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pfrduke
02-15-2016, 11:18 AM
The top half of the ACC remains clustered after an eventful week. UNC's one-game lead on the field looks big in part because the difference between 2nd (Miami) and 8th (Syracuse or Clemson) is just a game and a half. Eight teams remain above .500 and while Clemson and Syracuse, with 5 losses, are almost certainly out of the race for 1st, every one of the other top 6 teams has to feel like they have a legitimate shot at the #1 seed.* Once again, we get some great matchups among those top teams this week. The sorting continues...

*for Louisville, change "#1 seed" to "regular season title"

Monday
[2]Virginia hosts [66]NC State (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday
[60]Pittsburgh hosts [134]Wake Forest (7:00, ESPNU).

Wednesday
[10]Louisville hosts [31]Syracuse (7:00, ESPN)
[50]Clemson hosts [247]Boston College (7:00, ESPN3)
[7]North Carolina hosts [11]Duke (9:00, ESPN)
[12]Miami hosts [106]Virginia Tech (9:00, ESPN3)
[44]Florida State hosts [76]Georgia Tech (9:00, ESPN3)

Thursday is dark

Friday is dark

Saturday
[10]Louisville hosts [11]Duke (12:00, ESPN)
[7]North Carolina hosts [12]Miami (1:00, CBS)
[31]Syracuse hosts [60]Pittsburgh (2:00, ESPN2)
[106]Virginia Tech hosts [44]Florida State (3:00, ESPN3)
[66]NC State hosts [50]Clemson (3:00, ESPN3)
[76]Georgia Tech hosts [25]Notre Dame (8:00, ESPN2)

Sunday
[134]Wake Forest hosts [247]Boston College (6:30, ESPNU)

CDu
02-15-2016, 12:39 PM
For the bubble teams, it's a middling week this week in advance of a monster week next week:

Pitt (16-7, RPI 41, 6-6 vs top-100): hosts Wake in a game they pretty much have to win, then they travel to Syracuse
FSU (16-9, RPI 51, 5-9 vs top-100): hosts Ga Tech in a game they pretty much have to win, then they travel to Va Tech in a game they also pretty much have to win
Clemson (15-10, RPI 87, 8-8 vs top-150, 3-7 in road/neutral games): hosts BC in what should be a cakewalk, then travel to NC State for one of their last "big" tests (since they stink at winning on the road)

They need to avoid looking ahead to the following week's games (Pitt has Duke and Louisville; FSU has Duke and Notre Dame; Clemson has UVa) if they want to give themselves their best shot to make the tournament.

Olympic Fan
02-16-2016, 09:52 AM
Dominant second half performance by Virginia last night in beating NC State.

The Pack came out hot, scoring 15 points in their first seven possessions. They then scored 16 in the final 16 minutes of the first half and 22 more in the second half (and six of those came after Bennett cleared his bench in the final two minutes).

Brogdon again displayed his defensive mojo. Perrantes started on Barber, who scored five points in State's opening run. At that point, Brogdon took the Pack point guard and held him to nine points the rest of the way (he was 2-for-2 vs. Perrantes; 2-for 9 against Brogdon). Barber had two assists and five turnovers. Brogdon scored 22 (on 9-of-13 shooting) and had five assists and one turnover.

It was an interesting data point in the ACC Player of the Year race ... I can still see that one up for debate. But is there even another viable candidate for ACC defensive player of the year?

Troublemaker
02-16-2016, 10:04 AM
But is there even another viable candidate for ACC defensive player of the year?

No, I think Brogdon's got it. Especially since last season it went to Darion Atkins.

CDu
02-16-2016, 10:05 AM
It was an interesting data point in the ACC Player of the Year race ... I can still see that one up for debate. But is there even another viable candidate for ACC defensive player of the year?

Agreed - Brogdon should run away with the DPoY award for the ACC. He's been fantastic. In other years, a guy with a ton of blocks or steals might sneak up and steal the award based on lazy voters, but I don't think we have anyone that stands out sufficiently enough in either category. In terms of ability to lock down an opposing star, nobody has done it better or as consistently as Brogdon has this year. It's amazing that he's not only been an elite defender but also the best offensive player on the Cavs' team.

vick
02-16-2016, 10:44 AM
It was an interesting data point in the ACC Player of the Year race ... I can still see that one up for debate. But is there even another viable candidate for ACC defensive player of the year?

I think POY is up for debate too, but I think Barber is pretty solidly behind Brogdon, Allen, and Johnson at this point (things could of course change).

Also agree that Brogdon is a virtual lock for DPOY right now. Maybe could have made a contrarian case for Onuaku a couple of weeks ago, but Brogdon has just been phenomenal on defense lately, on national TV no less (shouldn't matter, but probably does).

CameronDuke
02-16-2016, 10:55 AM
Has there been an occurrence of a player winning ACC POY and ACC DPOY in the same season? Brogdon looks like both to me right now. He's playing like the best player in the conference on both sides of the ball to me. I think it would be hard to win both, but my vote would be him for both awards right now. I hope he wins ACC POY. I think he's a lock for ACC DPOY.

I also think Virginia is still going to win the ACC regular season title. If they can take care of Miami on the road and take care of UNC in Charlottesville, they will be sitting pretty. No other games on their schedule will they be an underdog in. Heck, they may even be favored at Miami. I think the UNC at UVA game may be even, virtually a pick em.

Virginia also doesn't play Miami until next Monday. That's 7 days between games they have to prepare for the road game at Miami. They then play UNC 5 days later in Charlottesville. They will be well rested and well prepared for both games. They only have 4 ACC games left to Duke's six games left. This is the time of year where rest is huge and Virginia will be well rested coming down the final stretch.

UNC still has Duke twice, vs Miami, and at UVA (plus at NC State and vs Syracuse). If they lose two of those, that's a success for them to me as its a crazy tough backloaded schedule for UNC. That would put UNC at 14-4. If that happens and UVA wins out, UVA gets the tie breaker. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

CDu
02-16-2016, 11:11 AM
UNC still has Duke twice, vs Miami, and at UVA (plus at NC State and vs Syracuse). If they lose two of those, that's a success for them to me as its a crazy tough backloaded schedule for UNC. That would put UNC at 14-4. If that happens and UVA wins out, UVA gets the tie breaker. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Yes, that is correct, as UVa winning out requires a win over UNC and a win over Miami (the two teams ahead of UVa) and at least one loss for Duke (the only relevant team with the tiebreaker over UVa) to UNC.

I think the two most likely winners of the ACC are UVa and UNC, probably in that order. But if UNC beats UVa or sweeps Duke, then UNC is the odds-on favorite to win the regular season title.

Tom B.
02-16-2016, 11:12 AM
Has there been an occurrence of a player winning ACC POY and ACC DPOY in the same season?

Tim Duncan won ACC POY and National DPOY in the same year twice, in 1996 and 1997. But I don't recall if Duncan won ACC DPOY in either of those seasons, and I can't seem to find an answer online.

vick
02-16-2016, 11:45 AM
Tim Duncan won ACC POY and National DPOY in the same year twice, in 1996 and 1997. But I don't recall if Duncan won ACC DPOY in either of those seasons, and I can't seem to find an answer online.

I don't believe they gave it before 2005, at least, it's not in the media guide (http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2015-16_m-baskbl_guide.pdf) (PDF, pg. 125)

JasonEvans
02-16-2016, 11:54 AM
I don't believe they gave it before 2005, at least, it's not in the media guide (http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2015-16_m-baskbl_guide.pdf) (PDF, pg. 125)

If they had, then Battier would have won both in 2001. He and Duncan are the two guys who immediately come to mind as truly elite defensive players who were also ACC POYs.

-Jason "CWell might haev had a shot at it in 2000, but Battier was around then too, so CC would not have been ACC DPOY had they been giving one out that year" Evans

Tom B.
02-16-2016, 12:08 PM
If they had, then Battier would have won both in 2001. He and Duncan are the two guys who immediately come to mind as truly elite defensive players who were also ACC POYs.

And like Duncan, Shane won ACC POY* in the same year he won the National DPOY Award (2001).



*Well, he shared it with Joe Forte. Still a travesty.

JasonEvans
02-16-2016, 12:15 PM
*Well, he shared it with Joe Forte. Still a travesty.

Not that it matters in a college conference POY race but...

Know how many points Joe Forte scored in his NBA career?

30

-Jason "he makes Will Avery look like a NBA all-star!" Evans

CDu
02-16-2016, 12:27 PM
Not that it matters in a college conference POY race but...

Know how many points Joe Forte scored in his NBA career?

30

-Jason "he makes Will Avery look like a NBA all-star!" Evans

Sadly, that's 30 more than the previous year's ACC PoY.

Olympic Fan
02-16-2016, 02:51 PM
And like Duncan, Shane won ACC POY* in the same year he won the National DPOY Award (2001).



*Well, he shared it with Joe Forte. Still a travesty.

It's kind of interesting to look this up. Grant Hill was DPOY and ACCPOY and NPOY -- but not in the same year. He won the NDPOY in 1993 and the POY awards in 1994.

Battier did indeed win NDPOY and NPOY in 2001 ... but he shared the ACC POY with Forte (I agree, an absolute joke). He also shared the DUKE defensive player of the year award with freshman Chris Duhon!

Vick is right -- the ACC only began voting on defensive player of the year in 2005 and since then, nobody has won both DPOY and ACC POY.

But for almost 20 years before the official ACC defensive award, Barry Jacobs was polling the coaches to pick an all-defensive team and a DPOY.

I don't have the whole list, but I'm sure both Battier in 2001 and Grant Hill in 1994 won both awards.

CDu
02-16-2016, 03:00 PM
It's kind of interesting to look this up. Grant Hill was DPOY and ACCPOY and NPOY -- but not in the same year. He won the NDPOY in 1993 and the POY awards in 1994.

Battier did indeed win NDPOY and NPOY in 2001 ... but he shared the ACC POY with Forte (I agree, an absolute joke). He also shared the DUKE defensive player of the year award with freshman Chris Duhon!

Vick is right -- the ACC only began voting on defensive player of the year in 2005 and since then, nobody has won both DPOY and ACC POY.

But for almost 20 years before the official ACC defensive award, Barry Jacobs was polling the coaches to pick an all-defensive team and a DPOY.

I don't have the whole list, but I'm sure both Battier in 2001 and Grant Hill in 1994 won both awards.

I suspect that Battier (for sure), Hill, Duncan (for sure), and perhaps Jordan would have likely won both had both been awarded prior to 2005. Perhaps there were some even further back, but I really don't know.

Tom B.
02-16-2016, 03:30 PM
It's kind of interesting to look this up. Grant Hill was DPOY and ACCPOY and NPOY -- but not in the same year. He won the NDPOY in 1993 and the POY awards in 1994.


Yes, Grant Hill was NDPOY in 1993 -- but in 1994, it was Jim McIlvaine of Marquette. Grant then congratulated McIlvaine on his award by memorably posterizing him when Duke and Marquette met in the Sweet 16.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFzPgHdaSfM

tbyers11
02-16-2016, 08:07 PM
Haven't seen this anywhere on the board yet so this seems like a good spot

Anas Mahmoud has been shut down (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14783874/anas-mahmoud-louisville-cardinals-final-6-games-ankle-injury) for the rest of the season after spraining his ankle in practice.

Particularly relevant as we play the Cardinals again on Saturday. He made a lot of nice plays on both ends of the floor against us last time. Definitely weakens UL a bit.

CDu
02-16-2016, 09:16 PM
Pitt is now in 2OT at home vs Wake. This would be a horrible loss for them and would put them very much on the tourney hotseat.

El_Diablo
02-16-2016, 09:17 PM
Wake and Pitt are locked in quite the battle over who most wants to lose.

tbyers11
02-16-2016, 09:24 PM
Wake and Pitt are locked in quite the battle over who most wants to lose.

This is the perfect description of this game

Olympic Fan
02-17-2016, 01:15 AM
Pitt hangs on to outlast Wake Forest, thanks to James Robinson, who barely missed a triple double (21 points, 10 rebounds and nine assists).

Either team could have won easily by making their free throws. Wake was worse -- 16 of 32 from the line, but Pitt missed a ton down the stretch, including 3-of-4 in the last 10 seconds of regulation -- just 2 of 4 would have given them the win without overtime.

Pitt's shooting in the last 10 minutes was horrific, but Wake's bonehead decisions were even harder to watch.

Can I make one observation about Danny Manning's game management?

With just over two minutes left, Wake scores to go up five points. But Manning has his best player, Devin Thomas on the bench -- not foul trouble (Thomas had 3 PFs at that point).

Without Thomas in the game, Pitt comes down and misses four straight shots -- but gets four straight offensive rebounds ... before finally scoring to cut the lead to three. At the other end, Wake runs two straight possessions without getting a shot (well, on the first one, they did get a 400-foot airball to beat the shot clock ... the other one they didn't come close to getting a shot off). Pitt scores twice to go up one. Thomas comes back into the game, they go to him and he scores easily.

If I were a Wake fan, I'd really be second-guessing Manning's decision to have Thomas on the bench with the victory right there for the taking.

I did love the play Wake ran coming out of a timeout with about 30 seconds left in the first OT and the game tied. The Deacs run a lob to Thomas, but the ball is knocked away and bounces straight to Mitilglou, who hits a 3 (very much like the lucky play that led to Allen's key 3 against NC State). Great call by Manning!

FerryFor50
02-17-2016, 10:57 AM
If I were a Wake fan, I'd really be second-guessing Manning's decision to have Thomas on the bench with the victory right there for the taking.



That's the 2nd time this season he's kept Thomas on the bench with a game's outcome in the balance.

CDu
02-17-2016, 01:01 PM
Pitt hangs on to outlast Wake Forest, thanks to James Robinson, who barely missed a triple double (21 points, 10 rebounds and nine assists).

It was a huge win (or I guess more accurately a huge non-loss) for Pitt. Losing at home to Wake would have really hurt their tourney chances. They still have a tough road ahead, as all five of their remaining games could be losses (@Syracuse, vs Duke, vs Louisville, @Va Tech, @Ga Tech). If they finish 9-9 in conference by losing to Cuse, Duke, and UL, they would then be 3-7 or 3-8 against the top-50 and 6-10 against the top-100. That resume probably gets them into the NIT. But losing to Wake would make it that much more likely that they'd be NIT bound. They need to make some noise in their next three games.


Can I make one observation about Danny Manning's game management?

With just over two minutes left, Wake scores to go up five points. But Manning has his best player, Devin Thomas on the bench -- not foul trouble (Thomas had 3 PFs at that point).

Without Thomas in the game, Pitt comes down and misses four straight shots -- but gets four straight offensive rebounds ... before finally scoring to cut the lead to three. At the other end, Wake runs two straight possessions without getting a shot (well, on the first one, they did get a 400-foot airball to beat the shot clock ... the other one they didn't come close to getting a shot off). Pitt scores twice to go up one. Thomas comes back into the game, they go to him and he scores easily.

If I were a Wake fan, I'd really be second-guessing Manning's decision to have Thomas on the bench with the victory right there for the taking.

Yeah, that really is strange, especially given that he's easily their best player. And the alternatives are really not good.

Olympic Fan
02-18-2016, 02:49 AM
I know Duke's win at UNC was the big one ... but it wasn't the only ACC game last night.

Miami and Clemson beat teams they needed to beat. They didn't help themselves much, but a loss would have been crushing. On the other hand, I don't think the Syracuse loss at Louisville will hurt the Orange that much.

But Florida State lost at home to Georgia Tech. That's a HUGE loss for the Seminoles. They've now lost three straight and have to be outside the NCAA bubble at the moment.

I think Clemson is out at the moment too, but the Tigers seem to have a better chance to play themselves into the field than the Seminoles.

FSU is at Virginia Tech Saturday, then they visit Duke. They are teetering on the edge of NCAA elimination.

CDu
02-18-2016, 07:36 AM
I know Duke's win at UNC was the big one ... but it wasn't the only ACC game last night.

Miami and Clemson beat teams they needed to beat. They didn't help themselves much, but a loss would have been crushing. On the other hand, I don't think the Syracuse loss at Louisville will hurt the Orange that much.

But Florida State lost at home to Georgia Tech. That's a HUGE loss for the Seminoles. They've now lost three straight and have to be outside the NCAA bubble at the moment.

I think Clemson is out at the moment too, but the Tigers seem to have a better chance to play themselves into the field than the Seminoles.

FSU is at Virginia Tech Saturday, then they visit Duke. They are teetering on the edge of NCAA elimination.

Yeah, that is a perfect summary of the situation. With FSU's resume and upcoming schedule, last night's game was one that they realistically HAD to win. They aren't dead yet, but their backs are against the wall for sure.

CDu
02-18-2016, 01:18 PM
At this point, I think that UVa, Duke, UNC, Miami, and Notre Dame have stamped their tickets. It's just a matter of seeding for these teams now.

Syracuse is close to stamping their ticket. They're #39 in RPI, and they are 3-4 vs the RPI top-25 and 5-6 overall against the RPI top-50. They play Pitt on Saturday, and a win against the Panthers (or even a win against NC St next week or @FSU in the season finale) probably seals their bid. It's just all about avoiding a collapse down the stretch. I think their resume is strong enough that they get in even with a 9-9 ACC mark. They could potentially get in with an 8-10 mark if that didn't imply a 5-game losing streak to end their regular season. So they just need to win at least one of those three very winnable games coming up.

Pittsburgh is next in line. Frankly, their resume stinks. They are RPI #42, but that is the only positive thing I can say for them. They are 2-5 against the RPI top-50 and 5-7 against the RPI top-100. That's not good. They have a weak out of conference resume, too, so they don't have those signature out-of-conference wins. And they are at 7-6 in the conference, with games to go against @Syracuse, Louisville, and Duke before going on the road against both Tech schools. Unlike Syracuse, I don't think that a 9-9 conference record will get them into the tournament. They need to beat at least one of the tourney-caliber teams left on their schedule, otherwise they are going to the NIT. And they probably can't afford to lose to either of the Tech schools.

FSU has dropped to #64 in the RPI, and are just 2-7 against the RPI top-50. Their profile looks really weak at the moment, and they are probably on the outside looking in. They aren't helped by a very weak non-con schedule, but basically what they've done is avoiding losing to bad teams while failing to beat many good teams. They are just 7-10 against the RPI top-100.

Clemson is sort of an anomaly. They are sitting at 9-5 in conference, and they are 3-3 against the top-25 and 5-5 against the top-50. They have some serious scalps on their resume. But they are just 7-7 against the top-100 and they have 3 awful (sub-150) losses. So they have an RPI of #90. They probably need to go 11-7 in conference to even have a chance at making the tournament, because their out of conference schedule was atrocious (#335) and they didn't do well against that out of conference schedule. They have only one more game that can help their resume, playing host to UVa in the final week of the season. But they are just so far down in the RPI that it's hard to see them covering up that number. And if they lose any of their non-UVa games (@Ga Tech, @State, or least likely @BC), that could torpedo any chance they have. And for a team that is just 3-7 on the road, it's a real concern that 3 of their last 4 are outside of SC. That's certainly 3 winnable games, but those games aren't likely to help their RPI a ton either (only Ga Tech is ahead of them in RPI aside from UVa).

If I had to guess right now, I'd say that Syracuse joins the "locks" (and that's not a bold prediction). Pitt is a wild card, as they muck up each game so much that they could conceivably pull off the upset. I don't think FSU or Clemson (who I think will lose either to Ga Tech or State or both along with UVa) will get in. They'll all have their chances to make their case though. Should be a fun stretch run.

Tripping William
02-19-2016, 04:02 PM
Wake's downward spiral (http://www.journalnow.com/sports/wfu/basketball/thomas-suspended-hudson-dismissed-from-wake-forest-men-s-basketball/article_078aef4a-85bf-5c42-b568-6e189ac52032.html) continues: Devin Thomas suspended for two games, and Cornelius Hudson booted from the team. So much for BC going winless, I suppose . . . . . .

FerryFor50
02-19-2016, 04:25 PM
Wake's downward spiral (http://www.journalnow.com/sports/wfu/basketball/thomas-suspended-hudson-dismissed-from-wake-forest-men-s-basketball/article_078aef4a-85bf-5c42-b568-6e189ac52032.html) continues: Devin Thomas suspended for two games, and Cornelius Hudson booted from the team. So much for BC going winless, I suppose . . . . . .

Weird. Devin Thomas always seemed to have such a positive, winning attitude.. :rolleyes:

Bob Green
02-20-2016, 06:41 AM
Saturday
[10]Louisville hosts [11]Duke (12:00, ESPN)
[7]North Carolina hosts [12]Miami (1:00, CBS)
[31]Syracuse hosts [60]Pittsburgh (2:00, ESPN2)
[106]Virginia Tech hosts [44]Florida State (3:00, ESPN3)
[66]NC State hosts [50]Clemson (3:00, ESPN3)
[76]Georgia Tech hosts [25]Notre Dame (8:00, ESPN2)



Looking at today's line-up, there are several games with post season implications. With 10 losses, Clemson is squarely on the bubble and cannot afford to lose at State. The same can be said for FSU at Virginia Tech. Most likely neither Clemson nor FSU makes the NCAAT unless they win out or come close to winning out. Clemson has a legitimate chance to go 3-1 down the stretch to finish at 19-11. The Tigers last three games are against Georgia Tech, Virginia and Boston College. FSU has a tough schedule with games against Duke, Notre Dame and Syracuse. The bottom line for today is both Clemson and FSU desperately need to win on the road to keep post season dreams alive.

The Miami at UNC game impacts ACCT seeding as the teams are currently tied for 1st Place at 10-3. A Carolina victory would seemingly benefit Duke, but I'll still pull for the 'Canes today and hope Miami drops subsequent game(s) against Virginia, Louisville and Notre Dame.

Of course, it goes without saying, the most important game today is the first one. A Duke victory over Louisville would mean a 4-0 record during possibly the toughest stretch of the regular season schedule.

dukelifer
02-20-2016, 02:47 PM
UNC crushing Miami. Guess they got the message.

CDu
02-20-2016, 02:48 PM
So Thomas will be out for our game? If so, that is convenient for us. Wake is not good, but Wake without Thomas is REALLY not good.

tbyers11
02-20-2016, 02:54 PM
So Thomas will be out for our game? If so, that is convenient for us. Wake is not good, but Wake without Thomas is REALLY not good.

No. He is out two games BC and ND. He'll be back by our game on March 1st

El_Diablo
02-20-2016, 02:54 PM
So Thomas will be out for our game? If so, that is convenient for us. Wake is not good, but Wake without Thomas is REALLY not good.

No, we aren't playing them until 3/1. He will be out for BC and ND but will be back for VT and Duke.

CDu
02-20-2016, 02:56 PM
No, we aren't playing them until 3/1. He will be out for BC and ND but will be back for VT and Duke.

Ah, got my games mixed up. Oh well, we should still win that one either way.

jipops
02-20-2016, 03:01 PM
UNC crushing Miami. Guess they got the message.

Makes me wonder a little if the Duke loss will be the turning point in their season.

Doria
02-20-2016, 03:34 PM
It hardly seems likely, but I could actually see them winning today (as they did) and losing at NCSU. That seems exactly like a Carolina turnaround. Still, the odds hardly favor it this season, unfortunately.

dukelifer
02-20-2016, 04:15 PM
Makes me wonder a little if the Duke loss will be the turning point in their season.

Wonder that as well. Still not sure they can win it all without great guard play. Looks like the bench played well today and the main guys not so much.

Duke79UNLV77
02-20-2016, 04:30 PM
Wonder that as well. Still not sure they can win it all without great guard play. Looks like the bench played well today and the main guys not so much.

Amazing that about 90% of the IC board was ready to run Ole Roy out of town, or at least into a retirement home, after Wednesday, and now, with all of the other top team's losses, they may still be in line for a 1 seed.

Now, there are plenty of other reasons to run Ole Roy out of town, but none of those seem to bother IC.

brevity
02-20-2016, 04:51 PM
UNC crushing Miami. Guess they got the message.

Oklahoma and Iowa (and Maryland) lost this week, so UNC should move up to at least #3 in both polls, with #2 Kansas still playing today. They have a strong argument after whipping Miami and losing to Duke on a technicality*.

* UNC forgot to score more points.

devildeac
02-20-2016, 04:53 PM
Oklahoma and Iowa (and Maryland) lost this week, so UNC should move up to at least #3 in both polls, with #2 Kansas still playing today. They have a strong argument after whipping Miami and losing to Duke on a technicality*.

* UNC forgot to score more points.

Nice of the U not to show up today.

Olympic Fan
02-21-2016, 12:33 AM
Terrible Saturday for two of the three ACC bubble teams --

Clemson goes to NC State and loses a game where Cat Barber scores one (1) field goal.

Florida State chokes in the final four minutes to lose a game at Virginia Tech that they led all the way.

Both teams are in deep, deep doo-doo (otherwise known as the NIT).

On the other hand, Pitt really helped themselves today with a win at Syracuse ...

sandinmyshoes
02-21-2016, 07:45 AM
Makes me wonder a little if the Duke loss will be the turning point in their season.

I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.

Or, more likely, UNC is what it has been. When you play against them you are playing against an erratic bomb. When a couple of their guys are hitting threes they are probably the most dangerous team in college basketball. When they are shooting three point blanks, you just crowd the paint thereby taking away both their drives and their bigs. When they get frustrated just about anyone can beat them. Even, say, Northern Iowa or whatever.

I am glad, however, to see that the Williams kid is okay. I didn't see it live, but the replays of his fall looked nasty. I'll bet it frightened his parents half to death.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-21-2016, 10:21 AM
For all the second guessing here and from many of UNC's own fans, coach Williams has the Heels in the conference lead deep into the season. People can criticize all they want, but the man can coach.

They way people disrespect his coaching is ridiculous. The guy has won about 80% of the games he's ever been involved in.

After the tough 1 pt loss where they struggled once again to close out a good team, coach got the team refocused and spanked the second best team in the ACC like a red headed step child with the top spot in the standings on the line.

And he did it his way, ignoring the media and all the other noise, by playing deep into his bench and demanding contributions from every player who took the floor.

This team is very good. But they are not great. They don't have "that player" to put them on that next level, but they have high quality balance.

When the balance is clicking, inside and out, and they are playing with confidence and commitment, it's the best team in the country.

Their challenge is to harness the mental focus, energy and toughness to handle the tight games and close them out. These players have struggled with that consistency their whole careers and they just have to keep working on it and do a better job executing the end game.

Roy's teams typically get mentally stronger deeper in the season as they get comfortable with the rotations.
The next game at UVA will tell us a lot about just how mentally focused they are. I was impressed they came back from the rival loss so well, I admit I had my doubts this team would respond that strong in beating Miami.

A UVA win or loss is not what I'll be looking for, I'll be looking at how they play.

Tourney time is just around the corner, and the real fun begins. Bring it on.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-21-2016, 11:08 AM
For all the second guessing here and from many of UNC's own fans, coach Williams has the Heels in the conference lead deep into the season. People can criticize all they want, but the man can coach.

They way people disrespect his coaching is ridiculous. The guy has won about 80% of the games he's ever been involved in.

After the tough 1 pt loss where they struggled once again to close out a good team, coach got the team refocused and spanked the second best team in the ACC like a red headed step child with the top spot in the standings on the line.

And he did it his way, ignoring the media and all the other noise, by playing deep into his bench and demanding contributions from every player who took the floor.

This team is very good. But they are not great. They don't have "that player" to put them on that next level, but they have high quality balance.

When the balance is clicking, inside and out, and they are playing with confidence and commitment, it's the best team in the country.

Their challenge is to harness the mental focus, energy and toughness to handle the tight games and close them out. These players have struggled with that consistency their whole careers and they just have to keep working on it and do a better job executing the end game.

Roy's teams typically get mentally stronger deeper in the season as they get comfortable with the rotations.
The next game at UVA will tell us a lot about just how mentally focused they are. I was impressed they came back from the rival loss so well, I admit I had my doubts this team would respond that strong in beating Miami.

A UVA win or loss is not what I'll be looking for, I'll be looking at how they play.

Tourney time is just around the corner, and the real fun begins. Bring it on.
I thought it was the players' job to be motivated, energetic and give full effort... not the coach's job.

Maybe Roy was watching K and learned something?

Furniture
02-21-2016, 11:18 AM
5997

szstark
02-21-2016, 11:21 AM
For all the second guessing here and from many of UNC's own fans, coach Williams has the Heels in the conference lead deep into the season. People can criticize all they want, but the man can coach.

They way people disrespect his coaching is ridiculous. The guy has won about 80% of the games he's ever been involved in.

After the tough 1 pt loss where they struggled once again to close out a good team, coach got the team refocused and spanked the second best team in the ACC like a red headed step child with the top spot in the standings on the line.

And he did it his way, ignoring the media and all the other noise, by playing deep into his bench and demanding contributions from every player who took the floor.

This team is very good. But they are not great. They don't have "that player" to put them on that next level, but they have high quality balance.

When the balance is clicking, inside and out, and they are playing with confidence and commitment, it's the best team in the country.

Their challenge is to harness the mental focus, energy and toughness to handle the tight games and close them out. These players have struggled with that consistency their whole careers and they just have to keep working on it and do a better job executing the end game.

Roy's teams typically get mentally stronger deeper in the season as they get comfortable with the rotations.
The next game at UVA will tell us a lot about just how mentally focused they are. I was impressed they came back from the rival loss so well, I admit I had my doubts this team would respond that strong in beating Miami.

A UVA win or loss is not what I'll be looking for, I'll be looking at how they play.

Tourney time is just around the corner, and the real fun begins. Bring it on.

Would you please just stop. We really appreciate when you come here and make insightful comments, but don't come here and insult every red headed child in the world! Your defense of Williams is also getting old. Your argument that he has won 80% of his games is almost meaningless. Did you ever consider that with the talent he has had, maybe he should have won more than 80%? The argument that his teams get mentally tougher as the season goes on is almost laughable. What empirical data is that based on? One win over Miami? Maybe they should be mentally tougher earlier in the season. So if they play well but lose, you are happy with the result? That's as astounding as William's halftime comment Wednesday that he doesn't care how many points the opposition scores as long as his team scores more. Now there's a winning strategy for you. If you were posting just to get a reaction, congratulations, you succeeded.

freshmanjs
02-21-2016, 11:24 AM
That's as astounding as William's halftime comment Wednesday that he doesn't care how many points the opposition scores as long as his team scores more. Now there's a winning strategy for you.

Why is that astounding? I though it was the right response to a stupid question. The game was played at a very high pace. A comment like "you gave up 42 points" is ludicrous. He was right to point out that the absolute number of points given up doesn't matter at all, only the relative.

vick
02-21-2016, 11:27 AM
Would you please just stop. We really appreciate when you come here and make insightful comments, but don't come here and insult every red headed child in the world! Your defense of Williams is also getting old. Your argument that he has won 80% of his games is almost meaningless. Did you ever consider that with the talent he has had, maybe he should have won more than 80%? The argument that his teams get mentally tougher as the season goes on is almost laughable. What empirical data is that based on? One win over Miami? Maybe they should be mentally tougher earlier in the season. So if they play well but lose, you are happy with the result? That's as astounding as William's halftime comment Wednesday that he doesn't care how many points the opposition scores as long as his team scores more. Now there's a winning strategy for you. If you were posting just to get a reaction, congratulations, you succeeded.

In college basketball, getting and maintaining talent is part of good coaching. It's almost certainly the most valuable thing college coaches do, actually.

szstark
02-21-2016, 11:42 AM
Why is that astounding? I though it was the right response to a stupid question. The game was played at a very high pace. A comment like "you gave up 42 points" is ludicrous. He was right to point out that the absolute number of points given up doesn't matter at all, only the relative.

It's not a stupid question if you believe defense is an important part of the game. Stopping the opponent from scoring is just as important as scoring yourself. Do you really believe K said at halftime "giving up 46 points was fine, you just didn't score enough"? I think a coaching philosophy of "just score more than they do" is a bit simplistic, certainly for a coach of a major college team and maybe even for anyone other than a casual fan.

freshmanjs
02-21-2016, 11:45 AM
It's not a stupid question if you believe defense is an important part of the game. Stopping the opponent from scoring is just as important as scoring yourself. Do you really believe K said at halftime "giving up 46 points was fine, you just didn't score enough"? I think a coaching philosophy of "just score more than they do" is a bit simplistic, certainly for a coach of a major college team and maybe even for anyone other than a casual fan.

I think Coach K was probably happier with the 80 we gave up against NC State on Feb 6 than with the 64 we gave up against Syracuse. Were you not? (looking at absolute number of points without accounting for pace is a really basic error that even a slightly knowlegable casual fan wouldn't make).

You really are missing the point entirely. It's not AT ALL that defense doesn't matter. It's that absolute # of points scored in a half is a terrible (incredibly naive and insight-less) way to measure quality of defensive play.

szstark
02-21-2016, 12:24 PM
I think Coach K was probably happier with the 80 we gave up against NC State on Feb 6 than with the 64 we gave up against Syracuse. Were you not? (looking at absolute number of points without accounting for pace is a really basic error that even a slightly knowlegable casual fan wouldn't make).

You really are missing the point entirely. It's not AT ALL that defense doesn't matter. It's that absolute # of points scored in a half is a terrible (incredibly naive and insight-less) way to measure quality of defensive play.

If your argument is that the team with the most points wins, then there is no argument. If the pace of play is fast or slow, the argument doesn't change - the team with the most points still wins. Why then even worry about pace of play? Just score more points. That's where you are missing the point (no pun intended). Some teams slow the pace of play because they figure that is the best way to score more points than their opponent. It could be because they want to limit the number of possessions of a highly skilled offensive team or their own team might not have good shooters or they are slower than the opponents or whatever. Other teams emphasize playing tough defense no matter what the pace of play is. Part of scoring more points than your opponents is stopping them from scoring a lot of points. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a coach how he intends to limit the opposition's scoring in the second half. William's answer was either disingenuous or indicative of a coaching philosophy as ridged and restrictive as his later statement that he doesn't call timeouts at the end of games because that's how Dean Smith taught him to coach.

freshmanjs
02-21-2016, 12:26 PM
If your argument is that the team with the most points wins, then there is no argument. If the pace of play is fast or slow, the argument doesn't change - the team with the most points still wins. Why then even worry about pace of play? Just score more points. That's where you are missing the point (no pun intended). Some teams slow the pace of play because they figure that is the best way to score more points than their opponent. It could be because they want to limit the number of possessions of a highly skilled offensive team or their own team might not have good shooters or they are slower than the opponents or whatever. Other teams emphasize playing tough defense no matter what the pace of play is. Part of scoring more points than your opponents is stopping them from scoring a lot of points. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a coach how he intends to limit the opposition's scoring in the second half. William's answer was either disingenuous or indicative of a coaching philosophy as ridged and restrictive as his later statement that he doesn't call timeouts at the end of games because that's how Dean Smith taught him to coach.

Exactly. Roy's philosophy is to play fast. He thinks high pace helps them. That's why he's not fussed about 42 points, nor should he be.

Olympic Fan
02-21-2016, 12:27 PM
I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. Or, more likely, UNC is what it has been. When you play against them you are playing against an erratic bomb. When a couple of their guys are hitting threes they are probably the most dangerous team in college basketball. When they are shooting three point blanks, you just crowd the paint thereby taking away both their drives and their bigs. When they get frustrated just about anyone can beat them. Even, say, Northern Iowa or whatever.

I am glad, however, to see that the Williams kid is okay. I didn't see it live, but the replays of his fall looked nasty. I'll bet it frightened his parents half to death.

I love thus quote -- and how many people seem to think it's an actual quote from Admiral Yamamoto ... I actually saw it used in what was supposed to be a real non-fiction history of the Pacific War.

The line actually comes from Hideo Oguni, who wrote the Japanese portion of the screenplay for the movie Tora, Tora, Tora. It was made up by Oguni. Yamamoto expressed some doubts about the wisdom of going to war with America, but he was the main proponent of the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Pardon me for briefly hijacking the thread, but with Wheat and company taking it off the road to become (another) referendum on Roy's coaching chops, I don't feel too guilty.

BTW, I agree with sand's point that the Miami win merely reflects the erratic nature of this UNC game ... they can be very good when everything is going right, but hat doesn't mean they re a great team.

szstark
02-21-2016, 01:02 PM
Exactly. Roy's philosophy is to play fast. He thinks high pace helps them. That's why he's not fussed about 42 points, nor should he be.

I think Roy would have been better off if Duke had only scored 40.

DU82
02-21-2016, 01:07 PM
For all the second guessing here and from many of UNC's own fans, coach Williams has the Heels in the conference lead deep into the season. People can criticize all they want, but the man can coach.

They way people disrespect his coaching is ridiculous. The guy has won about 80% of the games he's ever been involved in.


So has Coach P.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-21-2016, 02:39 PM
I thought it was the players' job to be motivated, energetic and give full effort... not the coach's job.

Maybe Roy was watching K and learned something?

It is a players game at the end of the day. Coaches lead, players play.

Some days I just wake up and see the double standard applied to Roy Williams, not just by Duke fans, and decide to speak out and defend the coach of the team I support. This is probably not the best place to do it, I know that, and I do understand it's a Duke board, but you guys wouldn't respect me in the morning if it didn't.

Roy wins a greater % of games than any active coach (https://sportslistoftheday.com/2012/12/21/top-20-college-basketball-coaches-with-the-highest-winning-percentages/) in the college game. That's just a fact. He is also well on his way to a very good recruiting classes the next few years. He is an excellent coach.

What I'm talking about, for example, is I haven't seen...and shouldn't...any comments about coach K getting the technical, losing his composure, and allowing his players to lose their focus, discipline and the lead in the loss against UL. He must be a bad coach. Or that he can't recruit well enough to have any sort of bench...yada,yada,yada...

Saying that would fire you guys up. Right? Well I'm fired up today for some reason, must be the moon.

That's the sort of comment I have to read after every UNC loss, after every UNC win where they didn't win by as much as somebody thinks they should have.

Comments like that would be very unfair to coach K, just as much as those directed at Roy are unfair.

I hate the double standard and feel justified to rationally point it out here to defend my coach.

I'm not directing this post at anyone in particular and I've said my piece and will move on...I'll spare the board any more Roy talk from me here...

Indoor66
02-21-2016, 02:45 PM
It is a players game at the end of the day. Coaches lead, players play.

Some days I just wake up and see the double standard applied to Roy Williams, not just by Duke fans, and decide to speak out and defend the coach of the team I support. This is probably not the best place to do it, I know that, and I do understand it's a Duke board, but you guys wouldn't respect me in the morning if it didn't.

Roy wins a greater % of games than any active coach (https://sportslistoftheday.com/2012/12/21/top-20-college-basketball-coaches-with-the-highest-winning-percentages/) in the college game. That's just a fact. He is also well on his way to a very good recruiting classes the next few years. He is an excellent coach.

What I'm talking about, for example, is I haven't seen...and shouldn't...any comments about coach K getting the technical, losing his composure, and allowing his players to lose their focus, discipline and the lead in the loss against UL. He must be a bad coach. Or that he can't recruit well enough to have any sort of bench...yada,yada,yada...

Saying that would fire you guys up. Right? Well I'm fired up today for some reason, must be the moon.

That's the sort of comment I have to read after every UNC loss, after every UNC win where they didn't win by as much as somebody thinks they should have.

Comments like that would be very unfair to coach K, just as much as those directed at Roy are unfair.

I hate the double standard and feel justified to rationally point it out here to defend my coach.

I'm not directing this post at anyone in particular and I've said my piece and will move on...I'll spare the board any more Roy talk from me here...

I don't necessarily disagree with much of your post. I will just point out that you are preaching to a choir. Unfortunately for you, you are not preaching to this choir so we don't always like your message. Being accepting of rival opinions has it's limits. :cool:

slower
02-21-2016, 02:55 PM
Roy wins a greater % of games than any active coach (https://sportslistoftheday.com/2012/12/21/top-20-college-basketball-coaches-with-the-highest-winning-percentages/) in the college game. That's just a fact.

Except that the list you reference is several years old. K has a higher winning percentage at Duke than Roy at UNC. And Mark Few has a higher career win % than Ole Roy. Uh, that's just a fact.

Obviously, Roy's win % at KU is better than K's at Army, so that skews the overall/career total in his favor. Not to mention that Roy took over a blue-chip program and K took on a comparatively lower-achieving program.

But we get your point, even though you had the facts wrong.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-21-2016, 03:25 PM
Except that the list you reference is several years old. K has a higher winning percentage at Duke than Roy at UNC. And Mark Few has a higher career win % than Ole Roy. Uh, that's just a fact.

Obviously, Roy's win % at KU is better than K's at Army, so that skews the overall/career total in his favor. Not to mention that Roy took over a blue-chip program and K took on a comparatively lower-achieving program.

But we get your point, even though you had the facts wrong.

I stand corrected. Mark Few is the man!

Wander
02-21-2016, 04:24 PM
When a couple of their guys are hitting threes they are probably the most dangerous team in college basketball. When they are shooting three point blanks, you just crowd the paint thereby taking away both their drives and their bigs.

Sure, but it's not like a totally random occurrence. UNC is terrible at 3s, both on offense and defense, and like Arizona last year I think this is what will keep them from the title.

jdc75
02-21-2016, 04:50 PM
Before everyone starts recrowning UNC, you may want to consider who they just blew out. Miami is not very good away from home. Their ACC road record is now 3-4. Their wins are against BC, GT and FSU. The games they've lost are to NC State by 16 points, Clemson by 11 points, UVA by 8, and now the blow out in Chapel Hill.
Don't get me wrong the cheats looked good, but they always do when everything is going their way and their opponents don't punch back.

slower
02-21-2016, 06:19 PM
I stand corrected. Mark Few is the man!

Haha. Absolutely! :p

timmy c
02-21-2016, 07:05 PM
BC is currently getting blasted by Wake 29-4. So far they have managed to shoot 2-21 from the field, 0-9 from the three, plus 8 turnovers. Is this the most inept team ever to compete in the ACC? Kenpom currently ranks them #247. Getting destroyed by a Devin Thomas-less Wake team is not going to help.

Wahoo2000
02-21-2016, 07:51 PM
BC is currently getting blasted by Wake 29-4. So far they have managed to shoot 2-21 from the field, 0-9 from the three, plus 8 turnovers. Is this the most inept team ever to compete in the ACC? Kenpom currently ranks them #247. Getting destroyed by a Devin Thomas-less Wake team is not going to help.

In 2011, wake finished kenpom #271 after going 1-15 in the ACC and 8-24 overall.

The next year, BC finished kenpom #264, was 4-12 ACC, 9-22 overall.

This year's BC squad is still in the running to be the worst ever though, assuming they lose out, and do so in at least a couple of cases in spectacular fashion.

TKG
02-21-2016, 08:22 PM
BC was 0-8 in the conference in football and they are winless, in conference, so far this season. That would be quite the double.

Wander
02-21-2016, 08:42 PM
In 2011, wake finished kenpom #271 after going 1-15 in the ACC and 8-24 overall.

The next year, BC finished kenpom #264, was 4-12 ACC, 9-22 overall.

This year's BC squad is still in the running to be the worst ever though, assuming they lose out, and do so in at least a couple of cases in spectacular fashion.

When this season is over, Boston College will be the worst ACC team of the past 35 years. They probably will still be considered "behind" 1981 Georgia Tech because BC has "too many" non-conference wins.

Furniture
02-21-2016, 11:19 PM
Why is that astounding? I though it was the right response to a stupid question. The game was played at a very high pace. A comment like "you gave up 42 points" is ludicrous. He was right to point out that the absolute number of points given up doesn't matter at all, only the relative.

I totally agree with this. Maybe Roy is smarter than people think. Personally if I had gone in at half time and whipped my team about their defense and the fact that they had given up 42 points I might, for my own reasons, not want to let the world know about that!
Just saying...