PDA

View Full Version : Wake Forest @ Duke



Bob Green
10-03-2007, 04:30 AM
Duke hosts WF this coming Saturday and looks to end a 24-game ACC losing streak. After beating Northwestern to snap the nation's longest D-1 losing streak at 22 games, Duke has been very competitive in two close losses (at Navy and at Miami). A quick look at statistics indicates that the contest may come down to which team does a better job against the opponents strength. Duke will look to pass the ball to score, while Wake Forest will run a more balanced attack. The table below illustrates yards per game and ranking amongst the 119 D-1 teams:

Duke WF
Total O 303 (106/119) 338.5 (89/119)
Rush O 60.2 (116/119) 145 (66/119)
Pass O 242.8 (48/119) 193.5 (92/119)
Total D 457.4 (104/119) 351.5 (50/119)
Rush D 189.8 (93/119) 115 (33/119)
Pass D 267.6 (97/119) 236.5 (71/119)

In order to secure the victory, Duke's defense is going to have to stop Wake Forest's offense. WF will probably try to pound out yardage on the ground in order to win "time of possession" and keep the ball out of Thad Lewis' hands. When we have possession, Thad & Company must eliminate turnovers and score points.

Prediction: Duke 31 - Wake Forest 28 (Yes, I am predicting Duke wins by a Field Goal!)

OZZIE4DUKE
10-03-2007, 07:26 AM
Beat Wake!

4decadedukie
10-03-2007, 11:15 AM
Bob,

I certainly hope you are right and that Duke prevails. Further, I believe this is a key game -- one we can win and one that we need to win to ensure team/fan attitude remains intensely focused for the remainder of the season.

I will make no prediction re the margin of victory, but I will suggest that our KICKING GAME is likely -- once again to be decisive.

devildeac
10-03-2007, 10:24 PM
Duke hosts WF this coming Saturday and looks to end a 24-game ACC losing streak. After beating Northwestern to snap the nation's longest D-1 losing streak at 22 games, Duke has been very competitive in two close losses (at Navy and at Miami). A quick look at statistics indicates that the contest may come down to which team does a better job against the opponents strength. Duke will look to pass the ball to score, while Wake Forest will run a more balanced attack. The table below illustrates yards per game and ranking amongst the 119 D-1 teams:

Duke WF
Total O 303 (106/119) 338.5 (89/119)
Rush O 60.2 (116/119) 145 (66/119)
Pass O 242.8 (48/119) 193.5 (92/119)
Total D 457.4 (104/119) 351.5 (50/119)
Rush D 189.8 (93/119) 115 (33/119)
Pass D 267.6 (97/119) 236.5 (71/119)

In order to secure the victory, Duke's defense is going to have to stop Wake Forest's offense. WF will probably try to pound out yardage on the ground in order to win "time of possession" and keep the ball out of Thad Lewis' hands. When we have possession, Thad & Company must eliminate turnovers and score points.

Prediction: Duke 31 - Wake Forest 28 (Yes, I am predicting Duke wins by a Field Goal!)

I hope you are right Bob. Ozzie, Duketaylor(and family) and I will be there eating Q and consuming a few, but not too many adult beverages and cheering loudly to break the streak(no, not that kind of streak, Ozzie!). If we win by a FG, my biggest fear is that it will be 1FG in 3 or 4 FG attempts for a win. Go Devils!

OZZIE4DUKE
10-04-2007, 06:32 PM
If we win by a FG, my biggest fear is that it will be 1FG in 3 or 4 FG attempts for a win. Go Devils!

If we win by the predicted 31 - 28 score, we could have 5 touchdowns and only one xpoint conversion. Just kidding!

Bluedawg
10-04-2007, 06:45 PM
I read somewhere, don't recall where so i can't link, that the players are looking forward to showing the home crowd how much they have grown as a team.

I hope they can and I'm calling for a big old DUBYA! on Saturday.

6th Man
10-05-2007, 09:11 AM
I read the same quote from a player stating that they are very anxious to show the home crowd how much they have improved since UCONN. I thought that was a very cool statement. I am stoked for the game tomorrow. This is a HUGE game for the program. We have been knocking on the door the last few and have a crack at the defending ACC champs. The players know they can play with them as they should have won last year. I'm ready for kick-off!!!!! Let's all show up and support these guys and come home with a W!

TillyGalore
10-05-2007, 09:15 AM
I'll be there cheering my heart out!!

Let's go Duke!!!!!!

Bluedawg
10-05-2007, 02:12 PM
Interesting interview (http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2007/10/05/Football/Peters.Prognosis-3015356.shtml)with offensive coordinator Peter Vaas.

Bob Green
10-05-2007, 05:37 PM
Frank Dascenzo paints a pretty bleak picture (http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/duke/39-886883.cfm)and accusses some Iron Dukes and Duke faithful of looking ahead to the game at Notre Dame. I realize he has a responsibility to sell newspapers but I have to disagree with his analysis. IMO, nobody who matters is looking past Wake Forest. Duke has been playing very competitive football over the past three weeks and the next step is to secure the season's second victory.

RelativeWays
10-05-2007, 05:55 PM
I will be there tomorrow, and I will be dragging my UNC loving' wife with me. This is the first of many steps intended to change her evil ways. Like a seed, it will plant itself until it grows and grows. Finally wearing that light blue on her will be akin to holy water on a vampire.

Anyway, I really doubt Duke is looking past anyone, let alone Wake Forest.

allenmurray
10-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Wake has not been playing great D lately
i was at the nebraska, wake game and sam keller could do what he wanted after the 2nd quater against thee D

but remember Thadd is not Sam Keller

I will be at the game tmrw and i think e will pull out a win

SCORE:

DUKE 24

Wake Forest 10

killerleft
10-05-2007, 10:59 PM
I'll be there! C'mon, everybody. Get out tomorrow and support Duke Football!

DukeUsul
10-06-2007, 08:20 AM
I'll be there with my well-loved Duke Football shirt on. I know we're capable of winning this one. Go Duke.

wilson
10-06-2007, 09:20 AM
I agree that this is a pivotal contest for the fellas. In recent years, our sparse wins have tended to be at times jaw-dropping (remember when we smacked Tech in '03?), and we've been as competitive on the road this year as we've been in a long time, so I definitely think this is a week to potentially make a statement, especially in light of the players' desire to put on a show for the home crowd.
This game also has added personal significance for me, as my brother went to Wake (if we were to pull one out today, he would not be happy with me).
I sent my brother a text this morning with the prediction of Duke 34, Wake, 31. As for whether our 34 are the result of four TD's and two FG's or five TD's with a missed extra point, your guess is as good as mine.;)

devildeac
10-06-2007, 09:34 AM
I'll be there cheering my heart out!!

Let's go Duke!!!!!!

Tilly-if you get this message before gametime come visit Ozzie and me at about the 42 yard line about 1/2 way up in the 'ID' section. I promise we will NOT have Earljam with us;)

Stray Gator
10-06-2007, 11:48 AM
I can't be there, because we're getting ready to leave New Orleans en route to Baton Rouge for a little tiff between the Gators and LooserAnna State this evening. But we'll be listening to Bob Harris on XM and cheering loud for a Blue Devil victory. Dump the Deacs! (And Go Gators!)

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 12:18 PM
Erron Riley is a MAN. 60-some yard TD pass from Lewis to Riley. Single coverage, Riley just went up and got it.

9-0 DUKE

Game's on ACCselect.com for $5 for those interested.

wilson
10-06-2007, 12:22 PM
Normally I follow the boys via GameChannel on Yahoo! or ESPN GameCast, but neither seems to be available today. Anybody know what gives and/or where I can follow the game? (FWIW, I can't seem to get much from GoDuke.com either)

gep
10-06-2007, 12:25 PM
I use Yahoo Sports for Bob Harris... go to the scoreboard, the click on the audio link. But, audio may be a bit delayed...

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Game's on ACCselect.com for $5 for those interested.

I think it's the Duke radio broadcast + the feed you would see on the screen at Wallace Wade. I kind of prefer to it all the nonsense you get when you watch a game on ESPN or whatever.

9-7 now.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 12:30 PM
I'm listening via the Internet; here's the URL:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/242/popup/index.php?rn=193177&ch=193369&cl=4097363
(http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/242/popup/index.php?rn=193177&ch=193369&cl=4097363)

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 12:34 PM
Just started listening, seems to be going okay so far.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Scoreboard shows Carolina leading Miami 27-0...Miami isn't carrying their weight in the conference.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 12:37 PM
Normally I follow the boys via GameChannel on Yahoo! or ESPN GameCast, but neither seems to be available today. Anybody know what gives and/or where I can follow the game? (FWIW, I can't seem to get much from GoDuke.com either)

I'm getting nothing either...other than the radio broadcast. Perhaps a server issue somewhere?

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 12:40 PM
Does anyone know how we scored...looks like a touchdown by Riley, but did we get a field goal also with a missed PAT or perhaps a safety?

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 12:45 PM
Does anyone know how we scored...looks like a touchdown by Riley, but did we get a field goal also with a missed PAT or perhaps a safety?

Safety

Bob Green
10-06-2007, 12:48 PM
I can't get the yahoo link to work. Any advice? It worked last week for the Miami game.

gep
10-06-2007, 01:02 PM
I can't get the yahoo link to work. Any advice? It worked last week for the Miami game.

If you're using FireFox, try IE... that works for me...

formerdukeathlete
10-06-2007, 01:13 PM
Wake ahead second quarter.
Thad Lewis is off target, way off target, throwing high, and telegraphing throws before releasing the football.
game is too conservatively called.
Here is the problem with our game day coaching.
need to throw on 1st down.
need to put Asack in there when Lewis is performing poorly.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 01:14 PM
At 4:30 remaining in the half. Seventeen unanswered points, with Wake seeming -- hard to tell only from Yahoo/Duke Radio live Internet feed -- to dominate on both sides of the ball. Very frustrating. Come on boys, play like you did earlier in the game.

Simultaneously -- I hate to even mention it -- UNC is pounding Miami, 27 to 7, well into the Third Quarter.

Jumbo
10-06-2007, 01:18 PM
Wake ahead second quarter.
Thad Lewis is off target, way off target, throwing high, and telegraphing throws before releasing the football.
game is too conservatively called.
Here is the problem with our game day coaching.
need to throw on 1st down.
need to put Asack in there when Lewis is performing poorly.

Are you related to Asack or something? Get off it already. You've got a sophomore QB who has pretty much carried this team to keep it competitive in recent weeks. You're building something here. If he were 0-for-20 with seven interceptions today, there would STILL be no reason to pull him. Let him go through his lumps, if he is indeed taking them, because he's Duke's long-term answer at QB.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 01:24 PM
Fell asleep on the couch, its now 23-9...with the PAT up next. Make that 24-9.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 01:25 PM
24 - 9 (24 unanswered points) with :08 seconds left in the half. Our team seems to have fallen apart. ONLY ONE OF SIX THIRD DOWN CONVERSIONS. Major half time adjustments are obviously critical. I am almost afraid to listen to the second half.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 01:28 PM
Any luck getting the Internet live feed?

Bob Green
10-06-2007, 01:36 PM
Any luck getting the Internet live feed?

Nope. Yahoo doesn't like me today.

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 01:38 PM
Miami QUICKLY catching up in the third quarter . . . in last five minutes, Miami has scored 13 unanswered points . . . at 3:33 remaining in the third quarter, UNC leads Miami 27 - 20.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 01:38 PM
Nope. Yahoo doesn't like me today.


Well, we still like you...

JasonEvans
10-06-2007, 01:45 PM
The 2nd half will be interesting. Roof does not exactly have a reputation as a guy who makes great half-time adjustments. Lets see how he does this time.

Eron Riley is sick!! Nothing but loooong TDs for that kid.

--Jason "C'mon Duke!!" Evans

wilson
10-06-2007, 01:45 PM
Nope. Yahoo doesn't like me today.

If it makes you feel any better, Yahoo is being mean to me today too. I fear it doesn't matter, as I have little hope for drastic second-half improvement. At least kuralonna is doing their best to completely piss away their giant halftime lead. Miami has scored 20 unanswered in the 3rd to pull within 7. kuralonna threatening though.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 01:52 PM
Starting to get ugly....

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 01:59 PM
Pretty disappointing performance today.

Thad was off, and I really felt like the coaches just got in the team's way in the first half. The play-calling was terrible.

arnie
10-06-2007, 01:59 PM
It's 27-9 and at least I can take a postive away from the game - I did not bother to go. I hope they don't fire Roof after the game, but let him finish out the string (I wouldn't even mind if they let him back next year). If next year is another disaster and the administration is serious about football; then maybe they try hire someone with head coaching experience.

wilson
10-06-2007, 02:03 PM
The play-calling was terrible.

I gotta say, I've felt that way pretty much all year. There was one series where we went incomplete pass, incomplete pass, then run on 3rd and 10, for 4 yards. :confused:
I have (yet again) reached the point of despair for the football season.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Wow, interception and TD return, it just got really really ugly...

4decadedukie
10-06-2007, 02:05 PM
Wow, interception and TD return, it just really really ugly...

I hate to agree, but the facts speak for themselves.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:08 PM
Huge play for Re'quan

JasonEvans
10-06-2007, 02:09 PM
I agree with Jumbo about Thad, but Thad is making a solid case for at least taking a series off in this game ;)

Oh, and don;'t count your Carolina collapses before they hatch, the Tarheels are again pulling away from Miami. Currently 33-20, bad guys.

--Jason

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Pass interference on Eron in the end zone...some points this quarter would really help the mental outlook.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:19 PM
Just curious, did it make sense to go for two now? Or are there more kicking concerns?

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:22 PM
Interception by Davis of Duke. Let's get another score!

formerdukeathlete
10-06-2007, 02:23 PM
Are you related to Asack or something? Get off it already. You've got a sophomore QB who has pretty much carried this team to keep it competitive in recent weeks. You're building something here. If he were 0-for-20 with seven interceptions today, there would STILL be no reason to pull him. Let him go through his lumps, if he is indeed taking them, because he's Duke's long-term answer at QB.

I do not share the view that Lewis is head and shoulders above Asack. Therefore, it is not clear to me that Lewis has carried the team more so than what Asack would have done given the chance with a game plan designed to utilize his skills. I do not buy necessarily that we are building anything more than what would have been built with Asack with the right coaching. In fact, I think Asack would have been, better for ball control offense.

Duke has struggled due to conservative play calling, and a sub-par performance by Lewis. Because I think Asack is right there with Lewis, given Asack's 3 inch height advantage and significant running advantage, I say on such a day good creative coaching would have put Asack in there.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:29 PM
Touchdown Blue Devils! Will they go for two again? Yes, and they converted now down by 11

Bob Green
10-06-2007, 02:35 PM
34-23 now! We need to keep this rally going and have a huge 4th Quarter. Go Duke!

dukeisawesome
10-06-2007, 02:45 PM
34-29, let's go Duke!

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Another missed 2 point conversion, but down to a 5 point lead.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:47 PM
That fickle lady known as "Miss Mo". Where the heck did Bob come up with that one?

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 02:48 PM
We're coming back! Come on, defense!

Lavabe
10-06-2007, 02:48 PM
There's still plenty of time.. for Duke to win!:eek:

I just heard that Ozzie is at the game, so I figured I do my part to be a paradigm of optimism.

9F!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

wilson
10-06-2007, 02:49 PM
I have (yet again) reached the point of despair for the football season.

So now we've woken up and are within a score. Regardless of the outcome of the game, I feel like a bit of a schmuck for the above statement.:o

Lavabe
10-06-2007, 02:53 PM
So now we've woken up and are within a score. Regardless of the outcome of the game, I feel like a bit of a schmuck for the above statement.:o

Then get back onto the SNRUB!!
Cheers,
Lavabe

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 02:53 PM
So now we've woken up and are within a score. Regardless of the outcome of the game, I feel like a bit of a schmuck for the above statement.:o

I relearned my lesson about throwing in the towel too early on Monday when I went to bed after the Pads scored two in the top of the 13th with Hoffman on the mound.

dukeisawesome
10-06-2007, 03:01 PM
Nice punt return...here we go Duke!

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 03:05 PM
That hurt!

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 03:07 PM
Wow.

Another game we could've easily won. Again.

Thad Lewis missed a wide open Riley who could've walked in for a go ahead TD with about 8-9 mins left, and then THE SINGLE WORST noncall on a pass interference I have ever seen on our next drive. Just inexplicable.

Jumbo
10-06-2007, 03:08 PM
I do not share the view that Lewis is head and shoulders above Asack. Therefore, it is not clear to me that Lewis has carried the team more so than what Asack would have done given the chance with a game plan designed to utilize his skills. I do not buy necessarily that we are building anything more than what would have been built with Asack with the right coaching. In fact, I think Asack would have been, better for ball control offense.

Duke has struggled due to conservative play calling, and a sub-par performance by Lewis. Because I think Asack is right there with Lewis, given Asack's 3 inch height advantage and significant running advantage, I say on such a day good creative coaching would have put Asack in there.

Well, we can now add "football" to the list of things about which FDA is clueless. (Wait, I forgot, when you weren't busy swimming, doing kegstands, beating off Chapel Hill coeds with a stick and taking the bar exam for fun, you were supposedly an NFL linebacker in the making.)


Player GP Comp Att Yards TD Int Effic
Thaddeus Lewis 5 88 144 1200 11 5 149.37
Zack Asack 2 2 6 14 0 0 52.93
Thad has proved plenty. The fact that you want him pulled is the best evidence of all that Roof is making the right choice. In fact, I'm considering a new motto: WWFDAND (What Would FDA Not Do)?

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 03:15 PM
1st and Goal at the 8...another touchdown?

Arrrrrgh....a sack....


Touchdown!

Mabdul Doobakus
10-06-2007, 03:23 PM
That was a ridiculous onside kick. You can't give the other team that much time to get the ball. I mean we kicked it past their 30.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 03:25 PM
Couldn't see it...

They didn't give up and fought to the end...

Duvall
10-06-2007, 03:32 PM
I do not share the view that Lewis is head and shoulders above Asack.

Thad Lewis threw 4 touchdown passes today, on an off day.

Zack Asack has thrown 5 touchdown passes in his college career.

Bob Green
10-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Another frustrating loss. We just can't seem to put together a complete 60 minutes of football. It appears Wake Forest dominated the 2nd Quarter when they outscored us 17-0, but it is really hard to know from the box score. We fought back in the 2nd half but couldn't get it done.

jimsumner
10-06-2007, 05:19 PM
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but after the game I asked TR about Bailey and his response was that he was "not optimistic." That's Roofspeak for out for awhile.

Most of the postgame focused on "one more play," "getting over the hump," and concepts familiar to teams that keep losing close games. True but still frustrating. I guess it's better than getting blown out and Duke was in blow-out territory and fought back to make it a nail-biter.

There seemed to be general agreement that Duke was flat early on, a difficult concept for me to grasp, considering that you only do this 11 or 12 times a year for four years and even less than that in front of the home folks.

Duke maintains that the on-side kick was executed the way Duke wanted. Tried to find the weak link.

Moore's pretty good. So is Riley. Seriously. Two absolutely marvelous college receivers. Austin Kelly's a keeper, btw.

Oh well. Next play.

RelativeWays
10-06-2007, 05:19 PM
A few things.

Bad offensive production in the 1st half may have been Dukes undoing in this game. It resulted in a lot of bad field position and a tired defense.

Thad Lewis was real inconsistent, Many passes were too high or too low. He has got potential to be great, but not this year.

Running game....running game?!? There were a couple of good runs but most running plays were dead upon hiking the ball.

Not sure why we would go for a 4th and 10 but not a 4th and 1.

Defense did okay, but had trouble with stops on 3rd down. Wakes short passing game was a problem most of the day.

The team showed a lot of heart. Not a lot of teams come back 20+ deficit at half time and come back to have a chance to win late in the 4th. Unfortunatley, almost doesn't count in the W/L column.

I was really perplexed at some of the offensive plays called. Wake had trouble defending the deeper routes (and they got away with a couple of pass interferences). The running plays were either up the middle or wierd sweeps, they didn't try to open any gaps.

This team has talent but I'm not sure if the coaching is where it needs to be.

Kewlswim
10-06-2007, 06:45 PM
Hi,

The team has a LOT of heart. With some good coaching I really believe they can win some games. I think Roof has put down something of a foundation, now we need a coach and recruiter that can move the team to the next level. I believe there will be some good EXPERIENCED coaches out there to choose from next year. I would be stoked if Duke beat ND and then Weis was fired because of that game and Duke picked him up. :D

GO DUKE!

Jumbo
10-06-2007, 08:03 PM
Hi,

The team has a LOT of heart. With some good coaching I really believe they can win some games. I think Roof has put down something of a foundation, now we need a coach and recruiter that can move the team to the next level. I believe there will be some good EXPERIENCED coaches out there to choose from next year. I would be stoked if Duke beat ND and then Weis was fired because of that game and Duke picked him up. :D

GO DUKE!


Blah, blah, blah. Do you think that Duke might be showing heart maybe -- just maybe -- BECAUSE of its current coach? Why don't you let him get through a full cycle of his classes, let his young QB develop into an experienced vet and see if this year's close losses become close wins next year before starting the cycle ALL OVER AGAIN?

Charlie Weis could have any number of NFL coaching jobs. I'm sure he'd love to come to Duke instead.

dukie8
10-06-2007, 08:22 PM
Hi,

The team has a LOT of heart. With some good coaching I really believe they can win some games. I think Roof has put down something of a foundation, now we need a coach and recruiter that can move the team to the next level. I believe there will be some good EXPERIENCED coaches out there to choose from next year. I would be stoked if Duke beat ND and then Weis was fired because of that game and Duke picked him up. :D

GO DUKE!

why would we want someone who may be the worst coach in all of college football? it is beyond me how someone with all of those resources and all of that talent not only can't win a game but has been destroyed in every game. i do think that if duke beats nd, then that will be the end of weis at nd. he might have a $30MM contract, but he will cost the school a lot more than $30MM over the life of it if he stays on.

dukie8
10-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Blah, blah, blah. Do you think that Duke might be showing heart maybe -- just maybe -- BECAUSE of its current coach? Why don't you let him get through a full cycle of his classes, let his young QB develop into an experienced vet and see if this year's close losses become close wins next year before starting the cycle ALL OVER AGAIN?

Charlie Weis could have any number of NFL coaching jobs. I'm sure he'd love to come to Duke instead.

that's what people were saying LAST year. this whole season feels like groundhog day -- the team is in nearly every game and someone finds a way to lose. roof has had more than enough opportunity to show at least an inkling of improvement but this team is exactly where it was last year and it also has the benefit of what may be the worst acc in history. hopefully some influential alums already have been peppering cowher with calls.

YmoBeThere
10-06-2007, 08:26 PM
this team is exactly where it was last year

I get what you mean, but we do have the one win this year.

devildeac
10-06-2007, 08:30 PM
A fair amount has been posted already, I will try to add or reinforce a few key plays.

We could not stop 2nd/3rd and long in the 1st half. Wake converted 8/12. 2nd half was 0/6. Nice improvement/adjustments. Play calling was odd most of the first half. A few drops or bad throws.

Our 1st 2 possessions of the 2nd half were disasters. 2 picks=10 points deep in our territory. To be fair, the 2nd was a tip BUT we did not have a guy within about 5-7 yds of the ball. Stefanow missed a TD catch at the back of the end zone. Kelly missed a catch inside the WFU 5 yd line(tough play but catchable). We had 1st and goal at the WFU 6 and got nada one time. Thad badly overthrew a wide open Riley in the 4th(he was 5-7 yds behind the nearest WFU player). Kelly redeemed himself with a nice catch and run for the last TD(I think). The refs totally swallowed their whistles on a pass interference call(or at least call defensive holding) on a long pass inside Wake's 20 with us down by 5. Wake's only long run of the day, about a 55 yarder for the winning TD was a complete breakdown with our line/coverage outside the box.

Very few 'stupid' plays except one personal foul helping get Wake rolling on their 1st TD. Also 1 illegal substitution on one of our freshman as we were gaining some ground.

Overall, not bad. Coulda been VERY ugly, like 45-9 or worse but very respectable, especially our 2nd half effort. Shoulda won(where have I heard that before?) The call/location for the onside kick was not a bad one. Hell, I told Ozzie we should just kick it to the 10 yard line and make it a foot race to a bouncing ball as Wake had 10 guys within 20 yards of the kickoff and only 1 guy back at about their 40 yard line.:(

dukie8
10-06-2007, 08:38 PM
I get what you mean, but we do have the one win this year.

my bad for overlooking that. if we just can beat nd, which i think is doable, this season will be considered a mild success and something to build on for next year.

Jumbo
10-06-2007, 08:56 PM
that's what people were saying LAST year. this whole season feels like groundhog day -- the team is in nearly every game and someone finds a way to lose. roof has had more than enough opportunity to show at least an inkling of improvement but this team is exactly where it was last year and it also has the benefit of what may be the worst acc in history. hopefully some influential alums already have been peppering cowher with calls.

Like last year? Duke didn't win a game last year. Duke only lost by less than two touchdowns three times all SEASON last year. This year, in six games, Duke actually has a win and four of the five losses have come by less than two touchdowns. Duke was in all those games with a chance to win. So, it doesn't feel like Groundhog Day to me at all. It feels like the first real step toward something bigger.

Fans, by and large, don't have patience. They don't realize that change takes time. They make absurd declarations about someone being the "worst coach in college football" based on a tiny sample size. Life doesn't work that way. Even new coaches at successful programs often need time to get things right when starting a new job. But when you're taking over Duke -- which had been a football cesspool for more than a decade before Roof's arrival -- you need even more time. You need to cling to small positives, and build off them. Slowly. You need to stop hoping some magical coach will wave his wand and suddenly a lack of talent and other inherent issues will just disappear. You build on any form of progress you see. You revel in the heart of your team, the fact that the team won't give up, no matter how far they are down. They're playing for a coach who has won nothing. That's huge. Guys who just might be significant players are starting to emerge on both sides of the ball. That's huge. And as a coach/AD/administrator, what should set you apart from -- and make you better than -- your fans is the ability to recognize those small victories and exercise the appropriate patience.

Or, you can waste your time calling Bill Cowher, who could have practically any NFL or college job in the country, and convince that "Hey, this long-time doormat in college football is TOTALLY worth the energy you'll have to invest just to win three games."

mapei
10-06-2007, 09:04 PM
I can't help but find it pretty depressing when losing by less than two touchdowns is considered satisfactory improvement. Would losing by an average of less than one touchdown constitute continued satisfactory improvement next year? If not, what would?

Indoor66
10-06-2007, 09:07 PM
I can't help but find it pretty depressing when losing by less than two touchdowns is considered satisfactory improvement. Would losing by an average of less than one touchdown constitute continued satisfactory improvement next year? If not, what would?

It seems to me that the football team is making strong progress. I agree with an earlier post that it takes time to develop a team and instill winning attitudes. If we drop Roof and bring in another coach we can look at another effort starting all over and taking 4+ years to get to where we are now. I think we need a bit more patience to allow Roof to follow through on what he has built.

TillyGalore
10-06-2007, 09:15 PM
Tilly-if you get this message before gametime come visit Ozzie and me at about the 42 yard line about 1/2 way up in the 'ID' section. I promise we will NOT have Earljam with us;)

Darn, I just got this message. :( I did look for Ozzie as I was sitting a couple of sections over.

I will be there next week!!

RelativeWays
10-06-2007, 09:21 PM
Maybe it would be better to keep Roof and his staff for another 2-3 years. It is true that hiring another coach just means starting over again. Neither Wilson, Goldsmith or Franks made a lasting improvement their first years and weren't kept long enough to maintain any improvement there might have been. Jim Grobe is not an overnight success at Wake it took him a couple of years to get Wake to this point and its going to take him a few more before they can keep their success going (and they're only 2-3). I say Duke should keep Ted Roof at least till 2010

arnie
10-06-2007, 09:28 PM
I agree that Roof should stay through next year; although I don't really believe much will change. However, I don't understand the statement that it would take 4 1/2 years for a new coach to build what Roof has built. We have lost roughly 25 straight ACC games under Roof - hard to understand/appreciate what he has really built.

I recall the same statements by Duke adminstrators regarding Franks - stating that Franks accomplishments were in building the program up, not in winning games.

formerdukeathlete
10-06-2007, 10:03 PM
Well, we can now add "football" to the list of things about which FDA is clueless. (Wait, I forgot, when you weren't busy swimming, doing kegstands, beating off Chapel Hill coeds with a stick and taking the bar exam for fun, you were supposedly an NFL linebacker in the making.)

Thad has proved plenty. The fact that you want him pulled is the best evidence of all that Roof is making the right choice. In fact, I'm considering a new motto: WWFDAND (What Would FDA Not Do)?

Based on my observations, and knowledge about football, let me reiterate:

And aside from being in the game for what, a total of 3 or 4 series, so far this year, Asack has had very little chance to use what he is better at doing than what Lewis does on the field, and little chance to show us some of what he did during his freshman year.

For instance, it is a lot easier for Asack to throw over the middle - due to in actuality 3 inches height advantage.

It is a lot easier for Asack to avoid being sacked.

It is a lot easier for Asack to run.

I guess I should not be amazed by your posts. For example, when I pointed out as the first person on this board that the lacrosse players were innocent you accused me of being a hater of women. Tell me again your connection to Duke - you are not an alumnus.

dukie8
10-06-2007, 10:15 PM
Like last year? Duke didn't win a game last year. Duke only lost by less than two touchdowns three times all SEASON last year. This year, in six games, Duke actually has a win and four of the five losses have come by less than two touchdowns. Duke was in all those games with a chance to win. So, it doesn't feel like Groundhog Day to me at all. It feels like the first real step toward something bigger.

Fans, by and large, don't have patience. They don't realize that change takes time. They make absurd declarations about someone being the "worst coach in college football" based on a tiny sample size. Life doesn't work that way. Even new coaches at successful programs often need time to get things right when starting a new job. But when you're taking over Duke -- which had been a football cesspool for more than a decade before Roof's arrival -- you need even more time. You need to cling to small positives, and build off them. Slowly. You need to stop hoping some magical coach will wave his wand and suddenly a lack of talent and other inherent issues will just disappear. You build on any form of progress you see. You revel in the heart of your team, the fact that the team won't give up, no matter how far they are down. They're playing for a coach who has won nothing. That's huge. Guys who just might be significant players are starting to emerge on both sides of the ball. That's huge. And as a coach/AD/administrator, what should set you apart from -- and make you better than -- your fans is the ability to recognize those small victories and exercise the appropriate patience.

Or, you can waste your time calling Bill Cowher, who could have practically any NFL or college job in the country, and convince that "Hey, this long-time doormat in college football is TOTALLY worth the energy you'll have to invest just to win three games."

duke was 0-6 after 6 games last year and is 1-5 after 6 games this year. you may find that statistically significant but i do not. i did not say that this year was an exact replica of last year but there are glaring similarities -- namely a team that plays well enough to win games but figures out a way to lose them through a variety of means. let's take a closer look at last year:

wake (acc champs) -- lost 14-13 and was winning until giving up a td with 1:28 left
alabama -- lost 30-14 but was winning midmay through the 3rd quarter
miami -- lost 20-15 and had the ball on miami's 6 yard line for the final play of the game.
unc -- lost 45-44 and won't list all of the missed opportunities in that one

that's 4 games that the team easily could have won but for a variety of foul-ups late in the games. that seems to be a recurring theme this year as well (ignoring the uconn fiasco). it also is worth noting that the way the schedule has worked out this year we get the better teams on the back end of it (we haven't played a ranked team yet). if the team gets drubbed by relatively weak va tech, fsu and nd teams, then we will be looking at an almost carbon copy of last year.

i have patience but, jumbo, come on. this guy is 6-39 lifetime at duke. enough is enough. he has had plenty of time to show something and he has a grand total of 1 win over the past 18 games -- and that includes playing d1aa lightweight richmond at home. he also has the benefit of what many would call the worst acc in history. do you honestly believe that he will have things turned around in 2, 3 or 4 years? i'm not even talking about winning the acc. i'm just talking about winning the 2 ooc games and going .500 in the acc.

don't get me started about weis. he has been at nd since 2005 and has managed to get blown out in every big game he has played. yes, 0-5 and being DEAD LAST in the country in offense after 2 or 3 games is absolutely inexecusable with the money and resources he has. to be perfectly honest, i do love it because it couldn't have happened to a more arrogant guy. i remember when he was hired he told his team that it will have a schematic offense advantage in every game it plays because of his presence. i should bite my tongue because nd just went up 20-6 and may be pulling off its first win...

RelativeWays
10-06-2007, 10:19 PM
Bitterness ensues....so anyway, basketball season begins anew in just a few weeks. I'll be attending the second scrimmage against Barton College....I think?

DevilAlumna
10-06-2007, 10:39 PM
Put me on the side of giving Roof at least another year after this.

At this point, it seems like the ship of Duke Football has been righted, re-crewed, and under steam on a good course. At this point, minor changes, not a major course correction, are what's needed. A new kicker. Some more stamina in the 4th quarter. Older, more mature players. A seasoned quarterback. And guess what? Those things are coming.

This season, we've seen a team that's in the game at the end- not just on the scoreboard, but mentally as well; that was definitely missing last year. These kids have heart, this coach has proven he has the skills to keep the guys together, and keep them believing; a break-through is sooo close.

Maybe not this season (though there are plenty of downs yet to be played), but from what I've seen/heard so far, I'm willing to wait another year.

JasonEvans
10-06-2007, 11:00 PM
this whole season feels like groundhog day -- the team is in nearly every game and someone finds a way to lose. roof has had more than enough opportunity to show at least an inkling of improvement but this team is exactly where it was last year and it also has the benefit of what may be the worst acc in history.

Are you sure your memory is correct? This year's Blue Devils are muuuuch more competative than last year's team. Allow me to remind you of the scores of last season's games:

Richmond 13-0
Wake 14-13
Va Tech 36-0
Virginia 37-0
Alabama 30-14
FSU 51-24
Miami 20-15
Vandy 45-28
Navy 38-13
BC 28-7
Ga Tech 49-21
UNC 45-44

So, how many of those games were we "in and found a way to lose?" We were only in 3 games all year long. The Miami score is a little deceptive because it was 20-2 entering the 4th quarter and M<iami really let up and let us back into the game. We were just destroyed in virtually all our other games.

Compare that to this season when we have had the ball with a chance to win late in the 4th quarter in our past 5 games in a row. I fail to see ANY SIMILARITY between last season's blow outs and this season's competitive games.


hopefully some influential alums already have been peppering cowher with calls.

I am fairly sure you are joking about this but I know there are some Duke fans who have this pipe dream. Folks, it ain't happening!! Bill Cowher will have his pikc of many great jobs at the end of this season -- in both college and the NFL. There will be offers Duke cannot come close to matching in terms of money and facilities. Sure, we may be close to where he is thinking about settling down, but the notion that we are getting someone like Cowher to replaec Roof is beyond laughable.

The reality is that Duke will have great trouble attracting a top-flight candidate for this job. We are just not very attractive right now. Heck, a few weeks ago Spurrier was talking about us and said he would not go back to Duke now because he is not sure even he could win here. This is a tough, tough job and it is not made any easier by fans who want us to change coaches every 3 or 4 seasons.

As I showed here, Duke has made very clear progress at being competitive this year. Now, I want to copy a post I made in ther other thread about Roof's future. I really think folks need to look beyond the obvious to see what is going on at Duke.


I sincerely hope the adminstration at Duke is looking at more than Ws and Ls when deciding the fate of the football coaching staff. There are many, many other measures that are more important right now to a program trying to rise out of the depths as Duke is.

Look, I want to win as much as the next guy, but the fact that this team is fighting hard and staying in games is significant progress in my mind. Yeah, we have had a string of hard-luck losses this season, but merely being in games and competing is pretty notable considering where Duke has been this decade.

Is it enough progress to say Roof should certainly stay? I dunno. As I mentioned, there are other factors at play here-- not least of which is the question of who we would get to replace him. My only point in all this is that FOR NOW Duke does not need to be 100&#37; hung up on wins and losses. I honestly think a solid case could be made for keeping coach if the team does not win another game... but if certain other things happen (such as us being competative in all our remaining games).

--Jason "Duke has stuck by a coach who looked like his program was a losing mess before... just look at what Duke's hoops record was in 1983" Evans

prefan21
10-06-2007, 11:06 PM
Put me on the side of giving Roof at least another year after this.

At this point, it seems like the ship of Duke Football has been righted, re-crewed, and under steam on a good course. At this point, minor changes, not a major course correction, are what's needed. A new kicker. Some more stamina in the 4th quarter. Older, more mature players. A seasoned quarterback. And guess what? Those things are coming.

This season, we've seen a team that's in the game at the end- not just on the scoreboard, but mentally as well; that was definitely missing last year. These kids have heart, this coach has proven he has the skills to keep the guys together, and keep them believing; a break-through is sooo close.

Maybe not this season (though there are plenty of downs yet to be played), but from what I've seen/heard so far, I'm willing to wait another year.

Agreed. We've been in the NCAA cellar for some time now. It's a big hole to dig out of. The kids are playing hard for Roof and we're staying competitive in games with teams like Miami. We're moving in the right direction. Firing Roof would be a mistake: Steve Spurrier and big time coaches are not begging to take over.

JasonEvans
10-06-2007, 11:09 PM
Tell me again your connection to Duke - you are not an alumnus.

Be careful FDA. This kind of statement/question is not where you or anyone on this board wants to go.

Many of the strongest supporters (both financially and emotionally) of Duke are people who never attended the school. Anyone who wants can be a passionate fan of a program/school. Whether Jumbo or anyone else is an alum is irrelevant to their ability to be a fan and make critical observations about the team on this board.

Consider this a warning. I see your statement as very close to being a personal attack.

It is easy for all of us to lose sight of proper decorum when posting to a bulletin board-- try to imagine you are having a conversation with the person you are posting about... imagine they are standing right in front of you.

--Jason "and if you imagine them punching you in the nose, then change your post" Evans

JasonEvans
10-06-2007, 11:20 PM
this guy is 6-39 lifetime at duke. enough is enough. he has had plenty of time to show something and he has a grand total of 1 win over the past 18 games -- and that includes playing d1aa lightweight richmond at home. he also has the benefit of what many would call the worst acc in history. do you honestly believe that he will have things turned around in 2, 3 or 4 years? i'm not even talking about winning the acc. i'm just talking about winning the 2 ooc games and going .500 in the acc.


Well, if we fire him after this season we will never know, will we?

Don't forget, there was a huge panic among Duke fans in the early 80s who were sure Coach K would never find a way to win. Dean Smith was hung in effigy TWICE during his first 5 seasons at UNC... and it is a ton easier to turn around a basketball program than it is a football program (plus, Duke and UNC both had recent winning traditions in hoops back then while Duke football has been a national laughing stock since well before Roof arrived).

I am not someone who believes we should support Roof no matter what. Certainly if we start getting blown out of every game and the recruiting falls off a cliff then I may change my mind. But, I fail to see how anyone could look at what the team has done on the field the past several weeks and not see it as progress. Why are you people so hung up on WINS at this point!! We have to crawl before we can walk.

--Jason "I ask this-- what does it hurt to keep Roof around another year to see if the improvement begins to turn into Ws?" Evans

dukie8
10-07-2007, 12:16 AM
Well, if we fire him after this season we will never know, will we?

Don't forget, there was a huge panic among Duke fans in the early 80s who were sure Coach K would never find a way to win. Dean Smith was hung in effigy TWICE during his first 5 seasons at UNC... and it is a ton easier to turn around a basketball program than it is a football program (plus, Duke and UNC both had recent winning traditions in hoops back then while Duke football has been a national laughing stock since well before Roof arrived).

I am not someone who believes we should support Roof no matter what. Certainly if we start getting blown out of every game and the recruiting falls off a cliff then I may change my mind. But, I fail to see how anyone could look at what the team has done on the field the past several weeks and not see it as progress. Why are you people so hung up on WINS at this point!! We have to crawl before we can walk.

--Jason "I ask this-- what does it hurt to keep Roof around another year to see if the improvement begins to turn into Ws?" Evans

yes. cowher is a complete pipedream. i would be utterly shocked if he even would take a call from duke. hopefully he is coaching the giants next year...

i don't see how you can say that we were not in the miami game last year. we had the ball on their 6 for the final play of the game and down by 5. that was just out of grasp from a win. as i stated earlier, we had 4 games last year that we very winnable (5 if you count the richmond disaster). our schedule this year happened to have been front loaded with the easier teams. i believe that we need to see how we do against va tech, fsu and nd before drawing and quartering roof (note that all 3 are in "down" years). i don't think anyone on here will support firing him if we take 2 of those 3. if we get blown out by them, then we will be in exactly the same place as last year -- very competitive in a bunch of games and blown out against the better teams. we are lucky that bc is not on the schedule this year.

i can assure you that if k or deano ran the table with losses any season, he would have been canned. there is a big difference between being bad, like duke was in the early 80s, and being the laughing stock of college football with the recently ended longest losing streak in the country. crawling to me is beating uconn and some of the other dregs of the acc (this year is more teams than normal) -- not hanging around against the lesser teams of the acc. if we can take notre dame, that in and of itself would to save the season.

77devil
10-07-2007, 12:36 AM
Be careful FDA. This kind of statement/question is not where you or anyone on this board wants to go.

Consider this a warning. I see your statement as very close to being a personal attack.


Let's be balanced. I did not see any of the mods admonishing Jumbo for his statement:

"Well, we can now add "football" to the list of things about which FDA is clueless. (Wait, I forgot, when you weren't busy swimming, doing kegstands, beating off Chapel Hill coeds with a stick and taking the bar exam for fun, you were supposedly an NFL linebacker in the making.)"

Reads like a personal attack to me.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 02:40 AM
Be careful FDA. This kind of statement/question is not where you or anyone on this board wants to go.

Many of the strongest supporters (both financially and emotionally) of Duke are people who never attended the school. Anyone who wants can be a passionate fan of a program/school. Whether Jumbo or anyone else is an alum is irrelevant to their ability to be a fan and make critical observations about the team on this board.

Consider this a warning. I see your statement as very close to being a personal attack.

It is easy for all of us to lose sight of proper decorum when posting to a bulletin board-- try to imagine you are having a conversation with the person you are posting about... imagine they are standing right in front of you.

--Jason "and if you imagine them punching you in the nose, then change your post" Evans

There's no need for a warning, there, Jason. It wasn't a personal attack. I don't recall ever discussing my background with him, nor do I plan to. But it's yet another scary window into the mind of FDA as to what he values in life.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 02:46 AM
Based on my observations, and knowledge about football, let me reiterate:

And aside from being in the game for what, a total of 3 or 4 series, so far this year, Asack has had very little chance to use what he is better at doing than what Lewis does on the field, and little chance to show us some of what he did during his freshman year.

For instance, it is a lot easier for Asack to throw over the middle - due to in actuality 3 inches height advantage.

It is a lot easier for Asack to avoid being sacked.

It is a lot easier for Asack to run.

I guess I should not be amazed by your posts. For example, when I pointed out as the first person on this board that the lacrosse players were innocent you accused me of being a hater of women. Tell me again your connection to Duke - you are not an alumnus.

If Asack has only played "3 or 4 series every year," how on earth are you qualified to say that he's a better QB than Thad Lewis? It's absurd. The coaches watch him every day in practice. I imagine they want to win. If he were better, he'd be playing. Oh, and by the way, Thad Lewis is putting up some pretty awesome stats this year. Do you really think this team's problem is at quarterback? Seriously?

As far as your random point about lacrosse, I think you have me confused with someone else. I barely posted on the lax case. I did, however, criticize your views about women during your numerous posts about Duke using the women of Chapel Hill as a recruiting tool. It's a vile way of looking at women; it objectifies them and is, quite frankly, embarrassing. And I'll continue to call you on that the next time you make such a comment. You can keep congratulating yourself on being "the first person on this board that the lacrosse players were innocent." Whatever that means.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 02:55 AM
i have patience but, jumbo, come on. this guy is 6-39 lifetime at duke. enough is enough. he has had plenty of time to show something and he has a grand total of 1 win over the past 18 games -- and that includes playing d1aa lightweight richmond at home. he also has the benefit of what many would call the worst acc in history. do you honestly believe that he will have things turned around in 2, 3 or 4 years? i'm not even talking about winning the acc. i'm just talking about winning the 2 ooc games and going .500 in the acc.

Do I believe that he will have turned things around in a couple of years? Beats me. But I definitely believe that a new coach will not have turned anything around by then. We've gone that route -- multiple times. And it's got us nowhere. I'm well aware that Roof's record is awful, but this program was in shambles when he took over. It is a long, complicated process to fix Duke football, and we're still in the earlier stages. I believe that the proper approach is to give a coach an extended period of time, provided the following two things occur:
1) The kids play hard every game.
2) We see signs (no matter how small) of improvement over time.

There's no question that Roof is succeeding in the first area. And, as far as #2 goes, you can't convince me that this isn't a better team than last year. Duke's been competitive in all but one game. That wasn't the case last season. And it's getting to the point where we're starting to expect Duke to be in the game, which is an enormous difference from how most of us felt last season.

We're starting to see a young nucleus emerge -- Thad, VO, Riley, etc. But the key word there is young. Duke is now at the point where the games are close, and the team's having trouble pulling them out in the end. Does that remind you of any other recent Duke team? That's right, I'm talking about last year's basketball team. Clearly, no one believes Duke lost so many close games last season because of coaching. Young kids (generally) struggle in tight games. We see it all the time.

The bottom line is Duke football is a problem unlike hardly any other on the NCAA landscape. It requires an extreme amount of patience -- more than you'd give a coach just about anywhere else, quite frankly. I think we have to suck it up long and keep going the baby-step route. If, by the time Lewis and VO are seniors, other recruits have developed and Duke has a team with veteran starters, the team is still winning one or two games then, yes, Roof will have to go. But that's two years away, and I believe he deserves those two years to make something happen.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 02:56 AM
hopefully [Cowher] is coaching the giants next year...

Well, at least we agree on something, although I have a feeling that if he decides to come back next year at all, San Diego will be his destination.

Lavabe
10-07-2007, 04:38 AM
It is a long, complicated process to fix Duke football, and we're still in the earlier stages. I believe that the proper approach is to give a coach an extended period of time, provided the following two things occur:
1) The kids play hard every game.
2) We see signs (no matter how small) of improvement over time.


We're starting to see a young nucleus emerge ...

Earlier in the season, I was concerned with a few posted rumors about the players giving up on the coaching staff ... based on the UConn loss. On the field, Jumbo's #1 point is solid. Holding on against Northwestern, coming back yesterday, playing Miami/Navy tough... I doubt it possible for these events without the team playing hard.

Agreed on point two... as is evidenced by young players. When Riley is on the field, I feel we have a chance to score. Thad, Kelly, Leon Wright, VO, and others mentioned show up all the time. If this development continues, it fits in well with what is expected as part of the education mission of the university.

FWIW, Thad is among the top 3 in ACC QB rating.

I believe there's a point 3: Roof's team is clean and graduating, and doing so without lowering standards. Without point 3, everything else falls apart. Roof deserves credit here.

Cheers,
Lavabe

4decadedukie
10-07-2007, 05:58 AM
Jumbo -

I agree with your posts throughout this entire thread. This team has heart -- and that is NOT inconsequential -- and its performance is improved. There remains a LONG way to go, but this season is NOT "Groundhog Day."

dukie8
10-07-2007, 06:25 AM
Do I believe that he will have turned things around in a couple of years? Beats me. But I definitely believe that a new coach will not have turned anything around by then. We've gone that route -- multiple times. And it's got us nowhere. I'm well aware that Roof's record is awful, but this program was in shambles when he took over. It is a long, complicated process to fix Duke football, and we're still in the earlier stages. I believe that the proper approach is to give a coach an extended period of time, provided the following two things occur:
1) The kids play hard every game.
2) We see signs (no matter how small) of improvement over time..

we have NOT been down this route multiple times. every time we hire another mediocre to bad coach. the stanford win last night completely shatters your theory that it takes years to turn around a program like duke's. stanford has all of the academic hurdles that duke has and was nearly as bad as duke last year (1 win versus 0 wins). stanford went out and hired someone who can coach and what does he do? he goes on the road and knocks off the #2 team in the country who also happened to have the longest pac-10 winning streak EVER. we aren't talking about being proud because they competed and stayed within 2 touchdowns but still lost. we are talking about actually winning a football game against one of the very best teams in the country on the road. enough with the nonsense that it takes years to work up to maybe winning an acc game against the bottom dwellers of the acc. if harbough had your approach, they would have gone out last night, competed hard and the folded like duke has done 4 times this year.

i also don't agree that the kids play hard every game. i don't get the games on tv but from what multiple peope stated on here, they flat out gave up in the 2nd half against uconn.

as i stated earlier, the acc is downright terrible this year -- maybe the worst ever -- and that works in duke's favor. with that being said, the schedule is such that the tougher games are on the backend. if duke hangs in and maybe pulls out a win against fsu, va tech or nd (all of which are down this year), then i will agree with you. if they get blown out by all 3, then we have an exact carbon copy of last year.


We're starting to see a young nucleus emerge -- Thad, VO, Riley, etc. But the key word there is young. Duke is now at the point where the games are close, and the team's having trouble pulling them out in the end. Does that remind you of any other recent Duke team? That's right, I'm talking about last year's basketball team. Clearly, no one believes Duke lost so many close games last season because of coaching. Young kids (generally) struggle in tight games. We see it all the time.

we also see young kids who struggle at first but who are coached well improve over time (eg, louisville last year). that was one of the things that was so frustrating about last year's hoops season -- the team was young but it REGRESSED as the season wore on and, yes, gasp, i lay some of the blame on k for that. we have been over this before, but last year had to have been his worst coaching job at duke.


The bottom line is Duke football is a problem unlike hardly any other on the NCAA landscape. It requires an extreme amount of patience -- more than you'd give a coach just about anywhere else, quite frankly. I think we have to suck it up long and keep going the baby-step route. If, by the time Lewis and VO are seniors, other recruits have developed and Duke has a team with veteran starters, the team is still winning one or two games then, yes, Roof will have to go. But that's two years away, and I believe he deserves those two years to make something happen

see stanford. i hope alleva/the board see things differently. we shouldn't have to wait 5 years to beat a meddling acc team.

also, if i were the owner of sd, i would be handing over a blank check to cowher for next year.

YmoBeThere
10-07-2007, 08:10 AM
It has been a wild year in college football and I am having a difficult time discerning who is really good, particularly given Stanford's victory last night and so many losses among the "Top 10" the week prior. So, I am still trying to figure out what I believe the measure of success should be this season. Our remaining schedule looks like this:
Conf. Overall
Virginia Tech (15) 2-0 5-1
Florida State 1-1 4-1
Clemson (22) 2-2 4-2
Georgia Tech 1-3 3-3
Notre Dame - 1-5
North Carolina 1-2 2-4

and I am of the opinion at this moment that if we don't get another win this season it would be a disappointing, even with close losses. Three weeks ago, I was hoping the Navy game would be the second win and we would have a shot at a 3 win season.

As others have mentioned, I believe the next three weeks will be the litmus test for this team and the progress it has made, not expecting a win in those three, but to play them closer than last year.

As for taking baby steps, Dr. King urged those fighting for their civil rights to be focused on the "fierce urgency of now" and not "to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism". ("I Have a Dream" speech, August 28, 1963) We have to show progress that results in W's not just moral victories. Ultimately, that means 3-4 wins a season with an outside shot at qualifying for a bowl every few years.

formerdukeathlete
10-07-2007, 08:16 AM
If Asack has only played "3 or 4 series every year," how on earth are you qualified to say that he's a better QB than Thad Lewis? It's absurd. The coaches watch him every day in practice. I imagine they want to win. If he were better, he'd be playing. Oh, and by the way, Thad Lewis is putting up some pretty awesome stats this year. Do you really think this team's problem is at quarterback? Seriously?

As far as your random point about lacrosse, I think you have me confused with someone else. I barely posted on the lax case. I did, however, criticize your views about women during your numerous posts about Duke using the women of Chapel Hill as a recruiting tool. It's a vile way of looking at women; it objectifies them and is, quite frankly, embarrassing. And I'll continue to call you on that the next time you make such a comment. You can keep congratulating yourself on being "the first person on this board that the lacrosse players were innocent." Whatever that means.

Firstly, your posts in response to mine are replete with personal attacks.

Re Asack, you have to look at what he did in his freshman year and then consider whether our rigid and overly conservative approach to the offense, particularly in the first half of the Wake game after the initial touchdown was / is symptomatic of problems in putting a game plan together and in making adjustments during the game. Roof is at best a mediocre coach. And, his rigidity might extend to now sticking with Lewis under all circumstances even when Lewis is way overthrowing his receivers and getting intercepted.

My comments about the proximity of UNC-CH, that its student body is about 60% women - weather and social life were selling points for Duke in recruiting. Duke Football players, basketball players and other students and athletes have for years gone over to Chapel Hill for dinner, bars, parties, and many have dated women at Chapel Hill, including me. Part of Duke student life is Chapel Hill. Weather AND student life are important selling points in yielding athletic recruits as well as students who are also admitted to Ivy Schools and Stanford.

Regarding my posts on the lacrossee matter, you asserted that my defense of the lacrosse players was misogynistic, that I "hated" women. That is out there.

Check out Tim Tebow when he was being recruited

http://mississippi.scout.com/2/374470.html

Asack is a dual threat qb like Tebow.

Tebow now benches 400 and squats over 500. Tebow is a little shorter than Asack. Asack is a little faster.

Where Asack might go from here?

So, if Asack could put 20 - 25 pounds of muscle on his frame, yes he may run a high 4.6 40 rather than 4.5 ....but he just might pound through defensive backs.

Folks would rather tackle Lewis as it stands right now. Put 25 pounds on Asack .... watch out.

DU82
10-07-2007, 08:31 AM
That was a ridiculous onside kick. You can't give the other team that much time to get the ball. I mean we kicked it past their 30.

I presume that you were "watching" the game online and didn't see the play live.

The idea regarding that onside kick is to pooch it high over the line of opposing players, and our players with momentum can reach the ball before Wake's could turn around and run to the ball. It has worked for us in the past. Unfortunately, the kick was a bit too low, and hit the ground before our guys could run under it.

On that onside kick, we originally had Wake out of position, and somebody on their team made a great "play" by calling a timeout just as our guy Meyers was about to kick it. Surgan was out there, but Meyers was going to kick it instead in the other direction, where Wake had fewer players. Wake called time out when Meyers was about a step from the ball.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-07-2007, 10:15 AM
I presume that you were "watching" the game online and didn't see the play live.

The idea regarding that onside kick is to pooch it high over the line of opposing players, and our players with momentum can reach the ball before Wake's could turn around and run to the ball. It has worked for us in the past. Unfortunately, the kick was a bit too low, and hit the ground before our guys could run under it.

On that onside kick, we originally had Wake out of position, and somebody on their team made a great "play" by calling a timeout just as our guy Meyers was about to kick it. Surgan was out there, but Meyers was going to kick it instead in the other direction, where Wake had fewer players. Wake called time out when Meyers was about a step from the ball.


I was "watching" online but it was on ACCSelect, and it had live streaming video. I saw the play quite clearly. I'll never be a fan of that kind of kick. Wake had 2 players who could've set up a picnic by the time anyone from Duke got to the ball. You would need some crazy bounces to have a chance at that one. Your point that it was poorly executed is well-taken, though. Maybe if we had done the damn thing better, I wouldn't be so down on the idea in the first place.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 11:55 AM
we have NOT been down this route multiple times. every time we hire another mediocre to bad coach. the stanford win last night completely shatters your theory that it takes years to turn around a program like duke's. stanford has all of the academic hurdles that duke has and was nearly as bad as duke last year (1 win versus 0 wins). stanford went out and hired someone who can coach and what does he do? he goes on the road and knocks off the #2 team in the country who also happened to have the longest pac-10 winning streak EVER. we aren't talking about being proud because they competed and stayed within 2 touchdowns but still lost. we are talking about actually winning a football game against one of the very best teams in the country on the road. enough with the nonsense that it takes years to work up to maybe winning an acc game against the bottom dwellers of the acc. if harbough had your approach, they would have gone out last night, competed hard and the folded like duke has done 4 times this year.

i also don't agree that the kids play hard every game. i don't get the games on tv but from what multiple peope stated on here, they flat out gave up in the 2nd half against uconn.

as i stated earlier, the acc is downright terrible this year -- maybe the worst ever -- and that works in duke's favor. with that being said, the schedule is such that the tougher games are on the backend. if duke hangs in and maybe pulls out a win against fsu, va tech or nd (all of which are down this year), then i will agree with you. if they get blown out by all 3, then we have an exact carbon copy of last year.



we also see young kids who struggle at first but who are coached well improve over time (eg, louisville last year). that was one of the things that was so frustrating about last year's hoops season -- the team was young but it REGRESSED as the season wore on and, yes, gasp, i lay some of the blame on k for that. we have been over this before, but last year had to have been his worst coaching job at duke.



see stanford. i hope alleva/the board see things differently. we shouldn't have to wait 5 years to beat a meddling acc team.

also, if i were the owner of sd, i would be handing over a blank check to cowher for next year.

Let me some all of this up as best I can. People who don't know better, blame the coach. See: Steinbrenner, George. Apparently Joe Torre is managing for his job today, as if it's his fault that the Yankees haven't hit in a grand total of TWO games. Jim Harbaugh hasn't proved that he's some sort of genius. Stanford had a big win. They also have more talent than Duke. And the situations are not comperable -- Stanford has had FAR more recent success than Duke. It's not even close.
Of course you blame K for last season. It's just so much easier than looking at a more complex issue -- how young kids react and how the makeup of the team affects results. Sure, some young teams have caught fire late in the year. But you cannot expect consistency out of young teams, and they tend to struggle in close games.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 11:59 AM
As for taking baby steps, Dr. King urged those fighting for their civil rights to be focused on the "fierce urgency of now" and not "to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism". ("I Have a Dream" speech, August 28, 1963) We have to show progress that results in W's not just moral victories. Ultimately, that means 3-4 wins a season with an outside shot at qualifying for a bowl every few years.

Did you really just compare the progress of a lousy college football program to the civil rights movement? Seriously?

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 12:14 PM
Firstly, your posts in response to mine are replete with personal attacks.
That is so rich with irony that, well, never mind.


Re Asack, you have to look at what he did in his freshman year and then consider whether our rigid and overly conservative approach to the offense, particularly in the first half of the Wake game after the initial touchdown was / is symptomatic of problems in putting a game plan together and in making adjustments during the game.
Uh, what?


Roof is at best a mediocre coach.
Because you say so, right?


And, his rigidity might extend to now sticking with Lewis under all circumstances even when Lewis is way overthrowing his receivers and getting intercepted.
Yeah, lots of teams bench their starting QB when he's in the top-3 in his conference in QB rating because of a few bad passes. Riiiiight. Coaches who know anything about football realize that young QBs actually need to go through those growing pains.



My comments about the proximity of UNC-CH, that its student body is about 60% women - weather and social life were selling points for Duke in recruiting. Duke Football players, basketball players and other students and athletes have for years gone over to Chapel Hill for dinner, bars, parties, and many have dated women at Chapel Hill, including me. Part of Duke student life is Chapel Hill. Weather AND student life are important selling points in yielding athletic recruits as well as students who are also admitted to Ivy Schools and Stanford.

That's all lovely. That's not how you presented it multiple times in other posts. You made it clear that the women should be a selling point, which is decidedly different than talking about "social life." That you can't sell the difference is very, very sad.


Regarding my posts on the lacrossee matter, you asserted that my defense of the lacrosse players was misogynistic, that I "hated" women. That is out there.
Out "there?" Out where? In FDA-land, where no assertion needs to be defended? Because it's certainly not out here (http://www.snrub.com:81/ArchiveMirror/Search.aspx?q=hate+women). That's Billy Breen's archive of the old board. It's a search for the words "hate" and "women." I don't see anything from Jumbo. Let me know if I'm missing something. Otherwise, FDA, just once, LEARN TO BACK UP YOUR FREAKING WORDS WITH SOME EVIDENCE. It's an absolutely disgusting character trait -- pompous, dishonest and nasty.


Check out Tim Tebow when he was being recruited

http://mississippi.scout.com/2/374470.html

Asack is a dual threat qb like Tebow.

Tebow now benches 400 and squats over 500. Tebow is a little shorter than Asack. Asack is a little faster.

Where Asack might go from here?

So, if Asack could put 20 - 25 pounds of muscle on his frame, yes he may run a high 4.6 40 rather than 4.5 ....but he just might pound through defensive backs.

Folks would rather tackle Lewis as it stands right now. Put 25 pounds on Asack .... watch out.

The fact that you are comparing to Asack to Tebow based purely on size and speed and nothing else to do with football ability shows just how little you know about football. We can run through the list of all the QBs in the NFL who had remarkable physical tools and failed. But let's not even go there. Instead, by your logic, anyone who is the same size as Tebow, with the same speed, should be the same caliber of QB, right? That makes a lot of sense...

dukie8
10-07-2007, 12:32 PM
Let me some all of this up as best I can. People who don't know better, blame the coach. See: Steinbrenner, George. Apparently Joe Torre is managing for his job today, as if it's his fault that the Yankees haven't hit in a grand total of TWO games. Jim Harbaugh hasn't proved that he's some sort of genius. Stanford had a big win. They also have more talent than Duke. And the situations are not comperable -- Stanford has had FAR more recent success than Duke. It's not even close.
Of course you blame K for last season. It's just so much easier than looking at a more complex issue -- how young kids react and how the makeup of the team affects results. Sure, some young teams have caught fire late in the year. But you cannot expect consistency out of young teams, and they tend to struggle in close games.

no. people who DO know better blame the coach when it is the coache's fault. i suppose norv turner gets a free pass in your book for the mess he has created in san diego this year. how about doherty at unc? it may be a shock to you, but there actually are bad coaches out there and it is reflected in their respective team's play. roof just is another example.

it's nice for you to subjectively declare that stanford has "more talent than Duke." was that based on their 1-11 season last season? or maybe their 0-3 start to the pac-10 season. stanford has repeatedly been mentioned on this boards as the 1 school with similar academic constraints as duke but nobody has said that they have been laden with talent the past 1+ seasons. they win 1 big game and now all of a sudden they have a ton more talent than duke? give me a break.

harbough may not have demonstrated that he is a coaching genius but in 6 games, he has done something that roof hasn't even come close to doing in over 40 games.

dukie8
10-07-2007, 12:45 PM
Let me some all of this up as best I can. People who don't know better, blame the coach. See: Steinbrenner, George. Apparently Joe Torre is managing for his job today, as if it's his fault that the Yankees haven't hit in a grand total of TWO games. Jim Harbaugh hasn't proved that he's some sort of genius. Stanford had a big win. They also have more talent than Duke. And the situations are not comperable -- Stanford has had FAR more recent success than Duke. It's not even close.
Of course you blame K for last season. It's just so much easier than looking at a more complex issue -- how young kids react and how the makeup of the team affects results. Sure, some young teams have caught fire late in the year. But you cannot expect consistency out of young teams, and they tend to struggle in close games.

i found your unilateral declaration that stanford has more talent than duke to be rather dubious so i did a little research on it. here are their recent rankings on rivals.com:

2007: stanford 51 and duke 78
2006: stanford 53 and duke 56
2005: stanford 41 and duke 46
2004: stanford 57 and duke 70

they look pretty similarly mediocre (assuming that these ranking mean anything). i also would discount the 2007 rankings heavily because most of those players either are redshirted or on the bench. moreover, there seems to be a lot more than pure talent because usc has been ranked #1 for what seems like every year this decade and stanford, with its mediocre talent, beat them last night. coaching may just has some impact on the game.

YmoBeThere
10-07-2007, 12:52 PM
Did you really just compare the progress of a lousy college football program to the civil rights movement? Seriously?

I was not comparing the progress of the two. Making note that Dr. King suggests that to get things done at some point there must be a sense of urgency that leads to tangible results. With regards to Duke football, I am not suggesting that there isn't a sense of urgency, just a lack of tangible results. At some point, no matter the level of urgency without results you have waited too long to change your approach. For better or worse, that means wins on the football field. I agree that the time to make a change is not now, but the decision point gets closer.

DU82
10-07-2007, 12:55 PM
I was "watching" online but it was on ACCSelect, and it had live streaming video. I saw the play quite clearly. I'll never be a fan of that kind of kick. Wake had 2 players who could've set up a picnic by the time anyone from Duke got to the ball. You would need some crazy bounces to have a chance at that one. Your point that it was poorly executed is well-taken, though. Maybe if we had done the damn thing better, I wouldn't be so down on the idea in the first place.

First, my putting "watching" in quotes meant I thought you were checking the live stats, didn't see the play at all and based your comment on the field position; I didn't realize there was live streaming video.

The first time I saw the pooch style onside kick was by us at NC State in Roof's first full year. The idea is that the ball doesn't touch the ground. It works best if a team has almost all their players lined up at the 40 waiting on the ten yard kick. I was sure we were going to try that style kick yesterday, and I'm sure Wake did too. The difference here was that a different player was supposed to kick it, before Wake called the time out. After the time out, it took away the surprise factor, which made the potential for success not as good. I don't know where to find statistics on onside kicks, but I'm sure the success rate's fairly low.

I've seen three general styles of onside kicks (when the other team is expecting it): kick it at a player and hope it bounces off him, kick it into the ground and hope that it bounces ten yards and the bounce gives your players time to get down those ten yards, and the sky (pooch) kick. I think the sky kick has the best chance of working, since it doesn't depend on a good bounce by an oblong ball, it depends on a kicker kicking the ball correctly. So I guess this is another case where our kicking game let us down? (Not being serious about that today; the only real mistake on a kick today was an out-of-bounds kickoff by Surgan. Wake had the more serious mistake on kicking, with the snap over the punters head. We went for two often instead of the one-point kick based on the score, not because of our kickers.)

As with many plays like this, the decision after the time out is whether or not to change the play (and for the defense, to decide if the offense is going to change the play and not adjust) which happens in both football and basketball (and other sports, of course.) We gambled and used the same play, hoping Wake wouldn't fully adjust. They did.

DU82
10-07-2007, 01:07 PM
If Asack has only played "3 or 4 series every year," how on earth are you qualified to say that he's a better QB than Thad Lewis? It's absurd. The coaches watch him every day in practice. I imagine they want to win. If he were better, he'd be playing. Oh, and by the way, Thad Lewis is putting up some pretty awesome stats this year. Do you really think this team's problem is at quarterback? Seriously?



Specific to yesterday's game, I didn't think Lewis had a good game overall. Stats looked good, but he missed many relatively easy throws, and didn't get out of the way (ie scramble out of the pocket) on one of the last drives, when we went four and out. I don't know enough about the logistics to say whether he should have scrambled, or the play call should have had him rolling out to better avoid the rush. (That'll cause us trouble next week, especially if VT draws a bunch of personal fouls/roughing the passer in the first quarter, like last year's game.) His audibles didn't appear to do much, either. In the middle of the third quarter, most of us in my section figured we'd see Asack for the next series. Not that Asack would replace Lewis as the starter, but just that Thad was having a bad day, and sometimes you sub because of that.

formerdukeathlete
10-07-2007, 07:15 PM
That's all lovely. That's not how you presented it multiple times in other posts. You made it clear that the women should be a selling point, which is decidedly different than talking about "social life." That you can't sell the difference is very, very sad.
.......
That's Billy Breen's archive of the old board. It's a search for the words "hate" and "women." I don't see anything from Jumbo. Let me know if I'm missing something. Otherwise, FDA, just once, LEARN TO BACK UP YOUR FREAKING WORDS WITH SOME EVIDENCE. It's an absolutely disgusting character trait -- pompous, dishonest and nasty.
......

The fact that you are comparing to Asack to Tebow based purely on size and speed and nothing else to do with football ability shows just how little you know about football. We can run through the list of all the QBs in the NFL who had remarkable physical tools and failed. But let's not even go there. Instead, by your logic, anyone who is the same size as Tebow, with the same speed, should be the same caliber of QB, right? That makes a lot of sense...

We can go through archives and whether the search engine will pick up your posts and whether it will pick up deleted posts, but your response to one of my first posts re the innocence of the lacrosse players turned immediately into a personal attack against me that I must hate women. In other posts you have called me "sick."

I took it, as I have taken a number of your insulting and attacking posts. But, when I make a polite comment in response to your insults, then Jason says beware of personal attacks.

You have asserted that I know nothing about football. Yet DU82 who played ball for Duke and who attended the game says Lewis looked slow footed and unimpressive for a lot of the game.

Asack did not look slow footed in any single play during his freshman year, but that is an aside. You say that to compare Asack to Tebow is rediculous. I suggest regarding where he might go from here is to get stronger and run over people. He is not just any 6-4 guy wanting to be QB. He is a guy who had a good freshman year. I remain uncertain regarding Roof's ability to evaluate talent and adjust to game day.

And, since you have insulted my knowledge so many times, let me just say that I am unimpressed with your knowledge and judgment when it comes to evaluating, for example, whether Roof will be building forever or whether it is time for a change notwithstanding some improvements. Stanford in their first season with a new coach beats USC. Appalachian with 1/2 the talent of Duke can beat Michigan. FAU with 1/2 ther talent of Duke can almost beat USF, which is ranked 6th and which has less talent than Duke.

And regarding Duke's proximity to Chapel Hill - it IS a selling point. For male athletes and male students in my day this was assuredly partly a function that Duke was 55% or more men and Chapel Hill was 60% or more women. St. Marys and Peace were re selling points for kids thinking of attending State, where presumably the student body is still more than 50% men. NC State used to reference the women's colleges in their recruiting literature. These are selling points for hetero sexual men and hetero sexual male athletes planning on dating when going to college. Stanford does not have a Chapel Hill. And, that is a selling point for Duke.

Again, the personal attacks, "that you cannot s(t)ell the difference."

JasonEvans
10-07-2007, 07:38 PM
I am not sure why but I was wondering whether FDA was right about his "Carolina is 60% female" comment, so I looked it up. UNC is 58.5% female.

--Jason

YmoBeThere
10-07-2007, 07:58 PM
And it has been in and around that range for a long long time. And it was a draw for the male undergrads who weren't athletes.

throatybeard
10-07-2007, 08:23 PM
Attendance was listed at 20,134. Wake must have brought a few.

Lavabe
10-07-2007, 08:32 PM
I am not sure why but I was wondering whether FDA was right about his "Carolina is 60% female" comment, so I looked it up. UNC is 58.5% female.

--Jason

It's also pretty much the norm around the country. Here's a story about it from 2005:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/28/opinion/main1167672.shtml

Cheers,
Lavabe

Lavabe
10-07-2007, 08:55 PM
Stanford does not have a Chapel Hill.

Thank heavens there's only one Chapel Hell!

To be fair, Stanford has Cal-Berserkeley & SF, all not too far away. Get on the train (&BART), and you're there. GOT to love public transportation! Berkeley is a wonderful college town, and SF is a helluva city.

As it turns out the Bears are now number 2 in the country. GO FIGURE!

Cheers,
Lavabe

mapei
10-07-2007, 09:26 PM
I like Chapel Hill a lot. If I lived in the Triangle area, that's where I would want to be, if I could work there. If I were a student in the area, I'd probably spend some time there. I like UNC OK, for that matter. Not so much their sports teams.

Bob Green
10-07-2007, 09:36 PM
Re Asack, you have to look at what he did in his freshman year and then consider whether our rigid and overly conservative approach to the offense, particularly in the first half of the Wake game after the initial touchdown was / is symptomatic of problems in putting a game plan together and in making adjustments during the game. Roof is at best a mediocre coach. And, his rigidity might extend to now sticking with Lewis under all circumstances even when Lewis is way overthrowing his receivers and getting intercepted.



From my perspective, any talk of replacing Thad Lewis as our QB does not pass the common sense equation. After six games, according to ESPN, Thad Lewis is the 29th highest rated QB in the nation (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/sortables?stat=pass&sort=rat&season=2&year=2007&group=80)and the highest rated of any QB in the ACC.

Our football woes are not due to inadequate performance from the QB or receivers. However, we are dead last in the ACC (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2007-2008/confldrs.html#conf.wi2) in rushing offense and total defense.

The team is improving but I agree that they must figure out how to win some games. The team and Coach Roof have my support!

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 11:00 PM
We can go through archives and whether the search engine will pick up your posts and whether it will pick up deleted posts, but your response to one of my first posts re the innocence of the lacrosse players turned immediately into a personal attack against me that I must hate women. In other posts you have called me "sick."

Or, to quote you as I read it:

Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah-blah-blah, blah. Blah. Blah!"

I just showed you an archive that has no evidence of my doing anything you "recall." Now you're making up more lies. Let me repeat something to you that people have been telling you since the day you started posting here, Mr. Formerdukeathlete. Back. Up. Your. Words. Try presenting facts. Otherwise, everything you say is meaningless, and gets translated as I did above.

Jumbo
10-07-2007, 11:20 PM
i suppose norv turner gets a free pass in your book for the mess he has created in san diego this year. how about doherty at unc?

Look, of course I realize that bad coaches exist. You cite two excellent examples there. And there are also some truly great coaches. But I think most guys fall into some sort of a middle ground, where they can succeed or fail based on a variety of other circumstances.

My point about Roof and Duke is that the situation is about as close to unique as you'll find in college football. Duke hasn't won more than 4 games since 1994. That was Duke's only winning season since 1989. The program has been in shambles since Spurrier left. Even Stanford, your example, has a much better track record than Duke during that time period. Stanford won five gams just two years ago (in a much better conference). They won 9 games in 2001 and 8 games in 1999. Prior to that, the Cardinal won 7 games in both 1996 and 1995, 10 in 1992 and 8 in 1991. In short, Stanford at least has some sort of a foundation in football. Duke doesn't.

That's why I think the rules need to be different for Duke. Essentially, I'm asking for two more years, to the time when Duke's top young players are seniors. By then, we'll have seen more than one of Roof's recruiting classes come and go. We'll have had a long look at how Roof has changed the program, whether the players have grown under him and whether he has grown as a coach. The two caveats are the two I listed before (plus the third someone else added about graduating players):
1) The players must continue to play hard for him.
2) There must be some sign of improvement each season, no matter how small.
If, at the end of the 2009 season, Duke's not a much better football team (I'm not sure how to quantify that in wins -- obviously it has to be at least four), then it will be time to make a change. And if Duke hires a new coach, that can't be the only change made to the program.

I just can't go through the process of "give him four, then out the door" again. It's not working. I'd much rather suffer through two seasons of epic losing then to start from scratch next season. Because we can always start from scratch a little longer down the line. Duke football won't vanish, so why not try something a little different. In a world that demands instant gratification, let's be leaders and buck the trend, show extraordinary patience, and see where that takes us. If we fail, we fail, but at least we would have tried something different.

Kewlswim
10-08-2007, 01:14 AM
Look, of course I realize that bad coaches exist. You cite two excellent examples there. And there are also some truly great coaches. But I think most guys fall into some sort of a middle ground, where they can succeed or fail based on a variety of other circumstances.

My point about Roof and Duke is that the situation is about as close to unique as you'll find in college football. Duke hasn't won more than 4 games since 1994. That was Duke's only winning season since 1989. The program has been in shambles since Spurrier left. Even Stanford, your example, has a much better track record than Duke during that time period. Stanford won five gams just two years ago (in a much better conference). They won 9 games in 2001 and 8 games in 1999. Prior to that, the Cardinal won 7 games in both 1996 and 1995, 10 in 1992 and 8 in 1991. In short, Stanford at least has some sort of a foundation in football. Duke doesn't.

That's why I think the rules need to be different for Duke. Essentially, I'm asking for two more years, to the time when Duke's top young players are seniors. By then, we'll have seen more than one of Roof's recruiting classes come and go. We'll have had a long look at how Roof has changed the program, whether the players have grown under him and whether he has grown as a coach. The two caveats are the two I listed before (plus the third someone else added about graduating players):
1) The players must continue to play hard for him.
2) There must be some sign of improvement each season, no matter how small.
If, at the end of the 2009 season, Duke's not a much better football team (I'm not sure how to quantify that in wins -- obviously it has to be at least four), then it will be time to make a change. And if Duke hires a new coach, that can't be the only change made to the program.

I just can't go through the process of "give him four, then out the door" again. It's not working. I'd much rather suffer through two seasons of epic losing then to start from scratch next season. Because we can always start from scratch a little longer down the line. Duke football won't vanish, so why not try something a little different. In a world that demands instant gratification, let's be leaders and buck the trend, show extraordinary patience, and see where that takes us. If we fail, we fail, but at least we would have tried something different.

Hi,

I truly believe that very good to superior coaching trumps waiting around to see what Roof might or might not do. In my opinion, and we seem to differ quite a bit on this, good coaching can make bigger strides than Roof can doing his baby steps. I am not ready to give up on two or three seasons to see if this experiment will work or not. It is all probably a moot point anyway since Alleva has shown quite a bit of loyalty to Roof, so we will probably get the opportunity to see what he can do with two or more seasons under his belt.

GO DUKE!

JasonEvans
10-08-2007, 06:16 AM
Hi,

I truly believe that very good to superior coaching trumps waiting around to see what Roof might or might not do. In my opinion, and we seem to differ quite a bit on this, good coaching can make bigger strides than Roof can doing his baby steps. I am not ready to give up on two or three seasons to see if this experiment will work or not. It is all probably a moot point anyway since Alleva has shown quite a bit of loyalty to Roof, so we will probably get the opportunity to see what he can do with two or more seasons under his belt.

FWIW, I 100% agree with you that great coaching makes a big difference. I also agree that Roof is probably not a great coach-- at least not yet. But, I think there is a decent chance that he may be a good coach and is learning how to be better. I also think there is almost no evidence at all that Duke can and will find someone better than Roof if we get rid of him.

Seeing as Duke has been woefully bad for such a long time, I fail to see why you and others think it is so essential to get rid of Roof now. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter if we stink again next year versus the chance that maybe -- maybe -- Roof does know what he is doing and we might actually be decent-good next season?

-Jason "as I often do, I agree 100% with Jumbo about the criteria for keeping Roof around -- don't give up and keep on showing progress!" Evans

YmoBeThere
10-08-2007, 06:57 AM
Even Stanford, your example, has a much better track record than Duke during that time period. Stanford won five gams just two years ago (in a much better conference).

Just as a comparison for everyone to look at, look at the year by year history of Vandy, which plays in a much tougher conference, the SEC. About a 1/3 of the way down the page you will see the historical record(looks like 1999 is transposed). You will notice that several years they were blanked in conference, but they were able to win OOC games such that they never had to deal with a 22 game losing streak.

I would be satsified with a similar result trajectory for Duke that Vandy has seen under Bobby Johnson. I just get the feeling we aren't there yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanderbilt_Commodores_football#Coaching_staff.

throatybeard
10-08-2007, 08:07 AM
It's also pretty much the norm around the country. Here's a story about it from 2005:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/28/opinion/main1167672.shtml

Cheers,
Lavabe

You mean Carolina isn't some completely unique paradise of nubile coeds just waiting for settlement by hunky Duke explorers? My head is spinning. :cool:

Bluedawg
10-08-2007, 08:23 AM
Hi,

I truly believe that very good to superior coaching trumps waiting around to see what Roof might or might not do. In my opinion, and we seem to differ quite a bit on this, good coaching can make bigger strides than Roof can doing his baby steps. I am not ready to give up on two or three seasons to see if this experiment will work or not. It is all probably a moot point anyway since Alleva has shown quite a bit of loyalty to Roof, so we will probably get the opportunity to see what he can do with two or more seasons under his belt.
GO DUKE!

Duke has a history (http://www.inside99.net/NCAA/database/duke_database.htm) of dumping coaches:


COACH # YEARS
Dr. John F. Crowell 2
No Coach 5
Floyd J. Egan 1
James Baldwin 1
Herman Steiner 1
S.M. Alexander 1
Howard H. Jones 1
James P. "Pat" Herron 1
James "Jimmy" DeHart 5
Wallace W. Wade 16
Edmund M. "Eddie" Cameron 4
William D. "Bill" Murray 15
Tom Harp 5
Mike McGee 8
Shirley "Red" Wilson 4
Steve Sloan 4
Steve Spurrier 3
Barry Wilson 4
Fred Goldsmith 5
Carl Franks 5
Ted Roof 2

the most successful years were when coaches were allowed to stay and complete what they started. Shouldn't we giver TR that chance?

YmoBeThere
10-08-2007, 09:09 AM
Interesting, does anyone have a historical(year-by-year) reference for each season, so we can look at the "trajectory"?

Also, did anyone else notice we did fairly well with "No Coach" from 90-94? Perhaps we can go back in that direction?

Jumbo
10-08-2007, 10:21 AM
Interesting, does anyone have a historical(year-by-year) reference for each season, so we can look at the "trajectory"?

Also, did anyone else notice we did fairly well with "No Coach" from 90-94? Perhaps we can go back in that direction?

"No Coach" has signed a long, lucrative contract with the San Diego Chargers. There's no way we'd be able to get him back.

Lavabe
10-08-2007, 01:27 PM
You mean Carolina isn't some completely unique paradise of nubile coeds just waiting for settlement by hunky Duke explorers? My head is spinning. :cool:

Are you getting UNC mixed up with Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094834/)?:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

YmoBeThere
10-08-2007, 01:41 PM
"No Coach" has signed a long, lucrative contract with the San Diego Chargers. There's no way we'd be able to get him back.

ROFL...anyone know his agent? I could use some representation.

Bluedawg
10-08-2007, 02:10 PM
Interesting, does anyone have a historical(year-by-year) reference for each season, so we can look at the "trajectory"?

Also, did anyone else notice we did fairly well with "No Coach" from 90-94? Perhaps we can go back in that direction?

My link did....This board does not post graphs well so i didn't do all of it.

YmoBeThere
10-08-2007, 02:21 PM
My link did....This board does not post graphs well so i didn't do all of it.

I was thinking in terms of 1994 - Goldsmith coached team had : 6 wins 5 loses, year 2: 2 wins 9 losses, etc. There must be a link to a guide/stat/year book somewhere. Otherwise I will have to pick one up while in Durham this weekend.

Wander
10-08-2007, 02:34 PM
My god. Why is Lewis-Asack even an argument? Do you guys not realize that he's probably the best quarterback in our ACC division? To have a quarterback this good for Duke is huge - and he's only a sophomore! This shouldn't be a question at all.

And to those of you who think that this is just like last year - do you even watch the games? I mean, seriously? Do you not remember getting shut out by Richmond at home, shut out by UVA at home, shut out by Virginia Tech, blown out by FSU, Navy, Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt (at home!) and Boston College?

I'm not saying Roof is going to be the savior of Duke football, and I'm tired of moral victories as much as anyone, but anyone who doesn't think we're going in the right direction right now and that we've improved from last year just isn't paying attention.

YmoBeThere
10-08-2007, 02:50 PM
do you even watch the games?

Ummm, no. They don't televise them up here...

johnb
10-08-2007, 04:58 PM
Jumbo, thanks for the series of clarifications.

There are several people whose posts are so consistently snide and negative that I wonder why they bother to read dbr. Interestingly, their screennames tend to refer to the university or one of its employees, which seems like an odd choice given their apparent antipathy for the institution.

-jk
10-08-2007, 06:50 PM
Enough Roof bashing for this week. It's getting too repetitive. This thread is closed.

-jk