MBB: ND 84 Duke 79 Post Game Thread

[Dev11]

On the plus side, Duke gets an extra day of rest before the NCAA tournament.

[gurufrisbee]

I know the game ended a while ago, but just to update those who turned it off when the clock ended.

Vrank has now fouled out and Obi has four fouls and will get his fifth before he finishes showering.

[Bob Green]

The "16 point lead curse" strikes again. We went stone cold from the floor with 10 minutes to play. Unbelievable.

[uh_no]

64 points with 11 minutes to go. that's not a lot of points in a lot of minutes.

[CDu]

Tough way to lose. Up 16 midway through the second, and then we just stopped making shots. Disappointing end to the ACC season. Hopefully the extra day of rest will be more valuable than the detriment of likely falling to a 5 seed.

[Karl Beem]

64 points with 11 minutes to go. that's not a lot of points in a lot of minutes.

No idea what you mean?:confused:

[KandG]

Microcosm of the season. Played out like so many of those second games during the ACC regular season on short rest after Amile got hurt.

Build a lead. Key player/players get into foul trouble. Team starts to tighten up or make mistakes in the last ten minutes. Make 1 FG in those same ten minutes. Miss crucial FTs that could have sustained the lead. Watch the youngest guys disappear or make freshman mistakes under pressure.

There were multiple turning points this afternoon, but it felt like the air really went out of Duke when Marshall missed four straight FTs (while the team still had a sizable lead) and wasn’t close on any of them. You could feel the confidence and verve drain from us and move toward ND. To the Irish's credit, their man to man defense got a lot tougher once we started to get exhausted and didn't attack as crisply as we did in the first 30 minutes.

I’ve enjoyed watching this team evolve through all the adversity, and I really hope there’s one more spurt of growth in them that gets them past the first weekend of the tournament. But after Amile’s injury, I was honestly happy to just have them get to the point of making the NCAAs.

Maybe this year’s group just happens to be that talented team that isn’t quite deep or experienced enough right now, and they were asked to do a little too much. Regardless, I’m proud of them no matter what happens. Here's hoping for one more run of glory, however long or brief it may be.

[CDu]

No idea what you mean?:confused:

It means we scored just 12 points in the final 16 minutes.

[azzefkram]

Arrrgh! Looks like the team ran out of gas in the end. An awful lot of shots hit the front of the rim towards the end and ND grabbed some offensive boards over guys glued to the floor. It's a shame because I'm sure the guys would have liked a third shot at Carolina. Rest up for the big dance guys.

[Billy Dat]

In 43 seconds, from 10:40 - 9:57, Chase Jeter picked up fouls 3 and 4 and MP3 picked up foul 4. The refs weren't great, but those guys need to understand the situation and just tall up and not foul. The game changed right there.

Man, that was BRUTAL. We haven't blown one like that in a while.

ND is our new nemesis, unbelievable for a defense as bad as theirs.

[ChillinDuke]

Man. That sucked.

We looked pretty good.

Then, suddenly, we looked pretty terrible.

If those weren't tired legs out there, I don't know what is. I know these kids are young and have plenty of energy. Heck, I even subscribe to that oft-used stance by K. But man oh man they certainly looked like they hit a wall. They stopped moving, the shots looked sloppy, they seemed to stop going for loose balls.

Disappointed. Thought we would live to fight another day.

See you next week, boys. Rest up.

- Chillin

[ALBlueDevil]

Taking the air out of the ball too soon is Basketballs version of the Prevent Defense in Football. Duke doesn't usually do well when they run the shot clock down and then throw up a prayer.

[pamtar]

Was not looking forward to playing UNC again so I guess that's a plus. Hopefully ND will win the tourney and give our NCAA resume an ever so slight boost. I really think we win going away if we didn't play yesterday. I'd love to see a true bracket as opposed to the double bye.

[Kfanarmy]

BI seems to have started refusing any contact...not sure if he's protecting his future or what, but rather than taking the ball in hard, he's trying to gently guide the ball up past defenders...he ain't hitting.

[vrob90]

I'm at a loss to explain this year. If someone had told me before it began that Grayson would play at the level he played, I would have predicted a really outstanding season.

[elvis14]

Very disappointing. The turning point was when we started killing clock. I'm actually a big fan of stall ball when we use it at the end of games but there was a point when we had a pretty big lead and we started stalling and it killed our rhythm on offense. Pulled the plug too early. I'm so disappointed because so many good things had happened, especially the quality minutes by Jeter and Obi. I really thought we were going to win without Ingram's offense today. At one point when we were up by a bunch I thought "wow, how much would we be up by if Luke or Derryck could hit a 3 or if Brandon could hit that short jumper in the lane". Little did I know that we would truly need those points.

Oh well, on the bright side we get some more rest before the NCAAT. On the downside, I worried about this team's success in the tournament because we seem unable to put teams away in the second half. 16 today, 9 yesterday, other games same thing.

[Selover]

I loved the way the staff (mainly K) picked up Grayson after he fouled out. Gosh, being a Duke fan is great even when we lose.

[ChillinDuke]

In 43 seconds, from 10:40 - 9:57, Chase Jeter picked up fouls 3 and 4 and MP3 picked up foul 4. The refs weren't great, but those guys need to understand the situation and just tall up and not foul. The game changed right there.

Man, that was BRUTAL. We haven't blown one like that in a while.

ND is our new nemesis, unbelievable for a defense as bad as theirs.

They really are, aren't they?

Which kinda sucks. I mean I don't really want to hate Notre Dame. They seem like a class act - although I don't like Colson at all and Auguste is bit irritating at times. But all in all, I like Notre Dame. So it's particularly irritating that they consistently seem to get in our way.

- Chillin

[El_Diablo]

On the plus side, at least we don't give UNC the chance to smoke us tomorrow.

See you next year, Luke Maye and Co.

[CameronDuke]

I never put too much stock in the old "they won't have legs, they'll be fatigued" argument this time of the year. These kids were recruited to play basketball. They play as much and as hard or harder on the playground growing up or in AAU tournaments (sometimes several games per day). We saw today that Duke simply ran out of gas, though. Sad but true. Foul trouble didn't help either. Once Duke got up 16, their legs just turned to flat tires. They tried hard but their jump shots particularly were affected. The ball just started looking differently when it was released on jump shots and when it hit the rim. No lift on jump shots. Luke had a tough day - 2-14. Also, 0-4 from the line for Marshall. One has to wonder if he isn't wearing the mask, can he at least hit one? If he could have, Duke is playing UNC tomorrow in the ACC semifinals.

Such a frustrating loss but the kids battled. Battling doesn't always mean you're going to win but I will say they battled. I'm afraid fatigue may be a bigger issue next week than I thought, though. It just really, REALLY, affected our jump shots today. They lightbulb finally came on for me and I could see first hand the affect it has on our jumpers.

Onto the NCAAs. Duke is still as dangerous a team as anyone. If we win just one game this year in the NCAAs, I'll be very happy and proud of Duke. Tough year so far but this is why we play, for an opportunity at a national championship. We are just 6 wins away from winning it all. We have the tools to do it and let's be honest, I'll be glued to the TV next week meticulously scrutinizing every Duke play!

[summerwind03]

I loved the way the staff (mainly K) picked up Grayson after he fouled out. Gosh, being a Duke fan is great even when we lose.

In what way? I didn't see that.

[Doria]

We had a lot of positives in that game--bench production (for us, anyway), rebounding, and a willingness to compete even when they were clearly running on fumes with 8 minutes to go. Just didn't have the horses today. I felt pretty good about our chances to hit the last shot in regulation, but once that didn't happen, I wasn't terribly optimistic.

Grayson looked pretty devastated (loved Coach K hugging him). While I hate to see our guys looking like that, to me it's preferable to seeing teams who are losing, and their players look like they don't care at all. It was a tough game for him with all the "non fouls," but even though he wasn't able to get free (literally) a lot in the second half, he kept working hard. I appreciated Auguste's apparently friendly comment to him in the handshake line, too.

That said, %#^% Colson! While I hope he has a career game tomorrow, I just can't stand him. It's getting to be a really irrational dislike for me, second only to my despising of Miami's McClellan.

[dukelifer]

Tough way to lose. Up 16 midway through the second, and then we just stopped making shots. Disappointing end to the ACC season. Hopefully the extra day of rest will be more valuable than the detriment of likely falling to a 5 seed.

Yep- 5 seed. Hopefully they can get a couple of wins and experience for next year. Nice game by Chase. The rest of the Freshman were Freshman today including Ingram. He needed to be an all star and he was not. Ingram was 5-16 and Kennard 2-14. Duke shot 34% for the game and still only lost by 5. Ingram will have a lot of tough nights next year- playing back to backs like in this tourney. Foul trouble was the difference. Duke started to play not to lose or foul and ND made a big and stole all the momentum. Team will learn from this. Last year - Duke had a similar fate and turned it into a nice run. We will see. Sweet 16 is the goal- anything else a bonus.

[WakeDevil]

It spared us the indignity of being dragged up and down the court tomorrow night. I will give Plumlee credit for hitting the rim on all his free throws.

One win is the ceiling in the event next week.

It will not bother me if UNC-Cheat wins tomorrow night against the traitor.

[75Crazie]

Was not looking forward to playing UNC again so I guess that's a plus. Hopefully ND will win the tourney and give our NCAA resume an ever so slight boost.
No no no no no no no. I'll root for them tomorrow, of course ... but against anybody else, forget it. Until they decide to become a true conference school (i.e. join in football) they will continue to be a faux conference team to me. Notre Dame has always been second on my hate list, but they continue to do their best to close the gap with first.

[Coballs]

Now that was painful. Anyone who was working this afternoon and didn't get to witness this epic collapse should consider themselves extremely fortunate.

[Billy Dat]

Was anyone else screaming at the screen, when MP3 stepped to the line in the 2nd half, "TAKE OFF THE MASK!!!!"

[dukelifer]

Was not looking forward to playing UNC again so I guess that's a plus. Hopefully ND will win the tourney and give our NCAA resume an ever so slight boost. I really think we win going away if we didn't play yesterday. I'd love to see a true bracket as opposed to the double bye.

Our seed is set in stone now.

[CameronDuke]

The way Obi played today left me scratching my head asking myself why hasn't he cracked the rotation more. Jeter is improving but Obi hasn't gotten the same opportunity. Obi had 4 rebounds in 6 minutes! Those are Charles Barkley numbers, and his legs are some of the freshest on the team. If Duke wants to make a run in the NCAAs, they need Obi to give Marshall a rest here and there.

[Namtilal]

It was not an issue of just not making shots. It was basketball IQ. ND ratcheted up the defensive intensity, and instead of us moving and cutting and playing team offense, we stood still and watched one guy attack a double or triple team. On D, only Marshall blocks out. Without him it was everyone going for impossible blocks and giving up easy putbacks. We were way ahead on rebounds but I seriously think ND got 20 of the last 25 rebounds.

When the defense we face is over aggressive and risks fouling, we seem to be more passive on offense instead of using movement and cuts to make them pay.

[Doria]

Now that was painful. Anyone who was working this afternoon and didn't get to witness this epic collapse should consider themselves extremely fortunate.

This was not an epic collapse. We lost by what four or five points in OT?! I have no idea where you're getting this. We've been short-handed all season, so I can't believe you're only just now tuning in to see us running out of gas at the end of an OT game on the heels of a toughly contested game yesterday.

Notre Dame's been slumping lately, but they're a legit team. Maybe you don't watch a lot of their games, but they're a well coached team, whose players are also competitive and play with heart.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I assume you're just disappointed like the rest of us, but save the melodrama.

[Karl Beem]

Was anyone else screaming at the screen, when MP3 stepped to the line in the 2nd half, "TAKE OFF THE MASK!!!!"
Yes.

[Bob Green]

Our seed is set in stone now.

My assumption is we will be a 5 seed, which means we face a 4 seed in the 2nd Round (assuming we beat the 12 seed in 1st Round).

[Bluegrassdevil1]

I thought last season's team won the national championship because they were so gritty, mentally tough, and the "good" version of being a S.O.B., and I genuinely think that this season's group has lost games, fell behind, and struggled, but have never surrendered, given up, or submitted to "struggling" for the very same reasons that '14-'15 succeeded.

This group began with ten guys, then lost their leader, saw three players profoundly struggle, a star become a national villain, and found themselves in numerous down to the wire battles, yet, and most importantly, they keep swimming.

The '15-'16 group reminds me of the scene in Raging Bull , where Sugar Ray Robinson absolutely pummels Jake LaMotta, and while Robinson wins the fight, the LaMotta character stands tall, still on his feet, staring back at Robinson, hauntingly pledging, "Hey, Ray, I never went down, man! You never got me down, Ray! You hear me, you never got me down."

I love the 2015 national title team, but I am in awe of the 2016 fighters.

[SoCalDukeFan]

We missed some free throws.

With a 16 point lead and a not deep tired team in foul trouble I think every coach (except maybe a Paul Westhead) goes to stall ball. It clearly broke our mo and ND got the mo.

We get to rest for the tournament. I am not sure how important seeding is this year as there does not seem to be dominant teams. Jeter looks better each game. Still lots to look forward to this year.

SoCal

[flyingdutchdevil]

It was not an issue of just not making shots. It was basketball IQ. ND ratcheted up the defensive intensity, and instead of us moving and cutting and playing team offense, we stood still and watched one guy attack a double or triple team. On D, only Marshall blocks out. Without him it was everyone going for impossible blocks and giving up easy putbacks. We were way ahead on rebounds but I seriously think ND got 20 of the last 25 rebounds.

When the defense we face is over aggressive and risks fouling, we seem to be more passive on offense instead of using movement and cuts to make them pay.

This is how I saw it too. Really poor IQ basketball after we were up 16. I also think it's a result of never being that high up against a really good opponent.

Credit goes to ND. That was one helluva come back.

Brey has Coach K's number. Hope that trend changes soon.

[Devilwin]

Go Carolina.. Yeah, pulling for them against the smug bunch from ND. Brey told the ref that K was 'Always talking". Traitor. Ingrate. I hope UNC beats them into the ground.
We win one, then lose. But next season we put a beast on the floor. And football will be here before you know it. This team underachieved in my opinion. The loss of Amille was devastating too, but so many times we looked young, and not talking just about the freshmen. We made several errors today, and it cost us.

[Tjenkins]

Now that was painful. Anyone who was working this afternoon and didn't get to witness this epic collapse should consider themselves extremely fortunate.

Glad I was working and not screaming at the TV. Last time Duke lost 10 or more games was 2007. The season didn't end well that year.

[Bob Green]

This was not an epic collapse...

I don't mean to be harsh, and I assume you're just disappointed like the rest of us, but save the melodrama.

I have to disagree. We scored six points in the last 10+ minutes of regulation blowing a 16 point lead. That's epic in my book.

[Billy Dat]

Yes.

And someone else said, and I agree, "Just for the first shot". We SO needed to stop the bleeding at that point, and those 4 straight misses combined with the fact that MP3, Jeter and Obi all had 4 fouls was like the defibrillator for ND. They went into attack mode in a big way. We had so many good looks between 10 -5 minutes left to play, clean looks from 3, etc. I truly believe that if any of those had gone down, we hold on. When BI hit that big one to put us back up with 2:17 to go, I actually thought that might be enough. Luke got a great look at that last regulation shot, too. Pain!

[jv001]

The team shot 34.2% and our guards were really off their games. Grayson= 7/21, Kennard=2/14, Thornton= 2/6. Matt shot the ball well going 5-10 with 3-5 on three pointers. Foul trouble really hurt our momentum that we had built and played a big part in the loss. I have to admit that Mike Brey is a very good coach. He was in the game from start to finish and kept his guys from not giving up. Our youth really showed today. That shows how much we really miss Amile. Too bad we wasted good efforts from Jeter and Obi. They really picked up the slack in the first half. Well it's now time for the NCAAT. I'm hoping for a good bracket. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Go Carolina.. Yeah, pulling for them against the smug bunch from ND. Brey told the ref that K was 'Always talking". Traitor. Ingrate. I hope UNC beats them into the ground.
We win one, then lose. But next season we put a beast on the floor. And football will be here before you know it. This team underachieved in my opinion. The loss of Amille was devastating too, but so many times we looked young, and not talking just about the freshmen. We made several errors today, and it cost us.

There is so much wrong with this post.

1) Never "Go Carolina". That is blasphemy.
2) ND is smug. Maybe a little too smug. But Colson nor Augustine didn't bother me that much
3) Could not disagree more about Brey. Do you want him to bend over and let Coach K win every time? Would that make him less of a "traitor"? Was Coach K a traitor when he beat Knight? I'd hope Coach K is proud of Brey right now, unlike the way Knight wasn't after Coach K beat his team.
4) I don't think this team underachieved at all. I think a lot of elements (Amile's injury, Jeter's slower than expected development, Obi's complete lack of participation) really hurt this team in ways that couldn't be forecasted.

[Saratoga2]

Must be very disappointing for the kids and coaching staff. Being 16 up and dominating the game we suddenly couldn't score and weren't all the sharp on offense. What went wrong?

1. ND's aggressive MTM kept us from getting good mid range and close in shots. The refs were allowing physical play and no one could finish.
2. Our 3 point shooting went south, probably due to fatigue and perhaps some negative thinking
3. Luke's offensive side was missing throughout. He still passed well but was pressured into one or two turnovers
4. Our foul shooting for the critical period when we lost the lead was bad. Marshall missed all 4 and Brandon missed one in that run
5. Due to foul trouble on our bigs (I thought 1 on Marshall and 1 on Chase were questionable) their defense wasn't as aggressive
6. Our rebounding disappeared in that period

The good news is we got good minutes from both Chase and Sean. Maybe Obi can give us additional minutes going forward. We also applied really good defensive pressure in the first half and our offense clicked well enough in that period to build a big lead. Lets hope the team can get out of the first weekend in the NCAA's.

[CoBlueDevil]

That was one hell of a frustrating game!!! We were playing so well (up 64-48) with about 10 left, then everything started to fall apart. Really what pisses me off most is that it was Notre Dame. I'm just going to be honest but I really, really, dislike them (putting it lightly). Something about them just rubs me the wrong way. Still love this team and our heart but really hated watching how this game finished.

[azzefkram]

There were multiple turning points this afternoon, but it felt like the air really went out of Duke when Marshall missed four straight FTs (while the team still had a sizable lead) and wasn’t close on any of them. You could feel the confidence and verve drain from us and move toward ND. To the Irish's credit, their man to man defense got a lot tougher once we started to get exhausted and didn't attack as crisply as we did in the first 30 minutes.

Yeah MPIII's missed free throws did us in and not BI, GA and LK going 3/16 after our 16pt lead (5/21 in the second half). It doesn't make sense to credit 4 missed free throws and not the masonry exhibition the team put on. BI and GA are our best scorers and LK is among them when he's on. Matt can have big games but that's more the exception than the rule and not really his game. If BI, GA and LK run out of gas, we are in big trouble.

[KandG]

Glad I was working and not screaming at the TV. Last time Duke lost 10 or more games was 2007. The season didn't end well that year.

History may judge this year's group as harshly as the 2007 team, especially if the season ends similarly with a VCU-type first game loss, but I personally like this year's team a lot more and will view them more favorably. In the recent one and done era, several teams haven't even made the tournament the year after a championship and a whole bunch of defections.

On top of the radical roster turnover, we had a crucial injury, a punishing schedule in one of the country's best conferences, and dramatic rules changes that exploited our lack of depth even more drastically. All things considered, despite several difficult losses, I thought the team competed admirably in almost every game and demonstrated great chemistry and fight.

I just didn't feel the same way about the 2007 team, though I recall that group, especially DeMarcus Nelson, looking as spent as this team did by the time it ended.

[smythe13]

Was anyone else screaming at the screen, when MP3 stepped to the line in the 2nd half, "TAKE OFF THE MASK!!!!"

YES!!!!

[KandG]

Yeah MPIII's missed free throws did us in and not BI, GA and LK going 3/16 after our 16pt lead (5/21 in the second half). It doesn't make sense to credit 4 missed free throws and not the masonry exhibition the team put on. BI and GA are our best scorers and LK is among them when he's on. Matt can have big games but that's more the exception than the rule and not really his game. If BI, GA and LK run out of gas, we are in big trouble.

Never said the four missed free throws were solely to blame. "Turning point" just describes an event that (in my interpretation) represents an inflection point in the game, not a comprehensive accounting of everything that went wrong for Duke and contributed to the loss.

[sagegrouse]

The way Obi played today left me scratching my head asking myself why hasn't he cracked the rotation more. Jeter is improving but Obi hasn't gotten the same opportunity. Obi had 4 rebounds in 6 minutes! Those are Charles Barkley numbers, and his legs are some of the freshest on the team. If Duke wants to make a run in the NCAAs, they need Obi to give Marshall a rest here and there.

Use your roster! Jeter and Obi today had nine points and ten rebounds in 20 minutes. Why has Sean sat on the bench since January 23, and why has Chase been used only in emergencies? Both were more than a match for the Notre Dame inside players. The Duke world wants to know!

[Doria]

I have to disagree. We scored six points in the last 10+ minutes of regulation blowing a 16 point lead. That's epic in my book.

I can see your point, but this wasn't the first long and unfortunate stretch (like 8-10 mins.) that we've gone essentially scoreless in the second half of games when we just seem to run out of gas. We've been able to pull some of those out, but I just didn't feel like I was seeing something new and inexplicable.

Notre Dame played uncharastically poorly in terms of TO's, but they made an adjustment. I can see arguing that we needed to counter their adjustment, but we were leaving a lot of shots well short; it looked to me like we had tired legs. I'm not excusing our performance because we were tired, but it's hard not to stall when you can't make any shots over what you rightly point out is a long period of time.

I was, of course, disappointed with the loss and how it happened, but am I shocked, given the evidence of our other games this season? Not really. Just my interpretation and reaction.

[AvlDukie]

I loved the way the staff (mainly K) picked up Grayson after he fouled out. Gosh, being a Duke fan is great even when we lose.

Amen, and again amen..
This team has fought as hard all year long as any Duke team ever has, and no one exemplifies that heart and toughness more than Grayson. Hurt me a little bit to see the pain on his face there at the end.
But - I am very happy he is on our team, and I am as proud as ever to call myself a DUKE fan!

[Wahoo2000]

Use your roster! Jeter and Obi today had nine points and ten rebounds in 20 minutes. Why has Sean sat on the bench since January 23, and why has Chase been used only in emergencies? Both were more than a match for the Notre Dame inside players. The Duke world wants to know!

If Obi hasn't been secretly injured all year, I have NO idea why you guys didn't use him for at least 5-8 mpg just to keep a little wear and tear off of Plumlee and Ingrahm. There's a HUGE difference between having to average 31-32 mpg and 36-37 mpg over the course of a (nearly) full season. I'm starting to think K just really prefers a 7 man rotation - even with the 7th guy only getting 10-15 mpg. Look at how good Allen is and he barely touched the floor last year. I'm aware that Jones and Cook were better, but did they really need to play 35+ in big games?

[Bob Green]

...but we were leaving a lot of shots well short; it looked to me like we had tired legs. I'm not excusing our performance because we were tired, but it's hard not to stall when you can't make any shots over what you rightly point out is a long period of time.

We certainly had tired legs, you'll get no argument from me on that point. But we missed inside as well as outside, and from the free throw line. All we needed was a basket here and there, but we couldn't produce one. As much as tired legs contributed, I have to believe the team tighten up a bit, the pressure got to them so freshmen played like freshmen instead of "almost" sophomores.

Just my opinion and I acknowledge your opinion is reasonable.

[Devilwin]

There is so much wrong with this post.

1) Never "Go Carolina". That is blasphemy.
2) ND is smug. Maybe a little too smug. But Colson nor Augustine didn't bother me that much
3) Could not disagree more about Brey. Do you want him to bend over and let Coach K win every time? Would that make him less of a "traitor"? Was Coach K a traitor when he beat Knight? I'd hope Coach K is proud of Brey right now, unlike the way Knight wasn't after Coach K beat his team.
4) I don't think this team underachieved at all. I think a lot of elements (Amile's injury, Jeter's slower than expected development, Obi's complete lack of participation) really hurt this team in ways that couldn't be forecasted.

Brey made a snide remark to the ref about Coach K, saying, "He's always talking!" Smug, yes.

[luburch]

Gosh, that's a rough way to lose a game. Wish Jeter would have come back in for MP3 a little earlier.

Could you imagine if Grayson carried himself the way Auguste does? Twitter/ESPN/Facebook would likely explode.

[dukelifer]

History may judge this year's group as harshly as the 2007 team, especially if the season ends similarly with a VCU-type first game loss, but I personally like this year's team a lot more and will view them more favorably. In the recent one and done era, several teams haven't even made the tournament the year after a championship and a whole bunch of defections.

On top of the radical roster turnover, we had a crucial injury, a punishing schedule in one of the country's best conferences, and dramatic rules changes that exploited our lack of depth even more drastically. All things considered, despite several difficult losses, I thought the team competed admirably in almost every game and demonstrated great chemistry and fight.

I just didn't feel the same way about the 2007 team, though I recall that group, especially DeMarcus Nelson, looking as spent as this team did by the time it ended.

Interesting. I was not aware that history judged each Duke team. Duke is a program designed to win championships. Sometimes it takes time. This was a rebuilding year. Players have learned valuable lessons that should help next year or after that. This team fought hard and was undermanned with regard to experience. Duke had a lot of Freshman on the floor today. The program is building for next year. I will watch the NC game from last year again to get through the weekend. We have been very lucky fans.

[stingy]

It might not have mattered, but we were only down 3 with 38 seconds left in OT, their ball. We fouled when we could've tried to play good defense and get it back with 8 seconds to tie. Any second guessing there?

[azzefkram]

I have never been a fan of putting a player with 2 fouls back in during the first half. I would have rather run Chase, Sean and Vrank until halftime. It seems like such a high risk/low reward play.

[Coballs]

This was not an epic collapse. We lost by what four or five points in OT?! I have no idea where you're getting this. We've been short-handed all season, so I can't believe you're only just now tuning in to see us running out of gas at the end of an OT game on the heels of a toughly contested game yesterday.

Notre Dame's been slumping lately, but they're a legit team. Maybe you don't watch a lot of their games, but they're a well coached team, whose players are also competitive and play with heart.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I assume you're just disappointed like the rest of us, but save the melodrama.

I completely disagree and I'm not trying to be melodramatic. Duke ran out of steam in OT, but the game should have never gotten to that point. We weren't undermanned today when we got contributions from 8 players. And we didn't look the least bit fatigued when we surged to a 16 point lead. This game was lost because of all the missed shots, missed FTs and sloppiness with the ball at the point when this game should have been put away.

[jimsumner]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

[LastRowFan]

If Obi hasn't been secretly injured all year, I have NO idea why you guys didn't use him for at least 5-8 mpg just to keep a little wear and tear off of Plumlee and Ingrahm. There's a HUGE difference between having to average 31-32 mpg and 36-37 mpg over the course of a (nearly) full season. I'm starting to think K just really prefers a 7 man rotation - even with the 7th guy only getting 10-15 mpg. Look at how good Allen is and he barely touched the floor last year. I'm aware that Jones and Cook were better, but did they really need to play 35+ in big games?

Coach K talked about Obi during the post-game press conference today saying that Obi has been struggling with bad legs (knees?) and hasn't been able to contribute much, but is doing better now and can now compete for minutes.

[BoiseDevil]

Use your roster! Jeter and Obi today had nine points and ten rebounds in 20 minutes. Why has Sean sat on the bench since January 23, and why has Chase been used only in emergencies? Both were more than a match for the Notre Dame inside players. The Duke world wants to know!

I'm part of the Duke world and I believe the answer is obvious:

1- Jeter is getting more burn as his practice and game play improves
2- up to this point Obi has been awful in practice and his early season game time was awful as well

Obi would be exposed for the player he is now (not that he can't improve) if given 10+ minutes. Do you really think K is sitting him for any other reason than he's not ready?

Jeter, I think is figuring things out. In a normal year, he'd not see many minutes, but due to a thin bench, he's growing confidence in game situations. I think today was his best game yet. I think he has a chance to play a big role in the tourney. In the long view, Jeter benefitted from Amile's injury and both this year's team (tourney) and next year's teams will reap the benefits.

[timmy c]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

It's OVER!. The sky is falling! :rolleyes::cool::rolleyes:

Seriously, this team won't be asked to play two games in two days on their way to back-to-back championships.
Next play... Bring on the NCAA tourney!

[Acymetric]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

My guess: People see the tournament as a separate component from conference play and conference tournaments (i.e. "the season is over, on to the tournament").

[superdave]

Duke has really tired legs. You could see it in Brandon yesterday when he had 19 first half points and only 3 in the second. He was passing up open looks and really deferring. He looked gassed.

Again today, the Duke guys got a lead, got comfortable then just gave up on driving the ball. They had no lift in their legs when they did get into the lane. It was almost as if Notre Dame could sense how tired Duke was and turned on the D.

It is hard to be optimistic about a 5-seed with tired legs. But let's see who we draw and go from there. The talent is there. The field is weak.

Go Duke!

[OZ]

Coach K talked about Obi during the post-game press conference today saying that Obi has been struggling with bad legs (knees?) and hasn't been able to contribute much, but is doing better now and can now compete for minutes.


This is the reason I tend not to be too critical of our team or an individual player. When I have, I later learn that I didn't know what the he!! I was talking about. This team ran out of gas. Fatigue=tired legs=tired minds=tired decisions=6 points last ten minutes.
I have watched every game this team has played this year; and it has been rare when I left thinking, they didn't leave everything on the court. This game was no exception to that. I am proud of this bunch of no quit gutsy guys.

[Doria]

And if it comes down to a game with an equally tired team (e.g., a second game of the two), I think it's to our advantage, since we've had to manage fatigue all season and to learn to play through it as best we can.

That isn't to say I see us winning it all this year, but I think the second weekend would absolutely be an accomplishment for this group.

[WakeDevil]

Mike Brey was a UNC fan last Saturday. Think Rick Pitino and Kentucky fans. I hope they get slaughtered tomorrow.

[Kfanarmy]

The guys collectively flinched today. MP3s FT shooting is certainly excusable because of the mask, but I really believe they took their collective foot off the gas on both ends of the floor, ND got a little Mo, and they didn't react with intensity. They tried to finesse their way to the finish line...except for GA. IMO

[freshmanjs]

I can see your point, but this wasn't the first long and unfortunate stretch (like 8-10 mins.) that we've gone essentially scoreless in the second half of games when we just seem to run out of gas. We've been able to pull some of those out, but I just didn't feel like I was seeing something new and inexplicable.

Notre Dame played uncharastically poorly in terms of TO's, but they made an adjustment. I can see arguing that we needed to counter their adjustment, but we were leaving a lot of shots well short; it looked to me like we had tired legs. I'm not excusing our performance because we were tired, but it's hard not to stall when you can't make any shots over what you rightly point out is a long period of time.

I was, of course, disappointed with the loss and how it happened, but am I shocked, given the evidence of our other games this season? Not really. Just my interpretation and reaction.

This was the biggest lead we've blown in almost a decade. Debate the word "epic" if you want, but it's not a common occurrence at all.

[MaxAMillion]

Mike Brey was a UNC fan last Saturday. Think Rick Pitino and Kentucky fans. I hope they get slaughtered tomorrow.

He should have wanted UNC to win. It would help his team. I wouldn't pull for the holes if they played China.

[Kfanarmy]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

Its not over, but it isn't looking good.
Playing w 7 players.
One has a sprained shoulder and ankle.
One just got handed the challenge of shooting with a mask due to a broken nose.
One can't draw a common foul unless someone commits a flagrant worthy act.
One seems to be avoiding contact, killing his inside shooting.
One's shooting runs hot and cold.
And one is a very young freshman.

They are injured and worn down. Wins in the NCAA tourney will be hard to come by.

[Billy Dat]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5144729

Definitely check out the last 3-4 minutes of K's presser for his impassioned defense and celebration of Grayson who is sitting right next to him.

[fuse]

The "16 point lead curse" strikes again. We went stone cold from the floor with 10 minutes to play. Unbelievable.

I always thought it was 17... :-)

[jseelke]

Very disappointing. The turning point was when we started killing clock. I'm actually a big fan of stall ball when we use it at the end of games but there was a point when we had a pretty big lead and we started stalling and it killed our rhythm on offense. Pulled the plug too early. I'm so disappointed because so many good things had happened, especially the quality minutes by Jeter and Obi. I really thought we were going to win without Ingram's offense today. At one point when we were up by a bunch I thought "wow, how much would we be up by if Luke or Derryck could hit a 3 or if Brandon could hit that short jumper in the lane". Little did I know that we would truly need those points.

Oh well, on the bright side we get some more rest before the NCAAT. On the downside, I worried about this team's success in the tournament because we seem unable to put teams away in the second half. 16 today, 9 yesterday, other games same thing.

I completely agree...was there in person and the guy next time, a UVA fan, said that when we were up 16 that we had it made...all we had to do was trade shots with ND and we would be fine...then we went cold. I also agree with the stall ball tactic - we are more of a team that works well passing it around and then hitting a bit shot.

Plumlee's missed free throws hurt...imagine if Matt Jones' hadn't broken his nose...I too agree that Jeter and Obi provided some solid minutes, particularly at the end of the first half.

Hoping that the extra rest helps...and thankful that in the tournament we will have a day in between games as opposed to back to back...

[jipops]

Duke has shot above 40% twice since the second Louisville game. This was a team hovering around the top 3 in offensive efficiency. Safe to say we haven't been the same team since. I have a hard time not being convinced that different levels of exhaustion have hit this crew. They have just seemed spent after going on that brilliant run to earn a spot in the tournament. I think this team has given as much as anybody could possibly ask for. Someone upthread mentioned this team as "underachieving". This lacks perspective.

I'm hopeful for a couple of wins next week. One thing I feel that can be counted on from this group is a full effort.

[Bob Green]

I always thought it was 17... :-)

16...17...whatever. To tell the truth I can't remember.

[MCFinARL]

Use your roster! Jeter and Obi today had nine points and ten rebounds in 20 minutes. Why has Sean sat on the bench since January 23, and why has Chase been used only in emergencies? Both were more than a match for the Notre Dame inside players. The Duke world wants to know!

I thought Obi could have helped a lot late in the game when Notre Dame was scoring after getting two or three offensive rebounds under the basket, and our players hesitated to be too aggressive for fear of fouling out. I gather from what others have said about the post game presser that there is a health-related reason we haven't seen him much before now, but I think we could have seen him more today, at least for a short stretch.

[Kedsy]

I'm starting to think K just really prefers a 7 man rotation - even with the 7th guy only getting 10-15 mpg.

You're starting to think that?

[DUKIE V(A)]

Crushing defeat. Don't think I will be able to sleep tonight knowing that Coach K will be stopped one game short from yet another 30 win season. I guess 29-10 and a sixth Natty ain't bad. 😄

[ncexnyc]

This was not an epic collapse. We lost by what four or five points in OT?! I have no idea where you're getting this. We've been short-handed all season, so I can't believe you're only just now tuning in to see us running out of gas at the end of an OT game on the heels of a toughly contested game yesterday.

Notre Dame's been slumping lately, but they're a legit team. Maybe you don't watch a lot of their games, but they're a well coached team, whose players are also competitive and play with heart.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I assume you're just disappointed like the rest of us, but save the melodrama.

I hate to break it to you, but Private Pyle would have been envious of the team's performance today.

[Tripping William]

After last night's discussion in the ACC Tourney thread, would it be unfair to say we Clemsoned on ourselves?

Frustrating loss, with teachable moments. Luckily, we get to play next week.

[Duke76]

YES!!!!

No, but I was screaming at Doris as soon as I heard her come on.

[sagegrouse]

I'm part of the Duke world and I believe the answer is obvious:

1- Jeter is getting more burn as his practice and game play improves
2- up to this point Obi has been awful in practice and his early season game time was awful as well

Obi would be exposed for the player he is now (not that he can't improve) if given 10+ minutes. Do you really think K is sitting him for any other reason than he's not ready?

Jeter, I think is figuring things out. In a normal year, he'd not see many minutes, but due to a thin bench, he's growing confidence in game situations. I think today was his best game yet. I think he has a chance to play a big role in the tourney. In the long view, Jeter benefitted from Amile's injury and both this year's team (tourney) and next year's teams will reap the benefits.

Lighten up, Francis.

I would say that Jeter's improvement has also been helped by getting on the floor more. I personally think he has been under too tight a leash, and he and the team would have benefited from more minutes. It should have been obvious there would be games (yesterday and today), where we would need him to make a sizable contribution. And Obi, I just don't know. The player I saw today could have helped us throughout the year, and, yes, I heard what Coach K said, but....

And, yes, I think K is sitting Chase for other reasons. What's the phrase -- "short revolution?" Oh, that's right -- "short rotation." Moreover, if Chase isn't getting on the floor much, Sean would naturally be playing much less.

[Duke76]

I completely agree...was there in person and the guy next time, a UVA fan, said that when we were up 16 that we had it made...all we had to do was trade shots with ND and we would be fine...then we went cold. I also agree with the stall ball tactic - we are more of a team that works well passing it around and then hitting a bit shot.

Plumlee's missed free throws hurt...imagine if Matt Jones' hadn't broken his nose...I too agree that Jeter and Obi provided some solid minutes, particularly at the end of the first half.

Hoping that the extra rest helps...and thankful that in the tournament we will have a day in between games as opposed to back to back...

you know some years the injury bug just hits you inordinately rough. your point is well taken on the nose breakage. We win that game if Marshall has not a broken nose.
We win many more games in Amile is not hurt, many more imo. Just not our year to date!

[RepoMan]

I preface this by stating that I hoped we would play 4 games and win the Championship. Each year, you get two bites at the apple, and they are precious. That said:

1. The ACC Tournament is more grueling than the NCAA, and, while I don't really believe in the "end of season" fatigue syndrome, I do believe in the back to back to back game fatigue syndrome -- and that is a feature of conference tournament more than NCAA.

2. We are young and beat up and need a rest physically, but more so mentally.

3. Freshman are freshman. Just like anywhere else in life, you learn through experience. Now, they have a sense for tournament play. Hopefully, that little experience will go a long way.

4. The worst aspect of the loss is impact on seed. If, however, you ever had a chance to pick a year with a lower than ideal seed, this is the year. There will be upsets aplenty. The divide between the 2 seeds (and even the 1 seeds) and the 8-10 seeds is lower than ever, at least to my eyes.

5. I have a hunch that the top 8-10 ACC teams were pretty good this year, relative to the country. I guess we will see, but no shame losing in OT to ND.

6. The Jefferson injury is so frustrating. Marshall has had an exceptional season, as have Grayson and Brandon. I would hate for them not to be rewarded, largely because of a lack of depth.

7. I said this earlier this year, and there was disagreement, but I really think Luke is key. Much like last season with Winslow, when Luke is on, we are really hard to stop. The counterargument was that Luke isn't key because we have enough offensive firepower and the key is defense. I just disagree. This year, we are all about overwhelming offense. At any rate, while we can certainly play better D, there is only so much we can expect. In contrast, we could simply outscore any team in the country in any single game.

8. For this particular team, I like going into the tournament low profile with modest expectations.

9. The kids on this team have fought their asses off all year. It has been a pleasure to watch.

[DukeDevilDeb]

This is how I saw it too. Really poor IQ basketball after we were up 16. I also think it's a result of never being that high up against a really good opponent.

Credit goes to ND. That was one helluva come back.

Brey has Coach K's number. Hope that trend changes soon.

I have been absolutely amazed at the way in which Notre Dame has really trampled us over the last couple of years. Yeah, we beat them in Cameron last year, but that didn't make up for the beat down we suffered in the ACC tourney.

What is it about Brey that makes this happen? He isn't a HOF coach (at least not yet). We've played other former Duke assistants and never, ever had our butts whipped the way we have against Notre Dame. Would love to hear someone's theory.

[hsheffield]

I've almost always rooted for UNC unless they were playing Duke out of loyalty to the 'real' ACC and the belief that their strength made all the rest of us in the ACC better.

however,

their strength was an ill-gotten gain (I can't believe they still haven't faced any consequence)

and when I heard the announcers today saying that UNC fans in the crowd were cheering for ND it was just the last straw.


so.....


GO IRISH!!!

[fraggler]

After last night's discussion in the ACC Tourney thread, would it be unfair to say we Clemsoned on ourselves?

Frustrating loss, with teachable moments. Luckily, we get to play next week.

Or that we Duked in our shorts.

[rsvman]

Mike Brey was a UNC fan last Saturday. Think Rick Pitino and Kentucky fans. I hope they get slaughtered tomorrow.

Wait, what?

Maybe I'm missing something, but it appears that because you're angry that somebody else rooted for UNC, you've decided to root for UNC.

Does that make any sense to anybody?!?

[Kjeffrey]

I've almost always rooted for UNC unless they were playing Duke out of loyalty to the 'real' ACC and the belief that their strength made all the rest of us in the ACC better.

however,

their strength was an ill-gotten gain (I can't believe they still haven't faced any consequence)

and when I heard the announcers today saying that UNC fans in the crowd were cheering for ND it was just the last straw.


so....


GO IRISH!!!

I just can't root for ND because they are so arrogant. And exactly why are they so full of themselves? So they have beaten us a few times and won the ACC tourney last year. I seem to remember Duke winning a tournament last year and not one Blue Devil acts like that. As much as I don't care for Carolina at least I feel like they belong. I have lost all respect for Mike Brey because he allows his players to act the way they do. Why Auguste didn't get T'd up multiple times today is beyond me. Say what you will about the current Carolina squad but I don't think any of them act like that. Johnson is the closest but he doesn't compare to Auguste and Colson. This isn't sour grapes - they played hard and won the game but I just don't like how they carry themselves.

[weezie]

Or that we Duked in our shorts.


Oh man, my disapproval neg-spork finger is itching.....

[Ian]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

Ok, I'm not going to speak for anyone else. But for me I'm ready for the season to be over. Not for my sake, for theirs.

I don't say this because I don't love this team. In fact this is probably one of my favorite teams over the last ten years and I am so proud of them for what they have been able to do against such adversity. I'm still not sure how they won at UNC. But that's kind of why it's so painful to watch them right now. It's like watching your best friend step into the boxing ring with cracked ribs. You love the courage he is showing, but you dread seeing the beating he's going to take.

It was really hard to watch them give their all for 30 minutes, and then watch them just have nothing left in the tank in the last 10 minutes. They are so worn down, and I know how the script will play out next week, maybe in the 1st game, and if not surely in the 2nd game on 2 days rest it will catch up with them like it did today, and like it did in Louisville. And I just dread the idea of watching them take that inevitable beating again.

[lotusland]

This team hasn't played with a comfortable lead that much this season and they just aren't great at stall ball. Missed free throws, fouls, turnovers and allowing quick easy baskets are all killers. If you can manage not to do those things, you don't need to score too many points in order to win.

Obi is good rebounder but today duke played a lot of zone and I think they played zone exclusively with Obi in. I don't think Sean can stay with Auguste or many other ACC centers and forwards playing man. Also ND got 2 easy put backs while Obi was single mindedly watching the ball come off the glass but wasn't in position to get it. Furthermore we play 4 on 5 in offense with Obi in. Chase picked up too many quick fouls, dropped too many passes, turned the ball over and been caught out of position on D too many times this season. Duke hasn't been able to coast much this season at all. You have to win games and since Amile went out we haven't been able to withstand the drop off In play between Marshall and either Chase or Sean for more than the bare minimum to provide a few minutes rest each half or to buy some time when Marshall has had foul trouble. Chase recently stated playing more positive minutes so we'll probably see a little more of him now.

[weezie]

... when I heard the announcers today saying that UNC fans in the crowd were cheering for ND it was just the last straw.

so...

GO IRISH!!!

Naaaah, forget these two jackbutt wanker teams. Ignore the game and let the teevee ratings sink

Go HOOS!

[lotusland]

I just can't root for ND because they are so arrogant. And exactly why are they so full of themselves? So they have beaten us a few times and won the ACC tourney last year. I seem to remember Duke winning a tournament last year and not one Blue Devil acts like that. As much as I don't care for Carolina at least I feel like they belong. I have lost all respect for Mike Brey because he allows his players to act the way they do. Why Auguste didn't get T'd up multiple times today is beyond me. Say what you will about the current Carolina squad but I don't think any of them act like that. Johnson is the closest but he doesn't compare to Auguste and Colson. This isn't sour grapes - they played hard and won the game but I just don't like how they carry themselves.
I don't get the ND hate. I like the way they play except for having duke's number. They play hard and disciplined and with ice water in their veins. I don't know what Auguste says when he gets excited but if he's showing excitement and emotion for making a good play without trying to show up a ref or opponent then I understand why he doesn't get T'd up. GA plays with a lot of emotion too.

[Kjeffrey]

I don't get the ND hate. I like the way they play except for having duke's number. They play hard and disciplined and with ice water in their veins. I don't know what Auguste says when he gets excited but if he's showing excitement and emotion for making a good play without trying to show up a ref or opponent then I understand why he doesn't get T'd up. GA plays with a lot of emotion too.

You're absolutely right that GA plays with a lot of emotion. However, he does not woof in opponents' faces which Auguste did today. And I am pretty sure GA would have been T'd up had he done the same thing. Certainly it would have been an ESPN headline. Based on what I saw today I think ND's sportsmanship is a small step above Miami and Louisville. I will most definitely be rooting for the Heels tomorrow night!

[Billy Dat]

Ok, I'm not going to speak for anyone else. But for me I'm ready for the season to be over. Not for my sake, for theirs.

I don't say this because I don't love this team. In fact this is probably one of my favorite teams over the last ten years and I am so proud of them for what they have been able to do against such adversity. I'm still not sure how they won at UNC. But that's kind of why it's so painful to watch them right now. It's like watching your best friend step into the boxing ring with cracked ribs. You love the courage he is showing, but you dread seeing the beating he's going to take.

It was really hard to watch them give their all for 30 minutes, and then watch them just have nothing left in the tank in the last 10 minutes. They are so worn down, and I know how the script will play out next week, maybe in the 1st game, and if not surely in the 2nd game on 2 days rest it will catch up with them like it did today, and like it did in Louisville. And I just dread the idea of watching them take that inevitable beating again.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I am reminded of a scene in "Too Big to Fail", the HBO movie about the 2008 financial crisis, when the Goldman Sachs guys are heading to the meeting of the big banks with Ben Bernanke and Tim Geithner and one of his associates says to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein, "I don't think I can take another day of this!" and Blankfein laughed, "You're getting out of a Mercedes to go to the New York Federal Reserve. You're not getting out of a Higgins boat on Omaha Beach."

These kids are playing college basketball on the most exciting stage. They seem to like each other, they like their coaches, they are playing hard, they are ranked, and they can't be counted out of any game. No one wants to play us in the NCAA Tournament. Foul trouble caused us to wilt today, big deal. The players and coaches don't want it to be over, and neither do I. Considering it's the last we'll see of Marshall, likely the last we'll see of Brandon, and 50/50 best that it's the last we'll see of Grayson, let's keep this thing rolling!!!!!!!!

[dukelifer]

I have been absolutely amazed at the way in which Notre Dame has really trampled us over the last couple of years. Yeah, we beat them in Cameron last year, but that didn't make up for the beat down we suffered in the ACC tourney.

What is it about Brey that makes this happen? He isn't a HOF coach (at least not yet). We've played other former Duke assistants and never, ever had our butts whipped the way we have against Notre Dame. Would love to hear someone's theory.

What is this butt whipping of which you speak? Lost by 5 in overtime today- lost by 4 in Cameron- lost by 10 last year but had it within 4 with 3 to go- beat them by 30! and lost by 2 in south bend. I don't see any butt whippings except the one we put on them.

[CDu]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I am reminded of a scene in "Too Big to Fail", the HBO movie about the 2008 financial crisis, when the Goldman Sachs guys are heading to the meeting of the big banks with Ben Bernanke and Tim Geithner and one of his associates says to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein, "I don't think I can take another day of this!" and Blankfein laughed, "You're getting out of a Mercedes to go to the New York Federal Reserve. You're not getting out of a Higgins boat on Omaha Beach."

These kids are playing college basketball on the most exciting stage. They seem to like each other, they like their coaches, they are playing hard, they are ranked, and they can't be counted out of any game. No one wants to play us in the NCAA Tournament. Foul trouble caused us to wilt today, big deal. The players and coaches don't want it to be over, and neither do I. Considering it's the last we'll see of Marshall, likely the last we'll see of Brandon, and 50/50 best that it's the last we'll see of Grayson, let's keep this thing rolling!!!!!!!!

Not to be lost is that we are very much in the home stretch of Coach K's career. He doesn't have many years left. I wantvevery one of his remaining seasons to last as long as possible, because who knows if we will remain elite once he is retired.

[Eternal Outlaw]

I don't get the ND hate. I like the way they play except for having duke's number. They play hard and disciplined and with ice water in their veins. I don't know what Auguste says when he gets excited but if he's showing excitement and emotion for making a good play without trying to show up a ref or opponent then I understand why he doesn't get T'd up. GA plays with a lot of emotion too.

He had a couple moments today where I would define was showing up the refs when a call went against him/them(foot stomping, very animated arm swinging with yelling). He also had a block early in the game that after which he turned 90 degrees so he was facing the player he blocked and yell at him.

[ThrowItAround]

I think with rested legs next weekend we can get by a 12/13 and 5/4, after that, its all about the match up. Today was not the end of world by any measure. GO DUKE!!

[SupaDave]

Stall ball. FML.

[fraggler]

Oh man, my disapproval neg-spork finger is itching....

Just trying to play with words. Bad taste, I agree.

[korshmar]

Very disappointing. The turning point was when we started killing clock. I'm actually a big fan of stall ball when we use it at the end of games but there was a point when we had a pretty big lead and we started stalling and it killed our rhythm on offense. Pulled the plug too early. I'm so disappointed because so many good things had happened, especially the quality minutes by Jeter and Obi. I really thought we were going to win without Ingram's offense today. At one point when we were up by a bunch I thought "wow, how much would we be up by if Luke or Derryck could hit a 3 or if Brandon could hit that short jumper in the lane". Little did I know that we would truly need those points.

Oh well, on the bright side we get some more rest before the NCAAT. On the downside, I worried about this team's success in the tournament because we seem unable to put teams away in the second half. 16 today, 9 yesterday, other games same thing.

i agree completely with this observation: "The turning point was when we started killing clock.....and it killed our rhythm on offense." As followers of Duke know, Coach K has often started slowing things down with about a ten point lead and six or so minutes to play. In today's game, he did it earlier, and it hurt. I actually thought it also hurt in the NC State game- State was playing tired, but not having to play defense until 10 seconds remained on the shot clock for Duke may have given them a chance to rest and get second wind. I know one thing for sure: percentage of scoring success goes way down when you wait until 10 seconds remaining on shot clock to start to try to score. This tactic also comes into play when Duke has the last shot of the half- I'm guessing they score only about 10% of the time in that situation. So I'm wondering if others similarly cringe when Coach K has them slow down the offense????

On the other hand, five national championships..

[-jk]

Tired team in foul trouble. Stall ball. I can see it...

-jk

[wavedukefan70s]

I believe we dipped into stall ball too early. I just finished watching the game. I felt bad how the anti-Grayson crowd has been brutal towards him lately.

After the fits Auguste had repeatedly, I'm not sure any player would get teed up by that crew. On the bright side Obi and Jeter did better than I thought. That's a plus.

Next play.

[WakeDevil]

I do not pull for any of Swofford's Yankee interlopers to beat the teams that joined the league in the twentieth century. ND, Pitt, Syracuse and the headache powder can always lose in the first round, and to heck with the "league record."

Swofford insults my intelligence by having a Pitt player presented as an "ACC legend. Does this mean Len Bias is a Big Ten legend?

[dukepsy1963]

All I know is that those kids played their hearts out. I love em for that. They could have done it, but it just wasn't in today's cards. We will return the favor to ND, I assure you of that...:mad:
Take heart, class always wins out....

Go Duke...always behind you guys..

John 1963

[dukelifer]

i agree completely with this observation: "The turning point was when we started killing clock....and it killed our rhythm on offense." As followers of Duke know, Coach K has often started slowing things down with about a ten point lead and six or so minutes to play. In today's game, he did it earlier, and it hurt. I actually thought it also hurt in the NC State game- State was playing tired, but not having to play defense until 10 seconds remained on the shot clock for Duke may have given them a chance to rest and get second wind. I know one thing for sure: percentage of scoring success goes way down when you wait until 10 seconds remaining on shot clock to start to try to score. This tactic also comes into play when Duke has the last shot of the half- I'm guessing they score only about 10% of the time in that situation. So I'm wondering if others similarly cringe when Coach K has them slow down the offense????

On the other hand, five national championships..
Amazing that the guy has won any games with his complete ignorance of sound basketball strategy. Stall ball did not lose the game- poor execution did. Missed free throws- turnovers and poor finishes at the rim did them in and ND hit some big threes. Duke had their chance to still win with a minute to go up three- but again did not execute.

[elvis14]

There's been some talk about not liking ND. I'll agree that two of their players were annoying today: Colston and Auguste. In fact Colston is always annoying. There was a point where I thought Auguste might get T'd up he was woofing so hard at our guys. GA would have been ejected. So yeah, I'm pretty upset about the loss and not liking ND and especially these two guys much at all.

So yeah, as I think about it and I think about tomorrows match up between NC and UNCheat I can say that I will be rooting hard for......Notre Dame, you freaking idiots. NEVER EVER EVER ROOT FOR UNCheat in ANY SPORT EVER. I hope UNC doesn't score a point, that Colston and Auguste go for about 80 and woof the whole time, and I can't wait to hear 'Ol Roy those his team under the bus after the game. 9F and 9F. Root against ND tomorrow, yo a** must be crazy. Aint nobody got time for that.

[84crazy]

Damn man your not going to get a much better chance to be a hero than the one he had today. Proud as hell of the fight in these young guys never count them out.

[sleepybear]

It means we scored just 12 points in the final 16 minutes.

We scored 2 points in the first 5 minutes and 12 in the final 16 mins. 21 minutes to score 14 points but we did score 65 in the other 24 minutes so...:confused:

[rsvman]

I believe we dipped into stall ball too early. I just finished watching the game. I felt bad how the anti-Grayson crowd has been brutal towards him lately.

After the fits Auguste had repeatedly, I'm not sure any player would get teed up by that crew. On the bright side Obi and Jeter did better than I thought. That's a plus.

Next play.

K was pretty much forced into starting stall ball earlier than he would have liked to by foul trouble and exhaustion. I think it was the right move.

some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the soundness of any decision made at any time of your life and in any circumstance whatsoever cannot be judged solely or even primarily by its outcome. sometimes good decisions lead to bad outcomes and sometimes bad decisions lead to good ones.

the only reasonable way to judge the soundness of a decision is to decide whether, given only the information that was available at the time, the choice made was reasonable, prudent, and had a good chance of leading to the desired outcome. I believe it was. the fact that the desired outcome was not achieved doesn't alter the soundness of the decision at all; nothing in life or sports is guaranteed.

Next play.

[Emerrick]

If Obi hasn't been secretly injured all year, I have NO idea why you guys didn't use him for at least 5-8 mpg just to keep a little wear and tear off of Plumlee and Ingrahm. There's a HUGE difference between having to average 31-32 mpg and 36-37 mpg over the course of a (nearly) full season. I'm starting to think K just really prefers a 7 man rotation - even with the 7th guy only getting 10-15 mpg. Look at how good Allen is and he barely touched the floor last year. I'm aware that Jones and Cook were better, but did they really need to play 35+ in big games?

In the presser, Coach K mentioned Obi's knees and Jones' ankle. It sounds like his knees are in bad shape. Hopefully Jones will be 100% because it didn't sound like he has been.

[Atldukie79]

I like this team and admire what they have done.

This was an exceptionally coached game and the team played their hearts out.

Coaching:

The zone was a great coaching call. We started in a zone and it worked well, and when foul trouble and fatigue hit, we had to stay in a zone. And going into the stall was the right move. We were losing players and legs and had no choice. We could not match the energy of ND down the stretch...no way we could sustain a man defense.

Collapse:
Yes it was painful, but how can you be disappointed in this team? They hit a wall. Period. I believe it was mostly fatigue. But it was also a young team trying to play with fatigue. There are signs that a team is tired that you can hide, like not bending over and grabbing your shorts...but you can't hide the fact when you are slow to rotate on defense, when you are slow to block out and leap for a rebound. Oh, and long range shooting is most vulnerable to fatigue...hmmm, that's who we are.

There is no shame and no surprise, at least to me. Unless you want to hold K responsible for a short bench, I have nothing but respect for what has been achieved, and what still might be achieved. What has been done with this team and by this team is exceptional. I yield to those with better memories, but I suggest we have not quite had this combination of high level talent, short bench, and youth.

I think it is remarkable that we have not had more losses, given the depth of the ACC this year. You have a pretty high, unmatched standard if you expect a guys to play 35-40 minutes a night of high level hoops as an 18-19 year old. BTW...I guarantee few of these guys playing 2 or 3 AAU games on a Saturday exerted the same level of effort as one of these demanding ACC games.

I am in awe of what these guys have done.

[moonpie23]

i've been trying to just deal with it, but i'm still bummed......

a state friend of mine said that "all you dukies are just too used to winning"........i can't deny that...

makes me very pessimistic on next week as well....

:(

[jseelke]

You're absolutely right that GA plays with a lot of emotion. However, he does not woof in opponents' faces which Auguste did today. And I am pretty sure GA would have been T'd up had he done the same thing. Certainly it would have been an ESPN headline. Based on what I saw today I think ND's sportsmanship is a small step above Miami and Louisville. I will most definitely be rooting for the Heels tomorrow night!

I too do not get any of the ND hate here...Remember that for years, Brey was Coach K's right hand man - while he didn't play for K, he was the first branch of the coaching tree. I would imagine that much of what he has learned from coaching has come from K or Morgan Wooton at DeMatha - two of the top coaches of the game at any level. He has taken a ND team that was average before he came and turned them into a team that can often go into the second weekend of the tourney. Recall last year, before Wisconsin knocked off Kentucky they were right there with them - one of the best, if not the best, games of the tournament.

Really. GA doesn't get in people's faces? Maybe, maybe not, but I honestly don't like the way he sometimes plays - the flagrant I today, the two tripping incidents in earlier games. It just doesn't seem right.

As for when someone mentioned that UNC fans were rooting for ND - wouldn't you root for anyone but carolina in any game?

I'm hoping for an ND-UVA final...

[sagegrouse]

K was pretty much forced into starting stall ball earlier than he would have liked to by foul trouble and exhaustion. I think it was the right move.

some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the soundness of any decision made at any time of your life and in any circumstance whatsoever cannot be judged solely or even primarily by its outcome. sometimes good decisions lead to bad outcomes and sometimes bad decisions lead to good ones.

the only reasonable way to judge the soundness of a decision is to decide whether, given only the information that was available at the time, the choice made was reasonable, prudent, and had a good chance of leading to the desired outcome. I believe it was. the fact that the desired outcome was not achieved doesn't alter the soundness of the decision at all; nothing in life or sports is guaranteed.

Next play.
There is another way:

Two Rules for Duke basketball --

1. Coach K is always right.

2. When Coach K is wrong, see Rule #1.

[FerryFor50]

While it would have been cool to see Duke beat ND for a change and get another crack at UNC, I'm partly relieved it didn't happen. I think UNC has been playing much better recently, especially with their guard play. I don't think it would have been that close, and even if Duke pulls out a win, they get rewarded to ANOTHER back to back game with either UVA or Miami - two more good, physical teams.

Then they get maybe three days off until they play whatever team they get saddled with in the first weekend.

The ACC Tournament would have been nice, but I'm more interested in a long NCAA run. Definitely getting out of the first weekend if at all possible.

As for the game, while blowing a 16 point lead was infinitely disappointing, there were some positives:

- No one got hurt
- It wasn't Colson that lit Duke up (this time)
- Jeter and Obi had some actual positive minutes, and K hinted in his presser that Obi might be ready for more playing time now that his knees are feeling better.
- They built a 16 point lead on ND with solid offense *and* defense. I think losing the lead had more to do with the foul trouble (and our top center having a broken nose/having to wear a mask) than fatigue.
- Despite blowing the 16 point lead, Duke had a real good look at the end to try to win it, and had Luke shot it sooner, a possible putback to win it with Jeter (I feel like we have a lot of these "what if" games this year)
- Matt looked much better today; more spry, more athletic, better leaping. And his shot was falling.

As for the foul trouble... I don't understand some of the offensive fouls Ingram was called for. The 4th (the charge) was legit, but my gripe on that was the fact they didn't call any fouls on MP3's shot attempt. He looked like he absorbed a lot of contact. The broadcast didn't really show any replays of Ingram's other offensive fouls (go figure) so it's tough to say what he did.

I also didn't like (check that... I HATED) the 3rd foul on Plumlee. Auguste definitely lowered a shoulder into a set Plumlee and MP3 didn't flop; he legitimately fell.

I also didn't understand how Auguste never seemed to pick up many fouls, despite playing pretty physically, despite getting the officials' attention with the over-animated celebrations, borderline taunting (both on blocks on Ingram - one block that came after a foul) - but most of all, the demonstrative protesting of just about every foul call/non call he was involved in. He didn't even seem to get as much as a warning. What does it take to get T'd up for showing up an official? Swearing? Grabbing a jersey? Wearing royal blue?

The foul trouble was very much a factor in the outcome of this game. A large portion of the Duke drought came when Ingram was on the bench, saddled with 4 fouls. ND's run coincided with Duke being unable to defend the interior with their bigs or even *attempt* to rebound for fear of fouling out. Such is the danger with a team that lacks depth. You are at the mercy of the whistle.

Credit ND - they got hot at the right time (when Duke couldn't afford to play aggressively on D) and they played some very un-Notre Dame like defense.

Let's hope they take that hot shooting into the next game and beat UNC, rather than rolling over like a Pitt Panther.

[UrinalCake]

It might not have mattered, but we were only down 3 with 38 seconds left in OT, their ball. We fouled when we could've tried to play good defense and get it back with 8 seconds to tie. Any second guessing there?


I think in that situation you trap and try to get a turnover, or at least get the ball out of the hands of their better free throw shooters, but once they get it past halfcourt then you go ahead and foul. What we did was foul immediately, without even trying to get a steal, and allowed a guy shooting something like 85% to go to the line.

The argument in favor of letting them run the clock down would be that we were so gassed that we'd be better off reducing the game to getting one defensive stop and then hitting a three. But under normal circumstances, I think you try to foul and extend the game to more possessions, giving you a greater chance of getting missed free throws and/or a turnover, which is really the only chance you have of tying the game up.

[UrinalCake]

Tired team in foul trouble. Stall ball. I can see it...

Yeah, I don't think stall ball is what caused us to lose. Our offense late in games tends to be Allen or Ingram iso'ing and then just taking their man one on one. If you're going to do that, there's no real difference in doing it with 25 seconds on the shot clock versus doing it with 5 seconds left. We still got some decent shots, they just stopped falling. And Luke's final shot that would have won it in regulation was about as good of a look as you can reasonably expect to get in that situation.

[DRC]

With a short bench and all the time the starting five/six have played over the past several weeks, it just seems like the guys gave as much as they could and finally ran out of gas. They looked really tired the last 10 min of that game, ND sensed it and cranked it up. But man, our guys played well up to that point and it's nice to see Jeeter and Obi contribute some solid time. It also appeared that Marshall was understandably tentative due to the broken nose. K has done an amazing job with this team. I hate to say this but I'm sort of glad they'll have some time off to regenerate, replenish and be ready for the NCAA tournament.

[gofurman]

Man. That sucked.

We looked pretty good.

Then, suddenly, we looked pretty terrible.

If those weren't tired legs out there, I don't know what is. I know these kids are young and have plenty of energy. Heck, I even subscribe to that oft-used stance by K. But man oh man they certainly looked like they hit a wall. They stopped moving, the shots looked sloppy, they seemed to stop going for loose balls.

Disappointed. Thought we would live to fight another day.

See you next week, boys. Rest up.

- Chillin

THIS. I get that K is great etc... But don't tell me '20 year olds don't EVER get tired'. That's BS. Anytime someone says that let us refer them to today as exhibit A - "ACC tourney vs Notre Dame 2016." CASE CLOSED. Those last ten minutes were painful to watch. Shots short... No leaping for rebounds.. Ingram avoiding contact. Just a different game than the first thirty minutes

It's not humanly possible to play but so much and not get tired. Even at 20 years old. Jay Williams admitted that when K leaned on him for 38 minutes he opted to take plays off on D and that others have later admitted the same. He was just too tired.

Not saying there's a better way to coach it - maybe an 80% great player is better than a rested bench guy. But let's not say these guys don't get tired. Also, look how we fared in Saturday to Monday (one day turnarounds) this year. Not well

Now I don't think the ACC should have Saturday to Monday turnarounds - or no more than one per team per season - but that's another subject.

[gofurman]

Yeah, I don't think stall ball is what caused us to lose. Our offense late in games tends to be Allen or Ingram iso'ing and then just taking their man one on one. If you're going to do that, there's no real difference in doing it with 25 seconds on the shot clock versus doing it with 5 seconds left. We still got some decent shots, they just stopped falling. And Luke's final shot that would have won it in regulation was about as good of a look as you can reasonably expect to get in that situation.

Luke did have a great shot .... But man he didn't look confident today at all on the whole. Even that last shot was on his left - and he is a lefty! - and I think he tried to force it w his right hand??? Weird

[Lulu]

...the only reasonable way to judge the soundness of a decision is to decide whether, given only the information that was available at the time, the choice made was reasonable, prudent, and had a good chance of leading to the desired outcome. I believe it was. the fact that the desired outcome was not achieved doesn't alter the soundness of the decision at all; nothing in life or sports is guaranteed.

Next play.

I agree. But if you change the word "good" to "better" I disagree.

...


Well, the discussion has been had too many times already. As hard as we fight, our team is not disciplined or mature enough for stall ball, and certainly didn't get many chances to practice it this year. Maybe we lose either way, we'll never know. You can do the math, but it still seems like no one realizes how quickly a lead can dissipate these days. Given the chance to slow down, young, tired guys can't help themselves from getting comfortable and hoping to lean on others and their lead. We were bound to tire, yes, but we didn't instantly tire out the moment we entered the stall as it would appear to anyone watching.

And then forget anything at all about our team and our situation. It breathes new life into ND. They are frustrated and out of the game and just the appearance that we intend to continue to pound them status quo is very likely enough to prevent any kind of spark. ... But, we give them a brand new look. Reset. Go. We give them life. And yeah, they have more energy given the new will to use it.

It is just too demoralizing for young guys, especially, to watch their lead dwindle. They start out doing lazy things, they get scared, then they start doing stupid things and looking hopeless. I don't think I've ever seen any Duke team play with the same fight and effort during the stall that they had before entering it. Someone needs to somehow get it through our teams' heads that there can be no let up; it is a game strategy, particularly the way we use it, not a chance to rest or bow out for your teammates and hope with a few lucky bounces we'll still get an easy win.

I'm not entirely anti-stall. We just use it way too early. I get the logic; but there are too many emotions. I'd just prefer to see it used as a game closer, not an extended game strategy to barely eek out a win because we actually think we're more likely to blow a 16 point lead with this team if we don't. I'm guilty of sitting there today allowing myself a few thoughts about tomorrow's game with UNC, until the moment we started the stall, then I told the person I was watching it with that we had just given every advantage in the game to ND because us in a stall was perfect for them and "This is really going to suck. Watch". He's already quoted me to ten coworkers telling them how amazing I am, etc. (he's not a Duke fan), but I had to tell him "Seriously, every Duke fan knows this - there were a thousand of us cringing."

Anyway... I just immediately assumed there was an NCAA rule about loose gear when Marshall didn't lift the mask for his free throws... and as for the mask itself, didn't it look excessively wide across the bridge of his nose and protruding in a way that would seriously hamper depth perception? I have no clue if there is a medical necessity for this, maybe so, but if not, and we see a mask again, those eye openings need to be a little closer together.

I will probably owe the board some apologies after this. I just cannot help myself when it comes to the stall. It's like we've developed a scheme based on some really bad stats work, assuming our players will behave as robots and the scoreboard has been turned off.

Or maybe I just hate the stall because of the health conditions it is giving me, and the dissatisfying wins it yields when it does work (or not fail). Maybe I'm the one who can't handle the stall. I'll just never believe we had a greater chance of losing today had we not gone to the stall when we did. And sadly, I think I have to go ahead and submit this post just to fend off these same aforementioned health conditions. It's literally the only way I will stop stewing and I've had all day already. So thanks I guess...

[DukieInKansas]

Why do people keep using the past tense when referring to this season?

Excellent point! Plenty of season left. Let's go, Duke!

[DukieInKansas]

There's been some talk about not liking ND. I'll agree that two of their players were annoying today: Colston and Auguste. In fact Colston is always annoying. There was a point where I thought Auguste might get T'd up he was woofing so hard at our guys. GA would have been ejected. So yeah, I'm pretty upset about the loss and not liking ND and especially these two guys much at all.

So yeah, as I think about it and I think about tomorrows match up between NC and UNCheat I can say that I will be rooting hard for...Notre Dame, you freaking idiots. NEVER EVER EVER ROOT FOR UNCheat in ANY SPORT EVER. I hope UNC doesn't score a point, that Colston and Auguste go for about 80 and woof the whole time, and I can't wait to hear 'Ol Roy those his team under the bus after the game. 9F and 9F. Root against ND tomorrow, yo a** must be crazy. Aint nobody got time for that.

I found Auguste to be highly annoying. Didn't notice Colson as much.

Tomorrow, I'm rooting for a meteor.

[gofurman]

I agree. But if you change the word "good" to "better" I disagree.

...


Well, the discussion has been had too many times already. As hard as we fight, our team is not disciplined or mature enough for stall ball, and certainly didn't get many chances to practice it this year. Maybe we lose either way, we'll never know. You can do the math, but it still seems like no one realizes how quickly a lead can dissipate these days. Given the chance to slow down, young, tired guys can't help themselves from getting comfortable and hoping to lean on others and their lead. We were bound to tire, yes, but we didn't instantly tire out the moment we entered the stall as it would appear to anyone watching.

And then forget anything at all about our team and our situation. It breathes new life into ND. They are frustrated and out of the game and just the appearance that we intend to continue to pound them status quo is very likely enough to prevent any kind of spark. ... But, we give them a brand new look. Reset. Go. We give them life. And yeah, they have more energy given the new will to use it.

It is just too demoralizing for young guys, especially, to watch their lead dwindle. They start out doing lazy things, they get scared, then they start doing stupid things and looking hopeless. I don't think I've ever seen any Duke team play with the same fight and effort during the stall that they had before entering it. Someone needs to somehow get it through our teams' heads that there can be no let up; it is a game strategy, particularly the way we use it, not a chance to rest or bow out for your teammates and hope with a few lucky bounces we'll still get an easy win.

I'm not entirely anti-stall. We just use it way too early. I get the logic; but there are too many emotions. I'd just prefer to see it used as a game closer, not an extended game strategy to barely eek out a win because we actually think we're more likely to blow a 16 point lead with this team if we don't. I'm guilty of sitting there today allowing myself a few thoughts about tomorrow's game with UNC, until the moment we started the stall, then I told the person I was watching it with that we had just given every advantage in the game to ND because us in a stall was perfect for them and "This is really going to suck. Watch". He's already quoted me to ten coworkers telling them how amazing I am, etc. (he's not a Duke fan), but I had to tell him "Seriously, every Duke fan knows this - there were a thousand of us cringing."

Anyway... I just immediately assumed there was an NCAA rule about loose gear when Marshall didn't lift the mask for his free throws... and as for the mask itself, didn't it look excessively wide across the bridge of his nose and protruding in a way that would seriously hamper depth perception? I have no clue if there is a medical necessity for this, maybe so, but if not, and we see a mask again, those eye openings need to be a little closer together.

I will probably owe the board some apologies after this. I just cannot help myself when it comes to the stall. It's like we've developed a scheme based on some really bad stats work, assuming our players will behave as robots and the scoreboard has been turned off.

Or maybe I just hate the stall because of the health conditions it is giving me, and the dissatisfying wins it yields when it does work (or not fail). Maybe I'm the one who can't handle the stall. I'll just never believe we had a greater chance of losing today had we not gone to the stall when we did. And sadly, I think I have to go ahead and submit this post just to fend off these same aforementioned health conditions. It's literally the only way I will stop stewing and I've had all day already. So thanks I guess...

Worth noting is that stall ball is less effective by definition this year because of the 30 second shot clock. If every stall ball play starts w 10-12 seconds left on the clock and we run stall ball today w a 35 second shot clock that's probably two possessions less for ND?? Is that right??? If we can work five more seconds off each possession for the last eight to ten minutes? Of course, it's not like the coaches don't know about the new shot clock at 30 seconds. Just a mathematical note. Thoughts?

[DukieInKansas]

There were at least two calls today that the announcers didn't think should have gone against Duke - but they sure didn't seem like they wanted to acknowledge it.

And all thoughts were made worse because the DVR stopped with 16 minutes left in the game so I went online to watch the end. WatchEspn would be going along just fine and come back from a commercial and start at the beginning. So I'd move the bar to where it was when the commercial started and it would be 30 seconds left in OT. That sure made my view of all calls against Duke and all ND reactions to anything be extremely negative.

Still love this team and hope the additional days off allow for healing and rest and much planning. Let's go, Duke!

And I'm still rooting for a meteor tomorrow night.

[BandAlum83]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5144729

Definitely check out the last 3-4 minutes of K's presser for his impassioned defense and celebration of Grayson who is sitting right next to him.

Wow....Just wow. I am so proud K is our coach. Whether in victory or defeat, K is always the consummate sportsman. Gracious, respectful of the competition, proud and supportive of his team and players.

He is an incredible leader and ambassador for our university.

[BandAlum83]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5144729

Definitely check out the last 3-4 minutes of K's presser for his impassioned defense and celebration of Grayson who is sitting right next to him.

The impassioned defense and celebration of Grayson, did make me think they both know, if even unspoken, that this was Grayson's last ACCT game.

I hope it isn't so.

[BandAlum83]

I always thought it was 17... :-)

You might be thinking 8 points in 17 seconds.

[BandAlum83]

I have been absolutely amazed at the way in which Notre Dame has really trampled us over the last couple of years. Yeah, we beat them in Cameron last year, but that didn't make up for the beat down we suffered in the ACC tourney.

What is it about Brey that makes this happen? He isn't a HOF coach (at least not yet). We've played other former Duke assistants and never, ever had our butts whipped the way we have against Notre Dame. Would love to hear someone's theory.

Maybe because he was there as K became THE MAN. He was there from the start and as a result doesn't have the same impact as having played for and coached for THE GOAT.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree. But if you change the word "good" to "better" I disagree.

...


Well, the discussion has been had too many times already. As hard as we fight, our team is not disciplined or mature enough for stall ball, and certainly didn't get many chances to practice it this year. Maybe we lose either way, we'll never know. You can do the math, but it still seems like no one realizes how quickly a lead can dissipate these days. Given the chance to slow down, young, tired guys can't help themselves from getting comfortable and hoping to lean on others and their lead. We were bound to tire, yes, but we didn't instantly tire out the moment we entered the stall as it would appear to anyone watching.

And then forget anything at all about our team and our situation. It breathes new life into ND. They are frustrated and out of the game and just the appearance that we intend to continue to pound them status quo is very likely enough to prevent any kind of spark. ... But, we give them a brand new look. Reset. Go. We give them life. And yeah, they have more energy given the new will to use it.

It is just too demoralizing for young guys, especially, to watch their lead dwindle. They start out doing lazy things, they get scared, then they start doing stupid things and looking hopeless. I don't think I've ever seen any Duke team play with the same fight and effort during the stall that they had before entering it. Someone needs to somehow get it through our teams' heads that there can be no let up; it is a game strategy, particularly the way we use it, not a chance to rest or bow out for your teammates and hope with a few lucky bounces we'll still get an easy win.

I'm not entirely anti-stall. We just use it way too early. I get the logic; but there are too many emotions. I'd just prefer to see it used as a game closer, not an extended game strategy to barely eek out a win because we actually think we're more likely to blow a 16 point lead with this team if we don't. I'm guilty of sitting there today allowing myself a few thoughts about tomorrow's game with UNC, until the moment we started the stall, then I told the person I was watching it with that we had just given every advantage in the game to ND because us in a stall was perfect for them and "This is really going to suck. Watch". He's already quoted me to ten coworkers telling them how amazing I am, etc. (he's not a Duke fan), but I had to tell him "Seriously, every Duke fan knows this - there were a thousand of us cringing."

Anyway... I just immediately assumed there was an NCAA rule about loose gear when Marshall didn't lift the mask for his free throws... and as for the mask itself, didn't it look excessively wide across the bridge of his nose and protruding in a way that would seriously hamper depth perception? I have no clue if there is a medical necessity for this, maybe so, but if not, and we see a mask again, those eye openings need to be a little closer together.

I will probably owe the board some apologies after this. I just cannot help myself when it comes to the stall. It's like we've developed a scheme based on some really bad stats work, assuming our players will behave as robots and the scoreboard has been turned off.

Or maybe I just hate the stall because of the health conditions it is giving me, and the dissatisfying wins it yields when it does work (or not fail). Maybe I'm the one who can't handle the stall. I'll just never believe we had a greater chance of losing today had we not gone to the stall when we did. And sadly, I think I have to go ahead and submit this post just to fend off these same aforementioned health conditions. It's literally the only way I will stop stewing and I've had all day already. So thanks I guess...

For someone who says "I'm not entirely stall ball," you sure sound it. :)

There are all sorts of conversations you can have about the strategy, but I don't see much of any options yesterday.

- big lead (more than a point a minute)
- obvious heavy legs on our guys
- with a win, another game in 24 hours
- injury to a starter having an obvious impact on his game
- three eventual players fouled out
- jeter playing more minutes than normal
- obi playing his first meaningful minutes of the season
- kennard hitting nothing
- ingram frustrated on offense

Add that all up, and if you have stall ball in your arsenal, THAT is when you cue it up.

Now, we were terrible at it. Didn't seem to run anything like a cohesive play that ended with a decent look. But that was the execution, not the strategy.

[BandAlum83]

I don't get the ND hate. I like the way they play except for having duke's number. They play hard and disciplined and with ice water in their veins. I don't know what Auguste says when he gets excited but if he's showing excitement and emotion for making a good play without trying to show up a ref or opponent then I understand why he doesn't get T'd up. GA plays with a lot of emotion too.

An excellent private university with top-notch academic and research facilities attracting the best and brightest students in the country (and some pretty high SATs to match).

A well respected and clean athletic program.

An emotional, demonstrative, excellent basketball player people love to hate and complain about.

National Championships in multiple sports (men's and women's).

A perceived lily-white, entitled, privileged student body.

Beautiful campus dominated by a place of worship as its centerpiece.

Highly regarded graduate schools with alumni in positions of leadership throughout the country.

Whats' not to hate?

Some people on this board need to see the irony of their ND hatred.

I have great respect for ND. I almost went there. My brother went there. The brother of my sophomore year roommate went there. If you want to hate on a place, hate on the university up the road I used to respect until i found it was all a sham for what, 18 years?

[royalblue]

There's been some talk about not liking ND. I'll agree that two of their players were annoying today: Colston and Auguste. In fact Colston is always annoying. There was a point where I thought Auguste might get T'd up he was woofing so hard at our guys. GA would have been ejected. So yeah, I'm pretty upset about the loss and not liking ND and especially these two guys much at all.

So yeah, as I think about it and I think about tomorrows match up between NC and UNCheat I can say that I will be rooting hard for...Notre Dame, you freaking idiots. NEVER EVER EVER ROOT FOR UNCheat in ANY SPORT EVER. I hope UNC doesn't score a point, that Colston and Auguste go for about 80 and woof the whole time, and I can't wait to hear 'Ol Roy those his team under the bus after the game. 9F and 9F. Root against ND tomorrow, yo a** must be crazy. Aint nobody got time for that.

1. This is the correct attitude thank you
2. Unless Duke is in the same building then I am always pulling for a meteor. I thought everyone felt this way my bad
3. I am predicting 2 things from the NCAA tourney committee.
Duke to Denver If you think tired now that would be bad. After they send Duke to Denver then IF Duke can win one game I assume they will be playing a team like West Virginia in the round of 32 at a mile high location.
If this can be avoided and we can get some meteors that are attracted to light blue and plaid my attitude will be much improved.

[dukelifer]

You might be thinking 8 points in 17 seconds.

No- Duke had a history for a while of blowing 17 point leads and it has become an inside joke. It probably started with this truly epic collapse. After that people always got nervous up 17 and Duke in stall ball.



Mar. 22, 1998 – Top-seeded Duke appeared well on the way to delivering another crushing defeat to second-seeded Kentucky six years after the famous game in Philadelphia.

This meeting, played in the Tropicana Dome in St. Petersburg, was for the South regional championship. And with Duke up 17 with 12 minutes to play, the Blue Devils appeared poised to earn a trip to the Final Four in San Antonio.

But Kentucky, which had played in the two previous national title games (winning in 1996 and losing to Arizona in 1997), still had some fight left. Keyed by guards Wayne Turner and Jeff Sheppard, the ‘Cats reeled off a 17-3 run to get back in the game. The score was tied at 81-all with just over two minutes left when Scott Padgett hit a 3-pointer from the top of the key to give Kentucky the lead.

Duke, which got strong performances from Trajan Langdon and Roshown McLeod, had one final chance, getting the ball back with just under five seconds left, down two. This time, there would be no Christian Laettner miracle – freshman Will Avery launched a running shot from 35-feet out, but it missed badly and Kentucky was able to escape with an 86-84 victory

[Kjeffrey]

An excellent private university with top-notch academic and research facilities attracting the best and brightest students in the country (and some pretty high SATs to match).

A well respected and clean athletic program.

An emotional, demonstrative, excellent basketball player people love to hate and complain about.

National Championships in multiple sports (men's and women's).

A perceived lily-white, entitled, privileged student body.

Beautiful campus dominated by a place of worship as its centerpiece.

Highly regarded graduate schools with alumni in positions of leadership throughout the country.

Whats' not to hate?

Some people on this board need to see the irony of their ND hatred.

I have great respect for ND. I almost went there. My brother went there. The brother of my sophomore year roommate went there. If you want to hate on a place, hate on the university up the road I used to respect until i found it was all a sham for what, 18 years?

I don't really see the irony because at no time did I refer to what you have listed above. I am sure it is a fine academic institution but that is not my point. I just watched a basketball game and my comments pertain to that game, the players and coaching. Currently Mike Brey has a few players who are very easy to dislike. There were multiple reactions on Auguste's part that were worthy of a warning or technical foul. Since it continued throughout the game I assume Mike Brey is fine with it. I am most definitely not a Carolina fan but I am a basketball fan and don't believe behavior like Auguste's should be allowed. I will gladly root for another ACC blue blood win than root for a team that plays like the current ND squad.

[luburch]

So at most this team has six games left together. I feel like the Kentucky game was just a week ago.

There are few Duke teams I have enjoyed watching as much as this team. They have struggled at times, but they are absolutely resilient. Grayson is everything I hoped he would be this year and 10x more. He has no quit in him. Brandon is loaded with talent and it's been fun watching him figure it out as the season goes on. Watching the three other freshmen grow-up and adjust to the college game has been a pleasure. So happy that Plumlee has put the pieces together and is having success. Matt is a calming presence and I hope he can get healthy.

Whether this team has one game or six (hoping it's six) left together, it has been an absolute joy watching this team.

[left_hook_lacey]

After last night's discussion in the ACC Tourney thread, would it be unfair to say we Clemsoned on ourselves?

Frustrating loss, with teachable moments. Luckily, we get to play next week.

Careful. Using the term "Clemsoning" will get you negative sporks around here. Looking at you Elvis14. :D

[elvis14]

For someone who says "I'm not entirely stall ball," you sure sound it. :)

There are all sorts of conversations you can have about the strategy, but I don't see much of any options yesterday.

- big lead (more than a point a minute)
- obvious heavy legs on our guys
- with a win, another game in 24 hours
- injury to a starter having an obvious impact on his game
- three eventual players fouled out
- jeter playing more minutes than normal
- obi playing his first meaningful minutes of the season
- kennard hitting nothing
- ingram frustrated on offense

Add that all up, and if you have stall ball in your arsenal, THAT is when you cue it up.

Now, we were terrible at it. Didn't seem to run anything like a cohesive play that ended with a decent look. But that was the execution, not the strategy.

Sorry Mtn but yesterday we went to stall ball too early and it was the true turning point in a disappointing loss. Stall ball is a great thing when used properly. Yesterday it wasn't used properly. Even the GOAT can make mistakes.

[elvis14]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5144729

Definitely check out the last 3-4 minutes of K's presser for his impassioned defense and celebration of Grayson who is sitting right next to him.

Anyone else have an issue where the video feed on goduke.com stops over and over again and has to be restarted? It's happening to me today as I try to watch the press conference and it's happened before as well. Takes an hour to watch a 10 minute video :(

[Atldukie79]

Anyone else have an issue where the video feed on goduke.com stops over and over again and has to be restarted? It's happening to me today as I try to watch the press conference and it's happened before as well. Takes an hour to watch a 10 minute video :(

I have given up on watching the Goduke videos. Since they revamped the site, I can't make it work. Surely it is my problem. I guess I need a tech nerd, or someone under 30, to figure out why.

[Henderson]

Anyone else have an issue where the video feed on goduke.com stops over and over again and has to be restarted? It's happening to me today as I try to watch the press conference and it's happened before as well. Takes an hour to watch a 10 minute video :(

I've had that experience, and it's always been when trying to watch a presser the day the game took place. Mostly very soon after the presser is put up on goduke.com. I assume it's a traffic-related issue that stretches the capacity of the goduke.com server. Lots of fans and journalists [Managing editor to sports writer: "Why should we pay for you to go to DC? Just watch the game on TV and catch the pressers online."]. If you can wait a few hours (or even until the next day), things seem to clear up.

[cspan37421]

Yesterday totally stunk, mostly because it seemed within reach. If MP3 just hits 1 of those 4 last FTs we win in regulation, if nothing else changes. Could he have taken off the mask for the FTs, and would it have mattered? Just lifting it up to his scalp or something. Anything. The first of those 4 seemed to miss everything (except the backboard), though someone here said he hit rim on all of them. Luke did have a decent look but was anything but squared up for it. Wonder if banking it in would have had a greater chance over the floater.

It's pretty clear that Grayson gets very few calls when he's driving the lane anymore, not to mention no longer the benefit of the doubt. I think we need to adjust to that. Some of those calls on our bigs were maddening. Chase's 5th was IMO a bad call, it should have been a charge. I only saw one angle though, and that was not from the side.

So while some stuff just seems plain unfair, one more basket or FT and we win in regulation, despite that dramatic offensive collapse. Truth is I think we'd be smoked today if we had played. I do think our guys were tired - on defense especially.

One bright spot is that Jeter and Obi showed themselves to be capable contributors. I do wish we hadn't waited so long, but again, I'm not seeing practice. It's a tough balancing act between guys who are too tired to be effective and guys whose practices (and early season brief appearances) indicate that their play may not be at an effective level yet. Pick your poison. Mine would be, give the bench guys a chance, they may surprise on the upside. It's NOT a given they'll play poorly, but it is a given that your starters need a breather. Besides, the other team may not have scouted them much!

The unfortunate thing I've seen of late is that when Jeter has contributed effectively, we've lost the game (UNC, ND). That's a roundabout way of indicating that when Jeter is in the game, it's because MP3 is hurt, in foul trouble, or otherwise ineffective. We need MP3 to be effective, so while Jeter contributing effectively is a welcome development, his being in the game much may have been a bad sign for how the game is going for our #1 big.

Hope we can win 2 in the NCAAs. I definitely think we can, and if we play at our best, I think we can win 3. Anything beyond 2 is gravy.

Extra gravy, please.

[Indoor66]

There's been some talk about not liking ND. I'll agree that two of their players were annoying today: Colston and Auguste. In fact Colston is always annoying. There was a point where I thought Auguste might get T'd up he was woofing so hard at our guys. GA would have been ejected. So yeah, I'm pretty upset about the loss and not liking ND and especially these two guys much at all.

So yeah, as I think about it and I think about tomorrows match up between NC and unCheat I can say that I will be rooting hard for...Notre Dame, you freaking idiots. NEVER EVER EVER ROOT FOR unCheat in ANY SPORT EVER. I hope UNC doesn't score a point, that Colston and Auguste go for about 80 and woof the whole time, and I can't wait to hear 'Ol Roy those his team under the bus after the game. 9F and 9F. Root against ND tomorrow, yo a** must be crazy. Aint nobody got time for that.

It is obvious to me that you mixed up your letter arrangement. I fixed your mistake.

[CDu]

While it would have been cool to see Duke beat ND for a change and get another crack at UNC, I'm partly relieved it didn't happen. I think UNC has been playing much better recently, especially with their guard play. I don't think it would have been that close, and even if Duke pulls out a win, they get rewarded to ANOTHER back to back game with either UVA or Miami - two more good, physical teams.

Then they get maybe three days off until they play whatever team they get saddled with in the first weekend.

The ACC Tournament would have been nice, but I'm more interested in a long NCAA run. Definitely getting out of the first weekend if at all possible.

Slight quibble, but we would have gotten 4 or 5 days off had we played in the ACC championship. Now we'll have 6 or 7 days off. The question is whether the extra 2 days of rest (when we were already going to get a lot of rest either way) is enough to offset the increased risk of losing in the first weekend. Had we won the ACC tournament, we'd have been a 3 seed or better. That would have meant playing a 14 or 15 seed in the first game and a 6/7 or 10/11 in the second game (if we win the first). Now, we'll likely be a 5 seed, which means we get a substantially tougher first game and we will very likely play a team as good or better than us in the second game. Does two days extra rest offset the substantially tougher path to the Sweet 16?

Obviously, it's moot now. But I was very much in the camp of wanting (badly) the ACC title. We've now gone 5 years since we've won any ACC crown, and 6 years since we won the ACC tourney. That's too long. And I think the benefits of winning the tournament (in terms of a much easier path to the Sweet 16) would offset the cost of losing two days of rest.

Hopefully the extra rest will do us good. Hopefully we'll get fortunate with our seeding and/or our path. We'll need all the help we can get, because we'll very likely need to beat a team as good or better than us to make it to the second weekend.

[elvis14]

It is obvious to me that you mixed up your letter arrangement. I fixed your mistake.

Haha, thanks for the corrections Indoor66. Teamwork at it's finest once again displayed on DBR! 9F

[Karl Beem]

Anyone else have an issue where the video feed on goduke.com stops over and over again and has to be restarted? It's happening to me today as I try to watch the press conference and it's happened before as well. Takes an hour to watch a 10 minute video :(

Same here. GoDuke video is the worst.

[jdc75]

I am fine with stalling or running clock when you have a lead late in the game as long as the ball is being moved with everyone getting touches. Moving the ball with quick smart passing and less dribbling would loosen up the defense. It makes them work and usually results in a higher percentage shot. UVA is brilliant at this.
What I dislike is wasting half of a possession with one guy dribbling 30 feet from the basket for 15-20 seconds while everyone stands around watching. At that point everyone in the arena knows what's coming next. Either Grayson or Brandon will be driving into the lane. Very often it ends with the shooter leaving his feet off balance and 2 or three defenders in his face. At that point you're left praying for a foul (the refs and everyone one else knows this) or making a circus shot. It's just way too predictable and pretty easy to defend.
At his press conference yesterday Coach K said that once again Grayson was our battering ram. Maybe that's the problem in losing these games late. Too much one on five dribble drives hoping for fouls.
I still love this team and I absolutely love how K stood up for Grayson. He is indeed an insane competitor, warrior and a great player.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry Mtn but yesterday we went to stall ball too early and it was the true turning point in a disappointing loss. Stall ball is a great thing when used properly. Yesterday it wasn't used properly. Even the GOAT can make mistakes.

I'm just as disappointed as you are with the loss, and I'm not saying K is flawless. What I'm saying is, under those circumstances, there wasn't much choice. Our players were tired and injured and in foul trouble. We pulled out of the offense that had been effective and took the air out of the ball. If we hit two shots in the course of 11 minutes, we aren't having this conversation.

[fuse]

I don't get the Notre Dame hate, either.

Do I want to see us lose (to any other team)? No.

I believe Notre Dame has brought a lot to the conference, and it's good to have competition shake things up.

[superdave]

I have been absolutely amazed at the way in which Notre Dame has really trampled us over the last couple of years. Yeah, we beat them in Cameron last year, but that didn't make up for the beat down we suffered in the ACC tourney.

What is it about Brey that makes this happen? He isn't a HOF coach (at least not yet). We've played other former Duke assistants and never, ever had our butts whipped the way we have against Notre Dame. Would love to hear someone's theory.

Spread us out, drive and kick, then crash the boards. He hits Duke's two biggest vulnerabilities with this gameplan. Brey has also had the personnel to pull it off the last 3 years.

[killerleft]

Coach K talked about Obi during the post-game press conference today saying that Obi has been struggling with bad legs (knees?) and hasn't been able to contribute much, but is doing better now and can now compete for minutes.

It's great to finally know this, but it could have been said a while ago. Stay healthy, Sean Obi. We'd like to know you better.

On the downside, sounds like a chronic issue to me.

[Matches]

Obviously, it's moot now. But I was very much in the camp of wanting (badly) the ACC title. We've now gone 5 years since we've won any ACC crown, and 6 years since we won the ACC tourney. That's too long. And I think the benefits of winning the tournament (in terms of a much easier path to the Sweet 16) would offset the cost of losing two days of rest.



Only 5 since the last ACCT title - we won in 2011. 6 years since we last won a share of the regular season.

I always felt like winning the ACCT was a long shot this year, esp. once we missed out on the double bye. 4 games in 4 days with limited personnel just didn't seem all that do-able. Hopefully the extra rest will do us good.

[84crazy]

Really encouraging to see Jeter and Obi play so well yesterday, this team can't be counted out yet! I see a lot now saying they doubt we can win 6 in a row, but I look at it as we need to win two in a row three times LOL. And if these two guys can keep improving our greatest weaknesses are not so weak anymore. When we are making shots I don't think any other team can out score us. If Thornton can just give us a little O to go with that defense watch out. And shake it off Luke, seize the day.

[Troublemaker]

I have been absolutely amazed at the way in which Notre Dame has really trampled us over the last couple of years. Yeah, we beat them in Cameron last year, but that didn't make up for the beat down we suffered in the ACC tourney.

What is it about Brey that makes this happen? He isn't a HOF coach (at least not yet). We've played other former Duke assistants and never, ever had our butts whipped the way we have against Notre Dame. Would love to hear someone's theory.

It's mostly a small sample thing. I would imagine as Duke and ND play more games in coming years, Duke will eventually pull ahead in the head-to-head.

That said, what superdave says below is also accurate. ND's had very talented guards over the past couple of years, and they give them space to operate, and those two things can cause Duke (and most other teams) issues.


Spread us out, drive and kick, then crash the boards. He hits Duke's two biggest vulnerabilities with this gameplan. Brey has also had the personnel to pull it off the last 3 years.

[BandAlum83]

No- Duke had a history for a while of blowing 17 point leads and it has become an inside joke. It probably started with this truly epic collapse. After that people always got nervous up 17 and Duke in stall ball.



Mar. 22, 1998 – Top-seeded Duke appeared well on the way to delivering another crushing defeat to second-seeded Kentucky six years after the famous game in Philadelphia.

This meeting, played in the Tropicana Dome in St. Petersburg, was for the South regional championship. And with Duke up 17 with 12 minutes to play, the Blue Devils appeared poised to earn a trip to the Final Four in San Antonio.

But Kentucky, which had played in the two previous national title games (winning in 1996 and losing to Arizona in 1997), still had some fight left. Keyed by guards Wayne Turner and Jeff Sheppard, the ‘Cats reeled off a 17-3 run to get back in the game. The score was tied at 81-all with just over two minutes left when Scott Padgett hit a 3-pointer from the top of the key to give Kentucky the lead.

Duke, which got strong performances from Trajan Langdon and Roshown McLeod, had one final chance, getting the ball back with just under five seconds left, down two. This time, there would be no Christian Laettner miracle – freshman Will Avery launched a running shot from 35-feet out, but it missed badly and Kentucky was able to escape with an 86-84 victory

http://scottfowlerobs.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-8-points-in-17-seconds-is-still-no1.html

No.1 -- EIGHT POINTS IN 17 SECONDS. To me, this comeback remains the series' best, because it came without the benefit of the three-pointer. UNC was down eight to Duke with 17 seconds to go. But the Tar Heels kept scoring, stealing the ball and scoring again. Still, they needed a missed Duke free throw and a BANKED Walter Davis shot from about 30 feet to force the overtime, which they then won.

I assume you must know of this one.

[Henderson]

Hey, BA83: Wasn't that you on the game chat proclaiming that Duke would own the second half and imploring others to say it with you? Love the enthusiasm, but....

[devildeac]

I don't get the Notre Dame hate, either.

Do I want to see us lose (to any other team)? No.

I believe Notre Dame has brought a lot to the conference, and it's good to have competition shake things up.

I think most recently it comes from Brey donning that POS unc hat and publicly rooting for them over Duke despite his prior affiliation w/Duke and K. From our perspective, it'd been better if he'd kept the ugly hat in his drawer and sat in his office and cheered for the holes quietly and privately. Think Hurley/Amaker/JD or others putting on a t-shirt of a long hated (and cheating) rival so they'd beat Duke and ASU/Hahvahd/Stanford would get a better seeding or they wouldn't have to play/coach against Duke/K in their next game.

Others have a long dislike for ND due to football, their "failure" to fully join the acc for football.

Auguste and his posturing, physical and verbal, certainly doesn't help either, especially considering a number of folks couldn't believe he didn't get a warning/T for his repeated crap.

[daveduke76]

Taking the air out of the ball too soon is Basketballs version of the Prevent Defense in Football. Duke doesn't usually do well when they run the shot clock down and then throw up a prayer. I thought those possessions took the gas out of us - running down the clock seemed to begin our demise

[BandAlum83]

Hey, BA83: Wasn't that you on the game chat proclaiming that Duke would own the second half and imploring others to say it with you? Love the enthusiasm, but...

That it was, Henderson. The power of focused intent is undeniable. We needed more of the positive and much less of the negative I was seeing in that chat room.

This is my first year finding these boards. I have seen some comment that they don't like to be in the chat room during games due to negativity and ref whining. I'm not going to give up on it yet.

[Henderson]

I think most recently it comes from Brey donning that POS unc hat and publicly rooting for them over Duke despite his prior affiliation w/Duke and K. From our perspective, it'd been better if he'd kept the ugly hat in his drawer and sat in his office and cheered for the holes quietly and privately. Think Hurley/Amaker/JD or others putting on a t-shirt of a long hated (and cheating) rival so they'd beat Duke and ASU/Hahvahd/Stanford would get a better seeding or they wouldn't have to play/coach against Duke/K in their next game.

Others have a long dislike for ND due to football, their "failure" to fully join the acc for football.

Auguste and his posturing, physical and verbal, certainly doesn't help either, especially considering a number of folks couldn't believe he didn't get a warning/T for his repeated crap.

I'll confess: I like ND. I like Mike Brey. And I'm OK with the over-the-top enthusiasm of Auguste. He lit a fire, and it worked. If he were a Duke player in comparable circumstances (see GA in the NCAA finals last year), I'd applaud him. That's how the us vs. them thing works in college basketball.

I do not like UNC-CH. The idea that a Duke fan would root for UNC-CH against ND is foreign to me. Losing to the eventual ACC champion is better than losing to the team that got punked by UNC-CH. And really: Can you be a Duke fan and root for Carolina? I say no.

Speaking of Mike Brey, if The Sopranos ever come back, the casting director should go see Mike. Watch his post-game presser and tell me he wouldn't be a natural.

[dukelifer]

http://scottfowlerobs.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-8-points-in-17-seconds-is-still-no1.html

No.1 -- EIGHT POINTS IN 17 SECONDS. To me, this comeback remains the series' best, because it came without the benefit of the three-pointer. UNC was down eight to Duke with 17 seconds to go. But the Tar Heels kept scoring, stealing the ball and scoring again. Still, they needed a missed Duke free throw and a BANKED Walter Davis shot from about 30 feet to force the overtime, which they then won.

I assume you must know of this one.

Didn't see it - but for friends that did it is forever burnt into their memories.

[oldnavy]

Didn't see it - but for friends that did it is forever burnt into their memories.

I cried like a baby (I was 12) and went outside and slammed my basketball against the side of my house for about ten minutes.... it didn't help at all!

Finally, in the past few years we are not hearing about this game EVERY SINGLE TIME WE PLAY UNC!!! It still comes up, which is fair.... but for about 40 years, it was brought up each time we played UNC.

Folks have to remember the context of this game.... first, we were not favored or had been favored for years against UNC, so this would have be a steal for us...
Second this was during a time when Duke was not very good, nor had been for a while, especially since I had come of age and become a Duke fan... so I was sooooo looking forward to having some bragging rights for one of the very few times in my life up to that point.

To watch that win vanish like that was pure psychological torture.... it is one of the few clear memories that I have of 1974....

BUT... silver lining and all that, it has given me a perspective to enjoy and to not take for granted what we have now!!

[Saratoga2]

A lot of contributors are using stall ball as a key to why we went cold and ND heated up. What was happening is that ND also went to an active MTM defense and we were unable to handle it. We were ineffective at penetrating and were shooting poorly from 3. Yes we tried to beat the MTM with Brandon and Grayson getting shots from the typical screen play we run but that was well defended. Luke couldn't buy a shot and inside we have never been a real low post team. Add the poor FT shooting and poor rebounding in that stretch with a few turnovers and a hostile crowd and it looked like we folded. We had a similar fold in the Louisville game.

The fact that Chase and Sean gave us good minutes is a positive. Clearly the thought there is no bench looks suspect under the circumstances. (What about Vrank as well?) Maybe we can play some MTM with out bench a little deeper.

I also agree with those who feel that we need Luke to be more effective on offense to win. We got no scoring from him after the early going and he is too good a player to be shut down like that. He took 6 threes and may have gotten down on himself for missing so many shots. I have said it before and was criticized for it, Luke would do better with more arc on the ball. The low trajectory shots have less chance of going in. Luke did put a 3 in but it was when ND fouled Brandon so it got waved off.

[KandG]

Taking the air out of the ball too soon is Basketballs version of the Prevent Defense in Football. Duke doesn't usually do well when they run the shot clock down and then throw up a prayer.

Have seen a whole lot of moaning about stall ball in this thread, and it's making me positively nostalgic. Unfortunately, reality doesn't match this narrative of the team "taking the air out of the ball".

Did the team lose its zip after it went up 16 points, especially when the bigs got into foul trouble? Sure it did. But I looked at the 13 possessions Duke had starting at the 11 minute mark when the score was 64-48, all the way to when Notre Dame completed a 19-2 run and went up 67-66 with 2:32 left.

Of those 13 possessions, only 5 involved a shot with under 10 seconds left on the shot clock. Ball movement and player movement off the ball was actually OK for the majority of those possessions: only a possession ending at 4:01 with a Grayson 3 with 5 seconds left on the clock could be classified as terribly stagnant.

The reality is also that the team generally got the ball to the top of the key to initiate something by the 20 second mark in most cases. None of this dribbling near the half court line for 25 seconds and then handing it off to Grayson or Brandon to ISO which people associate with extreme stall ball.

The real issue was that ND started pressuring our guards, especially Thornton and Kennard, much tighter on the ball, while still shading their overall defense toward Grayson. As Al Featherston summarized in his excellent front page piece this morning, a key sequence was around the 9:34 mark, when Matt Jones missed a floater and Thornton missed consecutive jumpers with plenty of time on the clock after offensive rebounds. When we couldn't convert anything there, Vastoria got a transition layup and that started ND's run for real.

Kennard had a bad turnover and near turnover, Thornton had a turnover off a botched pick and roll, and Ingram had a turnover in ND's run. All these turnovers occurred with plenty of time left on the clock, and the near turnover slowed down the possession enough to result in a forced shot with little left on the clock.

Duke's sin was not stall ball. It was bad or rushed execution by young players, missed FTs, and a couple of bad breaks. Plus very good Notre Dame defense.

If I could have anything back, I wish Brandon had made his 2nd FT with the team up 70-67, and that Matt hadn't lost Beacham on the tying 3 pointer. That was an uncharacteristic lapse on D for Matt, and I grimaced as soon as I saw him in the paint while Beacham got behind him.

It was painful to rewatch the breakdown, but I have to say I saw quite a few positives. Our defense was actually quite good until roughly the six minute mark, when the fatigue and anxiety caused by empty possessions really seemed to get to the players (as K said, the offensive failures affected the defense), and the team started losing ND's shooters.

If the 6-7 days of rest has an impact, I'm looking forward to seeing the team apply the progress it made in these two games to next weekend. I'll worry a bit about our experience and fatigue, because I worry by nature, and this *is* a young team. But I won't worry about stall ball.

[dukelifer]

I cried like a baby (I was 12) and went outside and slammed my basketball against the side of my house for about ten minutes... it didn't help at all!

Finally, in the past few years we are not hearing about this game EVERY SINGLE TIME WE PLAY UNC!!! It still comes up, which is fair... but for about 40 years, it was brought up each time we played UNC.

Folks have to remember the context of this game... first, we were not favored or had been favored for years against UNC, so this would have be a steal for us...
Second this was during a time when Duke was not very good, nor had been for a while, especially since I had come of age and become a Duke fan... so I was sooooo looking forward to having some bragging rights for one of the very few times in my life up to that point.

To watch that win vanish like that was pure psychological torture... it is one of the few clear memories that I have of 1974...

BUT... silver lining and all that, it has given me a perspective to enjoy and to not take for granted what we have now!!

UNC stole a number of games away from Duke after that and for that reason I always fear/respect UNC. Many of my UNC friends fear/respect Duke in the same irrational way. I am also irrationally convinced UNC will win the NC most every year - including this one- and I celebrate (quietly) every time they stumble.

[killerleft]

An excellent private university with top-notch academic and research facilities attracting the best and brightest students in the country (and some pretty high SATs to match).

A well respected and clean athletic program.

An emotional, demonstrative, excellent basketball player people love to hate and complain about.

National Championships in multiple sports (men's and women's).

A perceived lily-white, entitled, privileged student body.

Beautiful campus dominated by a place of worship as its centerpiece.

Highly regarded graduate schools with alumni in positions of leadership throughout the country.

Whats' not to hate?

Some people on this board need to see the irony of their ND hatred.

I have great respect for ND. I almost went there. My brother went there. The brother of my sophomore year roommate went there. If you want to hate on a place, hate on the university up the road I used to respect until i found it was all a sham for what, 18 years?

Anybody booing Grayson yesterday is on my list today. Notre Dameons and Chappaheeyans are high on that list. Miamics and Hooters, too. Maybe we can do some payback on at least one of them before the month is out. 'Great respect' and Notre Dame in the same sentence sounds ironic to me right now. Maybe I'll let go of it soon, maybe not.

[JWA71]

In 43 seconds, from 10:40 - 9:57, Chase Jeter picked up fouls 3 and 4 and MP3 picked up foul 4. The refs weren't great, but those guys need to understand the situation and just tall up and not foul. The game changed right there.

At 9:57 in the second half, up 64-59, Plumlee picked up his 4th foul. Plumlee, Jeter and Ingram all had four fouls at that point, halfway through the second half. We had done a great job on the boards up until that point, but ND controlled the boards down the stretch. Foul trouble was a huge factor as our front-court players had to be cautious.

I knew we would have a tough time holding that lead but hoped that we could hold on and win. Unfortunately, we were too tired to be effective against ND's man-to-man defense.

Jim

[luvdahops]

I think most recently it comes from Brey donning that POS unc hat and publicly rooting for them over Duke despite his prior affiliation w/Duke and K. From our perspective, it'd been better if he'd kept the ugly hat in his drawer and sat in his office and cheered for the holes quietly and privately. Think Hurley/Amaker/JD or others putting on a t-shirt of a long hated (and cheating) rival so they'd beat Duke and ASU/Hahvahd/Stanford would get a better seeding or they wouldn't have to play/coach against Duke/K in their next game.

Others have a long dislike for ND due to football, their "failure" to fully join the acc for football.

Auguste and his posturing, physical and verbal, certainly doesn't help either, especially considering a number of folks couldn't believe he didn't get a warning/T for his repeated crap.

A couple of big distinctions to note here. First, unlike Hurley/Amaker/JD, Brey neither went to Duke or played for K. He was an assistant for us for 8 (mostly excellent) years. Also, none of the others mentioned coach a team in the ACC, with all of the particular challenges that that entails. Personally, I have no problem with him rooting for UNC last Saturday under the circumstances.

Mike Brey is a good guy and a good coach. He is also very much his own man.

[ncexnyc]

Anybody booing Grayson yesterday is on my list today. Notre Dameons and Chappaheeyans are high on that list. Miamics and Hooters, too. Maybe we can do some payback on at least one of them before the month is out. 'Great respect' and Notre Dame in the same sentence sounds ironic to me right now. Maybe I'll let go of it soon, maybe not.
Repeat after me, "ABC, ABC, ABC."

[FerryFor50]

Anybody booing Grayson yesterday is on my list today. Notre Dameons and Chappaheeyans are high on that list. Miamics and Hooters, too. Maybe we can do some payback on at least one of them before the month is out. 'Great respect' and Notre Dame in the same sentence sounds ironic to me right now. Maybe I'll let go of it soon, maybe not.

Also, any team that bum rushes a player on a foul where it's obvious that the fouler was trying to hold the foulee to keep them from getting hurt.

[ncexnyc]

A lot of contributors are using stall ball as a key to why we went cold and ND heated up. What was happening is that ND also went to an active MTM defense and we were unable to handle it. We were ineffective at penetrating and were shooting poorly from 3. Yes we tried to beat the MTM with Brandon and Grayson getting shots from the typical screen play we run but that was well defended. Luke couldn't buy a shot and inside we have never been a real low post team. Add the poor FT shooting and poor rebounding in that stretch with a few turnovers and a hostile crowd and it looked like we folded. We had a similar fold in the Louisville game.

The fact that Chase and Sean gave us good minutes is a positive. Clearly the thought there is no bench looks suspect under the circumstances. (What about Vrank as well?) Maybe we can play some MTM with out bench a little deeper.

I also agree with those who feel that we need Luke to be more effective on offense to win. We got no scoring from him after the early going and he is too good a player to be shut down like that. He took 6 threes and may have gotten down on himself for missing so many shots. I have said it before and was criticized for it, Luke would do better with more arc on the ball. The low trajectory shots have less chance of going in. Luke did put a 3 in but it was when ND fouled Brandon so it got waved off.

I watched the game and listened to Coach K's presser in the wee hours of the morning and it seems your first point jives with what K said during his interview.

Both Chase and Obi did play well yesterday, however the last time I saw Obi in any game action I thought I would have no trouble beating him in a foot race.
Yesterday, Obi did provide us with the rebounding we thought we'd be getting from him when he decided to come to Duke and that's definitely a positive going forward. My only regret is that Coach K decided to roll the dice with one of the players we could least afford to lose and inserted MP3 back into the first half with over ten minutes left to play and MP3 already being saddled with two fouls.

Last week I said we'd only do well in both of the tourneys if Luke and Derryck contributed. Solid game from Luke against State, not so great a game against ND. As for Derryck, it's gotten to the point where every time he launches a 3, I cringe. I'd much rather see him attack the basket as he seems to be immune to the problem most freshman PG's tend to have and that's getting caught in no-mans land.

I honestly don't believe we can win the NCAA's, the young players are to up and down. I do however believe we can do some serious damage and I firmly believe we're the team that the other teams would rather see in someone else's bracket.

[CDu]

Last week I said we'd only do well in both of the tourneys if Luke and Derryck contributed. Solid game from Luke against State, not so great a game against ND. As for Derryck, it's gotten to the point where every time he launches a 3, I cringe. I'd much rather see him attack the basket as he seems to be immune to the problem most freshman PG's tend to have and that's getting caught in no-mans land.

I think just as important as the production of Kennard and Thornton (if not moreso) is the availability of Ingram and Plumlee. When those two guys got in foul trouble, our defense became toast. Coach K had to go back to them, but they they didn't do a good job of playing smartly aggressive thereafter. They both were tentative and/or nonexistent defensively.

If those two guys don't get in serious foul trouble yesterday, I think we still win. Even with bad games by Kennard and Thornton. Even with a rough day from Ingram. We just were completely decimated, and having to sit both of those guys allowed Notre Dame's bigs to dominate the glass.

We have the talent to beat anyone. But we don't have a huge margin for error against really good teams.

[killerleft]

Repeat after me, "ABC, ABC, ABC."

Don't have to repeat THAT. Got it down pat.

[BandAlum83]

I watched the game and listened to Coach K's presser in the wee hours of the morning and it seems your first point jives with what K said during his interview.

Both Chase and Obi did play well yesterday, however the last time I saw Obi in any game action I thought I would have no trouble beating him in a foot race.
Yesterday, Obi did provide us with the rebounding we thought we'd be getting from him when he decided to come to Duke and that's definitely a positive going forward. My only regret is that Coach K decided to roll the dice with one of the players we could least afford to lose and inserted MP3 back into the first half with over ten minutes left to play and MP3 already being saddled with two fouls.

Last week I said we'd only do well in both of the tourneys if Luke and Derryck contributed. Solid game from Luke against State, not so great a game against ND. As for Derryck, it's gotten to the point where every time he launches a 3, I cringe. I'd much rather see him attack the basket as he seems to be immune to the problem most freshman PG's tend to have and that's getting caught in no-mans land.

I honestly don't believe we can win the NCAA's, the young players are to up and down. I do however believe we can do some serious damage and I firmly believe we're the team that the other teams would rather see in someone else's bracket.


I love DTs speed and lateral quickness. He has a special ability to drive and finish strong with what seem to be circus shots, but after watching are clearly part of a spectacular repertoire of tough to make shots.

[Doria]

I think just as important as the production of Kennard and Thornton (if not moreso) is the availability of Ingram and Plumlee. When those two guys got in foul trouble, our defense became toast. Coach K had to go back to them, but they they didn't do a good job of playing smartly aggressive thereafter. They both were tentative and/or nonexistent defensively.

If those two guys don't get in serious foul trouble yesterday, I think we still win. Even with bad games by Kennard and Thornton. Even with a rough day from Ingram. We just were completely decimated, and having to sit both of those guys allowed Notre Dame's bigs to dominate the glass.

We have the talent to beat anyone. But we don't have a huge margin for error against really good teams.

I agree with all of this. Stall ball might arguably have hurt our offense, but I can't second guess the decision with a tired, thin team. I do think, though, that our defense was the largest contributor to the eventual loss. Even before Marshall fouled out, Notre Dame got baskets where it was clear that whichever Duke player was guarding them, they couldn't afford to really body up or challenge the shot. Obviously, once Marshall fouled out, it got worse, but the foul trouble really hurt the aggressive defense that forced turnovers and allowed us to build that lead. (Kennard and Thornton not hitting reliably did hurt, but they were getting good looks, and with continued defense, I also believe that we narrowly win.)

While I often cheer for the team that beat us to lose, I have zero decision to make about whether to cheer for them over Carolina. I was a bit disappointed, though not surprised, that VT couldn't quite overcome Miami (whom I also hate, but hope will lose to UVA). If Notre Dame goes to the finals, I will probably pull for them against Miami, but not against UVA. Clearly, if Carolina is in the finals, the choice will already be decided for me.

[CDu]

I agree with all of this. Stall ball might arguably have hurt our offense, but I can't second guess the decision with a tired, thin team. I do think, though, that our defense was the largest contributor to the eventual loss. Even before Marshall fouled out, Notre Dame got baskets where it was clear that whichever Duke player was guarding them, they couldn't afford to really body up or challenge the shot. Obviously, once Marshall fouled out, it got worse, but the foul trouble really hurt the aggressive defense that forced turnovers and allowed us to build that lead. (Kennard and Thornton not hitting reliably did hurt, but they were getting good looks, and with continued defense, I also believe that we narrowly win.)

And I'll go a step further and say that stall ball had very little to do with the loss, as we played very little actual stall ball. We just did a horrific job of execution once Notre Dame switched back to man-to-man. As someone posted upthread, very few of our possessions qualified as true stall ball possessions in the last 10 minutes. They changed defenses, we were tired, and we didn't handle that switch very well.

Heck, if we just hit one more shot, we might well have won even with the foul trouble and the struggles of Plumlee, Kennard, Ingram, and Thornton. If Ingram hits the second free throw late to make it a 4-point game, maybe that cushion causes Notre Dame to panic down 2 possessions. Or maybe, they simply fail to score anyway like they did the rest of regulation.

[Tripping William]

And I'll go a step further and say that stall ball had very little to do with the loss, as we played very little actual stall ball. We just did a horrific job of execution once Notre Dame switched back to man-to-man. As someone posted upthread, very few of our possessions qualified as true stall ball possessions in the last 10 minutes. They changed defenses, we were tired, and we didn't handle that switch very well.

Heck, if we just hit one more shot, we might well have won even with the foul trouble and the struggles of Plumlee, Kennard, Ingram, and Thornton. If Ingram hits the second free throw late to make it a 4-point game, maybe that cushion causes Notre Dame to panic down 2 possessions. Or maybe, they simply fail to score anyway like they did the rest of regulation.

Yep, especially if that shot had been Kennard's at the regulation buzzer.

[oldnavy]

And I'll go a step further and say that stall ball had very little to do with the loss, as we played very little actual stall ball. We just did a horrific job of execution once Notre Dame switched back to man-to-man. As someone posted upthread, very few of our possessions qualified as true stall ball possessions in the last 10 minutes. They changed defenses, we were tired, and we didn't handle that switch very well.

Heck, if we just hit one more shot, we might well have won even with the foul trouble and the struggles of Plumlee, Kennard, Ingram, and Thornton. If Ingram hits the second free throw late to make it a 4-point game, maybe that cushion causes Notre Dame to panic down 2 possessions. Or maybe, they simply fail to score anyway like they did the rest of regulation.

Thornton had two really good looks at the top of the key, but they just wouldn't drop for him...

I don't think this loss can be attributed to anything other than poor execution on offense as well as ND's increased intensity that we couldn't or at least didn't match.

Blaming the loss on our slowing down the offense really doesn't give ND the credit they deserve and I don't think is a fair assessment of what actually happened.

Give them credit, they took it too us over the last 10 minutes or so and we went COLD from the floor.... the "perfect storm" if you will... happens (fortunately for us not all that often).

[hudlow]

Don't have to repeat THAT. Got it down pat.

I don't like ND and especially The Cheats...

I hope UNC loses tonight and ND in the finals tomorrow night - and they both get beaten severely in the first round of The NCAAT.

ABC

[Indoor66]

I don't like ND and especially The Cheats...

I hope UNC loses tonight and ND in the finals tomorrow night - and they both get beaten severely in the first round of The NCAAT.

ABC

I'm a little confused. Could you clarify how you really feel about them? :confused::cool:

[FerryFor50]

In case you didn't see it, here's the love Grayson got at the end of the ND game.

https://twitter.com/BlueDevil_NTWRK/status/708172944984268800

[DukieInBrasil]

seemed to me that the game started going downhill when Ingram made that lazy inbounds pass that was stolen by ND and they drew the foul for 2 FTs. Ingram has had at least one incredibly dumb, lazy play that has cost Duke either a fast break or an easy opportunity for the other team.
The team played amazing basketball, coupled with inexplicably bad ball control by ND, for the first 30 minutes. Then the wheels came off. This team just has such an incredibly low margin for error.
The first half gave us some great play from guys we have rarely seen this year, Jeter and Obi. Wonder what it might be like to have had them play just a little bit more in every game of the year. Maybe the wheels wouldn't have come off due to having 6 guys play nearly every available minute.

[CDu]

I think I may have also said that we have a low margin of error, but I am actually thinking of amending that statement.

Yesterday's game couldn't have been played much worse offensively than we played. Thornton, Ingram, and Kennard all shot very poorly. Plumlee was a nonfactor. Plumlee, Jeter, and Ingram all got in severe foul trouble, forcing us to go to Obi and also to spend a decent chunk of the game with four guards on the floor. We had long stretches of the game where we couldn't score. And in spite of all that, we STILL were in position to win the game late.

I think we have a fairly wide margin for error. We just happened to have a game yesterday that was extraordinarily poor. It was an anomaly that we were up 16 despite not playing well, but then we really bottomed out.

What we really have is a wide variance. Aside from Allen, all the others are highly volatile in terms of production. When we are on, we are almost unguardable. But when we are off, we are REALLY off.

[oldnavy]

I think I may have also said that we have a low margin of error, but I am actually thinking of amending that statement.

Yesterday's game couldn't have been played much worse offensively than we played. Thornton, Ingram, and Kennard all shot very poorly. Plumlee was a nonfactor. Plumlee, Jeter, and Ingram all got in severe foul trouble, forcing us to go to Obi and also to spend a decent chunk of the game with four guards on the floor. We had long stretches of the game where we couldn't score. And in spite of all that, we STILL were in position to win the game late.

I think we have a fairly wide margin for error. We just happened to have a game yesterday that was extraordinarily poor. It was an anomaly that we were up 16 despite not playing well, but then we really bottomed out.

What we really have is a wide variance. Aside from Allen, all the others are highly volatile in terms of production. When we are on, we are almost unguardable. But when we are off, we are REALLY off.


Good points and let's not forget that we were up that much in large part to ND being really, really bad during the first 30 minutes of the game.

It was the perfect storm of events that led to the large lead and that also lead to the loss of the large lead... really an unusual game in that regard....

[fraggler]

I think I may have also said that we have a low margin of error, but I am actually thinking of amending that statement.

Yesterday's game couldn't have been played much worse offensively than we played. Thornton, Ingram, and Kennard all shot very poorly. Plumlee was a nonfactor. Plumlee, Jeter, and Ingram all got in severe foul trouble, forcing us to go to Obi and also to spend a decent chunk of the game with four guards on the floor. We had long stretches of the game where we couldn't score. And in spite of all that, we STILL were in position to win the game late.

I think we have a fairly wide margin for error. We just happened to have a game yesterday that was extraordinarily poor. It was an anomaly that we were up 16 despite not playing well, but then we really bottomed out.

What we really have is a wide variance. Aside from Allen, all the others are highly volatile in terms of production. When we are on, we are almost unguardable. But when we are off, we are REALLY off.

Really good stuff. Hopefully, we got the stinker out of us and we can string together another stretch of games where we are clicking on O. Really just need two of our scoring threats to be on, and the rest to not be horrible to have a great shot at the Sweet Sixteen and hopefully beyond.

[Devilwin]

Holes up 19 at the half. So far, so good.

[weezie]

Hahaha! That's funny.

Hhhmmm, I wonder if K is returning Brey's favor by also pulling for the holes. :D

[sagegrouse]

Holes up 19 at the half. So far, so good.

Notre Dame was doing penance in the first half for the theft of the game yesterday.

[MartyClark]

Hate to say it but Carolina looks really good. In a perverse way, I'm happy Duke is not playing them tonight.

[FerryFor50]

Notre Dame was doing penance in the first half for the theft of the game yesterday.

They are currently down by almost three Touchdown Jesuses.

[jipops]

I think I may have also said that we have a low margin of error, but I am actually thinking of amending that statement.

Yesterday's game couldn't have been played much worse offensively than we played. Thornton, Ingram, and Kennard all shot very poorly. Plumlee was a nonfactor. Plumlee, Jeter, and Ingram all got in severe foul trouble, forcing us to go to Obi and also to spend a decent chunk of the game with four guards on the floor. We had long stretches of the game where we couldn't score. And in spite of all that, we STILL were in position to win the game late.

I think we have a fairly wide margin for error. We just happened to have a game yesterday that was extraordinarily poor. It was an anomaly that we were up 16 despite not playing well, but then we really bottomed out.

What we really have is a wide variance. Aside from Allen, all the others are highly volatile in terms of production. When we are on, we are almost unguardable. But when we are off, we are REALLY off.

Unfortunately, ever since the 2nd Louisville game we've been putting up a lot of stinkers on offense. State and FSU were the exceptions. I'm concerned that our offense is continuing to trend down. And this team is not going to be known for it's D. Sure we can still stay in games shooting under 40%. But we can pretty much lose to anyone that way as well. Overall fatigue for such a young team that has put in heavy minutes has really been taking it's toll.

[Tripping William]

They are currently down by almost three Touchdown Jesuses.

They scored 47 points in the second half yesterday. Less than that in the entire game tonight. Sheesh.

[killerleft]

They scored 47 points in the second half yesterday. Less than that in the entire game tonight. Sheesh.

The Curse of the Cap?:)

[Devilwin]

I must admit, felt sick pulling for them last night. But after ND players and their head coach showed no respect for Duke, was glad to see the Holes put a beat down on them. We should have beaten them, but oh well. Now, it's back to hating UNC, but first, gotta take two showers and a dose of Alka Seltzer, because, I feel so unclean.

[uh_no]

I must admit, felt sick pulling for them last night. But after ND players and their head coach showed no respect for Duke, was glad to see the Holes put a beat down on them. We should have beaten them, but oh well. Now, it's back to hating UNC, but first, gotta take two showers and a dose of Alka Seltzer, because, I feel so unclean.

wait...maybe i missed it, but how did ND players and coach show no respect for duke? What crime did they commit other than beating us and cheering for UNC in a situation where it benefitted them

[Devilwin]

Woofing constantly at our guys, and the worst was Brey's comment to the official that Coach K's always talking, said in a snarky way. Now I dunno where you come from, but where I hail from that was a bit disrespectful. A blind man can see it.

[weezie]

I must admit, felt sick pulling for them last night...I feel so unclean.

Now, now Devilwin, it's going to be ok. There's "pulling" for them and then there's sitting on the couch flipping over between tivoed episodes of Billions and catching a glimpse of the score and being satisfied in a perverse sort of way. Letting it slide by, paying little attention.

It's all over now and behind you. Eyes forward, March!

[Troublemaker]

I have said it before and was criticized for it, Luke would do better with more arc on the ball. The low trajectory shots have less chance of going in.

Malcolm Brogdon shoots a flat shot and hits 42% from three.

All great shooters have slightly different strokes and slightly different arcs from each other.

There are limits to what internet fans can know about the team and limits to how much internet fans can help the team.

[Saratoga2]

Malcolm Brogdon shoots a flat shot and hits 42% from three.

All great shooters have slightly different strokes and slightly different arcs from each other.

There are limits to what internet fans can know about the team and limits to how much internet fans can help the team.

His flat shot wasn't going in last night. I noticed that and wondered how he gets it in at such a high percentage. Steph Curry shoots with more arc and gets it in at a historic rate. I believe the angle of incidence of the ball with the hoop is important to high percentage shooting. If you have to be more perfect with your shot to be successful, then you are likely to be inconsistent on nights where you are a little off. What LUke is doing is showing inconsistency and I'll agree it could be for a variety of reasons but arc may be one of those.

[cspan37421]

A flat-arc shot has less of a margin for error. That's a fact, not opinion.

I saw a show in which someone claimed to have figured out the "optimal" arc - IIRC it was something like 53 degrees - but declaring something "optimal" might be starting to enter the realm of opinion.

[uh_no]

His flat shot wasn't going in last night. I noticed that and wondered how he gets it in at such a high percentage. Steph Curry shoots with more arc and gets it in at a historic rate. I believe the angle of incidence of the ball with the hoop is important to high percentage shooting. If you have to be more perfect with your shot to be successful, then you are likely to be inconsistent on nights where you are a little off. What LUke is doing is showing inconsistency and I'll agree it could be for a variety of reasons but arc may be one of those.

the higher the arc above 45 degrees, the more a a small deviation in angle affects the area a ball falls in, though obviously, the lower the angle, the smaller the area in which the ball will pass through the hoop.

Almost assuredly there is some optimal angle for any given distance from the hoop where you can have a maximal error in either angle or initial velocity and still expect the ball to go in. If I didn't have a bunch of stuff to do, I'd actually calculate it (well there you go...i calculated it.). The outline would be:

1) assume the player releases the ball at ~10' high. It's probably marginally less than that, but not enough to make a significant difference, but significantly simplifies the math.
2) express the distance the ball travels in terms of angle and initial velocity: protip...it's d=v^2 * sin(2*theta) / g
3) calculate for any given angle what are the distance ranges which it will go through the hoop.
A mens ball is 9.5 inches. The hoop is 18". This means for a given angle theta, the deviation from center which can be tolerated for the ball to still go in is
y= 9 - (4.75 / tan(theta), and the minimum theta is when y=0...or about 27.8 degrees.
4) find the change in distance from a small deviation in theta...take the partial derivative of d with respect to theta... d'= 2 * v^2 / g * cos(2*theta). If we plug in a theta here, it tells us how far our shot will deviate in d for a given unit change in theta
5) find the metric we are trying to optimize. In this case, we want to minimize the distance deviation at the shot angle while maximizing the distances in which the ball will go in. Our metric is thus m=d'/y, which means our best bet is when the ratio of deviation to allowable error is at its lowest
6) take the partial derivative of m with respect to theta....i'm not going to bother...i'm just going to graph this sucker and pick out the minimum
7) graphing and taking the minimum, we find the optimal shot angle is about 81.2 degrees.

Of course this is an absurd angle, and to make a shot travel 20', you'd have to launch it like 80' in the air (exercise left to reader)...but your intuition proves correct, that your best bet for putting the ball through the hoop is the highest angle which you can shoot it at a shot velocity at which you're comfortable.

[Troublemaker]

His flat shot wasn't going in last night. I noticed that and wondered how he gets it in at such a high percentage. Steph Curry shoots with more arc and gets it in at a historic rate. I believe the angle of incidence of the ball with the hoop is important to high percentage shooting. If you have to be more perfect with your shot to be successful, then you are likely to be inconsistent on nights where you are a little off. What LUke is doing is showing inconsistency and I'll agree it could be for a variety of reasons but arc may be one of those.

I would agree if Luke were a 10-yr-old in a basketball camp. Instead, he's a 19-year-old that has probably shot the exact same way since childhood, and that shot made him into one of the best high school shooters in the country, including in high-level international competition. It's not uncommon for great shooters to struggle with their shot freshman year. Most likely, Luke will return next year with the exact same stroke and arc, and he'll shoot 40% from three.

[dukelifer]

the higher the arc above 45 degrees, the more a a small deviation in angle affects the area a ball falls in, though obviously, the lower the angle, the smaller the area in which the ball will pass through the hoop.

Almost assuredly there is some optimal angle for any given distance from the hoop where you can have a maximal error in either angle or initial velocity and still expect the ball to go in. If I didn't have a bunch of stuff to do, I'd actually calculate it (well there you go...i calculated it.). The outline would be:

1) assume the player releases the ball at ~10' high. It's probably marginally less than that, but not enough to make a significant difference, but significantly simplifies the math.
2) express the distance the ball travels in terms of angle and initial velocity: protip...it's d=v^2 * sin(2*theta) / g
3) calculate for any given angle what are the distance ranges which it will go through the hoop.
A mens ball is 9.5 inches. The hoop is 18". This means for a given angle theta, the deviation from center which can be tolerated for the ball to still go in is
y= 9 - (4.75 / tan(theta), and the minimum theta is when y=0...or about 27.8 degrees.
4) find the change in distance from a small deviation in theta...take the partial derivative of d with respect to theta... d'= 2 * v^2 / g * cos(2*theta). If we plug in a theta here, it tells us how far our shot will deviate in d for a given unit change in theta
5) find the metric we are trying to optimize. In this case, we want to minimize the distance deviation at the shot angle while maximizing the distances in which the ball will go in. Our metric is thus m=d'/y, which means our best bet is when the ratio of deviation to allowable error is at its lowest
6) take the partial derivative of m with respect to theta...i'm not going to bother...i'm just going to graph this sucker and pick out the minimum
7) graphing and taking the minimum, we find the optimal shot angle is about 81.2 degrees.

Of course this is an absurd angle, and to make a shot travel 20', you'd have to launch it like 80' in the air (exercise left to reader)...but your intuition proves correct, that your best bet for putting the ball through the hoop is the highest angle which you can shoot it at a shot velocity at which you're comfortable.

I think Gene Banks once made a shot that went 80 feet in the air from 20 ft over the outstretched arm of Sam Perkins- or at least it seemed that way ;)

[Henderson]

the higher the arc above 45 degrees, the more a a small deviation in angle affects the area a ball falls in, though obviously, the lower the angle, the smaller the area in which the ball will pass through the hoop.

Almost assuredly there is some optimal angle for any given distance from the hoop where you can have a maximal error in either angle or initial velocity and still expect the ball to go in. If I didn't have a bunch of stuff to do, I'd actually calculate it (well there you go...i calculated it.). The outline would be:

1) assume the player releases the ball at ~10' high. It's probably marginally less than that, but not enough to make a significant difference, but significantly simplifies the math.
2) express the distance the ball travels in terms of angle and initial velocity: protip...it's d=v^2 * sin(2*theta) / g
3) calculate for any given angle what are the distance ranges which it will go through the hoop.
A mens ball is 9.5 inches. The hoop is 18". This means for a given angle theta, the deviation from center which can be tolerated for the ball to still go in is
y= 9 - (4.75 / tan(theta), and the minimum theta is when y=0...or about 27.8 degrees.
4) find the change in distance from a small deviation in theta...take the partial derivative of d with respect to theta... d'= 2 * v^2 / g * cos(2*theta). If we plug in a theta here, it tells us how far our shot will deviate in d for a given unit change in theta
5) find the metric we are trying to optimize. In this case, we want to minimize the distance deviation at the shot angle while maximizing the distances in which the ball will go in. Our metric is thus m=d'/y, which means our best bet is when the ratio of deviation to allowable error is at its lowest
6) take the partial derivative of m with respect to theta...i'm not going to bother...i'm just going to graph this sucker and pick out the minimum
7) graphing and taking the minimum, we find the optimal shot angle is about 81.2 degrees.

Of course this is an absurd angle, and to make a shot travel 20', you'd have to launch it like 80' in the air (exercise left to reader)...but your intuition proves correct, that your best bet for putting the ball through the hoop is the highest angle which you can shoot it at a shot velocity at which you're comfortable.

That's pretty impressive geometry there, uh_oh. Kudos. Without quibbling with the math, there are three issues I see:

1. Whenever a mathematical calculation for the 'optimum' of something deviates from reality (see the bolded part above), it's time to look more critically at the model. This applies to all statistically-based conclusions.

2. If I'm following your analysis, it doesn't account for the ball's longer travel distance of a highly-arced shot. It's not the shooter's distance from the basket that counts so much in the math, but the distance the ball travels over it's parabola. Every error at the source (the shooter) is exaggerated by any distance, and that critical distance is from the hand to the basket, along its arc, not the straight-line distance from hand to basket as (I think) your model suggests. And it's not just the shooter's error that influences the flight of a longer (or higher-arced) shot, but the air currents which have a greater effect on long-arcing shots.

3. If your model took account of the error-potential in any long shot (measured along its arc, not from shooter to basket), I don't think an 80 deg. shot would seem so optimal, accounting for the distinction between your conclusion 1 (an 80 deg shot is optimal) and your conclusion 2 (that's crazy).

[uh_no]

That's pretty impressive geometry there, uh_oh. Kudos. Without quibbling with the math, there are three issues I see:

1. Whenever a mathematical calculation for the 'optimum' of something deviates from reality (see the bolded part above), it's time to look more critically at the model. This applies to all statistically-based conclusions.

2. If I'm following your analysis, it doesn't account for the ball's longer travel distance of a highly-arced shot. It's not the shooter's distance from the basket that counts so much in the math, but the distance the ball travels over it's parabola. Every error at the source (the shooter) is exaggerated by any distance, and that critical distance is from the hand to the basket, along its arc, not the straight-line distance from hand to basket as (I think) your model suggests. And it's not just the shooter's error that influences the flight of a longer (or higher-arced) shot, but the air currents which have a greater effect on long-arcing shots.

3. If your model took account of the error-potential in any long shot (measured along its arc, not from shooter to basket), I don't think an 80 deg. shot would seem so optimal, accounting for the distinction between your conclusion 1 (an 80 deg shot is optimal) and your conclusion 2 (that's crazy).

turns out the distance from the hoop doesn't matter. this would be accounted for by the v squared term which is a scaler in our metric function and therefore doesn't affect where the minimum occurs. you could do a similar analysis for best angle for errors in initial velocity

[Henderson]

turns out the distance from the hoop doesn't matter ***

That's kinda my point: It's not the distance from the hoop that counts; it's the length of the ball's travel, which is an arc. And as distance from the hoop increases, the length of the arc increases. And the higher you push the arc to maximize the likelihood of a basket (your contention, not mine, but it seems reasonable), the longer the distance to the basket. And the longer the distance to the basket, the more chance for error to be multiplied into a miss.

So if you posit 80 deg as optimal and find it "absurd" consider that your model might be wrong in not taking into account the increased travel of a ball on a higher trajectory, and therefore more chance for a miss. Doesn't that explain why a 20 foot jump shot with 80 deg angle is not optimal? The shot isn't 20 ft. long. It's the length of the shot's parabola.

[dukelifer]

That's kinda my point: It's not the distance from the hoop that counts; it's the length of the ball's travel, which is an arc. And as distance from the hoop increases, the length of the arc increases. And the higher you push the arc to maximize the likelihood of a basket (your contention, not mine, but it seems reasonable), the longer the distance to the basket. And the longer the distance to the basket, the more chance for error to be multiplied into a miss.

So if you posit 80 deg as optimal and find it "absurd" consider that your model might be wrong in not taking into account the increased travel of a ball on a higher trajectory, and therefore more chance for a miss. Doesn't that explain why a 20 foot jump shot with 80 deg angle is not optimal? The shot isn't 20 ft. long. It's the length of the shot's parabola.
While I certainly appreciate the theoretical analysis- I would prefer to base the optimal arc on that used by the best shooters from deep. This would account, in part, for the human biomechanics and visual processing involved in all this which is very difficult to account for in a simple model. So I would study Steph Curry, Kyle Korver and JJ and use their arcs to figure out "ideal". If Luke can shoot like either of them next year- I will be very happy.