unc Athletics Scandal: Connecting the Dots...

[PackMan97]

@bluedevilicous is connecting the dots.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaYkbSHVIAAC49V.png

[moonpie23]

wow...got to hand it to @bdl...


he's diggin...

[wsb3]

wow...got to hand it to @bdl...


he's diggin...

I'll buy him a shovel. :)

[OldPhiKap]

@bluedevilicous is connecting the dots.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaYkbSHVIAAC49V.png

I know we keep saying the Death Penalty won't happen. And I don't think it will.

But how is it not the most appropriate punishment for the scope, breadth and audacity of their perversion of higher education?

Seriously. It just makes you ill.

[moonpie23]

i was thinking about this last night......we are all KIND of assuming that judgement day hasn't come to UNC yet, but, wouldn't it really be the hammer of thor, if the punishment has already been handed down INCLUDING a post ban THIS YEAR (along with all of our other hopes and dreams)?


could the NCAA bring down a more decisive strike than that? if they want to show that they aren't str8 BS'ing about their willingness to bring down the cheats, that could be the way...

[devildeac]

I know we keep saying the Death Penalty won't happen. And I don't think it will.

But how is it not the most appropriate punishment for the scope, breadth and audacity of their perversion of higher education?

Seriously. It just makes you ill.

Does the NCAA know all the info that PackMan and BlueDevilicious have discovered? If no, then why not (get on it PackPride!!)? If yes, then I'll ask your same question/totally agree with you.

[devildeac]

i was thinking about this last night...we are all KIND of assuming that judgement day hasn't come to UNC yet, but, wouldn't it really be the hammer of thor, if the punishment has already been handed down INCLUDING a post ban THIS YEAR (along with all of our other hopes and dreams)?


could the NCAA bring down a more decisive strike than that? if they want to show that they aren't str8 BS'ing about their willingness to bring down the cheats, that could be the way...

I think I'm reading/understanding your post correctly by (me) ASSuming that if they know their punishment already, then the rest of us would, too. So, I still have to believe the NCAA is waiting, analyzing and continuing their internal investigation and discussions.

[BLPOG]

Does the NCAA know all the info that PackMan and BlueDevilicious have discovered? If no, then why not (get on it PackPride!!)? If yes, then I'll ask your same question/totally agree with you.

To be clear, the investigation by BlueDevilicious into Catinia Farrington is ongoing. There is no evidence of malfeasance yet, just a lot of cause for suspicion.

[OldPhiKap]

To be clear, the investigation by BlueDevilicious into Catinia Farrington is ongoing. There is no evidence of malfeasance yet, just a lot of cause for suspicion.

The guru on PackPride (it's not "Maharishi," but y'all know who I am talking about) recently posted that BlueDevilicious' work was being followed. Still, it couldn't hurt to send it to the NCAA on the record so they cannot deny knowing it (I guess).

[devildeac]

To be clear, the investigation by BlueDevilicious into Catinia Farrington is ongoing. There is no evidence of malfeasance yet, just a lot of cause for suspicion.

Oh, I realize that but I was considering the whole steaming, ginormous landfill of bovine excrement that accumulated over ~23 years and then adding this truckload to it and wondering if the NCAA is ignoring it, not aware of it (yet) or waiting for a more opportune moment to add this to their ongoing investigation.

[PackMan97]

Does the NCAA know all the info that PackMan and BlueDevilicious have discovered? If no, then why not (get on it PackPride!!)? If yes, then I'll ask your same question/totally agree with you.

I have discovered nothing. All I've done is repost stuff.

[devildeac]

I have discovered nothing. All I've done is repost stuff.

Which is spork-worthy as well. And many thanks for continuing to keep us informed.

[BLPOG]

Oh, I realize that but I was considering the whole steaming, ginormous landfill of bovine excrement that accumulated over ~23 years and then adding this truckload to it and wondering if the NCAA is ignoring it, not aware of it (yet) or waiting for a more opportune moment to add this to their ongoing investigation.

Beyond that, you'd think the prospect of SACS looking at the LD/ADD stuff has really got to terrify any sane individuals left at UNC.

[devildeac]

Beyond that, you'd think the prospect of SACS looking at the LD/ADD stuff has really got to terrify any sane individuals left at UNC.

That would/should be frightening.

[MarkD83]

Beyond that, you'd think the prospect of SACS looking at the LD/ADD stuff has really got to terrify any sane individuals left at UNC.

I don't want to sound like the UNC administration but is the LD/ADD stuff really under the jurisdiction of SACS? UNC found a way to give extra classroom help specifically to their athletes (NCAA impermissible benefit). However, if those getting the extra classes took legitimate classes, SACS would not care because the classes were legitimate.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't want to sound like the UNC administration but is the LD/ADD stuff really under the jurisdiction of SACS? UNC found a way to give extra classroom help specifically to their athletes (NCAA impermissible benefit). However, if those getting the extra classes took legitimate classes, SACS would not care because the classes were legitimate.

I would bet there is state or federal money somewhere in the LD/ADD stuff that could make it criminal fraud. Just sayin'

[BLPOG]

I don't want to sound like the UNC administration but is the LD/ADD stuff really under the jurisdiction of SACS? UNC found a way to give extra classroom help specifically to their athletes (NCAA impermissible benefit). However, if those getting the extra classes took legitimate classes, SACS would not care because the classes were legitimate.

To be honest, it's really unclear to me the extent of what does fall under SACS's purview. That said, I have to believe it's a violation of the institutional integrity that SACS charges (http://www.sacscoc.org/pdf/081705/integrity.pdf)it's members to uphold. A lot of that document basically says "be honest with us," much the same sort of thing they said a while back when telling UNC that if there was any additional fraud, they had best come clean. The emails clearly indicate a lot of people were connected to and knew about this LD diagnoses stuff. At the very least, it would constitute UNC not being forthright with SACS again.

[BigWayne]

I don't want to sound like the UNC administration but is the LD/ADD stuff really under the jurisdiction of SACS? UNC found a way to give extra classroom help specifically to their athletes (NCAA impermissible benefit). However, if those getting the extra classes took legitimate classes, SACS would not care because the classes were legitimate.

If they are really doing what Tydreke said in terms of getting false designations so they can more easily help athletes essentially commit academic fraud, then SACS would care. It takes a pretty charitable view to believe that athletes that are not really learning disabled, but set up to have "assistance" from note-takers etc. are not cheating on tests and papers.

[swood1000]

Here's Tydreke Powell talking about it with a call-in radio show: http://carolinablitz.com/2014/11/10/ex-tar-heel-says-butch-davis-told-players-they-shouldve-gone-to-harvard-if-they-wanted-an-education/. Doesn't sound like he's afraid to talk about it.

Edit: also doesn't seem reluctant to talk about taking paper classes. Whatever kept Rashad McCants from talking doesn't seem to have the same effect on Powell. Maybe it's because Powell already got his degree.

[94duke]

Here's Tydreke Powell talking about it with a call-in radio show: http://carolinablitz.com/2014/11/10/ex-tar-heel-says-butch-davis-told-players-they-shouldve-gone-to-harvard-if-they-wanted-an-education/. Doesn't sound like he's afraid to talk about it.

Edit: also doesn't seem reluctant to talk about taking paper classes.

Notice the date: Nov 10, 2014

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks to whichever Mod broke this into a separate thread. Virtual Sporkz.

[swood1000]

Notice the date: Nov 10, 2014
What conclusion should we draw from that?

[swood1000]

What conclusion should we draw from that?
Powell made this statement after the Wainstein Report (October 16, 2014) but before the NOA was issued (May 20, 2015). He did mention paper classes, which would make it relevant even though the NOA did not focus on LD/ADHD, so one would have assumed that they would at least interview him. Maybe they didn't know about it. Or maybe he'll appear in the revised NOA.

[BigWayne]

Notice the date: Nov 10, 2014

Yes. I believe his mom then posted some stuff on Facebook about it. However, it went quiet soon afterwards. There was speculation that someone at UNC contacted them and persuaded them to back off. I am pretty sure the Mom's Facebook posts got removed or hidden.

[JetpackJesus]

I'll buy him a shovel. :)

How about we all chip in for a backhoe instead? I don't know that a shovel can dig deep enough.

[ncexnyc]

Of course all of this is old news and the wulfies had page after page discussing the Fats/Farrington connection to UNC over on Pack Pride. While it seems like a branch that might yield some juicy fruit, I always felt the connection between several of the players and the dentists from the UNC Dental School would yield more gold.

[pamtar]

Of course all of this is old news and the wulfies had page after page discussing the Fats/Farrington connection to UNC over on Pack Pride. While it seems like a branch that might yield some juicy fruit, I always felt the connection between several of the players and the dentists from the UNC Dental School would yield more gold.

As did I. When all of this was breaking and the business license surfaced showing Fats and the Jamaican dental school prof on the same piece of paper, I thought that was gonna be the smoking gun. Haven't heard anything about it since. I've talked with dental school alum who've said that everyone was aware that the Jamaican prof (sorry, can't remember his name) was funneling benefits to players through Fats. You give your Rams club dues and then you give your dental school dues. It was kind of an inside joke between them.

[Edouble]

I always felt the connection between several of the players and the dentists from the UNC Dental School would yield more gold.

Like from Ray Felton's grill?

[BigWayne]

Roy is still on script: (https://twitter.com/InsideCarolina/status/695706121101778944)

Roy Williams says he's "cautiously relieved" that #UNC has no allegations in MBB, "but still, we’ve been punished for three years already."

[weezie]

Punished? Punished by his hideous sports coats? By his yokelisms?

[BD80]

Roy is still on script: (https://twitter.com/InsideCarolina/status/695706121101778944)

Roy Williams says he's "cautiously relieved" that #UNC has no allegations in MBB, "but still, we’ve been punished for three years already."

Could it be argued that such "punishment" was self-imposed due to the Wainstein report?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Roy is still on script: (https://twitter.com/InsideCarolina/status/695706121101778944)

Roy Williams says he's "cautiously relieved" that #UNC has no allegations in MBB, "but still, we’ve been punished for three years already."
So just 15 more to go.

[tteettimes]

Is Bubba the point guard on this issue ??---who is the point guard for Uncheats ??
Head buried in the gravel ?? Who ?? At least Patino showed up today !!
Who is showing up for the Cheats ??

[Newton_14]

The collective voices of the local fanbase here are all quoting from the same current unccheat bible. "There will be no punishment of any kind for Men's BB because they are not named in the NOA as committing any infractions. So all you delusional State and Duke fans are going to be very disappointed. There will be no punishment of any kind for Football, because they have already had their punishment for AFAM and there is nothing new in this NOA for Football to answer to. So all you delusional State and Duke fans are going to be very disappointed. The Women's Basketball team is going to get hammered because of all the cheating that went on under Sylvia and she is a goner, which we can't wait for. She brought all this shame against the school so she needs to go" end quote

Tell me again who the delusional folks are in this poll of public opinion??

It is something unlike anything I have ever seen in my life. 20 years of rampant, blatant cheating, with a blatant disrespect for NCAA Rules, the ACC, and fair competition, and the whole lot of them that make up the entity that is the University of North Carolina @ Chapel Cheat, from executives, to faculty, to coaching staff, former and current players, alumni, and fans, have drank so much of the $8.1mil PR Koolaid, their collective brains have been warped beyond repair. Total FUBAR between the ears of every single one of them to a men, women, and children. It is also arrogance levels that are beyond any level of arrogance ever seen on earth since it was formed into a planet. Narcissism of the highest degree.

The delay tactics have been very effective with the aforementioned. Whether they have been effective against the NCAA Rules Committee remains to be seen. I have argued all along since seeing the breadth of the scandal, they would get hammered by the NCAA in both Revenue Sports and Women's Hoops. I now find myself doubting that. I no longer know what to think or believe regarding what the NCAA will do to them.

If they skate in the two revenue sports, or any of the other sports proven to have participated in rampant cheating worse than SMU by a mile, it will be in my opinion, the biggest travesty in the history of sports competition, and the NCAA should be immediately disbanded, and all rules thrown out. Allow schools to do whatever they want, suit up any player they choose to, whether they are an active student or not, or if their eligibility has been exhausted or not. Just suit up and trot out any player you wish. Why bother with any pesky rules. Team with the most points at the end of the games win. period.


it will be sickening...

[devildeac]

Of course all of this is old news and the wulfies had page after page discussing the Fats/Farrington connection to UNC over on Pack Pride. While it seems like a branch that might yield some juicy fruit, I always felt the connection between several of the players and the dentists from the UNC Dental School would yield more gold.

"Do you throw out your gold teeth
Do you see how they roll"

[arnie]

The collective voices of the local fanbase here are all quoting from the same current unccheat bible. "There will be no punishment of any kind for Men's BB because they are not named in the NOA as committing any infractions. So all you delusional State and Duke fans are going to be very disappointed. There will be no punishment of any kind for Football, because they have already had their punishment for AFAM and there is nothing new in this NOA for Football to answer to. So all you delusional State and Duke fans are going to be very disappointed. The Women's Basketball team is going to get hammered because of all the cheating that went on under Sylvia and she is a goner, which we can't wait for. She brought all this shame against the school so she needs to go" end quote

Tell me again who the delusional folks are in this poll of public opinion??

It is something unlike anything I have ever seen in my life. 20 years of rampant, blatant cheating, with a blatant disrespect for NCAA Rules, the ACC, and fair competition, and the whole lot of them that make up the entity that is the University of North Carolina @ Chapel Cheat, from executives, to faculty, to coaching staff, former and current players, alumni, and fans, have drank so much of the $8.1mil PR Koolaid, their collective brains have been warped beyond repair. Total FUBAR between the ears of every single one of them to a men, women, and children. It is also arrogance levels that are beyond any level of arrogance ever seen on earth since it was formed into a planet. Narcissism of the highest degree.

The delay tactics have been very effective with the aforementioned. Whether they have been effective against the NCAA Rules Committee remains to be seen. I have argued all along since seeing the breadth of the scandal, they would get hammered by the NCAA in both Revenue Sports and Women's Hoops. I now find myself doubting that. I no longer know what to think or believe regarding what the NCAA will do to them.

If they skate in the two revenue sports, or any of the other sports proven to have participated in rampant cheating worse than SMU by a mile, it will be in my opinion, the biggest travesty in the history of sports competition, and the NCAA should be immediately disbanded, and all rules thrown out. Allow schools to do whatever they want, suit up any player they choose to, whether they are an active student or not, or if their eligibility has been exhausted or not. Just suit up and trot out any player you wish. Why bother with any pesky rules. Team with the most points at the end of the games win. period.


it will be sickening...
For those of us in the Triangle, the above post is accurate summation of the local "weather". The few times I've even mentioned the scandal to UNC graduates (except for my sister who worries her degree is worthless) I get an earful of Lance and Maggette rhetoric. Unfortunately as I've believed for a quite a while, Newton's last sentence should summarize the weather when we find out that only women's bball and soccer are hammered. Don't minimize the Swofford effect.

[OldPhiKap]

"Do you throw out your gold teeth
Do you see how they roll"

"Throw out your gold teeth
And see how they roll.
The answer they reveal,
Life is unreal."

(Part II)

(As opposed to the original, where you learn that not everyone can find something to do in Chicago)

[wsb3]

Roy painting himself & the program as the victims. This is either an outright liar of a man or completely delusional, or both. Take your pick.

Gee if it has stretched out longer than you like maybe you & the school should have come clean to begin with.

Roy when your players would be ineligible without fake classes that is what a person of average intelligence might see as cheating. But carry on with your version of not knowing. I bet you also did not know when Dean was doing it & you were one seat over.

THE CAROLINA WAY..

PS I had a lady that told me her daughter chose UNC over Duke because in her visit she concluded that Duke students were arrogant.. I paused & replied, "Yes, there is no arrogance over at Chapel Hill." :rolleyes:

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Roy painting himself & the program as the victims. This is either an outright liar of a man or completely delusional, or both. Take your pick.

Gee if it has stretched out longer than you like maybe you & the school should have come clean to begin with.

Roy when your players would be ineligible without fake classes that is what a person of average intelligence might see as cheating. But carry on with your version of not knowing. I bet you also did not know when Dean was doing it & you were one seat over.

THE CAROLINA WAY..

PS I had a lady that told me her daughter chose UNC over Duke because in her visit she concluded that Duke students were arrogant.. I paused & replied, "Yes, there is no arrogance over at Chapel Hill." :rolleyes:
It's amazing they don't see the irony. The carolina way was/is the purest embodiment of arrogance.

[plimnko]

It's amazing they don't see the irony. The carolina way was/is the purest embodiment of arrogance.

arrogance mixed with equal parts of delusion = the perfect carolina cocktail

[moonpie23]

we're all gonna be drunk happy, or drunk sad when it comes down to the nitty.....

[Duke95]

For anyone interested:

BlueDevilicious ‏@BlueDevilicious 27m27 minutes ago
Updated site to add doctors' criticism of UNC LD/ADHD testing. Called "thin", "inadequate", "off-label". http://www.bluedevilicious.com/ld-adhd-testing-documents-at-unc.html …

[wsb3]

How about we all chip in for a backhoe instead? I don't know that a shovel can dig deep enough.

Great point. I'm in.

[devildeac]

How about we all chip in for a backhoe instead? I don't know that a shovel can dig deep enough.


Great point. I'm in.


I'll throw in a few extra $$ to get one of these instead:

5910

[swood1000]

For anyone interested:

BlueDevilicious ‏@BlueDevilicious 27m27 minutes ago
Updated site to add doctors' criticism of UNC LD/ADHD testing. Called "thin", "inadequate", "off-label". http://www.bluedevilicious.com/ld-adhd-testing-documents-at-unc.html …
The "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label" remarks were made concerning ADHD testing and diagnosis. The problem is that if an accurate description of the tests performed was sent to the NCAA as a part of the required ADHD Reporting Form (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/ADHD%20reporting%20form.pdf), and the NCAA OKd it at the time, then I don't see how they could retroactively call it an infraction at this point. Here is a sample of the ADHD evaluation information they require (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Sample%20Evaluation%20Format%20ADHD.pdf). I don't doubt that the testing done was "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label," but if it was properly reported then it would seem that the NCAA is limited to telling UNC that more stringent requirements are in effect now and for the future. Furthermore, competent professionals sometimes disagree. To have it be retroactive it would have to be shown that the tester (a) submitted false testing reports to the NCAA and that (b) the school had reason to know about this.

It seems to me that much better results will come from locating athletes or others who will testify that athletes were coached in how to answer the questions or advised to fail.

[Duke95]

The "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label" remarks were made concerning ADHD testing and diagnosis. The problem is that if an accurate description of the tests performed was sent to the NCAA as a part of the required ADHD Reporting Form (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/ADHD%20reporting%20form.pdf), and the NCAA OKd it at the time, then I don't see how they could retroactively call it an infraction at this point. Here is a sample of the ADHD evaluation information they require (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Sample%20Evaluation%20Format%20ADHD.pdf). I don't doubt that the testing done was "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label," but if it was properly reported then it would seem that the NCAA is limited to telling UNC that more stringent requirements are in effect now and for the future. Furthermore, competent professionals sometimes disagree. To have it be retroactive it would have to be shown that the tester (a) submitted false testing reports to the NCAA and that (b) the school had reason to know about this.

It seems to me that much better results will come from locating athletes or others who will testify that athletes were coached in how to answer the questions or advised to fail.

This was already pointed out in the tweets.

BlueDevilicious ‏@BlueDevilicious 2h2 hours ago
UNC LD/ADHD testing not just NCAA issue. Doc called testing "disservice to athletes", "inadequate by most standards", but ok under NCAA's.

[Neals384]

The "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label" remarks were made concerning ADHD testing and diagnosis. The problem is that if an accurate description of the tests performed was sent to the NCAA as a part of the required ADHD Reporting Form (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/ADHD%20reporting%20form.pdf), and the NCAA OKd it at the time, then I don't see how they could retroactively call it an infraction at this point. Here is a sample of the ADHD evaluation information they require (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Sample%20Evaluation%20Format%20ADHD.pdf). I don't doubt that the testing done was "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label," but if it was properly reported then it would seem that the NCAA is limited to telling UNC that more stringent requirements are in effect now and for the future. Furthermore, competent professionals sometimes disagree. To have it be retroactive it would have to be shown that the tester (a) submitted false testing reports to the NCAA and that (b) the school had reason to know about this.

It seems to me that much better results will come from locating athletes or others who will testify that athletes were coached in how to answer the questions or advised to fail.

Except that the form says: "Complete and maintain (on file in the athletics department) this form and required documentation supporting the medical need for a student-athlete to be treated for ADHD with stimulant medication"

So it would seem the NCAA does not routinely receive or approve the forms, but they certainly could request all the files now and declare them "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label".
.

[swood1000]

Except that the form says: "Complete and maintain (on file in the athletics department) this form and required documentation supporting the medical need for a student-athlete to be treated for ADHD with stimulant medication"

So it would seem the NCAA does not routinely receive or approve the forms, but they certainly could request all the files now and declare them "thin," "inadequate," and "off-label".
.
Yes, right you are. The Official ADHD Guidelines (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/1%20%20NCAA%20Guidelines%20to%20Document%20ADHD%20 Treatment%20with%20Banned%20Stimulant%20Medication s%2001302009.pdf) say:


5. Requesting an NCAA Medical Exception:
a. The student-athlete should report the banned medication to the institution upon matriculation or when treatment commences in order for the student-athlete to be eligible for a medical exception in the event of a positive drug test.
b. A student-athlete’s medical records or physician’s letter should not be sent to the NCAA, unless requested by the NCAA.
c. The use of the prescribed stimulant medication does not need to be reported at the time of NCAA drug testing.
d. Documentation should be submitted by the institution in the event a student-athlete tests positive for the banned stimulant.


So the NCAA does not see these until after a positive drug test, and since they apparently only test for stimulants at NCAA championships (http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Drug%20Testing%20Program%20for%202015%20FINAL.pdf) that means that they see very few of them. It makes sense that the NCAA wouldn't want to be in the position of having to pass on each instance, and gives an incentive to the institution to make sure that all their ducks are in a row. I would think that they wouldn't be charged with an infraction unless there was a clear violation outside the gray area. An example of the gray area would be where respected physicians disagree on the reliability of a certain test.

I wonder if, in order to find an infraction for taking stimulants, there would have to be a drug test in conjunction with a game, or whether simply having been prescribed stimulants would be enough.

[BigWayne]

Op ed in the N&O by a Duke Law School graduate practicing in Raleigh. (http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article59198113.html)


In other words, “integrity” is something that is everyone’s job at a university and not to be “outsourced” to a single chief for exclusive purview. Without a top-to-bottom genuine commitment to integrity, the creation of a new “chief” position just looks like window dressing.

[swood1000]

Op ed in the N&O by a Duke Law School graduate practicing in Raleigh. (http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article59198113.html)

In other words, “integrity” is something that is everyone’s job at a university and not to be “outsourced” to a single chief for exclusive purview. Without a top-to-bottom genuine commitment to integrity, the creation of a new “chief” position just looks like window dressing.
The "Chief Integrity Officer" springs from the Chancellor’s Working Group on Ethics and Integrity Report and Recommendations (http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/EI-Report_Final.pdf). The fundamental problem is described this way:


Members of the campus community may be reluctant to disagree openly with someone even if they think something may be amiss. This reluctance may arise due to fear of jeopardizing a professional relationship, out of concern for others' well-being, or because raising an issue would be considered a challenge.

There also may be a perception that even when issues are raised formally, no action is taken. This perception may occur if an individual expresses a concern and is given no information on the resolution of the matter. Alternatively, an individual may have discussed or considered addressing an issue formally but failed to take action due to a belief that nothing will change or because he or she was dissuaded by other individuals who wanted to avoid conflict. In other cases, individuals may fail to pursue formal action because they are afraid of possible negative consequences.

Another contributing factor can be the lack of action on the part of persons in authority. When such a person does not exercise his or her authority to investigate or address a problem, the perception of inaction and conflict avoidance is reinforced and, in fact, becomes reality. Sometimes the decision to take no action is reasonable under certain circumstances, but in the face of allegations of misconduct, it can never be viewed as reasonable. In such situations, the decision may result from a lack of knowledge, a misunderstanding of one's own authority, a practice of avoiding conflict, or a desire not to know of problems.

The practice of avoiding conflicts, difficult conversations, and decisions, coupled with the restrictions on sharing personnel information, can contribute to the perception that action will not be taken and, in some instances, can actually result in inaction where action is needed.

The University must apply the same standards in investigating and responding to all concerns that are brought forward.


So the basic idea is that this office will review the handling of integrity and ethics issues by other departments and be a place where people can go if they feel that their concerns would be ignored by those heading the relevant department. I guess this makes some progress, depending on how closely the Chief Integrity Officer is going to investigate and follow up on these issues. The proposed role and responsibilities are:


• Serve as the primary leader of ethics and integrity initiatives at the University.
• Establish a standing committee composed of representative faculty and staff from throughout the University community who would serve as Ethics Partners for their respective units. Each individual would serve as a resource for his or her unit in handling issues related to ethics and integrity. The creation of a system of partners throughout the University would aid in reporting and would establish consistent communication across all departments. In addition, the inclusion of faculty members on this committee would enhance faculty engagement and governance across campus.
• Convene regular meetings of the Ethics Partners to share information, promote new initiatives, and discuss and disseminate best practices among units. Importantly, this group could also serve as an "early warning indicator" of systemic problems in behaviors or gaps in processes on campus.
• Report systemic problems or gaps to appropriate lines of authority to facilitate corrective action. The Officer would also maintain autonomy to serve as an independent investigator and compel corrective action when unit responsibilities are not being properly fulfilled. o Oversee and manage the ethics and integrity portion of all training and orientation sessions at the University level to establish centralized accountability ("ownership") for the presentation of this information and promote the use of a common set of language, materials, and expectations.
• Serve as a collection point for all reports that are submitted via the University's Compliance Line (EthicsPoint), which would then be communicated to appropriate units for investigation and resolution. The Officer would oversee tracking of the status and resolution of all reports to ensure that they are investigated in a timely fashion and resolved appropriately. Where appropriate and permitted by law, the Officer would also ensure that resolutions are communicated to the individual who made the report (hereinafter the reporter).
• Emphasize the use of existing resources when possible, identify places where additional resources can be brought to bear, and collaborate with other units on campus for investigative purposes.

I had though that UNC could benefit from a "Chief Integrity Officer" whose job would be that of a true internal auditor, and who would investigate departments on his own initiative in an adversarial role. But the advisory panel had problems with that:


The key risk to creating a central office is that it adds layers of bureaucracy without benefit. Even worse, a central office could become focused on being a policy authority, creating additional approval processes and an undue burden on units across campus. Encouraging a culture of ethics and integrity cannot be done effectively through mandate. This office must use its investigatory authority in the service of improving units rather than policing them, which is why this report intentionally encourages a focus on policy and separates the office from traditional risk management and compliance functions.

...success should be measured by documenting work completed, surveying campus leaders and constituencies, and assessing the amount and quality of service provided to units across the institution. An effective office will be service-oriented and focused on reinforcing culture through communication, guidance, and support built on a foundation of consistent, accessible policies.

So the Chief Integrity Office is going to oversee all the other departments, making sure that their ethical obligations are kept up to date and communicated to employees, and following up on problems. It will, however, apparently rely on whistle blowers. Still, this is something of a positive development, since in the past whistle blowers had no obvious place to go. However they have had similar functions in the past. For example, the Wainstein Report talks about the Faculty Athletics Committee (FAC):


The FAC is a body of nine faculty members elected by the faculty. According to Section 4-7(b) of the Faculty Code, “[t]he committee is concerned with informing the faculty and advising the chancellor on any aspect of athletics, including, but not limited to, the academic experience of varsity athletes, athletic opportunities for members of the University community, and the general conduct and operation of the University’s athletic program.”

...According to the meeting minutes, the FAC reviewed the data and concluded that it “did not feel that the level of independent study registrations by student-athletes reflects abuse of the opportunity.” Although the Committee noticed that an AFAM class, AFAM 190, AFAM Independent Studies, was one of two courses that accounted for the majority of student-athlete independent study enrollments, it “did not find any cause for concern in this situation.”

It would be more accurate to say, however, that the FAC did not try to find any cause for concern. As explained in the report submitted by Blanchard and Murphy, “No examination of the syllabus of any of these [independent study] courses was made since they are approved by the faculty in the respective departments.” This assumption – that a course is academically legitimate based upon the mere fact that it was offered by a department – prevented further scrutiny by the FAC in 2002 and served as the justification for much of the reticence to scrutinize the paper courses in the AFAM Department for so many years thereafter.


So wasn't the FAC designed for this specific purpose? Maybe they really mean it this time. No, really.

[MarkD83]

The "Chief Integrity Officer" springs from the Chancellor’s Working Group on Ethics and Integrity Report and Recommendations (http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/EI-Report_Final.pdf). The fundamental problem is described this way:


You missed one item that you can't see unless you read between the lines...

UNC must choose the Chief Integrity Officer from the list of Ram's Club members.

[swood1000]

It is the Department of Compliance that has much of the responsibility for making sure that the athletics teams keep to the straight and narrow. But how is the Chief Integrity Officer going to find out whether the Dept. of Compliance is doing its job properly? For example, the deposition of Amy Herman, UNC associate athletic director for compliance, revealed (https://bucknersportslaw.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/media-lawsuit-deposition-unc-compliance-office-maintained-few-written-records-related-to-the-ncaa-investigation/) the following:
 
• "Communication between her, then-athletic director Dick Baddour and Chancellor Holden Thorp was conducted almost exclusively face to face or on the phone."

• "As the department interviewed football players involved in the investigation, no written record was kept of players' eligibility statuses." Herman specifically stated: "It was pretty much in our heads which student athletes were involved."

• Herman was advised "in the past" to "avoid creating documents". The newspaper stated "it was not revealed who advised Herman to do so".

• UNC retained Bond, Schoeneck & King to assist the institution with the investigation. However, interestingly, Herman recalled the firm did not interview "neither Baddour nor Thorp" during the investigation.

This shows clearly that Compliance took steps at least to protect itself, if not to protect the athletic departments. But who is going to discover these things without an internal audit? One problem with the Working Group's analysis is that they seem to treat departments with no special incentive to violate the ethical rules the same as those who have a huge incentive. They say:


Encouraging a culture of ethics and integrity cannot be done effectively through mandate. This office must use its investigatory authority in the service of improving units rather than policing them, which is why this report intentionally encourages a focus on policy and separates the office from traditional risk management and compliance functions.

In the first place, more important than encouraging a culture of ethics and responsibility is encouraging compliance with the rules. And it's commonly known about human nature that fear of consequences is a powerful inducement for the average person to avoid crime. Just look at what average people do when law and order breaks down, as during a riot or a natural disaster. If the Chief Integrity Officer is not going to independently investigate departments generally, there ought to be special rules for those departments with a high incentive to break the rules, and particularly those departments who have been found guilty of breaking the rules in the past.

[77devil]

Op ed in the N&O by a Duke Law School graduate practicing in Raleigh. (http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article59198113.html)

I would add to the author's comment that integrity in an organization starts at the top. Unless the board, the president, chancellor, etc set the right tone at the top, drive it down through the organization, and hold people accountable with real consequences, the Chief Integrity Officer has almost zero chance of being effective. Additionally, the role should be hired by and report directly to the board in order to have independence from the administration. The last point presupposes that the board is largely independent, has a spine, and a will to put academic reputation and integrity above athletic prowess, things for which it seems to have little appetite.

[BigWayne]

I don't know anything about David Martin, but he has a pretty well written piece on the UNC scandal he posted on Sunday.

http://www.dcdave.com/article5/160107.htm

[madscavenger]

Notwithstanding, after the NOA became public, any Board anywhere else would publicly address an accusation both this serious and massive as soon as possible. Absent that, how can they, themselves not be suspect. Major media would be in hot pursuit of a scandal of this proportion, regardless of credibility. Much less severe situations have garnished constant attention. Instead, Dan Kane aside, there was a communications blackout. Chalk it up to the Carolina Way, i guess. Shameful.

[WiJoe]

I don't know anything about David Martin, but he has a pretty well written piece on the UNC scandal he posted on Sunday.

http://www.dcdave.com/article5/160107.htm

Pretty well written is an understatement. This story is incredible. Suppose any of the mopes at the NCAA have read it?

This adhd stuff is quite the scam. No shame at UNCheat.

[wsb3]

I don't know anything about David Martin, but he has a pretty well written piece on the UNC scandal he posted on Sunday.

http://www.dcdave.com/article5/160107.htm

Agreed BigWayne..Very well written.

"To give UNC the punishment they deserve will reveal the fetid swamp of corruption over which the NCAA has been presiding. If they don’t, though, the NCAA will reveal to one and all that cheating pays and that the NCAA, itself, is corrupt to the core."

Quote from the article.

[moonpie23]

"To give UNC the punishment they deserve will reveal the fetid swamp of corruption over which the NCAA has been presiding. If they don’t, though, the NCAA will reveal to one and all that cheating pays and that the NCAA, itself, is corrupt to the core."

Quote from the article.

the "money shot".....

[BD80]

You missed one item that you can't see unless you read between the lines...

UNC must choose the Chief Integrity Officer from the list of Ram's Club members.

Which fox shall guard the henhouse?

[Indoor66]

Right out of the current political playbook:

Appoint a Czar and add Regulations while you contemplate a Comprehensive Solution to a problem that has existing solutions if you would only adhere to the rules and follow the policies already in existence.

[BigWayne]

Which fox shall guard the henhouse?
We have a nomination over at the Daily Tar Heel. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/02/letter-jan-boxill-should-be-chief-integrity-officer)

[swood1000]

We have a nomination over at the Daily Tar Heel. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/02/letter-jan-boxill-should-be-chief-integrity-officer)
Jan Boxill has all the characteristics necessary for the position of Chief Integrity Officer, in abundance. No one knows better than she now does that most central of Tarheel tenets: loose lips sink professorships; and she certainly has a firm grasp of the importance of grand appearances in conjunction with toothlessness, so crucial for this new position. I therefore heartily second the nomination.

[moonpie23]

can we sporkz that guy?

[moonpie23]

don't fly with this former BOG guy (http://www.wral.com/former-unc-board-chair-arrested-after-gun-found-at-charlotte-airport/15354942/)

[Atlanta Duke]

Joe Nocera of the New York Times has a column on the ongoing unpleasantness (with mentions of BlueDevilicious and high incidence of learning disabilities diagnoses)

Dean Smith’s Shadow Looms Over U.N.C. as It Struggles With a Scandal’s Fallout

What does Dean Smith have to do with any of this? Nothing — and everything. Although Smith retired in 1997, four years after the paper classes began, rare is the person in North Carolina who thinks he knew about them, or that he would have looked the other way if he had...

Smith coined the phrase “The Carolina Way.” It stood for the idea that the University of North Carolina was a place where athletic excellence and academic excellence could exist side by side — and where the former did not necessarily corrupt the latter.

The paper class scandal has shattered that illusion

Link to full column

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/sports/ncaabasketball/dean-smiths-shadow-looms-over-unc-as-it-struggles-with-a-scandals-fallout.html?ref=sports

For those at UNC looking on the bright side of the "controversy" getting renewed attention in the NYT, the story line that "of course Dean did not know" is reinforced by Mr. Nocera

[BigWayne]

For those at UNC looking on the bright side of the "controversy" getting renewed attention in the NYT, the story line that "of course Dean did not know" is reinforced by Mr. Nocera

It also deflects attention from the UNC scandal by closing with this gratuitous politically correct BS line:


Starting that national conversation might be the best way to honor Dean Smith’s legacy.

[PackMan97]

Joe Nocera of the New York Times has a column on the ongoing unpleasantness (with mentions of BlueDevilicious and high incidence of learning disabilities diagnoses)

Dean Smith’s Shadow Looms Over U.N.C. as It Struggles With a Scandal’s Fallout

What does Dean Smith have to do with any of this? Nothing — and everything. Although Smith retired in 1997, four years after the paper classes began, rare is the person in North Carolina who thinks he knew about them, or that he would have looked the other way if he had...

Smith coined the phrase “The Carolina Way.” It stood for the idea that the University of North Carolina was a place where athletic excellence and academic excellence could exist side by side — and where the former did not necessarily corrupt the latter.

The paper class scandal has shattered that illusion


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/sports/ncaabasketball/dean-smiths-shadow-looms-over-unc-as-it-struggles-with-a-scandals-fallout.html?ref=sports

For those at UNC looking on the bright side of the "controversy" getting renewed attention in the NYT, the story line that "of course Dean did not know" is reinforced by Mr. Nocera

Thanks mate. You have made me cry. I never thought I'd see the day.

[Duke95]

I don't think Nocera's column detracts from the scandal. I think it helps to put this in perspective. Is there evidence that these irregular AFAM courses started during Dean Smith's tenure? Yes. But the degree to which they were used to keep athletes eligible exploded under his successors and other sports during the 2000s.

Look, the man is dead. He is respected by many, and quite frankly, by virtually all accounts, he cared very much for his players.

I think the focus should be on much more recent athletics personnel, many of whom are still there, and their enablers in the administrator. And the Ram's Club.

That's just for UNC. But we all know that a national discussion is needed. Soon.

[BigWayne]

I don't think Nocera's column detracts from the scandal. I think it helps to put this in perspective. Is there evidence that these irregular AFAM courses started during Dean Smith's tenure? Yes. But the degree to which they were used to keep athletes eligible exploded under his successors and other sports during the 2000s.

Look, the man is dead. He is respected by many, and quite frankly, by virtually all accounts, he cared very much for his players.

I think the focus should be on much more recent athletics personnel, many of whom are still there, and their enablers in the administrator. And the Ram's Club.

That's just for UNC. But we all know that a national discussion is needed. Soon.

I agree that a national discussion needs to be had, but it needs to happen with a massive UNC penalty zone in the rear view mirror. It needs to happen in the vein of how do we go find out what other schools have been doing similarly unacceptable things. Any national discussion that happens before UNC gets hammered is likely be more in the vein of everybody does it, so UNC is not really that bad of a case.

[Duke95]

I agree that a national discussion needs to be had, but it needs to happen with a massive UNC penalty zone in the rear view mirror. It needs to happen in the vein of how do we go find out what other schools have been doing similarly unacceptable things. Any national discussion that happens before UNC gets hammered is likely be more in the vein of everybody does it, so UNC is not really that bad of a case.

I am 100% in agreement. UNC's athletics should receive a massive punishment. After that, a substantial portion of the discussion should be over whether the NCAA's existence adds anything positive to the academic environment. So far, their arguments in favor of the NCAA have been far less than persuasive.

[Atlanta Duke]

I don't think Nocera's column detracts from the scandal. I think it helps to put this in perspective. Is there evidence that these irregular AFAM courses started during Dean Smith's tenure? Yes. But the degree to which they were used to keep athletes eligible exploded under his successors and other sports during the 2000s.

Look, the man is dead. He is respected by many, and quite frankly, by virtually all accounts, he cared very much for his players.

I think the focus should be on much more recent athletics personnel, many of whom are still there, and their enablers in the administrator. And the Ram's Club.

That's just for UNC. But we all know that a national discussion is needed. Soon.

I agree having events summarized in the NYT through Joe Nocera's column is a positive development for increasing nationwide awareness of the scandal.

I also personally think Dean Smith was a wonderful man for what he did in the community, his relationships with his players, and his accomplishments on the basketball court.

I was simply noting that Joe Nocera threw UNC fans a bone with his comments about Coach Smith and set up an argument about returning to a better time which may not have been as pristine as Mr. Nocera indicates. Maybe Mr. Nocera thought the column required a "on the one hand/on the other hand" approach with heroes and villains. I simply am not certain the known facts comfortably fit into that box, regardless of the many great accomplishments by Coach Smith, and that it was necessary to portray Coach Smith in a favorable or unfavorable manner in order to address current events.

[wsb3]

Dean Smith was a highly intelligent man with an amazing recall until his illness. To think that he did not know what was going on..I know Carolina fans want to believe it but come on..What are the odds? To keep something like that quiet for that long on a campus the size of UNC.

I still think that one of the best articles on all this was written by the UNC Grad & he wrote about how they were losing their way in the 80"s.

But if this would start a national conversation that is great. I think we can rule out ESPN..

I don't think we will ever know the depth of this. That is why I love it when Heels fans say they should sue.. Can you imagine people like Crowder having to swear to tell the truth or risk going to prison? There is no telling how deep, how far, the Carolina Way really goes.

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/13/north-carolina-tar-heels-paper-classes-ncaa

[Indoor66]

Of course Dean did not know:

5938

[OldPhiKap]

Dean was a control freak. How could he not know?


(I don't mean "control freak" pejoratively -- it's just a fact)

[oldnavy]

Dean was a control freak. How could he not know?


(I don't mean "control freak" pejoratively -- it's just a fact)

The same way that Ol Roy didn't know anything was wrong, but at the same time he wanted the players to stop majoring in AFAM studies.... because "it looked bad"...

Makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, right!

[BigWayne]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/sports/ncaabasketball/dean-smiths-shadow-looms-over-unc-as-it-struggles-with-a-scandals-fallout.html?ref=sports

For those at UNC looking on the bright side of the "controversy" getting renewed attention in the NYT, the story line that "of course Dean did not know" is reinforced by Mr. Nocera

Comments on the article are coming down decidedly against UNC. Looks like they are coming from a lot of people that are not DBR or PackPride members. One of the better ones:


treabeton new hartford, ny 1 hour ago

Let's see if I understand one key aspect of the scandal: Mary Willingham, an academic counselor at U.N.C., went public with the issue of "sham independent studies classes that never met."

She was then "vilified" by the university provost, James W. Dean, Jr. This resulted in her now working as an adjunct at a local community college. Essentially forced out for telling the truth about a corrupt system.

James W. Dean is still the provost. What is wrong with this picture? Ms. Willingham should have been lauded for revealing the fraud and deception and Mr. Dean should have been immediately terminated for his "vilification" of her actions.

What say the trustees of the university who have ultimate control? Nothing?
Why is James W. Dean Jr still in a leadership position? Alumni should demand answers. State officials should demand answers.

[Atlanta Duke]

So much for my mistaken assumption Joe Nocera giving Dean Smith a pass might be viewed favorably by the UNC faithful :)

This is the title for the IC thread on Nocera's column

Dean Smith Linked to Academic Scandal

[porcophile]

Given where it appeared, this may be the worst p.r. UNC has had yet.
I'm getting some grim satisfaction from watching the consequences of their mishandling of this business. In thrall to the Rams Club, the administration has denied, deflected, and delayed from the get-go, and is now paying the price. Instead of vilifying Mary Willingham, the chancellor and provost should have said that she had raised some disturbing questions, looked into the matter, at least affected contrition, fired a few people who knew what was going on (or should have), and self-imposed some penalties. In other words, they should have been as smart as the administration at Louisville. That would probably have staunched the wound, shored up the university's reputation, preserved some championships (and Dean Smith's good name), and allowed Carolina to "move forward." Instead, they've given themselves a case of p.r. herpes, with intermittent flare-ups and no end in sight. If grown-ups ever take control over yonder, they should start by cleaning out South Building and fumigating the place.
The faculty haven't exactly distinguished themselves either. When push comes to shove, they have no power except that of exhortation, but they haven't even exercised that.

[johnb]

Joe Nocera of the NY Times just answered our request for continued coverage of the scandal (the older thread seems to be closed, so feel free to move this if there's a better spot).

Front of today's sports page, Nocers wrote an excellent article on the shame of the Carolina way.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/sports/ncaabasketball/dean-smiths-shadow-looms-over-unc-as-it-struggles-with-a-scandals-fallout.html?_r=0

[sagegrouse]

Joe Nocera of the NY Times just answered our request for continued coverage of the scandal (the older thread seems to be closed, so feel free to move this if there's a better spot).

Front of today's sports page, Nocers wrote an excellent article on the shame of the Carolina way.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/13/sports/ncaabasketball/dean-smiths-shadow-looms-over-unc-as-it-struggles-with-a-scandals-fallout.html?_r=0

This is a 2,000-word article, much longer than Nocera's op-ed columns, and provides a good summary of the scandal and the UNC campus and alumni reaction.

[cspan37421]

From the article:


“We entice these players to entertain the public and enrich their coaches by performing a vast amount of arduous, dangerous and unpaid work, with the opportunity for free education and the distant chance to ‘go pro’ as their only compensation,” Harry Watson, a history professor, has written. “Then we set up conditions which make the ‘education’ either meaningless or nearly unattainable. To me, this situation is fundamentally immoral.”

[billy]

We have a nomination over at the Daily Tar Heel. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/02/letter-jan-boxill-should-be-chief-integrity-officer)

Honest question: was this letter written in earnest or just incredibly dry sarcasm? I can't tell.

By the way, some entertaining back and forth between Bradley Bethel and BlueDevilicious on Twitter (Bethel wants to debate BD'icious on the air on WCHL). Also between Bethel and Nocera, who, it appears, asked Bethel to quit tagging him (my Twitter skills are fairly limited).

[bob blue devil]

From the article:

It's a well articulated perspective. However, I would counterpoint with the naive perspective that getting to play a sport at the highest level of competition one is qualified is worth far more than any compensation the ncaa could throw at them in the eyes most athletes. Most do it for the love of the game, just ask all the non-scholarship athletes. Add on the incredible amount of resources thrown at you to help you get better in the game you love (professional coaching, pristine facilities, people to wash your clothes, etc.), the fame and fans, and the doors that are slightly more open later in life, and you get a pretty healthy amount of "compensation".

So, maybe this is falling into the question of what is the right balance - both the ncaa and the athletes in my eyes are getting a pretty good deal (although i feel less comfortable with that statement on the football side with the potential for long-term health problems). so how much of the extra pie should the ncaa keep vs. the athletes and how should that be structured. the education side is an obvious thing that according to popular opinion (and blatant evidence in the case of the tar heels) needs to be fixed - that should be a fully provided benefit for the athletes. it's funny, people lump the coaches on the ncaa side of stealing from the athletes, but in many ways the coaches are a benefit for the athletes - a very expensive benefit (could you imagine having the chance to be one of coach k's top priorities)! the stadiums, all of it, serve both the athletes and the schools they represent.

personally, i think the schools (/ncaa) need to clean-up the shenanigans, but i don't find the premise of student-athlete in a revenue sport immoral. given the conflicts, perhaps it is untenable in the long-term, but perhaps the schools (/ncaa) will find a moral compass in their missions and get this right. that is my hope.

[gumbomoop]

The faculty haven't exactly distinguished themselves either. When push comes to shove, they have no power except that of exhortation, but they haven't even exercised that.

In this whole mess, I am more troubled by this than by anything else.

Nocera says "a substantial percentage of the faculty... believes the problems revealed by Willingham's whistle-blowing -- which they deeply resent -- have been adequately dealt with by the Folt administration."

Assuming (1) Nocera is accurate, and (2) "resent" refers to "whistle-blowing" rather than to "problems," this is pathetic, dismaying, outrageous. The silent majority of UNC faculty resent someone who exposed practices that undercut academic integrity? They resent someone who informs them that grades were changed and signatures forged? That plagiarized work routinely received high grades?

Does this resentment stem from fears that their own credentials are tainted, their careers stifled via guilt by association? If so, do they realize their silence bespeaks intellectual cowardice about the subversion of their professional lives?

I can understand -- even if I disagree with -- a faculty member who thinks Folt has initiated real and sufficient reforms. But I am flabbergasted that faculty members should resent someone defending the principles and practices that underlie their professorial, and arguably scholarly, lives.

[porcophile]

Nocera says "a substantial percentage of the faculty... believes the problems revealed by Willingham's whistle-blowing -- which they deeply resent -- have been adequately dealt with by the Folt administration."

Assuming (1) Nocera is accurate, and (2) "resent" refers to "whistle-blowing" rather than to "problems," this is pathetic, dismaying, outrageous. The silent majority of UNC faculty resent someone who exposed practices that undercut academic integrity? They resent someone who informs them that grades were changed and signatures forged? That plagiarized work routinely received high grades?

Evidently. That "Move Forward" statement refers to “those in our community who seek out the media spotlight to rehash old issues as if they are ongoing problems.” (See http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article18880638.html#storylink=cpy)

That's rather obviously a dig at Mary Willingham and Jay Smith. It's true that the statement only lined up 140 faculty signatures, despite considerable effort, but that's an order of magnitude more than signed any statement expressing concern. And Nocera rightly reports that every measure put forward by the "small group of faculty members seeking reforms . . . has been shot down by the faculty council."

I agree that the silence, or worse, of tenured faculty is really dismaying. Pusillanimous higher administrators at least have the excuse that their jobs apparently depend on the good will of the Rams Club.

[BigWayne]

Evidently. That "Move Forward" statement refers to “those in our community who seek out the media spotlight to rehash old issues as if they are ongoing problems.” (See http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article18880638.html#storylink=cpy)

That's rather obviously a dig at Mary Willingham and Jay Smith. It's true that the statement only lined up 140 faculty signatures, despite considerable effort, but that's an order of magnitude more than signed any statement expressing concern. And Nocera rightly reports that every measure put forward by the "small group of faculty members seeking reforms . . . has been shot down by the faculty council."

I agree that the silence, or worse, of tenured faculty is really dismaying. Pusillanimous higher administrators at least have the excuse that their jobs apparently depend on the good will of the Rams Club.

From what I have read and what I have read between the lines during this whole exercise, it's like North Korea over there. You do not say anything against the basketball machine or you are banished to the basement. The vast majority of academia is already conditioned to conform to groupthink in the last few decades. It does not attract a lot of people that are willing to go against the grain.

[Tom B.]

Given where it appeared, this may be the worst p.r. UNC has had yet.
I'm getting some grim satisfaction from watching the consequences of their mishandling of this business. In thrall to the Rams Club, the administration has denied, deflected, and delayed from the get-go, and is now paying the price. Instead of vilifying Mary Willingham, the chancellor and provost should have said that she had raised some disturbing questions, looked into the matter, at least affected contrition, fired a few people who knew what was going on (or should have), and self-imposed some penalties. In other words, they should have been as smart as the administration at Louisville. That would probably have staunched the wound, shored up the university's reputation, preserved some championships (and Dean Smith's good name), and allowed Carolina to "move forward." Instead, they've given themselves a case of p.r. herpes, with intermittent flare-ups and no end in sight. If grown-ups ever take control over yonder, they should start by cleaning out South Building and fumigating the place.
The faculty haven't exactly distinguished themselves either. When push comes to shove, they have no power except that of exhortation, but they haven't even exercised that.

Just sporked you, mainly for the phrase "p.r. herpes." What an absolutely perfect encapsulation of Carolina's current situation.

[porcophile]

From what I have read and what I have read between the lines during this whole exercise, it's like North Korea over there. You do not say anything against the basketball machine or you are banished to the basement. The vast majority of academia is already conditioned to conform to groupthink in the last few decades. It does not attract a lot of people that are willing to go against the grain.
5940

[swood1000]

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BigWayne http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=858384#post858384)
From what I have read and what I have read between the lines during this whole exercise, it's like North Korea over there. You do not say anything against the basketball machine or you are banished to the basement. The vast majority of academia is already conditioned to conform to groupthink in the last few decades. It does not attract a lot of people that are willing to go against the grain.


5940
The view from space at night down Route 501 from that new NASA satellite designed to spot morally advanced civilizations.

5944

[PackMan97]

Roy knew...but he didn't know.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbRDkopUkAACifi.png:large

[PackMan97]

UNC knew about kids that couldn't do the work, that's why they targeted them for LD/ADHD testing/Dx and got them exceptions from the regular UNC courses. To keep them eligible, but not to educate them.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbOwDMrUcAAMWrK.png:large

[swood1000]

Roy knew...but he didn't know.
Is that in the same way that light is a wave but it is a particle?

[PackMan97]

Is that in the same way that light is a wave but it is a particle?

That would depend. What does UNC need it to be to avoid trouble with the NCAA? now what do they need to avoid trouble with SACS? As with most things, UNC's opinion changes based on who is observing.

[oldnavy]

Roy knew...but he didn't know.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbRDkopUkAACifi.png:large

Ok, here is where I throw the BS flag.

Roy was concerned that his kids were majoring in AFAM studies because their friends were???? PLEASE!!! Just how stupid does Roy think everyone is??

I bet that Roy would have hung a banner up if all his kids were majoring in Molecular Biology, or Chemistry, or... pick something other than a corrupt AFAM major.

His concern was that the clustering would bring attention to what he knew was a corrupt and fake curriculum created while he was an assistant at UNC to keep his players eligible to participate plain and simple. Roy probably wanted to save the fake classes for those players that were really not going to do the work...

[TKG]

In this whole mess, I am more troubled by this than by anything else.

Nocera says "a substantial percentage of the faculty... believes the problems revealed by Willingham's whistle-blowing -- which they deeply resent -- have been adequately dealt with by the Folt administration."

Assuming (1) Nocera is accurate, and (2) "resent" refers to "whistle-blowing" rather than to "problems," this is pathetic, dismaying, outrageous. The silent majority of UNC faculty resent someone who exposed practices that undercut academic integrity? They resent someone who informs them that grades were changed and signatures forged? That plagiarized work routinely received high grades?

Does this resentment stem from fears that their own credentials are tainted, their careers stifled via guilt by association? If so, do they realize their silence bespeaks intellectual cowardice about the subversion of their professional lives?

I can understand -- even if I disagree with -- a faculty member who thinks Folt has initiated real and sufficient reforms. But I am flabbergasted that faculty members should resent someone defending the principles and practices that underlie their professorial, and arguably scholarly, lives.

Wonder if our new Dean of Students was part of this silent UNC faculty?

[swood1000]

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by PackMan97 http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=859009#post859009)
Roy knew...but he didn't know.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by swood1000 http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=859019#post859019)
Is that in the same way that light is a wave but it is a particle?
That would depend. What does UNC need it to be to avoid trouble with the NCAA? now what do they need to avoid trouble with SACS? As with most things, UNC's opinion changes based on who is observing.
Ah yes, Schrödinger's cat. In order to achieve any resolution I believe it will be necessary for OldPhiKap to opine on this matter.

[BLPOG]

Wonder if our new Dean of Students was part of this silent UNC faculty?

She was not silent. She was part of a group that made their resentment of Willingham & Smith abundantly clear in an open letter/petition.

As porcophile mentioned upthread:


Evidently. That "Move Forward" statement refers to “those in our community who seek out the media spotlight to rehash old issues as if they are ongoing problems.” (See http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article18880638.html#storylink=cpy)

[PackMan97]

Ah yes, Schrödinger's cat. In order to achieve any resolution I believe it will be necessary for OldPhiKap to opine on this matter.

I'm pretty sure it has nothign to do with cats in box, be they alive or dead. More like a combination of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the observer effect.

[porcophile]

From what I have read and what I have read between the lines during this whole exercise, it's like North Korea over there.
Some may not have seen this piece of gallows humor. It was circulating among some dissident UNC faculty last fall.
5952

[Tom B.]

Some may not have seen this piece of gallows humor. It was circulating among some dissident UNC faculty last fall.
5952


I LOLed at this line:


Women's basketball has lost several players to other schools, ensuring that the team will not be a post-season contender. This will make it easier to move forward by sacrificing that sport, if necessary.

[OldPhiKap]

Ah yes, Schrödinger's cat. In order to achieve any resolution I believe it will be necessary for OldPhiKap to opine on this matter.


I'm pretty sure it has nothign to do with cats in box, be they alive or dead. More like a combination of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and the observer effect.



Ivan Pavlov walks into a bar. The telephone rings.

Pavlov stands up and yells "Oh, crud. I forgot to feed the dogs!"



(That's all I've got today)

[CameronBlue]

Ivan Pavlov walks into a bar. The telephone rings.

Pavlov stands up and yells "Oh, crud. I forgot to feed the dogs!"



(That's all I've got today)

So he returns home and one of the dogs whispers to his mate "how many times now have we called the bar and he still forgets to bring us a drink. This guy has a learning disability!"

[Ian]

So have we officially entered the drug scandal phase of this debacle?

[PackMan97]

Looks like UNC is just cheating in their Athletic Department. A state audit of UNC finds omissions and misstatements.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article60507756.html


UNC-Chapel Hill’s financial statements were found to have “significant misstatements and omissions,” according to a recent state audit.

State Auditor Beth Wood wrote in the audit that her staff found certain deficiencies in UNC’s internal control “that we consider to be material weaknesses.”


UNC blames implementing a new computer system and the unexpected retirement of their controller.


Additionally, we had to address the unexpected retirement of the University’s controller of almost 22 years. These factors created enormous challenges for us, but I assure you this was a one-time incident.”

You can't make this stuff up. Is there anything over there with which UNC is above board about, or doing the right way?

[PackMan97]

...and back to the scandal.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbTtpgsUUAAyuTH.png

amazing the balls on that gal...pushing paper classes, likely holding some of her own...she tells a fellow professor all undergrad courses require a final exam!

[elvis14]

Some may not have seen this piece of gallows humor. It was circulating among some dissident UNC faculty last fall.
5952

I had to read that twice. The part about silencing detractors and then sacrificing women's basketball is just unreal. This entire statement is just so wrong and shows such a absence of ethics.

[BLPOG]

I had to read that twice. The part about silencing detractors and then sacrificing women's basketball is just unreal. This entire statement is just so wrong and shows such a absence of ethics.

It was satire, but I can understand the confusion given the contents of so many of the released documents.

[CameronBlue]

UNC blames implementing a new computer system and the unexpected retirement of their controller.


Unexpected retirement? Okay it can happen I suppose but in 22 years they never devised a succession plan...for a controller? I'm beginning to understand why UNC's auspicious literary tradition is built around folklore and storytelling.

[Indoor66]

Unexpected retirement? Okay it can happen I suppose but in 22 years they never devised a succession plan...for a controller? I'm beginning to understand why UNC's auspicious literary tradition is built around folklore and storytelling.

Good accountants with magic pencils can be hard to find.

[sammy3469]

Good accountants with magic pencils can be hard to find.
The cynic in me wouldn't be shocked if they were running a whole bunch of the supposedly Rams Club PR expenses through the university coffers, but I'm sure they have all the necessary policies and procedures to prevent that from happening.

[weezie]

...I'm beginning to understand why un-classy's's auspicious literary tradition is built around folklore and storytelling.

Yes tell me that story about the goat stepping into the tar patch again? That one always cracks me up.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Starting to look like Wall Street and Franklin Street have a lot in common.

[BigWayne]

So have we officially entered the drug scandal phase of this debacle?

Well at least the LD phase. NCAA has investigated and punished for this type of thing before. (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4737281)

Fred Rouse, a former Seminoles receiver, attributes the prevalence of learning disabled athletes to an awareness of the resources available to those with such a diagnosis. He says some players are just lazy and looking for someone else to do their academic work.

[cspan37421]

Unexpected retirement? Okay it can happen I suppose but in 22 years they never devised a succession plan...for a controller? I'm beginning to understand why UNC's auspicious literary tradition is built around folklore and storytelling.

22 years, eh?
That timeline keeps coming up.

[porcophile]

Interesting interview by the Chronicle of Higher Education today with Michael Adams, chancellor of Pepperdine University, former president of the University of Georgia, and a member of NCAA Committee on Infractions. Here's the money shot:


BRAD WOLVERTON: You've led and been on lots of powerful NCAA committees, currently serving on the Committee on Infractions. What do you see as the major challenges facing the NCAA, and how do you think it could improve its effectiveness as an organization?

MICHAEL ADAMS: Well, from an Infractions Committee standpoint, I think it's very simple. And that's to make it where it's not beneficial to cheat. There are some coaches, I won't use any names, and we've seen examples lately, where I think they figured that bending the rules academically, that the penalties or the potential penalties, were worth the chance. And I think the NCAA and the Infractions Committee have to send a very strong message in that regard. That's where I also think the public comes in. I think we have to maintain the legitimacy of the academic process, and the belief of the public. I have felt for years that the front-end requirements academically are still too weak, with all due respect to my friend Ronald Harrison, who has led the academic-reform movement and done a masterful job. I'd still like to see it ratcheted up a little bit, and I'd like to ensure it to the public that the people that are playing on Saturday afternoons are real students Monday through Friday.

BRAD WOLVERTON: So you've seen this rash of cases involving academic misconduct recently. You had Syracuse, you've got UNC under investigation. Not to comment on anyone in particular, but what do you think has contributed to that? Some people say it's actually the tougher standards on the front end.

MICHAEL ADAMS: Well, those people and I would disagree. I think there are two things that are compelling to me. When I was chair of the executive committee of the NCAA in some of the last years of the late Myles Brand, who was a very close friend of mine, we put a lot of money into enforcement. I think that was a smart thing. So I think, on one hand, some of the cases that are coming forward now are because the NCAA is doing a better job investigation-wise and sort of ferreting out what's going on. And then secondly, I think there are some coaches out there unfortunately — I've met some of them — who've decided that their way to success was to cheat. And I think without having deep animus toward them, which is sometimes hard, I do think the message has to be sent to them that the cost of cheating in the NCAA is not worth it. And I think until that messages is internalized, we may have some more cases like this.

The whole interview is here (http://chronicle.com/article/Video-NCAA-Must-Ferret-Out/235248?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en&elqTrackId=e855a4404e3b44b4a648933265e821d4&elq=e485f83becfa43f8add47a40869ed0f1&elqaid=7908&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=2452).

[swood1000]

Well at least the LD phase. NCAA has investigated and punished for this type of thing before. (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4737281)
Except that in the Florida State case there was no determination that LD had been abused, and no punishment for that. There was a learning specialist who was found to have supplied extra benefits because she typed the paper of an LD student, thinking that was OK.


During the 2004-05 through 2006-07 academic years, the former learning specialist provided improper typing assistance on her word processor for at least three student-athletes. Specifically, the former learning specialist typed portions of the papers of the student-athletes who she believed had learning disabilities. Such assistance was not available to other student-athletes at the AASS facility, and institutional policy required that any accommodations to students with disabilities be provided through the Student Disability Resource Center (SDRC).

The decision said that it wasn't OK because only the SDRC had the authority to provide accommodations for students with disabilities. But they didn't come anywhere near an inquiry into whether the diagnosis of LD was warranted.

[PackMan97]

Look at what I found languishing on the THIRD page! I don't care if you just beat the Cheaters, you guys should be ashamed!

Can someone let me know when the scandal started?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbjPupqUYAAFy7b.png:large

[swood1000]

Look at what I found languishing on the THIRD page! I don't care if you just beat the Cheaters, you guys should be ashamed!

Can someone let me know when the scandal started?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbjPupqUYAAFy7b.png:large

And this listing of "Irregular Courses" is only a subset of the total number of courses UNC utilized to keeps its athletes eligible. These are the ones that UNC agrees that it can't deny.

[PackMan97]

And this listing of "Irregular Courses" is only a subset of the total number of courses UNC utilized to keeps its athletes eligible. These are the ones that UNC agrees that it can't deny.

+1

This doe snot include PHIL, EXSS, COMM, GEO, NAVS and others that emails have been shown to include paper courses. As swood said, therse are merely the AFAM courses for which UNC has no answer.

[wsb3]

These are the ones that UNC agrees that it can't deny.

Money quote Swood1000.

[bedeviled]

This doe snot include PHIL, EXSS, COMM, GEO, NAVS and others that emails have been shown to include paper coursesAre any entities interested in material that didn't come from uNC's PR machine or are they still relying on uNC to police itself?
I don't know how the conents of this MATH email (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2487546/pages/pdf3a-final-web060-p91-large.gif) are defensible.

[Lar77]

Are any entities interested in material that didn't come from uNC's PR machine or are they still relying on uNC to police itself?
I don't know how the conents of this MATH email (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2487546/pages/pdf3a-final-web060-p91-large.gif) are defensible.

"Most of them actually passed"

Are you kidding me?

This email raises so many issues. Cleveland State is going to get whacked hard.

[Pghdukie]

N & O reporting that Mecklenburg Co judge threw out Metcalf and Arnold suits against UNC ruling that University can't be sued. Metcalf/Arnold (BB and FB players) were saying they we're steered to AFAM by advisers and coaches instead of giving them an education.

[Tommac]

N & O reporting that Mecklenburg Co judge threw out Metcalf and Arnold suits against UNC ruling that University can't be sued. Metcalf/Arnold (BB and FB players) were saying they we're steered to AFAM by advisers and coaches instead of giving them an education.

Here's a link as reported by the Burlington Times-News. http://www.thetimesnews.com/news/20160219/judge-dismisses-academic-claims-by-ex-unc-athletes

[Atlanta Duke]

Here's a link as reported by the Burlington Times-News. http://www.thetimesnews.com/news/20160219/judge-dismisses-academic-claims-by-ex-unc-athletes

Out of state talent (Los Angeles office of Skadden) wins this round for UNC.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article61302252.html

Some rabble rousing elected official needs to ask why Carolina at least cannot keep the money in North Carolina to provide economic stimulus if it is going to run up these legal bills :)

[Indoor66]

Out of state talent (Los Angeles office of Skadden) wins this round for UNC.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article61302252.html

Some rabble rousing elected official needs to ask why Carolina at least cannot keep the money in North Carolina to provide economic stimulus if it is going to run up these legal bills :)

That's easy. They know the quality of the education you get at unCheat.

[wsb3]

Manalishi Post

I've been working on another matter for the past few weeks, but a quick update:

There were some serious and heated discussions in CH following Wednesday night's debacle regarding self-imposing for this year, ala Louisville. Part of the reason was exasperation of what transpired versus Duke, no doubt, but word is that other news has begun to trickle out, as well. (see Greenberg, Gottlieb, etc.)
And the discussions were among some of the TRUE string-pullers in CH -- certainly not the pawns like BC and CF.

It also sounds like another name will be "sacrificed" in the coming weeks. We know that unc's "firings" sometimes move at a snail's pace, but if it goes down as is currently being discussed, its purpose will be yet another convoluted, half-hearted PR attempt.

[wsb3]

Also Greenberg mentioned scandal on Game Day. http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:14812183

Roy blows up about Doug Gottlieb saying he will retire at end of the season. Even when the Cheats win they can't have a good day.

[Tom B.]

Roy blows up about Doug Gottlieb saying he will retire at end of the season. Even when the Cheats win they can't have a good day.

That blowup was Roy at his insecure, thin-skinned best. The press conference was basically over and nobody had asked Roy about the retirement rumor -- then Roy came back specifically to rip into Gottlieb. Nobody would've remembered or cared what Gottlieb said (because, really, who ever cares what Doug Gottlieb says?), until Roy took Gottlieb's otherwise forgettable comments and turned them into a big deal.

[WiJoe]

Yep, that's classic deputy dawg

5998

[Wheat/"/"/"]

That blowup was Roy at his insecure, thin-skinned best. The press conference was basically over and nobody had asked Roy about the retirement rumor -- then Roy came back specifically to rip into Gottlieb. Nobody would've remembered or cared what Gottlieb said (because, really, who ever cares what Doug Gottlieb says?), until Roy took Gottlieb's otherwise forgettable comments and turned them into a big deal.

He needed to nip that sort of discussion in the bud. Talk like that left unchallenged can affect recruiting.

If he didn't address it right away to this "journalist", others might have picked up on it thinking there was some merit to it...the state of journalism is pretty poor these days. Add to it all the internet, uninformed content out there and I'd say he did the right thing attacking the source with humor and a healthy dose of condescension to take control of the "story".

[-jk]

He needed to nip that sort of discussion in the bud. Talk like that left unchallenged can affect recruiting.

If he didn't address it right away to this "journalist", others might have picked up on it thinking there was some merit to it...the state of journalism is pretty poor these days. Add to it all the internet, uninformed content out there and I'd say he did the right thing attacking the source with humor and a healthy dose of condescension to take control of the "story".

All he had to say was "I'll be back next year." Clean. Clear. He didn't need to verbally abuse anyone.

-jk

[dukejim1]

All he had to say was "I'll be back next year." Clean. Clear. He didn't need to verbally abuse anyone.

-jk

Its Gottlieb who verbally abuses people every day, where's the problem?

[Indoor66]

Its Gottlieb who verbally abuses people every day, where's the problem?

The problem is that, as the Coach at a major university (even one that has admittedly cheated since 1988), he should be above such comments. He should dismiss such speculation with a simple one line denial of the allegation and move on. Give such comment no dignity and, thus, maintain your dignity.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

All he had to say was "I'll be back next year." Clean. Clear. He didn't need to verbally abuse anyone.

-jk

Of course he did. The hack deserved every bit of it.

Maybe he'll start doing some actual research now and avoid passing on unsubstantiated rumor as fact while pretending to act like a "reporter".

And now he also knows he better wear his "big boy pants" properly the next time he decides to kick sand on Roy Williams when he thinks he's down.

[devildeac]

Of course he did. The hack deserved every bit of it.

Maybe he'll start doing some actual research now and avoid passing on unsubstantiated rumor as fact while pretending to act like a "reporter".

And now he also knows he better wear his "big boy pants" properly the next time he decides to kick sand on Roy Williams when he thinks he's down.

Gottlieb? Hack?

Ha! At least a unc fan and DBR agree on something :o ;) .

[jv001]

Of course he did. The hack deserved every bit of it.

Maybe he'll start doing some actual research now and avoid passing on unsubstantiated rumor as fact while pretending to act like a "reporter".
And now he also knows he better wear his "big boy pants" properly the next time he decides to take on and kick sand on Roy Williams when he thinks he's down.

I don't like Dougie boy either, but just maybe old roy might start using his timeouts when needed, quit throwing Dean under the bus, quit lying about not knowing about the fake classes and making stupid statements in his press interviews. Then maybe he can begin to act like a big time college basketball coach. GoDuke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Gottlieb? Hack?

Ha! At least a unc fan and DBR agree on something :o ;) .

I guess only a UNC fan could get a Duke fan to defend that guy...

[arnie]

Of course he did. The hack deserved every bit of it.

Maybe he'll start doing some actual research now and avoid passing on unsubstantiated rumor as fact while pretending to act like a "reporter".

And now he also knows he better wear his "big boy pants" properly the next time he decides to kick sand on Roy Williams when he thinks he's down.

An angry man catches no fish. I suspect Roy's childlike anger has something to do with the truth behind the situation. Similar to "I don't give a s--- about Carolina" then joining up.

[OldPhiKap]

I dont have a problem with Roy shooting this down because it cheesed him off. K has been known to issue preemptive launches on stuff too.

Having said that, I am sure this is not how Roy pictured the end of his career. I am sure he saw himself like Dean, leaving on top and loved by the Carolina faithful. He is instead nearing the end under a cloud, with a very unhappy fan base. (Wheat, you may disagree that the cloud or discontent is warranted, but I doubt you disagree they are there).

Roy is a fighter. He is fighting for his team and his legacy. I frankly would be shocked if he did not hit back at this. And any sitting coach should.

[moonpie23]

i think marshal handled his "rude journalist" better...

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

He needed to nip that sort of discussion in the bud. Talk like that left unchallenged can affect recruiting.

If he didn't address it right away to this "journalist", others might have picked up on it thinking there was some merit to it...the state of journalism is pretty poor these days. Add to it all the internet, uninformed content out there and I'd say he did the right thing attacking the source with humor and a healthy dose of condescension to take control of the "story".
Uh, this is the least of UNC and Roy's concerns when it comes to recruiting. Let's just be honest about the situation. A few middling recruits have rolled the dice. But when the hammer of Thor comes down, I expect them to bolt. You guys better hope those so-called Blue Steel guys can do more than warm the pine.

[77devil]

He needed to nip that sort of discussion in the bud. Talk like that left unchallenged can affect recruiting.

If he didn't address it right away to this "journalist", others might have picked up on it thinking there was some merit to it...the state of journalism is pretty poor these days. Add to it all the internet, uninformed content out there and I'd say he did the right thing attacking the source with humor and a healthy dose of condescension to take control of the "story".

Me thinks Roy protest too much.

[77devil]

i think marshal handled his "rude journalist" better...

Agreed but low bar.

[Tom B.]

Me thinks Roy protest too much.

Exactly. It's one thing for Roy to think he needs to knock down the rumor. But by going off the way he did, he made it a much bigger story than it should've been. Carolina fans may high-five each other about how Roy "took down" Gottlieb, but now the story has legs -- and outside of the Carolina fanbase bubble, Roy has actually made Doug Gottlieb look somewhat sympathetic, which is no small feat.

[timmy c]

Exactly. It's one thing for Roy to think he needs to knock down the rumor. But by going off the way he did, he made it a much bigger story than it should've been. Carolina fans may high-five each other about how Roy "took down" Gottlieb, but now the story has legs -- and outside of the Carolina fanbase bubble, Roy has actually made Doug Gottlieb look somewhat sympathetic, which is no small feat.

I don't care what coach williams says or does, gottlieb will never look sympathetic!

[dalmatians98]

I don't know how you can make anyone sympathize with a guy who played in a college game with his shorts on backwards. That there is funny, I don't care who you are.

[wsb3]

If UNC gets hit hard with sanctions does anyone think Roy will actually stick around? I just don't see him having the stomach for it.

I don't like Doug either but there is a decent chance he turns out to be right, considering Roy's age, health concerns, & the strong possibility that they are on probation going forward.

[OldPhiKap]

Good tee times are available on the coast, Roy.

Just sayin'

[oldnavy]

Good tee times are available on the coast, Roy.

Just sayin'

Hey! Don't send him down this way! There are enough old geezers booking up all the good tee times down here....

[sagegrouse]

Me thinks Roy protest too much.

He has to protest loudly, whether it's true or not. Failure to answer will be used against him in recruiting, which is a two or three year process.

If Roy does decide to retire, UNC can keep it under wraps for a bit while lining up a successor, enabling it to keep contact with recruits in the pipeline. "Rumors" that are "out there" for a long time can be positively harmful because of their use by rival programs. Of course, UNC's lack of compliance with NCAA regulations is causing the same kind of problems.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

He needed to nip that sort of discussion in the bud. Talk like that left unchallenged can affect recruiting.

If he didn't address it right away to this "journalist", others might have picked up on it thinking there was some merit to it...the state of journalism is pretty poor these days. Add to it all the internet, uninformed content out there and I'd say he did the right thing attacking the source with humor and a healthy dose of condescension to take control of the "story".

Wheat, I agree. Not addressing it was a bad option. A quiet denial invites more questions. An emphatic "no" shuts the door publicly.

Even if he is planning to leave, I think he did reacted correctly from a program point of view.

[BluePanda]

A couple of folks with consistently good information and insight dropping some haymakers over at packpride right now - good stuff.

[budwom]

Wheat, I agree. Not addressing it was a bad option. A quiet denial invites more questions. An emphatic "no" shuts the door publicly.

Even if he is planning to leave, I think he did reacted correctly from a program point of view.

Ol' Roy's recruiting is absolutely already en toilette, and protesting Gottlieb's comments won't have any effect.
Top tier recruits used to line up to be considered by Ol Roy, but that's no longer the case.

[MarkD83]

Wheat, I agree. Not addressing it was a bad option. A quiet denial invites more questions. An emphatic "no" shuts the door publicly.

Even if he is planning to leave, I think he did reacted correctly from a program point of view.

However, Roy could have shut the door publically with a very terse statement that did not require him rushing back into a press conference that was breaking up.

Look how Coach K and Colangelo just handled the rumors about K not coaching in Rio. Coach K did not rush back into a room looking frantic. He made a very terse statement at the appropriate time. He also probably gave Jerry a call and told him to please make a statement.

Roy could have waited until his next press conference (probably the next day) and said I called Gottlieb told him he was wrong, I am not retiring and the door is shut. Rushing back into a press conference looks too much like Gottlieb struck a sore subject that Roy has been dealing with behind the scenes.

[OldPhiKap]

A couple of folks with consistently good information and insight dropping some haymakers over at packpride right now - good stuff.

Any way to summarize or link? I do not know who is who over there. Thanks!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

However, Roy could have shut the door publically with a very terse statement that did not require him rushing back into a press conference that was breaking up.

Look how Coach K and Colangelo just handled the rumors about K not coaching in Rio. Coach K did not rush back into a room looking frantic. He made a very terse statement at the appropriate time. He also probably gave Jerry a call and told him to please make a statement.

Roy could have waited until his next press conference (probably the next day) and said I called Gottlieb told him he was wrong, I am not retiring and the door is shut. Rushing back into a press conference looks too much like Gottlieb struck a sore subject that Roy has been dealing with behind the scenes.

I imagine all if that is true.

I am just saying - there's lots of things we can bag on Roy for, but this seems reasonable to me.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

However, Roy could have shut the door publically with a very terse statement that did not require him rushing back into a press conference that was breaking up.

Look how Coach K and Colangelo just handled the rumors about K not coaching in Rio. Coach K did not rush back into a room looking frantic. He made a very terse statement at the appropriate time. He also probably gave Jerry a call and told him to please make a statement.

Roy could have waited until his next press conference (probably the next day) and said I called Gottlieb told him he was wrong, I am not retiring and the door is shut. Rushing back into a press conference looks too much like Gottlieb struck a sore subject that Roy has been dealing with behind the scenes.

For all we know he had just heard about Gottlieb's comments after the PC, and turned right around.
Roy is not coach K on how he handles the press. He's just a different personality.
The K not coaching in Rio story was not right after an emotional game. Different situation entirely.

Roy was getting beat up everywhere after a tight 1 point loss to his #1 rival. So he reacted as he often does, emotionally...and shut the door forcefully on that retirement talk from a hack "journalist". Big deal. Roy will leave on his own terms when he's ready.

Some of you look for the smallest things to rag on Roy....

[bedeviled]

Any way to summarize or link [the Pack Pride forum]? I do not know who is who over thereOne of the most trustworthy/connected people is st8dukegrad87.
His posts from today include the following:

My legal contacts in Indy are "happy" with the way things are turning out with respect to UNC-CH. I am not getting any information from my contacts in enforcement as they are "locked down" right now.
.
> Define "happy", please.
it gives them a point to use to defend the NCAA in Jenkins.
.
My understanding is that the framework of the punishment is pretty much set, now it is all about the details. The NCAA views UNC-CH as potentially the most litigious member they will have punished and want to make sure that they get it right and it is defense-able.


I heard from multiple sources last year that Roy wanted out but was convinced to stay this year to lock in a strong recruiting class and win a national championship. I dislike Roy as much as anyone but from what i have been told he took "a bullet" for the school by staying this year. I see no way he stays once this season is done. Hubert will be the one that has to lead them through the sanctions over the coming years

And, manalishi, the premier trustworthy/connected source, countered as untrue a Ram's Club member's statement that the penalty will be a 1-year ban (for football and basketball) supplemented by a very large fine - essentially taking the brunt of punishment via finances.

[BluePanda]

Any way to summarize or link? I do not know who is who over there. Thanks!

Not sure if the link will work, but http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina-state/forums/2515-packpride-sports/14505939-uncheat-scandal-fake-ld-diagnoses-drugs-vs-fake-classes?s=178&page=41

Starting at the bottom of page 41, but mostly on pages 43 and 44 for the "new" news.

Users "manalishi" and "st8dukegrad87" (who seems to be more involved in the legal/NCAA side of things) have had good foresight and fairly intricate knowledge of the situation since I started following, and it seems that most people believe they have good inside sources. I only started checking into that site because their posts have been fairly well distributed to other Duke forums. Caveat: obviously no one can be sure they're 100% legit, but at this point, I'm inclined to believe what they say based on history and reputation (even among Duke fans).

Summary:

1. Manalishi response to another user claiming a Ram's Club member told him/her that the negotiated punishment would be 1 year post-season ban and a fine of $100M:


Absolutely not true.

There are about a baker's dozen worth of Rams Clubbers who actually know what's going on -- all of whom are sprinkled amongst the top 3% or so of Ed Foundation contributors.
The rest of the Big Rams (even some of those giving upper-six digits a year) are being spoon-fed a pre-determined company line.

2. st8dukegrad87 response to another user claiming the general punishment parameters have been set, but the NCAA is holding off until after the tournament and that it seems to be bad for UNC:


I have been in Shanghai for the last week or so and have not been able to see the boards. My legal contacts in Indy are "happy" with the way things are turning out with respect to UNC-CH. I am not getting any information from my contacts in enforcement as they are "locked down" right now. The NCAA is going to laugh at UNC-CH is they offer a self-imposed 1 year ban.

3. st8dukegrad87 followup to Manalishi in (1):



This is accurate and I know for a fact that UNC-CH is laughed at everytime they have offered a 1 year ban. UNC-CH can self-impose whatever they want, the COI has the final say and the COI has not and is not going to sign off on a 1 year ban.

4. st8dukegrad87 general followup:


My understanding is that the framework of the punishment is pretty much set, now it is all about the details. The NCAA views UNC-CH as potentially the most litigious member they will have punished and want to make sure that they get it right and it is defense-able.

[OldPhiKap]

One of the most trustworthy/connected people is st8dukegrad87.
His posts from today include the following:




And, manalishi, the premier trustworthy/connected source, countered as untrue a Ram's Club member's statement that the penalty will be a 1-year ban (for football and basketball) supplemented by a very large fine - essentially taking the brunt of punishment via finances.

Many thanks, tried to spork you but apparently I have been cut off temporarily.

[devildeac]

Many thanks, tried to spork you but apparently I have been cut off temporarily.

Got them covered for you ;) .

[OldPhiKap]

Got them covered for you ;) .

You're a good man, Charlie Brown!

[tux]

Not sure if the link will work, but http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina-state/forums/2515-packpride-sports/14505939-uncheat-scandal-fake-ld-diagnoses-drugs-vs-fake-classes?s=178&page=41

Starting at the bottom of page 41, but mostly on pages 43 and 44 for the "new" news.

Users "manalishi" and "st8dukegrad87" (who seems to be more involved in the legal/NCAA side of things) have had good foresight and fairly intricate knowledge of the situation since I started following, and it seems that most people believe they have good inside sources. I only started checking into that site because their posts have been fairly well distributed to other Duke forums. Caveat: obviously no one can be sure they're 100% legit, but at this point, I'm inclined to believe what they say based on history and reputation (even among Duke fans).

Summary:

1. Manalishi response to another user claiming a Ram's Club member told him/her that the negotiated punishment would be 1 year post-season ban and a fine of $100M:



2. st8dukegrad87 response to another user claiming the general punishment parameters have been set, but the NCAA is holding off until after the tournament and that it seems to be bad for UNC:



3. st8dukegrad87 followup to Manalishi in (1):



4. st8dukegrad87 general followup:



Thanks for that summary. I went over and read through some of the posts. The disconnect between this (if true) and what the media has been peddling (Bilas, and many others) is nuts. Perhaps this makes me a bad person, but the media buying into the UNC PR message has made me wish for even stiffer penalties. I don't mind some media pushback against rival fans, but I feel like Bilas and others have refused to actually look at some of the pertinent facts. And their opinions to me have looked much more like wishful thinking than reality. Of course, if the hammer does fall, Bilas will just point to it as another example of NCAA incompetence and overreach.

[OldPhiKap]

Not sure if the link will work, but http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina-state/forums/2515-packpride-sports/14505939-uncheat-scandal-fake-ld-diagnoses-drugs-vs-fake-classes?s=178&page=41

Starting at the bottom of page 41, but mostly on pages 43 and 44 for the "new" news.

Users "manalishi" and "st8dukegrad87" (who seems to be more involved in the legal/NCAA side of things) have had good foresight and fairly intricate knowledge of the situation since I started following, and it seems that most people believe they have good inside sources. I only started checking into that site because their posts have been fairly well distributed to other Duke forums. Caveat: obviously no one can be sure they're 100% legit, but at this point, I'm inclined to believe what they say based on history and reputation (even among Duke fans).

Summary:

1. Manalishi response to another user claiming a Ram's Club member told him/her that the negotiated punishment would be 1 year post-season ban and a fine of $100M:



2. st8dukegrad87 response to another user claiming the general punishment parameters have been set, but the NCAA is holding off until after the tournament and that it seems to be bad for UNC:



3. st8dukegrad87 followup to Manalishi in (1):



4. st8dukegrad87 general followup:

Thanks, also tried to give you positive feedback sporkz but I have been put in time-out. Good stuff!

[moonpie23]

It's hard to read his (manalishi) posts...they get me so riled up with glorious expectations....

all of the "they already cut a deal to keep the banners up" posts crush my soul, tho...

[grad_devil]

I have many NCAA contacts, but since they federated their staff a few years ago, all of my contacts deal only with Division 2.

I have little to add on the subject, except I was told that the COI doesn't meet at NCAA headquarters, but they reserve the top floor of the Westin (a couple of blocks away) and sequester themselves during the entire proceeding.

Now, we just need to get someone to get hired on at the Westin for the next few months so we have someone on the "inside".

Are there any volunteers who are in Indianapolis and want a second job? :)

[devildeac]

Thanks, also tried to give you positive feedback sporkz but I have been put in time-out. Good stuff!

Took care of that one, too. ;)

Does that mean I get more than a rock in my trick or treat sack this Halloween? :o

And, trying to be relevant, this news is getting even more appetizing now.

[OldPhiKap]

Took care of that one, too. ;)

Does that mean I get more than a rock in my trick or treat sack this Halloween? :o

And, trying to be relevant, this news is getting even more appetizing now.

Extra mashed potatoes for you! And that wasn't a rock, it was a beer from Stone Brewery.

If this information is close to true, i wonder what the time frame is. Doubtful that it is before the Tourney, given that Selection Sunday is March 16th. It still adds some drama to the decision of either self-imposing (and hoping that mollifies the NCAA) or flaunting and competing (i.e. risking maximum pissoffedness of NCAA). But of course, we all know which choice uNC will make. . . .

[budwom]

any self-imposing unc would do would be, on the face of it, laughable. They're used to snowing the area fans and media, but they have a tougher foe this time.
Might as well sit tight and take their medicine.

[BluePanda]

any self-imposing unc would do would be, on the face of it, laughable. They're used to snowing the area fans and media, but they have a tougher foe this time.
Might as well sit tight and take their medicine.

Agreed. Here's my breakdown of how I would feel given the range of punishments out there:


Ecstatic: 2 banners down, proportional loss of wins, 3+ year post-season ban, $10M+ fine, limited recruiting, loss of scholarships, and give current players ability to transfer immediately. This would be the most appropriate punishment, IMO. Punish the cheating retrospectively and take away the ill-gotten wins, while sending a warning to other schools to never cheat on this scale. I know the players were stupid in believing the recruiting B.S., but even I wouldn't want to put the punishment on them.
Happy: 1 banner down, proportional loss of wins, 3+ years post-season ban, fine and the rest. This is where I see them sacrificing a bit of the future to keep one banner.
Meh to negative: 0 banners down, drastic loss of wins, 3+ years post-season ban, fine and the rest. Doesn't punish the cheating directly and will be seen as a lenient punishment to many,
Hugely negative: No lost banners and less than 3 years post-season ban. There is no amount of fine, loss of scholarships or other punishments that could make up for the first two.

[moonpie23]

Ecstatic: moonpie in jail

Happy: moonpie arrested and just told to get the hell out of chapel hill

Sad: moonpie on dbr posting about "the horror"

[jv001]

Agreed. Here's my breakdown of how I would feel given the range of punishments out there:


Ecstatic: 2 banners down, proportional loss of wins, 3+ year post-season ban, $10M+ fine, limited recruiting, loss of scholarships, and give current players ability to transfer immediately. This would be the most appropriate punishment, IMO. Punish the cheating retrospectively and take away the ill-gotten wins, while sending a warning to other schools to never cheat on this scale. I know the players were stupid in believing the recruiting B.S., but even I wouldn't want to put the punishment on them.
Happy: 1 banner down, proportional loss of wins, 3+ years post-season ban, fine and the rest. This is where I see them sacrificing a bit of the future to keep one banner.
Meh to negative: 0 banners down, drastic loss of wins, 3+ years post-season ban, fine and the rest. Doesn't punish the cheating directly and will be seen as a lenient punishment to many,
Hugely negative: No lost banners and less than 3 years post-season ban. There is no amount of fine, loss of scholarships or other punishments that could make up for the first two.


You mean they get to keep the Helms Banner, :cool:

If the cheats don't get hit with number one or two in your scenario, I may give up watching college basketball until the NCAA is disbanded. GoDuke!

[MarkD83]

any self-imposing unc would do would be, on the face of it, laughable. They're used to snowing the area fans and media, but they have a tougher foe this time.
Might as well sit tight and take their medicine.

One of the more humorous posts is that UNC will self-impose a post-season ban THIS year the day after they lose in the NCAA tournament.

[CameronBlue]

You mean they get to keep the Helms Banner, :cool:

If the cheats don't get hit with number one or two in your scenario, I may give up watching college basketball until the NCAA is disbanded. GoDuke!

Personally I'd like to hit them with number 2. My aim with number 1 is a tad erratic.

[77devil]

He has to protest loudly, whether it's true or not. Failure to answer will be used against him in recruiting, which is a two or three year process.

If Roy does decide to retire, UNC can keep it under wraps for a bit while lining up a successor, enabling it to keep contact with recruits in the pipeline. "Rumors" that are "out there" for a long time can be positively harmful because of their use by rival programs. Of course, UNC's lack of compliance with NCAA regulations is causing the same kind of problems.

He can do that w/o the Gottlieb rant which isn't impressing anyone especilly recruits.

[77devil]

Some of you look for the smallest things to rag on Roy...

He makes so it easy.

[wsb3]

The Cheats on the second page..:confused:

Changed radio stations just long enough yesterday to hear David Glenn talk about poor Roy being punished for something he had nothing to do with..

Roy suspected nothing was wrong but he was concerned about the cluster of players that majored in AFAM classes..Like someone far smarter than I posted..would there have been that level of concern if the cluster of classes was say Chemistry?

[UrinalCake]

The Cheats on the second page..:confused:

Changed radio stations just long enough yesterday to hear David Glenn talk about poor Roy being punished for something he had nothing to do with..

Roy suspected nothing was wrong but he was concerned about the cluster of players that majored in AFAM classes..Like someone far smarter than I posted..would there have been that level of concern if the cluster of classes was say Chemistry?

Gottlieb was on the DG show yesterday defending his comments about Roy. You might have caught some comments after that interview. Gottlieb still thinks it's about easy classes, he thinks it's so overblown that people are making such a big deal out of "correspondence courses," which every school has and he himself took! Even those in the media are clueless. Gottlieb went on to say that Roy found out his athletes were taking easy classes and put a stop to it, and that he should be commended for doing so.

He went on to say that UNC is the title favorite, as evidenced by their big win over Miami. Said that everyone should be IMPRESSED by their performance last wednesday because they ALMOST beat Duke despite their guards not shooting well! You can't make this stuff up.

[Olympic Fan]

Gottlieb was on the DG show yesterday defending his comments about Roy. You might have caught some comments after that interview. Gottlieb still thinks it's about easy classes, he thinks it's so overblown that people are making such a big deal out of "correspondence courses," which every school has and he himself took! Even those in the media are clueless. Gottlieb went on to say that Roy found out his athletes were taking easy classes and put a stop to it, and that he should be commended for doing so.

He went on to say that UNC is the title favorite, as evidenced by their big win over Miami. Said that everyone should be IMPRESSED by their performance last wednesday because they ALMOST beat Duke despite their guards not shooting well! You can't make this stuff up.

He also admitted to Glenn that he's not a journalist and doesn't feel the need to verify facts or ever differentiate between facts and rumors in his reporting.

He and Glenn essentially got into a shouting match over part of Gottlieb's report -- Glenn admitted that the idea that Roy -- with his health issues and the looming scandal -- might retire after this season, but claiming his own inside sources at UNC (which I know he has) said that there was zero chance -- "I'll bet you a million dollars," he screamed -- that Hubert Davis would be the successor.

It was pretty entertaining to hear the diehard UNC defender (which Glenn is) and the non-journalist go at it.

[oldnavy]

He also admitted to Glenn that he's not a journalist and doesn't feel the need to verify facts or ever differentiate between facts and rumors in his reporting.

He and Glenn essentially got into a shouting match over part of Gottlieb's report -- Glenn admitted that the idea that Roy -- with his health issues and the looming scandal -- might retire after this season, but claiming his own inside sources at UNC (which I know he has) said that there was zero chance -- "I'll bet you a million dollars," he screamed -- that Hubert Davis would be the successor.

It was pretty entertaining to hear the diehard UNC defender (which Glenn is) and the non-journalist go at it.

Well, I guess UNC's money for PR isn't a complete waste.... it has some folks convinced that all is well by the Old Well.

I hope the NCAA isn't as easily fooled.

[budwom]

Well, I guess UNC's money for PR isn't a complete waste... it has some folks convinced that all is well by the Old Well.

I hope the NCAA isn't as easily fooled.

For years the PR machine in Chapel Hill has been able to completely cow North Carolina sportswriters into buying all the Carolina Way nonsense.
As such, unc has deluded itself into thinking that its ham handed tactics will be equally effective when dealing with other entities, such as the
NCAA. At some point (relatively soon I suspect) the Delay, Mislead, Lie and Obfuscate strategy is going to unravel on them.

[madscavenger]

"I'll bet you a million dollars," he screamed -- that Hubert Davis would be the successor.


So, are you saying that Hubert Davis is the next Matt Doherty?

[madscavenger]

In sum





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3LPbe_wmYo&t=3s

[English]

So, are you saying that Hubert Davis is the next Matt Doherty?

I've gotta believe that if the NCAA defies all of our dismal expectations and actually goes scorched earth on the Holes, their MBB program would be better served throwing a sort of stopgap HC solution into the fray until the penalty period fades. If they truly believe Hubert is the next big thing at UNC, they likely wouldn't want to install him into a no-win scenario where he would just wear down and pile up losses. Of course, after watching Hubert's forgettable & abhorrent stint as an analyst on the World Wide Leader, I would love to see him get thoroughly shellacked ad nauseam until the mere thought of stockpiling timeouts was nightmare-inducing.

That said, and because he's a friend of mine, I'd enjoy it if Wes Miller got his shot as HC at the Dump. Of course, I might find it slightly tougher to root against them every game, but in this fantasyland, they'd be playing for nothing with inferior talent anyway so the stakes would essentially be child's play.

Anyway, food for thought.

[OldPhiKap]

I've gotta believe that if the NCAA defies all of our dismal expectations and actually goes scorched earth on the Holes, their MBB program would be better served throwing a sort of stopgap HC solution into the fray until the penalty period fades. If they truly believe Hubert is the next big thing at UNC, they likely wouldn't want to install him into a no-win scenario where he would just wear down and pile up losses. Of course, after watching Hubert's forgettable & abhorrent stint as an analyst on the World Wide Leader, I would love to see him get thoroughly shellacked ad nauseam until the mere thought of stockpiling timeouts was nightmare-inducing.

That said, and because he's a friend of mine, I'd enjoy it if Wes Miller got his shot as HC at the Dump. Of course, I might find it slightly tougher to root against them every game, but in this fantasyland, they'd be playing for nothing with inferior talent anyway so the stakes would essentially be child's play.

Anyway, food for thought.

Didn't Gary Williams come home to help the Terps through the end of their problems? That worked out very well for them I think.

If they gave Hubert time to work through the year(S) of limited scholarships, etc., that would probably be a good healing choice.

[jv001]

For years the PR machine in Chapel Hill has been able to completely cow North Carolina sportswriters into buying all the Carolina Way nonsense.As such, unc has deluded itself into thinking that its ham handed tactics will be equally effective when dealing with other entities, such as the
NCAA. At some point (relatively soon I suspect) the Delay, Mislead, Lie and Obfuscate strategy is going to unravel on them.

Most NC sportswriters graduated from Cheat U. Well, at one point in time they did. It's like the blind leading the blind when it comes to cheat fans. GoDuke!

[English]

If they gave Hubert time to work through the year(S) of limited scholarships, etc., that would probably be a good healing choice.

Perhaps, although I'm not sure who "they" are--the AD/Administration or the Ram's Club and Walmart fans et al. The threshold for healing and patience cannot be understated when it comes to an otherworldly entitled fanbase in baby blue*. It's possible that I don't give them enough credit for their understanding and compassion, but I can't imagine that the venom would be withheld for much of a grace period after any punishment has been meted. Of course, who knows what type of journey back from post-season ban/schollie-loss hell the next HC will have to navigate without knowing what the punishment entails.

In my earlier post, I was suggesting that should NC be given a 3 (or more) yr post-season ban and extended schollie loses, the next HC would basically be getting through the first season or more with scraps and duct tape...and potentially a preferred walk-on or two. Would the machine over there want that HC to be its presumed next shining star in Hubert? I'm skeptical of his ability as a head coach, myself, but they may not agree.

*Pot, kettle...whatever.

[jv001]

Perhaps, although I'm not sure who "they" are--the AD/Administration or the Ram's Club and Walmart fans et al. The threshold for healing and patience cannot be understated when it comes to an otherworldly entitled fanbase in baby blue*. It's possible that I don't give them enough credit for their understanding and compassion, but I can't imagine that the venom would be withheld for much of a grace period after any punishment has been meted. Of course, who knows what type of journey back from post-season ban/schollie-loss hell the next HC will have to navigate without knowing what the punishment entails.

In my earlier post, I was suggesting that should NC be given a 3 (or more) yr post-season ban and extended schollie loses, the next HC would basically be getting through the first season or more with scraps and duct tape...and potentially a preferred walk-on or two. Would the machine over there want that HC to be its presumed next shining star in Hubert? I'm skeptical of his ability as a head coach, myself, but they may not agree.

*Pot, kettle...whatever.

I've seen this term(bolded) posted many times. Just what does this mean? I'm hoping it's not a racist comment. GoDuke!

[camion]

He also admitted to Glenn that he's not a journalist and doesn't feel the need to verify facts or ever differentiate between facts and rumors in his reporting.

He and Glenn essentially got into a shouting match over part of Gottlieb's report -- Glenn admitted that the idea that Roy -- with his health issues and the looming scandal -- might retire after this season, but claiming his own inside sources at UNC (which I know he has) said that there was zero chance -- "I'll bet you a million dollars," he screamed -- that Hubert Davis would be the successor.

It was pretty entertaining to hear the diehard UNC defender (which Glenn is) and the non-journalist go at it.

As credibility decreases decibels increase. :mad:

[arnie]

I've seen this term(bolded) posted many times. Just what does this mean? I'm hoping it's not a racist comment. GoDuke!

Racist?? What world do you live in - people of all races pour into WalMart. I think the comment is based on Walmart's huge sales of college sweatshirts, banners, etc. You don't need to be a Carolina graduate to buy their stuff or follow the Heels.

[devildeac]

I've seen this term(bolded) posted many times. Just what does this mean? I'm hoping it's not a racist comment. GoDuke!

Will this work?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Walmart+Heel+fan

"A University of North Carolina fan whom one would expect to root for North Carolina State University based on social class and decorum.


Did you see that Walmart Heel fan drive his John Deere tractor into the bass fishing pond?"

Or this:

"A fan of a university's sports team who never actually attended the university. Oftentimes said individual bought one of their t-shirts at Walmart and declared themself a fan.


Did that guy even go to UNC?". "No of course not, he is a Walmart fan like 90% of their fans".


;)

Hope that helps.

[English]

I've seen this term(bolded) posted many times. Just what does this mean? I'm hoping it's not a racist comment. GoDuke!

It refers to the vast ocean of mouthbreathers whose only connection to the institution (and, in many cases, even the state) is the vile mountain of baby blue gear they buy at WalMart. Race and socioeconomic factors aren't really relevant, although obviously taste and judgment (lack thereof) is intimately tied to the sub-group.

[jv001]

Will this work?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Walmart+Heel+fan

"A University of North Carolina fan whom one would expect to root for North Carolina State University based on social class and decorum.


Did you see that Walmart Heel fan drive his John Deere tractor into the bass fishing pond?"

Or this:

"A fan of a university's sports team who never actually attended the university. Oftentimes said individual bought one of their t-shirts at Walmart and declared themself a fan.


Did that guy even go to UNC?". "No of course not, he is a Walmart fan like 90% of their fans".


;)

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the explanation. I don't know what kind of Duke fan I am since I didn't attend Duke University. Well a life long Duke fan I guess. Since the Howard Hurt and Carroll Youngkin days. As for football, Wray Carlton days. One thing we all can agree on is we hate the cheats. Wait a minute, I just thought of something. I hate going to Wally World, but my wife loves going. So, I guess she's a Duke Walmart fan as she didn't attend Duke University either. She'll be happy to hear about that. GoDuke!

[devildeac]

Thanks for the explanation. I don't know what kind of Duke fan I am since I didn't attend Duke University. Well a life long Duke fan I guess. Since the Howard Hurt and Carroll Youngkin days. As for football, Wray Carlton days. One thing we all can agree on is we hate the cheats. Wait a minute, I just thought of something. I hate going to Wally World, but my wife loves going. So, I guess she's a Duke Walmart fan as she didn't attend Duke University either. She'll be happy to hear about that. GoDuke!

My reply was selected quotations. One of the urban dictionary responses was about a Duke FB fan but I chose to omit that one :o .

[PackMan97]

Will this work?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Walmart+Heel+fan

"A University of North Carolina fan whom one would expect to root for North Carolina State University based on social class and decorum.


Did you see that Walmart Heel fan drive his John Deere tractor into the bass fishing pond?"

Not cool. There are too many things wrong with that definition and example for me to unpack them all in this forum. Let me just say that Mr. Hogwood has officialy been added to my "list".

[devildeac]

Not cool. There are too many things wrong with that definition and example for me to unpack them all in this forum. Let me just say that Mr. Hogwood has officialy been added to my "list".

Yea, I thought that one was rather brutal. :o

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks for the explanation. I don't know what kind of Duke fan I am since I didn't attend Duke University. Well a life long Duke fan I guess. Since the Howard Hurt and Carroll Youngkin days. As for football, Wray Carlton days. One thing we all can agree on is we hate the cheats. Wait a minute, I just thought of something. I hate going to Wally World, but my wife loves going. So, I guess she's a Duke Walmart fan as she didn't attend Duke University either. She'll be happy to hear about that. GoDuke!

As a vehement Duke fan and non-alum, I sense we have a big off-season discussion about "true fans" looming on the horizon. It seems to be an issue that has been skirted several times in recent weeks.


I for one refute "Walmart" status.

[oldnavy]

As a vehement Duke fan and non-alum, I sense we have a big off-season discussion about "true fans" looming on the horizon. It seems to be an issue that has been skirted several times in recent weeks.


I for one refute "Walmart" status.

To me, the "WalMart" fan is someone who likes the team because they are popular and they like the colors. A "WalMart" fan is also someone who claims to be a fan, but cannot name more than 1 player on the team if that.

A ploy I love to pull on a "fan" who starts giving me the business, usually when I wear my Duke stuff that is similar to what the Duke guys did on the UNC campus the other day... I start asking the "fan" what they think of Nelson Johnson's post play for UNC or if they are pleased with Justin Sansfro's play at point guard this year???

It can be funny...

[jv001]

To me, the "WalMart" fan is someone who likes the team because they are popular and they like the colors. A "WalMart" fan is also someone who claims to be a fan, but cannot name more than 1 player on the team if that.

A ploy I love to pull on a "fan" who starts giving me the business, usually when I wear my Duke stuff that is similar to what the Duke guys did on the UNC campus the other day... I start asking the "fan" what they think of Nelson Johnson's post play for UNC or if they are pleased with Justin Sansfro's play at point guard this year???

It can be funny...

Great post. I call these types fans, band wagon fans or fair weather fans. I have a very good friend that roots for the cheats because he was involved with a young lady that happened to be a life long cheat fan. He knows nothing about the team, players, rules, coaches, etc. He doesn't know enough to have an opinion about their cheating. He just likes to watch them play. God bless him. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

To me, the "WalMart" fan is someone who likes the team because they are popular and they like the colors. A "WalMart" fan is also someone who claims to be a fan, but cannot name more than 1 player on the team if that.

A ploy I love to pull on a "fan" who starts giving me the business, usually when I wear my Duke stuff that is similar to what the Duke guys did on the UNC campus the other day... I start asking the "fan" what they think of Nelson Johnson's post play for UNC or if they are pleased with Justin Sansfro's play at point guard this year???

It can be funny...

IMHO (where that H was around here someplace), "Walmart fan" is a somewhat pejorative term referring to the fan of a college team who didn't attend said school. It may imply that they bought the school colors at Walmart or they shop at Walmart (as opposed to someplace else) or something else. This is a fan board, so "somehat pejorative" is to be expected in referring to rivals.

Kindly,
Sage
'Of course, I shop at Walmart too for good values in OTC meds and toiletries. I haven't seen any UNC apparel for sale here in Steamboat Springs'

[-jk]

As a vehement Duke fan and non-alum, I sense we have a big off-season discussion about "true fans" looming on the horizon. It seems to be an issue that has been skirted several times in recent weeks.


I for one refute "Walmart" status.

FWIW Julian/Julio of DBR fame isnt a Duke alum...

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

You certainly do not need to be an alum to be a "true fan" -- there are many here who prove that point. At least one well-respected moderator too, if not more.

In regard to uNC's situation, alums probably worry or are bothered more about an academic scandal than non-alums. Which is natural. Thus most uNC alums I know refer to this as an athletic scandal and are pissed at the administration, and most uNC non-alum fans I know refer to it as an academic scandal that is largely irrelevant.

I for one am happy to call it both. Or better yet, "The Scandal That Dean Built"

[jv001]

You certainly do not need to be an alum to be a "true fan" -- there are many here who prove that point. At least one well-respected moderator too, if not more.

In regard to uNC's situation, alums probably worry or are bothered more about an academic scandal than non-alums. Which is natural. Thus most uNC alums I know refer to this as an athletic scandal and are pissed at the administration, and most uNC non-alum fans I know refer to it as an academic scandal that is largely irrelevant.
I for one am happy to call it both. Or better yet, "The Scandal That Dean Built"

99% of cheat alums I know feel the same way and are upset with the whole mess. But the non-alum fans(almost 100%) feel that everyone is doing it. I really really really like your comment on Saint Dean. GoDuke!

[wsb3]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article62008172.html

“If I was going to leave I would have left the first day because I knew I was not involved (in the NCAA violations),” Williams said. “It’s pretty simple for me.”

Ole Roy.

Gee Roy while it is true that the cheating scandal was well in place when you arrived it continued on your watch- transforming ineligible players into eligible players.

[Atlanta Duke]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article62008172.html

“If I was going to leave I would have left the first day because I knew I was not involved (in the NCAA violations),” Williams said. “It’s pretty simple for me.”

Ole Roy.

Gee Roy while it is true that the cheating scandal was well in place when you arrived it continued on your watch- transforming ineligible players into eligible players.

Roy also reminded us yesterday of the greatest victim of these scurrilous rumors

"Think about what we've had to do the last three or four years here," Williams said. "We've had to put up with more stuff -- more negative recruiting -- than at any time in my career or at any time in any other coach's career that I ever talked to.

"So I'm thinking, that's just something else that now we've got to answer to."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14835368/roy-williams-north-carolina-tar-heels-wants-program-good-shape-retiring

[hudlow]

Soon Ole Roy will be speaking of himself in the third person...again.

[sagegrouse]

Roy also reminded us yesterday of the greatest victim of these scurrilous rumors

"Think about what we've had to do the last three or four years here," Williams said. "We've had to put up with more stuff -- more negative recruiting -- than at any time in my career or at any time in any other coach's career that I ever talked to.

"So I'm thinking, that's just something else that now we've got to answer to."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14835368/roy-williams-north-carolina-tar-heels-wants-program-good-shape-retiring

Let me translate the term of art, "negative recruiting:" Pointing out the truth that the UNC athletic program is a pig sty.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You certainly do not need to be an alum to be a "true fan" -- there are many here who prove that point. At least one well-respected moderator too, if not more.

In regard to uNC's situation, alums probably worry or are bothered more about an academic scandal than non-alums. Which is natural. Thus most uNC alums I know refer to this as an athletic scandal and are pissed at the administration, and most uNC non-alum fans I know refer to it as an academic scandal that is largely irrelevant.

I for one am happy to call it both. Or better yet, "The Scandal That Dean Built"

I appreciate the vote of confidence. Admittedly, I didn't start wearing Duke gear until I was almost 5 years old, so I'm a late adopter.

I just feel there's a growing sentiment on this board that might explode at some point regarding "true" fans.

[tbyers11]

I appreciate the vote of confidence. Admittedly, I didn't start wearing Duke gear until I was almost 5 years old, so I'm a late adopter.

I just feel there's a growing sentiment on this board that might explode at some point regarding "true" fans.

I am an alumnus, but I don't feel that sentiment is pervasive at all. It was brought up in the Women's basketball thread and quickly shot down by nearly all.

I equate the term WalMart fan with fair weather fan or front runner. As in team X is popular, I'm going to pick up their sweatshirt at WalMart and proclaim myself a huge fan. Being a "true" (non-WalMart) fan doesn't require alum status. Alum status typically means you have a long-standing relationship with the school and likely "truer" fandom, but it is by no means a prerequisite. If you are a big Duke fan (as nearly all who post on this board are) it doesn't matter, IMO, where you went to school. Unless it was UNC. Then there might have to be a re-education process and a loyalty test ;)

[Duke95]

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks a "true fan" is. Your heart knows.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I appreciate the vote of confidence. Admittedly, I didn't start wearing Duke gear until I was almost 5 years old, so I'm a late adopter.

I just feel there's a growing sentiment on this board that might explode at some point regarding "true" fans.

I bought my Duke gear from the Duke store (online), That makes me a "slightly above Walmart fan" I suppose. I'll take it!!! :)

[Nosbleuatu]

Not to drag the discussion of fandom further than necessary, but...

Another distinction I typically make is whether someone is a fan of the University, or just the basketball team. Alums tend to have a more holistic view of all things connected to the program (achievement as a student athlete, contributions to the local community, ethical treatment of players and staff, etc.), while "fair weather" fans may have little or no concern with anything but the enjoyment they receive from watching the games.

In all fairness, one of my good UNC friends enjoys pointing out any deficiency or setback suffered by Duke University. As annoying as it is, I have to respect his commitment to the rivalry.

[BLPOG]

I appreciate the vote of confidence. Admittedly, I didn't start wearing Duke gear until I was almost 5 years old, so I'm a late adopter.

I just feel there's a growing sentiment on this board that might explode at some point regarding "true" fans.

True fans are the ones who kept watching when the team was down 10 with 54 seconds left. True fans are the ones who sat in freezing rain in Wallace Wade waiting for an inexorable defeat, only to engage in the same self-abuse the next fall. True fans are the ones who, lacking the knowledge of the sages who've been watching even longer, spend an inordinate amount of time reading DBR, picking up history and insight.

I've never met a non-alumnus (/family) member who cheered for Duke but couldn't carry on a competent conversation about the basketball team, or who adopted the team in the last week. I'm sure they're out there, but I certainly don't worry about them being on forum.


Edit: I think Duke95 said it best above regarding a "true" fan: "Your heart knows."

[CDu]

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks a "true fan" is. Your heart knows.


You certainly do not need to be an alum to be a "true fan" -- there are many here who prove that point. At least one well-respected moderator too, if not more.

In regard to uNC's situation, alums probably worry or are bothered more about an academic scandal than non-alums. Which is natural. Thus most uNC alums I know refer to this as an athletic scandal and are pissed at the administration, and most uNC non-alum fans I know refer to it as an academic scandal that is largely irrelevant.

I for one am happy to call it both. Or better yet, "The Scandal That Dean Built"

Let me also join in on the "doesn't matter how you came to be a fan" boat. As a small, private school, Duke certainly isn't in a place to suggest only alums are "true" fans. The VAST majority of our fanbase are non-alums. One might argue that the non-alums are potentially even BETTER fans of the team because they CHOSE to be Duke fans rather than becoming Duke fans by virtue of attending the school. As one who didn't become a Duke fan until my teens, I would feel very uncomfortable badmouthing life-long Duke fans just because they didn't go to Duke. Those fans are more rooted in the Devils than I am, and deserve to be treated as such.

I also wouldn't go too far down the "how silly that their fans don't know their players" argument. I would not be surprised if most casual fans were that way for ANY team, including Duke. I know my wife and mom fall in that category, yet they will passionately cheer for Duke whenever Duke plays.

Both Duke and UNC have a huge percentage of their fanbase that has no affiliation to the University. Both Duke and UNC have a ton of FABULOUS support from their fanbase that never set foot in either school's classrooms. And both schools also have a ton of casual fans who know very little about the team's players. That's just the way it is with college sports.

[tux]

I am an alumnus, but I don't feel that sentiment is pervasive at all. It was brought up in the Women's basketball thread and quickly shot down by nearly all.

I equate the term WalMart fan with fair weather fan or front runner. As in team X is popular, I'm going to pick up their sweatshirt at WalMart and proclaim myself a huge fan. Being a "true" (non-WalMart) fan doesn't require alum status. Alum status typically means you have a long-standing relationship with the school and likely "truer" fandom, but it is by no means a prerequisite. If you are a big Duke fan (as nearly all who post on this board are) it doesn't matter, IMO, where you went to school. Unless it was UNC. Then there might have to be a re-education process and a loyalty test ;)


I completely agree with your first point. I've never heard any Duke alums claim to be truer fans than non-alums.

But I do think the term "Walmart fan" goes slightly beyond just being "fair weather" or a "front-runner". It also touches on class and status. It's contrasting the more buttoned up UNC alums (khakis and blue dress shirts anyone?) with the *supposedly* less educated and less well off non-alums who sport somewhat cheesy (for lack of a better word) UNC gear sold around town... I.e., wearing tacky UNC gear an actual UNC alum is very very unlikely to wear. It's offensive, but I do think that's getting a bit closer to the truth of the matter.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

True fans are the ones who kept watching when the team was down 10 with 54 seconds left. True fans are the ones who sat in freezing rain in Wallace Wade waiting for an inexorable defeat, only to engage in the same self-abuse the next fall. True fans are the ones who, lacking the knowledge of the sages who've been watching even longer, spend an inordinate amount of time reading DBR, picking up history and insight.

I've never met a non-alumnus (/family) member who cheered for Duke but couldn't carry on a competent conversation about the basketball team, or who adopted the team in the last week. I'm sure they're out there, but I certainly don't worry about them being on forum.


Edit: I think Duke95 said it best above regarding a "true" fan: "Your heart knows."

I wasn't watching.... I was screaming at the radio. :D

[English]

99% of cheat alums I know feel the same way and are upset with the whole mess. But the non-alum fans(almost 100%) feel that everyone is doing it. I really really really like your comment on Saint Dean. GoDuke!

All of the NC alums I interact with, which is many, have compartmentalized the scandal very well WRT their own education and the value of their degree--that is, fake courses in AFAM/EXSS/Phil for athletes, etc. do not impact the value of their degrees in econ, poli sci, journalism, etc. They are also open about the fact that they, themselves, took multiple paper classes and would've taken more if the courses weren't already completely filled immediately with revenue athletes.

That said, I typically discuss these matters with those alums who follow sports intently, and those alums also espouse the "everyone does it, everyone has easy classes" mentality. Their greatest source of ire is that, at this point, it's abundantly clear that NC is far worse at cheating than everyone else. How else could you explain that, in a situation where everyone is cheating, NC is the subject of the greatest cheating scandal in NCAA history.

FWIW, they all also don't believe that Dean, Roy, Fedora knew. The subjects of Sylvia and Anson never come up, although I imagine those would be entertaining conversations.

[hudlow]

Not to drag the discussion of fandom further than necessary, but...

Another distinction I typically make is whether someone is a fan of the University, or just the basketball team. Alums tend to have a more holistic view of all things connected to the program (achievement as a student athlete, contributions to the local community, ethical treatment of players and staff, etc.), while "fair weather" fans may have little or no concern with anything but the enjoyment they receive from watching the games.

In all fairness, one of my good UNC friends enjoys pointing out any deficiency or setback suffered by Duke University. As annoying as it is, I have to respect his commitment to the rivalry.

Good point...When buying Duke memorabilia I try to make purchases that show I'm a sports fan and not an alum. I have all the respect for the university and especially high regards for the awesome medical facilities...

I don't think trying to convince anyone that being a Duke sports fan since coaches wore plaid bell-bottomed pants is going to make a difference one way or the other.

Life is too short to support losers...

GO DUKE!

[sagegrouse]

True fans are the ones who kept watching when the team was down 10 with 54 seconds left.

I confess -- I wavered. I had a group out to ski, and we had dinner reservations. I was really mad at the team when we were down ten and went upstairs to change clothes. Then the guys downstairs started hollering (they weren't even Duke fans). So I did see the last 30+ seconds and the OT.


True fans are the ones who sat in freezing rain in Wallace Wade waiting for an inexorable defeat, only to engage in the same self-abuse the next fall.

True. I sat through a losing football game against Clemson in a driving rainstorm during the fall of 1961. (Hah! We still won the ACC that year.)


True fans are the ones who, lacking the knowledge of the sages who've been watching even longer, spend an inordinate amount of time reading DBR, picking up history and insight. I blush in modesty.

[Duke95]

Can we take the "who is a true fan" debate somewhere else?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I bought my Duke gear from the Duke store (online), That makes me a "slightly above Walmart fan" I suppose. I'll take it!!! :)
It's impossible to be a Walmart fan unless you are in Durham...that's the only WM that sells Duke gear in the country!

[devil84]

It's impossible to be a Walmart fan unless you are in Durham...that's the only WM that sells Duke gear in the country!

Seriously, THE ONLY Walmart that sells Duke gear is in Durham. Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Cary, and all the other Walmarts ALL carry UNC gear. Many, but not all, carry State and ECU gear. Ain't nothin' for Duke gear -- or any other school in the area. Although I did see about 10 National Championship t-shirts in the Cary store last year, but nothing since.

[Tommac]

Seriously, THE ONLY Walmart that sells Duke gear is in Durham. Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Cary, and all the other Walmarts ALL carry UNC gear. Many, but not all, carry State and ECU gear. Ain't nothin' for Duke gear -- or any other school in the area. Although I did see about 10 National Championship t-shirts in the Cary store last year, but nothing since.

The Walmart and Target stores in Alamance County carry Duke gear, not as much as the Tarhells but about the same as NC State.

[BLPOG]

Seriously, THE ONLY Walmart that sells Duke gear is in Durham. Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Cary, and all the other Walmarts ALL carry UNC gear. Many, but not all, carry State and ECU gear. Ain't nothin' for Duke gear -- or any other school in the area. Although I did see about 10 National Championship t-shirts in the Cary store last year, but nothing since.

While we're on the subject of merchandise/apparel in the UNC scandal thread...

Has anyone else noticed a decline in the number of people wearing UNC gear in his/her area? I doubt the effects have been particularly pronounced in North Carolina, but in the DC metropolitan area I have definitely noticed a decline starting around the time of the release of the Wainstein report (October 2014).

I still see Tar Heel gear fairly regularly, but far below what I remember. Am I nuts, or might the scandal be providing us some small measure of relief from that awful hue?

[English]

While we're on the subject of merchandise/apparel in the UNC scandal thread...

Has anyone else noticed a decline in the number of people wearing UNC gear in his/her area? I doubt the effects have been particularly pronounced in North Carolina, but in the DC metropolitan area I have definitely noticed a decline starting around the time of the release of the Wainstein report (October 2014).

I still see Tar Heel gear fairly regularly, but far below what I remember. Am I nuts, or might the scandal be providing us some small measure of relief from that awful hue?

Sadly, I'm still seeing that vile hue with equal regularity in my circles of DC, although the perpetrators have been far less vocal about the Carolina Way and its superiority to everyone else, ever. As far as reprieves go, that's a big one. And while there is no Walmart around in any reasonable proximity, there is a Target and it most certainly does NOT carry Duke gear. To be fair though, not much NC gear either...it's largely UMd apparel with traces of GW, GTown, and UVa.

[alteran]

If you are a big Duke fan (as nearly all who post on this board are) it doesn't matter, IMO, where you went to school. Unless it was UNC. Then there might have to be a re-education process and a loyalty test ;)

I was pre-indoctrinated against UNC. Innoculated, really. Test away!

And I got my degree three years before they started throwing them at you when you got stuck at the stoplights on Franklin Street.

[swood1000]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article62008172.html

“If I was going to leave I would have left the first day because I knew I was not involved (in the NCAA violations),” Williams said. “It’s pretty simple for me.”

Ole Roy.

Gee Roy while it is true that the cheating scandal was well in place when you arrived it continued on your watch- transforming ineligible players into eligible players.
I don't know if Roy's timeline is entirely under his own control. At one point during the Duke game he looked like he was having more than a little difficulty getting down-court.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgoOmXxLgfc&feature=youtu.be

[wsb3]

It's impossible to be a Walmart fan unless you are in Durham...that's the only WM that sells Duke gear in the country!

That is true for the Wilmington area. I don't recall ever seeing Duke stuff. Ton of that putrid shade of blue stuff but no Duke stuff. Gives me yet another reason to not like Walmart.

[sammy3469]

More Wainstein documents were dumped today:

http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/records/

And Page 3 of Item 63 shows that football coaches (Allen Mogridge was the TE coach) were keeping tabs on their athlete's grades.

[sammy3469]

It always cracks me up when they try to hide important e-mails (in this case a 2008 is in with a bunch of 2013 ones)...

5th page of this dump has Willingham making the recommendation on April 18, 2008 that they need to put in place an "easy" English class for athletes with SAT Verbal's below 400.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/url-carolinacommitment-storage/PR3-001.pdf

[madscavenger]

Hmmm. November seems to be missing. Wonder why (a little cherry picking maybe?)?

In any case, considering the characterization of the release, one might make the argument that they also intend it (along with other planted toothless chest pounding) to be utilized in their upcoming report to SAC as evidence of progress. Yet another sham when it comes to acknowledging cooperation, but worse a thinly veiled rejection of a challenge to their integrity. SAC has a mission. It's very existence is to protect against systematic corruption of specifically stated standards. They will have failed should they draw a new line in the sand for UNC. A diluted standard means diluted respect, diluted deterrence and in essence a diluted mission. That kick starts a journey down a slippery slope to obsolescence. Who is in charge, UNC or SAC? SAC has to act.

[DU82]

Re: "Wal-Mart"fans. I always understood the phrase as indicating a person was new to the area, wanted to root for a local team, went to Wal-Mart and found the predominant team's clothing choice and started being a "fan" of that team. For college teams, usually the primary state school, and in larger cities the "top" pro team (Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, etc.)

[lotusland]

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/02/23/roy-williams-explains-why-he-doesnt-want-to-leave-north-carolina-anytime-soon/
Maybe I'm reading to much into this but this seems like possibly a change in message:


“I love this place. If I was going to leave, I’d have left the first day because I knew I wasn’t involved,” Williams told reporters on Tuesday afternoon.

"I wasn't involved "is different than "move along, nothing to see here" or "Academic issue". Could this signal that UNC is negotiating with the NCAA and does not want to poke the snake by challenging their findings while the sanctions are being worked out?

[MarkD83]

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/02/23/roy-williams-explains-why-he-doesnt-want-to-leave-north-carolina-anytime-soon/
Maybe I'm reading to much into this but this seems like possibly a change in message:



"I wasn't involved "is different than "move along, nothing to see here" or "Academic issue". Could this signal that UNC is negotiating with the NCAA and does not want to poke the snake by challenging their findings while the sanctions are being worked out?

I think this isn't much different than in the Fall when everything was blamed on Women's basketball. However, the slight change is "MBB was not involved" to "I was not involved", which may indicate that people are starting to look out for themselves rather than trying to save the university (meaning both athletics and academics) from a penalty.

The next thing to wait for is what Hatchell starts to say.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I can't wait to see what little dougie has to say when Roy jumps ship after the season.

[oldnavy]

Not an Alum of Duke, although I did a fellowship at DUMC (I have a nice certificate from DUMC with my name on it!!) and took a class in bio-statistics there as part of that fellowship in infectious diseases. In fact I am an alum of UNC-CH.

But, here's the thing. I have probably attended more basketball and football games than most Duke Alums, since from the age of about 7 to 24 I went to almost every Duke home FB and Men's BB games at DIS, then CIS and WW. If you add them up, I would say that amounts to about 17 years of home games. Not to include a couple of away games at WF and the ACCT. I also have been to Maui to see the devils play. And I now hold FB season tickets, and get gifted a basketball ticket yearly for Christmas.

Even while attending class (yes, I did attend all of my pharmacy school classes at UNC ;)) I would go to Duke home games. I may have attended one UNC BB game in Carmichael with a friend, and I did attend the Duke UNC FB games in CH when they were played there.

I pulled for Duke during the early seventies and literally cried after the 8 point 17 seconds game in my backyard while throwing my basketball as hard as I could against the side of my house. Sticking with the team during those years alone should get you elected into the Duke fan Hall of Fame!!

Most of my family on my father's side are die hard Duke fans, and with the exception of an Uncle and one Cousin, none attended Duke.

So, I can tell you for a fact that there is a pretty large contingent of the most ardent and loyal fans Duke University has that never attended a single class at Duke University.

So, if anyone is tempted to judge someone as not being a true Duke fan, just because they didn't attend the University, please don't. Everyone has their own story.

[TKG]

As we learned in Poltergeist: "All are welcome."

[PackMan97]

Some more damaging emails being found by @bluedevilicous

This is pretty clear on so many fronts. Player didn't fail the LD/ADHD test. Can't get accomodations through LDS, can't get on Adderall. Trying to get him to report more symptoms and do a retest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcBDQQBUAAAKoG7.png:large

[BD80]

Not an Alum of Duke, ... In fact I am an alum of UNC-CH.

...

But, but, but ... You seem like such a nice, honest, interesting and intelligent person!

How is this possible? What is real? Which way is up?

I feel like the room is spinning, reality slipping from my grasp - OK, OK it never was firmly in hand


I have similar conversations with Steeler fans, many of whom have never been to Pittsburgh - but whose loyalty - or "fandom" - should never, ever be doubted. The test, in my mind, is dedication to the team, in good times and bad. Do you travel to see the team? Go to foul weather games? Go to games even when they are not winning, and stay to the end of the game?

You know, everything tar heel fans DON'T do.

[OldPhiKap]

Some more damaging emails being found by @bluedevilicous

This is pretty clear on so many fronts. Player didn't fail the LD/ADHD test. Can't get accomodations through LDS, can't get on Adderall. Trying to get him to report more symptoms and do a retest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcBDQQBUAAAKoG7.png:large

This is stunning.


Not an Alum of Duke, although I did a fellowship at DUMC (I have a nice certificate from DUMC with my name on it!!) and took a class in bio-statistics there as part of that fellowship in infectious diseases. In fact I am an alum of UNC-CH.

But, here's the thing. I have probably attended more basketball and football games than most Duke Alums, since from the age of about 7 to 24 I went to almost every Duke home FB and Men's BB games at DIS, then CIS and WW. If you add them up, I would say that amounts to about 17 years of home games. Not to include a couple of away games at WF and the ACCT. I also have been to Maui to see the devils play. And I now hold FB season tickets, and get gifted a basketball ticket yearly for Christmas.

Even while attending class (yes, I did attend all of my pharmacy school classes at UNC ;)) I would go to Duke home games. I may have attended one UNC BB game in Carmichael with a friend, and I did attend the Duke UNC FB games in CH when they were played there.

I pulled for Duke during the early seventies and literally cried after the 8 point 17 seconds game in my backyard while throwing my basketball as hard as I could against the side of my house. Sticking with the team during those years alone should get you elected into the Duke fan Hall of Fame!!

Most of my family on my father's side are die hard Duke fans, and with the exception of an Uncle and one Cousin, none attended Duke.

So, I can tell you for a fact that there is a pretty large contingent of the most ardent and loyal fans Duke University has that never attended a single class at Duke University.

So, if anyone is tempted to judge someone as not being a true Duke fan, just because they didn't attend the University, please don't. Everyone has their own story.

And this should put an end to the point on fandom I hope. (Not sure anyone is really arguing it, we all seem to generally agree so I hope we get back to hating on the cheaters here).

[bob blue devil]

washington and buck duke weren't duke alums either...

here (https://trustees.duke.edu/governing/mission.php) is duke's mission statement. it's a selfless and worthy mission. as far as i'm concerned, anybody who embraces and supports duke's mission is a "real" duke fan. i hold the inverse true as well.

and, yes, the cheaters have failed to take this approach.

[budwom]

The question is, is anyone (i.e. the NCAA) paying any attention to these new, remarkable allegations, or are they overwhelmed with the sheer volume
of documents and number of misdeeds? The whole learning disabilities scam seems to absolutely huge.

[OldPhiKap]

The question is, is anyone (i.e. the NCAA) paying any attention to these new, remarkable allegations, or are they overwhelmed with the sheer volume
of documents and number of misdeeds? The whole learning disabilities scam seems to absolutely huge.

FWIW, Manilishi (or whatever his name is) over at PackPride indicated a month or so ago that the work being done by Bluedevilicious on this was being noticed; not sure if he meant in Indianapolis or in DC because he mentioned both in the post IIRC. It's linked on one of these threads, although I can never get the search engine to perform in a practical manner (the only drawback on an otherwise great platform).

[alteran]

Not an Alum of Duke, although I did a fellowship at DUMC (I have a nice certificate from DUMC with my name on it!!) and took a class in bio-statistics there as part of that fellowship in infectious diseases. In fact I am an alum of UNC-CH.

See, what other Duke fans don't understand is... we've been behind enemy lines. We've experienced the horror... up close. We've seen what it does to people. The human toll. The depravity.

The clothes.

Oh, the humanity.

One need not fear that being at UNC made us sympathetic to them-- one should fear that it will make us too rabid against them.

[oldnavy]

See, what other Duke fans don't understand is... we've been behind enemy lines. We've experienced the horror... up close. We've seen what it does to people. The human toll. The depravity.

The clothes.

Oh, the humanity.

One need not fear that being at UNC made us sympathetic to them-- one should fear that it will make us too rabid against them.

Exactly!!!

I had of course dealt with UNC fans before going there (I lived in Durham while I attended UNC), but the arrogance permeates the entire University. I can honestly say, that I have never dealt with a group of "professionals" who held themselves in higher regard for no special reason than the UNC School of Pharmacy staff. There were a couple of exceptions, but only two that come to mind, the rest were basically... snobs.

The opposite was true at Campbell when I went back for my Pharm. D. They were some of the most down to earth, brilliant people I have ever met. Then when I did the fellowship at Duke with Dr Dan Sexton, and Dr Ralph Corey, et al.... I was blown away with how freaking crazy smart they were in particular since I worked closely with them, but everyone went out of their way to make me feel welcome. I loved my time there, as opposed to just tolerating my time at UNC...

[Indoor66]

Exactly!!!

I had of course dealt with UNC fans before going there (I lived in Durham while I attended UNC), but the arrogance permeates the entire University. I can honestly say, that I have never dealt with a group of "professionals" who held themselves in higher regard for no special reason than the UNC School of Pharmacy staff. There were a couple of exceptions, but only two that come to mind, the rest were basically... snobs.

The opposite was true at Campbell when I went back for my Pharm. D. They were some of the most down to earth, brilliant people I have ever met. Then when I did the fellowship at Duke with Dr Dan Sexton, and Dr Ralph Corey, et al... I was blown away with how freaking crazy smart they were in particular since I worked closely with them, but everyone went out of their way to make me feel welcome. I loved my time there, as opposed to just tolerating my time at UNC...

But, but, oldnavy, they ARE the unCheat! Always smaller than small.

[oldnavy]

But, but, oldnavy, they ARE the unCheat! Always smaller than small.

I despise the university of North Carolina. I have despised them since I was old enough to know what the emotion meant. I despised them before I went to school there, I despised them more while I was at school there, and I have grown to despise them more every year since.

If the university simply ceased to exist and disappeared from the face of the planet, I would celebrate it's demise, and dance on the scorched earth where it stood!

I refuse to drink out of my wife's UNC coffee cup in the morning even if it means that I have to get a dirty one out of the dishwasher and clean it by hand (not an easy chore prior to my first cup!)

I am proud of my UNC School of Pharmacy degree, simply because I busted my tail to earn it, and it was a good education (just not the elite experience they believe it is).

I am more proud of my Campbell Doctor of Pharmacy Degree, because I busted my tail to earn it AND I am proud to be a CU Alumnus. Give the two schools, I believe Campbell provides a better education.

My father wore a black arm band to my UNC graduation to silently protest that one of his off spring went to school there (it was a joke... sort of!)....

GTHC, GO DUKE!!

[PackMan97]

Here is another great email from the same 2006 time period. My guess is they tried to get away from the fake courses after the Auburn scandal hit in 2005. The result was changes to how they evaluated atheltes for LD/ADHD. See the "whatever criteria they used in the past" comment at the end of the email.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcElbuxUYAAxD4d.png

[devildeac]

I despise the university of North Carolina. I have despised them since I was old enough to know what the emotion meant. I despised them before I went to school there, I despised them more while I was at school there, and I have grown to despise them more every year since.

If the university simply ceased to exist and disappeared from the face of the planet, I would celebrate it's demise, and dance on the scorched earth where it stood!

I refuse to drink out of my wife's UNC coffee cup in the morning even if it means that I have to get a dirty one out of the dishwasher and clean it by hand (not an easy chore prior to my first cup!)

I am proud of my UNC School of Pharmacy degree, simply because I busted my tail to earn it, and it was a good education (just not the elite experience they believe it is).

I am more proud of my Campbell Doctor of Pharmacy Degree, because I busted my tail to earn it AND I am proud to be a CU Alumnus. Give the two schools, I believe Campbell provides a better education.

My father wore a black arm band to my UNC graduation to silently protest that one of his off spring went to school there (it was a joke... sort of!)...

GTHC, GO DUKE!!

Clear a space on Mt. Hatemore for this poster!