View Full Version : Grayson Allen's NBA Prospects
Duke is in the middle of the season and Grayson is having a great season. I wanted to see what people here thought about the chances that he jumps to the NBA after the season. Duke will be one of the early national title favorites with the class coming in next year even with the losses of Ingraham and Marshall and probably Jefferson. I believe Allen has played worthy of a lottery pick and has a game that translates to the next level. Your thoughts?
blynch923
02-24-2016, 01:18 PM
Duke is in the middle of the season and Grayson is having a great season. I wanted to see what people here thought about the chances that he jumps to the NBA after the season. Duke will be one of the early national title favorites with the class coming in next year even with the losses of Ingraham and Marshall and probably Jefferson. I believe Allen has played worthy of a lottery pick and has a game that translates to the next level. Your thoughts?
I think he will strongly consider leaving. I can't imagine him having a better season next year. He's exceeded my expectations in terms of how great of an offensive player he is. With Giles and Tatum coming in its gonna take away some of his touches and he won't be relied on to carry the offensive load nearly as much which will cause his numbers to drop. Would I love to have him back? Absolutely. I think he could be a solid rotation player in the league but he has to improve driving to the basket to the left because it is so predictable that every time he gets the ball he's going to go right.
Starters w/ Allen
Thorton
Allen
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Bench
Jackson
Kennard
DeLaurier
Jeter
Starters w/o Allen
Thorton
Kennard
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Starters w/Allen and Jefferson
Thorton
Allen
Jones
Giles/Tatum
Jefferson
Starters w/Jefferson and w/o Allen
Thorton
Kennard
Tatum
Giles
Jefferson
Starters w/ Allen
Thorton
Allen
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Bench
Jackson
Kennard
DeLaurier
Jeter
Starters w/o Allen
Thorton
Kennard
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Starters w/Allen and Jefferson
Thorton
Allen
Jones
Giles/Tatum
Jefferson
Starters w/Jefferson and w/o Allen
Thorton
Kennard
Tatum
Giles
Jefferson
Thorton (http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Factory_Head_Thorton) makes his triumphant return to the Duke basketball program!
Sorry, just couldn't help it.
superdave
02-24-2016, 01:45 PM
Your thoughts?
Strong to very strong.
AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-24-2016, 01:46 PM
Right now NBADraft.net has him going 15th. That's right along the lottery pick area. I would love to see him come back but if he has a shot at the lottery hes gotta go.
BandAlum83
02-24-2016, 01:55 PM
Starters w/ Allen
Thorton
Allen
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Bench
Jackson
Kennard
DeLaurier
Jeter
His name is Derryck ThorNton
English
02-24-2016, 01:59 PM
I think he will strongly consider leaving. I can't imagine him having a better season next year. He's exceeded my expectations in terms of how great of an offensive player he is. With Giles and Tatum coming in its gonna take away some of his touches and he won't be relied on to carry the offensive load nearly as much which will cause his numbers to drop. Would I love to have him back? Absolutely. I think he could be a solid rotation player in the league but he has to improve driving to the basket to the left because it is so predictable that every time he gets the ball he's going to go right.
I obviously don't know whether he'll choose to go or not, but I do think his stock will never be higher than it will be at the conclusion of this season. For the reasons that blynch923 mentions, as well as the dearth of top quality in this year's draft vs. that of next year's draft--which is almost universally expected to be much deeper--as well as the NBA's penchant for drafting on potential/upside over college results. Grayson projects somewhere in the mid-teens-to-early-20s currently in this year's draft landscape. He's not likely to grow much nor is he likely to add inches to his vertical or to his arms. He is likely to improve as a consistent shooter and with his ball handling (especially going left), but he can certainly do that in the League.
There have been a couple of (what I consider to be compelling) articles detailing why Grayson would be best served going to the League following this season. Self-interest demands that I hope he stays to make next season's team even stronger, so I do and will be disappointed if he leaves. I would not begrudge him either choice, but at this point, there is a very strong case to be made that he should jump to the League as soon as our quest for B2B ends.
Ichabod Drain
02-24-2016, 02:01 PM
I'm sure Grayson will enter the draft this year, go through the combine, workout with a few teams, and then make his decision based on the feedback he gets.
Thankfully our incoming class is already really strong and isn't really relying on recruits trying to figure out who is staying and going.
mr. synellinden
02-24-2016, 02:02 PM
Strong to QUITE strong.
FIFY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocdq4oIjHUk). Just like my portfolio.
ChillinDuke
02-24-2016, 02:03 PM
Right now NBADraft.net has him going 15th. That's right along the lottery pick area. I would love to see him come back but if he has a shot at the lottery hes gotta go.
Yeah, I think he's gotta go. At least if he wants to maximize his chances at an NBA career.
Grayson strikes me as the quintessential college All-Everything player that just doesn't have an NBA body. He's very good at a lot of things, but not excellent at any one thing (read: at any one thing that he would do in the NBA). He clearly can't be an NBA point guard. I question his size and quickness as an NBA shooting guard, plus he'd probably have to further improve his 3-point shooting ability, which is entirely possible (he's a good shooter for sure). He's certainly too small to play SF. He has excellent hops for college, but remember how much he struggled finishing against UK's height? NBA ain't going to be easier in that department.
So, if his dream is the NBA, given the weakness in this year's draft, I think he has to go. Put it this way, I think he'd face long odds at ever seeing the lottery again.
Now, none of these are bad things. As many have pointed out around here, sometimes it's in a player's best interest to miss the lottery - or to miss getting drafted altogether. Further, I do believe it's entirely possible that Grayson could become an excellent 3-point shooter, which could be his NBA "excellent thing" (as mentioned above). I could see him being a JJ-like 2-guard with better driving ability and more speed. But to that end, he could accomplish improvement in this area both in college as well as the pros.
So, in summary, given his standout performance thus far this year, I think he has to go if he has NBA eyes. If he doesn't have NBA eyes or doesn't like the thought of potentially being a late first rounder, he has plenty that he accomplish in Durham.
My two cents.
- Chillin
I'll always be in the minority on this one, but if we do not win the national championship this year, I think there's a decent chance he will return for his junior year. SHOULD he come back to school? NBAdraft.net has him the highest of any mock draft sites I've seen. He's outside Chad Ford's top 20 (I can't see the rest because I'm not longer an insider subscriber), and he's #34 on draftexpress, which is usually regarded as the best source for NBA draft evaluations.
I think he's clearly better than #34, and should be a threat to land in the lottery when it's all said and done. Conventional wisdom at that point would be to take the money, especially considering the high-flying, all-out all-the-time nature of his game.
HOWEVAH!! (In Steven A. Smith's voice) Duke was Grayson's dream school from a young age. He's all about Duke. Given the very real possibility of being the national title favorites next year and the likely retirement of his jersey should that come to fruition, staying 1 more year will be a very appealing option. I think it will come down to what he values more: Money and short term career security, or a chance at immortality. When was the last time a college basketball player won 2 national titles? It's been 9 years since Florida won back to back. It would be a very rare opportunity, more rare than the chance to play in the NBA.
He should absolutely go pro, but there's a convincing argument to be made for staying.
Ichabod Drain
02-24-2016, 02:23 PM
I'll always be in the minority on this one, but if we do not win the national championship this year, I think there's a decent chance he will return for his junior year. SHOULD he come back to school? NBAdraft.net has him the highest of any mock draft sites I've seen. He's outside Chad Ford's top 20 (I can't see the rest because I'm not longer an insider subscriber), and he's #34 on draftexpress, which is usually regarded as the best source for NBA draft evaluations.
I think he's clearly better than #34, and should be a threat to land in the lottery when it's all said and done. Conventional wisdom at that point would be to take the money, especially considering the high-flying, all-out all-the-time nature of his game.
HOWEVAH!! (In Steven A. Smith's voice) Duke was Grayson's dream school from a young age. He's all about Duke. Given the very real possibility of being the national title favorites next year and the likely retirement of his jersey should that come to fruition, staying 1 more year will be a very appealing option. I think it will come down to what he values more: Money and short term career security, or a chance at immortality. When was the last time a college basketball player won 2 national titles? It's been 11 years since Florida won back to back. It would be a very rare opportunity, more rare than the chance to play in the NBA.
He should absolutely go pro, but there's a convincing argument to be made for staying.
He's 29 on draftexpress.
But anyways, he's not going to be going of mock draft sites. He'll be going off of what NBA teams tell him after evaluation.
He's 29 on draftexpress.
But anyways, he's not going to be going of mock draft sites. He'll be going off of what NBA teams tell him after evaluation.
He's 34. You're looking at the mock drafts, not the rankings. (http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/Top-100-Prospects/2/)
Ichabod Drain
02-24-2016, 02:34 PM
He's 34. You're looking at the mock drafts, not the rankings. (http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/Top-100-Prospects/2/)
He's 29. You're looking at the rankings, not the mock draft. (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/) ;)
All seriousness, I don't think it matters much with the new rules.
Kedsy
02-24-2016, 03:17 PM
Given the very real possibility of being the national title favorites next year and the likely retirement of his jersey should that come to fruition, staying 1 more year will be a very appealing option.
I don't know if it's likely or not, but won't he have to stay two more years to even be considered for jersey retirement? I guess if he could graduate in three years like Jason Williams, he would qualify, but he'd have to have been working on that all along, wouldn't he? I haven't heard anything that suggests he's been working on that route.
Furniture
02-24-2016, 03:19 PM
If he feels it's good for him he should definitely go. In my short experience of basketball it feels like players have to really maximize their chances when they have a good year.
You just don't know what will happen the year after.
So, if he is ranked then he should probably go for it!
I really wish him all the best.
Duke will be fine if he goes!
JNort
02-24-2016, 03:28 PM
As of right now he can't go. He is outside the lottery but a strong championship run could push him
I don't know if it's likely or not, but won't he have to stay two more years to even be considered for jersey retirement? I guess if he could graduate in three years like Jason Williams, he would qualify, but he'd have to have been working on that all along, wouldn't he? I haven't heard anything that suggests he's been working on that route.
He could always finish his degree in the NBA offseason, and I strongly suspect that he will do so if he goes pro early. Most jersey retirements don't occur right after the season anyway. My point is that his basketball accomplishments in that scenario would likely put him favorably into that discussion. Being the best player on a national championship team (IMO he would still be the alpha dog on the team next year) and a massive contributor to a 2nd championship makes a pretty strong case.
But obviously, there's still a long way to go before we even get to that point. A national championship is far from a sure thing, even with the insane amount of talent we have coming in next year. Kentucky's 2015 team is still trying to figure out how they didn't go 40-0. This is all hypothetical based on very lofty assumptions.
Kedsy
02-24-2016, 03:45 PM
He could always finish his degree in the NBA offseason, and I strongly suspect that he will do so if he goes pro early.
Has Duke ever retired the jersey of a player who did not graduate while he was at Duke?
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-24-2016, 03:52 PM
He could always finish his degree in the NBA offseason, and I strongly suspect that he will do so if he goes pro early. Most jersey retirements don't occur right after the season anyway. My point is that his basketball accomplishments in that scenario would likely put him favorably into that discussion. Being the best player on a national championship team (IMO he would still be the alpha dog on the team next year) and a massive contributor to a 2nd championship makes a pretty strong case.
But obviously, there's still a long way to go before we even get to that point. A national championship is far from a sure thing, even with the insane amount of talent we have coming in next year. Kentucky's 2015 team is still trying to figure out how they didn't go 40-0. This is all hypothetical based on very lofty assumptions.
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this suspicion on?
Has Duke ever retired the jersey of a player who did not graduate while he was at Duke?
There's no written guidelines for jersey retirement qualifications anywhere. I would assume jersey retirement is loosely based on 2 things: Personal/team basketball success and graduating, period. Why should the timing of the graduation make any difference? It just so happens that staying with the team longer translates to more success on the court as well as more time to finish a degree.
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this suspicion on?
A. Because having a degree from Duke university is an amazing accomplishment, and he would be 1 or 2 semesters from that goal if he stays 1 more year. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'd do it.
B. It's widely assumed that this is a requirement for jersey retirement, and what Duke player wouldn't want to have their jersey hanging in Cameron?
Olympic Fan
02-24-2016, 04:24 PM
FWIW, Chad Ford has Grayson at No. 24 on his Big Board. He says that some NBA teams like him a LOT, others, not so much.
I think the consensus is:
(1) He will be a first-round pick if he goes
(2) He's not likely to be a lottery pick if he goes
It's pretty much up to Grayson ... how much does he want to be a college player and play at his dream school? How quickly does he want to get to the NBA and a guaranteed million dollars plus contract?
BTW: I totally disagree with the idea that his draft stock will never been higher. No player in ACC history has upped his game more between freshman and sophomore season that Grayson (and it's not close -- his 16.6 ppg increase in scoring is the best in ACC history by almost two points a game). He can't up it again?
Agree it's a weak draft and that may influence him.
uh_no
02-24-2016, 04:35 PM
FWIW, Chad Ford has Grayson at No. 24 on his Big Board. He says that some NBA teams like him a LOT, others, not so much.
I think the consensus is:
(1) He will be a first-round pick if he goes
(2) He's not likely to be a lottery pick if he goes
It's pretty much up to Grayson ... how much does he want to be a college player and play at his dream school? How quickly does he want to get to the NBA and a guaranteed million dollars plus contract?
BTW: I totally disagree with the idea that his draft stock will never been higher. No player in ACC history has upped his game more between freshman and sophomore season that Grayson (and it's not close -- his 16.6 ppg increase in scoring is the best in ACC history by almost two points a game). He can't up it again?
Agree it's a weak draft and that may influence him.
Has he ever really spoken on the matter? I'm naive and like to think people would want to milk every bit out of Duke as possible....i mean...the UNC players do it all the time...they really must love UNC to stick around for 3-4 years!
Has he ever really spoken on the matter? I'm naive and like to think people would want to milk every bit out of Duke as possible...i mean...the UNC players do it all the time...they really must love UNC to stick around for 3-4 years!
Yeah, but at Duke you actually have to go to class, so...
blynch923
02-24-2016, 04:39 PM
I'll raise this question - lets say Grayson decides to come back next season. Do you think the offense flows through him? Last year K publicly stated the offense was going to go through Jahlil from the start of the season. It would be interesting to see if K runs the offense through Giles and Tatum and Grayson plays second fiddle.
Ichabod Drain
02-24-2016, 04:39 PM
No player in ACC history has upped his game more between freshman and sophomore season that Grayson (and it's not close -- his 16.6 ppg increase in scoring is the best in ACC history by almost two points a game).
Who is second. Just curious.
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-24-2016, 04:58 PM
There's no written guidelines for jersey retirement qualifications anywhere. I would assume jersey retirement is loosely based on 2 things: Personal/team basketball success and graduating, period. Why should the timing of the graduation make any difference? It just so happens that staying with the team longer translates to more success on the court as well as more time to finish a degree.
A. Because having a degree from Duke university is an amazing accomplishment, and he would be 1 or 2 semesters from that goal if he stays 1 more year. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'd do it.
B. It's widely assumed that this is a requirement for jersey retirement, and what Duke player wouldn't want to have their jersey hanging in Cameron?
On a thread that is built on speculation, this seems wildly speculative. You are free to say what you might or might do in his spot - perhaps having your jersey hang from the rafters would mean more to you than to Grayson - but to say that you "strongly suspect" that he would finish his degree implies some level of information.
Out of curiosity - our players who have left early in the last few seasons, are they currently working towards their degree? If they aren't, what makes you feel Grayson is different?
Sorry to derail this thread a bit, it just bothers me when people seem to project values/priorities/etc onto players who haven't indicated anything one way or the other, because it also suggests that if they choose otherwise it is somehow a disappointment. Grayson seems a good kid and he's been a "Duke" guy all the way. If he goes pro after three years and doesn't finish his degree, he's not any less of a good kid.
Has Duke ever retired the jersey of a player who did not graduate while he was at Duke?
Has any MBB player worthy of jersey retirement earned his degree after the year in which his eligibility ended?
flyingdutchdevil
02-24-2016, 05:34 PM
On a thread that is built on speculation, this seems wildly speculative. You are free to say what you might or might do in his spot - perhaps having your jersey hang from the rafters would mean more to you than to Grayson - but to say that you "strongly suspect" that he would finish his degree implies some level of information.
Out of curiosity - our players who have left early in the last few seasons, are they currently working towards their degree? If they aren't, what makes you feel Grayson is different?
Sorry to derail this thread a bit, it just bothers me when people seem to project values/priorities/etc onto players who haven't indicated anything one way or the other, because it also suggests that if they choose otherwise it is somehow a disappointment. Grayson seems a good kid and he's been a "Duke" guy all the way. If he goes pro after three years and doesn't finish his degree, he's not any less of a good kid.
I'm not in agreement with Kaze, but then again I'm not not in agreement.
Grayson is a smart dude. He is studious, and much more so than the average Duke basketball player (one of my pet peeves. Just because you play at Duke does not make you studious not overly intelligent). Proof? Well, he was on the 2015 All ACC Academic Men's Basketball Team and he did graduate high school cum laude (4.2 GPA. I have no idea what the range is). Does that make him smarter? Nope. But it sure makes it sound like he prioritized his studies. So I think Grayson will consider getting a degree, whether at Duke or in the NBA.
As for my view on his decision, I think he's gone. 1) weak draft, 2) his numbers likely won't improve next year (ppg. Efficiency hopefully will), 3) he's a mid-to-late first round pick and I always think you go if you're nearly guaranteed a first round spot.
The Gordog
02-24-2016, 05:40 PM
Duke is in the middle of the season and Grayson is having a great season. I wanted to see what people here thought about the chances that he jumps to the NBA after the season. Duke will be one of the early national title favorites with the class coming in next year even with the losses of Ingraham and Marshall and probably Jefferson. I believe Allen has played worthy of a lottery pick and has a game that translates to the next level. Your thoughts?
A lot of good points raised. Personally, I think he is a bit of a "tweener" for the NBA and would be surprised if he goes lottery. My worry is that he could go this year and just not get any playing time and eventually get cut. If he stays a couple of years and hones his 3-pt. skills to JJ levels and then goes he has a far better chance of sticking around and getting those big second and third contracts. If he goes I fear he will only get one contract and then he will be playing in Europe after that.
After JJ's Jr. year people questioned how much better he could get. If he comes back next year I predict his scoring goes to 25+PPG like JJ's Sr. year. :cool:
Doria
02-24-2016, 05:44 PM
Yeah, Grayson seems to be very academically inclined, so I, too, would assume that he will finish his degree regardless of whether he stays. I certainly don't have any inside info, but I don't think this is a wildly baseless speculation. (Re: the HS GPA, his school might have awarded points as mine did, using a +1 scale for a college-level or AP course; I always thought my high school was atypical in this regard because it was a junior college, so you actually could take college courses, but maybe not? I don't see how he'd have that GPA otherwise, though.)
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-24-2016, 05:46 PM
I'm not in agreement with Kaze, but then again I'm not not in agreement.
Grayson is a smart dude. He is studious, and much more so than the average Duke basketball player (one of my pet peeves. Just because you play at Duke does not make you studious not overly intelligent). Proof? Well, he was on the 2015 All ACC Academic Men's Basketball Team and he did graduate high school cum laude (4.2 GPA. I have no idea what the range is). Does that make him smarter? Nope. But it sure makes it sound like he prioritized his studies. So I think Grayson will consider getting a degree, whether at Duke or in the NBA.
As for my view on his decision, I think he's gone. 1) weak draft, 2) his numbers likely won't improve next year (ppg. Efficiency hopefully will), 3) he's a mid-to-late first round pick and I always think you go if you're nearly guaranteed a first round spot.
Thanks for this information. This is what I was looking for.
Go Duke!
Dukiedevil
02-24-2016, 05:47 PM
Grayson needs to develop his mid-range game in order to be successful in the NBA. His strength, first step and jumping ability are NBA ready, but teams know if he drives he's going all the way to the hoop. If he developed a mid-range game or a tear drop floater to complement the rest of his game, he would be darn near unstoppable in college and a good pro. Whether he decides to develop that skill at Duke or in the league is up to him, but my gut tells me he should go,
ChillinDuke
02-24-2016, 06:28 PM
BTW: I totally disagree with the idea that his draft stock will never been higher. No player in ACC history has upped his game more between freshman and sophomore season that Grayson (and it's not close -- his 16.6 ppg increase in scoring is the best in ACC history by almost two points a game). He can't up it again?
I agree with your overarching point but disagree on your "BTW," mainly because I don't see what support you offer. Of course, his draft stock won't "never" be higher. It could certainly go higher. But I think the odds are more likely than not that it won't. And further, I'm not sure that "upping" his game will impact his draft stock.
The list of players is long that stayed in college, generally improved, yet their draft stock fell. The reasons why are well documented. While there was a considerable amount of uncertainty last year as to the basketball player that Grayson Allen would eventually be, much of that uncertainty has now been lifted. Could he improve? Unquestionable. Could he ascend to basketball heights previously thought impossible (or highly unlikely)? Of course, he could. But neither of those hypotheticals even means that his draft stock will someday be higher than after this year.
I think Grayson is a monster. And I fear what he could still become in the college game. But should he decide to stay in school after this year, give me 1:1 odds that he will get drafted higher than his current expected value, and I'd shake your hand.
He can go higher. But it's not unreasonable to think he won't.
- Chillin
mattman91
02-24-2016, 07:09 PM
Ingraham. Sounds like an Old Testament character.
dukelifer
02-24-2016, 08:58 PM
Grayson needs to develop his mid-range game in order to be successful in the NBA. His strength, first step and jumping ability are NBA ready, but teams know if he drives he's going all the way to the hoop. If he developed a mid-range game or a tear drop floater to complement the rest of his game, he would be darn near unstoppable in college and a good pro. Whether he decides to develop that skill at Duke or in the league is up to him, but my gut tells me he should go,
Allen is an interesting case. He could improve his handle and defense. If he gets drafted - he will spend a lot of time in the D league. But he is likely a mid to late first rounder and that may be enough reason to jump.
JNort
02-24-2016, 09:04 PM
Whether he goes or not one thing is clear from this thread. The NBA should go back to the high school/ 3 years of college rule. We have missed out on more years from Tyus, Justise, Rodney and maybe Grayson and that my friends is a tragedy to college basketball in and of its self. Those guys right there all could have their jerseys retired and be all time greats had they stayed (Grayson still could I'm just going with the thread trend)
NSDukeFan
02-24-2016, 09:26 PM
...
BTW: I totally disagree with the idea that his draft stock will never been higher. No player in ACC history has upped his game more between freshman and sophomore season that Grayson (and it's not close -- his 16.6 ppg increase in scoring is the best in ACC history by almost two points a game). He can't up it again?
Agree it's a weak draft and that may influence him.
Who is second. Just curious.
I'm wildly guessing Tom Gugliotta.
Furniture
02-24-2016, 09:32 PM
Yeah, Grayson seems to be very academically inclined, so I, too, would assume that he will finish his degree regardless of whether he stays. I certainly don't have any inside info, but I don't think this is a wildly baseless speculation. (Re: the HS GPA, his school might have awarded points as mine did, using a +1 scale for a college-level or AP course; I always thought my high school was atypical in this regard because it was a junior college, so you actually could take college courses, but maybe not? I don't see how he'd have that GPA otherwise, though.)
Grayson's GPS of 4.2 is probably not that high for a Duke student. Most honors classes in HS are worth 5 for an A and AP's are 6. My daughter (who went to Duke 5th in her HS class) had a 5.1. Around 5 is probably the average for Duke.
We always seem to have these discussions every year I just can't understand how you ignore 1musd and a contract over a shirt number in the rafters.
NSDukeFan
02-24-2016, 09:37 PM
Grayson's GPS of 4.2 is probably not that high for a Duke student. Most honors classes in HS are worth 5 for an A and AP's are 6. My daughter (who went to Duke 5th in her HS class) had a 5.1. Around 5 is probably the average for Duke.
We always seem to have these discussions every year I just can't understand how you ignore 1musd and a contract over a shirt number in the rafters.
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but just the way it's stated, as I would guess there are a lot more people on this board who have or will at some point have 1 million US dollars than will have their jersey in the rafters.
FerryFor50
02-24-2016, 09:39 PM
All I know is that February of a season still very much alive for Duke, with post season hopes, is the *perfect* time to discuss whether the star player will leave early for the pros.
On a thread that is built on speculation, this seems wildly speculative. You are free to say what you might or might do in his spot - perhaps having your jersey hang from the rafters would mean more to you than to Grayson - but to say that you "strongly suspect" that he would finish his degree implies some level of information.
Out of curiosity - our players who have left early in the last few seasons, are they currently working towards their degree? If they aren't, what makes you feel Grayson is different?
Sorry to derail this thread a bit, it just bothers me when people seem to project values/priorities/etc onto players who haven't indicated anything one way or the other, because it also suggests that if they choose otherwise it is somehow a disappointment. Grayson seems a good kid and he's been a "Duke" guy all the way. If he goes pro after three years and doesn't finish his degree, he's not any less of a good kid.
Hold on here . . I ended that entire post saying "This is all based on lofty assumptions," and I never claimed to have inside info. You brought that up. That's just based on what I know about Grayson Allen: He's a good student, he's always dreamed of going to Duke, and he clearly loves playing for Duke. Why can't I make my own educated guess in a thread built on speculation, as you say? It bothers ME when harmless conjecture gets accused of being some sort of attack on someone's character . . .
By the way, Kyrie promised his dad in 2011 that he'd finish his degree at Duke in 5 years. If he kept good on that, he should be hitting up commencement sometime this year.
jacone21
02-24-2016, 10:51 PM
All I know is that February of a season still very much alive for Duke, with post season hopes, is the *perfect* time to discuss whether the star player will leave early for the pros.
Exactly! As Jed said, "I'll jump that crick when I come to it."
6006
Whether he goes or not one thing is clear from this thread. The NBA should go back to the high school/ 3 years of college rule. We have missed out on more years from Tyus, Justise, Rodney and maybe Grayson and that my friends is a tragedy to college basketball in and of its self. Those guys right there all could have their jerseys retired and be all time greats had they stayed (Grayson still could I'm just going with the thread trend)
Just to clarify, do you mean that the NBA should allow players to be drafted out of college, but if they don't go immediately they need to wait 3 years?
I love me some Tyus and hate seeing him on the bench in Minnesota but not sure if I would feel comfortable supporting a system that prohibited him from earning a salary for a few years just to entertain me. Because I know for sure that same system isn't going to give him anything if he suffers a career ending injury during those restricted years.
JPtheGame
02-25-2016, 03:07 AM
His name is Derryck ThorNton
Thank goodness, without that clarification there would be no way for this collection of fanatics who watch every second of every Duke game to identify who he was talking about.
Kaze, Im with you and im strongly on that side of the argument. I think the best way for Grayson to have a career in the NBA is to stay and continue to develop. He's a tweener and like a previous poster noted, he's got some really great skills but tends to drive one way and he is a 3 or to the rim each time he wants to score. I also think he'll struggle to guard at the next level. Pgs will exploit him with quickness, 2/3's with length.
He can certainly go, will probably get drafted between 20-30, but there's more to building an NBA career than grabbing the first check. Contracts 2 and 3 are where the real money is and for Grayson to get there, I believe his best move is to stay and grow. Playing with great players will only help that even if it means fewer shots.
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-25-2016, 04:59 AM
Hold on here . . I ended that entire post saying "This is all based on lofty assumptions," and I never claimed to have inside info. You brought that up. That's just based on what I know about Grayson Allen: He's a good student, he's always dreamed of going to Duke, and he clearly loves playing for Duke. Why can't I make my own educated guess in a thread built on speculation, as you say? It bothers ME when harmless conjecture gets accused of being some sort of attack on someone's character . . .
By the way, Kyrie promised his dad in 2011 that he'd finish his degree at Duke in 5 years. If he kept good on that, he should be hitting up commencement sometime this year.
I would like to apologize - I very poorly articulated my point. I didn't intend to attack your character.
I would love it if he stays one or two more years. I would love it if he gets his degree. By all accounts he is a good kid, a "Duke" kid, and a solid student.
If he doesn't, I don't see it as a referendum on his character, but rather a recognition of how wildly different it must be to be a college basketball player with NBA dreams than it is to be a regular member of the student body.
Again, kAzE, I do apologize. I did not intend to question your motives.
DUKIE V(A)
02-25-2016, 05:09 AM
K
Grayson's GPS of 4.2 is probably not that high for a Duke student. Most honors classes in HS are worth 5 for an A and AP's are 6. My daughter (who went to Duke 5th in her HS class) had a 5.1. Around 5 is probably the average for Duke.
We always seem to have these discussions every year I just can't understand how you ignore 1musd and a contract over a shirt number in the rafters.
In most school systems, a 4.2 GPA would be considered exceptional. For instance, in Fairfax County Public Schools (VA), students are awarded an additional point for AP classes and a half a point for honors classes. However, there are many classes required for graduation that do not have the option for either Honors or AP credit. If a student maxed out on AP classes and got all A's in Fairfax County, a GPA of about 4.5 would be the best someone could do. Fairfax County offers a ton of AP options that I suspect many school systems may not. If Grayson's school system functions on a 4.0 scale like most schools, his 4.2 is quite impressive. There are many students Fairfax County students (without Grayson's basketball acumen) that get into Duke with a 4.2 (or less), strong extracurricular activities, and strong SAT/ACT scores.
Edouble
02-25-2016, 07:41 AM
Thank goodness, without that clarification there would be no way for this collection of fanatics who watch every second of every Duke game to identify who he was talking about.
This is a battle you can't win.
From the Decorum & Posting Guidelines (Please read before posting!) sticky:
Some things that aren't infractions but are really, really irritating to the community are inattention to spelling (particularly player names), poor grammar, improper capitalization and punctuation, and texting/IM style shorthand (acronyms are fine, but if u r lazy, you'll annoy others). Fallacious, straw man, and other inadequate arguments don't hold water here. Don't be surprised if other posters call you out. And if you call someone on grammar, do it politely - and grammatically.
One of the best parts of the DBR Forums culture is that we call out posters with poor grammar, posters with rushed posts, and *ugh* posters who can't spell our player's name correctly!
Indoor66
02-25-2016, 08:16 AM
This is a battle you can't win.
From the Decorum & Posting Guidelines (Please read before posting!) sticky:
Some things that aren't infractions but are really, really irritating to the community are inattention to spelling (particularly player names), poor grammar, improper capitalization and punctuation, and texting/IM style shorthand (acronyms are fine, but if u r lazy, you'll annoy others). Fallacious, straw man, and other inadequate arguments don't hold water here. Don't be surprised if other posters call you out. And if you call someone on grammar, do it politely - and grammatically.
One of the best parts of the DBR Forums culture is that we call out posters with poor grammar, posters with rushed posts, and *ugh* posters who can't spell our player's name correctly!
I love this post and the sentiments expressed.
It is kind of like the way I was continually hammered in the Marine Corps: The big things take care of themselves, the little things will kill you. I think that is what K teaches the players; maybe we should follow the same rules.
FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 09:26 AM
Fallacious, straw man, and other inadequate arguments don't hold water here. Don't be surprised if other posters call you out. And if you call someone on grammar, do it politely - and grammatically.[/I]
One of the best parts of the DBR Forums culture is that we call out posters with poor grammar, posters with rushed posts, and *ugh* posters who can't spell our player's name correctly!
I especially like this part.
Nothing drives me crazier than someone who:
a) Calls someone out on their grammar as a crux of their argument
b) Does it with equally poor/worse grammar/spelling
"Well obviously your (sic) entire argument is invalid since your grammar sux (sic)"
DavidBenAkiva
02-25-2016, 09:32 AM
K
In most school systems, a 4.2 GPA would be considered exceptional. For instance, in Fairfax County Public Schools (VA), students are awarded an additional point for AP classes and a half a point for honors classes. However, there are many classes required for graduation that do not have the option for either Honors or AP credit. If a student maxed out on AP classes and got all A's in Fairfax County, a GPA of about 4.5 would be the best someone could do. Fairfax County offers a ton of AP options that I suspect many school systems may not. If Grayson's school system functions on a 4.0 scale like most schools, his 4.2 is quite impressive. There are many students Fairfax County students (without Grayson's basketball acumen) that get into Duke with a 4.2 (or less), strong extracurricular activities, and strong SAT/ACT scores.
Are we seriously debating Grayson's High School GPA? Why speculate when we can just look it up!
Duke Admissions does'nt specify an average GPA. I'm not sure how reputable the site is, but collegedata (http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1026) says that average unweighted GPA (on 4.0 scale) is 3.79 and weighted (1 extra point for every honors/AP/advanced class) is 4.30. Based on that, Grayson's high school GPA was in line with the entire freshman class at Duke. Not bad! There's also this nugget: Grayson was a member of the Academic All-ACC Team (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209693395) last year.
So yes, he does well in school.
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-25-2016, 10:25 AM
I especially like this part.
Nothing drives me crazier than someone who:
a) Calls someone out on their grammar as a crux of their argument
b) Does it with equally poor/worse grammar/spelling
"Well obviously your (sic) entire argument is invalid since your grammar sux (sic)"
I can't spork you for this, but yes, I agree 100%. Thankful that this is one of the things that sets our community apart; raging against the tide of poor spelling and grammar. It is a battle we are doomed to lose, but like the Spartans of old, we shall do our best to hold our post.
I would like to apologize - I very poorly articulated my point. I didn't intend to attack your character.
I would love it if he stays one or two more years. I would love it if he gets his degree. By all accounts he is a good kid, a "Duke" kid, and a solid student.
If he doesn't, I don't see it as a referendum on his character, but rather a recognition of how wildly different it must be to be a college basketball player with NBA dreams than it is to be a regular member of the student body.
Again, kAzE, I do apologize. I did not intend to question your motives.
No worries at all. I'd also like to point out that in my first actual post of substance in this thread, I said I think he SHOULD go pro after this year. I just think there's a reasonable chance that Grayson could choose to return based on what I know about him. I've always held this belief, even last year. He just seems to me like the kind of guy who might choose to stay in school longer than the typical NBA talent.
DukieInBrasil
02-25-2016, 10:47 AM
Just to clarify, do you mean that the NBA should allow players to be drafted out of college, but if they don't go immediately they need to wait 3 years?
I love me some Tyus and hate seeing him on the bench in Minnesota but not sure if I would feel comfortable supporting a system that prohibited him from earning a salary for a few years just to entertain me. Because I know for sure that same system isn't going to give him anything if he suffers a career ending injury during those restricted years.
Tyus has been playing quite a bit more lately, albeit off the bench. His production per minute is actually pretty decent. It's just that MN has 2 PGs in front of Tyus, so his ability to get PT is restricted. He absolutely is improving more in the NBA off the bench than he would have at Duke this year. Whether he can turn his modest run this year into more PT next year and a better shot at long term contracts remains to be seen.
Now for Grayson, I think his 3pt shooting is already good enough to be catching NBA eyes, i mean he's over 43% for the year. His catch-and-shoot release has gotten really fast and smooth. His FT% is fantastic, his first step is really good, his handle is good, he has (at least) decent court vision. He's got excellent hops. Basically, the things that he's not so strong at right now, ie. going left and a mid-range game, are things that can be learned. I think a lot of Grayson's eventual draft position will be determined by how well Duke does this year and the perception of how much Grayson contributed to that. I mean, that's exactly why Tyus ended up as a 1st Round pick: Duke won the championship and Tyus was seen as a, if not THE, key reason for Duke winning. Being perceived as a winner always helps draft stock.
JNort
02-25-2016, 11:16 AM
Just to clarify, do you mean that the NBA should allow players to be drafted out of college, but if they don't go immediately they need to wait 3 years?
I love me some Tyus and hate seeing him on the bench in Minnesota but not sure if I would feel comfortable supporting a system that prohibited him from earning a salary for a few years just to entertain me. Because I know for sure that same system isn't going to give him anything if he suffers a career ending injury during those restricted years.
I'm saying it needs to go back to the old way yes. The current structure hurts the schools, athletes and us the fans. It benifits only the NBA and that is of course why they have it like it is now.
FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 11:29 AM
I'm saying it needs to go back to the old way yes. The current structure hurts the schools, athletes and us the fans. It benifits only the NBA and that is of course why they have it like it is now.
But if it benefits the NBA, why on earth would they put it back the old way?
Jeffrey
02-25-2016, 11:38 AM
IMO, if Tyus should have gone, then Grayson should. I like Grayson's NBA prospects more.
luburch
02-25-2016, 11:41 AM
Tyus has been playing quite a bit more lately, albeit off the bench. His production per minute is actually pretty decent. It's just that MN has 2 PGs in front of Tyus, so his ability to get PT is restricted. He absolutely is improving more in the NBA off the bench than he would have at Duke this year. Whether he can turn his modest run this year into more PT next year and a better shot at long term contracts remains to be seen.
Now for Grayson, I think his 3pt shooting is already good enough to be catching NBA eyes, i mean he's over 43% for the year. His catch-and-shoot release has gotten really fast and smooth. His FT% is fantastic, his first step is really good, his handle is good, he has (at least) decent court vision. He's got excellent hops. Basically, the things that he's not so strong at right now, ie. going left and a mid-range game, are things that can be learned. I think a lot of Grayson's eventual draft position will be determined by how well Duke does this year and the perception of how much Grayson contributed to that. I mean, that's exactly why Tyus ended up as a 1st Round pick: Duke won the championship and Tyus was seen as a, if not THE, key reason for Duke winning. Being perceived as a winner always helps draft stock.
It's not so much his first step is that good, but it's his second and third that really make a difference.
NashvilleDevil
02-25-2016, 11:46 AM
Every year this happens. A thread pops up about a player's NBA prospects and it is always done when there is still a lot of basketball to be played. Is it possible to lock this thread until April 5th? As others have said, I have enjoyed watching Grayson in a Duke uniform this year and I will worry about Grayson leaving after Duke either repeats or is knocked out of the tournament. Focus on the now and let's not worry about his future.
Jeffrey
02-25-2016, 11:50 AM
It's not so much his first step is that good, but it's his second and third that really make a difference.
Agreed. I think Justise and Grayson have some DWade in them.
English
02-25-2016, 11:51 AM
I'm saying it needs to go back to the old way yes. The current structure hurts the schools, athletes and us the fans. It benifits only the NBA and that is of course why they have it like it is now.
Perhaps you're thinking of the MLB system, which requires that a player come directly out of HS, else stay in school for 3+ years. The NBA has never required such a 3-year plan. It's true that many players used to stay in school for 3-4 years (e.g., JWill), but it wasn't because the NBA refused to allow them into the draft.
Similarly, the NFL does have a 3-year rule, as well, although they don't allow any players directly out of HS.
luburch
02-25-2016, 11:53 AM
Agreed. I think Justise and Grayson have some DWade in them.
Always thought Grayson is very Manu Ginobili-esque. Maybe a bit better of a shooter.
Perhaps you're thinking of the MLB system, which requires that a player come directly out of HS, else stay in school for 3+ years. The NBA has never required such a 3-year plan. It's true that many players used to stay in school for 3-4 years (e.g., JWill), but it wasn't because the NBA refused to allow them into the draft.
Similarly, the NFL does have a 3-year rule, as well, although they don't allow any players directly out of HS.
I think it should work this way: If you stay in school longer than 1 year, you should have more favorable options for your rookie contract. The typical rookie contract is 2 years with a team option for a third year. So under my proposed system, maybe a player who stays two years in school gets either a player option for the third year, or just gets an entire year cut from the contract, either way, the player will be able to sign a new contract after 2 years in the league.
The goal here is to make the length of time required to get to the all-important 2nd contract the same as someone who leaves a year earlier. This way, it's not necessarily a no-brainer financial decision to leave after 1 year. You can opt to stay in school another year, continue to develop in college basketball, and still get to the 2nd NBA contract at the same age as a 1 and done.
Now of course, there's absolutely no reason the NBA would do this, as it really only helps college basketball and student athletes.
Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-25-2016, 12:01 PM
But if it benefits the NBA, why on earth would they put it back the old way?
Exactly. The NBA has zero impetus to make changes. Requiring one year out of high school means that there are fewer draft picks spent on speculative high school players who have never played against meaningful competition. Giving NBA scouts one year on a level playing field to evaluate talent (and one year for stars to build their brand) works out perfectly for them. They get established players, known talent, and names that the public already is familiar with.
Jeffrey
02-25-2016, 12:04 PM
Always thought Grayson is very Manu Ginobili-esque. Maybe a bit better of a shooter.
Agree, Hurley level intensity is something Grayson and Manu own. IMO, minus his last exit, Grayson seems to control it better.
FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 12:06 PM
Exactly. The NBA has zero impetus to make changes. Requiring one year out of high school means that there are fewer draft picks spent on speculative high school players who have never played against meaningful competition. Giving NBA scouts one year on a level playing field to evaluate talent (and one year for stars to build their brand) works out perfectly for them. They get established players, known talent, and names that the public already is familiar with.
Meanwhile, the NCAA still cashes in on free athletes.
So you essentially have the only two organizations that could enact change (outside an act of Congress) that have zero financial motivation to do so.
FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 12:07 PM
Agree, Hurley level intensity is something Grayson and Manu own. IMO, minus his last exit, Grayson seems to control it better.
Manu is a bit taller than Grayson, though.
Manu is a bit taller than Grayson, though.
There's definitely parts of Manu's game in Grayson's, but Manu was superior in pretty much everything: Size, ball handling, passing, even athleticism. Mostly his ability to handle the ball and make amazing passes set him apart. Grayson looks like he will be a good standing 3 point shooter, but we don't really know if his shot will be consistent at NBA range, so I won't make that call right now.
If you don't believe me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTgStJw9ao
Young Manu dunked on fools for a living.
Jeffrey
02-25-2016, 12:16 PM
Manu is a bit taller than Grayson, though.
True, about 2 inches, correct? OTOH, Grayson may end up being more stocky and able to power to the rim. Grayson is about DWade's height, correct?
FerryFor50
02-25-2016, 12:17 PM
There's definitely parts of Manu's game in Grayson's, but Manu was superior in pretty much everything: Size, ball handling, passing, even athleticism.
If you don't believe me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTgStJw9ao
Young Manu dunked on fools for a living.
Yea old Manu was a beast.
Current Manu is that crafty old guy playing pickup at the YMCA.
BandAlum83
02-25-2016, 12:31 PM
This is a battle you can't win.
From the Decorum & Posting Guidelines (Please read before posting!) sticky:
Some things that aren't infractions but are really, really irritating to the community are inattention to spelling (particularly player names), poor grammar, improper capitalization and punctuation, and texting/IM style shorthand (acronyms are fine, but if u r lazy, you'll annoy others). Fallacious, straw man, and other inadequate arguments don't hold water here. Don't be surprised if other posters call you out. And if you call someone on grammar, do it politely - and grammatically.
One of the best parts of the DBR Forums culture is that we call out posters with poor grammar, posters with rushed posts, and *ugh* posters who can't spell our player's name correctly!
Thank you. I wouldn't bother pointing out obvious typos, but he posted the name numerous times incorrectly every time. Obviously, he doesn't know the name of a key part of our team. He should, especially if he gets it wrong when talking to people at work.
I thought I might get a thank you. Certainly I would want to be corrected if I thought BI's name was Brendan Ingam and would thank anyone who helped me out. ;)
English
02-25-2016, 01:47 PM
Grayson looks like he will be a good standing 3 point shooter, but we don't really know if his shot will be consistent at NBA range, so I won't make that call right now.
While I haven't done the correlation research myself, it's become common practice that NBA scouts consistently measure potential NBA 3-pt shooting with college FT%, even more than college 3-pt shooting. Grayson's FT% is strong (as is his 3-pt shooting in college), which suggests that he projects well for NBA 3-pt shooting.
wilson
02-25-2016, 02:07 PM
Manu is a bit taller than Grayson, though.
True, about 2 inches, correct? OTOH, Grayson may end up being more stocky and able to power to the rim. Grayson is about DWade's height, correct?About ⅛ of a cinder block, if I'm not mistaken.
NYBri
02-25-2016, 03:02 PM
Grayson is no where NEAR ready for the NBA. He needs two years to develop into an NBA player. Yup. Two years should just about do it. AND Brandon Ingram also needs about three years. Yup. Three years should just about do it.
Grayson - two years. Brandon - three.
JPtheGame
02-25-2016, 04:14 PM
Thank you. I wouldn't bother pointing out obvious typos, but he posted the name numerous times incorrectly every time. Obviously, he doesn't know the name of a key part of our team. He should, especially if he gets it wrong when talking to people at work.
I thought I might get a thank you. Certainly I would want to be corrected if I thought BI's name was Brendan Ingam and would thank anyone who helped me out. ;)
It just irks me. No idea why and nothing personal for sure. I know the vast majority of poster do appreciate the spellcheck efforts. I personally text most of my comments and sometimes talk-to-text and it is a nightmare to have to go back and clean everything up. Its a matter of taste I suppose but with twitter and tumblr and texting, don't be surprised when people start dropping every vowel. Maybe we should make people use jersey numbers! Seriously. It proves they follow the team and it satisfies the proper identifiers and the texters.
Ill start now. I really hope 13 and 12 are in good shape tonight. Even though I expect a big bounce back from 14,and 3 always brings it, I worry about consistent production from 5 so we will need 12 and 13 just in case.
It just irks me. No idea why and nothing personal for sure. I know the vast majority of poster do appreciate the spellcheck efforts. I personally text most of my comments and sometimes talk-to-text and it is a nightmare to have to go back and clean everything up. Its a matter of taste I suppose but with twitter and tumblr and texting, don't be surprised when people start dropping every vowel. Maybe we should make people use jersey numbers! Seriously. It proves they follow the team and it satisfies the proper identifiers and the texters.
Ill start now. I really hope 13 and 12 are in good shape tonight. Even though I expect a big bounce back from 14,and 3 always brings it, I worry about consistent production from 5 so we will need 12 and 13 just in case.
My wife pretty much does this. No matter how many times I try to nail the names of the players into her head, she still refers to all of them by jersey number. 3 is indeed a beast.
NYBri
02-25-2016, 04:44 PM
My wife pretty much does this. No matter how many times I try to nail the names of the players into her head, she still refers to all of them by jersey number. 3 is indeed a beast.
Coaches do it all the time. Especially football coaches.
phaedrus
02-25-2016, 05:08 PM
It just irks me. No idea why and nothing personal for sure. I know the vast majority of poster do appreciate the spellcheck efforts. I personally text most of my comments and sometimes talk-to-text and it is a nightmare to have to go back and clean everything up. Its a matter of taste I suppose but with twitter and tumblr and texting, don't be surprised when people start dropping every vowel. Maybe we should make people use jersey numbers! Seriously. It proves they follow the team and it satisfies the proper identifiers and the texters.
Ill start now. I really hope 13 and 12 are in good shape tonight. Even though I expect a big bounce back from 14,and 3 always brings it, I worry about consistent production from 5 so we will need 12 and 13 just in case.
If either of 31, 32, or 33 comes to play tonight, we'll be in good shape.
BandAlum83
02-25-2016, 05:16 PM
It just irks me. No idea why and nothing personal for sure. I know the vast majority of poster do appreciate the spellcheck efforts. I personally text most of my comments and sometimes talk-to-text and it is a nightmare to have to go back and clean everything up. Its a matter of taste I suppose but with twitter and tumblr and texting, don't be surprised when people start dropping every vowel. Maybe we should make people use jersey numbers! Seriously. It proves they follow the team and it satisfies the proper identifiers and the texters.
Ill start now. I really hope 13 and 12 are in good shape tonight. Even though I expect a big bounce back from 14,and 3 always brings it, I worry about consistent production from 5 so we will need 12 and 13 just in case.
Precisely why I don't bother with typo's or grammar corrections. But if talk to text, just make sure you pronounce that N.
:)
And what, no smiles for Brendan Ingam???
JPtheGame
02-25-2016, 05:24 PM
If either of 31, 32, or 33 comes to play tonight, we'll be in good shape.
Love 32 but I'd settle for 22, 4, and 42 (EB not SR or LT)
devildeac
02-25-2016, 06:01 PM
My wife pretty much does this. No matter how many times I try to nail the names of the players into her head, she still refers to all of them by jersey number. 3 is indeed a beast.
Refers to them by jersey numbers? Wait, you're married to Coach P?
(ducks, covers, runs)
dukelifer
02-26-2016, 09:24 AM
Allen is being discussed on Mike and Mike as being a dirty player and suggesting he should be suspended for a game for tripping. National level discussion like this is not good for Allen. He will need to clean this up or he will gain a bad rep ( which is already out there) and at some point it will come back to bite him. This is the sort of behavior that could get a late first rounder to fall to the second. Needs to be careful from here on out. The coaching staff needs to get involved here if they haven't already.
Billy Dat
02-26-2016, 09:30 AM
Allen is being discussed on Mike and Mike as being a dirty player and suggesting he should be suspended for a game for tripping. National level discussion like this is not good for Allen. He will need to clean this up or he will gain a bad rep ( which is already out there) and at some point it will come back to bite him. This is the sort of behavior that could get a late first rounder to fall to the second. Needs to be careful from here on out. The coaching staff needs to get involved here if they haven't already.
I respectfully disagree. This kind of fire and fight is EXACTLY what NBA teams want. For a slightly undersized white 2 guard from Duke, I think it helps him. He's not Marshall Henderson flipping the bird to the crowd. Justise did all kinds of stuff like this last year and it didn't get this kind of press.
luburch
02-26-2016, 09:32 AM
Allen is being discussed on Mike and Mike as being a dirty player and suggesting he should be suspended for a game for tripping. National level discussion like this is not good for Allen. He will need to clean this up or he will gain a bad rep ( which is already out there) and at some point it will come back to bite him. This is the sort of behavior that could get a late first rounder to fall to the second. Needs to be careful from here on out. The coaching staff needs to get involved here if they haven't already.
Greenberg said something along the lines of "I like the kid, but this is a jerk move."
The ever-insightful and basketball expert Danny Kanell responded, "This is a Duke move."
sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 09:34 AM
Greenberg said something along the lines of "I like the kid, but this is a jerk move."
The ever-insightful and basketball expert Danny Kanell responded, "This is a Duke move."
Uhhh... Danny Kanell and others like you: Duke is either "a bunch of wimps who get all the calls" or "a vicious, dirty basketball team." It can't be both.
slower
02-26-2016, 09:34 AM
Allen is being discussed on Mike and Mike as being a dirty player and suggesting he should be suspended for a game for tripping. National level discussion like this is not good for Allen. He will need to clean this up or he will gain a bad rep ( which is already out there) and at some point it will come back to bite him. This is the sort of behavior that could get a late first rounder to fall to the second. Needs to be careful from here on out. The coaching staff needs to get involved here if they haven't already.
I really wish this team had an enforcer to take care of Grayson and the others, although Grayson can clearly take care of himself. Duke has long had a rep as a "soft" team and part of opponents' game plans have seemingly been to rough them up to get in their heads. Last year's team, with Justise on the prowl, didn't put up with that BS. Haters will ALWAYS hate, and this definitely gives them fuel. And it is a legitimate concern as to how Grayson (and the team as a whole) may be treated by the zebras. And, yeah, he obviously tripped Mayes intentionally. Of course, by then, somebody should have clocked Mayes in the mouth. MP3 looks like he was pushed to the brink last night. I actually wouldn't mind seeing one of our guys level an opposing moving-screener or "over-aggressive" defender. Kind of makes me wish for Dahntay Jones, although he's my least favorite Duke player ever, by a big margin.
And on a related note, I am SO sick of Leonard Hamilton's "tougher than you" glare-face and the apparent trickle-down effect it has on his players. Guys like Hamilton and Huggins and Papa John Thompson are/were just enablers. Basketball's rough enough, without turning it into a sanctioned mugging.
Henderson
02-26-2016, 09:36 AM
Refers to them by jersey numbers?
It's a NASCAR thing, and I've never understood it. If you are involved enough in an event to be describing it to the media (or as a member of the media), you should be able to handle names. If horse racing track announcers can figure it out with 8 horses running in 10 races in a day, so can the rest.
If Grayson, whatever his number is, plays at Duke next year there'll be a buzz around POY. Giles and Tatum will be playing on his team. They would be better players, and so would he, despite reduced numbers. Pro scouts aren't so stupid as to discount GA next year because his "numbers" are down. But I'm good with whatever GA decides is best for him.
AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-26-2016, 09:38 AM
Greenberg said something along the lines of "I like the kid, but this is a jerk move."
The ever-insightful and basketball expert Danny Kanell responded, "This is a Duke move."
I love how things like this only stick to Duke, it amazes me how polarizing those 4 letters are and how it can turn otherwise rational people into complete biased fools.
sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 09:44 AM
Greenberg said something along the lines of "I like the kid, but this is a jerk move."
Seth should certainly know.
luburch
02-26-2016, 09:48 AM
Seth should certainly know.
Mike Greenberg, not Seth.
sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 10:00 AM
Mike Greenberg, not Seth.
Sorry. But Mike should know too.
dukelifer
02-26-2016, 10:02 AM
I respectfully disagree. This kind of fire and fight is EXACTLY what NBA teams want. For a slightly undersized white 2 guard from Duke, I think it helps him. He's not Marshall Henderson flipping the bird to the crowd. Justise did all kinds of stuff like this last year and it didn't get this kind of press.
I have no trouble with Grayson showing his emotion or standing up for himself- which he can do- but tripping like this is viewed as dirty and potentially dangerous. You are right the Justise did this and it did not get the press. But Allen is getting press- whether he likes it or not - and so he should find another way to show his toughness.
Billy Dat
02-26-2016, 10:05 AM
I have no trouble with Grayson showing his emotion or standing up for himself- which he can do- but tripping like this is viewed as dirty and potentially dangerous. You are right the Justise did this and it did not get the press. But Allen is getting press- whether he likes it or not - and so he should find another way to show his toughness.
Perhaps, but your point was about it hurting his NBA draft prospects and I still contend that the GMs may not say it publicly, but it is a plus not a minus in their eyes. You can't teach fight and toughness and they see plenty of kids gobs of talent and neither of the aforementioned attributes. He has it all, save for ideal height.
nmduke2001
02-26-2016, 10:05 AM
I have no trouble with Grayson showing his emotion or standing up for himself- which he can do- but tripping like this is viewed as dirty and potentially dangerous. You are right the Justise did this and it did not get the press. But Allen is getting press- whether he likes it or not - and so he should find another way to show his toughness.
With all of the press this is getting, I wonder if Grayson will face some sort of suspension.
With all of the press this is getting, I wonder if Grayson will face some sort of suspension.
The league didn't suspend Winslow last year (even after his second incident), so I'd be surprised if they suspend Allen now.
In a similar respect, Winslow's incidents didn't hurt his stock, and I doubt Allen's will hurt Allen's stock either.
moonpie23
02-26-2016, 10:11 AM
it was a topic on Mike and Mike this morning......didn't get to hear jwill weigh in, but generally, they thought he didn't deserve a suspension, but that K should step in and do something....
Greenberg said something along the lines of "I like the kid, but this is a jerk move."
The ever-insightful and basketball expert Danny Kanell responded, "This is a Duke move."
Ugh . . I HATE Danny Kannell. I used to listen to SVP and Russillo every day and ever since it became Russillo and Kannell, I just can't do it. Russillo is great, one of my favorites, but I'm not sure if there's ever been a more pompous and obnoxious sports talk radio host on ESPN than Kannell. He has to be up there.
NashvilleDevil
02-26-2016, 10:15 AM
I think this blows over once the NFL draft prospects begin doing drills at the combine later today.
Someone high up at ESPN must really hate Grayson, or is a UNC/UK alum. The level of coverage they are giving this and the "Grayson Allen is the villain of college basketball" narrative is absolutely staggering. It's embarrassing for them. I almost feel bad for some the writers and talk show hosts that are being assigned to cover this.
NashvilleDevil
02-26-2016, 10:25 AM
Someone high up at ESPN must really hate Grayson, or is a UNC/UK alum. The level of coverage they are giving this and the "Grayson Allen is the villain of college basketball" narrative is absolutely staggering. It's embarrassing for them. I almost feel bad for some the writers and talk show hosts that are being assigned to cover this.
Someone like John Skipper, ESPN's President, who is a UNC grad.
uh_no
02-26-2016, 10:40 AM
it was a topic on Mike and Mike this morning...didn't get to hear jwill weigh in, but generally, they thought he didn't deserve a suspension, but that K should step in and do something...
K has already indicated that this kind of thing is an issue after the T. Saying that while he understands why Grayson has the type of outbursts he does, he needs to work on channeling them appropriately at times.
Matches
02-26-2016, 10:43 AM
I'll be surprised if he doesn't get suspended. Yea it's being driven to some extent by the media and ESPN specifically but a suspension probably is warranted.
Channing
02-26-2016, 10:52 AM
I'll be surprised if he doesn't get suspended. Yea it's being driven to some extent by the media and ESPN specifically but a suspension probably is warranted.
really? A suspension is warranted for an in game play by a player who was a participant in the game? How often do you see guys get suspended after committing an intentional foul after guys get tied up? He may get suspended because of the media frenzy, but I think its a stretch to say he deserves one.
Matches
02-26-2016, 10:54 AM
really? A suspension is warranted for an in game play by a player who was a participant in the game? How often do you see guys get suspended after committing an intentional foul after guys get tied up? He may get suspended because of the media frenzy, but I think its a stretch to say he deserves one.
I'll refer you to the case of Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge, 2005. And that was a first offense - Grayson's a repeat offender.
I'll refer you to the case of Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge, 2005. And that was a first offense - Grayson's a repeat offender.
Just to refresh your memory, here's Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge:
https://youtu.be/cfKEBENB7tk?t=50s
I submit that this is a tiny little bit different than Grayson Allen picking up his heel 1/2 an inch as a player starts running behind him.
Just to refresh your memory, here's Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge:
https://youtu.be/cfKEBENB7tk?t=50s
I submit that this is a tiny little bit different than Grayson Allen picking up his heel 1/2 an inch as a player starts running behind him.
I think you are absolutely understating what Allen did, but I totally agree that the Paul/Hodge thing was on an entirely different level.
jipops
02-26-2016, 01:25 PM
I'll refer you to the case of Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge, 2005. And that was a first offense - Grayson's a repeat offender.
And so is Paul, link (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/run-the-jewels-the-best-nut-punches-of-the-nba-season/).
devildeac
02-26-2016, 01:54 PM
it was a topic on Mike and Mike this morning...didn't get to hear jwill weigh in, but generally, they thought he didn't deserve a suspension, but that K should step in and do something...
I think K and the Duke SID should put together a tape showing several dozen examples of Grayson being held, tripped, grabbed, hacked and pushed to demonstrate the amount of abuse he takes and have that played during a presser and/or "windbag" TV show, and then point out how he is infrequently rewarded for these repeated non-calls, despite the new emphasis/rules on FoM as they sit him down privately and show him a "Grayson tape" much as they showed the "Hurley tape" and give him suggestions how to "tone down" his actions a bit.
sagegrouse
02-26-2016, 01:59 PM
I'll refer you to the case of Chris Paul vs. Julius Hodge, 2005. And that was a first offense - Grayson's a repeat offender.
Hly Kee-reist!! You are comparing last night's "nudge" by Grayson in retaliation for getting a hard bum from Rathan-Mayes to the Chris Paul episode??? Paul blasted Hodge in his private parts. No comparison whatsoever.
Matches
02-26-2016, 02:36 PM
Hly Kee-reist!! You are comparing last night's "nudge" by Grayson in retaliation for getting a hard bum from Rathan-Mayes to the Chris Paul episode??? Paul blasted Hodge in his private parts. No comparison whatsoever.
The post to which I was responding questioned whether players can or should be suspended for in-game actions as participants. The Paul/ Hodge example is one of many cases where that has been done. Henderson/ Hanstravel would be another. It's not a question of severity (though I'd characterize what Grayson did last night as more than a "nudge").
The post to which I was responding questioned whether players can or should be suspended for in-game actions as participants. The Paul/ Hodge example is one of many cases where that has been done. Henderson/ Hanstravel would be another. It's not a question of severity (though I'd characterize what Grayson did last night as more than a "nudge").
Sorry. Henderson BROKE HANSBROUGH's NOSE. Also, he was ejected. So no, you're way off mark again.
http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/03/05/hansbroughx.jpg
Matches
02-26-2016, 02:45 PM
Sorry. Henderson BROKE HANSBROUGH's NOSE. Also, he was ejected. So no, you're way off mark again.
I was on these boards then and we had a lengthy, spirited debate about whether that was intentional. And to this day I'd argue that Henderson's intent was more questionable than Grayson's was last night.
I was on these boards then and we had a lengthy, spirited debate about whether that was intentional. And to this day I'd argue that Henderson's intent was more questionable than Grayson's was last night.
I agreed then, and do now. It still doesn't change the facts that the incident is worse than this one, and Henderson was ejected.
Did Grayson pick up his heel? yes. But the flailing trip part of it looks a lot like this:
https://youtu.be/9ukFUEI5qz8?t=20s
Matches
02-26-2016, 02:54 PM
I agreed then, and do now. It still doesn't change the facts that the incident is worse than this one, and Henderson was ejected.
OK? I mean, I won't argue with any of that. But the ACC can and does suspend players for stuff that happens in-game. We can debate whether this rose to that level. I think it probably does, based in part on the fact that it happened before, and recently. YMMV - but I know most here (myself included) take a lot of exception to behavior that is or appears to be "dirty" when we see it directed against our guys, and tripping people absolutely is. (Not implying that you are condoning tripping or dirty play, I don't think that at all. I'm just saying that if Grayson had been the trip-ee instead of the tripper, I'd want to see something done about it.)
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but just the way it's stated, as I would guess there are a lot more people on this board who have or will at some point have 1 million US dollars than will have their jersey in the rafters.
But not many who would trade it.
SCMatt33
02-26-2016, 04:23 PM
Given that this is a thread relating to Grayson's NBA prospects, I think that all this tripping stuff is a clear indicator that Grayson is way too immature to enter the league at this time, and will just have to settle for two more years at Duke. 😋
NM Duke Fan
02-26-2016, 08:28 PM
Along the lines of the original topic, CBS has a mock draft today which places hiim at number 21:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25496581/nba-mock-draft-lsus-ben-simmons-dukes-brandon-ingram-go-1-2
lotusland
02-26-2016, 09:11 PM
Gerald had had a pretty long nba career but Nolan - not so much. JJ stuck but not Daniel Ewing or Demarcus Nelson or Tradgon Langdon. Seems like a crap shoot. Why not use your eligibility and get a Duke degree before you roll the dice? Maybe you get a assistant coaching gig at Duke if it doesn't work out in the league.
moonpie23
02-26-2016, 09:24 PM
Sorry. Henderson BROKE HANSBROUGH's NOSE. Also, he was ejected. So no, you're way off mark again.
http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/03/05/hansbroughx.jpg
clean block....all ball......hanstravel hit his nose on the floor....
JNort
02-27-2016, 04:51 AM
I was on these boards then and we had a lengthy, spirited debate about whether that was intentional. And to this day I'd argue that Henderson's intent was more questionable than Grayson's was last night.
Not to derail this thread but Henderson admitted live in an interview that he was trying to hit Hansbrough it was just more forceful than he meant
jmck214
02-27-2016, 07:37 AM
I think you are absolutely understating what Allen did, but I totally agree that the Paul/Hodge thing was on an entirely different level.
Not that it makes it ok but a little back story to the Paul/Hodge incident. The NC State crowd was chanting "I killed your grandfather" at Paul whose grandfather was beaten to death. Again not an excuse but that may be enough for most people to snap
Steven43
02-27-2016, 10:57 AM
It would be interesting to see if K runs the offense through Giles and Tatum and Grayson plays second fiddle.
What will be much more interesting to me is how well Giles recovers health-wise by the beginning of the season, and how well he is actually able to play after his second major knee surgery and rehab in just the past few years. THAT is the big unanswered question.
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