a wonderful wealth of Duke basketball expertise. It also follows a lock-step lots and lots of times. . . .)

Enough. Mea culpa, y'all.
Chaz

One of my favorite moves is the "I've been called out for making a ridiculous post and now I'm going to state my bona fides."

I'm reminded that in a few weeks we will be celebrating the one year mark of Duke winning their 5th title. I've enjoyed this year and the incredible wins against UVA and UNC. This has not been a debacle or a failure and to say so, I think, is folly. As much as we want Duke to win the title every year it is not going to happen. So instead of lamenting that this season is a failure enjoy what this team has done with 6 players.

[sagegrouse]

Hey, Mr. Grouse. Sorry that my 12 posts make it seem that I ain't from around these parts!

Points well-taken by many who took the time to reply to this thread. I appreciate the lessons.

Is season 2015-16 an example of glass half full or half empty? Last year, eight was enough. From my perspective, this year six was NOT enough. No way in the world.

After Amile's fracture, I wondered for months if all the team scholarships were being used. I wondered if the coaching staff might say, Dang, maybe playing a short bench has its risks and drawbacks.

Sorry that my honest questions (and, yes, sincere evals [debacle, failure]) stepped on so many toes. (This site is a wonderful wealth of Duke basketball expertise. It also follows a lock-step lots and lots of times. . . .)

Enough. Mea culpa, y'all.
Chaz

You are entitled to your opinion, but this is a Duke fan site, and excessively critical comments about Duke players and teams will be challenged by a number of us. I should have added, "that doesn't make me right (or you right)." OTOH, if you had made the same comment after the 1995 season, which was the first year I had season tickets, I would have agreed with you. That year was a "debacle" and that team, despite spirited play by most of the players, was a "failure." This year is neither and has had some remarkable wins.

I thought I dealt adequately with the "roster management" in my earlier post -- this was an unmanageable problem. The four unanticipated roster losses before this year (Justise, Tyus, Rasheed and Semi) were impossible to replace and meant that our roster would be very thin. We were clearly vulnerable to and suffered from the loss of our best inside player (and a team captain) through injury. There was almost nothing the coaches could have done to prevent this situation, and I have no complaints about the performance of the individual players.

[MaxAMillion]

You are entitled to your opinion, but this is a Duke fan site, and excessively critical comments about Duke players and teams will be challenged by a number of us. I should have added, "that doesn't make me right (or you right)." OTOH, if you had made the same comment after the 1995 season, which was the first year I had season tickets, I would have agreed with you. That year was a "debacle" and that team, despite spirited play by most of the players, was a "failure." This year is neither and has had some remarkable wins.

I thought I dealt adequately with the "roster management" in my earlier post -- this was an unmanageable problem. The four unanticipated roster losses before this year (Justise, Tyus, Rasheed and Semi) were impossible to replace and meant that our roster would be very thin. We were clearly vulnerable to and suffered from the loss of our best inside player (and a team captain) through injury. There was almost nothing the coaches could have done to prevent this situation, and I have no complaints about the performance of the individual players.

Agree entirely...there is a sense of entitlement with a portion of the fan base which is regrettable. People really need to appreciate these last few years that K will give us because I can promise you that things will change when he leaves.

I think this is one of the staff's best coaching jobs. They have been playing with freshmen who are not ready to contribute consistently (Thornton and Jeter) and injuries (Jefferson and Jones). The players that are left still show tremendous fight despite getting everyone's best shot. I will especially miss Plumlee. He plays with maximum effort and intensity. Plumlee is a tremendous representative for Duke on and off the court. I wouldn't trade him or this team for anything.

[DukieTiger]

Someone may have posted this article by John Gasaway earlier this season about "Category 5" rosters in college basketball which, I think, speaks directly to your point.

https://johngasaway.com/2015/10/19/the-category-5-roster/


I'm not gonna do the math, but I THINK that if we came close to a category 5 roster this year, we'll have one next year.

So, not trying to derail the thread, I think this speaks to what we we're doing well both this year and next year in terms of roster construction. Not a "debacle" or a "failure"

I have Duke at about 30 recruiting points and returning over 60% returning possession minutes. That's with Grayson returning- but also only based on Amile only playing 9 games this year. Regardless, next year's team is pretty much guaranteed to be a Category 5 roster by a comfortable margin with both measures. I believe it will also be the first Category 5 roster where a 25+ point class joins forces with a significant group who has already been national champions.

So yeah. Roster management, and stuff.

[fraggler]

What I am saying is that to develop a truly competitive team relative to the teams you play, you need not only high level talent but also mature players developed over the course of several seasons. Think of Quinn Cook. You also need to have the depth to be able to compete with the loss of a player through injury. Last time I checked, the Olympics are getting much more competitive, with a number teams featuring NBA quality players. You aren't implying any coach could take our Olympic talent and win the title are you? They want coach K because he is good with the players and uses our good talents to get the results. Before coach K took the reigns, we had lost in the Olympics so I don't buy your argument that any combo put on the floor could overwhelm the competition.

When was the last time you checked? Teams are actually trending downward, with the familiar powers of Argentina, Brazil, Lithuania, and even Spain fading with no real powerhouse up and coming. France and Serbia are reasonably strong when they are healthy. Canada is kind of up and coming, but I can't think of a team outside of maybe Spain that could make us sweat right now and they couldn't make it to the Finals at FIBA in 2014. Even then, they are getting old enough that their experience playing together is not likely to be able to overcome the superior talent of Team USA. For sure, we can never take anything for granted as 2004 showed us, but right now, Team USA has an embarrassing number of really good players - team players at that, not just all-stars. I was exaggerating for effect by implying that anyone could coach them, but Team USA is in a really good place right now. But more to the point, Coach K doesn't even go 12 deep with Team USA even though the 12th man is a potential All-NBA'er. It just isn't practical to play that many in a game. At Duke, where the talent/experience/game-readiness drops off around the 7-8 man mark, and where really every game matters, Coach K isn't going to start playing 11 guys just because they have some potential to see who will develop or not that year. He wants to win each and every single game playing the right way. If someone can't perform to that level, they don't see the court. Practice is where the development will have to happen. I was frustrated that Jeter didn't get a little more burn during the season, but it seems whatever was happening behind the scenes was working as he has really come along the last few games.