What the Hell ESPN? "Is Grayson Allen the Next Hated White Duke Player?"

[DavidBenAkiva]

I guess they are just getting ready for the next 30 for 30: I Hate Grayson Allen.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils

[Ichabod Drain]

"Journalism"

[Billy Dat]

To me, it signals one thing and one thing only...."We're BAAAAACK!"

Dana O'Neil obviously had the whole thing written for a while and was just waiting for an "incident".

There are pages on this topic in the post-Louisville game thread.

[oldnavy]

To me, it signals one thing and one thing only..."We're BAAAAACK!"

Dana O'Neil obviously had the whole thing written for a while and was just waiting for an "incident".

There are pages on this topic in the post-Louisville game thread.

I agree.

We cannot control anyone's attitude other than our own. So,... let them hate. It only hurts the hater, and has no effect on the hated.

[devildeac]

I think it'd be quite cool to see "I Still Hate Grayson" t-shirts being sold by the University of XYZ 20-30 years from now...

Now, as for the "@#$ you, Grayson" chants, (maybe) I could do without those.

Oh wait, that gang of imbecile fans now plays in the Big Integer Conference:rolleyes:.

[Ichabod Drain]

I agree.

We cannot control anyone's attitude other than our own. So,... let them hate. It only hurts the hater, and has no effect on the hated.

I believe for the most part this is true but enough hatred can get to you. I believe JJ has said that everything he went through in college eventually affected his attitude and personality. To quote him “I watch video now of me in college, and I just think, What are you doing, man?”

While we may relish it, and some players too, Grayson doesn't strike me as wanting to be hated.

[duke blue brewcrew]

It's funny how this article wasn't released after Justise Winslow's flying karate kick lay-up last year, but Grayson's trip last night does trigger it. It's never the hated Duke player, it's the hated WHITE Duke player. Sad commentary.

[devildeac]

Imagine the @#$%storm nationally if espn wrote that piece changing the name to some other player who happened to be Hispanic/Asian/African-American/Indian/Middle Eastern/Slavic/gay/etc. But, because it's Duke, I guess it's OK. Complete garbage.

[Indoor66]

I think it'd be quite cool to see "I Still Hate Grayson" t-shirts being sold by the University of XYZ 20-30 years from now...

Now, as for the "@#$ you, Grayson" chants, (maybe) I could do without those.

Oh wait, that gang of imbecile fans now plays in the Big Integer Conference:rolleyes:.

Here I thought you were referring to the sissy blue group over at the dump on the hump! :cool:

[Wahoo2000]

It's funny how this article wasn't released after Justise Winslow's flying karate kick lay-up last year, but Grayson's trip last night does trigger it. It's never the hated Duke player, it's the hated WHITE Duke player. Sad commentary.

Plus a million. Couldn't agree more. IS there a race component to the "hating"? Sure, for some people. But the media could be a little more responsible in not perpetuating things. Of course, the media could give two $#!ts about the "right" thing to do and will instead do whatever will max their clicks/traffic/profit margins.

Anybody seen the movie "Idiocracy"? That's where we're headed.

[cruxer]

The headline is inflammatory, but it describes a real phenomenon; therefore, it really is journalism. Not writing about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. I said this in the post-game thread, but there's a population of young, white, male sports fans who really hate elite white players, especially when they play for Duke. The racial component can't be objectively measured, but I think we all subjectively see it. This probably won't be the last time this article is written.

We should probably call it out for the pitiful spectacle it is, even when writing about it. In order to do that, we have to recognize it's happening first.

-c

[kAzE]

When the title of the article is "Is he the next hated white Duke player," there's an issue. The existence of the article itself annoys me, but when it's this blatantly putting race into the equation, I have a serious problem with it.

[killerleft]

The headline is inflammatory, but it describes a real phenomenon; therefore, it really is journalism. Not writing about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. I said this in the post-game thread, but there's a population of young, white, male sports fans who really hate elite white players, especially when they play for Duke. The racial component can't be objectively measured, but I think we all subjectively see it. This probably won't be the last time this article is written.

We should probably call it out for the pitiful spectacle it is, even when writing about it. In order to do that, we have to recognize it's happening first.

-c

Unless ESPN invented it? I've heard nothing about Grayson being hated. So, no, that's not journalism.

[BD80]

I guess they are just getting ready for the next 30 for 30: I Hate Grayson Allen.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils

They spelled his name correctly. Next play.

[kAzE]

They spelled his name correctly. Next play.

Did anyone actually read the whole thing? Here's an excerpt:


Allen officially joined the club of hate that includes Laettner, Collins, Wojciechowski, Reddick, Paulus and Schreyer.

Apparently, correct spelling of names is not required for front page articles on ESPN.

And since when were Paulus and Scheyer part of the "club of hate"? Neither of those guys fit any of the criteria here other than the plain fact that were white. I didn't even know the "club of hate" existed, thanks for fabricating that as well, ESPN. You might as well called it the "WHITE club of hate" while you're at it.

I'm truly disgusted.

[throatybeard]

I'm going to write a fluff piece on Aussie baller, Jack White, and bribe the editor to headline it, "Is SF Jack White the next white Duke player?"

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Did anyone actually read the whole thing? Here's an excerpt:



Apparently, correct spelling of names is not required for front page articles on ESPN.

And since when were Paulus and Scheyer part of the "club of hate"? Neither of those guys fit any of the criteria here other than the plain fact that were white. I didn't even know the "club of hate" existed, thanks for fabricating that as well, ESPN. You might as well called it the "WHITE club of hate" while you're at it.

I'm truly disgusted.

Dude, if you didn't know Paulus was hated, you weren't paying very closer attention. Do a youtube search for Paulus videos and you will be appalled.

[kAzE]

Dude, if you didn't know Paulus was hated, you weren't paying very closer attention. Do a youtube search for Paulus videos and you will be appalled.

But Paulus did nothing to inspire this hate. He wasn't even that good outside of a decent freshman year. I was under the impression that the "club" which Laettner and Redick occupy had something to do with the fact that they were awesome players who actively contributed to people's dislike through certain actions. I can't think of any reason that Paulus and Scheyer even belong in this category because outside of simply being a white Duke player, they did nothing to inspire this hate.

Why isn't Gerald Henderson in this conversation? He basically elbowed the crap out of a guy's face. Far more egregious than foot tap to the chest or a trip. Oh that's right, he's BLACK.

[Rich]

Imagine the @#$%storm nationally if espn wrote that piece changing the name to some other player who happened to be Hispanic/Asian/African-American/Indian/Middle Eastern/Slavic/gay/etc. But, because it's Duke, I guess it's OK. Complete garbage.

I don't think they think it's ok because it's "Duke," I think they think it's ok because it's "white." To put your point in perspective, think of any of the following:


Is Josh Greenberg the Next Hated Jewish Duke Player?
Is Jose Rodriguez the Next Hated Hispanic Duke Player?
Is Amille Jefferson the Next Hated Black Duke Player?
Is Jim Smith the Next Hated Homosexual Duke Player?

Would any of these be met with anything other than complete outrage?

[cruxer]

Umm OK folks, take a chill pill. ESPN didn't invent race. ESPN didn't invent Grayson hate. ESPN didn't invent the hated white Duke player. We know this even though we don't want to believe it. I just did a Google search for "hate Grayson Allen" and restricted time range from Jan 1, 2015 to Feb 6, 2015. I got 7 pages of hits, mostly articles or blogs. Repeat the same search for Justise Winslow, you get 4 hits. Tyus Jones, 3 pages of hits, but mostly tweets by (or referring to) Wisconsin fans.

This is a real phenomenon. Not talking about it doesn't help wish it away. I personally think the deadspin bros who engage in it should be outed and ridiculed. Much like the most obnoxious Bernie-bros and the gamergaters. I suspect there's significant overlap in these populations.

-c

[CDu]

But Paulus did nothing to inspire this hate. He wasn't even that good outside of a decent freshman year. I was under the impression that the "club" which Laettner and Redick occupy had something to do with the fact that they were awesome players who actively contributed to people's dislike through certain actions. I can't think of any reason that Paulus and Scheyer even belong in this category because outside of simply being a white Duke player, they did nothing to inspire this hate.

Why isn't Gerald Henderson in this conversation? He basically elbowed the crap out of a guy's face. Far more egregious than foot tap to the chest or a trip. Oh that's right, he's BLACK.

The entire article is about irrational hatred of white players. Paulus and Scheyer WERE hated, though much more irrationally than Laettner, Wojo, or Redick. So your point about Henderson is EXACTLY what the article is about.

My main problem with the article is the title and that they are indirectly promoting the current hate of a kid with the article. There is a way that article could be presented without Allen. It has an interest sociologically: why do so many white fans hate white players from successful programs? But publishing the article based on Allen's incident and further igniting hate of a kid is irresponsible.

[weezie]

...I personally think the deadspin bros who engage in it should be outed and ridiculed...

That sounds like a fine idea. Surely someone here has the internets/machine (to quote Howard Stern's mother)websmarts to figure this one out.

I only just got back home after last night's game but other than seeing Coach "Wack-Job Scenery Chewer" Seth spout off on CBB live after the game, it really didn't seem like the violent tragedy that the media is making it out to be. Nothing was mentioned about Allen getting kicked in the groin in the first half, albeit in a scrum for the ball. Even Pitino didn't act like one might have expected if the foul was a hanging offense. But the level of fainting outrage that we heard on sports radio throughout the drive home was waaaay over the top. Pitino seemed fairly chill actually.

Next play.

[kAzE]

Umm OK folks, take a chill pill. ESPN didn't invent race. ESPN didn't invent Grayson hate. ESPN didn't invent the hated white Duke player. We know this even though we don't want to believe it. I just did a Google search for "hate Grayson Allen" and restricted time range from Jan 1, 2015 to Feb 6, 2015. I got 7 pages of hits, mostly articles or blogs. Repeat the same search for Justise Winslow, you get 4 hits. Tyus Jones, 3 pages of hits, but mostly tweets by (or referring to) Wisconsin fans.

This is a real phenomenon. Not talking about it doesn't help wish it away. I personally think the deadspin bros who engage in it should be outed and ridiculed. Much like the most obnoxious Bernie-bros and the gamergaters. I suspect there's significant overlap in these populations.

-c

That's not the issue, it's that the "worldwide leader in sports" should have taken the high road here. I'd expect that kind of garbage from Deadspin, not ESPN.

Why can't Grayson just be Grayson and create his own legacy? Even if he does eventually get everyone to hate him, at least it could be through his own prowess, and not some stupid ESPN article pigeonholing him for some imaginary "hate" club. Everyone here watches Grayson play to some degree. Not everyone who reads ESPN does. Now they probably just think he's some punk who they should hate just because it's standard operating procedure now to hate on white Duke players.

[Atlanta Duke]

On PTI this afternoon Wilbon and Kornheiser talked about keeping in contact with several unnamed former Duke players. Those players apparently have been talking about Grayson entering the pantheon of hated white Duke players for several weeks.

The consensus is Grayson is good enough - but to be truly hated the Duke team has to be very good as well

Wishing away the racial aspects of this will not make it so

[hsheffield]

Continuing on with the Grayson hate:

Doug Gottlieb announced today that he thought that GA should have been ejected from the game last night.

He added that GA should be suspended for 'at least one game, probably two.'

[duke blue brewcrew]

Continuing on with the Grayson hate:

Doug Gottlieb announced today that he thought that GA should have been ejected from the game last night.

He added that GA should be suspended for 'at least one game, probably two.'

Gottlieb looks for any opportunity to hate on Duke. I'm pretty sure a Blue Devil peed in his cornflakes somewhere along the way.

[COYS]

My main problem with the article is the title and that they are indirectly promoting the current hate of a kid with the article. There is a way that article could be presented without Allen. It has an interest sociologically: why do so many white fans hate white players from successful programs? But publishing the article based on Allen's incident and further igniting hate of a kid is irresponsible.

+1 for this. There actually ARE some substantive issues that could be discussed, here. But, predictably, ESPN would not dare enter those waters.

There are a few athletes in other sports from other schools for whom the same article could be written, with just a few things changed. Tim Tebow comes to mind, right away.

Hopefully Grayson recognizes that the hate is a badge of pride, though. If people actually are wearing "I still hate Grayson Allen" shirts 20 years from now, it'll be because he led us to great things during his time at Duke, however long that will be.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Gottlieb looks for any opportunity to hate on Duke. I'm pretty sure a Blue Devil peed in his cornflakes somewhere along the way.

A whole team of them did on April 5th 2010.

[killerleft]

That's not the issue, it's that the "worldwide leader in sports" should have taken the high road here. I'd expect that kind of garbage from Deadspin, not ESPN.

Why can't Grayson just be Grayson and create his own legacy? Even if he does eventually get everyone to hate him, at least it could be through his own prowess, and not some stupid ESPN article pigeonholing him for some imaginary "hate" club. Everyone here watches Grayson play to some degree. Not everyone who reads ESPN does. Now they probably just think he's some punk who they should hate just because it's standard operating procedure now to hate on white Duke players.

Forget the color aspect (although it's there without a doubt). ESPN has blatantly encouraged the hate of a young guy who is no more aggressive or dirty than 300 other players in the NCAA right now. It is deplorable, and everybody there should feel ashamed. It is ugly, ugly tabloid journalism, but ESPN has become that and worse at times. And so it goes.

[duke blue brewcrew]

A whole team of them did on April 5th 2010.

OK, I give up. What's Gottleib's tie to Butler? Btw...while Googling, I discovered the reason he "left" Notre Dame after his Freshman year was because he stole his roommates credit cards and ran up $900 in charges before getting caught. I'm repeating this information with the assumption that his Wikipedia page isn't grossly inaccurate.

[gurufrisbee]

I'm always confused by the continued belief that Duke is somehow an exceptionally white team. Were they whiter than Gonzaga? Were they whiter than Wisconsin? Were they whiter than Notre Dame? And most of all - why would it matter even if they were?

[DukeFanSince1990]

OK, I give up. What's Gottleib's tie to Butler? Btw...while Googling, I discovered the reason he "left" Notre Dame after his Freshman year was because he stole his roommates credit cards and ran up $900 in charges before getting caught. I'm repeating this information with the assumption that his Wikipedia page isn't grossly inaccurate.

Nothing to do with Butler. The 09-10 team was the one that he called "alarmingly unathletic". So when they won it all they made him look like an idiot.....not like he needs any help though.

[rthomas]

Really? Who cares?

[Atlanta Duke]

I'm always confused by the continued belief that Duke is somehow an exceptionally white team. Were they whiter than Gonzaga? Were they whiter than Wisconsin? Were they whiter than Notre Dame? And most of all - why would it matter even if they were?

They were whiter than UNLV and the Fab Five when they beat both teams in the national championship game. That is when I recall the image took hold - no reason for someone looking for page clicks and an easy column to let go of a perception developed a quarter century ago.

[throatybeard]

Wasn't Madeleine Stowe married to a dude named Grayson Allen on that TV show?

[Fish80]

Last game, an NC State player attempted to trip Grayson. Grayson stepped on his foot and twisted his ankle. How come that play and opposing player isn't denigrated, chastised and castrated?

I know who the other guy is, I just ain't sayin. If you watched, you know too.

[-bdbd]

FWIW, last night after the game I found two stories in major "national" news outlets about the Duke-Louisville game. Yes, both were headlines in their respectice Sports Section. And, nope, neither story was about the actual game. Both were about Grayson intentionally tripping the L'ville player.

One was in the USA Todays Sports section, and the other was from the Washington Post. The Post one wrapped it up by asking the question, "What should be his punishment?" Then suggested that a "starting point" would be the player for Oregon who, earlier this season, tripped someone and was suspended for FIVE GAMES. They then mentioned, as an afterthought, that the person he tripped was THE REF!.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/02/08/dukes-grayson-allen-deliberately-trips-louisville-player/
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/02/08/video-duke-grayson-allen-trips-louisville
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25478059/watch-dukes-grayson-allen-trips-louisville-player-gets-flagrant-foul

BTW, neither story mentioned what led to the tripping. Just that "he landed on along the baseline" (as if he tripped while walking down the floor by himself), then reached out and tripped a poor L'ville player who had just picked up a loose ball and happened to be dribbling by. Neither mentioned anything about his get knocked down on a drive to the basket, and was probably (though not justifiably) angry over not getting any call once again. :rolleyes:

Update: Google "Grayson Allen" and "tripping" and you'll get DOZENS of articles up on the incident, some fairly lurid/mean-spirited.

[-bdbd]

I'm always confused by the continued belief that Duke is somehow an exceptionally white team. Were they whiter than Gonzaga? Were they whiter than Wisconsin? Were they whiter than Notre Dame? And most of all - why would it matter even if they were?

Because they committed the cardinal sin -- THEY WIN.

[OZ]

I honestly don't think race has anything to do with this; and Duke does not have a corner on the market in "hating." As a kid, I grew up feeling the same way about Carolina, the Yankees and Richard Petty (still hate Carolina and the Yankees). Bottom line, they seemed to win all the time.
At least Duke and GA are in good company...Dallas, Yankees, Jeff Gordon, UNLV, Brady, etc. It is just human nature to feel that the one who wins all the time must be doing so because of some advantage - "they get all the calls." It can't be because we just aren't worth a crap.
I can remember a time when NO ONE was "hating" on us... we were losing in everything. After having experienced both at Duke, I think I had rather be a "hated" winner than a beloved loser.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

They were whiter than UNLV and the Fab Five when they beat both teams in the national championship game. That is when I recall the image took hold - no reason for someone looking for page clicks and an easy column to let go of a perception developed a quarter century ago.

Duke has never beaten UNLV in a national championship game. In 1990, Duke lost (badly) to UNLV in the national championship game. In 1991, Duke beat UNLV in the national championship semi-final game.

[hsheffield]

Last game, an NC State player attempted to trip Grayson. Grayson stepped on his foot and twisted his ankle. How come that play and opposing player isn't denigrated, chastised and castrated?

I know who the other guy is, I just ain't sayin. If you watched, you know too.

I saw it and considered bringing it up but decided I just didn't want to be that catty...:rolleyes:

[Atlanta Duke]

Duke has never beaten UNLV in a national championship game. In 1990, Duke lost (badly) to UNLV in the national championship game. In 1991, Duke beat UNLV in the national championship semi-final game.

My bad - Duke beat Vegas in the second game of the national semifinals doubleheader - I watched it and did not believe what I was seeing after the disaster the previous year

My point is the images (legitimate or otherwise) of Duke compared to those of UNLV and the Fab Five is where the storyline took off

This from Grant Hill

Grant Hill, who won two national titles during his four years at Duke University, recently told Bleacher Report why he thinks the Blue Devils are the recipients of so much haterade.

"Cause we had a lot of really good white players," Hill told Reese Waters. "The funny thing is, I played with Bobby Hurley and Christian Laettner. They were despised when we were on the road.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/grant-hill-on-why-duke-is-so-hated-we-had-a-lot-of-really-good-white-players-032014

[weezie]

It's late and I'm lazy. And last night I was enjoying post-game pizza at Pizza Toro instead of post-game press conferences:

What did Pitino say about the flagrant after the game?

[Fish80]

I saw it and considered bringing it up but decided I just didn't want to be that catty...:rolleyes:

Yeah, I hear you. I guess I just really need a shave and a hair cut. Where can I get that?

Meow.

[Owen Meany]

WFMY, out of Greensboro, just showed the Allen trip. This is the night after the game, and they showed the trip alone, not as part of the story of the game. This was in a sports recap to end the news, and followed just after recapping BC/UNC and Williams vertigo spell. Paraphrasing "watch this... Grayson Allen drives to the goal and falls to the floor. Then he looks back, lifts his leg, and trips the Louisville player. He received a technical foul, but was not ejected."

I've never seen a play receive a recap like this the night after a game. I've also don't recall a newscaster going into details such as "he looks back" or adding "he was not ejected from the game."

[oldnavy]

Wow! The trip was not that big of a deal. In fact, a reasonable argument could be made that it was unintentional. I don't necessarily believe that, but at worst it was a reflex reaction in a bang bang play.

The refs didn't even call a foul on Allen until after they reviewed the play in slow motion for heavens sake.

Much ado about nothing IMO.

"Orchestrated outrage"...

[jacone21]

"Orchestrated outrage"...

That's pretty much standard OP for today's media... including at The Worldwide Leader in Manziel Coverage.

[gwlaw99]

What do you think the odds are he goes pro this year?

[flyingdutchdevil]

What do you think the odds are he goes pro this year?

I'm probably in the minority, but I think very high, especially if he has a good-to-great tournament. I think he's gone because a) his ppg will likely fall next year given our insane incoming talent, b) he's already considered a mid-first round pick, and c) this year is a weak draft but next year's draft is insanely stacked.

Declaring for the draft has nothing to do with staying power in the NBA. The goal is to get drafted first and foremost. and I agree with many that Grayson is a tweener between the 1 and the 2. But I think scouts love his drive, his ability to get to the hoop and shoot 3s (he's also a great FT shooter, which is more important a measurement to NBA 3pt shooting than actual college 3pt shooting), and his better than advertised assist rate.

[CDu]

I'm probably in the minority, but I think very high, especially if he has a good-to-great tournament. I think he's gone because a) his ppg will likely fall next year given our insane incoming talent, b) he's already considered a mid-first round pick, and c) this year is a weak draft but next year's draft is insanely stacked.

Declaring for the draft has nothing to do with staying power in the NBA. The goal is to get drafted first and foremost. and I agree with many that Grayson is a tweener between the 1 and the 2. But I think scouts love his drive, his ability to get to the hoop and shoot 3s (he's also a great FT shooter, which is more important a measurement to NBA 3pt shooting than actual college 3pt shooting), and his better than advertised assist rate.

I don't think Allen is much of a tweener, other than that he isn't especially big for a SG. His game is all SG. He passes well for a SG, but he's not at all a PG at the NBA level.

The only question with regard to his draft stock will be his height. If he really is 6'5", he'll be just fine at the 2 and will be drafted solidly in the middle of the first round, maybe higher. If he's 6'3", he's going to have a harder time moving up the draft board. Measurements are going to decide where he goes in the draft, but he's going to be a SG.

And I do agree that there is a very reasonable chance he goes pro this year. There isn't much he can realistically do to raise his draft stock by staying. So if his goal is to get a good draft spot, this year is probably the time for him to go.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't think Allen is much of a tweener, other than that he isn't especially big for a SG. His game is all SG. He passes well for a SG, but he's not at all a PG at the NBA level.

The only question with regard to his draft stock will be his height. If he really is 6'5", he'll be just fine at the 2 and will be drafted solidly in the middle of the first round, maybe higher. If he's 6'3", he's going to have a harder time moving up the draft board. Measurements are going to decide where he goes in the draft, but he's going to be a SG.

My tweener comment was in relation to his height. He'd be a tiny SG if he's really 6'3" (and if Kennard is 6'5", Grayson is definitely 6'3"). But I think Kennard is much taller than he's listed at and Grayson is closer to 6'4". If so, he's still on the small side, but so are many other SGs in the NBA.

[Billy Dat]

The WWL wants Duke on that wall, NEEDS Duke on that wall:

ESPN Insider ‏@ESPNInsider 48m48 minutes ago
Looking ahead to March Madness, the latest @JayBilas Index has Oklahoma at No. 1, Duke outside top 20

[kAzE]

I don't think Allen is much of a tweener, other than that he isn't especially big for a SG. His game is all SG. He passes well for a SG, but he's not at all a PG at the NBA level.

The only question with regard to his draft stock will be his height. If he really is 6'5", he'll be just fine at the 2 and will be drafted solidly in the middle of the first round, maybe higher. If he's 6'3", he's going to have a harder time moving up the draft board. Measurements are going to decide where he goes in the draft, but he's going to be a SG.

And I do agree that there is a very reasonable chance he goes pro this year. There isn't much he can realistically do to raise his draft stock by staying. So if his goal is to get a good draft spot, this year is probably the time for him to go.

Conventional wisdom would say that this year is the year to go pro, but if we don't win it all this year (we have an outside shot, but realistically, we're probably not favored to make it to the final four this year), does anyone really think Grayson is going to pass up a golden opportunity to come back as a captain and lead one of the most talented Duke teams ever? If we win the national championship this year, he should go pro. Nothing left to accomplish at this level. If we don't, a guy as competitive as Grayson will have a hard time saying no to playing with Harry Giles and Jayson Tatum and competing for another national championship. And if he has another year like he's having now, coupled with a deep postseason run, retiring #3 starts becoming a real conversation.

Not saying he SHOULD stay, because financially, it makes all the sense in the world to take the money after this year. Just trying to get into the mind of Grayson.

[sagegrouse]

That's pretty much standard OP for today's media... including at The Worldwide Leader in Manziel Coverage.

Let me just say that Johnny Manziel has fully earned his negative coverage.

[gwlaw99]

My tweener comment was in relation to his height. He'd be a tiny SG if he's really 6'3" (and if Kennard is 6'5", Grayson is definitely 6'3"). But I think Kennard is much taller than he's listed at and Grayson is closer to 6'4". If so, he's still on the small side, but so are many other SGs in the NBA.

Was measured 6'4.5 in shoes (how the nba measures) at Lebron and Durrant camps in 2013.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Was measured 6'4.5 in shoes (how the nba measures) at Lebron and Durrant camps in 2013.

Not to mention he plays bigger than he his due to his strength, speed, tenacity, and leaping ability. There are multiple guards shorter than 6'5" who have had plenty of success in the NBA. Grayson's will to win, physical talent, and ability to score will take him places in the pros.

[ElSid]

Trip wasn't an egregious foul. Didn't put the other player at risk. No worse than other intentional fouls. Rightfully called flagrant, tho. Feels similar to a "clear path" foul in NBA.

All this fake outrage, saying he should be ejected and / or suspended seems to be coming from deep seated resentment. Or perception that we play with different rules. Which is objectively false. Gottlieb is disqualified for life, IMO.

Is there precedent for a player being suspended over a similar deliberate trip of another player? Maybe I'm missing something.

Looked like soccer equivalent of a yellow card. Move on. Thought the refs handled it well.

In other fake outrage, are we still pretending to be surprised and outraged every time this topic surfaces? Seems the argument on DBR is over semantics. The headline is inflammatory! Well, it's also a matter of fact. It's nearly boring / old to me now, but it no doubt exists. And it's absolutely not personal. Duke is "The Man" and even though Hurley and Laettner were as blue collar as it gets, they'll represent the silver spoon. So it goes. Badge of honor, I think. I also believe a lot of the haters see it for the caricature that it is, and are just playing along.

My own brother texted me "Grayson's gonna be really hated next year" after the final game. Doesn't mean my brother hates Grayson. It's a phenomenon. And can be a victimless one if Grayson and others take it with a big grain of salt. Plus, JJ turned out alright. Love that new sleeve tat!

[BluDvlsN1]

Short rant.

ESPN is just “predictable”!

Placement of articles when we win , and when we loose.
Bias in subsequent content of said articles.

For me, their opinion has as much value as a Lunardi bracket projection.

I think the world of that young man, he is the epitome of a Dukie.

F9 ESPN and take your partners in crime with you.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

As others have alluded to, current society(specifically in this case cbb fans) doesn't hate Duke, or white players, or dirty players.

What they truly hate is winning, success, and achievement.

Why are the Patriots hated? Not because of alleged "cheating", but because they win all the dang time.

So when the average 30 year old dude/dudette still living in their parents basement, "in-between" jobs, trying to avoid paying student loans for an expensive education they fail to use, sees others do well, have success, and achieve greatness, they get jealous.

These "do-nothing" types want everyone else to underachieve and be miserable because they don't want to put the effort into their own lives to elevate their lot.

Nope, it's much easier to tear someone else down than to build yourself up.

So in order to tear down, they look for "reasons" and "excuses" as to why others succeed where they themselves have failed.

Duke wins because they're "white elites" and they're "dirty" players.

New England and Tom Brady win because they're "cheaters" and they're "dirty" too.

This modern phenomenon permeates much deeper into all aspects of society - economically, politically, and culturally.

So what we see happening to Duke Basketball the last 20 years isn't exclusive to just them... It's a byproduct of a much larger issue.

[JetpackJesus]

I think there's something to the white Duke player hate. I don't know if it is truly driven by race or not, but it does look that way. I posted this back in December when the white player hate came up in a Grayson thread:


Take a look at this analysis of a 2013 top-20 most hated Duke players list (http://www.vdare.com/posts/top-20-most-hated-duke-basketball-players-by-race-whites-most-hated-by-far). It's annotated by race and the summarized findings are as follows:


So the Most Hated Top 20 adds up to 4 blacks, 2 mulattos, and 14 whites. The Top Ten most hated is 9.5 / 10 white, with the seven most hated players being white.

Seeing lists like this does make you wonder.

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention Grantland's Duke bracket from the most hated NCAA basketball players of the last 30 years thing they did a year or two ago:

5740

There is a basis for this "hate them because they're white" notion. Does it have merit? I have no idea since I don't hate any Duke players so I can't think like those people. But I can see where it comes from.

What appalled me about the article in question is that it actively invites people to hate a player based on his race because of a rather insignificant flagrant foul. The other thing that bugs me about it is the inaccurate accounting of the play that led up to the trip. To say the contact never came while Allen was in the air is false. It was minor and unintentional, but the L'ville player trying to avoid Allen does hit his legs with his torso (or Allen's legs hit his torso). Either way, that contact did impact the shot attempt, ugly as it was, and likely affected how Allen landed on the way down. That's what led to his reaction. That doesn't justify his actions, but I think it does explain them.

On a final note, I think the people calling for suspensions or more severe penalties are crazy. I have seen far worse receive less punishment (see Chris Paul's collegiate career).

[lotusland]

There was no trip only an attempted trip. As master Laettner might say - there is no "try". Either trip or do not trip. Grayson has much to learn. May the force be with him.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

On a final note, I think the people calling for suspensions or more severe penalties are crazy. I have seen far worse receive less punishment (see Chris Paul's collegiate career).

Who the heck is saying that?

Also, you insinuate that Allen hate (if it exists) is both the result of race and the result of the flagrant. Well, he has been white his whole life, and fouled the guy on Monday. When did this hate start? Should be easy to tell which is the cause.

I am totally fine with rivals hating a dude because of the way he plays - whether I agree with the fan or not. What I think happens with Duke players is - they get tons more exposure than other teams and players, win more games than most other teams and players, and garner a lot of ill-will. Then, above and beyond that, some guys are like "ha ha, look, and he's white!" Which makes it funnier to them because of Duke"s history with good/cocky/dirty/smarmy white guys.

That's it. No nefarious plot, just that. ESPN is guilty of lazy journalism and perpetuating a socially-backwards stereotype that seems to not even exist (upthread someone mentioned 8 Google hits for Hate Grayson Allen? - that's statistically insignificant).

Let's all please move on - for everyone's sake. We have a team with a lot to fight for that has the chance to play some very compelling basketball in the next month and a half.

Let's Go Duke!

[oldnavy]

I think the Duke Hate can be explained by over exposure. I am a life-long Duke lover and I get tired of hearing about Duke on ESPN broadcasts.

Watch any game Dickie V broadcasts. I will promise you that he will bring up Duke and how wonderful Duke is at some point in his ramblings...

It is enough to make you a little bit sick no matter how you feel about Duke...

[Atlanta Duke]

Also, you insinuate that Allen hate (if it exists) is both the result of race and the result of the flagrant. Well, he has been white his whole life, and fouled the guy on Monday. When did this hate start? Should be easy to tell which is the cause.

How about April 7, 2015?

Grayson Allen is the Duke villain we've all been waiting for

Allen is the Duke villain we’ve all been waiting for.

While Okafor and Winslow were almost too likable this year, Allen is the perfect blend of Dukeness that Christian Laettner wrote the book on back 25 years ago. He’s the type of guy college basketball fans love to hate.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/grayson-allen-duke-march-madness-hate-christian-laettner#

[English]

Who the heck is saying that?
Well, I think the poster might be referring to our pal Gottleib, who explicitly called for AT LEAST a 1-2 game suspension. Others in the media have made comparisons to a suspension for Grayson with a "starting point" at 5 GAMES similar to the U of Oregon kid who intentionally tripped a referee. It's floating around out there, and completely asinine.


That's it. No nefarious plot, just that. ESPN is guilty of lazy journalism and perpetuating a socially-backwards stereotype that seems to not even exist (upthread someone mentioned 8 Google hits for Hate Grayson Allen? - that's statistically insignificant).
I'm not sure to what post you're referring with the "8 Google hits," but the poster who commented on the Google search earlier in the thread mentioned that he returned 7 PAGES of hits for "Grayson Allen hate." Justise and Tyus got 4 and 3, respectively (according to said same poster). Now, the interwebs are a vast and dark place, so 7 pages may be statistically insignificant still, but don't trivialize it as though it's like finding a four-leafed clover.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, I think the poster might be referring to our pal Gottleib, who explicitly called for AT LEAST a 1-2 game suspension. Others in the media have made comparisons to a suspension for Grayson with a "starting point" at 5 GAMES similar to the U of Oregon kid who intentionally tripped a referee. It's floating around out there, and completely asinine.


I'm not sure to what post you're referring with the "8 Google hits," but the poster who commented on the Google search earlier in the thread mentioned that he returned 7 PAGES of hits for "Grayson Allen hate." Now, the interwebs are a vast and dark place, so 7 pages may be statistically insignificant still, but don't trivialize it as though it's like finding a four-leafed clover.

Okay, that was lazy of me. I misread it.

Regardless, I can't tell how much of it is the press saying "Is Grayson Allen another hated white player?" and how much is "I hate that white player Grayson Allen." Two different scenarios that suggest two different things, IMHO.

Anyways, I'm bowing out of this conversation, because I don't see that discussing either of these things are productive or supportive of our guys on the floor. Have fun parsing the media and chasing after The Great Pumpkin. I'll be rooting for our boys.

[lotusland]

Grayson has is ultra competitive with a streak of nasty. So far this year he's cursed a frosh out of frustration, attempted to trip an opponent and been a total bad I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. on the court. He's my new favorite player.

[wavedukefan70s]

When one of our guys steals a Credit card i will take gottliebs opinion seriously.
What happened is minor .if it happened anywhere else there would be no discussion.
Its a damn shame a player gets drug through the media for something like this.

[billy]

FWIW, Dana O'Neil was on Durham's 96.5 the Buzz Mike and Mike show this morning (also hosted by Lauren Brownlow). As far as I could tell, the sole purpose for her being on the show was to discuss the article. The first question asked was whether she, as writer, had anything to do with the title of the article. She acknowledged that, as is typical for large news sources/magazines/newspapers/etc., she did not write the title. When asked if she had misgivings about the title of the article, she indicated that she did indeed. She went on to defend the piece as intending to look at the phenomenon behind why the most hated players do indeed tend to be white, rather than focusing on Grayson in particular. She said she had written it by early December but, by that time, Duke was already losing and it wasn't as big of a story so they held it. The original lead in to the story had to do with Wojo being approached while getting coffee somewhere and having someone come up and tell him how much they disliked him. After the vicious mauling Grayson imparted on that poor young Louisville player however, the perfect opportunity arose to run the story.

They did discuss the headline itself as misleading and unfortunate. She described it herself as click bait and they discussed the phenomenon of click bait in general.

She discussed the phenomenon of college athlete hating as good clean fun, even saying JJ Reddick was OK with it (despite having written the opposite with regard to his sister being the target of opponents fans).

She did say after speaking with Grayson she thinks he's such a nice person that the hatred was hard to understand.

I wonder whether she or any of the network types would feel any guilt or responsibility were he attacked buy a fan of another team for no other reason than an ill-placed hate of him?

[Olympic Fan]

Who the heck is saying that?


Well, for one ... ESPN's Andy Katz.

Just watched his show "Katz's Corner" on ESPNU and he did a segment on "inconsistencies" (his word) for punishment for recent tripping incidents.

Grayson Allen got a flagrant one, no ejection and no suspension for tripping.

A Memphis player recently got a one game suspension for a tripping incident.

An Oregon State player recently got FOUR games for a tripping incident.

Katz was all outraged that the ACC office told him that the refs handled the incident correctly and there would be no further action against Allen. He couldn't understand that.

Of course, he only mentioned later that the Memphis player penalized for tripping was sitting on the bench (he actually grabbed the foot of an opponent) and tripped a player who was in play ... and the Oregon State player tripped an official while the game was in play! Same thing as what Grayson did, right? Katz thought so.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14511703/shaq-goodwin-memphis-tigers-suspended-1-game-tripping-incident

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14593534/jarmal-reid-oregon-state-beavers-ejected-tripping-referee

[jacone21]

What's the over/under on how many minutes of Saturday's UVA game broadcast will be devoted to the tripping incident?

What's the over/under on replays shown?

I'm thinking 7 minutes, and 11 replays.


Is the Louisville player out of the hospital yet?

[weezie]

No, no, three minutes and two replays.

And for jeebus sake, please, please no Roger or Jamie....

[devildeac]

FWIW, Dana O'Neil was on Durham's 96.5 the Buzz Mike and Mike show this morning (also hosted by Lauren Brownlow). As far as I could tell, the sole purpose for her being on the show was to discuss the article. The first question asked was whether she, as writer, had anything to do with the title of the article. She acknowledged that, as is typical for large news sources/magazines/newspapers/etc., she did not write the title. When asked if she had misgivings about the title of the article, she indicated that she did indeed. She went on to defend the piece as intending to look at the phenomenon behind why the most hated players do indeed tend to be white, rather than focusing on Grayson in particular. She said she had written it by early December but, by that time, Duke was already losing and it wasn't as big of a story so they held it. The original lead in to the story had to do with Wojo being approached while getting coffee somewhere and having someone come up and tell him how much they disliked him. After the vicious mauling Grayson imparted on that poor young Louisville player however, the perfect opportunity arose to run the story.

They did discuss the headline itself as misleading and unfortunate. She described it herself as click bait and they discussed the phenomenon of click bait in general.

She discussed the phenomenon of college athlete hating as good clean fun, even saying JJ Reddick was OK with it (despite having written the opposite with regard to his sister being the target of opponents fans).

She did say after speaking with Grayson she thinks he's such a nice person that the hatred was hard to understand.

I wonder whether she or any of the network types would feel any guilt or responsibility were he attacked buy a fan of another team for no other reason than an ill-placed hate of him?

Glad you were able to listen to that and thanks for summarizing it here.

Now, your thoughts/speculations about Amile's injury/rehab/return (from a bone and joint perspective, of course;))...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, for one ... ESPN's Andy Katz.

Just watched his show "Katz's Corner" on ESPNU and he did a segment on "inconsistencies" (his word) for punishment for recent tripping incidents.

Grayson Allen got a flagrant one, no ejection and no suspension for tripping.

A Memphis player recently got a one game suspension for a tripping incident.

An Oregon State player recently got FOUR games for a tripping incident.

Katz was all outraged that the ACC office told him that the refs handled the incident correctly and there would be no further action against Allen. He couldn't understand that.

Of course, he only mentioned later that the Memphis player penalized for tripping was sitting on the bench (he actually grabbed the foot of an opponent) and tripped a player who was in play ... and the Oregon State player tripped an official while the game was in play! Same thing as what Grayson did, right? Katz thought so.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14511703/shaq-goodwin-memphis-tigers-suspended-1-game-tripping-incident

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14593534/jarmal-reid-oregon-state-beavers-ejected-tripping-referee

Wow. I really hoped this was hyperbole, but what a dumb discussion.

Did he mean to trip him? 90% yes. Did they catch him for it and penalize him appropriately? Yes. Is it over and should be dropped? God yes.

[TruBlu]

Another reason for Grayson to be hated:

He was named (along with 4 others, including unc's Marcus Paige) to the Academic All-District team, and is now eligible for the Academic All-America honors.*

Congrats to Grayson, Marcus, and the others.

* Couldn't get the linkie thingie to work for me.

[billy]

Glad you were able to listen to that and thanks for summarizing it here.

Now, your thoughts/speculations about Amile's injury/rehab/return (from a bone and joint perspective, of course;))...

Man, I wish I knew. No data to go upon... Speculatively, I'd assumed he'd be back at mid-conference; maybe for UNC game 1?

[oldnavy]

What's the over/under on how many minutes of Saturday's UVA game broadcast will be devoted to the tripping incident?

What's the over/under on replays shown?

I'm thinking 7 minutes, and 11 replays.


Is the Louisville player out of the hospital yet?

Isn't it telling that ESPN has already devoted more airtime and discussion over Allen's tripping incident than they have UNC's 18 years of cheating??

[Doria]

She acknowledged that, as is typical for large news sources/magazines/newspapers/etc., she did not write the title. When asked if she had misgivings about the title of the article, she indicated that she did indeed. She went on to defend the piece as intending to look at the phenomenon behind why the most hated players do indeed tend to be white, rather than focusing on Grayson in particular.

She did say after speaking with Grayson she thinks he's such a nice person that the hatred was hard to understand.

I wonder whether she or any of the network types would feel any guilt or responsibility were he attacked buy a fan of another team for no other reason than an ill-placed hate of him?

Again, I think if one reads the article minus the headline, it isn't a bad article. One may disagree with the conclusions, but it's not some irresponsible sports culture piece. And she sounds like a reasonable person, so she probably would feel guilty, but I think it's ridiculous to say she would be. Negative articles, far more inflammatory than this, are written all the time about many people. That, in no way, excuses the actions of an individual looking to shift the blame for their own decisions, any more than "video games/movies/music made me do it" is a remotely credible defense.


He was named (along with 4 others, including unc's Marcus Paige) to the Academic All-District team, and is now eligible for the Academic All-America honors.*

Congrats to Grayson, Marcus, and the others.

Awesome! Yet another thing to be proud of him for. Also, cheers to Paige and the rest.


Isn't it telling that ESPN has already devoted more airtime and discussion over Allen's tripping incident than they have UNC's 18 years of cheating??

It wouldn't be hard... I also in line with the challenge up thread bet that the incident gets at least ten-fifteen minutes' discussion during the UVA game, sigh.

[English]

I also in line with the challenge up thread bet that the incident gets at least ten-fifteen minutes' discussion during the UVA game, sigh.

Whoa, do you know how long 10-15 minutes is?!? If the commentators talk for 10 minutes about "The Trip (TM)," my head might explode. It could happen, but that might be a record for a tangential conversation even for Dickie V. My guess is they may mention it 10-15x, but only discuss for 2-5min of airtime, all told. Of course, I have no more information than anyone else, so, I guess we'll see.

[Doria]

Whoa, do you know how long 10-15 minutes is?!? If the commentators talk for 10 minutes about "The Trip (TM)," my head might explode. It could happen, but that might be a record for a tangential conversation even for Dickie V. My guess is they may mention it 10-15x, but only discuss for 2-5min of airtime, all told. Of course, I have no more information than anyone else, so, I guess we'll see.

Well, I certainly don't want your (or my!) head to explode, but I was thinking maybe they talk about at the start of the game until something more exciting happens. I was also thinking that would be the sum total of all the air time it gets, not just in one chunk. It probably depends on the commentators, also. But yeah, that may be a bit on the high end, though I would include any replays (though I don't think, or certainly hope, they will) they rebroadcast of TripGate.

I am, however, relatively certain that ten minutes is nowhere close to the Dickie V record for a tangential discussion. But perhaps you're correct that I'm measuring his airtime in dog years, with a multiplicative effect for how long it seems to last.

[Pghdukie]

Dickinson V and Walton together on the telecast may get you 10-15 minutes airtime!

[Pghdukie]

Dickie V. Dam spell correction !

[Chillduck]

Did anyone just see Maryland's Diamond Stone intentionally slam a Wisconsin player's head into the ground? Let's see if ESPN gives it the same coverage as Grayson's less severe trip!

[luburch]

Did anyone just see Maryland's Diamond Stone intentionally slam a Wisconsin player's head into the ground? Let's see if ESPN gives it the same coverage as Grayson's less severe trip!

Gottlieb already tweeted out a video of Allen and called the two incidents equal.

[kmspeaks]

Did anyone just see Maryland's Diamond Stone intentionally slam a Wisconsin player's head into the ground? Let's see if ESPN gives it the same coverage as Grayson's less severe trip!

The explanation they just gave coming back from the half is bad too. Apparently he wasn't ejected because he just pushed his head into the ground with an open hand, but if he had closed his fist that makes it a punch and he'd be ejected. So you can slam a guy's head into the ground as long as your hand is open when you do it?

[DukeFanSince1990]

The explanation they just gave coming back from the half is bad too. Apparently he wasn't ejected because he just pushed his head into the ground with an open hand, but if he had closed his fist that makes it a punch and he'd be ejected. So you can slam a guy's head into the ground as long as your hand is open when you do it?

What if you slam it twice? Just want to know that appropriate number of head slams allowed.

[FerryFor50]

Will Dana O'Neill write an article asking if Diamond Stone is Maryland's next hated [insert race here] player?

[BD80]

Will Dana O'Neill write an article asking if Diamond Stone is Maryland's next hated [insert race here] player?

He's certainly the most hated mineral ...