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View Full Version : Unsettling comments from announcers about Syracuse's/Boeheim's forfeited wins



trinity92
01-19-2016, 12:36 PM
Did anyone notice the announcers at the beginning of last night's game discussing Boeheim's record? I forget exact words (and honestly I don't know who exactly was announcing), but it was something to the effect of "Boeheim has 9xx wins, but if you don't count those forfeited games, then his total is only 8xx wins." To my mind, Boeheim only has one record, and that's the one that does not include forfeited wins. I got a shiver from that tone, and am concerned that if this is how an announcer thinks, then it could be a foreshadowing of how Carolina and Roy could be treated. Even if the NCAA hands down the type of banner-removing, win-forfeiting penalties we feel they deserve, is it conceivable the announcers, publications and general basketball world other than us and NCSU would treat UNC's title count as "5*" rather than "3"?

Apologies if this was discussed in game chat, but I haven't seen any mention of it in the game threads.

PackMan97
01-19-2016, 12:46 PM
Did anyone notice the announcers at the beginning of last night's game discussing Boeheim's record? I forget exact words (and honestly I don't know who exactly was announcing), but it was something to the effect of "Boeheim has 9xx wins, but if you don't count those forfeited games, then his total is only 8xx wins." To my mind, Boeheim only has one record, and that's the one that does not include forfeited wins. I got a shiver from that tone, and am concerned that if this is how an announcer thinks, then it could be a foreshadowing of how Carolina and Roy could be treated. Even if the NCAA hands down the type of banner-removing, win-forfeiting penalties we feel they deserve, is it conceivable the announcers, publications and general basketball world other than us and NCSU would treat UNC's title count as "5*" rather than "3"?

Apologies if this was discussed in game chat, but I haven't seen any mention of it in the game threads.

Those games can't be unplayed. For those that watched those wins, they can't be unwon. One team won that night and one team lost. It doesn't matter what the official record says, for those that were there we remember the history.

It's mearly a historical record and Americans don't give two rat's bottoms about history.

This is why UNC needs to be nuked GOING FORWARD. Because that is the only "real" penalty.

Lar77
01-19-2016, 12:57 PM
I agree with PackMan. Even if unc gets hammered, the tar heel faithful will still claim six titles. They might even leave a noticeable space in the rafters or hang a commemorative banner of game results and date without a claim of championship.
The only real punishment will be stomp them into dust going forward.

oldnavy
01-19-2016, 12:59 PM
I agree with PackMan. Even if unc gets hammered, the tar heel faithful will still claim six titles. They might even leave a noticeable space in the rafters or hang a commemorative banner of game results and date without a claim of championship.
The only real punishment will be stomp them into dust going forward.

Or they will get "Tasty Cakes" to convene a panel and vote them back the banners and hang them next to the 1924 mythical championship banner....

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 01:06 PM
If the asterisk is mentioned, I have no problem with them stating "what could've been."

Based on how I've seen the Fab Five mentioned in TV graphics and by announcers over the years, the asterisk is usually present / mentioned.

That's good enough for me. Imagine how upset you would be if a TV graphic listed Duke with 5 championships but with an asterisk denoting that 2 titles were vacated.

CrazyNotCrazie
01-19-2016, 01:49 PM
The announcer was Sean McDonough (a Syracuse alum). There are a lot of Syracuse alums who are sports broadcasters and I have never noticed one showing bias, but last night, I noticed it on several occasions. First was the comment about the forfeited wins noted above. I tend to agree that if you were at the game and your team won, that's all that matters, and forfeiting games retroactively doesn't really do much. But his tone about it was very snarky.

Secondly, there was one foul call in particularly where a Duke player drove into the lane and they called a foul on Syracuse. It likely was not a very good call, but again, his tone was very negative in a way that really stood out to me. Announcers frequently disagree with foul calls (that is their job) but he sounded like he was almost personally offended.

swood1000
01-19-2016, 01:53 PM
Did anyone notice the announcers at the beginning of last night's game discussing Boeheim's record? I forget exact words (and honestly I don't know who exactly was announcing), but it was something to the effect of "Boeheim has 9xx wins, but if you don't count those forfeited games, then his total is only 8xx wins." To my mind, Boeheim only has one record, and that's the one that does not include forfeited wins. I got a shiver from that tone, and am concerned that if this is how an announcer thinks, then it could be a foreshadowing of how Carolina and Roy could be treated. Even if the NCAA hands down the type of banner-removing, win-forfeiting penalties we feel they deserve, is it conceivable the announcers, publications and general basketball world other than us and NCSU would treat UNC's title count as "5*" rather than "3"?

Apologies if this was discussed in game chat, but I haven't seen any mention of it in the game threads.
I think that when people hear that some of the wins were vacated they don't assume that those vacated wins were "really" wins that were vacated without good reason, but that the coach/team engaged in some reprehensible conduct, and if they want to keep announcing that in perpetuity, every time they talk about a team/coach's record, it's OK with me.

trinity92
01-19-2016, 02:01 PM
if they want to keep announcing that in perpetuity, every time they talk about a team/coach's record, it's OK with me.

Good point. Hadn't thought of it that way.

wsb3
01-19-2016, 02:09 PM
Vacating victories is one thing..vacating National Championships as part of those vacated victories is another. I don't care how Carolina fans spin it..If those Nat. Championships are stripped because of cheating as they should I will take that as punishment over anything going forward...

We expect UNC fans to act any other way.. This from a fan base that tries to sell the notion that Roy didn't know, Dean didn't know, or that it did not begin on his watch. Regardless of the emails, the power point presentation, the concrete evidence there will be but a handful of UNC fans that will ever admit they did wrong & we have seen what has happened to the few who dared to admit the truth.

It is the Carolina Way.

BTW they should strip 93 as well. But no one will touch the sainted Dean.

Tom B.
01-19-2016, 02:18 PM
The announcer was Sean McDonough (a Syracuse alum). There are a lot of Syracuse alums who are sports broadcasters and I have never noticed one showing bias, but last night, I noticed it on several occasions. First was the comment about the forfeited wins noted above. I tend to agree that if you were at the game and your team won, that's all that matters, and forfeiting games retroactively doesn't really do much. But his tone about it was very snarky.

Secondly, there was one foul call in particularly where a Duke player drove into the lane and they called a foul on Syracuse. It likely was not a very good call, but again, his tone was very negative in a way that really stood out to me. Announcers frequently disagree with foul calls (that is their job) but he sounded like he was almost personally offended.


Another play (and call) that drew a snarky response from McDonough last night -- in the first half, a Syracuse player (can't remember which one) drove to the basket but was called for an offensive foul. The Duke player (I think it was Ingram) didn't "draw a charge" in the conventional sense, but the Syracuse player clearly extended his arm to clear his way. On the replay (which they showed two or three times), McDonough said something like, "Hmm...well...I guess there was contact there somewhere..." Um, yeah, like the Syracuse player hitting Ingram in the throat with his forearm.

weezie
01-19-2016, 02:25 PM
...but he sounded like he was almost personally offended.

I, too, have been personally offended, very personally and infuriatingly offended by the tone used by those idiots last night and the lack of checks on refs during the season. We're always admonished not the criticize the refs, not to fall back on whining but geez-o-pete, bad horrible calls are coming up more and more often this season in every game, albeit I'm looking mostly at ACC, Big Twelve-ity and the Pac 12. The new rules are clearly not being communicated correctly to the players and the refs are blowing their little tiny hearts out. Maybe just stop all defensive set ups and chuck it up for two hours. Two hours of horse, there ya' go..

And ps, we have a Sony sound bar on a Samsung tv; if you put the sound onto "movie" setting, it does a great job dampening Vitale and upping crowd noise. Could barely make out his blathering....I would likely have been even more tragically offended.

BigWayne
01-19-2016, 02:51 PM
Those games can't be unplayed. For those that watched those wins, they can't be unwon. One team won that night and one team lost. It doesn't matter what the official record says, for those that were there we remember the history.

It's mearly a historical record and Americans don't give two rat's bottoms about history.

This is why UNC needs to be nuked GOING FORWARD. Because that is the only "real" penalty.

Direct evidence of the phenomenon you mention from the Syracuse camp. (http://www.syracuse.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/01/jim_boeheim_syracuse_basketball_ncaa_972_wins_and_ counting_editorial.html)

We don't accept the NCAA's Orwellian math. You shouldn't, either.

Kedsy
01-19-2016, 03:38 PM
Those games can't be unplayed. For those that watched those wins, they can't be unwon. One team won that night and one team lost. It doesn't matter what the official record says, for those that were there we remember the history.

It's mearly a historical record and Americans don't give two rat's bottoms about history.

This is why UNC needs to be nuked GOING FORWARD. Because that is the only "real" penalty.

I completely agree with PackMan. Very few people think John Calipari didn't go to the Final Four with UMass and Memphis (probably because he did go; I was there both times and saw him on the sidelines). In fact, I spoke once with some Memphis fans and they're pretty sure their team went to three Final Fours, even though two of them were vacated. Villanova fans all believe their 1971 team played in the championship game, despite the Howard Porter shenanigans and subsequent vacation of wins.

If UNC has to take some banners down, most people will still count them as having won five national championships. The only true punishments in NCAA-land are $$$ and future penalties.

sagegrouse
01-19-2016, 03:44 PM
And ps, we have a Sony sound bar on a Samsung tv; if you put the sound onto "movie" setting, it does a great job dampening Vitale and upping crowd noise. Could barely make out his blathering...I would likely have been even more tragically offended.

I think Dick Vitale has improved a bit now that he is no longer lead announcer for ESPN (Bilas is). He is somewhat calmer -- more humble? Well.... I thought he had Duke figured outlast night -- "Get the ball to Allen" was his refrain -- and he was right. Grayson did not get the ball nearly enough, and he was our most potent offensive force.

PackMan97
01-19-2016, 03:49 PM
If UNC has to take some banners down, most people will still count them as having won five national championships. The only true punishments in NCAA-land are $$$ and future penalties.

I don't want the banners to come down, what I want is for them to stay up with a huge "CHEATED" slapped over it. Something like this, but with the red X replaced by the word "CHEATED" taking up the entire diaganol of the banner.

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af306/wcaxberg/banners_zps63889bbf.jpg

Indoor66
01-19-2016, 04:28 PM
I don't want the banners to come down, what I want is for them to stay up with a huge "CHEATED" slapped over it. Something like this, but with the red X replaced by the word "CHEATED" taking up the entire diaganol of the banner.

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af306/wcaxberg/banners_zps63889bbf.jpg

And the attendance would be at about that level, as well. :cool:

Olympic Fan
01-19-2016, 07:27 PM
Just to point to precedent:

The NCAA has never pulled a championship banner, but it has come close. Michigan was ORDERED by the NCAA to pull down banners for the 1992 and 1993 Final Fours that were hanging in Crisler Arena, along with a banner for the 1997 NIT title and another for the 1998 Big Ten title. Jalen Rose raised a stink about in 2012 and tried to get the banners returned, but without success:

http://www.annarbor.com/sports/um-basketball/michigan-unsure-if-fab-five-banners-can-actually-be-replaced-not-opposed-to-alternate-means-of-celeb/

Memphis also lost its 2009 Final Four banner

The NCAA also raised a stink when Kentucky celebrated John Calipari's 500th win in 2011. When the NCAA objected, Kentucky tried to ignore it and argue that those 500 wins did happen. The NCAA ORDERED Kentucky acknowledge his 42 vacated wins and to report the official total in the future. Kentucky backed down:

http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/uk-basketball-men/article44104032.html

devilirium
01-19-2016, 08:55 PM
The announcer was Sean McDonough (a Syracuse alum). There are a lot of Syracuse alums who are sports broadcasters and I have never noticed one showing bias, but last night, I noticed it on several occasions. First was the comment about the forfeited wins noted above. I tend to agree that if you were at the game and your team won, that's all that matters, and forfeiting games retroactively doesn't really do much. But his tone about it was very snarky.

Secondly, there was one foul call in particularly where a Duke player drove into the lane and they called a foul on Syracuse. It likely was not a very good call, but again, his tone was very negative in a way that really stood out to me. Announcers frequently disagree with foul calls (that is their job) but he sounded like he was almost personally offended.


In agreement with this. I happened to like McDonough as a knowledgeable play by play guy, but I also noticed that he was a tad overboard last nite. He does seem to err in tone at times against Duke in hoops.

That being said, "Costabile with the lead, charging for the net...he scores" remains one of my favorite calls that he has made, and he has been complimentary of Duke in various segments otherwise.

wsb3
01-20-2016, 07:31 AM
Memphis also lost its 2009 Final Four banner



For one bogus SAT score. How much more should the Heels get hammered for twenty years of bogus classes?

wavedukefan70s
01-20-2016, 09:00 AM
I don't want the banners to come down, what I want is for them to stay up with a huge "CHEATED" slapped over it. Something like this, but with the red X replaced by the word "CHEATED" taking up the entire diaganol of the banner.

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af306/wcaxberg/banners_zps63889bbf.jpg

Thank you for my first laugh of the day!

elvis14
01-20-2016, 10:15 AM
Did anyone notice the announcers at the beginning of last night's game discussing Boeheim's record? I forget exact words (and honestly I don't know who exactly was announcing), but it was something to the effect of "Boeheim has 9xx wins, but if you don't count those forfeited games, then his total is only 8xx wins." To my mind, Boeheim only has one record, and that's the one that does not include forfeited wins. I got a shiver from that tone, and am concerned that if this is how an announcer thinks, then it could be a foreshadowing of how Carolina and Roy could be treated. Even if the NCAA hands down the type of banner-removing, win-forfeiting penalties we feel they deserve, is it conceivable the announcers, publications and general basketball world other than us and NCSU would treat UNC's title count as "5*" rather than "3"?

Apologies if this was discussed in game chat, but I haven't seen any mention of it in the game threads.

I noticed the comment as well and didn't appreciate the tone. I also noticed the bias on the foul call. Hearing that it was a 'cuse alum....it all makes sense now.

Sir Stealth
01-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Even though the games can't be unplayed, I think that it is still significant punishment to have the fact that you forfeited wins brought up every time someone states your record. That is a pretty bad stink to have to carry around, so I don't have a problem with both win totals being mentioned, as long as the forfeited total is included. Vitale's response was actually much worse than McDonough's - he said something to the effect of, "To me, there's only one real total, and that's the 972 (or however many it is)." So basically spitting in the face of the idea that Boeheim deserved punishment at all or that the punishment means anything.

As for how much "vacating" actually affects a program or how they count their accomplishments, I think that Carolina is in a different category. Nobody knows how many Final Fours a school like Memphis has been to - all that really sticks is the idea that they have been a nationally relevant program heard from in the postseason, and retroactively taking wins or banners isn't going to change that. But Carolina is all about the banners. They are obsessed with them - they know that the iconic image of their program is the volume of stuff hanging up in the Dome. That's why they hang fake title banners and "honored" jerseys. And if you are in consideration for best program ever, memories of past victories aren't enough: losing wins and titles matters when history judges where you measure up. Most importantly of all, Carolina also has the unique circumstance of the archrivalry with a close competitor. Every win, banner, title, etc. is going to be lined up against Duke for who has more and is the better program. This was the motivation for implementing the most advanced level of academic fraud that has ever been uncovered, and this is the motivation for fighting tooth and nail to deny and deflect any charges.

Carolina's punishment should damage their ability to compete in future seasons, because the program does need to suffer on the court consequences that hurting the record books can't touch. But for targeting the source of the scandal and the true (black) heart of the program, the wins need to be vacated and the banners must come down. And if the announcer wants to explain how much they would have had if they hadn't been found guilty of the worst academic scandal in history, that's fine by me.

Indoor66
01-20-2016, 11:50 AM
For one bogus SAT score. How much more should the Heels get hammered for twenty years of bogus classes?

I've said it before: Burn the damn place to the ground and sow the ground with salt so nothing ever grows there again. Even that is a deficient punishment. :mad::mad::mad:

Indoor66
01-20-2016, 11:55 AM
Even though the games can't be unplayed, I think that it is still significant punishment to have the fact that you forfeited wins brought up every time someone states your record. That is a pretty bad stink to have to carry around, so I don't have a problem with both win totals being mentioned, as long as the forfeited total is included. Vitale's response was actually much worse than McDonough's - he said something to the effect of, "To me, there's only one real total, and that's the 972 (or however many it is)." So basically spitting in the face of the idea that Boeheim deserved punishment at all or that the punishment means anything.

As for how much "vacating" actually affects a program or how they count their accomplishments, I think that Carolina is in a different category. Nobody knows how many Final Fours a school like Memphis has been to - all that really sticks is the idea that they have been a nationally relevant program heard from in the postseason, and retroactively taking wins or banners isn't going to change that. But Carolina is all about the banners. They are obsessed with them - they know that the iconic image of their program is the volume of stuff hanging up in the Dome. That's why they hang fake title banners and "honored" jerseys. And if you are in consideration for best program ever, memories of past victories aren't enough: losing wins and titles matters when history judges where you measure up. Most importantly of all, Carolina also has the unique circumstance of the archrivalry with a close competitor. Every win, banner, title, etc. is going to be lined up against Duke for who has more and is the better program. This was the motivation for implementing the most advanced level of academic fraud that has ever been uncovered, and this is the motivation for fighting tooth and nail to deny and deflect any charges.

Carolina's punishment should damage their ability to compete in future seasons, because the program does need to suffer on the court consequences that hurting the record books can't touch. But for targeting the source of the scandal and the true (black) heart of the program, the wins need to be vacated and the banners must come down. And if the announcer wants to explain how much they would have had if they hadn't been found guilty of the worst academic scandal in history, that's fine by me.

I really like your post. I agree completely. They MUST be made to load the banners and trophies and wins in a Helms Bread Truck and return them to someone who deserves them.

swood1000
01-20-2016, 12:26 PM
...If UNC has to take some banners down, most people will still count them as having won five national championships. The only true punishments in NCAA-land are $$$ and future penalties.
People who watched UNC win those championships may not be able to unload those images from their minds. And those partial to UNC will always think of themselves as unfairly punished, similar to what you will find if you go to a prison and take a survey to find out how many prisoners feel that they were fairly punished. Anybody who won't be content until the criminal wears a hairshirt and dolefully acknowledges his guilt is just looking at things the wrong way. UNC will suffer in the same way as the criminal released from prison suffers. Any time he pretends to be an upstanding citizen he will be reminded that he is a convicted felon. I think that those in the future who didn't watch them win those championships will be much less likely to count them as having won them, or more likely to count the championships as having been won illegitimately.

Olympic Fan
01-20-2016, 12:50 PM
I really like your post. I agree completely. They MUST be made to load the banners and trophies and wins in a Helms Bread Truck and return them to someone who deserves them.

I wish that could happen -- Illinois in 2005 and Michigan State in 2009 deserve those national championship banners. Don't know what they would do about the '93 NCAA banner -- the team they beat, Michigan has been forced to vacate its 2nd-place finish ... could Kansas (coached by Roy Williams) and Kentucky (coached by Rick Pitino) -- the two third-place teams -- get together for an alumni game to determine the true champion?

Duke would also get the 1998 ACC championship. Jeff Jones and Virginia would get the 1994 ACC title ... ol' Herb Sendek would also win a banner for the 1997 ACC title!

Ahhh ... it's nice to think about. But that's not how the NCAA rules work. Guilty teams are punished by "vacating" their wins, not "forfeiting" those games. Under the current format, when a season or a stretch of games is vacated, the losses stay on the record and all wins are wiped out -- but the teams they beat don't get credit for the wins.