MBB: Duke 72, Louisville 65 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[COYS]

YESSSSSS!

Great defensive effort in the first half. Lost our focus in the second but overcame that to close it out. What a win!

[Bob Green]

That was a quality win. Nerve wracking, but fun. The team showed a lot of grit at crunch time.

[subzero02]

Big win... 3 conference wins in a row... I am quite pleased....

[Troublemaker]

Exactly how I'd hoped it'd play out. Louisville has great rim protectors (and can obviously even block shots on threes), so we couldn't light them up like most teams... we needed to play 40 minutes of solid defense, which is basically what we got.

Matt was the primary defender on Damion Lee, holding him to 3-15 shooting, and Lee was clearly frustrated towards the end by having the straps put on him.

Brandon was huge. We just went to that 4/5 ball screen over and over again to close them out down the stretch. It's a difficult play for two big men to guard, and Brandon drew fouls or found open shooters.

[NSDukeFan]

Huuuuuuuge win. Great job guys. I like having Louisville in the conference in that they put as much pressure on you as anyone. No pressure team should be able to surprise Duke in the NCAAs.

[devildeac]

WTH? No court storming? :rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

Exactly how I'd hoped it'd play out. Louisville has great rim protectors (and can obviously even block shots on threes), so we needed to play 40 minutes of good defense, which is basically what we got.

Matt was the primary defender on Damion Lee, holding him to 3-15 shooting, and Lee was clearly frustrated towards the end by having the straps put on him.

Brandon was huge. We just went to that 4/5 ball screen over and over again to close them out down the stretch. It's a difficult play for two big men to guard.

Brandon grabbed some huge boards down the stretch.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Toughness check: passed

[dukelifer]

Excellent win. Duke needed to gut it out. That may have been better than an easy win. Need to beat UVa as the games after that will not be easy. But this game showed that the team is definitely improving. They definitely need to rest.

[FerryFor50]

Just an awesome win.

L'ville played hard, despite having nothing to play for this season outside of pride. Duke played some solid defense, especially Jones on Lee. Pretty much shut him down and forced him into bad 3 point shots.

Allen started out strong but I think L'ville's (ahem) physicality got into his head and he started making some boneheaded plays in the middle of the 2nd half to help L'ville cut into the 15 pt lead, along with the L'ville matchup zone confusing Duke's offense a bit.

Ingram played awesome and really helped on the boards. Jeter also got some positive minutes.

DT was great with his on the ball defense again, but is still making some questionable decisions at PG. At least he hit that huge runner with the shot clock running down.

MP3 was also solid.

A gutty win overall. They hit FTs down the stretch, got stops and hit some shots when they needed to. Hopefully it carries over to the UVA game.

[Doria]

Great tough win for our team! Brandon was huge down the stretch. And I look at that Derryck basket on an essentially broken drive as he almost lost it; at the beginning of the year, he'd have typically thrown up a wild shot, but now, he stuck with it to make a tough bank.

Important win, also, since we'll be playing Louisville again in three games. Definitely better to be going to the Yum knowing we can win.

Just a great team win.

[Troublemaker]

Brandon grabbed some huge boards down the stretch.

Great call. That was a huge part of his big game for us.

[Doria]

Great call. That was a huge part of his big game for us.

Totally. I haven't seen the box score, but Louisville is a good rebounding team, and we had a good team showing tonight. Plumlee was very solid for us, as well.

[NashvilleDevil]

That was enjoyable. Zero complaints from me. As Lou said in Major League II about winning three in a row, "that's called a winning streak. It has happened before."

[Furniture]

I said this in chat but have to say it again.

At one point in the second half after DT made a great defensive play Grayson ran up to him and gave him a real bear hug. So good to see that....

[FerryFor50]

Totally. I haven't seen the box score, but Louisville is a good rebounding team, and we had a good team showing tonight. Plumlee was very solid for us, as well.

Yahoo says boards were 32-28 in favor of L'ville.

10-6 offensive boards for L'ville.

Duke is 11th in the conference in total rebounds given up. L'ville is only 8th.

[MCFinARL]

Brandon grabbed some huge boards down the stretch.

Agree--those rebounds were really tough and made a huge difference. That and Derryck's made shot after almost losing the ball were key.

Loved the way they did not get rattled even when some things went wrong.


Excellent win. Duke needed to gut it out. That may have been better than an easy win. Need to beat UVa as the games after that will not be easy. But this game showed that the team is definitely improving. They definitely need to rest.

Sounds like you are ready for the Optimist thread--there are going to be some tough games AFTER Virginia? Hope you are right. :D

[CDu]

Monster, resume-building win! It wasn't always pretty, but the end result was beautiful. This was in my opinion the best game we have played all year. Defense was solid all night, offense was excellent for all but about 5 minutes. Louisville is a team that lives off of turnovers and transition points, and we limited our mistakes for most of the night.

Brandon Ingram was amazing. He was quiet for a while, but he really put the team on his back in the second half after we fell apart. He is so steady and it really helped tonight. Also a critical factor was that with him at PF we had an easy pressbreaker. The Cardinals love to force turnovers with the pressing guards, but it just doesn't work when your PF can handle it and you can send guards to open spots. Ingram was just terrific. Led the team in rebounds and assists, was our most efficient scorer (just one point behind best scorer honors, too).

Allen had a really weird game. He was awesome in the first half but then got into some bad habits in the second (much like the UK game, driving out of control trying to buy fouls rather than making sound plays. He had a good night in total and was critical in building that big first half lead, though, so he gets a pass for the 5-minute hiccup.

Thornton and Jones both played very solid defense on Lewis and Lee, respectively. I think Lee wasn't 100% tonight, but he is still dangerous even at 80-90%.

Kennard had a solid game off the bench and hit some big shots. He did get two shots blocked, though, including a 3. Just misjudging UL's length.

Plumlee quietly had 10 and 8. He has been a solid, steady player all season. It was nice to see his little up and under move, too. Solid minutes from Jeter, too. He appears to be slowly coming along.

As Troublemaker said in the game thread, this win all but locks us into the tournament. If we just beat Wake and FSU, that should be enough thanks to this signature win. Obviously we want more, but it is good to be in fairly solid position to make the tourney.

Great, great win. This will hopefully give the guys confidence going into what will be an even tougher opponent (and worse matchup) this weekend.

[Furniture]

Yahoo says boards were 32-28 in favor of L'ville.

10-6 offensive boards for L'ville.

Duke is 11th in the conference in total rebounds given up. L'ville is only 8th.

SCACCHOOPS shows 32 Louiville 33 Duke.

http://www.scacchoops.com/louisville-at-duke-basketball-live-stats-02082016

[brevity]

Duke needed to gut it out.


A gutty win overall.

5922

Agreed.

[FerryFor50]

Just looked again at the box score - L'ville played a LOT of guys.

10 guys got minutes. 8 of them got at leat 15 minutes.

Duke played 7, with only one guy getting single digit minutes.

I imagine Duke was a bit tired after a relentless press and lots of physical play by relatively fresh L'ville players. Good thing next game isn't until Sat.

[hudlow]

Of course I was away from the TV when Grayson got the flagrant...what happened?

[Atldukie79]

Grayson seemed tired in the second half and I do not recall him scoring after the quick 3 at the start of the 2nd half. He hustled and played defense, but other than 3 forced drive shots, did not participate offensively. His 1st half was electric.

Brandon was the inverse...floated through the 1st half, but was a beast on the boards and hit FTs in 2nd.

Great gutty performance.

[Saratoga2]

This is a team that beat UNC and clearly have great athleticism and size. We had to be a tired team after a hotly contested first half. Yet, we pulled it out, mainly due to Brandon's actions late in the game. Some of the important things that I observed.

1. Marshall has grown as a player in the absence of Amile. He had a heck of a game, contesting shots, rebounding and even providing some needed offense. When Amile returns we will have a much more confident and capable Marshall. When he plays aggressively, he can make a very meaningful contribution to the team.

2. Brandon has such skills that along with his length is very hard for other teams to deal with. Despite him being rail thin, he did some great rebounding and really took over when it got tight at the end.

3. Grayson is an offensive force when he is fresh but tends to have problems when really tired. He needs to avoid chippy fouls like tripping and also needs to avoid forcing his plays when they are not there.

4. Its hard to follow what Matt does defensively unless you stop watching the ball and just watch him in isolation on defense.

5. All three of Derryck, Luke and Grayson went through periods where they made mistakes due to perhaps fatigue and also the pressure applied by Louisville. They all sucked it up and finished the game determined to win.

This team is growing better defensively and will be better still when Amile comes in and reduces the fatigue factor that they feel. On to Virginia who will be a different kind of test.

[FerryFor50]

Of course I was away from the TV when Grayson got the flagrant...what happened?

Allen felt like he got fouled on a drive. Fell to the ground. L'ville player (Spaulding) had ball near him and Allen put his foot out and tripped him. No foul call but they reviewed on the monitor and called it a flagrant 1.

Felt like he definitely tripped Spaulding on purpose.

[hudlow]

Allen felt like he got fouled on a drive. Fell to the ground. L'ville player (Spaulding) had ball near him and Allen put his foot out and tripped him. No foul call but they reviewed on the monitor and called it a flagrant 1.

Felt like he definitely tripped Spaulding on purpose.

Sounds like a blinding flash of dumbness overtook him.

He did right himself afterwards.

Much obliged for the explanation.

[Channing]

As a team, we closed. It got close with under 4 to play and we came out on top. BI was huge down the stretch as a stretch 4 and showed just how tough a matchup he is. Great to see the team finish strong!

[brevity]

Of course I was away from the TV when Grayson got the flagrant...what happened?

If you believe Twitter, Grayson Allen fell to the ground and sought his revenge by attacking a Louisville player. Straight up murdered him. Rick Pitino, suffering a horrific flashback to 1992, fainted on the sidelines, and the Louisville strength and conditioning coach did everything in his power to revive him. But it was too late.

Grayson got called for the flagrant, and Coach K ordered the officials to transport Grayson to the Mexican border tonight, so he can escape to a non-extradition country.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I haven't posted much on this board lately, but felt compelled to post after this win.

1) Brandon. Effing. Ingram. He took another huge step today. He has been aggressive at times, but we absolutely demanded the ball tonight. It was beautiful. The last 5 minutes he did something I haven't seen Ingram do: just demand the ball from whoever was roaming around the key. Ingram isn't an emotional dude, but that was emotion. He was already the #2 pick in the draft, but I think this game really helped to solidify that.

2) Kennard is a good shooter (not yet elite, but getting there). His offensive game is really versatile and he's a fun player to watch. He is also shockingly tall. There is no way Kennard and Allen are both 6'5" (despite listed that height). I think Kennard is 6'4" and Kennard is 6'6" (maybe even taller). With Kennard's size, shooting stroke, and versatile offensive game, he's gonna be a fun player to follow for at least the next 2.4 seasons.

3) Allen is a half player, ie he is either really good or really mediocre during a half. This game was just like that. Awesome first half, mediocre second half. And speaking of mediocre, what the hell was that flagrant 1? That was a dumb, dumb foul. He needs to learn who to harness that negative emotion. This isn't the first time that negative emotion has led to poor decisions/poor play.

4) We pumped ~10 spots in Kenpom's defensive rankings to 126! I'll take any improvement on that end.

5) I have to say it again. Ingram is a stud. He may not be our best scorer (Allen gets the nod), but he is without question our best player. I don't think I've wanted a player to stay another year more than Ingram since Luol Deng.

[53n206]

Allen felt like he got fouled on a drive. Fell to the ground. L'ville player (Spaulding) had ball near him and Allen put his foot out and tripped him. No foul call but they reviewed on the monitor and called it a flagrant 1.

Felt like he definitely tripped Spaulding on purpose.

After watching the play five, or six, or seven, or eight times, I agree with the call

[BLPOG]

Allen felt like he got fouled on a drive. Fell to the ground. L'ville player (Spaulding) had ball near him and Allen put his foot out and tripped him. No foul call but they reviewed on the monitor and called it a flagrant 1.

Felt like he definitely tripped Spaulding on purpose.

I really didn't see it that way. He moved the leg as he turned his head and body, shifting weight from the left side of his body to his right as he was trying to stand up. There was a similar play earlier in the season in which it looked like Grayson likely went for a trip, but I'm not buying it this time.

[Ballboy1998]

2) Kennard is a good shooter (not yet elite, but getting there). His offensive game is really versatile and he's a fun player to watch. He is also shockingly tall. There is no way Kennard and Allen are both 6'5" (despite listed that height). I think Kennard is 6'4" and Kennard is 6'6" (maybe even taller).

Well if Kennard is simultaneously 6'4" and 6'6", then I think 6'5" is a fair approximation! Just kidding - sounds like we will need to break out the cinderblocks to settle this one.

Huge win and a gutty effort. Even though Louisville scored at a much higher clip in the second half, I thought they made a number of difficult shots and this was Duke's best defensive effort from beginning to end at least since Amile went down. The freshman all continue to improve, which is great to watch.

[CDu]

After watching the play five, or six, or seven, or eight times, I agree with the call

I also think it was the right call. Allen drove to the rim thinking he would get fouled, but the defender bailed out and didn't foul him. He then appeared to stick his leg out. It was probably just a reflex. Kind of reminiscent of one of Winslow's moments against UVa last year, only not nearly as blatant. Not a good moment for Allen, but not worth dwelling over either. Thankfully it didn't cost us.

[FerryFor50]

I also think it was the right call. Allen drove to the rim thinking he would get fouled, but the defender bailed out and didn't foul him. He then appeared to stick his leg out. It was probably just a reflex. Kind of reminiscent of one of Winslow's moments against UVa last year, only not nearly as blatant. Not a good moment for Allen, but not worth dwelling over either. Thankfully it didn't cost us.

Oh, it cost us. L'ville hit both FTs and got the ball. I can't recall if they scored again, but that was a pretty big part of the reason L'ville was able to cut into that 15 point lead.

[ChillinDuke]

I really didn't see it that way. He moved the leg as he turned his head and body, shifting weight from the left side of his body to his right as he was trying to stand up. There was a similar play earlier in the season in which it looked like Grayson likely went for a trip, but I'm not buying it this time.

The issue is that he clearly tripped the player (flagrant or not), but the refs didn't call it a foul on the floor. They called it a turnover on L'Ville. It was so blatantly the wrong call that I think they erred on the side of reason and gave Grayson a flagrant so as not to blow the turnover call so terribly. (The announcers said that a foul/turnover call is not reviewable, but a flagrant is.) Further, the refs finished up the makeup call by calling a moving screen on Onuaku after the two L'Ville free throws. Net, net...it felt like a fair resolution for something that probably should've just been a simple, personal foul.

That said, wow what a win!!! Clearly, our best win of the year. So much to glean from this game, but I'll let other continue the excellent analysis and just sit back and enjoy this one.

- Chillin

[CDu]

Oh, it cost us. L'ville hit both FTs and got the ball. I can't recall if they scored again, but that was a pretty big part of the reason L'ville was able to cut into that 15 point lead.

I meant in the grand scheme of things. It certainly cost us immediate points.

[Furniture]

After watching the play five, or six, or seven, or eight times, I agree with the call

Unfortunately I agree with you. He was looking at the Louiville player as he lifted his leg....

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well if Kennard is simultaneously 6'4" and 6'6", then I think 6'5" is a fair approximation! Just kidding - sounds like we will need to break out the cinderblocks to settle this one.

Huge win and a gutty effort. Even though Louisville scored at a much higher clip in the second half, I thought they made a number of difficult shots and this was Duke's best defensive effort from beginning to end at least since Amile went down. The freshman all continue to improve, which is great to watch.

Hahaha. I'm an idiot.

I'm really impressed by the 3 freshman's ability to handle the ball. Sure - none are as good as Tyus - but they are all very competent with the ball in their hands.

[WiJoe]

Anybody else see Marshall limping around at the end? I'm a bit concerned about that.

[BLPOG]

The issue is that he clearly tripped the player (flagrant or not), but the refs didn't call it a foul on the floor. They called it a turnover on L'Ville. It was so blatantly the wrong call that I think they erred on the side of reason and gave Grayson a flagrant so as not to blow the turnover call so terribly. (The announcers said that a foul/turnover call is not reviewable, but a flagrant is.) Further, the refs finished up the makeup call by calling a moving screen on Onuaku after the two L'Ville free throws. Net, net...it felt like a fair resolution for something that probably should've just been a simple, personal foul.

That said, wow what a win!!! Clearly, our best win of the year. So much to glean from this game, but I'll let other continue the excellent analysis and just sit back and enjoy this one.

- Chillin

I had the same analysis during the game, but I don't like make-up calls. Ref knows he screwed up? Do better next time, don't double down.

[FerryFor50]

I had the same analysis during the game, but I don't like make-up calls. Ref knows he screwed up? Do better next time, don't double down.

Well, to be fair, the call on Onuaku was the right one. He's always setting moving screens.

[Ggallagher]

Anybody else see Marshall limping around at the end? I'm a bit concerned about that.

I noticed the same thing - and he seemed to be working on his shoe or foot at the sideline, but still kind of limped a little when he went back on the court. Got my fingers crossed.

[53n206]

After watching the play five, or six, or seven, or eight times, I agree with the call

However, I think that Allen reacted instinctively to the event.

[CDu]

Well, to be fair, the call on Onuaku was the right one. He's always setting moving screens.

Yeah he got called for (I think) three tonight. That particular one wasn't really his fault: their guard took off too soon and led the defender right into him on the move. But he commits his fair share on his own.

[CDu]

However, I think that Allen reacted instinctively to the event.

I agree. I don't think it was malicious. It was probably just a reflexive move. Doesn't change the call, but it wasn't completely awful on his part. Just unfortunate that he had a momentary brain fart and committed the error.

[Mike Corey]

Huge win for this group.

When Louisville came all the way back in the second half, Duke could have folded. Instead, they punched back and slowly built the lead back up, with some huge plays and huge rebounds and huge stops along the way.

That was a motivated Louisville team, and as ever, is well coached. And we were the better team for all but about 4 minutes tonight.

We need Amile with the stretch we've got coming up. But man oh man, was that a fun win. This team is growing up and getting better, and it's a lot easier to see after a W than an L. :)

[Billy Dat]

Brandon Ingram was amazing. He was quiet for a while, but he really put the team on his back in the second half after we fell apart. He is so steady and it really helped tonight. Also a critical factor was that with him at PF we had an easy pressbreaker. The Cardinals love to force turnovers with the pressing guards, but it just doesn't work when your PF can handle it and you can send guards to open spots. Ingram was just terrific. Led the team in rebounds and assists, was our most efficient scorer (just one point behind best scorer honors, too).



1) Brandon. Effing. Ingram. He took another huge step today. He has been aggressive at times, but we absolutely demanded the ball tonight. It was beautiful. The last 5 minutes he did something I haven't seen Ingram do: just demand the ball from whoever was roaming around the key. Ingram isn't an emotional dude, but that was emotion. He was already the #2 pick in the draft, but I think this game really helped to solWe obvioidify that.

5) I have to say it again. Ingram is a stud. He may not be our best scorer (Allen gets the nod), but he is without question our best player. I don't think I've wanted a player to stay another year more than Ingram since Luol Deng.

While he carried us down the stretch, I think Ingram, per CDu's PF comment, was huge the entire game. He was the primary ballhandler for nearly the entire time he was on the court. He made smart decisions, played solid D, rebounded, on wanted the ball every time down the stretch getting to the line over and over. What a performance, one I hope we'll keep seeing.



3) Allen is a half player, ie he is either really good or really mediocre during a half. This game was just like that. Awesome first half, mediocre second half. And speaking of mediocre, what the hell was that flagrant 1? That was a dumb, dumb foul. He needs to learn who to harness that negative emotion. This isn't the first time that negative emotion has led to poor decisions/poor play.


I think this is a little ungenerous as Grayson is likely a 2nd or 3rd team All American this year, but I know what you are saying. Bilas said what I was thinking, he started getting in that Kentucky game mode where he was driving into shot blockers instead of trying to finish over them. The flagrant was really poor judgement, but the kid is fiery. We obviously wouldn't win without his production.

This was such an important win. We had so many chances to keep the lead at 10+ and when they went on their run and took the lead, I thought we were punched out and exhausted from their pressure. But, we kept getting to the line, and Thornton made that improbable lay-up off the broken play. We had a few "ghosts" help us out, the wacky Kennard lost ball lay-up, we certainly were on the right side of the whistles (I'll take it - happily!), we got a lot of 50/50 balls, we got what we needed.

Best win of the year by far, a huge relief, these guys fight, and maybe, just maybe, the defense can keep getting better.

[Sluggo]

I worry about Grayson and the beating his body takes. Tonight it seemed like he turned his ankle once again, took a couple shots in the back, got hit in the "upper thigh" when trying to draw a charge and then there is the usual throwing of his body around the court either driving to the rim or going after loose balls. I don't think he knows any other way to play, I just hope he can withstand the abuse as he is so necessary to have on the court.

[lotusland]

Allen's trip going to ratchet up the hate. He's going to get an earful every away game so henmay as well embrace his nasty. Not by making dirty plays but he should use the crowd reaction as a motivating factor ala JJ. He's a passionate and uber competitive player and he lost his composure - it happens .

Everyone remembers the Laetner poke but remember when Singler slapped the ball out the opponents hands as he walked off the court after Clemson blew them out in Littlejohn? Clearly poor sportsmanship but it also made a statement.

[Indoor66]

Plumlee was a man out there. Good screening and recovery; great rebounding; solid rim protection. No win without his play.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This was such an important win. We had so many chances to keep the lead at 10+ and when they went on their run and took the lead, I thought we were punched out and exhausted from their pressure. But, we kept getting to the line, and Thornton made that improbable lay-up off the broken play. We had a few "ghosts" help us out, the wacky Kennard lost ball lay-up, we certainly were on the right side of the whistles (I'll take it - happily!), we got a lot of 50/50 balls, we got what we needed.

Best win of the year by far, a huge relief, these guys fight, and maybe, just maybe, the defense can keep getting better.

Probably was a little unfair. I would agree.

Grayson has the opposite problem of Ingram: his emotion gets the best of him and really affects his play whereas Ingram doesn't show much emotion. I'm sure Ingram has drive, but he doesn't show much (until tonight. Ingram was something else). I wish Allen would harness his emotions better. I love emotion players (Cook, Smith, Sulaimon, Winslow), but players need to channel that emotion correctly.

Allen is our best scorer. But he needs to be in a healthy mental state for that to happen. During Kentucky and the second half, he wasn't in a good state.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Allen's trip going to ratchet up the hate. He's going to get an earful every away game so henmay as well embrace his nasty. Not by making dirty plays but he should use the crowd reaction as a motivating factor ala JJ. He's a passionate and uber competitive player and he lost his composure - it happens .

Everyone remembers the Laetner poke but remember when Singler slapped the ball out the opponents hands as he walked off the court after Clemson blew them out in Littlejohn? Clearly poor sportsmanship but it also made a statement.

Is there that much Allen hate? Given a) the NCAA title game and b) everyone saying he was the next Laettner/Redick/[insert white Dukie here], I don't see that much hate (also, Twitter is Twitter. Everyone is hated on Twitter. You can't really use Twitter as a barometer).

Allen doesn't showboat much, and his plays are so athletic that you gotta appreciate them.

Maybe this trip gets him started on the "road to hatred". But I haven't really seen much this year.

[jipops]

After playing probably our best half of basketball this year in the first half, our guys fought off a lot of physical and emotional fatigue to grab this win. Marshall even remarked in the post game how tired they were in the 2nd. But pulling this one out took guts.

Great move by K to just give the ball to Brandon up top and have him drive. He's too long for UL to block his shot and they had to foul him around the basket.

Also, really solid D by Thornton tonight. He still makes some mistakes every now and then but you can see the gradual maturity.

I also really want to sing Marshall's praises. He's not a great talent, he has a knack for blowing a chippy every now and then, and his hands aren't very reliable. But his improvement has been immense in every aspect of the game. K has him playing with a lot of confidence out there.

Now hopefully these guys can get plenty of rest before uva.

[Troublemaker]

maybe, just maybe, the defense can keep getting better.

We'll need more games to confirm, but we may be trending well on the m2m front.

First, against Miami, we were down 14 points in the 2nd half before switching to m2m, and it helped get us back into the game (chop to a 5-pt deficit) before cratering down the stretch.

Next, we played the entire 2nd half against GaTech well in m2m.

Then, we played the 1st half against NCSU well in m2m.

Finally, tonight we put 2 good halves of m2m together in our biggest win of the season.

Clearly the next step is to put 3 good halves together against UVA ;-)

[NYBri]

We MAY look back on this season and say that Amile's injury was the best thing to happen to them... When all is said and done.

They have grown to a point they might not have achieved if Amile was with them all season long.

Now add the co-captain and they may achieve even better things.

Optimistic thread, yes...but...just sayin'.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

To beat L'ville next time we'll have to have Amile.
Love, Ima

[lotusland]

Is there that much Allen hate? Given a) the NCAA title game and b) everyone saying he was the next Laettner/Redick/[insert white Dukie here], I don't see that much hate (also, Twitter is Twitter. Everyone is hated on Twitter. You can't really use Twitter as a barometer).

Allen doesn't showboat much, and his plays are so athletic that you gotta appreciate them.

Maybe this trip gets him started on the "road to hatred". But I haven't really seen much this year.

Small sample size but yes GA is the most hated Dukie by UNC fans I know. Idk why but he's the most hated since Scheyer.

[FerryFor50]

Small sample size but yes GA is the most hated Dukie by UNC fans I know. Idk why but he's the most hated since Scheyer.

The Scheyer hate was always weird to me. Played hard and clean. They just hated the faces he made.

[BLPOG]

I noticed the same thing - and he seemed to be working on his shoe or foot at the sideline, but still kind of limped a little when he went back on the court. Got my fingers crossed.

I think that was actually something from before the game, but not serious. Coach K mentioned in the post-game presser that a few guys had some minor injuries and needed the rest between now and Saturday.

[Wahoo2000]

Small sample size but yes GA is the most hated Dukie by UNC fans I know. Idk why but he's the most hated since Scheyer.

I wouldn't say I "hate" Allen, but I'm a much bigger fan of the guys who play with emotion the right way (like Cook last year for instance) and not so much the guys who are prone to making the cheap/chippy plays that are often a lot more dangerous than they look (Winslow and Allen).

I think the frequent extreme head-snaps and hard flailing drives are disliked by a lot of opposing fans too (esp since a lot of people feel the Duke brand makes it easier for those guys to sell calls). Opposing fans look on it as a cheap, but (unfortunately) legal tactic. Same as the way people hate how soccer is filled with players taking dives/faking injuries to try and manipulate the refs there.

Looking forward to our matchup on Saturday - looks like you guys are turning the corner. And while Jefferson is probably my favorite player on your team, you'll forgive me if I hope he's not quite ready to return this weekend. Best of luck - aside from Saturday, of course!

[SkyBrickey]

D Thornton's on the ball defense is really something special. He's eliminating some of the silly overplays from earlier in the year and staying more and more focused throughout the game. We've had some great ones over the years - Amaker, Billy King, Wojo, Duhon - but I think DT's lateral quickness is unmatched. Not allowing the opposing PG to penetrate and forcing him to work really hard to initiate the offense is a huge advantage of Duke. Just loving the heck out of watching DT improve on both ends of the court this year.

[Furniture]

D Thornton's on the ball defense is really something special. He's eliminating some of the silly overplays from earlier in the year and staying more and more focused throughout the game. We've had some great ones over the years - Amaker, Billy King, Wojo, Duhon - but I think DT's lateral quickness is unmatched. Not allowing the opposing PG to penetrate and forcing him to work really hard to initiate the offense is a huge advantage of Duke. Just loving the heck out of watching DT improve on both ends of the court this year.

He has a hell of a dribble too. It's a weapon that's there just waiting to get used....

[OZ]

Plumlee quietly had 10 and 8.

It may have been "quietly" done at home, but it was not in Cameron. Plum worked hard for everything he got and it did not go unnoticed by the Crazies or the Crusties. The man gave everything he had; and he also almost chest bumped Luke into the infirmary.

[akg4y]

Is there that much Allen hate? .

Speaking from an outside fanbase (UVA), yes there is a lot. Its all of the fake head snapping, flops, and his propensity to be around "coincidental" plays when other players land on the ground... the tripping incident in this game, undercutting a Wake Forest player in the Wake game, etc. He's a great player, why he resorts to low-brow techniques like that is sure to draw a bunch of ire. Fortunately it seems the ACC refs at least are wising up to is and his acting jobs havent quite been getting the calls as frequently. I noticed 2-3x in this game where he overreacted to minimal to no contact trying to get a foul called and the refs ignored it.

EDIT: ...and now I finish reading the thread and see a fellow Wahoo just posted the same up above.

[Doria]

He has a hell of a dribble too. It's a weapon that's there just waiting to get used...

Yeah, I (usually) love watching him play. It looks like he's starting to develop a tactical speed change, too, instead of always just going full tilt. He's really fun to watch when he's playing well. I also love the competitor in him, and it makes me forgive some of the less desirable plays he's made. He likes the ball in the crunch times and end game, and we're fortunate we have that quality in multiple players this year.

Grayson... As for what I've seen, even from "legitimate" news sources, he does attract that special anti-Duke fervor. Of course, that trip did him no favors tonight. I love his fire, but it'd be great if he could harness it to only warm us, not to burn our house down; after all, this isn't MD.

[Saratoga2]

Yeah, I (usually) love watching him play. It looks like he's starting to develop a tactical speed change, too, instead of always just going full tilt. He's really fun to watch when he's playing well. I also love the competitor in him, and it makes me forgive some of the less desirable plays he's made. He likes the ball in the crunch times and end game, and we're fortunate we have that quality in multiple players this year.

Grayson... As for what I've seen, even from "legitimate" news sources, he does attract that special anti-Duke fervor. Of course, that trip did him no favors tonight. I love his fire, but it'd be great if he could harness it to only warm us, not to burn our house down; after all, this isn't MD.

A good PG needs to be reliable from the FT line. He is at around 70% but there is room for improvement there as he is sure to be fouled when handling late in the game.

[NashvilleDevil]

A good PG needs to be reliable from the FT line. He is at around 70% but there is room for improvement there as he is sure to be fouled when handling late in the game.

It helps this year that there are 3-4 guys who can handle the ball in crunch time and 2 of them, Luke and Grayson, are lights out FT shooters.

[luburch]

Speaking from an outside fanbase (UVA), yes there is a lot. Its all of the fake head snapping, flops, and his propensity to be around "coincidental" plays when other players land on the ground... the tripping incident in this game, undercutting a Wake Forest player in the Wake game, etc. He's a great player, why he resorts to low-brow techniques like that is sure to draw a bunch of ire. Fortunately it seems the ACC refs at least are wising up to is and his acting jobs havent quite been getting the calls as frequently. I noticed 2-3x in this game where he overreacted to minimal to no contact trying to get a foul called and the refs ignored it.

EDIT: ...and now I finish reading the thread and see a fellow Wahoo just posted the same up above.

1. Can't say I can recall Grayson flopping this year. I'm sure it's happened but no more than any other player in basketball. "Fake head snapping", you mean when he gets hit or bumped on nearly every single drive or when he's cutting off ball?

2. "Low-brow techniques", really? He drove, didn't get a foul call and instinctively stuck his foot out to trip a player. Stupid? Absolutely. Dirty? Nah. It's the natural reaction in that situation and one that anyone who has played basketball has had before. You're really going to claim he undercut the WF player? That's not what happened, but sure, continue with that narrative. Am I on IC?

People dislike Grayson, because they think they're supposed to. He's white, plays for Duke, and is an All American caliber guard. The perfect storm.

On a more positive note, I thought the Crazies were excellent last night.

[DukeFanSince1990]

1. Can't say I can recall Grayson flopping this year. I'm sure it's happened but no more than any other player in basketball. "Fake head snapping", you mean when he gets hit or bumped on nearly every single drive or when he's cutting off ball?

2. "Low-brow techniques", really? He drove, didn't get a foul call and instinctively stuck his foot out to trip a player. Stupid? Absolutely. Dirty? Nah. It's the natural reaction in that situation and one that anyone who has played basketball has had before. You're really going to claim he undercut the WF player? That's not what happened, but sure, continue with that narrative. Am I on IC?

People dislike Grayson, because they think they're supposed to. He's white, plays for Duke, and is an All American caliber guard. The perfect storm.

On a more positive note, I thought the Crazies were excellent last night.

Boom.

[Billy Dat]

If all of our players could play with the intensity of the Louisville strength and conditioning coach, we'd be undefeated, even without Amile. I'd be very scared to disappoint that dude.

[jv001]

A good PG needs to be reliable from the FT line. He is at around 70% but there is room for improvement there as he is sure to be fouled when handling late in the game.

I'm impressed with Thornton's defense but he still has room for improvement on the offensive end of the court. Last night's numbers: 29 minutes, 2-5 FGA, 4 points, 0-2 from three, 0-2 FTs, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 4 Turnovers, 1 block and 1 steal. I agree Derryck may go down as one of Duke's leading defenders and I expect him to get better offensively and he has shown improvement. He will get better with time. I'd hate to think where we would be without him since Amile's injury. Great win over a tough Louisville team. Now let's beat those Wahoos. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Boom.

If you guys were being a bit more honest, you could see that these UVa fans aren't totally off-base, and you do a disservice by reducing it to race.

Is it a complete coincidence that Allen ends up involved in almost every "controversial" physical play that goes to replay?

Do you really think each and every time he falls to the floor, there's sufficient contact to knock him over (he's pretty beefy)?

Fact is, Grayson is our Cam Newton - if he is on your team, you are damn glad and love his emotion. If he isn't, his faults are glaring. But at the end of the day, he's one of the best playing the game.

Love Allen, but don't write off the hate as racial. I suspect that if he wore a different shade of blue, we'd be very opinionated about him and less likely to see it as racial.

[tux]

If all of our players could play with the intensity of the Louisville strength and conditioning coach, we'd be undefeated, even without Amile. I'd be very scared to disappoint that dude.

That was crazy. I thought I was watching Will Ferrell in an SNL skit...

[Indoor66]

I thought I saw Shane sitting behind the bench - near the scorers table. It was early in the broadcast. Anyone else see him or was I being my usual delisional self? :cool:

[cruxer]

If you guys were being a bit more honest, you could see that these UVa fans aren't totally off-base, and you do a disservice by reducing it to race.
...
Love Allen, but don't write off the hate as racial. I suspect that if he wore a different shade of blue, we'd be very opinionated about him and less likely to see it as racial.

I don't know. Name the last white All-American Duke guard that wasn't hated by the deadspin, big lead, mostly young white guy crowd. There's something to this. Justise Winslow was far chippier last year than Grayson has ever been. He tripped. He kicked. He was all around physical in his play. He didn't generate much hate. Grayson's trip made thebiglead.com. Not the outcome of the game, mind you. The trip. For some reason young, white, male sports fans hate great white basketball players that don't play for their team, especially if they play for Duke. Maybe they're jealous. I can't explain it...

editing to add that anecdotally, most of my black friends (even UNC fans!) LOVE Allen's game. He has a playground style, like Hurley (they loved him too.) Small sample size, but it adds to my perception.
-c

[Owen Meany]

Grayson made a mistake last night. It was unfortunate, but in the grand scheme of things not really that big of a deal. I would guess that there were at least 10 instances of plays last night that were just as bad - where a player attempted to get in an unnecessarily rough shot on an opposing player - a tough pick in the backcourt, pushing extra hard through a pick, extra contact on a shooter, pushing off on a rebounder, etc. Unfortunately for Grayson, he is now subject to the same extra scrutiny, and ridiculous over-exaggeration, that some players seem to get. And this incident will not help him. USA today put this up on an article (referring to Allen as a villain). ESPN had a video on their front page. Seriously. During the Super Bowl, a player grabbed another player by his face mask and spun him around 180 degrees before throwing him out of bounds - by his face mask. This was the biggest sporting event in the world that day, but this dangerous play didn't get a video on ESPN.

People hated Wojo. There were 100 reasons that Wojo should have never made it as a major college athlete. But he busted his tail, never took a play off, and made himself into a defensive terror and very good NCAA player at the highest level. He should have been widely admired and held up as an example of what hard work can do. But he was hated. It said more about his critics than it did him. Only in bizzarro world could Wojo be seen as a villain.

Grayson shares a lot of Wojo's attributes - he works extremely hard, doesn't take plays off, plays with disregard for his own body - and that irritates fans of other teams. He does have a little bit of an edge at times - but it certainly isn't an unusual amount for a NCAA player. In fact, I think Allen is unusually quiet for such a big time player. But people are going to see what they want to see. They may love seeing their players pound, scratch and hold every player that dares enter into the lane. They may love blind side picks ion the back court. They may want their players to give extra hard fouls toplayers going up for dunks. But they are going to view Grayson's actions, in the larger context of a very physical game in which he definitely got as good as he gave, as beyond the pale.

I don't believe their is a credible argument to be made that Allen is a physical or dirty player, or that his actions fall anywhere outside the bounds of completely normal behavior for NCAA players. Allen goes 100 mph, and is the kind of guy you hate to have on the other team. He is an irritant. I understand that. He is not a dirty player. His actions don't warrant the extra bile that seems to come from some fans. But people see what they want to see, unfortunately for Grayson.

[du_bb1]

Yes, early in the game-Shane behind scorers table

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't know. Name the last white All-American Duke guard that wasn't hated by the deadspin, big lead, mostly young white guy crowd. There's something to this. Justise Winslow was far chippier last year than Grayson has ever been. He tripped. He kicked. He was all around physical in his play. He didn't generate much hate. Grayson's trip made thebiglead.com. Not the outcome of the game, mind you. The trip. For some reason young, white, male sports fans hate great white basketball players that don't play for their team, especially if they play for Duke. Maybe they're jealous. I can't explain it...

editing to add that anecdotally, most of my black friends (even UNC fans!) LOVE Allen's game. He has a playground style, like Hurley (they loved him too.) Small sample size, but it adds to my perception.
-c

Or, I could be wrong.... (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils)

[CDu]

1. Can't say I can recall Grayson flopping this year. I'm sure it's happened but no more than any other player in basketball. "Fake head snapping", you mean when he gets hit or bumped on nearly every single drive or when he's cutting off ball?

2. "Low-brow techniques", really? He drove, didn't get a foul call and instinctively stuck his foot out to trip a player. Stupid? Absolutely. Dirty? Nah. It's the natural reaction in that situation and one that anyone who has played basketball has had before. You're really going to claim he undercut the WF player? That's not what happened, but sure, continue with that narrative. Am I on IC?

People dislike Grayson, because they think they're supposed to. He's white, plays for Duke, and is an All American caliber guard. The perfect storm.

On a more positive note, I thought the Crazies were excellent last night.


If you guys were being a bit more honest, you could see that these UVa fans aren't totally off-base, and you do a disservice by reducing it to race.

Is it a complete coincidence that Allen ends up involved in almost every "controversial" physical play that goes to replay?

Do you really think each and every time he falls to the floor, there's sufficient contact to knock him over (he's pretty beefy)?

Fact is, Grayson is our Cam Newton - if he is on your team, you are damn glad and love his emotion. If he isn't, his faults are glaring. But at the end of the day, he's one of the best playing the game.

Love Allen, but don't write off the hate as racial. I suspect that if he wore a different shade of blue, we'd be very opinionated about him and less likely to see it as racial.


I don't know. Name the last white All-American Duke guard that wasn't hated by the deadspin, big lead, mostly young white guy crowd. There's something to this. Justise Winslow was far chippier last year than Grayson has ever been. He tripped. He kicked. He was all around physical in his play. He didn't generate much hate. Grayson's trip made thebiglead.com. Not the outcome of the game, mind you. The trip. For some reason young, white, male sports fans hate great white basketball players that don't play for their team, especially if they play for Duke. Maybe they're jealous. I can't explain it...

editing to add that anecdotally, most of my black friends (even UNC fans!) LOVE Allen's game. He has a playground style, like Hurley (they loved him too.) Small sample size, but it adds to my perception.
-c

I don't think Allen's a dirty player, or even close to it. I think he is an emotional player, and that emotion occasionally gets the better of him (last night's trip being an example). I do think there is some racial component to the general hate.

HOWEVER, I agree with Mt. Devil that it is definitely disingenuous to lump any and all complaints about Allen into the racial bias category. Allen DOES flail excessively in attempts to try to draw fouls, often with only the slightest contact. He's a smart player, and he knows how to get to the line. Guys who get to the line a ton usually have the skill of knowing how to induce foul calls from the refs. To fans who aren't paying close attention, it looks like Allen is getting brutalized on every drive. And that's exactly the goal: make it look like you're getting hammered even when you aren't, and you'll draw more fouls. Refs pay closer attention, but even they can be fooled. And more than a few times Allen has fooled the refs.

That's not to say Allen never gets fouled hard. He does, often. But that's a function of his reckless style. When you drive that hard that often you are bound to get fouled a fair amount of the time. It's just that he ALSO has a tendency to exaggerate any contact - even contact that he initiates. I don't blame him for trying to get those extra free calls whenever he can. His style takes its toll, so anything he can get away with is a plus. But that will certainly be an annoying habit to opposing fans, and it has nothing to do with race.

[cruxer]

Or, I could be wrong... (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils)

LOL I could have written that article for her...

[mkirsh]

Question for the UVa (and other) fans - was Tyus Jones hated as much as Allen? He did the "head snap" move to sell contact more than anyone I can remember.

Back to the game, one of the big highlights for me was finally winning on Big Monday. That was the 6th time we played 2 games in 3 days this season, and our first win in conference on short rest in 3 tries (other 2 being losses to Syracuse and Miami). When we played Syracuse, it was obvious that the young team had not been able to prepare for the Cuse's zone with only one day of walk-throughs, but it was encouraging to see how well they played against a very tough and unique Louisville D with short prep. Bodes well for the tournament if we can play our way in.

[CDu]

Question for the UVa (and other) fans - was Tyus Jones hated as much as Allen? He did the "head snap" move to sell contact more than anyone I can remember.

I would definitely say Allen does the call-selling/faking more, simply by virtue of having a much higher volume of possessions than Jones did. Though Jones certainly did it a lot, too.


Back to the game, one of the big highlights for me was finally winning on Big Monday. That was the 6th time we played 2 games in 3 days this season, and our first win in conference on short rest in 3 tries (other 2 being losses to Syracuse and Miami). When we played Syracuse, it was obvious that the young team had not been able to prepare for the Cuse's zone with only one day of walk-throughs, but it was encouraging to see how well they played against a very tough and unique Louisville D with short prep. Bodes well for the tournament if we can play our way in.

It was a HUGE win. There is no other way to put it. We REALLY needed to win this game. It puts us in so much better a position now that we actually have a meaningful win on our resume.

[cruxer]

Back to the game, one of the big highlights for me was finally winning on Big Monday. That was the 6th time we played 2 games in 3 days this season, and our first win in conference on short rest in 3 tries (other 2 being losses to Syracuse and Miami). When we played Syracuse, it was obvious that the young team had not been able to prepare for the Cuse's zone with only one day of walk-throughs, but it was encouraging to see how well they played against a very tough and unique Louisville D with short prep. Bodes well for the tournament if we can play our way in.

K says we're learning to play tired, which is a natural requirement to make a run in the postseason. Of course getting Amile back is likely a requirement too, but I love seeing the young guys learn and develop as the season progresses.

[Furniture]

I'm impressed with Thornton's defense but he still has room for improvement on the offensive end of the court. Last night's numbers: 29 minutes, 2-5 FGA, 4 points, 0-2 from three, 0-2 FTs, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 4 Turnovers, 1 block and 1 steal. I agree Derryck may go down as one of Duke's leading defenders and I expect him to get better offensively and he has shown improvement. He will get better with time. I'd hate to think where we would be without him since Amile's injury. Great win over a tough Louisville team. Now let's beat those Wahoos. GoDuke!

In previous games he has been a fairly efficient scorer and much more than you would think given some posters thoughts on him.
Thank heavens K thinks a lot of him. His comments in the last two game pressers are very clear that he is very happy with DT.
My eye test tells me that we are much better offensively with DT in the game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't know. Name the last white All-American Duke guard that wasn't hated by the deadspin, big lead, mostly young white guy crowd. There's something to this. Justise Winslow was far chippier last year than Grayson has ever been. He tripped. He kicked. He was all around physical in his play. He didn't generate much hate. Grayson's trip made thebiglead.com. Not the outcome of the game, mind you. The trip. For some reason young, white, male sports fans hate great white basketball players that don't play for their team, especially if they play for Duke. Maybe they're jealous. I can't explain it...

editing to add that anecdotally, most of my black friends (even UNC fans!) LOVE Allen's game. He has a playground style, like Hurley (they loved him too.) Small sample size, but it adds to my perception.
-c

Grayson is WAY more high profile than Justise was last year, in part because of the championship run from last year, and also because he isn't sharing the spotlight with anyone other than Ingram this year. He's the face of the program right now, for better or for worse, and is in all the ESPN promos, headlines, etc. None of last year's players had that sort of attention, regardless of race, and Grayson certainly didn't. If Justise had come back this year (wow, can you even imagine?) I'd wager he would be far more polarizing than he was last year. And you are right, Justise definitely had an... edge to him when it came to intensity and physicality.

Let's just hope Grayson doesn't feel moved to publish any poetry.

[hudlow]

If all of our players could play with the intensity of the Louisville strength and conditioning coach, we'd be undefeated, even without Amile. I'd be very scared to disappoint that dude.

The first thing that came to mind was "roid rage".

But there are people who have the intensity to make the veins on their head bulge out that way naturally....

[FerryFor50]

I don't think Allen's a dirty player, or even close to it. I think he is an emotional player, and that emotion occasionally gets the better of him (last night's trip being an example). I do think there is some racial component to the general hate.

HOWEVER, I agree with Mt. Devil that it is definitely disingenuous to lump any and all complaints about Allen into the racial bias category. Allen DOES flail excessively in attempts to try to draw fouls, often with only the slightest contact. He's a smart player, and he knows how to get to the line. Guys who get to the line a ton usually have the skill of knowing how to induce foul calls from the refs. To fans who aren't paying close attention, it looks like Allen is getting brutalized on every drive. And that's exactly the goal: make it look like you're getting hammered even when you aren't, and you'll draw more fouls. Refs pay closer attention, but even they can be fooled. And more than a few times Allen has fooled the refs.

That's not to say Allen never gets fouled hard. He does, often. But that's a function of his reckless style. When you drive that hard that often you are bound to get fouled a fair amount of the time. It's just that he ALSO has a tendency to exaggerate any contact - even contact that he initiates. I don't blame him for trying to get those extra free calls whenever he can. His style takes its toll, so anything he can get away with is a plus. But that will certainly be an annoying habit to opposing fans, and it has nothing to do with race.

Tyus Jones did the same stuff. The head thing, the throw body into defenders thing, and the "take a shot through Bronson Koenig's face" thing. Did Jones ever get backlash? Nope.

[BoiseDevil]

2) Kennard is a good shooter (not yet elite, but getting there). His offensive game is really versatile and he's a fun player to watch. He is also shockingly tall. There is no way Kennard and Allen are both 6'5" (despite listed that height). I think Kennard is 6'4" and Kennard is 6'6" (maybe even taller). With Kennard's size, shooting stroke, and versatile offensive game, he's gonna be a fun player to follow for at least the next 2.4 seasons.

Not a perfect measure, but I'm nearly 6'3" and hung around Grayson for 5 days in May, my guess is he's 6'3" in socks, 6'4" in shoes at best.

[oldnavy]

Tyus Jones did the same stuff. The head thing, the throw body into defenders thing, and the "take a shot through Bronson Koenig's face" thing. Did Jones ever get backlash? Nope.

He got backlash... maybe not in the media, but I heard it all the time from UNC fans...

[FerryFor50]

He got backlash... maybe not in the media, but I heard it all the time from UNC fans...

yea, but you could put Dean Smith in a Duke jersey and UNC fans would hate him.

[dukelifer]

If all of our players could play with the intensity of the Louisville strength and conditioning coach, we'd be undefeated, even without Amile. I'd be very scared to disappoint that dude.

Either that or suspended for breaking the noses of opposing players. There is intensity and there is crazy.

[wsb3]

And the love fest shall continue..


http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/02/duke-grayson-allen-villain-trips-louisville-player-intentionally#

[Indoor66]

He got backlash... maybe not in the media, but I heard it all the time from unCheat fans...

(Fixed the quoted part for you...)

Now that is a source I revere and trust. NOT! :mad::p

Why would you even listen to their crap? :cool:

[burnspbesq]

Contrast the hate for Grayson (the white face of a highly successful Duke program in a sport sometimes stereotyped as the special preserve of African-Americans) and the love for Myles Jones (the African-American face of a highly successful Duke program in a sport sometimes stereotyped as lily-white).

We live in a strange world.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

He got backlash... maybe not in the media, but I heard it all the time from UNC fans...

Yes, I heard lots of whining about the way Tyus would let his foot drift forward on jumpshots, initiating contact. I think if Tyus were on this team he'd the the target of a lot of dislike.


Contrast the hate for Grayson (the white face of a highly successful Duke program in a sport sometimes stereotyped as the special preserve of African-Americans) and the love for Myles Jones (the African-American face of a highly successful Duke program in a sport sometimes stereotyped as lily-white).

We live in a strange world.

Honestly, most of what I've heard isn't hate as much as people who think he's wildly overrated. I have heard smirks when it is mentioned he's on the Wooden Award short list as well as people who think all he does is shoot. Well, they aren't paying very close attention to him. As far as where the impression that he's over rated comes from, sadly, I think you have to blame Dickie V for part of it. The way he gushes over our individual players makes me nauseous, and I'm a friggin fan. If you are watching UNC play against FSU and have to listen to what a "great kid" Grayson is, it would be tough to stomach.

I will say that Grayson doesn't really match the "Duke stereotype" that I grew up dealing with. People hated Laettner because he was excellent and cocky. That's fine with me. Since then, most hatred seems to be focused on guys like Wojo or Paulus... players who lack the talent and athleticism and get by on "grit" and "toughness." Grayson has far more physical upside than these two, and is pretty damn good. Honestly, I'm less interested in how/why fans hate Grayson than I am interested in how he deals with it. Can he channel that emotion and use it, a la JJ?

[RepoMan]

HOWEVER, I agree with Mt. Devil that it is definitely disingenuous to lump any and all complaints about Allen into the racial bias category.

I am not 100% sure what you mean, but if you are suggesting that the reason that Allen is hated has nothing to do with race, I think you are completely wrong. There is definitely a race-based component to certain aspects of Duke hate -- what it means and why it exists are complex questions

[elvis14]

Grayson is WAY more high profile than Justise was last year, in part because of the championship run from last year, and also because he isn't sharing the spotlight with anyone other than Ingram this year. He's the face of the program right now, for better or for worse, and is in all the ESPN promos, headlines, etc. None of last year's players had that sort of attention, regardless of race, and Grayson certainly didn't. If Justise had come back this year (wow, can you even imagine?) I'd wager he would be far more polarizing than he was last year. And you are right, Justise definitely had an... edge to him when it came to intensity and physicality.

Let's just hope Grayson doesn't feel moved to publish any poetry.

Mtn.Devil, last year Okafor was on ESPN all day, every day! He was higher profile than Allen all year long. The coverage he received was much more than what Grayson is getting this year even as the face of the franchise.

I'm not liking these articles talking about Allen being more 'hated' or a 'villian' because of the tripping. The flagrant 1 was just the refs covering their I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.e$. They missed the call on Grayson getting undercut (the guy tried to get out of the way and not foul Grayson....he just didn't succeed). Then they missed the call on the trip and were about to give the ball (incorrectly) to Duke. Once they went to the monitors they couldn't give Grayson a personal foul (like they should have) they either had to give him a flagrant or admit that they blew the call and give Duke the ball. Either way it made Allen look worse than he should have (and no, he should not have tripped that guy!).

[kAzE]

Not a perfect measure, but I'm nearly 6'3" and hung around Grayson for 5 days in May, my guess is he's 6'3" in socks, 6'4" in shoes at best.

I always thought Grayson was 6'3". I'm not sure why he's listed at 6'5" anywhere. He is visibly shorter than both Luke and Matt.

He came in listed at 6'3" as a recruit: http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/recruiting/2014-basketball-prospects, and I'm pretty sure he didn't grow 2 inches over the past year. He's probably about 6'4" in shoes.

Luke is legitimately 6'5" in shoes. He has all the physical tools and the skills to be a great scorer, even at the next level. I think his game is even more suited for the NBA than Grayson's, because he doesn't rely as much on overpowering others with athleticism to score. Grayson is a beast going to the rim at this level, but in the NBA, he will be met at the rim by supreme athletes who will not let him finish. The Kentucky game was a NBA preview for Grayson.

[CameronDuke]

My two cents regarding Grayson - I thought the trip last night was blatantly intentional. There's no arguing Grayson didn't know what he was doing. He meant to trip the guy. Dirty? Maybe. Stupid? Definitely. The refs reviewed it and it got the call it deserved. He will learn and move on. Everyone needs to put it behind them. He's not the first person to do something like this. Heck, a few weeks ago, an NCAA player tripped a ref and was ejected. These are kids in the heat of battle that don't use the best judgment at times. It's really a non issue at this point.

For those criticizing Grayson for trying to draw fouls, name one team with a big time guard that doesn't try to draw fouls. I saw a few Virginia fans upstream in the thread criticizing his head knod moves he does to try and draw fouls. Sean Singletary made an absolute killing at Virginia with this move to draw fouls in the mid 2000s. I mean he was an expert at that move. I've seen Brogdon and Perrantes do that move several times this season and last as well. Chances are, most teams if not all teams have guards that try to draw fouls any way they can get them. That's just reality.

[oldnavy]

(Fixed the quoted part for you...)

Now that is a source I revere and trust. NOT! :mad::p

Why would you even listen to their crap? :cool:

Because I'm married to one and sired another one??

I don't give it any credence, but I do have to listen to it.

[Troublemaker]

Honestly, most of what I've heard isn't hate as much as people who think he's wildly overrated. I have heard smirks when it is mentioned he's on the Wooden Award short list as well as people who think all he does is shoot. Well, they aren't paying very close attention to him. As far as where the impression that he's over rated comes from, sadly, I think you have to blame Dickie V for part of it. The way he gushes over our individual players makes me nauseous, and I'm a friggin fan. If you are watching UNC play against FSU and have to listen to what a "great kid" Grayson is, it would be tough to stomach.

Seriously? If it's true that opposing fans believe Grayson is overrated and that all he does is shoot, I don't think the underlying reason is "Dickie V" unless that's how you spell skin color.

Anyway, this entire discussion about Grayson is pretty boring to me. Someone start the UVA thread, please. (Or maybe we can get back to discussion of the basketball aspects of this game.) [I'd start the UVA thread myself, but as always, I'm a superstitious loon and Duke lost the last time I started one.]

[kAzE]

My two cents regarding Grayson - I thought the trip last night was blatantly intentional. There's no arguing Grayson didn't know what he was doing. He meant to trip the guy. Dirty? Maybe. Stupid? Definitely. The refs reviewed it and it got the call it deserved. He will learn and move on. Everyone needs to put it behind them. He's not the first person to do something like this. Heck, a few weeks ago, an NCAA player tripped a ref and was ejected. These are kids in the heat of battle that don't use the best judgment at times. It's really a non issue at this point.

For those criticizing Grayson for trying to draw fouls, name one team with a big time guard that doesn't try to draw fouls. I saw a few Virginia fans upstream in the thread criticizing his head knod moves he does to try and draw fouls. Sean Singletary made an absolute killing at Virginia with this move to draw fouls in the mid 2000s. I mean he was an expert at that move. I've seen Brogdon and Perrantes do that move several times this season and last as well. Chances are, most teams if not all teams have guards that try to draw fouls any way they can get them. That's just reality.

I'm with you, I don't think Grayson deserves any flak for this . . . things happen in the heat of the moment. He thought he got hosed on the no-call, and stuck his leg out to slow Spalding's advance, probably not meaning to completely trip him. Justise Winslow had a moment like this last year when he decided to grab a player's arm or leg while he was down. Doesn't make him a stupid or dirty player. He's just a really emotional, and his constant rage (I like to think of him as a Sith warrior from Star Wars, if anybody gets that nerdy reference) fuels his on-court performance. Things like this happen. Move on. If it becomes a habit, then we can talk about it, but this is the first time I've seen anything like this from Grayson.

[NSDukeFan]

How did Grayson see Ingram at the top of the key for a 3-pointer when he was driving to the basket. I thoughts it was an amazing pass. Overall, Grayson is much better as a scorer than I anticipated coming into the year. I think that his passing ability on drives may be just as surprising. He has sometimes (UK game and a bit last night) got stuck driving inside against big guys and put up difficult shots and/or gotten blocked some, but overall I feel like he is one of the better passers when driving that Duke has had recently. He is certainly much better than first team all-ACC players Austin Rivers and Kyle Singler at passing while driving and may be better than Nolan Smith and/or Scheyer were. Tyus and Kyrie were better passers on the drive, but I am not sure if anyone else (maybe Quinn his Junior and Senior years?) has been in the last few years.

[Doria]

Thank heavens K thinks a lot of him. His comments in the last two game pressers are very clear that he is very happy with DT.
My eye test tells me that we are much better offensively with DT in the game.
Yeah, I don't think his game is perfect by any means. Saratoga rightly pointed out that he could stand to work on his free throws, but I'm happy that we can visibly see the improvement, and that it's such that he clearly makes a positive difference when he's on the floor.


Tyus Jones did the same stuff. The head thing, the throw body into defenders thing, and the "take a shot through Bronson Koenig's face" thing. Did Jones ever get backlash? Nope.


I am not 100% sure what you mean, but if you are suggesting that the reason that Allen is hated has nothing to do with race, I think you are completely wrong. There is definitely a race-based component to certain aspects of Duke hate -- what it means and why it exists are complex questions


Mtn.Devil, last year Okafor was on ESPN all day, every day! He was higher profile than Allen all year long. The coverage he received was much more than what Grayson is getting this year even as the face of the franchise.
Yeah, I saw Jones take some flack last year, but not to the point that news outlets were writing about it, and I saw almost nothing about Okafor. I really think you can't extricate it from race to some degree. It also (Laettner aside) seems to affect our guards/wings more frequently. And I think you can't separate it from style of play. If Allen just stood in a corner shooting jump shots, I don't think anyone would be talking about this.

Anyhow, while interesting, it's really neither here nor there in discussing what a super win we had last night. On to UVA!

[Steven43]

Hahaha. I'm an idiot.

I'm really impressed by the 3 freshman's ability to handle the ball. Sure - none are as good as Tyus - but they are all very competent with the ball in their hands.

Yet all three of Brandon, Luke, and Derryck might end up having a better NBA career than Tyus. It will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.

By the way, I'm a HUGE Tyus Jones fan. From the time I saw his first game at Duke--the great ballhandling, the wonderful passing ability, the court vision, the demeanor, the leadership--I knew he was going to be a great college player.

And he turned out to be even better than I thought. He is my second favorite Duke point guard of all time. Had he played four seasons, I think he would have eclipsed Bobby, who is still clearly the best Duke PG ever, and one of the top 5 in college basketball history.

[kAzE]

How did Grayson see Ingram at the top of the key for a 3-pointer when he was driving to the basket. I thoughts it was an amazing pass. Overall, Grayson is much better as a scorer than I anticipated coming into the year. I think that his passing ability on drives may be just as surprising. He has sometimes (UK game and a bit last night) got stuck driving inside against big guys and put up difficult shots and/or gotten blocked some, but overall I feel like he is one of the better passers when driving that Duke has had recently. He is certainly much better than first team all-ACC players Austin Rivers and Kyle Singler at passing while driving and may be better than Nolan Smith and/or Scheyer were. Tyus and Kyrie were better passers on the drive, but I am not sure if anyone else (maybe Quinn his Junior and Senior years?) has been in the last few years.

It was probably a designed play, and Grayson knew that Brandon would be standing there, but I agree 100% that Grayson is a great passer. Some of his post feeds to Marshall are through very tight windows and at the very last second, after drawing 2 or even 3 defenders in the air. Sometime it gets him in trouble, but because he does try to score inside so often every game, defenders are forced to commit to him whenever he's looking at the rim, which frees up his teammates quite often for easy buckets off of his spectacular feeds. He should easily finish the year as the team leader in points and assists.

[FerryFor50]

Honestly, most of what I've heard isn't hate as much as people who think he's wildly overrated. I have heard smirks when it is mentioned he's on the Wooden Award short list as well as people who think all he does is shoot. ?

Gee, I wonder why someone who hasn't watched him play would think all he does is shoot...

[Doria]

Yet all three of Brandon, Luke, and Derryck might end up having a better NBA career than Tyus. It will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.

By the way, I'm a HUGE Tyus Jones fan. From the time I saw his first game at Duke--the great ballhandling, the wonderful passing ability, the court vision, the demeanor, the leadership--I knew he was going to be a great college player.

And he turned out to be even better than I thought. He is my second favorite Duke point guard of all time. Had he played four seasons, I think he would have eclipsed Bobby, who is still clearly the best Duke PG ever, and one of the top 5 in college basketball history.

I totally agree with pretty much everything you've said. It helps that Bobby was the
PG when I was at Duke, but I loved watching him play, and Tyus last year.

I'm also loving Luke as a SG. Smart player and I think, though he's not an upperclassman, he's shown a propensity for leadership that we sorely need. He always seems very vocal in huddled and on the court.

[FerryFor50]

My two cents regarding Grayson - I thought the trip last night was blatantly intentional. There's no arguing Grayson didn't know what he was doing. He meant to trip the guy. Dirty? Maybe. Stupid? Definitely. The refs reviewed it and it got the call it deserved. He will learn and move on. Everyone needs to put it behind them. He's not the first person to do something like this. Heck, a few weeks ago, an NCAA player tripped a ref and was ejected. These are kids in the heat of battle that don't use the best judgment at times. It's really a non issue at this point.

For those criticizing Grayson for trying to draw fouls, name one team with a big time guard that doesn't try to draw fouls. I saw a few Virginia fans upstream in the thread criticizing his head knod moves he does to try and draw fouls. Sean Singletary made an absolute killing at Virginia with this move to draw fouls in the mid 2000s. I mean he was an expert at that move. I've seen Brogdon and Perrantes do that move several times this season and last as well. Chances are, most teams if not all teams have guards that try to draw fouls any way they can get them. That's just reality.

Yup. And the same could be said for players taking charges. I can't count how often UNC fans go on and on about Duke players "flopping." Then I go show them clips of Zeller, Hansbrough, etc.

[rsvman]

Happiest to see that the guys didn't wilt when the lead slipped away. They hung tough until the end and got a huge win. Very proud of the team. Good stuff from every guy who played.


(As for Grayson, if you haven't seen him do other things this season that were "chippy" at best and "dirty" at worst, you haven't been paying much attention. He's a lot like Justise when it comes to that sort of thing. I hope he can dial it back a little. I'd hate to see him get ejected in an important game. And now that "trip-gate" is all over the interwebs, the refs may be watching him a little more closely. He needs to clean it up some, or at least play it closer to his vest.)


On to UVA!

[kAzE]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils

Why? Why does this have to be about race and Duke players being villians? Why does this even deserve a front page article? Grayson is an outstanding young man and a great player. Is getting clicks on your website really that big a part of the ESPN agenda? I didn't see any front page articles about Justise Winslow's "dirty" play last year. SMH.

[rsvman]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils

Why? Why does this have to be about race and Duke players being villians? Why does this even deserve a front page article? Grayson is an outstanding young man and a great player. Is getting clicks on your website really that big a part of the ESPN agenda?

In a word, yes.


Prolly argue that it's not a big part of the agenda; it IS the agenda.

[FerryFor50]

In a word, yes.


Prolly argue that it's not a big part of the agenda; it IS the agenda.

It's not even an agenda. It's their business model.

[Wahoo2000]

Question for the UVa (and other) fans - was Tyus Jones hated as much as Allen? He did the "head snap" move to sell contact more than anyone I can remember.

Haven't even gotten around to the rest of the thread, so this may have been addressed, but yes. Absolutely.

Again, for the record, I don't "hate" Allen. I think he's a guy similar to Winslow that lets his emotions overtake common sense a little bit too often. Maybe I'm too old-school, but I abhor chippy/cheap-shot play. Your "natural reaction" should never be to trip, grab, or push an opposing player. I can't stand that stuff.

As far as the head-snap stuff, that's very annoying, but on a much lower-tier of "wrong" than dangerous plays. But to answer the question posed in the quote, YES, it's was just as annoying with Jones. For that matter, I also dislike Seth Allen, Melo Trimble, etc, etc, etc just as much - it's not a Duke only thing, but I will say I feel that Jones and Allen specifically seem to be some of the worst offenders, at times even initiating that contact with defenders on the bounce more than once on a drive and coupling it with the violent head-snap/sniper shot movements in attempts to manipulate the referees. Sometimes there's a real foul there, sometimes there isn't. Like I said earlier, you can't blame people for disliking this though as it's getting into the realm of "soccer flopping".

I don't mind guys selling calls. I do mind if they try to create a call where there should be none. Just a sportsmanship thing, but to each their own. I'm not going to say it hasn't been an effective technique though.

[cato]

"Head snap" is my new favorite gripe.

[kAzE]

"Head snap" is my new favorite gripe.

Does Grayson do the head snap that often? Tyus for sure did that every time he got a little body contact, but I feel like Grayson for the most part just creates legit collisions, and forces the refs to make a call. I'm not seeing the theatrics as much. I'll need to pay closer attention to replays.

[CDu]

Does Grayson do the head snap that often? Tyus for sure did that every time he got a little body contact, but I feel like Grayson for the most part just creates legit collisions, and forces the refs to make a call. I'm not seeing the theatrics as much. I'll need to pay closer attention to replays.

He does a lot of both. He has plenty of big collisions, and plenty of head-snaps/flails/body contortions that make it look like there was heavy contact too. He is actually really adept at doing it, so much so that the average person only loosely paying attention assumes it is real contact.

That isn't meant to say he's always faking. He also does get a ton of actual contact too. But he also has quite a bit of faking it.

And yes, he's not the only one who has learned to do that in major basketball (college or pro).

[RepoMan]

"Head snap" is my new favorite gripe.

Me too! Can someone post a head snap video. Want to be sure I understand this particular gripe!

[NYBri]

"Head snap" is my new favorite gripe.

Right up there with "flop' and "leg kick."

[Billy Dat]

Me too! Can someone post a head snap video. Want to be sure I understand this particular gripe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqmemnOzeY&t=1m27s

[Indoor66]

Because I'm married to one and sired another one??

I don't give it any credence, but I do have to listen to it.

I guess some of us are luckier than others in that regard. ;)

I'm sure that both of them are really nice people and I know that God will forgive their shortcoming (as hard as that might be). :cool:

[akg4y]

Question for the UVa (and other) fans - was Tyus Jones hated as much as Allen? He did the "head snap" move to sell contact more than anyone I can remember.

Back to the game, one of the big highlights for me was finally winning on Big Monday. That was the 6th time we played 2 games in 3 days this season, and our first win in conference on short rest in 3 tries (other 2 being losses to Syracuse and Miami). When we played Syracuse, it was obvious that the young team had not been able to prepare for the Cuse's zone with only one day of walk-throughs, but it was encouraging to see how well they played against a very tough and unique Louisville D with short prep. Bodes well for the tournament if we can play our way in.


I dont know about Tyus Jones, but Justice Winslow sure was on the UVA boards, especially with the Justin Anderson incident. It has nothing to do with race, there's a full thread discussing hated Duke players on thesabre.com right now (UVA's board), race is not a factor. It has more to do with a pattern of players over time using these "techniques" and not infrequently making these plays. Im sure part of it is so many Duke games are on TV and under the microscope but the fact that year in and year out there seems to be one player on Duke flopping, head snapping, or making these intentional fouls just brings up the question of why. There are at least a handful of other teams with the same success level as Duke, and yet they dont seem to have these types of players year in and year out. Yes, some of it gets blown out of proportion because people WANT to hate Duke, but these players are giving them reason enough to do so, beyond simply winning games.

[akg4y]

Tyus Jones did the same stuff. The head thing, the throw body into defenders thing, and the "take a shot through Bronson Koenig's face" thing. Did Jones ever get backlash? Nope.

He didnt do it to nearly the same degree, and a lot of the attention was deflected away by Winslow who was more blatantly taking cheap shots.

[akg4y]

For those criticizing Grayson for trying to draw fouls, name one team with a big time guard that doesn't try to draw fouls. I saw a few Virginia fans upstream in the thread criticizing his head knod moves he does to try and draw fouls. Sean Singletary made an absolute killing at Virginia with this move to draw fouls in the mid 2000s. I mean he was an expert at that move. I've seen Brogdon and Perrantes do that move several times this season and last as well. Chances are, most teams if not all teams have guards that try to draw fouls any way they can get them. That's just reality.

Actually we draw fouls among the lowest in the league, but that has to do more with the way we play. Driving to the hoop isnt a huge part of our offensive system.
That misses the point though, VT draws a ton of fouls but the same complaints arent made about their players because they arent trying to earn Oscars and a foul at the same time. If you get fouled, you get fouled, the times you pretend like you've gotten a sniper shot to the head when nobody touched you is what is irritating, especially when it is done nearly every time Allen has the ball.

[akg4y]

Does Grayson do the head snap that often? Tyus for sure did that every time he got a little body contact, but I feel like Grayson for the most part just creates legit collisions, and forces the refs to make a call. I'm not seeing the theatrics as much. I'll need to pay closer attention to replays.

Im sure you've seen this famous vine, two sniper shots to the head in one play!
https://vine.co/v/iumQmDp7637

[luburch]

Actually we draw fouls among the lowest in the league, but that has to do more with the way we play. Driving to the hoop isnt a huge part of our offensive system.
That misses the point though, VT draws a ton of fouls but the same complaints arent made about their players because they arent trying to earn Oscars and a foul at the same time. If you get fouled, you get fouled, the times you pretend like you've gotten a sniper shot to the head when nobody touched you is what is irritating, especially when it is done nearly every time Allen has the ball.

Man, I'm surprised someone hasn't approached him about signing a big-time movie contract if he's that good at acting. :)

[Wahoo2000]

There are at least a handful of other teams with the same success level as Duke, and yet they dont seem to have these types of players year in and year out.

Sure, but there are plenty of other programs that DO have guys that do the exact same thing. I'm going to depart from a lot of my more emotional bretheren over on thesabre and say this isn't a "Duke thing". It's not coached or encouraged by K. To say that is pretty irresponsible, and IMO - some low-rent conspiracy theory type of crap. These are the same people who thought in the 80s there was an ACC conspiracy to give UNC every important call in every close game, and it's the same people who cry that the MD/Duke final 4 game was "rigged", and the same people who think there's a conspiracy by the media to not give UVA "the respect it deserves". It ALL drives me semi-nuts, though I do feel that a lot of times when stuff like that is said, it's just fans kind of BSing and blowing off steam on their own boards, which makes it very slightly more tolerable.

I'll also make it clear for any guys from thesabre that read this: I don't dislike you or think you're dumb for posting that stuff, and I hope I don't become a pariah for complaining about it here - though I won't be shocked if I get some grief. For the record, I want to beat Duke more than any other team in the conference, and they do have players that I dislike (hope that gets you off my back a bit).

[The Gordog]

Im sure you've seen this famous vine, two sniper shots to the head in one play!
https://vine.co/v/iumQmDp7637

Some people just don't like getting poked in the eye. Once that happens a few times in a game you tend to try to avoid it whether you want to or not.

[oldnavy]

I guess some of us are luckier than others in that regard. ;)

I'm sure that both of them are really nice people and I know that God will forgive their shortcoming (as hard as that might be). :cool:

They are both awesome and I wouldn't change one single thing about them!!

Variety is the spice of life... I have more fun arguing with them about Duke/UNC than I ever could agreeing with them!!

I would hate a world with nothing but Old Navy's in it.... yuk!!

[Owen Meany]

I dont know about Tyus Jones, but Justice Winslow sure was on the UVA boards, especially with the Justin Anderson incident. It has nothing to do with race, there's a full thread discussing hated Duke players on thesabre.com right now (UVA's board), race is not a factor. It has more to do with a pattern of players over time using these "techniques" and not infrequently making these plays. Im sure part of it is so many Duke games are on TV and under the microscope but the fact that year in and year out there seems to be one player on Duke flopping, head snapping, or making these intentional fouls just brings up the question of why. There are at least a handful of other teams with the same success level as Duke, and yet they dont seem to have these types of players year in and year out. Yes, some of it gets blown out of proportion because people WANT to hate Duke, but these players are giving them reason enough to do so, beyond simply winning games.

Sorry. This is garbage. Duke doesn't have any more of this than other teams. There is no pattern here. There is no permissiveness at Duke that doesn't exist elsewhere. Duke is under the microscope because it has had a very high level of success over an extended period of time, coupled with an over all feeling that Duke runs a clean program with players who tend to do well on and off the court. Therefore, people revel in (actually, wallow in might be a better description) any opportunity to point out any time a Duke player or coach does something wrong. The criticisms of Coach K for coaching the National Team are a perfect example of the absurd level to which many people can take this. The fact that Grayson Allen's actions have been referred to more than once as "dangerous" in this thread also reveals the hyperbolic nature of the Duke criticisms.

I find it humorous when fans of other teams suggest Coach K teaches or allows bad behavior by his team. It seems to me he has a pretty good track record of developing successful young men. I can remember a 4 year stretch where 4 different Duke basketball players won the NBA Sportsmanship Award. Pretty remarkable for one program. That is 4 more players than the entire rest of the ACC has had named to that award combined - 6 less if you count all 3 times Grant Hill won. Interestingly, David Robinson won the award and saw fit to send his son to Duke. And Steph Curry won the award, and his family evidently saw nothing nefarious about the Duke program.

I think Tony Bennet is a really good coach. I think he has had several really good teams now. But I hate the way they grab, push and hold anyone who comes near the lane. I was peeved when he ran 10 feet onto the court during play during the ACC Championship 2 years ago without receiving a technical. I don't consider any of these actions to be sterling examples of sportsmanship. I am pretty sure I could find many more examples of less than model behavior by Virginia athletes if I wanted to. But 1.)I don't care enough about Virginia basketball to do so. 2.)I realize that these are college kids (and coaches) who sometimes make mistakes. But overall they seem to be doing a pretty good job. So I won't pretend to take the moral high ground and suggests there is something in the water that causes uniquely bad behavior by UVA athletes. Because its nonsense. Just as your suggestion about Duke is nonsense.

I have no doubt that there is a long thread on thesabre.com about Allen. I would be interested to know how many of those posters extended 1/10 the energy they did there to comment on George Huguely, or any other UVA athlete that failed to live up to their high expectations? I am guessing most save their ire for Allen and Duke. So the selective outrage at Duke's misdeeds, both real and imagined, is tiresome.

[tbyers11]

There are at least a handful of other teams with the same success level as Duke, and yet they dont seem to have these types of players year in and year out. Yes, some of it gets blown out of proportion because people WANT to hate Duke, but these players are giving them reason enough to do so, beyond simply winning games.

I disagree that Duke has a higher proportion of these types of players than anyone else. IT IS exposure/familiarity and confirmation bias. You see Duke on TV a lot. So you them doing these "types of plays" more often. The Harrison twins at UK quickly come to mind as players who looked like they got shot every time they drove into the paint. I saw them do it a lot but I have no idea if they did more often than a slashing 2 guard from South Dakota St because I never saw him play.

With respect to confirmation bias, people want to dislike Duke and find flaws with them because they are successful. I remember Olivier Hanlan doing the same thing for BC but because they typically sucked no one posted Vines of his antics or wrote a column on ESPN about it

Like another poster said, UVA seems to deny freedom of movement to cutters through the lane a lot more than most other teams. No one seemed to care much when you were under .500 in the ACC the first few years under Bennett. But now that you have been really good for several years people harp about about it because they need some excuse for why they lost to your team besides "They were better than us".

[CameronDuke]

Actually we draw fouls among the lowest in the league, but that has to do more with the way we play. Driving to the hoop isnt a huge part of our offensive system.
That misses the point though, VT draws a ton of fouls but the same complaints arent made about their players because they arent trying to earn Oscars and a foul at the same time. If you get fouled, you get fouled, the times you pretend like you've gotten a sniper shot to the head when nobody touched you is what is irritating, especially when it is done nearly every time Allen has the ball.

This is a gross exaggeration on your part and your dislike for Duke shines through a bit too much for me to take this seriously. The earning Oscars comment and the sniper shot comment are bush league and not indicative of the intelligence level of nearly all Virginia fans I've encountered (and I have many long time Virginia fans around me, living in Richmond - some alum and family, actually). You obviously have strong disdain for Duke and especially Grayson Allen. What he did was intentional and stupid. I haven't read any Duke fans try to argue otherwise here. But the winning an Oscar on every flop and sniper shot comments lack merit, originality, and are a tired argument if you even consider that an argument. If you want to hate on Grayson Allen, by all means do it on your own boards. I respect most Virginia fans I meet, love going to the JPJ in Charlottesville when I get a chance to see Duke and Virginia play, and I admire what Tony Bennett has done up there at Virginia. But spare us from the conspiracy theory over the top hogwash you're spewing about trying to win an Oscar and sniper shots.

[akg4y]

I disagree that Duke has a higher proportion of these types of players than anyone else. IT IS exposure/familiarity and confirmation bias. You see Duke on TV a lot. So you them doing these "types of plays" more often. The Harrison twins at UK quickly come to mind as players who looked like they got shot every time they drove into the paint. I saw them do it a lot but I have no idea if they did more often than a slashing 2 guard from South Dakota St because I never saw him play.

With respect to confirmation bias, people want to dislike Duke and find flaws with them because they are successful. I remember Olivier Hanlan doing the same thing for BC but because they typically sucked no one posted Vines of his antics or wrote a column on ESPN about it

Like another poster said, UVA seems to deny freedom of movement to cutters through the lane a lot more than most other teams. No one seemed to care much when you were under .500 in the ACC the first few years under Bennett. But now that you have been really good for several years people harp about about it because they need some excuse for why they lost to your team besides "They were better than us".


Look Im not here to stir up defensiveness or an argument about what makes a team better or worse etc. Someone asked if there was hate for Grayson Allen and I piped in to mention why. These forums tend to be much more even-keeled and have a higher basketball IQ than most every other basketball forum so the discussions here are more interesting.

I dont think comparing freedom of movement etc to exaggerating movements to try to draw fouls is the same thing. One is a way to play the game within the rules, if fouls are called because they are hand checking so be it, but intentionally trying to make the refs call fouls that arent committed, tripping players, etc is a completely different beast. You may not agree that Duke has a higher proportion of players that do this, yet in this thread alone Duke fans have mentioned 3 players in the last 2 years (Jones, Winslow, and Allen) that fit the mold, plus plenty of players from prior years.

The Harrison twins from Kentucky were mentioned as a comparison, but I cant remember anyone complaining about those guys repeatedly acting to draw fouls. All teams have players that do it occasionally, but when it becomes a go to move rather than focusing on the game itself is where it is a problem. Watch Allen in the next game, when he drives to the basket... anytime there is a player remotely close to him he exaggerates to try and get the ref to make a call. You can rewatch the last game and see it... the refs fortunately seem to have clued in to it compared to early in the season and are no longer calling it as much, to the point that last night there were even some plays where Allen probably was fouled and they didnt call it.

[akg4y]

This is a gross exaggeration on your part and your dislike for Duke shines through a bit too much for me to take this seriously. The earning Oscars comment and the sniper shot comment are bush league and not indicative of the intelligence level of nearly all Virginia fans I've encountered (and I have many long time Virginia fans around me, living in Richmond - some alum and family, actually). You obviously have strong disdain for Duke and especially Grayson Allen. What he did was intentional and stupid. I haven't read any Duke fans try to argue otherwise here. But the winning an Oscar on every flop and sniper shot comments lack merit, originality, and are a tired argument if you even consider that an argument. If you want to hate on Grayson Allen, by all means do it on your own boards. I respect most Virginia fans I meet, love going to the JPJ in Charlottesville when I get a chance to see Duke and Virginia play, and I admire what Tony Bennett has done up there at Virginia. But spare us from the conspiracy theory over the top hogwash you're spewing about trying to win an Oscar and sniper shots.

I actually have almost no disdain for Duke. I was one of the few people rooting for them last night on our boards because a Louisville loss helps UVA more than a Duke loss, to the dismay of everyone else.

As for trying to make this "a level of intelligence" discussion, please dont pat yourself on the back so much. Take a look at the vine linked above and explain the physics of what makes Allen's head snap back twice in the same play with no contact then...

[CameronDuke]

Look Im not here to stir up defensiveness or an argument about what makes a team better or worse etc. Someone asked if there was hate for Grayson Allen and I piped in to mention why. These forums tend to be much more even-keeled and have a higher basketball IQ than most every other basketball forum so the discussions here are more interesting.

I dont think comparing freedom of movement etc to exaggerating movements to try to draw fouls is the same thing. One is a way to play the game within the rules, if fouls are called because they are hand checking so be it, but intentionally trying to make the refs call fouls that arent committed, tripping players, etc is a completely different beast. You may not agree that Duke has a higher proportion of players that do this, yet in this thread alone Duke fans have mentioned 3 players in the last 2 years (Jones, Winslow, and Allen) that fit the mold, plus plenty of players from prior years.

The Harrison twins from Kentucky were mentioned as a comparison, but I cant remember anyone complaining about those guys repeatedly acting to draw fouls. All teams have players that do it occasionally, but when it becomes a go to move rather than focusing on the game itself is where it is a problem. Watch Allen in the next game, when he drives to the basket... anytime there is a player remotely close to him he exaggerates to try and get the ref to make a call. You can rewatch the last game and see it... the refs fortunately seem to have clued in to it compared to early in the season and are no longer calling it as much, to the point that last night there were even some plays where Allen probably was fouled and they didnt call it.

Sean Singletary did pretty much the identical movement you're referring to on many of his drives to the basket under coach Dave Leitao in the mid to late 2000s. He head snapped with the best of them. Perrantes has head snapped his fair share this season too. It's a move commonly displayed by players on teams nationwide, so why only the outrage at Grayson Allen? Why not get as fired up and angry when another player on a different team executes the head snap move?

[jv001]

Look Im not here to stir up defensiveness or an argument about what makes a team better or worse etc. Someone asked if there was hate for Grayson Allen and I piped in to mention why. These forums tend to be much more even-keeled and have a higher basketball IQ than most every other basketball forum so the discussions here are more interesting.

I dont think comparing freedom of movement etc to exaggerating movements to try to draw fouls is the same thing. One is a way to play the game within the rules, if fouls are called because they are hand checking so be it, but intentionally trying to make the refs call fouls that arent committed, tripping players, etc is a completely different beast. You may not agree that Duke has a higher proportion of players that do this, yet in this thread alone Duke fans have mentioned 3 players in the last 2 years (Jones, Winslow, and Allen) that fit the mold, plus plenty of players from prior years.

The Harrison twins from Kentucky were mentioned as a comparison, but I cant remember anyone complaining about those guys repeatedly acting to draw fouls. All teams have players that do it occasionally, but when it becomes a go to move rather than focusing on the game itself is where it is a problem. Watch Allen in the next game, when he drives to the basket... anytime there is a player remotely close to him he exaggerates to try and get the ref to make a call. You can rewatch the last game and see it... the refs fortunately seem to have clued in to it compared to early in the season and are no longer calling it as much, to the point that last night there were even some plays where Allen probably was fouled and they didnt call it.

You are way off base here. Grayson is trying to let the refs know that they missed the 20 or so holds/grabs he absorbed previously that they did not call. He's just like JJ in that manner. JJ had more missed holding calls than any player I know. The so called "Duke hate" comes from success on the court, class room and life after basketball. It's called jealousy, plain and simple. Your green is showing, I would quit while you're not ahead, GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

The Harrison twins from Kentucky were mentioned as a comparison, but I cant remember anyone complaining about those guys repeatedly acting to draw fouls.

I think that's sort of the point some people here are trying to make. The fact is that the "head snap" has become a very common move these days. It's not a Duke thing at all; turn on any game at random and you'll see it. But people seem to complain when Duke does it and not when others do.

As for Grayson Allen, while it's true he attempts to draw fouls quite often, and I imagine that can get annoying to opposing fans, it's also true he draws legitimate contact on almost every drive, and on the majority of his cuts without the ball. My guess is he has had more non-calls against him that should have been calls than he is able to "trick" the refs into calling fouls that aren't there. And as long as that equation remains true, the complaining you talk about is more accurately described as whining.

(Just to make clear, I don't think Virginia has particularly whiny fans compared to other fan bases; I haven't been offended by your posts; and I root for Virginia when they're not playing Duke.)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You are way off base here. Grayson is trying to let the refs know that they missed the 20 or so holds/grabs he absorbed previously that they did not call. He's just like JJ in that manner. JJ had more missed holding calls than any player I know. The so called "Duke hate" comes from success on the court, class room and life after basketball. It's called jealousy, plain and simple. Your green is showing, I would quit while you're not ahead, GoDuke!

And this sort of reaction is what inflames more Duke hatred. The cycle continues, there's no news here.

[jv001]

And this sort of reaction is what inflames more Duke hatred. The cycle continues, there's no news here.

Hey, I didn't do a head snap. :cool: GoDuke!

[akg4y]

And this sort of reaction is what inflames more Duke hatred. The cycle continues, there's no news here.

That sort of reaction from anyone just screams insecurity to me.. This is a basketball discussion, anyone who takes it to a level of 'hatred' or pretty much anything beyond entertainment needs to refocus.

Regardless, I understand there is always bias against good teams, I mentioned that in my original posts. Someone asked if there really was Allen hate, and I tried to answer... some will agree, some will disagree, but the perception outside of Duke fans is basically what I laid out. It wouldnt matter if he scored 6 points a game or if he played for Boston College, but he doesn't so everything gets magnified. All of that coupled with fouls from players like Winslow and Allen like last night just make bring it to national attention and make it worse. ESPN of course doesnt care about anything but money and clicks so if they can blame it on race and make it get 10% more views then they will.

Either way, bring it on on Saturday, time for UVA to get their first win in years at Cameron!

[burnspbesq]

Can we possibly leave George Huguely out of this conversation? That's a whole different level of tragedy, and not remotely comparable to selling calls.

[Wahoo2000]

That sort of reaction from anyone just screams insecurity to me.. This is a basketball discussion, anyone who takes it to a level of 'hatred' or pretty much anything beyond entertainment needs to refocus.

Regardless, I understand there is always bias against good teams, I mentioned that in my original posts. Someone asked if there really was Allen hate, and I tried to answer... some will agree, some will disagree, but the perception outside of Duke fans is basically what I laid out. It wouldnt matter if he scored 6 points a game or if he played for Boston College, but he doesn't so everything gets magnified. All of that coupled with fouls from players like Winslow and Allen like last night just make bring it to national attention and make it worse. ESPN of course doesnt care about anything but money and clicks so if they can blame it on race and make it get 10% more views then they will.

Either way, bring it on on Saturday, time for UVA to get their first win in years at Cameron!

I said it in my last post on this thread and I'll say it again. ANYONE - Duke fan or otherwise - that thinks or says the flopping/chippy issue is more prevalent at Duke than MANY (if not "most") other schools is kidding themselves. And ANYONE that thinks K coaches or encourages this type of play is either a nut or a conspiracy theorist.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Hey, I didn't do a head snap. :cool: GoDuke!

Touche.

I guess to me, I mean, I get that we are fans and will always look at things through our biased glasses. But, when a player comes along and other fan bases dislike him, it's easy to say "you hate him because he's white! You're racist!" Maybe they hate him because he's a jerk, or he's dirty, or he's cocky. (To be clear, I don't think any of our players are jerks, I am just making a point).

But, then, it's complicated further by headlines like the one above.

I don't know. Of course, I don't like the idea of anyone being hated because of their race, but pretending our players are impervious to any legitimate dislike is also absurd. I think I might counteract this whole idea with a more positive thread I have been considering...

[tbyers11]

The Harrison twins from Kentucky were mentioned as a comparison, but I cant remember anyone complaining about those guys repeatedly acting to draw fouls. All teams have players that do it occasionally, but when it becomes a go to move rather than focusing on the game itself is where it is a problem. Watch Allen in the next game, when he drives to the basket... anytime there is a player remotely close to him he exaggerates to try and get the ref to make a call. You can rewatch the last game and see it... the refs fortunately seem to have clued in to it compared to early in the season and are no longer calling it as much, to the point that last night there were even some plays where Allen probably was fouled and they didnt call it.

People complained about the Harrsion twins doing it all the time. Did you frequent Louisville or other SEC boards? Announcers even mentioned it. I remember ESPN discussing it in a story. Allen does sell contact on his drives more than most. However, I think he gets contacted strongly on a lot of his drives and doesn't sell it remotely close to the amount you are suggesting. As a Duke fan and a non-Duke ACC fan I don't think we are going to come to an agreement there.

As for refs not calling things now vs early in the season, I think it is has something to with ACC refs and their familiarity with certain players and their tendencies as you suggest. However, I think it has more to do with the refs simply not calling contact by the defender on drives like they are supposed to (and did early in the season) according to the new guidelines. I'm not alone in this as Mark Gottfried complained about Cat Barber not getting the calls on his drives as he had earlier in the season last week.

Also, I wasn't trying to compare hand-checking/grabbing in the lane and selling contact as comparable within the rules. I was using it as an example of similar confirmation bias. Regardless of whether UVA is doing something wrong or unsportsman-like in this regard, nobody complained about it until they were winning ACC championships

[DukieInKansas]

I said it in my last post on this thread and I'll say it again. ANYONE - Duke fan or otherwise - that thinks or says the flopping/chippy issue is more prevalent at Duke than MANY (if not "most") other schools is kidding themselves. And ANYONE that thinks K coaches or encourages this type of play is either a nut or a conspiracy theorist.

Hey - sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. :D And now that jingle be running through my head for a few hours.

In watching the clip, I actually think the player was going to trip over Grayson's leg whether he moved it or not. But, he did move his leg and I think it was the right call. I hope he learns from it and avoids that reaction in the future. (I know I tripped someone when playing goalie because they kept coming too close in following their shot and I hated having to play goalie anyway. I'm just grateful she caught her balance and didn't hit her head on the "post". It was indoor soccer so the post was the corner where the boards met the net. It could have been very ugly - never did it again.)

[53n206]

Aside from Grayson, I thought the Chase Jeter played a fine game. Made a basket, three rebounds, one foul, one turnover. Not bad for five minutes. But more important, he looked like he understood what he was doing.

[Lid]

Aside from Grayson, I thought the Chase Jeter played a fine game. Made a basket, three rebounds, one foul, one turnover. Not bad for five minutes. But more important, he looked like he understood what he was doing.
I agree -- was impressed with his minutes and thought he was quite functional. Any thoughts on why he didn't sniff the floor in the 2nd half?

[kAzE]

I agree -- was impressed with his minutes and thought he was quite functional. Any thoughts on why he didn't sniff the floor in the 2nd half?

Probably because Marshall Plumlee is playing fantastic basketball and we rarely play both of them at the same time. However, it's a lineup that would be interesting to explore, considering Brandon played 40 minutes. Pretty sure we do no want Brandon to play 40 minutes a game, and the fewer minutes Matt Jones plays at power forward, the better.

It would change our offense quite a bit, having 2 non-shooters on the floor at once. BUT that's what were doing with Amile and MP3, so it's not totally out of the question. The real question is, can Chase learn how to play the 4? Considering how much trouble he's had just learning 1 role, there may be a bit of a learning curve involved. I don't expect us to do anything crazy over the next 3 brutal games.

[cato]

Hey, I didn't do a head snap. :cool: GoDuke!

That we know of. Do you have a link?

[weezie]

Aside from Grayson, I thought the Chase Jeter played a fine game. Made a basket, three rebounds, one foul, one turnover. Not bad for five minutes. But more important, he looked like he understood what he was doing.

Absolutely agree. I was very pleased to see him smile and get some positive crowd recognition.

The Crazies were great last night! And the Crusties definitely contributed.

[Furniture]

I agree -- was impressed with his minutes and thought he was quite functional. Any thoughts on why he didn't sniff the floor in the 2nd half?

I would say simply because the game was very close and K wanted his best men out there.

[Troublemaker]

Yep, Coach K has no issues playing his starters for 35-40 minutes, so it's no surprise that he apparently went with Marshall for 20 minutes in the 2nd half after using Chase to give him some breathers in the first half.

[RPS]

Im sure you've seen this famous vine, two sniper shots to the head in one play!
https://vine.co/v/iumQmDp7637

It's a constant with those who play for Coach K: see here (http://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-flop-gifs-2013-5), for example.

More seriously, there is a regional element to all of this. Here on the Left Coast, claims like Duke getting all the calls are hard to find before tournament time and are much less prevalent even then. I think it's mostly confirmation bias. Thus when the object of the attention isn't a big deal (being 3,000 miles away), few think twice about it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It's a constant with those who play for Coach K: see here (http://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-flop-gifs-2013-5), for example.

More seriously, there is a regional element to all of this. Here on the Left Coast, claims like Duke getting all the calls are hard to find before tournament time and are much less prevalent even then. I think it's mostly confirmation bias. Thus when the object of the attention isn't a big deal (being 3,000 miles away), few think twice about it.

Well, in my life experience, people on the Left Coast don't pay attention to ANY basketball until March.

[burnspbesq]

It's a constant with those who play for Coach K: see here (http://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-flop-gifs-2013-5), for example.

More seriously, there is a regional element to all of this. Here on the Left Coast, claims like Duke getting all the calls are hard to find before tournament time and are much less prevalent even then. I think it's mostly confirmation bias. Thus when the object of the attention isn't a big deal (being 3,000 miles away), few think twice about it.

West of the Rockies, it's BYU that gets all the calls--and boy howdy, do they play chippy (at times bordering on downright dirty).

[shereec]

Sorry to bring this up again, but here's my question - why did the refs go to the monitor in the first place? What I saw from section 1 was Allen get undercut and hit the floor, the Louisville player grabs the ball and starts dribbling toward Allen. I will admit that I didn't see the leg come up off the floor in real time (but I wasn't watching Allen on the floor), but the L'ville guy trips, the ball goes out of bounds and the ref right there calls it out of bounds to Duke. The L'ville player then gets up and goes to the ref and begins to complain. THEN the refs went to the monitor. Did another ref come over to overrule the out of bounds call? Or was the L'ville player allowed to convince the refs to go review?

[azzefkram]

A really nice win for the good guys. I have been underwhelmed with Matt's D all year but he did a heck of a job on Lee especially denying him the ball. He also had a slo-mo drive to the hoop in the second half that was a critical score. Luke had a quiet but effective night. Marshall had a really nice night. That up and under move was pleasantly surprising but they might need to swap out the rim after that jump hook. Chase has looked better these past few games. He still gets lost on D a bit but overall he's moving in the right direction. I thought Derryck did a terrific job on D and I think his offense was better than people are giving him credit for. Louisville is the 2nd rated D for a reason. Senior Marcus Paige coughed up a few turnovers against them a few games ago. Brandon was the man last night. I much prefer Brandon initiating the offence when Derryck is out. Grayson was a tale of 2 halves. The first half he was awesome. The second half was Kentucky Grayson, complete with out of control drives and sloppy passing. His minute and a half stretch starting with the out of control drive preceding the flagrant nearly cost us the game. I think we are fortunate that it didn't. As for the flagrant, it looked pretty intentional through these Duke Blue shaded glasses which makes it dirty play in my book. Play with reckless abandon and all out intensity right up to the line. Just don't cross it. Intentionally tripping a player crosses the line. I'd imagine the coaches conveyed that message.

[killerleft]

Me too! Can someone post a head snap video. Want to be sure I understand this particular gripe!

Check out AMC when they replay West Side Story, and think, "Head, not fingers.", daddy-o.

[killerleft]

Actually we draw fouls among the lowest in the league, but that has to do more with the way we play. Driving to the hoop isnt a huge part of our offensive system.
That misses the point though, VT draws a ton of fouls but the same complaints arent made about their players because they arent trying to earn Oscars and a foul at the same time. If you get fouled, you get fouled, the times you pretend like you've gotten a sniper shot to the head when nobody touched you is what is irritating, especially when it is done nearly every time Allen has the ball.

Who is "we"? Surely you don't mean Duke. We drive to the basket quite often.

[CDu]

Who is "we"? Surely you don't mean Duke. We drive to the basket quite often.

He or she is a UVa fan.

[ChillinDuke]

Hey - sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. :D And now that jingle be running through my head for a few hours.

In watching the clip, I actually think the player was going to trip over Grayson's leg whether he moved it or not. But, he did move his leg and I think it was the right call. I hope he learns from it and avoids that reaction in the future. (I know I tripped someone when playing goalie because they kept coming too close in following their shot and I hated having to play goalie anyway. I'm just grateful she caught her balance and didn't hit her head on the "post". It was indoor soccer so the post was the corner where the boards met the net. It could have been very ugly - never did it again.)

Why does no one ever talk about the flip side of the coin: that the L'Ville player could potentially have intended to trip over Grayson so as to draw a foul on one of our best players (and top scorer)? If that were the case, would the L'Ville player be vilified as some cheap, dirty player? Even though his intention was to "manipulate" the refs into calling a foul?

I don't bring this up because I believe it. I bring it up because it exemplifies gamesmanship. And basketball is a game. So dislike the "sniper shots", leg kicks, flops, and screams all you want, it's part of every player's attempt at gaining an edge to win the game. That's the point of all of this is to win. So yeah, when an opposing player does a leg kick and draws a foul, it's annoying to me - but I understand that it's part of the game and I ultimately blame our player for playing into his gamesmanship. Gotta know that part of the game just like you gotta be able to hit shots.

A "sniper shot" only gets a vine when it doesn't work.

- Chillin

[flyingdutchdevil]

Why does no one ever talk about the flip side of the coin: that the L'Ville player could potentially have intended to trip over Grayson so as to draw a foul on one of our best players (and top scorer)?

I don't bring this up because I believe it. I bring it up because it exemplifies gamesmanship. And basketball is a game. So dislike the "sniper shots", leg kicks, flops, and screams all you want, it's part of every player's attempt at gaining an edge to win the game. That's the point of all of this is to win. So yeah, when an opposing player does a leg kick and draws a foul, it's annoying to me - but I understand that it's part of the game and I ultimately blame our player for playing into his gamesmanship. Gotta know that part of the game just like you gotta be able to hit shots.

A "sniper shot" only gets a vine when it doesn't work.

- Chillin

Are you making two different points, or are you saying that Grayson's trip has a basketball play like leg kicks, neck snaps, flops, etc.

I 100% agree that leg kicks, flops, et al are part of the game. And I do like to see them. If opposing players and refs fall for these plays, power to the actor!

But Grayson's play had nothing to do with basketball; it was a frustration play with no upside. It was so blatant that the refs had no choice but to go to the monitor and call that play what it was: a flagrant 1.

[Ultrarunner]

I actually have almost no disdain for Duke. I was one of the few people rooting for them last night on our boards because a Louisville loss helps UVA more than a Duke loss, to the dismay of everyone else.

As for trying to make this "a level of intelligence" discussion, please dont pat yourself on the back so much. Take a look at the vine linked above and explain the physics of what makes Allen's head snap back twice in the same play with no contact then...

In the first 'snap', it sure looks like #13's upper arm is either making contact with the bridge of Allen's nose or close enough to force a reaction from Allen to avoid getting clobbered. The second is not a 'snap'. He's got a hand in his face (good defense) and he's retreating and moving his head to maintain vision.

On the first occasion, I'd love to see a different angle to confirm your assertion of 'no contact.' I'm not so sure.

[COYS]

In the first 'snap', it sure looks like #13's upper arm is either making contact with the bridge of Allen's nose or close enough to force a reaction from Allen to avoid getting clobbered. The second is not a 'snap'. He's got a hand in his face (good defense) and he's retreating and moving his head to maintain vision.

On the first occasion, I'd love to see a different angle to confirm your assertion of 'no contact.' I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure you'll have much success convincing anyone not wearing Duke Blue of any of this. But I would go even further to say that erratic movements by offensive players are actually just good basketball. Part of what makes Steph Curry so hard to guard is that he doesn't use predictable shooting motions. Sure, he has a repeatable jump shot. But while many guys need to "load up" before shooting a layup or a floater or tend to setup their jump shot by stepping into it with the same foot every time, Curry is far less predictable. Obviously, he's an extreme example. But there are many others. James Harden is a master of herky-jerky drives to the basket that clear space, make him incredibly difficult to guard, and create a much higher chance of contact. In his prime Manu Ginobli was an absolute master at using strange angles to attack the basket to keep the defense off-balance. Dwayne Wade is another guy who, in his prime, would use his incredible leaping ability to jump into the air unexpectedly despite not being squared up and then hang long enough to square and get a shot off. Actually, Grayson is probably closest to a poor-man's Dwayne Wade. Grayson is strong and has good leaping ability, like Wade, and will often figure things out in the air after he leaves the ground. Simply being airborne for so long makes him prone to being knocked down (also, much like Wade). On the drive right before he committed the flagrant 1, he was undercut which was probably the source of his frustrations. It's easy to send someone flying with minimal contact when that person is airborne. Obviously, Grayson is unlikely to reach anything close to Wade at his peak, but there are similarities. In fact, Grayson has gotten progressively more creative with his finishes as the year has gone on. I think he has come a long way since the matchup with UK.

Actually, come to think of it, a large number of the best offensive players in the NBA use unpredictable movements to get their shots. A lot of Kyrie's effectiveness at the rim is his ability to change direction and score with either hand with supreme quickness. His finishes are not predictable at all, which is a big reason why he's so good at it. Draymond Green's game is also supremely unorthodox. He is able to do things from the PF/C spot that most opposing players cannot possibly anticipate.

[killerleft]

He or she is a UVa fan.

Oh. Sorry.

[sagegrouse]

He or she is a UVa fan.


Oh. Sorry.

You can't be blamed for misidentifying a poster whose name reads like a truncated computer-generated password.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'Although, on second thought, "akg4y" might stand for "[monogram] for Yahoos"'

[ChillinDuke]

Are you making two different points, or are you saying that Grayson's trip has a basketball play like leg kicks, neck snaps, flops, etc.

I 100% agree that leg kicks, flops, et al are part of the game. And I do like to see them. If opposing players and refs fall for these plays, power to the actor!

But Grayson's play had nothing to do with basketball; it was a frustration play with no upside. It was so blatant that the refs had no choice but to go to the monitor and call that play what it was: a flagrant 1.

My main point is about gamesmanship and to point out that players make plays (all the time, throughout every game) that aren't explicitly basketball plays (shooting, passing, dribbling, etc). There are games within the game, and there is a whole psychology to it all. To ignore that psychological part or point to it as some sort of negative aspect of a player's game is to either not understand basketball (or many forms of competition) or pine for it to be something it's not. I'm further thinking through my point by saying, in theory, a player could fall and lose control of their legs and that could be taken advantage of by an opposing player trying to dribble. In such a theoretical, I envision many would feel that to be "savvy" move by the opposing player to take advantage of the falling player's vulnerable position.

I'll offer a more familiar example. A player is boxed in a corner, well defended, and he jump/turns and throws the ball off of a defending player. Do you consider that a great play? I certainly would not consider it a "basketball play" in the sense of shooting, passing, dribbling, fundamentals. It's essentially taking advantage of a rule (or non-rule in the reverse perspective) that if the ball goes out of bounds off an opposing player, you keep the ball. Such a play annoys me, because the offensive player receives a benefit for a play that was mainly good defense taking advantage of bad offensive positioning. However, albeit annoying (to me), it's a rule and I appreciate that said player was smart enough to use his noggin in the heat of the moment and benefit his team. I don't see much difference between this example and a neck snap. They annoy me - but they are parts of the game. You can't easily change the rule that an out of bounds ball (intentional or not) goes to the opposing team. And you can't easily require players to only move in certain ways on the court.

Finally, and this is only partially related to my main point, I didn't find Grayson's actions to be particularly off-putting. I thought they were an attempt (albeit a failed one) at psychology. By falling and perhaps putting a bit more leg kick into your fall, you could potentially disrupt a fast break and/or cause a turnover. Now, you can obviously cause injury, but a myriad of things can cause injury on a basketball court (and in sports in general) so extrapolating that Grayson's move was meant solely to put an opposing player into harm's way seems overblowing it or being too strict in observation. While this is only my view, Grayson's form was fair but substance was lacking and worthy of a flagrant 1. He got what he deserved, but I didn't disagree with his intent and frankly would have attempted something similar had I been on the court/floor as he was.

- Chillin

[Steven43]

While he carried us down the stretch, I think Ingram, per CDu's PF comment, was huge the entire game. He was the primary ballhandler for nearly the entire time he was on the court. He made smart decisions, played solid D, rebounded, on wanted the ball every time down the stretch getting to the line over and over. What a performance, one I hope we'll keep seeing.

Brandon Ingram has mad game. This guy is a true inside-outside threat at a level I'm not sure Duke has ever had. Jabari, Justise, Kyle, Grant, Danny, Grayson, Kyrie, and many other Duke greats were all adept at scoring both inside and out, to varying degrees, of course. However, I don't know if any Duke player was as good in each area as Brandon.

It boggles the mind to think about how good he would be by tournament time of his senior year if he were to stay for all four years. And every game that goes by I get more and more sad thinking about the fact that he's going to leave Duke at the end of this, his freshman season. All Duke fans everywhere should enjoy and appreciate every single moment we have left of Brandon Ingram in a Duke uniform.

[killerleft]

Are you making two different points, or are you saying that Grayson's trip has a basketball play like leg kicks, neck snaps, flops, etc.

I 100% agree that leg kicks, flops, et al are part of the game. And I do like to see them. If opposing players and refs fall for these plays, power to the actor!

But Grayson's play had nothing to do with basketball; it was a frustration play with no upside. It was so blatant that the refs had no choice but to go to the monitor and call that play what it was: a flagrant 1.

Well, let's not get carried away. It was an intentional foul. The foul the guy made against Grayson had far greater chance to injure him. Falling down and going boom on the hardwood happens all the time.

Obvious, sure. But I think using the word blatant, which is almost always used with intent to make something seem evil or lawless, makes it sound like you're ESPN-ing Grayson, almost with a Church Lady leer. Same with flagrant. It was obvious and conspicuous, but not shameless, barefaced, or brazen (thank you Google and Merriam-Webster).

Or did you actually find Grayson's foul to be evilly concocted and therefore worthy of all the hoopla that ESPN calls journalism?

Not trying to be nitpicky, I just can't help it!:o:)

[Steven43]

If all of our players could play with the intensity of the Louisville strength and conditioning coach, we'd be undefeated, even without Amile. I'd be very scared to disappoint that dude.

That guy makes me uncomfortable just watching him on a video replay. I've never seen anyone quite like him. He was making comments the ENTIRE time. It makes you wonder what exactly he is saying. I sincerely hope he is not causing himself a harmful amount of stress. Seriously.

[Ichabod Drain]

That guy makes me uncomfortable just watching him on a video replay. I've never seen anyone quite like him. He was making comments the ENTIRE time. It makes you wonder what exactly he is saying. I sincerely hope he is not causing himself a harmful amount of stress. Seriously.

Yea it made me really uncomfortable watching him. There was brief period where they did a side by side and just showed him during the game and it lingered for a whole possession. In my mind I was pleading with ESPN to just go back to the game in full screen.

Also, do S&C coaches usually travel with the team? Maybe they do but I found that pretty unusual.

[kAzE]

Yea it made me really uncomfortable watching him. There was brief period where they did a side by side and just showed him during the game and it lingered for a whole possession. In my mind I was pleading with ESPN to just go back to the game in full screen.

Also, do S&C coaches usually travel with the team? Maybe they do but I found that pretty unusual.

SUPER awkward . . .

[devildeac]

That guy makes me uncomfortable just watching him on a video replay. I've never seen anyone quite like him. He was making comments the ENTIRE time. It makes you wonder what exactly he is saying. I sincerely hope he is not causing himself a harmful amount of stress. Seriously.


Yea it made me really uncomfortable watching him. There was brief period where they did a side by side and just showed him during the game and it lingered for a whole possession. In my mind I was pleading with ESPN to just go back to the game in full screen.

Also, do S&C coaches usually travel with the team? Maybe they do but I found that pretty unusual.

Yea, that guy was even more frightening than Frank Martin. :rolleyes:

[akg4y]

You can't be blamed for misidentifying a poster whose name reads like a truncated computer-generated password.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'Although, on second thought, "akg4y" might stand for "[monogram] for Yahoos"'

Way back when the internet tubes were just getting started, in an era where you searched the local college network for other people's computers who had shared MP3s, when Doom 2 was played multiplayer, but only amongst the LAN of your own dorm building... I was assigned a username at UVA. That username was a collection of initials, letters, and numbers. My preferred username on forums was taken here, so I default to my backup rather than create yet another username.

[wilson]

...My preferred username on forums was taken here, so I default to my backup rather than create yet another username.Everybody wants to be wilson.

[Indoor66]

That guy makes me uncomfortable just watching him on a video replay. I've never seen anyone quite like him. He was making comments the ENTIRE time. It makes you wonder what exactly he is saying. I sincerely hope he is not causing himself a harmful amount of stress. Seriously.

Made me wonder if he was taking too much of what the unCheat players take after their psyche tests to get ADD and/or LD status!

[elvis14]

Way back when the internet tubes were just getting started, in an era where you searched the local college network for other people's computers who had shared MP3s, when Doom 2 was played multiplayer, but only amongst the LAN of your own dorm building... I was assigned a username at UVA. That username was a collection of initials, letters, and numbers. My preferred username on forums was taken here, so I default to my backup rather than create yet another username.

akg4y, I just wanted to drop a quick note and say thanks for sharing your observations and opinions on this thread. You had to know that some of those weren't going to be popular with this crowd (they weren't) but I respect that you posted anyway and hope you continue to do so.

Good luck to UVa....except for Saturday :-)

[Doria]

akg4y, I just wanted to drop a quick note and say thanks for sharing your observations and opinions on this thread. You had to know that some of those weren't going to be popular with this crowd (they weren't) but I respect that you posted anyway and hope you continue to do so.

Good luck to UVa...except for Saturday :-)

Yeah, also thanks to Wahoo2000. You both kept calm in a discussion that could've gotten out of hand. Friendly disagreement should be fine on these forums, as long as we can all agree that BC's loss last night to UNC was heartbreaking.

[Indoor66]

Yeah, also thanks to Wahoo2000. You both kept calm in a discussion that could've gotten out of hand. Friendly disagreement should be fine on these forums, as long as we can all agree that BC's loss last night to UNC was heartbreaking.

Absolutely. BC deserved to win and unCheat ALWAYS deserves to lose.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Way back when the internet tubes were just getting started, in an era where you searched the local college network for other people's computers who had shared MP3s, when Doom 2 was played multiplayer, but only amongst the LAN of your own dorm building... I was assigned a username at UVA. That username was a collection of initials, letters, and numbers. My preferred username on forums was taken here, so I default to my backup rather than create yet another username.

This response is too awesome. UVA > DBR on this one.

[akg4y]

akg4y, I just wanted to drop a quick note and say thanks for sharing your observations and opinions on this thread. You had to know that some of those weren't going to be popular with this crowd (they weren't) but I respect that you posted anyway and hope you continue to do so.

Good luck to UVa...except for Saturday :-)


Thanks you too! Like I said, I enjoy these forums because the discussions here are much better than the vast majority of ACC fan forums... For the most part you guys are well grounded, fair, and really focus on the game itself rather than the nitpicky stuff.

I just read on our forums that the last time we won at Cameron was 1995 when Duke had the "Coach K's back" year, and prior to that it was 1983. Sheesh. Especially bad considering we played one game a year there until recently.

[akg4y]

Everybody wants to be wilson.

Nicely done, sir.

[brevity]

Who is "we"? Surely you don't mean Duke. We drive to the basket quite often.


He or she is a UVa fan.

It might be helpful if the UVA fans uploaded an image for their avatar. This way the rest of us will understand their point of reference when they make a post.

Avatar images must be 100x100 pixels. An image search for "UVA logo" gave me way too many options, but "UVA cake" narrowed it down nicely. (What? I'm hungry.) Here are a few:

5930 5931 5932

The "V" is for visually appetizing. I need a snack now.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The "V" is for visually appetizing. I need a snack now.

You are partial to the "V" as it appears in the center of your name.

There are jokes here I won't touch. But I think themed food avatars would be a fun off season exercise.

[cato]

But I think themed food avatars would be a fun off season exercise.

One step ahead of you

[devildeac]

You are partial to the "V" as it appears in the center of your name.

There are jokes here I won't touch. But I think themed food avatars would be a fun off season exercise.

Sheesh. I think I've had mine for a couple years now :o . :rolleyes:

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Or did you actually find Grayson's foul to be evilly concocted and therefore worthy of all the hoopla that ESPN calls journalism?


It was not worse than the Laettner stomp in Philadelphia.

[Wahoo2000]

It might be helpful if the UVA fans uploaded an image for their avatar. This way the rest of us will understand their point of reference when they make a post.

Avatar images must be 100x100 pixels. An image search for "UVA logo" gave me way too many options, but "UVA cake" narrowed it down nicely. (What? I'm hungry.) Here are a few:

5930 5931 5932

The "V" is for visually appetizing. I need a snack now.

Well, you asked for it. Avatar installed. This is the one I use on almost every site I'm registered with, so the fact that it's Singletary right after he hit the game winner over McRoberts and Nelson in 07 when we were unranked and you guys were #8 shouldn't be taken with any offense.

And if by some chance you're not recalling the exact moment (and enjoy self flagellation), please feel free to click the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo4tgWYRpPg

[Wahoo2000]

One step ahead of you

I live in san diego, cato - that julian pie avatar has me ready to escape the office early and head to the nearest albertsons....... mmmmmmm.

[lotusland]

I live in san diego, cato - that julian pie avatar has me ready to escape the office early and head to the nearest albertsons... mmmmmmm.

I don't have an avatar myself so I can only offer our Wahoo friends a good warmup song for teevee timeouts and such from the low country 's own Shovels and Rope
"There's something to be learned here
Tho it may seem a little insincere
Like a cruel clown grinning ear to ear
You're a psycho killer I'm a Cavalier"
http://youtu.be/h4KPmhneGQU