Cockrell helps Steelers win a wild one

[Olympic Fan]

Former Duke DB Ross Cockrell came up with a huge fumble recovery late in Saturday night's 18-16 Steeler playoff win over the Bengals.

The Steelers had blown a 15-0 lead after three quarters and trailed 16-15 with under two minutes left when backup QB Landry Jones threw what should have been a game-losing interception. But on the first play after the turnover, Cincinnati's Hill lost the ball going down and Cockrell came up with it. Ben Roethlisberger, who had earlier left the game with an injury (and to my disgust, as he was carted off the field, he was showed with garbage by the Cincinnati fans), returned and marched the Steelers to the Bengels 48 with 23 seconds left -- and no timeouts. On the next play, he throws an incompletion over the ball -- but the Bengals are flagged for a hit to the head of the defenseless receiver. That was was going to move the ball 15 yards to the 33 -- marginal field goal range with the rain pouring down.

But in the scrum of Cincinnati players protesting the targeting call (a good call IMO), Adam Jones got flagged for an unsportsmanlike penalty. That moved it 15 more yards to the 18 and that set up a short field goal that cost Cincinnati the game.

But it all started with Cockrell's play ...

[duke09hms]

Former Duke DB Ross Cockrell came up with a huge fumble recovery late in Saturday night's 18-16 Steeler playoff win over the Bengals.

The Steelers had blown a 15-0 lead after three quarters and trailed 16-15 with under two minutes left when backup QB Landry Jones threw what should have been a game-losing interception. But on the first play after the turnover, Cincinnati's Hill lost the ball going down and Cockrell came up with it. Ben Roethlisberger, who had earlier left the game with an injury (and to my disgust, as he was carted off the field, he was showed with garbage by the Cincinnati fans), returned and marched the Steelers to the Bengels 48 with 23 seconds left -- and no timeouts. On the next play, he throws an incompletion over the ball -- but the Bengals are flagged for a hit to the head of the defenseless receiver. That was was going to move the ball 15 yards to the 33 -- marginal field goal range with the rain pouring down.

But in the scrum of Cincinnati players protesting the targeting call (a good call IMO), Adam Jones got flagged for an unsportsmanlike penalty. That moved it 15 more yards to the 18 and that set up a short field goal that cost Cincinnati the game.

But it all started with Cockrell's play ...

Bungles wasted and gave away their first playoff victory since 1990 (LOLZ). On the 50 yd line w/ no TOs left and ~20 secs left in the game, Vontae Burfict with a dirty full-speed shoulder-to-helmet hit on defenseless Antonio Brown, arguably the best WR in the NFL this year. Oh jeebus was that ugly, guarantee Brown has a concussion from that hit. Ben's pass had sailed harmlessly by for an incomplete, and Burfict takes two steps and launches his shoulder at Brown's head. As a future doc, I felt it. It was bad.

Those 15 yds put us at 50 yd FG range. Then more stupid Bungle behavior, I don't even know what happened but Pacman Jones said/did something, bing another 15 yds. Suddenly we're at 35 yd FG to win the game. Kick, Stillers win 18-16.

Feel bad for AJ McCarron. Backup QB did great to lead a comeback in the 4th quarter, down 15-0. Dumb defenders gave it away.

Hope Brown is OK. Bring on the Broncos! HERE WE GO STEELERS

Edit: even better, former UNC RB Giovani Bernard, who regularly tormented us, lost a key fumble in the game hehe

[YmoBeThere]

Keep in mind that at least 1 Duke alum has been a Bengal for the last couple of years, Vincent Rey.

The oddity about the second penalty, the one on Jones, was that Joey Porter, linebackers coach for the Steelers was well on the field where he shouldn't have been. Remove him to his proper location and the whole situation would have been different. The hit by Burfict was inexcusable and unnecessary, he'd already missed the pass. Do nothing and your chances of winning are still pretty good. The Bengals have always taken players with questionable histories. This isn't the first time it has cost them.

[Bob Green]

Former Duke DB Ross Cockrell came up with a huge fumble recovery late in Saturday night's 18-16 Steeler playoff win over the Bengals.

It was a very entertaining game played in a pouring rainstorm. Congratulations to Ross Cockrell on a heads up play to led the Steelers to victory in the play-offs.


Edit: even better, former UNC RB Giovani Bernard, who regularly tormented us, lost a key fumble in the game hehe

Let's not celebrate the Bernard fumble because he was hurt on the play. Yes, it was a clean hard hit but nevertheless Bernard was most likely concussed on the play. The hit on Antonio Brown was vicious so I really hope and expect a big fine is levied.

[oldnavy]

It was a very entertaining game played in a pouring rainstorm. Congratulations to Ross Cockrell on a heads up play to led the Steelers to victory in the play-offs.



Let's not celebrate the Bernard fumble because he was hurt on the play. Yes, it was a clean hard hit but nevertheless Bernard was most likely concussed on the play. The hit on Antonio Brown was vicious so I really hope and expect a big fine is levied.

I agree that the game was entertaining, but I think the hit on Bernard was anything but "clean". It was textbook spearing and I fully expect that Shazzier(?) will be fined pretty heavily this Wednesday for leading with the crown of his helmet.

I enjoyed watching this game like I enjoy UNC-UK games... Unbelievable how stupid the Bengals two defensive stars were at the end of that game... simply unbelievable...

I expect that Berfict will be suspended in addition to being fined, my guess is 2 games to start next year. Maybe more...

[Turk]

Bungles wasted and gave away their first playoff victory since 1990 (LOLZ). On the 50 yd line w/ no TOs left and ~20 secs left in the game, Vontae Burfict with a dirty full-speed shoulder-to-helmet hit on defenseless Antonio Brown, arguably the best WR in the NFL this year. Oh jeebus was that ugly, guarantee Brown has a concussion from that hit. Ben's pass had sailed harmlessly by for an incomplete, and Burfict takes two steps and launches his shoulder at Brown's head. As a future doc, I felt it. It was bad.

Those 15 yds put us at 50 yd FG range. Then more stupid Bungle behavior, I don't even know what happened but Pacman Jones said/did something, bing another 15 yds. Suddenly we're at 35 yd FG to win the game. Kick, Stillers win 18-16.

Feel bad for AJ McCarron. Backup QB did great to lead a comeback in the 4th quarter, down 15-0. Dumb defenders gave it away.

Hope Brown is OK. Bring on the Broncos! HERE WE GO STEELERS

Edit: even better, former UNC RB Giovani Bernard, who regularly tormented us, lost a key fumble in the game hehe

Cockrell has come up with several big plays during the season; he seems to have a nose for the football as the nickel cornerback. The secondary is such a mess; I'm hoping he can get better and beat out one of the current starters. AJ Green spun them around in circles all night.

AB's touchdown catch was completely insane.

P.S. Love the "Bungles" reference from the late great Myron Cope. Yoi and double yoi, that was a crazy game....

[jimsumner]

Glad for Cockrell.

Feel for Vinnie Rey, who dropped a big INT early that enabled a Pitt FG.

But the overall environment of the game was very disturbing. The two teams have had issues earlier this season and year's past and should have been on their best behavior. Instead, we had 60 minutes worth of cheap shots, taunting, whining, ending with a series of incredibly selfish, immature, unprofessional and classless plays by Cincinnati that cost them a playoff game.

No rooting interest for me, other than wanting to see the Duke guys do well. But that game just bothered me.

I expect some Bengals to be looking for new jobs, including Marvin Lewis, who was charged with keeping his team under control and failed miserably.

[wavedukefan70s]

Was hoping for the victory for the bengals.they have been kind in selecting several players from the 10 mile radius where i live.stanford jennings ,carlos dunlap and a.j. green.with stanford and aj coming from my highschool. Dunlap from a school that was split from that school.
Just as a side note .dunlap,green,maxwell and quinn are from the same district.
Cincinnati needs to get a new coach. With the nfls best reciever how can you not be in contention year in and out.

[Kfanarmy]

I agree that the game was entertaining, but I think the hit on Bernard was anything but "clean". It was textbook spearing and I fully expect that Shazzier(?) will be fined pretty heavily this Wednesday for leading with the crown of his helmet.

Amen. This one sided officiating for the Steelers has to stop. IT is the reason their games tend to end this way. Official standing 6 feet from that crown of the helmet to the chin play made no call. Happens over and over with the Steelers. At some point officials need to be fired or an investigation needs to be undertaken. Understandable that Bengals players and fans were POd. Not because the call was wrong, but because it wasn't made going the other way, giving the ball to the Steelers.

[YmoBeThere]

I expect some Bengals to be looking for new jobs, including Marvin Lewis, who was charged with keeping his team under control and failed miserably.

I don't have much contact with the folks I used to know with inside info on the Bengals, but I can say that Marvin Lewis has survived 14 seasons with the Bengals and 6 prior playoff losses. While this loss may set a new low, I don't see why it will necessarily end his tenure. He is still under contract for next season. While that doesn't preclude his dismissal, after his long tenure there without any playoff success it should be an indicator, particularly of Mike Brown's opinion on the matter.

[BD80]

Amen. This one sided officiating for the Steelers has to stop. IT is the reason their games tend to end this way. Official standing 6 feet from that crown of the helmet to the chin play made no call. Happens over and over with the Steelers. At some point officials need to be fired or an investigation needs to be undertaken. Understandable that Bengals players and fans were POd. Not because the call was wrong, but because it wasn't made going the other way, giving the ball to the Steelers.

Yeah! And Antonio Brown was acting on that "controversial" call on Burfict. No really, Adam Jones was there. Not sure it was before Brown lost consciousness or when he came to, but Jones claims Brown was acting.

BTW did you see the pregame show today where they pulled a clip from the Bengals game last week against the Ravens? Completely away from the action, as the play is ending toward the opposite sideline, Burfict lays out an unsuspecting Tight End with a shoulder to helmet hit. Last week. The Bengals deserve nothing, no benefit of the doubt. They bring in thugs to try to compete with the physicality of the Steelers and the Ravens. This is just desserts.

Bengal fans throwing things at players (including genius Ohioans throwing things from the third tier that hit the Bengal fans in the first tier) and cheering the injuries to Roethlisberger and Brown, some even chanting they hope Brown was dead as he lay unconscious on the field. Lower than Philly fans. No wonder the airport won't be on the same side of the river, it can't stand the smell.

[Newton_14]

I agree that the game was entertaining, but I think the hit on Bernard was anything but "clean". It was textbook spearing and I fully expect that Shazzier(?) will be fined pretty heavily this Wednesday for leading with the crown of his helmet.

I enjoyed watching this game like I enjoy UNC-UK games... Unbelievable how stupid the Bengals two defensive stars were at the end of that game... simply unbelievable...

I expect that Berfict will be suspended in addition to being fined, my guess is 2 games to start next year. Maybe more...

Totally agree. Sorry but we've seen this movie for years now with the NFL and the Steelers. In the first half there was a great hit on a Pitt wide receiver, after a catch. Shoulder to chest and the ref immediately throws the flag. Then the Bernard hit (Defender lowers head, leads with crown of Helmet, and hits Bernard squarely in the facemask almost concussing him), and it gets called a great, legal hit and a fumble. lol.

And the end of the game was just comical. Yes the first flag for hit on Brown was a good call and stupid play by the Bengal. It was most certainly pay back for the hit on Bernard, just as the defender stated he was going to do, but dang dude, that was not the time. How ignorant. But, the second flag which basically handed the game to the Steelers was laughable. A Steeler coach is in the middle of the field jawing with Bengal players, and the ref flags the Bengals but not the Steelers. Call it what you want, but the ref inserted himself into the outcome of the game. It was stupid to throw that flag unless you were going to flag both sides and offset the penalties. Instead, the ref pretty much guaranteed the win for Pitt. Had they made the 50 yarder after Flag 1, then fine. I don't write any of this. Its on the fumble and the bonehead hit. But it did not go down like that.

[Reddevil]

Remember Sam Wyche saying, "You don't live in Cleveland!" to the crowd when things were thrown on the field back in the '80's? Well it happened again. Cleveland may be a struggling sports town, but I have not seen anything like that from their fans, and I miss the celebratory Milk Bones. Do they still do that?

Joey Porter was wrong to be where he was, but he seized the moment. He was a trash talker as a player, and he saw an opportunity. He KNEW Pac Man would bite. He baited him and it worked. You could tell by the look on his face when he got pushed as he looked at the official. That look of surprise had a smirk with it. I had no dog in the fight, but I know gamesmanship when I see it. Porter has always known how to get in the heads of immature players, and he took full advantage. Burflict and then Jones blew it for the entire team. Sad and laughable at the same time. I just hope Antonio Brown is going to be alright.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Keep in mind that at least 1 Duke alum has been a Bengal for the last couple of years, Vincent Rey.

The oddity about the second penalty, the one on Jones, was that Joey Porter, linebackers coach for the Steelers was well on the field where he shouldn't have been. Remove him to his proper location and the whole situation would have been different. The hit by Burfict was inexcusable and unnecessary, he'd already missed the pass. Do nothing and your chances of winning are still pretty good. The Bengals have always taken players with questionable histories. This isn't the first time it has cost them.

One of the few clean playing reputable Bungholes, Vinny Rey. I was so happy for him that he found a home in the NFL, and so bummed it was with Bungholes. HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!

[tux]

Totally agree. Sorry but we've seen this movie for years now with the NFL and the Steelers. In the first half there was a great hit on a Pitt wide receiver, after a catch. Shoulder to chest and the ref immediately throws the flag. Then the Bernard hit (Defender lowers head, leads with crown of Helmet, and hits Bernard squarely in the facemask almost concussing him), and it gets called a great, legal hit and a fumble. lol.

And the end of the game was just comical. Yes the first flag for hit on Brown was a good call and stupid play by the Bengal. It was most certainly pay back for the hit on Bernard, just as the defender stated he was going to do, but dang dude, that was not the time. How ignorant. But, the second flag which basically handed the game to the Steelers was laughable. A Steeler coach is in the middle of the field jawing with Bengal players, and the ref flags the Bengals but not the Steelers. Call it what you want, but the ref inserted himself into the outcome of the game. It was stupid to throw that flag unless you were going to flag both sides and offset the penalties. Instead, the ref pretty much guaranteed the win for Pitt. Had they made the 50 yarder after Flag 1, then fine. I don't write any of this. Its on the fumble and the bonehead hit. But it did not go down like that.

This is a highly biased synopsis of what happened. The flag on that first hit was not for the shoulder pad to chest but for the defender following the hit with a swing of his arm. Go back and look at the replay. Also, Porter was on the field with the other staff attending to Brown. The Bengal players, for some reason, congregated around the area as well... So, while Porter probably should have disengaged sooner, he was first bumped by one Bengal before Jones must have said something inappropriate. I'm sorry, but the Bengals deserve zero sympathy. Just really stupid decisions...

[BD80]

FYI:

Burfict "hit" list:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25445697/did-vontaze-burfict-intentionally-knee-ben-roethlisberger-in-shoulder

Includes the hit on Ravens TE Williams

[Reisen]

FYI:

Burfict "hit" list:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25445697/did-vontaze-burfict-intentionally-knee-ben-roethlisberger-in-shoulder

Includes the hit on Ravens TE Williams

Yep, he absolutely threw a knee into Ben while he was down. Our group saw that live, and it was clear on the replays (the broadcast had multiple angles not showing in the CBS article, which showed it without questions).

[wavedukefan70s]

The steelers have been fined atleast 6 times since 2010.i believe thats a league record.although it doesn't excuse the bengals shenanigans. They have a league rep of being dirty.ward and harrison.palamulou aswell.
Should the bengals have been called yes . the big question is why Pittsburgh wasnt.
Slaps on the wrist is why this continues. 4 game suspension and heavy fines need to be placed.

[MCFinARL]

I agree that the game was entertaining, but I think the hit on Bernard was anything but "clean". It was textbook spearing and I fully expect that Shazzier(?) will be fined pretty heavily this Wednesday for leading with the crown of his helmet.

I enjoyed watching this game like I enjoy UNC-UK games... Unbelievable how stupid the Bengals two defensive stars were at the end of that game... simply unbelievable...

I expect that Berfict will be suspended in addition to being fined, my guess is 2 games to start next year. Maybe more...


Amen. This one sided officiating for the Steelers has to stop. IT is the reason their games tend to end this way. Official standing 6 feet from that crown of the helmet to the chin play made no call. Happens over and over with the Steelers. At some point officials need to be fired or an investigation needs to be undertaken. Understandable that Bengals players and fans were POd. Not because the call was wrong, but because it wasn't made going the other way, giving the ball to the Steelers.


The steelers have been fined atleast 6 times since 2010.i believe thats a league record.although it doesn't excuse the bengals shenanigans. They have a league rep of being dirty.ward and harrison.palamulou aswell.
Should the bengals have been called yes . the big question is why Pittsburgh wasnt.
Slaps on the wrist is why this continues. 4 game suspension and heavy fines need to be placed.

Full disclosure: I am a Steelers fan. But I am going to try to be measured and as neutral as possible in my response.

Re the hit on Bernard, for what it is worth (I am not an expert), the commentators thought the key was that he had turned to run and was thus no longer a "defenseless receiver." Whether that should make a difference is a question for the rules committee, but apparently it does. And whether or not that should have been called, the Burfict hit on Brown was, to my eyes, clearly worse--Brown clearly still defined as defenseless receiver, hit, as noted by others already, clearly gratuitous because the ball was not going to be caught.

Re officiating favoring the Steelers, maybe--but I just want to point out the phenomenon of confirmation bias. It's the reason many basketball fans think all the calls against their own team are bad, and the calls against their opponents are righteous; it's also the reason, unfortunately, that teachers presented with students pre-established as "good" students tend to give them better grades than those pre-established as "poor students" for similar work. Could it be in play here? Just sayin.

I might argue, also, that the fact that the Steelers have been fined more than other teams could mean that they are dirtier--but it also tends to undercut the argument that the league is showing favoritism to them and letting them off the hook. You may think they deserve even more punishment, but if they are being punished more than other teams, perhaps that is an appropriate acknowledgement within the context of the relative level of punishments doled out by the league.

The AFC North, for better or worse, is a very rough division. I don't think it's just Pittsburgh (although I admit the Ravens are a little tamer now that Ray Rice has retired).

[BD80]

Burfict, 3 game suspension:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25446179/bengals-vontaze-burfict-suspended-for-first-three-games-of-2016-season

[wavedukefan70s]

Full disclosure: I am a Steelers fan. But I am going to try to be measured and as neutral as possible in my response.

Re the hit on Bernard, for what it is worth (I am not an expert), the commentators thought the key was that he had turned to run and was thus no longer a "defenseless receiver." Whether that should make a difference is a question for the rules committee, but apparently it does. And whether or not that should have been called, the Burfict hit on Brown was, to my eyes, clearly worse--Brown clearly still defined as defenseless receiver, hit, as noted by others already, clearly gratuitous because the ball was not going to be caught.

Re officiating favoring the Steelers, maybe--but I just want to point out the phenomenon of confirmation bias. It's the reason many basketball fans think all the calls against their own team are bad, and the calls against their opponents are righteous; it's also the reason, unfortunately, that teachers presented with students pre-established as "good" students tend to give them better grades than those pre-established as "poor students" for similar work. Could it be in play here? Just sayin.

I might argue, also, that the fact that the Steelers have been fined more than other teams could mean that they are dirtier--but it also tends to undercut the argument that the league is showing favoritism to them and letting them off the hook. You may think they deserve even more punishment, but if they are being punished more than other teams, perhaps that is an appropriate acknowledgement within the context of the relative level of punishments doled out by the league.

The AFC North, for better or worse, is a very rough division. I don't think it's just Pittsburgh (although I admit the Ravens are a little tamer now that Ray Rice has retired).

Ill agree on that.im a renowned Pittsburgh hater.so i may be askew in my view.this bama clemson game is getting interesting.

[MCFinARL]

Ill agree on that.im a renowned Pittsburgh hater.so i may be askew in my view.this bama clemson game is getting interesting.

Yes, it is. Maybe an ACC champ?

[wavedukefan70s]

Im not sure who will win.im not a clemson fan.but i want to see kids from around my state win.i have money on bama.hummm.

[jv001]

Full disclosure: I am a Steelers fan. But I am going to try to be measured and as neutral as possible in my response.

Re the hit on Bernard, for what it is worth (I am not an expert), the commentators thought the key was that he had turned to run and was thus no longer a "defenseless receiver." Whether that should make a difference is a question for the rules committee, but apparently it does. And whether or not that should have been called, the Burfict hit on Brown was, to my eyes, clearly worse--Brown clearly still defined as defenseless receiver, hit, as noted by others already, clearly gratuitous because the ball was not going to be caught.

Re officiating favoring the Steelers, maybe--but I just want to point out the phenomenon of confirmation bias. It's the reason many basketball fans think all the calls against their own team are bad, and the calls against their opponents are righteous; it's also the reason, unfortunately, that teachers presented with students pre-established as "good" students tend to give them better grades than those pre-established as "poor students" for similar work. Could it be in play here? Just sayin.

I might argue, also, that the fact that the Steelers have been fined more than other teams could mean that they are dirtier--but it also tends to undercut the argument that the league is showing favoritism to them and letting them off the hook. You may think they deserve even more punishment, but if they are being punished more than other teams, perhaps that is an appropriate acknowledgement within the context of the relative level of punishments doled out by the league.

The AFC North, for better or worse, is a very rough division. I don't think it's just Pittsburgh (although I admit the Ravens are a little tamer now that Ray Rice has retired).

If you thought the Steelers are a dirty team, you should have seen the Oakland Raiders back in Jack Tatum's day. His hit paralyzed a player. I believe his name is Darrel Stingley but that may be wrong. The Raiders were the dirtiest team I've ever seen play. GoDuke!

[Papa John]

This is a highly biased synopsis of what happened. The flag on that first hit was not for the shoulder pad to chest but for the defender following the hit with a swing of his arm. Go back and look at the replay. Also, Porter was on the field with the other staff attending to Brown. The Bengal players, for some reason, congregated around the area as well... So, while Porter probably should have disengaged sooner, he was first bumped by one Bengal before Jones must have said something inappropriate. I'm sorry, but the Bengals deserve zero sympathy. Just really stupid decisions...

The second flag was thrown for contact with the official... You can flap your jaws all you want, but get physical with the official and the laundry is coming out... I'm not sure why any objective observer would question the hit on Brown—he was clearly defenseless, the pass had sailed over his head, and the defender had ample time to change direction or pull up but chose not to do so... It's a violent sport and these teams in the AFC North play very aggressively toward one another, but the actions of Burfict and Jones yesterday were simply moronic, undisciplined, and likely cost Cincy the win...

[jv001]

The second flag was thrown for contact with the official... You can flap your jaws all you want, but get physical with the official and the laundry is coming out... I'm not sure why any objective observer would question the hit on Brown—he was clearly defenseless, the pass had sailed over his head, and the defender had ample time to change direction or pull up but chose not to do so... It's a violent sport and these teams in the AFC North play very aggressively toward one another, but the actions of Burfict and Jones yesterday were simply moronic, undisciplined, and likely cost Cincy the win...

Winner, winner chicken dinner. There's a big difference in playing hard and playing dirty. Then there is just plain dirty and stupid. See bolded part of post. GoDuke!

[oldnavy]

Full disclosure: I am a Steelers fan. But I am going to try to be measured and as neutral as possible in my response.

Re the hit on Bernard, for what it is worth (I am not an expert), the commentators thought the key was that he had turned to run and was thus no longer a "defenseless receiver." Whether that should make a difference is a question for the rules committee, but apparently it does. And whether or not that should have been called, the Burfict hit on Brown was, to my eyes, clearly worse--Brown clearly still defined as defenseless receiver, hit, as noted by others already, clearly gratuitous because the ball was not going to be caught.

Re officiating favoring the Steelers, maybe--but I just want to point out the phenomenon of confirmation bias. It's the reason many basketball fans think all the calls against their own team are bad, and the calls against their opponents are righteous; it's also the reason, unfortunately, that teachers presented with students pre-established as "good" students tend to give them better grades than those pre-established as "poor students" for similar work. Could it be in play here? Just sayin.

I might argue, also, that the fact that the Steelers have been fined more than other teams could mean that they are dirtier--but it also tends to undercut the argument that the league is showing favoritism to them and letting them off the hook. You may think they deserve even more punishment, but if they are being punished more than other teams, perhaps that is an appropriate acknowledgement within the context of the relative level of punishments doled out by the league.

The AFC North, for better or worse, is a very rough division. I don't think it's just Pittsburgh (although I admit the Ravens are a little tamer now that Ray Rice has retired).
Ray Rice wasn't an issue on the field. His issues happened off the field. Now, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, those guys were rough on the field and have retired.

The Shazzier hit.

The AFC North is a BRUTAL division. I follow it pretty close since I am a Ravens fan and have been for many years. The bias is real. I am biased towards the Ravens and feel like we get flagged for things that other teams don't. For example, that Shazzier hit on Bernard. Last year, Courtney Upshaw pancaked Big Ben on the first play from scrimmage. I thought it was the perfect tackle, he led with his facemask and hit him squarely in the chest. That hit was flagged for unnecessary roughness. It was MUCH cleaner than the Shazzier hit on Bernard and I am convinced that if Upshaw had hit Bernard like Shazzier did, the flags would have flown (clearly my bias). I didn't agree with the Upshaw call then, and I still think it was clean, but it was called. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xuvLwokg1I

Now, I listened to NFL radio yesterday at work so I am an expert :rolleyes:, and I am still shaking my head at the no call. Most of the discussion revolved around the "defenseless player" rule. They (officials) said that Geo had become a runner and therefore wasn't defenseless. Well, OK... but that is a 50/50 call at best. To me it wasn't about defenseless of not, but about spearing. Evidently, there are two sets of "rules" in the NFL, one for receivers and QB's and one for everyone else regarding the "spearing" rule. According to several referee's(r) who comment on the officiating in the NFL, refs usually let spearing go if it happens to a running back unless the RB is on the ground. WTH?? This was news to me. The rule is clear, yet the enforcement is selective. The majority (pretty sure they ALL agreed) of the hosts and guests which include former players and a couple of long time NFL execs and former coaches, felt that the no call on the Bernard hit was outrageous and should have been flagged. To me and this was echoed by most if not all of the talking heads, Shazzier's hit was the very definition of what the NFL says it is trying to clean up. So I am a little surprised that anyone associated with the NFL is excusing the hit in anyway. Now, it just could be that the officiating experts were providing cover for the refs, so who knows.

I still think that Shazzier will be fined tomorrow for the hit. He very clearly lowered his head before contact and led with the crown of his helmet. That he dropped his head and led with the crown of his helmet isn't being debated by anyone as far as I know. The issue seems to be, is that allowed on a running back or not, which I find very confusing. One of many rule definitions that will be dealt with in the off season.

[Pghdukie]

The Steelers/Raiders games of the 70's were some of the most brutal games ever.

[Kfanarmy]

One of the few clean playing reputable Bungholes, Vinny Rey. I was so happy for him that he found a home in the NFL, and so bummed it was with Bungholes. HERE WE GO STEELERS, HERE WE GO!

This attitude is why the Steelers are and will continue to be a dirty football team. This is how a fanatic supporter of the Steelers talks about the competition. Stand there and yell "Way to go Paula!" without any second thought of your crassness and the Steeler's dirty play.

[Kfanarmy]

Now, I listened to NFL radio yesterday at work so I am an expert :rolleyes:, and I am still shaking my head at the no call. Most of the discussion revolved around the "defenseless player" rule. They (officials) said that Geo had become a runner and therefore wasn't defenseless. Well, OK... but that is a 50/50 call at best. To me it wasn't about defenseless of not, but about spearing. Evidently, there are two sets of "rules" in the NFL, one for receivers and QB's and one for everyone else regarding the "spearing" rule. According to several referee's(r) who comment on the officiating in the NFL, refs usually let spearing go if it happens to a running back unless the RB is on the ground. WTH?? This was news to me. The rule is clear, yet the enforcement is selective. The majority (pretty sure they ALL agreed) of the hosts and guests which include former players and a couple of long time NFL execs and former coaches, felt that the no call on the Bernard hit was outrageous and should have been flagged. To me and this was echoed by most if not all of the talking heads, Shazzier's hit was the very definition of what the NFL says it is trying to clean up. So I am a little surprised that anyone associated with the NFL is excusing the hit in anyway. Now, it just could be that the officiating experts were providing cover for the refs, so who knows.

Not the first time the talking heads were sent out with talking points from the NFL cash cow. In real time, I doubt the official Knew it was a RB rather than a Receiver catching the ball. Bernard catches it, spins and gets hit in the jaw with Shazier's helmet. I really don't buy the whole, he wasn' defenseless bit. As I recall he had just spun to head down field. The best review of the out of control situation I can find is in this FAQ by Kevin Siefert, NFL nation:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/195380/faq-a-chaotic-fourth-quarter-of-calls-in-steelers-bengals

In any case, across multiple games this season, I've seen the Steelers get away this stuff time and again while the opponent is called. I suspect what the official saw that mitigated the penalty on Shazier was a Steeler's uniform.

[DukieInKansas]

The Steelers/Raiders games of the 70's were some of the most brutal games ever.

I'm still made at George Atkinson for injuring Lynn Swann so that I didn't get to see him play in Houston that year. Of course, I'm still a bit upset that Lynn Swann wouldn't let me keep his Super Bowl ring since he was getting another one - but it was fun to try it on. :D

[BD80]

This attitude is why the Steelers are and will continue to be a dirty football team. This is how a fanatic supporter of the Steelers talks about the competition. Stand there and yell "Way to go Paula!" without any second thought of your crassness and the Steeler's dirty play.

Whoa. Never been to a game in Pittsburgh, have you? Fans that start tasteless cheers are quickly put in place by other fans, opposing players are applauded when they rise from an injury, You don't find fans throwing crap at opposing players. (In all fairness, my years of attendance have been eclipsed by my years away - but watching games on TV bolsters my opinions)

Steeler games are better policed by home fans than Cameron, which I would suggest does a pretty good job.

Pittsburgh may have blue collar attitude, but its fans have far more class than was demonstrated in the Queen City.

[MCFinARL]

If you thought the Steelers are a dirty team, you should have seen the Oakland Raiders back in Jack Tatum's day. His hit paralyzed a player. I believe his name is Darrel Stingley but that may be wrong. The Raiders were the dirtiest team I've ever seen play. GoDuke!

Oh, I did see those Oakland Raiders, and I agree--they were a brutal team. You are right, it was Darryl Stingley--that was a terrible one, remember seeing it on TV.


Ray Rice wasn't an issue on the field. His issues happened off the field. Now, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, those guys were rough on the field and have retired.

The Shazzier hit.


Now, I listened to NFL radio yesterday at work so I am an expert :rolleyes:, and I am still shaking my head at the no call. Most of the discussion revolved around the "defenseless player" rule. They (officials) said that Geo had become a runner and therefore wasn't defenseless. Well, OK... but that is a 50/50 call at best. To me it wasn't about defenseless of not, but about spearing. Evidently, there are two sets of "rules" in the NFL, one for receivers and QB's and one for everyone else regarding the "spearing" rule. According to several referee's(r) who comment on the officiating in the NFL, refs usually let spearing go if it happens to a running back unless the RB is on the ground. WTH?? This was news to me. The rule is clear, yet the enforcement is selective. The majority (pretty sure they ALL agreed) of the hosts and guests which include former players and a couple of long time NFL execs and former coaches, felt that the no call on the Bernard hit was outrageous and should have been flagged. To me and this was echoed by most if not all of the talking heads, Shazzier's hit was the very definition of what the NFL says it is trying to clean up. So I am a little surprised that anyone associated with the NFL is excusing the hit in anyway. Now, it just could be that the officiating experts were providing cover for the refs, so who knows.

I still think that Shazzier will be fined tomorrow for the hit. He very clearly lowered his head before contact and led with the crown of his helmet. That he dropped his head and led with the crown of his helmet isn't being debated by anyone as far as I know. The issue seems to be, is that allowed on a running back or not, which I find very confusing. One of many rule definitions that will be dealt with in the off season.

You are so right, of course--a problem with posting when tired; I meant to say Ray Lewis.

Re the rule, I agree the way it is being enforced is at best confusing--and I agree that it looked pretty clearly like Shazier lowered his head before contact. In partial defense (maybe lame defense) of the refs, it's possible that is much clearer on replay than it was on the field, and might have depended on where the officials were standing--and a non-call is not reviewable, I believe. You may well be right that Shazier will be fined--which is the one option the league has for "correcting" non-calls.


Not the first time the talking heads were sent out with talking points from the NFL cash cow. In real time, I doubt the official Knew it was a RB rather than a Receiver catching the ball. Bernard catches it, spins and gets hit in the jaw with Shazier's helmet. I really don't buy the whole, he wasn' defenseless bit. As I recall he had just spun to head down field. The best review of the out of control situation I can find is in this FAQ by Kevin Siefert, NFL nation:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/195380/faq-a-chaotic-fourth-quarter-of-calls-in-steelers-bengals

In any case, across multiple games this season, I've seen the Steelers get away this stuff time and again while the opponent is called. I suspect what the official saw that mitigated the penalty on Shazier was a Steeler's uniform.

Conceding that the Shazier hit probably should have been penalized, what I don't buy is the idea that the only reason it wasn't was because he is a Steeler.

It's not uncommon, I suspect, for officials to be unconsciously influenced by the star power (i.e. market value) of certain players, which could, I suppose, explain why they were much quicker to call a hit on Antonio Brown, who is all that and a bag of chips these days, than one on Giovanni Bernard. (A similar effect happens in the NBA, where it seems to be much easier for journeymen to foul stars than vice versa.) Obviously, that shouldn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does.

But I can't think why officials would intentionally, or even unconsciously, favor the Steelers as a whole team over opponents over the course of one or more seasons--while they are a "name" team because of their past (they have some pretty significant weaknesses in the present), and they have some devoted fans, Pittsburgh is a very small market.

If I'm missing some point that would explain why the officials/league would conspire to let one team consistently violate the rules, I would genuinely like to hear it. Otherwise, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

[oldnavy]

Not the first time the talking heads were sent out with talking points from the NFL cash cow. In real time, I doubt the official Knew it was a RB rather than a Receiver catching the ball. Bernard catches it, spins and gets hit in the jaw with Shazier's helmet. I really don't buy the whole, he wasn' defenseless bit. As I recall he had just spun to head down field. The best review of the out of control situation I can find is in this FAQ by Kevin Siefert, NFL nation:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/195380/faq-a-chaotic-fourth-quarter-of-calls-in-steelers-bengals

In any case, across multiple games this season, I've seen the Steelers get away this stuff time and again while the opponent is called. I suspect what the official saw that mitigated the penalty on Shazier was a Steeler's uniform.

Except that they all were not on the same script... so I doubt "talking points" were used in this case. The officials were hung up on the defenseless player interpretation, while the other folks, including myself were left wondering about "spearing" and why it wasn't called. Most of the talk was negative, not positive for the NFL.

One of my points is the inconsistency of the NFL which goes against any collusion and issuance of talking points. I don't think the NFL has it all together as far as the rules go.. for heaven's sake they still aren't sure of what a catch is!

My very biased view on the Ravens is that they are flagged more often than other teams for similar infractions. I don't really feel that other teams are "protected" per se, because it I see bad calls each week regardless of who we play... again I am biased, but there have been several VERY bad or missed calls this past year on the Ravens. I am sure every fan of every team probably feels the same way with regards to their team.

I emphatically believe certain players ARE protected more than others... "coughbradycough".... :p

[oldnavy]

Burfict is suspended for first 3 games of next season per NFL.com.

Haven't seen anything about fines on players or coaches yet...

[BD80]

... My very biased view on the Ravens is that they are flagged more often than other teams for similar infractions. I don't really feel that other teams are "protected" per se, because it I see bad calls each week regardless of who we play... again I am biased, but there have been several VERY bad or missed calls this past year on the Ravens. I am sure every fan of every team probably feels the same way with regards to their team. ...

As a Steeler fan who dislikes but generally respects the Ravens (REALLY disliked Lewis, Suggs and Reed - NO respect for Lewis) and detests the smarmy Harbaughs (at least John is better than Jim) I agree that the Ravens got totally hosed with calls this year. I was hoping the Ravens would win a few more games so they wouldn't have such a good draft pick (but did the wins have to come against the Steelers?).

[Kfanarmy]

Whoa. Never been to a game in Pittsburgh, have you? Fans that start tasteless cheers are quickly put in place by other fans, opposing players are applauded when they rise from an injury, You don't find fans throwing crap at opposing players. (In all fairness, my years of attendance have been eclipsed by my years away - but watching games on TV bolsters my opinions)

Steeler games are better policed by home fans than Cameron, which I would suggest does a pretty good job.

Pittsburgh may have blue collar attitude, but its fans have far more class than was demonstrated in the Queen City.

Duke Blue Brewcrew just called them Bungholes twice on this Duke forum, which is pretty intolerant of name calling. I can imagine what he'd be like in a stadium surrounded by other Steeler fans. Though I have not been in that stadium, so will concede to your experience as to the general nature of Steeler's fans.

[oldnavy]

As a Steeler fan who dislikes but generally respects the Ravens (REALLY disliked Lewis, Suggs and Reed - NO respect for Lewis) and detests the smarmy Harbaughs (at least John is better than Jim) I agree that the Ravens got totally hosed with calls this year. I was hoping the Ravens would win a few more games so they wouldn't have such a good draft pick (but did the wins have to come against the Steelers?).

This is what makes if fun... good rivalries and banter. I don't have a dislike for the Steelers like MOST Ravens fans... I don't particularly like Jim Harbaugh either, but John is ok in my book. Funny, but I think the Steeler's coaching staff is a little shaky at times. I think it's pretty clear that Porter wasn't on the field to help with Brown, Munchak was a little out of line (although not a big deal IMO).... and the Ravens have a funny animated code of conduct clip they show at home games, where when they say you have to stay off the field, a character that looks a lot like Mike Tomlin ventures onto the field in front of a Raven running down the sideline... not a subtle shot to what happened a couple of years back with Jacoby Jones... pretty good stuff!

I understand the Ray Lewis comments I hear (I used to feel the same), but I have grown to respect him a lot over the years. He screwed up when he was younger (although, it never was as bad as reported... the truth was a lot less sexy than what was reported on... we can relate to that as Duke fans can't we!), BUT he took that mistake learned form it and has done a TON of good works since then. He uses his past experiences to help young black men and that is about all you can ask from someone who has made a mistake, repent, grow and help...

I have a ton, a TON of respect for guys like Ray Lewis, who screw up but take their mistakes and turn them into positives. Ray is a good man today, he wasn't always a good man, but he is now, and for that I have much respect.

I love the NFL, but that Steelers/Bengals game was not a good game for the NFL. That has to be cleaned up, and I would say the same if it was the Skins and Cowboys....

[Olympic Fan]

Pretty interesting column about the game from a Pittsburgh site (with some nice embedded GIFs):

http://dkpittsburghsports.com/FREE/2016/01/10/column-8/

I wouldn't read it if I was a Cincinnati fan.

[oldnavy]

Pretty interesting column about the game from a Pittsburgh site (with some nice embedded GIFs):

http://dkpittsburghsports.com/FREE/2016/01/10/column-8/

I wouldn't read it if I was a Cincinnati fan.

Funny, if you go to a Cinny site and read about it, you will think that they are talking about a totally different game.

I saw it in real time, and I switched from hoping that Cincinnati would win to being happy they lost...

Burfict should be on his last chance with this 3 game suspension. He is a dangerous man who will end up hurting someone really badly if he doesn't gain control. Then what, criminal charges?? Law suit?? Both?? It's not like he is a first time offender. These idiots have to be weeded out of the NFL no matter what team they are on.

[duke09hms]

Pretty interesting column about the game from a Pittsburgh site (with some nice embedded GIFs):

http://dkpittsburghsports.com/FREE/2016/01/10/column-8/

I wouldn't read it if I was a Cincinnati fan.

God I'm Pittsburgh-born and bred, but wow is that what we sound like after Duke wins? Home cooking reporting at its best lol. I did have a thought that Shazier's hit on Bernard might've been targeting, but all the announcers were unanimous that Bernard was now a runner and not a defenseless receiver. Quite obvious he took at least 2-3 steps after the reception and before the hit, so I don't know about that.

But sheesh I can't get over that hit on Brown ... murderous intent there by Burfict. 3 games is WAY too little. You were going to suspend Brady FOUR games for allegedly deflating balls and suspend repeat offender Burfict THREE for THAT hit??? The ball is incomplete and 5 yards away, and the guy continues his run for a few beats, plants and launches himself full speed at Brown's head.

[MCFinARL]

This is what makes if fun... good rivalries and banter. I don't have a dislike for the Steelers like MOST Ravens fans... I don't particularly like Jim Harbaugh either, but John is ok in my book. Funny, but I think the Steeler's coaching staff is a little shaky at times. I think it's pretty clear that Porter wasn't on the field to help with Brown, Munchak was a little out of line (although not a big deal IMO)... and the Ravens have a funny animated code of conduct clip they show at home games, where when they say you have to stay off the field, a character that looks a lot like Mike Tomlin ventures onto the field in front of a Raven running down the sideline... not a subtle shot to what happened a couple of years back with Jacoby Jones... pretty good stuff!

I understand the Ray Lewis comments I hear (I used to feel the same), but I have grown to respect him a lot over the years. He screwed up when he was younger (although, it never was as bad as reported... the truth was a lot less sexy than what was reported on... we can relate to that as Duke fans can't we!), BUT he took that mistake learned form it and has done a TON of good works since then. He uses his past experiences to help young black men and that is about all you can ask from someone who has made a mistake, repent, grow and help...

I have a ton, a TON of respect for guys like Ray Lewis, who screw up but take their mistakes and turn them into positives. Ray is a good man today, he wasn't always a good man, but he is now, and for that I have much respect.

I love the NFL, but that Steelers/Bengals game was not a good game for the NFL. That has to be cleaned up, and I would say the same if it was the Skins and Cowboys...

Re Steelers coaches, that is fair. To me the oddest part was penalizing Munchak (who appeared to react instinctively after getting tangled up) and not only not penalizing Porter (who apparently was where he clearly was not supposed to be for no good reason) but penalizing the player he may have goaded into acting up. That Tomlin incident is one, as a Steeler fan, I'd rather try to forget.

You make a good point about Ray Lewis, and the only part that rubs me the wrong way is that it is so much easier to fix your life up after a mistake like that if you are a talented professional athlete than if you are an average Joe--but that is more a problem of how we treat the average Joes than one of how we respond to Lewis.

Completely agree the game was not good for the NFL. Increasingly, professional football is a guilty pleasure for me; given the toll the sport takes on the athletes' bodies and, increasingly, their brains, I feel a little like a spectator in the Coliseum watching gladiators. Plays intended to injure and dust-ups on the field don't help.

[oldnavy]

Re Steelers coaches, that is fair. To me the oddest part was penalizing Munchak (who appeared to react instinctively after getting tangled up) and not only not penalizing Porter (who apparently was where he clearly was not supposed to be for no good reason) but penalizing the player he may have goaded into acting up. That Tomlin incident is one, as a Steeler fan, I'd rather try to forget.

You make a good point about Ray Lewis, and the only part that rubs me the wrong way is that it is so much easier to fix your life up after a mistake like that if you are a talented professional athlete than if you are an average Joe--but that is more a problem of how we treat the average Joes than one of how we respond to Lewis.

Completely agree the game was not good for the NFL. Increasingly, professional football is a guilty pleasure for me; given the toll the sport takes on the athletes' bodies and, increasingly, their brains, I feel a little like a spectator in the Coliseum watching gladiators. Plays intended to injure and dust-ups on the field don't help.

Agree with your comments about Lewis. He did have the resources to make amends, but he wasn't born into great circumstances with regard to family or finances. He did have a mother who he loved and didn't want to disappoint, so he worked hard to get crazy strong and good at football. He slipped, saw his errors and the effect it had on those he loved and he changed. Good story! I think football is an amazing game.

Hopefully the game can be preserved and it can be made much safer with advancements in equipment and rules.

As much as I love basketball, the game of basketball is basically simple and without a lot of strategy (fun to watch and play, but not terribly complex), whereas football is more like a fast action chess game with all the different strategies and moves to counter moves that occur. Loved playing football as well... I would hate to see it go away because the issues of player's safety couldn't be resolved.

[BD80]

Re Steelers coaches, that is fair. To me the oddest part was penalizing Munchak (who appeared to react instinctively after getting tangled up) and not only not penalizing Porter (who apparently was where he clearly was not supposed to be for no good reason) but penalizing the player he may have goaded into acting up. ...

People make such a big deal about Porter being on the field, but coaches from both teams were continuously on the field when a player was down. It was generally - at least implicitly - approved by the officials as a way of keeping players apart during the breaks - this is where skirmishes had broken out in the most recent game.

Porter was behind Brown as he was being helped off the field. Burfict tries to butt in, ostensibly to offer some encouragement or apology (nobody has disclosed what he said) and a smack on Brown's shoulder pad. It was likely a sportsmanlike gesture, but with Burfict's unstable attitude and the level of contentiousness in the game, there is no way he should have been allowed near Brown. The Bengals had coaches and players on the field, and nobody got control of Burfict. As the trainer helping Brown off the field tried to shoo Burfict away, another Bengal player bumped into Porter, who at that point was ostensibly escorting the hurt player off of the field.

Porter turns and mouths off, with 4 or 5 Bengals in front of him. The ref steps in and says: "That's it, break it up" and then Packman lunges at Porter, making contact with the ref who is spreading his arms to keep the players apart. Easy call. Incredibly stupid by Jones. Without contacting the ref, there is no call.

Porter being on the field was hardly the issue. If they fine him, I hope they fine every other coach that went on the field, so it becomes apparent that it was no big deal.

[oldnavy]

People make such a big deal about Porter being on the field, but coaches from both teams were continuously on the field when a player was down. It was generally - at least implicitly - approved by the officials as a way of keeping players apart during the breaks - this is where skirmishes had broken out in the most recent game.

Porter was behind Brown as he was being helped off the field. Burfict tries to butt in, ostensibly to offer some encouragement or apology (nobody has disclosed what he said) and a smack on Brown's shoulder pad. It was likely a sportsmanlike gesture, but with Burfict's unstable attitude and the level of contentiousness in the game, there is no way he should have been allowed near Brown. The Bengals had coaches and players on the field, and nobody got control of Burfict. As the trainer helping Brown off the field tried to shoo Burfict away, another Bengal player bumped into Porter, who at that point was ostensibly escorting the hurt player off of the field.

Porter turns and mouths off, with 4 or 5 Bengals in front of him. The ref steps in and says: "That's it, break it up" and then Packman lunges at Porter, making contact with the ref who is spreading his arms to keep the players apart. Easy call. Incredibly stupid by Jones. Without contacting the ref, there is no call.

Porter being on the field was hardly the issue. If they fine him, I hope they fine every other coach that went on the field, so it becomes apparent that it was no big deal.

I agree to a point, but I don't really think Porter is as innocent as you seem to believe. Sure the real dummy is Jones who made a really REALLY STUPID mistake, but I don't think Porter was out there to assist Brown for a minute. Porter played for Pittsburgh and is as wrapped up in the rivalry as anyone... we will never know for sure, but my gut tells me he was out there to jaw with the Bengals... he may not be the only one, but he is the one in the middle of this issue. I do agree that if he is fined they all need to be fined, but I am not sure Porter will be fined... it's not like the refs asked him to leave and he refused... the refs gave him implied consent if you will.

[oldnavy]

I am hearing smart NFL football people saying that the NFL does NOT have a spearing rule... but this is straight out of the NFL rook book:

Article 8. Initiating Contact with the Crown of the Helmet

It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.

So how can this hit, not be leading with the crown? It is the definition of dropping the head and using the helmet as a weapon...
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/01/shazier-hit-on-bernard-still-deemed-legal-by-several-analysts/

I am flabbergasted that anyone being paid to speak about the NFL would not know this... just goes to say that you can't believe everything you hear.

Not picking on the Steelers at this point, but what am I missing here? This is a penalty at every level of football, so how can the experts be interpreting this as not a foul???

[Bob Green]

...so how can the experts be interpreting this as not a foul???

It is pretty clear [to me] the experts view it as incidental contact.


Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.

I'm not saying the experts are right and you are wrong. I'm not saying you are right and the experts are wrong. I am saying the rule you quoted includes a built in loop hole making interpretation very subjective.

My initial reaction was the hit was hard but clean. Nothing I have seen, heard or read the past couple of days has changed my opinion.

[oldnavy]

It is pretty clear [to me] the experts view it as incidental contact.



I'm not saying the experts are right and you are wrong. I'm not saying you are right and the experts are wrong. I am saying the rule you quoted includes a built in loop hole making interpretation very subjective.

My initial reaction was the hit was hard but clean. Nothing I have seen, heard or read the past couple of days has changed my opinion.

This is a fascinating study in how one event can be viewed by two people and the two people have totally opposite impressions. In fact, I had to go look up incidental to make sure I really knew what it meant after reading your post. Here is the MW definition:

1 a : being likely to ensue as a chance or minor consequence <social obligations incidental to the job>
b : minor 1

2 : occurring merely by chance or without intention or calculation

I can't make what I saw fit this definition of incidental... oh well, it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything huh?

[Indoor66]

This is a fascinating study in how one event can be viewed by two people and the two people have totally opposite impressions. In fact, I had to go look up incidental to make sure I really knew what it meant after reading your post. Here is the MW definition:

1 a : being likely to ensue as a chance or minor consequence <social obligations incidental to the job>
b : minor 1

2 : occurring merely by chance or without intention or calculation

I can't make what I saw fit this definition of incidental... oh well, it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything huh?

Except that you and I are always right (sometimes I'm not so sure about you)! :p:rolleyes::cool:

What does KenPom say?

[DukieInKansas]

Except that you and I are always right (sometimes I'm not so sure about you)! :p:rolleyes::cool:

What does KenPom say?

Can we measure it in cinder blocks?

[oldnavy]

Can we measure it in cinder blocks?

Yes. The force that Shazier hit Bernard with was equal to dropping 4 cinder blocks a distance of 6 feet onto his head!! Knockout punch!

[Bob Green]

This is a fascinating study in how one event can be viewed by two people and the two people have totally opposite impressions.

A few years back, I can't remember exactly how many, I watched a TV show, on the The Learning Channel or Discovery Channel or one of those type channels, about how eyewitnesses to crimes are notoriously unreliable. What people report seeing and what actually happened can be night and day apart. Like you say, fascinating.

[Indoor66]

A few years back, I can't remember exactly how many, I watched a TV show, on the The Learning Channel or Discovery Channel or one of those type channels, about how eyewitnesses to crimes are notoriously unreliable. What people report seeing and what actually happened can be night and day apart. Like you say, fascinating.

If you ever worked around law enforcement people or in the criminal justice arena you quickly realize the unreliability of eyewitness accounts of events. It can be almost humorous.

[rasputin]

If you ever worked around law enforcement people or in the criminal justice arena you quickly realize the unreliability of eyewitness accounts of events. It can be almost humorous.

Yet, people go to jail all the time based on those accounts.

[Indoor66]

Yet, people go to jail all the time based on those accounts.

Mostly on more objective evidence. Defense lawyers can do a number on eyewitnesses; but if there is other evidence, the eyewitnesses can be another element in the overall picture.

[jimsumner]

A few years back, I can't remember exactly how many, I watched a TV show, on the The Learning Channel or Discovery Channel or one of those type channels, about how eyewitnesses to crimes are notoriously unreliable. What people report seeing and what actually happened can be night and day apart. Like you say, fascinating.

Are you sure that's what you saw? :)