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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 88, N.C. State 78 Post-Game Thread



Bob Green
01-23-2016, 04:05 PM
The losing streak is over. Discuss the game here.

SCMatt33
01-23-2016, 04:08 PM
So two eventual national champions and an undefeated #1 Duke team can't be State in Raleigh, but this team can trudge over there in a blizzard and win? This is why I never bet on sports.

OZZIE4DUKE
01-23-2016, 04:08 PM
The losing streak is over.
That says it very well! Whew! LGD GTHc!

Tripping William
01-23-2016, 04:08 PM
52 second-half points. I'll take it.

uh_no
01-23-2016, 04:10 PM
So two eventual national champions and an undefeated #1 Duke team can't be State in Raleigh, but this team can trudge over there in a blizzard and win? This is why I never bet on sports.

i was quite clear that we were going to win this game. i'm not sure why you all didn't listen :)

toughbuff1
01-23-2016, 04:11 PM
I thought we played great. Even in the first half, State seemed to have in inordinate amount of shots go in that they just kind of threw up at the basket with no time left on the shot clock. Regression to the mean in the second half. Hopefully this gives the team a much needed confidence boost.

Troublemaker
01-23-2016, 04:13 PM
Great job by Coach K and staff to construct that zone over the long break.

I liked how in the 2nd half, it even had the flexibility to morph into a "1-3-1" on the fly to take away the middle pass.

We rebounded well out of the zone and it kept us out of foul trouble for the most part.

Things are looking up!

wsb3
01-23-2016, 04:16 PM
Thank God that did not come down to a one possession game at the end. My heart could not have taken it. Most nervous I have been since the last 5 minutes of the NC game.

Huge win & for a moment the sky is not falling. I hope we look back on that run..was it 13-0? down the road as the pivotal sequence in this young teams journey.

I don't want to even think where we might be if we don't win today with the schedule that is ahead of us.

It seemed like Matt Jones had not hit a 3 in a month but drained two big ones & made clutch free throws.

Marshall is a beast & such a great team player. His development has been a wonderful thing to watch.

Okay my one negative..when we got up ten the first time & stopped them & that lazy pass by Thornton that was stolen & resulted in a lay up & his walk..Got to give Coach K props for putting him back in because I was done at that point..:)

We were nowhere near as tired down the stretch & I think that is playing so much zone & we did have a few days rest.

Brandon Ingram may be the first or second pick of the NBA draft but the best player on this team is Grayson Allen & for some crazy reason I think he is the kind of young man that gets it & may just stick around. I sure hope so. He is a pleasure to watch.

WHEW.. GOING TO HAVE A COLD ONE & UNWIND

uh_no
01-23-2016, 04:16 PM
I thought we played great. Even in the first half, State seemed to have in inordinate amount of shots go in that they just kind of threw up at the basket with no time left on the shot clock. Regression to the mean in the second half. Hopefully this gives the team a much needed confidence boost.

yeah. we missed some shots early, they hit some that they shouldn't've....but I didn't think we played that poorly overall. so many shots rattling in, well contested shots, shots at the end of the clock etc. We were still playing very tentative offense...and had a terrible half on that end....then in the second we went back to what we know we're good at...lots of grayson and ingram driving. and hey, it worked. that's the kind of thing we got away from against syracuse, and didn't "need" since ND's defense was so bad anyway (and we were killing it from 3).

we're going to have a hell of a time on monday on short rest again against a big physical miami team. on the road. I sure as heck am not guaranteeing a victory there.

wsb3
01-23-2016, 04:17 PM
52 second-half points. I'll take it.

Was it really? Wow. I had no idea. My emotions were so nuts..:)

TruBlu
01-23-2016, 04:18 PM
Losing streak is over.:)

Amile is out of his boot.:)

arnie
01-23-2016, 04:21 PM
Got to give Marshall a ton of credit. Except for last minute, thought he played entire game. Box showed Obi came in - guess I missed it. Anyway, id hate to see what this team would look like w/o Marshall.

Furniture
01-23-2016, 04:22 PM
The sky is not falling….Good win.

Props to the usual suspects.

I know DT made some mistakes but overall I think he is getting better. I think some posters need to give him some slack.

Furniture
01-23-2016, 04:23 PM
Losing streak is over.:)

Amile is out of his boot.:)

I thought Amile was moving fairly freely on the sidelines. Cant be far off?

rsvman
01-23-2016, 04:28 PM
Arnie, Obi came in for the last minute or so of the first half after Marshall picked up his second foul.

I thought we played pretty well overall. coach mixing it up with some 2-3, some 1-3-1, and early in the game what looked like a 2-2-1. also with some match-up and some token pressure to take time away from each possession.
the law of averages caught up with state, thankfully. our guys did MUCH better on the boards.
overall,a very satisfying win.

wsb3
01-23-2016, 04:31 PM
We shot 71% from the floor & 7-11 from 3 point range in the second half.

CDu
01-23-2016, 04:33 PM
This game boiled down to a tale of two halves from 3pt range. In the first half, State hit 3 more 3s than they should have (based on their season averages) in going 6-9, while we missed 3 more than we should have in going 1-10. That is an 18-point swing, just on the virtue of one team having a hot half and the other being cold. Not surprisingly, we trailed by a decent margin at the half.

Then, in the second half, the script flipped. We hit 3 more than we should have in going 9-15, while State missed two more than it should have in going 2-12. That 15 point swing back in our favor was huge. Sometimes, the game can really swing simply on aberrant outcomes over a small sample size. Today was one of those days... in both directions.

Kudos to Coach K for sticking with the zone. It was a good idea that happened to look questionable when State got hot. But rather than panicking and reverting to man, he rode it out and was rewarded by State getting cold in the second half. Gutsy call, but the right one. They just refused to go man and allow Barber to get loose. Barber is the key to that team, and the zone minimized his damage.

Great game from Allen today. I mentioned pre-game in the Phase IV thread that he disappeared a bit for long stretches in our recent losses. Well, he didn't disappear today. He was awesome out there.

Kennard simply can't buy a break. He had two threes rattle in and out today. The other four were legit misses, but he seems to have more shots go in and come back out than most. It plagued him early this year and it plagued him today. He did have some clever drives, but the key to unlocking his full potential will be for those 3s to start falling.

Ingram was his usual terrific self. One of the byproducts of the zone is that he stayed out of foul trouble. But another (especially when he plays up top) is that he is a menace in challenging shooters. I think he blocked two 3s today.

Big win for the confidence of the team. A sorely needed positive finish. Also, it was nice seeing Jefferson in tennis shoes today rather than the boot. Hopefully his return is nearing!

wsb3
01-23-2016, 04:38 PM
Kudos to Coach K for sticking with the zone. It was a good idea that happened to look questionable when State got hot. But rather than panicking and reverting to man, he rode it out and was rewarded by State getting cold in the second half. Gutsy call, but the right one. They just refused to go man and allow Barber to get loose. Barber is the key to that team, and the zone minimized his damage.

That is a great point.

Saratoga2
01-23-2016, 04:46 PM
This is a young team and doesn't know how to finish games. DT had two mistakes talked about by others, Matt lost the ball and then fouled a three point shooter compounding his error, Luke drove in and then made a bad pass turnover. Really cohesive senior type play avoids those mistakes and we need to get there. That said, we were resilient and came back in the second half after poor shooting in the first half while NC State was unconscious from the 3. They shot over our zone and some were contested but there were a few that weren't

How did we do that? Well clearly Grayson had an incredible scoring game driving the ball from all over. Marshall would go to his side, set a screen and then make any one of a number or reads and passes to get us and open driving lane or shooter. Grayson often plays on the limit of control and you have to forgive any mistakes doing that since he is almost unstoppable when going to the basket. Brandon is also extremely hard to match up with and has such good body control that he can score in any number of ways. Coach K's adaptation, using Marshall on the baseline for a feed from our driving guard also worked well today despite being specifically concentrated on by NC State as the announcer mentioned.

Luke started off cold again but came back in the second half to make a nice contribution. DT makes mistakes out there by he is still our quickest guard with ball handling and shooting skills. We need to have him in the game gaining experience as he will be needed in the tournament against teams with quick guards like Cat Barber. Matt did give us a couple of important threes and our guards hit their T to finish the game. End of game FT should be our strength and was today.

Great that we got this win as we continue into the tougher part of our schedule.

Looks like Jeter has lost his backup role to Obi.

Atldukie79
01-23-2016, 05:01 PM
Clearly K had instructed Grayson to be aggressive and hunt his shot. He was not waiting for the game to come to him.

Also. K wanted to slow down State and make them start their offense later by double teaming Cat in the backcourt, making him lob over Brandon, and then sprinting back to play zone. State started the offense around the 20 second mark.

Brandon's finger roll hi off the glass was a thing of beauty...you do not see that skill in college very often.

dukelifer
01-23-2016, 05:02 PM
We shot 71% from the floor & 7-11 from 3 point range in the second half.

I predict if Duke does that every game- they will win more than they lose. They needed a big game- hopefully it will bring them some confidence. Ingram has just scary good potential as a player. Still a lot to learn but he can score from anywhere on the floor. Not sure Duke has ever had a Freshman at that size with those gifts. We will not be seeing him next year- so we can only marvel while he is here.

-bdbd
01-23-2016, 05:05 PM
I thought Amile was moving fairly freely on the sidelines. Cant be far off?

No boot!!

Wahoo!!!!:D

Atldukie79
01-23-2016, 05:09 PM
Oh...and is this the wrong time to point out that 3 of our 4 ACC wins are against the bottom 3 ACC teams in the standings with a combined ACC record of 2-18? Hmmm...any ACC win is a good win...and I will keep repeating that!

-bdbd
01-23-2016, 05:13 PM
The Duke-State box score... Yes, Marshall and BI each came out for 1 minute. That's all. Other than Obi's ONE minute, we played just six guys, That's a lot of minutes for just a few bodies... Fortunately State only went 7 deep themselves. Obviously Allen and Ingram dominated the scoring for us. I thought it was really important that we were paying attention to stopping their O-rebounds/second-chance points -- certainly better than against the Orange!

Really good, important win for the guys! Now go beat the 'canes!! 'hope they're not tired come Monday in south Florida.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400839767

Duke95
01-23-2016, 05:17 PM
6 is the new 8.

Kishiznit
01-23-2016, 05:28 PM
Even though Thornton's 3 gave us our first lead in 2nd half, the two 3 pointers by Matt Jones were the biggest shots. Has to be huge for his confidence moving forward. To watch Allen work all over the floor on both sides of the ball should allow him NPOTY consideration.

FerryFor50
01-23-2016, 05:29 PM
Great win.

The zone was a good choice. State isn't an elite 3 point shooting team (despite the aberration in the first half) and doesn't have a guy with a great mid-range game (they could have used Washington, who transferred).


The zone was designed to minimize Barber's penetration, and it worked for the most part. They also added a wrinkle after made baskets with a token double team on Barber to get the ball out of his hands and make him play a halfcourt game.

But I also think the zone was intended to limit foul trouble and keep the guys fresh. That allowed a more aggressive team in the 2nd half on both ends of the floor, which has been the crux of Duke's issues the past 3 games. Think fresher legs wouldn't have helped in those one possession losses?

Zone won't work for every team, but is good against teams like NCSU.

Fun fact: this is the first game of the last 4 where Duke did not lead at halftime. All about how you finish.

Amile is out of the boot and likely not too far away from a return. Let's keep treading water...

tfk53
01-23-2016, 05:36 PM
Learning how to close out a win - especially on the road and after 3 close losses - vitally important to this young Duke team. There were a few moments in the last several minutes that could have shaken their confidence. The DT turnover mentioned earlier. The turnover by Jones and then his foul on a three pointer. But, they kept their cool and came out on top. Very proud of their effort today. Loved the changing defenses. Onto Miami, 2nd of 3 tough road games in a row.

blynch923
01-23-2016, 05:39 PM
Grayson and Brandon were sensational today. They had no answer for Grayson all day. Love the toughness Marshall brings to the team. Can't wait to have Amile back.

wsb3
01-23-2016, 05:43 PM
Does anyone know where the press conference for Coach K might be? I can't find it. Be great if someone could post the link.

Thanks

DukieInBrasil
01-23-2016, 05:58 PM
Barber injuring his leg was the turning point that Duke needed. They started the 2nd Half strong, but when Barber went down is when Duke began playing much better. When Barber returned he wasn't the same.
State played unconscious ball in the 1st Half and reverted to the norm in the 2nd.
It's really a shame that none of Jeter/Obi/Vrank can provide anything of use to the team now. There is likely little they could do to improve the play of MP3 now, but having a few minutes of rest per half would boost his energy i'm sure. He is now 9 rebs shy on the season of matching his career total up to this year. Dude's ballin'.
I'd love to see Luke shooting fewer 3s. He's a much better 2pt shooter and a great FT shooter and pretty good at drawing fouls. Overall, it is a much better play for Duke if Luke passes on the 3 and drives instead.
Derryck is fine for bringing the ball up court, but he is really struggling with pretty much everything else that a PG is supposed to do. Overall today was a C performance from him. He shot ok from the floor, but had no assists and 3 turns. His D was reasonable, but not great. He got a steal and 3 rebs, so he was engaged in the game.
This game was the Grayson and Brandon Show on offense, and i think that's what Duke needs to do for the rest of the non-Amile games. Matt and Luke are decent secondary options on O, in the ways they're being used now. MP3 is filling his role to perfection: Oboards, 2nd chance & easy drop off points, good FT shooting, and solid defense. But G&B were too much for State in this game.
On to Miami!

freshmanjs
01-23-2016, 06:00 PM
Barber injuring his leg was the turning point that Duke needed. They started the 2nd Half strong, but when Barber went down is when Duke began playing much better. When Barber returned he wasn't the same.
State played unconscious ball in the 1st Half and reverted to the norm in the 2nd.
It's really a shame that none of Jeter/Obi/Vrank can provide anything of use to the team now. There is likely little they could do to improve the play of MP3 now, but having a few minutes of rest per half would boost his energy i'm sure. He is now 9 rebs shy on the season of matching his career total up to this year. Dude's ballin'.
I'd love to see Luke shooting fewer 3s. He's a much better 2pt shooter and a great FT shooter and pretty good at drawing fouls. Overall, it is a much better play for Duke if Luke passes on the 3 and drives instead.
Derryck is fine for bringing the ball up court, but he is really struggling with pretty much everything else that a PG is supposed to do. Overall today was a C performance from him. He shot ok from the floor, but had no assists and 3 turns. His D was reasonable, but not great. He got a steal and 3 rebs, so he was engaged in the game.
This game was the Grayson and Brandon Show on offense, and i think that's what Duke needs to do for the rest of the non-Amile games. Matt and Luke are decent secondary options on O, in the ways they're being used now. MP3 is filling his role to perfection: Oboards, 2nd chance & easy drop off points, good FT shooting, and solid defense. But G&B were too much for State in this game.
On to Miami!

That helped, but Duke is the team that started the second half strong, cutting the 7 point lead to 1 within a couple of minutes.

uh_no
01-23-2016, 06:10 PM
This game boiled down to a tale of two halves from 3pt range. In the first half, State hit 3 more 3s than they should have (based on their season averages) in going 6-9, while we missed 3 more than we should have in going 1-10. That is an 18-point swing, just on the virtue of one team having a hot half and the other being cold. Not surprisingly, we trailed by a decent margin at the half.


It may have been just my perception, but it seemed our threes in the second half were far more open. except for the brandon 4 point play one, I don't remember any that were particularly closely guarded in the second. almost all off the pass. one matt even had like 3 seconds to line it up.

I really wish 3 point stats would be broken out by how open they are and whether they come off the pass/dribble. I suspect there would be a massive difference for most people who aren't named stephen curry.

Either way, the offense was good in the second half. very few bad shots.

wsb3
01-23-2016, 06:28 PM
http://www.goduke.com/

MaxAMillion
01-23-2016, 06:48 PM
Barber injuring his leg was the turning point that Duke needed. They started the 2nd Half strong, but when Barber went down is when Duke began playing much better. When Barber returned he wasn't the same.
State played unconscious ball in the 1st Half and reverted to the norm in the 2nd.
It's really a shame that none of Jeter/Obi/Vrank can provide anything of use to the team now. There is likely little they could do to improve the play of MP3 now, but having a few minutes of rest per half would boost his energy i'm sure. He is now 9 rebs shy on the season of matching his career total up to this year. Dude's ballin'.
I'd love to see Luke shooting fewer 3s. He's a much better 2pt shooter and a great FT shooter and pretty good at drawing fouls. Overall, it is a much better play for Duke if Luke passes on the 3 and drives instead.
Derryck is fine for bringing the ball up court, but he is really struggling with pretty much everything else that a PG is supposed to do. Overall today was a C performance from him. He shot ok from the floor, but had no assists and 3 turns. His D was reasonable, but not great. He got a steal and 3 rebs, so he was engaged in the game.
This game was the Grayson and Brandon Show on offense, and i think that's what Duke needs to do for the rest of the non-Amile games. Matt and Luke are decent secondary options on O, in the ways they're being used now. MP3 is filling his role to perfection: Oboards, 2nd chance & easy drop off points, good FT shooting, and solid defense. But G&B were too much for State in this game.
On to Miami!

This is why losing Jones was such a big loss and one the staff could not have prepared for coming into last season. Jones would allow the offense to be more efficient and put players in their proper roles (taking Matt Jones away from playing pg). It would also have meant Thornton playing his last year of high school ball. I am sure K and company never considered Jones a one and done player when he was being recruited to Duke.

NashvilleDevil
01-23-2016, 06:51 PM
On to Miami

Neals384
01-23-2016, 06:56 PM
A quad-fecta for me the last three days as all four of "my" teams were on TV, and all four won. On Thursday, Saint Mary's (we have a friend attending) came from behind to top Gonzaga; on Friday my Alma Mater Stony Brook came from behind to top conference rival Albany, and today Oregon beat UCLA. And of course Duke has "restored order". My other three teams are all first or second in conference. It's been a fund three days!

BD80
01-23-2016, 07:25 PM
We do not play a 2-3 zone particularly well.

CDu
01-23-2016, 07:53 PM
It may have been just my perception, but it seemed our threes in the second half were far more open. except for the brandon 4 point play one, I don't remember any that were particularly closely guarded in the second. almost all off the pass. one matt even had like 3 seconds to line it up.

I really wish 3 point stats would be broken out by how open they are and whether they come off the pass/dribble. I suspect there would be a massive difference for most people who aren't named stephen curry.

Either way, the offense was good in the second half. very few bad shots.

I think the first half 3s were also pretty open. They just missed them.

pamtar
01-23-2016, 07:55 PM
It may have been just my perception, but it seemed our threes in the second half were far more open. except for the brandon 4 point play one, I don't remember any that were particularly closely guarded in the second. almost all off the pass. one matt even had like 3 seconds to line it up.

I really wish 3 point stats would be broken out by how open they are and whether they come off the pass/dribble. I suspect there would be a massive difference for most people who aren't named stephen curry.

Either way, the offense was good in the second half. very few bad shots.

Great observation. I think it's really important to make this distinction when looking at our make/miss from deep in the second half. The adage should be "live by the open three, die by the forced, contested three." We have some very good shooters, but open threes are sooooo much easier than quick, spot-up jumpers. Its amazing what a little dribble-drive and lockup D can do. We saw a glimpse of Duke basketball again once the shots started falling. Hope they build on it.

Troublemaker
01-23-2016, 08:07 PM
We do not play a 2-3 zone particularly well.

Perhaps, but we played it today better than any zone we've played since Amile went out. (A little extra practice time helps.) And I kind of felt like Duke's zone got better as the game progressed.

We're almost certainly using it again on Monday, so hopefully now that we have this first game of zone under our belt (and it being a W, to boot!), Duke will play the 2-3 zone even better against Miami.

CDu
01-23-2016, 08:24 PM
We do not play a 2-3 zone particularly well.

We don't have to be great at it. We just have to be tolerable at it. And more importantly we just have to be better at it than we are man-to-man whenever we need to do so.

This was one of those games. I mentioned before the game that if ever a game screamed for a 2-3 zone this was it. They had a PG who would torch us off the dribble in man, and they didn't have the shooting prowess to punish such a zone, and they didn't have a variety of good decisionmakers to pick spart the zone.

In the first half, they hit an unbelievably high percentage from 3, but we stuck to it and got the win in large part because of the zone.

The advantage of the zone is that it limits dribble penetration and it cuts down on foul trouble. Both of those are huge for a team that struggles against dribble penetration and that plays just 6 guys. Until Jefferson comes back, I don't mind seeing a good chunk of zone, just to hold the group together and keep our big guns on the floor.

Billy Dat
01-23-2016, 08:28 PM
This is a young team and doesn't know how to finish games. DT had two mistakes talked about by others, Matt lost the ball and then fouled a three point shooter compounding his error, Luke drove in and then made a bad pass turnover. Really cohesive senior type play avoids those mistakes and we need to get there.


Learning how to close out a win - especially on the road and after 3 close losses - vitally important to this young Duke team. There were a few moments in the last several minutes that could have shaken their confidence. The DT turnover mentioned earlier. The turnover by Jones and then his foul on a three pointer. But, they kept their cool and came out on top

I am more with tfk53 regarding the final 6-7 minutes. Yes, we made the mistakes that have been highlighted, but those were the only ones we made through that whole stretch. We bled the shot clock down every time, drew a bunch of non-shooting fouls to reset the clock and bled it down again, and bled it further on offensive boards where we reset. Even DT, who made that bad pass, made several good decisions to slow down and set up rather than chase a 2-1 in transition which would have led to a quicker pace and more possessions. I felt like we closed the game like a veteran team.

Allen's playmaking and shotmaking down the stretch was huge. Ingram made several huge baskets when the game was in doubt. The Matt Jones 3s were huge, and he hit them just when I was wondering if his early season play was a mirage.

Marshall's emergence has been obscured by the losing streak, but the things we can now trust him to do are huge. Grayson's effectiveness down the stretch was facilitated by Marshall's ability to catch the ball elbow extended, hold the ball while Grayson ran off the Plumlee screen from the corner, and to make good reads on the defensive and either hand it off to Grayson, or hold it while Grayson rescreened or redirect the ball. K called that play time after time in the final minutes, right in front of the Duke bench, and it worked enough to allow us to close it out. That poor DT pass that led to the Abu dunk was the same play - we must have run it 8 times in a row. I also expect him to make more FTs then he misses, which is progress.

Who knows what is in store Monday, but we made a stand when we needed to and Amile is out of his boot. K has never once questioned this team's fight or effort. We have tremendous talent, including two probable first round NBA draft picks in Ingram and Allen. I know Parker and Hood were first rounders, too, and that team never reached its potential, but this teams feels tougher to me. One game at a time.

uh_no
01-23-2016, 08:35 PM
We don't have to be great at it. We just have to be tolerable at it. And more importantly we just have to be better at it than we are man-to-man whenever we need to do so.

This was one of those games. I mentioned before the game that if ever a game screamed for a 2-3 zone this was it. They had a PG who would torch us off the dribble in man, and they didn't have the shooting prowess to punish such a zone, and they didn't have a variety of good decisionmakers to pick spart the zone.

In the first half, they hit an unbelievably high percentage from 3, but we stuck to it and got the win in large part because of the zone.

The advantage of the zone is that it limits dribble penetration and it cuts down on foul trouble. Both of those are huge for a team that struggles against dribble penetration and that plays just 6 guys. Until Jefferson comes back, I don't mind seeing a good chunk of zone, just to hold the group together and keep our big guns on the floor.

another point is that it HOPEFULLY keeps us fresh for a monday night tilt with miami. given how spent we were down the stretch vs syracuse, i think we needed to conserve as much as possible today.

BD80
01-23-2016, 08:38 PM
We don't have to be great at it. We just have to be tolerable at it. And more importantly we just have to be better at it than we are man-to-man whenever we need to do so.

This was one of those games. I mentioned before the game that if ever a game screamed for a 2-3 zone this was it. They had a PG who would torch us off the dribble in man, and they didn't have the shooting prowess to punish such a zone, and they didn't have a variety of good decisionmakers to pick spart the zone.

In the first half, they hit an unbelievably high percentage from 3, but we stuck to it and got the win in large part because of the zone.

The advantage of the zone is that it limits dribble penetration and it cuts down on foul trouble. Both of those are huge for a team that struggles against dribble penetration and that plays just 6 guys. Until Jefferson comes back, I don't mind seeing a good chunk of zone, just to hold the group together and keep our big guns on the floor.

I think we play a 3-2 (or 1-2-2) or a 1-3-1 zone more effectively than a 2-3. It is important for us to have a player specifically tasked with stopping the ball at the point.

huey
01-23-2016, 09:37 PM
Anyone know where to find this on replay? CBS pre-empted the game with blizzard coverage. Don't see it on espn3. Any ideas?

CDu
01-23-2016, 09:38 PM
I think we play a 3-2 (or 1-2-2) or a 1-3-1 zone more effectively than a 2-3. It is important for us to have a player specifically tasked with stopping the ball at the point.

I think we did a pretty good job of stopping the ball at the top today.

BD80
01-23-2016, 09:46 PM
I think we did a pretty good job of stopping the ball at the top today.

Yes, usually using the 3-2

Stray Gator
01-23-2016, 09:53 PM
Anyone know where to find this on replay? CBS pre-empted the game with blizzard coverage. Don't see it on espn3. Any ideas?

Both the full game and condensed game replays are available on GoDuke.com, if you have a Blue Devil Network subscription that enables you to access the Archived Games.

arnie
01-23-2016, 10:08 PM
Expec this win keeps us in Top 25 another week. Butler ranked ahead is in a free fall and not many strong teams outside of rankings. Plus Indy and VCU wins looking much better.

Olympic Fan
01-23-2016, 10:18 PM
Expec this win keeps us in Top 25 another week. Butler ranked ahead is in a free fall and not many strong teams outside of rankings. Plus Indy and VCU wins looking much better.

I was looking at the rankings to see if we could stay in. This is what I got (based on the lower end of last week's poll):

No. 20 Duke 1-1 (loss to Syracuse, win at NC State)
No. 21 Southern Cal 0-1 (loss at Oregon) with a Sunday game at Oregon State
No. 22 Purdue 2-0 (at Rutgers and Ohio State at home), plus a Sunday game at Iowa
No. 23 Kentucky 2-0 (wins at Arkansas and home to Vandy)
No. 24 South Carolina 1-1 (win at Ole Miss in OT, loss at Tennessee)
No. 25 Indiana 2-0 (wins vs. Illinois and Northwestern)

Also:
No. 26 Pitt 1-1 (loss to NC State at home, win at FSU)
No. 27 Clemson 0-1 (loss at Virginia)
No. 27 Wichita State 1-0, plus a game Sunday at Evansville
No. 28. Valpo 1-1 (loss at Wright State)

Looking at that list, I think Duke will be No. 23 or No. 24, depending on how the Sunday games pan out.

PS I think the secret to Duke's defense Saturday was not any one defense, but K's facility in shifting defenses. Duke still play a good deal of man (usually with Matt Jones and sometimes with Brandon on Cat Barber), a lot of the 2-3, some of a 3-2 and a bit if 1-3-1. It was the ability to change defenses, and not any one defense, that worked so much better (although State still shot 51 percent and had just nine turnovers).

Duke76
01-23-2016, 10:53 PM
We don't have to be great at it. We just have to be tolerable at it. And more importantly we just have to be better at it than we are man-to-man whenever we need to do so.

This was one of those games. I mentioned before the game that if ever a game screamed for a 2-3 zone this was it. They had a PG who would torch us off the dribble in man, and they didn't have the shooting prowess to punish such a zone, and they didn't have a variety of good decisionmakers to pick spart the zone.

In the first half, they hit an unbelievably high percentage from 3, but we stuck to it and got the win in large part because of the zone.

The advantage of the zone is that it limits dribble penetration and it cuts down on foul trouble. Both of those are huge for a team that struggles against dribble penetration and that plays just 6 guys. Until Jefferson comes back, I don't mind seeing a good chunk of zone, just to hold the group together and keep our big guns on the floor.

perfect comments...very few blow bys and that's how we were putting so much pressure on our offense cause guards were blowing by all our guards and getting easy scores. we just don't play good man to man especially at our guard positions....as far as Luke, he needs to put the pump fake away and shoot the darn ball as soon as he gets it in his hands, he's thinking so much on his shot, you can just see the hesitation and his mind spinning...he also doesn't tend to follow through on his 3 point shots like he does on the foul line. Andre Dawkins needs to come back and show him how to "breathe"

jv001
01-23-2016, 10:57 PM
I was looking at the rankings to see if we could stay in. This is what I got (based on the lower end of last week's poll):

No. 20 Duke 1-1 (loss to Syracuse, win at NC State)
No. 21 Southern Cal 0-1 (loss at Oregon) with a Sunday game at Oregon State
No. 22 Purdue 2-0 (at Rutgers and Ohio State at home), plus a Sunday game at Iowa
No. 23 Kentucky 2-0 (wins at Arkansas and home to Vandy)
No. 24 South Carolina 1-1 (win at Ole Miss in OT, loss at Tennessee)
No. 25 Indiana 2-0 (wins vs. Illinois and Northwestern)

Also:
No. 26 Pitt 1-1 (loss to NC State at home, win at FSU)
No. 27 Clemson 0-1 (loss at Virginia)
No. 27 Wichita State 1-0, plus a game Sunday at Evansville
No. 28. Valpo 1-1 (loss at Wright State)

Looking at that list, I think Duke will be No. 23 or No. 24, depending on how the Sunday games pan out.

PS I think the secret to Duke's defense Saturday was not any one defense, but K's facility in shifting defenses. Duke still play a good deal of man (usually with Matt Jones and sometimes with Brandon on Cat Barber), a lot of the 2-3, some of a 3-2 and a bit if 1-3-1. It was the ability to change defenses, and not any one defense, that worked so much better (although State still shot 51 percent and had just nine turnovers).

Thornton played Barber a lot also and he did a pretty good job on him. I was glad to see Thornton not pick up full court as he did against Syracuse. I agree with you that K's job of switching defenses was key. GoDuke!

CDu
01-23-2016, 11:00 PM
Yes, usually using the 3-2

We predominantly used the 2-3 today, not the 3-2. I don't remember much 3-2 at all. Plumlee was almost always in the middle with two wings flanking him.

Duke76
01-23-2016, 11:00 PM
This game boiled down to a tale of two halves from 3pt range. In the first half, State hit 3 more 3s than they should have (based on their season averages) in going 6-9, while we missed 3 more than we should have in going 1-10. That is an 18-point swing, just on the virtue of one team having a hot half and the other being cold. Not surprisingly, we trailed by a decent margin at the half.

Then, in the second half, the script flipped. We hit 3 more than we should have in going 9-15, while State missed two more than it should have in going 2-12. That 15 point swing back in our favor was huge. Sometimes, the game can really swing simply on aberrant outcomes over a small sample size. Today was one of those days... in both directions.

Kudos to Coach K for sticking with the zone. It was a good idea that happened to look questionable when State got hot. But rather than panicking and reverting to man, he rode it out and was rewarded by State getting cold in the second half. Gutsy call, but the right one. They just refused to go man and allow Barber to get loose. Barber is the key to that team, and the zone minimized his damage.

Great game from Allen today. I mentioned pre-game in the Phase IV thread that he disappeared a bit for long stretches in our recent losses. Well, he didn't disappear today. He was awesome out there.

Kennard simply can't buy a break. He had two threes rattle in and out today. The other four were legit misses, but he seems to have more shots go in and come back out than most. It plagued him early this year and it plagued him today. He did have some clever drives, but the key to unlocking his full potential will be for those 3s to start falling.

Ingram was his usual terrific self. One of the byproducts of the zone is that he stayed out of foul trouble. But another (especially when he plays up top) is that he is a menace in challenging shooters. I think he blocked two 3s today.

Big win for the confidence of the team. A sorely needed positive finish. Also, it was nice seeing Jefferson in tennis shoes today rather than the boot. Hopefully his return is nearing!

I will say State's passing was beautiful text book passing against the zone, especially in the first half....but I hope K shows team that film with an emphasis on passing...still don't know why we don't post the center or Ingram at the foul line for same sort of sets...we never do that...we always seem to have the center or forward come set a pick for the guard...while it worked out fine in the second half I still question if the more traditional offense of passing to the guy at the foul line would be more effective...think the shooters would get more open looks that way than having to dribble out of it

Kedsy
01-23-2016, 11:13 PM
Thornton played Barber a lot also and he did a pretty good job on him.

I agree. I was pretty impressed with Derryck's D today.

eddiehaskell
01-23-2016, 11:37 PM
This was an absolute must, must, must win. Now beat Miami and I can relax a tad. A big win puts us at 5-3 with two more winnable games to follow @GT and NCST at home.

I hate to look ahead too much, but if we can go into the storm starting Feb 8 at 7-3 - "all" we need to do is go 4-4 in those final 8 games. 5 of those 8 are home games and maybe, just maybe, Amile will be back by the Virginia game on the 13th or at least UNC on the 17th.

Furniture
01-23-2016, 11:49 PM
Props to Wheat who, when the sky was falling in DBR chat, noted that State would not keep up their shot percentage of the first half and that Duke would win.

uh_no
01-23-2016, 11:55 PM
Props to Wheat who, when the sky was falling in DBR chat, noted that State would not keep up their shot percentage of the first half and that Duke would win.

i told him i guaranteed a win.

Then, given he knew we were going to win, figured state had to shoot less well.

ncexnyc
01-24-2016, 12:21 AM
At the end of the 1st half I started getting that sense of deja vu. Circus shots dropping for State, some super deep 3's, a couple of shots going high up off the rim and bouncing through, and a few boneheaded plays by Duke. Again it looked like that very slim margin for error was going to jump up and bite us.

Somehow the kids managed to flip the script in the second half and the team pulled away for a much needed win.

Grayson had a huge game for us and as others have noted he was there from start to finish. While we do have a ton of weapons, maybe he does need to be a bit more unselfish going forward.

As fans we'd better get used to Derryck and what he brings to the table. He's very talented, but very young and with most PG's his age we'll have to accept the good plays as well as the bad. Last year Tyus was the exception to the rule, but we all need to remember what Quinn was like during his freshman year.

MP3 has been a huge surprise this year. I had faith in him to be able to play solid defense and snag boards, but I had no idea he'd be so good from the free throw line and that he'd become so deadly around the rim.

Watching Luke is such a big tease. At any moment you expect him to break out and drop 20+ on the opposition, he's got all the tools.

Not much you can say about Brandon. The kid is a natural and has really picked up his game in the absence of Amile. Funny how some people were concerned about his play at the start of the season.

Nice to see Matt play better. The rest clearly did him some good. He's definitely one of those players you either love or you don't, but then that's the nature of this board for some odd reason. There always seems to be a player Coach K. adores, but some fans just don't understand why.

Mr. Jefferson seems to be getting better and that's great news and early February return would be most welcome.

Troublemaker
01-24-2016, 01:56 AM
This was an absolute must, must, must win. Now beat Miami and I can relax a tad. A big win puts us at 5-3 with two more winnable games to follow @GT and NCST at home.

I hate to look ahead too much, but if we can go into the storm starting Feb 8 at 7-3 - "all" we need to do is go 4-4 in those final 8 games. 5 of those 8 are home games and maybe, just maybe, Amile will be back by the Virginia game on the 13th or at least UNC on the 17th.

What are you aiming for there? 11-7 to do what? (I'm thinking 15-3, son! :-)

But seriously, are you thinking 11-7 will get top 4 ACC?

Troublemaker
01-24-2016, 02:00 AM
while it worked out fine in the second half I still question if the more traditional offense of passing to the guy at the foul line would be more effective...think the shooters would get more open looks that way than having to dribble out of it

Maybe, but the way Duke was rolling on offense (133 efficiency), I wouldn't have changed a thing for fear that it would lower that efficiency.

I do agree that we need more variety against the very good zone teams like Syracuse.

But what we do now is fine and has been fine against most zone teams who don't dedicate their program to it like Cuse does. That's why the "every team is going to zone us now!" panic post-Syracuse was a bit unwarranted.

Troublemaker
01-24-2016, 02:07 AM
we just don't play good man to man especially at our guard positions..

I think the guards do play good defense, actually. Our m2m problems had more to do with team defense against the pick-n-roll and defensive rebounding. The "blow bys" you see are actually just the way we play ball screens by having the guard angle the ball-handler towards our big man, a method called "icing" the ball screen. The guard is not supposed to stop the penetration. It's the job of the big man to stop the penetration.

hsheffield
01-24-2016, 07:16 AM
check out photo 24/58 on the N & O story about the game: Marshall is surrounded by FOUR state players but is totally focused on the basket. it's a thing of beauty!

(ok, one of the State is looking on and one of the twins has his eyes closed, but still)

Saratoga2
01-24-2016, 08:39 AM
perfect comments...very few blow bys and that's how we were putting so much pressure on our offense cause guards were blowing by all our guards and getting easy scores. we just don't play good man to man especially at our guard positions...as far as Luke, he needs to put the pump fake away and shoot the darn ball as soon as he gets it in his hands, he's thinking so much on his shot, you can just see the hesitation and his mind spinning...he also doesn't tend to follow through on his 3 point shots like he does on the foul line. Andre Dawkins needs to come back and show him how to "breathe"

We have talked in the threads about how good FT shooting correlates with good 3 point shooting. Luke owns our best ft %. Luke gets into position and is open fairly often on his shots. I have noticed a fairly consistent number hit inside the rim and bounce out. Not a shooters bounce but the opposite. If he was making those, Duke would be a more formidable team.

So is he just a bad shooter? I don't think so as is form is okay. So is there something he could do to improve over the longer term? To answer that question I considered what the great 3 point shooters did and do. Reggie Miller, Stephen Curry and Larry Bird for a few. Each one of them put more of an arc on the shot than Luke. I am not trying to compare Luke to those, only look for a possible area for improvement. I would recommend to Luke that he consider increasing his arc. Not an easy change to make in the season but certainly something to consider. I think Luke has the potential to be a 40% shooter and would love to see him reach that level, preferably some time this season. As far as not thinking about it and just shooting quickly when he gets the ball, I think repeating what he has been doing is likely to lead to the same results, which are not adequate for someone that appears to have a lot of shooting talent.

rsvman
01-24-2016, 09:16 AM
JJ had less arc than Luke, and he did ok.

remember what jj said when people complained about the bounces they got off the tight rims in Cameron? It boiled down to "don't hit the rims."

Duke76
01-24-2016, 10:21 AM
I think the guards do play good defense, actually. Our m2m problems had more to do with team defense against the pick-n-roll and defensive rebounding. The "blow bys" you see are actually just the way we play ball screens by having the guard angle the ball-handler towards our big man, a method called "icing" the ball screen. The guard is not supposed to stop the penetration. It's the job of the big man to stop the penetration.

really I am not, it is when there is no ball screen at all that makes us a mediocre man to man defensive team. We are much better suited to zone defense imo because
-our freshmen like many don't have good defensive fundamentals, like moving laterally efficiently, or have really that good quickness to move you feet correctly
-touch rules today on the guards make it more difficult to subtly "body up" the guards like the the Butler guards, as an example, so famously liked to do 4 or 5 years ago
-offensive skills are what we recruit off of generally, it takes a couple of years under Coach K to play the man to man defense he likes to play

Troublemaker
01-24-2016, 10:24 AM
Saratoga, you're now also going to be Luke's shot doctor, huh?

Luke will be fine long-term, even at current arc.

Others have mentioned this before, but I suspect his biggest issue is that he had the ball in his hands all the time in high school, so he's not as comfortable with catch-and-shoot threes. His off-the-dribble shooting (both long 2s and 3s) has been superb, imo.

If that's correct, then Luke just has to keep at it in individual work in practice, having coaches and managers feeding him catch-and-shoot threes. Eventually he'll start hitting them at a good rate in games.

Troublemaker
01-24-2016, 10:31 AM
really I am not, it is when there is no ball screen at all that makes us a mediocre man to man defensive team. We are much better suited to zone defense imo because
-our freshmen like many don't have good defensive fundamentals, like moving laterally efficiently, or have really that good quickness to move you feet correctly
-touch rules today on the guards make it more difficult to subtly "body up" the guards like the the Butler guards, as an example, so famously liked to do 4 or 5 years ago
-offensive skills are what we recruit off of generally, it takes a couple of years under Coach K to play the man to man defense he likes to play

Okay, we are closer to agreement now. But the 1-on-1 attacks of our guards occur infrequently compared to ball screen attacks, so I'm not too worried about that. Even then, it is up to the big men to come over and help since they are actually near the basket on 1-on-1 drives. I'm not really sure guards can straight up stop penetration 1-on-1 anymore at the NBA and college level with the rules of contact in place. There are only an elite few that can do so. Duke more or less drives at will, for example, and it's up to our opponents' big men to rim-protect if they want to stop us.

JNort
01-24-2016, 01:55 PM
As in almost every game this year I was supremely impressed with DT and his play on the court. Kid is something special imo.

MartyClark
01-24-2016, 02:00 PM
check out photo 24/58 on the N & O story about the game: Marshall is surrounded by FOUR state players but is totally focused on the basket. it's a thing of beauty!

(ok, one of the State is looking on and one of the twins has his eyes closed, but still)

It's too early for a MPIII appreciation thread, maybe at the end of the season, but I have been really surprised at his progress. He has played hard and smart. I think he has maximized his strengths and he, or maybe K, have made adjustments to lessen the impact of his weaknesses.

I haven't looked at any statistics but doesn't MPIII's final year meet or exceed the Zoubekian standard? Both had senior years that were significantly better than any of their 3 earlier seasons. Both seem to be really good guys and good students who stuck with it, worked hard and had a senior year that surprised most of us.

Saratoga2
01-24-2016, 02:12 PM
Saratoga, you're now also going to be Luke's shot doctor, huh?

Luke will be fine long-term, even at current arc.

Others have mentioned this before, but I suspect his biggest issue is that he had the ball in his hands all the time in high school, so he's not as comfortable with catch-and-shoot threes. His off-the-dribble shooting (both long 2s and 3s) has been superb, imo.

If that's correct, then Luke just has to keep at it in individual work in practice, having coaches and managers feeding him catch-and-shoot threes. Eventually he'll start hitting them at a good rate in games.

No, just making suggestions because the status quo is not where he needs to be. I believe Luke could be a very efficient 3 point shooter and would love to see him attain that this season.

vick
01-24-2016, 02:17 PM
It's too early for a MPIII appreciation thread, maybe at the end of the season, but I have been really surprised at his progress. He has played hard and smart. I think he has maximized his strengths and he, or maybe K, have made adjustments to lessen the impact of his weaknesses.

I haven't looked at any statistics but doesn't MPIII's final year meet or exceed the Zoubekian standard? Both had senior years that were significantly better than any of their 3 earlier seasons. Both seem to be really good guys and good students who stuck with it, worked hard and had a senior year that surprised most of us.

Hard to compare side-by-side--Zoubek probably better on a per-minute basis (being a much better defensive rebounder is helpful), but Plumlee's ability to avoid fouls given the minutes he's playing is certainly highly valuable.

What's impressed me most this year is that, at least so far, Plumlee is putting up better performances against the higher-quality teams we've played. That was definitely not the case over the last two years, as his numbers were solid against weak teams and pretty bad against strong ones (to some degree most players have this effect, but it was very pronounced for Plumlee). We'll see if he can keep it up against the better defenses coming up on the schedule, but so far, so good.

JNort
01-24-2016, 02:20 PM
I think the guards do play good defense, actually. Our m2m problems had more to do with team defense against the pick-n-roll and defensive rebounding. The "blow bys" you see are actually just the way we play ball screens by having the guard angle the ball-handler towards our big man, a method called "icing" the ball screen. The guard is not supposed to stop the penetration. It's the job of the big man to stop the penetration.

Yeah I feel like our guards (especially DT) play great man D. I know everyone harps on about Matt's defense but DT is much better as is Luke's. Our problem is the team defense and all our freshmen plus Grayson are struggling with rotations, getting back quickly, and overall decision making

grossbus
01-24-2016, 02:22 PM
"It's too early for a MPIII appreciation thread"

maybe too early for a thread, but not to early to appreciate. i think he has been doing great.

CDu
01-24-2016, 02:23 PM
It's too early for a MPIII appreciation thread, maybe at the end of the season, but I have been really surprised at his progress. He has played hard and smart. I think he has maximized his strengths and he, or maybe K, have made adjustments to lessen the impact of his weaknesses.

I haven't looked at any statistics but doesn't MPIII's final year meet or exceed the Zoubekian standard? Both had senior years that were significantly better than any of their 3 earlier seasons. Both seem to be really good guys and good students who stuck with it, worked hard and had a senior year that surprised most of us.

Similar scoring (pace adjusted), better shotblocking, but much worse rebounding than Zoubek. That isn't to bash Umlee though: Zoubek was one of the best rebounders ever that year.

dukelifer
01-24-2016, 02:31 PM
As in almost every game this year I was supremely impressed with DT and his play on the court. Kid is something special imo.

DT is figuring it out. He is very skilled and very quick - but his decision making needs work- so did Hurley's. He also has a very nice stroke and seems to hit shots under game pressure. You can see the potential. He is not a one and done talent but he will be an excellent player in a year or two.

Newton_14
01-24-2016, 02:59 PM
At the end of the 1st half I started getting that sense of deja vu. Circus shots dropping for State, some super deep 3's, a couple of shots going high up off the rim and bouncing through, and a few boneheaded plays by Duke. Again it looked like that very slim margin for error was going to jump up and bite us.

Somehow the kids managed to flip the script in the second half and the team pulled away for a much needed win.

Grayson had a huge game for us and as others have noted he was there from start to finish. While we do have a ton of weapons, maybe he does need to be a bit more unselfish going forward.

As fans we'd better get used to Derryck and what he brings to the table. He's very talented, but very young and with most PG's his age we'll have to accept the good plays as well as the bad. Last year Tyus was the exception to the rule, but we all need to remember what Quinn was like during his freshman year.

MP3 has been a huge surprise this year. I had faith in him to be able to play solid defense and snag boards, but I had no idea he'd be so good from the free throw line and that he'd become so deadly around the rim.

Watching Luke is such a big tease. At any moment you expect him to break out and drop 20+ on the opposition, he's got all the tools.

Not much you can say about Brandon. The kid is a natural and has really picked up his game in the absence of Amile. Funny how some people were concerned about his play at the start of the season.

Nice to see Matt play better. The rest clearly did him some good. He's definitely one of those players you either love or you don't, but then that's the nature of this board for some odd reason. There always seems to be a player Coach K. adores, but some fans just don't understand why.

Mr. Jefferson seems to be getting better and that's great news and early February return would be most welcome.

My thoughts exactly on the feel at halftime. State was shooting way above their heads from 3 and it was killing us. It was like, here we go again! Very frustrating. It was really gratifying to watch our guys keep their poise, and come out of that locker room and seize control of the game very early in the 2nd Half. They totally changed the tenor and dynamic of the game. A critical win in my opinion. People can point to Barber getting banged up all they want to, but the script for that game had changed long before that. It just wasn't going to matter imo. Grayson was brilliant, as was Brandon, and they got great support from the other 4 guys as well. It was Duke Basketball which was exactly what we needed.

I thought the zones accomplished a lot for us including limiting foul trouble, saving energy, containing Barber better, and dare I say helped rebounding. Normally it is harder to rebound in a zone, but with how our m2m requires sticking to shooters keeping us spread out, I think we actually gang rebound better in a zone. Also, it did not look like a straight up 2-3 to me. It looked more like a morphing zone, that changed to a 3-2, 1-2-2, and match-up zone, depending on what State was doing with their offensive positioning. The token full court pressure shaved time off of the shot clock, and also slowed Barber as well. Great game plan by the staff.

It helped of course that we shot 71% in the second half, but we have a lot of good shooters, and with that, shots are eventually going to start going in. I thought we had a good balance of attacking the rim, rather than just jacking up 3's all game.

Great to see Amile in sneakers, and hope it means we get him back soon. Meanwhile we need to find ways to steal wins until he gets back.

On to Miami.

Listen to Quants
01-24-2016, 03:02 PM
Saratoga, you're now also going to be Luke's shot doctor, huh?

Luke will be fine long-term, even at current arc.

Others have mentioned this before, but I suspect his biggest issue is that he had the ball in his hands all the time in high school, so he's not as comfortable with catch-and-shoot threes. His off-the-dribble shooting (both long 2s and 3s) has been superb, imo.

If that's correct, then Luke just has to keep at it in individual work in practice, having coaches and managers feeding him catch-and-shoot threes. Eventually he'll start hitting them at a good rate in games.


No, just making suggestions because the status quo is not where he needs to be. I believe Luke could be a very efficient 3 point shooter and would love to see him attain that this season.

I finally had to look. Kennards career 3% (Ohio) is 43%, his senior year 49% (on about 200 shots, so good volume). High School line may be 1 foot shorter than college, but still wow. I presume the staff have his HS film and look to see if there are any big changes. No shot-doc, just patience.

uh_no
01-24-2016, 03:16 PM
As in almost every game this year I was supremely impressed with DT and his play on the court. Kid is something special imo.

I'm curious what you're seeing that's "supremely impressing" you. I think he's certainly going to be a big contributor next year or the year after, and is certainly not a liability on the floor, but in ACC play, he hasn't been spectacular.

~10 points per 40 mins
~ 1 a/to, with half of his assists coming in one game.
6 FT attempts.
~ 33% from three
only 32% from the floor (13/40).

these are not impressive numbers.

Further, he has by far the lowest +/- of any of the regular players, even when scaled by minutes.

If I'm missing something, please let me know. I said it above and I'll say it again: He has a lot of potential, and it's not that he's playing badly, but he's not doing anything special right now. I had an opus earlier: He's a freshman. let him be a freshman. let's not heap him with undeserved praise nor criticism.

Saying he's playing great is taking away from guys like brandon, who are actually great playing freshman.

Derryck has not been particularly impressive, and that's okay.

DukieInBrasil
01-24-2016, 03:54 PM
Watch out everyone! Brandon is now the leading 3FG shooter on the team at .419, after 5 strait solid games from bonuspherelandia. Also, don't look now, but Derryck is now our 2nd best 3FG% shooter at .413. Everyone who takes 3s is hitting 40% or higher, except for Luke, who fell just south of 30% after the State game.
Also, due to his own personal streak of solid shooting from the stripe, MP3 is now above 60% on FTs this year, to go with nearly 70% shooting from the field. Compared to the previous 4 most recent games, 10pts and 8rebs is well BELOW his average!!! Who would ever thought that MP3 would average more than a double-double during ANY stretch of games? let alone ACC games!! Dude is ballin'!!!
Brandon is very close to being shooting better than 50% FG and 40+% 3FG, as Grayson already is! Those guys are having incredibly efficient seasons offensively.

gep
01-24-2016, 04:30 PM
Watch out everyone! Brandon is now the leading 3FG shooter on the team at .419, after 5 strait solid games from bonuspherelandia. Also, don't look now, but Derryck is now our 2nd best 3FG% shooter at .413. Everyone who takes 3s is hitting 40% or higher, except for Luke, who fell just south of 30% after the State game.
Also, due to his own personal streak of solid shooting from the stripe, MP3 is now above 60% on FTs this year, to go with nearly 70% shooting from the field. Compared to the previous 4 most recent games, 10pts and 8rebs is well BELOW his average!!! Who would ever thought that MP3 would average more than a double-double during ANY stretch of games? let alone ACC games!! Dude is ballin'!!!
Brandon is very close to being shooting better than 50% FG and 40+% 3FG, as Grayson already is! Those guys are having incredibly efficient seasons offensively.

MP3 is one of my favorites. Appears to have gotten the Zoubs-Feb formula.. but in mid-Jan. I LIKE it!!! Hope he has as wonderful a season as Zoubs had.:cool:

Furniture
01-24-2016, 05:55 PM
Not surprised about Brandon. He is very efficient. I think the Ben Simmons vs. Brandon for No.1 in the draft debate will start shortly. Ben can't shoot and Brandon is such an all rounder. Maybe Brandon sneaks into the top spot?
I could be way off though.
Go Panthers!!!

FerryFor50
01-24-2016, 09:32 PM
Not surprised about Brandon. He is very efficient. I think the Ben Simmons vs. Brandon for No.1 in the draft debate will start shortly. Ben can't shoot and Brandon is such an all rounder. Maybe Brandon sneaks into the top spot?
I could be way off though.
Go Panthers!!!

Each has a different skill set.

Ingram is way more diverse and polished offensively. Simmons seems stronger and is a better rebounder by far. Simmons also has great court vision and is a better passer than Ingram.

I say who goes #1 depends on who is picking, based on team need.

Furniture
01-24-2016, 11:13 PM
Looking back it's just a funny story...

“Let’s make this a unique college experience, but I don’t want any fans there. No matter how big a fan you are and I don’t care how much you paid for tickets, I don’t want you to be there. I can’t state it any stronger and I think the commissioner feels the same way,” he said.

http://wncn.com/2016/01/23/gov-mccrory-we-dont-want-you-to-come-to-ncsu-duke-basketball-game-saturday/

eddiehaskell
01-25-2016, 02:45 AM
What are you aiming for there? 11-7 to do what? (I'm thinking 15-3, son! :-)

But seriously, are you thinking 11-7 will get top 4 ACC?Hey now I'll take 15-3 because that means an ACC title (if UNC loses 1 game to a team not named Duke).

I'm not sure if 11-7 is top 4, but I do think 11 wins guarantees a tourney bid. Heck, 10-8 probably gets us in if we get a few wins against UNC/UVA/UM/UL.

Indoor66
01-25-2016, 08:35 AM
Each has a different skill set.

Ingram is way more diverse and polished offensively. Simmons seems stronger and is a better rebounder by far. Simmons also has great court vision and is a better passer than Ingram.

I say who goes #1 depends on who is picking, based on team need.

Another PoliticianAgeddon. Everything is either OK or the end of the world. You would think people have no ability to make decisions regarding their health and safety. Oh well, I guess it never changes.

bluedev_92
01-25-2016, 08:58 AM
Luke's shot will return. He is just barely missing on many of his shots. Keep shooting Luke! Bonus is that I also love it when he takes it to the basket. Great dual threat with some nifty moves.

Furniture
01-25-2016, 09:10 AM
If my memory serves me correctly in the past when three point shooters have not been hot K has pulled them from the game. With Luke, K has kept him in and he has kept on shooting. Obviously K doesn't really have much choice and can't send him to the bench but he could tell him to stop shooting the three after three is four tries.

Troublemaker
01-25-2016, 09:52 AM
Another PoliticianAgeddon. Everything is either OK or the end of the world. You would think people have no ability to make decisions regarding their health and safety. Oh well, I guess it never changes.

I assume you didn't mean to post this here (especially not as a reply to Ferry's post), but I'm also not quite sure which thread this belongs to. The snow thread?

Also, can someone start the game thread for Miami? I would've done so myself but I'm a superstitious kook, and Duke recently lost one that I started. (Ignore the implication that I'll blame the thread starter if Duke loses to Miami tonight :-)

kAzE
01-25-2016, 10:09 AM
I still think Simmons is the clear choice at #1. That's a guy who you can run a NBA offense through. Brandon may always be a better outside shooter, but anytime you have a 6'10" guy who can dribble, pass, and rebound like Ben Simmons, he's the pick. He's a power forward who can play point guard. Not trying to set unrealistic expectations for him, but comps that come to mind are Blake Griffin, LeBron, and Magic Johnson. Big guys who have those skills are HIGHLY coveted. He's not even having the best year he could have. Imagine if he was on our team with our shooters. He'd very likely approach a triple double every game.

Also, I don't think his shot is broken. He's a 73% free throw shooter. With NBA shooting coaches, I think he will become a serviceable shooter. LeBron has NEVER been a great shooter, and it hasn't ever stopped him from dominating the NBA.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 10:12 AM
I assume you didn't mean to post this here (especially not as a reply to Ferry's post), but I'm also not quite sure which thread this belongs to. The snow thread?

Also, can someone start the game thread for Miami? I would've done so myself but I'm a superstitious kook, and Duke recently lost one that I started. (Ignore the implication that I'll blame the thread starter if Duke loses to Miami tonight :-)

Yea that response was a head scratcher for sure :)

sagegrouse
01-25-2016, 10:45 AM
I assume you didn't mean to post this here (especially not as a reply to Ferry's post), but I'm also not quite sure which thread this belongs to. The snow thread?

Also, can someone start the game thread for Miami? I would've done so myself but I'm a superstitious kook, and Duke recently lost one that I started. (Ignore the implication that I'll blame the thread starter if Duke loses to Miami tonight :-)


Yea that response was a head scratcher for sure :)

Our distinguished counsel, Indoor66, I am sure meant to grab the Furniture post, quoting the NC governor advising everyone to stay home from the game.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 10:48 AM
I still think Simmons is the clear choice at #1. That's a guy who you can run a NBA offense through. Brandon may always be a better outside shooter, but anytime you have a 6'10" guy who can dribble, pass, and rebound like Ben Simmons, he's the pick. He's a power forward who can play point guard. Not trying to set unrealistic expectations for him, but comps that come to mind are Blake Griffin, LeBron, and Magic Johnson. Big guys who have those skills are HIGHLY coveted. He's not even having the best year he could have. Imagine if he was on our team with our shooters. He'd very likely approach a triple double every game.

Also, I don't think his shot is broken. He's a 73% free throw shooter. With NBA shooting coaches, I think he will become a serviceable shooter. LeBron has NEVER been a great shooter, and it hasn't ever stopped him from dominating the NBA.

Yea I don't see Simmons hitting the Griffin/LeBron level. He doesn't seem as athletic as they are. Magic is a decent comp, but Magic was a much better ball handler IMO. Denzel Valentine is on par this season with Simmons in terms of how they play.

kAzE
01-25-2016, 11:08 AM
Yea I don't see Simmons hitting the Griffin/LeBron level. He doesn't seem as athletic as they are. Magic is a decent comp, but Magic was a much better ball handler IMO. Denzel Valentine is on par this season with Simmons in terms of how they play.

Really? I think he's much better than Griffin, especially on defense. He's also more athletic than Griffin, at least from these measurements:

Simmons (Official college measurements)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 240
Wingspan: 7' 0.25"
Standing Reach: 9' 0.5"
No Step Vert: 37.0
Max Vert: 41.5

Griffin (2009 NBA Draft Combine)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 248
Wingspan: 6' 11.25"
Standing Reach: 8' 9"
No Step Vert: 32.0
Max Vert: 35.5

I'd say without a doubt, at least on paper, he's more skilled and is a better prospect than Blake was. Denzel Valentine is 6'6", there's no way he can compete at the next level like Simmons will be able to. Simmons is already averaging almost 5 more rebounds per game than Valentine at THIS level.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 11:12 AM
Really? I think he's much better than Griffin, especially on defense. He's also more athletic than Griffin, at least from these measurements:

Simmons (Official college measurements)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 240
Wingspan: 7' 0.25"
Standing Reach: 9' 0.5"
No Step Vert: 37.0
Max Vert: 41.5

Griffin (2009 NBA Draft Combine)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 248
Wingspan: 6' 11.25"
Standing Reach: 8' 9"
No Step Vert: 32.0
Max Vert: 35.5

I'd say without a doubt, at least on paper, he's more skilled and is a better prospect than Blake was. Denzel Valentine is 6'6", there's no way he can compete at the next level like Simmons will be able to.

I didn't look at the combine stuff. I was just going on what I've seen in games from Griffin and Simmons. Griffin seems to attack the rim more ferociously than Simmons. Simmons tends to finesse the ball in. That won't work as well at the next level, as players are stronger and more athletic.

However, a good comp is the fact that Griffin was a pretty poor shooter going in to the NBA and now has 3 point range. Players can indeed develop shooting in the NBA.

kAzE
01-25-2016, 11:17 AM
I didn't look at the combine stuff. I was just going on what I've seen in games from Griffin and Simmons. Griffin seems to attack the rim more ferociously than Simmons. Simmons tends to finesse the ball in. That won't work as well at the next level, as players are stronger and more athletic.

However, a good comp is the fact that Griffin was a pretty poor shooter going in to the NBA and now has 3 point range. Players can indeed develop shooting in the NBA.

Yeah, Blake does tend to attack the rim ferociously (Grayson is very Blake-like in that respect), but it doesn't mean he jumps higher or is any faster. No matter how hard you dunk it, it's still 2 points :)

Just watch these highlights (from 1 game): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZozP97PwwE

There's just no way this guy isn't a star at the next level. His ability to handle the ball like a guard at 6'10" is just spectacular.

FerryFor50
01-25-2016, 11:21 AM
Yeah, Blake does tend to attack the rim ferociously (Grayson is very Blake-like in that respect), but it doesn't mean he jumps higher or is any faster. No matter how hard you dunk it, it's still 2 points :)

Just watch these highlights (from 1 game): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZozP97PwwE

There's just no way this guy isn't a star at the next level. His ability to handle the ball like a guard at 6'10" is just spectacular.

Oh he's definitely a great ball handler. But he struggled a bit against Kentucky, which has more talent than Vandy.

Indoor66
01-25-2016, 11:27 AM
I assume you didn't mean to post this here (especially not as a reply to Ferry's post), but I'm also not quite sure which thread this belongs to. The snow thread?

Also, can someone start the game thread for Miami? I would've done so myself but I'm a superstitious kook, and Duke recently lost one that I started. (Ignore the implication that I'll blame the thread starter if Duke loses to Miami tonight :-)

Oops. It was meant for the thread about the Gov & Swoff the Cheat recommending no-show for the Duke-State BB Game Sunday.

luburch
01-25-2016, 11:38 AM
Really? I think he's much better than Griffin, especially on defense. He's also more athletic than Griffin, at least from these measurements:

Simmons (Official college measurements)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 240
Wingspan: 7' 0.25"
Standing Reach: 9' 0.5"
No Step Vert: 37.0
Max Vert: 41.5

Griffin (2009 NBA Draft Combine)
Height w/Shoes: 6' 10"
Weight: 248
Wingspan: 6' 11.25"
Standing Reach: 8' 9"
No Step Vert: 32.0
Max Vert: 35.5

I'd say without a doubt, at least on paper, he's more skilled and is a better prospect than Blake was. Denzel Valentine is 6'6", there's no way he can compete at the next level like Simmons will be able to. Simmons is already averaging almost 5 more rebounds per game than Valentine at THIS level.

FWIW, I'm not sure only citing combine stats is a fair measure of athleticism. For example:

Cody Zeller (2013 NBA Draft Combine)
Height w/Shoes: 7' 0.25"
Weight: 230
Wingspan: 6' 10.75"
Standing Reach: 8' 10"
No Step Vert: 35.5
Max Vert: 37.5

Even though Zeller has better measurements, I would argue Griffin is more athletic, certainly more explosive. It's a tough conversation to have.

Either way, I think Simmons and Ingram are both going to be good at the next level. :)

May have gotten a bit off topic from the NC State game.

kAzE
01-25-2016, 11:43 AM
Oh he's definitely a great ball handler. But he struggled a bit against Kentucky, which has more talent than Vandy.

He picked up 2 early fouls and sat much of the first half, but he still had a double double in 26 minutes and they won the game by 18. He shot 5 for 5 from the field and had 14 points, 10 boards, 3 assists, 2 steals, and a block. I wouldn't say he struggled at all. I'd actually say he dominated. But yes, we need to get back to talking about the NC State game :)