MBB: Duke 64, Louisville 71 Post-game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Selover]

Bof.

[Lulu]

Is there anything to talk about except Duke's guts and horrible, horrible officiating?

Every now and then there's a game where officiating IS the story. Sorry, but that's my only thought on this one. I'd be slightly relieved to learn Ingram was under the weather I suppose.

[TKG]

Proud of our guys. End of a tough 4-game stretch. Playing short-handed. Had to be running on fumes. Our boys played with grit. Wish BI had shown up.

[NashvilleDevil]

Welcome back Big East basketball. After watching Johnson stay in the game after throwing punches and Lee getting right in Grayson's face repeatedly, I'm not upset that Louisville will be missing tournament play.

[Wander]

Pitino is a thug and a bad person.

Grayson Allen somehow got 6 fouls.

Our kids are awesome.

That's about it.

[Atldukie79]

Is there anything to talk about except Duke's guts and horrible, horrible officiating?
Oh, I suppose we could talk about the elbow to Grayson's face followed by the Ali shuffle from # 10 (I won't use his name).

Gutty performance by Duke. The last 10 minutes reflect a gassed team. Ingram will need more stamina for back to backs in the NBA!

The charge on Allen was awful.

[SCMatt33]

So even Doug Gottlieb thinks we got screwed by the refs. Must be pretty bad. That being said, refereeing is a very inexact science. It so hard to make those calls at game speed and when you make thousands of calls a year, several will be bad. We get calls that help us and calls that hurt us and over the years, it probably evens out to what it should be. That's not the same as 50/50 because better teams don't foul as much and generally draw more due to talent disparity, so Duke having good teams all the time will naturally lead to them getting fouled more than we get fouled. Today didn't go our way, but I hope we can keep in mind that just as when we get the calls, no one is trying to call the game one way or the other. They're professionals and unless we're talking Tim Donaghy, they conduct themselves in their best professional judgment, even if it's wrong at times

[gurufrisbee]

Never expected to win a road game against a top 20 team with two starters out, so very proud of this team that they came and fought hard and kept it close the entire time.

Those officials were beyond horrible. I remember two years ago (almost to the day, I think), when we last lost to NC the officials were absolutely disgusting and terrible. These were worse. It's unreal to see them call one team for fouls where nothing happened ALL game while the other team can be thugs and abuse the other team without calls ALL game. That crew should be fired and banned.

It's a terrible day to be a Louisville recruit, because clearly all the ladies have been promised tonight for the refs - and the refs earned them.

[tbyers11]

Great fight by the Devils. Louisville pressure wore us down which got them back in the game.

While Louisville got back in the game the refs made sure they didn't lose. The 4th and 5th fouls on Grayson were abominable. I can't blame him for losing his cool. Awful, awful calls.

That being said, if Derrick hadn't gotten hurt and left for 5 minutes we still might have won. His handling of the press was great and when we were forced to go zone with Jeter in the defense went in the tank

Great fight by the team today. Grayson was sublime. Ingram, well he gets a mulligan once in awhile.

Matt looks like he'll be back TH. That will help. If Amile gets back I really, really like where this team can go

[Ballboy1998]

Even with all the bad officiating, I feel like the stretch that really did us in was when Thornton had to go out with the injury. We made a bit of a run when he came back, but that was without Grayson and frankly too late. I am 100% comfortable with Thornton at the helm now.

[kmspeaks]

Sometime in the 2nd half I went from hoping we could gut out another win with a ridiculously short bench to hoping nobody gets injured in this football game with a little bit of dribbling we have going on. Win or loss that game was not fun to watch and that's bad for college basketball. Get in your ice baths boys and rest up. Next Play.

[devildeac]

Send them, their thug ball and the 3 POS stripes back to the big east. Horrendous.

So proud of the fight in our team.

[FerryFor50]

Duke fought hard, but you can't win a fight where only one side is allowed to punch.

[Troublemaker]

Proud of our guys. Put together a great performance in the face of adversity, and we very likely win if Derryck doesn't get injured; that was the straw that finally broke us and allowed Louisville to take control. I'm actually somewhat relieved more than angry right now because to my untrained eye, Derryck's injury looked nasty. Glad to see that he's apparently okay.

[devildeac]

Duke fought hard, but you can't win a fight where only one side is allowed to punch.

Or elbow.

[Ballboy1998]

Duke fought hard, but you can't win a fight where only one side is allowed to punch.

In this case, very literally so.

[wsb3]

Could not be prouder of this DUKE team. Obviously tired, short handed, & if Thornton does not go out for several minutes I think we are right there to the last possession.

When we were 4-4 in the conference & looking ahead at the schedule over the next six games. I think any of us would have said at that time that 9-5 would be great& throw in a win over the Cheats..Pretty good stretch.

Let's hope Thornton is going to be 100% going forward. I was so relieved to see him back on the court going forward. Maybe get Matt back next week & if we get Amile at some point this season I like our chances come March.

What a gritty team.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Proud of the effort the team gave

Video of the elbow if didn't see it, you can also see after the elbow the right arm go by again with a closed fist (about 26-27 seconds in). Somehow a guy who elbowed and tried to punch a player is allowed to stay in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkaw9Hw0UA

[tbyers11]

So even Doug Gottlieb thinks we got screwed by the refs. Must be pretty bad. That being said, refereeing is a very inexact science. It so hard to make those calls at game speed and when you make thousands of calls a year, several will be bad.

Normally I agree about the refs. Louisville straddles the line of a foul every time you inbound the ball and forces the refs to call it or not. Hard to officiate.

But the 4th and 5th fouls on Grayson were beyond awful. Adel jumps into him and flops backward after we inbounded the ball. The charge wasn't even close. The UL player had to lean and even shuffle a bit to his left to make contact with Grayson as he jumped away from him. Ridiculous calls

[TKG]

K with a perfunctory handshake with Pitino. Was much more cordial with Louisville players.

[indy1duke]

Simply unbelievable! There have been so many bad calls t.hat I don't know where to start.

[dalmatians98]

It was a physical game and it seemed at a couple of points that the officials were on the verge of losing control of the game. I don't want to whine about getting jobbed by the officials, though. It is what it is as we say out in the lineup.

Louisville did a good job of shutting down a fatigued Ingram in the second half. The magic just didn't happen today. But I love this young team. They'll bounce back. Next.

[CoachJ10]

Not only did Lee travel pretty much everytime he touched the ball, his constant fouling of Grayson was not only discouraged by the refs,but encouraged. That guy has fast become one of the dirtiest players in the conference. It is no wonder that Grayson was bubbling over...he had been mauled for 35 minutes.

[Kjeffrey]

Proud of the effort the team gave

Video of the elbow if didn't see it, you can also see after the elbow the right arm go by again with a closed fist (about 26-27 seconds in). Somehow a guy who elbowed and tried to punch a player is allowed to stay in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkaw9Hw0UA

People were outraged Grayson Allen was not ejected after his intentional trip in the Virginia game. Who thinks there will even be a mention of the Louisville player staying in the game after giving G an elbow to the head?

[KandG]

Winnable game, but clearly we ran on fumes the last 10 minutes or so. Thought the game was in our grasp all the way until Thornton got hurt, but I thought there was a turning point earlier in the second half when Kennard got his fourth foul. The defense got more tentative after that, and Brandon's exhaustion finally caught up with him...he just kept trying to drive into traffic and force plays to his detriment, and he really had a hard time reading the press when inbounding.

I generally don't like to comment on officials but it looked pretty clear to me that Louisville was allowed to be more physical than we were, and Grayson's last two fouls were very cheap. He still shouldn't have lost his head and got the technical, but I can't say I would have been the better person in that situation.

Loved the fight of the team, and before this stretch I had bad thoughts that winning only one game was a possibility, if not losing all four. Proud of them and hope this is a learning experience for Brandon in learning how to deal with physicality and playing tired.

[Doria]

Unbelievable that Johnson was still in the game, but regardless, fouling out on a technical was stupid for Grayson. He is absolutely right to be mad at the charge, but he has to realize that he's the most important player for us; and he really hurt any chance we had of winning that game.

Brandon had a terrible game. He's understandably exhausted, but the rest of his teammates are, too. Even if the shots aren't falling, you have to keep contributing and turnovers aren't "contribution." I know he was frustrated by getting mugged and being too tired to fight through it, but you can't rely on the refs. Need to keep your head in the game, and I have no doubt he will learn from this game.

Thornton had a great game and was especially at the end of the game. I've said it before, but I love seeing him wanting the ball in the big moments. As he and his shot mature that will be a huge asset for us.

Chase had a super game, too. I don't think we could've asked more from him. The coaches have to be pleased with his contributions.

There were horrible calls and no calls, but especially as tourney time gets closer, we've got to be able to deal with that adversity. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to, but in this one, you've got to adapt and find a way to overcome.

Probably a good learning experience for our youngsters, though not a very fun one. At least this mitigates my fear that they'd sleep on next week's games. And I was also encouraged to see Matt looking pretty good before the game. On to the next one!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Unbelievable that Johnson was still in the game, but regardless, fouling out on a technical was stupid for Grayson. He is absolutely right to be mad at the charge, but he has to realize that he's the most important player for us; and he really hurt any chance we had of winning that game.

Brandon had a terrible game. He's understandably exhausted, but the rest of his teammates are, too. Even if the shots aren't falling, you have to keep contributing and turnovers aren't "contribution." I know he was frustrated by getting mugged and being too tired to fight through it, but you can't rely on the refs. Need to keep your head in the game, and I have no doubt he will learn from this game.

Thornton had a great game and was especially at the end of the game. I've said it before, but I love seeing him wanting the ball in the big moments. As he and his shot mature that will be a huge asset for us.

Chase had a super game, too. I don't think we could've asked more from him. The coaches have to be pleased with his contributions.

There were horrible calls and no calls, but especially as tourney time gets closer, we've got to be able to deal with that adversity. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to, but in this one, you've got to adapt and find a way to overcome.

Probably a good learning experience for our youngsters, though not a very fun one. At least this mitigates my fear that they'd sleep on next week's games. And I was also encouraged to see Matt looking pretty good before the game. On to the next one!
The charge was his 5th foul.

[FerryFor50]

The worst part of the officiating was how much ACTUAL physical play they were allowing (stuff that affects play) but then would follow up with a weak reach in, bump call, etc that didn't affect anything. I'd much rather they take control of the game by saying early "hey, you can't ride a player jumping in the air all the way till they land just because you like to press" or "you can't grab and claw off the ball to prevent the inbound play" than watching them swallow the whistle until something minor happens.

And then calling offensive fouls later on players *responding* to that physical play, because they only way they can break loose from the contact is with contact.

Or by condoning players throwing elbows and then getting up like they're about to go 12 rounds, while shoving officials, by not ejecting them from the game. Basically, you've said "yea, an intentional elbow is just as serious as an F bomb."

Figures that the guy who should have been ejected ended up burning Duke for 6 points, 3 boards and hitting 2 FTs (as a 50% FT shooter).

That said, Duke was within striking distance down the stretch and could have pulled it out. And it would have been just as sweet as the UNC game, given how classless L'ville was this game.

I don't feel bad at all for Damion Lee missing out on the postseason after all his woofing, getting in players' faces after hitting shots, etc. Good riddance. Enjoy your last season of meaningless basketball.

[Kalaby]

Tired team + Horrible officiating = an understandable loss.

Didn't think I'd be saying this earlier in the year, but if they have a chance to go pretty deep in the tournament if they can get completely healthy in the next couple of weeks.

[Coballs]

Undermanned, exhausted, and up against a pressing and physical team, it would have been remarkable if they had gutted a W out. Forget about this one because there's nothing to worry about here. Duke was the better team before fatigue, injuries, foul trouble and awful officiating caught up with them. The team needs a little rest and healing time over the next 5 days. This was a one-off for Ingram. Fortunately, it looks like Thornton and Jones will be on the course against FSU.

[uh_no]

Simply unbelievable! There have been so many bad calls t.hat I don't know where to start.

maybe start by looking at the 9 minutes we went without a field goal in the second half.

maybe the officiating was bad....but that didn't cause our offense to fall off a cliff. derryck or no...you can't go through stretches like that and expect to win.

[FerryFor50]

Normally I agree about the refs. Louisville straddles the line of a foul every time you inbound the ball and forces the refs to call it or not. Hard to officiate.

But the 4th and 5th fouls on Grayson were beyond awful. Adel jumps into him and flops backward after we inbounded the ball. The charge wasn't even close. The UL player had to lean and even shuffle a bit to his left to make contact with Grayson as he jumped away from him. Ridiculous calls

The guy who drew that "charge" was the same guy who elbowed Allen in the face.

[devildeac]

Proud of the effort the team gave

Video of the elbow if didn't see it, you can also see after the elbow the right arm go by again with a closed fist (about 26-27 seconds in). Somehow a guy who elbowed and tried to punch a player is allowed to stay in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkaw9Hw0UA

They looked like classic rule book definitions of F2 fouls which call for ejection I think but they took the gutless way out and game seemed to change around that point and after DT exited after he was assaulted.

[Saratoga2]

Hard to like what happened on the floor. Duke players showed they could have and should have won but the refs decided to allow all the pushing, bumping, grabbing and hacking used against us on the press while being sticklers for minor touch fouls, particularly on Kennard. We win the game if allowed to play basketball. What was being played in the second half more like rugby.

Thornton played great as did Allen. Marshall was very good to great with rebounding and Luke showed his value by what happened when he left the game after his fourth touch foul. Chase did better than he has in the past while Brandon just couldn't handle the mugging he got constantly. Again, not basketball with basketball rules being played.

Lets hope that Thornton doesn't have any long term damage as he handles the ball so well for us. We need to get Matt and Amile back.

On another note, Dickie Vitale is hard to stomach. He was coaching Louisville on how to get Kennard fouled out, etc. What in the heck is a color announcer doing with that kind of inappropriate comment. And by the way, Louisville had serious and major violations and should have received strong penalties. Why is Dickie V saying not to penalize the program other than a financial penalty against the institution. The kind of gutter ethics at Louisville needs to be penalized harshly so it doesn't get repeated. The kids, like the Penn State Football case, are caught up in the sins of others but how else do you penalize for this kind of thing without taking a several year ban on post season.

[Bob Green]

A tough loss for sure but let's not twerp about the officiating too much or visitors will think they stumbled across Inside Carolina. Next play!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Proud doesn't begin to express how I feel about our team today. For 30 minutes, we were the best team on the court by far. Grayson Allen? WOW! Just WOW! Got to be unanimous MOTM today. He didn't really need that tooth, did he?:rolleyes:

I didn't hear that Ingram was under the weather today, until mentioned above. He certainly got a bit unraveled by the Louisville defense. So many turnovers, many of which (the travels) are never called, but still. Where did his shot go after the first two 3's?

I'm amazed that DT got back on the court after what appeared to be a dislocated shoulder. Glad I was wrong about that. He has become a very solid PG and defender.

MP3. What can I say but "the monster's out of the cage"! A solid, solid performance. :cool:

Time for some rest and recovery, get ready for Wake on Thursday night! LGD! GTHc! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[TKG]

I love Grayson Allen. That is one tough hombre - in the Kyle Singler mode.

[Pghdukie]

Vince McMahon should be proud of the way this game unfolded.

[FerryFor50]

maybe start by looking at the 9 minutes we went without a field goal in the second half.

maybe the officiating was bad...but that didn't cause our offense to fall off a cliff. derryck or no...you can't go through stretches like that and expect to win.

Speaking from experience, it's VERY difficult to hit any shots when you are being fouled constantly.

So it's not as if the officiating and the offensive dry spell are mutually exclusive.

[Kjeffrey]

maybe start by looking at the 9 minutes we went without a field goal in the second half.

maybe the officiating was bad...but that didn't cause our offense to fall off a cliff. derryck or no...you can't go through stretches like that and expect to win.

I think the Duke players allowed the refs to get in their heads. Maybe they were tired but either way the offense went south very quickly.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

K: "an amazingly physical second half"

[CoachJ10]

Anyone have a K post game presser link?

[SirIronDuke]

Wow what happened? I feel like i have whiplash…

Watched the game while doing the end of today's triathlon workout. Duke had it well in hand all through the end of the bike and the run after. I finished the run on the treadmill right as Grayson shot the technicals after the scrum.. At that point the announcer's discussion was about Duke suddenly in contention for a 4 seed and Louisville looked lethargic. The game seemed well in hand at that point as I headed upstairs..

Had to walk the dog when I got upstairs then do a few things and I turned back in for the finish to find us down and a lot had happened in between… what a horrible turn of events!

[tbyers11]

They looked like classic rule book definitions of F2 fouls which call for ejection I think but they took the gutless way out and game seemed to change around that point and after DT exited after he was assaulted.

Like Diamond Stone for MD against Wisconsin, I hope the ACC steps in and suspends Johnson for a game. Not holding my breath though.

[Kjeffrey]

K: "an amazingly physical second half"

Is the post game presser on TV?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

K is really holding his tongue. "Physicality wears on you, especially when you don't get to the line..."

[FerryFor50]

Like Diamond Stone for MD against Wisconsin, I hope the ACC steps in and suspends Johnson for a game. Not holding my breath though.

The elbow was way worse than the head shove IMO.

[kmspeaks]

So even Doug Gottlieb thinks we got screwed by the refs. Must be pretty bad. That being said, refereeing is a very inexact science. It so hard to make those calls at game speed and when you make thousands of calls a year, several will be bad. We get calls that help us and calls that hurt us and over the years, it probably evens out to what it should be. That's not the same as 50/50 because better teams don't foul as much and generally draw more due to talent disparity, so Duke having good teams all the time will naturally lead to them getting fouled more than we get fouled. Today didn't go our way, but I hope we can keep in mind that just as when we get the calls, no one is trying to call the game one way or the other. They're professionals and unless we're talking Tim Donaghy, they conduct themselves in their best professional judgment, even if it's wrong at times

When you're talking a call here and there, absolutely. They're humans and they're going to miss some. However in this game we're talking about either the inability or unwillingness to take control of a game that had gotten way too physical and only barely resembled basketball. I think today was an example of exactly the kind of game the FOM rules were intended to eliminate and the referees consistently failed to do their job. I don't think the refs were biased, I think they were bad.

[CoachJ10]

I think the Duke players allowed the refs to get in their heads. Maybe they were tired but either way the offense went south very quickly.

It wasn't getting in their heads, it was getting in their bodies. If you are constantly being fouled and it is not being called, you are at an incredible disadvantage. Simple cause and effect.

[Eternal Outlaw]

The elbow was way worse than the head shove IMO.

Tack on Stone was done after the shove and this guy tried to connect a punch.

[Native]

Chase had a super game, too. I don't think we could've asked more from him. The coaches have to be pleased with his contributions.

This is my takeaway. Chase quietly had some great contributions against a tough Louisville front line.

[jipops]

Could not be prouder of this DUKE team. Obviously tired, short handed, & if Thornton does not go out for several minutes I think we are right there to the last possession.

When we were 4-4 in the conference & looking ahead at the schedule over the next six games. I think any of us would have said at that time that 9-5 would be great& throw in a win over the Cheats..Pretty good stretch.

Let's hope Thornton is going to be 100% going forward. I was so relieved to see him back on the court going forward. Maybe get Matt back next week & if we get Amile at some point this season I like our chances come March.

What a gritty team.

Exactly! I've been out all day with my son so wasn't able to watch or follow the game. But if you would have told me before the GTech game that Duke would win 4 of their next 5 I would have taken that in a heart beat. This run has been incredible and I love how this team fights and claws. I'm still ecstatic about this team. This result does not change that.

NEXT PLAY!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Is the post game presser on TV?
Locker room interviews on radio.

Jeter doing the player interview. Clearly a decision not to have Grayson on live despite his 29pts.

[tbyers11]

The elbow was way worse than the head shove IMO.

Agree. The head shove was stupid by Stone but it wasn't going to seriously injure Vitto Brown. The force with which Johnson threw his elbow at Grayson could have resulted in a broken jaw. Glad it didn't

[g-money]

After calming down a bit, a few thoughts:

- Credit to all of our guys for fighting like crazy to overcome injuries, the horrible refs, borderline dirty play, and a hostile crowd.

- Derryck Thornton really showed me something by coming back into the game after hurting his shoulder. The smallest, youngest guy on the court was one of the toughest. Awesome.

- On the other hand, BI looked completely lost out there. I definitely think he should go out for the draft, but a game like this tells me he is not ready. He needs to work on fighting through contact.

- You know who is probably the biggest loser in Louisville's "foul 100 times, get called for 20" approach? The Louisville players. No NBA scout would advocate drafting one of these guys. Their style of play just does not translate.

[tbyers11]

Locker room interviews on radio.

Jeter doing the player interview. Clearly a decision not to have Grayson on live despite his 29pts.

Nice move by K. Can you send a player that didn't play the game for the post-game interview? We should have sent Matt. He is polished enough that he could be just like K and complain without crossing the line.

[devildeac]

K is really holding his tongue. "Physicality wears on you, especially when you don't get to the line..."

Good for K.

[weezie]

...I don't think the refs were biased, I think they were bad.

Yes. Plus inept, overmatched, badly educated and self-defensive.

[NashvilleDevil]

The worst part of the officiating was how much ACTUAL physical play they were allowing (stuff that affects play) but then would follow up with a weak reach in, bump call, etc that didn't affect anything. I'd much rather they take control of the game by saying early "hey, you can't ride a player jumping in the air all the way till they land just because you like to press" or "you can't grab and claw off the ball to prevent the inbound play" than watching them swallow the whistle until something minor happens.

And then calling offensive fouls later on players *responding* to that physical play, because they only way they can break loose from the contact is with contact.

Or by condoning players throwing elbows and then getting up like they're about to go 12 rounds, while shoving officials, by not ejecting them from the game. Basically, you've said "yea, an intentional elbow is just as serious as an F bomb."

Figures that the guy who should have been ejected ended up burning Duke for 6 points, 3 boards and hitting 2 FTs (as a 50% FT shooter).

That said, Duke was within striking distance down the stretch and could have pulled it out. And it would have been just as sweet as the UNC game, given how classless L'ville was this game.

I don't feel bad at all for Damion Lee missing out on the postseason after all his woofing, getting in players' faces after hitting shots, etc. Good riddance. Enjoy your last season of meaningless basketball.

Agree 100% about Lee. He was right up in Allen's face, forehead to forehead. Enjoy your one shining moment Damion.

[CameronBlue]

The officiating was bad, approaching the 2004 National Semis in crimes against nature, Grayson's 5th was the work of a healthy imagination by a ref with a grudge, but...Duke didn't lose the game because of officiating. It's college basketball, officiating is unpredictable and what goes around comes around. Pitino decided to play rough and the refs let him. They let a lot of bumping and hip checking go without being called but I've seen similarly rough games.

Duke lost in part because they let up with a 13 point lead just enough and suddenly seemed to realize how tired they were. Thornton's absence from the court was critical obviously impeding Duke's ability to move the ball. Ingram was off, Kennard was off and couldn't really create much space for himself in the second half--Duke lost some composure at key times. K tried to shock them back to life and if you are looking for moral victories, I was amazed Duke was able to get it back to 2 at 66-64 without Grayson, that's one.

But credit Louisville. They played tough but not dirty the exception being the elbow to Grayson's lip which should be reviewed by the league office. The refs allowed them to set the tone and Duke was spent. Duke had them and unfortunately couldn't finish. Next play.

[FerryFor50]

Nice move by K. Can you send a player that didn't play the game for the post-game interview? We should have sent Matt. He is polished enough that he could be just like K and complain without crossing the line.

Matt could have answered every question with "I don't know, I wasn't out there." :cool:

[Doria]

People were outraged Grayson Allen was not ejected after his intentional trip in the Virginia game. Who thinks there will even be a mention of the Louisville player staying in the game after giving G an elbow to the head?

Also, in no world do I see Louisville suspending him a game, as Maryland did Stone for his much less forceful (though still incredibly awful) bouncing the Wisconsin player's head on the court.

[LSanders]

Is there anything to talk about except Duke's guts and horrible, horrible officiating?

Every now and then there's a game where officiating IS the story. Sorry, but that's my only thought on this one. I'd be slightly relieved to learn Ingram was under the weather I suppose.

Amen. Couldn't agree more with both comments.

[devildeac]

Nice move by K. Can you send a player that didn't play the game for the post-game interview? We should have sent Matt. He is polished enough that he could be just like K and complain without crossing the line.

If that happened, it'd be damned for certain the acc would (might) suspend him for a game.

[Kjeffrey]

Also, in no world do I see Louisville suspending him a game, as Maryland did Stone for his much less forceful (though still incredibly awful) bouncing the Wisconsin player's head on the court.

Can the ACC review it and suspend him? I completely agree with you - there is zero chance Louisville does anything about it.

[FerryFor50]

The officiating was bad, approaching the 2004 National Semis in crimes against nature, Grayson's 5th was the work of a healthy imagination by an ref with a grudge, but....Duke didn't lose the game because of officiating. It's college basketball, officiating is unpredictable and what goes around comes around. Pitino decided to play rough and the refs let him. They let a lot of bumping and hip checking go without being called but I've seen similarly rough games.

Duke lost in part because they let up with a 13 point lead just enough and suddenly seemed to realize how tired they were. Thornton's absence from the court was critical obviously impeding Duke's ability to move the ball. Ingram was off, Kennard was off and couldn't really create much space for himself in the second half--Duke lost some composure at key times. K tried to shock them back to life and if you are looking for moral victories, I was amazed Duke as able to get it back to 2 at 66-64 without Grayson.

But credit Louisville. They played tough but not dirty the exception being the elbow to Grayson's lip, that should be reviewed by the league office. The refs allowed them to set the tone and Duke was spent. Duke had them and unfortunately couldn't finish. Next play.

I don't see how people aren't making the connection of constant physical contact on drives and inbounds = offensive drought.

And yes, perhaps they were tired. Allow me to quote Airplane:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2igwohrh_s

[BringBackHorvath]

Pitino is a thug and a bad person.

Grayson Allen somehow got 6 fouls.

Our kids are awesome.

That's about it.

Grayson's technical and sixth foul was assessed to Daniel Ewing, as is tradition.

Long time listener, first time poster, and now shocked at how far back I had to look to find the year Daniel Ewing got 5 technicals ('04-05). Surely I didn't graduate that long ago...

I don't know if I recall last time Duke got two T's in one game, nor a game in which three T's were called. Ugly game to watch, and when you've given three T's, has to kind of feel to the refs like things have gotten away from you.

[Devilwin]

Proud as well of the guys. Brandon was awful, but who isn't from time to time. We're beat up and weary. Get Matt (and Amile) back, we are good to go.

Now. I saw Duke lose a game to St. Peter's years ago and up til now, I though that was the worst officiated game I'd ever seen. Til now.. This was beyond bad, beyond horrible. Lost all respect for Louisville. Not at all sorry they sit home this year.:mad:

[devildeac]

The officiating was bad, approaching the 2004 National Semis in crimes against nature, Grayson's 5th was the work of a healthy imagination by a ref with a grudge, but...Duke didn't lose the game because of officiating. It's college basketball, officiating is unpredictable and what goes around comes around. Pitino decided to play rough and the refs let him. They let a lot of bumping and hip checking go without being called but I've seen similarly rough games.

Duke lost in part because they let up with a 13 point lead just enough and suddenly seemed to realize how tired they were. Thornton's absence from the court was critical obviously impeding Duke's ability to move the ball. Ingram was off, Kennard was off and couldn't really create much space for himself in the second half--Duke lost some composure at key times. K tried to shock them back to life and if you are looking for moral victories, I was amazed Duke as able to get it back to 2 at 66-64 without Grayson, that's one.

But credit Louisville. They played tough but not dirty the exception being the elbow to Grayson's lip which should be reviewed by the league office. The refs allowed them to set the tone and Duke was spent. Duke had them and unfortunately couldn't finish. Next play.

Check out this thread. The FoM emphasis this year was supposed to reduce/prevent this sort of mauling.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37044-How-do-you-all-feel-about-the-quot-Free-Movement-Rules-quot-in-effect-this-year

[weezie]

OK, so a ref actually pulls Lee back from the burgeoning fight after he's just clocked Allen's jaw and same ref feels, naaah, no flagrant! Boys will be boys!
But let's call a T on K, just cause we can! We're refs! We are infallible. Ain't life grand?!

[NashvilleDevil]

This game should prepare Duke for Florida St. Another team that is usually physical.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

OK, so a ref actually pulls Lee back from the burgeoning fight after he's just clocked Allen's jaw and same ref feels, naaah, no flagrant! Boys will be boys!
But let's call a T on K, just cause we can! We're refs! We are infallible. Ain't life grand?!
I was hoping K would pull a Boeheim and rip off his jacket.

[El_Diablo]

I don't see how people aren't making the connection of constant physical contact on drives and inbounds = offensive drought.

The defense broke down repeatedly during that stretch too. Yes, the officiating was awful, but we can't let that infect every other aspect of the game. I can't really fault the players though--they were getting jobbed repeatedly and kept fighting their hearts out. Hopefully we can take a lesson or two about overcoming adversity but otherwise we need to just move on to the next play.

You know the officiating is truly awful if even Gottlieb is on our side:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 49 minutes ago
🐄💩📞 #DukeVsLouisville

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 51 minutes ago
what an awful call on Grayson Allen. -- of course a technical because Allen pointed out how bad a call it was #DukevsLOU

[Karl Beem]

maybe start by looking at the 9 minutes we went without a field goal in the second half.

maybe the officiating was bad...but that didn't cause our offense to fall off a cliff. derryck or no...you can't go through stretches like that and expect to win.

Our star players were being mugged.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

The defense broke down repeatedly during that stretch too. Yes, the officiating was awful, but we can't let that infect every other aspect of the game. I can't really fault the players though--they were getting jobbed repeatedly and kept fighting their hearts out. Hopefully we can take a lesson or two about overcoming adversity but otherwise we need to just move on to the next play.

You know the officiating is truly awful if even Gottlieb is on our side:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 49 minutes ago
🐄💩📞 #DukeVsLouisville

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 51 minutes ago
what an awful call on Grayson Allen. -- of course a technical because Allen pointed out how bad a call it was #DukevsLOU
Alarmingly awful call.

[FerryFor50]

The defense broke down repeatedly during that stretch too. Yes, the officiating was awful, but we can't let that infect every other aspect of the game. I can't really fault the players though--they were getting jobbed repeatedly and kept fighting their hearts out. Hopefully we can take a lesson or two about overcoming adversity but otherwise we need to just move on to the next play.

You know the officiating is truly awful if even Gottlieb is on our side:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 49 minutes ago
🐄💩📞 #DukeVsLouisville

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 51 minutes ago
what an awful call on Grayson Allen. -- of course a technical because Allen pointed out how bad a call it was #DukevsLOU

Well, they were up by enough to allow for some defensive breakdowns. If they could have kept scoring (or at least getting shots without taking shots), then they could have kept the score out of reach.

[Bob Green]

OK, so a ref actually pulls Lee back from the burgeoning fight after he's just clocked Allen's jaw..

It was not Lee who elbowed Allen and had to be pulled off by the ref. It was Jaylen Johnson.

[CameronBlue]

Check out this thread. The FoM emphasis this year was supposed to reduce/prevent this sort of mauling.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37044-How-do-you-all-feel-about-the-quot-Free-Movement-Rules-quot-in-effect-this-year

I think refs respond mostly to a hand-check or "arm bar." Pitino slyly had his team "body" Duke on its drives, waist bumps, hip bumps but with arms generally extended out to the side. Call it a foul if you want (and I agree) but it was a gamble that paid off for Pitino. Given the atmosphere and refs who didn't want to "bail Duke out" just because they were tired and short-handed, Pitino cashed in. Tactically it happens in college basketball. Pitino pushed it to the limit.

[Lulu]

This game puts the moderators here in a real jam... gotta feel for them. As much as they might want to shut down the constant ridicule of the officials that's going to continue through this whole thread, it's the most justified I can recall. It's not that it was one bad call that decided a game at the end and sends everyone into an uproar, it's that is was nearly the whole game and got worse and worse as the game went on. I'd really like to know who these officials were so I could somehow make sense in my head of how they got swept into the emotion of the game themselves. I wouldn't want it, but I was actually curious if we'd benefit from any special treatment from the refs being down 3 men; instead it was the opposite and they couldn't wait to punish duke while looking away on the other end. Absurd. It wasn't even just the physical aspects - yeah, there's more uncalled traveling in college bball these days but I must have seen around 4 uncalled travels by Louisville very similar to the ones they were whistling away against Duke. We might not have played perfectly, but no here is going to blame our players or coach for this one (unlike a very recent post-game meltdown by one of our opponents).

[devildeac]

OK, so a ref actually pulls Lee back from the burgeoning fight after he's just clocked Allen's jaw and same ref feels, naaah, no flagrant! Boys will be boys!
But let's call a T on K, just cause we can! We're refs! We are infallible. Ain't life grand?!

Well, to be fair to those cretins, Allen shot 2 FT so I'm guessing there was an F1 there, instead of what I think the rule book labels an F2 with an intentional elbow to the head (ignoring, of course, the thug got up swinging, too).

[devildeac]

The defense broke down repeatedly during that stretch too. Yes, the officiating was awful, but we can't let that infect every other aspect of the game. I can't really fault the players though--they were getting jobbed repeatedly and kept fighting their hearts out. Hopefully we can take a lesson or two about overcoming adversity but otherwise we need to just move on to the next play.

You know the officiating is truly awful if even Gottlieb is on our side:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 49 minutes ago
🐄💩📞 #DukeVsLouisville

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 51 minutes ago
what an awful call on Grayson Allen. -- of course a technical because Allen pointed out how bad a call it was #DukevsLOU

Wow, can't believe he tweeted that. Good find.

[Bob Green]

This game puts the moderators here in a real jam....

Not really. Complaining is not against the rules.

[FerryFor50]

Not really. Complaining is not against the rules.

What about unwritten rules? :cool:

[Bob Green]

What about unwritten rules? :cool:

I haven't read them in a while. :cool:

[Doria]

Can the ACC review it and suspend him? I completely agree with you - there is zero chance Louisville does anything about it.

I believe they can (could be wrong, though), but with Louisville's well-earned post-season ban, I can't see them doing it.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Where in the heck was Brandon? That was his worst performance all year. He had more turnovers (10) than points (9). And could someone please explain this to me? Brandon was the designated inbounder after Louisville scored. EVERY SINGLE TIME once they pressed us, he would walk slowly to the ball and delay picking it up. We did fine with the press but really beat it when someone else raced to get, stepped out quickly and zipped it in... Usually to Thornton. I felt that Brandon's slowness cost us a lot. I would love to have someone explain why I am wrong!

[CameronDuke]

This was a very winnable game. Duke led the majority of the game but when they got up 13, they let up. Also, they played with extreme heart and tenacity but lacked focus at times. I don't have a problem with their effort. They played hard as heck.

This was Ingram's worst game since the Kentucky game. 3-10 shooting and double digit turnovers - woof. Louisville's press gave Duke problems. Duke's press break offensive spacing was atrocious. The one time they sent Marshall on a fly pattern deep he was hit in stride for a dunk, yet Duke kept trying to break the press by bringing all five guys into the backcourt and tripping over each other or getting trapped. We simply could not figure out the press and it took its toll on Duke down the stretch.

Im glad Thornton seems to be ok. When he went out, Louisville went on their run. The game was extremely physical and I agree the refs made too many questionable calls to count. My biggest gripe was the constant grabbing, bumping, pulling on Allen and Ingram when they tried to dribble. The foul that they called a charge on to foul Allen out was laughable. That wasn't even close. But, our lack of depth took its collective toll. With Allen out, we just had no one else to go to to get offense. Guys are tired but 3-1 in our last 4 is way better than I honestly expected.

The refs were bad, but Louisville was whistled for 3 more fouls than Duke today and Duke shot the same number of free throws as Louisville. So no disparity there. But I agree, Louisville played like thugs at times, especially when #10 elbowed Allen. He should have been ejected for that. And the constant body contact could have been called way more than it was on Louisville.

[Doria]

Well, to be fair to those cretins, Allen shot 2 FT so I'm guessing there was an F1 there, instead of what I think the rule book labels an F2 with an intentional elbow to the head (ignoring, of course, the thug got up swinging, too).

Yeah, it was a flagrant 1, but as with the Maryland game, I just think it's either a flagrant 2 or a no call (if you... haha... want to argue it was a play on the ball that accidentally elbowed the other guy in the mouth). I just don't see any way that isn't intentional, unless you're going to argue it was a basketball play, in which case it was probably incidental, as it didn't create an advantage.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Where in the heck was Brandon? That was his worst performance all year. He had more turnovers (10) than points (9). And could someone please explain this to me? Brandon was the designated inbounder after Louisville scored. EVERY SINGLE TIME once they pressed us, he would walk slowly to the ball and delay picking it up. We did fine with the press but really beat it when someone else raced to get, stepped out quickly and zipped it in... Usually to Thornton. I felt that Brandon's slowness cost us a lot. I would love to have someone explain why I am wrong!
Could possibly be that he was tired. Or maybe just exhausted. Or something like that.

[Rickshaw]

Tell you what.................if they can survive,these guys will be in great shape for the end run !

[DU82]

Where in the heck was Brandon? That was his worst performance all year. He had more turnovers (10) than points (9). And could someone please explain this to me? Brandon was the designated inbounder after Louisville scored. EVERY SINGLE TIME once they pressed us, he would walk slowly to the ball and delay picking it up. We did fine with the press but really beat it when someone else raced to get, stepped out quickly and zipped it in... Usually to Thornton. I felt that Brandon's slowness cost us a lot. I would love to have someone explain why I am wrong!

The inbounds play is a way to run clock, and shorten the game. The coaches clearly designed the inbounds for Brandon to do it, inbound to either a guard, or Marshall giving it right back. Worked pretty well. Brandon's turnovers were more in the half court area than while inbounding.

[uh_no]

Speaking from experience, it's VERY difficult to hit any shots when you are being fouled constantly.

So it's not as if the officiating and the offensive dry spell are mutually exclusive.

i don't doubt it...but we can't control the officiating, only how we react to it...and our reaction for the last 10 minutes of the game was incredibly poor on the offensive end, which is unfortunate given how well the team had played and how many obstacles it had overcome.

[jipops]

Where in the heck was Brandon? That was his worst performance all year. He had more turnovers (10) than points (9). And could someone please explain this to me? Brandon was the designated inbounder after Louisville scored. EVERY SINGLE TIME once they pressed us, he would walk slowly to the ball and delay picking it up. We did fine with the press but really beat it when someone else raced to get, stepped out quickly and zipped it in... Usually to Thornton. I felt that Brandon's slowness cost us a lot. I would love to have someone explain why I am wrong!

He's a freshman. He just came off a 40 minute game against the cheats. I'll give him a pass. He's still growing up. As K has said, he is not yet the player he will become.

[uh_no]

Well, to be fair to those cretins, Allen shot 2 FT so I'm guessing there was an F1 there, instead of what I think the rule book labels an F2 with an intentional elbow to the head (ignoring, of course, the thug got up swinging, too).

no. it was a dead-ball technical foul, which is the correct call there.

[Ian]

Game went about how I expected. Actually it went better than I expect. I never expected us to have a double digit lead.

Proud of the team for showing so much guts.

Game changed when Louisville got called for the F1. After that call the refs went out of their way to please to home crowd and basically allowed Louisville to do anything to us with impunity.

Ingram had nothing in the tank after the 1st 5 minutes, which is also something not surprising given his minutes lately and how draining the last game was.

Get Matt back and we run the table 4-0 for the rest of the regular season. Get Amile back and I like out chances in the post season.

[JD for Three!]

I think the foul (not called!) that sent Thornton out hurt was the key to the game. It hurt obviously because we could no longer easily handle the press. We were taking too much time when we did manage to get it up the floor, and that left the offense hurried. We missed him on defense much, much more. I don't have the exact time he went out, but I bet it is pretty close to when Lee was suddenly open and having success from three point range.
Poor, poor officiating. I agree with the earlier comments about the fouls, and especially with the comment about how many Louisville travels were not called. It's easy to get wound up in the emotion of a loss and blame the calls whether they impacted the outcome or not. That's not the case here. It was just a mugging encouraged by a poor excuse for a coach

[devildeac]

no. it was a dead-ball technical foul, which is the correct call there.

Looked like it was still live. Then why no ejection for striking AND attempting to strike another player?

[Lulu]

...The refs were bad, but Louisville was whistled for 3 more fouls than Duke today and Duke shot the same number of free throws as Louisville. So no disparity there. But I agree, Louisville played like thugs at times, especially when #10 elbowed Allen. He should have been ejected for that. And the constant body contact could have been called way more than it was on Louisville.

I hate to be like this, but the above argument (often put forth in the media, not picking on the above poster in any way at all) never settles with me well even when we're on the other side of it. Not to be too simplistic, but if one team is delivering the blows and one team is taking them, there SHOULD be a disparity. I don't know why so much is written of disparity in foul numbers when as far as I'm concerned it's expected, ... disparity in calls is what matters.

[FerryFor50]

I hate to be like this, but the above argument (often put forth in the media, not picking on the above poster) never settles with me well even when we're on the other side of it. Not to be too simplistic, but if one team is delivering the blows and one team is taking them, there SHOULD be a disparity. I don't know why so much is written of disparity in foul numbers when as far as I'm concerned it's expected, ... disparity in calls is another story.

Agreed. The issue was with what was being called vs what was going UNCALLED. L'ville was being as physical as they could every play and dared the officials to call it. They could afford to, as they have a deeper team.

Duke cannot answer the physicality in kind, as that would leave them with no one left to play.

[mgtr]

Agree with all the preceding comments. Jeter looked better than he has. Now, if we get Jeter, Jones and Jefferson up and running by tournament time, we should be in good shape.

I guess our parting line to Louisville could be "See you in the tournament. Oh.. wait."

[Neals384]

It's a terrible day to be a Louisville recruit, because clearly all the ladies have been promised tonight for the refs - and the refs earned them.

Post of the day!


It was a physical game and it seemed at a couple of points that the officials were on the verge of losing control of the game. I don't want to whine about getting jobbed by the officials, though. It is what it is as we say out in the lineup.


Some of those Louisville thugs belong in a different sort of lineup.


On another note, Dickie Vitale is hard to stomach. He was coaching Louisville on how to get Kennard fouled out, etc. What in the heck is a color announcer doing with that kind of inappropriate comment. And by the way, Louisville had serious and major violations and should have received strong penalties. Why is Dickie V saying not to penalize the program other than a financial penalty against the institution. The kind of gutter ethics at Louisville needs to be penalized harshly so it doesn't get repeated. The kids, like the Penn State Football case, are caught up in the sins of others but how else do you penalize for this kind of thing without taking a several year ban on post season.

Well, any current or future Louisville players who were part of this particular recruiting violation are hardly innocent!

[DBFAN]

This was a very winnable game. Duke led the majority of the game but when they got up 13, they let up. Also, they played with extreme heart and tenacity but lacked focus at times. I don't have a problem with their effort. They played hard as heck.

This was Ingram's worst game since the Kentucky game. 3-10 shooting and double digit turnovers - woof. Louisville's press gave Duke problems. Duke's press break offensive spacing was atrocious. The one time they sent Marshall on a fly pattern deep he was hit in stride for a dunk, yet Duke kept trying to break the press by bringing all five guys into the backcourt and tripping over each other or getting trapped. We simply could not figure out the press and it took its toll on Duke down the stretch.

Im glad Thornton seems to be ok. When he went out, Louisville went on their run. The game was extremely physical and I agree the refs made too many questionable calls to count. My biggest gripe was the constant grabbing, bumping, pulling on Allen and Ingram when they tried to dribble. The foul that they called a charge on to foul Allen out was laughable. That wasn't even close. But, our lack of depth took its collective toll. With Allen out, we just had no one else to go to to get offense. Guys are tired but 3-1 in our last 4 is way better than I honestly expected.

The refs were bad, but Louisville was whistled for 3 more fouls than Duke today and Duke shot the same number of free throws as Louisville. So no disparity there. But I agree, Louisville played like thugs at times, especially when #10 elbowed Allen. He should have been ejected for that. And the constant body contact could have been called way more than it was on Louisville.


So I could see your point at the end if it was one or 2 disagreeable calls. But I'm trying to figure out how Allen was supposed to react. Gets elbowed in Face guy only gets Tech called. Then called for a 5th foul when a guy slides under him sideways, swinging his hip into him, which is about as dangerous of a play to a guy who is in the air. The media has given fans and officiating all the leverage to allow players to be as physical on him as they want. Because when you are another hated "white kid" on Duke it becomes completely acceptable because he obviously deserves it. Yes Duke has to has to handle those things, but there is a breaking point

[KandG]

maybe start by looking at the 9 minutes we went without a field goal in the second half.

maybe the officiating was bad...but that didn't cause our offense to fall off a cliff. derryck or no...you can't go through stretches like that and expect to win.

I'm one of those people that absolutely hates to point to officials except in very blatant cases, and usually for one or two questionable calls at most. However, I think this game definitely walked the line in terms of the overall physicality allowed.

Moreover, the idea of "it's on Duke for not scoring a field goal in nine minutes" is misleading, because this team actually goes through FG "droughts" frequently. But as K pointed out, physicality wears you down and affects your play if you're not getting to the line.

Look at some of the FG droughts we've had recently. They're all compensated for by the fact that we manage to get to the line consistently:

Vs Virginia at home: Duke up 51-44 with 12:16 left — 1 field goal in 12:15 before the Grayson game winner, 9 FTs in 15 attempts (including missing the front end of two one and ones).

Vs Louisville at home: Duke up 55-49 with nine minutes left, 1 field goal in 8:25, 11 FTs in 15 attempts.

Vs NC State in Raleigh: Duke up 69-57 with 10:10 left, one FG the rest of the game (a broken play Grayson Allen 3 pointer), 16 FTs in 21 attempts to end the game.

Contrast all that to today's game, which was far more physical than any of the other games above (VA is physical but largely defends very cleanly without fouling): Up 54-45 with 10:29 left, no FGs until 2:14 left in the game, and only 6 FTs in 8 attempts in that time period against a team that pressed full court and bumped players throughout.

Now a larger point could be made about our offense's ability to get scores in the last 10 minutes of the game, and that maybe playing all these minutes means our players start to wear down getting to the finish line, but getting to the line is a BIG part of how we've succeeded in pulling out games.

[uh_no]

Looked like it was still live. Then why no ejection for striking AND attempting to strike another player?

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred....making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great....but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face....But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.

[OZ]

One long time complaint I have with the officiating process is they are an important part of the game... they can control the way the game is played...and they can affect the outcome; but, when the final horn sounds, they are allowed to lock themselves away. The coaches and players come out and face the music (media), but the officials never have to face the same scrutiny.
After the Miami FB game, Cut had to face the media and his players... the officials, though later suspended never had to explain their actions/inactions.
I would love to hear K explain his technical; but, I would also like to see the official who called Allen's charge look at the monitor and explain his call.

[tbyers11]

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.


Gotta disagree strongly here. I've watched it several times. There was contact by both Johnson and Grayson up to the time of the elbow fighting for the ball. I've got no problem there. But, IMO, the elbow was in no way incidental or part of a motion of fighting for the ball. It was a deliberate elbow meant to hit Grayson.

[FerryFor50]

Gotta disagree strongly here. I've watched it several times. There was contact by both Johnson and Grayson up to the time of the elbow fighting for the ball. I've got no problem there. But, IMO, the elbow was in no way incidental or part of a motion of fighting for the ball. It was a deliberate elbow meant to hit Grayson.

And then Johnson got up after, looking for a fight and had to be physically restrained by the official.

Unless he was mad about how bad his elbow hurt from Allen's face, intent was established.

[OZ]

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred...making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great...but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face...But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.



I hope Grayson doesn't change a thing. That fire is what sets him apart and makes him the player he is. Yes, it might get him in trouble occasionally - but it didn't result in him sticking his jaw into that guys elbow. When you are fighting that intensely for a ball, you don't slow down and measure your response. I don't think that elbow had a lot to do with that particular skirmish... I think it was built up anger with Allen.

[Lulu]

Gotta disagree strongly here. I've watched it several times. There was contact by both Johnson and Grayson up to the time of the elbow fighting for the ball. I've got no problem there. But the elbow was in no way incidental or part of a motion of fighting for the ball. It was a deliberate elbow meant to hit Grayson.

Completely true. Despite what the announcers were saying swinging his elbow out like that was in no way whatsoever an attempt to gather the ball, unless you technically consider an elbow to your opponent's face one way to do so. It was meant for Allen. That swing was in the opposite direction his arm should be moving if he was going for the ball; it's not even a reckless attempt at the ball. You don't even have to see the swings he was making after being pulled away to see it's true.

As long as Allen came out ok that plays hardly matters to me though.

[porkpa]

I have been watching Duke basketball for upwards of forty years.
Grayson Allen has to be the toughest and most fearless player to wear a Duke uniform during that time.
I never saw Dick Groat play, but possibly absent him, Grayson fits those specs to a tee.

[Dukehky]

We won 2 games in this brutal stretch by 1 point and lost a game where our best player played like dog crap. 3-1 is miraculous.

We need to win the next three games desperately. FSU and Pitt are going to be tough. They are big and physical. Who knows what could happen with UNC, mostly if they hit 3's we can't beat them as constituted, but if they don't we have a chance.

This is a stretch we should probably go 3 for 3, so let's focus up and do that. If we win out, then we won't have a double digit loss season, which would be super.

[uh_no]

We need to win the next three games desperately.

why?

regular season: the title is pretty much off the table at this point. we'd need 5 teams to lose another game and for us to win out. ain't going to happen
NCAA seeding: I highly doubt a loss to pitt or FSU will significantly impact our seeding. both are pretty good and quite possibly tournament teams.
"momentum": This team just rolled off an incredible stretch, and has showed ridiculous toughness...I highly doubt a loss to a good team will affect them much
ACC seeding: we're sitting at the 5 seed right now, so some help is needed anyway....a loss likely puts the double bye completely out of reach...but not sure that's desperate. Note that ND and miami have tiebreakers over us.

[dairedevil]

Here is my take on today. I went in to this game expecting a loss. A young team with no reserves, having lost two players to injury, coming off an emotional, last second victory three days ago, playing a team with nothing to lose? I was hoping that they would show up and look halfway decent. They certainly did much more than that. I'll give l'ville credit for taking Ingram out of his game. I don't like the way they did it, with the pushing and grabbing along with the double teams and press, but it was effective. I'm sure other teams will have that in a scouting report, so he'd better work on how to deal with that kind of pressure. The cardinals had no answer for Grayson, except to literally try to knock him out. Once again Duke proved what a tough, gutty group of guys this team is. They don't give up, whatever gets thrown at them. Kudos to K, the coaching staff, and the team for making this season a lot more interesting..and hopeful than I thought it would be in December when Amile broke his foot.

Rest up, boys! Next play!

[duke4ever19]

I have been watching Duke basketball for upwards of forty years.
Grayson Allen has to be the toughest and most fearless player to wear a Duke uniform during that time.
I never saw Dick Groat play, but possibly absent him, Grayson fits those specs to a tee.

I agree. I would also add Hurley, Wojo and Battier as in the mix as his only competition for the title in recent years (yes, the early 1990's are still recent years to me 😀)

[Forrest]

I have been watching Duke basketball for upwards of forty years.
Grayson Allen has to be the toughest and most fearless player to wear a Duke uniform during that time.
I never saw Dick Groat play, but possibly absent him, Grayson fits those specs to a tee.

Art Heyman.

If Jaylen Johnson had elbowed Heyman like that, a dead ball technical would have been the least of his worries.

[BoiseDevil]

Not a criticism, but a suggestion...

It appeared to me Ingram was operating too far from the basket. It also appears Thornton has become more reliable.

I'd like to see a set where Kennard is at 3-pt line, left baseline corner. Grayson the same but right corner. Plumlee in his baseline pocket area. Put Ingram on either elbow and have him and Thornton run a two-man game, PNR. If Thornton keeps it around the screen he'll have 4 options (floater, drop to Plums, or kick to corners for 3's. If Ingram posts at the elbow it's an easy entry pass and let him go to work. Ingram could also bring a screen to the 3-pt line and nail a 3 on the pop.

I felt for the first time this year we didn't get Ingram the ball at the elbow when a quicker guy was guarding him. Maybe it was being tired, but he looked uncomfortable with his dribble all day. I didn't notice if the guy guarding him was as tall, but it appeared everyone guarding him was quick enough to fluster him.

[Wander]

i don't doubt it...but we can't control the officiating, only how we react to it...and our reaction for the last 10 minutes of the game was incredibly poor on the offensive end, which is unfortunate given how well the team had played and how many obstacles it had overcome.

You're being way too hard on our guys. Forget about the theories about physicality and playing through contact with no fouls being called - Louisville took our only point guard out of the game (on a no-call), obviously in addition to our other two injuries. Other than Ingram, our guys played far far better than "incredibly poor" considering the circumstances.

[dukelifer]

We won 2 games in this brutal stretch by 1 point and lost a game where our best player played like dog crap. 3-1 is miraculous.

We need to win the next three games desperately. FSU and Pitt are going to be tough. They are big and physical. Who knows what could happen with UNC, mostly if they hit 3's we can't beat them as constituted, but if they don't we have a chance.

This is a stretch we should probably go 3 for 3, so let's focus up and do that. If we win out, then we won't have a double digit loss season, which would be super.

The goal is to get into the tourney and have everyone back and healthy.

[gurufrisbee]

The refs were bad, but Louisville was whistled for 3 more fouls than Duke today and Duke shot the same number of free throws as Louisville. So no disparity there. But I agree, Louisville played like thugs at times, especially when #10 elbowed Allen. He should have been ejected for that. And the constant body contact could have been called way more than it was on Louisville.

And that is exactly the problem. With the physical, thug-style, constant full court pressure physicality and offensively settling for jumpers where Duke played back on defense and drove to the rim on offense, Louisville should have easily been called for at least DOUBLE the number of fouls. They still would get their turnovers that they earned with that strategy and still get back into it when they start hitting three's, but there was no way the number of fouls and free throws should have been anywhere close to each other.


And then Johnson got up after, looking for a fight and had to be physically restrained by the official.

Unless he was mad about how bad his elbow hurt from Allen's face, intent was established.

EXACTLY! Off the court, Johnson should be arrested. His intent was to hurt another human. Nothing about basketball at all. No excuse for him being allowed to stay in the game.


The cardinals had no answer for Grayson, except to literally try to knock him out.

Or let their three teammates in the stripes get him out of the game.

[Lulu]

One long time complaint I have with the officiating process is they are an important part of the game... they can control the way the game is played...and they can affect the outcome; but, when the final horn sounds, they are allowed to lock themselves away. The coaches and players come out and face the music (media), but the officials never have to face the same scrutiny.
After the Miami FB game, Cut had to face the media and his players... the officials, though later suspended never had to explain their actions/inactions.
I would love to hear K explain his technical; but, I would also like to see the official who called Allen's charge look at the monitor and explain his call.

Well this could get me way off-topic...

-Does anyone else hate how the foul limit is the deciding factor in many games, when the fouls themselves are so subjective and at times incorrect? I think the foul limit should just be removed. I'm not qualified to be writing rules, but something like penalizing the offender by giving 2 shots once they hit their personal limit regardless of the team fouls seems more fair. There are other possibilities for bonus situations, etc., I image. How many times do you see teams' best players unable to actually play defense because of foul trouble, or riding the bench in the first half, and of course being out of the game entirely, because of one or more highly questionable calls? The answer is "all the time", or perhaps more accurately "it's part of the game these days". Well it shouldn't be. The foul limit just adds to the importance of the officiating, tremendously so, when the aim should be to lessen it.

-While I'm off topic, does anyone see any sense in the 10 second rule now that the shot clock is down to 30 seconds anyway? I don't particularly care that much, but no one is deliberately wasting time on the opposite end of the court anymore so it's getting to be one of those more arbitrary rules just adding to officials' burdens, like the 5sec rule they removed.

I've got thoughts on a couple more but am being pulled away.

[weezie]

...Johnson got up after, looking for a fight and had to be physically restrained by the official.

Unless he was mad about how bad his elbow hurt from Allen's face, intent was established.

Right, right, right! I said Lee in a previous post but I was sputtering mad. F450 is absolutely, positively on point.

Then again, I guess we're just lucky that the zebras didn't call a tech then on GA for hurting Johnson's elbow with his granite strength face. Wouldn't have been that surprising if they had.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I make it a policy to not comment on refs generally.

So instead, I will just say, UL really got into Ingram's head. From the opening tip, he was their focus. Worked out well for them.

Let's get healthy for the stretch run.

[3rd Dukie]

Art Heyman.

If Jaylen Johnson had elbowed Heyman like that, a dead ball technical would have been the least of his worries.

You beat me to it. The 1960-61 season was my first (I think) season as a Duke fan. As I recall that would have been Artie's sophomore season. He was one mean character. Ask Larry Brown.

[Emerrick]

I have been watching Duke basketball for upwards of forty years.
Grayson Allen has to be the toughest and most fearless player to wear a Duke uniform during that time.
I never saw Dick Groat play, but possibly absent him, Grayson fits those specs to a tee.

It's not that I haven't been a Grayson Allen fan, I've really just been indifferent. That all changed today. The guy is legit tough as nails and a fighter through and through. He is my new favorite!

[Bob Green]

Coach K Presser:

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5058924&db_oem_id=4200

[devildeac]

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred...making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great...but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face...But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.

Then, by this logic, it's ok to strike a player in the face (or anywhere) AND take another swing at him as someone upthread mentioned AND wrestle with a ref after the whistle w/o an ejection. Sorry, that can't be correct, nor can you. As someone else upthread also mentioned, there's only so much a player/team/coach can take, as K's T and some of his post-games comments that have filtered back here so far seem to indicate.

[duke4ever19]

Here's a link to Coach K's post game presser. Justly confused and upset about the way the game was called.

"That was the most physical second half that we have ever been in . . . this year."

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?db_oem_id=4200

Edit: Sorry, didn't see it posted already.

[uh_no]

You're being way too hard on our guys. Forget about the theories about physicality and playing through contact with no fouls being called - Louisville took our only point guard out of the game (on a no-call), obviously in addition to our other two injuries. Other than Ingram, our guys played far far better than "incredibly poor" considering the circumstances.

There's no reason we should have grayson and ingram on the floor and not score from the floor for almost 10 minutes.

Was fatigue a part of it? sure
Was reffing a part of it? sure
Is that all of it? no.

How many times did we dribble ourselves into trouble? How many turnovers did Brandon have?

We didn't run sets which effectively coped with UL's pressure in the half court. And if that's because of how the game was being called? Then it's STILL on us for not adjusting to the officiating.

The team has done an incredible job given the amount of hurdles that have been erected...it's one of the things that made the win on wednedsay so special. No hurdles, though, should hold one of the best offensive teams in the country, with its two best offensive players on the floor to no buckets for as long as we went today.

I guarantee the coaches will go back and figure out what they could have done differently on offense. Would it have been easier if we had amile? matt? healthy derryck? no foul trouble? got to the line? of course! and as I said...it's amazing that they were still able to accomplish much of what they have. Does that mean that I have to accept that the last 10 minutes of that game was the best we could have done? absolutely not. I think we could have done better, I think K knows we could have done better, and I think the team knows we could have done better.

There's always things you can do better after every game, regardless of circumstances. You may say "the team needs a break because it would have been hard"....but you don't get better by accepting a result simply because it would have been hard to get a better outcome. This team knows that...and it's why we're 3-1 in the past 4 games, and were in the running for a title until today.

Too hard? only honest. I call it like I see it.

[devildeac]

Coach K Presser:

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5058924&db_oem_id=4200

Could someone provide a summary and/or some quotes, please. My media player wouldn't stop buffering :o:mad: .

Thanks.

[dukelifer]

I make it a policy to not comment on refs generally.

So instead, I will just say, UL really got into Ingram's head. From the opening tip, he was their focus. Worked out well for them.

Let's get healthy for the stretch run.

Second time through the league means teams have a better sense of strengths and weaknesses.

[Neals384]

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred...making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great...but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face...But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.

Your handle says it all...Uh, No

[Devilwin]

Art Heyman.

If Jaylen Johnson had elbowed Heyman like that, a dead ball technical would have been the least of his worries.

I remember Heyman, toughest ever at Duke, and you are right. Johnson would have needed five guys to get him outta there.

[wavedukefan70s]

The guy was swinging as he was pulled away.if everyone is calling for grayson to be suspended or ejected for tripping. That has to qualify as a complaint for the louisville player to argumentatively be up for ejection.
Yes we did not do a lot of things well and didnt help our own cause .the way they were on our guys usually requires dinner, a few drinks and a mutual atraction between parties.

[WakeDevil]

I knew from officiating that the answer was wrong as soon as I read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagrant_foul


A flagrant personal foul involves excessive or severe contact during a live ball.
A flagrant technical foul involves unsportsmanlike conduct that is extreme in nature, or excessive or severe contact during a dead ball. Fighting is also considered a flagrant technical foul

ETA: Actually, he is right, and I nodded. It's a technical because the ball is dead. I was reading but not taking it in.

[Bob Green]

Could someone provide a summary and/or some quotes, please. My media player wouldn't stop buffering :o:mad: .

Thanks.

Coach K said:

1.) we didn't respond/adjust to the physicality as needed

2.) praised Louisville for their tenacity. Stated they were a very talented team.

3.) praised Duke for being warriors. Said he really enjoys coaching this team. Understands why Grayson Allen responded to the charge call the way he did. Said it wasn't close...whatever close is.

4.) talked about Thornton's injury, said it will be checked out, hopefully it is just a contusion.

[JBDuke]

Could someone provide a summary and/or some quotes, please. My media player wouldn't stop buffering :o:mad: .

Thanks.

Some points from K's press conference after the game:

1. No change in Amile's status
2. While Matt warmed up, K said he couldn't "push" properly, so he never was an option during the game. However, K noted "remarkable" progress since Wednesday, and said he would hoped Matt would be available on Thursday.
3. Said he thought Derryck's shoulder was hopefully "just a contusion".
4. As noted elsewhere, he called the second half the most physical half they've been in this year. Gave credit to Louisville for playing to how the game was being called, and said that Duke wasn't able to match it, largely due to injuries and foul trouble.
5. Apparently, someone asked about if the game was called inconsistently, and he said "Way inconsistent. You can forget about all those videos that were shown. Forget about those videos."
6. Praised the team for putting themselves in a position to win it. Called them warriors, unbelievable.
7. Said "What happens to Grayson sometimes is unbelievable" Said he understood Grayson's reaction - said the play was "not close". "He's been beat up the whole season." "One of the great warriors in college basketball." "Would we like him not to have that reaction? Yes. Do I understand why he had it? Yes."
8. Said "Brandon is still young. He didn't have the game he needed to, especially with that level of physicality."
9. Asked "What were you disputing when you got the technical?" He said, "You want a list? That'll come out in my book when I'm 80."
10. Asked about Chase Jeter - said "He did fine. High level game, people were pressing. We don't practice the two bigs that much." "He did a good job."

[Stray Gator]

This was a very winnable game. Duke led the majority of the game but when they got up 13, they let up. . . .

. . .

The refs were bad, but Louisville was whistled for 3 more fouls than Duke today and Duke shot the same number of free throws as Louisville. So no disparity there. But I agree, Louisville played like thugs at times, especially when #10 elbowed Allen. He should have been ejected for that. And the constant body contact could have been called way more than it was on Louisville.

I generally prefer to avoid commenting on the officiating, but I'll weigh in here because I believe your analysis (a) is unjustly critical of Duke's players in suggesting that they "let up"; and (b) misses the mark in positing that the relative lack of disparity in the number of fouls and free throws undermines the conclusion that Duke was unfairly disadvantaged by the officiating. If you want to see where the disparity shows up in the stats, look at the advantage Louisville enjoyed in turnovers (11 to 18) and steals (8 to 5). At the 9:39 mark of the second half, when Duke's lead was narrowed to 5 points, K took a timeout. During the ensuing 5.5 minute segment from then until the technical on Grayson, which is when Duke suffered the "scoring drought," Duke was charged with 7 turnovers.

I haven't checked the game tape, but as I recall, three or four of those were travelling calls -- at least one of which was made against Grayson after he had passed the ball to Luke for a three-point shot that swished through just after the whistle sounded. Some observers might say that those calls were based on a different interpretation of the rule than was being applied at the other end of the court; and in a couple of instances, whatever motion was deemed a "travel" had been caused by a shove or hip-check from a Louisville defender. In any event, my point is that any scoring drought during that stretch was not so much a result of Duke players "letting up" as it was a consequence of not being able to even get off a shot due to the way the game was being called. In fact, Duke was not able to get off a single field goal attempt from the 10:29 mark, when Marshall made a dunk, to the 2:41 mark, when Brandon missed a jumper.

While people can argue about whether that "drought" was due to great defense by Louisville, or due to mistakes in execution by Duke, or due to officiating that applied different rules to the competing teams, I don't believe it's fair to attribute the problem to Duke players "letting up."

[devildeac]

Coach K said:

1.) we didn't respond/adjust to the physicality as needed

2.) praised Louisville for their tenacity. Stated they were a very talented team.

3.) praised Duke for being warriors. Said he really enjoys coaching this team. Understands why Grayson Allen responded to the charge call the way he did. Said it wasn't close...whatever close is.

4.) talked about Thornton's injury, said it will be checked out, hopefully it is just a contusion.


Some points from K's press conference after the game:

1. No change in Amile's status
2. While Matt warmed up, K said he couldn't "push" properly, so he never was an option during the game. However, K noted "remarkable" progress since Wednesday, and said he would hoped Matt would be available on Thursday.
3. Said he thought Derryck's shoulder was hopefully "just a contusion".
4. As noted elsewhere, he called the second half the most physical half they've been in this year. Gave credit to Louisville for playing to how the game was being called, and said that Duke wasn't able to match it, largely due to injuries and foul trouble.
5. Apparently, someone asked about if the game was called inconsistently, and he said "Way inconsistent. You can forget about all those videos that were shown. Forget about those videos."
6. Praised the team for putting themselves in a position to win it. Called them warriors, unbelievable.
7. Said "What happens to Grayson sometimes is unbelievable" Said he understood Grayson's reaction - said the play was "not close". "He's been beat up the whole season." "One of the great warriors in college basketball." "Would we like him not to have that reaction? Yes. Do I understand why he had it? Yes."
8. Said "Brandon is still young. He didn't have the game he needed to, especially with that level of physicality."
9. Asked "What were you disputing when you got the technical?" He said, "You want a list? That'll come out in my book when I'm 80."
10. Asked about Chase Jeter - said "He did fine. High level game, people were pressing. We don't practice the two bigs that much." "He did a good job."

Thank you and thank you.

I'll try not to read between the lines of some of his comments:rolleyes:, but I think I like his response to #9 the best ;) .

[dbcooper]

If you look at every thing this Duke team has had working against them over the majority of this year and they have been very remarkable and playing with a ton of heart and grit. A very young team, very exhausted players and a extremely short bench - 6 players deep and a walk on at the end of the game today - playing a top 20 team on their home court for the second time in 3 days - Yet they were in it until the end. I am so very proud of them and could not be happier with the effort they put in today. If we can ever get healthy with Matt and hopefully Amile back, we will be an extremely dangerous and efficient team. I love our effort today, I can't usually say that after a loss.

Go Duke!

DB.

[BobbyFan]

The guy was swinging as he was pulled away.

The swings were most egregious. I couldn't believe the refs missed them, which were clear on the view from behind the basket. That the swings didn't land is irrelevant - that's an automatic F2 and an ejection.

[uh_no]

The swings were most egregious. I couldn't believe the refs missed them, which were clear on the view from behind the basket. That the swings didn't land is irrelevant - that's an automatic F2 and an ejection.

flagrant fouls are only applicable during live play, which this was not.

[edunnjr]

I hate to say it but , that was the worst half of officiating ever! That being said I am proud of this team! They never quit! On to FSU!

[ChillinDuke]

Haven't gotten through the full thread yet, but two seemingly obvious issues that some posters either are missing or aren't highlighting...

1) the offense went south (read: FG drought) (a) in no small part due to extremely physical play by L'Ville and (b) without Thornton for a major stretch. Refs or no refs, the drought was absolutely not solely the result of poor Duke play.

2) the defense went south because (a) we simply couldn't afford to be too aggressive for a variety of reasons and (b) we didn't have Thornton who has turned a major corner defensively.

This was an excellent game by Duke for many reasons. A 13-point lead on the road with those 6 guys (mainly 5) against a Top 20 team is almost laughably good. It's ridiculously good. The loss, or turning of the game, was very clearly not solely, not largely, not mostly, and perhaps not even somewhat Duke's fault. They played very well. There was just no legitimate way for Duke to win.

...Yet they almost did.

- Chillin

[Bob Green]

flagrant fouls are only applicable during live play, which this was not.

You are getting hung up on folks calling for an F2, which isn't possible in a dead ball situation. The bottom line is Jaylen Johnson deserved to be ejected from the game.

[wavedukefan70s]

flagrant fouls are only applicable during live play, which this was not.

So a player can punch a opponent during stopage of play?just out of curiosity.

[ChillinDuke]

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred...making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great...but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face...But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.

Respectfully, I have to strongly disagree here. I understand your point about Grayson, just strongly strongly disagree.

Johnson, in my view, had clear intent to cause bodily harm both during and after the scrum.

It seemed almost inarguable.

- Chillin

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Thank you and thank you.

I'll try not to read between the lines of some of his comments:rolleyes:, but I think I like his response to #9 the best ;) .
He said as much as he could say about the reffing and the charge on Allen as he could without teeing up a large fine. I can't recall him talking about and/or making reference to reffing that much... ever. You can see when he begins the presser that he is absolutely seething mad. Rightly so.

[gurufrisbee]

You are getting hung up on folks calling for an F2, which isn't possible in a dead ball situation. The bottom line is Jaylen Johnson deserved to be ejected from the game.

Exactly

[wavedukefan70s]

You are getting hung up on folks calling for an F2, which isn't possible in a dead ball situation. The bottom line is Jaylen Johnson deserved to be ejected from the game.

I agree.

[NashvilleDevil]

You are getting hung up on folks calling for an F2, which isn't possible in a dead ball situation. The bottom line is Jaylen Johnson deserved to be ejected from the game.

Agree with this. He had to be restrained by the ref because he was making like Louisville's own Muhammad Ali.

[westwall]

I just read the game recap that is up on GoDuke.com. It is written from a disturbingly Louisville perspective ("courtesy of the AP"), so do NOT read it if you have high blood pressure.

[freshmanjs]

I just read the game recap that is up on GoDuke.com. It is written from a disturbingly Louisville perspective ("courtesy of the AP"), so do NOT read it if you have high blood pressure.

I don't see anything unusual or wrong with the article.

[BobbyFan]

flagrant fouls are only applicable during live play, which this was not.

This is incorrect.

An F2 can be called in either situation. Whether it occurs during play or not determines if the F2 is classified as a personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball) foul.

Regardless, my point wasn't to get caught up in technicalities (pun intended) - just stating that he should have been ejected.

[westwall]

I don't see anything unusual or wrong with the article.

Please! I did not suggest that there is anything "unusual or wrong" about the article (so don't put words in my mouth). In fact, one might consider the article "usual and fine" if one shares the Louisville perspective on today's game. Based on the many posts in this thread, I think that the great majority of Duke fans here definitely do not share that perspective, and that's why I cautioned those who have blood pressure issues against reading it. Ok?

[dukepsy1963]

Ingram was whipped like all the other guys, but he played hard as hell despite being "all thumbs" today and was doubled up on over and over....someone in front, someone in back. It's hard to be incredible every day....:(. We need not worry that he won't compensate for this bad day over and over. He has just started. Let's keep that it mind. And while I hate one and done (ex-prof), it has allowed me to see young players like Brandon up close and personal. :)

J.
________
I am constantly waiting for that call from our Iron Duke friend up here in the mountains that she has a couple of tickets. My wife and I keep bags packed and the car warmed up :D

[Newton_14]

So proud of this team! Just can't say this enough. They were easily the best team on the Floor for 28 minutes when fatigue finally bit them. Brandon was out of gas after about 10 minutes in unfortunately. It was plain to see. I know moral victories are hollow and losing sucks, but I am proud of how our guys came out today taking care of business. I thought losing Derryck, in addition to the fatigue was a huge factor in the loss as well. He has played so effectively these past two games, and losing him took away a reliable impactful player with his ball handling skills and defense, and forced us to play a kid who just isn't ready for primetime yet in Jeter, in a lineup we did not want to have out there with the game hanging in the balance.

Who was it that said losing Matt Jones was a good thing???? Do you understand now how wrong you were???? We win this game going away with a healthy Matt Jones today, and don't even get me started on the outcome if we have a healthy Amile Jefferson also!

This team has now convinced me that w/o a Healthy Amile Jefferson, we are at least the 2nd or 3rd best team in the ACC, and if they had the Amile pre-injury version, they would be THE BEST team in the ACC. They are that good.
Grayson was great all game, with strong support from MP3 and Derryck, Kennard was off offensively but solid on defense, and Brandon unfortunately, just had one of those nightmare games where you don't even analyze it. You just go Next Play and immediately forget it.

They came sooo close to going 4-0 in this nightmare stretch but fatigue and injury bug knocked them back just enough to not be able to pull it off. Props for fighting back when the wheels came off today and making it a 2 point game with a minute and change left. That took heart and fight and this team has those traits in Spades!

Rest up and heal up boys, you are going to be heard from loudly the rest of the way!

Go Duke!

[gcashwell]

Great effort today. I was very pleased with Jeter's performance.

[sagegrouse]

The charge was his 5th foul.

Yes. Grayson achieved the rare feat of six fouls!

[slower]

I agree. I would also add Hurley, Wojo and Battier as in the mix as his only competition for the title in recent years (yes, the early 1990's are still recent years to me 😀)
Kyle Freaking Singler

[dukepsy1963]

You beat me to it. The 1960-61 season was my first (I think) season as a Duke fan. As I recall that would have been Artie's sophomore season. He was one mean character. Ask Larry Brown.

I was there a number of times when we matched up (Brown and Heyman). Those times make today's antics seem tame. I remember sitting under one of the baskets and seeing (I believe) Heyman and Brown go at it (and almost the entire crowd too!). It was sickening! Hate to say it, but as a student, I was not a fan of Artie because of his behavior. Larry Brown was no saint either. But what was done in those days was often very very ugly. I am glad the young ones today don't know much about those times. They can begin their on rivalries! And hopefully clean, good natured ones.
J>
--------------
I am constantly waiting for that call from our Iron Duke friend up here in the mountains that she has a couple of tickets. My wife and I keep bags packed and the car warmed up :D

[Indoor66]

I thought that Marshall was a man out there. He rebounded and scored. We were just undermanned. The kids got beat up and the "rules" be damned.

[martydoesntfoul]

Then, by this logic, it's ok to strike a player in the face (or anywhere) AND take another swing at him as someone upthread mentioned AND wrestle with a ref after the whistle w/o an ejection. Sorry, that can't be correct, nor can you. As someone else upthread also mentioned, there's only so much a player/team/coach can take, as K's T and some of his post-games comments that have filtered back here so far seem to indicate.

devildeac: You nailed it. He swung his elbow at least two more times after connecting on the first one. If that sequence doesn't deserve an ejection, then what on earth does? Even the mainstream media agrees. Absolutely ridiculous. The more times I watch it, the angrier I get. Swofford & Co. will only serve to embarrass themselves further if this goes unpunished.

[freshmanjs]

Please! I did not suggest that there is anything "unusual or wrong" about the article (so don't put words in my mouth). In fact, one might consider the article "usual and fine" if one shares the Louisville perspective on today's game. Based on the many posts in this thread, I think that the great majority of Duke fans here definitely do not share that perspective, and that's why I cautioned those who have blood pressure issues against reading it. Ok?

Completely disagree. The article is written from neutral perspective and includes plenty about Duke. For example:


"I just let out my emotions in a way that I shouldn't have," said Allen, who had 19 points in the first half. "In that kind of situation, I have to control (myself)."

That sequence effectively left the depleted Blue Devils -- who already played without injured guard Matt Jones (ankle) and forward Amile Jefferson (foot) -- with five players for much of the final 3:55 including guard Derryck Thornton, who had left the game with an injured right shoulder earlier in the half.

Duke eventually went to reserve Nick Pagliuca after Luke Kennard fouled out with 21 seconds left. Hall of Fame coach Mike Krzyzewski even picked up a technical foul.

"The intensity and the physicality of the game did not lend itself to us," Krzyzewski said. "With injuries and foul trouble, not a good combination for us. Our kids fought their hearts out."

[lotusland]

Can the ACC review it and suspend him? I completely agree with you - there is zero chance Louisville does anything about it.

We'll see. I'm not sure Pitino has much input in such matters anymore. Louisville may have scandal fatigue. What's the real downside for the university to suspend Johnson for 1 game this season? he's not that good and Louisville has other goons they can employ for 1 game.

[devildeac]

devildeac: You nailed it. He swung his elbow at least two more times after connecting on the first one. If that sequence doesn't deserve an ejection, then what on earth does? Even the mainstream media agrees. Absolutely ridiculous. The more times I watch it, the angrier I get. Swofford & Co. will only serve to embarrass themselves further if this goes unpunished.

swofford & Co?

LOL.

[weezie]

Still no MOTM thread? Did I miss something?

[devildeac]

Still no MOTM thread? Did I miss something?

It was a 3 way tie...

[JD for Three!]

the whistle had blown. the officials ruled it was a dead-ball technical and in their explanation to the commentators explicitly stated that the whistle had already blown, and then the contact occurred...making it by rule a dead ball technical.

The officials still have the ability to eject the player, but it doesn't change the foul call, and they didn't in this case.

Flagrant fouls are only for live-ball contact.

I personally don't think ejection was warranted there. Grayson was complicit in fighting for the ball after the whistle had blown...and it looked like the contact was at least up until and including the elbow, incidental. Yeah the guy was clearly pissed, but it looked like he made contact while still trying to go for the ball.

Grayson really needs to be careful in those kind of situations. i know he gets crazy fired up, and that's great...but he found himself in a situation where his aggressiveness after the whistle blew almost got him really hurt. Obviously i'm not blaming him for getting elbowed in the face...But I think he still has to learn to reign himself in at times. getting T-ed up after getting ejected certainly didn't help us to pull it out down the stretch, either.

Your post really tells the story. Allen was "fighting for the ball". That's part of the ball tie up scenarios we see every game. But Allen was on his back on the floor. Johnson, who was standing up over him, had to make a concerted effort to elbow Allen in the face and take a couple of more shots without connecting. There is no "fighting for the ball" on his part. Just fighting.

[uh_no]

Your post really tells the story. Allen was "fighting for the ball". That's part of the ball tie up scenarios we see every game. But Allen was on his back on the floor. Johnson, who was standing up over him, had to make a concerted effort to elbow Allen in the face and take a couple of more shots without connecting. There is no "fighting for the ball" on his part. Just fighting.

not responding to you in particular,

but i've actually been half correct.....several points

1) participating in a fight is grounds for ejection regardless of the current state of play
2) the call was a "dead-ball contact technical foul"
3) a "flagrant 1" is a live ball foul
4) there are TWO flagrant 2 fouls. The one most people think of is the flagrant 2 personal foul, which is the live ball foul which is the next level of the flagrant 1 foul. there is also a "flagrant 2 technical foul" which is the next level of the dead-ball technical foul we saw today.

[weezie]

It was a 3 way tie...

Ohhhhh, of course, the Three Blind Pinheads of The Match. Good pick!

[martydoesntfoul]

swofford & Co?

LOL.
A new reality show concept perhaps...

[Furniture]

I make it a policy to not comment on refs generally.

So instead, I will just say, UL really got into Ingram's head. From the opening tip, he was their focus. Worked out well for them.

Let's get healthy for the stretch run.

Yes and Pitino confirmed it in his press conference.

[Doria]

He said, "You want a list? That'll come out in my book when I'm 80."

So, what I'm choosing to take away from this is that Coach K is confirming he'll be coaching for the next ten years :D

(Thanks for posting notes from the presser.)

[Atldukie79]

Art Heyman.

If Jaylen Johnson had elbowed Heyman like that, a dead ball technical would have been the least of his worries.

While we are at it, how can we not mention Kenny Dennard and Danny Meagher, the closest thing to a true enforcer we ever had.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I agree completely with the overall theme that the refs were horrible. Watching our guys get clobbered while trying to break the press was painful - it reminded me of the old Georgetown teams.
Given the apparent severity of Thorntons injury, I was surprised he went back in. He clearly gave us a huge lift but he also seemed to be in a lot of pain, and this could have easily been a case of winning the battle but losing the war.
Also, I know Coach K was understandably very upset but his T really hurt us. We had possession and called timeout when they got him. So we gave up two free throws (fortunately missed) but also lost possession. One can argue whether the T was justified but he should have been more careful.

[devildeac]

I can't find the actual NCAA rule and the best I can do is wiki so here goes:

"The penalty for a flagrant technical foul in NCAA and NFHS rules is immediate ejection of the offending player, plus two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team. The ejected player is also suspended during the next game played by his or her team.

For a flagrant personal foul, the throw-in spot is at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul.
For a flagrant technical foul, the throw-in spot is at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

In May of 2011, the NCAA approved rule changes to the way that flagrant fouls were handled. They are now split into two types (like the NBA categories), and there is no longer a suspension given for the next game."

[Philadukie]

Can't remember the last time I was this pleased with our guys out of a loss.

This team has forged an identity of toughness and guts. I hope they continue with it.

I'll be happy if they keep playing this way, no matter what the outcomes are.

[Newton_14]

I can't find the actual NCAA rule and the best I can do is wiki so here goes:

"The penalty for a flagrant technical foul in NCAA and NFHS rules is immediate ejection of the offending player, plus two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team. The ejected player is also suspended during the next game played by his or her team.

For a flagrant personal foul, the throw-in spot is at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul.
For a flagrant technical foul, the throw-in spot is at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

In May of 2011, the NCAA approved rule changes to the way that flagrant fouls were handled. They are now split into two types (like the NBA categories), and there is no longer a suspension given for the next game."

Thanks. Duke knows the old rule all too well thanks to a fateful afternoon in Chapel Cheat Hill. Ref sees blood... ah... that has to mean ejection from this game and suspension next game! Brilliant....

[westwall]

Completely disagree. The article is written from neutral perspective and includes plenty about Duke. For example:

Please. Don't quote only the last few paragraphs of the Louisville article, quote the first three fourths. That's where high blood pressure of real Duke fans might become a concern. You won't? Fine, that verifies my original point.

[hsheffield]

Agree with all the preceding comments. Jeter looked better than he has. Now, if we get Jeter, Jones and Jefferson up and running by tournament time, we should be in good shape.

I guess our parting line to Louisville could be "See you in the tournament. Oh.. wait."

the good things I saw today?

-Jeter had many moments in which he looked coordinated

-Thornton showed an impressive will to win

-Grayson is a stud. Perhaps he really is a terminator?

-this team has an amazing ability to never give up

-if we can play like this short-handed with 2004 FF style refs, we should be very scary when Amile and Matt are back

[devildeac]

Here's another source, FWIW:

http://www.ehow.com/list_6108900_ncaa-basketball-foul-rules.html

Couple quotes:

"A flagrant technical foul occurs when a player commits a gross violation such as fighting, returning to the game after being disqualified or excessively contacting a player after the ball is dead."

"A player is ejected from the game if she receives one flagrant technical foul."

The article mainly uses "she" but "he" is also used. I'm not sure whether this is addressing MBB, WBB or both.

[DU82]

Also, I know Coach K was understandably very upset but his T really hurt us. We had possession and called timeout when they got him. So we gave up two free throws (fortunately missed) but also lost possession. One can argue whether the T was justified but he should have been more careful.

A team no longer loses possession for a "normal" technical foul.

[devildeac]

Interesting espn box score. GA is listed as having 6 PF. Maybe the acc orifice will see fit to having one "carried over" to our next game. After all, he is the next hated Duke player :rolleyes: .

[jv001]

College basketball is fun to watch when the game can be played without so much grabbing and shoving. Louisville has some real punks on their team. Johnson is the worse and Lee is not far behind.

The game turned on the play that took Thornton out of the game. Even if a foul had been called, Derryck would have been out of the game for a long time. Without him, we had a terrible time beating the press. Then to make things worse, we had to go zone for a long stretch and to give the Cards credit, they picked it apart.

Brandon was out of control for most of the game but that had to do with fatigue, physical play by Louisville and not being ready when he was double teamed. Not only did he play bad, he seemed to have a negative posture about him for most of the game. Let's hope he learns from this game and he gets back to his normal self.

GoDuke!

[gofurman]

The goal is to get into the tourney and have everyone back and healthy.

THIS. 2-1. 1-2. Just make tourney. Get healthy. Health.

[Newton_14]

A team no longer loses possession for a "normal" technical foul.

Correct. K called the timeout after a turnover. It was not our ball. So the tech only cost us 1 point. We did not lose a possession. Same thing on Grayson's tech. He fouled out on the charge, so Louisville was getting the ball anyway. The tech just gave them two extra points at an inopportune time.

I still cant get over the guys getting it back to 66-64 after it seemed they were going to get run out of the gym when Allen found out. It just took tremendous heart and fight to get that lead back down to 2 and a legitimate shot to win despite everything that was going against them.

[uh_no]

Here's another source, FWIW:

http://www.ehow.com/list_6108900_ncaa-basketball-foul-rules.html

Couple quotes:

"A flagrant technical foul occurs when a player commits a gross violation such as fighting, returning to the game after being disqualified or excessively contacting a player after the ball is dead."

"A player is ejected from the game if she receives one flagrant technical foul."

The article mainly uses "she" but "he" is also used. I'm not sure whether this is addressing MBB, WBB or both.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf

[jv001]

Correct. K called the timeout after a turnover. It was not our ball. So the tech only cost us 1 point. We did not lose a possession. Same thing on Grayson's tech. He fouled out on the charge, so Louisville was getting the ball anyway. The tech just gave them two extra points at an inopportune time.

I still cant get over the guys getting it back to 66-64 after it seemed they were going to get run out of the gym when Allen found out. It just took tremendous heart and fight to get that lead back down to 2 and a legitimate shot to win despite everything that was going against them.

I hate to say this, but when Grayson fouled out and got the tech, I was so angry that I got my golf clubs and went to the driving range. I had to hit something seeing I could not reach Louisville's Johnson. When I got in the car, I turned the radio on and we had cut the lead to 2 points. If I known Thornton was coming back in, I would have watched the rest of the game. I can't remember the last time I got so angry at an opponent and I'm still not over it entirely. GoDuke!

[gep]

Interesting espn box score. GA is listed as having 6 PF. Maybe the acc orifice will see fit to having one "carried over" to our next game. After all, he is the next hated Duke player :rolleyes: .

I saw this in the box score... and thought I was seeing an NBA box score... :cool:

I just watched Pitino's post-game presser. At the end, someone asked him about Grayson and his toughness. He basically just repeated Grayson's name, then immediately switched to Brandon... and continued to only talk about Brandon. I wonder if this is some kind of "message" about Grayson. Whatever...

I think the next game(s), Duke will play without hesitation, and take it out on the opponents without abandon. GO DUKE!!!

[Lulu]

He said as much as he could say about the reffing and the charge on Allen as he could without teeing up a large fine. I can't recall him talking about and/or making reference to reffing that much... ever. You can see when he begins the presser that he is absolutely seething mad. Rightly so.

I want to second this. I've never seen Coach K "say" (but really just imply) so much about the officiating after a game. Even if he doesn't bring it up, if asked, he usually deflects such questions as calls not going your way just being part of the game, or how there's 40 minutes and no one play decided the outcome, etc etc... there's a whole list of typical responses. He must have taken half the presser talking about the [allowed] physicality, which was as clear a knock on officiating as I've ever seen from him, and as clear as the comments he made at the end of the pressure about there being no consistency with the videos (from context I'm assuming the officiating videos demonstrating the emphasis on freedom of movement, etc. that was supposed to be in place this year).

I'm pretty relieved that all of this is as obvious to everyone as it seemed while watching the game. Otherwise I'd be going nuts now.

[westwall]

I was there a number of times when we matched up (Brown and Heyman). Those times make today's antics seem tame. I remember sitting under one of the baskets and seeing (I believe) Heyman and Brown go at it (and almost the entire crowd too!). It was sickening! Hate to say it, but as a student, I was not a fan of Artie because of his behavior. Larry Brown was no saint either. But what was done in those days was often very very ugly. I am glad the young ones today don't know much about those times. They can begin their on rivalries! And hopefully clean, good natured ones.
J>
--------------
I am constantly waiting for that call from our Iron Duke friend up here in the mountains that she has a couple of tickets. My wife and I keep bags packed and the car warmed up :D

I was there too. You did not have to be a "fan" of Artie's to recognize his ability and sheer competitiveness, accompanied by occasional emotional outbursts, which in many ways parallel Grayson's play this year. Play was "very, very ugly" back then?? I don't agree; no more so than today.

[devildeac]

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR17.pdf

Looks like they "overlooked" the rule book on that play:

"e). Flagrant technical foul(s) (Art. 1.f
through .k. are nonapplicable toward disqualification since they result
in automatic ejection."

:mad:

[JNort]

Interesting espn box score. GA is listed as having 6 PF. Maybe the acc orifice will see fit to having one "carried over" to our next game. After all, he is the next hated Duke player :rolleyes: .

Yes, the charge was his 5th foul and then he got a tech right after which also counts as another personal. So he got 6 in a sport that only allows 5. Grayson Allen is just all kinds of good at ding things that shouldn't be possible :cool:

[hurleyfor3]

I hate to say this, but when Grayson fouled out and got the tech, I was so angry that I got my golf clubs and went to the driving range.

I went to the gym and set PRs on both bench press and deadlift.

Every boxscore I can find has Grayson with six fouls. He's so awesome he fouls out awesomely! Christian Laettner never did that. Bobby Hurley never did that. Shane never did that.

Also, Roy Williams completely railed on Doug Gottlieb today. New respect.

[DukieInKansas]

I went to the gym and set PRs on both bench press and deadlift.

Every boxscore I can find has Grayson with six fouls. He's so awesome he fouls out awesomely! Christian Laettner never did that. Bobby Hurley never did that. Shane never did that.

Also, Roy Williams completely railed on Doug Gottlieb today. New respect.

Caught that. His response reminded me of his I don't give a ... response while at KU. I think Doug might be on to something.

[Furniture]

I saw this in the box score... and thought I was seeing an NBA box score... :cool:

I just watched Pitino's post-game presser. At the end, someone asked him about Grayson and his toughness. He basically just repeated Grayson's name, then immediately switched to Brandon... and continued to only talk about Brandon. I wonder if this is some kind of "message" about Grayson. Whatever...

I think the next game(s), Duke will play without hesitation, and take it out on the opponents without abandon. GO DUKE!!!

I noticed the same thing. the only realistic thing I can think of is that he did not want to go near a conversation about Grayson's foul out or the altercation with his own player. Probably very smart.
In regards K's presser he was very complimentary about Pitino which didn't really fit with his blow by hand shake. It's all simply mind blowing! This is why we love college basketball folks!!

[Furniture]

One more thing.
Those Duke kids are probably back in their dorms tonight and thinking...
Wait a minute...we were up easily for almost 3/4 of the game. Thery weren't even close.
How did we lose?

[TruBlu]

I noticed the same thing. the only realistic thing I can think of is that he did not want to go near a conversation about Grayson's foul out or the altercation with his own player. Probably very smart.
In regards K's presser he was very complimentary about Pitino which didn't really fit with his blow by hand shake. It's all simply mind blowing! This is why we love college basketball folks!!

Could someone explain the bolded? When was there an altercation with his own player? Not trying to be snarky, I must have missed something.

[Indoor66]

As I read it, he was references the altercation between Grayson and the Louisville player - Pitino's own player.

[Henderson]

We were done in by fatigue and a short bench. Those factors neutralized our ability to counter's Louisville aggressiveness in the last 10 minutes.

As long as we are short handed, we'll see teams adopt the Louisville strategy: Run motion offense, then press full-court and get rough in the second half to take advantage of Duke's fatigue and foul trouble. And opposing coaches will be telling officials right from the start that "Grayson Allen is fouling people on every drive." Eventually they'll get a call or three.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

We were done in by fatigue and a short bench. Those factors neutralized our ability to counter's Louisville aggressiveness in the last 10 minutes.

As long as we are short handed, we'll see teams adopt the Louisville strategy: Run motion offense, then press full-court and get rough in the second half to take advantage of Duke's fatigue and foul trouble. And opposing coaches will be telling officials right from the start that "Grayson Allen is fouling people on every drive." Eventually they'll get a call or three.

Other teams may try this "strategery" that Louisville employed but I question the future effectiveness of it.

First, most of the other teams don't use the full court press as their base defense. That being the case, they won't be as adept at executing it against us as Louisville was yesterday.

Second, we were actually handling the press OK until DT went out briefly. He stays in the game, we likely hang on for the win.

Lastly, the overly physical play was allowed by the refs to continue and even escalate. I'd imagine K and Duke are letting Swofford & co. just how upset they are about how things went down yesterday. I'd be surprised if other officials follow these officials "blueprint" of allowing one team to play a completely different game than the other.

Putting this game in perspective, we faced a tough opponent on their court with their loud, angry fans who got in to the heads of the refs, tipping the scales in Louisville's favor.

Throw in the Thornton injury and Ingram's off day, and this game is, IMO, not indicative of future performance.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Louisville's gameplan worked about as Pinito envisioned. Press hard every possession, get physical underneath every time they come in the lane, and give Ingram less than 2 inches of space to work with.

All those things wear on a tired, injured, short-handed squad. Given that, the loss of a 13 point lead, Allen's meltdown, Ingram's frustrated play - the loss makes sense.

We were able to play through it for about 3/4 of the game, but that level of physicality wears on you and we didn't have the bodies to give it back.

[devilnfla]

Did anyone hear Duke Hater Donny Marshalls comments yesterday on Fox? At the conclusion of Duke/Louisville highlights they were discussing the Grayson elbow to the face and he says, they (refs) always catch the 2nd punch......implying that Grayson was at fault and took the 1st shot.

I remember Marshall hating on Duke back a few years ago at the tournament in Atlantis. I've never thought he was a great analyst and his hatred for Duke rivals Lenny Elmore.

[devilnfla]

Regarding the Louisville press, was anyone else concerned with Ingram taking his time to pick up the ball after every Louisville made basket? To me, it seemed like this allowed Louisville to set their pressure and check every Duke player.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Regarding the Louisville press, was anyone else concerned with Ingram taking his time to pick up the ball after every Louisville made basket? To me, it seemed like this allowed Louisville to set their pressure and check every Duke player.

Might have been trying to eyeball the set up before starting the five second count? Don't know, but that would be my guess.

[sagegrouse]

I went to the gym and set PRs on both bench press and deadlift.

Every boxscore I can find has Grayson with six fouls. He's so awesome he fouls out awesomely! Christian Laettner never did that. Bobby Hurley never did that. Shane never did that.

Also, Roy Williams completely railed on Doug Gottlieb today. New respect.

What's next Grayson -- a shooting percentage of 110 percent? Your fans await!

[Atldukie79]

I think it is possible that Ingram took his time picking up the ball on inbounds plays to take a breather and to keep the pace from becoming too hectic. It seemed purposeful.

[sagegrouse]

Regarding the Louisville press, was anyone else concerned with Ingram taking his time to pick up the ball after every Louisville made basket? To me, it seemed like this allowed Louisville to set their pressure and check every Duke player.


Might have been trying to eyeball the set up before starting the five second count? Don't know, but that would be my guess.


I think it is possible that Ingram took his time picking up the ball on inbounds plays to take a breather and to keep the pace from becoming too hectic. It seemed purposeful.

Duke has made odd plays for years, such as extreme hedging by big men (especially Miles and Mason), standing in the corners for long periods (Andre Dawkins), and now Brandon slow-rolling the ball on out-of-bounds plays.

I conclude they are part of the plan -- otherwise, the moves wouldn't be repeated over and over -- or the player wouldn't stay in the game. Maybe there's more at work here than ordinary mortals can comprehend?

[Indoor66]

Duke has made odd plays for years, such as extreme hedging by big men (especially Miles and Mason), standing in the corners for long periods (Andre Dawkins), and now Brandon slow-rolling the ball on out-of-bounds plays.

I conclude they are part of the plan -- otherwise, the moves wouldn't be repeated over and over -- or the player wouldn't stay in the game. Maybe there's more at work here than ordinary mortals can comprehend?

Probably as arcane as a plan to provide extra rest and generally slow down the game by a team decimated by injury. I'm not sure on that, but that is my guess. As an ordinary mortal I can only attempt the fathom of the guile of our coaching staff....

[oldnavy]

I could not be more proud of our team.

To come off such an emotional win and turn around and play such a tough and physical game within 72 hours tells me one thing... these kids are TOUGH!

As far as the refs go... I have been complaining (win or lose) about how inconsistent they are from one game to the next and also within a single game.

The officials need to become employee's of the NCAA and train in the off season as a whole and as crews. The game is too advanced to have part-time, individually contracted officials.

Spend the freaking money and make the officials FT employee's with off season training, and establish crews with a senior/experience ref as the head officials so that they can learn to call the games consistently with each other.

There will always be mistakes made no matter what, but I do believe that the inconsistency of officiating can be tightened up a great deal if some thought and effort is put into it.

Rant over.

[NSDukeFan]

Well, they were up by enough to allow for some defensive breakdowns. If they could have kept scoring (or at least getting shots without taking shots), then they could have kept the score out of reach.
I agree. Even when Thornton (quickest defensive player) was out and Jeter (who hasn't played many meaningful minutes) was in, it looked to me like the team's defense was stills solid, helped my MP3 grabbing most of the defensive rebounds.

i don't doubt it...but we can't control the officiating, only how we react to it...and our reaction for the last 10 minutes of the game was incredibly poor on the offensive end, which is unfortunate given how well the team had played and how many obstacles it had overcome.
It's true you can only control your reaction to circumstances, but I agree with Wander, I think? that you are being a bit harsh on a team that was getting bumped pretty good, but kept playing tough. The other challenge was that Thornton was basically unpressable for most of the game so when he went out a lot more energy was expended by Grayson and Ingram just getting the ball to half.


I have been watching Duke basketball for upwards of forty years.
Grayson Allen has to be the toughest and most fearless player to wear a Duke uniform during that time.
I never saw Dick Groat play, but possibly absent him, Grayson fits those specs to a tee.



I agree. I would also add Hurley, Wojo and Battier as in the mix as his only competition for the title in recent years (yes, the early 1990's are still recent years to me ��)


Art Heyman.

If Jaylen Johnson had elbowed Heyman like that, a dead ball technical would have been the least of his worries.
Good suggestions re: tough Duke players. I would like to add Singler. Grayson certainly is one tough guy.

why?

regular season: the title is pretty much off the table at this point. we'd need 5 teams to lose another game and for us to win out. ain't going to happen
NCAA seeding: I highly doubt a loss to pitt or FSU will significantly impact our seeding. both are pretty good and quite possibly tournament teams.
"momentum": This team just rolled off an incredible stretch, and has showed ridiculous toughness...I highly doubt a loss to a good team will affect them much
ACC seeding: we're sitting at the 5 seed right now, so some help is needed anyway...a loss likely puts the double bye completely out of reach...but not sure that's desperate. Note that ND and miami have tiebreakers over us.
Good summary of the team's situation and counter to the previous post. This team has certainly shown it has the talent and toughness to make a run, hopefully in both tournaments. Reminds me, I miss Duvall's contrarian points of view.

Not a criticism, but a suggestion...

It appeared to me Ingram was operating too far from the basket. It also appears Thornton has become more reliable.

I'd like to see a set where Kennard is at 3-pt line, left baseline corner. Grayson the same but right corner. Plumlee in his baseline pocket area. Put Ingram on either elbow and have him and Thornton run a two-man game, PNR. If Thornton keeps it around the screen he'll have 4 options (floater, drop to Plums, or kick to corners for 3's. If Ingram posts at the elbow it's an easy entry pass and let him go to work. Ingram could also bring a screen to the 3-pt line and nail a 3 on the pop.

I felt for the first time this year we didn't get Ingram the ball at the elbow when a quicker guy was guarding him. Maybe it was being tired, but he looked uncomfortable with his dribble all day. I didn't notice if the guy guarding him was as tall, but it appeared everyone guarding him was quick enough to fluster him.

That's an interesting suggestion as I believe Ingram had a guard or wing on him most of the game. Maybe getting him the ball at the elbow would've made it harder for him to be defended.

[dyedwab]

Re: officiating

1) In my nearly 30 years of following Duke basketball, I'm not sure I've ever seen Coach K directly reference officiating as much as he has this year, and especially after today's game. It is notable, particularly since, imho, the Duke Basketball program is both aware of and sensitive to the perception "Duke gets all the calls"

2) Officiating can effect the game in two ways. The first way is by missed/non/bad individual calls, which, while they make fans and teams angry, generally even out over the course of a game/season It's the old "it shouldn't have been left to the refs decided the game" cliche. But the 2nd way, is how the refs decide to call a game. Making the logical assumption that there are far more calls the refs could make then the do make in every single game, what the refs decide to call and let go has a great deal of impact in any game. Yesterday was a prime example - the refs decided that pver-the-top physically play was going to be allowed, particularly in the 2nd half. So, yeah, it wasn't "we lost because of the refs". It was "the refs allowed a style of play that particularly disadvantaged us, and didn't have to be that way.

3) There is a connection between our offensive drought and the Louisville's physical play. And it was exacerbated by our short rotation, our foul trouble, and our not reacting to it as well as we should have

4) Part of our reaction was either that the game was allowed to become more physical, or the overall physicality of the game finally showed an effect on our tired and shorthanded team.

5) If you were Louisville playing Duke yesterday, your defensive strategy should have been premised on having their already very physical defense play even more physically and hope it wore out a shorthanded Duke team, and hope that officiating allows that. That strategy worked yesterday.

6) Freedom of Movement rules, as other have said, have been honored mostly in the breach since conference play started.

[FerryFor50]

I think it is possible that Ingram took his time picking up the ball on inbounds plays to take a breather and to keep the pace from becoming too hectic. It seemed purposeful.

Definitely was by design. 5 second count doesn't start until you pick the ball up. They wanted to set up the inbounds play before the 5 count could start.

[fgb]

why?

regular season: the title is pretty much off the table at this point. we'd need 5 teams to lose another game and for us to win out. ain't going to happen
NCAA seeding: I highly doubt a loss to pitt or FSU will significantly impact our seeding. both are pretty good and quite possibly tournament teams.
"momentum": This team just rolled off an incredible stretch, and has showed ridiculous toughness...I highly doubt a loss to a good team will affect them much
ACC seeding: we're sitting at the 5 seed right now, so some help is needed anyway...a loss likely puts the double bye completely out of reach...but not sure that's desperate. Note that ND and miami have tiebreakers over us.

nicely explained. i was thinking about the acc tournament in particular; on the one hand, with seemingly the shortest bench in history, the double bye would be a huge help in terms of resting befor the ncaas (as would rest be the silver lining in the unfortunate case of an early acc exit). on the other hand, if we are fortunate enough to get amile back this season, then it's possible that the longer path to the acc finals, if we get there, could be hugely beneficial as far as reestablishing our chemistry with him in the lineup.

[jdc75]

I think it is possible that Ingram took his time picking up the ball on inbounds plays to take a breather and to keep the pace from becoming too hectic. It seemed purposeful.

This makes sense I guess.
But I would rather catch a breather after the ball is across the half court line than while they are setting up their press. In my experience the press was always much easier to beat by advancing the ball quickly after a made basket.
I was taught in all levels of organized ball all the way through high school that the first step to beating the press is to inbound the ball quickly before they have a chance to get their press and traps fully set up. Often with quick passing up the court there will be a numbers advantage on a fast break or a pass available over the top of the press which can demoralize a pressing team. To me, sitting and waiting to inbound the ball seems to play right into the hands of the defense. But who am I to question K's strategies. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know.


Speaking of the press. One thing that has always driven me mad is how much more physicality is allowed by college officials when a team decides to press. Yesterday was absurd. All sorts of body checking, arm barring, pushing and shoving being done by Louisville on and off the ball, but especially once the double team was set on the man with the ball. It's ridiculous to me. No matter who is doing it. Pitino's teams are among the worst imo.
Sometimes I think the refs get caught up in playing for the roar of the crowd and seeing a team make a dramatic comeback at the expense of the most basic rules of contact.


It is so fun to watch this team develop under K's leadership. What a bunch of warriors. So proud to be a fan of this team.

[dyedwab]

From Coach K's post-game presser

"It's a different Duke team than last year or (Christian) Laettner or (JJ) Redick or Grant Hill, but it's a damn good Duke team. And it's a team. And it's a team that fights like hell together. I'm proud of that"

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article61492422.html#storylink=cpy

I don't want this quote to be overlooked, because Coach was not saying this early this season. He was talking about how they had a chance to be pretty good, or that they weren't very good yet.

The last few games, IMHO, have seen this team prove itself in the eyes of Coach K.

[NSDukeFan]

Some points from K's press conference after the game:

1. No change in Amile's status
2. While Matt warmed up, K said he couldn't "push" properly, so he never was an option during the game. However, K noted "remarkable" progress since Wednesday, and said he would hoped Matt would be available on Thursday.
3. Said he thought Derryck's shoulder was hopefully "just a contusion".
4. As noted elsewhere, he called the second half the most physical half they've been in this year. Gave credit to Louisville for playing to how the game was being called, and said that Duke wasn't able to match it, largely due to injuries and foul trouble.
5. Apparently, someone asked about if the game was called inconsistently, and he said "Way inconsistent. You can forget about all those videos that were shown. Forget about those videos."
6. Praised the team for putting themselves in a position to win it. Called them warriors, unbelievable.
7. Said "What happens to Grayson sometimes is unbelievable" Said he understood Grayson's reaction - said the play was "not close". "He's been beat up the whole season." "One of the great warriors in college basketball." "Would we like him not to have that reaction? Yes. Do I understand why he had it? Yes."
8. Said "Brandon is still young. He didn't have the game he needed to, especially with that level of physicality."
9. Asked "What were you disputing when you got the technical?" He said, "You want a list? That'll come out in my book when I'm 80."
10. Asked about Chase Jeter - said "He did fine. High level game, people were pressing. We don't practice the two bigs that much." "He did a good job."
I echo devildeac's thanks for sharing those very good quotes.

I generally prefer to avoid commenting on the officiating, but I'll weigh in here because I believe your analysis (a) is unjustly critical of Duke's players in suggesting that they "let up"; and (b) misses the mark in positing that the relative lack of disparity in the number of fouls and free throws undermines the conclusion that Duke was unfairly disadvantaged by the officiating. If you want to see where the disparity shows up in the stats, look at the advantage Louisville enjoyed in turnovers (11 to 18) and steals (8 to 5). At the 9:39 mark of the second half, when Duke's lead was narrowed to 5 points, K took a timeout. During the ensuing 5.5 minute segment from then until the technical on Grayson, which is when Duke suffered the "scoring drought," Duke was charged with 7 turnovers.

I haven't checked the game tape, but as I recall, three or four of those were travelling calls -- at least one of which was made against Grayson after he had passed the ball to Luke for a three-point shot that swished through just after the whistle sounded. Some observers might say that those calls were based on a different interpretation of the rule than was being applied at the other end of the court; and in a couple of instances, whatever motion was deemed a "travel" had been caused by a shove or hip-check from a Louisville defender. In any event, my point is that any scoring drought during that stretch was not so much a result of Duke players "letting up" as it was a consequence of not being able to even get off a shot due to the way the game was being called. In fact, Duke was not able to get off a single field goal attempt from the 10:29 mark, when Marshall made a dunk, to the 2:41 mark, when Brandon missed a jumper.

While people can argue about whether that "drought" was due to great defense by Louisville, or due to mistakes in execution by Duke, or due to officiating that applied different rules to the competing teams, I don't believe it's fair to attribute the problem to Duke players "letting up."
Nicely said.

Haven't gotten through the full thread yet, but two seemingly obvious issues that some posters either are missing or aren't highlighting...

1) the offense went south (read: FG drought) (a) in no small part due to extremely physical play by L'Ville and (b) without Thornton for a major stretch. Refs or no refs, the drought was absolutely not solely the result of poor Duke play.

2) the defense went south because (a) we simply couldn't afford to be too aggressive for a variety of reasons and (b) we didn't have Thornton who has turned a major corner defensively.

This was an excellent game by Duke for many reasons. A 13-point lead on the road with those 6 guys (mainly 5) against a Top 20 team is almost laughably good. It's ridiculously good. The loss, or turning of the game, was very clearly not solely, not largely, not mostly, and perhaps not even somewhat Duke's fault. They played very well. There was just no legitimate way for Duke to win.

...Yet they almost did.

- Chillin
I take more positive about this team and these guys than negative,, for sure. A bunch (small bunch) of warriors.



Great effort today. I was very pleased with Jeter's performance.
That was another positive from the game. Jeter looked like he belonged. Hugely encouraging.

Kyle Freaking Singler
I was slower than slower posting this.

[NSDukeFan]

Other teams may try this "strategery" that Louisville employed but I question the future effectiveness of it.

First, most of the other teams don't use the full court press as their base defense. That being the case, they won't be as adept at executing it against us as Louisville was yesterday.

Second, we were actually handling the press OK until DT went out briefly. He stays in the game, we likely hang on for the win.

Lastly, the overly physical play was allowed by the refs to continue and even escalate. I'd imagine K and Duke are letting Swofford & co. just how upset they are about how things went down yesterday. I'd be surprised if other officials follow these officials "blueprint" of allowing one team to play a completely different game than the other.

Putting this game in perspective, we faced a tough opponent on their court with their loud, angry fans who got in to the heads of the refs, tipping the scales in Louisville's favor.

Throw in the Thornton injury and Ingram's off day, and this game is, IMO, not indicative of future performance.
I agree that it would be hard to emulate Louisville 's strategy as they are one of the, if not the, best pressure teams in the country, which is great preparation for Duke for the tournament. They will not see better full court pressure, or a better 2-3 zone courtesy of Syracuse, or more long term cheating, sorry couldn't resist, than they will in conference play. I am so impressed with Thornton.

[plimnko]

That was another positive from the game. Jeter looked like he belonged. Hugely encouraging

the refs are the ones that didn't look like they belonged. i REALLY hate blaming the refs, but i'm not sure i was watching the same game they were.

[WillJ]

Good reading on this thread. My $.02:

I wish we (meaning all basketball fans) would be a little less quick to judge players on the basis of one or two reflex plays - it's an emotional, aggressive game, and these are young guys learning how to manage their emotions. That goes for both Duke and non-Duke players.
I'm feeling pretty good about our team if we get all our injured players back - as in, I think we have something like a 5% chance to win the national title.
If we win this year, given that we won last year and that our best player (or at least one of our top two) is an aggressive white guy, the Duke hatred (haterade?) tsunami will demolish all records.

[Furniture]

It was impulse. Not by accident!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2618278-dukes-grayson-allen-takes-elbow-to-face-fighting-for-loose-ball-vs-louisville?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national%3Fis_shared%3Dtrue?is_shared=true

[bluenorth]

I know that the officiating has been well covered, but I can't resist a couple of more comments. First, referees past a certain level are taught that in addition to calling the fouls and violations, they must "game manage". This means that when they see a rule being broken, they also have to decide if an advantage was gained or not, and therefore whether to blow the whistle or not. That was horribly absent from this game. The Louisville press could have been called for a foul almost every time. They weren't, so advantage to Louisville. Second, they are told to be "game aware". This means that they should know which players are in foul trouble late in the game. If it's a star player in a close game, the common referee wisdom is that he needs to commit an obvious, no leeway foul to ring up his fifth. Allen's fifth foul was nowhere close to that. Refs are also taught that when there's a "train-wreck" (ie. bodies went flying), they have to call something. That should have been the Louisville player who was not set when Allen made contact.

This crew will have a lot of explaining to do when their supervisor goes over the game tape. In particular, the ref with the white hair (don't know his name) did not have a good game, and may not see a top game for a week or two. Sorry for the rant; now I have to go and officiate three games this afternoon!

[wavedukefan70s]

http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/duke-blue-devils-grayson-allen-elbow-technical-foul-louisville-cardinals-jaylen-johnson-022016
Another article.

[fogey]

I know that the officiating has been well covered, but I can't resist a couple of more comments. First, referees past a certain level are taught that in addition to calling the fouls and violations, they must "game manage". This means that when they see a rule being broken, they also have to decide if an advantage was gained or not, and therefore whether to blow the whistle or not. That was horribly absent from this game. The Louisville press could have been called for a foul almost every time. They weren't, so advantage to Louisville. Second, they are told to be "game aware". This means that they should know which players are in foul trouble late in the game. If it's a star player in a close game, the common referee wisdom is that he needs to commit an obvious, no leeway foul to ring up his fifth. Allen's fifth foul was nowhere close to that. Refs are also taught that when there's a "train-wreck" (ie. bodies went flying), they have to call something. That should have been the Louisville player who was not set when Allen made contact.

This crew will have a lot of explaining to do when their supervisor goes over the game tape. In particular, the ref with the white hair (don't know his name) did not have a good game, and may not see a top game for a week or two. Sorry for the rant; now I have to go and officiate three games this afternoon!

I don't doubt that you are correct, but what a bunch of garbage. I know this has been the subject of lengthy discussion on other threads over time, but it galls me to no end. As in baseball with umpires each "having their own strike zone", giving these egocentric refs who are "past a certain level" the discretion to selectively enforce the rules corrupts the integrity of the game. A foul is a foul, regardless of when committed or by whom. JUST CALL THE GAME, do NOT legislate. Ignore the crowd. These people are paid well to referee, and should do so honestly.

[wavedukefan70s]

I know that the officiating has been well covered, but I can't resist a couple of more comments. First, referees past a certain level are taught that in addition to calling the fouls and violations, they must "game manage". This means that when they see a rule being broken, they also have to decide if an advantage was gained or not, and therefore whether to blow the whistle or not. That was horribly absent from this game. The Louisville press could have been called for a foul almost every time. They weren't, so advantage to Louisville. Second, they are told to be "game aware". This means that they should know which players are in foul trouble late in the game. If it's a star player in a close game, the common referee wisdom is that he needs to commit an obvious, no leeway foul to ring up his fifth. Allen's fifth foul was nowhere close to that. Refs are also taught that when there's a "train-wreck" (ie. bodies went flying), they have to call something. That should have been the Louisville player who was not set when Allen made contact.

This crew will have a lot of explaining to do when their supervisor goes over the game tape. In particular, the ref with the white hair (don't know his name) did not have a good game, and may not see a top game for a week or two. Sorry for the rant; now I have to go and officiate three games this afternoon!

I see what you are saying.like not calling holding in football unkess it directly effects the play.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't doubt that you are correct, but what a bunch of garbage. I know this has been the subject of lengthy discussion on other threads over time, but it galls me to no end. As in baseball with umpires each "having their own strike zone", giving these egocentric refs who are "past a certain level" the discretion to selectively enforce the rules corrupts the integrity of the game. A foul is a foul, regardless of when committed or by whom. JUST CALL THE GAME, do NOT legislate. Ignore the crowd. These people are paid well to referee, and should do so honestly.

Well, that's a fine sentiment, but clearly refs do have their own "strike zones." Some call the game closer than others. Some point their attention at different violations. This is human nature.

I admit my general attitude towards referees is not as antagonistic as many here, but there are two things refs can do to get me fired up-

- Being inconsistent with fouls. If a ref has a very liberal "charge" whistle that tends to give the advantage to the defense, I am fine with that. IF it is applied the same way to both teams throughout the game. If it is a foul two minutes into the game against Team A, it ought to be a foul with two minutes left against Team B. Teams ought to be able to make necessary adjustment to the refs with the expectation of equitable enforcement.

- Egregious bad calls. Honestly, my bar for this is lower than most. Referees make a lot of calls on the fly, replay has its limitations, and everyone on the court is human. The only game deciding horrible call I can remember in recent Duke lore was last year on the football field.

Refs catch a lot of flack for their imperfections and I suppose that's their job. We dish out a lot, and that's our role as fans.

[FerryFor50]

This makes sense I guess.
But I would rather catch a breather after the ball is across the half court line than while they are setting up their press. In my experience the press was always much easier to beat by advancing the ball quickly after a made basket.
I was taught in all levels of organized ball all the way through high school that the first step to beating the press is to inbound the ball quickly before they have a chance to get their press and traps fully set up. Often with quick passing up the court there will be a numbers advantage on a fast break or a pass available over the top of the press which can demoralize a pressing team. To me, sitting and waiting to inbound the ball seems to play right into the hands of the defense. But who am I to question K's strategies. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know.


Speaking of the press. One thing that has always driven me mad is how much more physicality is allowed by college officials when a team decides to press. Yesterday was absurd. All sorts of body checking, arm barring, pushing and shoving being done by Louisville on and off the ball, but especially once the double team was set on the man with the ball. It's ridiculous to me. No matter who is doing it. Pitino's teams are among the worst imo.
Sometimes I think the refs get caught up in playing for the roar of the crowd and seeing a team make a dramatic comeback at the expense of the most basic rules of contact.


It is so fun to watch this team develop under K's leadership. What a bunch of warriors. So proud to be a fan of this team.

One thing I noticed was Lville was often hitting the ball after it went through the basket, which made Duke have to chase the ball down while Lville could get set.

In the NBA, you can't touch the ball once it's through the basket. Maybe that should be implemented in the NCAA too.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

One thing I noticed was Lville was often hitting the ball after it went through the basket, which made Duke have to chase the ball down while Lville could get set.

In the NBA, you can't touch the ball once it's through the basket. Maybe that should be implemented in the NCAA too.

I believe Laettner did that regularly

[FerryFor50]

I believe Laettner did that regularly

Perhaps, but was Duke getting a major advantage as a full court press team?

[freshmanjs]

Perhaps, but was Duke getting a major advantage as a full court press team?

I doubt that anyone except Duke fans thinks that the effectiveness of Louisville's press in spurring an exciting comeback is a problem that needs to be solved.

[FerryFor50]

I doubt that anyone except Duke fans thinks that the effectiveness of Louisville's press in spurring an exciting comeback is a problem that needs to be solved.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's a pretty lame way to gain an advantage.

[Wander]

Perhaps, but was Duke getting a major advantage as a full court press team?

I'm pretty sure Duke has done a similar thing to UNC in the past, though the intention was to slow down a fast break rather than set up a press. Duke players would take the ball after scoring a basket and hand it to the referee, rather than let the UNC inbounder immediately directly get it. I've never seen it written about, but I noticed it as so consistent in one Duke-UNC game in Cameron a few years ago that I think it must have been intentional. I have no idea if this is a common thing in basketball, but I thought it was sort of clever.

[FerryFor50]

I'm pretty sure Duke has done a similar thing to UNC in the past, though the intention was to slow down a fast break rather than set up a press. Duke players would take the ball after scoring a basket and hand it to the referee, rather than let the UNC inbounder immediately directly get it. I've never seen it written about, but I noticed it as so consistent in one Duke-UNC game in Cameron a few years ago that I think it must have been intentional. I have no idea if this is a common thing in basketball, but I thought it was sort of clever.

I think it needs to stop, but at least they weren't batting the ball into the people sitting at the baseline.

I think the NBA went the route of outlawing it to speed up games and make offense flow better.

[-jk]

In theory, NCAA rules don't allow hitting the ball after it goes through the net, either. First time is a delay of game warning, second time is a T.


Rule 4. Section 10. Delay

Art. 1. A delay is any action that impedes the progress or continuity of the game. Such actions include, but are not limited to:

a. Failure to supply scorers with data per Rule 3-4.1 (See Rule 10-2.2);
b. Consuming a full minute by not being ready when it is time to start either half or any extra period (See Rule 10-2.5.a);
c. Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly made live or by preventing continuous play, such as but not limited to, followers or bench personnel entering the playing court before player activity has been terminated. When the delay does not interfere with play, it shall be ignored, and play shall be continued or be resumed at the point of interruption (See Rule 10-2.8.d and Rule 10-4.2.h);
d. Repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly put into play, such as delaying the administration of a throwin or free throw by engaging in a team huddle anywhere on the playing court (See Rule 10-2.5.b);
e. Failure to have the court ready for play after the final horn to end any timeout (See Rule 10-2.5.c);
f. Attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown (See Rule 10-4.1.l).
g. Delaying the game by failing to resume play immediately following the second warning horn indicating the end of a timeout or when a disqualified or injured player must be replaced. See Rule 10-4.2.g

Art. 2. One team warning shall be given for each of the delays in Rule 4-10.1.d through g Each warning shall be reported to the official scorer and recorded in the scorebook. Thereafter, a technical foul shall be assessed for the delay that has previously received a team warning.

-jk

[DU82]

Definitely was by design. 5 second count doesn't start until you pick the ball up. They wanted to set up the inbounds play before the 5 count could start.

It depends on the refs and if they think the inbounding team is intentionally stalling. I noticed a couple of times the ref starting the five count before Brandon actually had the ball in his hands, while he was batting the ball towards out-of-bounds. I think this is a reasonable call by the refs in that case. Similar to putting the ball down on dead ball inbounds plays if the team/inbounder are (intentionally) slow to getting to the ball.

Regarding Johnson's elbow, while the call was correct, I am probably in the minority here in thinking that it was not intentional. It appears to me that he was raking at the ball, trying to free it (as was Grayson) and at one point his raking brought his elbow back in the wrong place.

(I'm also of the opinion that Gerald Henderson did not intentionally hurt Hansbrough, but was determined to not let him score on that rebound.)

[DU82]

I believe Laettner did that regularly

And was T'd up for it at least once, IIRC at the away Wake game that we lost on the errant Grant Hill to Laettner full court pass.

[devildeac]

I believe Laettner did that regularly


Perhaps, but was Duke getting a major advantage as a full court press team?

He may have done it regularly until the acc orifice made it a "point of emphasis" in 1991 or 1992. He did it during the Duke-WFU game at Wake that year and was promptly T'ed up for it, even though he tapped (yes, I did type "tapped";)) the ball toward a WFU player. Very shortly thereafter, Wake did the same thing. Result? Yep, you guessed it. No call. K was pissed. It's buried somewhere in Season Is A Lifetime. I have no idea what the rule is now.

Edit: I see -jk quoted the rules. Thanks.

Second edit: I see DU82 remembered the incident, too. I just embellished it (truthfully, from my recollection from the book).

[devildeac]

It depends on the refs and if they think the inbounding team is intentionally stalling. I noticed a couple of times the ref starting the five count before Brandon actually had the ball in his hands, while he was batting the ball towards out-of-bounds. I think this is a reasonable call by the refs in that case. Similar to putting the ball down on dead ball inbounds plays if the team/inbounder are (intentionally) slow to getting to the ball.

Regarding Johnson's elbow, while the call was correct, I am probably in the minority here in thinking that it was not intentional. It appears to me that he was raking at the ball, trying to free it (as was Grayson) and at one point his raking brought his elbow back in the wrong place.

(I'm also of the opinion that Gerald Henderson did not intentionally hurt Hansbrough, but was determined to not let him score on that rebound.)

Except, IIRC, his elbow was moving forward, not backward, the normal motion one would make trying to wrest the ball from another player.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Perhaps, but was Duke getting a major advantage as a full court press team?

Do you really think Laettner would have done it if it weren't for an advantage?

[Karl Beem]

It depends on the refs and if they think the inbounding team is intentionally stalling. I noticed a couple of times the ref starting the five count before Brandon actually had the ball in his hands, while he was batting the ball towards out-of-bounds. I think this is a reasonable call by the refs in that case. Similar to putting the ball down on dead ball inbounds plays if the team/inbounder are (intentionally) slow to getting to the ball.

Regarding Johnson's elbow, while the call was correct, I am probably in the minority here in thinking that it was not intentional. It appears to me that he was raking at the ball, trying to free it (as was Grayson) and at one point his raking brought his elbow back in the wrong place.

(I'm also of the opinion that Gerald Henderson did not intentionally hurt Hansbrough, but was determined to not let him score on that rebound.)

Johnson has admitted that it was intentional.

[TruBlu]

Surprisingly, there have been no trolls pointing out Grayson's obvious fake head snap, since replays showed that Johnson's elbow missed Grayson's mouth by a good 6 inches.:rolleyes:

[Billy Dat]

I was unable to watch the game until this morning when I already knew the outcome and the basics of what had happened. It is certainly a less emotional experience.

In terms of the Louisville strategy, it shows me the difference between Roy and Pitino. We may not agree with Pitino's approach, but it was smart. Even if the game was called close, he was wagering on his depth to carry the day and therefore going with his advantage. That was the most intense game of the year by far, from the opening tip. We really got nothing easy on offense and our hot 3 point shooting served us well. But, we really had to drive and kick, a lot of our usual action - the sideline hand-offs, the elbow hand-offs, etc. - were squashed by Louisville's physical defense. I thought winning away would be very hard because I figured Pitino would have the right game plan for our limited personnel. And yet, we nearly pulled it off...

...because Grayson Allen continues to play like a guy who wants his number in the rafters. As we have said many times, the days of retired jerseys are probably over because if a kid is that good, he usually leaves after 1-2 years. I know it sounds like hyperbole, but Allen's combination of offensive production, unyielding motor, special-teams-cover-man disregard for bodily harm and seeming affinity for contact and pugnacious defense of "the Duke blue line" is all-timey. As stated earlier, that was as amped up and contentious an atmosphere as exists in college hoops and he was more than game, he seemed energized by it. He and his coach seem cut of the same cloth. Both are so competitive that they basically have alter egos in the heat of battle - which is why it is no surprise that quiet and shy Grayson can curse in a refs face or that K can give Pitino a blow by in the handshake line but then praise him in the presser when he's cooled down a little. Anyway, this Grayson kid is something special. Of the court, he's a choir boy. On the court, he's what K nicknamed him last year, the best possible meaning of a 7 letter word for an anus.

I echo all the praise about Derryck. For a freshman point guard, the was the lion's den and he did GREAT. I am getting sick of hearing "and Duke is doing all of this without a point guard". That is bs. Derryck Thornton is our point guard and he has earned the title in ACC play.

Marshall continues to be a revelation. I am done judging him based on what he used to be. He is, objectively, a legit starting center for a ranked team. How about the press break where he faked baseline, sprinted for the open end of the court, caught the ball around the 3 point line and 2 dribble flushed it? WTF? How about how consistently he finishes around the rim from all kinds of angles? The guy is fantastic.

BI obviously had a bad game, and that Pitino strategy was clearly meant to mess with him the most. He couldn't turn the corner on his drive and the brought that aggressive double as soon as he started his drive so that when he spun, he was trapped and he must have walked 3-4 times just from that kind of action. Per all the comments about in-bounding the ball, he rushed once or twice early and turned the ball over was I was happy for him to take his time a little.

During the decisive run, Louisville scored so many darned times that they were always getting that press set. I just looked at the game log and from 10 minutes left to 4 minutes left, Louisville scored on 10 of 11 possessions. Many of those were second chance points. That killed us.

I am as full of admiration for this team as everyone else posting about their toughness and fight and all the rest. I am also excited that Matt should/will be back on Thursday. My primary concern is whether or not they can keep this level of intensity up or are they going to hit a collective wall. Was going 3-1 in this very tough stretch a sign of what we are going to see moving forward, or a Pyrrhic victory that will leave us spent, fuel tank empty ala 2007?

I am going with the former because of Mr. Allen. He's sprinting out front, brave and heedless, and until someone can slow his roll, I am not going to question where he can lead us.

[FerryFor50]

Do you really think Laettner would have done it if it weren't for an advantage?

I'm going to stay consistent - just because Laettner did it doesn't make it right.

[DU82]

Johnson has admitted that it was intentional.

I haven't read that (not that I've been lurking on UL sites.) Source?

Edit, just saw the BleacherReport link.

[jdc75]

One thing I noticed was Lville was often hitting the ball after it went through the basket, which made Duke have to chase the ball down while Lville could get set.

In the NBA, you can't touch the ball once it's through the basket. Maybe that should be implemented in the NCAA too.



Good point. I didn't notice it while it was happening. The NBA rule makes a lot of sense.

[GGLC]

Johnson has admitted that it was intentional.

This makes me livid.

[uh_no]

This makes me livid.

will the acc take action? doubtful.

[stedge]

Take action? Hell, press charges.

[Indoor66]

Take action? Hell, press charges.

Assault with intent to do bodily harm is serious stuff. :mad: