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CDu
01-25-2016, 08:08 PM
Post here, with control and civility.

Channing
01-25-2016, 08:12 PM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

rsvman
01-25-2016, 08:13 PM
disappointing.

I thought it was pretty classless of them to go for the slam in the final second after the steal. the outcome was never in doubt.

gocanes0506
01-25-2016, 08:13 PM
Hard to dispute. Just seems inexplicable.

The team doesn't play strong enough team D to play a zone. Not enough communication, coupled with lack of zone gap responsibility practice causes bad D. What I mean: if you watch Duke's zone, in the gaps between the man up top and the man at the wing you'll see two people flying to ball. Which sounds good but it leaves a person and gap open. The wing should call whose man it is. Call yours if there is a man deep or mine if there isn't a man deep. Amile will fix some of the communication issues.

Also, guys on the wings have their heads watching the ball. The best D is watching ball and man. Too many times the wings get bunrt for a lob or a back door cut because they are ball watching instead of guarding the man too. That is a struggle for a lot of young players these days.

Zones take a lot of practice to work well. It is a lot of communication that even veteran teams struggle with. It will get better as it is practiced more.

lotusland
01-25-2016, 08:14 PM
I like this team so I hope they find the depth, experience, toughness, shooting, defense or whatever it is that they need to be a factor in March. It'd hard to watch them play so hard and come up short.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:14 PM
Game result was disappointing, but not unexpected. Miami is a good team. They were playing at home and were higher ranked. They are a veteran team against a thin, young Duke team. And they shot way over their heads from 3 in the first half (50%!) and then got Duke out of their zone with some lob plays and putting Newton in the middle to hit shots.

Duke didn't shoot well and Plumlee was neutralized by Jekiri.

If Duke can beat GT and NCSU this week and go 2-1, they could stay in the top 25 (provided other teams lose around the 20-30 range). I'd take a 2-1 record this week for sure.

I will say this - they freedom of motion rules seem to change game to game. Half to half, even. They need to start getting called more consistently.

Furniture
01-25-2016, 08:15 PM
We didn't score enough in the first half.
That's my conclusion.

CameronDuke
01-25-2016, 08:15 PM
Miami went 6-12 from 3 in the first half including some absolute bombs from deep. Thought Duke could never overcome that, I'm not sure if they ever got the lead back after that. Credit Duke, they fought back in the second half and got it from 14 down to a deficit of 5 (thanks to Miami going 1-8 from 3 in the second half) but Duke looked gassed when they cut it to 5. It took a lot of effort to trim into the lead 9 points.

Ingram is a stud. He is the absolute total package. Miami got a lot of second chance opportunities off missed 3s. Duke's zone really looked good at times and forced Miami into deep 3s. It also gave up a lot of alley oop dunks. The guys are fighting. We are still an NCAA Tournament team to me.

Grayson got mugged a few times driving to the rim and looked to draw contact but no call.

Can Amile still redshirt? If he isn't back by the ACC tourney, what's the good in bringing him back for maybe a short stay in the ACC Tournament and NCAA Tournament?

I will remember the two breakaway dunks at the end of the game by Miami when the game was already decided as well as McCllelan pushing Luke in the back from the blind side trying to start a scuffle with him. I hope Duke remembers that too.

gus
01-25-2016, 08:15 PM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

Are you serious!? step off the ledge. April wasn't that long ago.

eta - oh "non McDonald AA". I missed the important distinction. But still, come on.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:15 PM
disappointing.

I thought it was pretty classless of them to go for the slam in the final second after the steal. the outcome was never in doubt.

The U has zero class. This has been the issue since they entered the ACC.

freshmanjs
01-25-2016, 08:16 PM
If Duke can beat GT and NCSU this week and go 2-1, they could stay in the top 25 (provided other teams lose around the 20-30 range). I'd take a 2-1 record this week for sure.



Those games are not this week. We don't play 3 games this week. Only 1.

CatDevil
01-25-2016, 08:16 PM
Win or Lose, Good or Bad I love my Duke Blue Devils.

For me, this one really hurt. I do not like Miami or their players. Does anyone else think McClellen should have received a Technical towards the end of the game for the thuggish in your face attitude with the refs?? It seemed physical with two of the refs, but maybe my dark blue glasses are working OT.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:17 PM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

Oh you mean like Brandon Ingram or Luke Jennard, who occasionally contribute as freshman?

Even DT had some good moments this game.

The only freshman that's been a disappointment has been Jeter.

scottdude8
01-25-2016, 08:17 PM
5 extra minutes of Obi/Jeter in the first half HAS to be worth some extra energy for our guards down the stretch. We can't sustain a run in the second half when the team is exhausted. And those two guys aren't going to singlehandedly sink the team in 5 minutes. Right?

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:18 PM
Those games are not this week. We don't play 3 games this week. Only 1.

Oh, then never mind me. We're out of the top 25 for sure. :)

Furniture
01-25-2016, 08:18 PM
Are you serious!? step off the ledge. April wasn't that long ago.

eta - oh "non McDonald AA". I missed the important distinction. But still, come on.

I don't think he is serious!

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 08:18 PM
Back door after back door after back door after back door

These guys should have nightmares about Sheldon McClellan.

Too bad we had no one that could match up with him. Basically all Miami guards feasted on us.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:19 PM
Game result was disappointing, but not unexpected. Miami is a good team. They were playing at home and were higher ranked. They are a veteran team against a thin, young Duke team. And they shot way over their heads from 3 in the first half (50%!) and then got Duke out of their zone with some lob plays and putting Newton in the middle to hit shots.

Duke didn't shoot well and Plumlee was neutralized by Jekiri.

If Duke can beat GT and NCSU this week and go 2-1, they could stay in the top 25 (provided other teams lose around the 20-30 range). I'd take a 2-1 record this week for sure.

I will say this - they freedom of motion rules seem to change game to game. Half to half, even. They need to start getting called more consistently.

As noted elsewhere, we don't have any more games this week. We are dropping out of the Top-25 barring the apocalypse. Those two games you mentioned are next week, AFTER the next poll.

As for the game, we did a good job of withstanding their hot shooting in the first half (down 4 I believe). We failed to score well to start the second half (10 points in 10 minutes) and fell further behind despite Miami going frigid from 3 in the second half. Once we started scoring, we stopped defending.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:19 PM
Win or Lose, Good or Bad I love my Duke Blue Devils.

For me, this one really hurt. I do not like Miami or their players. Does anyone else think McClellen should have received a Technical towards the end of the game for the thuggish in your face attitude with the refs?? It seemed physical with two of the refs, but maybe my dark blue glasses are working OT.

I felt there were SEVERAL moments where McClellan could have gotten T'd up. Demonstrably protesting calls, taunting opposing players, then the scrum at the end where he was obviously out of control.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:20 PM
Oh you mean like Brandon Ingram or Luke Jennard, who occasionally contribute as freshman?

Even DT had some good moments this game.

The only freshman that's been a disappointment has been Jeter.

Kennard and Ingram were McD's guys. The post you referenced specified non-McD's freshmen. Those guys rarely ever appear for us.

ChillinDuke
01-25-2016, 08:21 PM
The zone was weak and had obvious holes. The Canes exposed those holes.

The team (and game in general) felt listless and lacking energy.

The offense reverted to a relatively simplistic drive into traffic and/or chuck threes.

Makes you wonder if, despite what K and others claim about being young and not tiring, that this team does get tired playing 2 road games in 3 days.

We need Amile. But if he doesn't return soon, we appear to be in real jeopardy of missing the Tournament. Georgia Tech is essentially now a must-win given the remaining schedule. Although, to be fair, it might always have been that ever since Amile got injured.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:21 PM
1) First and foremost, congrats to Miami. Coach L clearly knew how to attack that zone in the first half and just punish the man-2-man in the second half. Angel Rodriguez is a fantastic player. He reminds me of a more experience, less talented Tyus Jones: excellent distributor, protector of the ball, can score if you don't guard him well. I actually really like this Miami team.

2) Ingram and Allen are arguably a top 3 duo in the country, but you can't expect them to crush it every game. This was clearly one of those games. To compensate, we need additional offense. Sometimes it comes, sometimes it doesn't. Today, it didn't really come. But, let's face it; with his team, offense isn't one of the top 10 problems.

3) Is our defense this year worse than 2013-14? If so, oh boy. It's not going to be a fun March. Also, I don't really get why our D is so bad. Our individuals have some good-to-really good D: Derryck, Ingram, Jones, MP3 has decent positioning and is super strong... I think the sum-of-the-parts is better defensively than the unit as a whole, which is not good.

4) I really like Derryck's potential. He is lightning quick, has a decent 3pt shot (especially when feet are set), and loves to play defense. But a) his feet are so fast that I think he losses balance a lot, b) his feet are clearly faster than his hands right now, and c) he doesn't change speed. Tyus Jones isn't fast, but he was a master at changing pace. Also, Derryck has some very questionable shot selection.

5) Can someone please breakdown Jeter's value? I'm not talking about this year, I mean in general. And this is a serious question. I understand this class isn't deep, but how can the RSCI #14 ranked player show no potential on either the offensive or defensive end? On defense, he is completely lost. On offense, he neither has the strength to overcome his opponents, the footwork to get around them, nor a jump shot. I've heard he has this incredible jump hook, but we haven't seen that. Duke has had so many freshman who don't contribute much as freshman, but they have shown flashes. I haven't seen any flash with Jeter.

weezie
01-25-2016, 08:21 PM
Well, so it's our turn to face rough water. Losing stinks but I'm not a teenager with that weight on my shoulders. Feel for them and still love them.
Hang in Devils.

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 08:23 PM
Guys...who cares about techs on McClellan? He torched us and it's their home floor. I'm more worried about our defense than a tech that wasn't called.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:24 PM
1) First and foremost, congrats to Miami. Coach L clearly knew how to attack that zone in the first half and just punish the man-2-man in the second half. Angel Rodriguez is a fantastic player. He reminds me of a more experience, less talented Tyus Jones: excellent distributor, protector of the ball, can score if you don't guard him well. I actually really like this Miami team.

2) Ingram and Allen are arguably a top 3 duo in the country, but you can't expect them to crush it every game. This was clearly one of those games. To compensate, we need additional offense. Sometimes it comes, sometimes it doesn't. Today, it didn't really come. But, let's face it; with his team, offense isn't one of the top 10 problems.

3) Is our defense this year worse than 2013-14? If so, oh boy. It's not going to be a fun March. Also, I don't really get why our D is so bad. Our individuals have some good-to-really good D: Derryck, Ingram, Jones, MP3 has decent positioning and is super strong... I think the sum-of-the-parts is better defensively than the unit as a whole, which is not good.

4) I really like Derryck's potential. He is lightning quick, has a decent 3pt shot (especially when feet are set), and loves to play defense. But a) his feet are so fast that I think he losses balance a lot, b) his feet are clearly faster than his hands right now, and c) he doesn't change speed. Tyus Jones isn't fast, but he was a master at changing pace. Also, Derryck has some very questionable shot selection.

5) Can someone please breakdown Jeter's value? I'm not talking about this year, I mean in general. And this is a serious question. I understand this class isn't deep, but how can the RSCI #14 ranked player show no potential on either the offensive or defensive end? On defense, he is completely lost. On offense, he neither has the strength to overcome his opponents, the footwork to get around them, nor a jump shot. I've heard he has this incredible jump hook, but we haven't seen that. Duke has had so many freshman who don't contribute much as freshman, but they have shown flashes. I haven't seen any flash with Jeter.

Regarding Jeter: Ryan Kelly was ranked #14 in his class (and in a better class than Jeter's) and he was similarly not ready to play inside as a frosh.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:26 PM
5) Can someone please breakdown Jeter's value? I'm not talking about this year, I mean in general. And this is a serious question. I understand this class isn't deep, but how can the RSCI #14 ranked player show no potential on either the offensive or defensive end? On defense, he is completely lost. On offense, he neither has the strength to overcome his opponents, the footwork to get around them, nor a jump shot. I've heard he has this incredible jump hook, but we haven't seen that. Duke has had so many freshman who don't contribute much as freshman, but they have shown flashes. I haven't seen any flash with Jeter.

Jeter, I think, is an energy guy. I think he's going to be a 4 year in the Lance Thomas mold. Hopefully he develops some semblance of offense at some point - Remember, LT didn't develop his jumper until his junior/senior years. Before that, he was just as frenetic as Jeter.

Jeter has shown flashes of potential (albeit rare) on defense as a rim protector and rebounder. He just needs more seasoning. I think he might not do much until his junior year, though.

DUKIE V(A)
01-25-2016, 08:27 PM
The U has zero class. This has been the issue since they entered the ACC.

Totally agree on the classlessness of the Canes as noted by the posters above. It's a shame, because they are well coached and play good basketball. I remember Rodriguez's boastful remarks after last year's Duke game. Totally unnecessary. Glad that team ended up in the NIT.

24 assists for them; just 8 for us. They had better ball movement and played better defense tonight.

This next 8 days are going to be hard for us fans but great for the team to make some adjustments and get better. Looking forward to seeing the continued development of the team.

MCFinARL
01-25-2016, 08:28 PM
Duke didn't shoot well and Plumlee was neutralized by Jekiri.

If Duke can beat GT and NCSU this week and go 2-1, they could stay in the top 25 (provided other teams lose around the 20-30 range). I'd take a 2-1 record this week for sure.



Completely agree about Plumlee--recently he has provided a lot of putback and inside points that were totally missing tonight. Never thought I would say that good defense on MP3 was the key to a win over Duke but tonight it was a major factor.

Re this week, we don't have another game before the polls come out--GT is next Tuesday. The week off is great in terms of giving Amile more time but unless there are a lot of losses by other teams I think we can kiss the ranked streak goodbye.


We didn't score enough in the first half.
That's my conclusion.

Definitely true, and we didn't score enough in the second half either. Not scoring enough is the single most important factor in every loss...

CatDevil
01-25-2016, 08:29 PM
Well, so it's our turn to face rough water. Losing stinks but I'm not a teenager with that weight on my shoulders. Feel for them and still love them.
Hang in Devils.

Wise words indeed. I shared this with my 13 year old son, and saw the light bulb go off.
Losing sure stinks... lucky for Duke fans this season so far is uncommon.

ChillinDuke
01-25-2016, 08:29 PM
Regarding Jeter: Ryan Kelly was ranked #14 in his class (and in a better class than Jeter's) and he was similarly not ready to play inside as a frosh.

CDu, to be fair, the issue is not Chase's non-readiness. If the kid isnt ready I'm certainly not going to find fault in that. The issue is what exactly K sees in him to put him into games.

And saying "he's Coach K" isn't a thoughtful response. The sequence when Jeter was in the game today appeared a game-impacting sequence. And not in a positive way.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:30 PM
Regarding Jeter: Ryan Kelly was ranked #14 in his class (and in a better class than Jeter's) and he was similarly not ready to play inside as a frosh.

That is a good point. And Kelly turned out to be a very valuable player. But Kelly's freshman year was also a year where Coach K didn't need to play non-ready players because our top 7 players included 5 bigmen (LT, Zoobs, MP1, MP2, Singler. And I count Singler as a bigman. He was a college four playing the 3). D Thornton clearly isn't ready this year, but he's shown plenty of flashes already. I just don't see any of that in Jeter.

dukelifer
01-25-2016, 08:30 PM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

Perhaps because they mostly recruit McDonald AAs.I seem to remember Duke winning a National Championship last year. Historically, Duke has found a way to overcome their non contributing, non McDonald AAs.

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 08:30 PM
Perhaps Jeter is just scared s&*@less out there with absolutely no confidence? I'm not convinced he could be as bad as what we've seen. With the blocked dunk and missed assignments on D, he just looks lost out there.

jv001
01-25-2016, 08:31 PM
Kennard and Ingram were McD's guys. The post you referenced specified non-McD's freshmen. Those guys rarely ever appear for us.

I've had this discussion with several of my Duke buddies. Still waiting for the answer. Could it be academics keeping Duke from getting the non-McDonald players that can contribute. Especially on defense. GoDuke!

Saratoga2
01-25-2016, 08:31 PM
Tough loss for us as we played a 2/3 zone for much of the game and it was soft (not challenging 3 point shots) and also our shot blocker didn't pick up a foul until 30 minutes into the game, which also indicates we weren't contesting shots inside. Miami shot well from 3 and had a bunch of back door plays. Miami is well coached and they feasted on our defensive short comings.

On the offensive side, Miami played an aggressive MTM and our guys,with the exception of Brandon, had trouble with it. Brandon is such a great talent that I haven't seen anyone match up with him MTM. In my view, we have 3 key offensive players, Brandon, Grayson and Luke. Offensively, they have to all stay involved and try to keep the ball moving between them. I thought Luke didn't stay involved as the ball often didn't get into his hands. Maybe the other guys didn't involve him or maybe he didn't demand the ball. In any case, his touches were limited. Sometimes, Grayson seemed to force it too much in an effort to score or draw a foul, leading to TO's.

What I saw is that Miami is just a better and more flexible team that had excellent athleticism and size. They were able to keep the aggressive MTM on us the entire game and were able to expose our defensive deficiencies. Having Amile would have helped, but even his addition might not have been enough. The players certainly tried hard and didn't quit so that makes me like effort but not competency.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:32 PM
CDu, to be fair, the issue is not Chase's non-readiness. If the kid isnt ready I'm certainly not going to find fault in that. The issue is what exactly K sees in him to put him into games.

And saying "he's Coach K" isn't a thoughtful response. The sequence when Jeter was in the game today appeared a game-impacting sequence. And not in a positive way.

- Chillin

Who else is he putting in there?

Obi hasn't been much better. And I don't think Miami was a good matchup for someone slow looking as Obi.

Vrank? Maybe. But who knows the story on him. Robinson is a redshirt, so you're left with the walk ons.

Jeter and Obi are literally the only options we have at the 5 besides Plumlee at this point.

Channing
01-25-2016, 08:33 PM
Oh you mean like Brandon Ingram or Luke Jennard, who occasionally contribute as freshman?

Even DT had some good moments this game.

The only freshman that's been a disappointment has been Jeter.

Pretty sure Luke and BI were both McDonald AA. I specifically stated non McD AA which goes to player development rather than kids who come in with a big time rep. One or two of those guys on the roster and we aren't in the dire straits we currently face.

i don't think it's a ridiculous statement ... Aside from Seth Curry, who we didn't recruit out of high school, who is the last non McD AA to be a real contributor? Dawkins and DT would have both been AA if they didn't reclassify.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:34 PM
Pretty sure Luke and BI were both McDonald AA. I specifically stated non McD AA which goes to player development rather than kids who come in with a big time rep. One or two of those guys on the roster and we aren't in the dire straits we currently face.

i don't think it's a ridiculous statement ... Aside from Seth Curry, who we didn't recruit out of high school, who is the last non McD AA to be a real contributor? Dawkins and DT would have both been AA if they didn't reclassify.

Yea, I missed the "non" part.

Recruiting non-McD guys that can contribute is far from an exact science. Probably more of a toss up than trying to determine of the McD AAs can contribute.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:34 PM
CDu, to be fair, the issue is not Chase's non-readiness. If the kid isnt ready I'm certainly not going to find fault in that. The issue is what exactly K sees in him to put him into games.

And saying "he's Coach K" isn't a thoughtful response. The sequence when Jeter was in the game today appeared a game-impacting sequence. And not in a positive way.

- Chillin


Who else is he putting in there?

Obi hasn't been much better. And I don't think Miami was a good matchup for someone slow looking as Obi.

Vrank? Maybe. But who knows the story on him. Robinson is a redshirt, so you're left with the walk ons.

Jeter and Obi are literally the only options we have at the 5 besides Plumlee at this point.

Exactly, Ferry. We can't play Plumlee and Ingram both for 40 minutes. Somebody has to play in the frontcourt. The options are Jeter and Obi. Neither is very appealing.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-25-2016, 08:35 PM
That was my first look at Miami and they have some depth and a complete, balanced team. Strong defensively, inside and on the ball.
Offensively they showed even more balance attacking off the dribble, spot up shooting, transition, posting up...and they played with teamwork,(24 assists) and composure. They also protected the ball with only 7 TO's.

This is a dangerous team for anybody in the country.

I thought Duke was weak defensively tonight. Without any depth, they just couldn't challenge like you know they want to. Too many easy dribble drives given up.

Offensively, Duke only had 8 assists. The offense seemed to consist of Allen and Ingram trying to breakdown the D on their own off the dribble and forced shooting from deep and crash the boards. Not much patience out there tonight.

Duke is playing tough. Nobody can question their effort.

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:35 PM
Jeter, I think, is an energy guy. I think he's going to be a 4 year in the Lance Thomas mold. Hopefully he develops some semblance of offense at some point - Remember, LT didn't develop his jumper until his junior/senior years. Before that, he was just as frenetic as Jeter.

Jeter has shown flashes of potential (albeit rare) on defense as a rim protector and rebounder. He just needs more seasoning. I think he might not do much until his junior year, though.

#14 is a helluva ranking for an energy guy!

As far as flashes, I think the Georgetown game is the last time that Jeter showed flashes. After that, I can't recall any.

I'm shocked with the output (or lack thereof) from Jeter. I really expected him to compete with MP3 for the starting position. I couldn't have been more wrong.

freshmanjs
01-25-2016, 08:36 PM
I've had this discussion with several of my Duke buddies. Still waiting for the answer. Could it be academics keeping Duke from getting the non-McDonald players that can contribute. Especially on defense. GoDuke!

I don't get the criticism. Are you saying we should start recruiting non-McD players instead of our consistent rosters loaded with McD players? How have those other programs been doing over the last 35 years?

Every major program except Kansas has had bad seasons in the last decade. Kentucky, UNC, UCONN missed the tournament. Mich. St. was a 10 seed. Indiana and UCLA have had bad teams. We shouldn't be shocked that this is happening, but rather shocked that it happens so rarely for us. (Also, I think the team will rebound and end up being remembered for a good season).

6th Man
01-25-2016, 08:37 PM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

I was actually thinking the same thing. We seem to get either absolute studs (Mickey D's) or guys that can't contribute at all. It would be nice to get some athletic non Mickey D's that can ball. Solid 4 year guys that are excellent role players. I think those guys may shy away from Duke due to the tight rotation, but it would have been great to have this season.

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:38 PM
That was my first look at Miami and they have some depth and a complete, balanced team. Strong defensively, inside and on the ball.
Offensively they showed even more balance attacking off the dribble, spot up shooting, transition, posting up...and they played with teamwork,(24 assists) and composure. They also protected the ball with only 7 TO's.

This is a dangerous team for anybody in the country.

I thought Duke was weak defensively tonight. Without any depth, they just couldn't challenge like you know they want to. Too many easy dribble drives given up.

Offensively, Duke only had 8 assists. The offense seemed to consist of Allen and Ingram trying to breakdown the D on their own off the dribble and forced shooting from deep and crash the boards. Not much patience out there tonight.

Duke is playing tough. Nobody can question their effort.

Without Amile, Duke is weak defensively every night.

Channing
01-25-2016, 08:38 PM
When our offense was really clicking earlier in the year it looked a lot like what I think Calipari wants the dribble drive offense to look like. I know that it is much harder to get there when the bumps aren't getting called. Grayson, Luke and BI driving and kicking and driving and kicking is beautiful and leads to open rhythm shots. I hope we get back there

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:39 PM
#14 is a helluva ranking for an energy guy!

As far as flashes, I think the Georgetown game is the last time that Jeter showed flashes. After that, I can't recall any.

I'm shocked with the output (or lack thereof) from Jeter. I really expected him to compete with MP3 for the starting position. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I've mentioned in other threads that Jeter's game reminds me a bit of Joakim Noah's, which I'd take in a heartbeat.

But obviously a deer in the headlights right now.

He did have moments earlier in the season, such as against Georgetown.

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ID=4728298

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:40 PM
I don't get the criticism. Are you saying we should start recruiting non-McD players instead of our consistent rosters loaded with McD players? How have those other programs been doing over the last 35 years?

Every major program except Kansas has had bad seasons in the last decade. Kentucky, UNC, UCONN missed the tournament. Mich. St. was a 10 seed. Indiana and UCLA have had bad teams. We shouldn't be shocked that this is happening, but rather shocked that it happens so rarely for us. (Also, I think the team will rebound and end up being remembered for a good season).

Totally agree.

Why mess with what's worked a very high % of the time?

There's no secret formula to finding those diamonds in the rough that turn into top flight college players. That's why they're called diamonds in the rough.

Troublemaker
01-25-2016, 08:41 PM
Credit to Miami for playing an excellent game. In the strength-on-strength battle, their defense defeated our offense, as Miami was able to both defend the drive well AND close out on the threes well. It's probably true that most officiating crews will call things tighter, which would've given our offense a better chance, BUT every now and then you will run into an officiating crew that doesn't give you those calls. (With the freedom of movement emphasis, they will just appear less frequently.)

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:41 PM
#14 is a helluva ranking for an energy guy!

As far as flashes, I think the Georgetown game is the last time that Jeter showed flashes. After that, I can't recall any.

I'm shocked with the output (or lack thereof) from Jeter. I really expected him to compete with MP3 for the starting position. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I think if Kelly had played more, you would have seen the same from him. Jeter went from being the biggest and strong enough to being just another guy and not nearly strong enough. And when your game isn't a high-skill game as a post guy, being weak physically is a problem. And now I think his confidence is shot.

He also was probably overrated. This was a week class in terms of bigs; he might be the third or fourth best big in his class. Because of that, he probably got bumped up a bit whereas guards get bumped down due to depth. If he were rated in the 30s like he would have been in Kelly/Plumlee's class, nobody would bat an eye about his struggles.

jv001
01-25-2016, 08:42 PM
I don't get the criticism. Are you saying we should start recruiting non-McD players instead of our consistent rosters loaded with McD players? How have those other programs been doing over the last 35 years?

Every major program except Kansas has had bad seasons in the last decade. Kentucky, UNC, UCONN missed the tournament. Mich. St. was a 10 seed. Indiana and UCLA have had bad teams. We shouldn't be shocked that this is happening, but rather shocked that it happens so rarely for us. (Also, I think the team will rebound and end up being remembered for a good season).

Not criticism, just a question. We seem to get plenty of McDonald AA and we get players that are a step below role players. What about the young men that fall in the middle of the pack? Those players have a value and surely would help this season. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:43 PM
I've mentioned in other threads that Jeter's game reminds me a bit of Joakim Noah's, which I'd take in a heartbeat.

But obviously a deer in the headlights right now.

He did have moments earlier in the season, such as against Georgetown.

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ID=4728298

I don't see Noah at all :( I'm also not so sure on the energy guy label. Energy guys are often really solid at rebounding (especially offensive rebounds) and often have defense that is way ahead of their offense. I don't think any of those really apply to Jeter.

Yeah, Georgetown was the biggest Jeter-tease. But he regressed after that game.

CameronDuke
01-25-2016, 08:43 PM
I'd put Jeter as well as Obi in the same boat when asking what do they bring to the Duke squad? Both seem like great team players (attitude wise) but their basketball skills have not been on full display yet at Duke. Obi rarely plays and when he does, he looks like a player that should have stayed at Rice where perhaps he could have produced more statistically for the team. Jeter may prove me wrong one day but I don't think he has as high a ceiling as his recruiting reputation gave him.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:44 PM
He also was probably overrated. This was a week class in terms of bigs; he might be the third or fourth best big in his class. Because of that, he probably got bumped up a bit whereas guards get bumped down due to depth. If he were rated in the 30s like he would have been in Kelly/Plumlee's class, nobody would bat an eye about his struggles.

Eh, you underestimate this board. People would still be freaking out about his play. :cool:

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:44 PM
I've mentioned in other threads that Jeter's game reminds me a bit of Joakim Noah's, which I'd take in a heartbeat.

But obviously a deer in the headlights right now.

He did have moments earlier in the season, such as against Georgetown.

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ID=4728298

I would love that outcome. Jeter would have to get MUCH better defensively, and better on the boards. Hope he gets there. He has the energy - just needs to develop the game to go with it.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:45 PM
Eh, you underestimate this board. People would still be freaking out about his play. :cool:

You are probably correct. Almost certainly so.

freshmanjs
01-25-2016, 08:45 PM
Not criticism, just a question. We seem to get plenty of McDonald AA and we get players that are a step below role players. What about the young men that fall in the middle of the pack? Those players have a value and surely would help this season. GoDuke!

They want to go where they think they will play. When Duke has 7,8,or 9 McD players on the roster, it's tough for those non McD players to commit to Duke (and tough for Duke to pass on McD caliber players for non-McD caliber players).

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:47 PM
I would love that outcome. Jeter would have to get MUCH better defensively, and better on the boards. Hope he gets there. He has the energy - just needs to develop the game to go with it.

Well, yes. But he has to get stronger and get more time on the floor. That will be the key.

Also needs to learn to avoid fouls. He's a foul magnet right now.

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 08:49 PM
#14 is a helluva ranking for an energy guy!
And some ranking services had him higher than that (for example - #11 ESPN, #8 Future150, etc.). If I'm not mistaken he was a solid top 10 recruit going into his senior year.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:51 PM
And some ranking services had him higher than that (for example - #11 ESPN, #8 Future150, etc.). If I'm not mistaken he was a solid top 10 recruit going into his senior year.

Another thing to consider - some guys don't adjust well when they go from "go-to guy" to "sparsely played role player." It takes time to find their legs.

jv001
01-25-2016, 08:51 PM
In the game tonight, it looked like the refs forgot about the physical play rule that was implemented. Both Brandon and Grayson looked like pinballs bouncing around. This style of play was perfectly suited for the Canes. I agree with those that posted regarding the lack of class displayed by Miami tonight. But I shouldn't be surprised, their football team is the same way. GoDuke!

ChillinDuke
01-25-2016, 08:52 PM
Who else is he putting in there?

Obi hasn't been much better. And I don't think Miami was a good matchup for someone slow looking as Obi.

Vrank? Maybe. But who knows the story on him. Robinson is a redshirt, so you're left with the walk ons.

Jeter and Obi are literally the only options we have at the 5 besides Plumlee at this point.

I think my point was I don't see any option other than Plumlee. Not even for a couple minutes per game. If it's an abaolute necessity that we sub someone for Plumlee I'd prefer Obi, not because he's been positively impactful, but because he hasn't been as negatively impactful.

I'd rather have an exhausted Plumlee or 4 foul Plumlee in there than either, though.

- Chillin

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:52 PM
They want to go where they think they will play. When Duke has 7,8,or 9 McD players on the roster, it's tough for those non McD players to commit to Duke (and tough for Duke to pass on McD caliber players for non-McD caliber players).

Agreed. Heck, I would argue that anyone not in the top-30 in his class should think long and hard before committing to Duke if playing time is a goal. It's just hard to earn PT when there are regularly 7-8 top-30 guys on the roster snd the team prefers a 7-8 man rotation. So for guys outside the top-50? Definitely makes sense to go elsewhere.

CDu
01-25-2016, 08:54 PM
I think my point was I don't see any option other than Plumlee. Not even for a couple minutes per game. If it's an abaolute necessity that we sub someone for Plumlee I'd prefer Obi, not because he's been positively impactful, but because he hasn't been as negatively impactful.

I'd rather have an exhausted Plumlee or 4 foul Plumlee in there than either, though.

- Chillin

Plumlee is playing 35+ mpg since Jefferson went down (not counting foul trouble games). They aren't going to play him all 40; that just isn't realistic for a big.

dukelifer
01-25-2016, 08:54 PM
I was actually thinking the same thing. We seem to get either absolute studs (Mickey D's) or guys that can't contribute at all. It would be nice to get some athletic non Mickey D's that can ball. Solid 4 year guys that are excellent role players. I think those guys may shy away from Duke due to the tight rotation, but it would have been great to have this season.

Not every kid will qualify at Duke. K likes to coach a certain kind of player. Duke has recruited 4 year role players- Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston come to mind. This is an off year because Duke won it all last year and one key player decided to go pro and another key player is hurt.

Troublemaker
01-25-2016, 08:55 PM
Grayson, Luke and BI driving and kicking and driving and kicking is beautiful and leads to open rhythm shots. I hope we get back there

We were "there" two days ago.

Every now and then, we just have to give the opponent credit. Miami obviously has very good defensive guards. The combination of that + a "loose" officiating crew + no Amile (fewer options when bread & butter of driving not working) led to them winning that battle. It happens.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 08:56 PM
Just looked to see if UNC gets to play Miami x2 this year. Nope. And they get Miami @ Chapel Hill.

Here's hoping Miami brings that same level of intensity there. :rolleyes:

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2016, 08:56 PM
I think my point was I don't see any option other than Plumlee. Not even for a couple minutes per game. If it's an abaolute necessity that we sub someone for Plumlee I'd prefer Obi, not because he's been positively impactful, but because he hasn't been as negatively impactful.

I'd rather have an exhausted Plumlee or 4 foul Plumlee in there than either, though.

- Chillin

I couldn't agree more. 25% Plumlee is better than the next alternative.

Most years, Derryck wouldn't play much either. But his depth is absolutely needed because he does provide value. Playing Jeter just isn't an option right now. It hurts the whole team when he plays.

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 08:56 PM
He also was probably overrated. This was a week class in terms of bigs; he might be the third or fourth best big in his class. Because of that, he probably got bumped up a bit whereas guards get bumped down due to depth. If he were rated in the 30s like he would have been in Kelly/Plumlee's class, nobody would bat an eye about his struggles.This was brought up before when discussing Jeter. However, when you look at 2015's top-25 recruits - almost all of them are pretty good or at least contributing. There's a chance Jeter was simply a miss by the majority of those involved in college basketball. If so, he isn't the first and certainly wont be the last.

ThrowItAround
01-25-2016, 08:56 PM
Stay at or above .500 in ACC until Amile gets back, not worried. Our RPI and SOS will both be top 40 if we do that. Next play, Go Duke!!

Billy Dat
01-25-2016, 08:57 PM
On the offensive side, Miami played an aggressive MTM and our guys,with the exception of Brandon, had trouble with it.


That was my first look at Miami and they have some depth and a complete, balanced team. Strong defensively, inside and on the ball.
Offensively they showed even more balance attacking off the dribble, spot up shooting, transition, posting up...and they played with teamwork,(24 assists) and composure. They also protected the ball with only 7 TO's.

This is a dangerous team for anybody in the country.

I thought Duke was weak defensively tonight. Without any depth, they just couldn't challenge like you know they want to. Too many easy dribble drives given up.

Offensively, Duke only had 8 assists. The offense seemed to consist of Allen and Ingram trying to breakdown the D on their own off the dribble and forced shooting from deep and crash the boards. Not much patience out there tonight.

Duke is playing tough. Nobody can question their effort.

I, too, thought Miami's defense was the story of the game more than Duke's defense. Until the end of the game when Duke needed stops to try and get it under 5, and we wound up trading baskets, I thought the defense was fine. It wasn't great, but it gave us a chance. We couldn't get anything going against their D, everything was one-on-one. Their assists compared to ours tell a big part of the story. It took Miami a while to figure out how to attack the zone, and when they did it started to pay-off, and we had a hard time in the second half limiting them to one shot.

It was also a game where K didn't have faith in Thornton early, you could see he didn't have confidence in him battling Rodriguez and Newton, so that forced Matt into more PG play and he wasn't effective. There were times I felt like we over-passed, lacking confidence on offense. Bottom line, they are better then us right now and they also played better then us.

I agree with Wheat, the team is playing hard. I'll take that every time. K has to keep their heads-up because there is a lot of ball left to play against a lot of really good teams!

jv001
01-25-2016, 08:59 PM
Just looked to see if UNC gets to play Miami x2 this year. Nope. And they get Miami @ Chapel Hill.

Here's hoping Miami brings that same level of intensity there. :rolleyes:

Does Swofford have anything to do with the scheduling? That could be the reason for Miami @ the cheats this season. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
01-25-2016, 09:01 PM
Perhaps because they mostly recruit McDonald AAs.I seem to remember Duke winning a National Championship last year. Historically, Duke has found a way to overcome their non contributing, non McDonald AAs.


I've had this discussion with several of my Duke buddies. Still waiting for the answer. Could it be academics keeping Duke from getting the non-McDonald players that can contribute. Especially on defense. GoDuke!

I think it's important to remember a couple of things here. First, some people are McD AA's because they go to Duke or because their class is not especially strong at their position, rather than the other way around. MP3, much as I love his effort and attitude, is a case in point. Would he really have been a McD AA if he hadn't been going to Duke/ His overall ranking in his class would suggest not.

Second, I don't think academics is the issue with non AAs, at least not more than it is with AAs. This is sometimes an issue for Duke with players at any level.

Third, if you are comparing Duke to Miami, I think you have to take into account that the non-AA stars from Miami are mature--both Rodriguez and McClellan are transfers, and both are 23 years old. Larranaga is a good coach, and he has an eye for picking up mature talent that might not have been as obvious in high school.

Whether any particular "program player" comes to Duke is going to depend on a lot of factors--but surely one is the large number of McD's who are on the roster. If you are a ready-for-college player who isn't quite as good as, say, Brandon Ingram or Luke Kennard, you might not want to compete against them for playing time. Jeter, for whatever reason, is not as ready as a freshman as one might have thought he would be, but he could still pay off down the line as a solid program player.

Brockt10
01-25-2016, 09:01 PM
I am normally the guy to overreact to losses and declare the sky is falling but I'm not overly concerned...yet. I truly believe with Amile in the lineup we have to potential to be a top 5 team. There normally isn't a massive impact from one player returning but Amile will have a huge roll in our turnaround.

1. Amile is the most vocal leader on the team and we really miss this on defense.
2. Amile is the best individual defender on the team.
3. Teams kill us with offensive rebounds. Amile is our best rebounder and could easily change this factor.
4. Our guys are tired and there is no denying that fact. Amile could give us 35 minutes of rest for the other 6 players
5. Our guys can be more aggressive on defense with an extra player.
6. Amile is our only true big guy with post moves and has the best shooting % while averaging 12 points.

I know I have seen all of these statements on various threads but people seem to be losing hope. According to kenpom, I believe Duke was a allowing 95 points per 100 possessions with Amile but Now over 100. DT and Luke have gotten better since Amile went down and this team could be a force when he comes back. I can say with a lot of confidence we would be an undefeated or a close 1 loss team in acc play without injuries.

jipops
01-25-2016, 09:03 PM
Disappointing yet un-surprising at the same time. Miami finished the game 6-6 from the floor. Our guys are just exhausted and there just isn't enough experience and skill to put on the floor to compensate for that.

Miami's defense really shut us down. They are quick and athletic, clearly the superior team. This wasn't a bad loss in that sense.

It isn't looking great with where Duke stands with the rest of the conference. We're starting to look like somewhere around the bottom of the middle tier, at best. Our only wins are against the acc's worst teams and who knows what would have happened if Cat hadn't banged his knee last Saturday. This may be one of those fan-cleansing seasons. And maybe the biggest difference between this team and uncCHeat 2010 is our guys have actual classes to go to.

Ray Smith
01-25-2016, 09:05 PM
I'm a Maryland grad and was very impressed with Coach K presser. Class, Class and more Class. Getting Jefferson back will be a game changer. Good luck rest of way. If we had Coach K we would be undefeated and # 1 this year.

ChillinDuke
01-25-2016, 09:11 PM
Plumlee is playing 35+ mpg since Jefferson went down (not counting foul trouble games). They aren't going to play him all 40; that just isn't realistic for a big.

Realistic more or less meaning reasonable in the normal course? I'd say we aren't in the normal course right now. And abnormal times call for abnormal strategies. We are extremely thin and have no option better than Plumlee for the 5- minutes he's out of the game. Use timeouts, hide him on D, slow the game to a crawl, do whatever you have to.

Anywho, it's not worth harping on the Plumlee sub situation as that probably isn't one of our 3 most glaring issues right now.

- Chillin

NYBri
01-25-2016, 09:14 PM
Go Devils. Now and Forever! 9F!!!!!!!

DukeWarhead
01-25-2016, 09:16 PM
As if I needed another reminder that this years team is not last years. Sobering to say the least. Would like to hold out hope for some kind of turn around, but each loss makes it harder to do so. Amile is great, but he's not superman. When he comes back (whenever that may be) he's not going to instantly make this team into a top tier squad. Too many shortcomings, I think. Would love to eat my words at the end of the season but something tells me I'm not in much danger of that. Wouldn't really care if UNC was down too, but they keep taking care of business which is beyond annoying. I'm never going to jump ship (impossible if its in your blood) but will definitely tune out a bit. Won't watch a few games. Prep myself for the end of the season which may be much sooner than normal. It's not giving up, it's just accepting what I usually never accept - Duke is a medium team this year. Will hate all the "on the bubble" talk that will come up in a few weeks. Need to tune that out big time.

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 09:18 PM
I am normally the guy to overreact to losses and declare the sky is falling but I'm not overly concerned...yet. I truly believe with Amile in the lineup we have to potential to be a top 5 team. There normally isn't a massive impact from one player returning but Amile will have a huge roll in our turnaround.

1. Amile is the most vocal leader on the team and we really miss this on defense.
2. Amile is the best individual defender on the team.
3. Teams kill us with offensive rebounds. Amile is our best rebounder and could easily change this factor.
4. Our guys are tired and there is no denying that fact. Amile could give us 35 minutes of rest for the other 6 players
5. Our guys can be more aggressive on defense with an extra player.
6. Amile is our only true big guy with post moves and has the best shooting % while averaging 12 points.

I know I have seen all of these statements on various threads but people seem to be losing hope. According to kenpom, I believe Duke was a allowing 95 points per 100 possessions with Amile but Now over 100. DT and Luke have gotten better since Amile went down and this team could be a force when he comes back. I can say with a lot of confidence we would be an undefeated or a close 1 loss team in acc play without injuries.I think the team's record with Amile points to how valuable he may be. 9-1 with wins over Georgetown, VCU and Indiana. The Georgetown and VCU wins were at a point when people were saying Ingram should be benched. This team has really only played one game with the real Ingram and healthy Amile on the court...and they blew out Indiana by 20. Could it be that despite Ingram's numbers, Amile is the glue that keeps this team functioning?

CDu
01-25-2016, 09:20 PM
Realistic more or less meaning reasonable in the normal course? I'd say we aren't in the normal course right now. And abnormal times call for abnormal strategies. We are extremely thin and have no option better than Plumlee for the 5- minutes he's out of the game. Use timeouts, hide him on D, slow the game to a crawl, do whatever you have to.

Anywho, it's not worth harping on the Plumlee sub situation as that probably isn't one of our 3 most glaring issues right now.

- Chillin

That is the thing, though: he IS basically playing the whole game. His last five games have been 36, 39, 38, 39, and now 36 minutes. Those 12 total minutes aren't the reason we have lost 4 of those 5 games.

The problems from game to game have been different. Against Clemson it was our defense failing to get stops and our offense going cold. Against Notre Dame it was Ingram's inability to handle Colson and some lucky shooting. Against Syracuse it was our offense. Tonight it was our offense.

CameronDuke
01-25-2016, 09:21 PM
I was surprised to see that the attendance tonight was 7,972 and it was a sellout. The BankUnited Center seemed a bit loud tonight at times but overall is one of the least hostile places to play it seems, if not for sheer lack of people in the building (maybe next to Boston College). The BankUnited Center has to be the smallest stadium in the league, full capacity speaking.

Saratoga2
01-25-2016, 09:22 PM
Who else is he putting in there?

Obi hasn't been much better. And I don't think Miami was a good matchup for someone slow looking as Obi.

Vrank? Maybe. But who knows the story on him. Robinson is a redshirt, so you're left with the walk ons.

Jeter and Obi are literally the only options we have at the 5 besides Plumlee at this point.

Vrank must be really bad if he is worse than Obi and Jeter who aren't good enough to get into the game. I wonder if there isn't something else going on there. There has been a lot of talk about Jeter on this thread, but even in the MacDonald's game he was a non factor against high school players, albeit good ones. Just hope that he can develop soon and provide us at least with some option in the latter part of the season.

I think as a team we lack toughness. Amile might be our toughest player this year along with Grayson. Miami seemed loaded with tough physical guys.

Brockt10
01-25-2016, 09:27 PM
I think the team's record with Amile points to how valuable he may be. 9-1 with wins over Georgetown, VCU and Indiana. The Georgetown and VCU wins were at a point when people were saying Ingram should be benched. This team has really only played one game with the real Ingram and healthy Amile on the court...and they blew out Indiana by 20. Could it be that despite Ingram's numbers, Amile is the glue that keeps this team functioning?

This is a great point. I, by no means, listed all of the reasons or evidence of this teams talent with Amile in my short description. I think vitale said it best during the game "get your shots in now while Amile is injured."

wavedukefan70s
01-25-2016, 09:42 PM
There guard play was better than ours.experience vs youth.amile hopefully will get back to game speed quickly when he returns. Again we are rebuilding a championship team. We will be ok thus year.
A real contender next year.with all of our players we are probably a elite 8 team.
That isnt bad.

devildeac
01-25-2016, 09:48 PM
disappointing.

I thought it was pretty classless of them to go for the slam in the final second after the steal. the outcome was never in doubt.

Maybe they'll print a t-shirt for their W tonight :rolleyes: .

weezie
01-25-2016, 09:53 PM
This was brought up before when discussing Jeter. However, when you look at 2015's top-25 recruits - almost all of them are pretty good or at least contributing. There's a chance Jeter was simply a miss by the majority of those involved in college basketball. If so, he isn't the first and certainly wont be the last.

Oh Eddie, which of those freshmen are playing in the glare of the spotlight at Duke , the Duke hate, the post-championship hangover, the announcers hugging themselves that they can talk about something other than K and Duke winning?
Those misses by Jeter are painful to watch when his head hangs. Bigs need time and patience, not everybody is a Jah and even he had his "Oy" moments.

Come on Jeetz keep working!

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 09:54 PM
Look on the bright side. Miami didn't beat Duke nearly as badly as Iowa State just took it to Kansas.

weezie
01-25-2016, 09:59 PM
Look on the bright side. Miami didn't beat Duke nearly as badly as Iowa State just took it to Kansas.

Yes, isn't it nice of the jayhork to steal the spotlight?

Furniture
01-25-2016, 10:00 PM
I am with Weezie. I really feel for kids and look forward to the day when Jeter really shows the Debby Doubters what he can do....

dyedwab
01-25-2016, 10:10 PM
1) This team plays really, really hard and plays till the last buzzer. Even last year's national championship team didn't always do that. All credit to them.

2) We all know this team isn't deep, and it never was going to be deep. But what losing Amile did was not only make us thinner, but less flexible. What it also did was change to part of the season where our freshman (and Grayson) were learning how to win to a part of the season where we were adjusting to playing without Amile.

3) We are also thinner than we were supposed to be, simply because Chase, Sean, and Derryck have not been as good as I know that we as fans thought they were going to be. We've talked about Sean/Chase ad nauseum, but here's the other issue. We don't really have a 6 man rotation right now. We have a 5.5 man rotation because Derryck's hasn't earned a consistent 20-30 minutes a game yet. As depth issues go, I think that may big the biggest surprise of the season.

4) For this team, at this point, making the tournament should be viewed as a tremendous accomplishment. Treating it as a given that we will make it actually ends up underselling what this team will have to do to get there.

5) I like this team - and I feel bad for this team. Many of them will make a lot of money playing pro ball, and Brandon Ingram will end up as the 1 or 2 pick in the draft, but they are, for reasons both intrinsic and extrinsic, going through enormous frustration right now.

Kjeffrey
01-25-2016, 10:19 PM
I felt there were SEVERAL moments where McClellan could have gotten T'd up. Demonstrably protesting calls, taunting opposing players, then the scrum at the end where he was obviously out of control.

Without a doubt he deserved a T on multiple occasions. Just like Rodriguez and his throat slashing last year. No one will ever accuse Larranaga of recruiting classy kids. They played a great game and there is no need for that kind of behavior.

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-25-2016, 10:19 PM
Still sayin' --- it's all practice 'til March.
Love, Ima

Kjeffrey
01-25-2016, 10:24 PM
I was actually thinking the same thing. We seem to get either absolute studs (Mickey D's) or guys that can't contribute at all. It would be nice to get some athletic non Mickey D's that can ball. Solid 4 year guys that are excellent role players. I think those guys may shy away from Duke due to the tight rotation, but it would have been great to have this season.

I think the same thing every time I watch Virginia play. I am not asking for a roster of them but just a few to fill voids when great players leave early for the NBA.

CoachJ10
01-25-2016, 10:29 PM
I think it's fair to say that with Amile, instead of 4 conference losses, we probably have 1. It is hard for any team to lose their most important player and not suffer a setback. In every one of these losses, we can see where and how Amile changes the outcome of the game.

Now an emotional comment. I have echoed in years past, how it really bothers me that the premier basketball conference in the country could have such bad refs. Tonight was no exception to that thesis. In college basketball, with the limits of 5 fouls as well as the emotional volatility of youngsters, reffing can and does effect outcomes of games. The kids deserve better.

Furniture
01-25-2016, 10:30 PM
If we had not have won the natty last year we probably would have Winslow and jones back.
I prefer this problem....

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 11:01 PM
Oh Eddie, which of those freshmen are playing in the glare of the spotlight at Duke , the Duke hate, the post-championship hangover, the announcers hugging themselves that they can talk about something other than K and Duke winning?
Those misses by Jeter are painful to watch when his head hangs. Bigs need time and patience, not everybody is a Jah and even he had his "Oy" moments.

Come on Jeetz keep working!Haha - I know of at least three other freshmen playing in the glare of the spotlight at Duke...Kennard, Thornton and Ingram. All are serviceable-great. I'm not writing off Jeter by any means, but at this point his performance is toward the bottom of 2015 big men.

After the game K laughed at the Miami fans chanting "overrated" and said something like "we have 6 guys" - apparently coach has no plans of incorporating Jeter into the lineup.

6 players
3 are freshmen (one could've been a HS senior)
1 is a sophomore who averaged 4.4 ppg the previous season
1 is a junior who averaged 6.0 ppg the previous season
1 is a senior who averaged 2.2 ppg the previous season

This team has little-no experience, no clear leader without Amile, the thinnest front-court imaginable and no bench. If K can work enough magic to sneak into the tourney, it may be one of his best coaching jobs.

westwall
01-25-2016, 11:10 PM
If we had not have won the natty last year we probably would have Winslow and jones back.
I prefer this problem...

Understand the sentiment but, realistically, Jones' departure probably was due to the championship, but not Winslow's. I watched both in their international play prior to Duke. I saw Winslow as a really good 3-4 year player because I had seen no sign of a significant 3-point shot. But when I saw him hit 3's in his early games as a freshman, I thought ****, I was wrong,--- he's gone after one!

Kedsy
01-26-2016, 12:04 AM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?


I've had this discussion with several of my Duke buddies. Still waiting for the answer. Could it be academics keeping Duke from getting the non-McDonald players that can contribute. Especially on defense. GoDuke!


I was actually thinking the same thing. We seem to get either absolute studs (Mickey D's) or guys that can't contribute at all. It would be nice to get some athletic non Mickey D's that can ball. Solid 4 year guys that are excellent role players. I think those guys may shy away from Duke due to the tight rotation, but it would have been great to have this season.

I'm having problems taking this particular discussion seriously, but I'll try.

First of all, in the past 20 years, Duke has had six (6) or more McDonald's All Americans on the roster 17 times (every season in the range except 2005 (5); 2011 (5); and 2012 (4)). So any non-McD player would presumably be at best the 7th guy -- and half the time the 8th or 9th or even 10th guy -- in a 7-man rotation.

How much do you expect the 7th or 8th guy to contribute on a team that only plays 7 or 8 guys?

Here's the 20-year list:

NUMBER OF McDONALD'S ALL AMERICANS ON DUKE'S ACTIVE ROSTER

1996-97: 6
1997-98: 7 (8 if you count Nate James, who got a medical redshirt after playing 6 games)
1998-99: 7
1999-00: 6
2000-01: 7
2001-02: 6
2002-03: 7
2003-04: 6 (7 if you count Michael Thompson, who transferred halfway through the season)
2004-05: 5
2005-06: 6
2006-07: 6
2007-08: 8
2008-09: 7
2009-10: 6
2010-11: 5
2011-12: 4
2012-13: 6
2013-14: 7
2014-15: 9 (including Rasheed Sulaimon)
2015-16: 7

All that said, despite having so many McD players on the roster, the idea that none of Duke's non-McDonald AAs have contributed is completely false. Here's a list of non-McDonald's AAs in the past 20 years who contributed as at least rotation players, if not more:

Jeff Capel
Roshown McLeod
Greg Newton
Mike Chappell
Chris Carrawell
Will Avery
Dahntay Jones
Shelden Williams
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Seth Curry
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston
Derryck Thornton

That's 17 guys in 20 years, almost one per season, including several very high achievers, and several guys who contributed as freshmen. In fact, those 17 non-McDs started a combined 888 games for Duke.

What more did you want?



.

gep
01-26-2016, 12:27 AM
I am normally the guy to overreact to losses and declare the sky is falling but I'm not overly concerned...yet. I truly believe with Amile in the lineup we have to potential to be a top 5 team. There normally isn't a massive impact from one player returning but Amile will have a huge roll in our turnaround.

1. Amile is the most vocal leader on the team and we really miss this on defense.
2. Amile is the best individual defender on the team.
3. Teams kill us with offensive rebounds. Amile is our best rebounder and could easily change this factor.
4. Our guys are tired and there is no denying that fact. Amile could give us 35 minutes of rest for the other 6 players
5. Our guys can be more aggressive on defense with an extra player.
6. Amile is our only true big guy with post moves and has the best shooting % while averaging 12 points.

I know I have seen all of these statements on various threads but people seem to be losing hope. According to kenpom, I believe Duke was a allowing 95 points per 100 possessions with Amile but Now over 100. DT and Luke have gotten better since Amile went down and this team could be a force when he comes back. I can say with a lot of confidence we would be an undefeated or a close 1 loss team in acc play without injuries.


Still sayin' --- it's all practice 'til March.
Love, Ima

My thought... this ACC season so far is to get DT and Luke "aclimated" to the college game. Amile comes back with 8 or so ACC regular season games left... enough to get him and the team cohesive again. Then, win the ACC tournament. Then on to the NCAA tournament, go very far, into the FF, and the NC. How's that for optimism :cool:

Bob Green
01-26-2016, 04:16 AM
A few random observations:

1. We played poorly for the second Monday in a row. Dead legs? We play N.C. State on Saturday 2/6 followed by Louisville on Monday 2/8.
2. We won the rebound battle 37-33 (per ESPN box score). Ingram and Plumlee fought hard on the glass.
3. Miami dished out 24 assists to our eight. Only eight assists indicates poor ball movement or one-on-one offense.
4. We have no big men options off the bench. Chase Jeter needs to get much stronger.
5. The team plays hard and does not quit. This trait will be very important moving forward.

I'm not optimistic we can achieve positive results without Jefferson. I am optimistic we will turn the corner once Jefferson returns to the court.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-26-2016, 04:40 AM
Frustrating game. Our D feels like it is getting worse, not better.

I worry that we have gone from "oh wow, Amile is so surprisingly good this year!" to "Amile is Tim Duncan, when he returns we shall bash our opponents." Lotta pressure on that young man.

I still think we have growth potential. If we can get healthy and improve our defense, it will be great to watch this group of kids reel off a few W's.

Only silver-lining: UNC will just be THAT MUCH MORE peeved when we beat them.

Go Duke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-26-2016, 05:00 AM
Also, not sure how the take-away from last night is "we need less talent." Odd argument.

The McD distinction is arbitrary. We all like four year guys, and I would say MP3, Jones and Amile are good four year leaders performing that role.

Those of you complaining about Jeter's comparatively slow start ought to be reassured that this increases the chances he will stick around, right?

I am not sure what the non-AA group yearns for. McD's just picks out a group of guys based on talent and reputation that they think will be future stars. There's no magic formula. Does the "fewer McD's group" want less talented players? Or do you just want more talented non-recognized players? Because as noted upthread, unrecognized talented guys become immediately recognized when Duke offers them.

I don't quite get the perspective there.

Go Duke!

Saratoga2
01-26-2016, 05:57 AM
Haha - I know of at least three other freshmen playing in the glare of the spotlight at Duke...Kennard, Thornton and Ingram. All are serviceable-great. I'm not writing off Jeter by any means, but at this point his performance is toward the bottom of 2015 big men.

After the game K laughed at the Miami fans chanting "overrated" and said something like "we have 6 guys" - apparently coach has no plans of incorporating Jeter into the lineup.

6 players
3 are freshmen (one could've been a HS senior)
1 is a sophomore who averaged 4.4 ppg the previous season
1 is a junior who averaged 6.0 ppg the previous season
1 is a senior who averaged 2.2 ppg the previous season

This team has little-no experience, no clear leader without Amile, the thinnest front-court imaginable and no bench. If K can work enough magic to sneak into the tourney, it may be one of his best coaching jobs.

Coach K, for various reasons, only trusts Marshall in the front court. That means Marshall is playing major minutes even when we have just a day off and travel. We also have 5 guards who even if we divide the minutes equally would still play 32 minutes each per game. Until Amile returns, I don't expect anything to change.

Coach K has a situation where he must use the zone defense to protect from fouling and to reduce energy expenditure. Clearly, our zone is porous and against good teams our only hope is to score a lot of points.

When Marshall plays with energy he has had some excellent games. When he plays to avoid fouling and is tired he doesn't make an attempt to challenge shots so anyone coming to the top of the key when we play zone has a wide open shot. Guarding 5 feet from the player with hands only partially raised is completely ineffective so anyone can score at will. Our zone is porous for other reasons as well. Back door and alley oop baskets are high percentage shots and we gave 3 point shooters quite a bit of room, sometimes closing out late with two players, leaving other opportunities as others have noted.

Miami is a very good team and they exploited us in all those areas even though Brandon and Grayson were flying around trying to defend and Matt, Luke and Derryck all put up resistance.

Interesting that Miami had 7 blocks to none for us. Also that Marshall got his first foul with under 10 minutes to go in the second half. Is a tired Marshall playing soft better than any other alternative?

Still we were in the game until the last couple of minutes when our guys got desperate and turned the ball over and had to foul. We had 7 TO's between Grayson and Brandon. We do have a lot of talent but we are in danger of losing on any night in the schedule.

cspan37421
01-26-2016, 06:01 AM
There has been a lot of talk about Jeter on this thread, but even in the MacDonald's game he was a non factor against high school players, albeit good ones.



I noticed that too, and in retrospect, it presaged what we're seeing now. Hopefully he'll develop well, as so many other 4-year players have done. Rough start thus far, though.

cspan37421
01-26-2016, 06:11 AM
After the game K laughed at the Miami fans chanting "overrated" and said something like "we have 6 guys"

Ouch, if you're the 2nd guy off the bench, or further back.

NashvilleDevil
01-26-2016, 06:15 AM
How is it that other schools are able to recruit non McDonald AA that are real contributors and even occasionally contribute as freshmen, but Duke cannot do that?

How is it other schools don't have 5 national titles in the last 25 years?

lotusland
01-26-2016, 06:22 AM
Completely agree about Plumlee--recently he has provided a lot of putback and inside points that were totally missing tonight. Never thought I would say that good defense on MP3 was the key to a win over Duke but tonight it was a major factor.

Re this week, we don't have another game before the polls come out--GT is next Tuesday. The week off is great in terms of giving Amile more time but unless there are a lot of losses by other teams I think we can kiss the ranked streak goodbye.



Definitely true, and we didn't score enough in the second half either. Not scoring enough is the single most important factor in every loss...

Not scoring enough is a frequent problem in losses.

devildeac
01-26-2016, 06:25 AM
Nice summary from the News and Observer this am:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article56557223.html

Three points from my perspective:

1. We were tired. Despite a disagreement in chat last pm, this sure looks like a big contributor here. Not shooting well, perhaps a half-step (or full step) slow to defend/get to a spot on the floor.

2. Krzyzewski commented multiple times on Miami’s physicality. See my post in the FoM thread and a couple other comments from Coach110 (I think. Who I'll guess is a youth basketball coach.). K seems to agree: “Brandon (Ingram) has to keep going,” Krzyzewski said, unprompted. “As he’s growing, he should have a game where he gets 12, 15 free throws with all the stuff that he’s doing. He’s got to learn the game better, I guess. He’s playing so . . . hard and not necessarily getting rewarded for some of his strong efforts.”

3. And, not to belabor the lack of calls any further, here's another K komment: “They’re better than we are,” Krzyzewski said of Miami.

It's been ~6 weeks since Amile got hurt. Get well soon, young man.

devildeac
01-26-2016, 06:27 AM
Ouch, if you're the 2nd guy off the bench, or further back.

Brainless fans. (Mostly) classless players. Maybe they should get a t-shirt printed...

Duke76
01-26-2016, 06:58 AM
Nice summary from the News and Observer this am:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article56557223.html

Three points from my perspective:

1. We were tired. Despite a disagreement in chat last pm, this sure looks like a big contributor here. Not shooting well, perhaps a half-step (or full step) slow to defend/get to a spot on the floor.

2. Krzyzewski commented multiple times on Miami’s physicality. See my post in the FoM thread and a couple other comments from Coach110 (I think. Who I'll guess is a youth basketball coach.). K seems to agree: “Brandon (Ingram) has to keep going,” Krzyzewski said, unprompted. “As he’s growing, he should have a game where he gets 12, 15 free throws with all the stuff that he’s doing. He’s got to learn the game better, I guess. He’s playing so . . . hard and not necessarily getting rewarded for some of his strong efforts.”

3. And, not to belabor the lack of calls any further, here's another K komment: “They’re better than we are,” Krzyzewski said of Miami.

It's been ~6 weeks since Amile got hurt. Get well soon, young man.

But this is a better quote from the same article and to me the determining factor in the game and really most of our loses. We are really bad at "leveling off the dribbler".

"“The term we use is level off the dribbler,” Larrañaga said. “In other words, we’re not going to let them turn the corner and go directly toward the rim. And our guys are quick enough laterally, and we work on it every single day to teach our guys how to guard a dribbler.

“What Duke does incredibly well, maybe better than any team I’ve seen this year, for sure, is straight-line drive,” Larrañaga continued. “And that’s the hardest thing to guard, where a guy just is going hard. But we’re entitled to our position.”

The Hurricanes were strong enough to stand their ground when a Duke driver bumped into them, which threw the driver off, not the defense. The Blue Devils guards attempted just 11 free throws between the five of them, an indication of their inability to fight through the Miami players to the rim.

“Brandon (Ingram) has to keep going,” Krzyzewski said, unprompted. “As he’s growing, he should have a game where he gets 12, 15 free throws with all the stuff that he’s doing. He’s got to learn the game better, I guess. He’s playing so . . . hard and not necessarily getting rewarded for some of his strong efforts.”


Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article56557223.html#storylink=cpy

CDu
01-26-2016, 07:11 AM
I'm having problems taking this particular discussion seriously, but I'll try.

First of all, in the past 20 years, Duke has had six (6) or more McDonald's All Americans on the roster 17 times (every season in the range except 2005 (5); 2011 (5); and 2012 (4)). So any non-McD player would presumably be at best the 7th guy -- and half the time the 8th or 9th or even 10th guy -- in a 7-man rotation.

How much do you expect the 7th or 8th guy to contribute on a team that only plays 7 or 8 guys?

Here's the 20-year list:

NUMBER OF McDONALD'S ALL AMERICANS ON DUKE'S ACTIVE ROSTER

1996-97: 6
1997-98: 7 (8 if you count Nate James, who got a medical redshirt after playing 6 games)
1998-99: 7
1999-00: 6
2000-01: 7
2001-02: 6
2002-03: 7
2003-04: 6 (7 if you count Michael Thompson, who transferred halfway through the season)
2004-05: 5
2005-06: 6
2006-07: 6
2007-08: 8
2008-09: 7
2009-10: 6
2010-11: 5
2011-12: 4
2012-13: 6
2013-14: 7
2014-15: 9 (including Rasheed Sulaimon)
2015-16: 7

All that said, despite having so many McD players on the roster, the idea that none of Duke's non-McDonald AAs have contributed is completely false. Here's a list of non-McDonald's AAs in the past 20 years who contributed as at least rotation players, if not more:

Jeff Capel
Roshown McLeod
Greg Newton
Mike Chappell
Chris Carrawell
Will Avery
Dahntay Jones
Shelden Williams
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Seth Curry
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston
Derryck Thornton

That's 17 guys in 20 years, almost one per season, including several very high achievers, and several guys who contributed as freshmen. In fact, those 17 non-McDs started a combined 888 games for Duke.

What more did you want?



.

While I certainly agree with your sentiment, that list is a bit disingenuous. Shelden Williams was a top-10 recruit who only didn't get McD's status due to the false alleged rape incident. Will Avery, Chappell, and Carrawell were top-30 recruits and Parade All-Americans who just happened to not be selected for the game. McLeod, Curry, and Jones were transfers who didn't play for Duke until their fourth (third for Curry) years, so they clearly didn't contribute as frosh for us, and the identification of their talents was done by another coach. And D Thornton and Dawkins were sure-fire McDonald's candidates who reclassified after the McD's game and skipped their senior year.

Yes, by the literal interpretation those guys were all non-McDs guys. Of course, by the literal interpretation many of those guys didn't contribute for Duke as freshmen. But the spirit of the comment is pretty clearly being violated in this list. McD's is shorthand for elite (4-5 star) recruit. Many of the non-McDs guys were still elite recruits (some moreso than actual McDs guys).

Wheat/"/"/"
01-26-2016, 07:16 AM
Ouch, if you're the 2nd guy off the bench, or further back.

It surprises me too that coach K keeps saying stuff like "we only have six guys". Isn't that a thought you keep to yourself? It does seem a little disrespectful to the guys he recruited.

It's possible he may not realize how this sounds to the public. He wouldn't intentionally "throw his bench under the bus".

I'm guessing that, in his mind, he was only thinking about Jefferson and his injury when he said that?...while the fans are looking at the bench for help.

I bet someone gets to him on it and we don't hear any more of that going forward and goes back to " we're young", "we're inexperienced" etc...not we're non-existent.

jipops
01-26-2016, 07:27 AM
It surprises me too that coach K keeps saying stuff like "we only have six guys". Isn't that a thought you keep to yourself? It does seem a little disrespectful to the guys he recruited.

It's possible he may not realize how this sounds to the public. He wouldn't intentionally "throw his bench under the bus".

I'm guessing that, in his mind, he was only thinking about Jefferson and his injury when he said that?...while the fans are looking at the bench for help.

I bet someone gets to him on it and we don't hear any more of that going forward and goes back to " we're young", "we're inexperienced" etc...not we're non-existent.

It would be far more acceptable if he compared his bench to a Haiti disaster.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-26-2016, 07:32 AM
It would be far more acceptable if he compared his bench to a Haiti disaster.

Best defense is a good offense, eh?

Coaches are often misunderstood...and that's the point.

fuse
01-26-2016, 07:38 AM
Maybe this belongs in the optimist thread.
Experts keep saying this is a down year for college basketball.
What I see is our current six is as good as 90% of other teams.
With Amile, maybe that goes to 95%.

What is missing is our team (even better than 90% of other teams) has a hard time competing against the other team's best shot.

If we get in the tournament, we'll be a dangerous team.

I trust the coaching staff will continue to support and build the team's fragile psyche and keep the team on a get better daily path.

Go Duke!

jipops
01-26-2016, 07:38 AM
Best defense is a good offense, eh?

Coaches are often misunderstood...and that's the point.

Either misunderstood, or making a point. Only they really know.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-26-2016, 07:43 AM
Either misunderstood, or making a point. Only they really know.

True. Maybe it is his way of motivation.

ChillinDuke
01-26-2016, 08:01 AM
Either misunderstood, or making a point. Only they really know.

Or stating a fact?

The box score shows only 2 minutes were played by someone outside our top 6. So, unless you want to split hairs, we had 6 guys. Last night.

It's possible we will have 7 guys at some point. But without Amile, I'd say that is only a slight possibility.

- Chillin

sagegrouse
01-26-2016, 08:01 AM
Kennard and Ingram were McD's guys. The post you referenced specified non-McD's freshmen. Those guys rarely ever appear for us.

If all our players are MacDonald A-A's, how do we expect non-McD's to contribute?

Forrest
01-26-2016, 08:05 AM
Here's a list of non-McDonald's AAs in the past 20 years who contributed as at least rotation players, if not more:

Jeff Capel
Roshown McLeod
Greg Newton
Mike Chappell
Chris Carrawell
Will Avery
Dahntay Jones
Shelden Williams
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Seth Curry
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston
Derryck Thornton

That's 17 guys in 20 years, almost one per season, including several very high achievers, and several guys who contributed as freshmen. In fact, those 17 non-McDs started a combined 888 games for Duke.

First, I have to quibble with your list. Roshown McLeod, Dahntay Jones and Seth Curry (along with Rodney Hood, who you omitted) were transfers who had proven their ability elsewhere. That's not the same as recruiting a non-McD A-A out of high school. Also, Derryck Thornton and Andre Dawkins skipped their last year of HS, in which both were on track to be McD A-A, to enroll and play early at Duke. IIRC, Shelden Williams was very highly recruited and on track to be McD A-A, but left off the team because of some alleged incident in high school.

There are still some excellent players on your list - I'd take a team of Avery, Capel, Carrawell, Plumlee and Zoubek over our current squad - but in the last ten years there are only three who've made any real difference for Duke - Brian Zoubek, Miles Plumlee and Tyler Thornton. There are none on the roster this year, and there were none last year. Also, in the last ten years, about half of the recruited non-McD A-A's have transferred: Pocius, Czyz, Gbinije, Murphy, and Ojeleye.

Having just lost four games to teams with a total of three McD A-As (Demetrius Jackson, Malachi Richardson and DaJuan Coleman), any one of which could probably defeat our non-McD A-A all-star team of the last ten years, I can see why some people are wondering why we can't find more good players outside the top 25 or so.

Scorp4me
01-26-2016, 08:05 AM
After the game K laughed at the Miami fans chanting "overrated" and said something like "we have 6 guys" - apparently coach has no plans of incorporating Jeter into the lineup.


I was about to criticize the DBR for yet again forgetting that Obi is on the team in their write up...but I see Coach K has done the same and raised them a few players. Look I understand where he's coming from, but quite frankly from one coach to another (albeit one on another plane of success from me) he doesn't get a pass. For all his talk of fist and team and everything that's a load of crap. I think it's crazy that other coaches can get such success from players like Obi and Gbinije and they can't even get off the bench here is a bit disheartening. And yes I realize one was a freshman when he did it and another is a red shirt senior when he's doing it, it's why I included both ends of the spectrum.

And those trying to make it out that Duke should recruit "less talented players" when questioning why we can't have non-super studs who can play a little ball are simply being rediculous. If you're going to recruit one and dones you have to have some players that stick around. Now maybe a few didn't pan out, and maybe some are hurt, and maybe some left early because you won a championship you weren't expecting. All completely valid reasons and all completely valid complaints. So it's all much ado about nothing.

But that doesn't mean you completely forget about your other players in a press conference. I'll guarantee you I read in the book about how even the last guy on the bench is important and how you have to be ready and yada yada yada. I'm not making too much out of it, because in the end it is perhaps a small thing. But it just goes to show you even K is human.

RepoMan
01-26-2016, 08:14 AM
Totally agree on the classlessness of the Canes as noted by the posters above. It's a shame, because they are well coached and play good basketball.

I know its just a fan message board, but I hate stuff like this after a loss. Miami beat us. They were better. Duke is the premier team in the league over the last 20 years. We won the national championship last year. Opponents will be fired up, and things will get chippy. Man up and take it out on them the next time we play. Complaining about lack of "class" fuels the anti-Duke / Duke fans are whiny elitists meme.

sagegrouse
01-26-2016, 08:15 AM
I was about to criticize the DBR for yet again forgetting that Obi is on the team in their write up...but I see Coach K has done the same and raised them a few players. Look I understand where he's coming from, but quite frankly from one coach to another (albeit one on another plane of success from me) he doesn't get a pass. For all his talk of fist and team and everything that's a load of crap. I think it's crazy that other coaches can get such success from players like Obi and Gbinije and they can't even get off the bench here is a bit disheartening. And yes I realize one was a freshman when he did it and another is a red shirt senior when he's doing it, it's why I included both ends of the spectrum.

And those trying to make it out that Duke should recruit "less talented players" when questioning why we can't have non-super studs who can play a little ball are simply being rediculous. If you're going to recruit one and dones you have to have some players that stick around. Now maybe a few didn't pan out, and maybe some are hurt, and maybe some left early because you won a championship you weren't expecting. All completely valid reasons and all completely valid complaints. So it's all much ado about nothing.

But that doesn't mean you completely forget about your other players in a press conference. I'll guarantee you I read in the book about how even the last guy on the bench is important and how you have to be ready and yada yada yada. I'm not making too much out of it, because in the end it is perhaps a small thing. But it just goes to show you even K is human.

Duke vs. Miami looked like 20 YO's vs. 30 YO's. We are missing something by having a roster of wunderkinder. OTOH we have decided to go after the very best players, regardless of their likely tenure as Blue Devils. We can't be displeased with the long-term results.

Miami was very impressive last night -- some real daggers in the first half. I worry less about the jams in the closing minutes when we were pressing.

Next play and c'mon Amile!!

CDu
01-26-2016, 08:16 AM
Or stating a fact?

The box score shows only 2 minutes were played by someone outside our top 6. So, unless you want to split hairs, we had 6 guys. Last night.

It's possible we will have 7 guys at some point. But without Amile, I'd say that is only a slight possibility.

- Chillin

No, we play six guys. We have 9 recruited players who aren't redshirting. That was the point being made: we are choosing to play just six guys. That choice may be correct as Jeter and Obi don't appear ready/able to contribute. But from an outside perspective, I can see it is hard to take the "we have 6 guys" thing seriously when the 7th and 8th guys are a McDs guy and a third year guy who averaged 11 and 9 at a midmajor as a frosh.

uh_no
01-26-2016, 08:17 AM
First, I have to quibble with your list. Roshown McLeod, Dahntay Jones and Seth Curry (along with Rodney Hood, who you omitted) were transfers who had proven their ability elsewhere. That's not the same as recruiting a non-McD A-A out of high school. Also, Derryck Thornton and Andre Dawkins skipped their last year of HS, in which both were on track to be McD A-A, to enroll and play early at Duke. IIRC, Shelden Williams was very highly recruited and on track to be McD A-A, but left off the team because of some alleged incident in high school.

There are still some excellent players on your list - I'd take a team of Avery, Capel, Carrawell, Plumlee and Zoubek over our current squad - but in the last ten years there are only three who've made any real difference for Duke - Brian Zoubek, Miles Plumlee and Tyler Thornton. There are none on the roster this year, and there were none last year. Also, in the last ten years, about half of the recruited non-McD A-A's have transferred: Pocius, Czyz, Gbinije, Murphy, and Ojeleye.

Having just lost four games to teams with a total of three McD A-As (Demetrius Jackson, Malachi Richardson and DaJuan Coleman), any one of which could probably defeat our non-McD A-A all-star team of the last ten years, I can see why some people are wondering why we can't find more good players outside the top 25 or so.

if I were a non mickey D, looking at jahlil, justice, tyus, and grayson in my class, and likely loaded classes stack up after, why the heck would I come to duke and ride the bench a lot?

People here look at it like you must be some kind of moron if you don't want to come to duke regardless of circumstances. But for a lot of kids, being the guy, or one of the main starters in a program is really important to them. our recruiting is so good that I think it often hurts picking up those middle kids. As we see, even, a lot of them get here and then transfer elsewhere anyway to get playing time.

Those kids can go to a place like miami, get playing time right away, shine, and play in big games. That sounds like a much better situation than riding the bench for a title team if your goal is to play big game basketball.

Just a hunch.

jv001
01-26-2016, 08:23 AM
Or stating a fact?

The box score shows only 2 minutes were played by someone outside our top 6. So, unless you want to split hairs, we had 6 guys. Last night.

It's possible we will have 7 guys at some point. But without Amile, I'd say that is only a slight possibility.

- Chillin

For those of us Duke fans that watch almost every game, it's easy to see what Coach K is talking about. We've seen Jeter and Obi get a chance to contribute. The effort is there, but not the talent. Well, at this point in Jeter's career he doesn't have the talent. It's going to be interesting to see how much he improves under our coaching staff. As others have stated, he didn't look good in the McDonalds all star game either. He seemed over matched. GoDuke!

rsvman
01-26-2016, 08:31 AM
.... Complaining about lack of "class" fuels the anti-Duke / Duke fans are whiny elitists meme.

Even when the opponent lacks class. :p

tux
01-26-2016, 08:36 AM
Nice summary from the News and Observer this am:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article56557223.html

Three points from my perspective:

1. We were tired. Despite a disagreement in chat last pm, this sure looks like a big contributor here. Not shooting well, perhaps a half-step (or full step) slow to defend/get to a spot on the floor.

2. Krzyzewski commented multiple times on Miami’s physicality. See my post in the FoM thread and a couple other comments from Coach110 (I think. Who I'll guess is a youth basketball coach.). K seems to agree: “Brandon (Ingram) has to keep going,” Krzyzewski said, unprompted. “As he’s growing, he should have a game where he gets 12, 15 free throws with all the stuff that he’s doing. He’s got to learn the game better, I guess. He’s playing so . . . hard and not necessarily getting rewarded for some of his strong efforts.”

3. And, not to belabor the lack of calls any further, here's another K komment: “They’re better than we are,” Krzyzewski said of Miami.

It's been ~6 weeks since Amile got hurt. Get well soon, young man.


It has to be very frustrating for Brandon and Grayson to be getting so few calls in the lane. I think the issue with Grayson is that sometimes it looks like he's driving *only* to create contact and draw a foul. I think sometimes refs decide not to blow the whistle if they think a player is just looking for a whistle.

Miami really made driving difficult and they were still quick enough to get out on our shooters. We had very few assists and started to look very stagnant with a bunch of desperate drives. But I was proud of the way the guys kept fighting.

6th Man
01-26-2016, 08:49 AM
I don't think anyone is saying recruit less talented players. I think the point is we get the McDonald's guys and that is great. But it seems that the guys that aren't McDonald's guys don't seem to pan out. I am thinking of guys we used to get like Brian Davis, Robert Brickey, Thomas Hill. I would call them great talents that fit the athletic mold designed to play man to man defense, but don't believe were McDonald's All-Americans. Maybe it is luck that they worked out for us, but I find it hard to believe that K can't evaluate that kind of talent at this point in his career. He talks about us being 6 deep and I don't recall the last time I saw Vrankovic on the court. Robinson is a good height for what we need and he is remaining a walk-on. Were there not other guys out there that could have really helped this team that we should have gone after instead? Maybe not??? I would agree that K's tight rotation would probably hurt the chance of recruiting such players. If we have 6 or 7 high school all-americans, that is most likely what is going to play barring injury/foul trouble. I don't want to go after less talented players, I just wish the guys deemed less talented were capable of being on the court. I think watching Miami last night with athletic guys that were not high school all-americans take it to us, probably made some folks think...why can't we get just one of those type guys? And yes, we did win the title last year...

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 08:59 AM
It surprises me too that coach K keeps saying stuff like "we only have six guys". Isn't that a thought you keep to yourself? It does seem a little disrespectful to the guys he recruited.

We can give Coach K the benefit of the doubt that he meant "We only have six guys playing at a level where I feel comfortable putting them in a game for more than spot minutes right now. However, I love all my guys. They all run their own race, and I and my staff will continue to work with the ones not currently playing to raise their level so that they can play in the future."

He obviously did NOT mean "Jeter and Obi and the rest, you guys suck and you sicken me. I've given up on you. Now watch how I burn you by saying that my team only has 6 guys, which if you're not paying attention, doesn't include you! Feel the Bern, you commie losers!"

Furniture
01-26-2016, 08:59 AM
For those of us Duke fans that watch almost every game, it's easy to see what Coach K is talking about. We've seen Jeter and Obi get a chance to contribute. The effort is there, but not the talent. Well, at this point in Jeter's career he doesn't have the talent. It's going to be interesting to see how much he improves under our coaching staff. As others have stated, he didn't look good in the McDonalds all star game either. He seemed over matched. GoDuke!

According to the commentators who talked to K yesterday he thinks that Jeter is close to getting it( whatever that is). He is doing very well in practice and one good spell on the court could change it all.
As for his spell on the court yesterday I thought he did ok and wasn't the disaster everyone is making out here.
He was given the ball down low at one point but clearly fouled. After the no call he was promptly removed.
In regards K's comments directed to his bench I just don't get it. It doesn't match with his track record to me. Anyway it's not my preferred manner to motivate people but what do I know?

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 09:01 AM
According to the commentators who talked to K yesterday he thinks that Jeter is close to getting it( whatever that is). He is doing very well in practice and one good spell on the court could change it all.
As for his spell on the court yesterday I thought he did ok and wasn't the disaster everyone is making out here.
He was given the ball down low at one point but clearly fouled. After the no call he was promptly removed.
In regards K's comments directed to his bench I just don't get it. It doesn't match with his track record to me. Anyway it's not my preferred manner to motivate people but what do I know?

I thought he looked lost, but he did get fouled on his attempt.

However, K probably should have left him in longer after that to see how he responded.

Lar77
01-26-2016, 09:07 AM
They want to go where they think they will play. When Duke has 7,8,or 9 McD players on the roster, it's tough for those non McD players to commit to Duke (and tough for Duke to pass on McD caliber players for non-McD caliber players).

Thank you. We don't recruit players because they are McD AAs or sure shot pros. As K said last year, he goes after the best players who he believes can succeed at Duke. People on this board have noted that some players become McD AAs or are ranked higher because Duke is recruiting them. Some guys will pass on Duke because they want to play (or transfer, like Silent G) and emerge later as they mature.
Let's also note that Miami had upperclassmen and a few transfers in. Larranaga is a good coach. They were at home. Miami has played us hard the last few years. And who expected 6 of 12 (I think it started 4 of 6) from 3s, most of which were jacked up well behind the line. Back door cuts have been a problem for Duke teams as long as I can remember (and they are for most teams).

Our guys continue to show effort and desire for the full 40 minutes. I'm with Ima (on the other thread). It's time to show appreciation for what we have instead of acting like the whine and cheesers down the road.

Duke95
01-26-2016, 09:14 AM
It surprises me too that coach K keeps saying stuff like "we only have six guys". Isn't that a thought you keep to yourself? It does seem a little disrespectful to the guys he recruited.

It's possible he may not realize how this sounds to the public. He wouldn't intentionally "throw his bench under the bus".

I'm guessing that, in his mind, he was only thinking about Jefferson and his injury when he said that?...while the fans are looking at the bench for help.

I bet someone gets to him on it and we don't hear any more of that going forward and goes back to " we're young", "we're inexperienced" etc...not we're non-existent.

He has yet to pull a Roy and head to the locker room early and leave his team in shambles on the floor.

But yeah, I don't like the "we have 6 players" thing.

Wander
01-26-2016, 09:18 AM
Although Coach K saying we only have 6 guys is pretty lame, Duke is far from the only team that sometimes has a McDonalds All-American who isn't good in college, at least in the first year. For example, LSU's disappointing season can be largely attributed to Antonio Blakeney not living up to the hype.

Billy Dat
01-26-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: Jeter

It doesn't help "the optics" that nearly every time he is in the game, he either gets burned by being out of position of defense (last night - check), falls down when attempting to go up strong (last night - check), or commits a foul, all within 60 seconds on checking in.

That being said, I'll defend K on his non-use of Obi and Jeter because we have been in every game we have played and lost, right down to the wire. It's easy to "play guys and let them fail and figure it out", when the team has basically given up on trying to win. I can't imagine K ever being that guy, because his teams always have enough talent to compete. When Amile went down, Jeter and Obi both got looks, but not extended looks. The Utah game aside, Jeter was getting about 10-15 mpg when we played the pre-conference-detritus portion of the schedule and he was ineffectual. Since then, with the conference games starting, every game has felt like a must win because the conference schedule was so back loaded. Again, K talked a lot during Mase/Curry/Kelly senior year that with all the injuries, he was very afraid that the wheels could come off and that we'd miss the NCAAs. I guarantee he felt the same way heading into conference this year because of the nature of the schedule and he knew this first half was basically a must-win every night, I am sure he wanted to be 8-0 or 7-1 because of the real possibility, which still exists, that we'd go sub .500 on the back end and be on the bubble. He wasn't coaching for tomorrow, he was coaching as if every game was a must win, because it kind of is. Now, having lost 4 conference games, would we be in a better position if he'd played Jeter 10-15 minutes each game? It's really hard to know.

JPtheGame
01-26-2016, 09:21 AM
I know its just a fan message board, but I hate stuff like this after a loss. Miami beat us. They were better. Duke is the premier team in the league over the last 20 years. We won the national championship last year. Opponents will be fired up, and things will get chippy. Man up and take it out on them the next time we play. Complaining about lack of "class" fuels the anti-Duke / Duke fans are whiny elitists meme.

Totally disagree. Duke has been good for a long time so they should just accept it when teams act inappropriately? No way.
Respect for and from your opponent is a very basic and reasonable expectation.

kmspeaks
01-26-2016, 09:23 AM
For those complaining about the "we only have 6 guys" comment, what do you want him to say? If K thinks he only has 6 guys who can contribute right now why can't he say that? Everyone at Duke knew they were coming to play for the best coach in the country for a team that is at or near the top pretty much every year. They didn't get to that level without ever facing criticism and they're not going to get to a level where they can contribute without facing some more. It's really not the end of the world to be told you're not a good enough player right now and it's not a coaching failure or mishap to say so, it's part of K's job.

wavedukefan70s
01-26-2016, 09:27 AM
I couldnt tell you truthfully what players we have are M.D. AA players.i just know the kids that play for duke.
We are getting more experienced as the season goes along.hopefully we can learn at a faster pace than we are currently.
Losing stinks .you have to love the fight our guys show.i have yet to see the i give up body language from any player.
If we do that then i will be worried.
As long as we have the will to fight.
Everything will be fine.

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 09:39 AM
For those complaining about the "we only have 6 guys" comment, what do you want him to say?

What good leaders (which K clearly is) normally say. Something like, "I thought more than 6 of my players would be ready to play at this point in the season, I was wrong, and that's on me."

Billy Dat
01-26-2016, 09:48 AM
Losing stinks .you have to love the fight our guys show.i have yet to see the i give up body language from any player.
If we do that then i will be worried.
As long as we have the will to fight.
Everything will be fine.

I agree with this. When I think of the few disappointing seasons (an extremely relative term when it comes to the program) since I became a fan, I tend to focus on teams that didn't live up to their potential. The Jabari/Rodney year is the most prominent - we had NBA talent (Jabari/Rodney), depth and skill at every position yet it never came together. This year, while we can continue the chicken/egg debate about K developing depth (are they not good enough or is he not good at developing depth?), the on-court chemistry between the "only 6" is good and we can't argue about effort and desire. These guys are playing their hearts out. If they can somehow keep that fire stoked, get Amile back, and scrape together enough Ws to get into the big dance, it will be something to cheer about. If they manage it, I am not sure what they'll have left in the tank - visions of the punch drunk 2007 team in March come to mind - but that, to me, is the new goal for the year - make the NCAAs and try and play spoiler. Everything else is gravy. That new outlook is based on the fact that half of our remaining games are against teams in the KenPom top 8. Also, even with last night, our offense is still ranked #2 in the country.

sagegrouse
01-26-2016, 09:49 AM
What good leaders (which K clearly is) normally say. Something like, "I thought more than 6 of my players would be ready to play at this point in the season, I was wrong, and that's on me."

Maybe, maybe, if he is reporting to a superior officer in private (White or Brodhead), but not in a public statement, all of which reflect on Duke and the program. K has been using tried-and-true training methods all year, and this is what we have. So, we'll play with the players who can contribute.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 09:49 AM
I agree with this. When I think of the few disappointing seasons (an extremely relative term when it comes to the program) since I became a fan, I tend to focus on teams that didn't live up to their potential. The Jabari/Rodney year is the most prominent - we had NBA talent (Jabari/Rodney), depth and skill at every position yet it never came together. This year, while we can continue the chicken/egg debate about K developing depth (are they not good enough or is he not good at developing depth?), the on-court chemistry between the "only 6" is good and we can't argue about effort and desire. These guys are playing their hearts out. If they can somehow keep that fire stoked, get Amile back, and scrape together enough Ws to get into the big dance, it will be something to cheer about. If they manage it, I am not sure what they'll have left in the tank - visions of the punch drunk 2007 team in March come to mind - but that, to me, is the new goal for the year - make the NCAAs and try and play spoiler. Everything else is gravy. That new outlook is based on the fact that half of our remaining games are against teams in the KenPom top 8. Also, even with last night, our offense is still ranked #2 in the country.

Keep in mind that the NCAA committee has a history of taking injuries into account when selecting teams for the tourny.

If Amile comes back and Duke manages to play well down the stretch, they could get in with a ACC record around .500.

dyedwab
01-26-2016, 09:55 AM
A couple of steps back

1) Over the course of Coach K's tenure, given that we have always recruited the most elite HS players, we have tended to prefer players who were more highly skilled to those with greater athleticism whose skills develop later - and we have a number of players in the 2nd category who haven't really worked out (Olek Czyz, Semi Olejye, Michael Gbineje, etc). Conversely, we rarely get a guy like, say, Joe Smith, an unheralded recruit with tons of raw skills who develops into a # draft pick.

2) This "problem" if it is one, doesn't get solved by recruiting non McDs AA.

3) Our issue this season isn't that. Forgetting the "who left early" issue, we are thin because 1) Amile got hurt, 2) Sean didn't develop as we had thought, 3) the light hasn't come on for Chase, and 4) Derryck hasn't been as good as we have needed him to be consistently. Thus, we essentially play Marshall, Luke, Brandon, Grayson, and Matt 30+ minutes a game - we run out of gas.

4) Sure Miami didn't have as many McD's as we do, but they do have three transfers from high major D1 schools....so there's that.

5) if we were older, our thin-ness would matter less, because veterans have been through more and know how to play tired/through adversity etc. If we were deeper, our youth would be less of a problem, because our players would be able to be inconsistent, like freshman always are, without the consequences we are experiencing.

6) As i said earlier, I think we need to appreciate the work this team is going to put in just to get into the tournament - that's not a ceiling, but it is an accomplishment in a way it rarely is for Duke under Coach K

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 09:58 AM
Maybe, maybe, if he is reporting to a superior officer in private (White or Brodhead), but not in a public statement, all of which reflect on Duke and the program. K has been using tried-and-true training methods all year, and this is what we have. So, we'll play with the players who can contribute.

IMO, in public or private statements, a leader should take accountability and responsibility for their team. Yes, "this is what we have". All I'm saying is K should take ownership for the situation. How would doing so reflect poorly on Duke and the program?

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-26-2016, 09:59 AM
I was at the game, and there was a big Duke contingent there. I feel like Miami is the new Maryland of the ACC, their fans will annoy you but in a different way. Most of them don't know much about college basketball. They are there because Miami is good this year, and because they are playing Duke. Some of my favorite comments, "We are in the bonus we should get free throws" after a player control foul on Duke. "Thats a continuation" at least 4 times. One guy asked why they couldn't advance the ball to half court after a time out. Basically any call against Miami was the most outrageous call ever made. Most of that is typical but from other away games Ive been to it seems amplified at the Bank. Other than that the students have fun, and they don't talk trash after the game. They were just really excited to beat Duke, which makes sense. A final note, right after the UM PSA message over the big screen about respecting your opponents and supporting your team in a positive manner, there was a very loud and obvious, "F you Duke" chant. I thought it was pretty hilarious.

Ok on to the game, Physicality was the problem. I could see it in every screen set and every cut made. They out toughed us in every aspect of the game. Grayson got absolutely demolished on multiple inbounds plays to the point where I was growing concerned for him. He hung tough though and I was very impressed by how he handled himself the kid is really fun to watch live.

They shot the ball really well, I commented to the girl I took to the game that we need to really watch how open we are leaving Angel. And as soon as I said that he hit three in a row. I thought that was the turning point in the game.

Then when Jeter was in, he comes in looking like he is ready. As soon as something negative happens though I watched his confidence just fade away and turn to fear almost. I don't want to call a kid scared but he sure looked like it once his shot got blocked.

Final thought is on Thornton, he just looks so young out there. Comparing him to the Miami guards was just weird to look at. They looked like grown men compared to him. Which I guess they are, but the kid held his own. I am really excited about what he will be able to do for us as he grows into his role and his body. Hes going to be really good one day.

oldnavy
01-26-2016, 10:04 AM
Maybe, maybe, if he is reporting to a superior officer in private (White or Brodhead), but not in a public statement, all of which reflect on Duke and the program. K has been using tried-and-true training methods all year, and this is what we have. So, we'll play with the players who can contribute.

I think K is just being honest when he make comments about the depth. The one thing I would bet on, is that this isn't the first time the team or the individual players have heard this. My guess is that Coach K is very direct and will tell a player the truth about his place and development and what he needs to work on to get more PT.

I personally don't have a problem with him saying things like this. I would have a bigger problem with him blowing smoke up their rear ends.

pfrduke
01-26-2016, 10:04 AM
Our offense was not crisp, but we really lost this game because we simply couldn't get a stop at the end. After cutting the lead to 5 with 5:13 to play, we did not get a single stop. Miami scored 20 points in the last 11 possessions and the only reason it wasn't 22 is because a couple people missed 1 out of 2 free throws. And most of this was not intentional fouling. We were right there with a chance to take it and just could not keep them from scoring. All told, Miami scored on 23 of 33 second half possessions. You just can't win games when the other team scores 2 out of every 3 times down the court.

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 10:05 AM
What good leaders (which K clearly is) normally say. Something like, "I thought more than 6 of my players would be ready to play at this point in the season, I was wrong, and that's on me."

lol, why would he need to randomly say that? To assure you or others that he takes responsibility? You should know already. To give a cool soundbite?

uh_no
01-26-2016, 10:07 AM
Keep in mind that the NCAA committee has a history of taking injuries into account when selecting teams for the tourny.

If Amile comes back and Duke manages to play well down the stretch, they could get in with a ACC record around .500.

the ACC is also really really good. the big east got 12/16 in one year. there's no reason the ACC won't have a huge load this year as well (seeing as it's half big east teams anyway), especially given the relative parity across the country. 9-9 acc gets it done, I think.

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 10:16 AM
lol, why would he need to randomly say that? To assure you or others that he takes responsibility? You should know already. To give a cool soundbite?

Because you do not want Obi, Jeter, or anyone else to get the false impression that they're being publicly blamed or not considered valuable members of our team. A couple more words should make that very clear to all listening/reading.

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 10:16 AM
I agree with this. When I think of the few disappointing seasons (an extremely relative term when it comes to the program) since I became a fan, I tend to focus on teams that didn't live up to their potential. The Jabari/Rodney year is the most prominent - we had NBA talent (Jabari/Rodney), depth and skill at every position yet it never came together. This year, while we can continue the chicken/egg debate about K developing depth (are they not good enough or is he not good at developing depth?), the on-court chemistry between the "only 6" is good and we can't argue about effort and desire. These guys are playing their hearts out. If they can somehow keep that fire stoked, get Amile back, and scrape together enough Ws to get into the big dance, it will be something to cheer about. If they manage it, I am not sure what they'll have left in the tank - visions of the punch drunk 2007 team in March come to mind - but that, to me, is the new goal for the year - make the NCAAs and try and play spoiler. Everything else is gravy. That new outlook is based on the fact that half of our remaining games are against teams in the KenPom top 8. Also, even with last night, our offense is still ranked #2 in the country.

This team is actually pretty enjoyable / likable for being 15-6.

As for making the tournament, we are still in good shape. (Although missing the tourney is, of course, possible). The thing about the schedule strength increasing is that it's a double-edged sword. You get an opportunity to lose, but you also get an opportunity to boost your NCAA resume with meaningful wins. From that standpoint, I do not look upon the schedule stiffening with dread.

Over the final 10 ACC games, Duke will still be favored in 7 or 8 of the contests by Kenpom / Vegas. (Some games, I imagine we'll only be slight favorites [Louisville at home, UNC at home], but the point is the task is manageable.)

Wander
01-26-2016, 10:18 AM
the ACC is also really really good. the big east got 12/16 in one year. there's no reason the ACC won't have a huge load this year as well (seeing as it's half big east teams anyway), especially given the relative parity across the country. 9-9 acc gets it done, I think.

9-9 will certainly get it done for us given that we don't have any bad non-conference losses, and a decent win or two there.

Of course, 9-9 isn't guaranteed. There were several people here admonishing those who have pointed out that Duke making it in is not a lock, and it is abundantly clear they were wrong (well, to me it was clear back then too). I'm happy to see that most people realize making the tournament is not something that Duke is entitled to. It is still more likely than not that we make it in right now (my completely non-scientific guess is something like an 85% chance at the moment), but getting in with a decent seed and winning a game will be a result that I'd be fine with.

(It also feels like a year where anyone can make the Final Four in what will be an upset-laden bracket, so there's no reason with Jefferson back we can't do better than that).

Kedsy
01-26-2016, 10:19 AM
While I certainly agree with your sentiment, that list is a bit disingenuous. Shelden Williams was a top-10 recruit who only didn't get McD's status due to the false alleged rape incident. Will Avery, Chappell, and Carrawell were top-30 recruits and Parade All-Americans who just happened to not be selected for the game. McLeod, Curry, and Jones were transfers who didn't play for Duke until their fourth (third for Curry) years, so they clearly didn't contribute as frosh for us, and the identification of their talents was done by another coach. And D Thornton and Dawkins were sure-fire McDonald's candidates who reclassified after the McD's game and skipped their senior year.

Yes, by the literal interpretation those guys were all non-McDs guys. Of course, by the literal interpretation many of those guys didn't contribute for Duke as freshmen. But the spirit of the comment is pretty clearly being violated in this list. McD's is shorthand for elite (4-5 star) recruit. Many of the non-McDs guys were still elite recruits (some moreso than actual McDs guys).

I knew you'd say something like this. So fine, let's count every player you named (S Williams, Avery, Chappell, Carrawell (who was not a top-30 recruit, but who's counting?), McLeod, Curry, Jones, D Thornton, and A Dawkins) as "McD analogs," OK? Here's what we have:

NUMBER OF McDONALD'S ALL AMERICANS PLUS "ANALOGS" ON DUKE'S ACTIVE ROSTER

1996-97: 9
1997-98: 11 (12 if you count Nate James, who got a medical redshirt after playing 6 games)
1998-99: 9
1999-00: 7
2000-01: 7
2001-02: 7
2002-03: 9
2003-04: 7 (8 if you count Michael Thompson, who transferred halfway through the season)
2004-05: 6
2005-06: 7
2006-07: 6
2007-08: 8
2008-09: 7
2009-10: 7
2010-11: 7
2011-12: 6
2012-13: 7
2013-14: 8
2014-15: 9 (including Rasheed Sulaimon)
2015-16: 8

Seventeen years out of 20 we had at least 7 such guys on our active roster (and the other three years we had 6). Eight (or nine, depending on whether you count Thompson in 2004) out of 20 we had 8 or more such guys. Since Coach K basically plays a 7-man rotation, how on Earth could a player who doesn't meet your qualifications be a significant contributor?

And yet, we still have had some contributors, including four in the past six seasons:

Jeff Capel
Greg Newton
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston

I would argue that, considering the uphill struggle to rotation minutes for someone who doesn't meet your stringent requirements, that having eight such contributors in 20 years is a lot (and certainly four in six years is a lot).

Although I would also note that Zoubek was #25 in the RSCI and Hairston was #32. I believe Mr. Capel was also a top 30 recruit. If you count those guys in the "elite" class, then we only have five non-elite contributors in 20 years. But then the list at the top gets even more top-heavy -- only one season out of 20 (2005) did we have fewer than 7 "elite" guys and in 12 (or 13) out of 20, we had 8+. For a coach who plays a seven-man rotation that would make it almost impossible for a non-elite recruit to play more than mop up minutes.

Finally, if what we're really talking about is "elite recruits," then as someone alluded upthread, what do the complainers want? We have consistently had more than enough elite recruits to fill our rotation. Thus the only possible solution is to recruit less talented players. And if somebody really wants to advocate that position, I would point out that two of the three seasons that we "only" had six guys who met your definition were 2007 and 2012. Would people be happier with that?

freshmanjs
01-26-2016, 10:19 AM
Because you do not want Obi, Jeter, or anyone else to get the false impression that they're being publicly blamed or are not valuable members of our team. A couple more words should make that very clear to all listening/reading.

Think it's obvious that he means we only have 6 guys who can contribute right now. The statement you suggested he say may not be true. I suspect that if you told Coach K before the season that Amile would be out for an extended period, he'd say we would have a rocky go of it. I doubt it's accurate to say that he thought more than 7 guys would be ready (including Amile).

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 10:21 AM
Because you do not want Obi, Jeter, or anyone else to get the false impression that they're being publicly blamed. A couple more words should make that very clear to all listening/reading.

If Coach has done his job well as a Coach / mentor / leader all season, then they wouldn't get that false impression.

It's not like their relationship with Coach K was a blank slate up until yesterday's press conference. They know where they stand.

The benefit of K saying what you want him to say is completely for internet fans.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 10:22 AM
Because you do not want Obi, Jeter, or anyone else to get the false impression that they're being publicly blamed or not considered valuable members of our team. A couple more words should make that very clear to all listening/reading.

I think that the guys who aren't playing are well aware that the results of this season aren't their faults.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-26-2016, 10:23 AM
9-9 will certainly get it done for us given that we don't have any bad non-conference losses, and a decent win or two there.

Of course, 9-9 isn't guaranteed. There were several people here admonishing those who have pointed out that Duke making it in is not a lock, and it is abundantly clear they were wrong (well, to me it was clear back then too). I'm happy to see that most people realize making the tournament is not something that Duke is entitled to. It is still more likely than not that we make it in right now (my completely non-scientific guess is something like an 85% chance at the moment), but getting in with a decent seed and winning a game will be a result that I'd be fine with.

(It also feels like a year where anyone can make the Final Four in what will be an upset-laden bracket, so there's no reason with Jefferson back we can't do better than that).

I would have figured we would be in at 9-9, but at this point in the season, we STILL don't have any wins against ranked opponents. Here's to hoping a couple of matchups with UNC change that.

Kfanarmy
01-26-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Jeter

It doesn't help "the optics" that nearly every time he is in the game, he either gets burned by being out of position of defense (last night - check), falls down when attempting to go up strong (last night - check), or commits a foul, all within 60 seconds on checking in.

...

He reminds me of a skittish fawn at this point...lost, unsteady, unbalanced, and a vegetarian amongst carnivores out on the court. You have to wonder if his nerves will let him compete against ACC talent.

On D there is one thing that is really troubling to me. When guys get beat on the perimeter, they seem to just stand there...they often neither follow the guy to the rim hoping to get the block, prevent the interior pass, or get the rebound. Time and again you could see where the next Miami pass was going to go, but no Duke players was moving there. Most of the time, even if MP3 can alter the shot and get a miss, which didn't happen much last night, there is no one else within 10' besides him and two opponents to get the rebound. Usually after the second opponent miss, the whole team shows up, uncovering three 3 pt shooters, and the opponent still gets the rebound and outlets it for a three. It is simply a mess. Go with your guy or go cover someone. Frustrating watching a Duke guard who has been beat stand there watching the ball in hopes MP3 can guard both his man and theirs, they'll both miss and the ball will fall off the rim into MP3s hands.

freshmanjs
01-26-2016, 10:25 AM
I would have figured we would be in at 9-9, but at this point in the season, we STILL don't have any wins against ranked opponents. Here's to hoping a couple of matchups with UNC change that.

We do have a win over #19 Indiana.

CDu
01-26-2016, 10:25 AM
To get this thread back on topic (and apologies for helping to derail with my two cents in the discussion about non-McD's freshmen contributors), my thoughts on the loss:

1. We lost this game on the offensive end, which is a problem. The game was 35-33 with 19:22 to go. Ten minutes later, it was 55-41 with 9:06 to go. We scored a whopping 8 points in 10 minutes. The defense wasn't great in that stretch (20 points in ten minutes isn't great). But if we score 15 or so there, we're within striking distance. As it was, they never led by less than 6 the rest of the way with the exception of one possession where we briefly cut it to 5. We lost our composure and just couldn't make baskets, and things snowballed.

2. The bench is a real concern. Coming into the season, there was heavy debate about which of the three bigs would get their minutes squeezed. Now, it turns out that Plumlee is being asked to play close to 40 minutes because the other two bigs aren't able to give even adequate backup minutes. Their lack of development (for whatever reason) has really been a problem. And it is an odd problem considering that Coach K was talking about how we had 8 starters back in November/December.

3. Larranega made postgame comments last year that completely changed our season. He explained quite openly and honestly that our defense was too predictable and that they knew exactly how to exploit it. Those comments basically saved our season in my opinion. It led to Coach K switching to zone defense and completely changing his philosophy of strictly man-to-man. And that change re-energized the team and gave us just enough mystery on the defensive end. This year, I hope he has made similarly useful constructive criticism, only this time it was about the offense. He said that our offense is based on straight-line drives, and that if you move well enough laterally you can prevent those. And to be honest, it's true. Grayson Allen, for as great as he has been this year, has been predominantly a "down-hill (i.e., straight-line)" driver. He's exceptional at it, but the two games in which he has notably struggled came against teams who had the quickness, toughness, and defensive discipline to prevent those angles (UK and UM). It's less an issue with Ingram and Kennard, but still an issue for them. I'm not sure exactly how we address that (maybe it will come in additional wrinkles of the Plumlee handoff game out high; maybe more looks to Jefferson when he returns). But hopefully it spurs adjustments to our offense to address that predictability.

4. We tried three different defenses last night: the 2-3 (our predominant look last night), a 1-3-1 (used for a possession here and there); and man-to-man (down the stretch). The 2-3 was relatively effective in the first half (unfortunately Miami hit 3s too well), but struggled some in the second half. The 1-3-1 was a toss-in and can't really be analyzed. We were forced to go man late to try to speed up Miami, and that was an unmitigated disaster. I thought Coach K's wrinkle on the 2-3 was interesting. He had the baseline wings cheat up to the elbow 3, almost in a 2-2-1. This definitely helped limit 3s, but it did leave us susceptible to backdoor lobs. And in the second half, Miami was able to pick us apart using the man at the free throw line. In short, none of the defenses worked great for any extended length of time, and combined with our offensive futility to begin the second half we just had too much to overcome.

Not much more to say, really. If Jeter and/or Obi can't give us more (or anything), then we are really going to be a limited team. Miami was clearly the better team last night, and I think will be the better team as long as Jefferson is not available. For whatever reason, a team that looked pretty deep coming into the season is now incredibly thin thanks to a single injury.

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 10:27 AM
Think it's obvious that he means we only have 6 guys who can contribute right now. The statement you suggested he say may not be true. I suspect that if you told Coach K before the season that Amile would be out for an extended period, he'd say we would have a rocky go of it. I doubt it's accurate to say that he thought more than 7 guys would be ready (including Amile).

Disagree. When has K accepted a transfer he did not expect to be able to play at ACC level, if a starter was injured? IIRC, all other K transfers ended up on an All-ACC team. I suspect, in our current situation, K thought Obi would be able to play at ACC level, for at least 10 minutes a game.

weezie
01-26-2016, 10:28 AM
I know its just a fan message board...Complaining about lack of "class" fuels the anti-Duke / Duke fans are whiny elitists meme.

What?! After all the decorating and feng shui pondering we've done in here? Really, Mr. RepoMan, sir! I am clutching my pearls and swooning over your remarks!

Carson, bring me my fan and a small drop of sherry!

Kfanarmy
01-26-2016, 10:28 AM
I would have figured we would be in at 9-9, but at this point in the season, we STILL don't have any wins against ranked opponents. Here's to hoping a couple of matchups with UNC change that.

I'm with you on that. Frankly though, I've watched them play a couple of games where they just couldn't miss against a decent opponent. UNC would likely have beaten Duke by 30 last night. Not saying their offense is better than Dukes, but they have a defense. I'm not sure they wouldn't score on every possession right now.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 10:32 AM
Disagree. When has K accepted a transfer he did not expect to be able to play at ACC level, if a starter was injured? IIRC, all other K transfers ended up on an All-ACC team. I suspect, in our current situation, K thought Obi would be able to play at ACC level, for at least 10 minutes a game.

lol

So K is supposed to be perfect and be able to predict how every single transfer he gets will perform? We've been EXTREMELY lucky with our transfer success. Think ASU wishes Eric Boateng panned out better? Or Mike Chappell at MSU? Or Michael Thompson at Northwestern? It's an inexact science that K has been VERY good at. Plus, again, Obi has apparently been limited by balky knees as per insiders on this board. Can you predict that?

It's as silly as suggesting that K should start recruiting 3 star non-McD guys and expect them all to turn into Joe Smith in their freshman year.

uh_no
01-26-2016, 10:32 AM
We do have a win over #19 Indiana.

by a gazillion.

this was one of the only games we played with a healthy amile and a post-revelation brandon.

weezie
01-26-2016, 10:32 AM
To get this thread back on topic (and apologies for helping to derail with my two cents in the discussion about non-McD's freshmen contributors), my thoughts on the loss...

Excellent CDu. Apparently I've been too generous with my reputation T-shirt gun for today but you've done a solid job in summation.

Well done.

Duke76
01-26-2016, 10:34 AM
To get this thread back on topic (and apologies for helping to derail with my two cents in the discussion about non-McD's freshmen contributors), my thoughts on the loss:

1. We lost this game on the offensive end, which is a problem. The game was 35-33 with 19:22 to go. Ten minutes later, it was 55-41 with 9:06 to go. We scored a whopping 8 points in 10 minutes. The defense wasn't great in that stretch (20 points in ten minutes isn't great). But if we score 15 or so there, we're within striking distance. As it was, they never led by less than 6 the rest of the way with the exception of one possession where we briefly cut it to 5. We lost our composure and just couldn't make baskets, and things snowballed.

2. The bench is a real concern. Coming into the season, there was heavy debate about which of the three bigs would get their minutes squeezed. Now, it turns out that Plumlee is being asked to play close to 40 minutes because the other two bigs aren't able to give even adequate backup minutes. Their lack of development (for whatever reason) has really been a problem. And it is an odd problem considering that Coach K was talking about how we had 8 starters back in November/December.

3. Larranega made postgame comments last year that completely changed our season. He explained quite openly and honestly that our defense was too predictable and that they knew exactly how to exploit it. Those comments basically saved our season in my opinion. It led to Coach K switching to zone defense and completely changing his philosophy of strictly man-to-man. And that change re-energized the team and gave us just enough mystery on the defensive end. This year, I hope he has made similarly useful constructive criticism, only this time it was about the offense. He said that our offense is based on straight-line drives, and that if you move well enough laterally you can prevent those. And to be honest, it's true. Grayson Allen, for as great as he has been this year, has been predominantly a "down-hill (i.e., straight-line)" driver. He's exceptional at it, but the two games in which he has notably struggled came against teams who had the quickness, toughness, and defensive discipline to prevent those angles (UK and UM). It's less an issue with Ingram and Kennard, but still an issue for them. I'm not sure exactly how we address that (maybe it will come in additional wrinkles of the Plumlee handoff game out high; maybe more looks to Jefferson when he returns). But hopefully it spurs adjustments to our offense to address that predictability.

4. We tried three different defenses last night: the 2-3 (our predominant look last night), a 1-3-1 (used for a possession here and there); and man-to-man (down the stretch). The 2-3 was relatively effective in the first half (unfortunately Miami hit 3s too well), but struggled some in the second half. The 1-3-1 was a toss-in and can't really be analyzed. We were forced to go man late to try to speed up Miami, and that was an unmitigated disaster. I thought Coach K's wrinkle on the 2-3 was interesting. He had the baseline wings cheat up to the elbow 3, almost in a 2-2-1. This definitely helped limit 3s, but it did leave us susceptible to backdoor lobs. And in the second half, Miami was able to pick us apart using the man at the free throw line. In short, none of the defenses worked great for any extended length of time, and combined with our offensive futility to begin the second half we just had too much to overcome.

Not much more to say, really. If Jeter and/or Obi can't give us more (or anything), then we are really going to be a limited team. Miami was clearly the better team last night, and I think will be the better team as long as Jefferson is not available. For whatever reason, a team that looked pretty deep coming into the season is now incredibly thin thanks to a single injury.

In regards to 3 above, I think he needs to get away from the play where the guard calls for a pick. If I saw it one time I saw it 30. That's all we ran in the second half...so the you know whats going to happen usually...the guy with the ball is going to try to get to the basket in the straight line...body him up and you got a good defensive stop....we don't have enough of an athletic center we can lob it to on the "pick and roll"...the offense is stale and predictable....good if we can beat the guy off the dribble bad if we can't because the alternative is to start the same play over with less time on the shot clock

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 10:35 AM
The benefit of K saying what you want him to say is completely for internet fans.

I thought there were people on this thread who did not like the statement? I was merely responding to how could K have worded it better.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 10:35 AM
I'm with you on that. Frankly though, I've watched them play a couple of games where they just couldn't miss against a decent opponent. UNC would likely have beaten Duke by 30 last night. Not saying their offense is better than Dukes, but they have a defense. I'm not sure they wouldn't score on every possession right now.

The same UNC that almost got taken out by Va Tech in Blacksburg?

UNC is good, but they're not world beaters. They're SOS is 36th according to KenPom. Duke's is 28th. They have a heavily backloaded schedule coming up, too.

There really is no college basketball team this season that could be considered far and away the *best.* There's about 10-15 that could win the title right now. It's a very deep field.

Kfanarmy
01-26-2016, 10:36 AM
...3. Larranega made postgame comments last year that completely changed our season. He explained quite openly and honestly that our defense was too predictable and that they knew exactly how to exploit it. Those comments basically saved our season in my opinion. It led to Coach K switching to zone defense and completely changing his philosophy of strictly man-to-man. And that change re-energized the team and gave us just enough mystery on the defensive end. This year, I hope he has made similarly useful constructive criticism, only this time it was about the offense. He said that our offense is based on straight-line drives, and that if you move well enough laterally you can prevent those. And to be honest, it's true. Grayson Allen, for as great as he has been this year, has been predominantly a "down-hill (i.e., straight-line)" driver. He's exceptional at it, but the two games in which he has notably struggled came against teams who had the quickness, toughness, and defensive discipline to prevent those angles (UK and UM). It's less an issue with Ingram and Kennard, but still an issue for them. I'm not sure exactly how we address that (maybe it will come in additional wrinkles of the Plumlee handoff game out high; maybe more looks to Jefferson when he returns). But hopefully it spurs adjustments to our offense to address that predictability...

Move into the interior, pass to the interior. At times over the years Duke has really struggled with this. So its pass around the perimete, drive to the basket, occasionally pass to the Center. Rarely do I see a guard cutting through the D receiving a pass. Do you?

mcdukie
01-26-2016, 10:37 AM
My two cents:

1) On the topic of McD AA's, my issue is that we only focus on them and miss out on some kids we could use that might not be McD's. Sometimes a kid gets hype early on and really by the time they are seniors in high school there are 5 kids better than them at their position. Greg Paulus is a great example. Remember what Eric Maynard did to him in the tournament and he was a kid from Carolina.
2) We just really aren't that good right now. Seth Greenberg said we simply can't guard and Miami has much more talent that we do right now. Ingram and Allen are playing at a high level but as much as I love Kennard he has been inconsistent at best as well as Matt Jones. Jones is a role player on a good team. I can't tell you he would start for Miami right now. He played last year with 3 pros and a senior experienced guard that I think will eventually be a pro. I don't want to bash him because I love all our players but he was a McD's and you mean to tell me that right now he is one of the best 3 or 4 shooting guards from his class?
3) I can't believe how thin we are . K is going to have some questions for his staff that recruited some of these kids.

Overall I don't know if we are a tournament team without Jefferson but we must be careful not to think he will fix everything. Love Duke and am still excited to see what adjustments K will make from game to game.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 10:38 AM
Move into the interior, pass to the interior. At times over the years Duke has really struggled with this. So its pass around the perimete, drive to the basket, occasionally pass to the Center. Rarely do I see a guard cutting through the D receiving a pass. Do you?

Maybe have Ingram set the screen and perform the handoff?

He's versatile enough that the defense has to respect his jumper, his drive *and* when he cuts. He's tall enough and long enough to catch and finish.

ChillinDuke
01-26-2016, 10:42 AM
No, we play six guys. We have 9 recruited players who aren't redshirting. That was the point being made: we are choosing to play just six guys. That choice may be correct as Jeter and Obi don't appear ready/able to contribute. But from an outside perspective, I can see it is hard to take the "we have 6 guys" thing seriously when the 7th and 8th guys are a McDs guy and a third year guy who averaged 11 and 9 at a midmajor as a frosh.

I understood this nuance, and so did you, and so did Coach K. This is unneeded hair splitting.

I doubt Coach K cares about correct grammar and Merriam-Webster definitions when he's talking to the press after a loss. Having 6 guys on the court last night was as near a fact as you will find in the world. To me, this is parsing and defending needlessly argumentative views.

- Chillin

Kfanarmy
01-26-2016, 10:43 AM
The same UNC that almost got taken out by Va Tech in Blacksburg?

UNC is good, but they're not world beaters. They're SOS is 36th according to KenPom. Duke's is 28th. They have a heavily backloaded schedule coming up, too.

There really is no college basketball team this season that could be considered far and away the *best.* There's about 10-15 that could win the title right now. It's a very deep field.

Look I'm hopeful, but...

I wasn't really talking about how UNC will fare with the field, rather how they would have fared against Duke last night. Duke's D was bad last night, if UNC were to shoot the ball decently against that D, I think it would get ugly fast. Yes both teams schedules are back loaded, but UNC is undefeated in ACC play, Duke has lost to every team they've played with a winning record and, Syracuse.

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 10:44 AM
lol

So K is supposed to be perfect and be able to predict how every single transfer he gets will perform? We've been EXTREMELY lucky with our transfer success. Think ASU wishes Eric Boateng panned out better? Or Mike Chappell at MSU? Or Michael Thompson at Northwestern? It's an inexact science that K has been VERY good at. Plus, again, Obi has apparently been limited by balky knees as per insiders on this board. Can you predict that?

It's as silly as suggesting that K should start recruiting 3 star non-McD guys and expect them all to turn into Joe Smith in their freshman year.

Sure, my post is silly and yours is brilliant!

I especially enjoy your consistent thought, "We've been EXTREMELY lucky... K has been VERY good at."

ChillinDuke
01-26-2016, 10:45 AM
the ACC is also really really good. the big east got 12/16 in one year. there's no reason the ACC won't have a huge load this year as well (seeing as it's half big east teams anyway), especially given the relative parity across the country. 9-9 acc gets it done, I think.

I think you're right on the bolded. But I'd add one or two will have to come against the top of the league.

- Chillin

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 10:49 AM
3. Larranega made postgame comments last year that completely changed our season. He explained quite openly and honestly that our defense was too predictable and that they knew exactly how to exploit it. Those comments basically saved our season in my opinion.

Good post, CDu, but I doubt this is true. Last season's game was not the first time Larranaga has used the pick-n-roll against Duke with success. In general, he's a heavy PNR coach and is able to recruit guys like Shane Larkin and Angel Rodriguez to execute it. Duke knew beforehand how he would attack but just couldn't execute in that game to beat it. (Later on in the season, Duke's PNR defense would become excellent.)

I think it's correct to give Coach K credit for adapting last season. Playing the zone bought us some time to fix the m2m. Another major adjustment happened before the season even started when he ditched the hedge for the ice. But I doubt any of it had to do with postgame comments from Larranaga. I wouldn't be shocked if Coach K never even heard about them.

CDu
01-26-2016, 10:49 AM
And yet, we still have had some contributors, including four in the past six seasons:

Jeff Capel
Greg Newton
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston

I would argue that, considering the uphill struggle to rotation minutes for someone who doesn't meet your stringent requirements, that having eight such contributors in 20 years is a lot (and certainly four in six years is a lot).

Although I would also note that Zoubek was #25 in the RSCI and Hairston was #32. I believe Mr. Capel was also a top 30 recruit. If you count those guys in the "elite" class, then we only have five non-elite contributors in 20 years. But then the list at the top gets even more top-heavy -- only one season out of 20 (2005) did we have fewer than 7 "elite" guys and in 12 (or 13) out of 20, we had 8+. For a coach who plays a seven-man rotation that would make it almost impossible for a non-elite recruit to play more than mop up minutes.

Finally, if what we're really talking about is "elite recruits," then as someone alluded upthread, what do the complainers want? We have consistently had more than enough elite recruits to fill our rotation. Thus the only possible solution is to recruit less talented players. And if somebody really wants to advocate that position, I would point out that two of the three seasons that we "only" had six guys who met your definition were 2007 and 2012. Would people be happier with that?

First, Carrawell was absolutely a top-tier recruit. He dropped off his senior year because of two separated shoulders. But as a junior he was heavily recruited. And he was still a Parade All-American. So, yeah, I'd lump him in with the top-tier guys.

And again, you're looking at career production, when the poster was referring to freshmen. Among those non-elite recruits who contributed, none contributed as freshmen. McClure played some, as a soph and senior, but never very well. Thornton played 337 minutes as a frosh, and only because Irving was out for most of the year. And he was pretty bad. He eventually developed into a not-completely-intolerable player, but not a major contributor. Newton played 115 minutes as a frosh and only 285 as a sophomore. Melchionni played just 218 minutes total in his first two years at Duke, and he was never more than a low-end role player at that. So none of your examples meet the criteria requested. Heck, even allowing for those non-elite guys to be counted at ANY time in their careers, only one of those four met the criteria of making a big impact at any point (Plumlee as a senior and occasionally as a soph and junior). The other three were minutes filler guys, and as you said they were minutes filler usually on our not-so-great teams.

Now, as I said, I agree with your sentiment. Just not your data. You know full well you were using crappy data to support your argument, and totally unnecessarily so. The argument you should be making (and you did make before going off on the unnecessary tangent) is that there isn't generally room for a non-elite recruit to play a big role. As such, the non-elite recruits most likely to make an impact (and certainly those who could make an impact as freshmen, as the poster referenced) are not likely to choose to come to Duke. So it is going to be hard to find those diamonds in the rough. And, as you and I have both said, we'd rather keep landing the elite guys than not. This season just happens to be the (perhaps only) downside of only going the elite guys: they frequently leave early and you can suffer a lull year (especially with any injuries).

The real problem with this team is that a couple of the freshmen (Jeter and to a lesser degree Thornton) aren't as ready to fill their intended roles as hoped, and our veteran transfer just hasn't been good enough to supplement for Jeter. So, as I said, I agree that complaining that we aren't recruiting and developing non-elite recruits into impact players is a silly viewpoint. But you don't have to misrepresent the facts to prove that point. That's all I was trying to say.

CDu
01-26-2016, 10:53 AM
Good post, CDu, but I doubt this is true. Last season's game was not the first time Larranaga has used the pick-n-roll against Duke with success. In general, he's a heavy PNR coach and is able to recruit guys like Shane Larkin and Angel Rodriguez to execute it. Duke knew beforehand how he would attack but just couldn't execute in that game to beat it. (Later on in the season, Duke's PNR defense would become excellent.)

I think it's correct to give Coach K credit for adapting last season. Playing the zone bought us some time to fix the m2m. Another major adjustment happened before the season even started when he ditched the hedge for the ice. But I doubt any of it had to do with postgame comments from Larranaga. I wouldn't be shocked if Coach K never even heard about them.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was the first time Larranaga used that strategy. I was saying it was the first time Larranaga openly explained to the media the strategy he used to beat Duke. And it was IMMEDIATELY after that game that Coach K made the changes.

I certainly give Coach K credit for adapting. But I definitely think Larranaga's comments helped fuel the fire that led to the change. And I'm quite sure he heard about those comments. If he hadn't, frankly I'd question what he was thinking in not trying to explore every angle to gain intel as to why we got so badly beaten.

FerryFor50
01-26-2016, 10:55 AM
Sure, my post is silly and yours is brilliant!

I especially enjoy your consistent thought, "We've been EXTREMELY lucky... K has been VERY good at."

Ok. Then K has been EXTREMELY lucky. Is that better?

uh_no
01-26-2016, 10:58 AM
I think you're right on the bolded. But I'd add one or two will have to come against the top of the league.

- Chillin

we've had ample opportunities, and have come close. we still have loads of games to go.

szstark
01-26-2016, 11:00 AM
I'm having problems taking this particular discussion seriously, but I'll try.

First of all, in the past 20 years, Duke has had six (6) or more McDonald's All Americans on the roster 17 times (every season in the range except 2005 (5); 2011 (5); and 2012 (4)). So any non-McD player would presumably be at best the 7th guy -- and half the time the 8th or 9th or even 10th guy -- in a 7-man rotation.

How much do you expect the 7th or 8th guy to contribute on a team that only plays 7 or 8 guys?

Here's the 20-year list:

NUMBER OF McDONALD'S ALL AMERICANS ON DUKE'S ACTIVE ROSTER

1996-97: 6
1997-98: 7 (8 if you count Nate James, who got a medical redshirt after playing 6 games)
1998-99: 7
1999-00: 6
2000-01: 7
2001-02: 6
2002-03: 7
2003-04: 6 (7 if you count Michael Thompson, who transferred halfway through the season)
2004-05: 5
2005-06: 6
2006-07: 6
2007-08: 8
2008-09: 7
2009-10: 6
2010-11: 5
2011-12: 4
2012-13: 6
2013-14: 7
2014-15: 9 (including Rasheed Sulaimon)
2015-16: 7

All that said, despite having so many McD players on the roster, the idea that none of Duke's non-McDonald AAs have contributed is completely false. Here's a list of non-McDonald's AAs in the past 20 years who contributed as at least rotation players, if not more:

Jeff Capel
Roshown McLeod
Greg Newton
Mike Chappell
Chris Carrawell
Will Avery
Dahntay Jones
Shelden Williams
Lee Melchionni
Dave McClure
Brian Zoubek
Miles Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Seth Curry
Tyler Thornton
Josh Hairston
Derryck Thornton

That's 17 guys in 20 years, almost one per season, including several very high achievers, and several guys who contributed as freshmen. In fact, those 17 non-McDs started a combined 888 games for Duke.

What more did you want?

.

Great answer to what I at first thought was a bad attempt at a joke.

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 11:02 AM
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that it was the first time Larranaga used that strategy. I was saying it was the first time Larranaga openly explained to the media the strategy he used to beat Duke. And it was IMMEDIATELY after that game that Coach K made the changes.

I certainly give Coach K credit for adapting. But I definitely think Larranaga's comments helped fuel the fire that led to the change. And I'm quite sure he heard about those comments. If he hadn't, frankly I'd question what he was thinking in not trying to explore every angle to gain intel as to why we got so badly beaten.

Duke had just lost two consecutive games. Prior to the NCSU game, Duke was playing defense well and had a defensive ranking around #15.

What was more likely to have spurred a change in strategy? Two consecutive losses + film study? Or an opposing coach's comments?

Look, I'll say that your theory is possible. I just find it unlikely.

CDu
01-26-2016, 11:04 AM
Duke had just lost two consecutive games. Prior to the NCSU game, Duke was playing defense well and had a defensive ranking around #15.

What was more likely to have spurred a change in strategy? Two consecutive losses + film study? Or an opposing coach's comments?

Look, I'll say that your theory is possible. I just find it unlikely.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree here. Obviously only Coach K and the coaching staff know for sure.

Troublemaker
01-26-2016, 11:12 AM
That's fine. We can agree to disagree here. Obviously only Coach K and the coaching staff know for sure.

Agreed.

I'll add one last thing, though. There was a game early last season against some patsy where Duke suspiciously played zone for most of the second half. That never used to happen under "man only" K.

I think the preseason switch from hedge to ice and that tinkering with zone indicate that Coach already had the mentality that he was willing and ready to adapt and use backup plans if needed. After two consecutive losses, he "broke in case of emergency" the zone out.

Jeffrey
01-26-2016, 11:14 AM
Ok. Then K has been EXTREMELY lucky. Is that better?

I would not credit K's transfer success to being "EXTREMELY lucky". IMO, K deserves some credit and it's not a matter of pure luck.

The Gordog
01-26-2016, 11:27 AM
I don't get the criticism. Are you saying we should start recruiting non-McD players instead of our consistent rosters loaded with McD players? How have those other programs been doing over the last 35 years?

No. We should start recruiting non-McD players in addition to our consistent rosters loaded with McD players. If is baffling to many of us that we have so unused scholarships year after year.


Every major program except Kansas has had bad seasons in the last decade. Kentucky, UNC, UCONN missed the tournament. Mich. St. was a 10 seed. Indiana and UCLA have had bad teams. We shouldn't be shocked that this is happening, but rather shocked that it happens so rarely for us. (Also, I think the team will rebound and end up being remembered for a good season).

Well, we should be at least as good as Kansas, and by other measures we are better (3 NCAA Championships since 2000.) So perhaps we have more ups and downs then them. I'll take it in exchange for a 3-1 NCAAT Championship ratio.

DUKIE V(A)
01-26-2016, 11:34 AM
I know its just a fan message board, but I hate stuff like this after a loss. Miami beat us. They were better. Duke is the premier team in the league over the last 20 years. We won the national championship last year. Opponents will be fired up, and things will get chippy. Man up and take it out on them the next time we play. Complaining about lack of "class" fuels the anti-Duke / Duke fans are whiny elitists meme.

Agree on the fact the Miami beat us, and they were better last night. Amile or no Amile they give us problems with their skill and style of play. I respect Miami's talent, toughness, and how they execute a game plan (at least in the games they play us). Totally understand Miami being excited to beat Duke, things getting chippy, our guys needing to get better/tougher next time, etc. That said, they have lacked class in their words and actions for at least the last two years they have beaten us. I credit them for being better and taking it to us last night and last year when they played us (in Cameron even), but there is a way to do it in an intense, passionate, hard-nosed way without all the antics and disrespect. Hopefully, we will get a chance to "man up and take it out on them" in the ACC or NCAA tournament. Go Duke!

CDu
01-26-2016, 11:44 AM
No. We should start recruiting non-McD players in addition to our consistent rosters loaded with McD players. If is baffling to many of us that we have so unused scholarships year after year.

The challenge is that recruiting is not a year-to-year thing. In most cases, you're recruiting guys for YEARS before they commit. So it is hard to know how many scholarships you'll have available. And when you're recruiting the level of talent we're recruiting, you need to err on the side of caution. And you can't always anticipate with certainly who will be there even next year. I mean, going into last season, we had the following (theoretical) roster for this season:

Tyus Jones
Rasheed Sulaimon
Grayson Allen
Matt Jones
Justise Winslow
Semi Ojeleye
Amile Jefferson
Sean Obi
Marshall Plumlee

That's 9 guys. We were heavily in on Chase Jeter, Luke Kennard, and Brandon Ingram. That's 12 guys. And we were recruiting Swanigan pretty heavily too, though we failed to get him.

We found out late in the game that Ojeleye and Sulaimon wouldn't be there this year. And it didn't become clear that Winslow and Jones would be early-entry guys until the Spring. By that point, we had to regroup. We got Thornton to commit and come early, which helped secure Ingram. We added Vrankovic late. But guys like Vrankovic were the types of guys available in the Spring.

Transfers and early entry make it really hard to project how many scholarships you have to offer year to year.


Well, we should be at least as good as Kansas, and by other measures we are better (3 NCAA Championships since 2000.) So perhaps we have more ups and downs then them. I'll take it in exchange for a 3-1 NCAAT Championship ratio.

And we are at least as good as Kansas. Heck, we're better than Kansas. We had a two-year lull in the mid-90s, but have otherwise been on-par or better than Kansas. Kansas has had the good fortune of playing in a conference that, until somewhat recently, was weaker than the ACC. So in their down years, they still managed to be in the tournament. We've done so as well, with the exception of the one year in which Coach K missed the ACC schedule.

But for reference, over the 19 full years since Duke last missed the tournament, we are 557-118 and Kansas is 557-123.

superdave
01-26-2016, 12:02 PM
3. Larranega made postgame comments last year that completely changed our season. He explained quite openly and honestly that our defense was too predictable and that they knew exactly how to exploit it. Those comments basically saved our season in my opinion. It led to Coach K switching to zone defense and completely changing his philosophy of strictly man-to-man. And that change re-energized the team and gave us just enough mystery on the defensive end. This year, I hope he has made similarly useful constructive criticism, only this time it was about the offense. He said that our offense is based on straight-line drives, and that if you move well enough laterally you can prevent those. And to be honest, it's true. Grayson Allen, for as great as he has been this year, has been predominantly a "down-hill (i.e., straight-line)" driver. He's exceptional at it, but the two games in which he has notably struggled came against teams who had the quickness, toughness, and defensive discipline to prevent those angles (UK and UM). It's less an issue with Ingram and Kennard, but still an issue for them. I'm not sure exactly how we address that (maybe it will come in additional wrinkles of the Plumlee handoff game out high; maybe more looks to Jefferson when he returns). But hopefully it spurs adjustments to our offense to address that predictability.


This a good observation of Larranega's observations. Did I say that right?

I think our offensive wrinkles would have been added by now had Amile not gotten injured and we had the luxury to work on it in practice. Woe is us, right?

One wrinkle we have added is posting Marshall on the baseline for dumpoff passes. That has worked well and helps to both open the lane up by keeping Marshall back some and to provide Marshall the ball where he can catch and dunk (rather than have to make a move).

A few ideas for other offensive wrinkles:

Have Marshall screen for Brandon on the opposite block from the ball, then Brandon uses the screen and catches a pass immediately for a quick shot or dunk. I think we ran that for Singler on occasion.

Have Brandon, Grayson, Luke run flex cuts in the lane. They can come from the baseline to the foul line off a screen or double screen, then curl back down the middle of the lane for a catch and shoot or catch and drive opportunity. This would essentially get them into the lane off a pick/pass rather than dribble drive. Marshall could still be there for a dropoff pass.

Run like heck! We have backcourt depth, so let's push the pace and get transition buckets whenever we can!

Last night vs Miami, we kinda looked at their defense and scratched our heads. You could that we werent getting drives, and they were closing out on shooters well, so we didnt know what to do. It became a lot of either dribble handoffs on the perimeter or one on one plays. Our 8 assists showed how predictable our offense was.

Hopefully we can add more wrinkles and some creativity. Short of that, I do think speeding up the game will give us easier buckets when and if the halfcourt offense stalls out. We didnt have open shooters last night, but we could have gotten open threes on the secondary break had we focused on that.

Billy Dat
01-26-2016, 12:02 PM
Transfers and early entry make it really hard to project how many scholarships you have to offer year to year.

As we've discussed in these hallowed halls many times, transfers are the newest recruiting frontier and last night we got burned by lots of them - both Rodriguez and McClellan among others. Obi hasn't panned out quite like we hoped, but that's how you fill in rosters these days, with kids looking for a greener pasture. I think the conservative estimate is that 15% of D1 players transfer.

CDu
01-26-2016, 12:13 PM
As we've discussed in these hallowed halls many times, transfers are the newest recruiting frontier and last night we got burned by lots of them - both Rodriguez and McClellan among others. Obi hasn't panned out quite like we hoped, but that's how you fill in rosters these days, with kids looking for a greener pasture. I think the conservative estimate is that 15% of D1 players transfer.

Yeah, but even the transfer market is complicated. You don't get the transfer eligible for a full year later. Sometimes you can determine your need. For example, in theory that worked with Obi. Had he panned out as hoped, he might have become the starting center this year (or at the very least he'd be a Plumlee-like backup for Plumlee).

But there is risk to adding transfers: bringing in a transfer may signal to current guys that they are being usurped. In the case of Plumlee, this was perhaps a lower risk given his brothers were Dukies (and it turned out Obi isn't as good as Plumlee). But one could certainly see a situation where the 4th-year junior, after playing sparingly for 3 years and having redshirted, could decide to do the "grad transfer" thing rather than compete for minutes with a transfer.

All of this is to say that there is clearly some learning and adjusting to be done to the new era of recruiting. Maybe it means getting more heavily involved in the grad transfer market (that's a smaller market for sure, but there can be talent to be had there). In fact, that's almost certainly the right answer. In years where you have clear deficiencies (like this year at PG for example) maybe you scour that grad market. They are one-year players anyway and not available until the summer anyway, so it's a minimal-harm opportunity to bolster your roster.

kmspeaks
01-26-2016, 12:16 PM
This a good observation of Larranega's observations. Did I say that right?

I think our offensive wrinkles would have been added by now had Amile not gotten injured and we had the luxury to work on it in practice. Woe is us, right?

One wrinkle we have added is posting Marshall on the baseline for dumpoff passes. That has worked well and helps to both open the lane up by keeping Marshall back some and to provide Marshall the ball where he can catch and dunk (rather than have to make a move).

A few ideas for other offensive wrinkles:

Have Marshall screen for Brandon on the opposite block from the ball, then Brandon uses the screen and catches a pass immediately for a quick shot or dunk. I think we ran that for Singler on occasion.

Have Brandon, Grayson, Luke run flex cuts in the lane. They can come from the baseline to the foul line off a screen or double screen, then curl back down the middle of the lane for a catch and shoot or catch and drive opportunity. This would essentially get them into the lane off a pick/pass rather than dribble drive. Marshall could still be there for a dropoff pass.

Run like heck! We have backcourt depth, so let's push the pace and get transition buckets whenever we can!

Last night vs Miami, we kinda looked at their defense and scratched our heads. You could that we werent getting drives, and they were closing out on shooters well, so we didnt know what to do. It became a lot of either dribble handoffs on the perimeter or one on one plays. Our 8 assists showed how predictable our offense was.

Hopefully we can add more wrinkles and some creativity. Short of that, I do think speeding up the game will give us easier buckets when and if the halfcourt offense stalls out. We didnt have open shooters last night, but we could have gotten open threes on the secondary break had we focused on that.

If I'm not mistaken I think we've run this for Luke a couple times but I would love to see more of it with all three of them. Davidson shredded UVA with this play in the first half of their game last year, getting jump shots or runners from 3-10 feet and dump offs to the big underneath. Virginia's adjustment was to get physical with cutters which should not be possible this year and could lead to more free throws if anybody wanted to try it.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-26-2016, 12:17 PM
Run like heck! We have backcourt depth, so let's push the pace and get transition buckets whenever we can!



Look, we had a few nice transition buckets against State, but to suggest we have "backcourt depth" simply because our one bench player is a backcourt player is a touch disingenuous.

I love to see us get out and run, but I simply don't see enough bodies to do that for a substantial part of the game.

ChicagoCrazy84
01-26-2016, 02:43 PM
Yeah, but even the transfer market is complicated. You don't get the transfer eligible for a full year later. Sometimes you can determine your need. For example, in theory that worked with Obi. Had he panned out as hoped, he might have become the starting center this year (or at the very least he'd be a Plumlee-like backup for Plumlee).

But there is risk to adding transfers: bringing in a transfer may signal to current guys that they are being usurped. In the case of Plumlee, this was perhaps a lower risk given his brothers were Dukies (and it turned out Obi isn't as good as Plumlee). But one could certainly see a situation where the 4th-year junior, after playing sparingly for 3 years and having redshirted, could decide to do the "grad transfer" thing rather than compete for minutes with a transfer.

All of this is to say that there is clearly some learning and adjusting to be done to the new era of recruiting. Maybe it means getting more heavily involved in the grad transfer market (that's a smaller market for sure, but there can be talent to be had there). In fact, that's almost certainly the right answer. In years where you have clear deficiencies (like this year at PG for example) maybe you scour that grad market. They are one-year players anyway and not available until the summer anyway, so it's a minimal-harm opportunity to bolster your roster.

I'm extremely surprised and somewhat upset we didn't try the grad transfer route at PG after Tyus declared and we started going after Derryck. Obviously you're never 100% sure but asking a kid to reclassify a year early and having him as you're only true PG is putting yourself in a difficult position. I look at Oregon who had a good young PG on their roster in Casey Benson, a 4-star recruit signed in Kendall Small, and they STILL brought in a grad-transfer PG in Dylan Ennis. He got hurt early and hasn't been able to play, but it's a good example.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-26-2016, 03:18 PM
Perhaps because they mostly recruit McDonald AAs.I seem to remember Duke winning a National Championship last year. Historically, Duke has found a way to overcome their non contributing, non McDonald AAs.

Unfortunately, I think Duke leads the nation in recruiting McD AAs whose performance in college is disappointing. Coach K and his coaching staff are great recruiters, but the more McDs you recruit, the more likely you are to be disappointed. The jump from HS to the college level is difficult, and it's not uncommon to overestimate how good some of these guys will be when it's time to actually play.

devildeac
01-26-2016, 03:40 PM
It has to be very frustrating for Brandon and Grayson to be getting so few calls in the lane. I think the issue with Grayson is that sometimes it looks like he's driving *only* to create contact and draw a foul. I think sometimes refs decide not to blow the whistle if they think a player is just looking for a whistle.

Miami really made driving difficult and they were still quick enough to get out on our shooters. We had very few assists and started to look very stagnant with a bunch of desperate drives. But I was proud of the way the guys kept fighting.

I'll take a lot of my tone/stance/attitude/beliefs/conclusions from the way K acts/behaves/speaks to the media. It might be easy to get down on this team but it appears they are busting their arses out there and if K is quoted as below, then I'm still all in on these guys:

“We lost, but our kids weren’t out-competed,” Krzyzewski said. “I always tell my guys, you play your butts off, compete, and I’m good. So I’m good. I’m good.”

Billy Dat
01-26-2016, 03:44 PM
I'm extremely surprised and somewhat upset we didn't try the grad transfer route at PG after Tyus declared and we started going after Derryck. Obviously you're never 100% sure but asking a kid to reclassify a year early and having him as you're only true PG is putting yourself in a difficult position. I look at Oregon who had a good young PG on their roster in Casey Benson, a 4-star recruit signed in Kendall Small, and they STILL brought in a grad-transfer PG in Dylan Ennis. He got hurt early and hasn't been able to play, but it's a good example.

We were heavily involved with Ennis until Derryck signed. For all the back and forth about wanting Jeter to get minutes so he can learn on the job, we should be happy that Derryck is being allowed to do just that. Granted, his minutes aren't huge, but he'll start next season far ahead of where he started this season, and we will need that because last time I checked none of our stud recruits are PGs, but Matt Jones has been known to play one on TV.

devildeac
01-26-2016, 03:46 PM
According to the commentators who talked to K yesterday he thinks that Jeter is close to getting it( whatever that is). He is doing very well in practice and one good spell on the court could change it all.
As for his spell on the court yesterday I thought he did ok and wasn't the disaster everyone is making out here.
He was given the ball down low at one point but clearly fouled. After the no call he was promptly removed.
In regards K's comments directed to his bench I just don't get it. It doesn't match with his track record to me. Anyway it's not my preferred manner to motivate people but what do I know?

Glad to see someone else noted (along with a bunch in chat last pm) that Jeter was hammered on his dunk attempt and the crew swallowed their whistles. Sorry he exited so soon but if K was quoted today as saying Jeter was "close," then I can't wait for him to prove it on the court. Painful watching the freshman mature and glad to see Ingram and Kennard are contributing well after rough starts. It'll give us all happy faces when we see Thornton and Jeter "get it" and become more consistent, meaningful contributors, whether it be this season or next.

Listen to Quants
01-26-2016, 03:48 PM
Credit to Miami for playing an excellent game. In the strength-on-strength battle, their defense defeated our offense, as Miami was able to both defend the drive well AND close out on the threes well. It's probably true that most officiating crews will call things tighter, which would've given our offense a better chance, BUT every now and then you will run into an officiating crew that doesn't give you those calls. (With the freedom of movement emphasis, they will just appear less frequently.)

Indeed. Upthread someone commented that Plumlee didn't get the easy, mostly unchallenged, stuff at the rim. Even when the defender on Plumlee went to stop penetration Miami seemed to rotate defensively very fluidly. Should make a Miami fan proud. They currently are 8, 9 and 10th nationally on the BPI, KenPom, and Sagarin ratings. A very high quality outfit. At home. Duke without Jefferson. Not you, but some other posters need to R-E-L-A-X. It was an interesting game.

Indoor66
01-26-2016, 04:17 PM
Look, we had a few nice transition buckets against State, but to suggest we have "backcourt depth" simply because our one bench player is a backcourt player is a touch disingenuous.

I love to see us get out and run, but I simply don't see enough bodies to do that for a substantial part of the game.

Also, when you push and run the other three guys have to run the court as well and we ain't got no backups there....:(:cool:

Rudy
01-26-2016, 05:01 PM
For several years I've said Tom Izzo was my second favorite college coach, because his teams seemed (more than most) always to be better at the end of the season than the first half and he shows a lot of class. Larranaga is fast taking over as my second favorite, though. I started following him when he was at George Mason, even before their final four run, because Mason is just 5 miles down the road from me. He's funny, knowledgable about basketball and relates to and motivates his players. As the t.v. note said after that game, he is 4-2 against Duke since he's been at Miami.

Saratoga2
01-26-2016, 05:01 PM
It surprises me too that coach K keeps saying stuff like "we only have six guys". Isn't that a thought you keep to yourself? It does seem a little disrespectful to the guys he recruited.

It's possible he may not realize how this sounds to the public. He wouldn't intentionally "throw his bench under the bus".

I'm guessing that, in his mind, he was only thinking about Jefferson and his injury when he said that?...while the fans are looking at the bench for help.

I bet someone gets to him on it and we don't hear any more of that going forward and goes back to " we're young", "we're inexperienced" etc...not we're non-existent.

Wheat

I totally agree with these thoughts. The kids who are recruits of the coaching staff are good players, just not as good as the top six or seven and it has to be seen as a negative by them.

CDu
01-26-2016, 05:23 PM
Wheat

I totally agree with these thoughts. The kids who are recruits of the coaching staff are good players, just not as good as the top six or seven and it has to be seen as a negative by them.

As someone who frequently disagrees with Wheat, I agree with him here. It was not a good look by Coach K. Certainly not the way he meant it, but it certainly wasn't the best way to say what he was trying to say.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-26-2016, 06:17 PM
Just a comment:

Offensively, Coach K encourages and depends on his players to individually create, to beat their man with the ball off the dribble. Of course Duke screens, but they are often soft screens with lots of motion. There's a lot of freedom given to the players from K to attack when a player feels he has an advantage and can turn a corner off the dribble. It's a more fluid and aggressive offense than many teams.

Coaches like Roy, Izzo, Self...depend more on their team to create offense by setting multiple picks and passes...staying within the structure of the offense to run a specific play and isolate a specific match up, usually in the post as first option.

Two different styles of successful coaching.

A kid like Jeter could probably look a lot better now in a structured offense, but as he matures he may fit coach K's style and become a high quality player. We just have to give him time and see how he does. Way too early for anybody to give up on him.

gep
01-26-2016, 11:08 PM
As someone who frequently disagrees with Wheat, I agree with him here. It was not a good look by Coach K. Certainly not the way he meant it, but it certainly wasn't the best way to say what he was trying to say.

While I agree with all of you that Coach K didn't "look good" with that comment, I just gotta believe that the team (all of them) understands where they stand, and what Coach K means when he says such things. Even going back to last year to some extent, he very clearly said "eight is enough", even though there were 11 players on the "team". I thought it was interesting then... kinda like saying the walk-ons and redshirt transfer don't matter and are not part of the "team". I don't think anyone had a second thought about that comment...:confused: (of course, they were walk-ons and a redshirt transfer, but still... they most definitely did their part... practice, support, etc)

jv001
01-27-2016, 05:57 AM
I had to ask myself, what would I have thought if old roy had made that comment? I think you know the answer to that question :cool:. So, while I think I know what Coach K meant, I still think he could have worded it differently. GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2016, 06:57 AM
Not sure why everyone is fixated on K's comments postgame. Did we freak out last year when he said "eight is enough?" It is an accurate description of the team right now.

If I cooked a meatloaf and was asked to defend why it wasn't very good and I said "well, I was snowed in and used everything I had," would you jump down my throat and say "not true - how does the cottage cheese feel about being ignored??"

That is possibly my biggest stretch of a metaphor, but you get the idea. K is using 6 guys right now. If he thought he had 8 guys who could reliably contribute, there's no question he would dig deeper. It was a passing comment, and people are treating it like he said "well, half my bench is paperweights who are clearly huge disappointments to the program."

Come on folks, this is D1 sports, not church league.

CDu
01-27-2016, 07:01 AM
O
While I agree with all of you that Coach K didn't "look good" with that comment, I just gotta believe that the team (all of them) understands where they stand, and what Coach K means when he says such things. Even going back to last year to some extent, he very clearly said "eight is enough", even though there were 11 players on the "team". I thought it was interesting then... kinda like saying the walk-ons and redshirt transfer don't matter and are not part of the "team". I don't think anyone had a second thought about that comment...:confused: (of course, they were walk-ons and a redshirt transfer, but still... they most definitely did their part... practice, support, etc)

The glaring difference between last year and this year is this: the walk-ons are understood by everyone to not be in-game players, and the transfer wasn't eligible. So we quite literally had only 8 recruited players available. This year we have three scholarship recruits available. And they aren't garbage in principle: one is a McDonald's All-American and a third-year transfer who was really productive as a frosh at a midmajor that he is excluding (and that is ignoring Vrank). I don't think Jeter or Obi (and probably not Vrank) would appreciate being considered on par with unrecruited walk-ons who would not otherwise be D-1 players.

CDu
01-27-2016, 07:03 AM
I had to ask myself, what would I have thought if old roy had made that comment? I think you know the answer to that question :cool:. So, while I think I know what Coach K meant, I still think he could have worded it differently. GoDuke!

Exactly. This is the issue. Do I think it is a huge deal? No. Do I think it was bad form and a very poor choice of words? Absolutely.

sagegrouse
01-27-2016, 07:39 AM
Exactly. This is the issue. Do I think it is a huge deal? No. Do I think it was bad form and a very poor choice of words? Absolutely.

Not be a toady or anything, but it was a riposte to chants by the Miami fans -- a charming and sportsmanlike group if there ever was one -- NOT! Please don't elevate this to a statement about the Duke program or the players on the bench.

Kindly,
Sage

pfrduke
01-27-2016, 07:40 AM
Not sure why everyone is fixated on K's comments postgame. Did we freak out last year when he said "eight is enough?" It is an accurate description of the team right now.

If I cooked a meatloaf and was asked to defend why it wasn't very good and I said "well, I was snowed in and used everything I had," would you jump down my throat and say "not true - how does the cottage cheese feel about being ignored??"

That is possibly my biggest stretch of a metaphor, but you get the idea. K is using 6 guys right now. If he thought he had 8 guys who could reliably contribute, there's no question he would dig deeper. It was a passing comment, and people are treating it like he said "well, half my bench is paperweights who are clearly huge disappointments to the program."

Come on folks, this is D1 sports, not church league.

Perhaps more to the point, does anyone think this was a surprise to the guys who aren't in the 6-man rotation? I mean, they're sitting on the bench for 40 minutes (or close to) every game - I think they know where they stand.

oldnavy
01-27-2016, 08:02 AM
Perhaps more to the point, does anyone think this was a surprise to the guys who aren't in the 6-man rotation? I mean, they're sitting on the bench for 40 minutes (or close to) every game - I think they know where they stand.

My sentiments exactly. I am sure that Obi and Jeter and the rest have been made well aware of their roles and what they need to do to change them. I think the fans are probably struggling more with this comment than the players are. My guess would be that this is a very mild version of what they have been told in practice many, many times before.

Coach K isn't really making news here, he is just verbalizing what anyone who has been watching knows already, he only has 6 players that are ready to contribute at the ACC level.

Did it become a bigger deal because he said what we could see for ourselves?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2016, 08:09 AM
My sentiments exactly. I am sure that Obi and Jeter and the rest have been made well aware of their roles and what they need to do to change them. I think the fans are probably struggling more with this comment than the players are. My guess would be that this is a very mild version of what they have been told in practice many, many times before.

Coach K isn't really making news here, he is just verbalizing what anyone who has been watching knows already, he only has 6 players that are ready to contribute at the ACC level.

Did it become a bigger deal because he said what we could see for ourselves?

It became a bigger deal because of our record in the last several games. In the middle of a ten game win streak, this sentence does't get parsed to death.

Indoor66
01-27-2016, 08:16 AM
It became a bigger deal because of our record in the last several games. In the middle of a ten game win streak, this sentence does't get parsed to death.

Sometimes the highlighted is a problem on this board. Must be a bunch of psych majors here. :rolleyes:

RepoMan
01-27-2016, 08:33 AM
Not sure why everyone is fixated on K's comments postgame. Did we freak out last year when he said "eight is enough?" It is an accurate description of the team right now.

If I cooked a meatloaf and was asked to defend why it wasn't very good and I said "well, I was snowed in and used everything I had," would you jump down my throat and say "not true - how does the cottage cheese feel about being ignored??"


Chase Jeter: "Wait a minute . . . I know I am not having a great season . . . but now I am cottage cheese?!"

Entertaining analogy aside, count me on this side of the aisle. As the rotation demonstrates, right now we have only 6 guys who are playing in games. Who is offended by this statement? Jeter, Obi, Vrank? I mean, they know just as well as the rest of us that, right now, they aren't playing well enough to get and stay on the court. I am sorry, but we live in an increasingly namby pamby world. There is nothing wrong with speaking the truth, and hearing the truth, even when you might wish the truth was otherwise.

Sir Stealth
01-27-2016, 09:21 AM
Not sure why everyone is fixated on K's comments postgame. Did we freak out last year when he said "eight is enough?" It is an accurate description of the team right now.



Personally, I was never a fan of "eight is enough." It just goes against the concept of a united team. Yeah, this is high level basketball and we don't worry about feelings getting hurt, but the concept still feels like it's against the Duke principles of a united, family atmosphere in the program. There may have only been eight guys who played, but it took everyone to prepare them to reach that level of excellence. Maybe I'm not remembering that K has always gone with this philosophy of highlighting exactly who the important members of the team are, but it seems like it's been on the increase as K ages into an older statesman more likely to just want to "keep it real." And yes, I'm aware that we still managed to win a national championship while trumpeting this philosophy (and I haven't given up on the ceiling for this year and the "we only have []" slogan either).

Saratoga2
01-27-2016, 11:42 AM
Chase Jeter: "Wait a minute . . . I know I am not having a great season . . . but now I am cottage cheese?!"

Entertaining analogy aside, count me on this side of the aisle. As the rotation demonstrates, right now we have only 6 guys who are playing in games. Who is offended by this statement? Jeter, Obi, Vrank? I mean, they know just as well as the rest of us that, right now, they aren't playing well enough to get and stay on the court. I am sorry, but we live in an increasingly namby pamby world. There is nothing wrong with speaking the truth, and hearing the truth, even when you might wish the truth was otherwise.

This is a world where people still have options and can make choices. Vrank, Obi and Jeter have been told they aren't good players, which may be far different than their perceptions of themselves. They have the option of leaving the program for another school where they may be valued more highly. I hope people aren't saying good riddance because these are our guys and from what I can tell are upstanding young men with enough talent to have been recruited by Duke.

Troublemaker
01-27-2016, 11:52 AM
This is a world where people still have options and can make choices. Vrank, Obi and Jeter have been told they aren't good players, which may be far different than their perceptions of themselves. They have the option of leaving the program for another school where they may be valued more highly. I hope people aren't saying good riddance because these are our guys and from what I can tell are upstanding young men with enough talent to have been recruited by Duke.

So melodramatic!

Steven43
01-27-2016, 12:15 PM
This was brought up before when discussing Jeter. However, when you look at 2015's top-25 recruits - almost all of them are pretty good or at least contributing. There's a chance Jeter was simply a miss by the majority of those involved in college basketball. If so, he isn't the first and certainly wont be the last.

Casey Sanders come to mind? Not really the same type of player, but they might end up having similar careers at Duke.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-27-2016, 12:19 PM
This is a world where people still have options and can make choices. Vrank, Obi and Jeter have been told they aren't good players, which may be far different than their perceptions of themselves. They have the option of leaving the program for another school where they may be valued more highly. I hope people aren't saying good riddance because these are our guys and from what I can tell are upstanding young men with enough talent to have been recruited by Duke.

Or, they can stay four years and hope to follow a similar arc as Amile and MP3 who improved VASTLY in four years. Or, sure, they can transfer and go somewhere easier. We all make choices in life.

Kedsy
01-27-2016, 12:30 PM
Vrank, Obi and Jeter have been told they aren't good players, which may be far different than their perceptions of themselves.

I think what they're told privately probably carries more weight. For example, from what I've heard, Antonio was told from the very beginning that the coaches expect him to go the developmental route and not play much his freshman year. If that has been his expectation, I doubt he's particularly upset now.

We've also heard that Sean has had some knee problems. If true, then I can't imagine Coach K's remark had much of an impact on him, either.

Chase may be the most interesting case. According to the announcers in the Miami game, Coach K told them Chase has lost confidence and isn't ready to contribute in ACC games, but that K thought that could change in an instant, that one good game or even one good play could be the spark that turns him into a contributor right now. Assuming he's made consistent comments to Chase then Chase should have a pretty good idea where he stands.

This whole K-comment-gate seems to me to be much ado about nothing.

azzefkram
01-27-2016, 12:56 PM
I think what they're told privately probably carries more weight. For example, from what I've heard, Antonio was told from the very beginning that the coaches expect him to go the developmental route and not play much his freshman year. If that has been his expectation, I doubt he's particularly upset now.

We've also heard that Sean has had some knee problems. If true, then I can't imagine Coach K's remark had much of an impact on him, either.

Chase may be the most interesting case. According to the announcers in the Miami game, Coach K told them Chase has lost confidence and isn't ready to contribute in ACC games, but that K thought that could change in an instant, that one good game or even one good play could be the spark that turns him into a contributor right now. Assuming he's made consistent comments to Chase then Chase should have a pretty good idea where he stands.

This whole K-comment-gate seems to me to be much ado about nothing.


Couldn't agree more. Looking back at the game logs you can see that Coach K had expectations for Chase. Unfortunately what might be happening in practice doesn't seem to translate yet during game time. I expect it will eventually. Maybe not this year but you never know.

Vrank is an interesting case. I had heard the same thing so I have to admit I was surprised when I saw him get game time. It seems an odd thing to do for a developmental player to burn a year of eligibility for a handful of minutes of game time.

As for the game, Miami is the better team at this point and I'm not sure having Amile back would have changed the outcome. Hopefully he will return sooner rather than later.

kAzE
01-27-2016, 01:42 PM
As usual, anytime we lose, everything gets over analyzed and scrutinized ad nauseam. Coach K, like any human being, makes mistakes sometimes. Does that mean he doesn't think his bench players are any good? No, he just said something that even he probably regrets. Give him a break. He should have more than enough cred with at least the fans. Just keep in mind that he's made far more good decisions than mistakes. And he knows his team better than anyone here.

Kfanarmy
01-27-2016, 01:54 PM
Not be a toady or anything, but it was a riposte to chants by the Miami fans -- a charming and sportsmanlike group if there ever was one -- NOT! Please don't elevate this to a statement about the Duke program or the players on the bench.

Kindly,
Sage

Trying to put the sound bite back into context,,,tsk tsk. When so many people can find offense, display their plumage and hope the spotlight momentarily shines on their backside?

RepoMan
01-27-2016, 02:49 PM
This is a world where people still have options and can make choices. Vrank, Obi and Jeter have been told they aren't good players, which may be far different than their perceptions of themselves.

I would be shocked if anyone told them that they aren't good players. They have been told that they are not good enough right now to play much during games. Those are two totally different things, especially with Freshman. Not everyone is ready to play big minutes from Day 1 -- that doesn't mean you suck or lazy or are a bad guy. Frankly, I hope we continue to recruit players who take time to develop. It adds to team balance; creates leadership skills (e.g., MPIII); and is simply fun to watch.

Now, they may have different opinions of their readiness to contribute right now, and that might induce them to leave, especially if they have others whispering the same thing in their ears. Or, they may have different opinions of their readiness to contribute right now, and that might induce them to work harder to prove the coach wrong. Or, they may agree with their coach's assessment, yet still be working as hard as possible to improve down the road.

I still don't have any problem with Coach K saying we only have 6 guys who are ready to contribute in games right now.

Indoor66
01-27-2016, 03:21 PM
I still don't have any problem with Coach K saying we only have 6 guys who are ready to contribute in games right now.

If he had said differently the crowd would be complaining that he did not play more players. Seems like with some here you can't win.

Olympic Fan
01-27-2016, 03:23 PM
One of K's favorite sayings is "everybody has to run their own race."

Duke has always been one of the most Darwinian programs in that it's survival of the fittest. K has never played guys major minutes just to create depth or to give kids a chance to develop on the court -- they do their developing in practice ... or they don't pay. That's been the case for 36 years and it's worked pretty well.

I agree with repoman -- nobody has told the kids mentioned that they are not good players or that they can't play. Based on 36 years of following K's program, I'm sure those kid are told why they aren't playing now and what they need to do to get on the court.

Some kids are too impatient to listen -- Michael Gbinije comes to mind. He wasn't ready to play in 2012 ... and he only became a quality player midway through last season (which would have been his senior year at Duke). Alex Murphy and Marshall Plumlee redshirted together in 2012. Neither played much in 2013 or 2014 -- Murphy quit five games into the 2014 season. Marshall stuck it out, kept working and became a key sub on a national championship team. He's now playing major minutes as Duke's starting center.

Marshall Plumlee was a McDonald's All-American who redshirted his first year at Duke and played 50 minutes in his second year and 254 minutes (about eight a game) in his third year. You can go back and find a bunch of guys who played little or nothing as freshmen and became major contributors before their career is over -- Ryan Kelly (227 minutes as a freshman) has been mentioned. Brian Zoubek (235 minutes as freshman) is another. Casey Sanders played 144 minutes as a freshman on a team that was desperately short of depth. As a soph, he started at center in the national title game. John Smith played 91 minutes as a freshman ... a year later, he was the starting center on a Sweet 16 team. Kevin Strickland played eight minutes a game as a freshman. McDonald's All-America big man Alaa Abdelnaby got 191 minutes (and he ended up a first-round NBA draft pick). Elliot Williams was buried on the bench until the first of February when he came from nowhere to the starting lineup on an ACC championship team.

And what would you have said about the McDonald's All-American last year who at this point is the season was not in the rotation -- not even getting off the bench in a number of games.

Do you think Coach K told Grayson Allen he wasn't a good player? Or do you think he told Grayson what he needed to do to get in the rotation and that Grayson worked his butt off to do what K asked?

How did that work out?

I'd be willing to bet major money that Chase Jeter evolve into a major player at Duke. Vrank has a ways to go, but we knew that when he arrived as a two-star recruit. Obi, I don't understand, unless there are more physical issue than we know. But the Obi we see now -- like the Jeter we see today -- is not ready to contribute. K obviously thinks -- and I agree with him -- that Duke is better off with any of his tired, undersized six-man rotation than any of these fresh big men.

That's true today. That doesn't mean it will be true when Duke goes to Georgia Tech next week or at ACC Tourney time or when NCAA play starts. Or maybe next year.

S_West30
01-27-2016, 08:43 PM
-I think the toughest part for us as fans is that this is a season and point in time where we have nowhere to turn. There is no magic elixir that can turn Jeter or Obi into the players we need them to be at this stage of the ACC season. If Brandon, Grayson, and even Kennard aren't firing on all cylinders and playing cohesively it's tough to expect ACC wins, let alone against top 15 teams like Miami. This is a team that was undermanned before Jefferson got hurt, and his injury has just made it exponentially tougher on everyone. All that being said, these guys play harder than any team I've seen in recent memory, not just out of necessity, but out of maturity. K instills those playing styles into the guys and you can see how it has manifested itself in the freshmen, especially Luke and Brandon. They've grown up incredibly fast, but that doesn't mean that they've made it to the point where it can change the outcomes of games for us. No matter what the record says, all of them deserve credit for sticking with it in a down season.
-Interested to know who thinks K should stick with Jones at point or if he should give Derryck another chance to take the reigns. DT certainly shows signs of greatness to come, but that comes with some boneheaded mistakes along the way (like at the end of the first half against Clemson) and in transition where he still seems to be going 100 mph without a clue of what to do with the ball. I, myself, would like to see Kennard get a chance to play some point. I think he has some really underrated passing skills that were showcased against Long Beach St. if I'm not mistaken. At this point, it couldn't hurt to at least let him give it a try.
-All in all, until Jefferson gets back I think this is going to be who they are as a team. They can stay competitive with just about anyone, but getting them over the top, especially in the second half is still a struggle. Having a closer like Tyus would've been great for this team in particular, but let's not dwell on that. It's a sight to see Brandon come into his own, his potential is off the charts and he'll certainly be missed once he leaves. Grayson compliments him incredibly well with his unparalleled driving/finishing ability and deep ball. But other than that, it's a crap-shoot on who will perform well each night. Consistency is what Amile epitomized, and without him, there just aren't enough guys to rely on for good games night in and night out. Here's to hoping K and co. can right the ship.

Let's go Duke!