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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 80, Florida St 65 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-25-2016, 08:56 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

TKG
02-25-2016, 08:57 PM
Workmanlike.

statik73
02-25-2016, 09:03 PM
Jeter had an great game. That block was awesome.

This team seems very balanced and unselfish.

kAzE
02-25-2016, 09:03 PM
I'd almost forgotten what it feels like to win comfortably. Plumlee was player of the game for me. Jeter making huge strides.

Best thing about the game: no injuries!

wsb3
02-25-2016, 09:07 PM
Nice to have one where I can relax at the end.

10 wins in the conference from 4-4.. Amazing job. I know he will not get consideration but I think Coach K should be in the running for coach of the year.

JETER.. he looked like he belonged.

I really like this team..

Karl Beem
02-25-2016, 09:08 PM
Chase!:):):)

jv001
02-25-2016, 09:14 PM
Contributions from everyone that saw action. I like what I'm seeing from Jeter as he continues his journey. Matt hit some nice three pointers but I don't think he's 100% just yet. Grayson being his pesky self and getting into the lane. Good game from Ingram but he looked worn out at one point in the 2nd half. I thought Coach K might take him out for a breather but he didn't. Good game from Luke off the bench. I like the way he shoots the midrange shot. Almost a lost art these days. Derryck's foul trouble was the only negative from my standpoint. He reverted back to his first of the year propensity to make some dumb fouls. He can't do that in big games. On to Pitt and hopefully another win. GoDuke!

Saratoga2
02-25-2016, 09:15 PM
When they started out cold and looked jittery I wondered whether they were suffering a little from the previous game. In a couple of minutes theSy got down to Duke basketball and things took off from there. Some takeaways from the game:
1. Matt seemed to be back and didn't appear to be favoring his ankle
2. Chase had his best game yet and at times played well enough to stay in the game indefinitely. Perhaps the opposition was weaker, but he looked good.
3. Luke had impressive minutes on both sides of the ball.
4. Derryck seemed to overly react to the physical defense and perhaps talking going on by fouling and being a bit overaggressive. We need him in the game.
5. Both Grayson and Brandon had excellent games and are stalwarts for this team.
6. MP3 had many excellent moments but at times seem to revert to issues handling the ball. All in all still a very good performance.

We now have 6 solid players that give us great offensive efficiency, good defense and some depth inside. Amile will hopefully be back this weekend to give us depth. We have a team that can make some noise in the tournament.

Doria
02-25-2016, 09:18 PM
Agree with those above that said it was nice to watch without total stress. I liked that we got the early lead and maintained it, without being so gassed by the end that we end up making it competitive.

Great game for Chase! Love to see him building on the positive minutes he gave us at Louisville.

Atldukie79
02-25-2016, 09:28 PM
Nice win...very low turnover rate until the last 7 minutes or so, then a combination of fatigue and slowing the pace contributed to some weak turnovers.

Thornton looked "handsy" on defense. He needs to avoid the ticky-tacky fouls on the perimeter.
Ingram is getting banged around on drives with few calls. So much for freedom of movement.

dukie’s_daughter
02-25-2016, 09:29 PM
We now have 6 solid players that give us great offensive efficiency, good defense and some depth inside. Amile will hopefully be back this weekend to give us depth. We have a team that can make some noise in the tournament.


With Chase emerging, I count 7
😀

Saratoga2
02-25-2016, 09:34 PM
With Chase emerging, I count 7
😀

If Jeter can repeat against the better teams I agree. He certainly had an excellent game tonight.

Faison1
02-25-2016, 09:44 PM
If Jeter can repeat against the better teams I agree. He certainly had an excellent game tonight.

Remember the years where we seemed to be best in November and December? It seems like the distant past, no?

I like how our teams seem to be improving as the year goes on. Kind of like K's teams of the '80's and '90's.

fidel
02-25-2016, 09:51 PM
Greetings, Mr Jeter. We have been awaiting your arrival.

dukelifer
02-25-2016, 09:55 PM
Impressive win by the guys tonight. They were a bit drained but everyone brought their lunchpail and worked. I thought Marshall and Chase were excellent against a big front line. Jeter may have had one of his better performances as a Devil. If he can keep that up- Duke is that much better. Jones was solid and hit some big shots. At times, Kennard was the best player on the floor. He has a knack for being at the right place at the right time. He is getting better and better. Of course Grayson and Ingram are Duke's best players and they just battled tonight. No game has shown the growth of this team more than tonight. This is a good basketball team now. The D is consistent and lots of guys can score the ball. They can certainly hang with anyone and it didn't feel that way a month ago. K and the coaches have done a masterful job with this group.

luburch
02-25-2016, 09:55 PM
Did you all catch Grayson's trip at the end of the game? It's making the rounds on social media again. :(

freshmanjs
02-25-2016, 09:57 PM
Did you all catch Grayson's trip at the end of the game? It's making the rounds on social media again. :(

He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

CameronBlue
02-25-2016, 10:12 PM
He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

What is going through this kid's head? He doesn't need to be doing that kind of thing. Maybe the two had words during the game, maybe something the fans and cameras would not notice but there other ways to settle the score, winning the game chief among them. Tripping someone is just dangerous and stupid.

Billy Dat
02-25-2016, 10:13 PM
Workmanlike.

No doubt, which is exactly what I was looking for in terms of having a game we needed to win, should win comfortably based on recent growth, and we did win comfortably despite our primary scorers not really "having it going". After that horrible cold start, we took care of business.


Jeter had an great game. That block was awesome.

Jeter was fantastic, the first time he has looked like he belonged as part of this group...a couple of charges, a couple of finishes, that signature block, he keeps getting better.


Plumlee was player of the game for me.

Me too. I really can't get over his offense. How about that McHale-esque low post sequence in the first half? Aside from picking up a dumb second foul 30 feet from the basket, he was solid all game.


No game has shown the growth of this team more than tonight. This is a good basketball team now. The D is consistent and lots of guys can score the ball. They can certainly hang with anyone and it didn't feel that way a month ago. K and the coaches have done a masterful job with this group.

Agree with all of this.

Thornton's dumb fouls limited him, but we can deal with that kind of aberration now. When he was out there, his pressure made a big difference. I am extremely impressed with Grayson's drive and kick playmaking and his leadership. I can deal with his chippy behavior as it is part of his overall elan. When we were cold at the start, he very simply scored 8 straight to get us going. THAT is leadership - production when needed, kind of like when Matt hits those big 3s (but, boy, he missed ugly a few times tonight). Kennard was solid - this team has developed great chemistry and the D seems to be staying good - although FSU was pretty bad on that end.

Bring on the Panthers, and, hopefully, Mr. Jefferson.

Dukeford
02-25-2016, 10:13 PM
He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

I saw it, and I agree. Definitely not cool.

FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 10:19 PM
He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

Yea, definitely.

And he does it like he's not being seen on video and won't have it retweeted and shared a billion times.

bluenorth
02-25-2016, 10:20 PM
Nice to see Jeter making a positive contribution. The fans sure enjoyed it too. The team is already looking solid for the future, assuming that only Ingram bolts at the end of the year. But its too early to think like that - plenty of time after the tournament. For now I think I'll just enjoy watching them mature.

Did anyone else catch word of a photo of the players taking shelter during a tornado warning?

Newton_14
02-25-2016, 10:28 PM
Yea, definitely.

And he does it like he's not being seen on video and won't have it retweeted and shared a billion times.

Ok. Officially lost here. I was at the game. Did not see a trip or a play where FSU lost their minds?

Write up forthcoming on the game.

luburch
02-25-2016, 10:28 PM
Yea, definitely.

And he does it like he's not being seen on video and won't have it retweeted and shared a billion times.

Don't worry, the SportsCenter and the ESPN Twitter accounts have both picked it up and tweeted out a video titled "Grayson up to his old tricks again"

FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 10:29 PM
Ok. Officially lost here. I was at the game. Did not see a trip or a play where FSU lost their minds?

Write up forthcoming on the game.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/02/25/video-grayson-allen-cant-stop-tripping-people/

freshmanjs
02-25-2016, 10:29 PM
Ok. Officially lost here. I was at the game. Did not see a trip or a play where FSU lost their minds?

Write up forthcoming on the game.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14847618&sf21569369=1

BluePanda
02-25-2016, 10:34 PM
The video quality isn't great, but based on the Louisville game, you can't give Grayson the benefit of the doubt here. Terrible decision by him.

Obviously you can't do that at any point in the game, but to do it with seconds left in the game and up 15 is all the more stupid.

Listen to Quants
02-25-2016, 10:34 PM
Nice to have one where I can relax at the end.

10 wins in the conference from 4-4.. Amazing job. I know he will not get consideration but I think Coach K should be in the running for coach of the year.

JETER.. he looked like he belonged.

I really like this team..

Right you are. BUT, and it's a but but, since he is the widely acknowledge GOAT, (I think most now think his 'era correction' moves him past Wooden) we Duke folks can simply laugh at the failures to give him the minor awards :)

Billy Dat
02-25-2016, 10:34 PM
K presser notes:

-We won because we didn't give up transition buckets and we didn't turn the ball over
-Jeter gave us a big lift, he's been a different player the past 3 weeks
-Plumlee is playing at an extremely high level, said he watched tape of last year vs FSU and MP3 looks 3 years older, his "stepping after" after the Amile injury has been huge
-The guys are in great shape but they are tired because they are giving all they have to give, he can't praise them enough
-He was really worried about fatigue in the second half, worried that "although we were ahead on the scorecard, we could get knocked out". He has really been using these boxing metaphors for the past few years
-Matt Jones is our best defensive player and a big part of losing at Louisville was Lee scoring because Matt wasn't there to guard him
-Side note, there must have been some adorable little girl at the presser because K started out talking to her and let her ask the first question.

Billy Dat
02-25-2016, 10:37 PM
As for Grayson and the tripping...yeah, bad look, but we want him on that wall, we need him on that wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg

Karl Beem
02-25-2016, 10:38 PM
The video isn't great, but based on the Louisville game, you can't give Grayson the benefit of the doubt here. Terrible decision by him.

Obviously you can't do that at any point in the game, but to do it with seconds left in the game and up 15 is all the more stupid.

You got me there.:confused:

jipops
02-25-2016, 10:44 PM
Yea, definitely.

And he does it like he's not being seen on video and won't have it retweeted and shared a billion times.

Well it's pretty much headline news for espn as they promote the Grayson Allen hate porn they started before the season. I've already gotten 3 notifications about it on my phone from the espn app.

It was intentional and dumb, no question about it. He can't let his emotions get the best of him, no matter how much he is hammered throughout the game.

Newton_14
02-25-2016, 10:54 PM
Had a chance to attend tonight and sit/stand in Section 19. (The very loud and drunk FSU fan yelling at Brandon to miss the Free Throws was right in front of me. 10 sheets in the wind, but a good drunk. He was a riot. Glad K did not have him tossed though he did give him a stern look).

After the slow start, I thought we played really really well, and played as a team on both sides. Very good defense. And I don't think any of Derryck's fouls were stupid. They attacked him hard, and were very very physical with him on their drives with push offs and body blows, obviously trying to use their size and strength advantage over him. I thought he played really well. He has finally eliminated the bad mental mistakes that plagued him for so long.

This game had a plethora of human highlight reel plays! Dang! (A couple by the wrong team unfortunately, but all good since we won). The Chase Jeter "get that outa here dude" block on the reverse dunk attempt. MP3's nasty dunk over the FSU Center. Grayson's coast to coast sprint to pin the layup attempt off the glass. Side Bar: Grayson had just gotten fouled at the other end with no call... gets really pissed which energized him in the sprint back to block the FSU layup attempt, which was 100% clean, and to make it worse, they called the foul on Kennard who never touched the guy either. Really bad sequence for the zebra's. Side Bar Two: The replay clearly showed Derryck's 2nd foul was BS as well. He never touched the shooter's arm. But back to highlight reel... MP3 had another great lob dunk off an inbounds play late. Finally, one of the FSU super frosh had a sick drive and dunk in the first half as well. Really good game for "wow" plays.

Chase> Easily his best game to date in a Blue Devil uniform. So great to see. He missed the shot, but that turn around jumphook off an offensive rebound was a thing of beauty. Very smoothe and fluid. His defense was really good as well. That block on the dunk attempt made my evening. He has just come a really long way, and convinced me he is going to be a very good 4 year player for Duke.

Grayson was Grayson. Did not go to the line nearly as many times as he should have. Coach K once again, thought that was just "Amazing" in his post game presser. Say what you want about him, but he takes a ton of contact drive after drive, game after game that goes uncalled, and then they will call a touch foul on the other end. Same for Brandon. Every drive those two attempted tonight were met with linebackers shooting the gap, and defensive back coming up to support the run. :)

Kennard reminds me very much of freshman Kyle Singler. He is super fundamentally sound and I thought Singler had the best fundamentals I had ever seen a Freshman have. Heck his two hand inbound passes with nobody defending were textbook! Kennard is cut from that same mold. He is also very very crafty. He made two unbelievable shots tonight off rebounds/broken play type deals, both with his right hand. I commented in texting with Westwall that watching Kennard create ad hoc shots like that reminds me of Phil Mickelson creating with his wedge on chip shots. Bad analogy maybe, but that is what comes to mind.

Matt was solid, despite still being slowed with the ankle in my opinion, and Plumlee was a beast. What a player. I don't think any of us ever imagined that Marshall would be this good of a player getting 35ish minutes per game. Just unreal. On both ends of the floor. It is just wonderful to see a player develop like that over a 4 to 5 year career like the old days. Very refreshing.

Agree this team has come a long way from when the cheat fans were walking by my desk 10 times a day chanting NIT NIT NIT... yeah... about that...

On to Pitt! Go Duke!

WiJoe
02-25-2016, 11:05 PM
He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

He's certainly giving everyone outside the program reason to hate. Agree. It's a bad look.

Billy Dat
02-25-2016, 11:21 PM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!

lotusland
02-25-2016, 11:21 PM
As for Grayson and the tripping...yeah, bad look, but we want him on that wall, we need him on that wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg

I just don't know. It looks really strange. The guy walked up behind Grayson, and kinda rubbed up against him. The FSU guy was directly behind him then it seemed like he made a really quick move toward the other end at the same time Grayson's leg went back. On one hand I don't know why Grayson would move his leg back like that but, on the other hand, how could he have even known the guy was going to suddenly move in that direction? He was not even glancing back when it happened. I just don't see how he could have anticipated the movement in time to trip the guy in that situation. Also the ref was right on top of it and actually came up to the FSU player and talked to him afterwards. Neither Grayson, the FSU player Nor the ref react like they thought Grayson intentionally tripped the guy.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-25-2016, 11:22 PM
Jeez ESPN. Their entire lead-in highlight was Grayson tripping. It looks like Rathan-Mayes got in his grill or something over on the sideline moments before Grayson tripped him. No excuse. He has to be the bigger man there. But it's also clear that opponents are keying on him and egging him on.

Ballboy1998
02-25-2016, 11:24 PM
Nice game by all.

Unlike the prior one, I thought this trip was unintentional. Their feet got tangled and Grayson's foot got pulled up by the contact where it looked like he stuck it out. Maybe a case of tinted glasses, but I think this one was just unfortunate looking.

FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 11:28 PM
Jeez ESPN. Their entire lead-in highlight was Grayson tripping. It looks like Rathan-Mayes got in his grill or something over on the sideline moments before Grayson tripped him. No excuse. He has to be the bigger man there. But it's also clear that opponents are keying on him and egging him on.

Agreed.

I actually had a problem with that entire last minute or so of the game.

FSU kept playing like they were only down 2, but were down 15. Refs weren't making foul calls on the physical play because they wanted the clock to run. Duke was diving for loose balls.

At what point do you just concede the game and keep everyone healthy and not suspended?

FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 11:30 PM
Nice game by all.

Unlike the prior one, I thought this trip was unintentional. Their feet got tangled and Grayson's foot got pulled up by the contact where it looked like he stuck it out. Maybe a case of tinted glasses, but I think this one was just unfortunate looking.

It may have been unintentional, but the leg motion was unnatural. It looked like he was reacting so something XRM did.

But it's another in a series of dust ups Allen's been involved in, so I can see where people might start questioning the motives.

As for Allen, I imagine getting beat up all night and getting to the line just twice probably boiled over into frustration.

duke4ever19
02-25-2016, 11:31 PM
60316032

Hey Grayson!

weezie
02-25-2016, 11:32 PM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!,

Right on Billy! I think we're all comfortable owning it. It's the simpering pinheads that get on this fan's nerves.... but yeah I love owning it!

Billy Dat
02-25-2016, 11:34 PM
Brett Strelow of the Fayetteville Observer nailed the Grayson thing, nice reporting here:
http://www.fayobserver.com/blogs/sports/acc_basketball/bret-strelow-through-contact-no-calls-and-trips-duke-s/article_517c3ca0-dc3c-11e5-92ed-bffbbff79c15.html

And I quote BadMofo the Gray:

"He wanted to keep playing physical, so I tried to walk away from it as he was grabbing me," Allen said. "We ended up tangling up and falling. It was really nothing."

"I think I'm handling it pretty well," he said. "Obviously, I'm a very emotional guy. I think everyone knows that on the court. There are a lot of times where I let that out, but I think I'd have a few more technicals if I wasn't controlling it well."

"It's a product of the way I play, and it's a product of the other team not wanting me to play that way," Allen said. "I know that I'm going to be on the scouting report as one of our top scorers with Brandon (Ingram), and they're going to come after us. We kind of set ourselves up where early in the year everyone saw the game plan should be to be physical against us. That's how it's been, and that's what people think our weaknesses are.

"For me and Brandon, we have to be really strong and really tough physically and mentally each night, knowing we're going to get those blows."

"I'm not going to take anything from anyone," Allen said. "Whatever someone's dishing out to me, inside the game and inside the rules of the game, I'm going to give it right back. It doesn't matter to me what kind of physical contact I get, I'm not looking to the ref to bail me out. I'm playing physical right back, and I think that shows in my driving ability, how I attack, how I'm getting open for the ball.

"I'm going to be just as physical with that person as they are with me."

And to be even more polarizing, when it come to Grayson, I am going to side with Malcolm over MLK

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys a community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think there are plenty of good people in America, but there are also plenty of bad people in America and the bad ones are the ones who seem to have all the power and be in these positions to block things that you and I need. Because this is the situation, you and I have to preserve the right to do what is necessary to bring an end to that situation, and it doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't even call it violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence.

- Malcolm X

Furniture
02-25-2016, 11:45 PM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!

It's very unfortunate but it looks like it's on purpose. It all adds up which means that he is earning his reputation which might be acceptable to us fans but it will not do him any good.

gofurman
02-25-2016, 11:45 PM
K presser notes:

-We won because we didn't give up transition buckets and we didn't turn the ball over
-Jeter gave us a big lift, he's been a different player the past 3 weeks
-Plumlee is playing at an extremely high level, said he watched tape of last year vs FSU and MP3 looks 3 years older, his "stepping after" after the Amile injury has been huge
-The guys are in great shape but they are TIRED because they are giving all they have to give, he can't praise them enough
-He was really worried about FATIGUE in the second half, worried that "although we were ahead on the scorecard, we could get knocked out". He has really been using these boxing metaphors for the past few years
-Matt Jones is our best defensive player and a big part of losing at Louisville was Lee scoring because Matt wasn't there to guard him
-Side note, there must have been some adorable little girl at the presser because K started out talking to her and let her ask the first question.

If K admits we are tired and have a lot of fatigue .. Which he does... Why not sit Ingram for just a few minutes since Jeter is playing a little better now?? Up 12 points or so give Ingram a pre-commercial break seat so he gets a few minutes of rest. Do this just once or twice and it buys Ingram an extra five minutes of break time with the way commercials are now... And Jeter plays the 4/5. Do this at the 13:00 mark and 9:00 minute mark or so? Thus giving Ingram a few minutes break until the under 12 and under 8. Seems obvious if K is going to admit we are tired and fatigued. Thoughts??

Newton_14
02-26-2016, 12:02 AM
Agreed.

I actually had a problem with that entire last minute or so of the game.

FSU kept playing like they were only down 2, but were down 15. Refs weren't making foul calls on the physical play because they wanted the clock to run. Duke was diving for loose balls.

At what point do you just concede the game and keep everyone healthy and not suspended?

What they did to Matt at the end when he was trying to dribble the clock out was ridiculous, and sorry, but it is crap like that that leads to players being "harmed"... I recall a scene from circa 2002 against BC before they were in the ACC with JWill. JWill was trying to dribble out the clock in a game that was over but the BC guy kept defending like the National Title was one steal and bucket away. Jason gave him a goading fake with the ball and the BC guy clocked him. Jason was in the wrong and should have taken the high road, but the BC guy caused the entire thing.

The crowd tonight started chanting "Just go home" after Matt was mugged on the double team.

JMarley50
02-26-2016, 12:05 AM
Brett Strelow of the Fayetteville Observer nailed the Grayson thing, nice reporting here:
http://www.fayobserver.com/blogs/sports/acc_basketball/bret-strelow-through-contact-no-calls-and-trips-duke-s/article_517c3ca0-dc3c-11e5-92ed-bffbbff79c15.html

And I quote BadMofo the Gray:

"He wanted to keep playing physical, so I tried to walk away from it as he was grabbing me," Allen said. "We ended up tangling up and falling. It was really nothing."

"I think I'm handling it pretty well," he said. "Obviously, I'm a very emotional guy. I think everyone knows that on the court. There are a lot of times where I let that out, but I think I'd have a few more technicals if I wasn't controlling it well."

"It's a product of the way I play, and it's a product of the other team not wanting me to play that way," Allen said. "I know that I'm going to be on the scouting report as one of our top scorers with Brandon (Ingram), and they're going to come after us. We kind of set ourselves up where early in the year everyone saw the game plan should be to be physical against us. That's how it's been, and that's what people think our weaknesses are.

"For me and Brandon, we have to be really strong and really tough physically and mentally each night, knowing we're going to get those blows."

"I'm not going to take anything from anyone," Allen said. "Whatever someone's dishing out to me, inside the game and inside the rules of the game, I'm going to give it right back. It doesn't matter to me what kind of physical contact I get, I'm not looking to the ref to bail me out. I'm playing physical right back, and I think that shows in my driving ability, how I attack, how I'm getting open for the ball.

"I'm going to be just as physical with that person as they are with me."

And to be even more polarizing, when it come to Grayson, I am going to side with Malcolm over MLK

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys a community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think there are plenty of good people in America, but there are also plenty of bad people in America and the bad ones are the ones who seem to have all the power and be in these positions to block things that you and I need. Because this is the situation, you and I have to preserve the right to do what is necessary to bring an end to that situation, and it doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't even call it violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence.

- Malcolm X

I am in the same camp as you! The last time I checked, basketball is still a contact sport. XRM earned that trip. The game was over and he knew it. No one is talking about him diving into Grayson's knees a few minutes before that. The people who are getting worked up about this probably also think they should do away with handshake lines after games.

duke4ever19
02-26-2016, 12:07 AM
It's very unfortunate but it looks like it's on purpose. It all adds up which means that he is earning his reputation which might be acceptable to us fans but it will not do him any good.

Maybe they'll do a 30 for 30 on him called, 'I Hate Grayson Allen.' ;)

I mean, he's already got a championship (took over that game), is a tough player with a killer instinct. He's got a buzzer beater. He tripped a guy too (maybe two). And now he's become a hated player. Grayson, give Laettner a call and figure out how to channel the hate to your benefit.

Edouble
02-26-2016, 12:11 AM
What they did to Matt at the end when he was trying to dribble the clock out was ridiculous, and sorry, but it is crap like that that leads to players being "harmed"... I recall a scene from circa 2002 against BC before they were in the ACC with JWill. JWill was trying to dribble out the clock in a game that was over but the BC guy kept defending like the National Title was one steal and bucket away. Jason gave him a goading fake with the ball and the BC guy clocked him. Jason was in the wrong and should have taken the high road, but the BC guy caused the entire thing.

The crowd tonight started chanting "Just go home" after Matt was mugged on the double team.

Well he didn't hit Jason, but he did push him into the scorer's table. Troy Bell, that is.

Edouble
02-26-2016, 12:14 AM
I just don't know. It looks really strange. The guy walked up behind Grayson, and kinda rubbed up against him. The FSU guy was directly behind him then it seemed like he made a really quick move toward the other end at the same time Grayson's leg went back. On one hand I don't know why Grayson would move his leg back like that but, on the other hand, how could he have even known the guy was going to suddenly move in that direction? He was not even glancing back when it happened. I just don't see how he could have anticipated the movement in time to trip the guy in that situation. Also the ref was right on top of it and actually came up to the FSU player and talked to him afterwards. Neither Grayson, the FSU player Nor the ref react like they thought Grayson intentionally tripped the guy.

I agree with all of this. It's not like Grayson has eyes in the back of his head.

The leg moving back motion is something I do all the time. Picked it up playing soccer. It's just kind of a thing that I do, like shaking out my wrists or rolling my shoulders around.

JMarley50
02-26-2016, 12:18 AM
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/57/57a9a08867485e608252776742b5ba2d0583034f84e5465391 46b73272e024d5.jpg

Can we get Grayson's face photoshopped onto this? Kid is ruthless!

duke09hms
02-26-2016, 12:31 AM
If K admits we are tired and have a lot of fatigue .. Which he does... Why not sit Ingram for just a few minutes since Jeter is playing a little better now?? Up 12 points or so give Ingram a pre-commercial break seat so he gets a few minutes of rest. Do this just once or twice and it buys Ingram an extra five minutes of break time with the way commercials are now... And Jeter plays the 4/5. Do this at the 13:00 mark and 9:00 minute mark or so? Thus giving Ingram a few minutes break until the under 12 and under 8. Seems obvious if K is going to admit we are tired and fatigued. Thoughts??

K knows Ingram is key to a deep postseason run, and we're going to need to play him heavy minutes to maximize our matchup advantage. This way, we get him good practice for playing through fatigue.

kAzE
02-26-2016, 01:18 AM
I just don't know. It looks really strange. The guy walked up behind Grayson, and kinda rubbed up against him. The FSU guy was directly behind him then it seemed like he made a really quick move toward the other end at the same time Grayson's leg went back. On one hand I don't know why Grayson would move his leg back like that but, on the other hand, how could he have even known the guy was going to suddenly move in that direction? He was not even glancing back when it happened. I just don't see how he could have anticipated the movement in time to trip the guy in that situation. Also the ref was right on top of it and actually came up to the FSU player and talked to him afterwards. Neither Grayson, the FSU player Nor the ref react like they thought Grayson intentionally tripped the guy.

That was my thought on review of the play. I still don't understand why it's so widely presumed intentional. He may have tried to create some contact with XRM, but probably with no intent of actually tripping the guy. Grayson could not possibly have known that XRM was going to start sprinting towards the other end of the court at that exact moment. Unless, of course, Grayson is a Jedi. That would explain it.

Olympic Fan
02-26-2016, 02:04 AM
With five straight losses. Florida State has dropped from NCAA consideration to 10th place in the ACC -- and are on pace to play Tuesday in the first round at the ACC Tournament.

They are at 6-10 and in 10th place ... half a game behind ninth-place Georgia Tech (6-9).

But Tech gets Boston College Saturday for an almost sure seventh win, plus they have the head-to-head tiebreaker against FSU.

So it's very likely that FSU opens the tournament playing No. 14 seed Boston College Tuesday afternoon -- and having to win five games in five day to win the ACC.

As for Grayson, I are the trip -- intentional or not -- is something I wish he hadn't done.

But I want to talk about the play late in the first half, when he drove just right of the lane and got hammered by Koumadje ... with no call. Grayson was so angry that he sprinted down the court and ended by making a soaring leap to block Rathan-Mayes shot (after Luke was called for a bogus foul on the play). The play brought flashbacks of the David Thompson play against Pitt in the '74 East regional title game. Thompson was also angry at a blatant no call and he raced down court and soared to block a shot. In his case, his heel clipped shoulder of teammate Phil Spence and Thompson took one of the mot horrific falls I've ever seen on the basketball court, landing on his head -- people thought he was dead (Walter Cronkite, watching from New York, thought so and tried calling a Raleigh hospital to get confirmation). Grayson was luckier. He did get undercut by Rathan-Mayes on the play, but he was not injured.

I was just wondering after watching the Louisville and now FSU games -- have the refs decided Grayson is now fair game when he drives? Against FSU, he didn't draw a single foul on the drive (despite half a dozen contact plays). His only free throws came on a defensive rebound.

JPtheGame
02-26-2016, 02:11 AM
Great bounce back game by all involved. Chase Jeter continues to make me eat my words which are now delicious.
As for 3, easy solution; If he gets frustrated he should simply elbow people in the face as hard as humanly possible. I mean really drive their heads back into the floor. Then, to make sure you get your point across, stand over the injured player with your fists balled up until people show up and drag you away.
I learned this little trick from the last louisville game. No lead ins on sportscenter, no special articles, no twitter explosion, no calling for suspensions.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-26-2016, 03:25 AM
What they did to Matt at the end when he was trying to dribble the clock out was ridiculous, and sorry, but it is crap like that that leads to players being "harmed"... I recall a scene from circa 2002 against BC before they were in the ACC with JWill. JWill was trying to dribble out the clock in a game that was over but the BC guy kept defending like the National Title was one steal and bucket away. Jason gave him a goading fake with the ball and the BC guy clocked him. Jason was in the wrong and should have taken the high road, but the BC guy caused the entire thing.

The crowd tonight started chanting "Just go home" after Matt was mugged on the double team.

Absolutely correct.

Nothing happens entirely in a vacuum. Grayson has been pushed, hand checked, elbowed, grabbed, poked, etc. all season long.

If every time Allen was fouled was actually whistled, he'd be at the foul line at a Hansbroughnian pace right now.

Taking that much physical contact will only naturally cause frustration to build.

As will seeing national articles written by "Professionals" stating you are the next most hated player in the country.

"Congrats Grayson - Everyone hates you!" so says ESPN, USA Today, and all of talk radio.

Yeah, I'm sure that doesn't effect your emotions as a 19/20 year old.

Throw in the fact that Allen just got elbowed in the face intentionally the game prior and I think it's pretty easy to see why Grayson did what he did.

It's unfortunate, yes... But I can't say I blame the kid.

BigWayne
02-26-2016, 04:08 AM
Nice article at ESPN on the value of Matt Jones to this team. (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/111697/return-of-unheralded-matt-jones-solidifies-duke-lineup)


For the uninitiated, Matt Jones' game can be as generic as his name suggests. He isn't leading the Blue Devils in any particular category, but he may be the one player who holds it all together.

Matt Jones?

Yes.

Matt Jones.

ChicagoDevil
02-26-2016, 05:47 AM
Jeez ESPN. Their entire lead-in highlight was Grayson tripping. It looks like Rathan-Mayes got in his grill or something over on the sideline moments before Grayson tripped him. No excuse. He has to be the bigger man there. But it's also clear that opponents are keying on him and egging him on.

Totally agree. However, ESPN or as I call them "The Disney Channel" appear to have an agenda here.

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 06:58 AM
I just don't know. It looks really strange. The guy walked up behind Grayson, and kinda rubbed up against him. The FSU guy was directly behind him then it seemed like he made a really quick move toward the other end at the same time Grayson's leg went back. On one hand I don't know why Grayson would move his leg back like that but, on the other hand, how could he have even known the guy was going to suddenly move in that direction? He was not even glancing back when it happened. I just don't see how he could have anticipated the movement in time to trip the guy in that situation. Also the ref was right on top of it and actually came up to the FSU player and talked to him afterwards. Neither Grayson, the FSU player Nor the ref react like they thought Grayson intentionally tripped the guy.

I believe the FSU guy pushed off on Grayson... I don't know why Grayson's leg went up like that, I have to believe he meant to do it - probably out of reflex, but the FSU guy really had no reason to be all over Grayson in the first place... they were on offense and Grayson had his back to him.

GA plays a little chippy, I happen to like that, but I'm not a fan of the trips, I prefer chest shoves.:rolleyes:

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-26-2016, 07:20 AM
I believe the FSU guy pushed off on Grayson... I don't know why Grayson's leg went up like that, I have to believe he meant to do it - probably out of reflex, but the FSU guy really had no reason to be all over Grayson in the first place... they were on offense and Grayson had his back to him.

GA plays a little chippy, I happen to like that, but I'm not a fan of the trips, I prefer chest shoves.:rolleyes:
And there were only about 3 seconds left on the game clock I believe. I do think he did it on purpose. Hard to argue otherwise. But the FSU dudes had no business getting in GA's and Matt's grills as the clock wound down. They played very physical all game long. And lost. So, don't be a douchebag and instigate a fight like a little child. Take your loss like a man and "just go home."

-jk
02-26-2016, 07:36 AM
I believe the FSU guy pushed off on Grayson... I don't know why Grayson's leg went up like that, I have to believe he meant to do it - probably out of reflex, but the FSU guy really had no reason to be all over Grayson in the first place... they were on offense and Grayson had his back to him.

GA plays a little chippy, I happen to like that, but I'm not a fan of the trips, I prefer chest shoves.:rolleyes:

I found it interesting that the ref talked to the FSU guy and not Grayson; I think he knew who was responsible...

-jk

sandinmyshoes
02-26-2016, 07:41 AM
I fear that Grayson is building a reputation that is going to bite us at some point. While refs are supposed to call each game in more or less a vacuum, the truth is that they do not. You can see it coming, at some point he will be ejected based at least on part on the reputation he is building over an incident that would not merit such on its own.

I love his competitive nature, but he has to be smarter than this.

Mike Corey
02-26-2016, 07:49 AM
Unacceptable reaction from Grayson, IMO. Understandable, arguably--he's an emotional guy who thinks not backing down justifies retaliating. He needs to think about it some more. Grayson may not have been responsible for whatever happened prior to the trip, but he's very much responsible for his actions. And usually, refs only see the latter of the two.

I assure you, scouting reports not only identify Allen's scoring abilities, but his penchant for retaliation. No, he's not throwing punches or elbows. But this just won't do. We've had enough guys out with injuries this season; we can't afford to lose someone to bad behavior.

DukeWarhead
02-26-2016, 07:51 AM
Grayson be trippin'

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-26-2016, 07:55 AM
I assure you, scouting reports not only identify Allen's scoring abilities, but his penchant for retaliation. No, he's not throwing punches or elbows. But this just won't do. We've had enough guys out with injuries this season; we can't afford to lose someone to bad behavior.

Exactly this. I don't give a rip about what the headlines and Tweets say - I am much more concerned about results on the court. However, Grayson HAS to be smarter than than. Intentional or not, the visual is bad, and leads to this "reputation" where refs will watch his antics more closely.

You don't think UNC (or UVa) isn't going to go physical at him and try to get him to make a mistake? You think maybe he's burned through the benefit of the doubt with the refs? He could easily get tossed for something marginal in the wake of the last few high profile transgressions.

Play hard, play sharp, play smart! Go Duke!

DukeDevil
02-26-2016, 07:58 AM
Maybe they'll do a 30 for 30 on him called, 'I Hate Grayson Allen.' ;)

The way this season is going, they could do a 30 for 30 called "I hit Grayson Allen"

Anyone else notice how often they were shoving Plumlee from behind early in the game, and how he juked his defender when they tried to box him out, leaving his defender on the floor? I couldn't believe he had moves that quick!

gurufrisbee
02-26-2016, 08:17 AM
Only a star player from Duke could get smashed to the floor and be expected to lay motionless there until everyone else in the building goes home for fear that one of them might run into his leg while he is on the ground. :rolleyes:

luburch
02-26-2016, 08:25 AM
Chances he ends up getting suspended? I saw where the ACC said they would look at it.

Obviously I wish he wasn't doing it, but I also don't think it's nearly as "dangerous" as people make it out to be.

NashvilleDevil
02-26-2016, 08:33 AM
Chances he ends up getting suspended? I saw where the ACC said they would look at it.

Obviously I wish he wasn't doing it, but I also don't think it's nearly as "dangerous" as people make it out to be.

My guess is he is suspended for the Pitt game because the ACC will bow to ESPN and their narrative. Maybe the ACC comes out of it letting the refs know that they are missing a lot of physical play on Grayson.

sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 08:39 AM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!

I agree with you completely, Billy Dat, but I feel confident in predicting that Grayson is not gonna win the Wooden Award.

RepoMan
02-26-2016, 08:43 AM
Absolutely correct.

Nothing happens entirely in a vacuum. Grayson has been pushed, hand checked, elbowed, grabbed, poked, etc. all season long.

If every time Allen was fouled was actually whistled, he'd be at the foul line at a Hansbroughnian pace right now.

. . .

It's unfortunate, yes... But I can't say I blame the kid.

Second the foregoing completely.

Sure. He tripped the kid. But, Grayson had been physically hammered all game. Most likely, there had been smack talk all game too. It's physical. It's intense. Adrenaline is pumping. And, stuff happens. All the time.

The interesting thing to me is that because it is Duke and Grayson Allen, it becomes a headline story on ESPN. It is likely everything today. Whether the media initiates it or whether it simply serves up what the public demands, the reality is that everything gets shoved into a narrow narrative, fueling the polarization of everything: sports, politics, social issues, etc.

Anyway, the net effect is that Grayson (and Duke) gets more reviled. Hopefully, he can thrive on that sort of energy. He laready is having an exceptional season.

This team has been a joy to watch.

sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 08:44 AM
If K admits we are tired and have a lot of fatigue .. Which he does... Why not sit Ingram for just a few minutes since Jeter is playing a little better now?? Up 12 points or so give Ingram a pre-commercial break seat so he gets a few minutes of rest. Do this just once or twice and it buys Ingram an extra five minutes of break time with the way commercials are now... And Jeter plays the 4/5. Do this at the 13:00 mark and 9:00 minute mark or so? Thus giving Ingram a few minutes break until the under 12 and under 8. Seems obvious if K is going to admit we are tired and fatigued. Thoughts??

If you read the transcript, K agrees with you. He indicated the team would practice having MP3 and Chase on the court at the same time, suggesting that that has been a factor in not playing them together.

Channing
02-26-2016, 08:45 AM
Its a bad look. Unfortunately Grayson has put himself in the cross hairs and is likely going to have to endure tighter scrutiny than others. I hope Grayson has spoken to JJ about dealing with the frustration of constantly being grabbed and pulled. As many free throws as he shoots, he should probably shoot twice as many, though that will never happen.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-26-2016, 08:47 AM
Chances he ends up getting suspended? I saw where the ACC said they would look at it.

Obviously I wish he wasn't doing it, but I also don't think it's nearly as "dangerous" as people make it out to be.
Then they better look at the whole game and the entire last sequence. And go talk to the ref who took the fsu player aside instead of grayson. And then go look at the elbow to GA's jaw and make a ruling on that one.

What crap.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-26-2016, 08:49 AM
My guess is he is suspended for the Pitt game because the ACC will bow to ESPN and their narrative. Maybe the ACC comes out of it letting the refs know that they are missing a lot of physical play on Grayson.
If they do that, wallpaint everywhere better be scared of K's response.

sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 08:49 AM
Second the foregoing completely.

Sure. He tripped the kid. But, Grayson had been physically hammered all game. Most likely, there had been smack talk all game too. It's physical. It's intense. Adrenaline is pumping. And, stuff happens. All the time.

The interesting thing to me is that because it is Duke and Grayson Allen, it becomes a headline story on ESPN. It is likely everything today. Whether the media initiates it or whether it simply serves up what the public demands, the reality is that everything gets shoved into a narrow narrative, fueling the polarization of everything: sports, politics, social issues, etc.

Anyway, the net effect is that Grayson (and Duke) gets more reviled. Hopefully, he can thrive on that sort of energy. He laready is having an exceptional season.

This team has been a joy to watch.

Let me quote the master:


Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with.

-- Machiavelli, The Prince

dukebluesincebirth
02-26-2016, 08:54 AM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!

I'm right there with you billy! Grayson plays with the edge for a reason...Jeff Capel already talked about this when they were recruiting him. He said when many players see Grayson, there gonna think he's soft and try to take advantage of him. Grayson has to let people know that's not going to happen. That didn't stop when he graduated high school. He takes his hits (see Louisville), and he gives them back. I expect nothing less. I have to think K is instilling this in Grayson as well as Ingram. K knows our two best players need to be extremely tough, mentally and physically. Toughness is communicated in different ways, and I have no problem with that. As far as I know, Grayson hasn't come close to causing anyone any significant harm. Keep fighting young soldier!!!

-jk
02-26-2016, 08:59 AM
I'd love to see a "highlight" reel of all the grabs and pushes Grayson endures.

-jk

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-26-2016, 09:21 AM
A lot of this has to do with how teams are allowed to play against Duke. I watch a lot of hoops, and in Duke games the opponents are just allowed to run their mouths more often, or get in the faces of our players more often then in other games I watch. mild taunting that is usually reigned in never seems to bother refs in our games. It amazes me that our guys don't retaliate more often. Grayson has most likely had to play with a chip on his shoulder his whole life. Being the white guy on the court it comes with the territory, trust me I know. He has probably had the same treatment all throughout AAU and in High School, people can't keep up with his skill so they have to try to challenge him physically and mentally. I like that he doesn't back down, and I am happy that he hasn't thrown a fist or two at this point. I know seeing how he is treated on the court I would have flipped by now.

hsheffield
02-26-2016, 09:29 AM
Jeez ESPN. Their entire lead-in highlight was Grayson tripping. It looks like Rathan-Mayes got in his grill or something over on the sideline moments before Grayson tripped him. No excuse. He has to be the bigger man there. But it's also clear that opponents are keying on him and egging him on.

can't really tell from the video, but could it be that the FSU player accidentally hooked Grayson's leg (as GA was walking away) and pulled it back so that it looked like an intentional trip on Grayson's part?

btw, we care because now there's talk of suspending GA...not sure how likely that is, but it could affect our record and subsequent NCAA seeding

matts83
02-26-2016, 09:31 AM
Anyone else going to be refreshing Twitter to see if anything comes of this Grayson issue. We dont need another starter sitting on the bench.

fan345678
02-26-2016, 09:35 AM
Is anyone else concerned about the emergence of Chase Jeter? The introduction of a little-used player this late in the year is going to be very disruptive for our team. Does anyone else think we should just hold him out until next year, especially with the recruits we have coming?
: P

Billy Dat
02-26-2016, 09:36 AM
I agree that Grayson getting suspended would be a horrendous outcome, but he does not deserve to get suspended based on the evidence!!!!!!!

Can we compare his two trips to the kind of stuff Justise did last year...the exact same kind of trip, the yanking the kid's leg, the kick to the torso...was there ever this kind of scrutiny on Justise?!?!?

I don't think Justise deserved it and I don't think Grayson deserves this.

This is YELLOW JOURNALISM at its worst! Remember the Maine!

The World Wide Leader lives and dies with Duke, constantly using us as a lightning rod for clicks, views and all matter of attention. It helps us and it hurts us - our high profile is part of who we are and ESPN helped us get there - but they are desperate to create stories and debates for their increasingly debate-driven formats - Mike and Mike, Bayliss and Smith, everything on the radio, the list goes on. When they saw that foot go backwards, Bristol must have jumped for joy - HERE'S THE NEXT 24 HOURS!

Do I want Grayson to get suspended, no, but he doesn't deserve to and I refuse to apologize for his behavior or shame him.

Edouble
02-26-2016, 09:44 AM
I agree that Grayson getting suspended would be a horrendous outcome, but he does not deserve to get suspended based on the evidence!!!!!!!

Can we compare his two trips to the kind of stuff Justise did last year...the exact same kind of trip, the yanking the kid's leg, the kick to the torso...was there ever this kind of scrutiny on Justise?!?!?

I don't think Justise deserved it and I don't think Grayson deserves this.

This is YELLOW JOURNALISM at its worst! Remember the Maine!

The World Wide Leader lives and dies with Duke, constantly using us as a lightning rod for clicks, views and all matter of attention. It helps us and it hurts us - our high profile is part of who we are and ESPN helped us get there - but they are desperate to create stories and debates for their increasingly debate-driven formats - Mike and Mike, Bayliss and Smith, everything on the radio, the list goes on. When they saw that foot go backwards, Bristol must have jumped for joy - HERE'S THE NEXT 24 HOURS!

Do I want Grayson to get suspended, no, but he doesn't deserve to and I refuse to apologize for his behavior or shame him.

I was just about to mention the double standard with Grayson this year and Justise last year. Great point. I agree.

CDu
02-26-2016, 09:48 AM
I just don't know. It looks really strange. The guy walked up behind Grayson, and kinda rubbed up against him. The FSU guy was directly behind him then it seemed like he made a really quick move toward the other end at the same time Grayson's leg went back. On one hand I don't know why Grayson would move his leg back like that but, on the other hand, how could he have even known the guy was going to suddenly move in that direction? He was not even glancing back when it happened. I just don't see how he could have anticipated the movement in time to trip the guy in that situation. Also the ref was right on top of it and actually came up to the FSU player and talked to him afterwards. Neither Grayson, the FSU player Nor the ref react like they thought Grayson intentionally tripped the guy.


It may have been unintentional, but the leg motion was unnatural. It looked like he was reacting so something XRM did.

But it's another in a series of dust ups Allen's been involved in, so I can see where people might start questioning the motives.

As for Allen, I imagine getting beat up all night and getting to the line just twice probably boiled over into frustration.


It's very unfortunate but it looks like it's on purpose. It all adds up which means that he is earning his reputation which might be acceptable to us fans but it will not do him any good.


I agree with all of this. It's not like Grayson has eyes in the back of his head.

The leg moving back motion is something I do all the time. Picked it up playing soccer. It's just kind of a thing that I do, like shaking out my wrists or rolling my shoulders around.


That was my thought on review of the play. I still don't understand why it's so widely presumed intentional. He may have tried to create some contact with XRM, but probably with no intent of actually tripping the guy. Grayson could not possibly have known that XRM was going to start sprinting towards the other end of the court at that exact moment. Unless, of course, Grayson is a Jedi. That would explain it.


can't really tell from the video, but could it be that the FSU player accidentally hooked Grayson's leg (as GA was walking away) and pulled it back so that it looked like an intentional trip on Grayson's part?

btw, we care because now there's talk of suspending GA...not sure how likely that is, but it could affect our record and subsequent NCAA seeding

No, oldnavy has the right idea here:


I believe the FSU guy pushed off on Grayson... I don't know why Grayson's leg went up like that, I have to believe he meant to do it - probably out of reflex.

Rathan-Mayes uses his left hand to push off Allen's back, which is a typical move to create separation. The pushoff let Allen know EXACTLY which way Rathan-Mayes was going, even without looking. Allen then stuck his leg out backwards in an intentional tripping motion.

I'm quite sure it was not an isolated incident, but rather a reaction to a culmination of things. But if you think it was purely accidental, I think you're being overly generous to (or blinded by) the Duke blue. He knew full well where Rathan-Mayes was and where he was going. It was a split-second reaction by him, and it was wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, and Allen crossed the line in a very visible way.

Is it the end of the world? No. Justise Winslow had a couple of bad moments like that last year (his grabbing of Anderson's leg against UVa and his kick to the... midsection of Brice Johnson). But it wasn't a good move by Allen, especially given time and score. It's the type of thing you get away with in the heat of the moment (as he did), and in high school or AAU you could probably get away with saying it never happened. But when there are cameras all over the place in a nationally-televised game, he needs to have more discretion. He's going to get heat on this one, and deservedly so. And it is unfortunate, because we were 3 seconds away from the game being over.

As for the game itself, it was a workmanlike win. We shot extremely poorly for a long stretch in the first half, but we took over midway through the half and never really looked back. FSU was undersized and lacking the talent at nearly every position to beat Duke in Cameron, and it showed. The cream rose to the top, and we won a solid if not overly beautiful game.

Big kudos to Matt Jones for his defensive effort on Dwayne Bacon while playing on what was surely not a 100% ankle. Big kudos as well to Chase Jeter for a very solid effort off the bench, including a couple of highlight moments. If he can keep building on what he did this game, it will go a long way for us down the stretch. And kudos to Plumlee for dominating the matchup he was expected to dominate. On paper, FSU had no match for Plumlee, and the results sure did follow script. A very solid 13 and 10 (including 5 offensive rebounds); a workmanlike individual effort in a workmanlike game.

A solid, solid win. Hopefully these guys will get some rest and be ready to battle with another physical team in Pitt this weekend.

billy
02-26-2016, 09:51 AM
You don't think UNC (or UVa) isn't going to go physical at him and try to get him to make a mistake? You think maybe he's burned through the benefit of the doubt with the refs? He could easily get tossed for something marginal in the wake of the last few high profile transgressions.

Only partially joking when I say this: that would require UNC to have someone to "go physical at him". Toughness hasn't been a big part of their M.O. this year

CDu
02-26-2016, 09:53 AM
Only partially joking when I say this: that would require UNC to have someone to "go physical at him". Toughness hasn't been a big part of their M.O. this year

Yeah, teams like UVa, Miami, Syracuse, and Pitt will certainly go to that strategy. UNC? Not so much.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-26-2016, 09:59 AM
Yeah, teams like UVa, Miami, Syracuse, and Pitt will certainly go to that strategy. UNC? Not so much.

I referenced UNC due to the emotion of the game, but yes, a more physical team is of course more likely.

Anyway, my point stands - dumb mistakes like this put him and the team in. A position where they won't get the benefit of the doubt down the road.

I don't like it, and I don't like the pattern. Part of sportsmanship is turning the other cheek and winning on the floor instead of resulting to frustration moves like this.

Don't be surprised if a move like this - or lesser - plays a big role in March.

Ggallagher
02-26-2016, 10:02 AM
can't really tell from the video, but could it be that the FSU player accidentally hooked Grayson's leg (as GA was walking away) and pulled it back so that it looked like an intentional trip on Grayson's part?

btw, we care because now there's talk of suspending GA...not sure how likely that is, but it could affect our record and subsequent NCAA seeding

I just re-watched the play in extreme slow, stop action mode multiple times, and that's EXACTLY what it looks like - the FSU player hooked Grayson's leg and pulled it up. Watching it develop very slowly (stop action the whole way) you can see.

1) Grayson is walking towards the bench.
2) The FSU player walks into Grayson's back - absolutely no reason to do so with 4.7 seconds left on the clock.
3) Simultaneously Grayson begins leaning forward and the FSU play begins striding to move towards their basket.
4) And with Grayson's foot clearly on the floor, the FSU player hooks Grayson's calf with his foot.
5) The FSU player is breaking into a run (apparently) but has his foot hooked on Grayson's leg and goes down.
6) And then the ref goes STRAIGHT to the FSU player to talk to him.
7) The ref had a much better view of what happened from his perspective, and as far as I can tell he went directly to the source of the problem.

But not what we'll hear from ESPN.

jipops
02-26-2016, 10:08 AM
No, oldnavy has the right idea here:



Rathan-Mayes uses his left hand to push off Allen's back, which is a typical move to create separation. The pushoff let Allen know EXACTLY which way Rathan-Mayes was going, even without looking. Allen then stuck his leg out backwards in an intentional tripping motion.

I'm quite sure it was not an isolated incident, but rather a reaction to a culmination of things. But if you think it was purely accidental, I think you're being overly generous to (or blinded by) the Duke blue. He knew full well where Rathan-Mayes was and where he was going. It was a split-second reaction by him, and it was wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, and Allen crossed the line in a very visible way.

Is it the end of the world? No. Justise Winslow had a couple of bad moments like that last year (his grabbing of Anderson's leg against UVa and his kick to the... midsection of Brice Johnson). But it wasn't a good move by Allen, especially given time and score. It's the type of thing you get away with in the heat of the moment (as he did), and in high school or AAU you could probably get away with saying it never happened. But when there are cameras all over the place in a nationally-televised game, he needs to have more discretion. He's going to get heat on this one, and deservedly so. And it is unfortunate, because we were 3 seconds away from the game being over.

As for the game itself, it was a workmanlike win. We shot extremely poorly for a long stretch in the first half, but we took over midway through the half and never really looked back. FSU was undersized and lacking the talent at nearly every position to beat Duke in Cameron, and it showed. The cream rose to the top, and we won a solid if not overly beautiful game.

Big kudos to Matt Jones for his defensive effort on Dwayne Bacon while playing on what was surely not a 100% ankle. Big kudos as well to Chase Jeter for a very solid effort off the bench, including a couple of highlight moments. If he can keep building on what he did this game, it will go a long way for us down the stretch. And kudos to Plumlee for dominating the matchup he was expected to dominate. On paper, FSU had no match for Plumlee, and the results sure did follow script. A very solid 13 and 10 (including 5 offensive rebounds); a workmanlike individual effort in a workmanlike game.

A solid, solid win. Hopefully these guys will get some rest and be ready to battle with another physical team in Pitt this weekend.

I don't find Grayson's action even remotely defensible either. But it is interesting that nobody in the media, of course, even brings up Rathan smacking Grayson in the back of the head on that play...let alone what culminated leading up to the trip.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-26-2016, 10:16 AM
I don't find Grayson's action even remotely defensible either. But it is interesting that nobody in the media, of course, even brings up Rathan smacking Grayson in the back of the head on that play...let alone what culminated leading up to the trip.

Well, "he deserved it" is a pretty weak defense, in my book.

Steven43
02-26-2016, 10:18 AM
He really should stop doing that. Not cool.

Coach did not refer to Grayson as an 'as*ho*e' for nothing!

Come on, let GA figure this out in his own way and within his time frame. ESPN and other media sources have obviously decided to do everything possible to cast Gray as a villain and he is apparently just fine with that.

Toughness, intensity, and 100% desire for winning have ALWAYS been staples of Duke players under Coach.

Players such as King, Ferry, Hill, Dawkins, Laettner, Hurley, Woj, Capel, Battier, S. Williams, J. Williams, Redick, Singler, M. Jones, D. Jones, Marshall, T. Thornton,James, Carrawell--and MANY other Duke players over the years--fight and scrap for every loose ball, every rebound, every play that is needed until the clock reads 00:00, and sometimes beyond.

They can't always turn off the intensity immediately after the game is over. These guys are almost always super hyped-up and ready to sacrifice everything they have to bring glory to Duke University. And I thank them for it more than I can say. When you look around and see the lackadaisical attitude of so many other college basketball players you gain an even greater appreciation for guys like Grayson Allen. I try to cherish every moment he puts on a Duke uniform.

Ichabod Drain
02-26-2016, 10:20 AM
6038


6036

Bomar
02-26-2016, 10:21 AM
Did anyone see Nolan Smith sitting behind the bench last night?

superdave
02-26-2016, 10:21 AM
As for Grayson and the tripping...yeah, bad look, but we want him on that wall, we need him on that wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg

Justise kicked a guy last year and we wont the title....

I kid, I kid. Allen should be running wind sprints after practice to atone for his sins.

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 10:22 AM
6038


6036

That "villain" ship sailed as soon as people realized Allen was good at basketball and played for Duke.

DBFAN
02-26-2016, 10:25 AM
Best tweet regarding Allen, from Ben Swain

"Can we compromise and have Tally PD review the Grayson Allen video?"

kAzE
02-26-2016, 10:25 AM
That "villain" ship sailed as soon as people realized Allen was good at basketball and played for Duke.

And is white. Face it, nobody was calling Justise Winslow the "villain of college basketball" last year.

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 10:26 AM
And is white. Face it, nobody was calling Justise Winslow the "villain of college basketball" last year.

Well, if Allen was bad at basketball, he'd not be as hated.

fan345678
02-26-2016, 10:29 AM
Only partially joking when I say this: that would require UNC to have someone to "go physical at him". Toughness hasn't been a big part of their M.O. this year

At Duke, toughness requires hours in the lab. At UNC, it's a paper class.

kAzE
02-26-2016, 10:29 AM
Well, if Allen was bad at basketball, he'd not be as hated.

I said "and," didn't I?

tbyers11
02-26-2016, 10:39 AM
I just re-watched the play in extreme slow, stop action mode multiple times, and that's EXACTLY what it looks like - the FSU player hooked Grayson's leg and pulled it up. Watching it develop very slowly (stop action the whole way) you can see.

1) Grayson is walking towards the bench.
2) The FSU player walks into Grayson's back - absolutely no reason to do so with 4.7 seconds left on the clock.
3) Simultaneously Grayson begins leaning forward and the FSU play begins striding to move towards their basket.
4) And with Grayson's foot clearly on the floor, the FSU player hooks Grayson's calf with his foot.
5) The FSU player is breaking into a run (apparently) but has his foot hooked on Grayson's leg and goes down.
6) And then the ref goes STRAIGHT to the FSU player to talk to him.
7) The ref had a much better view of what happened from his perspective, and as far as I can tell he went directly to the source of the problem.

But not what we'll hear from ESPN.

I've watched it a few times too. Better resolution than the Zapruder film ;). Adam Rowe has a nice Vine on his twitter (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair/status/703072995099676672).

What I hadn't noticed until the umpteenth viewing is that Grayson only sticks his leg backward after XRM smacks him on top of the head. I think this is what the ref saw and why he went to talk to XRM after the play and not Grayson.

Grayson did stick his leg back on purpose and I have no problem with him standing up for himself after this specific instance and the game long crap. However, as others have noted he has to be even more cautious about chippy stuff going forward as he has a big rep for it now.

I would beyond shocked if he was suspended. Jaylen Johnson played Wednesday night for Louisville after all.

As for the game, great workman-like win by all involved. Derryck has to watch picking up his 4th foul so quickly after getting 3. Matt looked about 75%. As he himself noted, I was a little worried when he airballed that first 3, but he quickly got in the flow and did Matt things all game long. MP3 was really, really good and Chase had his best sequence of the year, except for maybe Georgetown.

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 10:41 AM
I've watched it a few times too. Better resolution than the Zapruder film ;). Adam Rowe has a nice Vine on his twitter (https://twitter.com/BlueDevilLair/status/703072995099676672).

Would I hadn't noticed until the umpteenth viewing is that Grayson only sticks his leg backward after XRM smacks him on top of the head. I think this is what the ref saw and why he went to talk to XRM after the play and not Grayson.

Grayson did stick his leg back on purpose and I have no problem with him standing up for himself after this specific instance and the game long crap. However, as others have noted he has to be even more cautious above chippy stuff going forward as he has a big rep for it now.

I would beyond shocked if he was suspended. Jaylen Johnson played Wednesday night for Louisville after all.

As for the game, great workman-like win by all involved. Derryck has to watch picking up his 4th foul so quickly after getting 3. Matt looked about 75%. As he himself noted, I was a little worried when he airballed that first 3, but he quickly got in the flow and did Matt things all game long. MP3 was really, really good and Chase had his best sequence of the year, except for maybe Georgetown.

<sarcasm> yeah but a trip is SO MUCH MORE DANGEROUS than an elbow to the face </sarcasm>

Ballboy1998
02-26-2016, 11:03 AM
I just re-watched the play in extreme slow, stop action mode multiple times, and that's EXACTLY what it looks like - the FSU player hooked Grayson's leg and pulled it up. Watching it develop very slowly (stop action the whole way) you can see.

1) Grayson is walking towards the bench.
2) The FSU player walks into Grayson's back - absolutely no reason to do so with 4.7 seconds left on the clock.
3) Simultaneously Grayson begins leaning forward and the FSU play begins striding to move towards their basket.
4) And with Grayson's foot clearly on the floor, the FSU player hooks Grayson's calf with his foot.
5) The FSU player is breaking into a run (apparently) but has his foot hooked on Grayson's leg and goes down.
6) And then the ref goes STRAIGHT to the FSU player to talk to him.
7) The ref had a much better view of what happened from his perspective, and as far as I can tell he went directly to the source of the problem.

But not what we'll hear from ESPN.

This is a much better stated version of what I tried to express a few pages back. I truly think that the FSU player unintentionally hooked feet with Allen when he tried to run and his motion actually pulled Allen's foot back.

But I fully admit that in first glance it looks bad. And the bad news for Allen is that people aren't going to interpret things charitably once you start to "get a reputation."

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 11:11 AM
Grayson clearly suffers from Restless Leg Syndrome. We need to be sympathetic to his infirmity....

All kidding aside, I am kind of like the guy in the glass house. I can't blame Grayson since I myself have done worse in the heat of competition, but he really does have to stop.

It's not going to help him and it will only hurt him and the team.... part of growing up and a not so easy lesson.

Skitzle
02-26-2016, 11:13 AM
This is a much better stated version of what I tried to express a few pages back. I truly think that the FSU player unintentionally hooked feet with Allen when he tried to run and his motion actually pulled Allen's foot back.

But I fully admit that in first glance it looks bad. And the bad news for Allen is that people aren't going to interpret things charitably once you start to "get a reputation."

Grayson takes a long stride and kicks his back foot back before there is contact with XRM's leg. It's a trip.

Link (https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/6C2603E0221314841986876231680_56cfc506355d4b25f7e4 c63.mp4?versionId=6vQ47D23H4yRZkYWZVc6KRAt4S.0RDHm )

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 11:19 AM
Grayson clearly suffers from Restless Leg Syndrome. We need to be sympathetic to his infirmity...

All kidding aside, I am kind of like the guy in the glass house. I can't blame Grayson since I myself have done worse in the heat of competition, but he really does have to stop.

It's not going to help him and it will only hurt him and the team... part of growing up and a not so easy lesson.

I think part of the venom is that stuff like elbows, shoves, etc have become commonplace enough that they don't get as vilified.

But trips are... weird. And out of place. Some consider it a ... move" to be frank.

Fair or not, it is what it is.

howardlander
02-26-2016, 11:20 AM
Grayson takes a long stride and kicks his back foot back before there is contact with XRM's leg. It's a trip.

Link (https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/6C2603E0221314841986876231680_56cfc506355d4b25f7e4 c63.mp4?versionId=6vQ47D23H4yRZkYWZVc6KRAt4S.0RDHm )

Yeah, I'm not so sure he did it deliberately. But frankly, if he did I don't care. I didn't appreciate FSU attacking our players in the last few seconds as if the game was still in doubt, there was no need for that as the game was well over. Nothing wrong will a little message now and then.

Howard

gus
02-26-2016, 11:21 AM
Grayson takes a long stride and kicks his back foot back before there is contact with XRM's leg. It's a trip.

Link (https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/6C2603E0221314841986876231680_56cfc506355d4b25f7e4 c63.mp4?versionId=6vQ47D23H4yRZkYWZVc6KRAt4S.0RDHm )

He's also not looking backwards. It's just as easy to interpret that as Allen lifting his back heel because he's moving forward. Contact is made when the ball of his foot is still solidly on the ground. Maybe he's just reacting to his foot getting tangled with XRM's? More importantly, what's that funny shadow over by the grass knoll?

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 11:26 AM
He's also not looking backwards. It's just as easy to interpret that as Allen lifting his back heel because he's moving forward. Contact is made when the ball of his foot is still solidly on the ground. Maybe he's just reacting to his foot getting tangled with XRM's? More importantly, what's that funny shadow over by the grass knoll?

He also wasn't looking at Spalding when he tripped him in L'ville/Duke part 1. He's doing it in a "sly" way that isn't really that sly in today's "everything is recorded and posted online" age.

Skitzle
02-26-2016, 11:29 AM
He's also not looking backwards. It's just as easy to interpret that as Allen lifting his back heel because he's moving forward. Contact is made when the ball of his foot is still solidly on the ground. Maybe he's just reacting to his foot getting tangled with XRM's? More importantly, what's that funny shadow over by the grass knoll?

Yea yea no grass knoll and all. But here is a screen shot. There has yet to be contact and look at Grayson's stance. It's a trip. Accept that it's a dirty play. Hope he doesn't get suspended, and hope he doesn't do anything else this stupid.

But, It's PRETTY clear he tripped XRM.

http://i.imgur.com/EHF8L50.png

Eternal Outlaw
02-26-2016, 11:33 AM
That was my thought on review of the play. I still don't understand why it's so widely presumed intentional. He may have tried to create some contact with XRM, but probably with no intent of actually tripping the guy. Grayson could not possibly have known that XRM was going to start sprinting towards the other end of the court at that exact moment. Unless, of course, Grayson is a Jedi. That would explain it.

Doesn't have to be a Jedi to know that when FSU is stealing the ball from Matt they would have guys sprinting to the other end looking for the basket. With knowing a guy is around him, would be easy to anticipate his defender would be running to their basket.

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 11:38 AM
Like most of you and the Crazies I was a bit put off by FSU's end of game tactics. It's one thing to "intentionally" foul at the end of a game with hopes of a missed FT and possession. To grab the ball handler to stop the clock is the "acceptable" way to do this. This isn't what FSU was doing.

They were basically hand checking and continue to create body contact in a way to AVOID a foul, but in an attempt to steal the ball when it is clear that;

A. The game is no longer winnable and

B. The winning team is being "gracious" in the sense that they are not attacking and trying to run out the clock

To me, this is poor sportsmanship in it's own right.

They were trapping the ball with less than 5 seconds to play in a 15 point game... really? Why? What were they looking for at that point in the game?

Then, when the ball does get loose, the kid pushes off on Grayson and it looks like he may have swatted his head (not 100% sure).... again, why? Didn't need to do either.

So, did Grayson trip the guy? Probably... did Grayson go out of his way to initiate contact in a game that was already decided... no he didn't.

Grayson needs to be on his best behavior going forward because he is going to be punked a lot I am afraid...

gus
02-26-2016, 11:38 AM
Yea yea no grass knoll and all. But here is a screen shot. There has yet to be contact and look at Grayson's stance. It's a trip. Accept that it's a dirty play. Hope he doesn't get suspended, and hope he doesn't do anything else this stupid.

But, It's PRETTY clear he tripped XRM.

http://i.imgur.com/EHF8L50.png

In this picture of Coach K with a ref from the Barry Jacobs article on the front page, it's very clear that Coach K punched the ref. And of course he's not going to get suspended.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/fAW3Md5Qksqse5rhdy-Wio1Kvys=/0x117:4712x3258/1310x873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48940187/usa-today-9138662.0.jpg

TruBlu
02-26-2016, 11:41 AM
In this picture of Coach K with a ref from the Barry Jacobs article on the front page, it's very clear that Coach K punched the ref. And of course he's not going to get suspended.


. . . and then taunted the ref by pointing with his finger, indicating the ref was going down. :rolleyes:

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 11:43 AM
. . . and then taunted the ref by pointing with his finger, indicating the ref was going down. :rolleyes:

No, no. You both have it wrong.

It's K telling Grayson:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM

tendev
02-26-2016, 11:58 AM
I think he stuck his leg out knowing the guy was there because the FSU player smacked him on top of his head before Grayson stuck his leg out. The ref knew what happened and so did the FSU player because he did not react to Grayson at all. Don't you think the FSU player would have had a more angry reaction if he thought Grayson stuck his foot out for no reason?

And so why are our players supposed to be "better than that"? Do they really have to put up with all the cheap shots they take all game and react like choir boys? I call BS on that.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-26-2016, 12:03 PM
Like most of you and the Crazies I was a bit put off by FSU's end of game tactics. It's one thing to "intentionally" foul at the end of a game with hopes of a missed FT and possession. To grab the ball handler to stop the clock is the "acceptable" way to do this. This isn't what FSU was doing.

They were basically hand checking and continue to create body contact in a way to AVOID a foul, but in an attempt to steal the ball when it is clear that;

A. The game is no longer winnable and

B. The winning team is being "gracious" in the sense that they are not attacking and trying to run out the clock

To me, this is poor sportsmanship in it's own right.

They were trapping the ball with less than 5 seconds to play in a 15 point game... really? Why? What were they looking for at that point in the game?

Then, when the ball does get loose, the kid pushes off on Grayson and it looks like he may have swatted his head (not 100% sure)... again, why? Didn't need to do either.

So, did Grayson trip the guy? Probably... did Grayson go out of his way to initiate contact in a game that was already decided... no he didn't.

Grayson needs to be on his best behavior going forward because he is going to be punked a lot I am afraid...

I suspect that if the entire situation had been reversed, we would be lambasting the FSU player for retaliating when Duke was "playing til the final horn." I have zero problem with an opponent going for a full 40 minutes regardless of the score.

uh_no
02-26-2016, 12:03 PM
And so why are our players supposed to be "better than that"? Do they really have to put up with all the cheap shots they take all game and react like choir boys? I call BS on that.

I call BS on
1) 2 wrongs make a right.
2) poor sportsmanship.
3) tripping opponents.
4) False dichotomies.

Yes I expect grayson to do better than that.
I expect coach expects grayson to do better than that.
I expect grayson expects grayson to better than that.

Getting fired up, getting angry...whatever...channel it into beating the other guys to the hoop. In my opinion, there are scant few instances when this kind of contact is warranted. Being in danger of physical harm (defending yourself) is one of them.

Maybe I do hold our players to very high standards. Shame on me for wanting our players to represent the university the same way I expect myself to represent the university.

Eternal Outlaw
02-26-2016, 12:04 PM
Just because one team calls off the dogs and wants to end the game doesn't mean they get to decide what the other team does. Are people really complaining because FSU looked to be trying hard until the end? The double team on Matt didn't look vicious or harmful so it's up the the refs to continue calling fouls as needed. If they didn't want to prolong the game, that's not FSU's fault. Duke can want the game to just be over, the refs can just want to get the game over, but if there is time on the clock and FSU wants to try hard, I find it odd they are being talked down for doing so.

killerleft
02-26-2016, 12:07 PM
If K admits we are tired and have a lot of fatigue .. Which he does... Why not sit Ingram for just a few minutes since Jeter is playing a little better now?? Up 12 points or so give Ingram a pre-commercial break seat so he gets a few minutes of rest. Do this just once or twice and it buys Ingram an extra five minutes of break time with the way commercials are now... And Jeter plays the 4/5. Do this at the 13:00 mark and 9:00 minute mark or so? Thus giving Ingram a few minutes break until the under 12 and under 8. Seems obvious if K is going to admit we are tired and fatigued. Thoughts??

My thought is that Coach K is conditioning Brandon for the upcoming nights when he is NOT coming out of the game for less than an injury. That's how important he is, and Coach K doesn't want him looking over to the bench for a breather.

RepoMan
02-26-2016, 12:11 PM
This is what I was talking about. Kilgore is a Washington Post writer. I think he is a Syracuse grad. Posts an article about Grayson's tripping propensities and suggests K is an enabler who is failing to do the right thing in order to win. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/02/26/grayson-allen-plays-dirty-will-mike-krzyzewski-put-his-foot-down/ Putting aside the obvious flaws in the article, why in the world would he post it? Because the Post caters to to Maryland fans, who still froth at the mouth when thinking about Duke. In fact, the article, comically, suggests that K should emulate Maryland and the way that Maryland handles player discipline. I kid you not.

So, the media spins a narrative because it is popular, and then it becomes reality to the masses.

gus
02-26-2016, 12:12 PM
He also wasn't looking at Spalding when he tripped him in L'ville/Duke part 1. He's doing it in a "sly" way that isn't really that sly in today's "everything is recorded and posted online" age.

huh? He was looking right at him.


https://youtu.be/oK58RsEWC-o?t=5s

NSDukeFan
02-26-2016, 12:24 PM
He also wasn't looking at Spalding when he tripped him in L'ville/Duke part 1. He's doing it in a "sly" way that isn't really that sly in today's "everything is recorded and posted online" age.


Doesn't have to be a Jedi to know that when FSU is stealing the ball from Matt they would have guys sprinting to the other end looking for the basket. With knowing a guy is around him, would be easy to anticipate his defender would be running to their basket.
I think it is safe to say that Grayson either has great court vision and spatial awareness, or is a Jedi, or both. I agree that he has to play tough to keep playing through contact like he has been absorbing instead of not going to the hoop because he is getting fouled all the time. As BillyDat said, I want him on that wall and if he trips a couple of guys in ways that are not dangerous to let others know he is not afraid and not taking crap from others, go to it and try not to get caught and be subtle about it.

In this picture of Coach K with a ref from the Barry Jacobs article on the front page, it's very clear that Coach K punched the ref. And of course he's not going to get suspended.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/fAW3Md5Qksqse5rhdy-Wio1Kvys=/0x117:4712x3258/1310x873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48940187/usa-today-9138662.0.jpg


No, no. You both have it wrong.

It's K telling Grayson:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM
I thought K had just subtly poked the ref in the eye and the ref did a huge Grayson head flail.

My thought is that Coach K is conditioning Brandon for the upcoming nights when he is NOT coming out of the game for less than an injury. That's how important he is, and Coach K doesn't want him looking over to the bench for a breather.
Brandon and Grayson have to be ready to play huge, tough minutes in the tournaments. The master is making sure they will be.

This is what I was talking about. Kilgore is a Washington Post writer. I think he is a Syracuse grad. Posts an article about Grayson's tripping propensities and suggests K is an enabler who is failing to do the right thing in order to win. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/02/26/grayson-allen-plays-dirty-will-mike-krzyzewski-put-his-foot-down/ Putting aside the obvious flaws in the article, why in the world would he post it? Because the Post caters to to Maryland fans, who still froth at the mouth when thinking about Duke. In fact, the article, comically, suggests that K should emulate Maryland and the way that Maryland handles player discipline. I kid you not.

So, the media spins a narrative because it is popular, and then it becomes reality to the masses.

Should Grayson have burned the town down, or just dropped the elbow?

gus
02-26-2016, 12:34 PM
Yea yea no grass knoll and all. But here is a screen shot. There has yet to be contact and look at Grayson's stance. It's a trip. Accept that it's a dirty play. Hope he doesn't get suspended, and hope he doesn't do anything else this stupid.

But, It's PRETTY clear he tripped XRM.

http://i.imgur.com/EHF8L50.png

You're posting a small, grainy video. To me it looks very much like XRM caught Grayson's heel as he began running. Most of what people are interpreting as Grayson intentionally tripping him happens after that initial contact and could very well be a result of their feet being tangled up. It is not clear at all that Allen intentionally tripped him. In fact, there is a ref 10 feet away, looking at the incident, who not only didn't call a foul, instead talked to XRM! Maybe Allen intentionally initiated the contact (I don't know), but it's no where near as overt or clear as so many are claiming.

luburch
02-26-2016, 12:38 PM
You're posting a small, grainy video. To me it looks very much like XRM caught Grayson's heel as he began running. Most of what people are interpreting as Grayson intentionally tripping him happens after that initial contact and could very well be a result of their feet being tangled up. It is not clear at all that Allen intentionally tripped him. In fact, there is a ref 10 feet away, looking at the incident, who not only didn't call a foul, instead talked to XRM! Maybe Allen intentionally initiated the contact (I don't know), but it's no where near as overt or clear as so many are claiming.

Come on, take off the Duke glasses. I love Grayson, he's my favorite player on this team. He meant to trip him. Moving his leg back that far is not a natural movement. The ref talked to XRM because Allen went over to help him up and he said something to Allen.

J_C_Steel
02-26-2016, 12:47 PM
I get the sensitivity around Grayson's behavior, but count me in the camp who doesn't give a flying you know what. Everyone hates us anyway. It's time to just own it.

I guarantee whomever is getting tripped had it coming. We'd be nowhere without this kid, I'll ride with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Time to circle the wagons!

Ride or die, baby, RIDE OR DIE!!!!!!!

I'm with Billy.

Grayson Allen gets fouled harder than just about any player I've seen in college basketball. He's taken elbows to the face, hip checks, forearms, and basically every other type of pseudo-legal abuse that opposing basketball players can muster. He plays a physical game and, when an opposing player crosses a line, Grayson's willing to cross it right with him. I'd prefer that he be a bit less obvious about it, but I have no problem with Grayson Allen giving as good as he takes.

RIDE OR DIE.

flyingdutchdevil
02-26-2016, 12:49 PM
Come on, take off the Duke glasses. I love Grayson, he's my favorite player on this team. He meant to trip him. Moving his leg back that far is not a natural movement. The ref talked to XRM because Allen went over to help him up and he said something to Allen.

Yeah....can't really disagree with anything said here.

My rule of thumb at DBR with regards to a Duke play is if >25% of the fan base thinks our player did something intentionally, that player did something intentionally. For any other team not named UNC, that number goes to >60%. For UNC, that number is >99%.

gus
02-26-2016, 01:03 PM
Come on, take off the Duke glasses. I love Grayson, he's my favorite player on this team. He meant to trip him. Moving his leg back that far is not a natural movement. The ref talked to XRM because Allen went over to help him up and he said something to Allen.

perhaps after their feet were already tangled. But up until the contact, Allen's movements are very natural and consistent with someone walking forward. This kind of thing happens in soccer all the time: a player will find an opportunistically misplaced leg, make contact and go flying.

unclsam1
02-26-2016, 01:05 PM
I watch a lot of NHL hockey where tripping fouls are often called. This looked like the player did a bit of acting in falling to the floor. Not excusing the foul but combined with the acting not worth a suspension.

BandAlum83
02-26-2016, 01:06 PM
In this picture of Coach K with a ref from the Barry Jacobs article on the front page, it's very clear that Coach K punched the ref. And of course he's not going to get suspended.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/fAW3Md5Qksqse5rhdy-Wio1Kvys=/0x117:4712x3258/1310x873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48940187/usa-today-9138662.0.jpg

You are whack! That's clearly a head snap by the official trying to draw the foul.

MChambers
02-26-2016, 01:10 PM
This is what I was talking about. Kilgore is a Washington Post writer. I think he is a Syracuse grad. Posts an article about Grayson's tripping propensities and suggests K is an enabler who is failing to do the right thing in order to win. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/02/26/grayson-allen-plays-dirty-will-mike-krzyzewski-put-his-foot-down/ Putting aside the obvious flaws in the article, why in the world would he post it? Because the Post caters to to Maryland fans, who still froth at the mouth when thinking about Duke. In fact, the article, comically, suggests that K should emulate Maryland and the way that Maryland handles player discipline. I kid you not.

So, the media spins a narrative because it is popular, and then it becomes reality to the masses.
Kilgore is not very good, to put it mildly. He's not good when he covers baseball, which has been his main beat the past few years. He's worse at basketball. Kilgore attacked K over the infamous Chronicle story regarding Sulaimon. Here's my post on that:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35445-The-Chronicle-article-two-sexual-assault-allegations-against-Rasheed-Sulaimon

I sent Kilgore an email last year, but he didn't have the decency to respond. I won't waste my time this year.

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 01:12 PM
Just because one team calls off the dogs and wants to end the game doesn't mean they get to decide what the other team does. Are people really complaining because FSU looked to be trying hard until the end? The double team on Matt didn't look vicious or harmful so it's up the the refs to continue calling fouls as needed. If they didn't want to prolong the game, that's not FSU's fault. Duke can want the game to just be over, the refs can just want to get the game over, but if there is time on the clock and FSU wants to try hard, I find it odd they are being talked down for doing so.

Because when you are down by 15 points with less than 5 seconds to play, there is no reason to continue to play physical ball ESPECIALLY when your opponent is no longer trying to score points.

Accept your loss, and move on, nobody is going to think less of you if you allow the winning team to dribble out the clock.

If it was a 4 point game, then it is a totally different set of circumstances.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-26-2016, 01:36 PM
Because when you are down by 15 points with less than 5 seconds to play, there is no reason to continue to play physical ball ESPECIALLY when your opponent is no longer trying to score points.

Accept your loss, and move on, nobody is going to think less of you if you allow the winning team to dribble out the clock.

If it was a 4 point game, then it is a totally different set of circumstances.

I still say that if we were down fifteen and still fighting, most folks here would praise our toughness and grit.

Far from an excuse to trip an opponent, whether you think they should still be playing hard or not.

Eternal Outlaw
02-26-2016, 01:52 PM
Because when you are down by 15 points with less than 5 seconds to play, there is no reason to continue to play physical ball ESPECIALLY when your opponent is no longer trying to score points.

Accept your loss, and move on, nobody is going to think less of you if you allow the winning team to dribble out the clock.

If it was a 4 point game, then it is a totally different set of circumstances.

Agree, no one would but why are people thinking less of them for still giving effort?

Maybe Hamilton told them to play hard to the whistle, wouldn't that be reason to do so? Think Hamilton got a recent extension, maybe this was the players just wanting to play hard to the final buzzer in support of that decision, just give an example to the admin was right to do so. Maybe they just can't stand Duke letting up for the last seconds.

Who knows, does a team need to give a reason to keep showing effort?

tbyers11
02-26-2016, 01:52 PM
I still say that if we were down fifteen and still fighting, most folks here would praise our toughness and grit.

Far from an excuse to trip an opponent, whether you think they should still be playing hard or not.

If we are still fighting down 15 with a minute left, praise the grit and toughness.

If the shot clock is off and the other team is not trying to advance the ball toward the basket, then the unwritten rule is that you ease back on the defense. IMO, it was bush league by FSU to double and try to steal the ball from Matt near half-court. Agree, however, that it is not an excuse to trip and opponent.

camion
02-26-2016, 01:58 PM
I still say that if we were down fifteen and still fighting, most folks here would praise our toughness and grit.

Far from an excuse to trip an opponent, whether you think they should still be playing hard or not.

I guess I'm not most folks. In the last 30 seconds, with the score differential greater than 10 points and the leading team not trying to score, the basketball etiquette, IMO, is to let the game end. I wouldn't be praising our toughness and grit. I would be trying to figure out the lesson the coach was trying to teach which could be simply, "Follow my instructions." If there were no clear lesson being taught I would question the coach's stragegy.

sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 02:07 PM
Best tweet regarding Allen, from Ben Swain

"Can we compromise and have Tally PD review the Grayson Allen video?"

I had to Google it: Tallahassee Police Department.

sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 02:21 PM
This is what I was talking about. Kilgore is a Washington Post writer. I think he is a Syracuse grad. Posts an article about Grayson's tripping propensities and suggests K is an enabler who is failing to do the right thing in order to win. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/02/26/grayson-allen-plays-dirty-will-mike-krzyzewski-put-his-foot-down/ Putting aside the obvious flaws in the article, why in the world would he post it? Because the Post caters to to Maryland fans, who still froth at the mouth when thinking about Duke. In fact, the article, comically, suggests that K should emulate Maryland and the way that Maryland handles player discipline. I kid you not.

So, the media spins a narrative because it is popular, and then it becomes reality to the masses.

Having lived in Washington for most of the past 50 years, I would offer the view that "when bad things occur, they are more often the result of sloth and procrastination than evil and conspiracy."

In the case of Mr. Kilgore, this is an easy story/blog to write -- it requires no research and there are only two facts (the earlier flagrant foul and last night's episode where no foul was called).

devildeac
02-26-2016, 02:23 PM
I'd love to see a "highlight" reel of all the grabs and pushes Grayson endures.

-jk

This was part of my suggestion in the Grayson Allen Trippping Poll thread.

grad_devil
02-26-2016, 02:25 PM
I was hoping to zoom in and slow down the sequence in question to see if

a) XRM and GA's legs merely got tangled
b) XRM kicked GA's foot and flopped
c) GA kicked his leg back in an intentional effort trip XRM

See what you think - I believe the important part is about 12 seconds in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFa8yr9et14

IMHO, GA lifts his left leg up and to the right to intentionally trip XRM. This occurs at 13s-15s. He even plants his right foot a little more firmly so he can push off and raise his left leg. Thoughts?

luburch
02-26-2016, 02:35 PM
I was hoping to zoom in and slow down the sequence in question to see if

a) XRM and GA's legs merely got tangled
b) XRM kicked GA's foot and flopped
c) GA kicked his leg back in an intentional effort trip XRM

See what you think - I believe the important part is about 12 seconds in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFa8yr9et14

IMHO, GA lifts his left leg up and to the right to intentionally trip XRM. This occurs at 13s-15s. He even plants his right foot a little more firmly so he can push off and raise his left leg. Thoughts?

Not sure how anyone can watch this and think that Grayson didn't trip XRM on purpose. Also, XRM didn't hit him on the head on this occasion like many are saying. He lifts his arm above Grayson, almost like a swim move, so he can run up the court.

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 02:38 PM
Agree, no one would but why are people thinking less of them for still giving effort?

Maybe Hamilton told them to play hard to the whistle, wouldn't that be reason to do so? Think Hamilton got a recent extension, maybe this was the players just wanting to play hard to the final buzzer in support of that decision, just give an example to the admin was right to do so. Maybe they just can't stand Duke letting up for the last seconds.

Who knows, does a team need to give a reason to keep showing effort?

First, I am not excusing Grayson's actions at all. He should not have done what he did, period.

However, what you call effort, I call false aggression. It was pointless. If the intent was to try to win the game, then they should have been fouling, stopping the clock and hoping for misses. They knew they could not win so they were not trying to win. What they were doing was continuing a very physical style of play past the point of it influencing the outcome. Heck, they didn't play that aggressive before the game was decided. To me it came off as a disingenuous display of toughness because we had stopped attacking. Sure they could be seen as being aggressive and physical because we were dribbling out the clock and essentially not fighting back.

Obviously the fans at the game felt the same way, hence the "Just go home" chant!

No, I am not going to praise FSU, nor would I praise Duke if we had played the last minutes of the game the way FSU did.

Matches
02-26-2016, 02:41 PM
Agree, no one would but why are people thinking less of them for still giving effort?

Maybe Hamilton told them to play hard to the whistle, wouldn't that be reason to do so? Think Hamilton got a recent extension, maybe this was the players just wanting to play hard to the final buzzer in support of that decision, just give an example to the admin was right to do so. Maybe they just can't stand Duke letting up for the last seconds.

Who knows, does a team need to give a reason to keep showing effort?

I think FSU was a little chippy because we stole the ball from them with about 15 seconds left. Our guys were still diving on the floor and playing hard right up until those last 15 seconds. FSU's players probably saw it as a "tit for tat" kind of thing but through my dark blue goggles it seemed petty.

Tripping William
02-26-2016, 02:53 PM
Not sure how anyone can watch this and think that Grayson didn't trip XRM on purpose. Also, XRM didn't hit him on the head on this occasion like many are saying. He lifts his arm above Grayson, almost like a swim move, so he can run up the court.

As someone who knows tripping from not, I agree with this. It looks to me like XRM may have grabbed/touched Grayson's left arm with his left arm, but not in any terribly meaningful way. Also, I had not noticed before, but at the end of the video clip -- the 0:39 to 0:40 mark -- isn't K yelling (while waving his arms) "Walk away!"?

As to Ferry50's question in the other thread, I'm all in favor of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoObP4h22d8), and not at all in favor of this (https://mobile.twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/703086461915111424/video/1).

FerryFor50
02-26-2016, 02:54 PM
I think FSU was a little chippy because we stole the ball from them with about 15 seconds left. Our guys were still diving on the floor and playing hard right up until those last 15 seconds. FSU's players probably saw it as a "tit for tat" kind of thing but through my dark blue goggles it seemed petty.

FSU was chippy for the last 1-2 minutes of the game.

I'm not opposed to teams playing the entire 40 min, but if FSU had played the entire game as hard as they did the final minute, they might have won.

oldnavy
02-26-2016, 02:59 PM
FSU was chippy for the last 1-2 minutes of the game.

I'm not opposed to teams playing the entire 40 min, but if FSU had played the entire game as hard as they did the final minute, they might have won.

I'm with you!

But there is no way they could apply that much pressure for very long. My guess is that the refs would have been making calls on most of that if the game wasn't in the last minutes....

Eternal Outlaw
02-26-2016, 03:25 PM
First, I am not excusing Grayson's actions at all. He should not have done what he did, period.

However, what you call effort, I call false aggression. It was pointless. If the intent was to try to win the game, then they should have been fouling, stopping the clock and hoping for misses. They knew they could not win so they were not trying to win. What they were doing was continuing a very physical style of play past the point of it influencing the outcome. Heck, they didn't play that aggressive before the game was decided. To me it came off as a disingenuous display of toughness because we had stopped attacking. Sure they could be seen as being aggressive and physical because we were dribbling out the clock and essentially not fighting back.

Obviously the fans at the game felt the same way, hence the "Just go home" chant!

No, I am not going to praise FSU, nor would I praise Duke if we had played the last minutes of the game the way FSU did.

Don't need to praise them but I don't see why anyone is acting like what they did was wrong. Others have said it might show grit and toughness but I don't agree with that either.

I agree with most of what you are saying. It was pointless, false aggression. But they were still active in trying to steal the ball so they still gave effort.

They just didn't sit around watching the clock go down, that's ok. I'm not saying I would give them more praise than just letting the game go at that point, just saying I don't think they should be looked down on.

And I felt the same way as the fans, I was thinking just go home FSU. Doesn't mean I think what they did was wrong though, just I was ready to let the clock hit 0 just like Duke and the crowd. FSU was still willing to put out some pointless, false aggression effort which I won't be down on them for. If some unwritten rule say a team should play dead, that's just stupid in my book. As long as they aren't out to injure then they can play to the buzzer. Doesn't make them better or worse to me.

Saratoga2
02-26-2016, 03:29 PM
We played an excellent game with good to very good performances from multiple players, yet somehow we devote 7 pages of repetitive posts about a perceived trip in the game. Ho Hum

flyingdutchdevil
02-26-2016, 03:35 PM
We played an excellent game with good to very good performances from multiple players, yet somehow we devote 7 pages of repetitive posts about a perceived trip in the game. Ho Hum

Agreed were really focused on this trip. But let's not call it a perceived trip. It was a trip. Plain and simple

Danke Shane
02-26-2016, 03:50 PM
My thoughts on what this thread has devolved into:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc

-jk
02-26-2016, 08:54 PM
Agreed were really focused on this trip. But let's not call it a perceived trip. It was a trip. Plain and simple

Perceived by us or not, the ACC has deemed it a trip. I hope Grayson can find it in himself to not do anything that even looks anything like a trip for the rest of the year!

-jk

jasoninchina
02-27-2016, 06:00 AM
Yeah...can't really disagree with anything said here.

My rule of thumb at DBR with regards to a Duke play is if >25% of the fan base thinks our player did something intentionally, that player did something intentionally. For any other team not named UNC, that number goes to >60%. For UNC, that number is >99%.

I am not picking on flyingdutchdevil here or anyone else. As my post's title indicates humans need to be very cautious about imputing bad intentions in others. The only ones who know WHY what happened in this supposed tripping incident are Grayson, God above, and possibly the FSU player. None of us on this message board knows what was in Grayson's heart at the time this happened. I certainly don't claim to know that. Matthew 7.1-2 states: "Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured unto you." In other words, we should be very careful about judging people unfairly, i.e. why they did what they did, when we can't possibly know another person's intentions. I know this is not a religious forum, and I am sorry if I offended anyone by using the Bible here to bolster my stance. I just want to encourage everyone here, and remind myself, to not jump to conclusions about the intentions of others because we will be judged using the same standards by which we judge others.

sagegrouse
02-27-2016, 07:55 AM
Come on, take off the Duke glasses. I love Grayson, he's my favorite player on this team. He meant to trip him. Moving his leg back that far is not a natural movement. The ref talked to XRM because Allen went over to help him up and he said something to Allen.


Yeah...can't really disagree with anything said here.

My rule of thumb at DBR with regards to a Duke play is if >25% of the fan base thinks our player did something intentionally, that player did something intentionally. For any other team not named UNC, that number goes to >60%. For UNC, that number is >99%.

Uhh... guys and gals! This wasn't a hard foul, even if called. In fact, the ref got all over Xavier Rathan-Mayes, apparently for having the total nerve of starting something with Grayson away from the ball in the last ten seconds of a game that was O-VUH!!

Henderson-on-Hansbrough was violent and bloody. Hansbrough did nothing to bring on the collision (except being a loathsome opponent for four years).

flyingdutchdevil
02-27-2016, 08:06 AM
Uhh... guys and gals! This wasn't a hard foul, even if called. In fact, the ref got all over Xavier Rathan-Mayes, apparently for having the total nerve of starting something with Grayson away from the ball in the last ten seconds of a game that was O-VUH!!

Henderson-on-Hansbrough was violent and bloody. Hansbrough did nothing to bring on the collision (except being a loathsome opponent for four years).

Intent has nothing to do with a hard foul. But it shows that the player was playing on doing a non- basketball play. Not really sure what you're getting at, Sage. No one is saying its a hard foul. But many are saying the action was done with intent.

Henderson
02-27-2016, 08:10 AM
I was hoping to zoom in and slow down the sequence in question to see if

a) XRM and GA's legs merely got tangled
b) XRM kicked GA's foot and flopped
c) GA kicked his leg back in an intentional effort trip XRM

See what you think - I believe the important part is about 12 seconds in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFa8yr9et14

IMHO, GA lifts his left leg up and to the right to intentionally trip XRM. This occurs at 13s-15s. He even plants his right foot a little more firmly so he can push off and raise his left leg. Thoughts?

That's not a trip. It's a frilly little dance move. Grayson was showing XRM that he was confident enough in his masculinity to do the move on court. It helps if you can read lips. You can see the official saying to XRM after it happened, "It was a dance move; it was a dance move." To which XRM complained, "He never lets me lead. Not one time."

slower
02-27-2016, 08:11 AM
Didn't XRM have "interactions" with at least 3 Duke players? I recall seeing him "involved" with Thornton, MP3 and Grayson.

Leonard Hamilton teams have always at least straddled the line between aggression and punkishness. SO sick of his act, and that of his players.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-27-2016, 09:29 AM
Didn't XRM have "interactions" with at least 3 Duke players? I recall seeing him "involved" with Thornton, MP3 and Grayson.

Leonard Hamilton teams have always at least straddled the line between aggression and punkishness. SO sick of his act, and that of his players.

Well here in lies the problem. Any other program in the country can do whatever they want to Duke. Taunt, yell at the bench, get in our players faces, play physical, get tough with us. They can do this because Duke is "soft" and the way to beat Duke is to play tougher and meaner. That't totally acceptable and even praised.

But wait, as soon as a Duke player gets tough back and does anything remotely outside of a basketball play Duke is Dirty, Coach K teaches his players to bully and play chippy, Duke plays too physical so the refs can't call all of the fouls, blah blah blah...

I am so sick of it, I don't even care anymore. I embrace the darkness, I accept that we are considered the villains, let the hate flow through you. Accept it as your friend, and join the Dark Side of the ball.

Everyone else can go to Hell, this is Duke basketball baby.

slower
02-27-2016, 09:36 AM
Well here in lies the problem. Any other program in the country can do whatever they want to Duke. Taunt, yell at the bench, get in our players faces, play physical, get tough with us. They can do this because Duke is "soft" and the way to beat Duke is to play tougher and meaner. That't totally acceptable and even praised.

But wait, as soon as a Duke player gets tough back and does anything remotely outside of a basketball play Duke is Dirty, Coach K teaches his players to bully and play chippy, Duke plays too physical so the refs can't call all of the fouls, blah blah blah...

I am so sick of it, I don't even care anymore. I embrace the darkness, I accept that we are considered the villains, let the hate flow through you. Accept it as your friend, and join the Dark Side of the ball.

Everyone else can go to Hell, this is Duke basketball baby.

Abso-freakin-lutely, my friend! I agree 100% It's imperative that we DO NOT EVER let teams punk us, because that HAS been the strategy. Screw the haters.

However, the fear is that Grayson absolutely will be targeted now, more than ever. And the refs will be watching him. So, in addition to NOT getting calls when he gets hammered, he may start getting called for more fouls when he's on defense and possibly more charging calls.

TruBlu
02-27-2016, 09:45 AM
Abso-freakin-lutely, my friend! I agree 100% It's imperative that we DO NOT EVER let teams punk us, because that HAS been the strategy. Screw the haters.

However, the fear is that Grayson absolutely will be targeted now, more than ever. And the refs will be watching him. So, in addition to NOT getting calls when he gets hammered, he may start getting called for more fouls when he's on defense and possibly more charging calls.

And maybe even get a technical foul called on him after complaining about a bogus charging call for his 5th foul, thus enabling him to be called for 6 fouls in one game.

Oh, wait! Didn't that already happen?

slower
02-27-2016, 09:57 AM
And maybe even get a technical foul called on him after complaining about a bogus charging call for his 5th foul, thus enabling him to be called for 6 fouls in one game.

Oh, wait! Didn't that already happen?

If he had kept complaining, might he have received another tech and therefore, SEVEN fouls?? That would have been Davidson-esque!!

Seriously, Grayson is already somewhat of a legend, isn't he? If he stays 4 years, I think we'll be telling our grandkids about him.

DukieInKansas
02-27-2016, 10:52 AM
It's all part of a plot. Now the refs will be watching him closely and he will be a choir boy. Won't that irritate everyone uncontrollably. They won't know what to do with him and will score 40. :D

rsvman
02-27-2016, 11:08 AM
My concern, and I expressed it in another thread, is that somebody might actually legitimately trip over him at some point in a game, and that if that happens, he might get ejected for doing nothing wrong. I also worry that an opposing player might intentionally "trip" over Grayson in order to get Grayson ousted.

Stranger things have happened.

duke80
02-27-2016, 11:15 AM
It's all part of a plot. Now the refs will be watching him closely and he will be a choir boy. Won't that irritate everyone uncontrollably. They won't know what to do with him and will score 40. :D

Agree, time for Grayson to put on his s... eating grin and watch the heads of haters explode.
However, what I would most like to see is the upperclassmen, yes all 3 of them, and the Crazies
rally around GA as one of their own. Show support and class with abandon. I am a Duke fan and
right now I'm extremely proud of it. I will not be shamed by hate and jealousy. Best coach, one
of the best traditions, highest level of excellence as the norm. What's not to like. Go Duke.

wavedukefan70s
02-27-2016, 11:16 AM
Well if they start watching him closely. Then by default they should see all the fouls that others are doing to him.maybe he will get a few calls.

sagegrouse
02-27-2016, 11:22 AM
My concern, and I expressed it in another thread, is that somebody might actually legitimately trip over him at some point in a game, and that if that happens, he might get ejected for doing nothing wrong. I also worry that an opposing player might intentionally "trip" over Grayson in order to get Grayson ousted.

Stranger things have happened.

"Trippin'? Man, we talkin' about trippin'? Not punching? Not smackin'? Not kneein'? Man, we talkin' about trippin'? That happened hundreds of times every day in my grade school! In line, in the lunchroom, on the playground, even in class! Man, we talkin' about trippin'?"

oldnavy
02-27-2016, 12:17 PM
Seth Greenberg is now giving Coach K advise on how to handle Grayson Allen... this is rich!

Sure Seth!!, Coach K who has won about 650 more games than you won is going to take advice from you. Coach K, a graduate of West Point, 5 time National Champion, Gold Medal winner, and the GOAT coach, really needs to listen to your advice on how to handle a "problem player".

I honestly believe that my 5 year old niece could be a better "college analyst" than some of the yahoo's they get on ESPN... Why do I let this crap make me mad???? WHY??

I'd provide the link, but I don't want to encourage clicks...

NashvilleDevil
02-27-2016, 12:24 PM
Seth Greenberg is now giving Coach K advise on how to handle Grayson Allen... this is rich!

Sure Seth!!, Coach K who has won about 650 more games than you won is going to take advice from you. Coach K, a graduate of West Point, 5 time National Champion, Gold Medal winner, and the GOAT coach, really needs to listen to your advice on how to handle a "problem player".

I honestly believe that my 5 year old niece could be a better "college analyst" than some of the yahoo's they get on ESPN... Why do I let this crap make me mad???? WHY??

I'd provide the link, but I don't want to encourage clicks...

It gets you mad for the reasons you stated.

jv001
02-27-2016, 12:29 PM
I am not picking on flyingdutchdevil here or anyone else. As my post's title indicates humans need to be very cautious about imputing bad intentions in others. The only ones who know WHY what happened in this supposed tripping incident are Grayson, God above, and possibly the FSU player. None of us on this message board knows what was in Grayson's heart at the time this happened. I certainly don't claim to know that. Matthew 7.1-2 states: "Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured unto you." In other words, we should be very careful about judging people unfairly, i.e. why they did what they did, when we can't possibly know another person's intentions. I know this is not a religious forum, and I am sorry if I offended anyone by using the Bible here to bolster my stance. I just want to encourage everyone here, and remind myself, to not jump to conclusions about the intentions of others because we will be judged using the same standards by which we judge others.

Jesus also asked the crowd who will throw the first stone. Grayson made a mistake and has been reprimanded by the ACC. It's over next play! GoDuke!

toughbuff1
02-27-2016, 12:31 PM
Seth Greenberg is now giving Coach K advise on how to handle Grayson Allen... this is rich!

Sure Seth!!, Coach K who has won about 650 more games than you won is going to take advice from you. Coach K, a graduate of West Point, 5 time National Champion, Gold Medal winner, and the GOAT coach, really needs to listen to your advice on how to handle a "problem player".

I honestly believe that my 5 year old niece could be a better "college analyst" than some of the yahoo's they get on ESPN... Why do I let this crap make me mad???? WHY??

I'd provide the link, but I don't want to encourage clicks...

Greenberg is full of crap. Did he ever suspend DeRon Washington, who did way worse things than tripping guys? Absolutely not.

jv001
02-27-2016, 12:34 PM
Greenberg is full of crap. Did he ever suspend DeRon Washington, who did way worse things than tripping guys? Absolutely not.

Greenberg is the master of getting his teams on the "bubble" and not making the NCAAT. He should just shut up, as most ESPN(Pro-uncheat) talking heads. GoDuke!

DST Fan
02-27-2016, 12:36 PM
I''m not sure that Jeff Allen's coach has much credibility on this issue.

jasoninchina
02-27-2016, 04:40 PM
Jesus also asked the crowd who will throw the first stone. Grayson made a mistake and has been reprimanded by the ACC. It's over next play! GoDuke!

I realize that it is over. I don't see how the passage you cited applies to this situation.

In any event, I hope GA will learn from this situation and behave himself much better in the future than he has on a couple occasions in the past. LGD!

jv001
02-27-2016, 05:08 PM
I realize that it is over. I don't see how the passage you cited applies to this situation.In any event, I hope GA will learn from this situation and behave himself much better in the future than he has on a couple occasions in the past. LGD!

Just saying Grayson should be forgiven for his immature actions. Jesus forgave the woman that had committed adultery and asked for those that had not sinned, to cast the first stone. I know that I've sinned in the past and I'm glad I received forgiveness from my Lord and Savior. This should probably should be on a different board, so, this is the last I'm posting on this topic. Not that I'm ashamed of my Lord and Savior but I don't want to get in trouble. GoDuke!

Ultrarunner
02-27-2016, 05:17 PM
My concern, and I expressed it in another thread, is that somebody might actually legitimately trip over him at some point in a game, and that if that happens, he might get ejected for doing nothing wrong. I also worry that an opposing player might intentionally "trip" over Grayson in order to get Grayson ousted.

Stranger things have happened.

My concern is that whistles get swallowed, and Grayson gets hurt because the defenders realized it's open season on him.

jasoninchina
02-27-2016, 05:22 PM
Just saying Grayson should be forgiven for his immature actions. Jesus forgave the woman that had committed adultery and asked for those that had not sinned, to cast the first stone. I know that I've sinned in the past and I'm glad I received forgiveness from my Lord and Savior. This should probably should be on a different board, so, this is the last I'm posting on this topic. Not that I'm ashamed of my Lord and Savior but I don't want to get in trouble. GoDuke!

I understand your citation of that passage, and I agree with every word of this post. Great job!

wavedukefan70s
02-27-2016, 05:24 PM
Greenberg is full of crap. Did he ever suspend DeRon Washington, who did way worse things than tripping guys? Absolutely not.

I saw virginia tech play charleston southern some years back.csu was out rebounding them.after a time out .all of a sudden the csu center goes down hard.
Doesnt return to the game.i believe seth called it.i have no respect for that man since then.

oldnavy
02-28-2016, 07:51 AM
My concern is that whistles get swallowed, and Grayson gets hurt because the defenders realized it's open season on him.

I don't worry about Grayson getting hurt so much as I do that he will be called for a bunch of nit picky touch fouls and that might impede his ability to play defense.

Grayson is tough enough to take care of himself, but he does need to especially careful to not do anything that could be interpreted as outside the boundaries of good sportsmanship.

If he does start getting punked on, I would hope someone like Matt Jones or Plumlee would intervene on his behalf.

Today's game is going to be interesting to watch GA and how the officials call it for him.

slower
02-28-2016, 08:07 AM
If he does start getting punked on, I would hope someone like Matt Jones or Plumlee would intervene on his behalf.


MP3 looks like he was pushed pretty close to the edge last game. And as somebody said upthread (or in a different thread), I don't think K would object to players defending themselves against repeated abuse.

devildeac
02-28-2016, 08:16 AM
I don't worry about Grayson getting hurt so much as I do that he will be called for a bunch of nit picky touch fouls and that might impede his ability to play defense.

Grayson is tough enough to take care of himself, but he does need to especially careful to not do anything that could be interpreted as outside the boundaries of good sportsmanship.

If he does start getting punked on, I would hope someone like Matt Jones or Plumlee would intervene on his behalf.

Today's game is going to be interesting to watch GA and how the officials call it for him.


MP3 looks like he was pushed pretty close to the edge last game. And as somebody said upthread (or in a different thread), I don't think K would object to players defending themselves against repeated abuse.

Call me paranoid here, but I can see (another) poorly/unevenly/inconsistently called game today with lots of touch fouls on Duke and lots of physical play uncalled by Pitt, like several Duke vs maryland/Wake/f$u games in the last 5-10 years where we had 3/4/5 players foul out. :mad:

uh_no
02-28-2016, 09:07 AM
Call me paranoid here, but I can see (another) poorly/unevenly/inconsistently called game today with lots of touch fouls on Duke and lots of physical play uncalled by Pitt, like several Duke vs maryland/Wake/f$u games in the last 5-10 years where we had 3/4/5 players foul out. :mad:

we've reached a new level when we complain about the reffing before the game even happens!

slower
02-28-2016, 09:18 AM
we've reached a new level when we complain about the reffing before the game even happens!
Hey, as they say, the key to happiness is low expectations!:p

devildeac
02-28-2016, 11:47 AM
we've reached a new level when we complain about the reffing before the game even happens!

Past history does not guarantee future performance, but, hey, wer're talking acc officials here:rolleyes:. I'll be absolutely delighted to be proven wrong this afternoon:o.

Call it anticipatory packerism or premature garyism if you'd like. ;)

DukePA
02-28-2016, 12:25 PM
Call me paranoid here, but I can see (another) poorly/unevenly/inconsistently called game today with lots of touch fouls on Duke and lots of physical play uncalled by Pitt, like several Duke vs maryland/Wake/f$u games in the last 5-10 years where we had 3/4/5 players foul out. :mad:

I hear you, DD, but our guys must adjust to this possibility and play their hearts out. Go DUKE!!!

Ultrarunner
02-28-2016, 12:33 PM
Call me paranoid here, but I can see (another) poorly/unevenly/inconsistently called game today with lots of touch fouls on Duke and lots of physical play uncalled by Pitt, like several Duke vs maryland/Wake/f$u games in the last 5-10 years where we had 3/4/5 players foul out. :mad:

I'm picturing a scene where Grayson gets hammered on a drive and ends up with a split lip.
The ref tells him he needs to leave the game to get it attended to and Grayson responds with "No blood, no foul."
The ref says, "You're bleeding."
Grayson replies, "Can't be, there wasn't a foul."
Whistle blows and Grayson gets T'd up.

I'm expecting it to be like that.
Hoping the guys play hard, play smart, and watch each other's backs.

Tom B.
02-29-2016, 04:45 PM
Greenberg is full of crap. Did he ever suspend DeRon Washington, who did way worse things than tripping guys? Absolutely not.

Greenberg did suspend Deron Washington once, which he happily trumpeted on Gameday. It actually led to a kind of funny moment, for those who were clued in enough to pick up on it.

The Gameday crew was talking about the "Garyson Allen situation," and Jay Bilas was the voice of reason -- he basically said that the ACC's decision not to suspend Allen was fine and the reaction to the incident has been over the top for something that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't really that big of a deal. Greenberg was having none of it, and went on a rant about how he had a "similar situation" with Deron Washington in a game against Duke, and he made Washington apologize and then suspended him for a game. Bilas just looked at Greenberg and said, "Yeah, what'd he do?" Greenberg stammered for a minute and said something like, "Well, he...it...it was just like this, like what Allen did..." Um...no, Seth. If you recall the game (from 2006, I think), Lee Melchionni drew a charge on Washington, and they both ended up on the floor under the basket. As Washington was getting up, he kicked Melchionni in the face -- hard -- while Melchionni was still on the floor. (You can watch the incident here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrgNEZ8VR8))

The point was mostly lost on the Gameday audience, and Seth -- buoyed by a rabid anti-Duke crowd of UVa students behind him -- just blew it off. But as between the two of them, Bilas knew he had just owned Greenberg, and Greenberg probably knew that Bilas knew it.

So yes, Greenberg did suspend Washington once -- but it was for something a good bit worse and more malicious than what Grayson did. And it's not like Greenberg went above and beyond by suspending Washington. There was little question that the ACC would've suspended Washington if Greenberg hadn't. All Greenberg did to "punish" Washington was something that everyone knew the league was already going to do. Greenberg's actions didn't cost him anything -- kind of like when Syracuse banned themselves from the post-season in a year when they weren't going to make the NCAA Tournament anyway.

The whole exchange with Bilas was a good reminder of why I couldn't stand Greenberg all those years he was coaching at Virginia Tech. He was kind of a Gary Williams-lite -- not quite as paranoid, but perpetually surly and irascible, and he definitely had a bug up his butt about Duke. And he never missed a chance to vent his spleen and rouse the mob over it. He could always get his teams up to play against Duke (and they frequently played borderline dirty ball against us, because they were almost always less talented), but then they'd mail it in against inferior teams, finish around .500 in the conference, and usually find themselves on the wrong side of the NCAA Tournament bubble -- due in no small part to Greenberg's fondness for playing laughably weak out-of-conference schedules.

Trivia factoid -- Greenberg's first head coaching gig was at Long Beach State, and he took them to the NCAA Tournament more times than he took Virginia Tech to the NCAA Tournament (he did it twice at Long Beach State, and only once at Virginia Tech).