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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 63, UVA 62 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-13-2016, 06:34 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

DukeFanSince1990
02-13-2016, 06:35 PM
put your post-game thoughts here.

The legend of Grayson Allen grows!!!!! I am shaking......

DukeDevil
02-13-2016, 06:35 PM
WOOOOOOOO GRAYSON!!!!!! Are you KIDDING me??!!!!

Shout out to the defense for this game.

kAzE
02-13-2016, 06:36 PM
I love Grayson Allen

CameronBlue
02-13-2016, 06:36 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

gocanes0506
02-13-2016, 06:37 PM
Building confidence with the young team. Getting good wins with Amile on the bench.

Doria
02-13-2016, 06:37 PM
Wow! I'm drenched in sweat! Can't post anything intelligent now... :D

vick
02-13-2016, 06:37 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.

kmspeaks
02-13-2016, 06:39 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

I think it probably did so I'm sure they'll spend 10 minutes on Sports Center talking about how Duke benefits from another bad call. Still a great play by a guy who wasn't shooting/scoring at his normal pace today. What's the over/under on how many times per drive Grayson is fouled before one is actually called? 2.5, 3.5?

CameronBlue
02-13-2016, 06:39 PM
It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.

I think you could argue there was contact which precipitated the up and down but the refs were clearly focused on whether he got the ball off in time.

huey
02-13-2016, 06:39 PM
It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.

Is this reviewable? Or only whether he got it off in time?

77devil
02-13-2016, 06:41 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

After being fouled twice.

AvlDukie
02-13-2016, 06:41 PM
Fantastic win for Duke!
Won the game with defense and on the boards - who woulda thought??
You can see the team gaining confidence with each game. So much for Duke not having a "marquee win"..
Congrats to our boys for a great win, and a sweet birthday present for Coach!

Zeb
02-13-2016, 06:41 PM
It was clearly a travel, and I see no contact that would have allowed it. But I'll take the win. Now I know how Miami football fans feel.

Bob Green
02-13-2016, 06:42 PM
That was an exciting WIN! A HUGE WIN! The guys Refused to Lose!

duke4ever19
02-13-2016, 06:43 PM
I think you could argue there was contact which precipitated the up and down but the refs were clearly focused on whether he got the ball off in time.

Virginia had PLENTY of contact on Grayson while he was getting that shot off. On slow mo, I didn't see his foot come down before the ball left his hands. Perhaps it did, but I didn't catch it. Hope to see a replay later.

tfk53
02-13-2016, 06:44 PM
Tremendous effort by Duke and Allen - especially after missing 2 foul shots - to close. Very close call on the possible travel - also no call on the chest bump by Virginia defender on Allen on the final drive. Brogdon also pushed off Matt Jones on his acrobatic 2 pointer that gave Virginia their last lead. Feel the calls evened out. Of course, easier to say coming out on top.

gocanes0506
02-13-2016, 06:44 PM
Virginia had PLENTY of contact on Grayson while he was getting that shot off. On slow mo, I didn't see his foot come down before the ball left his hands. Perhaps it did, but I didn't catch it. Hope to see a replay later.

We'll see plenty on ESPN in less than 5 minutes

wsb3
02-13-2016, 06:45 PM
I watched the replay several times & his foot does not make contact with the floor.

What a win. What a gritty effort by this team. From 4-4 to 8-4 in the conference.

CameronBlue
02-13-2016, 06:47 PM
Virginia had PLENTY of contact on Grayson while he was getting that shot off. On slow mo, I didn't see his foot come down before the ball left his hands. Perhaps it did, but I didn't catch it. Hope to see a replay later.

I saw it. It did. Big deal. Good win. On to play the cheatahs at the outhouse on the Hill.

tbyers11
02-13-2016, 06:48 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.


It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.


Is this reviewable? Or only whether he got it off in time?

Pretty sure it is not reviewable. On slo-mo it appeared to be a travel, but it is hard to tell exactly when he released the ball from the rear angle. In real-time it was really bang-bang. No ref is ever going to make that call in real time.

You could have easily called a foul on Shayok. His arm did not stay vertical in challenging the shot.

Karma for our 4 one possession losses and UVa's miracle at Wake

duke4ever19
02-13-2016, 06:48 PM
I watched the replay several times & his foot does not make contact with the floor.

What a win. What a gritty effort by this team. From 4-4 to 8-4 in the conference.

Thanks for the confirmation.

lmb
02-13-2016, 06:48 PM
I can picture this story being told in Coach K's next book:

'Grayson had just missed two key free throws and UVa made a basket to put them up by one. With 6 seconds left I called time. I drew up a play for Grayson and I told him, "I know you'll make this shot. I believe in you.'

Was that not just vintage Coach K?

OldPhiKap
02-13-2016, 06:48 PM
Needed that. Nice.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2016, 06:48 PM
What an ugly, horrible, amazing shot.

Emerrick
02-13-2016, 06:49 PM
We should have won. We left the equivalent of at least 8 points on the board. What a great shot, too bad we'll have the controversy of a travel. It should have been a moot point. Love seeing DT's confidence.

Dukeblue91
02-13-2016, 06:49 PM
I had to work and only caught the last 30 seconds.
What happened to Luke Kennard?

Fish80
02-13-2016, 06:49 PM
OMG is now Oh My Grayson!!! And let's not forget, Coach set up the play, knowing Grayson would get it done. OMG.

Wahoo2000
02-13-2016, 06:50 PM
Wow! What a game. I'm not going to cry about a missed travel that was that close at the buzzer. Besides, in any game that comes down to one possession, there are way more mistakes by the team than the refs (usually).

Rebounding was the difference. If we controlled the boards in the second like we did the first, I think we win almost certainly. Just so impressed by plumlee' effort/passion.

Jones going bananas from 3 didn't help. I kind of expected it from Ingram, but not jones.

TKG
02-13-2016, 06:50 PM
It was clearly a travel, and I see no contact that would have allowed it. But I'll take the win. Now I know how Miami football fans feel.

With all due respect, there is no comparison with the end of the Miami football game. Let's see if the officiating crew gets suspend for two weeks.

MartyClark
02-13-2016, 06:50 PM
Gutty win against a very difficult team. I thought Duke gave up too many easy buckets in the first half. They tightened it up in the second half.

On to those whiners at Chapel Hill.

Bob Green
02-13-2016, 06:51 PM
We'll see plenty on ESPN in less than 5 minutes

http://espn.go.com/ncb/video?gameId=400839772

akg4y
02-13-2016, 06:51 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.


It did, but oh well, cant really fault missing that it was close.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbIdiJWUUAEiOEy.jpg:large

ChillinDuke
02-13-2016, 06:51 PM
Hahahahahahahahahahahaa

Wow!!!

- Chillin

gus
02-13-2016, 06:53 PM
It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.

Didn't look like a travel to me. He pivoted on his left foot, jumped and released the ball before the left foot returned to the floor.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2016, 06:53 PM
GO TO HELL, Carolina, GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

InSpades
02-13-2016, 06:53 PM
There's no possible way that is ever called traveling. Never. Not ever. Not in a zillion years. Not because it was Duke at home, just because of basketball. If you, as a ref are looking at his hand and his foot at the same time then you're probably missing the fact that he got fouled.

Great win for the good guys. Thought we were gonna get blown out when we were down 11 early, thought we should win going away when Ingram decided he couldn't miss. Wish we had shot a little better at the FT line to make it less exciting. I'l take it though.

Unranked? Please. If there's 25 teams in the country better than Duke I'll eat my hat.

Fish80
02-13-2016, 06:54 PM
There was no travel. Hansblahblah wasn't even there.

Atldukie79
02-13-2016, 06:56 PM
Terrific win! Add Grayson to the list of McClure, Dockery, Banks, West, and others for a clutch game winning shot in Cameron!

2 questions:
1) did fatigue account for the poor foul shooting?
2) Where was Luke?

Wahoo2000
02-13-2016, 06:56 PM
Thanks for the confirmation.

Hmmm. Going to disagree:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbIcZByWIAAEgs9.jpg

That said, I'm not blaming the loss on that missed call. It was bang-bang, and tough to catch in real time. But it WAS missed.

Bob Green
02-13-2016, 06:57 PM
I had to work and only caught the last 30 seconds.
What happened to Luke Kennard?

Nothing happened to Kennard. We needed Derryck Thornton on the court for his on ball defense. Thornton played a solid game today.

BobBender
02-13-2016, 06:57 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

Great game, big stones by GA. But if league office starts telling officials to count his steps, his driving game will be altered. He did land before releasing that shot. Actually, he travelled about three times that were not called. Euro-step, I guess it's called these days.

CameronBlue
02-13-2016, 06:58 PM
GO TO HELL, Carolina, GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (extra exclamation points) !!!!!

Once more with emphasis.

WillJ
02-13-2016, 06:58 PM
Thought it was a travel. And that would never get called in any game anywhere. Refs can't pay attention to that many things.

Dukeblue91
02-13-2016, 06:58 PM
Nothing happened to Kennard. We needed Derryck Thornton on the court for his on ball defense. Thornton played a solid game today.

Ah ok,
Thank you.

Saratoga2
02-13-2016, 06:59 PM
The game is in the books with Duke winning so all the discussion about whether or not there was contact or whether his foot touched before he released the ball is fun for fans but just so much hot air as far as changing anything.

I was happy for Grayson because he went from being the goat to being a hero. This win has given us 4 straight and put Duke solidly into the discussion for a better seed to the tournament. Amile will come back soon so we will become more dangerous.

We played nearly all of the game with 5 players. We had a 7 point lead and went through a period where we had a lot of opportunities to extend the lead but through a number of poor plays and then key misses on the FT line we saw the lead evaporate. UVa does play excellent defense and we no doubt got tired, so some of what happened is understandable. Brandon was great and UVa couldn't defend him and he single handedly kept us in the game and gave us a lead. Plumlee and the whole team rebounded better than UVa, so that helped us but we really had no other offense other than Grayson drawing fouls.

Coach K must have seen some weakness in Luke's game but I was wishing for him to be in when the FT's became a major factor. We won, so coach K by definition, made the right calls again.

One more point is I thought Derryck's overall game was very good. He is making big improvements game to game now and it is fun to have a really quick PG. I believe he is the quickest one we have had in recent memory.

Wahoo2000
02-13-2016, 07:02 PM
One more point - Kenpom is a prophet. Called the one-point win by Duke. (Though I think he had it at like 69-68, still close tho)

kAzE
02-13-2016, 07:04 PM
The game is in the books with Duke winning so all the discussion about whether or not there was contact or whether his foot touched before he released the ball is fun for fans but just so much hot air as far as changing anything.

I was happy for Grayson because he went from being the goat to being a hero. This win has given us 4 straight and put Duke solidly into the discussion for a better seed to the tournament. Amile will come back soon so we will become more dangerous.

We played nearly all of the game with 5 players. We had a 7 point lead and went through a period where we had a lot of opportunities to extend the lead but through a number of poor plays and then key misses on the FT line we saw the lead evaporate. UVa does play excellent defense and we no doubt got tired, so some of what happened is understandable. Brandon was great and UVa couldn't defend him and he single handedly kept us in the game and gave us a lead. Plumlee and the whole team rebounded better than UVa, so that helped us but we really had no other offense other than Grayson drawing fouls.

Coach K must have seen some weakness in Luke's game but I was wishing for him to be in when the FT's became a major factor. We won, so coach K by definition, made the right calls again.

One more point is I thought Derryck's overall game was very good. He is making big improvements game to game now and it is fun to have a really quick PG. I believe he is the quickest one we have had in recent memory.

2011 isn't recent? Kyrie Irving begs to differ. But yes, Thornton played well despite not putting up big stats. I love his defensive tenacity and he's starting to see the floor a bit better as well. I hope he continues this trend of development.

DukeFanSince1990
02-13-2016, 07:05 PM
If it was a travel there is no way you could see it in real time. And if you watch it n slow mo you can also see the chest bump that forces Allen back to the floor. IF It was a travel then a no call was the right call. Off setting missed calls.

Neals384
02-13-2016, 07:06 PM
Wow! What a game. I'm not going to cry about a missed travel that was that close at the buzzer. Besides, in any game that comes down to one possession, there are way more mistakes by the team than the refs (usually).

Rebounding was the difference. If we controlled the boards in the second like we did the first, I think we win almost certainly. Just so impressed by plumlee' effort/passion.

Jones going bananas from 3 didn't help. I kind of expected it from Ingram, but not jones.

Very classy, Wahoo2000!

Saratoga2
02-13-2016, 07:08 PM
2011 isn't recent? Kyrie Irving begs to differ. But yes, Thornton played well despite not putting up big stats. I love his defensive tenacity and he's starting to see the floor a bit better as well. I hope he continues this trend of development.

I think Derryck is quicker than Kyrie, I didn't say better, just quicker.

grossbus
02-13-2016, 07:10 PM
The replay was close, hard to tell but it looks like Allen's right foot had made contact with the floor before the ball left his hand.

But great win and great effort.

shhhhhh

Atlanta Duke
02-13-2016, 07:10 PM
The postgame storyline obviously is set

Seth Davis (@SethDavisHoops) tweeted at 7:04pm - 13 Feb 16:

Twitter gonna have fun with the Allen travel. Big difference bt bad call & incorrect call. Look at video in real time, it's awfully close.

https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/698658929207832577?s=17

Grayson clearly wins the week in college basketball media coverage

jhmoss1812
02-13-2016, 07:12 PM
Great game guys! That was a really entertaining game to watch despite the loss. We just had no answer for Ingram during that stretch. Dude is a beast. We also gave up way too many offensive rebounds.

Big shot by Grayson. Dude's a stone cold killer. I knew he was going to make it. I was trying to stop being a UVA fan for those last 6 seconds but I knew it was going in.

Hope we get to play again this year.

Dukehky
02-13-2016, 07:12 PM
I think Derryck is quicker than Kyrie, I didn't say better, just quicker.

On defense, yup. Probably on offense too but Kyrie's ball and body control are probably the best in the world right now, let alone when compared to Derryck Thornton.

Neals384
02-13-2016, 07:13 PM
Thornton's best game by far. Didn't shoot well, but 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, no turnovers and absolutely zero freshman mistakes. Several folks asked about Kennard - he was ineffective in 11 minutes. Seemed like his game requires a little more space than the VA defense allowed.

Troublemaker
02-13-2016, 07:13 PM
It was a travel but it also could've been called a foul twice (initial bump, then second bump with Shayok's arms not vertical).

Either way, who cares? In one-possession games, you usually can point to a lucky break if you win or an unlucky break if you lose.

Incidentally, Duke is still only 1-4 in these one-possession games, so I'm happy to accept this no-call buzzer-beater and I'd like to see in future one-possession games 3 more missed travels or uncalled bumps (if we were playing defense) to even things out.

Great game.

cspan37421
02-13-2016, 07:14 PM
If you, as a ref are looking at his hand and his foot at the same time then you're probably

... a chameleon.

Troublemaker
02-13-2016, 07:17 PM
Great game, big stones by GA. But if league office starts telling officials to count his steps, his driving game will be altered. He did land before releasing that shot. Actually, he travelled about three times that were not called. Euro-step, I guess it's called these days.

Dude, stop posting. If I went to a UVA board and named myself "Jeff Lamp," it still wouldn't make me a UVA fan.

Everyone sees through your act.

DukeFanSince1990
02-13-2016, 07:18 PM
... a chameleon.

What does telling jokes have to do with it? :)

I am in a good mood.

AvlDukie
02-13-2016, 07:18 PM
Really hard not to like and respect Tony Bennett.
He was incredibly gracious immediately after what must be a very tough loss.
Also mad props to the classy UVa fans on this board.
Hope we meet again down the line.

NYBri
02-13-2016, 07:21 PM
Hope we get to play again this year.

Indeed!

NYBri
02-13-2016, 07:23 PM
Really hard not to like and respect Tony Bennett.
He was incredibly gracious immediately after what must be a very tough loss.
Also mad props to the classy UVa fans on this board.
Hope we meet again down the line.

Boom!

cspan37421
02-13-2016, 07:25 PM
I can picture this story being told in Coach K's next book:

'Grayson had just missed two key free throws and UVa made a basket to put them up by one. With 6 seconds left I called time. I drew up a play for Grayson and I told him, "I know you'll make this shot. I believe in you.'

Was that not just vintage Coach K?

Grayson looked exhausted to me. And he was fouled, twice, on that last shot. So I have little sympathy for the missed travel call. If the refs are gonna swallow their whistles in the final minute (which I think undermines the integrity of the game), they'd better do it even-handedly.

Having missed the first half I didn't understand why Kennard wasn't in there at all, esp. late, when FTs were in play. But hey, I'm not the coach who is the GOAT. He didn't become the GOAT by listening to me.

Brogdon is something else, isn't he? But for Grayson, his crazy last basket is your highlight play of the game.

devilnfla
02-13-2016, 07:32 PM
It was clearly a travel, and I see no contact that would have allowed it. But I'll take the win. Now I know how Miami football fans feel.

Not even close to the Miami game.

Call is not reviewable, was not reviewed and upheld etc. Also, this tyoe of travel is very rarely called in college bb, and never in the NBA. 2 1/2 steps, MJ made this acceptable.

CameronBlue
02-13-2016, 07:32 PM
... a chameleon.

Can't spork ya, and Cupid seems a tad wrapped up at the moment. Hope this'll do. Good chuckle.

cspan37421
02-13-2016, 07:33 PM
Great game guys! That was a really entertaining game to watch despite the loss. We just had no answer for Ingram during that stretch. Dude is a beast. We also gave up way too many offensive rebounds.

Big shot by Grayson. Dude's a stone cold killer. I knew he was going to make it. I was trying to stop being a UVA fan for those last 6 seconds but I knew it was going in.

Hope we get to play again this year.

As the game finished with those two incredible shots, I thought of Ernie Banks:

"Let's play two!"

But Grayson would need an IV first, I think.
Just hook him up to MP3, I think that might work.

CoachJ10
02-13-2016, 07:39 PM
Are the Wahoo fans talking about the double digit travels that UVA got away with today? Or the Brogdon pushoffs?

A gritty effort by our boys. We are growing as a team. Hard not to like these guys.

Devilwin
02-13-2016, 07:43 PM
Great win against a veteran Virginia team that plays awesome defense. Grayson more than redeemed himself for an otherwise off game for him.:cool:

Newton_14
02-13-2016, 07:44 PM
It was a travel. I love the win, but that was a pretty bad missed call.omg really???? Geez there are enough non-Duke fan haters as there is. No need for Duke fans to join that bandwagon. If there was a call to be made at all it was a foul on UVA. Grayson took two legal steps off the dribble, had his freedom of movement violated two different times with body blows and still managed to get off the shot BEFORE his foot landed back on the floor (despite the body blow foul knocking back to the floor, otherwise it isn't even close). At any other point in the game that is called a foul 100 times out of 100. Let the haters hate. Duke gets all the calls blah blah blah.


On to the important discussion. So proud of this team. All the haters had them left for dead after the 3 game losing streak, and looky here.... they are playing like a Top 10 team again. The man to man defense is light years better than it was 2 months ago and several notches better than it was 1 month ago. Had Amile not gone down they would be positioned really well for Regular Season title and high seed in the NCAA. But, they have fought their way back off the floor without him. Beating both Louisville and UVA is remarkable and just huge!!

Brandon Ingram. Wow. Dude is the man. When he gets that jumper going he is impossible to guard. The baseline posterizing dunk was a thing of beauty too. He carried us when they were locking down Grayson, and then Grayson started making himself felt in the last 10 minutes, and I thought Matt in addition to his great defense on Brogdon, hit some huge shots. Shout out too, to MP3 and Derryck for super games in supporting roles. MP3 was a beast on the boards and had some nifty moves off pick and rolls, while Derryck was great with ball handling and defense, and had zero bonehead turnovers today. I thought both of those guys played really well.

Can't say enough though about Brandon, and then Grayson down the stretch and obviously willing the ball into the basket for the winning shot. The biggest negative today was so many missed free throws. The last second heroics would have not been needed were it not for that. Could not believe Grayson missed both there at the end.

At any rate, a big big win for these guys. They have their swagger back and believe in themselves again. If we get Amile back, it will take them up another level. Hopefully that pain subsides soon. Was really expecting him to trot out there today but wasn't meant to be. Maybe we get him next game against the cheats!

Go Duke!!

1999ballboy
02-13-2016, 07:47 PM
In real time, that's a really absurdly close play that no refs would ever call traveling, for any team, in the last second of a game. Traveling isn't reviewable on slow motion replay, and there's no way you can say that it was clear-cut unless you're viewing it in slow motion.

BandAlum83
02-13-2016, 07:47 PM
Great win against a veteran Virginia team that plays awesome defense. Grayson more than redeemed himself for an otherwise off game for him.:cool:

Off game? Are you kidding me? Grayson had 15 points, 7 boards, 7 assists, 2 steals, with 1 turnover. That's as close to a triple double as we've seen this year.

The man was a stat sheet stuffer tonight! :)

Troublemaker
02-13-2016, 07:51 PM
Bret Strelow ‏@bretstrelow (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow) 48m48 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow/status/698658540458807296)
K talking about contact on last play, says Allen "got into the end zone."


That's great.


Bret Strelow ‏@bretstrelow (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow) 51m51 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow/status/698657891230818304)
I asked Allen if he'd want to see replay - if he landed: "If you want to see a replay, you might see a foul too."

Bret Strelow ‏@bretstrelow (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/bretstrelow/status/698654843628556288)
At handshake, Bennett half jokingly told K he thought Allen traveled. K replied he thought Allen was fouled. Tony laughed about exchange

Olympic Fan
02-13-2016, 08:00 PM
Great win ... I'm so happy that I'm not even down about missing on my guess about Amile returning (still think he'll be back sooner than later).

Just a couple of comments:

-- Amazing how far Duke's man-to-men defense has come in a front. Don't know what the numbers say, but since Coach Capel switched from the zone late in the Georgia Tech game to the man, Duke has played almost exclusively man (100 percent man against Virginia) and has played it increasingly well.

-- I haven't read up-thread yet, but allow me to offer props to Malcolm Brogdon. He has an incredible defensive game -- shutting down in succession Grayson for 35 minutes, then when they finally switched him to Ingram, he almost completely shut him down ... but moving him freed up Allen, who was the dominant offensive player down the stretch.

-- Great job on the defensive boards in the second half by MP3, Brandon (seven second-half rebounds) and Grayson (five second-half rebounds).

-- Got to second AvlDukie -- Bennett was incredibly gracious after the game. He got a question about the supposed Allen travel on the last play and turned it into a joke: "As Mike and I shook hands, I told him 'I thought it was a travel.' He told me 'I thought it was a foul.'"

I'll post later after I get a chance to watch the game replay and I can study the play.

BTW: This game, coupled with the Louisville win Monday night, should get Duke back into the top 25 -- just in time for a week where we play at UNC and at Louisville.

FerryFor50
02-13-2016, 08:04 PM
omg really???? Geez there are enough non-Duke fan haters as there is. No need for Duke fans to join that bandwagon. If there was a call to be made at all it was a foul on UVA. Grayson took two legal steps off the dribble, had his freedom of movement violated two different times with body blows and still managed to get off the shot BEFORE his foot landed back on the floor (despite the body blow foul knocking back to the floor, otherwise it isn't even close). At any other point in the game that is called a foul 100 times out of 100. Let the haters hate. Duke gets all the calls blah blah blah.


On to the important discussion. So proud of this team. All the haters had them left for dead after the 3 game losing streak, and looky here... they are playing like a Top 10 team again. The man to man defense is light years better than it was 2 months ago and several notches better than it was 1 month ago. Had Amile not gone down they would be positioned really well for Regular Season title and high seed in the NCAA. But, they have fought their way back off the floor without him. Beating both Louisville and UVA is remarkable and just huge!!

Brandon Ingram. Wow. Dude is the man. When he gets that jumper going he is impossible to guard. The baseline posterizing dunk was a thing of beauty too. He carried us when they were locking down Grayson, and then Grayson started making himself felt in the last 10 minutes, and I thought Matt in addition to his great defense on Brogdon, hit some huge shots. Shout out too, to MP3 and Derryck for super games in supporting roles. MP3 was a beast on the boards and had some nifty moves off pick and rolls, while Derryck was great with ball handling and defense, and had zero bonehead turnovers today. I thought both of those guys played really well.

Can't say enough though about Brandon, and then Grayson down the stretch and obviously willing the ball into the basket for the winning shot. The biggest negative today was so many missed free throws. The last second heroics would have not been needed were it not for that. Could not believe Grayson missed both there at the end.

At any rate, a big big win for these guys. They have their swagger back and believe in themselves again. If we get Amile back, it will take them up another level. Hopefully that pain subsides soon. Was really expecting him to trot out there today but wasn't meant to be. Maybe we get him next game against the cheats!

Go Duke!!

To be fair, it was a travel. And there was one *before* the shot, too. I didn't see it at first, but a different angle showed 3 steps:

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Regardless, he got hit on the one everyone's mad about, which is why his foot landed before he got the shot off.

Makes up for a lot of the non-calls on UVA, or the weak charge calls, moving screens, etc. Missed calls happen. And they usually happen at the end of games, which is unfortunate. Refs tend to swallow the whistle in those situations. Remember when Matt Jones got hacked on his midcourt shot attempt at the end of the Syracuse game?

The reality of this game was that Duke wins this with no issues if they hit their FTs, especially Allen. He missed the front end of a 1-1 and then both of the ones with Duke up 1 at the end of the game right before the Brodgen reverse lay in. He shoots over 80% from the year from the line but went 7-11. As a team, Duke shot 56% from the line. Gotta hit those FTs, especially against a UVA team that lives off the handsy pack line defense.

What I really was surprised with was how after Ingram scored 11 straight points, Duke didn't go to him for several possessions. That resulted in empty trips on the offensive end. By the time Ingram was able to take another shot, he had "cooled off." You gotta keep feeding him.

Also interesting was how often they put the ball in Grayson Allen's hand down the stretch. I assume they were wanting him to get to the line instead of Ingram but it almost backfired.

MP3 was an unsung hero in this game. Winning the rebounding battle was HUGE.

I got concerned once Brodgen got hot, but it was too little, too late for UVA. Helped that he missed wide open 3s a couple of times.

Just glad the bounces finally went Duke's way/

BD80
02-13-2016, 08:07 PM
How 'bout some props for the D? What is it about this time of year that things start "clicking" defensively?

Our defensive rotations were the best they have been all year. No zone necessary. No foul trouble.

Bench was a bit short, 37.5 minutes per starter.

Thornton playing great. His defense is making a difference.

Great win!

TKG
02-13-2016, 08:08 PM
Dude, stop posting. If I went to a UVA board and named myself "Jeff Lamp," it still wouldn't make me a UVA fan.

Everyone sees through your act.

Try Barry Parkhill then maybe..........

camion
02-13-2016, 08:12 PM
Great win ... I'm so happy that I'm not even down about missing on my guess about Amile returning (still think he'll be back sooner than later).

Just a couple of comments:

-- Amazing how far Duke's man-to-men defense has come in a front. Don't know what the numbers say, but since Coach Capel switched from the zone late in the Georgia Tech game to the man, Duke has played almost exclusively man (100 percent man against Virginia) and has played it increasingly well.

-- I haven't read up-thread yet, but allow me to offer props to Malcolm Brogdon. He has an incredible defensive game -- shutting down in succession Grayson for 35 minutes, then when they finally switched him to Ingram, he almost completely shut him down ... but moving him freed up Allen, who was the dominant offensive player down the stretch.

-- Great job on the defensive boards in the second half by MP3, Brandon (seven second-half rebounds) and Grayson (five second-half rebounds).

-- Got to second AvlDukie -- Bennett was incredibly gracious after the game. He got a question about the supposed Allen travel on the last play and turned it into a joke: "As Mike and I shook hands, I told him 'I thought it was a travel.' He told me 'I thought it was a foul.'"

I'll post later after I get a chance to watch the game replay and I can study the play.

BTW: This game, coupled with the Louisville win Monday night, should get Duke back into the top 25 -- just in time for a week where we play at UNC and at Louisville.

Agreed with your take on Bennett and with both coaches' takes on the play. How you see that one depends on your perspective.

But the ball went in before the light went on. :) I assume Grayson called the bank shot.

Billy Dat
02-13-2016, 08:13 PM
Best win of the year. The Virginia match-up has evolved into an awesome rivalry since TB arrived and I hope the schedulers will start setting up home and aways during Ks final years.

Ingram has become a willing star, wanting the ball and the responsibility that goes with it. He'll be gone after this year but if he came back heavier and stronger, he'd be turning those corners where they now sort of stand him up and he'd be unguardable. Also with a little more strength he'd be able to....

....draw as many fouls as Grayson. K placed a wise bet on Allen's ability to draw fouls and that stretch where we coughed up the lead coincided with us getting into the bonus. Despite the missed FTs, it gave us just enough to finish the game, kind of.

When Brandon picked up his 3rd, I swore Virginia would go at him more, but they didn't. I also thought it would have been a good excuse to let Brandon rest of for the stretch run but K was going to ride that 5 win or lose, as is his habit.

I agree that DT was really good and he continues to play better and better. We needed him to become the primary PG - with all caveats about MJ and BI also shouldering the load - and he has and we are better because of it.

As for the D, it was solid at times but it was also terrible for long stretches of the first half. It was the first time in eons when we didn't play any zone, and I didn't miss it.

The new defense rules don't favor UVA who are very good at being sneaky physical. They were able to use that physicality for a chunk of the game but the game tightened. BUT, I do think that despite winding up in the bonus, all those fouls took us out of our offensive rhythm so maybe it was worth it, it's not like we made them pay for it at the biggest moments.

Plumlee was really good. It says something that I occasionally find myself wishing he'd face up and put in on the deck from the elbow....then I question my sanity, then Plum does some other sublime low post action and I start saying it again.

This win was a huge boost of confidence. I don't know what lies ahead in the Dome, but we tend to play well there and all the pressure is on the Heels. Let's see if we can keep this streak going.

CDu
02-13-2016, 08:45 PM
What a massive win! I try to steer clear from hyperbole, but Allen's shot was such a huge shot for the team's psyche. Losing another heartbreaker would have been brutal emotionally in a game we played well enough to win. So glad that shot went in.

As for the game, there is just so much positive to say. There was very little that we did poorly tonight. Honestly, the free throw shooting is about it. But aside from that, just a spectacularly played game against easily one of the five best teams in basketball.

I have to take an aside here and give kudos to UVa. Bennett and company also played well enough to win. They are a great team led by a great player and a great coach. Brogdon was held quiet for much of the game, but he came alive down the stretch and nearly yanked away a win. There is a lot to like about that kid. A very impressive kid, team, and coach.

As for our guys, I want to start with the defensive efforts from Jones and Thornton. Those guys did most of the heavy lifting against Brogdon and Perrantes. Their hard work allowed Allen to have his legs fresher down the stretch. This was one of my favorite performances so far from Thornton. I expect it from Jones, I just hope for it with Thornton.

Big props to Ingram for saving our bacon in the middle of the game. We were seemingly toast down 25-14, and Ingram took over. He got tired in the second half, and on top of that he forced UVa to put Brogdon on him. That freed up Allen to dominate the rest of the way. And aside from four missed free throws (including a front of a 1-and-1), Allen carried us home.

What a strong second half for Allen. When Brogdon switched assignments to Ingram, Allen took over. He was relentless going to the basket. The missed free throws were probably fatigue, and with six seconds left it seemed like they would mar an otherwise heroic effort by player and team. Brogdon's fantastic layup had us staring at defeat. Thankfully Allen had one more moment of brilliance left.

Just an awesome feeling right now. The team played SO much better this week than we had in the previous month. The defense has been night and day from where it was just a few weeks ago. The needle is definitely pointing up.

BLPOG
02-13-2016, 09:03 PM
Wow! What a game. I'm not going to cry about a missed travel that was that close at the buzzer. Besides, in any game that comes down to one possession, there are way more mistakes by the team than the refs (usually).

Rebounding was the difference. If we controlled the boards in the second like we did the first, I think we win almost certainly. Just so impressed by plumlee' effort/passion.

Jones going bananas from 3 didn't help. I kind of expected it from Ingram, but not jones.



Great game guys! That was a really entertaining game to watch despite the loss. We just had no answer for Ingram during that stretch. Dude is a beast. We also gave up way too many offensive rebounds.

Big shot by Grayson. Dude's a stone cold killer. I knew he was going to make it. I was trying to stop being a UVA fan for those last 6 seconds but I knew it was going in.

Hope we get to play again this year.


A few other posters have already commented on the class shown by the UVA folks on the board today, but I'd like to add that I also had a good experience with the UVA fans at the bar where I watched. I've dealt with a lot of random haters over the years while wearing Duke gear (let alone watching a game in public), so it's a very refreshing change of pace. It really stood out to me for the first time when I attended the 10/19/13 Duke vs. UVA football game in Charlottesville. The Wahoos were friendly before, during, and after the game - even though Duke overcame the early 22-point VA lead to win, 35-22. So if any UVA guys make it this far into the thread, thanks for the good attitude.

Billy Dat
02-13-2016, 09:08 PM
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210712289

"I love my guys. See, you guys don’t enjoy them as well because you try to make them like another Duke team. You should just enjoy them as this Duke team, like I am, and you will see a lot of really neat things.”

Newton_14
02-13-2016, 09:11 PM
To be fair, it was a travel. And there was one *before* the shot, too. I didn't see it at first, but a different angle showed 3 steps:

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Regardless, he got hit on the one everyone's mad about, which is why his foot landed before he got the shot off.

Makes up for a lot of the non-calls on UVA, or the weak charge calls, moving screens, etc. Missed calls happen. And they usually happen at the end of games, which is unfortunate. Refs tend to swallow the whistle in those situations. Remember when Matt Jones got hacked on his midcourt shot attempt at the end of the Syracuse game?

The reality of this game was that Duke wins this with no issues if they hit their FTs, especially Allen. He missed the front end of a 1-1 and then both of the ones with Duke up 1 at the end of the game right before the Brodgen reverse lay in. He shoots over 80% from the year from the line but went 7-11. As a team, Duke shot 56% from the line. Gotta hit those FTs, especially against a UVA team that lives off the handsy pack line defense.

What I really was surprised with was how after Ingram scored 11 straight points, Duke didn't go to him for several possessions. That resulted in empty trips on the offensive end. By the time Ingram was able to take another shot, he had "cooled off." You gotta keep feeding him.

Also interesting was how often they put the ball in Grayson Allen's hand down the stretch. I assume they were wanting him to get to the line instead of Ingram but it almost backfired.

MP3 was an unsung hero in this game. Winning the rebounding battle was HUGE.

I got concerned once Brodgen got hot, but it was too little, too late for UVA. Helped that he missed wide open 3s a couple of times.

Just glad the bounces finally went Duke's way/

We can agree to disagree. I watched the replay 4 times and to me he only took 2 steps after coming out of his dribble, and he got bumped hard during those two steps, then bumped harder when he attempted to rise for the shot. Whether his foot landed prior to the ball leaving his hand is admittedly very close, but as someone upthread stated, that never gets called and it happens more often than most realize. Bottom line to me is, if a call was going to be made there, it damn well had better been a foul call, especially with the freedom of movement rules they supposedly are supposed to call.

On the Ingram/Allen comments, Oly pointed out that it was due to Brogdon defending Grayson for the better part of the first 30-32 minutes, and then they switch Brogdon to Ingram and so we started going to Grayson in response. Oly actually said 35 minutes, but I think they made the switch a little bit before that. Will have to go back and look at the recording to be sure. It just felt like we started going to Grayson a little earlier than 5 minutes left, but Oly is usually right on these things. I am curious to see the tape.

Like you say though, if we make our free throws, we win this one going away, and no buzzer beater is required. Heck if Grayson makes the two at the end, UVA has to shoot a 3 just to tie it. I still can't believe Shaock (sp?) made the late pass to Brogdon rather than taking the jumper. Brogdon was not really open and was fighting for rebound position. That was a crazy play and crazier layup.

azzefkram
02-13-2016, 09:18 PM
As for our guys, I want to start with the defensive efforts from Jones and Thornton. Those guys did most of the heavy lifting against Brogdon and Perrantes. Their hard work allowed Allen to have his legs fresher down the stretch. This was one of my favorite performances so far from Thornton. I expect it from Jones, I just hope for it with Thornton.

Grayson and Brandon will get loads of deserved accolades for this game but you are so right about Jones and Thornton. Brogdon may have had 18 pts but they were hard won and not very efficient pts. This is two really top notch defensive performance in a row for Matt against some pretty impressive competition. Derryck did a really good job keeping Perrantes from getting into rhythm. I also thought MPIII did a solid job on Gill. Matt also picked a heck of a time to rediscover his shooting stroke (32% from 3 in conference before VA, 36% now). Derryck was also very controlled on the offensive side of the ball as well. There were a few times where it looked like he might do something ill-advised but he pulled it back out or made the safe pass.

moonpie23
02-13-2016, 09:45 PM
it was totally a walk, but, as it's been said already, after two fouls not being called, i guess the whistle was off for the final 6 secs of the game....


great win for our team.....
9F

dukelifer
02-13-2016, 09:56 PM
Heck of a win. Gutty effort by the guys. Ingram is a special player- just wait until he grows into that body. Allen is the heart of the team. Jones gave the team a big lift. I thought Duke needed a big game from Kennard because Jones has been a bit absent. Today he was great. Thornton is playing with more confidence. This team is growing and getting better. That is all you can ask.

FerryFor50
02-13-2016, 09:58 PM
Heck of a win. Gutty effort by the guys. Ingram is a special player- just wait until he grows into that body. Allen is the heart of the team. Jones gave the team a big lift. I thought Duke needed a big game from Kennard because Jones has been a bit absent. Today he was great. Thornton is playing with more confidence. This team is growing and getting better. That is all you can ask.

By absent, I suppose you mean not scoring a bunch?

Because Jones was lights out on defense tonight and against Louisville.

BandAlum83
02-13-2016, 10:10 PM
A few other posters have already commented on the class shown by the UVA folks on the board today, but I'd like to add that I also had a good experience with the UVA fans at the bar where I watched. I've dealt with a lot of random haters over the years while wearing Duke gear (let alone watching a game in public), so it's a very refreshing change of pace. It really stood out to me for the first time when I attended the 10/19/13 Duke vs. UVA football game in Charlottesville. The Wahoos were friendly before, during, and after the game - even though Duke overcame the early 22-point VA lead to win, 35-22. So if any UVA guys make it this far into the thread, thanks for the good attitude.

I went to a game in Charlottesville with UVA grads who were friends of mine in 1983. Duke got trounced, of course, but the UVA fans were friendly and gracious. I've always viewed UVAers as among the class of the ACC.

Olympic Fan
02-13-2016, 10:21 PM
We can agree to disagree. I watched the replay 4 times and to me he only took 2 steps after coming out of his dribble, and he got bumped hard during those two steps, then bumped harder when he attempted to rise for the shot. Whether his foot landed prior to the ball leaving his hand is admittedly very close, but as someone upthread stated, that never gets called and it happens more often than most realize. Bottom line to me is, if a call was going to be made there, it damn well had better been a foul call, especially with the freedom of movement rules they supposedly are supposed to call.

On the Ingram/Allen comments, Oly pointed out that it was due to Brogdon defending Grayson for the better part of the first 30-32 minutes, and then they switch Brogdon to Ingram and so we started going to Grayson in response. Oly actually said 35 minutes, but I think they made the switch a little bit before that. Will have to go back and look at the recording to be sure. It just felt like we started going to Grayson a little earlier than 5 minutes left, but Oly is usually right on these things. I am curious to see the tape.

Like you say though, if we make our free throws, we win this one going away, and no buzzer beater is required. Heck if Grayson makes the two at the end, UVA has to shoot a 3 just to tie it. I still can't believe Shaock (sp?) made the late pass to Brogdon rather than taking the jumper. Brogdon was not really open and was fighting for rebound position. That was a crazy play and crazier layup.

My mistake ... I meant 25 minutes (just a typo, I knew it was five minutes into the second half). Allen scored four points against Brogdon -- the first basket of the game, when Brogdon went for the steal, had it, then lost it back to Grayson, who was then free for a drive and layup; a transition basket that Allen converted later in the half. That's six points against Brogdon by Allen and Ingram ... 34 points by those two when he wasn't covering them.

Brogdon is on Allen the entire first half, except the final Duke possession, when he switched to Ingram (who had just scored eight straight points for Duke vs. Wilkins).

I was surprised when they started the second half with Brogdon on Allen again. They didn't switch until Ingram scored the first 10 Duke points of the second half -- 18 straight Duke points in all.

Then they switched Brogdon onto Ingram, just before the 15 minute mark in the second half. Grom that point, Ingram scored two more points (following his own miss). Allen, who had four points at that point, had 11 points down the stretch (although he would have had more had he hit his FTs at a normal rate).

I did check and Virginia did have ONE (1) offense in the second half -- Duke had nine offensve rebounds in the second half.

Okay, the last play ... I watched it perhaps a dozen times as slow as my DVR would go and:

(1) There is absolutely no way Allen walked BEFORE the controversial shot/landing (as one poster suggested).

(2) Shayok hit him twice on the play -- the first was a body to body contact that occurs as Grayson rushes the basket -- I could see that not being called ... but before Allen released the ball, Shayok hits him again (bringing his arm down) -- and that one SHOULD have been called.

(3) Does Allen release the ball before his foot lands? I'm amazed to read all the positive yes and no answers on this board ... As I've said I've seen it more than a dozen times as slow as possible, and I can't tell for sure either way. If it was a reviewable play (it's not), I can't see the clearcut evidence to overturn the no-call on the court.

(4) The one thing everybody agrees on -- he released the shot in time.

Newton_14
02-13-2016, 10:23 PM
Grayson and Brandon will get loads of deserved accolades for this game but you are so right about Jones and Thornton. Brogdon may have had 18 pts but they were hard won and not very efficient pts. This is two really top notch defensive performance in a row for Matt against some pretty impressive competition. Derryck did a really good job keeping Perrantes from getting into rhythm. I also thought MPIII did a solid job on Gill. Matt also picked a heck of a time to rediscover his shooting stroke (32% from 3 in conference before VA, 36% now). Derryck was also very controlled on the offensive side of the ball as well. There were a few times where it looked like he might do something ill-advised but he pulled it back out or made the safe pass.

Agree on Thornton. I thought it was easily his best floor game since the Georgetown game. A couple of the "straddle the 3 point line" long two-point attempts that drive me nuts, but he made one of them today. But no qualms at all. His defense and floor game were superb today and this team is much better when he plays that way. Agree with you and CDu that the defense of Jones, Thornton, and MP3 were huge in this win today. I will also say regarding MP3, he made two very difficult offensive plays today, he made them look easy, and if we are being honest, they were plays he had no chance in heck of making up until this season.... and even then, maybe not in pre-January games. It is truly remarkable just how much Marshall has improved on both sides of the ball, and he should be recognized for that. Play 1 today was a beautiful slip screen in half one where he catches a beautiful pass in traffic, slices through that traffic with no dribble and gasp! without traveling, and fluidly laid it in for a bucket. Play 2 was in the second half where he catches a difficult pass at the rim in traffic, gathers himself beautifully and under full control, and finishes with a powerful two hand slam. Two huge plays for him and for the team. He too, played a brilliant game today.'

FerryFor50
02-13-2016, 10:24 PM
(1) There is absolutely no way Allen walked BEFORE the controversial shot/landing (as one poster suggested).


I suggested it and posted a video that shows that he walked before the play. It was pretty obvious.

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Watch when he picks up the dribble then watch his steps. Definitely took 3.

That said, glad it went uncalled...

Also in total agreement with the rest, including the uncalled foul.

jv001
02-13-2016, 10:32 PM
Cdu made some very good points in his post above. Nice to hear rather than the negative discussion on whether Grayson traveled or not and the missed fouls on VA. Here are some of my thoughts:
Total class from the Virginia Coach, team and fans on DBR. The Cheats could use this as a lesson in sportsmanship.

Good point regarding Brogdon's defense on Grayson and then having to switch to Brandon when he got hot. I'm glad it wasn't possible for him to guard both at one time. He's a great player offensively and even more so on defense. He should be a good pro.

I think our woeful free throw shooting came from fatigue. It has to be hard to play a rugged team like Virginia and not be tired.

Great job by Matt and Derryck on defense. They set the tone by playing some terrific defense on the two best offensive threats. I believe that the improvement on Defense starts with Thornton playing the opposing PG. He is so quick in moving his feet and he has very quick hands as well.

The lack of minutes for Luke was surprising but Coach K and staff know more than us Duke fans. Luke certainly is a great weapon off the bench and I'm sure he'll be instrumental in a Duke win before the season is over.

I'm hoping for a return of a 100% Amile before long. If he comes back our defense will only get better. The 1-3-1 Zone defense worked well with both he and Brandon in the lineup. That could be another wrinkle we could throw at teams to help our defense.

It was a great win and one we surely needed. Now let's Beat the Cheats!!! GoDuke!!!!!!!

BobBender
02-13-2016, 10:58 PM
Dude, stop posting. If I went to a UVA board and named myself "Jeff Lamp," it still wouldn't make me a UVA fan.

Everyone sees through your act.

Ha, sorry I don't tow the party line. GA does get away with a lot when he goes to the basket. It's all good but don't be in denial about it!

cspan37421
02-13-2016, 11:10 PM
I suggested it and posted a video that shows that he walked before the play. It was pretty obvious.

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Watch when he picks up the dribble then watch his steps. Definitely took 3.



Is the rule the number of steps immediately after the ball bounces off the floor for the last time, or the number of steps after he gathers it back in his hand(s)? From that low-quality video, it appears to me that you get 3 steps in the first case, but 2 in the second.

Still 2 fouls though.

FerryFor50
02-13-2016, 11:15 PM
Is the rule the number of steps immediately after the ball bounces off the floor for the last time, or the number of steps after he gathers it back in his hand(s)? From that low-quality video, it appears to me that you get 3 steps in the first case, but 2 in the second.

Still 2 fouls though.

Good question. I always thought it was the former, but I could see the case for the latter.

From the NBA rule book (oh, the irony):


Section XIV-Traveling
a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
f. In starting a dribble after (1) receiving the ball while standing still, or (2) coming to a legal stop, the ball must be out of the player's hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.
g. If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.
i. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team at the sideline, nearest spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.

Looks like after the dribble is done. Question is, what is considered completion of a dribble?

toooskies
02-13-2016, 11:23 PM
I suggested it and posted a video that shows that he walked before the play. It was pretty obvious.

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Watch when he picks up the dribble then watch his steps. Definitely took 3.

That said, glad it went uncalled...

Also in total agreement with the rest, including the uncalled foul.

I would say that at no level of televised basketball does the first step in that video get called as an actual step. It is effectively simultaneous with his dribble ending, and you can't really tell without the assistance of replay whether the foot lands before the ball is in his hands. I have never, ever seen a play like that called as a travel. Certainly not with just a second or two on the clock.

As for the step on the landing... probably a violation, but also pretty impossible to make that call without the assistance of instant replay to verify it, which isn't allowed.

elvis14
02-13-2016, 11:29 PM
What a great shot and a great win. So happy to come away with another win. Our team is really coming around. A few game thoughts:



I see lots of discussion on the no call on that last play. Frankly, I'm OK with the no call. Yes, Grayson was fouled twice but since he made the shot it's hard for me to get too upset about the no call.
I was not OK with the no call when Marshall was hacked with 40 seconds left. Of course you won't see that on ESPN.
Thank goodness Brandon got hot for a while and brought us back. He's a match up nightmare
The back to back missed FT's on the front end of 1 and 1's by Ingram and Allen were a huge part of UVa coming back. Right after we missed those, Brogdon hit a shot and a FT. That was a 7 point swing that changed everything.
In general, the missed FT's (especially those last 2 by Grayson THE MAN Allen) almost cost us the game
What a great shot by Brogdon with 10 seconds left. I thought he had beat us.
Grayson Allen, ACC POTY? Maybe, he's got a chance.
I said before the game that if the refs called the game without the mandated emphasis on freedom of movement that it would be a huge advantage to UVa. They didn't enforce FOM at all in the first half (disappointing) but they did enforce it some in the second half (better basketball ensued). Note, when you hedge a screen and you bump/hit/hip_check the ball handler it's a foul and it should be called.
I grew up in Virginia and I also think the UVa fans and staff show a lot of class on DBR and in person. I'm purposely not going to visit their fan sites, however, that usually causes hard feelings. Although UVa wins games I have to admit that I just can't get behind them or get too excited about them because of their style of play (unless, of course, they are playing UNCheat).
I really thought we'd need some points from Luke to win this game. Wow was I wrong there. What we got instead was great defense from DT.
I'm really happy to see Matt shoot well from 3 and make such a positive impact on the offensive end. Goes nicely with his great contributions on the defensive end.
Another solid effort by MP3. Did a good job on the boards, played good defense, scored a few points.
After we beat #13 L'ville last week we should have gotten back in the top 25 rankings. Hopefully that'll happen this week now that we've beaten #7 UVa. Once we beat UNCheat on Wednesday we'll have 6 losses to their 5 so we'll be ranked around #20 and they'll be ranked about #8 and Bilas will tell everyone he thinks they'll win the natty :-(
Big decision. Watch the game again tonight or wait until tomorrow morning or both.

FerryFor50
02-13-2016, 11:30 PM
I would say that at no level of televised basketball does the first step in that video get called as an actual step. It is effectively simultaneous with his dribble ending, and you can't really tell without the assistance of replay whether the foot lands before the ball is in his hands. I have never, ever seen a play like that called as a travel. Certainly not with just a second or two on the clock.

As for the step on the landing... probably a violation, but also pretty impossible to make that call without the assistance of instant replay to verify it, which isn't allowed.

I've seen a lot of mind boggling travel calls, particularly on "first steps" off shot fakes.

But I agree with your overall point. That rarely gets called, if ever.

Newton_14
02-13-2016, 11:43 PM
Good question. I always thought it was the former, but I could see the case for the latter.

From the NBA rule book (oh, the irony):



Looks like after the dribble is done. Question is, what is considered completion of a dribble?

Which was my point all along so thanks for posting that. From my playing days and how I was coached my entire life, his final two steps were legal because he took those only after coming out of his dribble. The very quick first step that some are counting, came prior to him coming out of his dribble in my humble opinion and understanding of the game.

Whether his right foot, after going into the air in the shot attempt, came back down prior to the ball leaving his hand is debatable for sure, and like Oly Fan noted, even watching it in slo mo it is difficult to tell.. but I would argue, 1. The foul caused him to return to the floor quicker than he would have had he not been fouled, 2. That is never ever called, and 3. It was not clear cut enough to make the call anyway. I think K would have absolutely lost his mind had the refs called a walk there, given the heavy contact Grayson endured. Thus his comments in the post game presser, especially the final line about Grayson "making it into the endzone".... Sirk style! (my words not his on Sirk :) )

All that said, I agree with JV001... time to let it go and just focus on what a wonderful game it was between two heavyweights, and two really well coached teams. Hats off to UVA. They are strong again this year. Duke and UVA are arguably the two hottest teams in the league at the moment. Hope that continues!

gwlaw99
02-13-2016, 11:59 PM
No one is mentioning the insanely bad out of bounds call the refs made toward the end of the game. Totally blown call that could have changed the outcome. So cry me a river the refs on the last play in which the refs didn't call a foul before the travel and didn't call the foul before his foot came down. If he had missed it, the conversation would have been about the missed calls that should have put Allen on the line; the foul that forced the bad shot.

-jk
02-14-2016, 12:17 AM
No one is mentioning the insanely bad out of bounds call the refs made toward the end of the game. Totally blown call that could have changed the outcome. So cry me a river the refs on the last play in which the refs didn't call a foul before the travel and didn't call the foul before his foot came down. If he had missed it, the conversation would have been about the missed calls that should have put Allen on the line; the foul that forced the bad shot.

That was a shot clock violation...

-jk

devildeac
02-14-2016, 12:17 AM
After being fouled at least twice.


Minor correction ;) .

jipops
02-14-2016, 12:41 AM
The espn angle on this game is pretty disgusting. They know exactly what they're doing. Let's just ignore that this was such a great game that went back and forth. No, let's make this game like the Bachelor and throw some contrived soap opera drama at it. To hell with espn. I wish the nba would find a different home.

Yes Grayson was most definitely fouled before coming down. According to the new rules he was most certainly fouled. There is no question. But no way the ref is going to call that on a last second heave.

Now about the foot coming down... It is impossible to tell his foot came down before the release without the benefit of slowmo. Impossible. And that's not reviewable. Not only that, but can anyone even recall a shot being waved off because the foot came down just before the release? Especially on a final shot, the refs are watching the release and buzzer.

But we get the whole point right? Duke got another break that only Duke would get. Manure.

TNTDevil
02-14-2016, 12:58 AM
W/R/T the travel...

...HELL YEAH he traveled. So what? Almost everybody traveled at some point. Clearly "European Rules" were in effect.

Anybody wants to whine about missed calls in this game...take your pick. A <wanker>ton, both ways.

gcashwell
02-14-2016, 01:24 AM
W/R/T the travel...

...HELL YEAH he traveled. So what? Almost everybody traveled at some point. Clearly "European Rules" were in effect.

Anybody wants to whine about missed calls in this game...take your pick. A <wanker>ton, both ways.

Yup, Brogdon blatantly pushed off to get open for the go ahead layup with 9 seconds left. Nobody says a word.

El_Diablo
02-14-2016, 01:39 AM
To be fair, it was a travel. And there was one *before* the shot, too. I didn't see it at first, but a different angle showed 3 steps:

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Regardless, he got hit on the one everyone's mad about, which is why his foot landed before he got the shot off.

Makes up for a lot of the non-calls on UVA, or the weak charge calls, moving screens, etc. Missed calls happen. And they usually happen at the end of games, which is unfortunate. Refs tend to swallow the whistle in those situations. Remember when Matt Jones got hacked on his midcourt shot attempt at the end of the Syracuse game?

The reality of this game was that Duke wins this with no issues if they hit their FTs, especially Allen. He missed the front end of a 1-1 and then both of the ones with Duke up 1 at the end of the game right before the Brodgen reverse lay in. He shoots over 80% from the year from the line but went 7-11. As a team, Duke shot 56% from the line. Gotta hit those FTs, especially against a UVA team that lives off the handsy pack line defense.

What I really was surprised with was how after Ingram scored 11 straight points, Duke didn't go to him for several possessions. That resulted in empty trips on the offensive end. By the time Ingram was able to take another shot, he had "cooled off." You gotta keep feeding him.

Also interesting was how often they put the ball in Grayson Allen's hand down the stretch. I assume they were wanting him to get to the line instead of Ingram but it almost backfired.

MP3 was an unsung hero in this game. Winning the rebounding battle was HUGE.

I got concerned once Brodgen got hot, but it was too little, too late for UVA. Helped that he missed wide open 3s a couple of times.

Just glad the bounces finally went Duke's way/

His left foot was still in the air when he gathered the ball, so he was allowed to bring that foot down. He then took another step with his right foot (off of which he launched for the shot). Not a travel by any means before the shot.

El_Diablo
02-14-2016, 01:47 AM
I suggested it and posted a video that shows that he walked before the play. It was pretty obvious.

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Watch when he picks up the dribble then watch his steps. Definitely took 3.

That said, glad it went uncalled...

Also in total agreement with the rest, including the uncalled foul.

Those first two establish his position. Pause it when he gathers his dribble. The right foot is down (your 1) then the left foot comes down (your 2...but really just establishing his pivot) then the right foot takes another step (your 3, but really the first pivot after his position has been established).

Kedsy
02-14-2016, 01:55 AM
What I really was surprised with was how after Ingram scored 11 straight points, Duke didn't go to him for several possessions. That resulted in empty trips on the offensive end. By the time Ingram was able to take another shot, he had "cooled off." You gotta keep feeding him.

That's not what happened at all. First of all, Brandon scored 18 straight Duke points, spanning halftime. After the 18th point, on the next possession he got the ball drove in, missed a layup, got his own rebound and was called for a fairly bogus foul. On the next possession, he got the ball, drove in, drew double coverage and kicked out to Matt for a made three. Next possession, Grayson hit a jumper, and the possession after that, Brandon missed a three. So he had the ball three of the four possessions immediately following his streak.

kAzE
02-14-2016, 02:28 AM
That's not what happened at all. First of all, Brandon scored 18 straight Duke points, spanning halftime. After the 18th point, on the next possession he got the ball drove in, missed a layup, got his own rebound and was called for a fairly bogus foul. On the next possession, he got the ball, drove in, drew double coverage and kicked out to Matt for a made three. Next possession, Grayson hit a jumper, and the possession after that, Brandon missed a three. So he had the ball three of the four possessions immediately following his streak.

Yeah, we definitely took full advantage of his hot streak and milked it dry. He was pretty cold from the field outside of the 10 minutes for which he was just unconscious. Too bad halftime cut it 15 minutes short. He might blown them out of the gym by himself if we had just kept playing. Kudos to Brogdon for being a huge difference maker on whoever he was guarding. He's REALLY good.

dyedwab
02-14-2016, 07:13 AM
Yeah, we definitely took full advantage of his hot streak and milked it dry. He was pretty cold from the field outside of the 10 minutes for which he was just unconscious. Too bad halftime cut it 15 minutes short. He might blown them out of the gym by himself if we had just kept playing. Kudos to Brogdon for being a huge difference maker on whoever he was guarding. He's REALLY good.

I want to emphasize the point that it wasn't so much that "Ingram cooled off" after his streak but rather Malcolm Brogdon did a great job containing Ingram. That's guy can play some basketball.

Newton_14
02-14-2016, 07:31 AM
The espn angle on this game is pretty disgusting. They know exactly what they're doing. Let's just ignore that this was such a great game that went back and forth. No, let's make this game like the Bachelor and throw some contrived soap opera drama at it. To hell with espn. I wish the nba would find a different home.

Yes Grayson was most definitely fouled before coming down. According to the new rules he was most certainly fouled. There is no question. But no way the ref is going to call that on a last second heave.

Now about the foot coming down... It is impossible to tell his foot came down before the release without the benefit of slowmo. Impossible. And that's not reviewable. Not only that, but can anyone even recall a shot being waved off because the foot came down just before the release? Especially on a final shot, the refs are watching the release and buzzer.

But we get the whole point right? Duke got another break that only Duke would get. Manure.
Which is why I never go to the ESPN website anymore to read sports news. Like never ever never. I only watch games on their TV channel or WatchESPN App, and almost always keep the volume down where I can barely hear the drivel coming from the announcers lips (which in most cases by the way, is a producer in their ear telling them what to discuss and which side to take in the discussion. Very much "reality tv" with a producer dictating discussion as you allude to above).

Indoor66
02-14-2016, 08:00 AM
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210712289

"I love my guys. See, you guys don’t enjoy them as well because you try to make them like another Duke team. You should just enjoy them as this Duke team, like I am, and you will see a lot of really neat things.”

ALL posters here should take this sentiment to heart. Maybe this quote should be the Board Motto. Analyze this team as this team, not the one before or the one we might have after. [Rant over].:cool:

DukieInBrasil
02-14-2016, 08:13 AM
What a great shot and a great win. So happy to come away with another win. Our team is really coming around. A few game thoughts:




After we beat #13 L'ville last week we should have gotten back in the top 25 rankings. Hopefully that'll happen this week now that we've beaten #7 UVa. Once we beat UNCheat on Wednesday we'll have 6 losses to their 5 so we'll be ranked around #20 and they'll be ranked about #8 and Bilas will tell everyone he thinks they'll win the natty :-(
Big decision. Watch the game again tonight or wait until tomorrow morning or both.


We beat L'ville on Monday, so we wouldn't have gotten credit for that until this week's voting. For this week's voters, we beat 2 top-25 teams, and should mos def be ranked again. As for your big decision option, i already watched it!!!

Saratoga2
02-14-2016, 08:22 AM
omg really???? .


At any rate, a big big win for these guys. They have their swagger back and believe in themselves again. If we get Amile back, it will take them up another level. Hopefully that pain subsides soon. Was really expecting him to trot out there today but wasn't meant to be. Maybe we get him next game against the cheats!

Go Duke!!

In discussion about Amile, who would you have sat while he is in? Thornton, Allen, Ingram, Jones and Plumlee all played very well. NIce problem to have.

devildeac
02-14-2016, 08:49 AM
Here's the Raleigh N&O article this AM:


http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article60266191.html


Take the quotes for whatever you'd like:

"I kind of joked with Coach K afterward," Virginia head coach Tony Bennett said with a bit of a smile. "I said, 'I think he traveled.' And Coach said, 'Well, I think he got fouled,’ so that was what we said as we embraced each other."

Allen waived off any interest in viewing a replay, too.

"No, it doesn't matter," he said with a good-natured smile. "If you want to see a replay, you might see a foul as well."

Troublemaker
02-14-2016, 08:54 AM
Ha, sorry I don't tow the party line. GA does get away with a lot when he goes to the basket. It's all good but don't be in denial about it!

That's mighty irresponsible of you. I saw it parked in front of a school hydrant. Think of the children!

And GA doesn't "get away" with anything, unless you're talking about that travel after getting fouled on the buzzer-beater.

Indoor66
02-14-2016, 09:27 AM
That's mighty irresponsible of you. I saw it parked in front of a school hydrant. Think of the children!

And GA doesn't "get away" with anything, unless you're talking about that travel after getting fouled on the buzzer-beater.

There are no fouls or violations unless the ref's call them. That is the reality of the game - and all games. Everything else is a "rub of the green (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+rub+of+the+green)." Get over it and yourselves.

Furniture
02-14-2016, 09:33 AM
Bennetts post game presser has to be probably the most sporting presser I have ever seen from a losing coach. Impressive!

weezie
02-14-2016, 09:34 AM
ALL posters here should take this sentiment to heart. Maybe this quote should be the Board Motto. Analyze this team as this team, not the one before or the one we might have after. [Rant over].:cool:

After all these years, K is still teaching us, the fans. Watching how this particular team has literally grown and developed right in front of our eyes is head-shaking marvelous. Late in the first, when BI had the ball along the baseline he paused slightly to asses and gather himself and then I swear, he clenched his jaw and drove in for the two step slam. A monster baller persona. It was a quite a moment. We sit over there and heard the "whoa" murmur through the crowd.

And big props to Brogdon. He's a beautiful player, the exact opposite of a ball hog and a terrific defender.

I think we just keep adding to those top three games in Cameron on the record list! So many, many top threes!

weezie
02-14-2016, 09:38 AM
Bennetts post game presser has to be probably the most sporting presser I have ever seen from a losing coach. Impressive!

Besides being handsome, he's actually got a very nice way about him. I think he admitted to himself that he saw a great game, too. Son of a college coach, a player and coach, he's not so bad and he doesn't seem to be too full of himself.
I hate to admit that...:cool:

ArtVandelay
02-14-2016, 09:40 AM
- Huge win for trying to sneak into a first-round bye in the ACC tourney and for the NCAA profile. UVA is a legit Final Four caliber team, in my view.

- On Grayson's last shot: "...and totally redeem yourself!" (said in Jim Carrey Dumb and Dumber voice) (was I the only one cursing Grayson for about 30 seconds consecutively after missing those free throws?)

- With all the noise about the game-winner, I just wanted to re-emphasize what a stud Ingram was tonight. UVa could not contain him for most of the game. I'm surprised K did not continue to ride him down the stretch. Seemed pretty clear that K wanted the ball in Grayson's hands in crunch time, even though Gray was forcing things a bit too much and took some bad shots. Might have been matchup-related, but I was surprised.

- Some folks above alluded to the fact that Gray looked tired. This feels like the common refrain on this board that when a player struggles, he must have been sick/tired/pledging a frat/etc. I actually thought Gray seemed frustrated by the packline (props to Shayok and others for doing a nice job on him), which I sort of feared going in. I think this may have affected his FT shooting. It still feels like he can get mentally rattled when things don't go his way, but that's obviously conjecture. I hope that he can learn to make adjustments against teams with strong interior D and maybe pull up for more mid-range jumpers (which he shoots very well) when his "drive the ball with reckless abandon" schtick is not working.

- GREAT team defense. They held Brogdon relatively in check, didn't allow Perrantes to wreak havoc, and forced a number of bad long 2-pt shots from Gil, Wilkins, and Tobey (who annoyingly nailed a few in the first half). They even forced some TOs on a very disciplined UVA team.

DukieInBrasil
02-14-2016, 09:53 AM
After that swoon where we lost 4 out of 5 games, it just didn't seem like this team had that je ne c'est quoi to win tough games. But these last two games have totally proven my debbie downer side wrong. What a magnificent win, and one that bodes well for the remainder of the ACC season, as well as our seeding for both tournaments. If we bring this level of mojo vs the UNCheaters, i think we can win that one too!!!

NashvilleDevil
02-14-2016, 09:56 AM
- Huge win for trying to sneak into a first-round bye in the ACC tourney and for the NCAA profile. UVA is a legit Final Four caliber team, in my view.

- On Grayson's last shot: "...and totally redeem yourself!" (said in Jim Carrey Dumb and Dumber voice) (was I the only one cursing Grayson for about 30 seconds consecutively after missing those free throws?)

- With all the noise about the game-winner, I just wanted to re-emphasize what a stud Ingram was tonight. UVa could not contain him for most of the game. I'm surprised K did not continue to ride him down the stretch. Seemed pretty clear that K wanted the ball in Grayson's hands in crunch time, even though Gray was forcing things a bit too much and took some bad shots. Might have been matchup-related, but I was surprised.

- Some folks above alluded to the fact that Gray looked tired. This feels like the common refrain on this board that when a player struggles, he must have been sick/tired/pledging a frat/etc. I actually thought Gray seemed frustrated by the packline (props to Shayok and others for doing a nice job on him), which I sort of feared going in. I think this may have affected his FT shooting. It still feels like he can get mentally rattled when things don't go his way, but that's obviously conjecture. I hope that he can learn to make adjustments against teams with strong interior D and maybe pull up for more mid-range jumpers (which he shoots very well) when his "drive the ball with reckless abandon" schtick is not working.

- GREAT team defense. They held Brogdon relatively in check, didn't allow Perrantes to wreak havoc, and forced a number of bad long 2-pt shots from Gil, Wilkins, and Tobey (who annoyingly nailed a few in the first half). They even forced some TOs on a very disciplined UVA team.

I hate being that guy but Jeff Daniels said that line.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 10:19 AM
That was the best game at Cameron since the UNC at Duke game in 2015. What an atmosphere and what effort displayed by both teams. Virginia went on their run in the first half, and Ingram single handedly got Duke back in the game. Then in the second half, Ingram went bananas. He was shooting unconsciously. The dude looked like he was from another planet. He again single handedly carried us and allowed us to get the lead up to 7. I thought Duke had the game fairly in hand most of the second half but missed free throws and turnovers kept Virginia in it. Duke was whistled for two illegal screens and also Ingram threw an in bounds pass away while trying to find Allen on the sideline. If Duke scores a few baskets there and hit their free throws, I thought Duke could have put Virginia away early and won this by 7-9 points easily. Matt Jones finally found his shot yesterday and played tough defense on Brogdon. Brogdon got 18 I think but it was on 16 shots. He had to earn everything he got. Marshall played great defense on Gill and also came away with some huge defensive rebounds in the second half. Duke let Tobey go on a run for 8 points in the first half - I thought that and then letting Nolte break loose for a 3 was the difference in the first half when Virginia went on their run. If Duke limits that, again, I think Duke wins this game by 7-9 points.

Regarding the Allen last second shot - wow! There is chatter from the usual suspects and Duke conspiracy theorists that it was a travel. I'm still not convinced. I didn't see him take three steps. He took two, was fouled before his first step and after his second step. I also don't think the camera angles they're showing make it conclusive that he was down before the shot was released. It was a heck of an effort either way and an amazing shot. If they would have called a travel there, Cameron would have gone ballistic. If the refs really wanted to enforce freedom of movement rules, that was a clear foul, twice, then.

The last thing I'll say is I find it funny many focus their attention and efforts on one play like that. If the microscope were focused on every play of the game before that, chances are, each fan base could find calls that they didn't agree with. For example, Brogdon extends his left arm and creates contact almost every drive to the rim to push off defenders. I've seen that called an offensive foul many times. Also, Gill initiates a lot of contact in the post with the arm bar, and did it several times to Plumlee yesterday. Again, that could be a foul every time if the refs really focused on the spirit of the freedom of movement rule. Lastly, when dribbling, Perrantes carries the ball a lot. He palms it and doesn't dribble it within the book definition of the rule. Was this whistled for a rule violation? No. So let's focus on the entirety of the game rather than one play. Otherwise, we could go on forever about each call that we didn't agree with, which would be exhausting. If you put another team's jersey on Allen there, would fans be so upset? Likely not. It's confirmation bias - people want to hate Duke and say they get all the calls so they focus on any play they think can be argued to support this notion. That's just reality. The fact of the matter is, Virginia shot 2-11 from 3 and was outrebounded 34-26. Not a successful game plan or blueprint to win on the road in the league to me. Had Virginia won, it would have been a steal. The reality is Duke had control of this game for nearly the entire second half and outplayed Virginia offensively and defensively. The better team won yesterday.

fgb
02-14-2016, 10:23 AM
To be fair, it was a travel. And there was one *before* the shot, too. I didn't see it at first, but a different angle showed 3 steps:

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Regardless, he got hit on the one everyone's mad about, which is why his foot landed before he got the shot off.

Makes up for a lot of the non-calls on UVA, or the weak charge calls, moving screens, etc. Missed calls happen. And they usually happen at the end of games, which is unfortunate. Refs tend to swallow the whistle in those situations. Remember when Matt Jones got hacked on his midcourt shot attempt at the end of the Syracuse game?

The reality of this game was that Duke wins this with no issues if they hit their FTs, especially Allen. He missed the front end of a 1-1 and then both of the ones with Duke up 1 at the end of the game right before the Brodgen reverse lay in. He shoots over 80% from the year from the line but went 7-11. As a team, Duke shot 56% from the line. Gotta hit those FTs, especially against a UVA team that lives off the handsy pack line defense.

What I really was surprised with was how after Ingram scored 11 straight points, Duke didn't go to him for several possessions. That resulted in empty trips on the offensive end. By the time Ingram was able to take another shot, he had "cooled off." You gotta keep feeding him.

Also interesting was how often they put the ball in Grayson Allen's hand down the stretch. I assume they were wanting him to get to the line instead of Ingram but it almost backfired.

MP3 was an unsung hero in this game. Winning the rebounding battle was HUGE.

I got concerned once Brodgen got hot, but it was too little, too late for UVA. Helped that he missed wide open 3s a couple of times.

Just glad the bounces finally went Duke's way/

the "first" step that he counts looks to be not a step, as allen was picking up his dribble.

no question that there is a solid argument that his right foot made contact with the floor before he got the shot off.

also no question that there was contact on the drive; even from this angle, you can see grayson's body react to the body contact. by the defender. who did not have position established. before even the most generous anti duke counting of allen's steps totalled three. which, last time i checked, was referred to as a "foul".

jacone21
02-14-2016, 10:52 AM
Which is why I never go to the ESPN website anymore to read sports news. Like never ever never. I only watch games on their TV channel or WatchESPN App, and almost always keep the volume down where I can barely hear the drivel coming from the announcers lips (which in most cases by the way, is a producer in their ear telling them what to discuss and which side to take in the discussion. Very much "reality tv" with a producer dictating discussion as you allude to above).

Same here. I call it TMZspn.

Faison1
02-14-2016, 11:13 AM
I hate being that guy but Jeff Daniels said that line.

Exactly right....it was said during their reunion in a Nebraska cornfield...."Just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber..."

duke4ever19
02-14-2016, 11:21 AM
Here's a link to Tony Bennet's postgame presser in case anyone hasn't heard it.

www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Furniture
02-14-2016, 11:26 AM
Why not start a separate thread for those that want to debate the last play "travel or not a travel, that is the question"?

rsvman
02-14-2016, 12:15 PM
Awesome game yesterday except for that stretch early in the first half when we looked dead in the water and let them go on a 19-3 run. Thornton had a great game. The tattooed toothpick was en fuego for the last part of the first half and the first part of the second. Amazing!

We got stuck on 51. I mean, really stuck. I didn't rewind it to find out how much of the second half we spent with 51 points, but it was probably about 4 minutes. When Brandon got fouled he missed the front end of a 1-and-1 that would've got us off 51, but it was not to be. When Grayson got fouled I thought, "Finally, we're going to get off of 51," but he missed the front end of his 1-and-1, also. It was like the curse of the number 51!

Anyway, all's well that ends well, and this one was an ending for the ages.


Sort of like the Clemson game that Dave McClure won on a last-second floater. I remember that there was some issue with the clock, and people thought we got more time than we deserved, or something like that? When we went to Clemson to play there, a lot of students had huge clocks around their necks a la Flavor Flav. That was hysterical. Too bad we don't have a game AT UVa; the students could hold up the "walk" signs they have a crosswalks (you know, the stick figure walking man).


The thing I love most about controversial Duke wins is that Duke wins. :cool:

jimsumner
02-14-2016, 12:52 PM
Duke went to Ingram when Brogdon was guarding Allen.

Duke went to Allen when Brogdon was guarding Ingram.

These facts are related.

Indoor66
02-14-2016, 12:56 PM
- Huge win for trying to sneak into a first-round bye in the ACC tourney and for the NCAA profile. UVA is a legit Final Four caliber team, in my view.

- On Grayson's last shot: "...and totally redeem yourself!" (said in Jim Carrey Dumb and Dumber voice) (was I the only one cursing Grayson for about 30 seconds consecutively after missing those free throws?)

- With all the noise about the game-winner, I just wanted to re-emphasize what a stud Ingram was tonight. UVa could not contain him for most of the game. I'm surprised K did not continue to ride him down the stretch. Seemed pretty clear that K wanted the ball in Grayson's hands in crunch time, even though Gray was forcing things a bit too much and took some bad shots. Might have been matchup-related, but I was surprised.

- Some folks above alluded to the fact that Gray looked tired. This feels like the common refrain on this board that when a player struggles, he must have been sick/tired/pledging a frat/etc. I actually thought Gray seemed frustrated by the packline (props to Shayok and others for doing a nice job on him), which I sort of feared going in. I think this may have affected his FT shooting. It still feels like he can get mentally rattled when things don't go his way, but that's obviously conjecture. I hope that he can learn to make adjustments against teams with strong interior D and maybe pull up for more mid-range jumpers (which he shoots very well) when his "drive the ball with reckless abandon" schtick is not working.

- GREAT team defense. They held Brogdon relatively in check, didn't allow Perrantes to wreak havoc, and forced a number of bad long 2-pt shots from Gil, Wilkins, and Tobey (who annoyingly nailed a few in the first half). They even forced some TOs on a very disciplined UVA team.

Grayson, or any other Duke player, never has to redeem himself to us fans, only to himself.

CDu
02-14-2016, 12:58 PM
Duke went to Ingram when Brogdon was guarding Allen.

Duke went to Allen when Brogdon was guarding Ingram.

These facts are related.

Yep. Duke took full advantage of having two superstars last night with UVa having just one superstar wing defender to counter.

Brogdon was amazing last night. He blanketed Allen for 25 minutes. Then, when it became clear that UVa couldn't otherwise guard Ingram, he blanketed Ingram for 15 minutes. Unfortunately for UVa he couldn't guard both guys at the same time. So whoever wasn't being guarded by Brogdon just torched UVa.

fuse
02-14-2016, 01:01 PM
Awesome game yesterday except for that stretch early in the first half when we looked dead in the water and let them go on a 19-3 run. Thornton had a great game. The tattooed toothpick was en fuego for the last part of the first half and the first part of the second. Amazing!

We got stuck on 51. I mean, really stuck. I didn't rewind it to find out how much of the second half we spent with 51 points, but it was probably about 4 minutes. When Brandon got fouled he missed the front end of a 1-and-1 that would've got us off 51, but it was not to be. When Grayson got fouled I thought, "Finally, we're going to get off of 51," but he missed the front end of his 1-and-1, also. It was like the curse of the number 51!

Anyway, all's well that ends well, and this one was an ending for the ages.


Sort of like the Clemson game that Dave McClure won on a last-second floater. I remember that there was some issue with the clock, and people thought we got more time than we deserved, or something like that? When we went to Clemson to play there, a lot of students had huge clocks around their necks a la Flavor Flav. That was hysterical. Too bad we don't have a game AT UVa; the students could hold up the "walk" signs they have a crosswalks (you know, the stick figure walking man).


The thing I love most about controversial Duke wins is that Duke wins. :cool:

If I had been drinking while reading this, I might be cleaning up a big mess.

I literally laughed out loud.
"Tattooed Toothpick" - what a fantastic image and nickname.
Never heard that one before. Kudos for originality!

uh_no
02-14-2016, 01:14 PM
lost in the kerfuffle about the last play is how well the defense played.

Given that we were stuck on 61 for quite some time, we were STILL in the game. That's 100% credit to the defense for forcing virginia to take tricky shots. They did miss at least one open 3....but that stretch the D really came through.

The overall performance was incredible as well.

we gave up a 105 for the game, which doesn't sound great, as it's over 100 and our current average....but UVA is currently a 117+ offense. That means that our performance was fantastic to keep them so far below their average. How fantastic?

105*100/117 = 89

Our performance is the equivalent of what you would expect from a team with an 89 adjusted efficiency....which for those counting at home...is better than any other team in the country. Funnily enough, that's almost exactly the same number we had against louisville.

This past week, duke played some of the best defense in the country.

Mike Corey
02-14-2016, 01:26 PM
Huge performance by our team, win or lose. The progress is tremendous, especially on defense.

The Gordog
02-14-2016, 01:46 PM
I suggested it and posted a video that shows that he walked before the play. It was pretty obvious.

https://twitter.com/MrrSandman/status/698668972330348544

Watch when he picks up the dribble then watch his steps. Definitely took 3.

That said, glad it went uncalled...

Also in total agreement with the rest, including the uncalled foul.

That video is B.S. First, he starts counting steps when the dribble is still active, and in the freeze frame at the end when his foot his the floor the ball is clearly elongated, indicating it's leaving his hand.

Troublemaker
02-14-2016, 01:55 PM
There are no fouls or violations unless the ref's call them. That is the reality of the game - and all games. Everything else is a "rub of the green (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+rub+of+the+green)." Get over it and yourselves.

I dig this sentiment.

Throughout basketball history, officials have routinely swallowed their whistles on game-ending plays and allowed the fate of the game to ride on whether the last shot is missed or made.

For UVA fans or anyone else to focus so much on the travel is unbecoming of privileged watchers of a great game between classy participants. (Not saying Duke fans are above it. If Grayson had missed, we would likely be whining about the contact on the play.)

Bottom line, and keeping in mind how officials have historically reffed game-ending plays, what we have is this: basketball player drove, defender defended, and basketball player put the basketball through the hoop. Grayson made a great, tough shot to win the game, and that should not be overlooked. Basketball player drove, defender defended, basketball player made his shot and deserved the win.

uh_no
02-14-2016, 02:45 PM
I dig this sentiment.

Throughout basketball history, officials have routinely swallowed their whistles on game-ending plays and allowed the fate of the game to ride on whether the last shot is missed or made.

For UVA fans or anyone else to focus so much on the travel is unbecoming of privileged watchers of a great game between classy participants. (Not saying Duke fans are above it. If Grayson had missed, we would likely be whining about the contact on the play.)

Bottom line, and keeping in mind how officials have historically reffed game-ending plays, what we have is this: basketball player drove, defender defended, and basketball player put the basketball through the hoop. Grayson made a great, tough shot to win the game, and that should not be overlooked. Basketball player drove, defender defended, basketball player made his shot and deserved the win.

this is a very different sentiment than was viewed around here than after, say, the syracuse game.

cspan37421
02-14-2016, 03:15 PM
There are no fouls or violations unless the ref's call them. That is the reality of the game - and all games. Everything else is a "rub of the green (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+rub+of+the+green)." Get over it and yourselves.

Semantics.

I think I get your point, which seems to deal with the "official record" of the game, but this strikes me as claiming the tree that fell in the forest, when no one was around to hear it, didn't make a sound. I beg to differ, not only on metaphysical grounds (w/r/t the tree) but empirical (w/r/t games) as well. We can know the rules of the game. We can play back sequences in slow motion to get a more careful look (and focus our attention) in ways the referees cannot hope to do in real time (unless the rules allow/require, in limited circumstances). Your position, if I understand it correctly, is tantamount to there being no blocks in the back during the last play of the Duke-Miami football game.

I'll go as far as to concede that officially, Miami was credited with the win. That last play was problematic, as was the nature of the review. And the ACC officially recognized the latter, IIRC, and suspended the officials (though not for missing the blocks in the back). My guess is that there have been games where officials were subsequently suspended for egregiously wrong calls/no-calls/violations, even though, yes, "officially" they didn't occur. But if they didn't occur at all (since you didn't use the modifier "officially"), then for what sin of omission or commission would they be suspended?

It would be classier if you had left out your last sentence, too.

rsvman
02-14-2016, 03:23 PM
If I had been drinking while reading this, I might be cleaning up a big mess.

I literally laughed out loud.
"Tattooed Toothpick" - what a fantastic image and nickname.
Never heard that one before. Kudos for originality!

Wish I could take credit, but I came across that nickname in a blog I sometimes read. The name really is pretty great.


At my house, when we see someone (usually a supermodel) who is waayyyy too thin, we always say "eat a cookie." This, coupled with the fame of the "Cookie Monster" on Sesame Street, led my son to nickname Henson "eat-a-cookie monster." Ingram is OUR version of the "eat-a-cookie monster."

cspan37421
02-14-2016, 03:23 PM
Throughout basketball history, officials have routinely swallowed their whistles on game-ending plays and allowed the fate of the game to ride on whether the last shot is missed or made.


I'm not denying this. But I fail to see how refusing to call rule violations near the end of closely contested games makes the game of basketball better. I'm with Bobby Knight on this one.

devildeac
02-14-2016, 05:15 PM
Semantics.

I think I get your point, which seems to deal with the "official record" of the game, but this strikes me as claiming the tree that fell in the forest, when no one was around to hear it, didn't make a sound. I beg to differ, not only on metaphysical grounds (w/r/t the tree) but empirical (w/r/t games) as well. We can know the rules of the game. We can play back sequences in slow motion to get a more careful look (and focus our attention) in ways the referees cannot hope to do in real time (unless the rules allow/require, in limited circumstances). Your position, if I understand it correctly, is tantamount to there being no blocks in the back during the last play of the Duke-Miami football game.

I'll go as far as to concede that officially, Miami was credited with the win. That last play was problematic, as was the nature of the review. And the ACC officially recognized the latter, IIRC, and suspended the officials (though not for missing the blocks in the back). My guess is that there have been games where officials were subsequently suspended for egregiously wrong calls/no-calls/violations, even though, yes, "officially" they didn't occur. But if they didn't occur at all (since you didn't use the modifier "officially"), then for what sin of omission or commission would they be suspended?

It would be classier if you had left out your last sentence, too.

Just as a reminder, their was a flag on the field, the referee (after a conference) announced it was for a block in the back and there would be a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul and miami would have 1 untimed play. After the ~10 minute review, they incorrectly announced that no miami player was down and there was no block in the back. So, they failed royally on 2 counts: 1) We did make a legal tackle. 2) That particular penalty is non-reviewable so they violated the rule book by changing their call.

devildeac
02-14-2016, 05:17 PM
I'm not denying this. But I fail to see how refusing to call rule violations near the end of closely contested games makes the game of basketball better. I'm with Bobby Knight on this one.

Hell, even *wheat* agrees with this sentiment. A foul is a foul whether it's on the first or last play of the 40 minute game (or longer for OT obviously).

akg4y
02-14-2016, 05:24 PM
I refrained from posting right after the game because I was upset and it would have served no purpose. Losing sucks, period... losing like this makes it worse, especially when we havent won @Cameron in so long. Now that Im calmer, here is my post from the UVA boards:

----------------------
(replying to a post about refs being poor for not having seen the travel)
Not all 3 refs are looking at the guy with the ball.
At best 2 of them should be looking at the ball, 1 if not 2 of them would be looking for fouls elsewhere.

It was a close play, I didnt realize he traveled until they showed the replay. Sure it looked funny, but I dont want refs making calls when they arent sure, I hate it when they call what they "think" they saw when there isnt actually a violation so I cant just say in this case they should have.

There are 4 points of contention on this one play:
#1 - Did Allen travel even before his foot landed? - I dont think he did. I think he took the allowed 2 steps after picking up the dribble and jumped. At that point he was in the air and had to either pass or shoot.

#2 - Did Allen foul Shayok by extending his forearm - He definitely extended his forearm and created space, but our guys do that all the time on drives also if you watch them, so IMO it was a good no call.

#3 - Did Shayok foul Allen? - There was body contact on Allens drive before he jumped for sure, again I think a good no call because Allen initiated the contact, but Shayok was still moving (albeit backwards, away from Allen) so offensive/defensive can be argued ad nauseum on that.

#4 - Did Allen travel by landing before getting the shot off - This is not in question. Literally EVERYONE agrees it was an up and down violation after seeing the replays, still shots, and slow mo. Did the refs swallow the whistle? I dont think so, I think they were watching for a foul on the shot and werent looking at his foot and hand in the split second between when the foot touched and the shot went off. Yes, it looked funny and our brains were thinking 'hm that may have been a travel' but I dont want refs making a decision like that if they arent sure... I would have much rather had Allen take that awful shot with the 5% chance it had of going in, and unfortunately for us, it did.

---------------------------------------------------


Look, we got outrebounded offensively and defensively. You had more steals. You got way more fouls called on us in the 2nd half, some of which are debateable but if anything it helped us because your foul shooting was atrocious, although arguably it put Wilkins in foul trouble which greatly helped your offense. We shot 2-11 from 3. We let Jones go 4-5 from 3 and Ingram tore us up when Wilkins was out.

Bottom line is, we played only well enough to make the game a toss up and we lost the toss.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 05:40 PM
I refrained from posting right after the game because I was upset and it would have served no purpose. Losing sucks, period... losing like this makes it worse, especially when we havent won @Cameron in so long. Now that Im calmer, here is my post from the UVA boards:

----------------------
(replying to a post about refs being poor for not having seen the travel)
Not all 3 refs are looking at the guy with the ball.
At best 2 of them should be looking at the ball, 1 if not 2 of them would be looking for fouls elsewhere.

It was a close play, I didnt realize he traveled until they showed the replay. Sure it looked funny, but I dont want refs making calls when they arent sure, I hate it when they call what they "think" they saw when there isnt actually a violation so I cant just say in this case they should have.

There are 4 points of contention on this one play:
#1 - Did Allen travel even before his foot landed? - I dont think he did. I think he took the allowed 2 steps after picking up the dribble and jumped. At that point he was in the air and had to either pass or shoot.

#2 - Did Allen foul Shayok by extending his forearm - He definitely extended his forearm and created space, but our guys do that all the time on drives also if you watch them, so IMO it was a good no call.

#3 - Did Shayok foul Allen? - There was body contact on Allens drive before he jumped for sure, again I think a good no call because Allen initiated the contact, but Shayok was still moving (albeit backwards, away from Allen) so offensive/defensive can be argued ad nauseum on that.

#4 - Did Allen travel by landing before getting the shot off - This is not in question. Literally EVERYONE agrees it was an up and down violation after seeing the replays, still shots, and slow mo. Did the refs swallow the whistle? I dont think so, I think they were watching for a foul on the shot and werent looking at his foot and hand in the split second between when the foot touched and the shot went off. Yes, it looked funny and our brains were thinking 'hm that may have been a travel' but I dont want refs making a decision like that if they arent sure... I would have much rather had Allen take that awful shot with the 5% chance it had of going in, and unfortunately for us, it did.

---------------------------------------------------


Look, we got outrebounded offensively and defensively. You had more steals. You got way more fouls called on us in the 2nd half, some of which are debateable but if anything it helped us because your foul shooting was atrocious, although arguably it put Wilkins in foul trouble which greatly helped your offense. We shot 2-11 from 3. We let Jones go 4-5 from 3 and Ingram tore us up when Wilkins was out.

Bottom line is, we played only well enough to make the game a toss up and we lost the toss.

I'd also throw in this: Virginia ran their final offensive play with way too much time on the clock. Shayok looked like he got into the air for a jump shot with 12 seconds left. Once in the air, it looked like he got flustered since Thornton was playing such tight defense on him. He kind of just threw it up to Brogdon who hit the reverse layup with 9.9 seconds left. On the road down 1 with 27 seconds left, the other team (Duke in this case) shouldn't get the ball back with 9.9 seconds left. That's an eternity in college basketball. It allowed Duke to dribble halfway up the floor and call timeout with 6 seconds left and be able to in bound the ball at halfcourt. It also then allowed Allen to pass to Plumlee, get the ball back, maneuver around the hedge and make the game winning shot.

If Virginia finds themselves in an end of game situation like that down 1 again, they should run more clock before attempting a shot. I'd have run the clock down to 5 or 6 seconds before making that pass to Brogdon. That way, Duke would have gotten the ball back with 2 to 3 seconds left in the game rather than 9.9 seconds.

devildeac
02-14-2016, 05:40 PM
I refrained from posting right after the game because I was upset and it would have served no purpose. Losing sucks, period... losing like this makes it worse, especially when we havent won @Cameron in so long. Now that Im calmer, here is my post from the UVA boards:

----------------------
(replying to a post about refs being poor for not having seen the travel)
Not all 3 refs are looking at the guy with the ball.
At best 2 of them should be looking at the ball, 1 if not 2 of them would be looking for fouls elsewhere.

It was a close play, I didnt realize he traveled until they showed the replay. Sure it looked funny, but I dont want refs making calls when they arent sure, I hate it when they call what they "think" they saw when there isnt actually a violation so I cant just say in this case they should have.

There are 4 points of contention on this one play:
#1 - Did Allen travel even before his foot landed? - I dont think he did. I think he took the allowed 2 steps after picking up the dribble and jumped. At that point he was in the air and had to either pass or shoot.

#2 - Did Allen foul Shayok by extending his forearm - He definitely extended his forearm and created space, but our guys do that all the time on drives also if you watch them, so IMO it was a good no call.

#3 - Did Shayok foul Allen? - There was body contact on Allens drive before he jumped for sure, again I think a good no call because Allen initiated the contact, but Shayok was still moving (albeit backwards, away from Allen) so offensive/defensive can be argued ad nauseum on that.

#4 - Did Allen travel by landing before getting the shot off - This is not in question. Literally EVERYONE agrees it was an up and down violation after seeing the replays, still shots, and slow mo. Did the refs swallow the whistle? I dont think so, I think they were watching for a foul on the shot and werent looking at his foot and hand in the split second between when the foot touched and the shot went off. Yes, it looked funny and our brains were thinking 'hm that may have been a travel' but I dont want refs making a decision like that if they arent sure... I would have much rather had Allen take that awful shot with the 5% chance it had of going in, and unfortunately for us, it did.

---------------------------------------------------


Look, we got outrebounded offensively and defensively. You had more steals. You got way more fouls called on us in the 2nd half, some of which are debateable but if anything it helped us because your foul shooting was atrocious, although arguably it put Wilkins in foul trouble which greatly helped your offense. We shot 2-11 from 3. We let Jones go 4-5 from 3 and Ingram tore us up when Wilkins was out.

Bottom line is, we played only well enough to make the game a toss up and we lost the toss.

Bennett (jokingly, according to my link earlier in the thread) told K after the game he thought there was a travel. K replied he thought it was a foul. When Allen was asked if he wanted to see a replay, he said no because you might see a foul. So it depends on which colored pair of glasses you're wearing. Or, you're espn wanting video/website hits (bastards).

jimsumner
02-14-2016, 05:57 PM
I'd also throw in this: Virginia ran their final offensive play with way too much time on the clock. Shayok looked like he got into the air for a jump shot with 12 seconds left. Once in the air, it looked like he got flustered since Thornton was playing such tight defense on him. He kind of just threw it up to Brogdon who hit the reverse layup with 9.9 seconds left. On the road down 1 with 27 seconds left, the other team (Duke in this case) shouldn't get the ball back with 9.9 seconds left. That's an eternity in college basketball. It allowed Duke to dribble halfway up the floor and call timeout with 6 seconds left and be able to in bound the ball at halfcourt. It also then allowed Allen to pass to Plumlee, get the ball back, maneuver around the hedge and make the game winning shot.

If Virginia finds themselves in an end of game situation like that down 1 again, they should run more clock before attempting a shot. I'd have run the clock down to 5 or 6 seconds before making that pass to Brogdon. That way, Duke would have gotten the ball back with 2 to 3 seconds left in the game rather than 9.9 seconds.

The counter-argument is that if you wait that long, you have a much reduced chance of converting an offensive rebound and if you miss and don't rebound, it's too late for missed free throws by the other team to do you any good.

If you're tied, then your strategy is sound.

But they weren't tied. Conventional wisdom suggests that a team in that situation look for the first good shot it gets. Waiting longer is rolling the dice. As is taking the shot with 10 seconds left. But given my druthers, I'm not holding the ball until two seconds are left, down a point.

akg4y
02-14-2016, 06:11 PM
Completely agree... I was glad we took the shot with time left because if you are losing you want as many chances as possible to tie or win. The only time I can think of where I would want to take the shot with no time left is if playing on the road against a clearly better team and you are shooting to win... and even then Id still lean towards shooting early.

rsvman
02-14-2016, 06:17 PM
I'd also throw in this: Virginia ran their final offensive play with way too much time on the clock. Shayok looked like he got into the air for a jump shot with 12 seconds left. Once in the air, it looked like he got flustered since Thornton was playing such tight defense on him. He kind of just threw it up to Brogdon who hit the reverse layup with 9.9 seconds left. On the road down 1 with 27 seconds left, the other team (Duke in this case) shouldn't get the ball back with 9.9 seconds left. That's an eternity in college basketball. It allowed Duke to dribble halfway up the floor and call timeout with 6 seconds left and be able to in bound the ball at halfcourt. It also then allowed Allen to pass to Plumlee, get the ball back, maneuver around the hedge and make the game winning shot.

If Virginia finds themselves in an end of game situation like that down 1 again, they should run more clock before attempting a shot. I'd have run the clock down to 5 or 6 seconds before making that pass to Brogdon. That way, Duke would have gotten the ball back with 2 to 3 seconds left in the game rather than 9.9 seconds.

couldn't disagree more strongly with this. you wait a lot longer if the game is TIED, but if you're trailing, you try to score as soon as you can get a good shot.

Newton_14
02-14-2016, 06:38 PM
I refrained from posting right after the game because I was upset and it would have served no purpose. Losing sucks, period... losing like this makes it worse, especially when we havent won @Cameron in so long. Now that Im calmer, here is my post from the UVA boards:

----------------------
(replying to a post about refs being poor for not having seen the travel)
Not all 3 refs are looking at the guy with the ball.
At best 2 of them should be looking at the ball, 1 if not 2 of them would be looking for fouls elsewhere.

It was a close play, I didnt realize he traveled until they showed the replay. Sure it looked funny, but I dont want refs making calls when they arent sure, I hate it when they call what they "think" they saw when there isnt actually a violation so I cant just say in this case they should have.

There are 4 points of contention on this one play:
#1 - Did Allen travel even before his foot landed? - I dont think he did. I think he took the allowed 2 steps after picking up the dribble and jumped. At that point he was in the air and had to either pass or shoot.

#2 - Did Allen foul Shayok by extending his forearm - He definitely extended his forearm and created space, but our guys do that all the time on drives also if you watch them, so IMO it was a good no call.

#3 - Did Shayok foul Allen? - There was body contact on Allens drive before he jumped for sure, again I think a good no call because Allen initiated the contact, but Shayok was still moving (albeit backwards, away from Allen) so offensive/defensive can be argued ad nauseum on that.

#4 - Did Allen travel by landing before getting the shot off - This is not in question. Literally EVERYONE agrees it was an up and down violation after seeing the replays, still shots, and slow mo. Did the refs swallow the whistle? I dont think so, I think they were watching for a foul on the shot and werent looking at his foot and hand in the split second between when the foot touched and the shot went off. Yes, it looked funny and our brains were thinking 'hm that may have been a travel' but I dont want refs making a decision like that if they arent sure... I would have much rather had Allen take that awful shot with the 5% chance it had of going in, and unfortunately for us, it did.

---------------------------------------------------


Look, we got outrebounded offensively and defensively. You had more steals. You got way more fouls called on us in the 2nd half, some of which are debateable but if anything it helped us because your foul shooting was atrocious, although arguably it put Wilkins in foul trouble which greatly helped your offense. We shot 2-11 from 3. We let Jones go 4-5 from 3 and Ingram tore us up when Wilkins was out.

Bottom line is, we played only well enough to make the game a toss up and we lost the toss.

Good post and thanks for putting it up. I think at the end of the day, terrible free throw shooting by Duke prevented them from winning comfortably, and allowed us to be treated to two incredibly difficult circus shots in the final seconds. Brogdon's shot was just unreal. I am still stunned he had the wherewithal to attempt it vs going with a left handed jumphook, which would seem to have been the more logical move. Shayok played great defense on the last play and Grayson played thru the contact and willed it into the basket.

Like I said earlier, a classic game between arguably the two best teams in the conference at the moment.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 07:21 PM
The counter-argument is that if you wait that long, you have a much reduced chance of converting an offensive rebound and if you miss and don't rebound, it's too late for missed free throws by the other team to do you any good.

If you're tied, then your strategy is sound.

But they weren't tied. Conventional wisdom suggests that a team in that situation look for the first good shot it gets. Waiting longer is rolling the dice. As is taking the shot with 10 seconds left. But given my druthers, I'm not holding the ball until two seconds are left, down a point.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest holding the ball until 2 seconds are left. I said passing it for the layup with 12 seconds left was way too soon. Go back and watch the replay - Perrantes actually dribbles into the teeth of the defense with 19 seconds left and is cut off by Marshall and Grayson. Conventional wisdom says dribble some clock out there. Burn another 6-7 seconds there, then go to the basket. Shayok is passed the ball with about 12 seconds left and if you go back and watch, he looks like he wants to shoot a jumper with 12 seconds left with the potential for an offensive rebound by his team, but he is being blanketed by Thornton. He looks like he panics and the only guy he can pass it to is Brogdon on the block. Brogdon actually pushed off on Matt Jones to become open on the block when running the baseline. Again, I'm not saying shoot with 2 seconds left. But shooting with 12 seconds left and panicking and tossing it down to Brogdon with 9.9 seconds left was too soon. Another 4-5 seconds run off he clock by Perrantes by dribbling at the top of the key rather than dribbling into the teeth of the defense would have benefitted Virginia. A traditionally patient team that runs a patented patient offense looking for the best shot panicked at crunch time. Running that same play with 9-10 seconds left rather than 12-14 seconds left allows the same thing you mentioned - a possible tip in off a missed shot. Had they made a shot with 5-6 seconds left rather than 9.9, there's virtually no way Duke could have called timeout at half court and set up a reasonable play. Allowing Duke to regroup and run a play from the sideline on their basket's side of the court led to Virginia's demise.

sagegrouse
02-14-2016, 07:30 PM
Nowhere in my post did I suggest holding the ball until 2 seconds are left. I said passing it for the layup with 12 seconds left was way too soon. Go back and watch the replay - Perrantes actually dribbles into the teeth of the defense with 19 seconds left and is cut off by Marshall and Grayson. Conventional wisdom says dribble some clock out there. Burn another 6-7 seconds there, then go to the basket. Shayok is passed the ball with about 12 seconds left and if you go back and watch, he looks like he wants to shoot a jumper with 12 seconds left with the potential for an offensive rebound by his team, but he is being blanketed by Thornton. He looks like he panics and the only guy he can pass it to is Brogdon on the block. Brogdon actually pushed off on Matt Jones to become open on the block when running the baseline. Again, I'm not saying shoot with 2 seconds left. But shooting with 12 seconds left and panicking and tossing it down to Brogdon with 9.9 seconds left was too soon. Another 4-5 seconds run off he clock by Perrantes by dribbling at the top of the key rather than dribbling into the teeth of the defense would have benefitted Virginia. A traditionally patient team that runs a patented patient offense looking for the best shot panicked at crunch time. Running that same play with 9-10 seconds left rather than 12-14 seconds left allows the same thing you mentioned - a possible tip in off a missed shot. Had they made a shot with 5-6 seconds left rather than 9.9, there's virtually no way Duke could have called timeout at half court and set up a reasonable play. Allowing Duke to regroup and run a play from the sideline on their basket's side of the court led to Virginia's demise.

Cameron, this is missing the forest for the trees. If you are behind in the last minute, you go for the first good shot. That maximizes your opportunities should you fail to make the shot: rebound, steal, foul, etc.

There is a choice of what kind of play you run -- driving towards the basket or trying to set up an outside shot, which may have a better chance of a long rebound.

denovo
02-14-2016, 07:38 PM
he's right! the guy is right. there WAS a foul in addition to the travel, coach K. it was an offensive foul by grayson allen on marial shayok. also a phantom head jerk to imitate "contact" when his elbow was doing all the initiating on shayok. seen in great frame by frame style here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6JR-qVGew

ah well. cameron home cooking won't be able to protect duke in DC. good luck.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 07:42 PM
Cameron, this is missing the forest for the trees. If you are behind in the last minute, you go for the first good shot. That maximizes your opportunities should you fail to make the shot: rebound, steal, foul, etc.

There is a choice of what kind of play you run -- driving towards the basket or trying to set up an outside shot, which may have a better chance of a long rebound.

Your opportunities for a rebound and tip in are the same with 9.9 seconds left as they are with 5-6 seconds left. And if you're behind in the last minute, going for the first good shot is a strategy that fails to take into account how much time you're giving the opposing team to counter. For example, Austin Rivers and Duke were down 84-82 at UNC in 2012 with less than 15 seconds left. UNC missed a free throw and Rivers brought the ball up with about 12 seconds left. He actually dribbled it out rather than hunting a shot until virtually the buzzer sounded. This may have been a bit too late had he missed the shot but the point is he didn't run into the teeth of the defense with 12 seconds left on the clock like Perrantes did. Rivers could have been a lot less patient and gone for a layup or a pass with time still on the clock but waited it out and went for the win. Just showing there's more than one way to skin a cat.

DukieInKansas
02-14-2016, 07:49 PM
he's right! the guy is right. there WAS a foul in addition to the travel, coach K. it was an offensive foul by grayson allen on marial shayok. also a phantom head jerk to imitate "contact" when his elbow was doing all the initiating on shayok. seen in great frame by frame style here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6JR-qVGew

ah well. cameron home cooking won't be able to protect duke in DC. good luck.

Interesting video and take on the end of the game. Not sure who or why Tony Bennett is labeled a "sore loser". I've seen everyone referring to him, and UVA, as a class act. (Might have to deduct one from that for the maker of the video.) As to the "head snap", I thought it was an attempt by GA to get a look at the basket - and not an attempt to draw a foul.

dukelifer
02-14-2016, 07:50 PM
he's right! the guy is right. there WAS a foul in addition to the travel, coach K. it was an offensive foul by grayson allen on marial shayok. also a phantom head jerk to imitate "contact" when his elbow was doing all the initiating on shayok. seen in great frame by frame style here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6JR-qVGew

ah well. cameron home cooking won't be able to protect duke in DC. good luck.

Didn't the defensive player not establish position, leave his feet without giving Allen a chance to go up and have his arms at an angle? I don't see this as clearcut.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 07:50 PM
Another example would be LeVance Fields vs Duke at Madison Square Garden in 2007. Pitt was down 64-62 and he burned a bit more clock and dribbled more before making a game winning 3. He shot a 3 with 7 seconds left, not 12. Duke got the ball back with 4 seconds, not 9.9. Burning more clock would have benefitted Virginia.

sagegrouse
02-14-2016, 07:56 PM
Your opportunities for a rebound and tip in are the same with 9.9 seconds left as they are with 5-6 seconds left. And if you're behind in the last minute, going for the first good shot is a strategy that fails to take into account how much time you're giving the opposing team to counter. For example, Austin Rivers and Duke were down 84-82 at UNC in 2012 with less than 15 seconds left. UNC missed a free throw and Rivers brought the ball up with about 12 seconds left. He actually dribbled it out rather than hunting a shot until virtually the buzzer sounded. This may have been a bit too late had he missed the shot but the point is he didn't run into the teeth of the defense with 12 seconds left on the clock like Perrantes did. He could have been a lot less patient and gone for a layup or a pass with time still on the clock but waited it out and went for the win. Just showing there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Sorry, we are on different wave lengths. Ten seconds vs. six seconds? That gives you a chance to foul the other team and run a play. More time is better when you are behind.

Yeah, Austin Freakin' Rivers! It took the entire time to set up Zeller where Austin could get off a shot. Meanwhile, in the corner, Seth Curry was going nuts at Austin's delay.

All else said, it would have been a shame to lose on that fluky shot by Brogdon.

denovo
02-14-2016, 07:58 PM
Didn't the defensive player not establish position, leave his feet without giving Allen a chance to go up and have his arms at an angle? I don't see this as clearcut.

completely agree, it's not clear cut. but shayok stayed in front of his man and left the ground at the same instant as allen. looking at the slow motion at the point of contact (2:03 in the video), shayok's arms may not have been completely orthogonal to the ground, but they were maybe 80-85 degrees). there is, however, a clear elbow to the face of shayok. if you want a foul on shayok for contact, it is equally as clearly a foul on allen. say those cancel out, it's still a travel violation. missed call on the travel, hard to argue.

a win is a win though, so congrats to duke. UVA got the lucky swag against WFU and Cal, so it was bound to turn around. those games, however, were not decided by missed calls. good luck in the ACCT.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 08:00 PM
Another example would be Shabazz Napier vs Florida in the 2013-2014 season at UConn. Down 64-63, Napier didn't shoot until 3.6 seconds left, rebounded his own miss off the backboard and hit a game winner to give UConn a 65-64 win over Florida.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 08:03 PM
Sorry, we are on different wave lengths. Ten seconds vs. six seconds? That gives you a chance to foul the other team and run a play. More time is better when you are behind.

Yeah, Austin Freakin' Rivers! It took the entire time to set up Zeller where Austin could get off a shot. Meanwhile, in the corner, Seth Curry was going nuts at Austin's delay.

All else said, it would have been a shame to lose on that fluky shot by Brogdon.

I'm just saying, the go for the first good shot strategy may be your favorite strategy and a play it safe strategy (and really a fundamentally sound strategy), but I've given three examples of opposing strategies that actually resulted in teams in similar positions, as Virginia was yesterday, ending up winning the game. The strategy you are proposing and a proponent of, as we all saw, resulted in a loss yesterday.

DukieInKansas
02-14-2016, 08:10 PM
completely agree, it's not clear cut. but shayok stayed in front of his man and left the ground at the same instant as allen. looking at the slow motion at the point of contact (2:03 in the video), shayok's arms may not have been completely orthogonal to the ground, but they were maybe 80-85 degrees). there is, however, a clear elbow to the face of shayok. if you want a foul on shayok for contact, it is equally as clearly a foul on allen. say those cancel out, it's still a travel violation. missed call on the travel, hard to argue.

a win is a win though, so congrats to duke. UVA got the lucky swag against WFU and Cal, so it was bound to turn around. those games, however, were not decided by missed calls. good luck in the ACCT.

Much easier to call a game in slo-mo, though. The refs have to call it in real time with lots of action around them. Not going to get everything right - no matter what color glasses you are wearing.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 08:11 PM
And all the proponents for the go for the first good shot strategy, can we all agree the shot Brogdon took was NOT a high percentage or good shot? He basically flung the ball over his shoulder facing away from the basket. That wasn't even a high percentage shot. He hit a circus shot. Shayok wanted a jumper and panicked and hit Brogdon in an awkward spot and he went all Barnum and Bailey's circus hitting a theatrical shot. Gill thought Shayok was shooting and started boxing out Plumlee. Perrantes was standing around watching Shayok and I'm assuming he thought he was going to shoot it. Tobey began pushing Ingram under the basket to try and get Shayok's rebound. Brogdon wasn't even ready for the pass and had to push off on Matt Jones under the basket to catch the pass. Bottom line is, that WAS NOT a good shot. Give him credit, he hit a tough, improbable shot.

Not exactly how you draw up that possession if you're Tony Bennett.

Newton_14
02-14-2016, 08:18 PM
completely agree, it's not clear cut. but shayok stayed in front of his man and left the ground at the same instant as allen. looking at the slow motion at the point of contact (2:03 in the video), shayok's arms may not have been completely orthogonal to the ground, but they were maybe 80-85 degrees). there is, however, a clear elbow to the face of shayok. if you want a foul on shayok for contact, it is equally as clearly a foul on allen. say those cancel out, it's still a travel violation. missed call on the travel, hard to argue.

a win is a win though, so congrats to duke. UVA got the lucky swag against WFU and Cal, so it was bound to turn around. those games, however, were not decided by missed calls. good luck in the ACCT.


Wow, sour grapes much? Foul on Allen? Laughable. The ongoing whinefest about supposed head snaps? unbecoming.

Duke played better for 40 minutes than uva and earned the win. Brogdon pushed off on his winning shot. Not called. Duke fans didn't complain. Guy made an incredible play in a high tense situation. As did Grayson on the other end.

And as any coach, player, fan will tell you, no game is decided by one play. Get a few more rebounds. Find a way to stop Ingram and Allen at the same time vs the one not being guarded by Brogdon having a field day. Or, have Gill in the game from the 7 minute mark to the 3 minute mark rather than Tobey.

Ifs, ands, and buts.....can be pointed out in every game. If Grayson is normal and makes the two free throws at the end, (plus doesn't miss the front end of the one and one shortly before) the end of the game is UVA shooting desperation 3's and likely missing, and Duke wins by 6 to 7 points.

While Bennett playfully comments about a supposed travel with K, I highly doubt he went into that lockerroom and said "Guys we got screwed because refs always favor in Cameron"... Instead he pointed out all the areas they played poorly and stated they would get addressed in practice.

Nice trolling in your second post on the board though. Thankfully we have some good UVA posters here who have been posting regularly for a year now and added to the quality of the board.

Troublemaker
02-14-2016, 08:28 PM
but shayok stayed in front of his man

helped by a blocking foul clearly seen at 0:36 (or 0:46)


shayok's arms may not have been completely orthogonal to the ground

thus violating the vertical airspace Allen was entitled to as he went up for the shot with two hands on the ball.


but they were maybe 80-85 degrees

oh, i'd say more like 65 degrees but in any case, shayok's non-vertical right arm made contact with Allen's left arm while Allen was still holding the ball with two hands going into his shot (2:01). that's a shooting foul. SUBSEQUENTLY, Allen then cleared out with his left arm and elbowed Shayok, which as you noted, would be an offensive foul.



UVA got the lucky swag against WFU and Cal, so it was bound to turn around. those games, however, were not decided by missed calls.

I am certain that if I searched for them, I would find threads by WFU and Cal fans whining about missed calls in those two games. Why am I so confident I'd find complaints? Because whining about refs is what basketball fans do.

Henderson
02-14-2016, 08:30 PM
Much easier to call a game in slo-mo, though. The refs have to call it in real time with lots of action around them. Not going to get everything right - no matter what color glasses you are wearing.

I think this is a great point that applies to this game and most other post-game controversies. We've had a couple counterexamples this season, but overall I try to keep the principle in mind when tempted to harsh on refs.

Furniture
02-14-2016, 08:31 PM
I would wager a lot of money that K isn't losing a second of sleep about this.....
I say stop feeding it.....

Troublemaker
02-14-2016, 08:33 PM
Much easier to call a game in slo-mo, though. The refs have to call it in real time with lots of action around them. Not going to get everything right - no matter what color glasses you are wearing.

Yep. A lot of whining (not necessarily in this thread) about a bang-bang call instead of giving credit to Allen making a great shot from a difficult position.

akg4y
02-14-2016, 09:01 PM
Interesting video and take on the end of the game. Not sure who or why Tony Bennett is labeled a "sore loser". I've seen everyone referring to him, and UVA, as a class act. (Might have to deduct one from that for the maker of the video.) As to the "head snap", I thought it was an attempt by GA to get a look at the basket - and not an attempt to draw a foul.

The video was made by a UVA fan, I think the sore loser comment was TIC sarcasm, likely indirectly referring to the "Amazing" press conference from a few weeks ago. Thats just my presumption though, not 100% sure.

akg4y
02-14-2016, 09:02 PM
And all the proponents for the go for the first good shot strategy, can we all agree the shot Brogdon took was NOT a high percentage or good shot? He basically flung the ball over his shoulder facing away from the basket. That wasn't even a high percentage shot. He hit a circus shot. Shayok wanted a jumper and panicked and hit Brogdon in an awkward spot and he went all Barnum and Bailey's circus hitting a theatrical shot. Gill thought Shayok was shooting and started boxing out Plumlee. Perrantes was standing around watching Shayok and I'm assuming he thought he was going to shoot it. Tobey began pushing Ingram under the basket to try and get Shayok's rebound. Brogdon wasn't even ready for the pass and had to push off on Matt Jones under the basket to catch the pass. Bottom line is, that WAS NOT a good shot. Give him credit, he hit a tough, improbable shot.

Not exactly how you draw up that possession if you're Tony Bennett.


To be honest I thought it was a great shot, essentially a reverse layup it was just kind of a weird way to do it since he was a bit farther from the basket than he prob preferred to be. I considered it a very high percentage shot for him actually.

Nugget
02-14-2016, 09:03 PM
Yep. A lot of whining (not necessarily in this thread) about a bang-bang call instead of giving credit to Allen making a great shot from a difficult position.

This is exactly right. It was an extremely bang-bang play that would literally never be called a travel. It's not a question of the refs swallowing the whistle or "letting them play" at the end of the game - rather, the was simply such a close call that no one would make it, certainly not at live speed.

I'm also influenced in this regard by the fact that the announcers said nothing to suggest the possibility of a travel, either at live speed or during the playing of any of the 4 replays shown before the basket was confirmed.

I know the U.Va fans on the board are being generally level-headed and gracious about this, but for all the crap we have to hear about "Duke gets all the calls," this particular purported example is very weak sauce.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 09:11 PM
To be honest I thought it was a great shot, essentially a reverse layup it was just kind of a weird way to do it since he was a bit farther from the basket than he prob preferred to be. I considered it a very high percentage shot for him actually.

I strongly disagree. Hitting a player with a pass that isn't expecting it and has to push off (foul) his defender as a result of the ball handler getting into the air and panicking and then throwing up a shot over your shoulder facing away from a basket is not a high percentage shot nor play.

-jk
02-14-2016, 09:34 PM
he's right! the guy is right. there WAS a foul in addition to the travel, coach K. it was an offensive foul by grayson allen on marial shayok. also a phantom head jerk to imitate "contact" when his elbow was doing all the initiating on shayok. seen in great frame by frame style here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY6JR-qVGew

ah well. cameron home cooking won't be able to protect duke in DC. good luck.

Nice try. Defense must be played with arms vertical or there's no legal guarding position.

-jk

JNort
02-14-2016, 10:48 PM
I strongly disagree. Hitting a player with a pass that isn't expecting it and has to push off (foul) his defender as a result of the ball handler getting into the air and panicking and then throwing up a shot over your shoulder facing away from a basket is not a high percentage shot nor play.
Not the way I remember it. I agree with AK


Just went back and watched that play. My memory was correct that should never and will never be called a push off. He also didn't catch it by surprise.

CameronDuke
02-14-2016, 11:28 PM
Not the way I remember it. I agree with AK


Just went back and watched that play. My memory was correct that should never and will never be called a push off. He also didn't catch it by surprise.

Guess we are interpreting it differently and can agree to disagree. I've watched it several times now - Shayok left the ground on that play to shoot the basketball, not pass it. When blanketed by Thornton's defense, all he could do was pass it. Go back and watch Gill and Tobey. They both maneuver into offensive rebounding position when Shayok leaves the floor, hence they thought Shayok was going to shoot it. Brogdon's push off wouldn't get called there just like a travel or foul would never get called on the last play by Allen - the refs let the boys play on each sequence. Brogdon's reaction to the pass and the subsequent shot was awkward at best. Great shot, but I wouldn't call that a set play or high percentage look. It was more improvised.

gep
02-14-2016, 11:35 PM
Guess we are interpreting it differently and can agree to disagree. I've watched it several times now - Shayok left the ground on that play to shoot the basketball, not pass it. When blanketed by Thornton's defense, all he could do was pass it. Go back and watch Gill and Tobey. They both maneuver into offensive rebounding position when Shayok leaves the floor, hence they thought Shayok was going to shoot it. Brogdon's push off wouldn't get called there just like a travel or foul would get not called on the last play by Allen - the refs let the boys play on each sequence. Brogdon's reaction to the pass and the subsequent shot was awkward at best. Great shot, but I wouldn't call that a set play or high percentage look. It was more improvised.

As Coach K has said in the past, great players make great winning plays. Come to think of it... so did Grayson!!! GO DUKE!!!

OZ
02-14-2016, 11:43 PM
To be honest I thought it was a great shot, essentially a reverse layup it was just kind of a weird way to do it since he was a bit farther from the basket than he prob preferred to be. I considered it a very high percentage shot for him actually.


Prior to this game, I have not watched Virginia this year; so, I am asking... is that a shot he regularly makes? I personally thought it was an unbelievable shot and one equally as difficult as Allen's. But then, that was actually a very high percentage shot for Allen.

Troublemaker
02-15-2016, 12:19 AM
Prior to this game, I have not watched Virginia this year; so, I am asking... is that a shot he regularly makes? I personally thought it was an unbelievable shot and one equally as difficult as Allen's. But then, that was actually a very high percentage shot for Allen.

I've probably watched UVA 3 or 4 times a year so I've seen Brogdon play a decent amount over the years. I can't recall whether I've seen him make that exact shot before, but I do know that when he got the ball and shot it over his head, I expected the ball to go in. Maybe it wasn't a logical expectation to have, but because it was Brogdon, I had a guttural feeling that he would score. Not to become all cliched, but great players make great plays.

I was pretty down after that shot. After all the missed free throws and then Brogdon scoring there, it looked like we were about to fall to 0-5 in one-possession games despite giving a great effort. Thankfully, Grayson made an amazing shot through contact to get the win at the buzzer.

JNort
02-15-2016, 12:25 AM
I've probably watched UVA 3 or 4 times a year so I've seen Brogdon play a decent amount over the years. I can't recall whether I've seen him make that exact shot before, but I do know that when he got the ball and shot it over his head, I expected the ball to go in. Maybe it wasn't a logical expectation to have, but because it was Brogdon, I had a guttural feeling that he would score. Not to become all cliched, but great players make great plays.

I was pretty down after that shot. After all the missed free throws and then Brogdon scoring there, it looked like we were about to fall to 0-5 in one-possession games despite giving a great effort. Thankfully, Grayson made an amazing shot through contact to get the win at the buzzer.

I thought it would go in as well. It's not like it's a tough shot. Don't know why people are getting hung up on this. Go watch some pick up basketball at the Y. Shots similar to that are done often enough. Heck I know who shoots like that every time in the paint. It's dang annoying

gumbomoop
02-15-2016, 12:58 AM
To be honest I thought it was a great shot, essentially a reverse layup it was just kind of a weird way to do it since he was a bit farther from the basket than he prob preferred to be. I considered it a very high percentage shot for him actually.

I agree with akg4y re the shot itself. Although the play was certainly improvised and even desperate, Brogdan's shot was not difficult for him. Nor would it have been for any number of players with excellent feel for angles and spin off the backboard. Many players would botch that weird angle badly, but Brogdan (and plenty of others) would take that shot all day long and make it almost every time. A (very?) few players, fully comfortable with either hand for shots requiring delicate backboard spin, would make it almost every time, with either hand from either side under the backboard.

It wouldn't be difficult to design such a play, probably involving a pick -- rather than just the chaos at the end of the game Saturday -- to get what, as akg4y says, is essentially a reverse layup. Probably involves the tiniest bit of spin, maybe not even that so long as the angle is intuited correctly.

Steven43
02-15-2016, 01:39 AM
Ha, sorry I don't tow the party line. GA does get away with a lot when he goes to the basket. It's all good but don't be in denial about it!

What do you mean by saying Grayson gets 'away with a lot when he goes to the basket'? From what I have observed he gets fouled on many more drives to the basket than are actually called. I think you have it exactly backwards. And I also think you are posing as a Duke fan. I suggest you stop wasting our time.

subzero02
02-15-2016, 02:23 AM
Things are getting very chippy... I think our team's refusal to accept "its own demise" is really getting to opposing fan bases. Grayson Allen is certainly a lightning rod now if he wasn't before. I hope we get Jefferson back soon so we can really give something to whine about and also fear.

Newton_14
02-15-2016, 09:36 AM
Things are getting very chippy... I think our team's refusal to accept "its own demise" is really getting to opposing fan bases. Grayson Allen is certainly a lightning rod now if he wasn't before. I hope we get Jefferson back soon so we can really give something to whine about and also fear.
I really do not get all the hate on Grayson either. And it has been prevalent, even before the trip. Diamond Stone grinded a guys head into the floor and there isn't rampant hatred toward him. The "head snap" complaints are just silly and make about as much sense as the supposed "tractor offense" our women somehow play, whatever that means. lol

But you are right in the observation that after the 3 game losing streak, other fans were convinced 1995 was happening again and they were licking their chops. Especially the uncheat fans.

When our guys started winning again, it got very chippy, very fast, including on Facebook. Grayson is their favorite target too.

dyedwab
02-15-2016, 10:36 AM
1) One thing that has been characteristic of this team all year has been its resilience within games. Generally, even in losses, this team has always been able to fight back wven after the other team makes a run. But what they haven't been able to do is figure out how to close out and win, until recently. The UVA game was, to me, the culmination of what's been going on for the last month or so, where this team is figuring out what it needs to do to win games. Winning is a learned skill; Duke is getting better at it

2) Derryck Thornton has really improved. His defense has been stout, and his decision-making, while still having the typical hiccups of a freshman point guard, has improved by leaps and bounds. But make no mistake, the fact that we look like an improved defensive team and Derryck Thornton looks like an improved player are absolutely connected.

3) Brandon Ingram is such a unique player, and, wow, he is hard to contain.

4) Matt Jones was the unsung star of the game with his defensive play and offensive contributions.

5) Malcolm Brogdon is really, really good - on both ends of the floor. Very fun player to watch...as long as he's doing it to someone else's team :-)

Edouble
02-15-2016, 11:01 AM
I thought there was a travel... by Brogdon, after his push off. He shuffles his feet, takes no dribbles before throwing up a backwards prayer.

Great game. Happy that we gutted out a win. Grayson and Ingram were amazing. Way to play to the final buzzer by GA! Go Devils!

oldnavy
02-15-2016, 11:28 AM
The contact between Allen and the UVa player is called a defensive foul, what - 80% of the time if not more??

The travel everyone wants called is called what - 0.1% of the time if that often?

If anything was missed it was the foul which could be seen in real time. The travel has to be seen in slo-mo to be seen, and even then it's not 100% definite.