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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 80, Ga Tech 71 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-02-2016, 10:58 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

OldPhiKap
02-02-2016, 11:00 PM
Good win. Brutal schedule coming up. Fight, Blue Devils, fight.

6th Man
02-02-2016, 11:01 PM
Congrats to Coach Capel on a well coached game. Huge road win! Get well soon Coach K and Amile!

Emerrick
02-02-2016, 11:02 PM
Terrible ending to the first half. Total lack of awareness.

Great 3/4ths of a second half. We needed this one.

Ingram seemed quiet, Thornton is just too raw but has great promise, Grayson and Plumlee were beasts.

I hope Coach K is well.

CameronCrazy'11
02-02-2016, 11:02 PM
I'm still baffled by that halfcourt call on Thornton. Feels great to get a win.

archand1
02-02-2016, 11:03 PM
Tale of two halves. The man to man defense changed the energy in the second half. Thought the end game decision making from the guys was shaky, but happy with the win.

It was interesting, did anyone notice Grayson and Thornton having words? Appeared he got on Grayson for that last foul and Scheyer had to step in.

Troublemaker
02-02-2016, 11:03 PM
Proud of our guys and our coaches stepping up with Coach K out. I'm sure he's beaming right now.

Grayson kept us in the game with his 3s until we played (gasp!) very good man-to-man defense to win it after the zone got picked apart earlier in the game. (The Yellow Jackets had just played Syracuse in their previous game, so our zone must've been a breath of fresh air compared to Cuse's much, much better zone.)

We made a change to our man-to-man that I had been suggesting. Will discuss later.

Channing
02-02-2016, 11:04 PM
I think the call on DT was carrying, not over and back. It's a similar signal from the ref. DT had some great moments and really showed the quickness at times ... Also showed the complete mental breakdown end of 1st and 2nd half.

huey
02-02-2016, 11:06 PM
I'm still baffled by that halfcourt call on Thornton. Feels great to get a win.

I'll second this. We going back to fundamentals in the last minute? The swallow the whistle last minute?


Great second half (minus last few minutes).

Channing
02-02-2016, 11:07 PM
Grayson is suffering JJ treatment his senior year. He gets grabbed and held incessantly and just doesn't get the call. It seemed to frustrate him down the stretch

mattman91
02-02-2016, 11:10 PM
Tale of two halves. The man to man defense changed the energy in the second half. Thought the end game decision making from the guys was shaky, but happy with the win.

It was interesting, did anyone notice Grayson and Thornton having words? Appeared he got on Grayson for that last foul and Scheyer had to step in.

I noticed. I hit rewind and watched in slow motion. Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.

AZLA
02-02-2016, 11:10 PM
I think the call on DT was carrying, not over and back. It's a similar signal from the ref. DT had some great moments and really showed the quickness at times ... Also showed the complete mental breakdown end of 1st and 2nd half.

yup, it was a carry and the right call, it gave him an advantage to get between the two defenders

CDu
02-02-2016, 11:10 PM
Whew!

Hope Coach K gets better quick. Great job by Coach C in his place.

The game in some ways came down to the two teams' 3pt shooting stars. Ours (Allen) shot out of his mind from 3 (7-10), while theirs (Smith) had an off-night.

As expected, we really struggled defending their bigs in the first half. As not expected, switching to man really changed things. Credit to Plumlee and Jeter for handling the assignments against Jacobs and Mitchell. Neither was effective at all in the second half, which surprised me (those two guys are legit). It helped that their guards were awful. Georges-Hunt couldn't buy a shot, their marksman Adam Smith couldn't shoot tonight (aside from a two-minute stretch), and Jackson thought for some reason he could shoot 3s (0-6). They panicked and got away from their bread and butter, and it cost them.

Great second half for Thornton after a shaky first half.

Alen was amazing. He willed the team to the win.

Plumlee did some yeoman's work inside.

Kudos to Matt Jones for his defense on Georges-Hunt.

Survival. Hopefully Jeter and Thornton can build on this game.

AZLA
02-02-2016, 11:11 PM
Really liked what we saw from Ingram inside with rebounding, affecting shots, and a couple blocks

DUKIE V(A)
02-02-2016, 11:11 PM
Gritty second half effort. Every road win in the ACC is beautiful.

Interesting stat: This was Georgia Tech's largest margin of defeat to this point in the ACC season.

archand1
02-02-2016, 11:15 PM
I noticed. I hit rewind and watched in slow motion. Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.

I feel like Coach K made a mental note of that from his bed. Love the fire, but that's not what I want to see from a team leader.

FerryFor50
02-02-2016, 11:21 PM
Again, I think the strategy this season with the depleted roster is to zone up the first half and stay within striking distance.

GT shot 61% in the first half, many on easy layups. Duke stuck with the zone and only trailed by 4 at the half. But they also only had 2 guys with 2 fouls (Jeter was one of them, of course).

I liked the strategy that Capel used - play the reserve bigs more often and for longer stretches. Get MP3 extra rest to allow him to stay aggressive on the boards and on defense. And it paid off - Jeter had his best game in a while, fouls notwithstanding. (Though his first two were questionable)

The switch to man to man forced GT into tough shots, plus GT helped Duke out with some terrible shot selection. The bigs were negated by the guards who kept jacking up contested, off balance 3s.

Allen was sensational, but could have had a bigger game. Too bad the freedom of movement rules were, yet again, ignored off the ball. Of course, the refs saw the push off on Allen for the offensive foul. Eagle eyes, there. And then he manages to foul out on a flop by GT on another inbounds where he's getting mugged and then on the defense where GT initiated contact off the ball (where there was very little).

Ingram seemed out of sorts on offense. Not sure what was up with him. But he played solid D and rebounded pretty well.

Thornton played his best game in a while, but he made another boneheaded decision to shoot a long 2 point shot at the end of a half in transition where Duke could have had the final possession. He's gotta knock that off. He also got absolutely leveled on an illegal screen, where Jacobs was moving all the way into the contact and then gave a little extra on the screen - then had the nerve to stare at DT like he was some tough guy.

Found it odd that Luke only played 15 minutes while Jones and Ingram played 39. Given the short bench, you'd think we'd want to keep them a little fresher.

Jones looked like he hurt his hand at the end of the game on a rebounding scrum. Hopefully it was just a jammed finger.

Just glad they escaped with the win.

Newton_14
02-02-2016, 11:25 PM
Big win for multiple reasons. Held own with the zone in Half 1 to prevent foul trouble and conserve some energy, then real Duke defense in Half 2 which Tech had no real answer for. (The last 3 minutes notwithstanding! Those 3 minutes were not Duke basketball and the refs were horrible).

The good:
Grayson. Nothing more to say. The ridiculous made easy despite getting mugged off the ball all night long. He needed some help and finally got some late in the 2nd half which led to the 17 point lead vs Grayson keeping us up 4-5 by himself on offense. The kid is just sick.
2nd half man to man was really good. Gone was the dunkfest/layup drill and it looked to me as though Ga Tech was like "oh, they aint in zone no more. what do we do? what do we do?" They only had 15 points in the 2nd half with like 5 minutes left. That is really good defense. Duke defense.
The other really good thing was Chase getting real minutes and making small, but real contributions, and Vrank getting his first taste of ACC play. I am the resident "Terp'in Prime" so I have no trouble being irritated with how Chase and Vrank were reff'ed. I have been watching ACC hoops for 46 years and one constant remains. Freshman Bigs who are in development and non-stars (and sometimes potential stars, see: Shavlik Randolph) get reff'd so unfairly it's hard to watch. The first foul on Chase was on Grayson if there was a foul at all, the second and third foul calls on Chase were fouls that do not get called on say, a Hanswalk... and then the 3 second call on Vrank followed by the supposed "hold" were just laughable. The kid did not sniff the benefit of the doubt out there. Maybe, just maybe, he could have made a positive contribution if allowed to play by the same rules as the other bigs on the floor. Rant over.


Good coaching by Capel with great supporting help from Sir Badass and Scheyer. Well done there fellas. During the semi-meltdown at the end, he yelled at them during the TO "YOU HAVE TO FINISH!!"

On the semi, almost, meltdown... I have a love/hate relationship going with Derryck's play. My gosh. I love the kid and he is going to be a wonderful player, but he needs sooooo much improvement in the art of game management, court awareness, and leading as a PG. Sooo much improvement needed there. The really bad shot on our last possession of the 1st Half, when we should have been holding for the last shot, and I put partial blame for that on Matt who should not have been pushing it to begin with. There was a 2 second difference in the clocks. As a PG, you have to be aware of time and situation at all times. It is the first requirement of the job. Then during those final 3 minutes, he had the backcourt violation and I believe two live ball turnovers with bad passes. Again, sorry, but a PG shoulders more blame for those errors than any other player. They are the one who are supposed to be in control out there and helping their teammates not make those type mistakes. But, he is young, has a lot of "youngness" and inexperience around him right now, which for sure factors in. I love it when he attacks the basket under control, because when he does, man can the dude finish with the best of them. He gave us a lot of big baskets tonight doing that, and hit what I felt should have been the dagger 3 pointer. It was still a huge shot and gave us the extra breathing room we needed at the end, but their comeback still should not have even gotten started.

I was watching the game on pins and needles, nervous as heck, so very happy with the win. Overall a very solid performance on this journey without Amile. Hopefully they can carry that over into Saturday and get another win against NC State. We for sure need it.

Go Duke!!

KandG
02-02-2016, 11:27 PM
Can't say enough about how good the team looks when Thornton is on. His quickness & penetration open up things on offense, and his defensive activity (especially his hands) gives our defense more bite up top (at least when we're playing man). Yes, Derryck ended the first and second halves pretty badly (was ready to throw the remote at the wall with the total lack of clock awareness at the end of the first), but I thought he was huge in the early part of each half, especially the second.

A bit shocked to see Jeter and Vrankovic get the burn they did, even for the tiny segments they did appear. Jeter -- very, very incrementally -- is starting to make progress, though giving up and-1s each time he was in indicates how much of a work in progress he remains. Nevertheless, I imagine the small rest Mason got helped, because he was hugely active on both ends of the floor.

Outstanding win on the road, especially considering how much Brandon struggled on offense and how little of a factor Matt was on that end as well. The rope a dope we play in the first halves of games with the zone remains a necessary evil to avoid foul trouble, but I liked the energy in the second half with the man to man. Hope we're able to see more of it in succeeding games.

91devil
02-02-2016, 11:30 PM
Thought the switch to man to man defense was a big turning point. In the second half, GT started taking contested shots, which were missed, which led to bad shots, which were also missed. The Jacket guards generally did not play well tonight, other than some strong moments by Georges-Hunt in the first half and some late game scoring by Adam Smith.

As others have stated, this seemed like DT's best game. The second half offense was run well, with spacing and good distribution. There weren't many "one pass then drive" possessions. I think DT should get credit for that. He only had two turnovers (team only had ten, half of those in the last few minutes).

It seemed like the big second half run was made with a six man rotation, and that sixth man was Chase Jeter (not Luke Kennard). Luke with only fifteen minutes tonight.

Best wishes for a healthy recovery for Coach K. Nice job tonight, Coach Capel.

dukelion
02-02-2016, 11:33 PM
I noticed. I hit rewind and watched in slow motion. Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.

Getting the sense that DT isn't the most popular player on the team. He seems left out at times on the sidelines and the other players don't react too enthusiastically when he makes a play. Case in point....his nice "and one" in the second half was a huge play but only Marshall (who was closest to him) celebrated with him......MJ and GA barely acknowledged it.

Also, the excellent Duke Blue Planet vids that follow victories rarely feature DT. This seems odd since in years past it usually featured most players a fair amount of the time.

Newton_14
02-02-2016, 11:41 PM
I noticed. I hit rewind and watched in slow motion. Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.


I feel like Coach K made a mental note of that from his bed. Love the fire, but that's not what I want to see from a team leader.

While I would rather not see it either, it happens on every team in sports. It just does. Emotions are high, teammates differ on something that happens, or whatever, words are exchanged, sometimes blows, and afterwards, they hug, make up and go on. I hate it got caught on camera, and hate it happened at all, but its not something to worry about or make a huge deal out of. I said the exact same thing to a coach one time who was getting on me for a bonehead play that I was already getting on myself on. I apologized after the game, we hugged/made up and then celebrated the victory.

Grayson took a beating out there tonight, got little reward for it, got called for iffy stuff that fouled him out of the game in the middle of Duke playing give away, and Derryck just had 2-3 bonehead plays himself. Both guys are emotional. Grayson should have been smarter with 4 fouls, Derryck should have been smarter, it's just two guys that don't need to be giving each other advice at the moment in time. Guarantee you they were fine in the locker room. Hurley and Laettner had those type moments more than once or twice. It worked out ok I think.

Furniture
02-02-2016, 11:43 PM
We scored 80 so we win. DT had a great game. The criticism he is getting by several on this board reminds me of Quinn Cooks first years.
Many have said Brandon didn't have a good game I just think the ball was rolling for him. He looked really focused to me out there. Double double too...
It was great to see that one of the runs we had was with four freshmen...Jeter is improving.

pamtar
02-02-2016, 11:46 PM
It seemed like the big second half run was made with a six man rotation, and that sixth man was Chase Jeter (not Luke Kennard). Luke with only fifteen minutes tonight.

Which I think is probably a good thing for now. It seems like Luke is one of those guys who needs shots to get going. Is it really worth him going 1-5 early so he can go 4-12 on the game? We've got good backcourt play, we lack depth up front. I think Kapel made a great call rotating the bigs rather than forcing a small lineup. 15 minutes for Luke is just enough to give Matt and Grayson some rest. If he's on, leave him in. If not, let the big guys get some burn.

archand1
02-02-2016, 11:51 PM
While I would rather not see it either, it happens on every team in sports. It just does. Emotions are high, teammates differ on something that happens, or whatever, words are exchanged, sometimes blows, and afterwards, they hug, make up and go on. I hate it got caught on camera, and hate it happened at all, but its not something to worry about or make a huge deal out of. I said the exact same thing to a coach one time who was getting on me for a bonehead play that I was already getting on myself on. I apologized after the game, we hugged/made up and then celebrated the victory.

Grayson took a beating out there tonight, got little reward for it, got called for iffy stuff that fouled him out of the game in the middle of Duke playing give away, and Derryck just had 2-3 bonehead plays himself. Both guys are emotional. Grayson should have been smarter with 4 fouls, Derryck should have been smarter, it's just two guys that don't need to be giving each other advice at the moment in time. Guarantee you they were fine in the locker room. Hurley and Laettner had those type moments more than once or twice. It worked out ok I think.

Yeah, I agree, we've all been there in sports. I think it's not a huge deal, just one of this K will use as a teaching moment like he did with Bobby, and like he says he's touched on with Grayson. As was said by K about Christian, Grayson's fire can burn your house down, or keep it warm for you. I think he's kept it pretty warm so far.

Newton_14
02-02-2016, 11:53 PM
We scored 80 so we win. DT had a great game. The criticism he is getting by several on this board reminds me of Quinn Cooks first years.
Many have said Brandon didn't have a good game I just think the ball was rolling for him. He looked really focused to me out there. Double double too...
It was great to see that one of the runs we had was with four freshmen...Jeter is improving.
No one is saying the kid is terrible or cant play. I gave very fair constructive criticism of his play tonight, without being destructively negative. The constructive criticism is very much warranted. Quinn is a great comparison actually. I think Quinn would be the first to tell you he made a lot of mistakes on the floor his first couple of years while he was developing into the player he became. Derryck will develop into a very good/great player but I find nothing unfair about saying he is not a great player right now.

The Bobby Hurley's and Tyus Jones's are very rare, which is why we should marvel at them when we have them, but even Hurley made a ton of bonehead type plays all of his freshman yr and the first part of his Sophomore year.

Derryck will be fine. He just has a lot of growing to do most notably in court awareness and controlling games as a PG.

Duke76
02-02-2016, 11:54 PM
While I would rather not see it either, it happens on every team in sports. It just does. Emotions are high, teammates differ on something that happens, or whatever, words are exchanged, sometimes blows, and afterwards, they hug, make up and go on. I hate it got caught on camera, and hate it happened at all, but its not something to worry about or make a huge deal out of. I said the exact same thing to a coach one time who was getting on me for a bonehead play that I was already getting on myself on. I apologized after the game, we hugged/made up and then celebrated the victory.

Grayson took a beating out there tonight, got little reward for it, got called for iffy stuff that fouled him out of the game in the middle of Duke playing give away, and Derryck just had 2-3 bonehead plays himself. Both guys are emotional. Grayson should have been smarter with 4 fouls, Derryck should have been smarter, it's just two guys that don't need to be giving each other advice at the moment in time. Guarantee you they were fine in the locker room. Hurley and Laettner had those type moments more than once or twice. It worked out ok I think.

was at the game and didn't notice any of that,,,but what I did notice was the pushing and pulling on Grayson, was a very physical game and the refs just swallowing their whistles.

I thought the boys were very slick tonight, just very polished with their offensive sets. new plays and for the first time I saw JJ in Grayson, they were calling his number exclusively in the second half to start and there was none of this pump faking...he was just going straight up with it and just love those sets when you see the guys setting the screens...you gotta be in shape to run those plays and make those shots...I'd rather live and die by Grayson and Ingram...Ingram was a beast on the defensive boards as was Marshall...I think they used the off time to really hone in their offensive sets...was a really big Duke crowd tonight, was impressed with that as well..."Let's go Duke" was roaring at about the 7 minute mark after that big run by us..

maybe it was the team we played against tonight...but I think we advanced a little in team and player development...also thought Derryck had his best game with even the bad pass in the second half and the quick shot at the 1 minute mark at end of first half...anyway, also great theatre to see our boys live...the only downer is the game seemed like it lasted for all of 5 minutes.

FerryFor50
02-02-2016, 11:57 PM
No one is saying the kid is terrible or cant play. I gave very fair constructive criticism of his play tonight, without being destructively negative. The constructive criticism is very much warranted. Quinn is a great comparison actually. I think Quinn would be the first to tell you he made a lot of mistakes on the floor his first couple of years while he was developing into the player he became. Derryck will develop into a very good/great player but I find nothing unfair about saying he is not a great player right now.

The Bobby Hurley's and Tyus Jones's are very rare, which is why we should marvel at them when we have them, but even Hurley made a ton of bonehead type plays all of his freshman yr and the first part of his Sophomore year.

Derryck will be fine. He just has a lot of growing to do most notably in court awareness and controlling games as a PG.

Coaches always would rather you make physical errors than mental ones. Physical ones happen - missed shots, errant passes.

It's the mental ones that are within your control. Knowing who you're passing to, when to shoot, when to pull it back out. It's magnified when you're a PG.

archand1
02-03-2016, 12:00 AM
I saw in the presser, Capel said Duke didn't walk through a single man to man play. I give him a ton of credit for making the adjustment and trying a few wrinkles.

Steven43
02-03-2016, 12:42 AM
DT showed the complete mental breakdown end of 1st and 2nd half.
What complete mental breakdown? Could you explain?

Steven43
02-03-2016, 12:45 AM
Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.

At least he said "please".

gotoguy
02-03-2016, 12:54 AM
I was fortunate to view the game in person from just behind the Tech bench and must say the Ingram was a beast on the defensive glass and in the lane helping to block or alter many shots. His was a terrific performance. Kudos to Marshall also. Nice second half excepting the last two minutes

HK Dukie
02-03-2016, 12:57 AM
I noticed. I hit rewind and watched in slow motion. Grayson said "would you please shut the f*** up" then gave him a big push in the chest. I didn't like that.

I have no problem with this at all, on the contrary I love the fire. Grayson put up 27 and his last three fouls were all BS. That wasn't the time for Thornton to get in Grayson's grill.

OZ
02-03-2016, 01:42 AM
I have no problem with this at all, on the contrary I love the fire. Grayson put up 27 and his last three fouls were all BS. That wasn't the time for Thornton to get in Grayson's grill.

In all fairness to Thornton, we really don't know what he said.
Grayson, didn't score the last 7-8 minutes; had a few shots (he usually makes) bounce off; got roughed up a few times while driving to the basket (that were not called); made a bad pass; and was called for two fouls (one total bs). When he came to the bench, he was obviously not happy and seemed to be trying to explain things to Scheyer. At that point DT looked as if he were trying to console Grayson and placed a hand on his chest. Perhaps, he was just trying to make light of the situation and was ragging Grayson a bit. Whatever he said, Grayson was clearly in no mood for it.
But as has been said, this happens all the time in every sport. Thornton will learn when to jump in and when to keep a lid on it. However, in spite of his rushed shot at the end of the first half and his couple of second half turn overs, he had a good game; and I am not sure we would have won without him. Its remarkable how the shot and a couple of turn overs are so vividly recalled while his ball handling and some incredible shots go unmentioned. He's learning.

BigWayne
02-03-2016, 03:33 AM
I think the call on DT was carrying, not over and back. It's a similar signal from the ref. DT had some great moments and really showed the quickness at times ... Also showed the complete mental breakdown end of 1st and 2nd half.

Yes it was carrying. Len and his buddy got it wrong. It was a severe case of carrying.

BigWayne
02-03-2016, 03:37 AM
Again, I think the strategy this season with the depleted roster is to zone up the first half and stay within striking distance.



The combination of the zone and the way the game was called in the first half kept us out of foul trouble so we had the opportunity to play man in the 2nd half.

NashvilleDevil
02-03-2016, 06:32 AM
Getting the sense that DT isn't the most popular player on the team. He seems left out at times on the sidelines and the other players don't react too enthusiastically when he makes a play. Case in point...his nice "and one" in the second half was a huge play but only Marshall (who was closest to him) celebrated with him...MJ and GA barely acknowledged it.

Also, the excellent Duke Blue Planet vids that follow victories rarely feature DT. This seems odd since in years past it usually featured most players a fair amount of the time.

I believe you're trying to see something that isn't there.

fuse
02-03-2016, 07:14 AM
Really liked how Capel owned the game and made the team his.
The decision on man to man, and the play of Jeter and Vrankovic may give K some food for thought.

Everybody is pretty hard on Thornton.
Most of the time we appear to be a better team with him on the floor.
I still marvel a bit at how quick he is, with his play against Cat Barber in the State game.

It's a shame DT's time comes at Kennard's expense.
DT's style gives us a wrinkle that seems to keep the other team's D honest.

A well needed victory. Here's hoping this win is the start of a long streak!

Saratoga2
02-03-2016, 07:18 AM
Not to repeat a lot of what has been said about Thornton except his end of half and end of game play were not helpful to Duke. Derryck needs to review the game replay to see where he had made mistakes that hurt the team. Grayson also seemed to be very frustrated with getting bumped and when he retaliated he got the fouls. Maybe there was a lot of talking going on and the refs were watching Grayson because of it. It was like both lost track of the goal of finishing the game. I was hoping that Luke would be brought in to stabilize the play, as he is not turnover prone and is a great FT shooter. When he was brought in the game appeared to settle down. Luke seems to disappear offensively and needs to be a meaningful part of the offense when in the game. Probably why he played so little.

I thought Brandon played excellent interior defense despite his frail body. He gets into rebounding position and also really contests shots when in the game. With a few more pounds on him he will make an outstanding pro.

I have been wondering about the big man situation. Vrank did finally get into a game. The guy is really big and is pretty athletic. Clearly he doesn't have the kind of game awareness yet to contribute but there is promise with him. The 3 second violation, the call for essentially holding inside and another call all should be items he can overcome with more experience. Interesting Sean got no PT, maybe its his knees. Chase did have some good moments and it appeared to help MP3 as his energy level was good in the second half.

Our zone in the first half was not good. MP3 is not the quick shot blocker needed to make the 2-3 zone work. GT had a field day scoring on us and if Grayson hadn't been on fire it could have been a huge hole to dig out of. All in all it was a good win on the road in an ACC game. Chase and Derryck have shown improvement and Amile can't be too far from ready. Need one more win before going into the meat grinder portion of the schedule.

Atlanta Duke
02-03-2016, 07:30 AM
Really liked how Capel owned the game and made the team his.

Capel borrowed the keys to the car last night - at some point it looks like he will be getting title to the car

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2016, 07:59 AM
Capel borrowed the keys to the car last night - at some point it looks like he will be getting title to the car

I also saw it as a bit of an audition for Capel. I look forward to seeing him as HC once K retires after his 15th championship in 2025.

Did anyone else's heart go into their stomach in the last minute when Matt Jones went down and came up holding his hand?

Hope he's okay.

TruBlu
02-03-2016, 08:08 AM
Grayson is suffering JJ treatment his senior year. He gets grabbed and held incessantly and just doesn't get the call. It seemed to frustrate him down the stretch

Spot on! He does get his fair share of calls when the ball is in his hands and he is driving. But when moving without the ball, he is getting mugged with no protection from the refs.

I keep hoping that the refs will notice and start calling the fouls. I also kept hoping the same thing with JJ, but it never happened.

Not expecting it to happen now, either. Hope I'm wrong.

left_hook_lacey
02-03-2016, 08:09 AM
Really liked how Capel owned the game and made the team his.
The decision on man to man, and the play of Jeter and Vrankovic may give K some food for thought.

Everybody is pretty hard on Thornton.
Most of the time we appear to be a better team with him on the floor.
I still marvel a bit at how quick he is, with his play against Cat Barber in the State game.

It's a shame DT's time comes at Kennard's expense.
DT's style gives us a wrinkle that seems to keep the other team's D honest.

A well needed victory. Here's hoping this win is the start of a long streak!

Couldnt' agree more. I can't believe the playing time of Jeter and Vrankovic isn't being discussed more. That was an absolute ballsy move, and the correct one if you ask me. Vrankovic didn't look lost or even a liability for that matter. Jeter made a couple of silly fouls but helped more than he hurt. I'll take a rested Plumlee and/or Ingram down the stretch any day of the week. We have 7 burger boys on this team, and servicable role players, not to mention the greatest coach in the game. So saying we have a depleted roster irks me and is an insult to the other guys on the team. Time to start using them and make a run. Especially considering the stretch we're about to endure just before tournament time.


As for Thornton, I also agree that we are better with him on the floor. He is showing great strides in his confidence and decision making. Add that to the elite quickness and ball-handling that is already present, and we have a game-changing point guard leading the way. We become a different animal with a true point guard on the floor that can break down the defense. Keep up the good work Thornton.

oldnavy
02-03-2016, 08:14 AM
I believe you're trying to see something that isn't there.

Also, we have to remember that DT got to the team late. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for him leaving HS early, coming to Duke, having to learn the system, having to make new friends, playing on a national stage every game, having to adjust to college and living on his own, etc... he really should still be in high school...

Give him some time and the team some time to bond, they will all be fine.

Billy Dat
02-03-2016, 08:15 AM
Great win. Every win is so huge right now.

In terms of DT and the end of the first half, I believe he streaked past Capel, right past the bench, and Capel yelled something right in his ear. Are we sure Capel knew the exact time and didn't yell "2 for 1"? I ask because DT went down and took a very quick, 2 for 1 type shot. I know I was thinking 2 for 1 as he was crossing half court and then I saw the clock. Had there been another 8 seconds on the clock, 2 for 1 was the call. As such, I didn't think it was as boneheaded, it was close to a 2 for 1 situation from a clock perspective. DT getting his PG reps this year is big, he's gonna be ready to rock from the jump next year.

I thought Ingram actually played really well on offense, he just didn't finish a lot of plays. We have to remember that Brandon's threat on offense allows everything else to happen. Despite his missing a bunch of close shots, he didn't lose his edge and he kept attacking and shooting helping us maintain our floor balance and keeping the defense honest. I love how, overall, we went at Lammers no matter who he was guarding, even when it was MP3 in the post (who abused him on a McHale-esque pivot/up fake sequence). That's the sign of a smart offensive squad.

As for Kennard, I think our need to get size on the floor with Jeter/Vrank and Thornton's play ate into his minutes.

Matt Jones, the dude is like wallpaper in the best sense of the word, you sometimes don't even notice that he's out there yet his presence has an immensely important impact on the entire environment. Hmm, why do I feel so happy in this room? Ah, it's the wallpaper.

As for Grayson - BEAST! I understand his explosive exchange with DT because that dude is LOCKED IN and intense as heck and seems like the guy who best understands that the team, as currently constructed, relies on him more than anyone else to win. In that way, I think he best exemplifies the fire of his coach who seems to have (for at least last night) burned himself out trying to study every angle that could help his team get the next W. I think he stokes himself into a frenzy for these games and it's got to be tough to turn that off...kind of like how we expect NFL players to be gentlemen the minute the whistle blows a play dead. Really? They are trained to basically kill each other and that emotion is supposed to just dissipate on command? Keep the fires burning, Grayson, we need every last JOULE, every SCOVILLE, every last BTU!!!!!!!!

CDu
02-03-2016, 08:23 AM
Great win. Every win is so huge right now.

In terms of DT and the end of the first half, I believe he streaked past Capel, right past the bench, and Capel yelled something right in his ear. Are we sure Capel knew the exact time and didn't yell "2 for 1"? I ask because DT went down and took a very quick, 2 for 1 type shot. I know I was thinking 2 for 1 as he was crossing half court and then I saw the clock. Had there been another 8 seconds on the clock, 2 for 1 was the call. As such, I didn't think it was as boneheaded, it was close to a 2 for 1 situation from a clock perspective. DT getting his PG reps this year is big, he's gonna be ready to rock from the jump next year.

I thought Ingram actually played really well on offense, he just didn't finish a lot of plays. We have to remember that Brandon's threat on offense allows everything else to happen. Despite his missing a bunch of close shots, he didn't lose his edge and he kept attacking and shooting helping us maintain our floor balance and keeping the defense honest. I love how, overall, we went at Lammers no matter who he was guarding, even when it was MP3 in the post (who abused him on a McHale-esque pivot/up fake sequence). That's the sign of a smart offensive squad.

As for Kennard, I think our need to get size on the floor with Jeter/Vrank and Thornton's play ate into his minutes.

Matt Jones, the dude is like wallpaper in the best sense of the word, you sometimes don't even notice that he's out there yet his presence has an immensely important impact on the entire environment. Hmm, why do I feel so happy in this room? Ah, it's the wallpaper.

As for Grayson - BEAST! I understand his explosive exchange with DT because that dude is LOCKED IN and intense as heck and seems like the guy who best understands that the team, as currently constructed, relies on him more than anyone else to win. In that way, I think he best exemplifies the fire of his coach who seems to have (for at least last night) burned himself out trying to study every angle that could help his team get the next W. I think he stokes himself into a frenzy for these games and it's got to be tough to turn that off...kind of like how we expect NFL players to be gentlemen the minute the whistle blows a play dead. Really? They are trained to basically kill each other and that emotion is supposed to just dissipate on command? Keep the fires burning, Grayson, we need every last JOULE, every SCOVILLE, every last BTU!!!!!!!!

We got the ball with 36 seconds left. There was no chance at a 2-for-1. My guess is he yelled "1 shot". If Capel did say 2-for-1, that was a mistake. Would have needed at least 10 more seconds for that. At least.

NashvilleDevil
02-03-2016, 08:45 AM
We got the ball with 36 seconds left. There was no chance at a 2-for-1. My guess is he yelled "1 shot". If Capel did say 2-for-1, that was a mistake. Would have needed at least 10 more seconds for that. At least.

He will learn. I think part of it with DT is he is pressing to make an impact because he missed the summer. He carried Duke for stretches in the 2nd half and his ability to get in the lane will benefit this team. He could end up being a huge asset this year but next year we could see a William Avery type jump.

CDu
02-03-2016, 08:55 AM
He will learn. I think part of it with DT is he is pressing to make an impact because he missed the summer. He carried Duke for stretches in the 2nd half and his ability to get in the lane will benefit this team. He could end up being a huge asset this year but next year we could see a William Avery type jump.

Yeah, I definitely don't mean to bash Thornton. He's a freshman who missed all of summer work and was not known as a true PG (more of a lead guard) anyway. He should get better with time. Just that this was a mistake, either by the player (more likely) or the coach (possible, but less likely).

CDu
02-03-2016, 08:58 AM
As for Thornton, I also agree that we are better with him on the floor. He is showing great strides in his confidence and decision making. Add that to the elite quickness and ball-handling that is already present, and we have a game-changing point guard leading the way. We become a different animal with a true point guard on the floor that can break down the defense. Keep up the good work Thornton.

I'll be honest: I haven't seen much "true PG" from Thornton. And I don't think decisionmaking has been a strength for him yet. He's shown tremendous quickness and flashes of ability to get to the hoop, but hasn't really yet shown traits of a true PG. That's not to say that he hasn't played well or that he didn't played well last night. I just think that, right now, he's just another shooting/scoring guard out there.

NashvilleDevil
02-03-2016, 09:00 AM
Yeah, I definitely don't mean to bash Thornton. He's a freshman who missed all of summer work and was not known as a true PG (more of a lead guard) anyway. He should get better with time. Just that this was a mistake, either by the player (more likely) or the coach (possible, but less likely).

I know you weren't bashing him. I hope he takes this game and builds on it because he looked really good for stretches last night. If Duke can ever get Ingram, DT, Luke, and Grayson going at the same time it will be a beautiful thing.

slower
02-03-2016, 09:11 AM
As for Grayson - BEAST! I understand his explosive exchange with DT because that dude is LOCKED IN and intense as heck and seems like the guy who best understands that the team, as currently constructed, relies on him more than anyone else to win. In that way, I think he best exemplifies the fire of his coach who seems to have (for at least last night) burned himself out trying to study every angle that could help his team get the next W. I think he stokes himself into a frenzy for these games and it's got to be tough to turn that off...kind of like how we expect NFL players to be gentlemen the minute the whistle blows a play dead. Really? They are trained to basically kill each other and that emotion is supposed to just dissipate on command? Keep the fires burning, Grayson, we need every last JOULE, every SCOVILLE, every last BTU!!!!!!!!

Perhaps Thornton had good intentions, but I hope he wasn't trying to give Grayson any advice or coaching. There's nothing - not one single thing - that Thornton can teach Grayson about the game of basketball. Grayson is the direct heir to the Laettner/Hurley/JWill/JJ/Singler/Winslow talent+badass throne. Best to just get out of his way, because he really doesn't seem to have time for a lot of nonsense. My only regret is that Grayson's not 7' tall and 270 lbs., so that he could demolish punks like Jacobs, Devin Thomas or Brice Johnson. I would love nothing more than to have Grayson stick around for 4 years, so that he could thrill all us with his brilliance and cement his place on the Mt. Rushmore of hated Duke players.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 09:18 AM
Really liked how Capel owned the game and made the team his.
The decision on man to man, and the play of Jeter and Vrankovic may give K some food for thought.

WRT man2man, knowing Coach K, we were almost certainly going back to it as the main defense at some point this season anyway. We made a nice run in the Miami game using m2m, and this game further encourages it. WRT Vrank, I think you guys are making too big a deal of his appearance. He basically got the token minute of playing time that Sean had been receiving recently.



Everybody is pretty hard on Thornton.
Most of the time we appear to be a better team with him on the floor.
I still marvel a bit at how quick he is, with his play against Cat Barber in the State game.


Unfortunately, this flat out hasn't been the case. In minutes-adjusted plus-minus (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36813-2015-16-Season-Plus-Minus&p=853669#post853669), Derryck has only been +8 per game this season while the rest of the regulars been between +13 and +16 per game, with Grayson being +16.

But I do agree that I love his talent and think he'll make a great scoring PG one day.



It's a shame DT's time comes at Kennard's expense.

Everyone is always so hard on Matt. Trust me, there's a reason why Coach K will start Matt every single game this season, if health allows. The guy does all the little things that can't be appreciated on first viewing. DVR the games and re-watch while focusing on Matt. Then you'll know.

slower
02-03-2016, 09:31 AM
Everyone is always so hard on Matt. Trust me, there's a reason why Coach K will start Matt every single game this season, if health allows. The guy does all the little things that can't be appreciated on first viewing. DVR the games and re-watch while focusing on Matt. Then you'll know.

Matt certainly deserves the start, although he doesn't bring as much offensively as some would have hoped and he definitely slows the game down when he's the primary ball-handler. As Thornton and Kennard (hopefully) improve, the advantage to playing Matt over either of them will shrink considerably.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 09:33 AM
Unfortunately, this flat out hasn't been the case. In minutes-adjusted plus-minus (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36813-2015-16-Season-Plus-Minus&p=853669#post853669), Derryck has only been +8 per game this season while the rest of the regulars have been between +13 and +16 per game, with Grayson being +16.


Eh, might as well list them all out.

Grayson +16
Luke +15
Matt +15
Brandon +14
Marshall +13
Derryck +8

That's the minutes-adjusted plus-minus for our 6 regulars through the Miami game.

All that said, it would make sense that Derryck, who missed the summer and is a freshman, could have a late burst of improvement in February and March. I'm rooting hard for him to become a good point guard. Coach Capel said that he played well in the 2nd-half of the Miami, so they took a chance on him. And he obviously played well overall last night. Hopefully this continues.

sagegrouse
02-03-2016, 09:36 AM
I watched the game last night after I got home (Mt. time). I have read the posts and have a few comments.

I thought Derryck Thornton carried the team during our surge. His basket at 12:34 led to a GT timeout. He scored seven more points en route to a 72-55 lead. From 52-50 to 72-55, Thornton had nine points of our 20. I thought he was carving up the Tech defense with his drives. He had some bonehead plays -- freshman! Live with it!

Ingram grabbed ten rebounds against a much more bulky GT team. Sterling effort.

Grayson -- I can't add to the comments above. It was a showcase game by Allen, when we really needed it.

I wasn't too worried at half with a four-point deficit. It seems like when the other team is shooting "lights out," but we are hanging in there, we end up winning easily. Although I will say that Tech's second-half collapse was unexpected. Where was Georges-Hunt? I suppose Matt Jones had something to say about it. And why was Charles Mitchell sitting on the bench? Gee, six rebounds in 11 minutes scales pretty well if he plays 30 minutes.

Heck, where was Brian Gregory? Seemed like he was as stunned by the second half as his team.

dukelifer
02-03-2016, 09:38 AM
WRT man2man, knowing Coach K, we were almost certainly going back to it as the main defense at some point this season anyway. We made a nice run in the Miami game using m2m, and this game further encourages it. WRT Vrank, I think you guys are making too big a deal of his appearance. He basically got the token minute of playing time that Sean had been receiving recently.



Unfortunately, this flat out hasn't been the case. In minutes-adjusted plus-minus (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36813-2015-16-Season-Plus-Minus&p=853669#post853669), Derryck has only been +8 per game this season while the rest of the regulars been between +13 and +16 per game, with Grayson being +16.

But I do agree that I love his talent and think he'll make a great scoring PG one day.



Everyone is always so hard on Matt. Trust me, there's a reason why Coach K will start Matt every single game this season, if health allows. The guy does all the little things that can't be appreciated on first viewing. DVR the games and re-watch while focusing on Matt. Then you'll know.
I did not get to watch in realtime but caught part of the second half on replay. I was impressed with DT who looked much more aggressive. I am hoping something clicked with him. Maybe he just got mad. That could explain some of the end of the game emotion with Grayson. Duke had a long time to work on things as a team with the layoff. That may have led to some improvement in the Defense in the second half - but we will need much more evidence to know for sure. I am seeing improvement in their team play (passing, switching, communication etc) and the hope is that this leads to wins. When all the freshman put it together- it will be a very good team. We have seen flashes of greatness from the big 3 Frosh. But they are inconsistent - as is the team. Baby steps.

tux
02-03-2016, 09:39 AM
WRT man2man, knowing Coach K, we were almost certainly going back to it as the main defense at some point this season anyway. We made a nice run in the Miami game using m2m, and this game further encourages it. WRT Vrank, I think you guys are making too big a deal of his appearance. He basically got the token minute of playing time that Sean had been receiving recently.



Unfortunately, this flat out hasn't been the case. In minutes-adjusted plus-minus (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36813-2015-16-Season-Plus-Minus&p=853669#post853669), Derryck has only been +8 per game this season while the rest of the regulars been between +13 and +16 per game, with Grayson being +16.

But I do agree that I love his talent and think he'll make a great scoring PG one day.



Everyone is always so hard on Matt. Trust me, there's a reason why Coach K will start Matt every single game this season, if health allows. The guy does all the little things that can't be appreciated on first viewing. DVR the games and re-watch while focusing on Matt. Then you'll know.


I agree. It's obvious that Capel is a great coach and is more than comfortable making adjustments. My guess is that K gave Capel more or less full reign last night. But, to say that Capel's switch to man-to-man is somehow NOT what K would have done as well is crazy. Tech was ready for Duke's zone and shot almost 60% in the first half. Plus, the reason for zone IMO hasn't been because the team is incapable of getting stops in man, but that with only 6 rotation players, we run the risk of foul trouble. Once we hit halftime with almost no foul issues, switching to man-to-man was almost a no-brainer. Duke's zone right now is just not very effective. Marshall IMO really struggles trying to hold down the back line --- he tends to over-help and move to much up the lane leaving all sorts of opportunities on the back line. In addition, he's not super quick off the floor to challenge shots when he does manage to recover. Maybe part of that is trying *not* to foul. Anyway, at least last night, the zone kept us in the game and then we made it tougher for them in the 2nd half. Of course, we shouldn't extrapolate too much as Tech is not an elite team and they missed a bunch of shots, which always helps the cause.

Beyond that, I thought Ingram played a monster game. He's a very tough kid despite his thin frame. His shot wasn't falling and he took a couple bad shots, but I think he knows that he (and Grayson) has to be aggressive for Duke to be successful. We have to accept an occasional bad shooting night, b/c we absolutely need him and Grayson attacking. Luke didn't play as much as he usually does but I think part of that was the team making a run at the beginning of the 2nd half and needing guys who could guard the perimeter. Luke is better defensively than I thought he'd be, but he's not as quick as DT.

DT's biggest flaw seems to be that he's not Tyus Jones. I thought he played great minus those few shaky moments.

I also wouldn't read too much into Vrank getting two minutes. It's not uncommon for Duke and K to have slightly different looks after a long break. Maybe Vrank had better practices this last week and K decided to bring him in ahead of Obi... who knows, but I doubt that was Capel going rogue or something.

freshmanjs
02-03-2016, 09:41 AM
I did not get to watch in realtime but caught part of the second half on replay. I was impressed with DT who looked much more aggressive. I am hoping something clicked with him. Maybe he just got mad. That could explain some of the end of the game emotion with Grayson. Duke had a long time to work on things as a team with the layoff. That may have led to some improvement in the Defense in the second half - but we will need much more evidence to know for sure. I am seeing improvement in their team play (passing, switching, communication etc) and the hope is that this leads to wins. When all the freshman put it together- it will be a very good team. We have seen flashes of greatness from the big 3 Frosh. But they are inconsistent - as is the team. Baby steps.

Agree, but they don't have time for baby steps. 9 games left and 5 of them are against highly ranked teams. After NCSU, it's 4 top 9 Kenpom teams in a row. Time for a grown up step!

rsvman
02-03-2016, 09:44 AM
A lot of talk about how going to man-to-man saved the game, etc. Maybe, but in the scheme of things, it isn't just about getting one win, but about continuing to win. And if we had played man-to-man the entire game, I think that potentially could have jeopardized the latter goal.

Winning by a few points versus winning by 20+ is still just a win. And if guys get into foul trouble maybe you don't even get the win (exhibit A: the Clemson game). By playing zone for the first half, we managed to get into the locker room still in it, not in foul trouble, and with a lot less wear and tear on the players.

In short, I don't think that there was necessarily a "coaching decision" per se that occurred at halftime to save the victory. I think it's more likely that the plan was to go with zone for quite some time, provided we weren't getting blown out, and to keep the man-to-man in the hip pocket to use as needed. If that's the case, I think that's genius coaching. Because we are thin, guys have to play large minutes. We've got a tough stretch coming up. The more zone we can get away with, the better off we'll be in this next stretch of games, in my opinion.

I'd like to see more switching up of the defense, just to keep the opponent off guard.


Worst-case take-a-way from last night's game, IMO, is that M2M is the only way to go. I think, at least until Jefferson is back, that we can't expend that much energy and expect to continue to win during this tough stretch. I certainly hope they don't abandon the zone completely, because it can be useful against a team like UNC that doesn't really shoot all that well from long range.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 09:46 AM
Matt certainly deserves the start, although he doesn't bring as much offensively as some would have hoped and he definitely slows the game down when he's the primary ball-handler. As Thornton and Kennard (hopefully) improve, the advantage to playing Matt over either of them will shrink considerably.

Yeah, but even that is mostly people's minds playing tricks on them.

I'll give you two test cases.

(1) In Matt's last 13 three-point attempts, how many did he hit? I suspect most people would guess like 3 or 4 because everyone thinks Matt is in a shooting slump right now. In actuality, he hit 6-out-of-13 for 46%, and he's still Duke's leader in three-point makes this season and shooting 40.5% overall.

(2) In the last 4 games, what is Matt's assist to turnover ratio? I think most people would guess 1 or maybe less than 1, but in actuality, he's had 14 assists to 4 turnovers for a 3.5 ratio. In the Syracuse game, everyone only remembers his poor shooting, but he had an excellent 7 assists to 0 turnovers against Cuse's aggressive zone that generates plenty of turnovers. Matt was the only regular who had a good idea of how to attack the zone with variety, being able to utilize MP3 along the baseline, for example. MP3 had a huge game against Cuse, but it was aided by Matt's assisting.

Matt's clearly a role-player on offense, but he plays the role pretty darn well.

freshmanjs
02-03-2016, 09:46 AM
In short, I don't think that there was necessarily a "coaching decision" per se that occurred at halftime to save the victory. I think it's more likely that the plan was to go with zone for quite some time, provided we weren't getting blown out, and to keep the man-to-man in the hip pocket to use as needed. If that's the case, I think that's genius coaching. Because we are thin, guys have to play large minutes. We've got a tough stretch coming up. The more zone we can get away with, the better off we'll be in this next stretch of games, in my opinion.



Coach Capel explicitly said the opposite of that both in the interview Len Elmore did and in his press conference.

slower
02-03-2016, 09:57 AM
Yeah, but even that is mostly people's minds playing tricks on them.

I'll give you two test cases.

(1) In Matt's last 13 three-point attempts, how many did he hit? I suspect most people would guess like 3 or 4 because everyone thinks Matt is in a shooting slump right now. In actuality, he hit 6-out-of-13 for 46%, and he's still Duke's leader in three-point makes this season and shooting 40.5% overall.

(2) In the last 4 games, what is Matt's assist to turnover ratio? I think most people would guess 1 or maybe less than 1, but in actuality, he's had 14 assists to 4 turnovers for a 3.5 ratio. In the Syracuse game, everyone only remembers his poor shooting, but he had an excellent 7 assists to 0 turnovers against Cuse's aggressive zone that generates plenty of turnovers. Matt was the only regular who had a good idea of how to attack the zone with variety, being able to utilize MP3 along the baseline, for example. MP3 had a huge game against Cuse, but it was aided by Matt's assisting.

Matt's clearly a role-player on offense, but he plays the role pretty darn well.

Not trying to slam Matt, just speculating about opportunity cost. To your first point above, note that Matt's overall FG% is underwhelming. Just sayin' .

jcannon
02-03-2016, 09:57 AM
Also, we have to remember that DT got to the team late. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for him leaving HS early, coming to Duke, having to learn the system, having to make new friends, playing on a national stage every game, having to adjust to college and living on his own, etc... he really should still be in high school...

Give him some time and the team some time to bond, they will all be fine.


I have felt the same way about the possible lack of team chemistry with DT. What has stood out to me over the last few games was the number of times DT gets leveled by a screen. I was at the Clemson game, and he was leveled late in that game around half court, and was slow to get up. I thought it was just a one-off thing, as that happens quite often in the college game. He was leveled twice during the Notre Dame game, once against NC State, and then again last night. Each time, it seemed like the big, whose man was setting the screen, never let DT know the screen was coming. Last night it was Marshall, and the times prior it was Ingram that did not call the screen. I tried to justify it initially with "Amile is our best communicator, and he isn't on the court". However, after seeing it multiple times over the course of a few games, I am beginning to wonder if the team is sending a message to DT. I hope this is much ado about nothing from my standpoint, as we do not see how the team interacts during practice and off the court. Maybe DT's late arrival and lack of time to integrate himself to the team has something to do with it, or maybe the rough stretch of the season has put additional stress on a young team, and they are trying to find their way.

wavedukefan70s
02-03-2016, 10:02 AM
Then you have to ask yourself .would you really tell your strategies in a press conference. No way in hades i would.
I believe they discuss the obvious .but
Never tell the enemy your battle plan.
We played 35 minutes of very good ball.
I cant imagine 40 minutes of perfect ball.
We have the offensive ability to destroy a opponent. A little more D we will be very good.

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 10:03 AM
IMO, the substitution patterns and substantial halftime adjustment appeared to have Capel's signature. The in-game coaching impressed me. Things are going to get very interesting when it's time to name a successor.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 10:04 AM
Not trying to slam Matt, just speculating about opportunity cost. To your first point above, note that Matt's overall FG% is underwhelming. Just sayin' .

Oh, that 40.5% is on threes, which is great. He IS shooting 40.7% overall, though, and that's because he is a terrible finisher at the rim so his 2-pt pct doesn't raise his overall pct like it does with other guards.

As for opportunity cost, if Luke can begin to hit threes consistently, he probably becomes a better player than Matt. But, then you have to factor in leadership and other intangibles that we have little clue about. Still, Luke has to hit his shots first.

As for Derryck, if he can consistently finish (been a problem for him until recently) and shoot threes well, eliminate or decrease the amount of 2-pt jumpers he takes because his percentage there is very poor, and take care of the ball, then he probably becomes a better player than Matt. Intangibles caveat applies. And like Luke, Derryck has to do it first.

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 10:05 AM
Coach Capel explicitly said the opposite of that both in the interview Len Elmore did and in his press conference.

I did not see either. What did Capel say?

freshmanjs
02-03-2016, 10:06 AM
I did not see either. What did Capel say?

He said they prepared only zone for Tech. Did not walkthrough even one play of man in preparation. Was a real-time decision to switch to man during the game.

CDu
02-03-2016, 10:09 AM
He said they prepared only zone for Tech. Did not walkthrough even one play of man in preparation. Was a real-time decision to switch to man during the game.

That would make sense. Man didn't seem like a good idea coming in, given their strength inside and that they had just one shooter. But they picked the zone apart.

RepoMan
02-03-2016, 10:09 AM
I think this was a big win for a young team. Road win against a veteran squad. We needed some confidence. If Allen and Thornton exchanged words, not a big deal at all -- happens all the time when competing. It shows you care.

I guess it is obvious from the KenPom and other stats that I don't really understand, but this is a really gifted offensive team. Of our 6 guys (ha ha ha), 5 can shoot 3s, and 4 are really good drivers. It isn't like we haven't had gifted offensive teams before, but the depth of talent in these areas feels somewhat unique. Anyway, even if it isn't unique, this is a fun team to watch, and with more experience and the return of Jefferson, I still think we can make post-season noise, especially this year where there are no overwhelmingly great teams. Continuing to maintain confidence will be key -- as will the Plumlee/Jones leadership.

tbyers11
02-03-2016, 10:10 AM
I have felt the same way about the possible lack of team chemistry with DT. What has stood out to me over the last few games was the number of times DT gets leveled by a screen. I was at the Clemson game, and he was leveled late in that game around half court, and was slow to get up. I thought it was just a one-off thing, as that happens quite often in the college game. He was leveled twice during the Notre Dame game, once against NC State, and then again last night. Each time, it seemed like the big, whose man was setting the screen, never let DT know the screen was coming. Last night it was Marshall, and the times prior it was Ingram that did not call the screen. I tried to justify it initially with "Amile is our best communicator, and he isn't on the court". However, after seeing it multiple times over the course of a few games, I am beginning to wonder if the team is sending a message to DT. I hope this is much ado about nothing from my standpoint, as we do not see how the team interacts during practice and off the court. Maybe DT's late arrival and lack of time to integrate himself to the team has something to do with it, or maybe the rough stretch of the season has put additional stress on a young team, and they are trying to find their way.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but I strongly disagree with your assertions that the other players on the team wouldn't call out a screen to send Derryck a message.

When we are not in a full court press but Derryck picks up his man full court, the "big" is frequently running down the court to get back on D. That accounted for several of the screens that you mention. Brandon, in particular, needs to be better at communication on defense.

I think all of this DT doesn't fit in speculation is extremely overblown. Laettner probably reacted like Grayson did to Derryck 4 times a game. It happens in the heat of the game. I am less than concerned about it.

elvis14
02-03-2016, 10:10 AM
It's so much fun to read and post in a post-game thread after a win. Considering how things have been going this was a big game and a big win. We have a tough schedule ahead of us so we really needed to win this game. So, I'm really happy that we won!



I liked the strategy that Capel used - play the reserve bigs more often and for longer stretches. Get MP3 extra rest to allow him to stay aggressive on the boards and on defense. And it paid off - Jeter had his best game in a while, fouls notwithstanding. (Though his first two were questionable)

Allen was sensational, but could have had a bigger game. Too bad the freedom of movement rules were, yet again, ignored off the ball.

Thornton played his best game in a while, but he made another boneheaded decision to shoot a long 2 point shot at the end of a half in transition where Duke could have had the final possession. He's gotta knock that off. He also got absolutely leveled on an illegal screen, where Jacobs was moving all the way into the contact and then gave a little extra on the screen - then had the nerve to stare at DT like he was some tough guy.

Just glad they escaped with the win.

Lot's of good points JP (I trimmed your post some, hope you don't mind). A few followups. First, I totally agree with you and others about the way Grayson is being mugged, especially off the ball. I hope he continues to adjust and fight through. Obviously he was really good tonight. He scored 27 even though he missed a few layups he normally makes (and didn't get calls he normally gets).

You mentioned that it was 'strategy' to play Jeter more and give MP3 rest. I thought that once or twice MP3 was basically benched for playing terrible defense and that's why we saw more of Jeter and Vrank. I could be wrong but there was one instance in particular where I was sure of it. I don't mean to be negative on MP3. I love that guy! He did some really good work last night on the boards but there were times last night where I thought his defense was just bad.

I thought Thornton was fantastic. I know we didn't play the last 3 minutes very well but I don't feel like we "escaped with a win". I think we came out in the second half, took it to GT, kicked their butts in their building and walked out with a big win and with our heads held high!



The other really good thing was Chase getting real minutes and making small, but real contributions, and Vrank getting his first taste of ACC play. I am the resident "Terp'in Prime" so I have no trouble being irritated with how Chase and Vrank were reff'ed. I have been watching ACC hoops for 46 years and one constant remains. Freshman Bigs who are in development and non-stars (and sometimes potential stars, see: Shavlik Randolph) get reff'd so unfairly it's hard to watch. The first foul on Chase was on Grayson if there was a foul at all, the second and third foul calls on Chase were fouls that do not get called on say, a Hanswalk... and then the 3 second call on Vrank followed by the supposed "hold" were just laughable. The kid did not sniff the benefit of the doubt out there. Maybe, just maybe, he could have made a positive contribution if allowed to play by the same rules as the other bigs on the floor. Rant over.


Great points here Newton_14 (got to love a guy with "14" in his handle!). I've been thinking the same thing. I was talking to a friend just last week about Jeter getting Shavlik'd. I thought the calls on him last night were terrible and the calls on Vrankovic were laughable. Only I wasn't laughing because I really wanted to see what Vrank could do for us out there. I think Jeter getting called every time he breathes on a guy is one of the things that's been holding him back. He's a freshman big struggling to get comfortable playing at this level. He's going to pick up his share of legitimate fouls on his own, he doesn't need help from the refs! Note, I don't think every call against Jeter (or anyone else) is bogus. Jeter is committing plenty of fouls that should be called but getting called for more than his share isn't helping.


Can't say enough about how good the team looks when Thornton is on. His quickness & penetration open up things on offense, and his defensive activity (especially his hands) gives our defense more bite up top (at least when we're playing man). Yes, Derryck ended the first and second halves pretty badly (was ready to throw the remote at the wall with the total lack of clock awareness at the end of the first), but I thought he was huge in the early part of each half, especially the second.

I'm with KandG in regards to Thornton, I love his quickness on both ends of the floor. I thought Coach C did a good job of letting DT play through his mistakes last night. Yes, there were mistakes but I see so much potential in this kid and in our team when he's "on" that I'm willing to live with the mistakes if it helps him reach that potential. I think DT is by far our quickest player and he's going to be a PITA for other teams (and as a freshman PG, he's going to be a PITA for us sometimes too!).

It was good to get this win despite some things going wrong:
- Zone defense was not good at all
- Ingram had a bad shooting night (still had a double-double). He missed some shots he's usually going to make
- We finished both halves poorly
- GA was being mugged off the ball and missed some layups he normally makes (still put up 27)
- Interior defense wasn't good at times
- Coach K was in Durham

I'm not being negative, quite the opposite. I think it's great that we can show up, not play our best game and still win convincingly on the road against a team that matched up pretty well against us. Here's some things that went right:

- Grayson
- Thornton's play (even with his freshman mistakes)
- Jeter played useful minutes. Didn't look lost.
- Vrankovic played some minutes (have to start somewhere)
- Ingram's double double
- Effective man to man defense (I can't tell you how happy this made me)

I can't wait to watch this game again today!

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 10:10 AM
He said they prepared only zone for Tech. Did not walkthrough even one play of man in preparation. Was a real-time decision to switch to man during the game.

Thanks, that was the way it appeared to me, but it's great to know for sure.

The feel of the game was very much Capel. Those were not K substitution patterns or half-time adjustments. IMO, we have had a number of assistants who are better with X's & O's, such as Capel. OTOH, I think you would have to go back to the 60's to find someone who might have been equal to K in leadership skills.

JasonEvans
02-03-2016, 10:17 AM
Vrankovic didn't look lost or even a liability for that matter.

Look, I would like to see Vrank get doses of minutes to see if he can develop. Like Jeter, I think there can be a meaningful future for him at Duke down the road...

But your characterization of his 1 minute last night is... well... generous. He came in the game and promptly got called for 3 seconds on the offensive end. Tech got the ball and hit a three and then Brandon hit a layup for Duke. Then, on the next possession, Tech fed it into the post where Vrank got called for a pretty clear hack. Then he came out. So, he turned it over on half his offensive possessions and he committed a foul on half his defensive possessions. To say he didn't look like a liability doesn't really fit with what I saw.

--Jason "again, I hope and think he will get there, but he wasn't noticeably better than the somewhat disastrous results we have seen from Jeter and Obi thus far" Evans

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 10:23 AM
.....with more experience and the return of Jefferson, I still think we can make post-season noise, especially this year where there are no overwhelmingly great teams.

Strongly agree. I suspect we will end up being the most feared team at our seeding level.

elvis14
02-03-2016, 10:31 AM
Strongly agree. I suspect we will end up being the most feared team at our seeding level.

If we get Amile back and start playing closer to our potential, nobody's going to want to play us and there will be lots of pissing and moaning about having to play a Duke team that's under seeded. Of course that'll be different than all the complaining that we hear when we are 1 or 2 seed (where people like to claim we are seeded too high then they claim the NCAA is paving our way...idiots).

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 10:33 AM
Thanks, that was the way it appeared to me, but it's great to know for sure.

The feel of the game was very much Capel. Those were not K substitution patterns or half-time adjustments. IMO, we have had a number of assistants who are better with X's & O's, such as Capel. OTOH, I think you would have to go back to the 60's to find someone who might have been equal to K in leadership skills.

LOL - based on what?

Do you know how many dozens of games long-time Duke fans can cite in which Coach K makes a great in-game adjustment?

Just this season, we had a lot of trouble stopping Yale in m2m, and then Coach K unveiled a 1-3-1 that completely befuddled them and led to a blowout win. We did something similar against Georgetown.

The posters on this forum are waaaay too over-reactive to small samples, and that's why EKB is no longer the premier Duke forum for basketball analysis. To be fair, we are still #2 in basketball analysis and #1 overall when you take into account the great company here which I always enjoy, unless you think a bunch of snarky, data-minded millenials is great company. (Out of respect for DBR, its owners, and mods, I will obviously not name the other forum).

We really need to shape up. I would like to see us return to being #1 across the board.

dukelifer
02-03-2016, 10:38 AM
Agree, but they don't have time for baby steps. 9 games left and 5 of them are against highly ranked teams. After NCSU, it's 4 top 9 Kenpom teams in a row. Time for a grown up step!

Teams grow up on their own time scale. If this one grows up fast- that would be great. We shall see.

oldnavy
02-03-2016, 10:50 AM
I think this was a big win for a young team. Road win against a veteran squad. We needed some confidence. If Allen and Thornton exchanged words, not a big deal at all -- happens all the time when competing. It shows you care.

I guess it is obvious from the KenPom and other stats that I don't really understand, but this is a really gifted offensive team. Of our 6 guys (ha ha ha), 5 can shoot 3s, and 4 are really good drivers. It isn't like we haven't had gifted offensive teams before, but the depth of talent in these areas feels somewhat unique. Anyway, even if it isn't unique, this is a fun team to watch, and with more experience and the return of Jefferson, I still think we can make post-season noise, especially this year where there are no overwhelmingly great teams. Continuing to maintain confidence will be key -- as will the Plumlee/Jones leadership.

Hey, don't sell MP3 short, he is hitting a cool 100% of his 3pt attempts if memory serves.

budwom
02-03-2016, 10:57 AM
I thought the first half zone ended up bearing some fruit (despite its general ineffectiveness) in that we didn't
get in any foul trouble that I can think of (I watch with the sound off to avoid listening to Seabiscuit), so in the
second half we got to play man to man without too much fear of fouling (despite some of Grayson's late, somewhat strange fouls).

Had we man to man from the start, we might've run into serious foul trouble (given our severe lack of depth).

kAzE
02-03-2016, 11:07 AM
I thought we played solid for the first 36 minutes. Yes, they shot 58 percent against our zone, but to be honest, a lot of those shots were pretty fluky low percentage type shots. We absolutely more effective playing man, but as many have pointed out, the zone will be needed to keep legs fresh and manage the foul situation. We were able to play good man to man coming off an 8 day reprieve, and we should be fresh for Saturday, but with a short rest, I would hope to still see a bit more improvement to our zone going forward. I think getting Amile back would really increase the effectiveness of the zone. He's the 2nd longest athlete on the team, and the space he can cover on defense with his arms alone makes him an integral part of the zone.

My thoughts on each player's performance in this game:

Grayson: Still the best player on the team. Not sure how many losses we would have at this point if we didn't have him, but it would be way more than 6. His passion for the game elevates the team.

Matt: A very typical Matt Jones performance. Shut down the other team's best offensive threat on the perimeter and hit a few 3s. Still can't finish at the rim to save his life.

Marshall: Did I not say this guy was going to be an above average center in the ACC? He's been killing it in league play. I still think he'll be on a NBA roster next year because of his size, mobility, and leaping ability. T-Rex arms aside, you just can't teach that size.

Brandon: Awesome game from the freshman. He stayed aggressive even though his shot wasn't falling. Made smart plays and good reads all game, got to the foul line at will, and was an absolute beast protecting the rim with 4 blocks. Another example of how many ways he contributes to this team's success even without having a good shooting night. Just a very smart player, and understands match ups not only for himself, but his teammates very well.

Derryck: I agree it was his best game thus far, but the boneheaded mistakes have got to stop. I loved his drive early in the game with the shot clock winding down, it was a beautiful move to get in the paint and great finish. The splitting of the double team to make the up and under reverse was probably the prettiest play of the game. (or perhaps tied with Marshall's Kevin McHale impersonation) We need to see that more. When he's playing confidently on offense, Derryck is a serious scoring threat. Now the bad: We've already discussed his horrible clock management skills ad nauseam, so I'll save some time and just say it was bad again. His cross-court pass to a wide open Grayson for 3 was nice (because Grayson was on fire), but Derryck was actually wide open for a left handed lay in. He wasn't even looking at the rim. This leads me to believe that he decides prior to the his drives what he's going to do with it, instead of reading the defense and making the best play based on the situation. I think I'd still rather him take that easy 2 points than risk a missed 3 and transition opportunity for the other team. Another play I remember distinctly was his drop off to Matt Jones in transition. He telegraphed that pass the whole way. A true point guard with good fundamentals would be staring at the rim to force the defender into committing before dropping it off. Matt, of course, got stuffed super hard, because the defender knew he was getting the ball. Derryck is the quickest guy on the team and easily has the tightest handles, but his point guard fundamentals need a ton of work.

Luke: Didn't hit his 2 jumpers to start the game, but I thought he played well. I don't understand why he only got 15 minutes. He played great defense in the first half. He had 2 close outs on 3 point attempts that were Winslow-esque. It seems that the rotation is now such that Luke will get more minutes if he's hot, but those minutes will come at the expense of Derryck, and vice versa. I'm not sure why Matt needs to play 39 minutes. Luke really couldn't spell Matt for 3 more minutes? He just needs to keep playing and those shots are going to start falling. I hope he starts rolling when these tougher games start coming up. We need his offense badly.

Chase: I'm starting to agree that some of these calls on him are just BS. His frustration is both visible and understandable. He did have some good moments in this game though. I thought he did a good job of playing big on defense. He does have some very long arms. The talent is clearly there, and I'm glad Coach Capel gave him some extra chances to prove himself.

Vrank: I got really excited, then I facepalmed. I rarely complain about officiating, but those refs last night . . .

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 11:11 AM
LOL - based on what?

Do you know how many dozens of games long-time Duke fans can cite in which Coach K makes a great in-game adjustment?

Just this season, we had a lot of trouble stopping Yale in m2m, and then Coach K unveiled a 1-3-1 that completely befuddled them and led to a blowout win. We did something similar against Georgetown.

The posters on this forum are waaaay too over-reactive to small samples, and that's why EKB is no longer the premier Duke forum for basketball analysis. To be fair, we are still #2 in basketball analysis and #1 overall when you take into account the great company here which I always enjoy, unless you think a bunch of snarky, data-minded millenials is great company. (Out of respect for DBR, its owners, and mods, I will obviously not name the other forum).

We really need to shape up. I would like to see us return to being #1 across the board.

I stated it as my opinion. I will not knowingly publicly state any information shared in confidence. However, I also recall knowledgeable people having stated their similar opinion publicly before. Have you truly never heard any of those statements?

azzefkram
02-03-2016, 11:23 AM
Oh, that 40.5% is on threes, which is great. He IS shooting 40.7% overall, though, and that's because he is a terrible finisher at the rim so his 2-pt pct doesn't raise his overall pct like it does with other guards.

As for opportunity cost, if Luke can begin to hit threes consistently, he probably becomes a better player than Matt. But, then you have to factor in leadership and other intangibles that we have little clue about. Still, Luke has to hit his shots first.

As for Derryck, if he can consistently finish (been a problem for him until recently) and shoot threes well, eliminate or decrease the amount of 2-pt jumpers he takes because his percentage there is very poor, and take care of the ball, then he probably becomes a better player than Matt. Intangibles caveat applies. And like Luke, Derryck has to do it first.

In league play Matt has been the worst shooter on the team. He's shooting 50% at the rim, 20% from 2, 33% from 3 and 34% overall. While his finishing at the rim is nothing to write home about, I do think it looks worse since he seems to get stuffed as opposed to missing the shot. Both Derryck (46%, 43%, 35%, 40%) and Luke (54%, 62%, 29%, 46%) are better overall shooters. Matt does seem to bring a fair amount of intangibles to the equation but so does Luke (Derryck's improving but is still a freshman PG not named Tyus). I have been somewhat underwhelmed with Matt's D this year. I am not sure if it's the new FoM rules, or nagging injury (ankle/groin), or miscast role (Matt doesn't have the foot speed to stay in front of most 1 and 2). Matt is a very important member of this team but I think you overrate the intangibles a bit.

Duke76
02-03-2016, 11:38 AM
Great win. Every win is so huge right now.

In terms of DT and the end of the first half, I believe he streaked past Capel, right past the bench, and Capel yelled something right in his ear. Are we sure Capel knew the exact time and didn't yell "2 for 1"? I ask because DT went down and took a very quick, 2 for 1 type shot. I know I was thinking 2 for 1 as he was crossing half court and then I saw the clock. Had there been another 8 seconds on the clock, 2 for 1 was the call. As such, I didn't think it was as boneheaded, it was close to a 2 for 1 situation from a clock perspective. DT getting his PG reps this year is big, he's gonna be ready to rock from the jump next year.

I thought Ingram actually played really well on offense, he just didn't finish a lot of plays. We have to remember that Brandon's threat on offense allows everything else to happen. Despite his missing a bunch of close shots, he didn't lose his edge and he kept attacking and shooting helping us maintain our floor balance and keeping the defense honest. I love how, overall, we went at Lammers no matter who he was guarding, even when it was MP3 in the post (who abused him on a McHale-esque pivot/up fake sequence). That's the sign of a smart offensive squad.

As for Kennard, I think our need to get size on the floor with Jeter/Vrank and Thornton's play ate into his minutes.

Matt Jones, the dude is like wallpaper in the best sense of the word, you sometimes don't even notice that he's out there yet his presence has an immensely important impact on the entire environment. Hmm, why do I feel so happy in this room? Ah, it's the wallpaper.

As for Grayson - BEAST! I understand his explosive exchange with DT because that dude is LOCKED IN and intense as heck and seems like the guy who best understands that the team, as currently constructed, relies on him more than anyone else to win. In that way, I think he best exemplifies the fire of his coach who seems to have (for at least last night) burned himself out trying to study every angle that could help his team get the next W. I think he stokes himself into a frenzy for these games and it's got to be tough to turn that off...kind of like how we expect NFL players to be gentlemen the minute the whistle blows a play dead. Really? They are trained to basically kill each other and that emotion is supposed to just dissipate on command? Keep the fires burning, Grayson, we need every last JOULE, every SCOVILLE, every last BTU!!!!!!!!


think this is a good summarization of the game as well....as I was there and they just looked very efficient with their set plays for Grayson and even Brandon, his shots were just not going down....the play last night really gives me hope that the team now knows what it wants to do and doesn't look lost...the game is slowing down for DT and I just think that end of the 1st half and the turnovers at the 5to 3 minute mark in the second were times when it was still fast for him....but he had some great dribble drive moves and good court awareness for most of the game

Duke76
02-03-2016, 11:40 AM
We got the ball with 36 seconds left. There was no chance at a 2-for-1. My guess is he yelled "1 shot". If Capel did say 2-for-1, that was a mistake. Would have needed at least 10 more seconds for that. At least.

really what he was mad at imo, was that Grayson was just too the left of him wide open for the perfect shot and DT rushed his....he should have seen Grayson and made that extra pass

CDu
02-03-2016, 11:56 AM
I thought we played solid for the first 36 minutes. Yes, they shot 58 percent against our zone, but to be honest, a lot of those shots were pretty fluky low percentage type shots.

That's not really accurate. Very few (if any that I can recall) of Tech's shots in the first half were fluky shots. They were getting layups and dunks. There was maybe one borderline fluky shot: an 8-foot turnaround by one of their best post scorers. That was it. The rest was a clinic in beating the zone for layups. The defense in the first half was atrocious. The defense in the second half was very solid.

kAzE
02-03-2016, 11:59 AM
That's not really accurate. Very few (if any that I can recall) of Tech's shots in the first half were fluky shots. They were getting layups and dunks. There was maybe one borderline fluky shot: an 8-foot turnaround by one of their best post scorers. That was it. The rest was a clinic in beating the zone for layups. The defense in the first half was atrocious. The defense in the second half was very solid.

I thought some of those Adam Smith shots were pretty fluky. He had a couple of high arcing bank shots and pull ups go in that were pretty bad shots. But you're right, they did get several easy scores as well. I did say that our zone needs improvement.



Wrinkles, small wrinkles, NOT new defensive scheme.

We did not implement a "new offensive scheme" by positioning Marshall behind the basket more often, for example.

Similarly, we had played 2-3 zone before -- very poorly -- but by putting some players in different places and devoting some practice time to it, we played some decent zone the past couple of games.

Why do I think another wrinkle could be a "net positive"? Because, while those two previous minor changes weren't perfect, most Duke fans would agree that they were positive changes. So I would expect additional changes to be positive as well. Plus, in general, I have respect for whatever our staff implements (or doesn't implement).

I don't know why you're resisting me so hard on this.

Are you just not confident for tonight and want to argue with someone who IS confident? Well, there's another way.

My boss, Jason Evans, has a little sportsbook going on right now, and he's always looking for new customers. You see the thread floating around. Just enter the thread and place a bet on GaTech getting 4 points tonight. How in the world is little ol' Duke going to beat the big, bad Yellow Jackets and cover 4 points? Craaazy. We'll spot you the first $5000 free. Come join us, kaze.

Grabbed this from the pre-game and in game thread. I wasn't "resisting" you, and I definitely did not think we were going to lose this game . . . I just didn't think we needed "new wrinkles," to win, and was just explaining my position. That's what you do on a message board. Calm down. And hey, guess what? We didn't really try anything new and fancy, and we won. How about that? It was a well-coached game by Coach Capel. He made the adjustment to switch to man after the half, and we played great defense.

We clearly had a misunderstanding on the scope of your "new wrinkles," but I don't even really agree that Marshall being positioned down low can be considered "a new wrinkle." Where else is he supposed to be on offense? Out at the 3 point line? Grayson has just been doing a great job finding him for easy finishes, and unlike previous iterations of MP3, he has the hands to catch the ball cleanly now. Drawing the defense on a drive and giving an open big man the ball down low is not a difficult concept. That's basketball 101. We've been doing this for a long time. It was just Amile more often early in the year.

I'm avoiding the betting thread. I have no interest in sports betting, especially when it comes to my own team.

wsb3
02-03-2016, 12:35 PM
IMO, the substitution patterns and substantial halftime adjustment appeared to have Capel's signature. The in-game coaching impressed me. Things are going to get very interesting when it's time to name a successor.

My bet is that while there was a game plan that Coach K told Capel to coach the game by his feel.

Yes things will get interesting but I don't want to think about that right now. One thing that has really worked in Coach K's favor at this point in his career & with kids thinking they are OAD there is no need to assure the top flight players that he will be there all four years.

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 12:55 PM
One thing that has really worked in Coach K's favor at this point in his career & with kids thinking they are OAD there is no need to assure the top flight players that he will be there all four years.

I fully agree and suspect those recruits are getting K's tenure commitment (at least, for OADs).

Jeffrey
02-03-2016, 01:26 PM
IMO, we have had a number of assistants who are better with X's & O's, such as Capel. OTOH, I think you would have to go back to the 60's to find someone who might have been equal to K in leadership skills.



LOL - based on what?

Do you know how many dozens of games long-time Duke fans can cite in which Coach K makes a great in-game adjustment?

Just this season, we had a lot of trouble stopping Yale in m2m, and then Coach K unveiled a 1-3-1 that completely befuddled them and led to a blowout win. We did something similar against Georgetown.

The posters on this forum are waaaay too over-reactive to small samples, and that's why EKB is no longer the premier Duke forum for basketball analysis. To be fair, we are still #2 in basketball analysis and #1 overall when you take into account the great company here which I always enjoy, unless you think a bunch of snarky, data-minded millenials is great company. (Out of respect for DBR, its owners, and mods, I will obviously not name the other forum).

We really need to shape up. I would like to see us return to being #1 across the board.

IMO, starting a post with "LOL" is snarky. I know you're not alone and realize another frequent poster does the same.

As I stated, I will not tell you what my opinions are based upon, since that information was shared in confidence. However, you should pay more attention, since the same opinion has been stated publicly multiple times. Here's one, stated by a person I do not know:

"In terms of coaching, Coach K (Mike Krzyzewski) did the majority, but (Collins) was very good at X's and O's. There were times during timeouts where he would draw up plays."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-04-02/sports/ct-spt-0403-bits-bulls-wizards-chicago-20130403_1_doug-collins-coach-k-coach-tom-thibodeau

CDu
02-03-2016, 02:30 PM
I thought some of those Adam Smith shots were pretty fluky. He had a couple of high arcing bank shots and pull ups go in that were pretty bad shots. But you're right, they did get several easy scores as well. I did say that our zone needs improvement.

I think you are mixing up the time frames. The Adam Smith fluky shots (only one or two of those were fluky) all came in the second half during the Adam Smith vs. Grayson Allen show. Smith had just two baskets in the first half: an open 3pt shot and another open jumper. He had a stretch in which he made 3 straight contested jumpers early in the second half against our man-to-man (specifically against Grayson Allen).

FerryFor50
02-03-2016, 02:40 PM
I think you are mixing up the time frames. The Adam Smith fluky shots (only one or two of those were fluky) all came in the second half during the Adam Smith vs. Grayson Allen show. Smith had just two baskets in the first half: an open 3pt shot and another open jumper. He had a stretch in which he made 3 straight contested jumpers early in the second half against our man-to-man (specifically against Grayson Allen).

Yea, to have fluky shots, you have to actually be guarded, which Duke was not doing much of in the 1st half.

I was amazed that GT shot around 60% in the first half and only led by 4. That's why i wasn't too worried about things.

Devilwin
02-03-2016, 02:54 PM
Just watched the game again. We missed way, way too many shots at the rim. Allen missed five, Ingram five, and there were three players with three. Allen's especially were bad, but he offset this with a fine three point shot night.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2016, 03:09 PM
I have felt the same way about the possible lack of team chemistry with DT. What has stood out to me over the last few games was the number of times DT gets leveled by a screen. I was at the Clemson game, and he was leveled late in that game around half court, and was slow to get up. I thought it was just a one-off thing, as that happens quite often in the college game. He was leveled twice during the Notre Dame game, once against NC State, and then again last night. Each time, it seemed like the big, whose man was setting the screen, never let DT know the screen was coming. Last night it was Marshall, and the times prior it was Ingram that did not call the screen. I tried to justify it initially with "Amile is our best communicator, and he isn't on the court". However, after seeing it multiple times over the course of a few games, I am beginning to wonder if the team is sending a message to DT. I hope this is much ado about nothing from my standpoint, as we do not see how the team interacts during practice and off the court. Maybe DT's late arrival and lack of time to integrate himself to the team has something to do with it, or maybe the rough stretch of the season has put additional stress on a young team, and they are trying to find their way.

I disagree - if team chemistry with DT was so bad that players were intentionally leaving him on an island for screens that leave you crumbled, it would manifest in many other places. I have played a lot of ball in my day, sometimes with dudes I didn't like. I would NEVER have let anyone on my team run full speed into a screen intentionally, choosing to keep my mouth shut.

If DT had garnered that much ill-will, we would see it. Also, I cannot imagine thay Coach K - sick or well - would ever stand for that.

It is a breakdown of communication. If there is any malice behind it, I am surprised and the team is doomed.

AnotherNYCDukeFan
02-03-2016, 03:23 PM
I have felt the same way about the possible lack of team chemistry with DT. What has stood out to me over the last few games was the number of times DT gets leveled by a screen. I was at the Clemson game, and he was leveled late in that game around half court, and was slow to get up. I thought it was just a one-off thing, as that happens quite often in the college game. He was leveled twice during the Notre Dame game, once against NC State, and then again last night. Each time, it seemed like the big, whose man was setting the screen, never let DT know the screen was coming. Last night it was Marshall, and the times prior it was Ingram that did not call the screen. I tried to justify it initially with "Amile is our best communicator, and he isn't on the court". However, after seeing it multiple times over the course of a few games, I am beginning to wonder if the team is sending a message to DT. I hope this is much ado about nothing from my standpoint, as we do not see how the team interacts during practice and off the court. Maybe DT's late arrival and lack of time to integrate himself to the team has something to do with it, or maybe the rough stretch of the season has put additional stress on a young team, and they are trying to find their way.

I was pondering why DT seems to get hit with so many screens last night after the hard screen. Studies have shown that one's vision decreases by up to 50% in stressful situations. I wonder if DT, as he gets acclimated to the speed of the college game, has reduced hearing in those fast moving, full-court press situations and is just missing the call of the screen. It was easy to assume that Ingram was not calling the screens loudly, but I find it harder to believe that Marshall was not calling it loudly. Just seems weird that it keeps happening.

kAzE
02-03-2016, 03:25 PM
That would be way out of character for anyone on the team, especially Marshall. There's no way guys are letting Derryck get smacked like that intentionally, even if he's not popular in the locker room.

Atlanta Duke
02-03-2016, 03:32 PM
The posters on this forum are waaaay too over-reactive to small samples, and that's why EKB is no longer the premier Duke forum for basketball analysis. To be fair, we are still #2 in basketball analysis and #1 overall when you take into account the great company here which I always enjoy, unless you think a bunch of snarky, data-minded millenials is great company. (Out of respect for DBR, its owners, and mods, I will obviously not name the other forum).

We really need to shape up. I would like to see us return to being #1 across the board.

Is that based on the coaches' poll or the sportswriters' poll?

Kedsy
02-03-2016, 03:50 PM
Just watched the game again. We missed way, way too many shots at the rim. Allen missed five, Ingram five, and there were three players with three. Allen's especially were bad, but he offset this with a fine three point shot night.

According to the official box score, Grayson missed four layups, Brandon missed three, and the rest of the team in the aggregate missed one (Derryck). Maybe the play-by-play missed one or two, but even so it sounds like your count is quite high (19 vs. 8).

rsvman
02-03-2016, 03:55 PM
Coach Capel explicitly said the opposite of that both in the interview Len Elmore did and in his press conference.

OK, but it's not like nobody knew that we could go back to the M2M at any time.

I mean, if the game plan was zone all day, obviously you have to deviate from that if it fails. I guess my point is that a game plan that called for sticking with zone whenever possible makes good sense to me, and I hope that the win doesn't make the coaching staff decide that we need to play M2M all the time, because I really think we're going to need to use the zone at least off and on because of our thin bench, foul trouble, and fatigue.

At halftime in the in-game thread, I said I thought we were in pretty good shape, despite being down 4, because we had made it to halftime without any significant foul trouble, and with players that still had a lot left in the tank. I still believe that both in the short term and in the longer term, that we're going to have to be able to play both the zone and M2M if we want to be successful. They just have to be mixed properly and used at the right times. We need to keep players fresh, and we need to keep them out of foul trouble. And we need to continue to do that through this entire stretch.

When Jefferson comes back, we'll have a bit more leeway to spend more time in the M2M.

53n206
02-03-2016, 03:56 PM
Just watched the game again. We missed way, way too many shots at the rim. Allen missed five, Ingram five, and there were three players with three. Allen's especially were bad, but he offset this with a fine three point shot night.

We have been missing easy shots at the rim all season long. I don't know what the percentage should be on our team, nor do I know what the percent should be on the opposing teams, when we are descending.. However I don't think we're doing a good job at the rim in many games.

freshmanjs
02-03-2016, 03:57 PM
We have been missing easy shots at the rim all season long. I don't know what the percentage should be on our team, nor do I know what the percent should be on the opposing teams, when we are descending.. However I don't think we're doing a good job at the rim in many games.

and yet, we have the best adjusted offensive efficiency of any team.

53n206
02-03-2016, 03:59 PM
That would be way out of character for anyone on the team, especially Marshall. There's no way guys are letting Derryck get smacked like that intentionally, even if he's not popular in the locker room.

Do we know that DT is not popular in the locker room, or are we just assuming that?

kAzE
02-03-2016, 04:01 PM
Do we know that DT is not popular in the locker room, or are we just assuming that?

Not at all, that's just speculation. Not sure where it even started. I'm no insider, but even if that were the case, I'm sure the coaches/captains would put an end to that long before anything malicious would come of it.

Furniture
02-03-2016, 04:03 PM
Not at all, that's just speculation. Not sure where it even started. I'm no insider, but even if that were the case, I'm sure the coaches/captains would put an end to that long before anything malicious would come of it.

I think it's speculation that should stop right now!

azzefkram
02-03-2016, 04:22 PM
We have been missing easy shots at the rim all season long. I don't know what the percentage should be on our team, nor do I know what the percent should be on the opposing teams, when we are descending.. However I don't think we're doing a good job at the rim in many games.

We are a little better than average at the rim (60.3%, 149th). We have improved to 64% at the rim in league play (up to the Miami game). For a point of reference we were 68% at the rim for the season last year.

Kedsy
02-03-2016, 04:30 PM
We have been missing easy shots at the rim all season long. I don't know what the percentage should be on our team, nor do I know what the percent should be on the opposing teams, when we are descending.. However I don't think we're doing a good job at the rim in many games.


We are a little better than average at the rim (60.3%, 149th). We have improved to 64% at the rim in league play (up to the Miami game). For a point of reference we were 68% at the rim for the season last year.

And our opponents are shooting 57.7% at the rim against us, so at least we're doing better than they are.

kAzE
02-03-2016, 04:42 PM
And our opponents are shooting 57.7% at the rim against us, so at least we're doing better than they are.

I'd be surprised if this was the case in conference play. Sure, we can dominate Utah State and Buffalo inside, but without Amile, in the ACC? It sure doesn't seem like we've been doing better at the rim. Miami definitely killed us inside.

CDu
02-03-2016, 04:50 PM
I'd be surprised if this was the case in conference play. Sure, we can dominate Utah State and Buffalo inside, but without Amile, in the ACC? It sure doesn't seem like we've been doing better at the rim. Miami definitely killed us inside.

Yeah, my guess is that our defense at the rim (to this point) is very much buoyed (both offensively and defensively) by having almost half of our games so far against really weak opponents. If we look at real games (and I'm willing to include VCU and any major conference teams besides Boston College in "real") I suspect we're losing that battle. But, that's just a guess.

azzefkram
02-03-2016, 04:52 PM
I'd be surprised if this was the case in conference play. Sure, we can dominate Utah State and Buffalo inside, but without Amile, in the ACC? It sure doesn't seem like we've been doing better at the rim. Miami definitely killed us inside.

56.5% in league play. Miami was 13 for 18 with all 13 makes assisted.

azzefkram
02-03-2016, 05:02 PM
Yeah, my guess is that our defense at the rim (to this point) is very much buoyed (both offensively and defensively) by having almost half of our games so far against really weak opponents. If we look at real games (and I'm willing to include VCU and any major conference teams besides Boston College in "real") I suspect we're losing that battle. But, that's just a guess.

62.3% for VCU, Kentucky, Indiana, Georgetown and Utah. 59.3% if you combine those games with league play.

Kedsy
02-03-2016, 05:04 PM
56.5% in league play. Miami was 13 for 18 with all 13 makes assisted.

Even better than the full-season number. Miami aside, maybe we're not getting as killed inside as people seem to think.

CDu
02-03-2016, 05:16 PM
62.3% for VCU, Kentucky, Indiana, Georgetown and Utah. 59.3% if you combine those games with league play.

Great data access! Two questions:

1. What is our % in those games, and
2. What % of total makes do the close baskets represent for the good and bad guys?

Kedsy
02-03-2016, 05:27 PM
Great data access! Two questions:

1. What is our % in those games, and
2. What % of total makes do the close baskets represent for the good and bad guys?

I don't have the conference breakdown, but for the entire season, we shoot 37.8% of our shots at the rim and our opponents shoot 41.6% of their shots against us at the rim.

CDu
02-03-2016, 05:29 PM
I don't have the conference breakdown, but for the entire season, we shoot 37.8% of our shots at the rim and our opponents shoot 41.6% of their shots against us at the rim.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to all the "real" games: VCU+majors-BC.

CameronDuke
02-03-2016, 05:31 PM
Just heard on a Laura Keeley radio interview that Amile was in his boot again last night and is out for the NC State as well as Louisville games. His earliest return would be February 13th vs Virginia. That is a stretch, too. Even if he came back that game, he would be back for the last 7 ACC regular season games, the ACC tourney, and the postseason. Can he still redshirt this season?

cato
02-03-2016, 05:34 PM
Just heard on a Laura Keeley radio interview that Amile was in his boot again last night and is out for the NC State as well as Louisville games. His earliest return would be February 13th vs Virginia. That is a stretch, too. Even if he came back that game, he would be back for the last 7 ACC regular season games, the ACC tourney, and the postseason. Can he still redshirt this season?

Why would he redshirt?

CDu
02-03-2016, 05:34 PM
Just heard on a Laura Keeley radio interview that Amile was in his boot again last night and is out for the NC State as well as Louisville games. His earliest return would be February 13th vs Virginia. That is a stretch, too. Even if he came back that game, he would be back for the last 7 ACC regular season games, the ACC tourney, and the postseason. Can he still redshirt this season?

It will depend on how many games we play, but it is possible that if he doesn't play again he could get a medical hardship. I suspect that is not at all in the plans though.

JPtheGame
02-03-2016, 05:41 PM
Just heard on a Laura Keeley radio interview that Amile was in his boot again last night and is out for the NC State as well as Louisville games. His earliest return would be February 13th vs Virginia. That is a stretch, too. Even if he came back that game, he would be back for the last 7 ACC regular season games, the ACC tourney, and the postseason. Can he still redshirt this season?

He's played under 30% of our games so he is eligible to apply for a medshirt (im making that word a thing now). I strongly believe that's what he should do. He's earned better than this for a senior season.

Observation from last night, did it bother anyone else that coach capel left the nations leading free throw shooter on the bench until he had no choice? Under 5 mins, Luke has to be on the floor. Making free throws and not turning it over are the best ways to close out.

cato
02-03-2016, 05:51 PM
He's played under 30% of our games so he is eligible to apply for a medshirt (im making that word a thing now). I strongly believe that's what he should do. He's earned better than this for a senior season.

Observation from last night, did it bother anyone else that coach capel left the nations leading free throw shooter on the bench until he had no choice? Under 5 mins, Luke has to be on the floor. Making free throws and not turning it over are the best ways to close out.

What has happened to Amile's senior season has already happened. Getting an extra year would be another year playing in college after his senior season.

Amile just might have professional aspirations that take precedence. He has, at most, roughly a decade to play pro ball. Likely much shorter. Why burn another year of that in college? Particularly when he is learning, first hand, how easily the opportunity to play can be yanked away.

duke09hms
02-03-2016, 06:01 PM
What has happened to Amile's senior season has already happened. Getting an extra year would be another year playing in college after his senior season.

Amile just might have professional aspirations that take precedence. He has, at most, roughly a decade to play pro ball. Likely much shorter. Why burn another year of that in college? Particularly when he is learning, first hand, how easily the opportunity to play can be yanked away.

Obviously it's up to him, and I'm sure no one at Duke would pressure him to stay a 5th year if he doesn't want to. It would REALLY be a tantalizing prospect next year if he returns. Our already stacked team could really use his senior leadership, experience, and exceptional depth to our frontcourt.

Indoor66
02-03-2016, 06:06 PM
Everyone is always so hard on Matt. Trust me, there's a reason why Coach K will start Matt every single game this season, if health allows. The guy does all the little things that can't be appreciated on first viewing. DVR the games and re-watch while focusing on Matt. Then you'll know.

If I had to bet, I think you will also see Matt starting every game next year as well....:cool:

Devilwin
02-03-2016, 06:26 PM
According to the official box score, Grayson missed four layups, Brandon missed three, and the rest of the team in the aggregate missed one (Derryck). Maybe the play-by-play missed one or two, but even so it sounds like your count is quite high (19 vs. 8).

Watching again, and Grayson had three at the half. Ingram has two, and he threw up some really bad ones. Regardless, we won...:cool:

CameronDuke
02-03-2016, 06:26 PM
Why would he redshirt?

He would redshirt to make up for missing most of his senior season and go out a winner on an ultra talented team with national championship potential. If I were him, I wouldn't want to end my career riding the bench my entire senior season watching the team struggle.

He has capabilities of being a pro, but before his injury, he wasn't listed anywhere that I read or browsed as an NBA prospect that was draft worthy. Maybe someone can elighten me. He would have signed a free agent contract at best before he got hurt. That's just the reality. He potentially could have worked his way up in to a draft worthy prospect but that's a stretch. Again, that's just the reality.

If he redshirted, he could learn from the greatest coach in the country next season and be the premier big man on the team as a fifth year senior while possibly starting graduate level classes.

CameronDuke
02-03-2016, 06:30 PM
It will depend on how many games we play, but it is possible that if he doesn't play again he could get a medical hardship. I suspect that is not at all in the plans though.

Why do you suspect this not being in the plans at all? Do you expect him to come back sometime this year? Most evidence I've browsed points to the contrary at this point. And if he were to come back, would it be worth it? The later Duke gets into the season, the less he would contribute in terms of saving the season. I mean, we are halfway through the league schedule and he's going to miss the first 11 games of ACC play at a minimum. If he comes back and we are looking at a 6-9 seed for the ACC tourney or something along those lines and a low seed in the NCAA Tourney, I don't see the benefit of bringing him back when we could use a polished, senior front court player extremely badly next season. I realize his decision has a lot to do with this and I'm not trying to be selfish, but the fact that you dismissed it altogether seemingly was a head scratcher to me. Maybe I'm missing something on when Duke expects him back? He was in a boot again last night...

slower
02-03-2016, 06:53 PM
What has happened to Amile's senior season has already happened. Getting an extra year would be another year playing in college after his senior season.

Amile just might have professional aspirations that take precedence. He has, at most, roughly a decade to play pro ball. Likely much shorter. Why burn another year of that in college? Particularly when he is learning, first hand, how easily the opportunity to play can be yanked away.


Okay, I'll probably get hammered for saying this, but so be it.

Why do you think Amile is a pro prospect? He can't shoot. He WON'T shoot. Seriously, even Lance Thomas and (gulp) Josh Hairston would put up a mid-range jumper when left alone. Amile looks like the ball is radioactive when he's left open. Seriously, maybe he'll play in Europe or the D-league or something. But the NBA? Come on.

And yeah, even though almost nobody will dare say it, he's EXACTLY what we need for next year. We'd be a Final Four lock with Amile, possibly the title favorite.

cato
02-03-2016, 07:00 PM
Okay, I'll probably get hammered for saying this, but so be it.

Why do you think Amile is a pro prospect? He can't shoot. He WON'T shoot. Seriously, even Lance Thomas and (gulp) Josh Hairston would put up a mid-range jumper when left alone. Amile looks like the ball is radioactive when he's left open. Seriously, maybe he'll play in Europe or the D-league or something. But the NBA? Come on.

And yeah, even though almost nobody will dare say it, he's EXACTLY what we need for next year. We'd be a Final Four lock with Amile, possibly the title favorite.

You are the person who mentioned the NBA, not me.

I have long since learned that I cannot figure out who will get a shot at, or stick in, the NBA. But I would be absolutely shocked if Amile could not earn a pay check playing basketball next year, assuming he is healthy and wants to do so.

And if he does want to play pro ball, well, fugit inreparabile tempus.

I would love to have Amile back for an extra year. I simply do not assume that he wants to spend a post grad year playing in college.

slower
02-03-2016, 07:10 PM
You are the person who mentioned the NBA, not me.

I have long since learned that I cannot figure out who will get a shot at, or stick in, the NBA. But I would be absolutely shocked if Amile could not earn a pay check playing basketball next year, assuming he is healthy and wants to do so.

And if he does want to play pro ball, well, fugit inreparabile tempus.

I would love to have Amile back for an extra year. I simply do not assume that he wants to spend a post grad year playing in college.


Well, "you" didn't refer to YOU, specifically. :p

But you make good points. I was throwing pasta against the wall to see if it would stick.

I guess it depends on whether Amile would value another legitimate title run (because it's just not gonna happen this year) over an extra year playing professionally in some capacity.

sagegrouse
02-03-2016, 07:22 PM
Do we know that DT is not popular in the locker room, or are we just assuming that?


Not at all, that's just speculation. Not sure where it even started. I'm no insider, but even if that were the case, I'm sure the coaches/captains would put an end to that long before anything malicious would come of it.

The discussion on which you are commenting has no business on the DBR Board. Your comments are totally appropriate. The subject messages are malicious speculation, and those posts should be deleted.

azzefkram
02-03-2016, 07:38 PM
Great data access! Two questions:

1. What is our % in those games, and
2. What % of total makes do the close baskets represent for the good and bad guys?

45.9% for Utah, Ind, VCU, Georgetown, Kentucky. 55.9% for those games plus league. Those numbers are pretty heavily skewed by the Utah debacle (13 of 38). If you drop Utah, the good guys were 50.5% for VCU, Ind, Georgetwon, Kentucky and 59% for the 4 plus league.

46.6% of our makes against the above 5 came at the rim. 48.2% of our makes at the rim in league play. I'll dig up the bad guys info tomorrow.

The five games under discussion also occurred before Brandon "broke out." Brandon shot 38.1% at the rim in those games. In league play he is shooting 59.3% at the rim.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 08:44 PM
Okay, I'll probably get hammered for saying this, but so be it.


Why do you think Amile is a pro prospect? He can't shoot. He WON'T shoot. Seriously, even Lance Thomas and (gulp) Josh Hairston would put up a mid-range jumper when left alone. Amile looks like the ball is radioactive when he's left open. Seriously, maybe he'll play in Europe or the D-league or something. But the NBA? Come on.


And yeah, even though almost nobody will dare say it, he's EXACTLY what we need for next year. We'd be a Final Four lock with Amile, possibly the title favorite.

Wait a second. Aren't you the poster that always gets on people for predicting individual games to be locks?



Why do you suspect this not being in the plans at all? Do you expect him to come back sometime this year? Most evidence I've browsed points to the contrary at this point. And if he were to come back, would it be worth it? The later Duke gets into the season, the less he would contribute in terms of saving the season. I mean, we are halfway through the league schedule and he's going to miss the first 11 games of ACC play at a minimum. If he comes back and we are looking at a 6-9 seed for the ACC tourney or something along those lines and a low seed in the NCAA Tourney, I don't see the benefit of bringing him back when we could use a polished, senior front court player extremely badly next season. I realize his decision has a lot to do with this and I'm not trying to be selfish, but the fact that you dismissed it altogether seemingly was a head scratcher to me. Maybe I'm missing something on when Duke expects him back? He was in a boot again last night...

Amile should be back soon. The only question is whether Keeley's report was a smokescreen or not. He can be back as soon as NCSU, and I don't think he'll be back any later than UVA.

slower
02-03-2016, 08:51 PM
Wait a second. Aren't you the poster that always gets on people for predicting individual games to be locks?

Point taken. Although you're comparing tangerines to oranges. :p

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 08:57 PM
Calm down. And hey, guess what? We didn't really try anything new and fancy, and we won. How about that? It was a well-coached game by Coach Capel. He made the adjustment to switch to man after the half, and we played great defense.

Oh, KaZe, I'm always calm. That post was very tongue-in-cheek towards you.

And, YES, there was a wrinkle in this game. (Actually, there were two wrinkles with the second being Ingram playing some point guard, but the payoff for that practice will be in future games; it was irrelevant for GaTech).

The wrinkle was for MP3, on ball screens, to concede the pull-up 3 so he can stand closer to the basket to defend the drive, the roller, and against offensive rebounders. I'll have more on this later.




We clearly had a misunderstanding on the scope of your "new wrinkles," but I don't even really agree that Marshall being positioned down low can be considered "a new wrinkle." Where else is he supposed to be on offense? Out at the 3 point line? Grayson has just been doing a great job finding him for easy finishes, and unlike previous iterations of MP3, he has the hands to catch the ball cleanly now. Drawing the defense on a drive and giving an open big man the ball down low is not a difficult concept. That's basketball 101. We've been doing this for a long time. It was just Amile more often early in the year.

Except that... prior to the Elon game, MP3 had NOT been spending significant time standing on the baseline. He was involved in dribble-hand-offs at the elbow (which he still does) and in ball-screens. But, the coaches and players openly talked about how putting MP3 on the baseline opened up the offense for them. It was an important wrinkle for our first few ACC wins, although opponents like Miami have started to adjust.

Neals384
02-03-2016, 08:57 PM
My comments on this game are about GTech. Brian Gregory must be the anit-Coach K. 10 men played 10 minutes or more. Mitchell, who averages a double-double, played just 11 minutes (was he sick?). Jacobs, who killed us with 17 and 8, played just 25 minutes. On the other hand, Stephens played 20 minutes and picked up 4 fouls to go with 1-4 shooting.

In fact, GT has ten guys averaging 10 minutes or more. It's no wonder they looked discombobulated at times. On the front line, Mitchell averages 25 minutes, Jacobs 22, Stephens, White and Lammers 14 minutes each. I can't imagine K ever splitting 89 minutes among 5 guys. White is foul-prone, and it's hard to understand why more of his minutes (or Stephens') don't go to the others.

CDu
02-03-2016, 09:00 PM
My comments on this game are about GTech. Brian Gregory must be the anit-Coach K. 10 men played 10 minutes or more. Mitchell, who averages a double-double, played just 11 minutes (was he sick?). Jacobs, who killed us with 17 and 8, played just 25 minutes. On the other hand, Stephens played 20 minutes and picked up 4 fouls to go with 1-4 shooting.

In fact, GT has ten guys averaging 10 minutes or more. It's no wonder they looked discombobulated at times. On the front line, Mitchell averages 25 minutes, Jacobs 22, Stephens, White and Lammers 14 minutes each. I can't imagine K ever splitting 89 minutes among 5 guys. White is foul-prone, and it's hard to understand why more of his minutes (or Stephens') don't go to the others.

It was very weird that Tech never went with the combo of Jacobs and Mitchell. Especially in the second half when things started going south. That was the one advantage they had, and they never went to it.

jimsumner
02-03-2016, 09:12 PM
The expectation is that Jefferson will return this season.

A medical redshirt only comes into the equation if there is a significant setback in his treatment. Which has not happened.

Lance Thomas averaged 4.8 points and 4.9 rebounds per game as a senior, making 43.9 percent from the field, 74.3 from the line, with eight blocked shots(Nolan Smith had nine) and 25 more turnovers than assists. Thomas had 24 steals in 40 games, 0.6 per game.

Jefferson was averaging a double-double when he went down, 68 percent from the field, 55 from the line, with 11 blocks and one more turnover than assist. Jefferson had 7 steals in 9 games, 0.77 per game.

Some of those stats likely drop off a bit with conference play, had Jefferson been healthy. But it's hard for me to imagine him dropping anywhere near Thomas level.

So, it seems to me that if Lance Thomas can carve out an NBA career--and kudos to him--that it's premature to rule that out for Jefferson.

CameronDuke
02-03-2016, 09:14 PM
Wait a second. Aren't you the poster that always gets on people for predicting individual games to be locks?




Amile should be back soon. The only question is whether Keeley's report was a smokescreen or not. He can be back as soon as NCSU, and I don't think he'll be back any later than UVA.

I hope you're right, but I would be very surprised if he played against North Carolina State or Louisville.

Neals384
02-03-2016, 09:27 PM
Eh, might as well list them all out.

Grayson +16
Luke +15
Matt +15
Brandon +14
Marshall +13
Derryck +8

That's the minutes-adjusted plus-minus for our 6 regulars through the Miami game.

All that said, it would make sense that Derryck, who missed the summer and is a freshman, could have a late burst of improvement in February and March. I'm rooting hard for him to become a good point guard. Coach Capel said that he played well in the 2nd-half of the Miami, so they took a chance on him. And he obviously played well overall last night. Hopefully this continues.

Thornton has improved a bunch, and I'd echo others' comments about his skills (excellent) and decision-making (still needs to improve). Even if you tally ACC games only, he's still has the lowest Plus per 40 of the big 6 (Kennard is only a little better):



Name
'+/-
Mins
Per 40


Allen
74
05:31:03
8.9


Plumlee
65
05:18:55
8.2


Ingram
64
05:34:52
7.6


Jones
45
05:09:35
5.8


Kennard
21
04:18:18
3.3


Thornton
13
03:23:07
2.6

kAzE
02-03-2016, 09:28 PM
Except that... prior to the Elon game, MP3 had NOT been spending significant time standing on the baseline. He was involved in dribble-hand-offs at the elbow (which he still does) and in ball-screens. But, the coaches and players openly talked about how putting MP3 on the baseline opened up the offense for them. It was an important wrinkle for our first few ACC wins, although opponents like Miami have started to adjust.

In my opinion, this should not be considered a "new wrinkle" just because prior to the Elon game, we were doing the same thing, just with Amile instead of Marshall. Amile's injury has forced Marshall to become our de facto inside dump off guy out of necessity. I don't believe he was never meant to be this big a part of our offense this year, but luckily, he's been pretty great.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 09:40 PM
The wrinkle was for MP3, on ball screens, to concede the pull-up 3 so he can stand closer to the basket to defend the drive, the roller, and against offensive rebounders. I'll have more on this later.

For those that DVRed the game, check out these two plays. Half/Time/Score format.

2H, 16:23, 47-48:

Ball screen up top for Smith. Screen and re-screen sequence. During this entire sequence, MP3 maintains a cushion of 8-12 ft away from Smith, never in danger of getting beaten off the dribble to the basket.
Eventually a re-screen sets Smith up for a pull-up (i.e. off-the-dribble) three-pt attempt. Watch how MP3 concedes the three-pt attempt and stays in the midpost area.
Smith's shot goes up (and eventually misses), and MP3's man, #32, goes in for the offensive rebound. MP3 is able to get a body on #32, and although GaTech was able to get an offensive rebound, it was due to luck of the bounce rather than a numerical advantage inside.


Contrast that play with the following play.

2H, 1:22, 74-65:

Duke is now playing "no threes allowed" defense with the lead.
Again, this is a ball screen for Smith. But watch how MP3 doesn't maintain a cushion and is lifted up towards the 3-pt line.
Smith sees this and drives for the basket with MP3 giving chase. Once again #32, MP3's man, goes in for the offensive rebound.
MP3 is able to force a miss by Smith on the layup attempt, but in doing so, MP3 jumps himself out of the picture for defensive rebounding purposes.
#32 is able to gather in the offensive rebound as Brandon has to fend off two big guys at once.


The second play is how Duke has defended ball-screens for most of the season. It's allowed guys like Gbinije, Demetrius Jackson, and even Steve Vasturia to drive by MP3. Sometimes MP3 recovers and forces a miss, btw, just as he did on that play. But the opponent's big men usually has a great chance to offensive rebound when he does that.

The first play may be how we defend ball screens for the rest of the season. By keeping MP3 a step or two closer to the basket, he can defend the roller, AND he has a better cushion or head start to defend the driver, AND finally, he will have position to block out his man who is going in for the offensive rebound.

The one drawback is that guys like Smith, Gbinije, Jackson, and Vasturia will be able to shoot a pull-up 3, sometimes with a clean look. That's what Duke will have to concede and hope they miss.

I'll list some more plays of interest in another post.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 09:43 PM
Thornton has improved a bunch, and I'd echo others' comments about his skills (excellent) and decision-making (still needs to improve). Even if you tally ACC games only, he's still has the lowest Plus per 40 of the big 6 (Kennard is only a little better):



Name
'+/-
Mins
Per 40


Allen
74
05:31:03
8.9


Plumlee
65
05:18:55
8.2


Ingram
64
05:34:52
7.6


Jones
45
05:09:35
5.8


Kennard
21
04:18:18
3.3


Thornton
13
03:23:07
2.6




Thanks for the ACC-only plus-minus, Neals. Couldn't spork you.

dukelifer
02-03-2016, 09:45 PM
The expectation is that Jefferson will return this season.

A medical redshirt only comes into the equation if there is a significant setback in his treatment. Which has not happened.

Lance Thomas averaged 4.8 points and 4.9 rebounds per game as a senior, making 43.9 percent from the field, 74.3 from the line, with eight blocked shots(Nolan Smith had nine) and 25 more turnovers than assists. Thomas had 24 steals in 40 games, 0.6 per game.

Jefferson was averaging a double-double when he went down, 68 percent from the field, 55 from the line, with 11 blocks and one more turnover than assist. Jefferson had 7 steals in 9 games, 0.77 per game.

Some of those stats likely drop off a bit with conference play, had Jefferson been healthy. But it's hard for me to imagine him dropping anywhere near Thomas level.

So, it seems to me that if Lance Thomas can carve out an NBA career--and kudos to him--that it's premature to rule that out for Jefferson.

If Amile can develop an outside shot- he can play in the NBA. Lance worked hard on his but he have had more natural shooting ability despite what he showed at Duke.

subzero02
02-03-2016, 09:57 PM
Lance needs an NBA paycheck considering the cost of his jewelry habit :-)

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 10:04 PM
More ball screen plays of interest from the game. For all these plays and the two plays above, if you listen hard enough, you can hear MP3 yelling, "ICE, ICE" to alert the guard that the ball screen is coming. Since the beginning of last season, Duke has been ICE-ing ball screens.

2H, 8:55, 65-55:

Sideline ICE of the ball screen for Georges-Hunt. MP3 in position to form the bracket, but he's not too far up that Georges-Hunt has a driving lane.
You guys may remember from the Notre Dame game two plays where Vasturia was in a similar position along the left sideline. Against Notre Dame, both times MP3 got too close to Vasturia, who was then able to beat MP3 baseline and make a reverse layup once he was clear.
The point is, Duke did better here. It's possible Georges-Hunt could've dribbled left and gotten a somewhat clean look at a pull-up 3, but it's probably better to have your big man concede that.


2H, 7:45, 67-55:

Ball screen for Smith. Once again, MP3 leaves enough distance to concede a pull-up 3. Matt's pressure forces Smith into an airball


2H, 6:05, 70-55:

Middle ball screen for Georges-Hunt. Look how far away MP3 is playing this one. He's sunk deep. Georges-Hunt uses the ball screen to drive and MP3 is naturally in position to challenge and force a miss.


I'll have a few more to post. Doing this piecemeal fashion.

Newton_14
02-03-2016, 10:20 PM
More ball screen plays of interest from the game. For all these plays and the two plays above, if you listen hard enough, you can hear MP3 yelling, "ICE, ICE" to alert the guard that the ball screen is coming. Since the beginning of last season, Duke has been ICE-ing ball screens.

2H, 8:55, 65-55:

Sideline ICE of the ball screen for Georges-Hunt. MP3 in position to form the bracket, but he's not too far up that Georges-Hunt has a driving lane.
You guys may remember from the Notre Dame game two plays where Vasturia was in a similar position along the left sideline. Against Notre Dame, both times MP3 got too close to Vasturia, who was then able to beat MP3 baseline and make a reverse layup once he was clear.
The point is, Duke did better here. It's possible Georges-Hunt could've dribbled left and gotten a somewhat clean look at a pull-up 3, but it's probably better to have your big man concede that.


2H, 7:45, 67-55:

Ball screen for Smith. Once again, MP3 leaves enough distance to concede a pull-up 3. Matt's pressure forces Smith into an airball


2H, 6:05, 70-55:

Middle ball screen for Georges-Hunt. Look how far away MP3 is playing this one. He's sunk deep. Georges-Hunt uses the ball screen to drive and MP3 is naturally in position to challenge and force a miss.


I'll have a few more to post. Doing this piecemeal fashion.

Good stuff thanks. Regarding "No threes" defense, anytime Duke is protecting a lead of any size late in the game, you hear K and staff yelling "No fouls, No Threes" over and over, coming out of timeouts or getting back up the court on D in live play. If they get beat off the dribble for a layup, so be it, but have hard instructions to not foul on the attempt (though sometimes guys can resist being too aggressive on the block attempt, and Lord knows if you breathe on anyone there, ACC refs love them some "And-1" calls.

One other thing about last night. I suspect we caught a break, (which I would not want) in that Georges-Hunt very likely got hurt pretty bad on that nasty fall on like the 2nd possession. I did not feel he moved well or looked right after that play.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 10:30 PM
More ball screen plays.

2H, 4:00, 74-59:

GREAT communication on this sideline ICE play.
Matt switches onto Georges-Hunt after a handoff, but behind the handoff was a ball screen coming. MP3 communicates this to Matt who responds by switching in ICE position. Look at how disruptive sideline ICE is. Georges-Hunt could've easily turned the ball over.
As is, Georges-Hunt barely escapes and reverses the ball to Jackson, who receives another ball screen. MP3 concedes the pull-up 3 at the buzzer, which Derryck was able to challenge pretty well despite being screened. Great defense by Duke on this play.



2H, 2:30, 74-61:

It's not all sunshine and puppy dogs. On this sideline ICE, MP3 didn't move his feet fast enough and got called for blocking on Georges-Hunt.


2H, 1:39, 74-65:

BUT WAIT, MP3 redeems himself less than a minute later. Virtually the same play, sideline ICE on George-Hunt, but a very active and aware MP3 cuts off Georges-Hunt and forms a bracket. Georges-Hunt is forced to pass out from a dangerous position, and Matt is in position to pick it off.


Incidentally, many of you guys believe our guards are "beaten off the dribble" all the time when it's really just the technique we play on ball screens called ICE, aka "downing the ball screen" aka "blue-ing it".

Understanding ice is crucial to understanding Duke's defense. Here's a youtube tutorial from Coach Nick (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te4svk4vm1I) that everyone seems to like, explaining sideline ice.

Troublemaker
02-03-2016, 10:45 PM
Is that based on the coaches' poll or the sportswriters' poll?

FPI


If I had to bet, I think you will also see Matt starting every game next year as well...

Yeah, I would count on it. Senior leader and possibly the only upperclassman in the rotation. It'll make heads explode, though.

lotusland
02-04-2016, 08:41 AM
More ball screen plays of interest from the game. For all these plays and the two plays above, if you listen hard enough, you can hear MP3 yelling, "ICE, ICE" to alert the guard that the ball screen is coming. Since the beginning of last season, Duke has been ICE-ing ball screens.

2H, 8:55, 65-55:

Sideline ICE of the ball screen for Georges-Hunt. MP3 in position to form the bracket, but he's not too far up that Georges-Hunt has a driving lane.
You guys may remember from the Notre Dame game two plays where Vasturia was in a similar position along the left sideline. Against Notre Dame, both times MP3 got too close to Vasturia, who was then able to beat MP3 baseline and make a reverse layup once he was clear.
The point is, Duke did better here. It's possible Georges-Hunt could've dribbled left and gotten a somewhat clean look at a pull-up 3, but it's probably better to have your big man concede that.


2H, 7:45, 67-55:

Ball screen for Smith. Once again, MP3 leaves enough distance to concede a pull-up 3. Matt's pressure forces Smith into an airball


2H, 6:05, 70-55:

Middle ball screen for Georges-Hunt. Look how far away MP3 is playing this one. He's sunk deep. Georges-Hunt uses the ball screen to drive and MP3 is naturally in position to challenge and force a miss.


I'll have a few more to post. Doing this piecemeal fashion.
Thanks Trouble - planning to watch replay this evening so this will be handy.

lotusland
02-04-2016, 08:43 AM
Is that based on the coaches' poll or the sportswriters' poll?

KenPom is the only meaningful metric

Indoor66
02-04-2016, 09:11 AM
KenPom is the only meaningful metric


Personally, I check KenPom every morning to get an accurate​ weather report.

Troublemaker
02-04-2016, 09:30 AM
Thanks Trouble - planning to watch replay this evening so this will be handy.

No problem, lotus.

I was thinking about starting a DBR DVR Club where those of us that DVR and re-watch at least some of the games can commentate on plays/possessions that we find interesting, similar to how I did it in the above posts.

If you guys are interested in forming a DBR DVR Club, then let us know by posting in this thread or PM-ing me.

We'll do it if the number of people interested is high enough.

azzefkram
02-04-2016, 10:24 AM
No problem, lotus.

I was thinking about starting a DBR DVR Club where those of us that DVR and re-watch at least some of the games can commentate on plays/possessions that we find interesting, similar to how I did it in the above posts.

If you guys are interested in forming a DBR DVR Club, then let us know by posting in this thread or PM-ing me.

We'll do it if the number of people interested is high enough.

I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, I think it would get bogged down in the committee at the azzefkram household. I just might troll my lovely bride with the suggestion though.

Troublemaker
02-04-2016, 10:34 AM
Video examples of how Duke has played the ball-screen prior to the Miami/GaTech games can be found in opponents' highlight reels.

Here is Syracuse's reel against us. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XeBLl5CtD8) Watch this reel and then watch the GaTech second-half (when we played m2m) and see the contrast in how MP3 is positioned.

(Note: these plays are shown from a baseline angle instead of the TV angle, but you can still see what I'm talking about.)

0:08:
Not related to the discussion, but man, we've got to get better on calling out these screens that keep knocking Derryck down.

0:20:
Look how high MP3 is on this ball screen to prevent Gbinije from firing a pull-up 3. Although, in this case, it didn't hurt us as Gbinije gave it up to Roberson. MP3 has to have better footwork when recovering to Roberson so that he isn't blown by for the layup.

0:42:
Again, look how high MP3 is to prevent Gbinije from taking a pull-up 3. The ironic thing is Syracuse gets an open 3, anyway. With MP3 up high, Roberson rolls, which causes Matt to help down on Roberson. Matt's man is Lydon who pops out for the open 3.

1:30:
Syracuse was a rough game for Derryck. This play is unrelated, but Duke guards always switch these guard-to-guard dribble handoffs. Derryck didn't switch onto Cooney, and Matt had to feebly trail Cooney but couldn't contest. Matt yells at Derryck.

1:40:
Communication breakdown. Watch how MP3 yells "ICE" to Grayson who doesn't respond by getting into ICE position (denying the screen, forcing Cooney baseline towards MP3.) Had Grayson received the communication and forced Cooney baseline in this situation (clock running down), our defense actually would've worked by having MP3 contest Cooney's pull-up 3. Instead Cooney went the other direction, still hitting a tough shot, but it could've been tougher.

1:54:
MP3 too high on the ball screen. Gbinije gets by him for the layup.

2:07:
Sideline ICE, but MP3 is too far out and/or isn't in an active defensive stance soon enough. Richardson beats him for a layup.

2:45:
C'mon, Matt. Richardson's a shooter so you gotta get out there with your hand up.

3:00:
Unrelated to discussion. Just a blow-by and dropoff. These are rare compared to ball screen mishaps.

3:43:
MP3 high on the ball screen. Roberson rolls and gets an and-1. If MP3 had been lower and conceded a Gbinije pull-up, he might've prevented the roller Roberson from receiving the pass.

FerryFor50
02-04-2016, 10:42 AM
Video examples of how Duke has played the ball-screen prior to the Miami/GaTech games can be found in opponents' highlight reels.

Here is Syracuse's reel against us. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XeBLl5CtD8) Watch this reel and then watch the GaTech second-half (when we played m2m) and see the contrast in how MP3 is positioned.

(Note: these plays are shown from a baseline angle instead of the TV angle, but you can still see what I'm talking about.)

0:08:
Not related to the discussion, but man, we've got to get better on calling out these screens that keep knocking Derryck down.

0:20:
Look how high MP3 is on this ball screen to prevent Gbinije from firing a pull-up 3. Although, in this case, it didn't hurt us as Gbinije gave it up to Roberson. MP3 has to have better footwork when recovering to Roberson so that he isn't blown by for the layup.

0:42:
Again, look how high MP3 is to prevent Gbinije from taking a pull-up 3. The ironic thing is Syracuse gets an open 3, anyway. With MP3 up high, Roberson rolls, which causes Matt to help down on Roberson. Matt's man is Lydon who pops out for the open 3.

1:30:
Syracuse was a rough game for Derryck. This play is unrelated, but Duke guards always switch these guard-to-guard dribble handoffs. Derryck didn't switch onto Cooney, and Matt had to feebly trail Cooney but couldn't contest. Matt yells at Derryck.

1:40:
Communication breakdown. Watch how MP3 yells "ICE" to Grayson who doesn't respond by getting into ICE position (denying the screen, forcing Cooney baseline towards MP3.) Had Grayson received the communication and forced Cooney baseline in this situation (clock running down), our defense actually would've worked by having MP3 contest Cooney's pull-up 3. Instead Cooney went the other direction, still hitting a tough shot, but it could've been tougher.

1:54:
MP3 too high on the ball screen. Gbinije gets by him for the layup.

2:07:
Sideline ICE, but MP3 is too far out and/or isn't in an active defensive stance soon enough. Richardson beats him for a layup.

2:45:
C'mon, Matt. Richardson's a shooter so you gotta get out there with your hand up.

3:00:
Unrelated to discussion. Just a blow-by and dropoff. These are rare compared to ball screen mishaps.

3:43:
MP3 high on the ball screen. Roberson rolls and gets an and-1. If MP3 had been lower and conceded a Gbinije pull-up, he might've prevented the roller Roberson from receiving the pass.

Can't spork you, but geez, great work!

Steven43
02-04-2016, 10:42 AM
Capel borrowed the keys to the car last night - at some point it looks like he will be getting title to the car

Gosh, I sure hope you're wrong about that. I like Coach Capel, but I think there are significantly better candidates for the most prestigious job in college basketball.

JPtheGame
02-04-2016, 10:44 AM
The discussion on which you are commenting has no business on the DBR Board. Your comments are totally appropriate. The subject messages are malicious speculation, and those posts should be deleted.

Can we still submit whimsical, cheeky, or lighthearted speculation? I hope so because if we are going to start requiring facts, this board will collapse.

JPtheGame
02-04-2016, 10:50 AM
Gosh, I sure hope you're wrong about that. I like Coach Capel, but I think there are significantly better candidates for the most prestigious job in college basketball.

Recruiting is a huge part of the gig. In that regard, id be very happy to have Capel lead the way until the Jon Scheyer/Nolan Smith co-coaching team is ready.

mo.st.dukie
02-04-2016, 11:00 AM
Gosh, I sure hope you're wrong about that. I like Coach Capel, but I think there are significantly better candidates for the most prestigious job in college basketball.

I'm not so sure. He did a great job laying the foundation at VCU. He was a big time recruiter at OU until he had a misstep. Took OU to the Elite Eight with Griffin. Brought in big time recruits like Willie Warren, Tiny Gallon, and Tommy Mason-Griffin.

Now add in his experience as an assistant under K and the Team USA experience plus having the history, prestige, and support at Duke, I'm not sure there will be better candidates available with the exception of maybe a few other former Duke players.

azzefkram
02-04-2016, 11:03 AM
Against Kentucky, VCU, Georgetown, Indiana and Utah, the bad guys had 68.3% of their makes at the rim. In league play (to Miami), the bad guys had 52.5% of their makes at the rim.

As an aside, what do you think our 3 worst performances were with respect to makes at the rim as a percentage of total makes? (First 2 are gimmees, the third is obvious once you read it)

The answer is below

Kentucky, Utah, Wake Forest

Troublemaker
02-04-2016, 11:38 AM
I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, I think it would get bogged down in the committee at the azzefkram household. I just might troll my lovely bride with the suggestion though.

Nobody would be expected to re-watch every game. I surely couldn't do that.

But if someone could contribute once every two games or once every three games, that seems fine to me. If enough people do it, then every game will be covered by the collective.

Steven43
02-04-2016, 11:46 AM
I'm not so sure. He did a great job laying the foundation at VCU. He was a big time recruiter at OU until he had a misstep. Took OU to the Elite Eight with Griffin. Brought in big time recruits like Willie Warren, Tiny Gallon, and Tommy Mason-Griffin.

Now add in his experience as an assistant under K and the Team USA experience plus having the history, prestige, and support at Duke, I'm not sure there will be better candidates available with the exception of maybe a few other former Duke players.

You know, I think your comments have some validity, although I think the name "Duke" and everything it implies and connotes these days will always go a long way towards helping procure high-level recruits, regardless of who the coach might be. Coach K has built the program to such an elite level that I don't ever expect recruiting to be a huge problem.

I don't think Coach Capel has the best demeanor for this job. I won't go into details on that, but I think those of you who have watched him over the years know what I'm talking about.

I don't think he has proven to be a great X's and O's guy. I don't think he has proven to be a winner at the highest level. Getting to the Elite 8 with Blake Griffin--who was a man among boys--on your team doesn't really tell me a whole lot. And don't forget that shortly after that the program took a huge drop and Coach Capel was fired. I don't think one can just slough that off as if it didn't happen.

I would prefer to hire a coach who does not have a failure such as that on his resume. You have to ask yourself why the program at Oklahoma took such a sudden and dramatic turn for the worse. Why was he unable to prevent that? He already had the program at a high-level, so at that point it's just about maintaining and continuing to build on that. He did just the opposite.

Again, I like Coach Capel and he appears to be doing a great job at Duke as an ASSISTANT coach. I don't believe that is evidence one way or the other that he could step into Coach K's shoes.

I think the one guy who I would have no doubts about whatsoever--and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here--is Brad Stevens. I think Duke should be laying the groundwork now for an all-out blitz to hire him as soon as they even get an inkling that Coach K will be retiring.

Jeffrey
02-04-2016, 12:12 PM
I would prefer to hire a coach who does not have a failure such as that on his resume.

We all fail, it's how we learn from, and respond to, our failure that most determines our destiny.

The Mighty Quin rocks!

kAzE
02-04-2016, 12:17 PM
You know, I think your comments have some validity, although I think the name "Duke" and everything it implies and connotes these days will always go a long way towards helping procure high-level recruits, regardless of who the coach might be. Coach K has built the program to such an elite level that I don't ever expect recruiting to be a huge problem.

I don't think Coach Capel has the best demeanor for this job. I won't go into details on that, but I think those of you who have watched him over the years know what I'm talking about.

I don't think he has proven to be a great X's and O's guy. I don't think he has proven to be a winner at the highest level. Getting to the Elite 8 with Blake Griffin--who was a man among boys--on your team doesn't really tell me a whole lot. And don't forget that shortly after that the program took a huge drop and Coach Capel was fired. I don't think one can just slough that off as if it didn't happen.

I would prefer to hire a coach who does not have a failure such as that on his resume. You have to ask yourself why the program at Oklahoma took such a sudden and dramatic turn for the worse. Why was he unable to prevent that? He already had the program at a high-level, so at that point it's just about maintaining and continuing to build on that. He did just the opposite.

Again, I like Coach Capel and he appears to be doing a great job at Duke as an ASSISTANT coach. I don't believe that is evidence one way or the other that he could step into Coach K's shoes.

I think the one guy who I would have no doubts about whatsoever--and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here--is Brad Stevens. I think Duke should be laying the groundwork now for an all-out blitz to hire him as soon as they even get an inkling that Coach K will be retiring.

We've already talked about this a hundred times, and I was right there with you when he was still at Butler, but just stop it. That's not going to happen . . . most NBA savvy people would agree that Stevens is probably one of the best coaches in the NBA, and Danny Ainge loves him. He's going to be in Boston for a long, long time. Personally, I think Capel should be at or near the top of the list right now. Wojo/Collins/Dawkins need to prove that they can secure big time talent away from Durham before I can buy into them. Capel's already done that at OU. He's proven his ability to recruit studs year after year, and just about every coach who has ever had major success at the national level does it with elite talent.

Steven43
02-04-2016, 12:37 PM
We've already talked about this a hundred times, and I was right there with you when he was still at Butler, but just stop it. That's not going to happen . . . most NBA savvy people would agree that Stevens is probably one of the best coaches in the NBA, and Danny Ainge loves him. He's going to be in Boston for a long, long time. Personally, I think Capel should be at or near the top of the list right now. Wojo/Collins/Dawkins need to prove that they can secure big time talent away from Durham before I can buy into them. Capel's already done that at OU. He's proven his ability to recruit studs year after year, and just about every coach who has ever had major success at the national level does it with elite talent.

I get what you're saying and I respect your position. However, do you honestly think that the recruits Duke has gotten since Coach Capel has come on board are more about him or more about Coach K, Duke Basketball, and Duke University?

gus
02-04-2016, 12:47 PM
... although I think the name "Duke" and everything it implies and connotes these days will always go a long way towards helping procure high-level recruits, regardless of who the coach might be. Coach K has built the program to such an elite level that I don't ever expect recruiting to be a huge problem.

Statements like this one are why this will be a difficult job when coach K retires. Fan expectations are unrealistic.

Yes, coach K built an elite program. But recruiting isn't automatic for him -- why would it be for his successor?

Don't forget Matt Doherty delivered Carolina's first losing season in decades after he no longer had Smith's final recruits to help him. He ultimately was able to secure a good class later (that would benefit Williams more than him), but there's a reason Smith never had a losing record after his first one. UCLA post-wooden has been a roller coaster. Some coaches have had success, others miserable failures.

53n206
02-04-2016, 12:48 PM
Regarding Coach Stevens, in the pros he doesn't have to recruit, just work with the general manager to making draft choices and help in deciding who to trade for, or add as free agents, his team. So what he really does his coach. With success, and being with the Celtics, I think that's a pretty good place to stay.
As Duke, when our coach retires, I think he'll have a lot to say in choosing his successor. Not necessarily the last word but his opinion will be valued. I think he asked who is successor might be. Capel certainly lost a lot of ground with his last few years at Oklahoma.
.

Troublemaker
02-04-2016, 01:01 PM
I think the one guy who I would have no doubts about whatsoever--and I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here--is Brad Stevens. I think Duke should be laying the groundwork now for an all-out blitz to hire him as soon as they even get an inkling that Coach K will be retiring.

Look, nobody's going to be able to convince you otherwise. You seem destined to have your hopes raised for years and years before getting your heart ripped out in the end when Stevens just plain isn't interested.

The Boston Celtics are a better job than Duke.

You say Duke should "lay the groundwork for an all-out blitz" of Stevens when Coach K retires. Tell me what your pitch would be.

Is it: "Hey, Mr. Brainiac Brad Stevens. Please leave the most hallowed franchise in the NBA to return to the college game where strategy isn't nearly as intellectually stimulating, you don't get to compete against the best minds in basketball, and you can't just focus only on basketball alongside other grown men professionals, but rather you have to bust your butt on the recruiting trail traveling to high school gyms to kiss up to teenagers"?

FerryFor50
02-04-2016, 01:04 PM
Look, nobody's going to be able to convince you otherwise. You seem destined to have your hopes raised for years and years before getting your heart ripped out in the end when Stevens just plain isn't interested.

The Boston Celtics are a better job than Duke.

You say Duke should "lay the groundwork for an all-out blitz" of Stevens when Coach K retires. Tell me what your pitch would be.

Is it: "Hey, Mr. Brainiac Brad Stevens. Please leave the most hallowed franchise in the NBA to return to the college game where strategy isn't nearly as intellectually stimulating, you don't get to compete against the best minds in basketball, and you can't just focus only on basketball alongside other grown men professionals, but rather you have to bust your butt on the recruiting trail traveling to high school gyms to kiss up to teenagers"?

You forgot "worry about qualifying academics, keeping kids in line and going to class and keeping agents and nefarious 3rd parties away from the program."

cato
02-04-2016, 01:10 PM
You forgot "worry about qualifying academics, keeping kids in line and going to class and keeping agents and nefarious 3rd parties away from the program."

And, "you'll have to uproot your family and move to Durham, where the kids will be outsiders and everyone will have to start over meeting new people while you spend all of your time at your job."

kAzE
02-04-2016, 01:12 PM
I get what you're saying and I respect your position. However, do you honestly think that the recruits Duke has gotten since Coach Capel has come on board are more about him or more about Coach K, Duke Basketball, and Duke University?

Absolutely Coach K and Duke. BUT the level of recruiting has gone up pretty significantly since Capel came back to Durham, so I'd say he definitely has had a significant, perhaps even championship winning contribution. Here's some supporting data from Scout.com

Before Capel:
2005: #2 overall class, 5 total recruits, 2 5-star recruits (McRoberts and Paulus), 4.40 average stars
2006: #4, 4 total, 3 5-stars (Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas), 4.75
2007: #6, 3 total, 1 5-star (Singler), 4.33
2008: #13, 3 total, 1 5-star (Williams), 4.33
2009: #8, 3 total, 2 5-stars (Kelly and Plumlee 2), 4.67
2010: #8, 3 total, 1 5-star (Irving), 4.00 (Plus Curry)
2011: #2, 5 total, 1 5 star (Rivers), 4.20

After Capel:
2012: #11, 2 total, 2 5-stars (Sulaimon and Jefferson), 5.00
2013: #3, 3 total, 3 5-stars (Jones, Parker, and Ojeleye), 5.00 (Plus Hood)
2014: #1, 4 total, 4 5-stars (Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Allen), 5.00
2015: #2, 5 total, 4 5-stars (Ingram, Thornton, Jeter, Kennard), 4.60
2016: #2 (so far), 4 total, 3 5-stars (Giles, Tatum, Jackson), 4.75

Not saying Capel had a hand in all of those recruits, but he was the point man in the recruitment of Rodney Hood, Jabari Parker, Tyus Jones, Jahlil Okafor, and Justise Winslow. Not sure of his direct involvement with the 2016 class, but I'm sure he played no small part.

From the data above, it's easy to see that the average quality of recruits coming in has gone up since Coach Capel's return to the program.

mkirsh
02-04-2016, 01:15 PM
"and face impossibly high expectations and follow in the footsteps of a legend to which the fanbase will constantly compare you"

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-04-2016, 01:46 PM
Bobby Hurley!

The Gordog
02-04-2016, 01:51 PM
Absolutely Coach K and Duke. BUT the level of recruiting has gone up pretty significantly since Capel came back to Durham, so I'd say he definitely has had a significant, perhaps even championship winning contribution. Here's some supporting data from Scout.com

Before Capel:
2005: #2 overall class, 5 total recruits, 2 5-star recruits (McRoberts and Paulus), 4.40 average stars
2006: #4, 4 total, 3 5-stars (Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas), 4.75
2007: #6, 3 total, 1 5-star (Singler), 4.33
2008: #13, 3 total, 1 5-star (Williams), 4.33
2009: #8, 3 total, 2 5-stars (Kelly and Plumlee 2), 4.67
2010: #8, 3 total, 1 5-star (Irving), 4.00 (Plus Curry)
2011: #2, 5 total, 1 5 star (Rivers), 4.20

After Capel:
2012: #11, 2 total, 2 5-stars (Sulaimon and Jefferson), 5.00
2013: #3, 3 total, 3 5-stars (Jones, Parker, and Ojeleye), 5.00 (Plus Hood)
2014: #1, 4 total, 4 5-stars (Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Allen), 5.00
2015: #2, 5 total, 4 5-stars (Ingram, Thornton, Jeter, Kennard), 4.60
2016: #2 (so far), 4 total, 3 5-stars (Giles, Tatum, Jackson), 4.75

Not saying Capel had a hand in all of those recruits, but he was the point man in the recruitment of Rodney Hood, Jabari Parker, Tyus Jones, Jahlil Okafor, and Justise Winslow. Not sure of his direct involvement with the 2016 class, but I'm sure he played no small part.

From the data above, it's easy to see that the average quality of recruits coming in has gone up since Coach Capel's return to the program.

You left out
2012: Michael Gbinije (4-stars)
2013: Alex Murphy (4-stars)
2015 (plus Obi) (2-stars)

We have certainly recruited more players since his arrival due to a change in strategy/ability to land 1 and done players. I would say that landing them goes to the head coach, but talent evaluation starts with the assistants. We have been wrong about the readiness of players to contribute at Duke at a higher rate than we used to (IMHO.)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-04-2016, 02:38 PM
We have been wrong about the readiness of players to contribute at Duke at a higher rate than we used to (IMHO.)

I think it is just that we have to recruit MORE players as a result of OAD and transfers, therefore the same percentage of players "not ready" correlates to a high number of players who are "not ready."

FerryFor50
02-04-2016, 02:38 PM
I think it is just that we have to recruit MORE players as a result of OAD and transfers, therefore the same percentage of players "not ready" correlates to a high number of players who are "not ready."

That and guys who normally wouldn't have sniffed the court as freshman might be thrust into action before they are ready due to OADs that come unexpectedly.

Kedsy
02-04-2016, 02:46 PM
We have been wrong about the readiness of players to contribute at Duke at a higher rate than we used to (IMHO.)

This is a very odd statement. First of all, how do you define "readiness"? For example, do you count Derryck Thornton as "ready to contribute at Duke"? He's playing 25 mpg and producing stats very similar to Will Avery's in 1997-98. Second, how do you measure how "wrong" we were when dealing with recruits rated in the 20s and 30s like Matt Jones and Josh Hairston? Did anyone really expect either of those guys to contribute at a high level right off the bat? This would be even more pronounced with lower recruits like Tyler Thornton or Olek Czyz or Antonio Vrankovic or Miles and Marshall Plumlee. Third, if a guy doesn't play much, how can you tell if he's ready or not (think Grayson Allen, 2015)? Fourth, what's "now" and what's "used to"? Hard to make comparisons if you don't know the timeframe.

Finally, how are you calculating the rate? If you're talking about 2011 and earlier, here's a partial list of Duke recruits who weren't ready to set the world on fire right out of the gate:

Marty Nessley
George Burgin
Kenny Blakeney
Kevin Strickland
Billy King
Quin Snyder
John Smith
Phil Henderson
Alaa Abdelnaby
Joe Cook
Christian Ast
Joey Beard
Brian Davis
Thomas Hill
Marty Clark
Clay Buckley
Crawford Palmer
Erik Meek
Tony Moore
Greg Newton
Carmen Wallace
Nate James
Matt Christensen
Casey Sanders
Nick Horvath
Andre Sweet
Sean Dockery
Lee Melchionni
Michael Thompson
Eric Boateng
Jamal Boykin
Dave McClure
Marty Pocius
Brian Zoubek
Olek Czyz
Miles Plumlee
Ryan Kelly
Josh Hairston

That's more than one per season, probably a pretty similar rate to what we've experienced more recently.

Ultimately, it seems very possible your conclusion is based on a recency bias.

COYS
02-04-2016, 02:58 PM
That and guys who normally wouldn't have sniffed the court as freshman might be thrust into action before they are ready due to OADs that come unexpectedly.

I would go as far as to say this isn't even unique to the OAD era (although time may tell if this becomes more frequent). '06-'07 saw a number of guys get big minutes who coulda/shoulda/woulda been able to bide their time a little bit more before being called on to make big contributions. '04-'05's team was left slightly undermanned by the unplanned departure of Luol Deng and the decision of Shaun Livingston to skip college, altogether (that team was really good, anyway, but can you imagine how much better it would have been with Livingston and Deng on the court, together along with Shelden, Ewing, and Redick?). I mentioned this before, but the 2000 team is similar to this one, in many ways. A six/seven man rotation that relies heavily on freshmen except for this year, the veteran leader got injured. Ideally Duke wouldn't have had so many departures from the 1999 super-team so that the 2000 freshmen could ease into things. It didn't happen that way and a team that very easily could have gone back to the Final Four was left more vulnerable (though still VERY successful).

Anyway, I think that perhaps Coach K's greatest strength is his adaptability. He has coached teams that lacked depth to titles and he's coached teams heavily dependent on freshmen that might not be completely ready for grade A Duke-style prime-time to ACC Titles and 1 Seeds. If anything went wrong this season that is different from seasons past, it is the injury to Amile. I don't think the frequency of freshmen not being ready for prime time has increased at all. I just think it's more glaring this season because Amile's injury has put even more weight on freshmen whose flaws are more easily exposed.

duke79
02-04-2016, 03:26 PM
Statements like this one are why this will be a difficult job when coach K retires. Fan expectations are unrealistic.

Yes, coach K built an elite program. But recruiting isn't automatic for him -- why would it be for his successor?

Don't forget Matt Doherty delivered Carolina's first losing season in decades after he no longer had Smith's final recruits to help him. He ultimately was able to secure a good class later (that would benefit Williams more than him), but there's a reason Smith never had a losing record after his first one. UCLA post-wooden has been a roller coaster. Some coaches have had success, others miserable failures.

I agree with you on this point. I think whomever succeeds Coach K will not necessarily have an easy road. History at other top programs (esp. UCLA) tells us that it is not automatic that the winning tradition continues. Furthermore, it's hard to know today what the college basketball landscape will look like 5 or 10 years from now, if and when K decided to retire. Will the NBA do away with the OAD rule, allowing top HS players to go straight to the NBA? Will the ACC continue to be one of the top BB conferences? Will Duke give the next BB coach all of advantages that K presently has (i.e., admissions and almost unlimited funding)? The bottom line is that it can be tough to succeed a legend, in almost any endeavor.

The Gordog
02-04-2016, 04:55 PM
I agree with you on this point. I think whomever succeeds Coach K will not necessarily have an easy road. History at other top programs (esp. UCLA) tells us that it is not automatic that the winning tradition continues. Furthermore, it's hard to know today what the college basketball landscape will look like 5 or 10 years from now, if and when K decided to retire. Will the NBA do away with the OAD rule, allowing top HS players to go straight to the NBA? Will the ACC continue to be one of the top BB conferences? Will Duke give the next BB coach all of advantages that K presently has (i.e., admissions and almost unlimited funding)? The bottom line is that it can be tough to succeed a legend, in almost any endeavor.

What does that even mean? The admissions process for Duke Athletes is pretty well established and consistent beyond Men's BB. And the team makes a ton of money for the university, so there isn't any funding in a practical sense.

The Gordog
02-04-2016, 05:01 PM
This is a very odd statement. First of all, how do you define "readiness"? For example, do you count Derryck Thornton as "ready to contribute at Duke"? He's playing 25 mpg and producing stats very similar to Will Avery's in 1997-98. Second, how do you measure how "wrong" we were when dealing with recruits rated in the 20s and 30s like Matt Jones and Josh Hairston? Did anyone really expect either of those guys to contribute at a high level right off the bat? This would be even more pronounced with lower recruits like Tyler Thornton or Olek Czyz or Antonio Vrankovic or Miles and Marshall Plumlee. Third, if a guy doesn't play much, how can you tell if he's ready or not (think Grayson Allen, 2015)? Fourth, what's "now" and what's "used to"? Hard to make comparisons if you don't know the timeframe.

Finally, how are you calculating the rate? If you're talking about 2011 and earlier, here's a partial list of Duke recruits who weren't ready to set the world on fire right out of the gate:

Marty Nessley
George Burgin
Kenny Blakeney
Kevin Strickland
Billy King
Quin Snyder
John Smith
Phil Henderson
Alaa Abdelnaby
Joe Cook
Christian Ast
Joey Beard
Brian Davis
Thomas Hill
Marty Clark
Clay Buckley
Crawford Palmer
Erik Meek
Tony Moore
Greg Newton
Carmen Wallace
Nate James
Matt Christensen
Casey Sanders
Nick Horvath
Andre Sweet
Sean Dockery
Lee Melchionni
Michael Thompson
Eric Boateng
Jamal Boykin
Dave McClure
Marty Pocius
Brian Zoubek
Olek Czyz
Miles Plumlee
Ryan Kelly
Josh Hairston

That's more than one per season, probably a pretty similar rate to what we've experienced more recently.

Ultimately, it seems very possible your conclusion is based on a recency bias.

I was comparing the list of recruits from the Capel era to the 5 years immediately preceding. That was the context, not a comprehensive retrospective on K's recruiting. I think the eye test is sufficient to evaluate hits vs. misses.

Kedsy
02-04-2016, 05:44 PM
I was comparing the list of recruits from the Capel era to the 5 years immediately preceding. That was the context, not a comprehensive retrospective on K's recruiting. I think the eye test is sufficient to evaluate hits vs. misses.

Interesting, I couldn't find the part where you said five years. But, OK, let's compare, because I can't imagine an eye test that sees more misses from the recruiting classes of 2012 to 2015 than from the recruiting classes of 2007 to 2011.

First of all, I suppose it's possible you don't realize that Gbinije, Murphy, and Marshall Plumlee were in the recruiting class of 2011, before Coach Capel came on board. But even if you were counting the 2011 high school class on Capel's side and adding the 2006 high school class to the "used to" side, I don't think your position is supported.

Anyway, here's the full list of recruits during your time period (mpg includes DNP-CDs as 0 minutes):

Classes of 2007 through 2011:

PLAYED 20+ MPG AS FRESHMEN (3 - 17.6%)
-------------------------------------------
Kyle Singler, 28.6 mpg
Kyrie Irving, 27.5 mpg
Austin Rivers, 33.2 mpg

PLAYED BETWEEN 10 and 15 MPG AS FRESHMEN (5 - 29.4%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Nolan Smith, 14.7 mpg
Elliot Williams, 15.2 mpg
Mason Plumlee, 16.4 mpg
Andre Dawkins, 12.6 mpg
Quinn Cook, 11.4 mpg

PLAYED FEWER THAN 10 MPG AS FRESHMEN (9 - 52.9%)
------------------------------------------------------
Taylor King, 9.7 mpg
Olek Czyz, 1.4 mpg
Miles Plumlee, 4.5 mpg
Ryan Kelly, 5.7 mpg
Josh Hairston, 4.5 mpg
Tyler Thornton, 9.1 mpg
Mike Gbinije, 3.3 mpg
Alex Murphy, 5.4 mpg (redshirt freshman)
Marshall Plumlee, 1.4 mpg (redshirt freshman)


Classes of 2012 through 2016:

PLAYED 20+ MPG AS FRESHMEN (8 - 57.1%)
-------------------------------------------
Rasheed Sulaimon, 29.2 mpg
Jabari Parker, 30.7 mpg
Jahlil Okafor, 30.1 mpg
Tyus Jones, 33.9 mpg
Justise Winslow, 29.1 mpg
Derryck Thornton, 25.7 mpg (so far)
Luke Kennard, 24.6 mpg (so far)
Brandon Ingram, 31.6 mpg (so far)

PLAYED BETWEEN 10 and 15 MPG AS FRESHMAN (1 - 7.1%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Amile Jefferson, 11.3 mpg

PLAYED FEWER THAN 10 MPG AS FRESHMEN (5 - 35.7%)
------------------------------------------------------
Semi Ojeleye, 2.3 mpg
Matt Jones, 6.7 mpg
Grayson Allen, 8.3 mpg
Chase Jeter, 6.8 mpg
Antonio Vrankovic, 0.7 mpg

NOT COUNTED IN THE ABOVE
----------------------------
Harry Giles
Jayson Tatum
Frank Jackson
Javin Delaurier


So, how do you figure that we've been "wrong about the readiness of players to contribute at Duke at a higher rate" in the second period than in the first?

Furniture
02-04-2016, 11:37 PM
Where's the thread for Saturday's game....next play.

sagegrouse
02-05-2016, 08:33 AM
Look, nobody's going to be able to convince you otherwise. You seem destined to have your hopes raised for years and years before getting your heart ripped out in the end when Stevens just plain isn't interested.

The Boston Celtics are a better job than Duke.

You say Duke should "lay the groundwork for an all-out blitz" of Stevens when Coach K retires. Tell me what your pitch would be.

Is it: "Hey, Mr. Brainiac Brad Stevens. Please leave the most hallowed franchise in the NBA to return to the college game where strategy isn't nearly as intellectually stimulating, you don't get to compete against the best minds in basketball, and you can't just focus only on basketball alongside other grown men professionals, but rather you have to bust your butt on the recruiting trail traveling to high school gyms to kiss up to teenagers"?
I dunno, guys. The problem in the NBA is that players, after a very few seasons, begin to tune you out. Therefore, there is way more turnover among coaches in the NBA than in college. It happened to Pat Riley. The exception, aside from Auerbach, is the Buddhist master, Phil Jackson. Therefore, even great coaches tend to shuffle around. It doesn't happen in college because the players are younger and only there for 1-4 years. But, but... You have to recruit, not just draft. But unlike the NBA, if you are at the top of the profession, you can stay forever.

kAzE
02-05-2016, 09:58 AM
I dunno, guys. The problem in the NBA is that players, after a very few seasons, begin to tune you out. Therefore, there is way more turnover among coaches in the NBA than in college. It happened to Pat Riley. The exception, aside from Auerbach, is the Buddhist master, Phil Jackson. Therefore, even great coaches tend to shuffle around. It doesn't happen in college because the players are younger and only there for 1-4 years. But, but... You have to recruit, not just draft. But unlike the NBA, if you are at the top of the profession, you can stay forever.

Gregg Popovich? He's been coaching the Spurs for 19 straight seasons . . .

FerryFor50
02-05-2016, 10:25 AM
Interesting, I couldn't find the part where you said five years. But, OK, let's compare, because I can't imagine an eye test that sees more misses from the recruiting classes of 2012 to 2015 than from the recruiting classes of 2007 to 2011.

First of all, I suppose it's possible you don't realize that Gbinije, Murphy, and Marshall Plumlee were in the recruiting class of 2011, before Coach Capel came on board. But even if you were counting the 2011 high school class on Capel's side and adding the 2006 high school class to the "used to" side, I don't think your position is supported.

Anyway, here's the full list of recruits during your time period (mpg includes DNP-CDs as 0 minutes):

Classes of 2007 through 2011:

PLAYED 20+ MPG AS FRESHMEN (3 - 17.6%)
-------------------------------------------
Kyle Singler, 28.6 mpg
Kyrie Irving, 27.5 mpg
Austin Rivers, 33.2 mpg

PLAYED BETWEEN 10 and 15 MPG AS FRESHMEN (5 - 29.4%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Nolan Smith, 14.7 mpg
Elliot Williams, 15.2 mpg
Mason Plumlee, 16.4 mpg
Andre Dawkins, 12.6 mpg
Quinn Cook, 11.4 mpg

PLAYED FEWER THAN 10 MPG AS FRESHMEN (9 - 52.9%)
------------------------------------------------------
Taylor King, 9.7 mpg
Olek Czyz, 1.4 mpg
Miles Plumlee, 4.5 mpg
Ryan Kelly, 5.7 mpg
Josh Hairston, 4.5 mpg
Tyler Thornton, 9.1 mpg
Mike Gbinije, 3.3 mpg
Alex Murphy, 5.4 mpg (redshirt freshman)
Marshall Plumlee, 1.4 mpg (redshirt freshman)


Classes of 2012 through 2016:

PLAYED 20+ MPG AS FRESHMEN (8 - 57.1%)
-------------------------------------------
Rasheed Sulaimon, 29.2 mpg
Jabari Parker, 30.7 mpg
Jahlil Okafor, 30.1 mpg
Tyus Jones, 33.9 mpg
Justise Winslow, 29.1 mpg
Derryck Thornton, 25.7 mpg (so far)
Luke Kennard, 24.6 mpg (so far)
Brandon Ingram, 31.6 mpg (so far)

PLAYED BETWEEN 10 and 15 MPG AS FRESHMAN (1 - 7.1%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Amile Jefferson, 11.3 mpg

PLAYED FEWER THAN 10 MPG AS FRESHMEN (5 - 35.7%)
------------------------------------------------------
Semi Ojeleye, 2.3 mpg
Matt Jones, 6.7 mpg
Grayson Allen, 8.3 mpg
Chase Jeter, 6.8 mpg
Antonio Vrankovic, 0.7 mpg

NOT COUNTED IN THE ABOVE
----------------------------
Harry Giles
Jayson Tatum
Frank Jackson
Javin Delaurier


So, how do you figure that we've been "wrong about the readiness of players to contribute at Duke at a higher rate" in the second period than in the first?

Don't you understand? YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE ALMIGHTY EYETEST! :-P

Troublemaker
02-05-2016, 11:26 AM
I dunno, guys. The problem in the NBA is that players, after a very few seasons, begin to tune you out. Therefore, there is way more turnover among coaches in the NBA than in college. It happened to Pat Riley. The exception, aside from Auerbach, is the Buddhist master, Phil Jackson. Therefore, even great coaches tend to shuffle around. It doesn't happen in college because the players are younger and only there for 1-4 years. But, but... You have to recruit, not just draft. But unlike the NBA, if you are at the top of the profession, you can stay forever.

Stevens has the even-keel, player-friendly, but still authoritative enough to be respected personality that's en vogue for coaches, though. Pat Riley was intense and overly dramatic for 82 games and killed his players in practice, a style that couldn't even get hired anymore in the health-conscious modern NBA. I doubt job security is a sellable point to Stevens, especially considering the historical tenures of coaches who follow legends on the college level.

kAzE
02-05-2016, 11:49 AM
Stevens has the even-keel, player-friendly, but still authoritative enough to be respected personality that's en vogue for coaches, though. Pat Riley was intense and overly dramatic for 82 games and killed his players in practice, a style that couldn't even get hired anymore in the health-conscious modern NBA. I doubt job security is a sellable point to Stevens, especially considering the historical tenures of coaches who follow legends on the college level.

Great points all around. Stevens is definitely a desirable coach for most players in the league right now. In fact, his players (Jae Crowder and Marcus Smart) this year have even called him out for playing TOO many players in the rotation, which is usually the opposite of what most coaches do. He's also consistently proven the ability to get the absolute best out of players who would otherwise be overlooked. He is very Popovich-esque in that regard. The Celtics are one of the best teams in the east despite not having a single star on the roster. When the Celtics finally use their mountain of assets to get a star (and subsequently another very good player or star through free agency), they will be a force to reckoned with. They have positioned themselves very well for the impending salary cap increase/spending explosion. I'm almost rooting for them to get Ben Simmons (from Brooklyn's pick) so they can make all these tanking teams look stupid. I wouldn't mind them getting Brandon, either. Stevens would be a wonderful coach for a lottery pick to learn from. I wish Jahlil had been so fortunate.

Jeffrey
02-05-2016, 11:52 AM
The Celtics are one of the best teams in the east despite not having a single star on the roster. He is very Popovich-esque in that regard.

I thought Pop has always had at least one star?

kAzE
02-05-2016, 11:55 AM
I thought Pop has always had at least one star?

I was referring more to the "getting the best out of every player" part. (I reorganized my post to clear that up) The obvious example would be Danny Green, but there are many others. I don't think Kawhi Leonard becomes the star that he now is on any other team. They have done a fantastic job with his development. I wish the Celtics could have gotten Justise (they REALLY wanted to trade up as high as #5 to draft him) . . . he would have been perfect on that team.

Jeffrey
02-05-2016, 12:00 PM
I was referring more to the "getting the best out of every player" part.

That's the only comparison I would attempt to make, since Duncan is the best 4 in NBA history and Pop has had him all but his first season.

kAzE
02-05-2016, 12:02 PM
That's the only comparison I would attempt to make, since Duncan is the best 4 in NBA history and Pop has had him all but his first season.

Nope, he had him his first season. That was Pop's 2nd season, and 1st full season as head Coach. They've been joined at the hip for Duncan's entire professional career. But going back to what I was saying . . . the Celtics got Jae Crowder, basically a throw-in in the Rondo trade, and Stevens has turned him into a borderline All-Star and defensive ace. (I think he's the most valuable player on the roster) Isaiah Thomas, shunned by every team he's been on, is now an All-Star playing for Stevens. Pretty good player development credentials if you ask me.

CDu
02-05-2016, 12:03 PM
Stevens has the even-keel, player-friendly, but still authoritative enough to be respected personality that's en vogue for coaches, though. Pat Riley was intense and overly dramatic for 82 games and killed his players in practice, a style that couldn't even get hired anymore in the health-conscious modern NBA. I doubt job security is a sellable point to Stevens, especially considering the historical tenures of coaches who follow legends on the college level.

Stevens also has had the advantage of coaching a team completely devoid of players jaded in the star system. Contrast him with a guy like Hoiberg, who has a similar personality but is coaching a veteran team and has not yet won them over. Stevens came in with a group that had no preconceived notions of how they were supposed to be treated. No proven stars (still), nobody used to getting their way with coaches. He has guided them to success because they had no choice but to buy in or be shipped out. And now that he's been somewhat successful, he has that control.

If Stevens tried to mandate things with, say, the current Cavs' roster, he'd probably not still be coaching in the NBA right now.

Jeffrey
02-05-2016, 12:05 PM
Nope, he had him his first season. That was Pop's 2nd season, and 1st full season as head Coach. They've been joined at the hip for Duncan's entire professional career.

Geez, I think you know what I was saying..... Pop has had Duncan all but Pop's first season.

kAzE
02-05-2016, 12:07 PM
Stevens also has had the advantage of coaching a team completely devoid of players jaded in the star system. Contrast him with a guy like Hoiberg, who has a similar personality but is coaching a veteran team and has not yet won them over. Stevens came in with a group that had no preconceived notions of how they were supposed to be treated. No proven stars (still), nobody used to getting their way with coaches. He has guided them to success because they had no choice but to buy in or be shipped out. And now that he's been somewhat successful, he has that control.

If Stevens tried to mandate things with, say, the current Cavs' roster, he'd probably not still be coaching in the NBA right now.

I think Stevens could have made it work. David Blatt, who is a good coach, was not exactly the most tactful guy in the world. He tried to come in and act like he'd been coaching in the NBA for 20 years. Just listen to Zach Lowe's podcast about Blatt's firing with Brian Windhorst. He made no friends in that organization, and never had a good relationship with LeBron. Stevens is a genius, he would have gotten LeBron's respect somehow.


Geez, I think you know what I was saying.... Pop has had Duncan all but Pop's first season.

Yeah, sorry about that . . . reading too fast :p

Jeffrey
02-05-2016, 12:49 PM
Yeah, sorry about that . . . reading too fast :p

No worries, I should have stated it better. I'm also multi-tasking.... trading equity and fixed income today.

grad_devil
02-05-2016, 05:27 PM
Per Laura Keeley (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/695732183563169792)


Grayson Allen said he was frustrated with fouling out & Duke's end of game issues when he yelled at Thornton. They patched it up next day

sagegrouse
02-05-2016, 09:59 PM
Gregg Popovich? He's been coaching the Spurs for 19 straight seasons . . .

I should have mentioned Pop. But job security in the NBA is likely less than at a top fiour college program. Who has failed? Well, D'oh! Then Gillispie and Tubby at Kentucky. No one at Duke or Kansas. Oh, well! Something to think about.