MBB: Duke 91, Notre Dame 95 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[6th Man]

We desperately need Amile Jefferson back to rebound.

[gurufrisbee]

We need Amile. Third game now we lost without him that we would have won easily with him.

Or we need to both play offense and defense for the whole game.

And while it hasn't been the only reason we've lost - with better officiating we do win these games, too. That's just the truth.

[Devilsforlife]

We need Amile back ASAP... Defense left a lot to be desired out there.

[DukeWarhead]

Defense? Hello? Come back soon.

[gocanes0506]

You are going to lose games where teams literally throw things up and they go in.

C'mon man! Plumee, the biggest rebounding situation and you take a play off. Atrocious.

[vrob90]

Time to adjust expectations. I thought they were a better team. 95 points from an opponent like ND. Painful to watch.

[azzefkram]

A disappointing loss. Far too many errors. Far too easy to drive to the rim.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Notre Dame took it to us. They are 4-1 against us in the last 3 years. Very disappointing loss. Had some tough calls go against us but no excuses. We need to get tougher and win games at home. Crowd seemed less than stellar but still.

[porkpa]

We need Amile back, sooner rather than later. Unfortunately with that boot still on, it looks like it will be later rather than sooner. What has happened to Matt Jones' game in the last couple of weeks?

[Bob Green]

The defense couldn't get stops. It is not often we shoot 50 percent on 3 PT FGs, score 91 points and lose. But we did today. Congrats to Notre Dame.

[jv001]

You are going to lose games where teams literally throw things up and they go in.

C'mon man! Plumee, the biggest rebounding situation and you take a play off. Atrocious.

That was a bad play, but that did not lose the game. Two games now that Jones has taken a pressure shot and threw up bricks. Well one brick and one airball. His defense has been bad but that could be the ankle. He's one of the slowest Duke players and one of the most un-athletic. So, he needs to play smart. He was the last person that should have taken that pressure shot. GoDuke!

[DukeWarhead]

Time to adjust expectations. I thought they were a better team. 95 points from an opponent like ND. Painful to watch.

Felt so after Clemson. Utah, Clemson, ND. These aren't very good teams. Solidly back to earth. Maybe we can get it going, let's hope.

[Kfanarmy]

Not sure I understand why they get their hands on the rebound first so often without coming away with the ball. Very frustrating. Tough to watch that missed free throw end up in the hands of ND, but it missed so short it went straight down and MP3 didn't move.

[CoSprings]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

[dukelion]

Time to adjust expectations. I thought they were a better team. 95 points from an opponent like ND. Painful to watch.

ND has the #2 offense according to KenPom.....maybe #1 after this.

Biggest issue is rebounding both offensive and defensive. That last offensive rebound that Marshall gave up was a microcosm of the game and our issues without Amile.

Thing is....we're not terrible. Far from it actually.

ND played a incredible game, NBA 3's, shot clock hail mary's, Colson making 3's for the first time all season. Utah, Clemson and now ND all played very good basketball against us and each of those games were still well within our reach.

Young guys still learning what NCAA D1 basketball is all about, especially when you got Duke on the front of your jersey.

Still think that when Amile gets back we're top 5 in the country.

[Duke76]

The defense couldn't get stops. It is not often we shoot 50 percent on 3 PT FGs, score 91 points and lose. But we did today. Congrats to Notre Dame.

not sure why we went away from Luke it seemed at the end...thought K could have saved a time out when we were up 1 with 47 seconds to go...N Dame was out of timeouts...gave them a chance to set up an offensive play and they scored of course....then we were out of time outs on a key possession I think at the 12 seconds..and Matt takes that shot....should have been one of our top 3

[vrob90]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

You've convinced me.

[MCFinARL]

Not sure I understand why they get their hands on the rebound first so often without coming away with the ball. Very frustrating. Tough to watch that missed free throw end up in the hands of ND, but it missed so short it went straight down and MP3 didn't move.

Agree with this. Marshall especially can't seem to control the ball at all on rebounds but he isn't the only one.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Maybe we can try going to someone besides Matt Jones at the end of our next tight game?

[Duke76]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

I still think thats a "nuts" comment, but I guess we will see

[Duke79UNLV77]

Meanwhile, Tyus Jones never gets to play in the NBA. Alas.

[Kjeffrey]

Not that different than the loss to Clemson - defense was pretty weak, missed free throws and struggled to rebound. Not going to win too many close games like that.
Btw, just once I would like to see players like Bonzi Colson and Devin Thomas get T'd up for running mouths. Taunting the opponent's bench - real classy player you got there Mike Brey.

[vrob90]

No silver lining in this one. Just a really bad loss.

[jv001]

You've convinced me.

He or she has me thinking. Coach K has pulled some things out of the hat in the past. He'll need to do it again. Ingram must stay on the floor for his defense more than his offense. We need for him to stay out of foul trouble and play tough defense. It seems the guards play matador defense to stay out of foul trouble. That won't get it done. GoDuke1

[FireOgilvie]

Really tough loss. Is this the game that finally drops us out of the rankings? What is our best win this year; IU? We need Amile.

[AvlDukie]

Another tough loss..

Anyone else remember Colson going nuts against us also last year in South Bend?

Need more than 11 FG attempts from Grayson - second straight game where he disappeared for long stretch of second half.

And please - no more game-on-the-line shots for Matt. He is really struggling right now.

Coach will figure it out, though - if that I am certain.

[dukelifer]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

I am not disappointed. This is a young, thin squad and lacking senior leadership on the court. I am not sure what you expect. Duke fought hard and was up 1 with under 2 minutes to go against a team that was very hot. That is basketball. The margins are razor thin this year. Duke may not make the tourney- but I am not disappointed in this team in any way. That was an entertaining game and well played on one end of the court- not so much on the other- but Notre Dame his some incredible shots.

[Kfanarmy]

Maybe we can try going to someone besides Matt Jones at the end of our next tight game?

Two games in a row he's missed badly at end of game...they let him shoot on purpose today. That miss and Marshall giving up the rebound made it a tough end to the game.

[Kjeffrey]

Maybe we can try going to someone besides Matt Jones at the end of our next tight game?

He doesn't seem to be playing with very much confidence. With Amile out Duke really needs Matt's leadership and strong play. I can't help but wonder if he is ankle/foot injury is worse than we know.

[dukelifer]

Maybe we can try going to someone besides Matt Jones at the end of our next tight game?

Not crazy about the last shot but it was open- but he bricked two critical throws. Matt is the most experienced guy out there. Needs to be better at the end of games.

[jv001]

Two games in a row he's missed badly at end of game...they let him shoot on purpose today. That miss and Marshall giving up the rebound made it a tough end to the game.

One airball and one brick. Matt's suppose to be smarter than that. He's one of the captains and a junior. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Maybe we can try going to someone besides Matt Jones at the end of our next tight game?

matt played hero ball there and it cost us. we'd scored going inside quite consistently down the stretch... not sure why jacking a three of the dribble is the play there. i expect more from a vet.

[dukelifer]

Meanwhile, Tyus Jones never gets to play in the NBA. Alas.

Can't give up guaranteed first round money. The NBA makes it hard not to go.

[Saratoga2]

First of all, ND was not a horrible team as depicted coming in. They are in fact a very good offensive team. In addition, they were very active rebounding while Marshall seemed quite passive until the end of the game. Colson was a match up problem for us as we had no one with the strength and quickness to keep him from scoring. When Brandon did it was fouls on him. Their PG play was also outstanding and we couldn't prevent his penetration and then scoring. We got bumped and handled a lot toward the end but few calls in our favor so the physical play by ND was rewarded.

The good news is that we have three effective scorers who can keep us in games. Clearly we will need Amile to be effective on defensive and rebounding and his points inside would also open up additional plays for our scorers. It would also open Brandon up to play more of the small forward. We would also be less tired and Marshall could play with more aggressiveness without as much concern about possible foul issues.

Would love to find one more big who could give useful minutes. Help!

[kAzE]

Contrary to what some posters have voiced, I thought we played pretty well on both sides of the floor. They just didn't miss. Tough contested shots, extremely lucky bounces, Colson probably doubling his career 3 pointer total. Jackson hit at least 5 shots that were a 9 or 10 difficulty on a scale of 1 to 10. Very fluky.

The interior defense was basically Marshall or bust, but it wasn't because we weren't playing well. Ingram playing with 4 fouls meant that he was forced to play much less aggressively than he would normally, and if they got past Marshall, there was no one left to contest. We could not afford to foul, and I thought we did the best we could given the tough situation. Brandon cannot be in foul trouble, or this defense will just have a tough time guarding the drive. We need a healthy Amile as soon as humanly possible.

Kedsy, if you're reading this. I stand by my belief that Luke is the best shooter on the team, not Matt. I don't need to look at the numbers . . . those only tell me who has been the best shooter up to now. My eyes tell me Luke is the current best shooter. I agree with Coach K . . . it should have been Luke or Grayson taking the last shot in the Clemson game, and it should have been one of those guys in this game. Starting the year out, Luke had to adjust to playing with this team and finding his role, but now he's starting to get comfortable. I think his move into the starting lineup is permanent going forward, and he's probably going to be trusted with more and more minutes given the way he's played. He was the best player on the floor in white today. It's a shame his big day resulted in a loss. I thought he earned the chance to try and make a play on that last possession down 2. We didn't need a 3 . . .

[Rickshaw]

givem the 2 gaurd the d*nm 3

[Doria]

Anyone else remember Colson going nuts against us also last year in South Bend?

Need more than 11 FG attempts from Grayson - second straight game where he disappeared for long stretch of second half.

And please - no more game-on-the-line shots for Matt. He is really struggling right now.

Well, I didn't remember him going nuts on us in South Bend, but I certainly remembered his performance against us in the ACCT. Not terribly happy to be proven right by Vasturia, either.

Also agree with your other points. Grayson shouldn't force stuff, but we can't afford him to just disappear for the first fifteen minutes of the 2H. We won't beat too many decent teams with scoring so unbalanced.

Defense, rebounding, free throw shooting... Same stuff as last game (though we generally took better care of the ball, with the exception of a couple mental lapses in the 2H).

Hopefully Syracuse got all their scoring out of their system today; maybe we'll be able to outscore them.

[dukelifer]

Contrary to what some posters have voiced, I thought we played pretty well on both sides of the floor. They just didn't miss. Tough contested shots, extremely lucky bounces, Colson probably doubling his career 3 pointer total. Jackson hit at least 5 shots that were a 9 or 10 difficulty on a scale of 1 to 10. Very fluky.

The interior defense was basically Marshall or bust, but it wasn't because we were playing well. Ingram playing with 4 fouls meant that he was forced to play much less aggressively than he would normally, and if they got past Marshall, there was no one left to contest. We could not afford to foul, and I thought we did the best we could given the tough situation. Brandon cannot be in foul trouble, or this defense will just have a tough time guarding the drive. We need a healthy Amile as soon as humanly possible.

Kedsy, if you're reading this. I stand by my belief that Luke is the best shooter on the team, not Matt. I don't need to look at the numbers . . . those only tell me who has been the best shooter up to now. My eyes tell me Luke is the current best shooter. I agree with Coach K . . . it should have been Luke or Grayson taking the last shot in the Clemson game, and it should have been one of those guys in this game. Starting the year out, Luke had to adjust to playing with this team and finding his role, but now he's starting to get comfortable. I think his move into the starting lineup is permanent going forward, and he's probably going to be trusted with more and more minutes given the way he's played. He was the best player on the floor in white today. It's a shame his big day had to result in a loss.

Luke plays very well under pressure and can score from multiple spots on the floor. Grayson may be the best shooter from deep when it matters. Matt has hit some big shots in his past but missing those free throws was big. Can't miss two like that.

[jv001]

Well, I didn't remember him going nuts on us in South Bend, but I certainly remembered his performance against us in the ACCT. Not terribly happy to be proven right by Vasturia, either.

Also agree with your other points. Grayson shouldn't force stuff, but we can't afford him to just disappear for the first fifteen minutes of the 2H. We won't beat too many decent teams with scoring so unbalanced.
Defense, rebounding, free throw shooting... Same stuff as last game (though we generally took better care of the ball, with the exception of a couple mental lapses in the 2H).

Hopefully Syracuse got all their scoring out of their system today; maybe we'll be able to outscore them.

Good points. We began the 2nd half by going strictly to Brandon and he was cold. Then he get's into foul trouble. ND sees we're in trouble and get's even more confidence. Luke played terrific and Grayson almost pulled it out at the end, but a poor decision by Matt in forcing up that 3 pointer. I agree we'll need to score around 85-90 points to win most games. Then against the top tier teams we'll need to score 100+ points. We really miss Amile. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

Luke plays very well under pressure and can score from multiple spots on the floor. Grayson may be the best shooter from deep when it matters. Matt has hit some big shots in his past but missing those free throws was big. Can't miss two like that.

Grayson is probably the best catch and shoot guy, but Luke has the ability to do it all. Free throw shooting, mid range pull ups, floaters, off-hand turn-around hook shots, 25 footers off a jab step from the triple threat position. These were all shots that he hit in THIS game. He has the quickest release, and he can do it all off the dribble. He's becoming the best all-around offensive player on the team.

[dukelifer]

Grayson is probably the best catch and shoot guy, but Luke has the ability to do it all. Free throw shooting, mid range pull ups, floaters, off-hand turn-around hook shots, 25 footers off a jab step from the triple threat position. These were all shots that he hit in THIS game. He has the quickest release, and he can do it all off the dribble. He's becoming the best all-around offensive player on the team.

I was singing his praises from the beginning. Just took half a season to get going. This team needs Amile. With him- they are top 10. Without him- it is dicey.

[kAzE]

8 losses would be a fantastic turn around for this team. Assuming we don't win the National Championship, that means we go the rest of the regular season with 2-3 losses? That would incredible, and unfortunately, we're probably looking at double digit losses almost certainly at this point.

I thought Marshall played fine. He's never had the surest hands, but the way he was able to challenge almost every shot while staying out of foul trouble has to be a net positive. He's our ONLY big man, and with Ingram in foul trouble, he was the last line of defense on every drive. Get this: MARSHALL PLUMLEE PLAYED 39 MINUTES. I'm proud of his effort today. They just hit a ton of really tough shots over him.

[bleedingblue88]

8 losses would be a fantastic turn around for this team. Assuming we don't win the National Championship, that means we go the rest of the regular season with 2-3 losses? That would incredible, and unfortunately, we're probably looking at double digit losses almost certainly at this point.

Sorry I meant regular season losses, but that certainly would mean 9 or 10 losses by end of March Madness.

[heyman25]

I wonder if Obi and Jeter will ever figure out this season what we need from them. Until Amile comes back every game will be a grind.Jefferson still has a walking boot. Just a guess but it may be last Duke UNC game or ACC tourney before he returns.

Kennard has been ace.Brandon just needs to not foul when playing defense. Thornton needs to practice shooting and spend extra time in the gym. I am not down on this team, but the guys not playing need to step up so Coach K will trust them.

[NYBri]

Most important question is:

When do we get Amile back?

[uh_no]

I wonder if Obi and Jeter will ever figure out this season what we need from them. Until Amile comes back every game will be a grind.Jefferson still has a walking boot. Just a guess but it may be last Duke UNC game or ACC tourney before he returns.

uhhhhhh...wasn't okafor in a walking boot almost all of last year when not playing? unless you know anything the rest of us don't, it's not worth it to make wild guesses. it could be monday, it could be done for the year.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

You must be so proud?

This is what all our ACC games are going to look like until we get Amile back. No "gimmies" and no room for mistakes. Best we can hope for are coin flips.

Come on back, Amile! Seems you are the glue that holds this rickety ship together.

[devildeac]

Not that different than the loss to Clemson - defense was pretty weak, missed free throws and struggled to rebound. Not going to win too many close games like that.
Btw, just once I would like to see players like Bonzi Colson and Devin Thomas get T'd up for running mouths. Taunting the opponent's bench - real classy player you got there Mike Brey.

Neither of them are named Ewing.

[devildeac]

Well, we scored 91 points vs Vermont and won that one :rolleyes:...

Or maybe :mad: .

[uh_no]

Well, we scored 91 points vs Vermont and won that one :rolleyes:...

Or maybe :mad: .

there's a blank spot for that season where it should reside in my memory. i remember nothing.

[rsvman]

Bonzi's time clock beating fluke 3, the last second 3 after the uncalled travelling, Jackson's brick shot that somehow bounced in, Jackson's missed free throw bouncing almost straight down of the rim.....without these magical events we win the game despite the missed free throws, lack of rebounding, and porous interior defense.
as soon as we got that one point lead everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong.
just a sad, sad day.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

......and where were the Crazies? :mad:
Love, Ima

[ChillinDuke]

We need Amile.

- Chillin

[fuse]

Some pretty harsh commentary from "fans".

Ok to be disappointed with the loss, team trajectory, etc.

Until this team figures out how to play defense, every game is going to be a challenge.

I'm not calling another National Championship or Final Four.
I do believe a lot of the community were pretty down on last year's team and it took 4 freshmen until late February to figure it out.

May not happen for this team, I'll enjoy the roller coaster as this team runs its own race.

[Troublemaker]

Coach might've found something down the stretch by putting Grayson on the PG. Coming into the season, I had always imagined that Matt would be on the wing shutting people down and if Derryck wasn't quite ready to be a starting PG, I thought it would be Grayson with his athleticism that would be out there guarding the point. I think Coach should try that combination again going forward. Of course, in our next game, we have Gbinije who is a big physical PG that Matt should handle. But, after that, for the little quick guys like Demetrius Jackson, I think it's better to use Grayson and of course Derryck when he's in.

In any case, definitely a disappointing loss. We just needed to defensive rebound much better, which Duke is capable of against this particular opponent. Because Marshall's wingspan is only 6'8", some balls that should be his when they hit his hands ended up getting tipped around in a crowd with a final resting place in the opponents' hands.

As others mentioned, Brandon needs to stay out of foul trouble so he can help with rim protection and on the boards.

Great game for Luke. Duke will be fine in the long run. We have a Big 3 in Brandon, Grayson, and Luke. I wasn't sure we were going to find a Big 3 going into the season. Those guys are studs that can carry us far but obviously we need one more big man, and he'll be returning from injury some time next month. We'll be okay. Just gotta survive, and it starts with a win against Cuse on Monday.

[rocketeli]

half empty/half full? Finding the water might be hard for those who didn't start following Duke until they were good. Consider--Duke only has 6 players right now, and three of them, how shall I put this...aren't going to be drafted in the NBA first round (or second.) That's thin. And you can see what happens when role players are forced to do more than Odin intended. Marshall having to play 39 minutes. Matt Jones having to play point (Matt does some things well, but point guard is not one of them, neither is being more than the 4th or 5th scoring option.) Still, the last two games, against teams that actually are not bad at all (and hit every circus shot today as others pointed out) Duke has been right there in it, despite youth, fatigue, bad luck and people being forced to do things on the floor that they are not really suited for. Actually the worst thing has been the youth--the sequence at the end of the first half against Clemson, Luke's three turnovers in the second half today, missing free throws and so on...and that's curable. If Jefferson comes back we will sneak up on some teams in the NCAAs.

[FerryFor50]

Bonzi's time clock beating fluke 3, the last second 3 after the uncalled travelling, Jackson's brick shot that somehow bounced in, Jackson's missed free throw bouncing almost straight down of the rim...without these magical events we win the game despite the missed free throws, lack of rebounding, and porous interior defense.
as soon as we got that one point lead everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong.
just a sad, sad day.

Yea zero reason to overreact to either of the last two losses. A few bounces or calls go Duke's way, we're gushing over how good the offense is.

ND hit tons of tough shots and were benefactors of some fortunate bounces. That and missed FTs were the difference.

As for those down on MP3's rebounding, he got hit a LOT going up for those. No calls.

[dukelifer]

Some pretty harsh commentary from "fans".

Ok to be disappointed with the loss, team trajectory, etc.

Until this team figures out how to play defense, every game is going to be a challenge.

I'm not calling another National Championship or Final Four.
I do believe a lot of the community were pretty down on last year's team and it took 4 freshmen until late February to figure it out.

May not happen for this team, I'll enjoy the roller coaster as this team runs its own race.

True but Quinn was huge last year. He was very poised as the Frosh figured it out. That said- lots of very close games last year as well that could have gone either way. That is the nature of the college game.

[dukelifer]

half empty/half full? Finding the water might be hard for those who didn't start following Duke until they were good. Consider--Duke only has 6 players right now, and three of them, how shall I put this...aren't going to be drafted in the NBA first round (or second.) That's thin. And you can see what happens when role players are forced to do more than Odin intended. Marshall having to play 39 minutes. Matt Jones having to play point (Matt does some things well, but point guard is not one of them, neither is being more than the 4th or 5th scoring option.) Still, the last two games, against teams that actually are not bad at all (and hit every circus shot today as others pointed out) Duke has been right there in it, despite youth, fatigue, bad luck and people being forced to do things on the floor that they are not really suited for. Actually the worst thing has been the youth--the sequence at the end of the first half against Clemson, Luke's three turnovers in the second half today, missing free throws and so on...and that's curable. If Jefferson comes back we will sneak up on some teams in the NCAAs.

There was also a sense that Clemson was a bad team. 5-1 and 3 wins against ranked opponents. Not sure we can say they are bad.

[FerryFor50]

There was also a sense that Clemson was a bad team. 5-1 and 3 wins against ranked opponents. Not sure we can say they are bad.

the same guy that said that is now bragging about how he predicted 10 losses after Duke's 4th loss and saying Duke isn't a tournament team.

I guess ND is a terrible team, too...

[Steven43]

Time to adjust expectations. I thought they were a better team. 95 points from an opponent like ND. Painful to watch.

Well, what were your exoectations and to what are you adjusting them?

I think this team is still going to be great, as long as Jefferson comes back healthy.

[FerryFor50]

Well, what were your exoectations and to what are you adjusting them?

I think this team is still going to be great, as long as Jefferson comes back healthy.

Agreed. Without Jefferson, though... Small margin of error dictated by staying out of foul trouble

[wavedukefan70s]

We will be fine .i do believe we have to play obi and a few others till they foul out so they are serviceable. No garantees amile will come back as the same player or get back up to speed quickly. We can and will get better.

[uh_no]

before the utah state game, luke was 6/23, or about 26%
since the utah state game, luke is 22/56...or a smidgen short of 40%


kid started slow, but seems to have settled in. Nearly two months shooting at around 40%? i'll take it.

[DukieInBrasil]

The D in this game was almost as bad as against Vermont 2 years ago. Granted, ND has a reputation as a far better offensive team, but the current iteration of this Duke squad can't stop the ball. Or rebound.
Very nice offensive showing, and glad to see Luke hit some shots. Very sad that Jeter has become a complete non-factor.

[NashvilleDevil]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

What were you saying after the back to back losses to NC State and Miami last year? Two games where Duke was beaten rather soundly. Duke will make the tournament this year to say otherwise is ridiculous. But please continue coming on the boards and touting that this team is terrible and they'll lose 10 games and won't make the tournament.

[Neals384]

The sky is officially falling. Actually, I thought today was a much better effort than the Clemson game. Our guys played hard but they just didn't have any answer for ND.

[uh_no]

The D in this game was almost as bad as against Vermont 2 years ago. Granted, ND has a reputation as a far better offensive team, but the current iteration of this Duke squad can't stop the ball. Or rebound.
Very nice offensive showing, and glad to see Luke hit some shots. Very sad that Jeter has become a complete non-factor.

based on year-end KP stats, vermont would have been expected to put up a 111 and put up a 138
ND was expected to put up a 122 and put up a 135

the defense was pretty bad today, but at least was within a stones throw of what we would have expected to put up based on how the team is playing.

The vermont game was absolutely worse by a few points, and farrrr worse relative to expectations. vermont was putting up 102 on offense...notre dame is 20 points better.

our defense is bad, yeah, but don't sell ND short. they're phenomenally efficient.

[dyedwab]

1) This is not a good defensive team for Duke and Notre Dame is a very good offensive team. We lost this game because of UND's 2nd chance points and because of the (few) more empty offensive possession we had because of TO's and bad shot selection, as well as the (few) missed FTS. But when you aren't getting any stops, every empty possession matters.

2) This team is unlikely to be a good defensive team, and we are going to play at least 3 more teams (MiA, UVA, and UNC) who are in the same range of offensive efficiency as UND. We shouldn't expect our defensive to be much better. Counter-intuitively, our decision making on offense needs to be much better.

3) Also, we got our hands on a lot of rebounds/loose balls that ended up in Notre Dame possessions. We need to attack as loose balls the way someone who hasn't eater for a week looks at a sandwich.

4) We were even thinner today than normal. Jeter/Obi/Thornton combined to play less than 18 minute. Notable

5) Thornton played 14 minutes today - and I'd be hard pressed to argue he should have played more, except for spelling other players. His decision-making today was not particularly good. He'll get better, but today was not his day.

6) I would argue that the strength of this team is it's ridiculous offensive efficiency. That's how we win. I think we just have to assume that we are gonna give up a lot points. We just can't give points away on the offensive end.

[53n206]

6) I would argue that the strength of this team is it's ridiculous offensive efficiency. That's how we win. I think we just have to assume that we are gonna give up a lot points. We just can't give points away on the offensive end.

When you don't have very many players it's hard to be aggressive on defense. Yes we need Jefferson.

[DukieInBrasil]

1) This is not a good defensive team for Duke and Notre Dame is a very good offensive team. We lost this game because of UND's 2nd chance points and because of the (few) more empty offensive possession we had because of TO's and bad shot selection, as well as the (few) missed FTS. But when you aren't getting any stops, every empty possession matters.

2) This team is unlikely to be a good defensive team, and we are going to play at least 3 more teams (MiA, UVA, and UNC) who are in the same range of offensive efficiency as UND. We shouldn't expect our defensive to be much better. Counter-intuitively, our decision making on offense needs to be much better.

3) Also, we got our hands on a lot of rebounds/loose balls that ended up in Notre Dame possessions. We need to attack as loose balls the way someone who hasn't eater for a week looks at a sandwich.

4) We were even thinner today than normal. Jeter/Obi/Thornton combined to play less than 18 minute. Notable

5) Thornton played 14 minutes today - and I'd be hard pressed to argue he should have played more, except for spelling other players. His decision-making today was not particularly good. He'll get better, but today was not his day.

6) I would argue that the strength of this team is it's ridiculous offensive efficiency. That's how we win. I think we just have to assume that we are gonna give up a lot points. We just can't give points away on the offensive end.

Thornton is a Fr., but he doesn't seem to have made any progress lately, he improved quite a bit from the first games up through Xmas or so. Since then he's pretty much been the same player. Which is a shame, b/c he is the only guard we have who can prevent dribble penetration. On the other hand, his off the ball defense isn't good. He's a gifted ball handler, but rather mediocre distributor. He's got a scorer's mentality, but has a lot of trouble finishing in the lane. It would be nice if he could get K's trust enough on the offensive side of the ball to stay on the court more, b/c we don't need Matt Jones playing PG at all, and we don't need for Matt to be playing nearly 40 minutes, dude needs a rest. Same for MP3, dude needs a rest and Jeter just can't do it.
Luke has had a huge jump in his productivity lately, so that is nice. It's also a good sign that it is possible that both/either of Derryck or Chase can make themselves more useful during this year.

[jv001]

Thornton is a Fr., but he doesn't seem to have made any progress lately, he improved quite a bit from the first games up through Xmas or so. Since then he's pretty much been the same player. Which is a shame, b/c he is the only guard we have who can prevent dribble penetration. On the other hand, his off the ball defense isn't good. He's a gifted ball handler, but rather mediocre distributor. He's got a scorer's mentality, but has a lot of trouble finishing in the lane. It would be nice if he could get K's trust enough on the offensive side of the ball to stay on the court more, b/c we don't need Matt Jones playing PG at all, and we don't need for Matt to be playing nearly 40 minutes, dude needs a rest. Same for MP3, dude needs a rest and Jeter just can't do it.
Luke has had a huge jump in his productivity lately, so that is nice. It's also a good sign that it is possible that both/either of Derryck or Chase can make themselves more useful during this year.

Good points regarding Thornton and Matt. It looked like at the beginning of the season, Thornton was told to be aggressive, in an attempt to get his confidence level up. Now it looks like he's too aggressive on offense. There are times he should just set up the offense and let Grayson, Brandon and Luke do their thing. Derryck is a good defender and needs to be on the court playing positive minutes. But he'll have to stay under control. GoDuke!

[MCFinARL]

I know this isn't gong to happen, but isn't there any room for Obi to play, say 6 or 7 minutes a game just to try to get rebounds, even if he is limited everywhere else? We have good offensive players. Today, Coach K and Matt Jones, post game, clearly hung the loss on poor defensive rebounding--and it's true, ND got 18 second-chance points. With 2-3 rebounds from Obi, maybe that's only 10-12.

Obi's one offensive rebound today was notable for the strength with which he protected the ball once he got it--something our other rebounders were struggling with today.

[Steven43]

The defense couldn't get stops. It is not often we shoot 50 percent on 3 PT FGs, score 91 points and lose. But we did today. Congrats to Notre Dame.

Look at it this way: if Matt Jones had not bricked those two free throws towards the end, and if the refs had called the obvious travel on the Notre Dame guard (which allowed them to make a three-point basket right at the buzzer of the shot clock, Duke would have won by one point.

Also, it would have been nice if Coach had drawn up a platy for either Brandon, Luke, or Grayson rather than Matt (who badly missed a three-point attempt) things might have gone differently..

[Duke76]

I know this isn't gong to happen, but isn't there any room for Obi to play, say 6 or 7 minutes a game just to try to get rebounds, even if he is limited everywhere else? We have good offensive players. Today, Coach K and Matt Jones, post game, clearly hung the loss on poor defensive rebounding--and it's true, ND got 18 second-chance points. With 2-3 rebounds from Obi, maybe that's only 10-12.

Obi's one offensive rebound today was notable for the strength with which he protected the ball once he got it--something our other rebounders were struggling with today.

anyone hear Coach K's presser

[jv001]

Look at it this way: if Matt Jones had not bricked those two free throws towards the end, and if the refs had called the obvious travel on the Notre Dame guard (which allowed them to make a three-point basket right at the buzzer of the shot clock, Duke would have won by one point.

Also, it would have been nice if Coach had drawn up a platy for either Brandon, Luke, or Grayson rather than Matt (who badly missed a three-point attempt) things might have gone differently..

I have a feeling that Coach K did not want Matt taking that last shot. He should be #4 just before Marshall in the pecking order for a pressure shot. His form is not one that will be consistent under pressure. It seems to me that when Coach K calls a timeout to set up a key defense stand, we give up an easy basket. Either the players don't get what Coach is telling them or they are not talented enough to pull off the stand. I had rather see him call a timeout for a key offensive play (as long as Matt is not the one running the play). GoDuke!

[uh_no]

5) Thornton played 14 minutes today - and I'd be hard pressed to argue he should have played more, except for spelling other players. His decision-making today was not particularly good. He'll get better, but today was not his day.

and ironically enough, he had the highest +/- on the team!

at this point, luke is becoming far too good of a weapon to not have him on the floor...especially when we need to score a lot of points.

I'm not sure that Derryck is providing enough of a currently needed skillset over luke to justify NOT having luke on the floor, and judging by the direction the minutes, K seems to agree.

It was good to see Obi out there, the crazies love him. they went nuts when he got a board and got to the line, and that appears to be a consequence of how jeter has been playing.

That said, if plumlee can stay on the floor for 30+ minutes, I don't see any reason to put obi out there in place of him for "rebounding here and there"...he's not going to bring an overall package than plumlee is. so if plumlee is fit, and not in foul trouble, he'll be out there. The interesting thing might be to put him out there at the 4...but given the relative depth at guard, and how thin we are down low, there's no compelling reason to have two bigs out there at once (i think plumlee and obi were there for a few seconds at the end of the half when ND was shooting a FT or some such). We'd be removing a great offensive threat for what currently amounts to an offensive zero.

get well soon amile.

[subzero02]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

Slow down there trigger... not a tournament team? Please stay away from sharp objects for a while.

[ThrowItAround]

Disappointed, yes. But, I think we're going to be fine, I like what the players were saying after the game. When Amile comes back we're as good as anyone IMO. Beat Cuse!!!

[gurufrisbee]

While it is frustrating when we have losses like these last two because:

A) we clearly had some major areas of poor play
B) there were clearly some bad officiating against us
and
C) we didn't have Amile

because if ANY of those are different, then the games are close enough that we win instead of losing. Really, the Utah game is the same (though I don't think the officiating then was bad).

That makes us really close to being a one loss team right now. As such, we would be in the top three of the polls and people would think we're amazing.

Instead now we have talk about ten losses and missing the tournament.

So the real question is - do you think those three things will all continue?

Obviously there is no way to no about B. At all.

A seems unlikely simply because we're so young and our coaching is so good.

C seems unlikely as well because I think they would say so if they thought Amile couldn't come back.

In that sense, I'm not feeling like this season is lost at all.

But it would be really nice if they realized that their ball movement offense is the best in the nation, so when guys are going one one one, it's a terrible idea.

And it would be nice if Amile was back.

Soon.

[UrinalCake]

What were you saying after the back to back losses to NC State and Miami last year? Two games where Duke was beaten rather soundly.

I didn't think this was possible, but this year's team is actually worse defensively than last year's at the same time. And yes, I was at that Miami game where we got destroyed by high ball screens over and over again and then the Miami players and coaches bragged about it in the post-game press conferences. Today there was about a ten minute stretch in the second half where ND scored on basically every single possession. It seemed like a victory if we held them to "only" getting a two. I know that ND is a really good offensive team, but they just got wide open looks relatively easily and we couldn't do anything about it.

Maybe we can turn it around like we did last year, but the last two games have sure been discouraging. The ACC has a ton of good offensive teams - something like 5 of the top 10 in the country in KenPom - so we're going to have to get used to these high scoring games and will need to find a way to get some stops.

[Bob Green]

Obviously there is no way to no about B.

I don't know about that.

[Furniture]

Well, we scored 91 points vs Vermont and won that one :rolleyes:...

Or maybe :mad: .

It was K that went nuts acts that game. Unacceptable was what I think he called it

[arnie]

Disappointed, yes. But, I think we're going to be fine, I like what the players were saying after the game. When Amile comes back we're as good as anyone IMO. Beat Cuse!!!

I wish that were so, but not sure Amile comes back 100%. If he can't, development of other
"Bigs" is imperative if we expect a season better than middle of the ACC pack.

[barjwr]

FWIW, the Clemson loss doesn't look as bad today, now that they've beaten three straight ranked teams after smoking Miami today.

[CDu]

Bonzie Colson was 3-15 in his career from 3. He hit 2 of 3 today. He was under 70% from the line this season, but went 5-5 today. It was an otherworldly performance from him. And it almost wasn't enough. I said if we played just a little defense today it would be enough. But we just really struggled on that end today.

Our defense without Jefferson is not very good. Our depth without Jefferson is borderline nonexistent. If we had Jefferson today, we win. And it probably isn't even close. But without him, we had no answer for Colson inside. He bullied Ingram and Jones and Jeter inside. The ridiculous threes he hit were just salt in the wounds.

I mean, I can't say it was great to lose, but it is hard to get too worked up about it. We are just an okay team without Jefferson. We have lost now close against three okay (probably bubble) teams. Until we get Jefferson back, the margin for error will be razor thin. There is a good chance we reach the ACC tourney with 8 or 9 total losses unless Jefferson gets back really soon. These were the "easy" games on the schedule.

That being said, there was some good. The offense looked great, albeit against perhaps the worst defense we will face in conference. Kennard is getting better and better. Those threes that just krpt missing in 2015 are falling now, and he is continuing to show savvy off the dribble. Dude can play. He also seems to be stepping up in the second half when the team is scuffling. Bright future for him.

Ingram was great as well. He torched Colson as much as Colson did him. Unfortunately, in the race to foul trouble, he got there first. Getting his third and fourth fouls so early in the half just took the wind from our sails and we were fighting uphill from there. But Ingram is a star. He just has to figure out how to avoid foul trouble with Jefferson out.

Tough night for Jones. He just didn't have it, and we needed his leadership in that second half.

The other two frosh seem to be going backwards right now. That isn't unexpected for an unseasoned PG and a frosh big man. But with Jefferson out their struggles have really hurt that much more.

Plumlee and Allen each had good moments, but also each disappeared too much. As veterans, they need to step up more.

Tough loss. This team is young, undermanned, and has a lot to learn. Just gotta hope Jefferson comes back soon, and that we don't dig too big a hole that we end up with a low seed in the tourney.

[vrob90]

Well, what were your exoectations and to what are you adjusting them?

I think this team is still going to be great, as long as Jefferson comes back healthy.

My expectations were higher than believing we'd lose eight or ten games. I'm guessing that's where it's headed. Jefferson coming back and coming back at the top of his game, which we need, seems problematic. Sorry I don't share your greatness notion. I could certainly be wrong. Hope I am.

[BD80]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.

I enjoy watching this team. They'll lose some, but they compete and they are gifted and entertaining. Acting disappointed in these kids is a carolina snob move.

We don't commit all resources to offensive rebounding, which is a big reason it is so offensive. A priority for our defense is to rotate back to defend the fast break.

Our defensive rotations are so poor, our guys aren't able to adequately block out on the defensive glass. They are young, and will get better. This is an area in which last year's team made great strides.

I keep hearing that Matt Jones is our best defender and even that he is one of the better defenders in the country, but I don't see it.

[Saratoga2]

8 losses would be a fantastic turn around for this team. Assuming we don't win the National Championship, that means we go the rest of the regular season with 2-3 losses? That would incredible, and unfortunately, we're probably looking at double digit losses almost certainly at this point.

I thought Marshall played fine. He's never had the surest hands, but the way he was able to challenge almost every shot while staying out of foul trouble has to be a net positive. He's our ONLY big man, and with Ingram in foul trouble, he was the last line of defense on every drive. Get this: MARSHALL PLUMLEE PLAYED 39 MINUTES. I'm proud of his effort today. They just hit a ton of really tough shots over him.

The contention that Marshall challenged every shot is questionable. For a large part of the game I thought he played soft and left a lot of room for the shooter to score over him. When they missed, I thought he was also slow to get to rebound position. In the last part of the game he seemed to up the intensity and then had meaningful plays and minutes. 39 minutes is a lot for him to play and he would be better with Amile to give him support and rest.

[DUKIE V(A)]

1. The notion that this team is not a tournament team is ludicrous. The last 2 losses have been extremely frustrating but this team is a threat in the ACC and NCAA tournaments. Just need a little luck, good match ups, and to get hot at the right time.
2. A healthy Amile returning will make a big difference. His presence is huge both offensively (rebounding, garbage baskets, and quality inside post moves) and defensively (versatility and rebounding). His on court leadership is critical and once healthy he will give the rest of the guys over 30 minutes collective rest a game.

[Rickshaw]

i think kennard goes higher than allen

[CameronBornAndBred]

I said Wednesday we are a 10 loss team and everyone went nuts. I hope we are only a 10 loss team at this point. second straight loss to an unranked team with February looming. We are not a tournament team, incredibly disappointed in this group.
I blame Coach P.

[weezie]

Meanwhile, Tyus Jones never gets to play in the NBA. Alas.

That was a mantra in our section today. We are in some alternative universe territory this year.


...and where were the Crazies? :mad:
Love, Ima

I don't want to be that person but there were times when getting on the tv screen inside the stadium seemed very important to the Crazies. Of course, when they erupted at the ref over the horrible, criminal travel call on Kennard, they had more than enough help from us oldsters upstairs. Crowd fury was as loud as I've ever heard in there. Just appallingly bad calls all game long. The block/charge arc is kind of like a do-it-yourself project for the refs. They must enjoy themselves since they won't let anyone else in on the secret. Duke is so young and the team is having a hard time reacting to inconsistent calls.


...as long as Jefferson comes back healthy.

Your lips to God's ears but he wasn't walking quite as smoothly as I would have hoped to see at this point. They must have put pins in his foot. And he's going to need plenty of time to find his pace again so I can't expect miracles.


...Acting disappointed in these kids is a carolina snob move...

Agreed. The looks on their faces after the game were pretty heart-breaking as they went over to the Crazies in a handshake line.

[weezie]

i think kennard goes higher than allen


I think the rough play has caught up with Allen a little bit. He looks a quarter step slow on drives. By then the irish were collapsing under the basket and rolling the dice that one of them would get the charge.

[jv001]

i think kennard goes higher than allen

Ai think they are both pretty terrific. GoDuke!

[jv001]

The contention that Marshall challenged every shot is questionable. For a large part of the game I thought he played soft and left a lot of room for the shooter to score over him. When they missed, I thought he was also slow to get to rebound position. In the last part of the game he seemed to up the intensity and then had meaningful plays and minutes. 39 minutes is a lot for him to play and he would be better with Amile to give him support and rest.

I agree that Marshall did not challenge as many shots in the first half as he did in the 2nd half. But I think that's by design because the coaches know that they will not get hardly anything from Jeter. My hope is that Obi has recovered from whatever knee problems he had. If he can contribute a little on defense and in rebounding in a few minutes, that can give MPIII and Ingram some rest. GoDuke!

[devildeac]

I blame Coach P.

That's just crazietalk...

:rolleyes:

I think you've spent waaaay too much time in Section 21 ;) .

[kAzE]

The contention that Marshall challenged every shot is questionable. For a large part of the game I thought he played soft and left a lot of room for the shooter to score over him. When they missed, I thought he was also slow to get to rebound position. In the last part of the game he seemed to up the intensity and then had meaningful plays and minutes. 39 minutes is a lot for him to play and he would be better with Amile to give him support and rest.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised he was able to compete at all playing that many minutes. Considering the way he normally plays, he had to have been absolutely exhausted by the end, so I'm willing to overlook any "softness" that he might have shown. This is just something we're going to have to deal with until Amile returns.

The question is, would you rather he be more aggressive and possibly get in foul trouble or just stay on the floor? If we had any sort of capable back up big, of course you'd want him to be more aggressive and show some more toughness. But we don't, and he just has to stay on the floor. We almost won this game despite career nights for 2 of their players and an amazing performance from a 3rd. This is not on Marshall. It's not any player's fault. We played great, but they played better than we did. They had amazing performances from multiple players. Not sure how we could have won that one when they are shooting the lights out like that.

[gep]

I agree that Marshall did not challenge as many shots in the first half as he did in the 2nd half. But I think that's by design because the coaches know that they will not get hardly anything from Jeter. My hope is that Obi has recovered from whatever knee problems he had. If he can contribute a little on defense and in rebounding in a few minutes, that can give MPIII and Ingram some rest. GoDuke!


I'm actually pleasantly surprised he was able to compete at all playing that many minutes. Considering the way he normally plays, he had to have been absolutely exhausted by the end, so I'm willing to overlook any "softness" that he might have shown. This is just something we're going to have to deal with until Amile returns.

The question is, would you rather he be more aggressive and possibly get in foul trouble or just stay on the floor? If we had any sort of capable back up big, of course you'd want him to be more aggressive and show some more toughness. But we don't, and he just has to stay on the floor. We almost won this game despite career nights for 2 of their players and an amazing performance from a 3rd. This is not on Marshall. It's not any player's fault. We played great, but they played better than we did. They had amazing performances from multiple players. Not sure how we could have won that one when they are shooting the lights out like that.

If I recall correctly, there was a time when Mason was in the same "situation". He had to stay on the floor, so played, what appeared to be, "soft defense". I give Marshall large props for being able to play 35+ minutes while trying to stay within the game plan.

[wavedukefan70s]

Thats why i was saying we have to develop atleast one more big incase.force feed them.

[kAzE]

I'm optimistic about our chance to put together a winning streak following this loss. We lost, but I really thought we played GREAT. If it takes monumental shooting performances from 3 guys to beat us by FOUR, I'm okay with that. I see us bouncing back from this game with some good positives to take from our performance from this one:

1. Luke is taking over. I thought the move to put Luke in the starting lineup was a huge positive. His role has clearly increased, with career highs in minutes, points, and shot attempts. Coach K has put the offense in his hands, and he has responded brilliantly. All hail our new Kennard overlord.

2. Grayson running point seems to work pretty well. I think Grayson is the best passer on the team and has the athleticism to makes some passes that others can't. He tends to turn the ball over at times, but his aggressiveness really helps him set up his teammates nicely. I don't understand why Matt initiates the offense . . he hasn't really developed into much more than a spot up shooter, and I'm not sure why we insist on him running the offense at times.

3. We still managed to compete with Brandon in foul trouble. Brandon played some heavy minutes in the 2nd half with 4 fouls. I think he is learning how to play without fouling and hopefully he continues to improve in that area. He has to understand how important he is to this team on the defensive end, and we're a completely different team when he's in foul trouble.

[Kedsy]

before the utah state game, luke was 6/23, or about 26%
since the utah state game, luke is 22/56...or a smidgen short of 40%


kid started slow, but seems to have settled in. Nearly two months shooting at around 40%? i'll take it.

Cherry pick much? Pick a range when a guy shoots 8 for 11 in the first and last games of your range (and only has 50-some shots overall), and it can get misleading. In between the Utah State and the Notre Dame games, Luke shot 31% from three. So it hasn't really been a slow start and then top-notch shooting -- more than 46% of this three-point makes have come from just three games. The rest of his season, including his last five before tonight, have been sort of blah (coming into the Notre Dame game, Luke had shot 5 for 17 (29.4%) from three in his last five games).

No question, the kid had a great game tonight, other than the 4 turnovers, and he shot really well in this one. He's been a strong scorer and an outstanding rebounder for a guard for most of the season. He seems to have the intangibles. His defense has been at least adequate (possibly better) and he seems to be quite a good communicator out there. But I don't understand why everybody wants to overstate his shooting prowess.

[kAzE]

Cherry pick much? Pick a range when a guy shoots 8 for 11 in the first and last games of your range (and only has 50-some shots overall), and it can get misleading. In between the Utah State and the Notre Dame games, Luke shot 31% from three. So it hasn't really been a slow start and then top-notch shooting -- more than 46% of this three-point makes have come from just three games. The rest of his season, including his last five before tonight, have been sort of blah (coming into the Notre Dame game, Luke had shot 5 for 17 (29.4%) from three in his last five games).

No question, the kid had a great game tonight, other than the 4 turnovers, and he shot really well in this one. He's been a strong scorer and an outstanding rebounder for a guard for most of the season. He seems to have the intangibles. His defense has been at least adequate (possibly better) and he seems to be quite a good communicator out there. But I don't understand why everybody wants to overstate his shooting prowess.

Why does the 3 point shot factor in so heavily for you? Look at the big picture: over his last 5 (exact same stretch you just mentioned), he's shooting 32 for 55 and 19 of 21 from the free throw line. He's been the most efficient shooter (other than Marshall, but those are almost all dunks) on the team in conference play. And his 3 point stroke looked good tonight. If that continues, this might not be his last 30 point game of the season.

[smvalkyries]

Its taken me this long to get over my disappointment of todays game and post my thoughts
(1) I am not unhappy that Matt took the last shot. Actually I am glad he had the confidence to do it after Wednesday. Matt is a junior, he is one of our leaders and he has proven he can hit those shots and has earned the right to take them- the next one will go in. That said would I rather One of our hotter and healthier players had gotten the open shot, yes as it turnrd out but the defense has something to do with that too.
(2) Similarly I am not going to blame MP3 for having a bit of an off game defensively. Marshall has provided us with much more than anyone could have expected all year and we just can't expect him to be great every game when he is more or less alone as our rim protector. Today it always seemed like he was on the wrong side of the basket to provide much protection. I know under FOM rules the perimeter can't stop drivers w/o foulinfg anymore but can't we at least funnel them to their off hand once in awhile?
(3) People keep bemoaning our lack of defense- well the game has changed , the only effective defense is rim protection ND had several protectors/rebounders while we had one or 2 until ingram gets called 4 times. If FOM forces you either to foul trouble or zone you are going to have a problem when the other team is hot from 3 and insurrmountable problems when afflicted by both. One of the things i hate about this new basketball is the difficulty for even good defences to get a stop when necessary. Without rim protectors and someone to clean up the boards when the protector forces a miss but not a block its impossible. If the game is going to continue to be played like this I am afraid we are going to have to recruit more single skill defensive centers and shot blockers at the expense of solid perimeter defenders.
(4) I don't know if Amile can still get a med redshirt this year but if I were him I would check into it. the way he was playing he might just make the end of an NBA roster but even if he comes back mid february he will have to get back in basketball shape and my thoughts are it is not reasonable to expect him to regain his early season form?
(5) If Amile does not come back I am afraid we are just going to be stuck with trying to outscore people or against teams with weak foul shooting centers use our 15 fouls with Jeter, Obi and
Vranick hack a shaq style.(Thereby incorpotrated the worst part of the NBA game along with the just bad part) Since we are already giving up more TO's in our losses than we are forcing we also might as well give up on man-to-man defense until we get the second rim protector and just play zone. I know this isn't Duke basketball, and I don't find it entertaining but I wasn't the one who took perimeter D and probably man to man D out of the game either.
(6) At this point I really can't tell if our perimeter defenders would be better or worse than anyone else's if they were allowed to play D. Historically i used to think ours were better and the core of our program but now i don't think it matters either way. Tell me again how much you all like FOM LOL.

[Saratoga2]

Its taken me this long to get over my disappointment of todays game and post my thoughts
(1) I am not unhappy that Matt took the last shot. Actually I am glad he had the confidence to do it after Wednesday. Matt is a junior, he is one of our leaders and he has proven he can hit those shots and has earned the right to take them- the next one will go in. That said would I rather One of our hotter and healthier players had gotten the open shot, yes as it turnrd out but the defense has something to do with that too.
(2) Similarly I am not going to blame MP3 for having a bit of an off game defensively. Marshall has provided us with much more than anyone could have expected all year and we just can't expect him to be great every game when he is more or less alone as our rim protector. Today it always seemed like he was on the wrong side of the basket to provide much protection. I know under FOM rules the perimeter can't stop drivers w/o foulinfg anymore but can't we at least funnel them to their off hand once in awhile?
(3) People keep bemoaning our lack of defense- well the game has changed , the only effective defense is rim protection ND had several protectors/rebounders while we had one or 2 until ingram gets called 4 times. If FOM forces you either to foul trouble or zone you are going to have a problem when the other team is hot from 3 and insurrmountable problems when afflicted by both. One of the things i hate about this new basketball is the difficulty for even good defences to get a stop when necessary. Without rim protectors and someone to clean up the boards when the protector forces a miss but not a block its impossible. If the game is going to continue to be played like this I am afraid we are going to have to recruit more single skill defensive centers and shot blockers at the expense of solid perimeter defenders.
(4) I don't know if Amile can still get a med redshirt this year but if I were him I would check into it. the way he was playing he might just make the end of an NBA roster but even if he comes back mid february he will have to get back in basketball shape and my thoughts are it is not reasonable to expect him to regain his early season form?
(5) If Amile does not come back I am afraid we are just going to be stuck with trying to outscore people or against teams with weak foul shooting centers use our 15 fouls with Jeter, Obi and
Vranick hack a shaq style.(Thereby incorpotrated the worst part of the NBA game along with the just bad part) Since we are already giving up more TO's in our losses than we are forcing we also might as well give up on man-to-man defense until we get the second rim protector and just play zone. I know this isn't Duke basketball, and I don't find it entertaining but I wasn't the one who took perimeter D and probably man to man D out of the game either.
(6) At this point I really can't tell if our perimeter defenders would be better or worse than anyone else's if they were allowed to play D. Historically i used to think ours were better and the core of our program but now i don't think it matters either way. Tell me again how much you all like FOM LOL.

One thought about Matt is that he may be playing too many minutes for him to handle. Guys respond to work load differently and perhaps he doesn't do that well. One thought is that we make him the sixth man for a while and promote Luke to starting, which he already did in the ND game and start Thornton as well while bringing Matt in for periods. We presumably lose some defense for short periods but get a fresher Matt when he comes in.

I still recommend that MP3 play with more aggressiveness. He did much better when he cranked it up at the end of the game and finished with 2 PF. He played so far away from the driver that they had essentially uncontested shots. Arguing that we have to keep our only rim protector on the floor if he doesn't provide any rim protection seems like a circular argument. I am not criticizing him so much as urging the coaching staff to recognize that we need more aggressive defensive rim protection and rebounding and to look for better ways to get that. Sub some players for MP3 and then let him play when in there.

Clearly Amile would make a lot of difference if he can return to anything near his past performance this year. I don't see him going medical redshirt and just hope he can return in February. Perhaps the team will be able to salvage a good enough record to get an opportunity for a decent seed in the tournament.

I believe Luke, Brandon and Grayson are reasonably good defenders and compete with most teams. Matt is experienced and needs to be used against people he can handle. Probably not the quickest guard on the opponents team. Brandon can't be asked to handle very strong mobile bigs (but what is the alternative until Amile gets back). Derryck is inexperienced but is very quick and plays hard. As he develops, he is our best answer to guarding opponents quick guards. I don't know if anyone on any team can stop penetration, yet other teams have rim protector(s) in enough numbers to let them play aggressively.

[sagegrouse]

Two modest suggestions:

Fix the defensive rebounding, which is a matter of effort as much as talent. Tell Marshall to "go for broke" and use Obi and Chase liberally as substitutes.

Also, we need to reconstitute the Duke "end of first half" magic, which has been missing. Our last two games, we gave up most of a lead instead of extending it, and then we came out flat in the second half -- or maybe, the Tigers and Irish got pumped up by their momentum at the end of the first half.

[Kedsy]

Why does the 3 point shot factor in so heavily for you?

Because people keep telling me what a great outside shooter he is.

As you may have noticed, in the rest of my post, I detailed his many virtues.

[CDu]

Cherry pick much? Pick a range when a guy shoots 8 for 11 in the first and last games of your range (and only has 50-some shots overall), and it can get misleading. In between the Utah State and the Notre Dame games, Luke shot 31% from three. So it hasn't really been a slow start and then top-notch shooting -- more than 46% of this three-point makes have come from just three games. The rest of his season, including his last five before tonight, have been sort of blah (coming into the Notre Dame game, Luke had shot 5 for 17 (29.4%) from three in his last five games).

No question, the kid had a great game tonight, other than the 4 turnovers, and he shot really well in this one. He's been a strong scorer and an outstanding rebounder for a guard for most of the season. He seems to have the intangibles. His defense has been at least adequate (possibly better) and he seems to be quite a good communicator out there. But I don't understand why everybody wants to overstate his shooting prowess.

The reason people say he is a good 3pt shooter is because he has always been a good 3pt shooter before, because he is a phenomenal free throw throw shooter (a factor incredibly highly correlated with 3pt shooting), because Coach K lets him continue to be a high volume 3pt shooter which suggests that Coach K sees him as a better shooter than his % so far, and because his struggles this year have been in a very small sample size.

The kid is now 26-80 from 3 on the season (32.5%). That percentage may not seem great, and if he had 1000 attempts it would be a clear sign that he isn't a great 3pt shooter. But with just 80 attempts, it means he is just 4 makes from being a 37.5% shooter on the year. If just 4 of those early 3s that rattled around and out fall in, nobody is questioning his outside shooting. Just 6 more and he is at 40% on the year. And an 8-20 stretch over the next 5 games (hardly unreasonable) would put him at 36% for the year in spite of the awful start. That is why those of us who saw him shoot well before and who understand the impact a small sample size can have (I know you understand this, too, which is why it is weird that you are ignoring it in this case) are of the belief that he is STILL a good 3pt shooter who has just had a lower-than-expected percentage in a small sample of attempts so far.

[RepoMan]

Great game for Luke. Duke will be fine in the long run. We have a Big 3 in Brandon, Grayson, and Luke. I wasn't sure we were going to find a Big 3 going into the season. Those guys are studs that can carry us far

Amen to this. In some ways, I see more positives than negatives in this loss. Kennard is playing at a very high level. I did not expect him to be so good this year. And, we showed a lot of guts fighting back when ND got the lead. Although we have lost 2 in a row and likely will lose some more, I don't think this team will fold mentally -- it seems like a tough resilient group. Obviously, we have defensive shortcomings, but that is entirely predictable, and there is every reason to believe that it will improve as the young guys get more experienced, and then Amile comes back. I mean its not like we have a group of guys who do not have the athletic ability to defend well. On the other hand, rebounding is likely to remain an issue for the foreseeable future.

[dukelifer]

Because people keep telling me what a great outside shooter he is.

As you may have noticed, in the rest of my post, I detailed his many virtues.

The more I watch him the more I think he is not a great 3 point shooter like Steph Curry or JJ. He actually does not shoot well when given a lot of time. Instead he is a gifted scorer who can also shoot threes and is very streaky. He is a gamer who seems to raise his level of play under pressure. He will be an excellent college player.

[Duke76]

Cherry pick much? Pick a range when a guy shoots 8 for 11 in the first and last games of your range (and only has 50-some shots overall), and it can get misleading. In between the Utah State and the Notre Dame games, Luke shot 31% from three. So it hasn't really been a slow start and then top-notch shooting -- more than 46% of this three-point makes have come from just three games. The rest of his season, including his last five before tonight, have been sort of blah (coming into the Notre Dame game, Luke had shot 5 for 17 (29.4%) from three in his last five games).

No question, the kid had a great game tonight, other than the 4 turnovers, and he shot really well in this one. He's been a strong scorer and an outstanding rebounder for a guard for most of the season. He seems to have the intangibles. His defense has been at least adequate (possibly better) and he seems to be quite a good communicator out there. But I don't understand why everybody wants to overstate his shooting prowess.

I think early in the season, he was shooting exclusively 3's it seemed like, once he started shooting mid range pull ups and driving to the basket his 3 point shooting improved, old axioms always prove to be true for most, "driving to the basket and closer shots gets you into a flow that takes pressure off your outside shot". Happens for a lot and happened for him.

[Duke76]

I'm optimistic about our chance to put together a winning streak following this loss. We lost, but I really thought we played GREAT. If it takes monumental shooting performances from 3 guys to beat us by FOUR, I'm okay with that. I see us bouncing back from this game with some good positives to take from our performance from this one:

1. Luke is taking over. I thought the move to put Luke in the starting lineup was a huge positive. His role has clearly increased, with career highs in minutes, points, and shot attempts. Coach K has put the offense in his hands, and he has responded brilliantly. All hail our new Kennard overlord.

2. Grayson running point seems to work pretty well. I think Grayson is the best passer on the team and has the athleticism to makes some passes that others can't. He tends to turn the ball over at times, but his aggressiveness really helps him set up his teammates nicely. I don't understand why Matt initiates the offense . . he hasn't really developed into much more than a spot up shooter, and I'm not sure why we insist on him running the offense at times.

3. We still managed to compete with Brandon in foul trouble. Brandon played some heavy minutes in the 2nd half with 4 fouls. I think he is learning how to play without fouling and hopefully he continues to improve in that area. He has to understand how important he is to this team on the defensive end, and we're a completely different team when he's in foul trouble.


I think in 2 above, K has matt at the point because grayson likes to drive from the left wing and Luke from the right wing. but I agree somewhat with your post as well because matt is just a post up shooter that occasionally can drive and hit the off balance floating, but it is always an adventure....he seems to hit more of his shots from the wing

[JPtheGame]

Are we on the bubble yet? (Kidding....sort of).
We are set up to win 4 of our next 5 assuming we can deal with barber which isn't a given after watching Jackson do whatever he wanted last night.
If we can clip unc and or Virginia once along the way and win 2 in the acc tourney, we should be be in 4-6 seed territory with a punchers chance given that we can score as well as anyone.

Amile needs to stay gone until next year. He doesn't solve all of our issues this year but would be the missing piece next year for a final four team.

[Wander]

The more I watch him the more I think he is not a great 3 point shooter like Steph Curry or JJ.

Not being as good as the two best three point shooters in college basketball history doesn't mean you're not a good (or even great) 3 point shooter. Luke seems like a good outside shooter to me right now.

[kAzE]

Are we on the bubble yet? (Kidding...sort of).
We are set up to win 4 of our next 5 assuming we can deal with barber which isn't a given after watching Jackson do whatever he wanted last night.
If we can clip unc and or Virginia once along the way and win 2 in the acc tourney, we should be be in 4-6 seed territory with a punchers chance given that we can score as well as anyone.

Amile needs to stay gone until next year. He doesn't solve all of our issues this year but would be the missing piece next year for a final four team.

I'm still fairly optimistic about our tournament chances with a healthy Amile. If he'd never been injured, it's entirely plausible that we'd still be at 1 loss and ranked in the top 5 of both polls. We don't need a #1 seed, just a healthy and productive Amile Jefferson. Our offense is still elite, and Amile can plug in the holes we have in rebounding and interior defense. Those seem to be the biggest issues to me at the moment. We lost the most irreplaceable player on the team. It's not surprising that we are struggling without him.

[weezie]

So what is it about BI and the whisper thin touch fouls that he gets nailed with so often? Seriously, I wonder what people here think. Is it arm length that makes it more difficult for him to retract in time? Is it the new rules and he hasn't quite adjusted yet?

His defensive shot blocks are magnificent. Other teams double him, sure, but he's got a pretty good eye for the pass, too. How to teach him to stay on the floor and out of foul trouble?

[uh_no]

Amile needs to stay gone until next year. He doesn't solve all of our issues this year but would be the missing piece next year for a final four team.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that Amile would be gracious enough to put the rest of his life on hold to play in a year that he could be doing world things? I also think it's a bit insulting to this year's team to say that they're not worth it to put the best team out on the floor.

Exactly what issues do you think amile doesn't solve or at least greatly improve? rebounding? defense? depth down low? flexibility?

[Troublemaker]

I think in 2 above, K has matt at the point because grayson likes to drive from the left wing and Luke from the right wing.

Yep, you got it. And in general, Duke is running a wing-based offense. We set wing ball-screens, we dribble-handoff to the wings, we allow the wings to go 1-on-1, and sometimes we'll have the bigs set baseline screens for the wings to curl into the lane or pop-out for a corner 3 depending on how the defense plays it.

Matt may be the "point guard" but all the playmaking / creating is done by Grayson, Brandon, and Luke. All Matt does is bring the ball up the court and then passes to the wing or the high post to start the offense, and then he plays off of what the Big 3 do. I wish Derryck would do the same because he's taking too many 2-pt jumpers for my taste since he's only hitting 34.5% on them.

As Luke has emerged, Matt has reduced his usage and allowed those 3 guys to become the Big 3 on offense. Matt's usage rates the past 4 games have been 17%, 16%, 16%, 14%. Perfect. He's close to being just a spot-up shooter at this point, and despite a couple of memorable misses these past two games, Matt has the highest 3-pt shooting percentage on the team on the most attempts. He may be a "point guard" but he's playing a Derek Fisher type point guard, which is a good role for him with the surrounding talent.

[JPtheGame]

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that Amile would be gracious enough to put the rest of his life on hold to play in a year that he could be doing world things? I also think it's a bit insulting to this year's team to say that they're not worth it to put the best team out on the floor.

Exactly what issues do you think amile doesn't solve or at least greatly improve? rebounding? defense? depth down low? flexibility?

It's just as presumptuous to think amile would want this for his last year in the Duke program. He's worked very hard to become the player he is now and I think a full season is the least he could expect as a reward for this work.
Amile is better than what we have and every useful player improves depth so you can check all your boxes. Coming back and reconditioning and reintegrating into the rotation (not easy, remember how different Duke looked when kyrie returned) for a few games doesn't help us beat the teams we would need to beat in the round of 16 and beyond.
As for "world things", let's not act like amile is a lock to even be drafted and let's not act like working on a graduate degree and spending another full year with the program don't qualify as world things. The d league will still be there a year from now.

[xdev]

MP3 is pretty good on defense from my POV. He reads the situation well, he reacts fairly quickly (although that can always improve,) he generally challenges shots around the rim, especially drivers, and he doesn't let the drivers create a foul. Unfortunately that 6-8 wingspan turns a lot of would be blocks into shots that get over his fingertips by an inch or so.

That said, in the last 5 minutes he seemed to find a new sense of urgency, or focus, or something, an instinctive aggression he hasn't shown to that degree before. That led to 2 defensive rebounds, 2 offensive rebounds, a block, a dunk, and an overall improved defensive presence IMO. Hopefully he can bottle that and take it forward into the remainder of the season.

That said, without Amile, and especially without the ability to run the Amile-Marshall-Brandon front line, there needs to be a real group effort from the perimeter players to crash the defensive glass. Equalize the second chance points, and Duke wins by double digits.

[Troublemaker]

It's just as presumptuous to think amile would want this for his last year in the Duke program.

It's a safe presumption, lol. In this program, people take their senior leadership responsibilities very seriously. He's not going to abandon these guys. And, btw, Brandon Ingram deserves to have the best shot he can get at postseason success in his one year in Durham.

Stop trying to create some unbeatable superteam next year. It's not even possible with a single-elimination playoff format. Ask Kentucky.



Amile is better than what we have and every useful player improves depth so you can check all your boxes. Coming back and reconditioning and reintegrating into the rotation (not easy, remember how different Duke looked when kyrie returned) for a few games doesn't help us beat the teams we would need to beat in the round of 16 and beyond.

This is indefensible, or at least I haven't seen anyone present a good argument for it. Duke's roster with Amile stacks up as well as any team's.

[uh_no]

This is indefensible, or at least I haven't seen anyone present a good argument for it. Duke's roster with Amile stacks up as well as any team's.

people seem to forget that brandon didn't start playing well until a few games before amile got hurt. and in that stretch, we beat a pretty good indiana team by 20, and put on one of the most impressive offensive outputs ever seen in the tempo-free era.

it's one data point....but no doubt in my mind the UK game goes differently with brandon and amile playing how they did in that december stretch.

can we get back there? that's always the question. we didn't with kyrie, we didn't with ryan. but we can hope that amile comes back sooner than kyrie and healthier than ryan.

fortunately, he shouldn't be as hard to integrate as kyrie was, since amile and marshall have played together, and matt. and there's no guard questions...which was the real problem with nolan and kyrie that game.

[Duke76]

Yep, you got it. And in general, Duke is running a wing-based offense. We set wing ball-screens, we dribble-handoff to the wings, we allow the wings to go 1-on-1, and sometimes we'll have the bigs set baseline screens for the wings to curl into the lane or pop-out for a corner 3 depending on how the defense plays it.

Matt may be the "point guard" but all the playmaking / creating is done by Grayson, Brandon, and Luke. All Matt does is bring the ball up the court and then passes to the wing or the high post to start the offense, and then he plays off of what the Big 3 do. I wish Derryck would do the same because he's taking too many 2-pt jumpers for my taste since he's only hitting 34.5% on them.

As Luke has emerged, Matt has reduced his usage and allowed those 3 guys to become the Big 3 on offense. Matt's usage rates the past 4 games have been 17%, 16%, 16%, 14%. Perfect. He's close to being just a spot-up shooter at this point, and despite a couple of memorable misses these past two games, Matt has the highest 3-pt shooting percentage on the team on the most attempts. He may be a "point guard" but he's playing a Derek Fisher type point guard, which is a good role for him with the surrounding talent.

If Derryck would drive and dish it would be helpful to his playing time, you'd think he would figure that out by now

[kAzE]

people seem to forget that brandon didn't start playing well until a few games before amile got hurt. and in that stretch, we beat a pretty good indiana team by 20, and put on one of the most impressive offensive outputs ever seen in the tempo-free era.

it's one data point...but no doubt in my mind the UK game goes differently with brandon and amile playing how they did in that december stretch.

can we get back there? that's always the question. we didn't with kyrie, we didn't with ryan. but we can hope that amile comes back sooner than kyrie and healthier than ryan.

fortunately, he shouldn't be as hard to integrate as kyrie was, since amile and marshall have played together, and matt. and there's no guard questions...which was the real problem with nolan and kyrie that game.

I agree, it will be easier to re-integrate Amile. However, It may affect Brandon's role quite a bit, so his adjustment to playing more on the perimeter will be the key. I also think that this team with Amile is a VERY good team. Before he was injured, I thought a final four was going to be within reach. Now, given that our seeding will definitely be hurt from our losses, and with the setback to our team's development while fully healthy, it will be much more difficult, but I think still doable. I'm still not counting us out for a trip to Houston.

[dukelifer]

Not being as good as the two best three point shooters in college basketball history doesn't mean you're not a good (or even great) 3 point shooter. Luke seems like a good outside shooter to me right now.

Well a great shooter needs to be above a certain percentage and should be able to hit them when open. It remains to be seen if he will get there although we have seen glimpses. I agree Luke is streaky good at this point.

[CDu]

Well a great shooter needs to be above a certain percentage and should be able to hit them when open. It remains to be seen if he will get there although we have seen glimpses. I agree Luke is streaky good at this point.

Again, I will point out that Kennard is a whopping 4 makes on the season from shooting 37.5%. The sample size is just too small to say he is not a good 3pt shooter. I think it may be more accurate that he is a good 3pt shooter who hasn't shot well yet. This is, again, based on a few pieces of info:

- he was a good shooter before this year
- he is an amazing free throw shooter
- the coaches have clearly given him the 3pt green light from day 1, indicating that he must have proven to them that he is a good shooter (they most certainly don't let not-good shooters take them 4 times a game)

Clearly the results haven't been as good as his reputation so far. But let's take those splits uh_no posted earlier and look at them differently. Kennard started his career shooting 2-18 (11.1%) from 3. Since then, he has shot 24-62 (38.7%). If he had merely hit 4 more of those first-semester 3s (so 6-18 in that stretch) he would be at 37.5% for the season and nobody would be questioning his shooting ability. But since that start, he has had an uphill battle the rest of the season. I still expect him to end the season above 37% from 3pt range in spite of that awful start.

[JPtheGame]

It's a safe presumption, lol. In this program, people take their senior leadership responsibilities very seriously. He's not going to abandon these guys. And, btw, Brandon Ingram deserves to have the best shot he can get at postseason success in his one year in Durham.

Stop trying to create some unbeatable superteam next year. It's not even possible with a single-elimination playoff format. Ask Kentucky.



This is indefensible, or at least I haven't seen anyone present a good argument for it. Duke's roster with Amile stacks up as well as any team's.

You're missing the point and It's not a safe presumption. It's just the presumption that fits best with your current view. I happen to see the situation much differently.
IMHO, Amile red shirting is best for everyone, most of all amile. Kyrie and Ryan Kelly (the Miami game aside) show us that it's not as easy as plugging someone in and expecting everything to improve. In fact, it usually gets worse for awhile until the whole team adjusts. Ingram has shown more since amile left which helps him, amile benefits from getting a whole year to show that leadership and development (doesn't happen from the bench), and as for the "super team" they would actually have more than 1 post player. Everyone wins.
Thanks for the tip on how serious leadership is to this team and individual seniors. I've only been following them for 35 yrs so it's possible I missed some of the less obvious details along the way.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Coach K talked about our not doing the little things needed to win. As one example, on the desperation beat the shot clock 3 that Notre Dame hit, Grayson's hands were all the way down. He assumed it would be a miss and didn't finish the play. Not to pick on Grayson. I imagine there could be a similar example for all of our guys. Fix some of those things and get Amile back, and maybe we can turn this around.

[Troublemaker]

You're missing the point and It's not a safe presumption. It's just the presumption that fits best with your current view. I happen to see the situation much differently.

It's a safe presumption. MP3 already let the cat out of the bag that Amile will be back, and anyone who's forked over ~$10/month for premium info knows the basic timeline already. This discussion is moot and an indulgence. (Not a big deal; those are sometimes my favorite kind of discussion.)


YKyrie and Ryan Kelly (the Miami game aside) show us that it's not as easy as plugging someone in and expecting everything to improve. In fact, it usually gets worse for awhile until the whole team adjusts.

Even an 80% effective Amile would be huge for this team. We have nothing behind Brandon and MP3 right now, unfortunately. Also, if Amile happens to return before March (unlike Ryan and Kyrie), he'll have more time to settle back in.


and as for the "super team" they would actually have more than 1 post player.

I'm comfortable rolling with So Jeter, Jr Obi, So Vrank at C and Fr Tatum and Fr DeLaurier at PF in support of Giles, who will probably play both. There's the possibility of another 2016 big man being added, too.

[akg4y]

UVA fan here. I just came here because misery loves company. What the heck is going on in the ACC?

At least you guys can hang your hats on missing your best/most important player. Just looking like a down year for us...

[JPtheGame]

I'm comfortable rolling with So Jeter, Jr Obi, So Vrank at C and Fr Tatum and Fr DeLaurier at PF in support of Giles, who will probably play both. There's the possibility of another 2016 big man being added, too.

I hope you're right on all fronts. I suppose the possibility exists that amile comes back and leads this team on an amazing run. I'm too Duke-focused and I obsess over the fact that our only notable win is Indiana (who is currently projected as an 11 seed) and I've been ignoring the fact that basically everyone is losing to everyone this year. Look at the top 10 this week alone plus Virginia. I suppose anything could happen.

[Troublemaker]

UVA fan here. I just came here because misery loves company. What the heck is going on in the ACC?

At least you guys can hang your hats on missing your best/most important player. Just looking like a down year for us...

It's okay, akg4y. Your "down year" will include making the NCAA tournament and wins over a possible 1 seed in Villanova and a spanking of a possible 2 seed in WVU. UVA has come a long way if that's your down year, and you have a great recruiting class coming in, including transfer Austin Nichols.

[Troublemaker]

I hope you're right on all fronts. I suppose the possibility exists that amile comes back and leads this team on an amazing run. I'm too Duke-focused and I obsess over the fact that our only notable win is Indiana (who is currently projected as an 11 seed) and I've been ignoring the fact that basically everyone is losing to everyone this year. Look at the top 10 this week alone plus Virginia. I suppose anything could happen.

That's the spirit, JP!

In a year with no great teams, we should take our best shot at it. We may end up in the Final Four.

[akg4y]

I hope you're right on all fronts. I suppose the possibility exists that amile comes back and leads this team on an amazing run. I'm too Duke-focused and I obsess over the fact that our only notable win is Indiana (who is currently projected as an 11 seed) and I've been ignoring the fact that basically everyone is losing to everyone this year. Look at the top 10 this week alone plus Virginia. I suppose anything could happen.


Thanks, yeah our concern is being able to win on the road... we seem to be able to beat anyone at home.

Reading this thread I cant believe how worried so many of you are. Once Jefferson comes back it will be an entirely different team. It may take a few games to gel but the games right now all have an asterisk on them without him. If anything the team might end up being better having learned to play without him.

[Troublemaker]

Thanks, yeah our concern is being able to win on the road... we seem to be able to beat anyone at home.

Reading this thread I cant believe how worried so many of you are. Once Jefferson comes back it will be an entirely different team. It may take a few games to gel but the games right now all have an asterisk on them without him. If anything the team might end up being better having learned to play without him.

The grass is always greener, haha.

Good luck tomorrow against Clemson. As you said, it's a weird year in the ACC. We both might need to root against Clemson in order to keep pace with them in the standings.

[superdave]

Coach might've found something down the stretch by putting Grayson on the PG. Coming into the season, I had always imagined that Matt would be on the wing shutting people down and if Derryck wasn't quite ready to be a starting PG, I thought it would be Grayson with his athleticism that would be out there guarding the point. I think Coach should try that combination again going forward. Of course, in our next game, we have Gbinije who is a big physical PG that Matt should handle. But, after that, for the little quick guys like Demetrius Jackson, I think it's better to use Grayson and of course Derryck when he's in.

In any case, definitely a disappointing loss. We just needed to defensive rebound much better, which Duke is capable of against this particular opponent. Because Marshall's wingspan is only 6'8", some balls that should be his when they hit his hands ended up getting tipped around in a crowd with a final resting place in the opponents' hands.

As others mentioned, Brandon needs to stay out of foul trouble so he can help with rim protection and on the boards.

Great game for Luke. Duke will be fine in the long run. We have a Big 3 in Brandon, Grayson, and Luke. I wasn't sure we were going to find a Big 3 going into the season. Those guys are studs that can carry us far but obviously we need one more big man, and he'll be returning from injury some time next month. We'll be okay. Just gotta survive, and it starts with a win against Cuse on Monday.

Would Matt Jones have done any better on Colson? I could see it..... not much else was working. Matt moves his feet and is pretty strong.

[kAzE]

Would Matt Jones have done any better on Colson? I could see it... not much else was working. Matt moves his feet and is pretty strong.

I don't think Matt would have bothered him much. At 6'5" 230 with a 7 foot wingspan, the only guy on our roster who could have covered Bonzie is out indefinitely with a foot fracture. If Brandon were a little older and stronger, maybe, but definitely not this version of Brandon.

[superdave]

before the utah state game, luke was 6/23, or about 26%
since the utah state game, luke is 22/56...or a smidgen short of 40%


kid started slow, but seems to have settled in. Nearly two months shooting at around 40%? i'll take it.

Ingram started slow too. It happens. I feel like if we can get 7-8 solid minutes out of Chase by tourney time, I'll be ecstatic about this class.

Luke is a more athletic, more aggressive version of Scheyer. I could not be happier with his season.

[JPtheGame]

Ingram started slow too. It happens. I feel like if we can get 7-8 solid minutes out of Chase by tourney time, I'll be ecstatic about this class.

Luke is a more athletic, more aggressive version of Scheyer. I could not be happier with his season.

As an Ohio native, I root the hardest for Luke. I actually played against Franklin in football, a short 20 years before luke came through!
He's created a lot of Duke fans in an area dominated by Ohio state and UK.
Btw, his parents wearing head to to Duke gear the other night is no small thing. His family is obsessed with UK bball and dads rec room looks like a mini UK hof.

[JPtheGame]

That's the spirit, JP!

In a year with no great teams, we should take our best shot at it. We may end up in the Final Four.

I'll support it on the grounds that it gives us our only legit shot at a 3peat!

[Indoor66]

As an Ohio native, I root the hardest for Luke. I actually played against Franklin in football, a short 20 years before luke came through!
He's created a lot of Duke fans in an area dominated by Ohio state and UK.
Btw, his parents wearing head to to Duke gear the other night is no small thing. His family is obsessed with UK bball and dads rec room looks like a mini UK hof.

It is amazing how your priorities in life can change with the decisions of your children. :D:cool: And what a positive change for the Kennard family. They looked quite pleased when I saw them on camera.

[superdave]

Two modest suggestions:

Fix the defensive rebounding, which is a matter of effort as much as talent. Tell Marshall to "go for broke" and use Obi and Chase liberally as substitutes.

Also, we need to reconstitute the Duke "end of first half" magic, which has been missing. Our last two games, we gave up most of a lead instead of extending it, and then we came out flat in the second half -- or maybe, the Tigers and Irish got pumped up by their momentum at the end of the first half.

Marshall at 22mpg >>>> Marshall at 36 mpg

I dont know about going for broke and leaning on Obi/Jeter. I think getting Obi two first half minutes and Jeter about 8 minutes overall is a good plan. Maybe Jeter would respond to a steadier role? In a zone defense? I am obviously not a coach, but there has to be some way to get Chase to be reliable. He gave us good minutes earlier this season. He can do it again. I suspect his confidence is shot. That needs to be addressed. But the more he can play, the lose bullfighter/ole defense Marshall will have to play.

[Troublemaker]

Would Matt Jones have done any better on Colson? I could see it... not much else was working. Matt moves his feet and is pretty strong.

I think Colson only scored one postup basket, the and-1 on Brandon. He did most of his damage on putbacks on offensive boards and by hitting his outside shots at a very high rate. I'm not sure Matt could keep him off the boards.

But, hypothetically, could he have success defending Colson in the post? It's not unthinkable. I've seen Matt get posted up by bigger guys, especially when he was the low guy in the 1-3-1 zone earlier in the season, and he does well. Usually he comes around and strips the big guy. He did exactly that against Blossomgame in the Clemson game, for example.

As I mentioned in another thread, I definitely would not use Marshall to double-team, though. It seems like opponents have been killing his double-team with an easy pass to his man for a score inside.

[uh_no]

He gave us good minutes earlier this season.

when? i think he's been very shaky all season.

[CDu]

when? i think he's been very shaky all season.

There have probably been blowouts against inferior teams in which Jeter had nice moments. But in games in which the quality of competition has been remotely repectable Jeter has been consistently not good, which suggests he is still not ready. Despite Coach K's early-season platitudes of "we have 8 starters", it is clear that Jeter is just well behind the other regulars.

[ncexnyc]

After reading the first 4 pages of posts on this thread I thought it was time to stop.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand all the negativity that is being directed towards this team.

We've lost two close games that went down to the wire against two solid ACC teams. In both of these games we were a play or two away from a win and when you factor in how thin we are and the youth of this team I really don't understand all of the long faces some of you are wearing.

The majority of people on this board have embraced the reality of one and done college hoops and the fact that Coach K. is buying into it. We need to understand that each crop of new players are different from the previous group of kids and that every year won't result in a title. The kids coming in have to hit the ground running and in some cases that isn't going to happen, we as fans will have to live with it and not get down on these youngsters.

My only question on what we've seen to date is does anyone believe that Jeter should be spelling Ingram at the 4 for a few minutes every game? Wasn't one of his strong suits supposed to be his mobility?

[jv001]

After reading the first 4 pages of posts on this thread I thought it was time to stop.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand all the negativity that is being directed towards this team.

We've lost two close games that went down to the wire against two solid ACC teams. In both of these games we were a play or two away from a win and when you factor in how thin we are and the youth of this team I really don't understand all of the long faces some of you are wearing.

The majority of people on this board have embraced the reality of one and done college hoops and the fact that Coach K. is buying into it. We need to understand that each crop of new players are different from the previous group of kids and that every year won't result in a title. The kids coming in have to hit the ground running and in some cases that isn't going to happen, we as fans will have to live with it and not get down on these youngsters.

My only question on what we've seen to date is does anyone believe that Jeter should be spelling Ingram at the 4 for a few minutes every game? Wasn't one of his strong suits supposed to be his mobility?

No. Have you seen his footwork? Mr. Jeter has a very long way to go. Obi has taken his place as the first big off the bench. I look for Vrank to get the next try. GoDuke!

[DUKIE V(A)]

After reading the first 4 pages of posts on this thread I thought it was time to stop.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand all the negativity that is being directed towards this team.

We've lost two close games that went down to the wire against two solid ACC teams. In both of these games we were a play or two away from a win and when you factor in how thin we are and the youth of this team I really don't understand all of the long faces some of you are wearing.

The majority of people on this board have embraced the reality of one and done college hoops and the fact that Coach K. is buying into it. We need to understand that each crop of new players are different from the previous group of kids and that every year won't result in a title. The kids coming in have to hit the ground running and in some cases that isn't going to happen, we as fans will have to live with it and not get down on these youngsters.

My only question on what we've seen to date is does anyone believe that Jeter should be spelling Ingram at the 4 for a few minutes every game? Wasn't one of his strong suits supposed to be his mobility?

Not at all ready to give up on the season and in fact still have high hopes. I think the two losses at home against teams we should handle is what has lots of people so upset. We are young, the teams we lost to the last three games are beginning to play better, and they have all been close but losing at home is very upsetting. Can't wait till Saturday. Go Duke!

[whereinthehellami]

On a lighter note, the Kennard 3 where he broke Pflueger's ankles, sat him down, and then calmly stuck the dagger in, was nothing short of awesome.