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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 62, Syracuse 64 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-18-2016, 08:52 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here - and remember, no venting!

Les Grossman
01-18-2016, 08:52 PM
and...first?

rsvman
01-18-2016, 08:53 PM
what just happened? I don't understand the last 30-ish seconds of that game at all. am I living in an alternate universe?

Lulu
01-18-2016, 08:53 PM
We are too tired to play defense. Can't rebound w/o Jefferson. Better start adjusting.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 08:54 PM
Sounds the alarms...we are officially in full meltdown.

fuse
01-18-2016, 08:54 PM
Where ever the D went, the offense has followed.

Sure seemed like a lot of heart and effort without results.

Next play.

cruxer
01-18-2016, 08:54 PM
More guys will have to play. 6 is not enough.

duke79
01-18-2016, 08:54 PM
UGH........three losses in a row. Too many missed shots in the first half and a porous defense.

DukeWarhead
01-18-2016, 08:55 PM
Thank goodness we won a national championship last season. 'Cuz this is lame. Very lame. I need to go back to last season's DVRd games and just watch those for the next two months. :mad:

luburch
01-18-2016, 08:55 PM
Why did Thornton continue to play full court defense and get blown by almost every time?

Furniture
01-18-2016, 08:56 PM
We are too tired to play defense. Can't rebound w/o Jefferson. Better start adjusting.

But....they only scored 64. If you can't score you can't win. We didn't rebound well but the main problem was that we could not score. One dimensional because of the Orange zone...

lmb
01-18-2016, 08:56 PM
No adjustment to beat the zone. Watching them pass around the perimeter for 25 seconds and launch up threes was frustrating.

rsvman
01-18-2016, 08:57 PM
It was all about the offensive rebounds that Syracuse got. that was the main thing.

Dukehky
01-18-2016, 08:57 PM
This one was on K in my opinion offensively. It was clear we weren't hitting from deep and we have the ultimate zone buster in Ingram. Not once did he catch the ball at the free throw line. He didn't even look to get the ball there. That was a missed opportunity, and a bad one. Syracuse is a bad team that we couldn't beat.

Not making the tournament is a real possibility if we don't get 21 back and soon.

duke4ever19
01-18-2016, 08:57 PM
I was going to take solace by watching a great Warriors vs. Cavs game and then I glanced at the score . . .

azzefkram
01-18-2016, 08:57 PM
A great game by MP3, everyone else... not so much.

Dukehky
01-18-2016, 08:58 PM
Why did Thornton continue to play full court defense and get blown by almost every time?

That was another huge schematic problem. We got torched for a lay up or three every time.

kmspeaks
01-18-2016, 08:58 PM
Assuming what we saw was actually the plan on offense, this one's on the coaches. No real effort to get the ball to Ingram (or anyone) at the foul line and very few attempts to screen the zone to create penetration.

The official in the middle of the screen put his arm up to call a foul on the last play. How is there not at least a discussion amongst the crew about whether there was an attempted shot and if the foul occurred before time ran out? That was poorly handled.

6th Man
01-18-2016, 08:59 PM
At a loss for words on this one. Offensive glass against us is unreal! Plumlee played his heart out. Going to be a fight to make the tournament now. Schedule is heavy on the back. Really bad loss at home tonight. Costly.

wsb3
01-18-2016, 09:01 PM
I thought with ten minutes to go we were toast & would lose by ten. I just did not think we had any legs. This team is worn out & sadly there is no bench to develop. The big plays where Syracuse got offensive rebounds & converted them to 3's had to kill Amile to sit & watch that. Knowing he probably could have been the difference.

Kudos to Thornton for a couple of huge 3's to give us a chance.

Our margin of error is very thin & Luke can't shoot 0 for whatever & a Cuse player can't set a record with 12 offensive rebounds. I am amazed we even were in a position to win.

MP3 you are all heart. What a performance. How far you have come since your freshman days.

Duke 2015 National Champs..

downeastdad
01-18-2016, 09:01 PM
Very disappointing. I may be pretty naive, but I thought the way to beat a 2-3 was to get a guy to the foul line area, and get him the ball. Didn't see it once, only whipping up 3's, and Marshall, who played his heart out. Everyone else, not so much.
ded

NYBri
01-18-2016, 09:02 PM
This one was on K in my opinion offensively. It was clear we weren't hitting from deep and we have the ultimate zone buster in Ingram. Not once did he catch the ball at the free throw line. He didn't even look to get the ball there. That was a missed opportunity, and a bad one. Syracuse is a bad team that we couldn't beat.

Not making the tournament is a real possibility if we don't get 21 back and soon.

Agree. Ingram, the zone buster at the high zone, was nowhere to be found.

DUKIE V(A)
01-18-2016, 09:02 PM
1. Great game by Plumlee.
2. Was surprised we didn't keep a guy in the middle offensively. Perhaps getting Kennard in the middle where he is very effective would have gotten him going.
3. Feel like the "token" pressure we were attempting up top was causing us problems as Gbinije was blowing by our guys and creating easy looks for himself and others.
4. I realize we all needed to crash the boards but one rule in basketball in never leave a shooter. We were fortunate Cooney missed a few easy ones. He hit at least one big one off an offensive rebound that really hurt us.

AvlDukie
01-18-2016, 09:03 PM
I am puzzled like everyone else.
But all I do know for sure is that we are still DUKE, and everyone else is not.

Crisker
01-18-2016, 09:03 PM
More guys will have to play. 6 is not enough.

Agree. I was hoping for a patented Coach K pull the rabbit trick this game, but no rabbits were forthcoming. I don't see any other option other than to play Obi/Jeter, whether they are ready or not. How much worse can it be, especially with respect to rebounding?

Furniture
01-18-2016, 09:05 PM
This one was on K in my opinion offensively. It was clear we weren't hitting from deep and we have the ultimate zone buster in Ingram. Not once did he catch the ball at the free throw line. He didn't even look to get the ball there. That was a missed opportunity, and a bad one. Syracuse is a bad team that we couldn't beat.

Not making the tournament is a real possibility if we don't get 21 back and soon.

I agree. I also think the teams confidence is rattled and to be honest I don't think last weeks presser helped.
"We are a good team, but we are just not that good" to me you might think that but you never say it.

Kfanarmy
01-18-2016, 09:05 PM
Kennard has to show up. Good lord he had two fistfuls of missed open shots.

I don't mind Thornton getting blow by, but he just trailed the play at that point. At least three Syracuse threes came because he went nowhere after his man passed him up. Sprint to the three point shooter rather than following the play!

porkpa
01-18-2016, 09:06 PM
These kids are just too tired playing thirty plus minutes a game. They are playing their hearts out, but they just run out of gas in the second half. The only way our bench, what there is of it, is going to get better is if they play a little. They aren't going to get better sitting on their butts. They may not, even then. But playing them a little will at least give our six guys a chance to get a blow occasionally. As good as Luke was shooting on Saturday is as bad as he was tonight.

CameronDuke
01-18-2016, 09:06 PM
Where do I start? Marshall gave his best effort and aside from getting outworked by Roberson on Cuse's offensive glass several times, he played a fine game. But 10-37 from 3? Is that the most 3s Duke has ever attempted in a game? It's gotta be close to the record. We flashed Amile to the free throw line routinely to beat the zone at Cuse a few years ago and it actually worked pretty well. Why not try to utilize Ingram in that role? Also, why not try the 1-3-1 zone more on defense? We couldn't do much worse on giving up offensive rebounds. I don't know why we didn't try a zone more.

We simply have limited depth without Jefferson. The guys are trying as hard as they can but our margin of error is so small to win right now. Saturday is now a near must win in Raleigh at NC State to get our ship set on the right path to right the season.

Let's go Duke!

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 09:07 PM
F&*# !!!!

The upcoming schedule is a beast lord....AND we look tired playing 6 guys


@ NCST
@ Mia
@ GT
NCST
LOU
UVA
@ UNC
@ LOU
FSU
@Pitt
Wake
UNC

I don't see ANY easy-ish wins aside from maybe Wake and NCST. Considering the last three games, we are in perhaps the biggest dog fight of K's career.

It seems like we went from fringe top-5 to fringe NIT team in a matter of two weeks.

Devilwin
01-18-2016, 09:07 PM
It was obvious to me Jones was attempting a prayer shot when he got fouled. In that case, he should have been awarded three free throws. Bad night out. Kennard was brick city all night, Allen and Plumlee did most of the work. MP3 was great, but if Amile don't come back and quick, this team will be watching the NCAAS instead of playing in it. It's been years since I have had zero confidence in a Duke team, but this one is just flat out bad...:mad:

Dukeface88
01-18-2016, 09:08 PM
2pt: 52%
3pt: 27%
3pt attempts of total shot: 60%


I think this pretty much says it all.

DukeDevil
01-18-2016, 09:09 PM
I just couldn't understand why we kept sticking with the "pass around the arc for 25 seconds then panic and chuck one up or suddenly try a failed drive that the opposing team knows is coming because there's no time left on the shot clock" offense. This was a tough game to watch and swallow. The only bright point was plumlee taking charge, but nobody else would respond to his effort. When we needed stops in the last 2 minutes, we instead allowed them to score on nearly every possession. I could go on for a while about the refs in the last few minutes but we lost this well before that.

All that being said...I really didn't feel that this was Syracuse being a good team, we were just playing THAT badly. Just tough to watch. I'll go ahead and say it, we deserve to be unranked at this point. Maybe seeing the ranking disappear will make this team realize they have to earn their stripes, and not just live off the name on the front of the uniform. I still have hope for this team, it's just getting a little hard to keep it.

Doria
01-18-2016, 09:09 PM
Taken as a three-game stretch, all our negatives feel very consistent, and our positives frustratingly inconsistent. Not much else to say. Thought our defense was a bit better in the first half, but the second half promptly made me forget why I thought that.

xdev
01-18-2016, 09:11 PM
Generally teams can't run a windshield wiper offense against a zone, they have to penetrate with either a drive or a pass. You might get a lob here and there, but mostly an offense has to puncture the middle then kick it and attack the scrambling defense (or score, but Syracuse collapses fairly quickly on post ups.) I was a bit surprised they never used Ingram at the FT line against the Orange zone.

On the bright side, as hard it is to see right now, if Marshall can continue to give this kind of effort, Duke could be a very good team once Amile returns. I believe Duke will become the dominant rather than the dominated team on the glass with Jefferson and Plumlee manning the post positions.

lotusland
01-18-2016, 09:12 PM
I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.!!!!!!!!!!

MaxAMillion
01-18-2016, 09:13 PM
I just couldn't understand why we kept sticking with the "pass around the arc for 25 seconds then panic and chuck one up or suddenly try a failed drive that the opposing team knows is coming because there's no time left on the shot clock" offense. This was a tough game to watch and swallow. The only bright point was plumlee taking charge, but nobody else would respond to his effort. When we needed stops in the last 2 minutes, we instead allowed them to score on nearly every possession. I could go on for a while about the refs in the last few minutes but we lost this well before that.

All that being said...I really didn't feel that this was Syracuse being a good team, we were just playing THAT badly. Just tough to watch. I'll go ahead and say it, we deserve to be unranked at this point. Maybe seeing the ranking disappear will make this team realize they have to earn their stripes, and not just live off the name on the front of the uniform. I still have hope for this team, it's just getting a little hard to keep it.

This team is not trying to live off of anything. They simply are not that good and there is no depth. These freshmen are being asked to play extended minutes night after night and they don't look ready. There is no point guard and little leadership. Without Jefferson, this is a team that will be lucky to make the tournament.

arnie
01-18-2016, 09:16 PM
I agree. I also think the teams confidence is rattled and to be honest I don't think last weeks presser helped.
"We are a good team, but we are just not that good" to me you might think that but you never say it.

But I don't think we're even a good ACC team. A good team can find a way to play better when it's missing 1 of 10 available scholarship players. I think K is right to lower expectations and at this point, we aren't looking like a sure fire tourney team. The easy part of the ACC schedule is about over, either they collectively step up or losing ACC record is very possible.

vrob90
01-18-2016, 09:17 PM
Hope now seems to rest entirely on Jefferson. If that view had been expressed at the beginning of the season, it would have seemed preposterous.

MaxAMillion
01-18-2016, 09:17 PM
Agree. I was hoping for a patented Coach K pull the rabbit trick this game, but no rabbits were forthcoming. I don't see any other option other than to play Obi/Jeter, whether they are ready or not. How much worse can it be, especially with respect to rebounding?

Did you watch K play Jeter a couple of games ago where he fouled out in like 5 minutes of play? He is not ready to play ACC basketball. You can try Obi if you want but he doesn't look like a major college player either.

I think there were a couple of incorrect evaluations of Jeter and Obi (at least being able to help this year). I am just wondering how things will get fixed next season. Where will the rebounding and interior defense come from? Who will be the team leader or leaders who can lead the way on defense. This appears to be the down side of the OAD strategy.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 09:19 PM
It's sooooo irritating watching Duke teams that are light on big men. MP3 is good, but Ingram is too small to play down low.

We are basically playing all guards with one role player big man in the post. And only ONE of those guards is an upperclassman. :(

Damn you UNC with your seemingly endless plethora of legit PFs/Cs.

Saratoga2
01-18-2016, 09:21 PM
It appears that coach K told the guys he wanted aggressive play on the boards. MP3 in particular played very aggressively and hard on both ends and had his best game ever. That part of the game plan worked. He will need to repeat that effort in follow on games.

Our approach to beating the zone was to shoot from 3 and try to feed MP3. Not until very late did Grayson try to drive a couple but that took exceptional effort on his part to score. Generally we got no foul shots except for Marshall. With Luke completely off from 3 our options were limited. Others have noted that we should have had Brandon go to the top of the key to try to hurt the zone. That was never tried. Grayson did heat up and provided needed scoring, but not enough to make up for our shooting woes and lack of rebounding.

Defensively we have trouble stopping penetration. That will be a problem for us throughout the year. I would prefer that MP3 not go out as far as he does at times and try to be a rim protector but he seems to do that as if it is coached. Every quick guard or forward seems to have a career day against us. This was the easier part of the schedule. Where are we headed without Amile? It is not pretty.

The team did play hard and didn't give up, so there is still hope for a better second part of the season.

DUKIE V(A)
01-18-2016, 09:24 PM
1. Great game by Plumlee.
2. Was surprised we didn't keep a guy in the middle offensively. Perhaps getting Kennard in the middle where he is very effective would have gotten him going.
3. Feel like the "token" pressure we were attempting up top was causing us problems as Gbinije was blowing by our guys and creating easy looks for himself and others.
4. I realize we all needed to crash the boards but one rule in basketball in never leave a shooter. We were fortunate Cooney missed a few easy ones. He hit at least one big one off an offensive rebound that really hurt us.

I have a couple more:

5. Once again the crowd seemed extremely lackluster.
6. Matt and Luke 2-18 from 3 and 2-20 overall. Surprising.
7. The passing around the perimeter for 25 seconds left us with bad 3 attempts AND shortened the game. Advantage Syracuse.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 09:25 PM
I would prefer that MP3 not go out as far as he does at times and try to be a rim protector but he seems to do that as if it is coached. Every quick guard or forward seems to have a career day against us. This was the easier part of the schedule. Where are we headed without Amile? It is not pretty.

I've noticed this for a while too. I often see MP3 nearly at the 3pt line as the opposing team starts their attack.

ncexnyc
01-18-2016, 09:25 PM
What's with all of these fair weather fans?

Three losses by a total of 11 points and for some, the world is coming to an end.

As long as the kids play hard night after night the improvement will come, have some faith people.

jv001
01-18-2016, 09:27 PM
I consider defensive rebounding part of playing defense. The defensive stand is not over until the ball is secured. We are really bad with our defensive rebounding. The guards must help out. When you consider Matt and Luke went 2 for 20 shooting, we were lucky to be as close as we were. That's because Grayson and MPIII played their hearts out. Not much else to take from this game. Now we go on the road and we better get our heads out of our behinds and play Duke basketball. Next Play. GoDuke!

TKG
01-18-2016, 09:28 PM
My guess is this will be an all night film session for the coaching staff. They are going to have to be very creative to turn this thing around. The season, in my opinion, is close to slipping away. Not sure Amile's return will be some magical elixir that makes us an Elite 8 team. We are flawed.

luburch
01-18-2016, 09:28 PM
I have a couple more:

5. Once again the crowd seemed extremely lackluster.

Thought the crowd was pretty good. Never quiet on TV. Loud and always chanting something.

CharlestonDave
01-18-2016, 09:29 PM
I am puzzled like everyone else.
But all I do know for sure is that we are still DUKE, and everyone else is not.

What exactly does that mean? Right now we are not a very good team and I am being kind . Last year was last year and this year is this year. Harvard is Harvard , Yale is Yale , Wake Forest is Wake Forest and so on and so on !!! Yes Duke is a great school but there are many great schools in this country .Everyone else is not Harvard , everyone else is not Yale and everyone else is not Wake Forest.

weezie
01-18-2016, 09:30 PM
I have a couple more:

5. Once again the crowd seemed extremely lackluster.


No, sorry. The Crazies were solid. The microphones are always turned up on announcers and crowd muted. It was loud in there and the Crazies tried hard.

The going is now tough. We've got to keep going!

jv001
01-18-2016, 09:33 PM
No, sorry. The Crazies were solid. The microphones are always turned up on announcers and crowd muted. It was loud in there and the Crazies tried hard.

The going is now tough. We've got to keep going!

It's hard to hear the Crazies over Vitale, :cool: GoDuke!

freshmanjs
01-18-2016, 09:34 PM
My guess is this will be an all night film session for the coaching staff. They are going to have to be very creative to turn this thing around. The season, in my opinion, is close to slipping away. Not sure Amile's return will be some magical elixir that makes us an Elite 8 team. We are flawed.

Eh...one possession games are essentially toss-ups. We've lost 4 of them. Team was dead tired tonight. They will grow.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 09:36 PM
My guess is this will be an all night film session for the coaching staff. They are going to have to be very creative to turn this thing around. The season, in my opinion, is close to slipping away. Not sure Amile's return will be some magical elixir that makes us an Elite 8 team. We are flawed.If we don't win say 3 of the next 4, I wonder if Amile comes back this year? It would seem like a wasted senior season for him to battle back for a team that probably doesn't make the tourney.

6th Man
01-18-2016, 09:37 PM
Weird schedule coming up. 3 straight road games spread out very oddly. Coach K is going to have to do some extremely creative thinking to best utilize the 6 in our rotation. I guess T Jones wasn't originally expected to go pro. Jefferson's injury has been devastating to the team. Still amazing that Duke basketball can be in a position where you literally have so few guys capable of even playing in a conference game.

vrob90
01-18-2016, 09:37 PM
Eh...one possession games are essentially toss-ups. We've lost 4 of them. Team was dead tired tonight. They will grow.

Plumlee didn't seem dead tired. Just sayin'.

DukeWarhead
01-18-2016, 09:37 PM
What's with all of these fair weather fans?

Three losses by a total of 11 points and for some, the world is coming to an end.

As long as the kids play hard night after night the improvement will come, have some faith people.

Expressing frustration with the first three game losing streak in 9 years is not fair weather, it makes sense. With the amount of talent Duke has, some head scratching is warranted. Nobody is suggesting that the world is coming to an end, so you can spare us the hyperbole. Wondering out loud what is wrong isn't a bad thing. Watching the last three games and denying that something's wrong is.

Saratoga2
01-18-2016, 09:39 PM
It's hard to hear the Crazies over Vitale, :cool: GoDuke!

I see Vitale to be another irritant "He who must be muted".

Dukehky
01-18-2016, 09:39 PM
This blows.

Go Panthers.

CharlestonDave
01-18-2016, 09:39 PM
My guess is this will be an all night film session for the coaching staff. They are going to have to be very creative to turn this thing around. The season, in my opinion, is close to slipping away. Not sure Amile's return will be some magical elixir that makes us an Elite 8 team. We are flawed. I agree with what you say. There was great fanfare when Obi announced that he was transferring to Duke , there was great fanfare when Jeter announced for Duke, there was great fanfare when Thornton reclassified, maybe the fanfare was not justified . I think that maybe Coach K got a little blindsided as he thought that Jones was going to stay for his sophomore year and then bolted . Jones was a difference maker . Initially he knew that Okafor was a one and done player but I do not think that he knew that Winslow was until he was so good in the tournament .

uh_no
01-18-2016, 09:39 PM
is it a violation to rant against dbr posters?

on the fun side... amile's beau claims he is doing well and can walk around in sneakers... even if he is in the boot at other times

DUKIE V(A)
01-18-2016, 09:40 PM
Thought the crowd was pretty good. Never quiet on TV. Loud and always chanting something.

Good to hear. I am probably expecting too much.

jv001
01-18-2016, 09:40 PM
I see Vitale to be another irritant "He who must be muted".

That's just what I did. I've grown to dislike his babbling. GoDuke!

TKG
01-18-2016, 09:40 PM
Eh...one possession games are essentially toss-ups. We've lost 4 of them. Team was dead tired tonight. They will grow.

I want to share your view/optimism but we have lost three games in a row to unranked opponents and two of those on our home floor. Had those losses come against ranked teams I might be more inclined to agree with you. Also, am not sure how we become refreshed unless the coaching staff dips further into the bench.

BlueandWhite
01-18-2016, 09:40 PM
What's with all of these fair weather fans?

Three losses by a total of 11 points and for some, the world is coming to an end.

As long as the kids play hard night after night the improvement will come, have some faith people.

Thanks for your post and for keeping things in perspective. If either Kennard or Jones (2 for 11) can buy a bucket tonight we win the game. Anyone think that both of them will shoot that badly in the same game again this season? Great effort by MP. Get healthy Amile!

Dukehky
01-18-2016, 09:42 PM
Thanks for your post and for keeping things in perspective. If either Kennard or Jones (2 for 11) can buy a bucket tonight we win the game. Anyone think that both of them will shoot that badly in the same game again this season? Great effort by MP. Get healthy Amile!

Matt's shooting has regressed. Luke is going to be streaky, those are just facts. We are in trouble. I honestly don't see how we can beat State. I would never have said that until the last few games where we were destroyed on the backboard by smallish teams. State is not small.

Mike Corey
01-18-2016, 09:45 PM
The guys are playing with heart, tired legs, and--IMO--wavering confidence.

63% of our field goals today were behind the three-point line. That's not ideal.

Team's going through a rough patch. Everything builds toward March. We'll see what Coach & Co. have in store; as ever, it's an honor to root for this team and University.

Enjoy K every game you can. We saw a master at work last season when the ceiling was obviously higher, and we're seeing a master at work when the ceiling may not be.

weezie
01-18-2016, 09:46 PM
on the fun side... amile's beau claims he is doing well and can walk around in sneakers... even if he is in the boot at other times

No offense uhno but a beau is male. Amile's sweetheart is a woman!

Not that there's anything wrong with....:cool:

Channing
01-18-2016, 09:55 PM
Against IU we used dribble penetration as the first option and took the threes that came from it. Then something happened and strategy flipped and we started looking to shoot 3s first and second and only drive ¾ through the game. I prefer that first offense

uh_no
01-18-2016, 10:03 PM
No offense uhno but a beau is male. Amile's sweetheart is a woman!

Not that there's anything wrong with...:cool:

apologies, my french conjugation is a bit out of practice...beaux.

Kfanarmy
01-18-2016, 10:10 PM
...
Team's going through a rough patch. Everything builds toward March. We'll see what Coach & Co. have in store; as ever, it's an honor to root for this team and University.

This team may have to win the ACC tourney to get into the NCAA tourney.

I really don't get Kennard's shooting. Terribly erratic.

I'm concerned that the staff may have misread the abilities of 3 or 4 players who may not have the ability to play ACC basketball.

FireOgilvie
01-18-2016, 10:10 PM
We're 6-4 since losing Amile; best win was Long Beach St. (KenPom #113).

lotusland
01-18-2016, 10:19 PM
No offense uhno but a beau is male. Amile's sweetheart is a woman!

Not that there's anything wrong with...:cool:

Yeah I thought Amile had been outed on DBR there for a minute.

Saratoga2
01-18-2016, 10:25 PM
The guys are playing with heart, tired legs, and--IMO--wavering confidence.

63% of our field goals today were behind the three-point line. That's not ideal.

Team's going through a rough patch. Everything builds toward March. We'll see what Coach & Co. have in store; as ever, it's an honor to root for this team and University.

Enjoy K every game you can. We saw a master at work last season when the ceiling was obviously higher, and we're seeing a master at work when the ceiling may not be.

I believe Syracuse also played with heart, and tired legs, plus they had the crowd to overcome. The fact is that despite excellent games from Marshall and Grayson and a good game from Brandon, we lost. Nothing from Luke and little from Matt and Derryck. Hardly any bench.

I suppose the good news may be that Marshall has realized that when he plays aggressively for the entire game, he can be so much better. When Amile comes back, Marshall will be much more effective than he was when Amile was sidelined.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-18-2016, 10:26 PM
I thought both teams played fairly well defensively. The intensity level was high all night on the ball.

Neither team was very disciplined offensively. Lots of bad shots and forced plays both ways.

In the end, Plumlee just didn't get enough help inside to pull out a win and a poor outside shooting night didn't help either.

This is an unbalanced Duke team and young. You've gotta like how Plumlee is stepping up, but he's not enough. Ingram is going to have to get in the paint and rebound better while somebody has to become a playmaker at PG. Allen is able to create for himself, but is struggling to get others the ball in scoring flow...same with Kennard.

It's not hopeless as long as Plumlee can stay on the floor and some shots fall. You can still win some big games. But if Plumlee gets in foul trouble it could get ugly fast against conference teams with big, strong front lines...and that's a lot of league teams.

FerryFor50
01-18-2016, 10:31 PM
- Duke settled for a LOT of threes
- When Duke did drive, they passed up shots too much. No one will respect the drive if you don't shoot it
- Duke shot 37% total and 27% from 3 after shooting the lights out the past two games. A lot of good, open looks were missed. Too bad we couldn't trade shooting night. Weird to see Kennard score 30 and then go 0-9. And Jones... If either shoots at their normal rate, Duke wins by 10.

- Third game in 5 days. Yes, these were unranked teams, but hardly bad teams. Syracuse was the worst loss of the three. But that many games with so little rest partly explains why they shot so poorly (no legs) and why they have given up 1st half leads the past 3. (No depth)

- the past 3 games have been amazingly officiated (to borrow from K's comments post game). Very inconsistent and at inopportune times.

- the defense was not awful. Held them to 35% shooting and Grayson was all over Cooney. But they killed us on the offensive boards. And wtf... 48% from 3 from a team that shoots 32% on the year???

- the offense, as others stated, was stagnant. Ingram should have played st the middle of the zone like Rodney Hood and Winslow did in previous years. Not sure why they never went to that.

- Plumlee... Omg. What a great game. But still would have liked to see him grab a few more of those defensive boards. Really looking forward to seeing how he and Amile mesh once Amile comes back. He's grown so much as a player since Amile went down.

Still not worried about the team, but if Amile doesn't return soon, K will have to start playing more guys more minutes at some point.

JPtheGame
01-18-2016, 10:36 PM
Syracuse isnt very deep and they only had 4 fouls late in the second half. Players looked pretty fresh, too. What is that thing called.....a zone?

Anyway, 13 guaranteed games left, 14 current wins. 8-5 gets us to 22-10 and if amile is back and we show some life, win a game in the acc tourney, that probably gets us in. The question is, which 1 seed do we want to play in the 2nd game because we look alot like one of those underachieving "name" schools that the committee loves to jam into the 8/9 game.

Ill take oklahoma so we can watch a 3pt shooting contest.

uh_no
01-18-2016, 10:37 PM
i'm probably the king of criticizing after wins and being more positive after losses. But I'm not worried about this loss. here's why.

Syracuse was supposed to put up a 104 or so on us....they put up a 106....so effectively as expected. We didn't learn anything we didn't know about the defense...it's not great.

We lost this game on offense. everyone knows that. It's also the first time most of these guys faced a really good zone while being key pieces. yeah these guys were on the team last year, but none of them were integral except for matt. Given the fact it took a while for these freshman to start playing well, i would have been shocked if this team DID live up to billing the first time it saw the cuse zone. It's not that we don't have the ability to beat the zone....there were several sets we ran that just look absolutely great...got wide open shooters, got plumlee dunks. Yeah we didn't knock down as many as we would have liked, but that happens.....but other times down the floor we looked like a chicken with its head cut off. extremely hesitant to get the ball into ingram at the high post (a major key n getting the zone to collapse), inability to find the open guy one the zone collapsed....all those things come with experience against syracuse.

We SHOULD have known this game was going to be slow, we should have known it would be tough to come by points (I knew....if you looked at syracuse's numbers and style of play vs our inexperience you knew). I still can't for the life of me understand why people were taking the over in this game. Taking the under here was almost as easy as taking the over vs ND....but if you accepted that beforehand, the game played out almost exactly as you expected....given you expect duke to make a couple more threes and win by 5-7 or so.

I'd pick a win right now if we played syracuse again, even without amile.

We also played a monster game on saturday whereas syracuse had a cakewalk. it was clear (to me at least) we ran out of gas in the end. We couldn't get some of the drives inside like we were able to get in the first half. If they had pulled this off with a 6 man rotation...i would have been amazed...and they almost did. Unfortunately, that's a bad omen if we run into a fast team in the ACC, or on the first game of an NCAA weekend (also I don't want to hear the "not going to make the tourney" crap until where actually in a position where we might not make the tournament....which is certainly not after 2 three point losses to 2 top 40 teams)...but fortunately we SHOULD have amile back....which would ease the burden enormously.

So am I worried? no. When you take out the win/loss factor....you see that we're not actually playing ALL that badly....but we have some of the worst luck in the country. we're ranked 335 out of 351 (for the uninitiated, luck is the difference between your actual win percentage and what your percentage should be based on your efficiences). You get a bad luck rating by having big wins and close losses...

Even more important, as others have pointed out, games within a posession are effectively a coin toss. yeah you play to win.blahblahblahblah...but is a duke team that happens to hit one more three today and on saturday that much better than the one we have? of course not. but that's how you view it if you only look at wins and losses. We STILL have a top 20 efficiency, we still have one of the best offenses in the country. and yes our defense is still pretty terrible (given, we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half before getting "tired" as i posit)...but we knew that already.

Let me say that again...we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half. It was clear we got tired. a fresh duke team who has experience against the zone wins this game easily.

So what does the rest of our schedule look like?
NCSU: KP 91...doesn't do anythin particularly fancy. I guarantee a win
Miami away: toss up GT: i think this is a win.
NCSU at home. another win
UL: loss
UVA home: win
NC away: loss
UL away: loss
FSU home: win
pitt away: win
wake forest: win
unc home: win

that puts us at 10-8 or 11-7. if you don't think that gets us in the tournament from such a stacked conference, you didn't pay attention to the big east a couple years ago.

Speaking of which i was once told that even if all the good big east teams had been in the ACC, duke and UNC would still have won all the ACC titles in a row they did. Well you know what whoever said that? You're an idiot. Those big east teams are here now....and this is what you get. pitt, cuse, UL, ND....combined with the resurgence of UVA...and personally, I think the days of sweeping the home slate are over. We got the benefit of a relatively weak ACC for several years...but it's time to pay the piper.

It sure is a fun ride.

ncexnyc
01-18-2016, 10:44 PM
Expressing frustration with the first three game losing streak in 9 years is not fair weather, it makes sense. With the amount of talent Duke has, some head scratching is warranted. Nobody is suggesting that the world is coming to an end, so you can spare us the hyperbole. Wondering out loud what is wrong isn't a bad thing. Watching the last three games and denying that something's wrong is.
Look, no fan likes seeing their team drop three in a row, but the term fair weather fan definitely applies to what I've seen on this board the past few days. If that term bothers you then feel free to swap entitled or spoiled for it.

You feel this team has a lot of talent then please break it down for me. I'd really love to hear your analysis of our team and which players are not living up to your expectations.

weezie
01-18-2016, 10:51 PM
Any presser synopsis yet?

Philadukie
01-18-2016, 10:53 PM
Lots of thoughts swirling. I'll start with the fact that I'm glad I'm 38 years old and not 28. These things just don't affect me like they did 10 years ago. Thank goodness for a little perspective. It probably also helps that I've been in Disney World with my family during these last two games!

On the downside, I can't remember the last time Duke lost back-to-back at home against unranked opponents. 1996 maybe? That's pretty telling of a) how good we've been the last 20 years, and b) how not so good this team is in comparison.

Of course, that not-so-good in comparison is due in large part to Amile's injury. I thought our margin for error was thin with him in the lineup. Without him, we just have too many flaws. Uneven freshman. No depth. Poor defense.

Speaking of thin margins, on the positive side, we are only 3 or 4 possessions away from being 19-1. For a team with so many weaknesses, that's worth noting. Flipping back to the negative though, these teams we've lost two by only a few possessions aren't so great themselves.

At this point, without Amile, it's no longer a trolling or reactionary question to ask if we'll make the tournament. We might not. With the schedule we have coming up, the season could possibly be too far gone by the time Amile gets back in mid-Feb to late Feb. We could be NIT bound this year, unless we make a run and win the ACC tournament with Amile back.

Thank goodness for last year's championship and next year's recruiting class to help make all this more tolerable! Also keep in mind, both Kentucky and UNC went to the NIT within the last five years. I think what we're seeing is as much about the state of college basketball as it is with issues specific to Duke.

Finally, something else to keep in mind. This year marks the 30th anniversary of our first championship game under K. Since that time, we've obviously won 5, more than anyone else. But also worth thinking about -- of those 30 seasons, we've played in NINE national championships. NINE. That means we've played in 30% of the championships since 1986. That's insane.

I expect we'll play in one or two more before K is done.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 10:53 PM
Despite this team's faults, we've been a few rebounds/altered shots/Amile-energy away from winning all three games. It's possible we'd all be talking elite 8 if Amile brings just a tad extra to the table. Considering he averages a double double we know he's worth well more than a tad to this team...heck, maybe we win each game by 5+.

Troublemaker
01-18-2016, 10:59 PM
Any presser synopsis yet?

It's already up on goduke.

Coach was really peeved at the no-call on the loose ball where Matt and Richardson collided on the next-to-last possession.

However, once he sees it on film, I think he'll see that it was a bang-bang play in which both guys arrived at the ball at roughly the same time, and a no-call wasn't egregious.

Besides that, nothing really to report. Very short press conference because Coach was hot.

FerryFor50
01-18-2016, 11:01 PM
It's already up on goduke.

Coach was really peeved at the no-call on the loose ball where Matt and Richardson collided on the next-to-last possession.

However, once he sees it on film, I think he'll see that it was a bang-bang play in which both guys arrived at the ball at roughly the same time, and a no-call wasn't egregious.

Besides that, nothing really to report. Very short press conference because Coach was hot.

I was madder about the next no call on the last second heave. The rebound, though... Matt had it a split second sooner than the Cuse defender, but got tackled. Was a forced fumble.

Philadukie
01-18-2016, 11:07 PM
i'm probably the king of criticizing after wins and being more positive after losses. But I'm not worried about this loss. here's why.

Syracuse was supposed to put up a 104 or so on us...they put up a 106...so effectively as expected. We didn't learn anything we didn't know about the defense...it's not great.

We lost this game on offense. everyone knows that. It's also the first time most of these guys faced a really good zone while being key pieces. yeah these guys were on the team last year, but none of them were integral except for matt. Given the fact it took a while for these freshman to start playing well, i would have been shocked if this team DID live up to billing the first time it saw the cuse zone. It's not that we don't have the ability to beat the zone...there were several sets we ran that just look absolutely great...got wide open shooters, got plumlee dunks. Yeah we didn't knock down as many as we would have liked, but that happens...but other times down the floor we looked like a chicken with its head cut off. extremely hesitant to get the ball into ingram at the high post (a major key n getting the zone to collapse), inability to find the open guy one the zone collapsed...all those things come with experience against syracuse.

We SHOULD have known this game was going to be slow, we should have known it would be tough to come by points (I knew...if you looked at syracuse's numbers and style of play vs our inexperience you knew). I still can't for the life of me understand why people were taking the over in this game. Taking the under here was almost as easy as taking the over vs ND...but if you accepted that beforehand, the game played out almost exactly as you expected...given you expect duke to make a couple more threes and win by 5-7 or so.

I'd pick a win right now if we played syracuse again, even without amile.

We also played a monster game on saturday whereas syracuse had a cakewalk. it was clear (to me at least) we ran out of gas in the end. We couldn't get some of the drives inside like we were able to get in the first half. If they had pulled this off with a 6 man rotation...i would have been amazed...and they almost did. Unfortunately, that's a bad omen if we run into a fast team in the ACC, or on the first game of an NCAA weekend (also I don't want to hear the "not going to make the tourney" crap until where actually in a position where we might not make the tournament...which is certainly not after 2 three point losses to 2 top 40 teams)...but fortunately we SHOULD have amile back...which would ease the burden enormously.

So am I worried? no. When you take out the win/loss factor...you see that we're not actually playing ALL that badly...but we have some of the worst luck in the country. we're ranked 335 out of 351 (for the uninitiated, luck is the difference between your actual win percentage and what your percentage should be based on your efficiences). You get a bad luck rating by having big wins and close losses...

Even more important, as others have pointed out, games within a posession are effectively a coin toss. yeah you play to win.blahblahblahblah...but is a duke team that happens to hit one more three today and on saturday that much better than the one we have? of course not. but that's how you view it if you only look at wins and losses. We STILL have a top 20 efficiency, we still have one of the best offenses in the country. and yes our defense is still pretty terrible (given, we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half before getting "tired" as i posit)...but we knew that already.

Let me say that again...we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half. It was clear we got tired. a fresh duke team who has experience against the zone wins this game easily.

So what does the rest of our schedule look like?
NCSU: KP 91...doesn't do anythin particularly fancy. I guarantee a win
Miami away: toss up GT: i think this is a win.
NCSU at home. another win
UL: loss
UVA home: win
NC away: loss
UL away: loss
FSU home: win
pitt away: win
wake forest: win
unc home: win

that puts us at 10-8 or 11-7. if you don't think that gets us in the tournament from such a stacked conference, you didn't pay attention to the big east a couple years ago.

Speaking of which i was once told that even if all the good big east teams had been in the ACC, duke and UNC would still have won all the ACC titles in a row they did. Well you know what whoever said that? You're an idiot. Those big east teams are here now...and this is what you get. pitt, cuse, UL, ND...combined with the resurgence of UVA...and personally, I think the days of sweeping the home slate are over. We got the benefit of a relatively weak ACC for several years...but it's time to pay the piper.

It sure is a fun ride.

Not to pick on you, but I don't think you can use the advanced stats like that and make such confident predictions on our upcoming schedule. Guaranteeing a win at State? Recent history isn't on your side. I think it's going to be a bumpy ride until Amile gets back, and even then it might take some time to get back in the groove.

Troublemaker
01-18-2016, 11:08 PM
I was madder about the next no call on the last second heave. The rebound, though... Matt had it a split second sooner than the Cuse defender, but got tackled. Was a forced fumble.

Here's the vine in case anyone's interested: https://twitter.com/ArmstrongABC11/status/689273791290056704

It would've been tough to call a foul there, imo.

At least Coach K didn't get himself ejected even though based on the presser, he was about as angry about this no-call as Boeheim was about the charge a couple years ago.

Kfanarmy
01-18-2016, 11:10 PM
It's already up on goduke.

Coach was really peeved at the no-call on the loose ball where Matt and Richardson collided on the next-to-last possession.

However, once he sees it on film...

I thought he was talking about the no call on what was a three point attempt to end the game. It was clearly an attempt to throw up a three and just as clearly a foul.

freshmanjs
01-18-2016, 11:11 PM
I thought he was talking about the no call on what was a three point attempt to end the game. It was clearly an attempt to throw up a three and just as clearly a foul.

no...he was asked which play and clearly said "the play at the foul line"

FerryFor50
01-18-2016, 11:12 PM
Here's the vine in case anyone's interested: https://twitter.com/ArmstrongABC11/status/689273791290056704

It would've been tough to call a foul there, imo.

At least Coach K didn't get himself ejected even though based on the presser, he was about as angry about this no-call as Boeheim was about the charge a couple years ago.

From the angle I saw it (from in front of Jones) looked more like a foul to me.

uh_no
01-18-2016, 11:12 PM
Not to pick on you, but I don't think you can use the advanced stats like that and make such confident predictions on our upcoming schedule. Guaranteeing a win at State? Recent history isn't on your side. I think it's going to be a bumpy ride until Amile gets back, and even then it might take some time to get back in the groove.

sorry! should have been clear. there was not too much stats in the picking, more what I think is going to happen.

I still guarantee a win on saturday!!! don't care that KP gives us a 1/3 shot of losing...he's wrong...because we have a 0% chance of losing. we WILL win that game.

sometimes you have to transcend advanced stats. this is one of those times.

call up joe broadway, there's a knew show in town.

it's not even worth me saying what I'll do if we lose...because it won't happen. the quantum waveform has already collapsed. I observed the spin of one particle, so I know the other particle results in a duke win against state.

bet your 401k's folks. it's going to happen.

Newton_14
01-18-2016, 11:15 PM
Just got back from the game. Super disappointed obviously. 3rd game in a row where we could have and maybe should have won the game but came up one possession short. Agree with Ferry and K on the last couple of plays being "amazing". Matt grabs the rebound from the Grayson miss and but Syracuse forces a fumble with a great hit... that was terrible, as was the foul on Matt's attempt to get off the final desperation heave. Crazy.

The guys just missed a lot of good shots and like Mike Corey pointed out, their confidence is wavering, none moreso than Kennard and Thornton. Kudos to Derryck for fighting through that to hit the two big 3's down the stretch but he was super hesitant all night and much worse in the 2nd half. Both he and Luke just hesitated over and over again. K hit on that in his interview after the game as well, saying that "no kid that plays for me should ever hesitate to take an open shot, because the mindset has to be that the next one is going in". I felt like he was talking directly to Luke and Derryck there.

Agree with others on not making a better effort to pass to Brandon at the foul line area and let him turn and shoot or turn and attack. They tried to get it to him there a couple of times in the first half but were unsuccessful and went away from it. I was actually more frustrated that we did not drive it more with Brandon and Grayson. They gave far too much respect to the guys manning the back line of the zone. Clearly Plumlee was killing the Syracuse bigs, so that should have shown Brandon and Grayson that points and/or fouls could have been had there. I think had we committed to that early and often, it is a totally different game.

Folks should be proud of Grayson getting 18 points despite being in Cooney's shorts the entire game. His one on one defense on Cooney was outstanding and he deserves props. Plumlee, God Bless him, was outstanding again. He got hammered more than once on the few times he missed as well with no call.
ab
We "lost" the end of the first half again for the 3rd game in a row also, and to me that is key. Grayson was within a fingertip of changing that with the made three pointer, but the replay clearly showed he did not get it off in time. The scoreboard operator never even put the points up even though Kersey signaled it as good right after it went in.

One key thing that hurt us in that last full possession was the fact that Syracuse did not have to play legit defense. They had 4 fouls to give, so we could not work the ball for a good shot attempt. If we try to attack quickly they just foul on purpose, and if we don't they just sit back and let the clock run. That impacted Grayson on that last drive, though I felt he got bumped enough to call a foul. Had Syracuse been in the 1 and 1 that whole possession plays out differently with a lot more game pressure on the Orange than there was.

The super frustrating part is we could be sitting here 6-0 in the ACC and riding momentum. A break here or there in any of the last 3 games, or some of those contested 3's by non-star players could have not gone in and the dynamic is totally different. However, all of that went the other way so it was 0-3 instead. This is not a terrible team. It desperately needs Amile back, and the guys need to see the ball go through the basket. Funny thing is, Notre Dame game aside, the team defense had been improving somewhat recently. With a healthy Amile it likely would have been even better. The rebounding issue is not going to change until Amile trots back onto the floor, but they can do things to overcome it. Right now, my biggest fear is twofold, with one going hand in hand with the other, that being our kids lose their confidence so much it becomes a big issue, and two, other teams seeing what is going on and coming in with much more confidence than they would have normally. Clemson, ND, and Syracuse all had kids shoot above their heads from 3 point land and it killed us in all 3 games. If future opponents play looser due to more confidence it can lead to above norm 3 point shooting percentages. We have to fight hard to snuff that out.

As far as the bench, Chase is the only player with a realistic chance to improve in practice, earn playing time, and actually contribute. I did tell FerryFor50 tonight though, that I would be interested to see K throw Vrankovic into the action for a few minutes just to see how he would fare. It wouldn't hurt to give him 2-3 minutes in both halves. Maybe it doesn't help, or maybe the kid makes a few plays and grabs some key rebounds along the way. You can't teach 7 Foot Tall, and during the cupcake games he ran the floor really well and had a couple of promising moments. That's just me dreaming though. It won't happen. So we wait for Amile.

I know we have the no Terp'in rule which is fine, but K was uber p'oed after the game in that radio interview. I'm quite sure "amazing" was not the word he wanted to use. From the no call on Grayson's drive, to Matt getting drilled after securing the last rebound from Grayson's miss, to Matt getting fouled on the desperation heave, K was extremely upset. But, no matter, we lost.

They need the much needed rest prior to the State game, and then hopefully a good enough performance to secure the win in Raleigh.

Keep the faith. No time to bail on the guys now!

60's Devil
01-18-2016, 11:22 PM
Totally befuddled by the zone and painfully unprepared. Spectacular game for Marshall.
Amile is a great kid and has really contributed for three years. That said, he is a journeyman
ACC player and not a star. Most like;y he will play in Europe. Putting all our hopes and dreams
on him is wishful thinking and FAR too much pressure will be on him when he returns. Our
problems are much more than one injured player. Agree with several of the posters about
player evaluation prior to recruiting. How could we have been so wrong?

Kfanarmy
01-18-2016, 11:23 PM
no...he was asked which play and clearly said "the play at the foul line"

Fair enough...I thought the final play was more obvious.

Troublemaker
01-18-2016, 11:27 PM
Eh...one possession games are essentially toss-ups. We've lost 4 of them. Team was dead tired tonight. They will grow.

Yep. I'm with you and others who have pointed this out. Things seem worse than they really are right now because we've gone 0-4 in one-possession games. To go 0-4 is mostly just bad luck. If we could play out the last couple of possessions of those games a million times, the most common result from those million iterations would be 2 wins and 2 losses for that set of 4 games.

But, unfortunately, 0-4 was what we were dealt. Hopefully the luck starts to balance out and we can win some tough games going forward. I'm still confident in this team as long as they remain confident in themselves despite the 3-game losing streak.

Furniture
01-18-2016, 11:29 PM
I am not bailing. I love this team.
K really has to use his magic on them to bring their confidence up. That's his job!!
It was about a six minute presser with no sum up comment before the questions. He was pretty short on some of his answers and was sometimes interrupting the reporters questions. They tried to cut the questions short a couple of times.
All in all he had some nice comments about the team given the situation...

xdev
01-18-2016, 11:33 PM
Newton_14-

Do you think that Grayson should attack one-on-one more frequently? Watching on TV, it seemed to me he had multiple chances to square up and attack the slower, less athletic zone defender guarding him but passed to a teammate instead. It should be a fair challenge to keep Grayson in front, and as you said, if the defense sticks to Plumlee fearing the dump off or lob, that opens finishing opportunities for the driver. On top of that, Grayson's decisions in the paint have improved considerably as the season has progressed, to my eyes at least.

eddiehaskell
01-18-2016, 11:55 PM
Does anyone else think this team would be more dangerous in the tourney as a ~11 loss team vs say the ~6-7 loss team they could've otherwise been? The young guys have played a lot/improved and the team has been in plenty of nail biters which is great for giving young guys a taste of tourney pressure. Also, if MP3 is now a 10/10 guy - how good could this team be with TWO 10/10 big men patrolling the paint? I certainly don't think too many 1 seeds would like to meet this Duke team (peaking late) in the 2nd round.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but if this team can salvage the season while integrating Amile for at least a month - I think it'll be fun to watch. We'd be a team that's played under pressure yet doesn't have to play with the pressure of being a 1 or 2 seed.

dukelifer
01-19-2016, 12:11 AM
i'm probably the king of criticizing after wins and being more positive after losses. But I'm not worried about this loss. here's why.

Syracuse was supposed to put up a 104 or so on us...they put up a 106...so effectively as expected. We didn't learn anything we didn't know about the defense...it's not great.

We lost this game on offense. everyone knows that. It's also the first time most of these guys faced a really good zone while being key pieces. yeah these guys were on the team last year, but none of them were integral except for matt. Given the fact it took a while for these freshman to start playing well, i would have been shocked if this team DID live up to billing the first time it saw the cuse zone. It's not that we don't have the ability to beat the zone...there were several sets we ran that just look absolutely great...got wide open shooters, got plumlee dunks. Yeah we didn't knock down as many as we would have liked, but that happens....but other times down the floor we looked like a chicken with its head cut off. extremely hesitant to get the ball into ingram at the high post (a major key n getting the zone to collapse), inability to find the open guy one the zone collapsed...all those things come with experience against syracuse.

We SHOULD have known this game was going to be slow, we should have known it would be tough to come by points (I knew...if you looked at syracuse's numbers and style of play vs our inexperience you knew). I still can't for the life of me understand why people were taking the over in this game. Taking the under here was almost as easy as taking the over vs ND...but if you accepted that beforehand, the game played out almost exactly as you expected...given you expect duke to make a couple more threes and win by 5-7 or so.

I'd pick a win right now if we played syracuse again, even without amile.

We also played a monster game on saturday whereas syracuse had a cakewalk. it was clear (to me at least) we ran out of gas in the end. We couldn't get some of the drives inside like we were able to get in the first half. If they had pulled this off with a 6 man rotation...i would have been amazed...and they almost did. Unfortunately, that's a bad omen if we run into a fast team in the ACC, or on the first game of an NCAA weekend (also I don't want to hear the "not going to make the tourney" crap until where actually in a position where we might not make the tournament...which is certainly not after 2 three point losses to 2 top 40 teams)...but fortunately we SHOULD have amile back...which would ease the burden enormously.

So am I worried? no. When you take out the win/loss factor...you see that we're not actually playing ALL that badly...but we have some of the worst luck in the country. we're ranked 335 out of 351 (for the uninitiated, luck is the difference between your actual win percentage and what your percentage should be based on your efficiences). You get a bad luck rating by having big wins and close losses...

Even more important, as others have pointed out, games within a posession are effectively a coin toss. yeah you play to win.blahblahblahblah...but is a duke team that happens to hit one more three today and on saturday that much better than the one we have? of course not. but that's how you view it if you only look at wins and losses. We STILL have a top 20 efficiency, we still have one of the best offenses in the country. and yes our defense is still pretty terrible (given, we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half before getting "tired" as i posit)...but we knew that already.

Let me say that again...we held syracuse to an 87 in the first half. It was clear we got tired. a fresh duke team who has experience against the zone wins this game easily.

So what does the rest of our schedule look like?
NCSU: KP 91...doesn't do anythin particularly fancy. I guarantee a win
Miami away: toss up GT: i think this is a win.
NCSU at home. another win
UL: loss
UVA home: win
NC away: loss
UL away: loss
FSU home: win
pitt away: win
wake forest: win
unc home: win

that puts us at 10-8 or 11-7. if you don't think that gets us in the tournament from such a stacked conference, you didn't pay attention to the big east a couple years ago.

Speaking of which i was once told that even if all the good big east teams had been in the ACC, duke and UNC would still have won all the ACC titles in a row they did. Well you know what whoever said that? You're an idiot. Those big east teams are here now...and this is what you get. pitt, cuse, UL, ND...combined with the resurgence of UVA...and personally, I think the days of sweeping the home slate are over. We got the benefit of a relatively weak ACC for several years...but it's time to pay the piper.

It sure is a fun ride.

I am not so optimistic about the rest of the ACC season but we will see how it plays out. This team is not confident right now and lack of an experienced playmaker hurts. Duke could easily go on a roll or end up losing the rest of their games by a few points. Duke will be in most games this year- but the end of the game execution continues to be an issue. We will see if they figure it out. Until I see improvement - I have no idea how this season goes.

Confidence is a fragile thing. Today Kennard lost his in a few plays- and never recovered. Marshall is doing his best to be the senior rock but he can only do so much. Matt has regressed a bit. We saw some glimpses from Thornton but he made a lot of early mistakes tonight. Hard to watch for sure but this is one of the outcomes of having a young team- lots of close losses. Last year's team was not that far away from having a horrible start to the ACC season but they ended up winning- gained confidence and the rest is history.

kAzE
01-19-2016, 12:15 AM
Well, I guess not having Amile Jefferson sucks. He was the guy who's been standing in the middle of that Syracuse zone all these years, and I guess now we have no idea what to do with it. Derryck, Luke, and Brandon played like they've never seen a zone before , and did nothing but pass it around the perimeter and jack up 3s. I'll concede it's their first game against Syracuse, but a little more penetration would have been nice. I don't understand why Brandon didn't try to get to the foul line and try to get a feed in the middle to collapse the zone. We've been doing that for years with Amile with great results. I think Matt tried to get in there a few times, but nobody passed it to him.

Grayson was the only one fearless enough to drive baseline, but those opportunities were few and far between. If not for Marshall, we may have been blown out of our own gym. Thank goodness they didn't have their traditional shot blocking big, otherwise, we might not have scored 50.

Not many positives to take from this one. I thought we played well last game (other than some regrettable perimeter defense), but we just let them take this one from us. Turns out 6 is not enough to sustain 110% effort for 40 minutes. I'm hoping a 7th guy emerges, but who knows how long that will take? Still, you just can't let a 6-8 guy grab 20 boards. Tired or not, somebody put a body on him.

The reign of Luke Kennard was brief. Not sure why he totally lost his confidence. It's very uncharacteristic. In early season games, he had no problem jacking up shots after missing 10 in a row. But he also just didn't even attempt to attack the paint. The zone spooked him silly. I suppose all young players have games like this (Grayson has had a couple of stinkers this year as well), but he's too good for this happen at Cameron in front of the home crowd. We can't win if one of our key scorers puts up 0.

ricks68
01-19-2016, 12:20 AM
No offense uhno but a beau is male. Amile's sweetheart is a woman!

Not that there's anything wrong with...:cool:

Yes, she is really a sweetheart----and absolutely gorgeous:).
(Kinda like weezie, ya know.)

ricks

uh_no
01-19-2016, 12:21 AM
people seem to be severely unerestimating the impact of the cuse zone....especially when faced by a rotation in which 5 of the 6 players haven't faced it.

let's see if the offense bounces back from one bad game in a before we declare that the team has lost its confidence.

further, i think people are ignoring how really friggin good the duke defense was in the first half. 87 is a really good number...especially against an above average offense.

we put a bunch of youngins in a new situation and they didn't do as well as we ultimately would have liked. it's not the end of the world. especially since we will beat NCSU on saturday.

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-19-2016, 12:25 AM
No, sorry. The Crazies were solid. The microphones are always turned up on announcers and crowd muted. It was loud in there and the Crazies tried hard.

The going is now tough. We've got to keep going!

We were there. The Crazies and the band did their job tonight. We stood with them a lot above the rail. Everybody worked hard.
The Orange just kept hitting threes at a clip of about 50%. We hit them at about half that. And we still only lost by two. Pretty amazing, actually.

First time I can remember leaving a game thinking we were outcoached, though.

Next play. Love, Ima

bleedingblue88
01-19-2016, 12:30 AM
I think we are headed toward 10 losses no doubt about it. Today I watched the whole game, we played real hard. The effort is there. The talent is really not. Plumlee (props to him by the way), played the game of his LIFE. Every one of his 19 pts was seriously a gift and we couldn't capitalize on his monster performance. With Amile in our lineup, I think we win our last 3 games, but we can't count on him to even return this year, so this is what we'll have to deal with.

Say we go 10-8 in the conference, do we get in the tournament? I think 11-7 is what it will take.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-19-2016, 12:43 AM
Say we go 10-8 in the conference, do we get in the tournament? I think 11-7 is what it will take.

I still feel aiming for 8 losses is tough - not knowing whether we get Amile back in a week or six weeks is a huge factor.

Not sure how any winning conference records get left out of the tournament this year. Might be record bids from the ACC, given the strength in the middle.

ricks68
01-19-2016, 12:46 AM
Check out the post-game presser by Coach K. There is a distinct difference in the actual words spoken by Coach K and what was posted by Duke Sports Information

(I would post the link to the presser, but I am having trouble trying to link it.) It's just over 6 minutes long, and the words to compare to the first quote below are about 1-2 minutes in.


Duke Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski

On driving to the goal as much as Duke would have liked to:
“No, you would like to drive a little bit more. Although we did right at the end of the game, and it was an amazing ending. The last play is amazing. Have you seen it? Go see it, it is literally amazing. The play with Matt Jones at the foul line, it is amazing basketball; let’s just put it that way.”

On finishing the last four games:
“It’s not the finish, they were one possession. We put ourselves in a position to win. Matt Jones made a great play, and he was not rewarded. He made a great play. It’s amazing. It’s literally amazing. God Bless America.”

Methinks he was being extremely sarcastic in the post-game interview concerning the two topics above, and even went so far as reviewing what the DSI put out there and made a few modifications to the actual transcript!!:eek: Wow!

ricks

kAzE
01-19-2016, 12:53 AM
Check out the post-game presser by Coach K. There is a distinct difference in the actual words spoken by Coach K and what was posted by Duke Sports Information

(I would post the link to the presser, but I am having trouble trying to link it.) It's just over 6 minutes long, and the words to compare to the first quote below are about 1-2 minutes in.


Duke Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski

On driving to the goal as much as Duke would have liked to:
“No, you would like to drive a little bit more. Although we did right at the end of the game, and it was an amazing ending. The last play is amazing. Have you seen it? Go see it, it is literally amazing. The play with Matt Jones at the foul line, it is amazing basketball; let’s just put it that way.”

On finishing the last four games:
“It’s not the finish, they were one possession. We put ourselves in a position to win. Matt Jones made a great play, and he was not rewarded. He made a great play. It’s amazing. It’s literally amazing. God Bless America.”

Methinks he was being extremely sarcastic in the post-game interview concerning the two topics above, and even went so far as reviewing what the DSI put out there and made a few modifications to the actual transcript!!:eek: Wow!

ricks

He's obviously criticizing the officials without just coming out and saying it was a horrendous no-call. But we still shouldn't have needed a bail out call on a 3/4 court heave to win that game. Saturday cannot come nearly soon enough. This is getting irritating.

ricks68
01-19-2016, 01:00 AM
We were there. The Crazies and the band did their job tonight. We stood with them a lot above the rail. Everybody worked hard.
The Orange just kept hitting threes at a clip of about 50%. We hit them at about half that. And we still only lost by two. Pretty amazing, actually.

First time I can remember leaving a game thinking we were outcoached, though.

Next play. Love, Ima

I thought the same about the last two games on both counts. I was at the ND game and it was LOUD.

My thoughts about the 'Cuse defense was that they set up deeper on the outside, which resulted in open shots that were maybe a few feet farther back than what was normal for our guys. I kept hoping that we would then modify our attack to a short drive and kick out to where our shooters would be given a chance to set up just beyond the arc at their more normal shooting distance once the perimeter sagged towards the driver. I also noticed that when we were able to make a move to get open just beyond the arc, we hit those 3's at a good percentage. Just plain outcoached, IMVHO.:o

ricks

ricks68
01-19-2016, 01:03 AM
He's obviously criticizing the officials without just coming out and saying it was a horrendous no-call. But we still shouldn't have needed a bail out call on a 3/4 court heave to win that game. Saturday cannot come nearly soon enough. This is getting irritating.

I totally am in agreement with that, but I found the way of venting Coach K's anger pretty demonstrative.:p

ricks

Furniture
01-19-2016, 01:57 AM
Check out the post-game presser by Coach K. There is a distinct difference in the actual words spoken by Coach K and what was posted by Duke Sports Information

(I would post the link to the presser, but I am having trouble trying to link it.) It's just over 6 minutes long, and the words to compare to the first quote below are about 1-2 minutes in.


Duke Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski

On driving to the goal as much as Duke would have liked to:
“No, you would like to drive a little bit more. Although we did right at the end of the game, and it was an amazing ending. The last play is amazing. Have you seen it? Go see it, it is literally amazing. The play with Matt Jones at the foul line, it is amazing basketball; let’s just put it that way.”

On finishing the last four games:
“It’s not the finish, they were one possession. We put ourselves in a position to win. Matt Jones made a great play, and he was not rewarded. He made a great play. It’s amazing. It’s literally amazing. God Bless America.”

Methinks he was being extremely sarcastic in the post-game interview concerning the two topics above, and even went so far as reviewing what the DSI put out there and made a few modifications to the actual transcript!!:eek: Wow!

ricks

At one point he said 'amazing , God bless America' .

Furniture
01-19-2016, 02:00 AM
I think we are headed toward 10 losses no doubt about it. Today I watched the whole game, we played real hard. The effort is there. The talent is really not. Plumlee (props to him by the way), played the game of his LIFE. Every one of his 19 pts was seriously a gift and we couldn't capitalize on his monster performance. With Amile in our lineup, I think we win our last 3 games, but we can't count on him to even return this year, so this is what we'll have to deal with.

Say we go 10-8 in the conference, do we get in the tournament? I think 11-7 is what it will take.

Not sure how you can say there is no talent in this team. Marshals points were all gifts? Then there is the gloating. Are you sure you are a Duke fan?

Bluegrassdevil1
01-19-2016, 05:25 AM
This season is clearly beginning to continue the even numbered year trend ('12, '14, '16) of the team struggling on the court; however, it is still important to remember that both UConn and UK struggled in '14, but those teams played in the title game, and that U of L lost three in a row in '13, but won the title.

Embracing the OAD mentality is a guessing game for any program, but no program can have any solid chance of competing at a high level without following the OAD model, with the understanding that if any coach is going to struggle with the model, it would be Coach K:

1. Coach K has readily accepted clear, undeniable OAD players into the program (Irving, Okafor, Rivers, etc), but he has not done a great job of managing the concept that most modern college basketball players see themselves as capable of making a run at the NBA, if simply given the chance. Because Coach K has never been one to play a deep bench (and his results usually back-up his methods), the modern basketball player finds themselves in opposition to the policies of one of the game's greatest coaches. This current team potentially could have had A. Murphy and Ojeleye on the squad, and while neither kid is/was likely to be a program changer, the steady hands of two upperclassmen would have greatly benefitted the current squad; in much the same way Gbinije would have offset the worries of last season's transfer and dismissal, but he would have greatly helped the '14 squad find its way.

I suspect that Coach K will never find a firm handle on this balancing act, and because the guy has more accolades than any other college coach, there is no rationale reason for him to expect to change all of his "stripes" or processes.

2. Duke is currently missing five players from this team, and as any basketball fan knows, five is the most important number in the game, because it is a full starting lineup.

a. T. Jones. I am 100% positive that Coach K viewed T. Jones in much the same way that UK viewed Tyler Ullis. Jones would be an exceptional college point guard, but he would not be tall enough, or quick enough, to make an immediate leap to the pro game, and would be around to lead the team after a significant turnover of players/talent (UK is struggling as well this season). Because Jones led Duke to a national championship, no one in or out of the program is terribly upset about his departure, because national championships are the goal, and what it takes to get one (save things found down 15-501) are worth the ups and the downs. If Jones were on the current team, not only would the program have a star, but whether Thornton remains in high school, redshirts, or plays off the bench, the kid has a less intensive welcoming to the college game; Kennard, M. Jones, and Allen do not find themselves alternating running the offense, and each kid is far more likely to have an easier time at their natural position. T. Jones would have transformed this team, but he transformed last season's squad as well, and once again, banners trump everything else.

b. Alex Murphy. Would have never been a star, but he would have profoundly helped with interior play, and most importantly, he would have been another upperclassmen to lead to the team.

c. Semi Ojeleye. Much like Murphy, he is not a program changing player, but he would be an upperclassmen that would greatly offset the injury to Jefferson.

d. Amile Jefferson. Everyone knows this answer.

e. Obi/Jeter. I have combined these two kids because without the transfers, Duke likely does not have an open scholarship available for Obi; however, for whatever reason, whether it be a fault of coaching evaluation, personal player development, or some mystical third answer, Obi and Jeter are having a difficult time adapting to high level college basketball, and the team is struggling along with them. It is possible that neither kid ever develops as a players, or possibly both guys become Zoubek or Marshall Plumlee, but whatever the answer becomes, it will not happen this season.

3. It has become quite common in modern college basketball for the defending national champion to not make the tournament the following season ('15 UConn, '13 UK, '12 UConn, '10 UNC, '08 Florida), and it simply possible that Duke will not make the NCAA tournament this season, but Coach K does not currently have an NIT title, and it would undeniably make his resume all the more complete.

It is possible that because I never had high expectations for the current squad, that I do not find myself terribly depressed by the current results, but I do see good things in Kennard, Allen, Thornton, Jeter, Obi, M. Jones, and I know how good the recruiting is likely to become, so things will get better, and if they do not, I am certainly not going to waste the few remaining years of Coach K on worrying about one season, while omitting the preceding 35.

wavedukefan70s
01-19-2016, 05:51 AM
There is a highschool program in rockhill sc.
That rebuilds expecting a championship every 3 to 4 years.thats how they are set up.i believe duke to contend every 2 to 4 years.i can live with a "off season"its still a winning season.we are thin .tired legs miss shots .once the game sped up.i didnt think we had enough gas in the tank to finish.kids fought their butt off.hats off to them.
We will be ok.GO DUKE........

TKG
01-19-2016, 06:18 AM
people seem to be severely unerestimating the impact of the cuse zone...especially when faced by a rotation in which 5 of the 6 players haven't faced it.

let's see if the offense bounces back from one bad game in a before we declare that the team has lost its confidence.

further, i think people are ignoring how really friggin good the duke defense was in the first half. 87 is a really good number...especially against an above average offense.

we put a bunch of youngins in a new situation and they didn't do as well as we ultimately would have liked. it's not the end of the world. especially since we will beat NCSU on saturday.

I wonder whether any opponent will play man-to-man against us for the rest of the season. While zone is part of the Syracuse DNA, most teams might be willing to trade big numbers from Plumlee for shutting down the others.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-19-2016, 06:55 AM
Some thoughts on College Basketball as a whole this season. I don't think we are in as much trouble as everyone thinks. We are right there, and this year as long as we scratch our way into the tournament we can make a decent run. I don't know if we can win the title but its not exactly impossible especially if we get Amile back. Were a one loss team with Amile on the court, and likely the Number one team in the nation right now.

That being said, I haven't seen a team play this season that I don't think we can beat. Everyone is relatively close this year and the tournament is going to be crazy unpredictable. There won't be much difference between being a 3-9 seeded team. Sure you want to avoid the 8/9 game if possible but It won't be impossible to take out a Kansas, Oklahoma, or the more likely scenario Maryland. Because we all know if we get on that 8/9 seed line and Maryland is a 1 seed that is who we are playing. I think a winning season in the ACC and a tourney win gets us in. We can sneak in with 10 losses. If Amile comes back before the tourney and is close to the Double Double guy he was we can win the ACC tournament.

Don't lose hope my friends, I will be at the Miami game Monday, so my positive mojo will rub off on the team. Then we will go on a run. We just have to find a way to win at NC State later this wee.

Lets Go Duke

Don't Despair

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 07:10 AM
people seem to be severely underestimating the impact of the cuse zone...

I think you're on to something. With MUCH hindsight, the logistics for game preparation were pretty bad for Duke. After the Notre Dame game on Saturday, the players were likely only doing ice baths, recovery drinks, training room, and rest for the remainder of the day. On Sunday, there's no way we practiced hard or with contact. On Monday, maybe a walkthrough in the morning, and then the game in the evening.

If there are, say, 5 ways to play zone offense against Syracuse, I think we probably only go through covering 1 or 2 ways. Ultimately, achieving a 109 offensive efficiency (it was a looow possession game at 57 possessions) against Cuse isn't shabby. And if we had just hit one or two more of the open threes, we probably win.


I wonder whether any opponent will play man-to-man against us for the rest of the season. While zone is part of the Syracuse DNA, most teams might be willing to trade big numbers from Plumlee for shutting down the others.

I wouldn't count on other teams, without Cuse's talent, coach, and focus on zone, to be able to play zone nearly as well. And I wouldn't count on Duke missing so many shots again or having a relative lack of variety attacking it again.

Teams might try zone, but I doubt they will successful with it. For example, if Duke played itself, would we be able to stop ourselves with zone? Probably not, since Duke's zone defense has stunk without Amile.

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 07:23 AM
Say we go 10-8 in the conference, do we get in the tournament? I think 11-7 is what it will take.

The record doesn't matter nearly as much as which teams the wins come against. Even 9-9 gets in because it'll almost certainly include wins against tournament teams. Plus, consider that the committee will somewhat discount the games played without Amile.

It's not a deep year for college basketball. Before last night's loss, Duke was probably still as high as a 4 or 5 seed if Selection Sunday were today, using the latest Bracket Matrix dated 1/18/16, 8:12pm (http://www.bracketmatrix.com/). (By the time some of you read this post, the Matrix might be updated.) After the loss, we're probably something like a 7 or 8 seed if Selection Sunday were today. Obviously we have work to do, but it'd still be very surprising not to make it.

luburch
01-19-2016, 07:58 AM
After having some time to cool off and think about the game I have a few thoughts:

1. Thornton picking up full-court possession after possession was a mistake. I understand wanting to pressure the ball handler, but he was consistently beat off the dribble putting the defense at a disadvantage. Someone from the wing or post had to step up and this either allowed for an open shot, or moved the big out of the lane and into bad rebounding position.

2. Rebounds. Cannot give up that many offensive rebounds and expect to win games. Honestly not sure I saw one person actually box out. Mainly just turned and jumped for the ball.

3. The offense was abysmal. Just slowly passed the ball around the perimeter. Didn't flash anyone in the high post, screen the backside and look for the opposite corner, didn't go short corner, few pass/shot fakes. Grayson seemed to be the only one confident enough to attack the gaps, but had a hard time finding others once he was in the lane.

All that being said, 4 losses have been in one possession games. 14-5 is not an accurate representation of this team, but at the end of the day that's their record. Need to start winning those close games.

jv001
01-19-2016, 08:58 AM
After having some time to cool off and think about the game I have a few thoughts:

1. Thornton picking up full-court possession after possession was a mistake. I understand wanting to pressure the ball handler, but he was consistently beat off the dribble putting the defense at a disadvantage. Someone from the wing or post had to step up and this either allowed for an open shot, or moved the big out of the lane and into bad rebounding position.

2. Rebounds. Cannot give up that many offensive rebounds and expect to win games. Honestly not sure I saw one person actually box out. Mainly just turned and jumped for the ball.

3. The offense was abysmal. Just slowly passed the ball around the perimeter. Didn't flash anyone in the high post, screen the backside and look for the opposite corner, didn't go short corner, few pass/shot fakes. Grayson seemed to be the only one confident enough to attack the gaps, but had a hard time finding others once he was in the lane.

All that being said, 4 losses have been in one possession games. 14-5 is not an accurate representation of this team, but at the end of the day that's their record. Need to start winning those close games.

Pretty much the way I saw the game. Number 2(rebounding) has been bad for a few games now. We can't rely on MPIII to get all the rebounds. I don't think Marshall has ever been a good defensive rebounder but he does very well getting offensive rebounds. The wings must hit the board as well. As for Thornton picking up full court, I thought that he was going to get himself killed on those picks. I'm wondering if the staff wanted him to pick up full court. If so, that was a terrible idea. But with only 2 players(MPIII and Matt) with experience in big games, it's not surprising that we're having problems winning close games. I don't think it's a matter of lack of talent, it's a matter of in-experienced talent. I'm hoping for a better rebounding effort next game. If not the trend will continue. GoDuke!

CameronBornAndBred
01-19-2016, 09:23 AM
I think we are headed toward 10 losses no doubt about it. Today I watched the whole game, we played real hard. The effort is there. The talent is really not. Plumlee (props to him by the way), played the game of his LIFE. Every one of his 19 pts was seriously a gift and we couldn't capitalize on his monster performance. With Amile in our lineup, I think we win our last 3 games, but we can't count on him to even return this year, so this is what we'll have to deal with.

Say we go 10-8 in the conference, do we get in the tournament? I think 11-7 is what it will take.
We may be lacking a few things on this team, mostly experience, but we sure don't lack talent.
By playing such a limited number of guys, we are literally getting worn out. When people mention fatigue issues, I'm usually one of the first to point out that these guys are young athletes; they are conditioned for it. However, they are also playing against young athletes, also conditioned for a succession of games. While we may not be "exhausted", we are definitely at a disadvantage at the end of these games, and that's when we need to be at our best. This means that our drives will be less successful, our shooting (which becomes a threefest when we are down) suffers, and we will foul more and pull down less rebounds. Our game plan better be get up by 30 early, or use someone on the bench more.
Without minutes from Jeter and Obi in some capacity...even just to rest the folks that need it, we're in for more of the same results. There isn't much difference in a guy that can't play defense or score because he's tired and one that can't play defense or score because he lacks the ability. Both results are the same. However, if you can play the guy with less ability more often, then you can actually use the guy with more talent when he's most needed because he isn't worn out.
We won't last 3 (or 4 or 5) days in the ACC tourney with our rotation. Our lack of talent won't be the reason we are watching the semifinals from home, it will be because we don't have the stamina to make it that far.

porkpa
01-19-2016, 09:26 AM
Anyone else on here getting posts about Coach K coming close to totally bypassing shaking hands with the Syracuse kids after the game? Looking at the video that I saw he barely shook a hand or two basically rushing by the rest of the Orange kids.
The posts were saying something to the effect of K showing his true class. I didn't know how to answer, so I didn't.

mcdukie
01-19-2016, 09:30 AM
1) Crazies were good last night- even chanted "Let Your Team Down" to a 'Cuse player when he got his 3rd foul early, really thought that was funny!
2) I think we would be in at 10-8 in the league. All of the analyst say the ACC is very tough this year so can't imagine not getting in with that record
3) All the hype for Obi and he can't even play 2 minutes? Don't understand. Can't play 6 bodies in the ACC, not this year, and expect to win.
4) Saturday we didn't defend or rebound, last night 64 points isn't that bad but you have to rebound. It's that simple.

Don't think its time to panic but boy does the road look tough!

Still something about this team I like though! Looking forward to seeing how we play and how K adjust against State!

whereinthehellami
01-19-2016, 09:34 AM
There 13 games left for sure, counting the ACC tourney. If Duke goes ~ .500 the rest of the way, the record could be 20-12 (schedule is backloaded, so I counted the extra game as a loss). Is that enough to get in the tourney? I think Duke needs to steal at least one from UNC.

RepoMan
01-19-2016, 09:35 AM
Anyone else on here getting posts about Coach K coming close to totally bypassing shaking hands with the Syracuse kids after the game? Looking at the video that I saw he barely shook a hand or two basically rushing by the rest of the Orange kids.
The posts were saying something to the effect of K showing his true class. I didn't know how to answer, so I didn't.

Here is a link to the video to which you refer. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/01/19/coach-mike-krzyzewski-snubs-syracuse-players-following-loss/ U Maryland is a "local" team for the Post, so I guess we should not be surprised by the tone of the article or the comments.

uh_no
01-19-2016, 09:41 AM
1) Crazies were good last night- even chanted "Let Your Team Down" to a 'Cuse player when he got his 3rd foul early, really thought that was funny!


best part was when they chanted "lose the jacket" to boeheim...who then feigned taking the jacket off (with a smirk) and the crazies cheered.

tux
01-19-2016, 09:44 AM
I wonder whether any opponent will play man-to-man against us for the rest of the season. While zone is part of the Syracuse DNA, most teams might be willing to trade big numbers from Plumlee for shutting down the others.

Not picking on you at all, but there is predictably a ton of over-reacting in this thread. Luke went 0-9. That's an outlier. Matt is a streaky shooter and he's struggling right now as well. I would love for teams that don't practice a zone as much as Syracuse to decide to zone us this year. That would not be smart. Plus, the purpose of a zone isn't to give "big numbers" to your opponent's center, so not sure what that means. I guess Marshall had a good game and we struggled from 3, so now we're extrapolating a bit...

We have a very young and very thin team. Young teams are prone to lose conference games. We've been in every game this season minus the UK game. And "in" as in with a shot to win in the final minutes. Let's all recall the home loss to Miami last season... now that was a real head-scratcher.

I'm not saying that Duke will be "fine" -- I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not really worried at all. I don't think "something's wrong" with this team, as I've read over and over in this thread.

Also, I thought Syracuse did a great job of denying the pass to the high post. We did run people into that spot, but I think what seems "open" to folks watching on TV may not seem as open to the guy holding the ball. Let's all realize that Syracuse also knows that teams are going to try and attack from that spot... Duke did that last year in the game in Cameron, so instead of saying things like "we never attacked the zone from the high post", let's just realize that Syracuse did a good job against a team not fully prepared for their zone. It's really not any more complicate than that.

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 09:46 AM
Anyone else on here getting posts about Coach K coming close to totally bypassing shaking hands with the Syracuse kids after the game? Looking at the video that I saw he barely shook a hand or two basically rushing by the rest of the Orange kids.
The posts were saying something to the effect of K showing his true class. I didn't know how to answer, so I didn't.

He looked intent on getting in the ear of the officials...so no he didn't spend a lot of time shaking their hands, but he did shake their hands...its much easier to be engaging with the opposition when your ebullient from a win.

Dukehky
01-19-2016, 09:47 AM
Not picking on you at all, but there is predictably a ton of over-reacting in this thread. Luke went 0-9. That's an outlier. Matt is a streaky shooter and he's struggling right now as well. I would love for teams that don't practice a zone as much as Syracuse to decide to zone us this year. That would not be smart. Plus, the purpose of a zone isn't to give "big numbers" to your opponent's center, so not sure what that means. I guess Marshall had a good game and we struggled from 3, so now we're extrapolating a bit...

We have a very young and very thin team. Young teams are prone to lose conference games. We've been in every game this season minus the UK game. And "in" as in with a shot to win in the final minutes. Let's all recall the home loss to Miami last season... now that was a real head-scratcher.

I'm not saying that Duke will be "fine" -- I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not really worried at all. I don't think "something's wrong" with this team, as I've read over and over in this thread.

Also, I thought Syracuse did a great job of denying the pass to the high post. We did run people into that spot, but I think what seems "open" to folks watching on TV may not seem as open to the guy holding the ball. Let's all realize that Syracuse also knows that teams are going to try and attack from that spot... Duke did that last year in the game in Cameron, so instead of saying things like "we never attacked the zone form the high post", let's just realize that Syracuse did a good job against a team not fully prepared for their zone. It's really not any more complicate than that.



Being "in" all these games is great, but we are in these games against some mid to low tier acc teams. Clemson is the exception I guess, but I still don't think they're very good.

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 09:51 AM
While we may not be "exhausted", we are definitely at a disadvantage at the end of these games, and that's when we need to be at our best.

I'd be surprised if this could be shown statistically, though. I'm not even saying you're wrong (as stats can deceive), but I believe in all four of the close losses, the opponent has had a 6-8 point lead down the stretch that Duke was able to slice down to the point where it's one possession, a tie, or even a temporary Duke lead. If Duke were that exhausted, I think the opponent would've blown the game open by taking the 6-8 point lead and making it 12-14 points, but instead Duke was the one who made the run.

Again, not saying you're wrong. I believe such a short rotation probably does cause some fatigue issues. But, so far, I believe Duke has experienced it as a "throughout the game" phenomenon rather than an "end of game" phenomenon.

CameronBornAndBred
01-19-2016, 10:01 AM
I'd be surprised if this could be shown statistically, though. I'm not even saying you're wrong (as stats can deceive), but I believe in all four of the close losses, the opponent has had a 6-8 point lead down the stretch that Duke was able to slice down to the point where it's one possession, a tie, or even a temporary Duke lead. If Duke were that exhausted, I think the opponent would've blown the game open by taking the 6-8 point lead and making it 12-14 points, but instead Duke was the one who made the run.

Again, not saying you're wrong. I believe such a short rotation probably does cause some fatigue issues. But, so far, I believe Duke has experienced it as a "throughout the game" phenomenon rather than an "end of game" phenomenon.
I'm thinking if we are on more equal footing with those teams (in terms of fatigue) then those 6-8 point leads by the other teams probably would not exist. I love that we've been able to close the gaps in our games, but if we aren't tired, then we aren't having to come from behind at all. Of course that's hypothetical since we don't know what would happen if we're playing more than 6 guys, but the reasoning is sound, I think.

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 10:01 AM
There 13 games left for sure, counting the ACC tourney. If Duke goes ~ .500 the rest of the way, the record could be 20-12 (schedule is backloaded, so I counted the extra game as a loss). Is that enough to get in the tourney? I think Duke needs to steal at least one from UNC.

For sure. I again refer you guys to Bracket Matrix (http://www.bracketmatrix.com/) to track these things. Before last night's loss, we were actually a 4 or 5 seed. We'll be lower now but still far from the bubble.

We would have to go 0-for-6 against [Louisville x 2, UNC x 2, UVA, @Miami] to miss the tournament, which won't happen, especially since Amile will be back for some of that.

A 9-9 ACC record with a home win against UVA and a home win against either Louisville or UNC would do it.

stillcrazie
01-19-2016, 10:01 AM
Anyone else on here getting posts about Coach K coming close to totally bypassing shaking hands with the Syracuse kids after the game? Looking at the video that I saw he barely shook a hand or two basically rushing by the rest of the Orange kids.
The posts were saying something to the effect of K showing his true class. I didn't know how to answer, so I didn't.

This is all over the news right now - USA Today, Bleacher Report, Sporting News, etc. K did shake a few hands, but I saw it live - he did walk right past quite a few players, leaving himself open for comments about his sportsmanship. And we know that people are waiting to pounce.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/01/19/coach-mike-krzyzewski-snubs-syracuse-players-following-loss/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2609031-coach-k-skips-over-handshakes-with-multiple-syracuse-players

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 10:03 AM
I'm thinking if we are on more equal footing with those teams (in terms of fatigue) then those 6-8 point leads by the other teams probably would not exist. I love that we've been able to close the gaps in our games, but if we aren't tired, then we aren't having to come from behind at all. Of course that's hypothetical since we don't know what would happen if we're playing more than 6 guys, but the reasoning is sound, I think.

Right, we are mostly in agreement then that the fatigue is a "throughout the game" phenomenon.

CameronBornAndBred
01-19-2016, 10:04 AM
Right, we are mostly in agreement then that the fatigue is a "throughout the game" phenomenon.
Yes, definitely. I'm happy we don't play again until Saturday.

Neals384
01-19-2016, 10:06 AM
I'd be surprised if this could be shown statistically, though. I'm not even saying you're wrong (as stats can deceive), but I believe in all four of the close losses, the opponent has had a 6-8 point lead down the stretch that Duke was able to slice down to the point where it's one possession, a tie, or even a temporary Duke lead. If Duke were that exhausted, I think the opponent would've blown the game open by taking the 6-8 point lead and making it 12-14 points, but instead Duke was the one who made the run.

Again, not saying you're wrong. I believe such a short rotation probably does cause some fatigue issues. But, so far, I believe Duke has experienced it as a "throughout the game" phenomenon rather than an "end of game" phenomenon.

Very proud of the way this team fights to the very end. There's no quit in these kids.


Lots of thoughts swirling. I'll start with the fact that I'm glad I'm 38 years old and not 28. These things just don't affect me like they did 10 years ago. Thank goodness for a little perspective. It probably also helps that I've been in Disney World with my family during these last two games!

Have you considered counseling?:rolleyes:

duke09hms
01-19-2016, 10:08 AM
I'm thinking if we are on more equal footing with those teams (in terms of fatigue) then those 6-8 point leads by the other teams probably would not exist. I love that we've been able to close the gaps in our games, but if we aren't tired, then we aren't having to come from behind at all. Of course that's hypothetical since we don't know what would happen if we're playing more than 6 guys, but the reasoning is sound, I think.

But you would expect to see fatigue take hold toward the end of the games. If we're already falling behind throughout the game, that's just because the other team is outplaying us, not because we're fatiguing. Especially since last night was a fairly slow-paced game, and we actually managed to cut into the lead when fatigue would be at its strongest.

Channing
01-19-2016, 10:12 AM
I would like to show Marshall some video of Mason's senior year so he can see how you are supposed to hedge a screen. Staying low on the screen gives the ball handler an easy drop-off to the roller, which has burnt us all year, and really burnt us last night. I also thought I saw Roberson mauling some of our guys on rebounds where he got them over the top. I was glad that finally, at one point, Matt Jones really put a body on him and drove him out of the lane.

tux
01-19-2016, 10:16 AM
Right, we are mostly in agreement then that the fatigue is a "throughout the game" phenomenon.

Fatigue may be factor but I don't think it's the main one. Honestly, I feel like we're just getting killed on the boards. Second chance points are back-breaking for a team. Marshall is the only player getting major minutes for who rebounding is a primary focus. I.e., guys in the backcourt may snag a rebound here and there, but they're not used to being the primary guys working the boards. At one point last night, a missed Syracuse shot fell into the lane and four Duke players all stood around and watched it bounce before Thornton finally picked it up. The effort is there, but I don't see guys really pursuing missed shots like it's *their* rebound to get... That's where we really miss Amile; he probably would have cut Syracuse's second chance points in half, and that would have been the difference. That said, Amile is not some panacea. He was great during a relatively easy stretch of our schedule. He will make a difference when/if he returns, but it's not like getting Brand or Boozer back. But it should help.

gumbomoop
01-19-2016, 10:20 AM
Anyone else on here getting posts about Coach K coming close to totally bypassing shaking hands with the Syracuse kids after the game? Looking at the video that I saw he barely shook a hand or two basically rushing by the rest of the Orange kids.
The posts were saying something to the effect of K showing his true class. I didn't know how to answer, so I didn't.

No posts, but that's because the only people (literally) I talk bball with are EK posters.

I'm always irritated when the cameras don't linger on the postgame handshake line. Only takes 30 seconds, seems the right way to remind us that sportsmanship is important.

Last night, we saw Krzyzewski and Boeheim shake hands, then the camera went somewhere else for maybe 5-10 (?) seconds, then back to K walking past end of line players. It did not appear he was shaking anyone's hands by then. I was disappointed. K was obviously very angry. It appeared he was looking for the refs, to give them an earful; but I can't be sure that's who his eyes were searching for. Anyhow, if the camera showed a representative sample of K's walk down the handshake line, it was not good sportsmanship.

The presser comments also disappoint me. Neither of the 2 controversial calls was "amazing," by which he meant "amazingly bad." Yes, a foul might have been called at the foul line, though my impression upon seeing the replay was that a no-call was hardly outrageous. Wouldn't have been a horrible call if it had gone Duke's way, either. As to the desperation last second shot, rarely do officials call that, even if they should. Again, not an outrageous non-call.

If by chance K did not shake the hands of the Syracuse players [the missing camera seconds], I very much hope he went to the Syracuse dressing room to congratulate several of them for their admirable play. The psychological/emotional attribute I most admire in sports is relentlessness. Roberson's relentless offensive rebounding was, well, amazing. Plumlee was pretty relentless, too.

Krzyzewski is often charming, great sense of humor [nice, self-effacing emoji commercial last night], genuinely humane. He has another side, one that used to erupt too regularly, now infrequently. Last night was not an admirable moment.

TruBlu
01-19-2016, 10:22 AM
Yes, definitely. I'm happy we don't play again until Saturday.

True that. And although we play away at Miami the following Monday (Jan 25), we then have an 8 day break before playing at Ga Tech on Tuesday (Feb 2th - Groundhog Day).

So some chances coming up to rest and re-energize . . . and maybe:

(1) study some film on how to rebound on the defensive end
(2) reexamine our defensive strategery.

Definitely haven't given up on our team, but they are not helping me battle my onset of grey hairs.

tux
01-19-2016, 10:31 AM
No posts, but that's because the only people (literally) I talk bball with are EK posters.

I'm always irritated when the cameras don't linger on the postgame handshake line. Only takes 30 seconds, seems the right way to remind us that sportsmanship is important.

Last night, we saw Krzyzewski and Boeheim shake hands, then the camera went somewhere else for maybe 5-10 (?) seconds, then back to K walking past end of line players. It did not appear he was shaking anyone's hands by then. I was disappointed. K was obviously very angry. It appeared he was looking for the refs, to give them an earful; but I can't be sure that's who his eyes were searching for. Anyhow, if the camera showed a representative sample of K's walk down the handshake line, it was not good sportsmanship.

The presser comments also disappoint me. Neither of the 2 controversial calls was "amazing," by which he meant "amazingly bad." Yes, a foul might have been called at the foul line, though my impression upon seeing the replay was that a no-call was hardly outrageous. Wouldn't have been a horrible call if it had gone Duke's way, either. As to the desperation last second shot, rarely do officials call that, even if they should. Again, not an outrageous non-call.

If by chance K did not shake the hands of the Syracuse players [the missing camera seconds], I very much hope he went to the Syracuse dressing room to congratulate several of them for their admirable play. The psychological/emotional attribute I most admire in sports is relentlessness. Roberson's relentless offensive rebounding was, well, amazing. Plumlee was pretty relentless, too.

Krzyzewski is often charming, great sense of humor [nice, self-effacing emoji commercial last night], genuinely humane. He has another side, one that used to erupt too regularly, now infrequently. Last night was not an admirable moment.

He was obviously looking for the refs. That's the end of the court that they walk off. And I'm sure they left in a hurry. K almost never blows past the handshake line; in fact, he typically takes (relatively) quite a bit of time with opposing players and coaches. So, I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt last night. Also, K saw that last sequence in real time w/o the benefit of a replay. So, while we can all agree that it was very close to a 50/50 play, K had a single angle in real time. The team is playing hard, and they're coming up short, and K is fighting for his team. He was fuming after the game, thought his team deserved a call (and after some sloppy officiating at Clemson as well that probably didn't help) --- Long story short: Let's drop the pearl clutching over K not shaking every hand last night...

Saratoga2
01-19-2016, 10:36 AM
I thought he was talking about the no call on what was a three point attempt to end the game. It was clearly an attempt to throw up a three and just as clearly a foul.

The refs were not going to call that one either. I think that is what coach K was talking about also.

oldnavy
01-19-2016, 10:48 AM
He was obviously looking for the refs. That's the end of the court that they walk off. And I'm sure they left in a hurry. K almost never blows past the handshake line; in fact, he typically takes (relatively) quite a bit of time with opposing players and coaches. So, I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt last night. Also, K saw that last sequence in real time w/o the benefit of a replay. So, while we can all agree that it was very close to a 50/50 play, K had a single angle in real time. The team is playing hard, and they're coming up short, and K is fighting for his team. He was fuming after the game, thought his team deserved a call (and after some sloppy officiating at Clemson as well that probably didn't help) --- Long story short: Let's drop the pearl clutching over K not shaking every hand last night...

Who knows what was going on in his head. It's not like he snubbed the entire handshake line, he did shake some hands. His mind was obviously somewhere else in that moment.

I've heard enough about K's good works and acts of kindness to not be moved by this 5 second clip. He is usually very gracious in defeat and has more class than MOST if not all other ACC coaches.

Hey, it's not like he lead a retreat to the locker room leaving 5 walk-ons on the court at the end of a blow out, or is just coming off a 9 game suspension for cheating, or is defending his after hours extramarital dalliances in a restaurant, or.... so on and so on...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-19-2016, 10:52 AM
The refs were not going to call that one either. I think that is what coach K was talking about also.

For what it is worth too, Syracuse was trying to foul. They still had one (or two?) to give. Break up the play, eat clock, make them inbound the ball. Duke wanted them NOT to get fouled to run a play

As long as a Duke player wasn't shooting, they could play crazy aggressive. As soon as a player makes a move to shoot, you fall off him as fast as possible. At that point, of course, Duke wants the call, and stopped clock points.

Nearly an impossible scenario to referee smoothly.

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 10:53 AM
MP3 was awesome! IMO, his best game at Duke. We should win 9 out of 10 when he plays like he did yesterday. Here's hoping we just saw the new and improved Marshall.

kAzE
01-19-2016, 11:00 AM
MP3 was awesome! IMO, his best game at Duke. We should win 9 out of 10 when he plays like he did yesterday. Here's hoping we just saw the new and improved Marshall.

Yeah, he tends to step it up when our usual offensive stars are struggling. He's done well developing moves in the post. It wasn't 3 weeks ago when all of us were saying "never try to post MP3 up," and now he's drop step dunking on everyone.

Still, we're not going to do much when Luke goes 0-9. That can't happen. He cannot lose confidence in himself like that again.

jv001
01-19-2016, 11:01 AM
MP3 was awesome! IMO, his best game at Duke. We should win 9 out of 10 when he plays like he did yesterday. Here's hoping we just saw the new and improved Marshall.

I think we've seen a very improved MPIII for most of the year. He's never going to be an All-American, but he's playing light years better than previous years. Now if we can just get Amile back, he'll have his playing partner back that can rebound with him. GoDuke!

jv001
01-19-2016, 11:05 AM
Yeah, he tends to step it up when our usual offensive stars are struggling. He's done well developing moves in the post. It wasn't 3 weeks ago when all of us were saying "never try to post MP3 up," and now he's drop step dunking on everyone.

Still, we're not going to do much when Luke goes 0-9. That can't happen. He cannot lose confidence in himself like that again.

Good point, you could tell that he became hesitant and even quit shooting. In previous games he would take the ball to the basket and make things happen. The zone seemed to confuse him and that should come as no surprise because the Cuse Zone has confused many players. GoDuke!

SupaDave
01-19-2016, 11:06 AM
The guys are playing with heart, tired legs, and--IMO--wavering confidence.

63% of our field goals today were behind the three-point line. That's not ideal.

Team's going through a rough patch. Everything builds toward March. We'll see what Coach & Co. have in store; as ever, it's an honor to root for this team and University.

Enjoy K every game you can. We saw a master at work last season when the ceiling was obviously higher, and we're seeing a master at work when the ceiling may not be.

I basically searched this thread for this one comment. Mike Corey lays it down simple for you. THIS to me was the largest part of our deconstruct. I doubt anyone took a shot between 10 and 15 feet - which is absolutely necessary against a zone b/c it makes them have pack it in a bit more. Out on the perimeter we were unsure and hesitant at times b/c of the zone. Even had to shoot a few bad 3's at the end of the shot clock b/c of passing the ball around the perimeter looking for a "good" 3. At one point in the game we were 7-29 from 3. It happens. Good to get it out of your system I suppose.

The passing the ball around the perimeter REALLY pains me - and in this situation I would have used Ingram more like Lance Thomas/Dave McClure than Winslow. Why? B/c after the missed shots - Gbinije was back at practice in Cameron Indoor. Instead Ingram's on the perimeter with no way to adequately recover. Someone said they felt we got out coached and I don't think that's necessarily true - I think K is gonna always let his teams handle adversity with their style of play. Ingram doesn't want to be a foul monster so keep him out of the paint - I get it.

We get horribly out rebounded - but I don't think it was an effort issue. Definitely a personnel issue b/c that Syracuse rebound monster was only 6'7. And again - Ingram is on the perimeter. (in his defense he did have one special put back)

This team hasn't been hit with a knock-out blow and they have to learn how to win just as others have. I think an ACC tourney championship is well within our grasp with Amile on the court. Thornton will be a different player come March. His confidence grew a little last night.

As long as I see growth - I'm gucci...

devildeac
01-19-2016, 11:10 AM
The refs were not going to call that one either. I think that is what coach K was talking about also.

As I sent in a PM to one of the mods regarding the non-terping rule: the acc refs get paid big bucks to ref in a major conference and if it's a foul in the first second, it's a foul in the last second (paraphrasing Wheat who has said many times "a foul is a foul"), whether the game is on the line or it's a meaningless play with one team up by 10-20 points. If the "amazing" non-call on Matt's last second shot came after the 0:00 mark, then the game is over, just like the 1st half was over when an official review showed clearly that Allen's shot was just after the 0:00 mark. If it came with 0:01 remaining, it's a foul and we shoot FT (expecting of course to miss 2 out of 3 with the way our luck/FT shooting has been the last 2-3 games:rolleyes:). I also realize that we're not going to win many games missing 27 3s and/or giving up ~12 O-boards on (almost) any opponents' first ~15 shots in a half, either.

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 11:16 AM
Still, we're not going to do much when Luke goes 0-9. That can't happen. He cannot lose confidence in himself like that again.

I fully agree that Luke must be Luke. Luke is usually full of attitude and I suspect he will regain it in very short order.

IMO, MP3 goes 19 & 17 and we will win 9 out of 10, because at least 2 of our 3 scorers will put up very good numbers. Holding all 3 of our best scorers under 20 will not happen often (maybe, not again this year).

Saratoga2
01-19-2016, 11:17 AM
I basically searched this thread for this one comment. Mike Corey lays it down simple for you. THIS to me was the largest part of our deconstruct. I doubt anyone took a shot between 10 and 15 feet - which is absolutely necessary against a zone b/c it makes them have pack it in a bit more. Out on the perimeter we were unsure and hesitant at times b/c of the zone. Even had to shoot a few bad 3's at the end of the shot clock b/c of passing the ball around the perimeter looking for a "good" 3. At one point in the game we were 7-29 from 3. It happens. Good to get it out of your system I suppose.

The passing the ball around the perimeter REALLY pains me - and in this situation I would have used Ingram more like Lance Thomas/Dave McClure than Winslow. Why? B/c after the missed shots - Gbinije was back at practice in Cameron Indoor. Instead Ingram's on the perimeter with no way to adequately recover. Someone said they felt we got out coached and I don't think that's necessarily true - I think K is gonna always let his teams handle adversity with their style of play. Ingram doesn't want to be a foul monster so keep him out of the paint - I get it.

We get horribly out rebounded - but I don't think it was an effort issue. Definitely a personnel issue b/c that Syracuse rebound monster was only 6'7. And again - Ingram is on the perimeter. (in his defense he did have one special put back)

This team hasn't been hit with a knock-out blow and they have to learn how to win just as others have. I think an ACC tourney championship is well within our grasp with Amile on the court. Thornton will be a different player come March. His confidence grew a little last night.

As long as I see growth - I'm gucci...

Syracuse got 49 rebounds to our 45. They got offensive rebounds and second chance points and that killed us. But Marshall had 17 rebounds and Brandon had 11 so horribly outrebounded without qualification doesn't make sense.

KIds Like Luke can have bad days unrelated to playing BB. Girlfriends, school, family issues, illness, etc. Those then can impact play on a particular night. You have to look at the total record to look for trends. The closest reason for poor shooting last night was the Syracuse zone did bother some of the kids that hadn't seen it;

gumbomoop
01-19-2016, 11:21 AM
Long story short: Let's drop the pearl clutching over K not shaking every hand last night...

This zinger is aimed at me. And funny. I thought I was more matter-of-fact critical than shocked-aghast critical. And tux has not persuaded me that K gets a pass here. But the zinger's a pearl, which I mean as a compliment.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 11:21 AM
Fatigue may be factor but I don't think it's the main one. Honestly, I feel like we're just getting killed on the boards. Second chance points are back-breaking for a team. Marshall is the only player getting major minutes for who rebounding is a primary focus. I.e., guys in the backcourt may snag a rebound here and there, but they're not used to being the primary guys working the boards. At one point last night, a missed Syracuse shot fell into the lane and four Duke players all stood around and watched it bounce before Thornton finally picked it up. The effort is there, but I don't see guys really pursuing missed shots like it's *their* rebound to get... That's where we really miss Amile; he probably would have cut Syracuse's second chance points in half, and that would have been the difference. That said, Amile is not some panacea. He was great during a relatively easy stretch of our schedule. He will make a difference when/if he returns, but it's not like getting Brand or Boozer back. But it should help.

I disagree with Amile not being a panacea. Sure, he's no Brand or Boozer, but he's exactly what this team is missing right now.

- An extra body to absorb foul trouble and reduce fatigue
- Another offensive threat in the post that will be even more valuable now that MP3 has shown some scoring chops
- An effective rebounder - 19.2% defensive, 17.7% offensive, 18.5% total. Best on the team.
- A senior communicator on defense. He was better at this than Plumlee has been, IMO.
- A competent 1 on 1 post defender.

I am in the camp that Amile is the difference between 18-1 and 14-5 right now.

jv001
01-19-2016, 11:23 AM
I disagree with Amile not being a panacea. Sure, he's no Brand or Boozer, but he's exactly what this team is missing right now.

- An extra body to absorb foul trouble and reduce fatigue
- Another offensive threat in the post that will be even more valuable now that MP3 has shown some scoring chops
- An effective rebounder - 19.2% defensive, 17.7% offensive, 18.5% total. Best on the team.
- A senior communicator on defense. He was better at this than Plumlee has been, IMO.
- A competent 1 on 1 post defender.

I am in the camp that Amile is the difference between 18-1 and 14-5 right now.

Count me in on the 18-1 with the way Amile was playing. GoDuke!

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 11:30 AM
I disagree with Amile not being a panacea. Sure, he's no Brand or Boozer, but he's exactly what this team is missing right now.

- An extra body to absorb foul trouble and reduce fatigue
- Another offensive threat in the post that will be even more valuable now that MP3 has shown some scoring chops
- An effective rebounder - 19.2% defensive, 17.7% offensive, 18.5% total. Best on the team.
- A senior communicator on defense. He was better at this than Plumlee has been, IMO.
- A competent 1 on 1 post defender.

I am in the camp that Amile is the difference between 18-1 and 14-5 right now.

I agree that with Amile we're a top 10 team and without we should not be ranked. However, we should have been much better prepared to lose a big. Transfers are rare and usually very important to our success. If we had done this well, we would be a top 20 team without Amile. You've seen transfers play at the college level (unlike an incoming freshman) and should be able to better estimate their value to your program.

tux
01-19-2016, 11:32 AM
I disagree with Amile not being a panacea. Sure, he's no Brand or Boozer, but he's exactly what this team is missing right now.

- An extra body to absorb foul trouble and reduce fatigue
- Another offensive threat in the post that will be even more valuable now that MP3 has shown some scoring chops
- An effective rebounder - 19.2% defensive, 17.7% offensive, 18.5% total. Best on the team.
- A senior communicator on defense. He was better at this than Plumlee has been, IMO.
- A competent 1 on 1 post defender.

I am in the camp that Amile is the difference between 18-1 and 14-5 right now.

You make a compelling case. And I hope you're right. If Amile can come back at full strength and give Duke those same numbers going forward, the strides that Marshall has made will make Duke a dangerous team in March. It's too bad that Jeter hasn't also improved enough to give us 5-7 minutes in a backup (energy) role during this stretch. A 7.5 to 8 man rotation with Amile healthy would be awesome.

One thing I will say re: Amile. Duke doesn't run a ton of plays for him, so you'd hope it would be easier to plug him back into the lineup without creating much disruption. E.g., when a player like Kyrie came back, it was unclear who needed the ball in their hands...

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 11:33 AM
I agree that with Amile we're a top 10 team and without we should not be ranked. However, we should have been much better prepared to lose a big. Transfers are rare and usually very important to our success. If we had done this well, we would be a top 20 team without Amile.

Obi was supposed to be a contingency, as was Chase Jeter.

Unfortunately, neither has proven 100% ready for ACC play. Obi was very solid at Rice as a freshman, so he's more of a surprise than Jeter.

But you can't say they weren't prepared. Sometimes, you get unlucky.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 11:34 AM
You make a compelling case. And I hope you're right. If Amile can come back at full strength and give Duke those same numbers going forward, the strides that Marshall has made will make Duke a dangerous team in March. It's too bad that Jeter hasn't also improved enough to give us 5-7 minutes in a backup (energy) role during this stretch. A 7.5 to 8 man rotation with Amile healthy would be awesome.

One thing I will say re: Amile. Duke doesn't run a ton of plays for him, so you'd hope it would be easier to plug him back into the lineup without creating much disruption. E.g., when a player like Kyrie came back, it was unclear who needed the ball in their hands...

Yea, I think integrating Amile into the rotation will be much more seamless than integrating Kyrie, Ryan Kelly, Boozer or Brand. That's why it's almost better to get a glue guy back like Amile. He can come right back in and feel like he never left.

I do wonder what happens to MP3's offensive role when Amile comes back and is down on the block with him. Will it be too crowded? Can we still find MP3 for easy dunks?

Rudy
01-19-2016, 11:36 AM
apologies, my french conjugation is a bit out of practice...beaux.

;) Worse and worse ! Beaux is the plural of beau. Proper term is "belle".

Signed,
The Old Fart Grammarian

Also,

Let's drop the pearl clutching over K not shaking every hand last night...

It's not pearl clutching to say that was an error. It looked like a distraction issue on tape and I'm sure no disrespect to the players was intended. It was a rare oversight by Coach K for which I hope and expect he will apologize.

fuse
01-19-2016, 11:48 AM
I may have brought it up in a prior game thread- if so I apologise in advance.

I'm not sure why the refs have not picked up on it.
The majority of Marshall's points down low seem to be coming when he receives the ball out of bounds.
To be clear, what I mean is when Marshall is lurking baseline to receive a pass, it appears on TV way more often than not his back foot is on the line and out of bounds.

Here's hoping for continued success of this play.

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 11:49 AM
Unfortunately, neither has proven 100% ready for ACC play. Obi was very solid at Rice as a freshman, so he's more of a surprise than Jeter.

But you can't say they weren't prepared. Sometimes, you get unlucky.

If Obi had been hurt badly, after transferring, then we would have been unlucky, as we were with Amile.

We totally misevaluated how well Obi would do in ACC play. Our staff is totally accountable and responsible for that mistake. Look at who Rice played when Obi put up solid Freshman numbers. How quick was Obi, how well did he move, how solid was his footwork, how high did he leap, etc., at Rice?

Sir Stealth
01-19-2016, 11:56 AM
The losses have been frustrating, but this team still has tons of potential and is fully capable of beating UNC and making noise in the postseason, which are the only things that really matter. I expect that we will have some quality hard fought wins to go with our hard fought losses. With the turnover and Amile's injury there are clearly some things that need to be figured out, but K usually gets to the right solution.

I agree with those that say we need to try to decrease minutes, especially for our guards. In basketball it is just so much more difficult to get rebounds, get back on D, and prevent runs in momentum when you are also really tired. As annoying as Vitale is, I think he made a good point that, if you have guys who are good enough to be given a scholarship to play at Duke, you should be able to put them in for a handful of minutes without it being a disaster. As bad as they have looked at times, surely between Obi, Jeter, or even Vrankovic there is someone there who can be trusted to play in small spurts at the 4 so that Ingram can rotate to wing and give Matt/Grayson/Luke a little more rest. The team seemed to dig deep to play hard and and get rebounds and loose balls at the end, but the constant defensive breakdowns suggest that fatigue was still a factor.

I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but even on the surface there looks to be more that can be done to give these guys confidence that they can play at this level - hell Obi isn't even allowed to sit with the players who actually play. Amile has a designated spot in the middle of the bench that separates the players from the scrubs. We will have to see what K thinks, but I would predict some relenting on the dug in philosophy that only the best players should ever play.

I was among those disappointed by K's skimming of the handshake line and by his postgame comments. For the handshake, I think that he was frustrated/looking for the refs in the heat of the moment, and I actually expect it to come out later that he apologized to Syracuse's team for that. As much as I agree with his assessment that the endgame was "amazing," it really does us no good to complain. We have seen it critically from the other side time and again, and it's always best just to take the high road. I'm glad that K still has the fire to be that upset though, and I look forward to channeling it into turning this thing around.

szstark
01-19-2016, 12:07 PM
Totally befuddled by the zone and painfully unprepared. Spectacular game for Marshall.
Amile is a great kid and has really contributed for three years. That said, he is a journeyman
ACC player and not a star. Most like;y he will play in Europe. Putting all our hopes and dreams
on him is wishful thinking and FAR too much pressure will be on him when he returns. Our
problems are much more than one injured player. Agree with several of the posters about
player evaluation prior to recruiting. How could we have been so wrong?

I don't think anyone expects Amile to be a superhuman savior to all that ails us. However, Amile's injury has had a ripple effect throughout the lineup. It leaves Plumlee as the only big with experience. It moves Ingram to the 4 where he is a nightmare matchup for others on offense, but a liability on defense because of his lack of bulk, strength, and experience. He is the second big on the defensive boards and that doesn't work. It also requires guys who were expected to play 15 or 20 minutes and develop to play 25 or 30 minutes and produce immediately. It removes 5 additional fouls from the regular rotation and therefore reduces how aggressive our defense can be. In addition, we have a kid who should be in high school trying to be an elite point guard as a freshman. Being an elite point guard as a freshman is rarely accomplished and you can probably name the few exceptions because they are exceptions. That puts other players out of position. Matt Jones is not a point guard, so he is spending way more time than expected in that role which, obviously, takes him out of his natural role as a spot-up 2 guard or occasional 3. The same can be said for Allen and Kennard, although to a lesser extent. Yes, this team has flaws, but Amile's absence has made things much worse. I don't think any of this has to do with poor player evaluation prior to recruiting.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:08 PM
If Obi had been hurt badly, after transferring, then we would have been unlucky, as we were with Amile.

We totally misevaluated how well Obi would do in ACC play. Our staff is totally accountable and responsible for that mistake. Look at who Rice played when Obi put up solid Freshman numbers. How quick was Obi, how well did he move, how solid was his footwork, how high did he leap, etc., at Rice?

As has been stated in other threads, Obi apparently has been fighting balky knees.

Kedsy
01-19-2016, 12:16 PM
I'm thinking if we are on more equal footing with those teams (in terms of fatigue) then those 6-8 point leads by the other teams probably would not exist. I love that we've been able to close the gaps in our games, but if we aren't tired, then we aren't having to come from behind at all. Of course that's hypothetical since we don't know what would happen if we're playing more than 6 guys, but the reasoning is sound, I think.

I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong, but in last night's game, Syracuse only played 7 guys and the 7th guy only played 7 minutes. Our 7th guy played 2 minutes. It's hard for me to imagine that five additional minutes of rest, spread out among five guys, would make that much of a difference, fatigue-wise. In other words, Syracuse should have been just as fatigued as we were (and maybe they were, I have no idea), so fatigue, at least as a relative matter, shouldn't have been an issue, at least last night.

Sir Stealth
01-19-2016, 12:21 PM
I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong, but in last night's game, Syracuse only played 7 guys and the 7th guy only played 7 minutes. Our 7th guy played 2 minutes. It's hard for me to imagine that five additional minutes of rest, spread out among five guys, would make that much of a difference, fatigue-wise. In other words, Syracuse should have been just as fatigued as we were (and maybe they were, I have no idea), so fatigue, at least as a relative matter, shouldn't have been an issue, at least last night.

Others have mentioned this and it may or may not have been a factor last night, but generally playing zone defense does help with fatigue. Syracuse obviously plays their zone HARD, but it still helps to be able to stay in one area rather than chase someone all over the court. On the flip side, Duke seemed to spend a ton of energy trying to break down the zone, frantically dribbling and kicking in traffic, never seeming comfortable. So style of play can contribute even if the numbers seem more or less equal.

porkpa
01-19-2016, 12:23 PM
I hate to be the one to say this, but facts are facts. Simply said, we were just outplayed and outcoached. We probably should have lost by more than two points. Prior to last night, our offense has been steady and our defense(rebounds mostly) questionable. Last night neither was effective.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:26 PM
I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong, but in last night's game, Syracuse only played 7 guys and the 7th guy only played 7 minutes. Our 7th guy played 2 minutes. It's hard for me to imagine that five additional minutes of rest, spread out among five guys, would make that much of a difference, fatigue-wise. In other words, Syracuse should have been just as fatigued as we were (and maybe they were, I have no idea), so fatigue, at least as a relative matter, shouldn't have been an issue, at least last night.

I think fatigue played a part, but was more attributable to Duke playing 3 intense games in 5 days vs. Syracuse having an easier time with Wake and BC before facing Duke than it was to depth.

Also, sitting in a 2-3 zone all game allows your guys to rest more on defense than running around screens, switching constantly, etc. Duke expends more energy on defense IMO.

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 12:26 PM
As has been stated in other threads, Obi apparently has been fighting balky knees.

I suspect those apparently balking knees would still be doing well at Rice.

CameronBornAndBred
01-19-2016, 12:28 PM
I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong, but in last night's game, Syracuse only played 7 guys and the 7th guy only played 7 minutes. Our 7th guy played 2 minutes. It's hard for me to imagine that five additional minutes of rest, spread out among five guys, would make that much of a difference, fatigue-wise. In other words, Syracuse should have been just as fatigued as we were (and maybe they were, I have no idea), so fatigue, at least as a relative matter, shouldn't have been an issue, at least last night.
I'm not looking at this in a single game, I'm looking at the fatigue as a cumulative result over many games. Our 7 would be naturally more fatigued than theirs at the tip-off. It's the bigger picture that has me concerned.

sagegrouse
01-19-2016, 12:30 PM
Fatigue may be factor but I don't think it's the main one. Honestly, I feel like we're just getting killed on the boards. Second chance points are back-breaking for a team. Marshall is the only player getting major minutes for who rebounding is a primary focus. I.e., guys in the backcourt may snag a rebound here and there, but they're not used to being the primary guys working the boards. At one point last night, a missed Syracuse shot fell into the lane and four Duke players all stood around and watched it bounce before Thornton finally picked it up. The effort is there, but I don't see guys really pursuing missed shots like it's *their* rebound to get... That's where we really miss Amile; he probably would have cut Syracuse's second chance points in half, and that would have been the difference. That said, Amile is not some panacea. He was great during a relatively easy stretch of our schedule. He will make a difference when/if he returns, but it's not like getting Brand or Boozer back. But it should help.

We have four days off until playing State (there, but "home cooking and pillow") and a quick turnaround for Miami (totally road). After that, we have seven days off before going to Atlanta to play Georgia Tech. I am looking for major improvements in the next two weeks.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:30 PM
I suspect those apparently balking knees would still be doing well at Rice.

Maybe, maybe not. There really isn't any way to tell, is there? So what's the point of speculating? The reality is that Obi and Jeter have not been able to contribute meaningful minutes in ACC play.

Rice is in Conference USA, which is a mid-major. It's not the ACC, but it's also not the Big South.

eddiehaskell
01-19-2016, 12:31 PM
Best case scenario, Obi would be what a 5-10 minute player? Great to have, but probably not a game changer. Right now, I'm guessing he's a decent opponent for Amile to match up with in practice. On a team that absolutely had to play Obi - maybe he's decent enough? That doesn't mean this team doesn't have several combinations that are better without him. We all knew this team would give 7 players decent burn - we just happened to lose a guy where we absolutely couldn't lose one. If Matt, Grayson or even Ingram had the same injury, this team would likely be better at the moment (long term maybe not as Amile is easier to plug back in).

kAzE
01-19-2016, 12:36 PM
Best case scenario, Obi would be what a 5-10 minute player? Great to have, but probably not a game changer. Right now, I'm guessing he's a decent opponent for Amile to match up with in practice. On a team that absolutely had to play Obi - maybe he's decent enough? That doesn't mean this team doesn't have several combinations that are better without him. We all knew this team would give 7 players decent burn - we just happened to lose a guy where we absolutely couldn't lose one. If Matt, Grayson or even Ingram had the same injury, this team would likely be better at the moment (long term maybe not as Amile is easier to plug back in).

I disagree there . . . Brandon is the one game changer that we have who can do things that no one else can replicate. Luke at least can reasonably impersonate Matt or Grayson and vice versa, but nobody else has the versatility of Brandon. Our entire front line needed to stay healthy for a really successful season. We need Brandon, Amile, AND Marshall to be a really good team.

Agreed on Obi, though, I'm not giving up hope on him or Chase, but at this point, we don't have time to wait on them. Just gotta pray that Amile gets back to 100% ASAP.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:37 PM
I disagree there . . . Brandon is the one game changer that we have who can do things that no one else can replicate. Luke at least can reasonably impersonate Matt or Grayson, but nobody else has the versatility of Brandon. Our entire front line needed to stay healthy for a really successful season. We need Brandon, Amile, AND Marshall to be a really good team.

Agree. Ingram provides inside and outside scoring, disruptive length on defense, shotblocking and rebounding.

No one else on the team has that combination of skills.

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 12:40 PM
The reality is that Obi and Jeter have not been able to contribute meaningful minutes in ACC play.

Rice is in Conference USA, which is a mid-major. It's not the ACC, but it's also not the Big South.

IMO, projecting how well a player will move from a mid-major to the ACC is easier to do than from high school to the ACC. Are you saying you thought Obi moved much quicker, better, etc. at Rice than he does now and the sole problem is an unlucky medical condition which occurred after his arrival at Duke?

swood1000
01-19-2016, 12:41 PM
Check out the post-game presser by Coach K. There is a distinct difference in the actual words spoken by Coach K and what was posted by Duke Sports Information

(I would post the link to the presser, but I am having trouble trying to link it.) It's just over 6 minutes long, and the words to compare to the first quote below are about 1-2 minutes in.


Duke Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski

On driving to the goal as much as Duke would have liked to:
“No, you would like to drive a little bit more. Although we did right at the end of the game, and it was an amazing ending. The last play is amazing. Have you seen it? Go see it, it is literally amazing. The play with Matt Jones at the foul line, it is amazing basketball; let’s just put it that way.”

On finishing the last four games:
“It’s not the finish, they were one possession. We put ourselves in a position to win. Matt Jones made a great play, and he was not rewarded. He made a great play. It’s amazing. It’s literally amazing. God Bless America.”

Methinks he was being extremely sarcastic in the post-game interview concerning the two topics above, and even went so far as reviewing what the DSI put out there and made a few modifications to the actual transcript!!:eek: Wow!

ricks
Here are the final minutes of the Syracuse game. Was Jones fouled in the act of shooting when he was at the foul line?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYIL1whdfhY&feature=youtu.be

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 12:44 PM
Agree. Ingram provides inside and outside scoring, disruptive length on defense, shotblocking and rebounding.

No one else on the team has that combination of skills.

Agree, Ingram goes in the top 10, probably top 5, of the next NBA draft for a very good reason.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:45 PM
IMO, projecting how well a player will move from a mid-major to the ACC is easier to do than from high school to the ACC. Are you saying you thought Obi moved much quicker, better, etc. at Rice than he does now and the sole problem is an unlucky medical condition which occurred after his arrival at Duke?

I'm not saying any of that. You're the one speculating.

The entire premise of your argument is that recruiting (HS players or transfers or otherwise) is an exact science that coaching staffs can predict with 100% certainty. It's folly to think that.

Sometimes recruits and transfers don't work out. It happens.

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 12:46 PM
As has been stated in other threads, Obi apparently has been fighting balky knees.

I know it is an abysmally small sample size, but in his 20 minutes of play this year, he has 7 fouls and 6 rebounds. Against Cuse he turned the ball over once and committed a foul in two minutes of play. Hard to stay on the floor much with that kind of stat line.

kAzE
01-19-2016, 12:48 PM
Here are the final minutes of the Syrcuse game. Was Jones fouled in the act of shooting when he was at the foul line?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYIL1whdfhY&feature=youtu.be

It's way too hard to tell without slow-mo HD video. It's very possible that the defender got all ball. The actual collision that took place was probably not a foul either way, since both players were going for a loose ball. Both of Matt's hands went straight up as if he lost the ball on the way up, without any significant change of motion to either arm. But there was clearly a foul on the 3/4 court heave.

sagegrouse
01-19-2016, 12:49 PM
I know it is an abysmally small sample size, but in his 20 minutes of play this year, he has 7 fouls and 6 rebounds. Against Cuse he turned the ball over once and committed a foul in two minutes of play. Hard to stay on the floor much with that kind of stat line.

I thought Obi's TO was really on Derryck -- a pass to the ankles of a big man??

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:52 PM
I thought Obi's TO was really on Derryck -- a pass to the ankles of a big man??

Agreed. DT over-penetrated and looked to bail himself out with a tough pass.

oldnavy
01-19-2016, 12:53 PM
Here are the final minutes of the Syrcuse game. Was Jones fouled in the act of shooting when he was at the foul line?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYIL1whdfhY&feature=youtu.be

I have been pretty consistent in my critique of "over calling" games by officials, so I will say the no calls were ok. In fact on the Matt Jones rebound play, I would be OK if they never called that a foul because it seemed to me that both players were going for the ball, and I don't really know who you would assess the foul on. So, I'm good with the no call.

The last play, well... that really could have been called. That last play was extremely dangerous from a Syracuse POV because the odds of anyone hitting that shot have to be >100:1... so why chance a foul by contesting it?

On one hand I am happy no foul was called because can you imagine the chorus of "Duke gets all the calls" that would ensue???

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 12:53 PM
I'm not saying any of that. You're the one speculating.

"form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence"


Obi apparently has been fighting balky knees.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:56 PM
On one hand I am happy no foul was called because can you imagine the chorus of "Duke gets all the calls" that would ensue???

Oh, I'd totally trade hearing that all year long for 3 FTs and a possible win.

We're going to hear that anyway. We heard it after the game last night, where anti-Duke folks were reciting the party line of "Duke gets all the calls every other time, so they can't whine about this one."

And after the Miami FB game debacle, aren't we due at least ONE game changing call this year?

oldnavy
01-19-2016, 12:57 PM
Oh, I'd totally trade hearing that all year long for 3 FTs and a possible win.

We're going to hear that anyway. We heard it after the game last night, where anti-Duke folks were reciting the party line of "Duke gets all the calls every other time, so they can't whine about this one."

And after the Miami FB game debacle, aren't we due at least ONE game changing call this year?

I hear you, but to me it was questionable enough to not get a call... could see it either way actually so I'm just searching for a silver lining...

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 12:57 PM
"form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence"

This was not *my* personal speculation. This was what I read from previous threads, from people who are "in the know." As close to fact that you and I are going to get.

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 12:58 PM
I thought Obi's TO was really on Derryck -- a pass to the ankles of a big man??

you may be right...I don't recall the play. Still having more fouls than rebounds, for a guy who is supposed to be out there to rebound is not ideal.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 01:02 PM
you may be right...I don't recall the play. Still having more fouls than rebounds, for a guy who is supposed to be out there to rebound is not ideal.

Total number of rebounds isn't a great stat to look at. Rebounding rate is better. That is the % of rebounds you grab that were possible for you to grab (by virtue of being on the floor).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate

According to Sports Reference, Obi has a 16.3% rebounding rate. Vrankovic, who we never see, has a 29.2% rebounding rate. Chase Jeter, by comparison, is just 12.2%. Small sample sizes, sure. But interesting, nonetheless.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2016.html

Jeffrey
01-19-2016, 01:03 PM
The entire premise of your argument is that recruiting (HS players or transfers or otherwise) is an exact science that coaching staffs can predict with 100% certainty. It's folly to think that.


Not true. The premise of my argument is a staff of our caliber should have been able to do a better job of predicting (not 100% certainty, but not your 0% either by crediting it all to bad luck) how well Obi would do in the ACC.

swood1000
01-19-2016, 01:03 PM
It's way too hard to tell without slow-mo HD video. It's very possible that the defender got all ball. The actual collision that took place was probably not a foul either way, since both players were going for a loose ball. Both of Matt's hands went straight up as if he lost the ball on the way up, without any significant change of motion to either arm. But there was clearly a foul on the 3/4 court heave.
Doesn't really seem that Jones had possession.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yVuaJTZmRs&feature=youtu.be

eddiehaskell
01-19-2016, 01:03 PM
I don't disagree, but in these grinding games, I think Amile's superior rebounding, rim protection, intensity and better physical matchups would somewhat offset Ingram's attributes (assuming Luke doesn't have a 0-9 game).

Do Colson and Auguste combine for 25 rebounds with Amile mixing it up? Does Nnoko who averaged about 5 rebounds coming in grab 13 boards? Does Roberson grab what I'm assuming is a career high at 20 boards?

With Amile playing we matched Kentucky on the boards and out rebounded Georgetown, VCU and Indiana by good margins. We also won 3 out of 4 of those with Ingram as mostly a net negative.

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 01:09 PM
Total number of rebounds isn't a great stat to look at. Rebounding rate is better. That is the % of rebounds you grab that were possible for you to grab (by virtue of being on the floor).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate

According to Sports Reference, Obi has a 16.3% rebounding rate. Vrankovic, who we never see, has a 29.2% rebounding rate. Chase Jeter, by comparison, is just 12.2%. Small sample sizes, sure. But interesting, nonetheless.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2016.html

I agree, rebounding rate vice rebounds is a better evaluation, standing alone. But fouls>rebounds is a pretty big detractor!

Saratoga2
01-19-2016, 01:11 PM
Obi was supposed to be a contingency, as was Chase Jeter.

Unfortunately, neither has proven 100% ready for ACC play. Obi was very solid at Rice as a freshman, so he's more of a surprise than Jeter.

But you can't say they weren't prepared. Sometimes, you get unlucky.

Jeter didn't really impress in games against top high school talent. He didn't seem to have that physical game then and it hasn't developed yet. Obi sounded like a good rebounder who could fill in and give a rest to other players. Vrank is a 6' 11" guy who seems to have Marshall's mobility and supposedly he weighs 270. Too bad we can't get a few minutes each half from some of those. Next year we have no Amile, Brandon or Marshall. We do have Giles, Tatum and DeLaurier coming. If Giles gets hurt, who can we turn to? Should we be developing a big now and if so who? Jeter is obvious from where we are now but I also wonder about Vrank. Maybe recruiting isn't over and we can land a big, tough center prospect to fill us out as a team.

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 01:12 PM
Doesn't really seem that Jones had possession.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yVuaJTZmRs&feature=youtu.be

amazing how differently two people can see something. at the time, I thought it was an ok no call. Looking at the slow mo, I think he DID have possession.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 01:15 PM
amazing how differently two people can see something. at the time, I thought it was an ok no call. Looking at the slow mo, I think he DID have possession.

Watching it in real time, from the angle K would have had (in the stadium several rows up), it looked like he had possession, albeit not for a huge amount of time prior to getting hit.

But he WAS standing in his spot well before the Syracuse player crashed into him.

And it was way more contact on a play than the one Jones got called for on a defensive rebound, when he jumped straight up earlier in the 2nd half for his 3rd foul.

The officiating on the perimeter drives was fine. But the officiating underneath and on rebounds was inconsistent and maddening.

mo.st.dukie
01-19-2016, 01:20 PM
It was a foul, at any other point in the game that gets called as a foul. But it was close enough and fast enough for officials to be able to swallow the whistle and just blame a no-call on the fact that it was close and fast. That said, it's not the reason we lost and we shouldn't rely on the officials to always be able to make every correct call.

Lar77
01-19-2016, 01:21 PM
you may be right...I don't recall the play. Still having more fouls than rebounds, for a guy who is supposed to be out there to rebound is not ideal.

Sagegrouse is right. I don't know any college big (ever) that would have come up with that pass.

Looking at Obi, there is no solution overnight, but he should lose about 15 to 20 pounds. He is solidly built but looks like a guy carrying around too much weight (personal experience) balky knees or not.

If Obi/Jeter/Vrank can get a miracle transformation over the next two weeks, it will help only because it might allow a transformation of the team so we have 5 guys on the perimeter instead of 4. Ingram and Jones are not inside guys, but that's what they are required to do.

Someone commented earlier on Grayson's defense, which was excellent last night. His primary cover, Cooney (who has been there forever), didn't score when Grayson was on him.

Our rebounding was woeful last night but there was a lot of bad luck involved on that. Our shooting and ball movement were clearly thrown off by the Syracuse zone, which looks like it is playing the way it used to. It happens.

It's still mid-January. The trend is not good and may get worse given our coming matchups, but there is a lot of talent on this team. Plumlee, Allen, Thornton, Ingram, and Kennard are playing visibly better than in November. Matt is not playing as well, but some have cited injury. I expect the trend to start upward but also expect more heart wrenching as well.

swood1000
01-19-2016, 01:25 PM
amazing how differently two people can see something. at the time, I thought it was an ok no call. Looking at the slow mo, I think he DID have possession.
As I click through it it looks like Jones reached the ball a fraction of a second before Richardson, but then Richardson had his hands on the ball pulling it away, and at the time that Jones took his "shot" he did not have possession.

Philadukie
01-19-2016, 01:28 PM
Very proud of the way this team fights to the very end. There's no quit in these kids.



Have you considered counseling?:rolleyes:

Counseling so that it affects me more, you mean? My point is that most 20-somethings have less perspective and self-regulation than 30 and 40 somethings. Y'know, the whole pre-frontal cortex development thing. It's pretty common for a 20-something to overreact to their sports team losing, especially 3 games in a row.

wsb3
01-19-2016, 02:21 PM
Counseling so that it affects me more, you mean? My point is that most 20-somethings have less perspective and self-regulation than 30 and 40 somethings. Y'know, the whole pre-frontal cortex development thing. It's pretty common for a 20-something to overreact to their sports team losing, especially 3 games in a row.

As one nearing 60 (yikes that seems like such a big number) I wish it did not affect me the way it does. I keep telling myself. no right to complain...We won the NC last year. I was 34 before we won the first that I had so desperately wanted since watching as a kid Duke lose to UCLA. I use to say each time we made it to the final four & failed to bring that first one home..Just one.. Just one in my lifetime. Now there are 5. We have not missed the NCAA tourney since 95 & I think we all can agree that would never have happened if not for Coach's health issues.

I try to keep it in perspective. It's a 3 game losing streak. We paid a price for winning a NC & three freshman left early. Was it worth it if we have an off year if that turns out to be the case?

I tell myself all this & yet I did not sleep very much or very well last night.

Tommac
01-19-2016, 02:34 PM
As one nearing 60 (yikes that seems like such a big number) I wish it did not affect me the way it does. I keep telling myself. no right to complain...We won the NC last year. I was 34 before we won the first that I had so desperately wanted since watching as a kid Duke lose to UCLA. I use to say each time we made it to the final four & failed to bring that first one home..Just one.. Just one in my lifetime. Now there are 5. We have not missed the NCAA tourney since 95 & I think we all can agree that would never have happened if not for Coach's health issues.

I try to keep it in perspective. It's a 3 game losing streak. We paid a price for winning a NC & three freshman left early. Was it worth it if we have an off year if that turns out to be the case?

I tell myself all this & yet I did not sleep very much or very well last night.

I agree. I've been a Duke fan since the Vic Bubas years. I was 37 when Duke won the first NC in 1991. Now 25 years later, four more. So since 1991 Duke has averaged an NC every 5 years. I can live with that and an occasional down year here and there. Younger fans don't know what the early-mid 70's were like for a Duke fan in North Carolina. We've become spoiled to excellency.

bluedev_92
01-19-2016, 03:39 PM
I thought Obi's TO was really on Derryck -- a pass to the ankles of a big man??

Agreed. That was a bad pass. Derryck almost threw it away on the next possession as well (if I remember correctly)

DukieInKansas
01-19-2016, 03:51 PM
As one nearing 60 (yikes that seems like such a big number) I wish it did not affect me the way it does. I keep telling myself. no right to complain...We won the NC last year. I was 34 before we won the first that I had so desperately wanted since watching as a kid Duke lose to UCLA. I use to say each time we made it to the final four & failed to bring that first one home..Just one.. Just one in my lifetime. Now there are 5. We have not missed the NCAA tourney since 95 & I think we all can agree that would never have happened if not for Coach's health issues.

I try to keep it in perspective. It's a 3 game losing streak. We paid a price for winning a NC & three freshman left early. Was it worth it if we have an off year if that turns out to be the case?

I tell myself all this & yet I did not sleep very much or very well last night.

I've given up on the season, now. I don't think we could beat the Crittendon Home for Unwed Mothers. ;)




As usual, I'm disappointed for the team after a loss, embarrassed at how much I yelled at the TV(dvr'd the game), and ready to read any of the Hater's comments to articles. My Ozzie Hat is back on - we will win again. I never expect the team to lose. Let's go, Duke!

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 03:53 PM
This zinger is aimed at me. And funny. I thought I was more matter-of-fact critical than shocked-aghast critical. And tux has not persuaded me that K gets a pass here. But the zinger's a pearl, which I mean as a compliment.

Linky (http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/index.ssf/2016/01/jim_boeheim_says_coach_k_did_not_skip_handshake_li ne_to_look_for_refs.html)

According to Boeheim, Krzyzewski was upset about something at that moment, but not with the officials.

"He came down the handshake line, somebody told me from who was sitting there, that he was upset with some Duke students who were yelling at our players," Boeheim said. "He was looking at them. The referees were long gone at that time. I heard people on radio today talking about how he was looking at them, but that's not the case, from what I understand. He wouldn't do that. He doesn't like Duke students yelling at players. He's very tough about that. He's as classy as any coach. "

Boeheim added that he didn't see the incident, but was told Coach K's account from someone who witnessed it.

moonpie23
01-19-2016, 03:59 PM
can we still win the natty if we win AT state? I thought we were locked in somehow on that deal...

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 04:01 PM
can we still win the natty if we win AT state? I thought we were locked in somehow on that deal...

Winning at State is the only way to repeat as national champs (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19920216). Particularly if missing a key player temporarily for a broken foot.

Indoor66
01-19-2016, 04:13 PM
This was not *my* personal speculation. This was what I read from previous threads, from people who are "in the know." As close to fact that you and I are going to get.

IRRC, that came from Jim Sumner - a very reliable source (if my memory is correct.)

Kfanarmy
01-19-2016, 04:26 PM
I've given up on the season, now. I don't think we could beat the Crittendon Home for Unwed Mothers. ;) ....!

Difficult task for a private university to beat a National Program that produces like they do!

wsb3
01-19-2016, 04:58 PM
We've become spoiled to excellency.

That is a great quote.

TruBlu
01-19-2016, 05:07 PM
As has been stated in other threads, Obi apparently has been fighting balky knees.

I was at the game, and intentionally paid special attention to Obi during warm-ups before the game to see how he was moving. I realize that during warm-ups and layup drills, players don't put in full effort, but Obi never left his feet on shots or rebounds . . . just kinda elevated onto his tippy-toes. This makes me think that there may indeed be something going on with his knees.

Neals384
01-19-2016, 05:10 PM
This zinger is aimed at me. And funny. I thought I was more matter-of-fact critical than shocked-aghast critical. And tux has not persuaded me that K gets a pass here. But the zinger's a pearl, which I mean as a compliment.

May you find a pearl in your gumbo.

FerryFor50
01-19-2016, 05:13 PM
I was at the game, and intentionally paid special attention to Obi during warm-ups before the game to see how he was moving. I realize that during warm-ups and layup drills, players don't put in full effort, but Obi never left his feet on shots or rebounds . . . just kinda elevated onto his tippy-toes. This makes me think that there may indeed be something going on with his knees.

I actually saw him dunk in warm ups in the 2nd half. But who knows. Cone of silence!

TruBlu
01-19-2016, 05:19 PM
I actually saw him dunk in warm ups in the 2nd half. But who knows. Cone of silence!

Have to admit that I missed the second half warm ups due to my having a very bad habit that hasn't been allowed in Cameron for about 30 years.

ncexnyc
01-19-2016, 06:38 PM
Not sure how you can say there is no talent in this team. Marshals points were all gifts? Then there is the gloating. Are you sure you are a Duke fan?
Well we really don't know what shade of blue he is bleeding.:)

MartyClark
01-19-2016, 08:12 PM
As one nearing 60 (yikes that seems like such a big number) I wish it did not affect me the way it does. I keep telling myself. no right to complain...We won the NC last year. I was 34 before we won the first that I had so desperately wanted since watching as a kid Duke lose to UCLA. I use to say each time we made it to the final four & failed to bring that first one home..Just one.. Just one in my lifetime. Now there are 5. We have not missed the NCAA tourney since 95 & I think we all can agree that would never have happened if not for Coach's health issues.

I try to keep it in perspective. It's a 3 game losing streak. We paid a price for winning a NC & three freshman left early. Was it worth it if we have an off year if that turns out to be the case?

I tell myself all this & yet I did not sleep very much or very well last night.

I am slightly older than you, didn't go to Duke, have never been to a game at Cameron, but share your feelings. I have a career, friends, and family but I kind of live and die with Duke basketball.

Last year's success was spectacular and, to me, unexpected. I think K and everyone knew that Jah would leave after one year. I'm not sure they knew Winslow and Tyus would be one and dones. I saw both guys play in Colorado Springs with the U19 team and remember thinking that both guys would be really good but play for 3 or 4 years at Duke. That shows what I know.

I know it's unproductive but I can't help but wonder how good this team would be with Winslow.

My glass is half full. I think Duke can be a dangerous dark horse by the end of the year.

Newton_14
01-19-2016, 08:34 PM
We may be lacking a few things on this team, mostly experience, but we sure don't lack talent.
By playing such a limited number of guys, we are literally getting worn out. When people mention fatigue issues, I'm usually one of the first to point out that these guys are young athletes; they are conditioned for it. However, they are also playing against young athletes, also conditioned for a succession of games. While we may not be "exhausted", we are definitely at a disadvantage at the end of these games, and that's when we need to be at our best. This means that our drives will be less successful, our shooting (which becomes a threefest when we are down) suffers, and we will foul more and pull down less rebounds. Our game plan better be get up by 30 early, or use someone on the bench more.
Without minutes from Jeter and Obi in some capacity...even just to rest the folks that need it, we're in for more of the same results. There isn't much difference in a guy that can't play defense or score because he's tired and one that can't play defense or score because he lacks the ability. Both results are the same. However, if you can play the guy with less ability more often, then you can actually use the guy with more talent when he's most needed because he isn't worn out.
We won't last 3 (or 4 or 5) days in the ACC tourney with our rotation. Our lack of talent won't be the reason we are watching the semifinals from home, it will be because we don't have the stamina to make it that far.

I hear what you are saying Chris, but it is more complex than that. I think. Hear me out. Amile was the one guy we could least afford to lose. He was the only piece of the puzzle that allowed us to play two bigs at the same time, allowing more rest for the quintet of Ingram, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Thornton. Even if Jeter and/or OBI were playing well enough to help, we really can only sub them in for Plumlee, and right now Plumlee is thriving playing 38mpg. So taking him out is not only not helpful, it's likely hurtful. There is no chance at all of playing Plumlee and Obi together and have it be effective. We played Plumlee and Jeter together for a stretch in the Wake game due to the foul trouble, and it did not kill us, but even still it is not really a great fit.

With that, the kids that need the rest the most, which in order in my opinion are: Thornton, Ingram, Kennard, Allen, Jones. So in my mind, without the ability to play two bigs, Jeter and/or Obi playing more only allows Plumlee more rest, and would still force K to play 4 of the 5 guards at all time, using one sub to try to give rest to the other 4. Just a terrible predicament to be in.

Again, just how I see things as they stand right now. With Amile back, we can play two bigs far more often, and go to one big when we choose to vs when we have to.

Furniture
01-19-2016, 08:54 PM
1) Crazies were good last night- even chanted "Let Your Team Down" to a 'Cuse player when he got his 3rd foul early, really thought that was funny!!

As the crazies gave that chant to Gbinije the camera panned in close and he had a real look of 'quiet' determination on his face. A shudder went down my spine at that moment and he definitely came back to bite us.
Not a big deal at all but I wondered what the correct protocol should be about a returning ex Dukie? Should they make that chant or just leave it?

Furniture
01-19-2016, 09:19 PM
[/FONT][/COLOR][/I]"He came down the handshake line, somebody told me from who was sitting there, that he was upset with some Duke students who were yelling at our players," Boeheim said. "He was looking at them. The referees were long gone at that time. I heard people on radio today talking about how he was looking at them, but that's not the case, from what I understand. He wouldn't do that. He doesn't like Duke students yelling at players. He's very tough about that. He's as classy as any coach. "

Boeheim added that he didn't see the incident, but was told Coach K's account from someone who witnessed it.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

He definitely did not shake several the Syracuse players hands. He started then got distracted and then he got one or two of the last players but he was still staring intently in the direction of the basket. Given his attitude in the press conference you could link the two together as the attitude of a bad loser. But thinking about it it's obvious that something else must have been going on. Students yelling at players could well be it.

JPtheGame
01-19-2016, 09:24 PM
As the crazies gave that chant to Gbinije the camera panned in close and he had a real look of 'quiet' determination on his face. A shudder went down my spine at that moment and he definitely came back to bite us.
Not a big deal at all but I wondered what the correct protocol should be about a returning ex Dukie? Should they make that chant or just leave it?

I thought they should have chanted "you let BOTH teams down".
He hit 14 of his previous 59 3pa. I doubt that chant had any bearing on the 60th attempt going down.
No mercy. Sweep the leg.

gumbomoop
01-19-2016, 09:30 PM
Linky (http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/index.ssf/2016/01/jim_boeheim_says_coach_k_did_not_skip_handshake_li ne_to_look_for_refs.html)

According to Boeheim, Krzyzewski was upset about something at that moment, but not with the officials.

"He came down the handshake line, somebody told me from who was sitting there, that he was upset with some Duke students who were yelling at our players," Boeheim said. "He was looking at them. The referees were long gone at that time. I heard people on radio today talking about how he was looking at them, but that's not the case, from what I understand. He wouldn't do that. He doesn't like Duke students yelling at players. He's very tough about that. He's as classy as any coach. "

Boeheim added that he didn't see the incident, but was told Coach K's account from someone who witnessed it.

In my post on this controversy, I criticized K on 2 grounds. On the sportsmanship issue, I noted that the camera didn't show the entire handshake line, but what it did show disappointed me. Like several other posters, I did assume K was looking for the refs. I was wrong about what was happening, and wouldn't now insist that K should have finished the line anyway, no matter what had angered him. I was wrong.

Second issue: Thinking the 2 non-calls debatable, I think the tenor of K's comments in the presser overwrought. There's a disagreement about the calls. I don't know whether either call was amazingly bad. I always prefer to hear interesting analysis of what happened, and rarely do I find implicit criticism of the refs very useful. True enough, there are times that a clearly (amazingly) awful call may be said to have determined the outcome. I don't think that happened last night; a few other posters perhaps disagree.

I really would like to have heard K's extended reflections on what worked and what didn't, why his players had difficulty in this area or that, etc.

Troublemaker
01-19-2016, 10:00 PM
In my post on this controversy, I criticized K on 2 grounds. On the sportsmanship issue, I noted that the camera didn't show the entire handshake line, but what it did show disappointed me. Like several other posters, I did assume K was looking for the refs. I was wrong about what was happening, and wouldn't now insist that K should have finished the line anyway, no matter what had angered him. I was wrong.

Second issue: Thinking the 2 non-calls debatable, I think the tenor of K's comments in the presser overwrought. There's a disagreement about the calls. I don't know whether either call was amazingly bad. I always prefer to hear interesting analysis of what happened, and rarely do I find implicit criticism of the refs very useful. True enough, there are times that a clearly (amazingly) awful call may be said to have determined the outcome. I don't think that happened last night; a few other posters perhaps disagree.

I really would like to have heard K's extended reflections on what worked and what didn't, why his players had difficulty in this area or that, etc.

Yeah I agree with you, gumbo, and have no issues with your post. I was updating you on new information that had just come to my attention.

Newton_14
01-19-2016, 11:32 PM
I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong, but in last night's game, Syracuse only played 7 guys and the 7th guy only played 7 minutes. Our 7th guy played 2 minutes. It's hard for me to imagine that five additional minutes of rest, spread out among five guys, would make that much of a difference, fatigue-wise. In other words, Syracuse should have been just as fatigued as we were (and maybe they were, I have no idea), so fatigue, at least as a relative matter, shouldn't have been an issue, at least last night.

Syracuse has a 4th yr Sr and 5th yr Sr in their backcourt, and upperclassmen can play thru fatigue much better than freshman and Soph. 3 of our heavy minute guys are true freshman, and a 4th is a true Soph. It matters. Also, Syracuse plays zone for 40 minutes which arguably allows them to expend less energy on defense than our guys.

I agree fully with CB&B that fatigue was very much a factor for a very thin, very young team playing their 3rd game in 5 days. I was there. It was obvious to me from the opening tip. They still managed to play very hard, but I'm with CB&B again that Syracuse does not sniff an 8 point lead otherwise. Were they better rested, the 3 ball percentage is higher, we grab a few more rebounds, get to loose balls a step faster, and close on shooters a step faster. I do think that factored in last night. How much is impossible to measure.

One last point on the foul K was upset on (and it was on the no call on Matt right after the miss by Grayson). FerryFor50 and I were in Section 5, toward the corner, just down from the Duke bench, so we were facing Matt. Matt very clearly grabbed and possessed the tip out with both hands and was already starting his motion to bring the ball up when he got clobbered. They showed the replay on the scoreboard from the same angle we had, and it again clearly showed it. It was not a loose ball. Matt had possession. The body blow and arm rake by the Syracuse played dislodged the ball from Matt's hand. He had the scar on his wrist to prove it in the form of a nasty scratch. It certainly did not lose the game for us, but it would have been nice to have one more chance in the halfcourt to get a shot off vs a desperation heave from 70 feet (where he got hit again, but I have only ever seen a foul call on a desperation heave once in my life. It came in the NCAA Tourney with Butler against Pitt. Butler rebounded a missed free throw down by three with less than 2 seconds. The Butler big tries to throw it 90 ft toward his basket, got hit on the arm and darned if they didn't call it a foul on a 3 point attempt. He made all 3 free throws and they won in OT)

westwall
01-20-2016, 12:41 AM
I hear what you are saying Chris, but it is more complex than that. I think. Hear me out. Amile was the one guy we could least afford to lose. He was the only piece of the puzzle that allowed us to play two bigs at the same time, allowing more rest for the quintet of Ingram, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Thornton. Even if Jeter and/or OBI were playing well enough to help, we really can only sub them in for Plumlee, and right now Plumlee is thriving playing 38mpg. So taking him out is not only not helpful, it's likely hurtful. There is no chance at all of playing Plumlee and Obi together and have it be effective. We played Plumlee and Jeter together for a stretch in the Wake game due to the foul trouble, and it did not kill us, but even still it is not really a great fit.

With that, the kids that need the rest the most, which in order in my opinion are: Thornton, Ingram, Kennard, Allen, Jones. So in my mind, without the ability to play two bigs, Jeter and/or Obi playing more only allows Plumlee more rest, and would still force K to play 4 of the 5 guards at all time, using one sub to try to give rest to the other 4. Just a terrible predicament to be in.

Again, just how I see things as they stand right now. With Amile back, we can play two bigs far more often, and go to one big when we choose to vs when we have to.


Very interesting perspective Mark.

wsb3
01-20-2016, 07:25 AM
I am slightly older than you, didn't go to Duke, have never been to a game at Cameron, but share your feelings. I have a career, friends, and family but I kind of live and die with Duke basketball.

Last year's success was spectacular and, to me, unexpected. I think K and everyone knew that Jah would leave after one year. I'm not sure they knew Winslow and Tyus would be one and dones. I saw both guys play in Colorado Springs with the U19 team and remember thinking that both guys would be really good but play for 3 or 4 years at Duke. That shows what I know.

I know it's unproductive but I can't help but wonder how good this team would be with Winslow.

My glass is half full. I think Duke can be a dangerous dark horse by the end of the year.

I agree. We knew from day one Jah was gone. Maybe Winslow but I don't think Ty was planning to be one & done. Winslow would be great to have but with our troubles at point guard this year what a difference Ty would have made. No fumbling around on last possessions.. The ball in his hands. We might well be 6-0 but this is the nature of today's game. Get to the NBA as quickly as possible. I know many say you have to go if you are 1st round, but something Coach K said long ago stuck with me. It is the second contract where you can really make the $$$. Sometimes these players leave before they are ready & I think they get knocked back so far that for many it is that first contract & little else.

To be that dark horse I agree but only if we stay healthy & Amile is back soon. It would also help if Thornton could take over the point guard..play solid..not spectacular..Matt has been forced into a position he is not equipped to play.

jv001
01-20-2016, 08:45 AM
I hear what you are saying Chris, but it is more complex than that. I think. Hear me out. Amile was the one guy we could least afford to lose. He was the only piece of the puzzle that allowed us to play two bigs at the same time, allowing more rest for the quintet of Ingram, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Thornton. Even if Jeter and/or OBI were playing well enough to help, we really can only sub them in for Plumlee, and right now Plumlee is thriving playing 38mpg. So taking him out is not only not helpful, it's likely hurtful. There is no chance at all of playing Plumlee and Obi together and have it be effective. We played Plumlee and Jeter together for a stretch in the Wake game due to the foul trouble, and it did not kill us, but even still it is not really a great fit.

With that, the kids that need the rest the most, which in order in my opinion are: Thornton, Ingram, Kennard, Allen, Jones. So in my mind, without the ability to play two bigs, Jeter and/or Obi playing more only allows Plumlee more rest, and would still force K to play 4 of the 5 guards at all time, using one sub to try to give rest to the other 4. Just a terrible predicament to be in.

Again, just how I see things as they stand right now. With Amile back, we can play two bigs far more often, and go to one big when we choose to vs when we have to.

As usual good points Newt and you were there, so you were a lot closer to the action than I was from my couch. I think Neal's +/- thread shows that Obi and Thornton were both -6 and the starting lineup was a +4. Some Duke fans are underestimating MPIII's importance to the team with Amile out. Marshall seems to be less tired at the end of games than our perimeter players. I think that has to do with him being a senior and his off season training. He's done an amazing job of staying out of foul trouble this season. I can only think of one game where his fouls kept him on the bench for a long period of time. I know we would all like to see Obi and Jeter step up and get more minutes, however they cannot play the 4 position. That's where we need depth. That would free up Ingram to play the 4 and the 3 positions. We really need Amile back close to 100%. We're probably a top 10 team with him. Get well quick Amile and GoDuke!

CameronBornAndBred
01-20-2016, 08:58 AM
He's done an amazing job of staying out of foul trouble this season.
Yes he has.
Dick Vitale kept saying how Syracuse just needed to get Marshall in foul trouble, which annoyed me to no end. I kept thinking, "Have you even watched Marshall this year? The one guy that is least likely to get into foul trouble is MP3!"
Marshall of course walked off the court with only one foul for the whole game; it's another way he has become so valuable to this team.
(Vitale annoyed me lots of other ways, too, but that was a biggie.)

jv001
01-20-2016, 09:05 AM
Yes he has.
Dick Vitale kept saying how Syracuse just needed to get Marshall in foul trouble, which annoyed me to no end. I kept thinking, "Have you even watched Marshall this year? The one guy that is least likely to get into foul trouble is MP3!"
Marshall of course walked off the court with only one foul for the whole game; it's another way he has become so valuable to this team.
(Vitale annoyed me lots of other ways, too, but that was a biggie.)

I've gotten used to watching the games with Vitale muted. There's not much the announcers can tell me that I don't see for myself. However if there's a stoppage in play, I unmute Mr. Vitale and see what's going on. GoDuke!

dyedwab
01-20-2016, 10:11 AM
1) Marshall Plumlee. I think many of us thought that, based on passed history, a big man with Marshall's experience would be a bigger contributor than he has been in the past. I don't think anyone predicted the level at which he is playing. He's been so much better than I think we could have hoped. And without him, we lose by double digits.

2) Fatigue, youth, and learning to win. I think those who attribute some of our struggles to fatigue are correct. I also think that our youth contributes to the fact that end of half/end of game situations have not gone as well as we would have liked this year. But also, winning late is a learned skill. And we haven't learned it well yet, because we are young. We aren't yet sure who is supposed to take the shot, esp. when everything breaks down, and our players don't yet have the confidence that things are going to go well. It's a process. I'm reminded of a non-Duke example of how this works. When Wake beat UNC for the ACC title in Randolph Childress' senior year, the game went to overtime and in offensive possession, Ricky Peral made an indecisive play, turn it over and UNC got a fast break, and scored/was fouled. The camera focused on Childress talking to Peral after the play and you could clearly see him mouthing the words, "Give me the ball every d**** time." This team doesn't have that...yet.

3) This team has a low margin for errors, so bad decisions (Derryck's pass at Obi's feet, Grayson's travel after we turned them over because he didn't decide on what he wanted to do with the ball) are magnified. Decision making is harder when tired, so fewer unforced errors early would be awesome

4) Heart, intensity and focus is not this team's problem. It's a scrappy bunch that plays hard till the end. Better decision-making and a few lucky bounces going our way will have lots of salutory effects.

Jeffrey
01-20-2016, 11:13 AM
Amile was the one guy we could least afford to lose. He was the only piece of the puzzle that allowed us to play two bigs at the same time, allowing more rest for the quintet of Ingram, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Thornton. Even if Jeter and/or OBI were playing well enough to help, we really can only sub them in for Plumlee, and right now Plumlee is thriving playing 38mpg. So taking him out is not only not helpful, it's likely hurtful. There is no chance at all of playing Plumlee and Obi together and have it be effective. We played Plumlee and Jeter together for a stretch in the Wake game due to the foul trouble, and it did not kill us, but even still it is not really a great fit.

With that, the kids that need the rest the most, which in order in my opinion are: Thornton, Ingram, Kennard, Allen, Jones. So in my mind, without the ability to play two bigs, Jeter and/or Obi playing more only allows Plumlee more rest, and would still force K to play 4 of the 5 guards at all time, using one sub to try to give rest to the other 4. Just a terrible predicament to be in.

Again, just how I see things as they stand right now. With Amile back, we can play two bigs far more often, and go to one big when we choose to vs when we have to.

I don't think it's mostly an Amile deficiency issue, it's mostly a player deficiency issue. For example, when Amile was injured, most would not have considered MP3 anywhere near as big of a loss as Amile. Yet, with Obi and Jeter unable to currently play at ACC level, what would have happened? I suspect Jefferson would have moved to the 5, Ingram to the 4, and you'd have the same quintet issue you addressed. Stated differently, the same fatigue issue CB&B addressed.

I also believe the loss of Ingram would have been as devastating as the Jefferson loss. Ingram is our most versatile player and, IMO, our best.

Maybe, we're saying, close to the same thing, Duke could not afford to lose someone currently capable of playing the 4 or 5 (MP3, Jefferson, or Ingram) at ACC level. Why? Maybe, because we misevaluated Obi and needed him to be ready to play at ACC level. I'm not saying I expected our staff to go get another transfer, like every other K transfer, who ended up on an All-ACC team. I'm saying I expected our staff to get another transfer capable of immediately playing in the ACC, if we lost a starter.