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moonpie23
02-18-2016, 08:24 AM
Could it be possible that roy just wants to avoid the responsibility of drawing up "the winning play"? when he just lets the team "play through it", it's ALL on them.......if he DOES call a TO, then, if they don't succeed, it's on HIM...

Sixthman
02-18-2016, 08:31 AM
Could it be possible that roy just wants to avoid the responsibility of drawing up "the winning play"? when he just lets the team "play through it", it's ALL on them....if he DOES call a TO, then, if they don't succeed, it's on HIM...

Then he gets to use his favorite line "they just didn't execute and it's my fault". Wash that bus before you put it in the garage.

Henderson
02-18-2016, 08:32 AM
I dunno. Roy talked as if this was on him anyway.

According to Roy, Deano taught him that if the team has a last shot opportunity with more than 7 seconds, it should attack rather than call time out, to prevent the defense from getting set.

Problem is: With 20 seconds or so left, when it was time for that TO/no-TO call, the Duke defense was already back and pretty well set. Seems more likely that Roy didn't have a plan and punted to his team.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-18-2016, 08:32 AM
Could it be possible that roy just wants to avoid the responsibility of drawing up "the winning play"? when he just lets the team "play through it", it's ALL on them...if he DOES call a TO, then, if they don't succeed, it's on HIM...
I don't know. If it really was Roy worrying about Roy, you would think the opposite... call a TO, set up a play, if they don't execute it then it's on the players. By not calling a TO, it really is on him b/c he didn't lean in and help his players when he clearly should have. He left them hanging. It seems to be more on his shoulders by not calling a TO.

I'm not sure there is much to theorize about here. Roy is good coach but not a great coach and doesn't make good decisions under pressure.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-18-2016, 08:33 AM
I thought he gets to redeem them for cases of Coca Cola

wilson
02-18-2016, 08:38 AM
According to Roy, Deano taught him that if the team has a last shot opportunity with more than 7 seconds, it should attack rather than call time out, to prevent the defense from getting set.To me, this is the crux of why Roy is a good, but not great coach. In a game as complex and fast-moving as basketball, nobody should ever teach anyone to do exactly the same thing in any game situation with x amount of time left on the clock. Last night was another of those nights when K distinguished himself by adjusting to both his personnel and the situation. He has done this throughout his career, and won titles with teams playing vastly different styles (sometimes, the same team playing vastly different styles within the same season, a la 2001 pre- & post-Boozer injury). Roy does not adjust well on a season-long basis (remember how long it took him to bench Larry Drew II?), nor does he respond particularly well to in-game ebbs and flows. To say that you should automatically do something just because you have the ball with however many seconds left, irrespective of your players' abilities, the opponent's abilities, and the circumstances of the individual game, just embodies Roy's short-sighted and ultimately limited thinking to me.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-18-2016, 08:46 AM
By the way, someone really should go over to IC and start a "Roy Deserves Our Support, Let's Keep Him" thread.

Sixthman
02-18-2016, 08:51 AM
By the way, someone really should go over to IC and start a "Roy Deserves Our Support, Let's Keep Him" thread.


This is the post of the day!

mullslaw6383
02-18-2016, 08:53 AM
From a coaching perspective, I thought it was the right move to not call timeout at first in my opinion. They got into the front court, kind of made it appear that they were going to attack and even got it to Jackson in the middle of the lane at about the ACC logo. But we did a great job of picking up and making them kick the ball out to the perimeter and not penetrate for an easy basket. At that point, conventional wisdom would be to call your timeout and draw something up to get it to one of your best players. I believe there was about 8 seconds or so remaining when Jackson was cut off in the lane and then kicked it out. There was plenty of time left, had they called timeout, to draw up a play and get a better look than what they got. Sure glad we have K and they have Roy, and it ended with a Duke W!!!

weezie
02-18-2016, 09:06 AM
...According to Roy, Deano taught him that if the team has a last shot opportunity with more than 7 seconds, it should attack rather than call time out, to prevent the defense from getting set....Seems more likely that Roy didn't have a plan and punted to his team.

Exactly. Or, maybe Roy isn't that great an in-game coach, pretty good recruiter but doesn't really develop the talent. He defers to his players too much and they panicked.

Question, has any player ever called a time out (not a mistaken one like Webber) without the coach calling it first? Taking the reigns in their own hands as in noisy football stadiums?

I'm enjoying the fantasy that B. Johnson is wishing he'd spent less time hanging and clowning on the basket and more time getting back on defense.

wsb3
02-18-2016, 09:08 AM
By the way, someone really should go over to IC and start a "Roy Deserves Our Support, Let's Keep Him" thread.

I took a peek at IC & there are so many threads I did not know where to begin so I exited quickly.. I know this is no revelation but those people are "certifiably insane."

But I guess one more can't hurt. :)

weezie
02-18-2016, 09:09 AM
But all the threads over there are basically the same anyway. "I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this." stinks etc etc etc

Haha, I didn't know that spelling of Duke was a wanker trigger!

whereinthehellami
02-18-2016, 09:12 AM
I think against Duke in particular, Roy likes to think he is exploiting Dukes' depth by not calling TOs and giving the tired Duke players time to rest.

I don't see any possible defense of not calling a TO at the end. You need to coach by feel period. Everyone, UNC fans, Duke fans, and commentators could feel that UNC was and had been out of sorts. Why would you not regroup? He totally handicapped his team. Thanks Roy!

OldPhiKap
02-18-2016, 09:16 AM
UNC was up 68-60 with about 2:16 to go (IIRC). We finished on a 14-5 run.

Roy's problem wasn't the failure to call a TO in the last sequence IMO. It was:

1. Not calling a TO to stop our run; break our rhythm; set a defense; run a play; remind them to go inside against a defender with four fouls; etc. at all in that stretch.

2. Not have the ball in Brice Johnson's hands at the end of that game.

wsb3
02-18-2016, 09:21 AM
UNC was up 68-60 with about 2:16 to go (IIRC). We finished on a 14-5 run.

Roy's problem wasn't the failure to call a TO in the last sequence IMO. It was:

1. Not calling a TO to stop our run; break our rhythm; set a defense; run a play; etc. at all in that stretch.

2. Not have the ball in Brice Johnson's hands at the end of that game.

Well stated. Coach K has chosen before not to call a time out in that situation. I won't fault Roy for that but the other stuff you post. Absolutely.

FerryFor50
02-18-2016, 09:23 AM
For every timeout Roy saves, he gets a BoBerry biscuit.

weezie
02-18-2016, 09:25 AM
... Roy likes to think...

Yes, he does, doesn't he. Guess all the noise in the dumpdome distracted him from triangulating a play.

uh_no
02-18-2016, 09:29 AM
For every timeout Roy saves, he gets a BoBerry biscuit.

someone should tell him there's a 55 timeout/year contribution limit to his IRA.

Bluedog
02-18-2016, 09:31 AM
From a coaching perspective, I thought it was the right move to not call timeout at first in my opinion. They got into the front court, kind of made it appear that they were going to attack and even got it to Jackson in the middle of the lane at about the ACC logo. But we did a great job of picking up and making them kick the ball out to the perimeter and not penetrate for an easy basket. At that point, conventional wisdom would be to call your timeout and draw something up to get it to one of your best players. I believe there was about 8 seconds or so remaining when Jackson was cut off in the lane and then kicked it out. There was plenty of time left, had they called timeout, to draw up a play and get a better look than what they got. Sure glad we have K and they have Roy, and it ended with a Duke W!!!

I think the new rules don't allow the coach to call a timeout in that situation anymore -- it has to be a dead ball. Of course, Roy could have instructed his players to call the TO, but they ultimately must be the ones to do so (like what happened at the end of the UVa game with 6 seconds left).

tbyers11
02-18-2016, 09:39 AM
UNC was up 68-60 with about 2:16 to go (IIRC). We finished on a 14-5 run.

Roy's problem wasn't the failure to call a TO in the last sequence IMO. It was:

1. Not calling a TO to stop our run; break our rhythm; set a defense; run a play; remind them to go inside against a defender with four fouls; etc. at all in that stretch.

2. Not have the ball in Brice Johnson's hands at the end of that game.

We did finish on a 14-5 run but it was 68-60 at 6:30 left. Luke's 3 to give us the lead was at 2:40. Speaks even more to how good our D was. Carolina scored 5 points in the last 6:30.

A Johnson dunk on a pass from Jackson at 4:44 (a bit lucky as we caused a loose ball that bounced around for a bit before Jackson picked it up)
1 of 2 FT from Paige after he was fouled on a drive by Grayson at 3:50
A Meeks layup on a nice pass from Jackson after he corralled a long rebound after a Paige missed 3 around the 2 minute mark

That's it.
--------------------------------------------------
As for Roy and his TO use. I don't fault him for not calling one right away. Run down the floor and see if you get something before the defense is set. Except that the defense was set before Berry crossed half-court. I'd have called one there. His whole team was looking for him to call one.

But I can see letting the play develop. Berry passed to Johnson who passed to Jackson. Jackson was cutoff very nicely on a drive to the middle by Grayson. He throws it back to Berry top of the key with 8 secs left. This is where you now HAVE to call timeout. Roy didn't even think about it. Interestingly, if he had wanted to call a TO here would he have been able to get one? Coaches can't call TOs in live ball situations any more. I don't know if he could have gotten the attention of one of his players in the noise to do so.

As mentioned above there are no hard guidelines in this situation. However, UNC failed miserably by never putting the ball in Paige's hands or setting up an iso for Johnson in the post.-

MChambers
02-18-2016, 09:45 AM
I like the thread on IC titled "Hire Chris Webber"

BLPOG
02-18-2016, 10:07 AM
I thought he gets to redeem them for cases of Coca Cola

According to a UNC fan I encountered after the game, Roy can use them in place of tickets at Chuck E. Cheese.

Edit: He led with, "It's time to fire Roy."

BigWayne
02-18-2016, 10:49 AM
Every announcer seemed to know that Roy wouldn't call a timeout in that end game situation. I would bet that our players have been coached to know that and respond accordingly. Hall of fame coaches shouldn't be that predictable.

mullslaw6383
02-18-2016, 10:54 AM
I think the new rules don't allow the coach to call a timeout in that situation anymore -- it has to be a dead ball. Of course, Roy could have instructed his players to call the TO, but they ultimately must be the ones to do so (like what happened at the end of the UVa game with 6 seconds left).

Correct. But if Roy really wanted the timeout, he should have just started yelling for it and Paige or Berry most likely would have called it since they were already near their bench. The officials most likely would be anticipating a possible timeout to be called, so if he really wanted it, he could have gotten it IMO.

BD80
02-18-2016, 02:25 PM
ol' roy really screwed the pooch by failing to call the time out.

It is one thing if your team has been making good decisions on offense and had the defense on its heels (sorry). This was the opposite. There was no reason to have confidence in what the team would run, or that a good shot would result. It is like going to a no huddle offense in football, you take the play-calling out of the hands of the Offensive Coordinator whose job is to devise an offensive scheme and evaluate how the teams are responding to various calls and scenarios. Given that Duke had tightened its defense and unc had NOT been having success over the last several possessions, roy HAD to call the TO to set up a play. Something the team had confidence in, or something Duke wouldn't expect, or something roy or another coach recognized would work due to a tendency Duke had displayed in its defense.

Merlindevildog91
02-18-2016, 03:20 PM
I like the thread on IC titled "Hire Chris Webber"

The followup post was, "he knows how to call time out."

I think their mods deleted it.

oldnavy
02-18-2016, 03:20 PM
This loss hit Roy really hard.

I watched a bit of the post game PC. He seemed like he was on the verge of bawling right there on the podium... I found it a bit unsettling.

Anyone else find it uncomfortable to watch?

wilson
02-18-2016, 03:24 PM
This loss hit Roy really hard.

I watched a bit of the post game PC. He seemed like he was on the verge of bawling right there on the podium... I found it a bit unsettling.

Anyone else find it uncomfortable to watch?HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

wsb3
02-18-2016, 03:27 PM
“I told the kids I should have called a timeout,” he said. “We didn't get as good a shot as I thought we would get. It's just what I've always believed in and even though I said it's my fault, if we had to do it tomorrow night I'd probably do the same thing, because I just think that's the best way to play.”

Ole Roy..


Thank you Roy for clearing that up.

DukieInKansas
02-18-2016, 03:29 PM
This loss hit Roy really hard.

I watched a bit of the post game PC. He seemed like he was on the verge of bawling right there on the podium... I found it a bit unsettling.

Anyone else find it uncomfortable to watch?

I didn't notice this anymore than I usually do - I think he often looks like he is going to cry during pressers. His posture did seem a bit more defeated than usual.

I did feel a bit sorry for him - but I laid down and the feeling passed.

FerryFor50
02-18-2016, 03:33 PM
This loss hit Roy really hard.

I watched a bit of the post game PC. He seemed like he was on the verge of bawling right there on the podium... I found it a bit unsettling.

Anyone else find it uncomfortable to watch?

I was more uncomfortable with how happy it made me to see him so sad and close to tears.

Doria
02-18-2016, 03:47 PM
I think the new rules don't allow the coach to call a timeout in that situation anymore -- it has to be a dead ball. Of course, Roy could have instructed his players to call the TO, but they ultimately must be the ones to do so (like what happened at the end of the UVa game with 6 seconds left).

This is true, but their PG... Um, Berry? (all their players have names that either start with "j" or "b")... did go by the bench to see if Roy wanted the timeout. This also wasted seconds, in addition to the leisurely stroll bringing the ball up. I actually am not sure who their PG is between Berry and Paige. I'd expected Paige to have the ball at the end, so maybe I'm confusing their players.

By contrast, Coach K called a TO not to set a real play against UVA (he essentially told Grayson to go, which is what Roy ostensibly wanted from his players, too), but to give Allen every advantage in positioning and any other reminders the team needed (like setting up Allen's defender); this also basically ensured Allen would be able to get the ball. It isn't a perfect comparison, because we arguably needed to stop the clock past halfcourt more than Carolina did, but still...

FerryFor50
02-18-2016, 03:50 PM
This is true, but their PG... Um, Berry? (all their players have names that either start with "j" or "b")... did go by the bench to see if Roy wanted the timeout. This also wasted seconds, in addition to the leisurely stroll bringing the ball up. I actually am not sure who their PG is between Berry and Paige. I'd expected Paige to have the ball at the end, so maybe I'm confusing their players.

By contrast, Coach K called a TO not to set a real play (he essentially told Grayson to go, which is what Roy ostensibly wanted from his players, too), but to give Allen every advantage in positioning and any other reminders the team needed (like setting up Allen's defender); this also basically ensured Allen would be able to get the ball. It isn't a perfect comparison, because we arguably needed to stop the clock past halfcourt more than Carolina did, but still...

Britt is their other PG (that actually plays considerable minutes).

Paige did touch the ball at the end but gave it right back to Berry. His poor shooting night probably helped influence that decision. ;)

Doria
02-18-2016, 03:52 PM
}%^#{! I can't keep track of their players, no matter how hard I try. Oh, well. Thanks for the correction.

mkirsh
02-18-2016, 03:52 PM
“I told the kids I should have called a timeout,” he said. “We didn't get as good a shot as I thought we would get. It's just what I've always believed in and even though I said it's my fault, if we had to do it tomorrow night I'd probably do the same thing, because I just think that's the best way to play.”

Ole Roy..


Thank you Roy for clearing that up.

I wish I could take credit for this joke, but is was in the WaPo comments section of the article on the game:

"In fairness to Roy, he would probably apologize about it again tomorrow as well"

FerryFor50
02-18-2016, 03:59 PM
}%^#{! I can't keep track of their players, no matter how hard I try. Oh, well. Thanks for the correction.

You had it right - Berry had the ball. He's overtaken Britt as the go to PG. Paige is more of a SG at this stage of his career, which I think partly explains his overall decline. He's better with the ball in his hands than off the ball.

oldnavy
02-18-2016, 04:01 PM
“I told the kids I should have called a timeout,” he said. “We didn't get as good a shot as I thought we would get. It's just what I've always believed in and even though I said it's my fault, if we had to do it tomorrow night I'd probably do the same thing, because I just think that's the best way to play.”

Ole Roy..


Thank you Roy for clearing that up.

And this comment by Roy is exactly what my wife quoted when she said she was done defending Roy...

Why bother to say that you should have called a timeout only to immediately say that you wouldn't if given the chance????

The guy is a nut.

Highlander
02-18-2016, 04:18 PM
“I told the kids I should have called a timeout,” he said. “We didn't get as good a shot as I thought we would get. It's just what I've always believed in and even though I said it's my fault, if we had to do it tomorrow night I'd probably do the same thing, because I just think that's the best way to play.”

Ole Roy..


Thank you Roy for clearing that up.

You know, I find this blaming of Roy for not calling a timeout fascinating when you remember that in 2012, K was in exactly the same scenario only down 2 instead of 1. He also opted not to call a timeout and let Austin Rivers improvise. The rest, is history.

A lot of this in my opinion is hindsight 20/20 stuff. Of course it had to be the wrong decision not to call timeout, most simply because it didn't work. We don't know if calling a timeout in that situation would have been any more successful, but I do know if he called a timeout and they still failed to score, the criticism today would be THAT was the wrong call.

Devilwin
02-18-2016, 04:29 PM
UNC was up 68-60 with about 2:16 to go (IIRC). We finished on a 14-5 run.

Roy's problem wasn't the failure to call a TO in the last sequence IMO. It was:

1. Not calling a TO to stop our run; break our rhythm; set a defense; run a play; remind them to go inside against a defender with four fouls; etc. at all in that stretch.

2. Not have the ball in Brice Johnson's hands at the end of that game.

I think your second point is the more obvious of the two. Johnson was unstoppable, and he got few sniffs late.

mkirsh
02-18-2016, 04:42 PM
You know, I find this blaming of Roy for not calling a timeout fascinating when you remember that in 2012, K was in exactly the same scenario only down 2 instead of 1. He also opted not to call a timeout and let Austin Rivers improvise. The rest, is history.

A lot of this in my opinion is hindsight 20/20 stuff. Of course it had to be the wrong decision not to call timeout, most simply because it didn't work. We don't know if calling a timeout in that situation would have been any more successful, but I do know if he called a timeout and they still failed to score, the criticism today would be THAT was the wrong call.

Mostly because he didn't want a T - Duke was out of timeouts in the Rivers game

-bdbd
02-18-2016, 04:43 PM
By the way, someone really should go over to IC and start a "Roy Deserves Our Support, Let's Keep Him" thread.


This is the post of the day!

I posted the same thing on TDD last night. I think it is in our interest to have (supposed NC) fans giving him some support. Lord knows he's not getting it from hardly anybody on IC. As of late last night there were several strings on IC around the theme of "fire Roy." Oddly, K was actually drawing some compliments, grudgingly, by fans finally realizing that he totally has Roy's number.

That was the biggest match-up advantage we had last night, no doubt: K > Roy.

Highlander
02-18-2016, 05:01 PM
Mostly because he didn't want a T - Duke was out of timeouts in the Rivers game

OK, so I stand corrected. Not having a timeout would have been a slight hindrance ;)

Thanks mkirsh!

mkirsh
02-18-2016, 06:10 PM
OK, so I stand corrected. Not having a timeout would have been a slight hindrance ;)

Thanks mkirsh!

In retrospect my response was a little snarky, as your main point still stands - many good coaches won't call a time out in that situation, and it is easy to second guess with the benefit of hindsight. Similar to what other posters have said, I'm in the camp of trying to find an easy shot before the defense gets back without using a time out, but once the ball started moving backwards and Berry was facing a set D from the top of the key with 8 seconds left and looking completely lost, I would have called a TO then.

JWill and Seth Greenberg got a little heated arguing it last night after the game, and I thought for a minute JWill was going to say "that is why you are no longer coaching," but he held is composure better than I would have.

Merlindevildog91
02-18-2016, 07:04 PM
In retrospect my response was a little snarky, as your main point still stands - many good coaches won't call a time out in that situation, and it is easy to second guess with the benefit of hindsight. Similar to what other posters have said, I'm in the camp of trying to find an easy shot before the defense gets back without using a time out, but once the ball started moving backwards and Berry was facing a set D from the top of the key with 8 seconds left and looking completely lost, I would have called a TO then.

JWill and Seth Greenberg got a little heated arguing it last night after the game, and I thought for a minute JWill was going to say "that is why you are no longer coaching," but he held is composure better than I would have.

One of Seth's arguments against calling a time out (either last night or this morning; timing is sort of fuzzy) was what if you can't get the ball back in. The problem with that argument last night is that unc had three TO's so if they couldn't have gotten the throw in Roy could have called another dad gum timeout.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-18-2016, 07:29 PM
I dunno. Roy talked as if this was on him anyway.

According to Roy, Deano taught him that if the team has a last shot opportunity with more than 7 seconds, it should attack rather than call time out, to prevent the defense from getting set.

Problem is: With 20 seconds or so left, when it was time for that TO/no-TO call, the Duke defense was already back and pretty well set. Seems more likely that Roy didn't have a plan and punted to his team.

My take on the end game...

The defense had time to get set because one player forgot what every other UNC player on the floor knew what the coach wanted him to do in that situation...push the ball up the floor and attack, just as they try to do off every made basket.

Unfortunately it was Berry and he had the ball. He had a sophomore moment and walked it up looking for Roy to call a TO. It was a mistake in a big game by a young player. No excuses, he just has to learn from it.

Roy was watching Berry...not the defense...trying to get him to push it and then had to make a quick decision to implore him to keep going before he turned to see the defense was fairly settled. Berry put them in that situation, not Roy, by not executing what I guarantee you they go over often in late game situations at practice.

Roy fell on the sword again and took the blame for not calling the TO when what he really wanted them to do, what he has them practice doing, was to attack an unsettled defense.

Bob Green
02-18-2016, 07:38 PM
Roy fell on the sword again and took the blame for not calling the TO when what he really wanted them to do, what he has them practice doing, was to attack an unsettled defense.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.*

* Helmuth von Moltke

elvis14
02-18-2016, 08:46 PM
One thing I noticed is that our defense was back and ready. We know he's not going to call timeout. So even if Barry pushes the ball up the court more quickly, DT would have been ready for him.

wavedukefan70s
02-18-2016, 08:46 PM
By the way, someone really should go over to IC and start a "Roy Deserves Our Support, Let's Keep Him" thread.

Someone has lol.couldn't get the link to post .

Indoor66
02-18-2016, 09:34 PM
Roy fell on the sword again and took the blame for not calling the TO when what he really wanted them to do, what he has them practice doing, was to attack an unsettled defense.

Roy has a hell of a lot of holes in him from this team! :confused::rolleyes::cool:

coachbrent
02-18-2016, 09:35 PM
5980

Newton_14
02-18-2016, 11:27 PM
To me, this is the crux of why Roy is a good, but not great coach. In a game as complex and fast-moving as basketball, nobody should ever teach anyone to do exactly the same thing in any game situation with x amount of time left on the clock. Last night was another of those nights when K distinguished himself by adjusting to both his personnel and the situation. He has done this throughout his career, and won titles with teams playing vastly different styles (sometimes, the same team playing vastly different styles within the same season, a la 2001 pre- & post-Boozer injury). Roy does not adjust well on a season-long basis (remember how long it took him to bench Larry Drew II?), nor does he respond particularly well to in-game ebbs and flows. To say that you should automatically do something just because you have the ball with however many seconds left, irrespective of your players' abilities, the opponent's abilities, and the circumstances of the individual game, just embodies Roy's short-sighted and ultimately limited thinking to me.ry
Great post Wilson. Tried to spork you but I have given out too much in the 24 hr period so system would not let me. It is similar to Roy's comment a couple of years ago where he stated that he had been following the exact same practice plan since starting in 1988. I found that incredulous. He seriously does not see how that is such a flawed thing... More commentary below in my summary on my thoughts about whither calling a TO....


From a coaching perspective, I thought it was the right move to not call timeout at first in my opinion. They got into the front court, kind of made it appear that they were going to attack and even got it to Jackson in the middle of the lane at about the ACC logo. But we did a great job of picking up and making them kick the ball out to the perimeter and not penetrate for an easy basket. At that point, conventional wisdom would be to call your timeout and draw something up to get it to one of your best players. I believe there was about 8 seconds or so remaining when Jackson was cut off in the lane and then kicked it out. There was plenty of time left, had they called timeout, to draw up a play and get a better look than what they got. Sure glad we have K and they have Roy, and it ended with a Duke W!!! You make a good point here regarding leaving your options open, given the amount of time that was still on the clock. Kind of like "having your cake and eating it too" in that you give the players a chance to do it on their own, and when you recognize they are not going to get a good shot, or look confused/out of sorts, you call the TO and draw up a play. I get that the new rule is in place only allowing players to call a live ball TO, but that does not hold water in my opinion, because the offense is on the same end as the team bench, and the coach, in this case Roy, is almost certainly going to get the attention of his players. That rule has added zero value in my opinion. It's a stupid rule, and did nothing to improve the game. But that is a rant/thread for another day. I watched Gottfried do this exact thing a couple of weeks back in one of their games. He waited to give them a chance, then called the TO when he saw they were in trouble. That is good coaching. (Yet Roy is supposed to be a superior coach to Gott)


I think against Duke in particular, Roy likes to think he is exploiting Dukes' depth by not calling TOs and giving the tired Duke players time to rest.

I don't see any possible defense of not calling a TO at the end. You need to coach by feel period. Everyone, UNC fans, Duke fans, and commentators could feel that UNC was and had been out of sorts. Why would you not regroup? He totally handicapped his team. Thanks Roy! I totally agree here.


We did finish on a 14-5 run but it was 68-60 at 6:30 left. Luke's 3 to give us the lead was at 2:40. Speaks even more to how good our D was. Carolina scored 5 points in the last 6:30.

A Johnson dunk on a pass from Jackson at 4:44 (a bit lucky as we caused a loose ball that bounced around for a bit before Jackson picked it up)
1 of 2 FT from Paige after he was fouled on a drive by Grayson at 3:50
A Meeks layup on a nice pass from Jackson after he corralled a long rebound after a Paige missed 3 around the 2 minute mark

That's it.
--------------------------------------------------
As for Roy and his TO use. I don't fault him for not calling one right away. Run down the floor and see if you get something before the defense is set. Except that the defense was set before Berry crossed half-court. I'd have called one there. His whole team was looking for him to call one.

But I can see letting the play develop. Berry passed to Johnson who passed to Jackson. Jackson was cutoff very nicely on a drive to the middle by Grayson. He throws it back to Berry top of the key with 8 secs left. This is where you now HAVE to call timeout. Roy didn't even think about it. Interestingly, if he had wanted to call a TO here would he have been able to get one? Coaches can't call TOs in live ball situations any more. I don't know if he could have gotten the attention of one of his players in the noise to do so.

As mentioned above there are no hard guidelines in this situation. However, UNC failed miserably by never putting the ball in Paige's hands or setting up an iso for Johnson in the post.-
Good post. My response directly above applies, so while I have explained already, I wanted to give you props for your post


You know, I find this blaming of Roy for not calling a timeout fascinating when you remember that in 2012, K was in exactly the same scenario only down 2 instead of 1. He also opted not to call a timeout and let Austin Rivers improvise. The rest, is history.

A lot of this in my opinion is hindsight 20/20 stuff. Of course it had to be the wrong decision not to call timeout, most simply because it didn't work. We don't know if calling a timeout in that situation would have been any more successful, but I do know if he called a timeout and they still failed to score, the criticism today would be THAT was the wrong call.
Someone beat me to the fact we were out of TO's in that game, but see my summary for my thoughts on the TO or no TO


My take on the end game...

The defense had time to get set because one player forgot what every other UNC player on the floor knew what the coach wanted him to do in that situation...push the ball up the floor and attack, just as they try to do off every made basket.

Unfortunately it was Berry and he had the ball. He had a sophomore moment and walked it up looking for Roy to call a TO. It was a mistake in a big game by a young player. No excuses, he just has to learn from it.

Roy was watching Berry...not the defense...trying to get him to push it and then had to make a quick decision to implore him to keep going before he turned to see the defense was fairly settled. Berry put them in that situation, not Roy, by not executing what I guarantee you they go over often in late game situations at practice.

Roy fell on the sword again and took the blame for not calling the TO when what he really wanted them to do, what he has them practice doing, was to attack an unsettled defense.
That is exactly why you have to call the Timeout in the situation last night. I do think you are in serious denial regarding your coach, or you do not wish to condemn him publically. There is a very large part of the fanbase that no longer want him to be the coach, and rightly so. He is a shell of his former coaching self, and reveals to the world often why. "I coach the way I was taught by "Coach", follow the same practice plan I have used since 1988, which of course was the same practice plan "Coach" used". If there are more than 7 seconds left, you never call a timeout, no matter the situation, opponent, personnel in the game, which player has the ball.. etc. I will be polite and just say that is a really bad "rule" and thought process.

So, my take on whether or not to call a timeout in the situation Roy encountered last night, and in general in similar situations. It is not rocket science and several of you have stated it but just did not expound upon it.

First, you cannot have a hard and fast rule. This isn't a case of one size fits all. Far from it. There are so many variables to consider, I won't bore you by trying to list them all. I do want to expound upon it a bit though.

Second, it matters greatly what type of team you have, how good they are, how many times they have been successful in similar situations in real games as well as simulation in practices. It also matters greatly which of your players finds themselves with the ball bringing it up. As Wheat so aptly pointed out, last night the ball was in the hands of a Sophomore who was not a starter last year, and is still very much learning how to play the PG position. Berry was also in the midst of having a poor game as well. Also as Wheat pointed out, the kid dribbled almost directly to his coach, practically begging his coach with his eyes and demeanor to call a Timeout, wasting valuable seconds in the process. That situation demanded a TO be called, but as mulls & byers pointed out above, there was still plenty of time to give the players a chance to make a play and then call a TO if you see they are struggling and might not get as good a shot as you want, which is exactly what was happening. If the player bringing the ball up is Ty Lawson, Kendall Marshall, or in this case, Marcus Paige, then the odds are they are going to make the right decision and a good play, so you let it ride with them. K has done the exact same thing in times past with the likes of a John Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Jason Williams, Senior Quinn Cook, Tyus Jones, etc, with much success. 2001 ACC Tourney against Maryland comes to mind for example. However, if it is Derryck Thornton (due to age/experience) or Soph Quinn Cook, or Greg Paulus, ,etc, K has most often called the Timeout like he did against UVA, to call a set play, or put his best option in best case position to make a play, again ala Grayson/UVA as Doria pointed out.

There are many, many other factors to consider when deciding whether or not to call the TO, including "feel"/gut instinct as others noted. To hear a coach say his hard and fast rule is based solely on 7 seconds or not is just incredulous to me. I truly am amazed that is Roy's logic. Also agree to sit there and say it was the wrong move but he would do it again tomorrow is borderline insanity.

camion
02-18-2016, 11:49 PM
Rule of thumb: If the other team is disorganized on defense don't call timeout. If your team is disorganized on offense do call timeout.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-19-2016, 04:15 AM
ry
Great post Wilson. Tried to spork you but I have given out too much in the 24 hr period so system would not let me. It is similar to Roy's comment a couple of years ago where he stated that he had been following the exact same practice plan since starting in 1988. I found that incredulous. He seriously does not see how that is such a flawed thing... More commentary below in my summary on my thoughts about whither calling a TO...

You make a good point here regarding leaving your options open, given the amount of time that was still on the clock. Kind of like "having your cake and eating it too" in that you give the players a chance to do it on their own, and when you recognize they are not going to get a good shot, or look confused/out of sorts, you call the TO and draw up a play. I get that the new rule is in place only allowing players to call a live ball TO, but that does not hold water in my opinion, because the offense is on the same end as the team bench, and the coach, in this case Roy, is almost certainly going to get the attention of his players. That rule has added zero value in my opinion. It's a stupid rule, and did nothing to improve the game. But that is a rant/thread for another day. I watched Gottfried do this exact thing a couple of weeks back in one of their games. He waited to give them a chance, then called the TO when he saw they were in trouble. That is good coaching. (Yet Roy is supposed to be a superior coach to Gott)

I totally agree here.


Good post. My response directly above applies, so while I have explained already, I wanted to give you props for your post


Someone beat me to the fact we were out of TO's in that game, but see my summary for my thoughts on the TO or no TO


That is exactly why you have to call the Timeout in the situation last night. I do think you are in serious denial regarding your coach, or you do not wish to condemn him publically. There is a very large part of the fanbase that no longer want him to be the coach, and rightly so. He is a shell of his former coaching self, and reveals to the world often why. "I coach the way I was taught by "Coach", follow the same practice plan I have used since 1988, which of course was the same practice plan "Coach" used". If there are more than 7 seconds left, you never call a timeout, no matter the situation, opponent, personnel in the game, which player has the ball.. etc. I will be polite and just say that is a really bad "rule" and thought process.

So, my take on whether or not to call a timeout in the situation Roy encountered last night, and in general in similar situations. It is not rocket science and several of you have stated it but just did not expound upon it.

First, you cannot have a hard and fast rule. This isn't a case of one size fits all. Far from it. There are so many variables to consider, I won't bore you by trying to list them all. I do want to expound upon it a bit though.

Second, it matters greatly what type of team you have, how good they are, how many times they have been successful in similar situations in real games as well as simulation in practices. It also matters greatly which of your players finds themselves with the ball bringing it up. As Wheat so aptly pointed out, last night the ball was in the hands of a Sophomore who was not a starter last year, and is still very much learning how to play the PG position. Berry was also in the midst of having a poor game as well. Also as Wheat pointed out, the kid dribbled almost directly to his coach, practically begging his coach with his eyes and demeanor to call a Timeout, wasting valuable seconds in the process. That situation demanded a TO be called, but as mulls & byers pointed out above, there was still plenty of time to give the players a chance to make a play and then call a TO if you see they are struggling and might not get as good a shot as you want, which is exactly what was happening. If the player bringing the ball up is Ty Lawson, Kendall Marshall, or in this case, Marcus Paige, then the odds are they are going to make the right decision and a good play, so you let it ride with them. K has done the exact same thing in times past with the likes of a John Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Jason Williams, Senior Quinn Cook, Tyus Jones, etc, with much success. 2001 ACC Tourney against Maryland comes to mind for example. However, if it is Derryck Thornton (due to age/experience) or Soph Quinn Cook, or Greg Paulus, ,etc, K has most often called the Timeout like he did against UVA, to call a set play, or put his best option in best case position to make a play, again ala Grayson/UVA as Doria pointed out.

There are many, many other factors to consider when deciding whether or not to call the TO, including "feel"/gut instinct as others noted. To hear a coach say his hard and fast rule is based solely on 7 seconds or not is just incredulous to me. I truly am amazed that is Roy's logic. Also agree to sit there and say it was the wrong move but he would do it again tomorrow is borderline insanity.

The past few of years Roy has a group of kids that just don't have the mental toughness to close out tight games. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Regarding Duke, you've been good but you've also been fortunate UNC has made so many mistakes in late game situations and the big shots and breaks went your way.

A rimmed out shot, here, no TO there, a foul call, or not...and these one possession games go the other way and UNC is on the winning side.

My point is these past few seasons several games where UNC has lost to Duke have come from issues regarding the play from the court, not from the bench.

UNC hasn't made the winning plays. Duke has.

Coach K didn't shoot those jumpers for Ingram, Rivers or drive to the rim for Tyus. Those players made plays. Roy just hasn't had that from his guys in crunch time.

UNC fans as a whole are frustrated and spoiled right now and are lashing out. It's part of the job description to be a big time coach to deal with it.

Roy is a great coach and way under appreciated, in my opinion, and UNC is lucky to have him.

He will weather this storm and go out on his own terms. He's earned it and deserves it.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2016, 06:02 AM
The past few of years Roy has a group of kids that just don't have the mental toughness to close out tight games. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Regarding Duke, you've been good but you've also been fortunate UNC has made so many mistakes in late game situations and the big shots and breaks went your way.

A rimmed out shot, here, no TO there, a foul call, or not...and these one possession games go the other way and UNC is on the winning side.

My point is these past few seasons several games where UNC has lost to Duke have come from issues regarding the play from the court, not from the bench.

UNC hasn't made the winning plays. Duke has.

Coach K didn't shoot those jumpers for Ingram, Rivers or drive to the rim for Tyus. Those players made plays. Roy just hasn't had that from his guys in crunch time.

UNC fans as a whole are frustrated and spoiled right now and are lashing out. It's part of the job description to be a big time coach to deal with it.

Roy is a great coach and way under appreciated, in my opinion, and UNC is lucky to have him.

He will weather this storm and go out on his own terms. He's earned it and deserves it.

I'd argue that it's part of the job description to have things "seem to go our way" - be it getting plays from your guys in crunch time, making the winning plays, or having the shots go down.

Wheat, I give you respect for showing up here and taking some lumps after the game - that's not easy to do. But I think your blind defense of Roy is strange. Do you really think that there was no point in the final two minutes that a TO would have settled down his team's offense? Do you think it's a bit strange that your stud player who had 27 points in the first 30 minutes got zero looks in crunch time while defended by our only legit interior player who had four fouls for the final 14 minutes of the game? Is that all "fortunate" for Duke? If so, we have very different interpretations as to what constitutes "fortunate."

I'm happy we won - and yes, we did get lucky at moments, and we worked our tails off at moments. But we also were the beneficiary of some shall we say "questionable" decisions by UNC's coaching staff.

OldPhiKap
02-19-2016, 07:04 AM
The past few of years Roy has a group of kids that just don't have the mental toughness to close out tight games. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Regarding Duke, you've been good but you've also been fortunate UNC has made so many mistakes . . . .

Developing good mental habits and preparation is what a coach is supposed to teach. It is educational development.

A coach does not make a shot in a game. But he makes sure his players are in a good position to do so, and that they know what to do. This is a total coaching failure.

Duke finished on a 14-5 run. It was not just one mental error by Berry. It was poor game management.

MChambers
02-19-2016, 07:52 AM
http://i.imgur.com/r6RqtsE.png

BD80
02-19-2016, 08:46 AM
... UNC fans as a whole are frustrated and spoiled right now and are lashing out. It's part of the job description to be a big time coach to deal with it.

Roy is a ... coach and way under appreciated, in my opinion, and UNC is lucky to have him.

He will weather this storm and go out on his own terms. He's earned it and deserves it.

The entire Duke fanbase is rooting for you to be right.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-19-2016, 09:40 AM
I'd argue that it's part of the job description to have things "seem to go our way" - be it getting plays from your guys in crunch time, making the winning plays, or having the shots go down.

Wheat, I give you respect for showing up here and taking some lumps after the game - that's not easy to do. But I think your blind defense of Roy is strange. Do you really think that there was no point in the final two minutes that a TO would have settled down his team's offense? Do you think it's a bit strange that your stud player who had 27 points in the first 30 minutes got zero looks in crunch time while defended by our only legit interior player who had four fouls for the final 14 minutes of the game? Is that all "fortunate" for Duke? If so, we have very different interpretations as to what constitutes "fortunate."

I'm happy we won - and yes, we did get lucky at moments, and we worked our tails off at moments. But we also were the beneficiary of some shall we say "questionable" decisions by UNC's coaching staff.

Duke earned the wins, I hope nobody takes my comments any other way.

It's easy to second guess a coach/leader after a loss/downfall. I hate doing it, because I know how it feels when you are the guy who makes things happen, takes the chances, put in the work, leave your heart and soul on the table to do good and be good, and then have a bunch of people who do nothing, contributed nothing, sit back and sling arrows at you...without the understanding of what it took to get to there and knowing the people/players involved.

Personally, that's why I don't criticize Roy Williams. There is no doubt in my mind that he is out there doing his best and he has been very successful overall...just not in a few recent one possession games.

Until I'm invited to sit in with the coaches and tell them what I think would have been best in a situation, I'm just gonna sit back and try to be a good fan and support my coach and team.

MChambers
02-19-2016, 10:26 AM
Duke earned the wins, I hope nobody takes my comments any other way.

It's easy to second guess a coach/leader after a loss/downfall. I hate doing it, because I know how it feels when you are the guy who makes things happen, takes the chances, put in the work, leave your heart and soul on the table to do good and be good, and then have a bunch of people who do nothing, contributed nothing, sit back and sling arrows at you...without the understanding of what it took to get to there and knowing the people/players involved.

Personally, that's why I don't criticize Roy Williams. There is no doubt in my mind that he is out there doing his best and he has been very successful overall...just not in a few recent one possession games.

Until I'm invited to sit in with the coaches and tell them what I think would have been best in a situation, I'm just gonna sit back and try to be a good fan and support my coach and team.
Nicely put. I'm not as down on Roy's in-game coaching as many here are. He's a good, very accomplished coach.

Luckily, we have a better coach.

Matches
02-19-2016, 10:34 AM
Listening to talk radio yesterday and a caller was going on about how terrible Roy is, said something like "There's 20-30 coaches who are better." And I'm thinking, ok, let's say that's true. Let's say that out of the 350 or so head coaches in Division I MBB, Roy's the 20th best. This is criticism? That's actually really good.

Roy is a victim of unrealistic expectations in CH, and an unflattering comparison to K. Roy is not as good a coach as K is, and he's not as good a coach as Dean was. Guess what, though? *Hardly anyone is as good as those guys.* K and Dean are 2 of the 4-5 best *of all time*. When K leaves, it's nearly a certainty that the next coach will not be as good, because math.

The UNC fanbase is still stuck in the rut of comparing everyone to Dean, and that's kind of sad given that Dean retired 19 years ago. I hope that when K does leave we as a group won't fall into that same trap, or that if we do it won't take us two decades and counting to get out of it.

FerryFor50
02-19-2016, 10:45 AM
Coach K didn't shoot those jumpers for Ingram, Rivers or drive to the rim for Tyus. Those players made plays. Roy just hasn't had that from his guys in crunch time.


No, K didn't make those plays. But he knew enough to recognize who his best players are/were and put them in positions to be able to make plays.

Down the stretch on Wednesday, Duke essentially ran 1 play on offense - pick the best matchup between Ingram and Allen and let them go iso.

Did Roy call for any double teams? Did he try to deny the ball? Nope. He let Allen/Ingram go one on one, and Duke won most of those matchups.

Roy also failed to put the ball in the hands of his best players down the stretch. Yes, Roy doesn't pass the ball to Brice Johnson or Marcus Paige or Justin Jackson. But he can call the plays and bench guys who aren't running the plays. Or *shudder* call a timeout to emphasize the need to run those plays.

One of the biggest contrasts between Roy and K the past few seasons is that Roy will play just about everyone on his team, regardless of talent or how ready they are. Sure, you get the occasional contribution from Luke Maye or Jackson Simmons, but it comes at the cost of minutes and touches for better players. Do you think Duke wins if Chase Jeter plays as much as Isaiah Hicks? Or if K decides that Obi/Vrank need to get 5 minutes like Roy played Luke Maye?

Marshall Plumlee played 35 minutes, 10 of which were with FOUR fouls. Brice Johnson played 33 minutes and had 27pts by halftime.

These are all *coaching* mistakes and have nothing to do with the players lacking heart or executing.

Atlanta Duke
02-19-2016, 10:50 AM
No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.*

* Helmuth von Moltke

True that

Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.

Mike Tyson

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-19-2016, 11:30 AM
Duke earned the wins, I hope nobody takes my comments any other way.

Don't worry Wheat, you could say that Duke cheated, got lucky, had every call go their way and it wouldn't make one iota of difference about how much I enjoyed Wednesday.


It's easy to second guess a coach/leader after a loss/downfall. I hate doing it, because I know how it feels when you are the guy who makes things happen, takes the chances, put in the work, leave your heart and soul on the table to do good and be good, and then have a bunch of people who do nothing, contributed nothing, sit back and sling arrows at you...without the understanding of what it took to get to there and knowing the people/players involved.

Isn't after a loss or a mistake exactly the best time to reevaluate your leaders?


Personally, that's why I don't criticize Roy Williams. There is no doubt in my mind that he is out there doing his best and he has been very successful overall...just not in a few recent one possession games.

Wow, I'm sorry. I don't think anyone in here was suggesting that Roy was sandbagging it or doing less than his best. Just that perhaps when it comes in-game adjustments and end game scenarios, Coach K eats his lunch. If I went in and coached, I would definitely do my best. I'd probably also lose.



Until I'm invited to sit in with the coaches and tell them what I think would have been best in a situation, I'm just gonna sit back and try to be a good fan and support my coach and team.

I respect that attitude, but isn't a sports message board exactly for second-guessing, strategizing, and wishful thinking? To be fair, folks here will eviscerate those who speak out against Coach K. But you seem to have a full-on blind spot with Roy.

Honest question for you - swap rosters and put them in the other uniforms under the other coach. Does Roy beat K with five players?

77devil
02-19-2016, 12:21 PM
The past few of years Roy has a group of kids that just don't have the mental toughness to close out tight games. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Regarding Duke, you've been good but you've also been fortunate UNC has made so many mistakes in late game situations and the big shots and breaks went your way.

A rimmed out shot, here, no TO there, a foul call, or not...and these one possession games go the other way and UNC is on the winning side.

My point is these past few seasons several games where UNC has lost to Duke have come from issues regarding the play from the court, not from the bench.

UNC hasn't made the winning plays. Duke has.

Coach K didn't shoot those jumpers for Ingram, Rivers or drive to the rim for Tyus. Those players made plays. Roy just hasn't had that from his guys in crunch time.



It's been more than a few seasons. For more tha 15 seasons, apart from the Hansbrough years, Duke has dominated UNC. You can attribute it to a break here or there or being fortunate if you want, but over a long stretch there are more definitive factors at work. Coach K called TOs 3 times when the UNC lead was 7 or 8. Each time Duke brought the lead back to 4 and hung around. Sure the players had to execute, but Coach K set the plan. Duke dominates UNC because Coach K owns Roy, and puts his players in a position to win. Coach K evolves while Roy sticks to his system and does what Deano told him.

Roy should have called TOs during the Brice Johnson drought to tell his team what to do. But he didn't. The game is passing him by.

Doria
02-19-2016, 12:47 PM
Personally, that's why I don't criticize Roy Williams. There is no doubt in my mind that he is out there doing his best and he has been very successful overall...just not in a few recent one possession games.

Until I'm invited to sit in with the coaches and tell them what I think would have been best in a situation, I'm just gonna sit back and try to be a good fan and support my coach and team.

I respect you for being a good fan and not doing as so many of your compatriots are and turning on the coach/team. But constructive criticism doesn't equal being a bad fan. It is wholly possible to think your coach is both good and also human, thereby subject to lapses of judgment and even errors of philosophy.

You're right that, but for a few breaks, you probably would have won. But you don't think BC is saying the same thing? You don't think NCSU says the same about some, if not most, of their many single-possession or five-point losses? Heck, we could say the same thing for all but the KY and Miami losses. And we'd all be kind of right. But all teams get a few unlucky bounces, calls, plays; the good teams find a way to overcome them most of the time.

And I've never been a fan of "I'm not a [fill in the blank], so I couldn't possibly have an opinion on [what fill-in-the-blank] does" logic. Sure, having comparable experience may make your judgments more sound. But it's false to say that one must have exactly equal experience to form an educated opinion; I mean, why bother voting this year, since I've never been president? Why bother writing reviews of anything if you haven't done all the jobs that go into the end product?

(I don't mean to be snarky to you personally. This argument is just a pet peeve, up there with the equally inane "it's an opinion, and everyone's opinions are equal," which, when assessing arguments, is pretty factually untrue.)

Indoor66
02-19-2016, 01:50 PM
The past few of years Roy has a group of kids that just don't have the mental toughness to close out tight games. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Regarding Duke, you've been good but you've also been fortunate UNC has made so many mistakes in late game situations and the big shots and breaks went your way.

A rimmed out shot, here, no TO there, a foul call, or not...and these one possession games go the other way and UNC is on the winning side.

My point is these past few seasons several games where UNC has lost to Duke have come from issues regarding the play from the court, not from the bench.

UNC hasn't made the winning plays. Duke has.

Coach K didn't shoot those jumpers for Ingram, Rivers or drive to the rim for Tyus. Those players made plays. Roy just hasn't had that from his guys in crunch time.

UNC fans as a whole are frustrated and spoiled right now and are lashing out. It's part of the job description to be a big time coach to deal with it.

Roy is a great coach and way under appreciated, in my opinion, and UNC is lucky to have him.

He will weather this storm and go out on his own terms. He's earned it and deserves it.

"The harder I practice, the luckier I get." - Gary Player after sinking a shot from a sand trap. You have to practice to have the situational awareness to handle end of game situations. It takes mental toughness and training. I am sure Roy has practices; I question, after all the mental mistakes, effort failures, etc. what he practices and whether his techniques are truly effective with today's kids. Something is amiss in his system. His teams seem to fail quite often under pressure. Wheat, you always seem to say it is the failure of the players. That just doesn't cut it after a while. The only constant in these failures is Roy. Sometimes a glance in the mirror can be painful.

grad_devil
02-19-2016, 02:47 PM
My take on the end game...
...push the ball up the floor and attack, just as they try to do off every made basket.

Unfortunately it was Berry and he had the ball. He had a sophomore moment and walked it up looking for Roy to call a TO. It was a mistake in a big game by a young player. No excuses, he just has to learn from it. [Emphasis added]


I had a question regarding Berry not pushing the ball up the court, because my memory said Berry didn't get his hands on the ball right away. After watching the replay, I wonder if you all agree?

Here's the way I see what happened:

Johson gets the rebound with 20.1 left
Johnson holds the ball for 3ish seconds
Johnson finally passes to Berry who secures it with ~16.9s remaining
All of Duke's players are already in the frontcourt at this time
Berry nearly sprints past halfcourt, which takes 2.5s

So in those 5.7ish seconds, Johnson holds the ball for ~3s and Berry has it for ~2.5s. By the time Berry even gets the ball, all of Duke's players are practically ready to play defense.

All that to say, I'm not so sure I believe it's Berry who was responsible for not pushing the ball up the court after Grayson's miss. One could argue, however, that it's his job as PG to come get the ball - that's probably a sound argument.

Watch this 18s video and see for yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2XSh7tShv0

weezie
02-19-2016, 03:16 PM
Oh shoot! You left out the hidden gem where Berry dribbled with both hands. Loved that bit....

SoCalDukeFan
02-19-2016, 04:38 PM
Roy was saving the timeouts for overtime.


What is really amazing, and I need to re-watch the game, but Roy did not get his guys to go inside even after the TV timeouts.

SoCal

bluebeagle
02-19-2016, 06:24 PM
Someone said on ESPN yesterday that statically you're better off NOT calling a time out in that situation. And since Dean was such a numbers guy I'm sure that's why he taught Roy not to call time out. I think one way to judge a coach is how much they do with the talent they have. Good talent or not so good. Honestly, I don't think there's many coaches in the country that couldn't do more with UNC's talent than Roy has. He just simply can't win without elite talent. I would even venture to say that he's not a very good recruiter. He's just been lucky to have landed at two schools that it doesn't take a lot of convincing to get the top recruits.

-jk
02-19-2016, 06:29 PM
Someone said on ESPN yesterday that statically you're better off NOT calling a time out in that situation. And since Dean was such a numbers guy I'm sure that's why he taught Roy not to call time out. I think one way to judge a coach is how much they do with the talent they have. Good talent or not so good. Honestly, I don't think there's many coaches in the country that couldn't do more with UNC's talent than Roy has. He just simply can't win without elite talent. I would even venture to say that he's not a very good recruiter. He's just been lucky to have landed at two schools that it doesn't take a lot of convincing to get the top recruits.

If your team is lost, perhaps you should give them guidance. The team was obviously lost...

Dean hoarded timeouts. But he used them when he needed them. (8 in 17, sigh)

-jk

Olympic Fan
02-19-2016, 06:37 PM
Just happened to catch the end of the 2012 Duke at UNC game on ESPN Classic.

Duke gets the ball down three with about 35 seconds left. For 15 seconds, Duke passes without much purpose around the perimeter. Seeing that nothing is happening, Coach K stands up and calls his last timeout with 20 seconds left.

THAT is the heart of the matter. I know it's not as simple and clearcut as the coach should always call timeout to set up a final play or that the coach should never call timeout to set up a play. That's what dumb coaches do -- lock into one idea or the other. The smart coach actually has to use his judgment to determine whether his team is on the right track or is confused and unfocused.

In 2012, Duke came out of the timeout and got a good 3-point look for Ryan Kelly ... he missed, but UNC's Tyler Zeller tipped it in. Duke gives a quick foul, Zeller hits 1 of 2 free throws, then Austin Rivers comes down and nails his game-winner over Zeller (not a good 20 second sequence for the ACC Player of the Year).

Watch grad-devils' video clip again ... you can see that when it ends, UNC has no focus -- nothing going. Duke's defense is back and in great position. Berry (I would say he's going half-speed, not near sprinting) is floating towards the UNC bench as if expecting Roy to call timeout. If Roy wasn't an idiot who is locked into a preconceived idea of how to coach (according to the Rules of the Great Dean Smith), he would have called a timeout and set something up for his unfocused team.

Ed Hardin noted in his column that you can see that Brice Johnson doesn't want the responsibility of taking the last shot. Marcus Paige actually runs out of bounds so that he doesn't have to take the last shot. Kennedy Meek is frozen to one spot, so badly does he not want to take the last shot. Justin Jackson can't get rid of the ball fast enough when Berry gives it to him briefly -- he doesn't want to take the last shot.

I would add that it looks to me like Ol'Roy doesn't want the responsibility to set up the last shot.

royalblue
02-19-2016, 06:39 PM
This basketball game was berry berry good to the Devils
Going to this game at the last min was like a fairy tale. Anything else they accomplish this season is gravy. I don't ever remember feeling like I do after this game. This was utterly fantastic thank you team and coach K for these incredible last 3 games. K continues to do amazing things year after year.

PS during at least 2 of the TV time outs K used the whole time and maybe even too long to coach the team while the heels were back on the court waiting to go. Just an observation that I thought was interesting at the time and even more so after the finish.
Go Devils

Indoor66
02-19-2016, 06:51 PM
This basketball game was berry berry good to the Devils
Going to this game at the last min was like a fairy tale. Anything else they accomplish this season is gravy. I don't ever remember feeling like I do after this game. This was utterly fantastic thank you team and coach K for these incredible last 3 games. K continues to do amazing things year after year.

PS during at least 2 of the TV time outs K used the whole time and maybe even too long to coach the team while the heels were back on the court waiting to go. Just an observation that I thought was interesting at the time and even more so after the finish.
Go Devils

What the heck would Roy have to say with the additional time? Maybe "Dean said...."

NSDukeFan
02-19-2016, 07:03 PM
"The harder I practice, the luckier I get." - Gary Player after sinking a shot from a sand trap. You have to practice to have the situational awareness to handle end of game situations. It takes mental toughness and training.

I really like that quote.
In defense of not calling a timeout, do you want to give the perhaps GOAT time to set up a defense against which your play call may get punched in the mouth?