WBB: Duke at Miami, Feb 7, 1 pm, RSN

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Preview http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1602061-preview-duke-at-miami.php

[DukePA]

Let's go Duke! Let's have a solid performance on both ends of the court and build on our strengths.

[killerleft]

Big game. Win at the U and we're moving back toward the top o' the league with a very young team.

[Bob Green]

End of 1st Quarter: Miami 15, Duke 9. We are pretty ugly on offense.

[wandalee]

We are definitely missing Azura right now. We're taking some decent shots, but they just aren't falling.

[uh_no]

holy cow....11 in the first half???

[Bob Green]

Halftime: Miami 27, Duke 11. We made zero field goals in the 2nd Quarter. The team is struggling mightily to put the ball through the hoop.

[killerleft]

We score 11, 2 free throws is it for the second quarter, in the first half. Down 27-11.

[buddy]

zero field goals in the second period. Two whole points. I have seen better CYO games.

[killerleft]

Once we got away from the tractor offense, that was it.:)

[DU82]

That was one of the ugliest half I've seen. Both teams are playing good defense, but at least Miami has hit a few shots and free throws. We scored two free throws in the second quarter, while missing, I believe, four.

No offensive flow, and when passes find somebody in a good position, we miss the shot. Miami is pressing to half court, and then packing it in, although following Rebecca so she can't get off a shot. The few screens set haven't been effective. Not a lot to change on D, we need to drive (not that driving to the basket has drawn many fouls) and hit the easy shots when they're able to get one.

[CameronBlue]

The first half was simply embarrassing. The offense is chaotic with no apparent structure or strategy. I feel badly for the players they deserve better, but it's not all the coach. The number of layups Duke has missed is enough to scald your retinas. How can I unsee what I have seen? Tragic.

[killerleft]

Duke scores 25 in 3rd qtr., trails 44-36.

[DU82]

And a 25 point third quarter cuts the Miami lead to eight. Oderah picked up her fourth foul early, sat but came back for the last five minutes or so, and is scoring inside. Better drives and made baskets. Completely different team, it seems.

[Bob Green]

End of 3rd Quarter: Miami 44, Duke 36. The offense finally started clicking with 25 3rd Quarter points. We need to keep it up and get more stops. The 4th Quarter should be exciting.

[killerleft]

The first half was simply embarrassing. The offense is chaotic with no apparent structure or strategy. I feel badly for the players they deserve better, but it's not all the coach. The number of layups Duke has missed is enough to scald your retinas. How can I unsee what I have seen? Tragic.

I didn't see anything bad out there attributable to the coach. What did you see? We missed shots, most good, some bad, many lay-ups.

[devildeac]

Once we got away from the tractor offense, that was it.:)

I think we need one (or more) of these:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gMC7osLO5g

[killerleft]

I think we need one (or more) of these:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gMC7osLO5g

Yep:) Is that a Williams model, there?

[devildeac]

Yep:) Is that a Williams model, there?

A. Beard model ;) .

[Bob Green]

Final score: Miami 61, Duke 53. We couldn't overcome the horrendous 2nd Quarter performance.

[killerleft]

Spirited Duke rally in the second half, but crucial plays by Miami highlighted by offensive rebounding and unfortunate (for us) end-of-clock conversions leave us on the short side of a 61-53 score. 11 points in the first half, 42 in the second, sheesh!

[AIM4excellence]

I didn't see anything bad out there attributable to the coach. What did you see? We missed shots, most good, some bad, many lay-ups.

The problem is there was nothing GOOD attributable to the coach. Zero field goals for an entire quarter signals a REALLY BAD offense. Let's not forget this McCallie quote "Offense is over-rated." Even a bunch of McD AA's can be affected by playing in a really bad scheme.

[DukePA]

It was a tough loss for Duke. There is no way to win when point-blank shots are missed. Work on your follow through, Duke. Next play.

[aswewere]

Box http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400842629

There were a lot of missed shots but just about all were contested, when you have a good offensive system in place it gives a few open looks.
I also watched the Notre Dame Lousville game today, got to see 5 out, 4 out, high / lows, lots of screens and as our coach K demands good spacing.
Three of our four post today liked the quickness to play a active zone or man. Lots of good challenges ahead for our program in all areas.

[Bob Green]

There were a lot of missed shots but just about all were contested, when you have a good offensive system in place it gives a few open looks.

I watched the game and Duke missed multiple chippies right at the basket. You can blame that on tired legs perhaps but not the system. The team got open looks and missed repeatedly. In the end, the players have to put the ball through the hoop.

[aswewere]

I watched the game and Duke missed multiple chippies right at the basket. You can blame that on tired legs perhaps but not the system. The team got open looks and missed repeatedly. In the end, the players have to put the ball through the hoop.

Its always the players fault, good coaching could not help this team or her previous eight.

[CameronBlue]

I didn't see anything bad out there attributable to the coach. What did you see? We missed shots, most good, some bad, many lay-ups.

You mean aside from the final score? Whew, you almost had me there.

Or being out rebounded by a team whose starters are on average 3 inches shorter than Duke's?
Or shooting 19% in the first half, 28% for the game?
Or shooting 20% from 3?
8 assists? Okay you have to make some baskets to get the assist but both of those stats improve when you put players in positions that take advantage of their strengths.
Everyone's responsible including the coach which was the point of the post. When players miss layups the argument that it's all the coach's fault just doesn't hold water.

However I certainly won't walk away from what I stated explicitly either, there appears to be little structure to the offense beyond the odd two-man sets that seem to develop haphazardly and unpredictably. Shots, missed or otherwise, aren't random events independent of the ball movement that precedes them, pardon the trifling point of scholarship. If you want me to tell you what sort of offense Duke should be running I can't. But the flaws in Duke's offense are not nuances only understood by the idiot savants and ascetically sensitive among us. Duke is not well-schooled in the fundamentals. Duke blocks out poorly. Duke's spacing is frequently bad which inhibits crisp passing and impedes ball reversal. Duke does not ball screen enough to get its best shooters, not just open shots, but shots in rhythm. In desperation Duke's better players take shots not suited to their strengths and end up looking woefully inept. I have no doubt that Coach P understands the game but it's my contention that whatever happens in practice or in the locker room, whatever strategy the coaches devise, Duke seems unable to execute at game speed. This is a constant IMO, a trademark of Coach P's tenure.

I had truly wanted to avoid the Coach P bash fest. I detest the atmosphere it has created on this board. I feel that it has grown so tiresome that it has made P defenders of posters here who otherwise wouldn't comment (but this is DBR and an easy target is just so tempting and delicious!) But I'm not willing to give tacit agreement to those who see this result as being an off-night, a bad shooting night. I think Duke's problems are deeper than that and, at least for this game, attributable to poor game preparation. Forget comparisons to past coaches, the product on the floor this afternoon in Miami was just bad and the coach deserves a healthy measure of the blame.

[killerleft]

The problem is there was nothing GOOD attributable to the coach. Zero field goals for an entire quarter signals a REALLY BAD offense. Let's not forget this McCallie quote "Offense is over-rated." Even a bunch of McD AA's can be affected by playing in a really bad scheme.

Even if that scheme got them open shots. Well, that explains that.

[killerleft]

You mean aside from the final score? Whew, you almost had me there.

Or being out rebounded by a team whose starters are on average 3 inches shorter than Duke's?
Or shooting 19% in the first half, 28% for the game?
Or shooting 20% from 3?
8 assists? Okay you have to make some baskets to get the assist but both of those stats improve when you put players in positions that take advantage of their strengths.
Everyone's responsible including the coach which was the point of the post. When players miss layups the argument that it's all the coach's fault just doesn't hold water.

However I certainly won't walk away from what I stated explicitly either, there appears to be little structure to the offense beyond the odd two-man sets that seem to develop haphazardly and unpredictably. Shots, missed or otherwise, aren't random events independent of the ball movement that precedes them, pardon the trifling point of scholarship. If you want me to tell you what sort of offense Duke should be running I can't. But the flaws in Duke's offense are not nuances only understood by the idiot savants and ascetically sensitive among us. Duke is not well-schooled in the fundamentals. Duke blocks out poorly. Duke's spacing is frequently bad which inhibits crisp passing and impedes ball reversal. Duke does not ball screen enough to get its best shooters, not just open shots, but shots in rhythm. In desperation Duke's better players take shots not suited to their strengths and end up looking woefully inept. I have no doubt that Coach P understands the game but it's my contention that whatever happens in practice or in the locker room, whatever strategy the coaches devise, Duke seems unable to execute at game speed. This is a constant IMO, a trademark of Coach P's tenure.

I had truly wanted to avoid the Coach P bash fest. I detest the atmosphere it has created on this board. I feel that it has grown so tiresome that it has made P defenders of posters here who otherwise wouldn't comment (but this is DBR and an easy target is just so tempting and delicious!) But I'm not willing to give tacit agreement to those who see this result as being an off-night, a bad shooting night. I think Duke's problems are deeper than that and, at least for this game, attributable to poor game preparation. Forget comparisons to past coaches, the product on the floor this afternoon in Miami was just bad and the coach deserves a healthy measure of the blame.

We had fine shots, point-blank ones and missed. Spacing comes from having no real point guard. Players must assist others just to pass the ball. This is why we end up taking bad shots at times, and why we don't execute at game speed. Our star player was missing. We're painfully young, and sometimes it shows. We have a couple players who make the same boneheaded mistakes time after time. I think the coaches have mentioned this, but perhaps not. We ballscreen enough, just not well. What else is there to do out there without trying a screen or two now and then?

They aren't a product, they're people.

[killerleft]

Its always the players fault, good coaching could not help this team or her previous eight.

Perhaps some positive vibes from the fans would help both the coach and team. I'm kidding!;) Well, not really.

[aswewere]

Perhaps some positive vibes from the fans would help both the coach and team. I'm kidding!;) Well, not really.

The team and fans will certainly respond when her million dollar salary shows up in Cameron.


Spacing comes from having no real point guard. You must have missed all of her other games, there have been no adjustments.

[stillcrazie]

When is Stevens expected back? How bad is her injury? She is our MVP.

[aswewere]

When is Stevens expected back? How bad is her injury? She is our MVP.



Day to day http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/02/stevens-to-miss-second-straight-game

[AIM4excellence]

You mean aside from the final score? Whew, you almost had me there.

Or being out rebounded by a team whose starters are on average 3 inches shorter than Duke's?
Or shooting 19% in the first half, 28% for the game?
Or shooting 20% from 3?
8 assists? Okay you have to make some baskets to get the assist but both of those stats improve when you put players in positions that take advantage of their strengths.
Everyone's responsible including the coach which was the point of the post. When players miss layups the argument that it's all the coach's fault just doesn't hold water.

However I certainly won't walk away from what I stated explicitly either, there appears to be little structure to the offense beyond the odd two-man sets that seem to develop haphazardly and unpredictably. Shots, missed or otherwise, aren't random events independent of the ball movement that precedes them, pardon the trifling point of scholarship. If you want me to tell you what sort of offense Duke should be running I can't. But the flaws in Duke's offense are not nuances only understood by the idiot savants and ascetically sensitive among us. Duke is not well-schooled in the fundamentals. Duke blocks out poorly. Duke's spacing is frequently bad which inhibits crisp passing and impedes ball reversal. Duke does not ball screen enough to get its best shooters, not just open shots, but shots in rhythm. In desperation Duke's better players take shots not suited to their strengths and end up looking woefully inept. I have no doubt that Coach P understands the game but it's my contention that whatever happens in practice or in the locker room, whatever strategy the coaches devise, Duke seems unable to execute at game speed. This is a constant IMO, a trademark of Coach P's tenure.

I had truly wanted to avoid the Coach P bash fest. I detest the atmosphere it has created on this board. I feel that it has grown so tiresome that it has made P defenders of posters here who otherwise wouldn't comment (but this is DBR and an easy target is just so tempting and delicious!) But I'm not willing to give tacit agreement to those who see this result as being an off-night, a bad shooting night. I think Duke's problems are deeper than that and, at least for this game, attributable to poor game preparation. Forget comparisons to past coaches, the product on the floor this afternoon in Miami was just bad and the coach deserves a healthy measure of the blame.

Thank you CameronBlue for stating this more eloquently than I have been able to do. Lord knows I've tried to make this point - that players are not getting the ball where they can score in rhythm or where they naturally excel at scoring.

[AIM4excellence]

We had fine shots, point-blank ones and missed. Spacing comes from having no real point guard. Players must assist others just to pass the ball. This is why we end up taking bad shots at times, and why we don't execute at game speed. Our star player was missing. We're painfully young, and sometimes it shows. We have a couple players who make the same boneheaded mistakes time after time. I think the coaches have mentioned this, but perhaps not. We ballscreen enough, just not well. What else is there to do out there without trying a screen or two now and then?

They aren't a product, they're people.

We actually have not 1, but TWO great point guards! Angela has extensive international play and was named MVP of an international tournament that the USA team won. Kyra is a top 10 recruit. Both have shown top notch talent at times but both seem held back by a system that does not take the best advantage of their skills. Watch how Spain uses Angela and you'll understand what I mean.

[dudog84]

As stated so eloquently on another board, none of us over here know what we're talking about, but I'll post some observations anyways.

I find it hard to believe that we changed the offense during halftime. So the same offense that scored 2 points in the second quarter (yeah, that was ugly) scored 25 points in the third. So maybe execution has something to do with it.

Furthermore, dwhoops.com counted 12 missed layups. So it seems the offense is getting the ball in a good place to score. Why are they being missed? Do the girls need eye check-ups? Is there a lot of bumping going on that's not being called? Does anyone have a serious answer?

This young team is growing up before our eyes, and while it's painful sometimes I'm enjoying it. Growing up is sometimes painful. They lost their best player just a few days before, and went on the road (the longest ACC road trip, BTW) against the #16 team in the country and would have won except for one really bad quarter. It's hard to replace Azura's 19 points and 9 rebounds. But turnovers are coming down. Miami tried to press and our freshmen guards handled it much better than earlier in the season. That's progress, and that's what I expect from a team. I think maybe Kyra has made the biggest leap. Angela and Becca seem to be building some special chemistry. Azura is going to be something to watch for the next 2 years. And all of our girls seem to be good kids and are playing hard. As long as the players like the coach, I really don't care what a few fans with clearly personal issues with the coach think. I doubt the AD does either.

[killerleft]

We actually have not 1, but TWO great point guards! Angela has extensive international play and was named MVP of an international tournament that the USA team won. Kyra is a top 10 recruit. Both have shown top notch talent at times but both seem held back by a system that does not take the best advantage of their skills. Watch how Spain uses Angela and you'll understand what I mean.

You're really getting carried away here. Coach P, the only person who can hold Angela Salvadores to less than 40 points a game? That was a joke. Expecting Angela to score 40 points a game would be like blaming the coach for everything that goes wrong during a game.:) I understand that Angela has had nagging injuries. Perhaps we'll see her at her best soon. No one doubts her potential. Kyra has shown great promise as well. Turnovers, as noted by dudog84 above, have not been as numerous lately. A great trend, if we can continue it.

I would characterize Lindsey Harding as a great point guard. But even she had a learning curve that began with her freshman year. Whatever system we use is dependent on way less turnovers than we now commit. Not one player on the Duke team is even close to being blameless in this regard.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Furthermore, dwhoops.com counted 12 missed layups. So it seems the offense is getting the ball in a good place to score. Why are they being missed? Do the girls need eye check-ups? Is there a lot of bumping going on that's not being called? Does anyone have a serious answer?

This has been my only real maddening source of frustration for years. Our women, year after year after year, continuously miss point blank shots. I don't understand how they don't make this fundamental need a point of practice, and if they do, why they continue to fail so miserably at it. Maybe the guys would too, if they couldn't dunk it, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence with other teams as I have with Duke. It doesn't seem to be a universal phenomenon with women's basketball; if it were, it might be less frustrating.

[aswewere]

This has been my only real maddening source of frustration for years. Our women, year after year after year, continuously miss point blank shots. I don't understand how they don't make this fundamental need a point of practice, and if they do, why they continue to fail so miserably at it. Maybe the guys would too, if they couldn't dunk it, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence with other teams as I have with Duke. It doesn't seem to be a universal phenomenon with women's basketball; if it were, it might be less frustrating.



"Offense is over-rated." When your coach has this mind set and the players tell you they spend most of there practice time on defense [ WELL ]. I suggested
to our AD years ago to hire or get a good offensive assistant for her. My way or the highway stubbornness does not belong in coaching.

[burnspbesq]

My way or the highway stubbornness does not belong in coaching.

There may be a few other places where it doesn't belong.

Since it seems to have escaped notice here, I will note that Oderah had a career-high 18 on Sunday (6-12 FG, 6-9 FT). As she seemingly always does, she missed her fair share of layups, but she worked hard to get good position on the block, and did a fantastic job of sealing off her defender. She also did a very nice job of playing through foul trouble. Hopefully she can build on this performance.

[Kedsy]

This has been my only real maddening source of frustration for years. Our women, year after year after year, continuously miss point blank shots. I don't understand how they don't make this fundamental need a point of practice, and if they do, why they continue to fail so miserably at it. Maybe the guys would too, if they couldn't dunk it, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence with other teams as I have with Duke. It doesn't seem to be a universal phenomenon with women's basketball; if it were, it might be less frustrating.

ANECDOTAL: As a short-ish player, I miss an awful lot of layups. There always seems to be someone coming at you, and if you take your eye off the rim for even an instant to see where the defenders are, you miss.

VAGUE RECOLLECTION: I remember our teams under Coach G missing a lot of layups too. My guess is this doesn't really have to do with Coach P's decisions on what to practice.

COMPARISON: In the men's game, I believe the average shooting percentage at the rim (including dunks and transition opportunities) is just over 60%. I don't have data for the women, but taking away dunks, you'd think the women in general should probably shoot around 50%, or even less, wouldn't you?

DATA POINTS: Stats from our three most recent games:
Against Miami, Duke shot 40% on layups (8 makes, 12 misses); Miami shot 44% on layups (7 makes, 9 misses).
Against Virginia, Duke shot 65% on layups (13 makes, 7 misses); Virginia shot 44% on layups (8 makes, 10 misses).
Against Notre Dame, Duke shot 46% on layups (11 makes, 13 misses); Notre Dame shot 52% on layups (11 makes, 10 misses).

Three game totals:
Duke: 32 makes, 32 misses; 50%
Opponents: 26 makes, 29 misses; 47.2%

Yeah, it's only three data points, but I think it might be a universal women's basketball thing. It didn't really seem like our recent opponents missed so many layups, did it? My guess is we notice Duke's misses more. I'd also note that in the three games, Duke attempted 16% more layups than our opponents (64 to 55). If we take more, we're bound to miss more, right?


"Offense is over-rated." When your coach has this mind set and the players tell you they spend most of there practice time on defense [ WELL ]. I suggested
to our AD years ago to hire or get a good offensive assistant for her. My way or the highway stubbornness does not belong in coaching.

Does "my way or the highway stubbornness" belong in internet posting?

If your point relies so heavily on 7-year old quotes, maybe you need to get a new point.

[killerleft]

"Offense is over-rated." When your coach has this mind set and the players tell you they spend most of there practice time on defense [ WELL ]. I suggested
to our AD years ago to hire or get a good offensive assistant for her. My way or the highway stubbornness does not belong in coaching.

Perhaps Mr. White has stubbornly decided to ignore your advice. I prefer my opinion on the matter to yours, but if Kevin White needs my advice he isn't the great AD I think he is.:)

[nocilla]

VAGUE RECOLLECTION: I remember our teams under Coach G missing a lot of layups too. My guess is this doesn't really have to do with Coach P's decisions on what to practice.



I was about to point this out. I remember people complaining about missed layups long before Coach P came aboard.

[aswewere]

Perhaps Mr. White has stubbornly decided to ignore your advice. I prefer my opinion on the matter to yours, but if Kevin White needs my advice he isn't the great AD I think he is.:)

Some people just don't see the big picture, its the four million dollar it would take to pack her up right now calling the shots.

[CameronBornAndBred]

ANECDOTAL: As a short-ish player, I miss an awful lot of layups. There always seems to be someone coming at you, and if you take your eye off the rim for even an instant to see where the defenders are, you miss.

Totally agree, which is why I added the notation about "if the guys couldn't dunk". Although, I have seen so many missed uncontested layups that it is truly maddening. If missing a layup were a drinking game, I'd be toast by halftime.

VAGUE RECOLLECTION: I remember our teams under Coach G missing a lot of layups too. My guess is this doesn't really have to do with Coach P's decisions on what to practice.
Once again, I totally agree. Maybe it is Cameron. ;) I never called out Coach P for this. (I figured aswewere would pick up on it though for his dead horse bat, though.)

[killerleft]

Some people just don't see the big picture, its the four million dollar it would take to pack her up right now calling the shots.

That's your story and you're sticking to it. I don't even know what salary she commands, but it would take $200,000 per year for me to put with you for eight years.:D Only THEN would Kevin and I start talking salary. Maybe he'd throw in a tractor?:p

[dudog84]

Some people just don't see the big picture, its the four million dollar it would take to pack her up right now calling the shots.

This is the umpteenth time you've mentioned her salary. Can we keep the jealousy of what other people make off the board?

[dudog84]

Kedsy, can you just stop it now with the logic and stats? Don't you know the eye (or is it I) test is much more important?

[Kedsy]

Although, I have seen so many missed uncontested layups that it is truly maddening. If missing a layup were a drinking game, I'd be toast by halftime.

But have you noticed that the opponents miss as many bunnies as we do? I admit that I hadn't -- Duke's missed layups strike me much more forcefully than the other team's.

I only went through the most recent three games, but my bet is no matter how far I went back the numbers would be similar.

[aswewere]

This is the umpteenth time you've mentioned her salary. Can we keep the jealousy of what other people make off the board?


Salary in this old world always comes into play when you are not producing, or worth more than you are paid. What have we received for our $$$$$
a lot of good assistants, players and fans finding out our team is not there wonderful dream but a nightmare. Taking our elite program down the drain
has put most fans not looking for more excuses from a coach or her super packs. Lets hear from her for once some accountability that the buck stops
here and she is going to do whatever it takes to turn this mess around.

[devilseven]

Some people just don't see the big picture, its the four million dollar it would take to pack her up right now calling the shots.

So, why don't you and the other negative Nancys just raise the four million and send her on her way? That should not be difficult since according to you, there are thousands of others who want Coach P gone.

[aswewere]

That's your story and you're sticking to it. I don't even know what salary she commands, but it would take $200,000 per year for me to put with you for eight years.:D Only THEN would Kevin and I start talking salary. Maybe he'd throw in a tractor?:p

We already have her famous tractor. Since she was hired to take us to the next level [ they forgot to tell her up or down ] up seems a little more
than you think she can achieve. So my question to you is where would you place her celling, so would all no she is max out ??

[DukieInKansas]

Don't you think the AD and coaching staff evaluate the program at least annually, if not continuously? The question was raised much earlier in this discussion, if not Coach P, then who is out there? I don't think I've ever seen any suggestions.

Since I can't seem to get a description of the tractor offense, do you think could borrow the tractor portion? I'd love to put in a bigger garden this summer and if I can work the green space out back at night, I might be able to get the ground ready by planting time. I'm sure the HOA won't mind. :D

[aswewere]

Don't you think the AD and coaching staff evaluate the program at least annually, if not continuously? The question was raised much earlier in this discussion, if not Coach P, then who is out there? I don't think I've ever seen any suggestions.

Since I can't seem to get a description of the tractor offense, do you think could borrow the tractor portion? I'd love to put in a bigger garden this summer and if I can work the green space out back at night, I might be able to get the ground ready by planting time. I'm sure the HOA won't mind. :D

You don't want this one it just plows up the wrong things here is a message from one.


From the bottom of my heart, I am overwhelmed by all the love and support I've received. The best decision I ever made was to become a Blue Devil. The kindness and caring that has been extended to me is just a small reminder of how wonderful the Duke family truly is...thank you!

Lauren Rice

DWB Class of 2000