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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 82, Va Tech 58 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-09-2016, 02:07 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Les Grossman
01-09-2016, 02:09 PM
clap clap clap clap clap

DukieInBrasil
01-09-2016, 02:09 PM
Nice lopsided win, but it was a tale of 2 halves. Very efficient O in the 1st half. It looked like the team didn't care about playing in the 2nd half.
MP3 looks like he's playing in a different universe now than even earlier this year. I'd like to point out that MP3 only needs to score 7 more points to surpass his career total in points thru his 1st 3 years at Duke. He needs 53 more rebounds to surpass his career total prior to this year. Dude is playing on a different level than he ever has before at Duke.

dudog84
01-09-2016, 02:20 PM
I've thought this for some time, and there may be some homerism in it, but is there a better announcer working college basketball than Mike Gminski? Doesn't have to be talking all the time, never seems to be talking down to his audience, not hyperbolic, sharp insight, etc.

May be the smartest basketball player ever at Duke. Didn't he arrive at Duke as a 16-year-old?

Tripping William
01-09-2016, 02:20 PM
This team can really, really score.

weezie
01-09-2016, 02:26 PM
I've thought this for some time, and there may be some homerism in it, but is there a better announcer working college basketball than Mike Gminski? Doesn't have to be talking all the time, never seems to be talking down to his audience, not hyperbolic, sharp insight, etc....

Right on dudog, GMan is superb.

Saratoga2
01-09-2016, 02:33 PM
Whatever happened with Marshall, it should be bottled. Yes the game plan is favorable for him and yes he is miles more aggressive out there but he also hit all but one of his many free throws. I have never seen a player make this kind of jump in his play before this. Defense was even good. Congratulations.

We have an exceptionally gifted an versatile offense not even counting Marshall. Brandon is just a great all around player. Grayson just is hard to stop and his motor is always running near the red line on both ends of the floor. Luke is more controlled. He has really good size and has excellent body control. He has many ways to score (not sure if he got 11 or he got the last tip in for 13). I like his defense as he moves his feet well and stays in front and switches well. Matt is generally steady out there and you tend not to notice him but in the end he has double figures and plays really good defense.

Our weak spot today seemed to be at point, where coach K gave Derryck a lot of minutes even though he made some bad decisions and was a non factor offensively. Even Matt seemed a little careless at the point but we can afford those problems when we dominate so. Coach K got Chase in quite a bit so that gave him a little more game experience. I notice he is showing more muscular definition so the weight room is paying off.

Great overall game and win #1032 for coach K. At this rate he will hit 1100+, an unheard of number, probably never to be matched.

Dukehky
01-09-2016, 02:40 PM
Whatever happened with Marshall, it should be bottled. Yes the game plan is favorable for him and yes he is miles more aggressive out there but he also hit all but one of his many free throws. I have never seen a player make this kind of jump in his play before this. Defense was even good. Congratulations.

We have an exceptionally gifted an versatile offense not even counting Marshall. Brandon is just a great all around player. Grayson just is hard to stop and his motor is always running near the red line on both ends of the floor. Luke is more controlled. He has really good size and has excellent body control. He has many ways to score (not sure if he got 11 or he got the last tip in for 13). I like his defense as he moves his feet well and stays in front and switches well. Matt is generally steady out there and you tend not to notice him but in the end he has double figures and plays really good defense.

Our weak spot today seemed to be at point, where coach K gave Derryck a lot of minutes even though he made some bad decisions and was a non factor offensively. Even Matt seemed a little careless at the point but we can afford those problems when we dominate so. Coach K got Chase in quite a bit so that gave him a little more game experience. I notice he is showing more muscular definition so the weight room is paying off.

Great overall game and win #1032 for coach K. At this rate he will hit 1100+, an unheard of number, probably never to be matched.


I don't get super excited about Marshall's shots from the field because all of those are on his teammates for getting him the ball in position to dunk the ball. He's 7 feet tall, he should be able to dunk.

What I am excited about with Marshall is that he is finally catching the ball, and he is making his free throws. This adds to our offense because it gives the guards confidence to give him the ball when he's open. Chase is suffering from lost confidence not only from himself, but from his teammates, because he messes up when they get him the ball in good position to make a play. Marshall APPEARS to have moved past this.

Add that in with an improving free throw percentage (13/14 is really good), then he becomes am important asset rather than a "god please don't mess up Marshall" type of player.

Still waiting on Luke to blow up from beyond the arc, but he appears to have kind of abandoned that "shooter" approach and has become more of a scorer, which is awesome, but i'd certainly like him to be a knock down guy.

This was one of Thornton's down games for the most part. 6 assists is really good, but overall I don't think anyone would say he played particularly well. As many of us have said, he is on the learning curve, and he didn't play great today, but I have confidence in him. I really like Thornton.

3-0 to start ACC play is crucial especially because we have a pretty easy early schedule (Wake is still really inconsistent, but can be strong, especially at home). I think that we will learn a lot with the game at Clemson this week. Even though it's not Little John, Clemson is a pretty good, big, team who I think will give us some problems. We are gonna have to shoot a better percentage from 3 to win I think.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-09-2016, 02:47 PM
Whatever happened with Marshall, it should be bottled. Yes the game plan is favorable for him and yes he is miles more aggressive out there but he also hit all but one of his many free throws. I have never seen a player make this kind of jump in his play before this. Defense was even good. Congratulations.

We have an exceptionally gifted an versatile offense not even counting Marshall. Brandon is just a great all around player. Grayson just is hard to stop and his motor is always running near the red line on both ends of the floor. Luke is more controlled. He has really good size and has excellent body control. He has many ways to score (not sure if he got 11 or he got the last tip in for 13). I like his defense as he moves his feet well and stays in front and switches well. Matt is generally steady out there and you tend not to notice him but in the end he has double figures and plays really good defense.

Our weak spot today seemed to be at point, where coach K gave Derryck a lot of minutes even though he made some bad decisions and was a non factor offensively. Even Matt seemed a little careless at the point but we can afford those problems when we dominate so. Coach K got Chase in quite a bit so that gave him a little more game experience. I notice he is showing more muscular definition so the weight room is paying off.

Great overall game and win #1032 for coach K. At this rate he will hit 1100+, an unheard of number, probably never to be matched.

Marshall is Miles more aggressive? :)

Missed most of this game due to obligations, but really just over the moon about MP3's development. I can't help but think that this is what I really love about college basketball: the development of the four year player who comes into their own and hits their stride as it clicks. Think Nate James, Chris Carawell, Zoubek, MP3, Scheyer - none of them superstars, but all guys who really blossomed as things coalesced in their last year. In this day and age, it's even more rare and even more special. Something to be appreciated.

devilirium
01-09-2016, 02:50 PM
Beautiful first half. Wasn't altogether worried about the second. We'd like to be sharp, but with such a big lead and relatively short rest--you look at bigger picture.

Agree with last poster about Kennard. Really starting to excel running that banana curl to the free throw line and getting his man to commit. Grayson and Brandon were terrific, Plumlee was sensational. If Marshall keeps playing to this level, then it really makes an already potent offense more formidable. He'll make an All ACC team. Thornton is going to be very good---by late Feb, he'll be an even greater asset.

Lone minus: The Crusties are checking out this year--even moreso than in other years. Average pulse above the rail is probably high 50 bpm. This isn't the opera. Get excited, people.

OZ
01-09-2016, 02:53 PM
I don't get super excited about Marshall's shots from the field because all of those are on his teammates for getting him the ball in position to dunk the ball. He's 7 feet tall, he should be able to dunk.

What I am excited about with Marshall is that he is finally catching the ball, and he is making his free throws. This adds to our offense because it gives the guards confidence to give him the ball when he's open.

Part of the difference now is that when Marshall "catches" the ball, he looks to score rather than always looking to kick it back out. That he has shown he can catch the ball is the reason his teammates now have the confidence to throw it to him...even run plays for him...and that has gotten me super excited about another offensive possibility.

jv001
01-09-2016, 02:55 PM
21 points on 6-7 from the field and 9-10 free throws.
10 rebounds with 3 offensive.
2 blocks.
0 turnovers
1 foul
I would say that's an improvement over his first 3 years. It seems he's getting the ball and not losing it to smaller players. He's fouling way less than before. With this play, his team mates have confidence getting him the ball near the basket. I loved the left handed jump hook. I really like what I see so far in this his senior year. GoDuke!

jv001
01-09-2016, 02:58 PM
Beautiful first half. Wasn't altogether worried about the second. We'd like to be sharp, but with such a big lead and relatively short rest--you look at bigger picture.

Agree with last poster about Kennard. Really starting to excel running that banana curl to the free throw line and getting his man to commit. Grayson and Brandon were terrific, Plumlee was sensational. If Marshall keeps playing to this level, then it really makes an already potent offense more formidable. He'll make an All ACC team. Thornton is going to be very good---by late Feb, he'll be an even greater asset.

Lone minus: The Crusties are checking out this year--even moreso than in other years. Average pulse above the rail is probably high 50 bpm. This isn't the opera. Get excited, people.

I love that Kennard can shoot the ball left handed or right handed on those pull up/lob shots. This makes it really hard for the defense to block the shot. Luke is a smart gifted basketball player that's going to keep getting better. Wait until the 3 ball starts dropping. GoDuke!

DukieInBrasil
01-09-2016, 03:02 PM
Also, the 1st time MP3 has had consecutive 2x-doubles (edit: he didn't have a 2x-double last game, due to only 7 rebounds). I think his eruption is more tactical than others are giving credit for, he is being positioned so that when the drivers get in the lane his man commits and leaves a lane for MP3 to catch the ball, step and explode for a dunk. Whereas before he was not getting the ball delivered to him with a clear lane very often. Remember the dreaded ISO plays we were running for him? In addition to this MP3 has dribbled aggressively from the elbow to the rim and gotten fouled or and-ones in the past 2 games as well. In addition to this, Derryck even set him up on an ISO play today and he hit a bank shot jump hook! I don't expect him to get so many driving lanes or hit on his ISO plays regularly, but the dude is playing with sky high confidence right now, and it's not just b/c others are passing him the ball and weren't before. He's getting the ball in different places and in different ways. Like i've been saying: get him the ball A) chest high or higher B) moving towards the basket and C) with some touch on it. Now he's cashing in!

Saratoga2
01-09-2016, 03:07 PM
I love that Kennard can shoot the ball left handed or right handed on those pull up/lob shots. This makes it really hard for the defense to block the shot. Luke is a smart gifted basketball player that's going to keep getting better. Wait until the 3 ball starts dropping. GoDuke!

I thought Kennard didn't look to score much as the game went below 10 minutes to go. We had Thornton taking quite a few shots then and he was off today. I would like to see either Ingram, Allen or Kennard to touch the ball at least once on every possession that isn't a direct open path to the basket. When any of those three touch the ball it puts a lot of pressure on the opponents defense.

jv001
01-09-2016, 03:14 PM
I thought Kennard didn't look to score much as the game went below 10 minutes to go. We had Thornton taking quite a few shots then and he was off today. I would like to see either Ingram, Allen or Kennard to touch the ball at least once on every possession that isn't a direct open path to the basket. When any of those three touch the ball it puts a lot of pressure on the opponents defense.

I saw the same thing regarding Thornton dribbling unnecessarily today(especially 2nd half). I wondered then and now if Coach K was trying to get him some confidence. I thought I heard Brant mention one of Thornton's team mates giving him a look after a poor play. I want to see Derryck playing good defense and being the 4th option on creating offense. Then I want Matt as the 5th option. Matt's better suited for being the guy one of the other 3 or 4 guys set up for the 3 pointer. GoDuke!

ncexnyc
01-09-2016, 04:30 PM
This is the first time this season I've been able to watch back to back games and it's been an impressive two games.

It seems everyone wants to talk about MP3, so I might as well add my two cents. His recent success appears to be based on the fact that he's playing with a very unselfish group of players who are more than willing to pass him the ball. The second reason is that he's getting into good scoring position, which we can chalk up to court awareness on his part.

Ingram had another great start, but tailed off for the second straight game. This might be something we keep an eye on over the next few games. Is it fatigue or just the flow of the game?

Luke is a very crafty player and for a kid who came in with the rep as a shooter has shown us he can do so much more than just lighting it up from outside.

Matt had a better game than his previous outing, but I'd really like for us to find him for more of those spot up threes and he still is good for one or two of his old man drives to the basket.

I'm really liking what I see from Derryck. Yes, he does make the mistake many young PG's make, by driving the ball to far into the defense and then having nowhere to go, but he has shown me the ability to take just about anyone off the dribble and create space for his own shot. He's been missing a lot of these short, open shots, but that fact that he can get into position for them bodes well for him in the future.

Chase has the skills to be a very good player, but like a lot of freshman it all comes down to reps. Once he gets comfortable on the court he'll be fine.

Of course no game discussion would be complete with us talking about our human pinball. Mr. Allen continues to pile up the floor burns and it's a pleasure to watch a kid who leaves it all out there game after game.

dukelifer
01-09-2016, 04:43 PM
I don't get super excited about Marshall's shots from the field because all of those are on his teammates for getting him the ball in position to dunk the ball. He's 7 feet tall, he should be able to dunk.

What I am excited about with Marshall is that he is finally catching the ball, and he is making his free throws. This adds to our offense because it gives the guards confidence to give him the ball when he's open. Chase is suffering from lost confidence not only from himself, but from his teammates, because he messes up when they get him the ball in good position to make a play. Marshall APPEARS to have moved past this.

Add that in with an improving free throw percentage (13/14 is really good), then he becomes am important asset rather than a "god please don't mess up Marshall" type of player.

Still waiting on Luke to blow up from beyond the arc, but he appears to have kind of abandoned that "shooter" approach and has become more of a scorer, which is awesome, but i'd certainly like him to be a knock down guy.

This was one of Thornton's down games for the most part. 6 assists is really good, but overall I don't think anyone would say he played particularly well. As many of us have said, he is on the learning curve, and he didn't play great today, but I have confidence in him. I really like Thornton.

3-0 to start ACC play is crucial especially because we have a pretty easy early schedule (Wake is still really inconsistent, but can be strong, especially at home). I think that we will learn a lot with the game at Clemson this week. Even though it's not Little John, Clemson is a pretty good, big, team who I think will give us some problems. We are gonna have to shoot a better percentage from 3 to win I think.

Hitting free throws is a critical skill for a big man. Marshall appears to have minimized his mechanics and is shooting a simple shot with mostly his wrist. If he catches the ball he will either dunk or get fouled. If he continues to play like this- Duke will be a very hard team to play - four scorers who can drive ( well Matt is somewhat limited) or short from deep and big guy who can dunk or hit throws. Just need to tune the D. We will see how they do against the upper echelon but there has been marked improvement.

Indoor66
01-09-2016, 04:57 PM
The tailing off be our players in the past two games may well have been the result of a Coaches decision to not keep the pedal to the metal as an act of sportsmanship. We might have won by 50 if we kept pressing the attack. We did not. As a result we only won by 24. To take a player to task or to attempt to reach any conclusions based on 2nd half performances in a win of this nature is, IMO, unfair to the player.

Furniture
01-09-2016, 05:05 PM
The tailing off be our players in the past two games may well have been the result of a Coaches decision to not keep the pedal to the metal as an act of sportsmanship. We might have won by 50 if we kept pressing the attack. We did not. As a result we only won by 24. To take a player to task or to attempt to reach any conclusions based on 2nd half performances in a win of this nature is, IMO, unfair to the player.

I think you are right and I also think K was experimenting with DT and his driving.

I also think that the Marshall improvement has a lot to do with K.

It's really interesting watching the new layers of ammunition that K adds to the Duke teams as they progress through a season!

NYBri
01-09-2016, 05:12 PM
Whatever happened with Marshall, it should be bottled. Yes the game plan is favorable for him and yes he is miles more aggressive out there but he also hit all but one of his many free throws. I have never seen a player make this kind of jump in his play before this. Defense was even good. Congratulations.

We have an exceptionally gifted an versatile offense not even counting Marshall. Brandon is just a great all around player. Grayson just is hard to stop and his motor is always running near the red line on both ends of the floor. Luke is more controlled. He has really good size and has excellent body control. He has many ways to score (not sure if he got 11 or he got the last tip in for 13). I like his defense as he moves his feet well and stays in front and switches well. Matt is generally steady out there and you tend not to notice him but in the end he has double figures and plays really good defense.

Our weak spot today seemed to be at point, where coach K gave Derryck a lot of minutes even though he made some bad decisions and was a non factor offensively. Even Matt seemed a little careless at the point but we can afford those problems when we dominate so. Coach K got Chase in quite a bit so that gave him a little more game experience. I notice he is showing more muscular definition so the weight room is paying off.

Great overall game and win #1032 for coach K. At this rate he will hit 1100+, an unheard of number, probably never to be matched.

K has obviously worked on getting him the ball because we have three outstanding guards who can drive at will. This was the missing piece. One thing to drive and always look to finish, but teams will rotate and stop the drive...but not with Marshall there and ready for the dish and jam. Keeps them honest and opens up the rim for the guards.

Pleasure seeing us do that after years of watching other teams do it on us.

NYBri
01-09-2016, 05:22 PM
Did anyone else notice after Grayson dunked on a open breakaway in the second half....emphatically? It really wasn't necessary at all and he gave a look to the bench on the way back. Instinct was that K was telling him to take it easy. Last thing we need is for him to land on his back or twist and ankle on an uncontested dunk that easily could have been a lay up.

Man, I keep thinking he has to be careful or he's going to kill himself on one of those trapeze slams. No regard for his body after the ball goes in.

PallasAthena
01-09-2016, 05:27 PM
Didn't he arrive at Duke as a 16-year-old?

I think he did; he skipped his senior year in high school in Connecticut (he'd filled all the requirements for graduation), but he was still young at 16. IIRC, his parents also moved to Durham at that time, because he was so young and because he was their only child.

He is a wonderful commentator - smart AND wise. I am always relieved when I find out he is doing a Duke game.

DUKIE V(A)
01-09-2016, 05:40 PM
Love the unselfish play.

Our guys create lots of mismatches when we are on offense.

Ingram is becoming a disruptive force on defense and on the boards.

Team seems to be improving And moving in the right direction.

Indoor66
01-09-2016, 05:55 PM
I think he did; he skipped his senior year in high school in Connecticut (he'd filled all the requirements for graduation), but he was still young at 16. IIRC, his parents also moved to Durham at that time, because he was so young and because he was their only child.

He is a wonderful commentator - smart AND wise. I am always relieved when I find out he is doing a Duke game.

Among other things, his dad, Joe, delivered the Morning Herald.

MCFinARL
01-09-2016, 05:58 PM
Hitting free throws is a critical skill for a big man. Marshall appears to have minimized his mechanics and is shooting a simple shot with mostly his wrist. If he catches the ball he will either dunk or get fouled. If he continues to play like this- Duke will be a very hard team to play - four scorers who can drive ( well Matt is somewhat limited) or short from deep and big guy who can dunk or hit throws. Just need to tune the D. We will see how they do against the upper echelon but there has been marked improvement.

If that's what it is--minimizing his mechanics--it is working great. MP3's free throw percentage on the year is now just over 60%; in conference play (i.e. last three games) it is 77.8%, behind only Kennard and Allen. Keep it up, Marshall!

DukeDevil
01-09-2016, 05:58 PM
Did anyone else notice after Grayson dunked on a open breakaway in the second half...emphatically? It really wasn't necessary at all and he gave a look to the bench on the way back. Instinct was that K was telling him to take it easy. Last thing we need is for him to land on his back or twist and ankle on an uncontested dunk that easily could have been a lay up.

Man, I keep thinking he has to be careful or he's going to kill himself on one of those trapeze slams. No regard for his body after the ball goes in.

I got the impression his look was more to help wake up the crowd, which was about as lethargic as I've ever heard a Cameron crowd. Yes it's hard to stay pumped when you're up a lot but that was anemic.

devilirium
01-09-2016, 07:03 PM
I got the impression his look was more to help wake up the crowd, which was about as lethargic as I've ever heard a Cameron crowd. Yes it's hard to stay pumped when you're up a lot but that was anemic.

Not sure what the people upstairs want this year. You pay a lot of dough to get those seats. It seems incomprehensible to just act like it's no big deal when Grayson dunks it with two hands on a break. Rest assured, K isn't happy about it. He made mention of it again postgame.

uh_no
01-09-2016, 07:04 PM
I got the impression his look was more to help wake up the crowd, which was about as lethargic as I've ever heard a Cameron crowd. Yes it's hard to stay pumped when you're up a lot but that was anemic.

the students weren't there. we were up by 20+ and playing pretty mediocre basketball in the second half.

the ridiculous amount of timeouts, and auxiliary stoppages for seemingly no reason took the air out of the building.

devildeac
01-09-2016, 07:21 PM
Well, I'm down another $1K but it was worth it :o .

kAzE
01-09-2016, 07:23 PM
Did anyone else notice after Grayson dunked on a open breakaway in the second half...emphatically? It really wasn't necessary at all and he gave a look to the bench on the way back. Instinct was that K was telling him to take it easy. Last thing we need is for him to land on his back or twist and ankle on an uncontested dunk that easily could have been a lay up.

Man, I keep thinking he has to be careful or he's going to kill himself on one of those trapeze slams. No regard for his body after the ball goes in.

Literally every time he goes up for a dunk, I hold my breath and hope to God nothing happens when he lands. It's seriously the MOST terrified I've ever been watching a Duke player. It's like watching a daredevil act every fast break.

NYBri
01-09-2016, 07:42 PM
Did anyone else notice after Grayson dunked on a open breakaway in the second half...emphatically? It really wasn't necessary at all and he gave a look to the bench on the way back. Instinct was that K was telling him to take it easy. Last thing we need is for him to land on his back or twist and ankle on an uncontested dunk that easily could have been a lay up.

Man, I keep thinking he has to be careful or he's going to kill himself on one of those trapeze slams. No regard for his body after the ball goes in.

This was the play I was referring to:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:14535120

dukelifer
01-09-2016, 08:22 PM
Literally every time he goes up for a dunk, I hold my breath and hope to God nothing happens when he lands. It's seriously the MOST terrified I've ever been watching a Duke player. It's like watching a daredevil act every fast break.

It is the landing hard and awkwardly on one leg that causes me concern.

pretpret
01-09-2016, 08:22 PM
What has most impressed me about Marshall is his defense against penetrating guards. S Allen was 1/9 with 3 pts tonight and many of those contested misses were at the basket. Marshall, like zoubs, has really stepped up his rim protecting.

Native
01-09-2016, 10:51 PM
I have to say, while Marshall, Brandon, and Grayson are becoming the go-to guys on this team, I've really been impressed with Luke's development. He's a scorer at heart but I also love his nose for the ball around the glass. A few times a game he'll get a rebound that, as a guard, he has no business getting.

martydoesntfoul
01-10-2016, 12:34 AM
This gives us five players so far this season, if my records are correct, with at least one 20+ point game (Allen, Ingram, Jones, Kennard, Plumlee), with Thornton very close (18) on one occasion. That kind of balance is just fantastic.

Kedsy
01-10-2016, 01:22 AM
This gives us five players so far this season, if my records are correct, with at least one 20+ point game (Allen, Ingram, Jones, Kennard, Plumlee), with Thornton very close (18) on one occasion. That kind of balance is just fantastic.

Thornton actually had 19 in a game this season (as well as another game with 18). Amile Jefferson also had 19 points in a game this year, giving us seven guys with at least one game of 19+.

But having five guys with 20+ in a game is not as unusual as you might think. We've done it in each of the last five seasons before this one:

2015: 5 (Okafor, Cook, Winslow, T Jones, Allen, plus Jefferson with 19 and M Jones with 17);
2014: 5 (Parker, Hood, Cook, Sulaimon, Dawkins, plus Jefferson with 17);
2013: 5 (MP2, Curry, Cook, Sulaimon, Kelly);
2012: 5 (Rivers, Curry, MP2, Kelly, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 17);
2011: 7 (Smith, Singler, Curry, Dawkins, MP2, Kelly, Irving);
2010: 4 (Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 19 and MP2 with 18).

I didn't go beyond that, but my guess is most years we at least come close.

martydoesntfoul
01-10-2016, 04:04 AM
Thornton actually had 19 in a game this season (as well as another game with 18). Amile Jefferson also had 19 points in a game this year, giving us seven guys with at least one game of 19+.

But having five guys with 20+ in a game is not as unusual as you might think. We've done it in each of the last five seasons before this one:

2015: 5 (Okafor, Cook, Winslow, T Jones, Allen, plus Jefferson with 19 and M Jones with 17);
2014: 5 (Parker, Hood, Cook, Sulaimon, Dawkins, plus Jefferson with 17);
2013: 5 (MP2, Curry, Cook, Sulaimon, Kelly);
2012: 5 (Rivers, Curry, MP2, Kelly, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 17);
2011: 7 (Smith, Singler, Curry, Dawkins, MP2, Kelly, Irving);
2010: 4 (Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 19 and MP2 with 18).

I didn't go beyond that, but my guess is most years we at least come close.

Great stuff Kedsy!

jv001
01-10-2016, 08:21 AM
Thornton actually had 19 in a game this season (as well as another game with 18). Amile Jefferson also had 19 points in a game this year, giving us seven guys with at least one game of 19+.

But having five guys with 20+ in a game is not as unusual as you might think. We've done it in each of the last five seasons before this one:

2015: 5 (Okafor, Cook, Winslow, T Jones, Allen, plus Jefferson with 19 and M Jones with 17);
2014: 5 (Parker, Hood, Cook, Sulaimon, Dawkins, plus Jefferson with 17);
2013: 5 (MP2, Curry, Cook, Sulaimon, Kelly);
2012: 5 (Rivers, Curry, MP2, Kelly, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 17);
2011: 7 (Smith, Singler, Curry, Dawkins, MP2, Kelly, Irving);
2010: 4 (Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Dawkins, plus MP1 with 19 and MP2 with 18).

I didn't go beyond that, but my guess is most years we at least come close.

Good info Kedsy. I think we are able to score more this season for a couple of reasons: 1) the new rules help. 2) We get the ball up the court quickly and get into our offense. That offense being dribble drive by Grayson, Ingram and Kennard. We look to pass the ball as well as shoot it. In past years, there was just too much idle dribbling around. I'm not going to name players, but I bet you can see one or two in your mind. GoDuke!

lotusland
01-10-2016, 08:59 AM
I really like the offense having 4 shooters and slashers. Ingram is defending well at the 4 and I wonder if we'll play a team whose power forward has enough size to take advantage of Ingram inside without getting absolutely torched by him on the other end. Brice Johnson will be a tough matchup but not necessarily because of his size and strength and he's not used to guarding a player like Ingram.

Lar77
01-10-2016, 07:00 PM
I lost 500 and enjoyed every minute of it. I don't think anyone expected that start. Nice to see Ron Rivera there. I heard him on K''s Sirius show and they really respect each other. 1966, 1991, and past managers also honored.
Clemson may be a test for us, but still a win.

moonpie23
01-10-2016, 07:40 PM
i'm down 3K.......i gotta quit taking the spread...

Newton_14
01-10-2016, 08:16 PM
Nice lopsided win, but it was a tale of 2 halves. Very efficient O in the 1st half. It looked like the team didn't care about playing in the 2nd half.
MP3 looks like he's playing in a different universe now than even earlier this year. I'd like to point out that MP3 only needs to score 7 more points to surpass his career total in points thru his 1st 3 years at Duke. He needs 53 more rebounds to surpass his career total prior to this year. Dude is playing on a different level than he ever has before at Duke.

Lots of thoughts on this game, but I wanted to respond to the observation you make above. I don't feel it had anything to do with not caring. They were up 25, and expended a lot of energy in building that lead. I think two things led to half two, 1. It is just super hard to maintain that level of intensity when up 25 points. It is practically impossible. 2. They were exhausted. We have a 6.2 man rotation, and those wings are working their tales off on both sides of the ball on just about every possession. We are so limited in being able to rotate guys in and out to keep them fresh, it's insane. I worry about that a lot as the conference grind reaches full swing, especially for the freshman. I almost guarantee you we are going to get blown out somewhere along the way, if not twice, due to fatigue and freshman "wall". And I'll add a third thing in that Vatech is a lot better than we made them look, so them playing us even in the second half is not surprising.

K is pulling off one of his great coaching gems. Seriously. I know we say this all the time, but we can never take for granted to just how great of a coach the man is. Yes we have good/great players. Someone mentioned last week that we have the best set of wings ever on a Duke team. Collectively I think that is true. However, right now, K is maximizing their talents. We are hiding our depth issues, especially on the interior, with superior offensive scheme's, and putting each individual player in a position to maximize his skillset. Crazy good.

Those wings. Brandon, with his length, combined with ball handling, agility, and smooth shooting stroke, is such a great weapon to have. He can make plays on both ends that no other player can simply because of his unique gifts and he did that in Spades against the Hokies. 3 Pointers, Blocks, Rebounds, deflections, altered shots. He can erase a lot of mistakes by others and himself simply with the crazy length. He made too many possession and game altering plays yesterday to count. Then there is Grayson, with crazy motor, strength, hops, and shooting ability. Much like Winslow last year, if he gets going downhill you just can't stop him. Then Kennard comes off the bench and nails 3's, scores in traffic, distributes, etc. All 3 were very strong yesterday. And the thing is, adding Matt Jones to those 3, all have good to great size for their position, size and strength wise, (except for Ingram who offsets that liability with length). So even though Plumdawg is the only "normal" size interior player getting lots of minutes, we overcome that with the size, strength, and/or length of the four crazy good wings. Even though our defense isn't great, those attributes, combined with crazy efficient and good offense, is going to keep us in just about every game. Except of course, for the outlier games I mentioned above, where I do think we will get killed a couple of times for reasons mentioned above.

Plumlee- I went against the grain in the MOTM and voted for Brandon, but Marshall is currently maximizing his talents and it is wonderful to see. That's two games in a row. One more and we have a habit formed. A good habit. Go up strong and dunk it. Play aggressive but in control. And notice too, the cerebral part. He is deliberately avoiding foul trouble in first halves because he knows he has to play 34+ mpg for us to win. Very similar to the position Mason was in during his Senior Yr. MP3 is "showing", by hands raised and strong presence, but at the same time backing away just enough, and making sure his arms do NOT come down, to avoid fouls. If the guy makes the shot, so what. "Their is a time to take a stand, and this is not that time". It takes great discipline to pull that off and he is currently doing it very well.

Great win. We never let the Hokies feel as though they had a chance. Even in the 2nd Half when they cut the 29 point lead to 21 a couple of times, we sustained it and took it right back to 25 every single time. That was great to see.

Great job Devils. Get some rest and focus on the Next Play!

Go Duke!

Steven43
01-11-2016, 01:12 PM
Not sure what the people upstairs want this year. You pay a lot of dough to get those seats. It seems incomprehensible to just act like it's no big deal when Grayson dunks it with two hands on a break. Rest assured, K isn't happy about it. He made mention of it again postgame.

Well, that's what I get for TRYING to put a title on my post, something I almost never attempt to do. Could someone please correct my title typos? Thanks.

Anyway, I have been noticing for some years now that the Cameron crowd noise and general fan enthusiasm is not what it was in the early 2000's when I first began attending Duke games, but it has become especially pronounced this season. I was sitting in Section 14 Row G, for the VT game, and cheering louder and more consistently than just about anybody else nearby, and I wasn't cheering any more than usual. I even got one or two semi-annoyed looks from people, as if they thought my enthusiasm to be excessive. It was weird. In years past, particularly the early-mid 2000's I had to literally shout to the person sitting next to me in order to be heard above the crowd. Not anymore.

I don't know if Duke fans are just particularly content due to recent success, and thus don't feel the need to support the team as vociferously as they used to do, or if it is more a general thing with fans in that the ubiquitous cell phone now steals attention from truly getting involved in the game. Regardless, something is happening, and it's not good. I am well aware that it is very easy these days to fall into the trap of texting, checking email, etc. while live action is going on right in front of one's face. I too am guilty of it sometimes, though I try to make a point of not doing it. I mean honestly, how many things in life are more enjoyable and fulfilling than being a Duke fan while attending a game at Cameron Indoor with Coach K as the head coach and the team is loaded with both elite basketball talent as well as fine upstanding young men who make us proud to be fans of Duke University and Duke Basketball? If ALL Duke fans cannot exhibit great enthusiasm in a sporting environment such as this, then I don't know what to say.

Finally, I would appreciate it if someone would post a link to Coach's comments regarding the crowd after the VT game as well as his previous postgame comment (as referenced by devilirium). If you can't find links, the general quotes would suffice. Thank you so much, and Go Duke!!

Kfanarmy
01-11-2016, 01:36 PM
Well, that's what I get for TRYING to put a title on my post, something I almost never attempt to do. Could someone please correct my title typos? Thanks.

Anyway, I have been noticing for some years now that the Cameron crowd noise and general fan enthusiasm is not what it was in the early 2000's when I first began attending Duke games, but it has become especially pronounced this season. I was sitting in Section 14 Row G, for the VT game, and cheering louder and more consistently than just about anybody else nearby, and I wasn't cheering any more than usual....


As we get older, our hearing tends to diminish...just sayn LOL

Steven43
01-11-2016, 02:34 PM
As we get older, our hearing tends to diminish...just sayn LOL

Yes, there is no doubt that hearing diminishes over time. But have you been going to games in Cameron for the past 15 years or so? Have you also not noticed the trend mentioned in my previous post regarding a seeming diminishment of crowd enthusiasm and vociferousness over the years? Am I on an island here?

Kedsy
01-11-2016, 02:51 PM
Yes, there is no doubt that hearing diminishes over time. But have you been going to games in Cameron for the past 15 years or so? Have you also not noticed the trend mentioned in my previous post regarding a seeming diminishment of crowd enthusiasm and vociferousness over the years? Am I on an island here?

I went to Duke in the late '70s/early '80s. I went to at least one or two games in Cameron in the late '80s, '90s, and '00s. In the early 2000's, while you were there, my generation constantly complained that the crowd was spoiled and unimaginative and way too quiet. I guess it's never as loud as we remember it.

That said, I don't know exactly when they restricted the students to just one side of the gym, but I imagine that alone makes it difficult to get as loud as it once was.

mpj96
01-11-2016, 02:52 PM
Loved how K ran onto the floor to hug Jeter after he drew a charge. What a coach.

Might have been a little quieter because we didn't have the students as a good baseline. Also, lots of small kiddos in attendance for weekend daytime games. I saw K wave his arms to try to get the "student" section into making some noise. Suspect it will get better next nighttime game with students back.

Stray Gator
01-11-2016, 03:01 PM
Yes, there is no doubt that hearing diminishes over time. But have you been going to games in Cameron for the past 15 years or so? Have you also not noticed the trend mentioned in my previous post regarding a seeming diminishment of crowd enthusiasm and vociferousness over the years? Am I on an island here?

I've been going to games in Cameron for more than 15 years, and I believe that expressions of concern about diminishing enthusiasm customarily appear early in every season. That noise levels are often down during the first half of the season's home games is probably attributable to several factors: (a) in the risers downstairs, much of the crowd at pre-ACC games consists of new frosh and/or non-students, many of whom aren't familiar with the cheers or are preoccupied with taking selfies; (b) upstairs, many of the seats at the early games are occupied by people who are not the regular season ticket holders -- in fact, at a lot of these games we see plenty of empty seats upstairs -- and these visitors likewise tend to be unfamiliar with the cheers and less focused on the game, particularly since (c) the fact that most of these games are not against conference rivals or elite programs, and are usually not hotly contested, evokes less emotion from the crowd (and, as we sometimes witness, even waning enthusiasm from the players themselves when the score is not close). Check back in a couple of weeks when the ACC competition heats up, and I'm optimistic that you'll be more encouraged by the participation of the crusties.

freshmanjs
01-11-2016, 03:22 PM
Well, that's what I get for TRYING to put a title on my post, something I almost never attempt to do. Could someone please correct my title typos? Thanks.

Anyway, I have been noticing for some years now that the Cameron crowd noise and general fan enthusiasm is not what it was in the early 2000's when I first began attending Duke games, but it has become especially pronounced this season. I was sitting in Section 14 Row G, for the VT game, and cheering louder and more consistently than just about anybody else nearby, and I wasn't cheering any more than usual. I even got one or two semi-annoyed looks from people, as if they thought my enthusiasm to be excessive. It was weird. In years past, particularly the early-mid 2000's I had to literally shout to the person sitting next to me in order to be heard above the crowd. Not anymore.

I don't know if Duke fans are just particularly content due to recent success, and thus don't feel the need to support the team as vociferously as they used to do, or if it is more a general thing with fans in that the ubiquitous cell phone now steals attention from truly getting involved in the game. Regardless, something is happening, and it's not good. I am well aware that it is very easy these days to fall into the trap of texting, checking email, etc. while live action is going on right in front of one's face. I too am guilty of it sometimes, though I try to make a point of not doing it. I mean honestly, how many things in life are more enjoyable and fulfilling than being a Duke fan while attending a game at Cameron Indoor with Coach K as the head coach and the team is loaded with both elite basketball talent as well as fine upstanding young men who make us proud to be fans of Duke University and Duke Basketball? If ALL Duke fans cannot exhibit great enthusiasm in a sporting environment such as this, then I don't know what to say.

Finally, I would appreciate it if someone would post a link to Coach's comments regarding the crowd after the VT game as well as his previous postgame comment (as referenced by devilirium). If you can't find links, the general quotes would suffice. Thank you so much, and Go Duke!!


It's like Saturday Night Live. Whatever year it is now, it was much better 10-15 years ago.

FerryFor50
01-11-2016, 03:24 PM
It's like Saturday Night Live. Whatever year it is now, it was much better 10-15 years ago.

I blame the millennials.

Indoor66
01-11-2016, 03:29 PM
I blame the millennials.

I'm with Stray, I blame the calendar - both this year and for the passing of years. I KNOW it was much louder in 1960 than today. Heck, then we had to have sound baffles in the ceiling.

Durham Blue Devil
01-11-2016, 05:06 PM
I'm with Stray, I blame the calendar - both this year and for the passing of years. I KNOW it was much louder in 1960 than today. Heck, then we had to have sound baffles in the ceiling.

I have been a season ticket holder since 2008 and I tend to agree that the crowd noise and overall student attendance has decreased, with this season being the most concerning. I tend not to put much stock into games when the students are out for Thanksgiving and winter break. That said, student attendance was frankly poor at the Indiana game (both undergrad and graduate). There were plenty of open bleachers on the sides of the undergrad section and the back of the grad sections. It was one of the louder games this year, but attendance paled in comparison to prior Big Ten/ACC Challenge games.

Each year, there is typically one or two undergrads near mid-court that consistently start the chants when Duke is on offense. This year there appears to be no consistent "ringleader". Chants are at times disjointed, and there have been quite a few offensive possessions this year when no chant was going at all and you could hear a pin drop. This doesn't happen that often but more so this year than the prior 7 years combined.

Cameron remains one of the best venues and experiences in the country for any sports fan. It's just that aside from Coach K's comments on multiple occasions that he was "disappointed" in the crowd during the local postgame show, I have been thinking the atmosphere has trended downhill for the past 2-3 years.

Olympic Fan
01-11-2016, 05:21 PM
The thing you all are ignoring about the crowd is that over the last few years, a large percentage of the (former) student seats are being sold or handled out by the administration.

Not sure exactly when it changed, but the entire area behind the team benches and the scorer's table used to be packed by students -- just as it still is behind press row. There are still some students at the ends of the benches/scorer's table side, so it's not quite a 50 percent cut in student seats, but it is substantial (it extends from baseline to baseline]. Now, almost half of the bleacher seats are permanently occupied by non-students ... and while they may be fans, they don't make near the noise that the crazies did. [PS: I understand that the reduction of student seating was the result of poor student turnout over a number of years. I know the university warned students that if they didn't fill the student section -- and for several years, they consistently failed to fill the ends of the bleachers -- they would lose seats.]

Yes, it was louder 10 years ago -- when there were 40 percent more students.

I will say that over the last few games, the students have been on break and many people seated in their section of the bleachers are just fans. Again, they cheer, but they are not as loud as the students. Cameron can still get loud -- the last two UNC games were as loud as I can remember it.

PS Anybody else old enough to remember when BOG occupied the seats right behind the visiting bench -- with just one row of bleachers separating the visiting team from the loudest, most obnoxious fans in the entire building? (And believe me, that's meant as a compliment).

uh_no
01-11-2016, 05:25 PM
I have been a season ticket holder since 2008 and I tend to agree that the crowd noise and overall student attendance has decreased, with this season being the most concerning. I tend not to put much stock into games when the students are out for Thanksgiving and winter break.
I've been going to games since 2007 (HA Take that youngin'!) and there have always been abysmally poorly attended games, even in ACC season. I remember a BC game that had nearly empty bleachers at tipoff (and that was with the silly "validation" system they had in place)...the line monitors were begging people to call their friends to get them to show so it wasn't an embarassment.


That said, student attendance was frankly poor at the Indiana game (both undergrad and graduate). There were plenty of open bleachers on the sides of the undergrad section and the back of the grad sections. It was one of the louder games this year, but attendance paled in comparison to prior Big Ten/ACC Challenge games. Usually we're playing some top 5 or 10 opponent in the big 10 ACC challenge. Indiana was not that. It was really hard to get up for any OOC game this year....we play all our big games at neutral sites and didn't have a highly ranked team for the challenge. Further, we don't play a big OOC game in the middle of the ACC schedule anymore. I remember when we played georgetown one year at noon on a saturday, and the line was almost to the blue zone....longest line I've seen for a non UNC game...we don't play those games anymore.



Each year, there is typically one or two undergrads near mid-court that consistently start the chants when Duke is on offense. This year there appears to be no consistent "ringleader". Chants are at times disjointed, and there have been quite a few offensive possessions this year when no chant was going at all and you could hear a pin drop. This doesn't happen that often but more so this year than the prior 7 years combined.
The "ringleaders" are typically the line monitors. I think they've done a fine job. We've had a ton of games with the students gone now. classes start wednesday. Don't think there're enough chants? start some yourself.



Cameron remains one of the best venues and experiences in the country for any sports fan. It's just that aside from Coach K's comments on multiple occasions that he was "disappointed" in the crowd during the local postgame show, I have been thinking the atmosphere has trended downhill for the past 2-3 years.

11e

Furniture
01-11-2016, 05:46 PM
I don't get it. Don't people go to Duke just for the basketball? I mean why would you go there other than that? It's really unacceptable!

Tappan Zee Devil
01-11-2016, 07:07 PM
I've been going to games in Cameron for more than 15 years, and I believe that expressions of concern about diminishing enthusiasm customarily appear early in every season. That noise levels are often down during the first half of the season's home games is probably attributable to several factors: (a) in the risers downstairs, much of the crowd at pre-ACC games consists of new frosh and/or non-students, many of whom aren't familiar with the cheers or are preoccupied with taking selfies; (b) upstairs, many of the seats at the early games are occupied by people who are not the regular season ticket holders -- in fact, at a lot of these games we see plenty of empty seats upstairs -- and these visitors likewise tend to be unfamiliar with the cheers and less focused on the game, particularly since (c) the fact that most of these games are not against conference rivals or elite programs, and are usually not hotly contested, evokes less emotion from the crowd (and, as we sometimes witness, even waning enthusiasm from the players themselves when the score is not close). Check back in a couple of weeks when the ACC competition heats up, and I'm optimistic that you'll be more encouraged by the participation of the crusties.

Stray -

You are in my class (T '70) - It is closer to 50 years than 15 years.

And we were louder and rowdier back then :)
But otherwise agree with your analysis*


* I learned a long time ago that there is nothing to be gained by disputing a topic with Stray Gator

Stray Gator
01-11-2016, 07:43 PM
Stray -

You are in my class (T '70) - It is closer to 50 years than 15 years.

And we were louder and rowdier back then :)
But otherwise agree with your analysis . . . .

To be fair, there was a two-decade span after we graduated when I was so preoccupied with becoming a lawyer and being a parent -- while trying to live within a budget -- that the only way I could see Duke basketball games was on TV, and then only sporadically. But I was fortunate enough to be able to resume attending games since 1990, which is, in fact, "more than 15 years." ;)

While we're on that digression, though, I do want to mention that it was a great pleasure to see "Missoula Mike" Lewis again, sitting across the court from us at the game on Saturday. That '66 team made its run to the Final Four the spring before we enrolled, and of course came up short against Kentucky in the semifinals when Verga came down with the flu. Although we got to see some thrilling games in the Indoor Stadium during the next four years -- including the triple OT win over UNC -- we were a little disappointed that we didn't get to see any of "our" teams make another Final Four run.

jv001
01-11-2016, 10:37 PM
To be fair, there was a two-decade span after we graduated when I was so preoccupied with becoming a lawyer and being a parent -- while trying to live within a budget -- that the only way I could see Duke basketball games was on TV, and then only sporadically. But I was fortunate enough to be able to resume attending games since 1990, which is, in fact, "more than 15 years." ;)

While we're on that digression, though, I do want to mention that it was a great pleasure to see "Missoula Mike" Lewis again, sitting across the court from us at the game on Saturday. That '66 team made its run to the Final Four the spring before we enrolled, and of course came up short against Kentucky in the semifinals when Verga came down with the flu. Although we got to see some thrilling games in the Indoor Stadium during the next four years -- including the triple OT win over UNC -- we were a little disappointed that we didn't get to see any of "our" teams make another Final Four run.

Mike Lewis was pound for pound the best center to play for Duke up until Christian Laettner. Well maybe Randy Denton might have something to say about that. Mike at 6-7 was pretty hard to stop. He was a beast. I loved watching that team play. GoDuke!

Ggallagher
01-12-2016, 09:05 AM
To be fair, there was a two-decade span after we graduated when I was so preoccupied with becoming a lawyer and being a parent -- while trying to live within a budget -- that the only way I could see Duke basketball games was on TV, and then only sporadically. But I was fortunate enough to be able to resume attending games since 1990, which is, in fact, "more than 15 years." ;)

While we're on that digression, though, I do want to mention that it was a great pleasure to see "Missoula Mike" Lewis again, sitting across the court from us at the game on Saturday. That '66 team made its run to the Final Four the spring before we enrolled, and of course came up short against Kentucky in the semifinals when Verga came down with the flu. Although we got to see some thrilling games in the Indoor Stadium during the next four years -- including the triple OT win over UNC -- we were a little disappointed that we didn't get to see any of "our" teams make another Final Four run.

As another member of the Class of '70, does anyone know if there have been any photos or videos posted of the recognition of the 1966 team? I've looked around and haven't found any yet. I'd really like to see those guys again - though I'm guessing they may have changed as much as I have in the last forty-five years.

Stray Gator
01-12-2016, 10:10 AM
As another member of the Class of '70, does anyone know if there have been any photos or videos posted of the recognition of the 1966 team? I've looked around and haven't found any yet. I'd really like to see those guys again - though I'm guessing they may have changed as much as I have in the last forty-five years.

I couldn't find any published photos of the '66 and '91 team members who were honored at the game on Saturday, either; but if you recorded the game telecast, there was a brief segment during halftime where they showed the gathering on the court. Although they focused mainly on Grant Hill and the '91 team members, Tony Barone got some good face time in that video, and I believe I recognized Joe Kennedy (who is still IMO the unsung hero of the Freddy Lind game because of his defense against Larry Miller in the overtime periods). If anyone finds a group photo of the '66 team reunion, please share it here.

killerleft
01-12-2016, 10:25 AM
I couldn't find any published photos of the '66 and '91 team members who were honored at the game on Saturday, either; but if you recorded the game telecast, there was a brief segment during halftime where they showed the gathering on the court. Although they focused mainly on Grant Hill and the '91 team members, Tony Barone got some good face time in that video, and I believe I recognized Joe Kennedy (who is still IMO the unsung hero of the Freddy Lind game because of his defense against Larry Miller in the overtime periods). If anyone finds a group photo of the '66 team reunion, please share it here.

I don't recall Bob Verga ever coming back to Duke. If I'm right, I wonder why this is so? Is he just not interested? Thinks his jersey ought to be in the rafters (I agree)? I remember trying to duplicate that strange shot of his when I was a kid. I was not successful.

Kfanarmy
01-12-2016, 12:50 PM
Yes, there is no doubt that hearing diminishes over time. But have you been going to games in Cameron for the past 15 years or so? Have you also not noticed the trend mentioned in my previous post regarding a seeming diminishment of crowd enthusiasm and vociferousness over the years? Am I on an island here?

I was just pulling your leg....sorry it wasn't obvious!

BLPOG
01-12-2016, 01:02 PM
That said, I don't know exactly when they restricted the students to just one side of the gym, but I imagine that alone makes it difficult to get as loud as it once was.

I think of the upstairs vs. student/downstairs noise as two separate subjects. Most of my thoughts over the years about noise in Cameron relates to the students, and I think I have a pretty good handle on why the noise level has declined. Sometimes people mention changing demographics at Duke and nationally, competing time commitments and the like, and all those things factor in, but I doubt their primacy as explanations of a decline in noise level or creativity.

To me, the decline centers around two specific items: the "loss" of section 19 and the replacement of the old suspended scoreboard at center court.

Student access to section 19 had been on the decline for years (I'm not sure exactly when the change became official), but it was still easy to get a seat in 19 in the 2005-2008 time frame and reasonably do-able in 2008-2010. "They" (you know, the guys behind the curtain) want those seats to go to VIPs, players' family and friends, etc. The benefits of having students there are obvious with respect to noise and really putting fan pressure on the other team (and their bench) and the difference is quite substantial in my opinion. My in-stadium memories mostly consist of student presence in that section being on the decline or gone, but the difference is something my father mentions every time we go to a game (he went to school with the '66 guys). Having the sound reverberate back and forth across the court is a big deal.

Occasionally I've mentioned my section 19 gripe to other folks, from line monitors to student managers to folks in the athletics offices. The response is usually that the change was justified because of decreased student attendance. I say that's a load of you-know-what. They did it to seat VIPs and used attendance as an ex post facto rationale. The elimination of section 19 is, IMO, a cause of decreased attendance. It raised the cost of a "good" student seat to extremely high levels (trust me, I felt those costs quite dearly as a vertically-challenged engineering student). What's more, the high cost in time paid by waiting in line for the very best seats only has a tenuous connection to actually getting that seat because of less-than-ideal organization by the line monitors (I don't mean that as a criticism of the line monitors per se, who have a tough task, but they often forced people to move far from their chosen spot while attempting to fit more students).

The issue with the scoreboard replacement is that it, like cell phones, distracts from the court. It does so partially through things that are actually good features, like team hype videos pre-game and instant replay, but unnecessarily through panning camera shots of attendees hoping to get on camera. It used to be that during warm-ups, timeouts, etc. people were relentlessly jeering the visitors or cheering our guys. That has declined considerably and I place the blame squarely on the psychology of "look at me, I'm on TV!".

On a different note, I wish I could help with a picture of the '66 guys, but I only got their backs. Unfortunately they oriented them facing opposite section 17. I better stop now before I launch into a another tirade against the VIP seats...

uh_no
01-12-2016, 01:28 PM
The response is usually that the change was justified because of decreased student attendance. I say that's a load of you-know-what. They did it to seat VIPs and used attendance as an ex post facto rationale. The elimination of section 19 is, IMO, a cause of decreased attendance.

It should be noted that those VIPs USED to be seated in what is now the band side graduate student section. That section is substantially louder and more active than the bench side undergrad seats were, at least when I was there in 2007 until they redid the seating ~2010.

When I was a ugrad, the non-tv side was where you went if you wanted to see the game and not do the standing jumping krazie thing. I understand that is a far cry from what it USED to be on that side of the gym, but by the time they removed that seating, that side of the gym was pretty dead. I see no problem in instead finding a way to get more grad students (who generally DO fill their sections) into the game...who are going to do the krazy thing.

Do you think it was beneficial to VIPs remove cushy endline seats? Do you think the VIPs would REALLY rather sit on padded bleachers rather than nice padded seats with plenty of legroom?

(here's a pic of them: http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000Dx3LBKzRNXI/s/750/750/ycj071221ajm-dukebuck017.jpg I know they still set up folding chairs there for the women's games...but they used to be for men's too)

In the end:
part of it was getting students behind the visitors basket in the second half
part of it was increasing the overall capacity of cameron (unofficially of course), which was divided among more VIP seats and more graduate seats
part of it was reallocating space to students who were actually showing up to the games.

I think you're vastly underrating the impact of declining attendance. Space in cameron is far too valuable to be left unoccupied by students during men's games. Efforts have been in place since at least 2007 to try to gauge student attendance before the game in order to sell or give away the excess seats (the much maligned "validation" system). I don't think the changes particularly affected the noise level (the loudest games I've been to were post-reconfiguration), and given the enthusiasm of the band side grad students, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back.

BLPOG
01-12-2016, 02:12 PM
It should be noted that those VIPs USED to be seated in what is now the band side graduate student section. That section is substantially louder and more active than the bench side undergrad seats were, at least when I was there in 2007 until they redid the seating ~2010.

When I was a ugrad, the non-tv side was where you went if you wanted to see the game and not do the standing jumping krazie thing. I understand that is a far cry from what it USED to be on that side of the gym, but by the time they removed that seating, that side of the gym was pretty dead. I see no problem in instead finding a way to get more grad students (who generally DO fill their sections) into the game...who are going to do the krazy thing.

Do you think it was beneficial to VIPs remove cushy endline seats? Do you think the VIPs would REALLY rather sit on padded bleachers rather than nice padded seats with plenty of legroom?

(here's a pic of them: http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000Dx3LBKzRNXI/s/750/750/ycj071221ajm-dukebuck017.jpg I know they still set up folding chairs there for the women's games...but they used to be for men's too)

In the end:
part of it was getting students behind the visitors basket in the second half
part of it was increasing the overall capacity of cameron (unofficially of course), which was divided among more VIP seats and more graduate seats
part of it was reallocating space to students who were actually showing up to the games.

I think you're vastly underrating the impact of declining attendance. Space in cameron is far too valuable to be left unoccupied by students during men's games. Efforts have been in place since at least 2007 to try to gauge student attendance before the game in order to sell or give away the excess seats (the much maligned "validation" system). I don't think the changes particularly affected the noise level (the loudest games I've been to were post-reconfiguration), and given the enthusiasm of the band side grad students, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back.

I love the fact that they put additional grad student seating next to the band, but that change happened shortly after, not concurrently with, the the displacement of undergraduates in 19 by VIPs. There are also still VIPs seated at the endline.

I'm not saying there weren't other factors causing a decline in attendance - I'm saying that the removal of access to section 19 made it much worse. It exacerbated every negative aspect of going to the games: (1) increased waiting time, (2) decrease in marginal benefit of showing up earlier, (3) less control over the quality of one's seat once at the game, (4) less space to actually move around a bit while cheering, etc. By the time they closed 19 to students, yes, most of the students over there were less animated, but that was largely because they were more spread out among older fans, VIPs, and opposing fans. Most people feel less comfortable being very vocal in that situation. Additionally, the prospect of a better seat and/or experience also acts as a draw to get people to the door, at which point they don't mind sticking around in a "crap" seat.

I'll freely admit that I'm something of a fanatic on this topic and it's unlikely my opinion will be swayed even by good reasoning. Maybe it's because I liked 19 and I was loud during my few times standing in that section. Nonetheless, I think my reasoning holds up at least well enough to justify letting some students back into the center part of section 19. What do you think the odds are of that happening? I'd say zero, and there's no way it's because there are too few students in attendance to seat some there.

Rich
01-12-2016, 02:27 PM
It should be noted that those VIPs USED to be seated in what is now the band side graduate student section. That section is substantially louder and more active than the bench side undergrad seats were, at least when I was there in 2007 until they redid the seating ~2010.

When I was a ugrad, the non-tv side was where you went if you wanted to see the game and not do the standing jumping krazie thing. I understand that is a far cry from what it USED to be on that side of the gym, but by the time they removed that seating, that side of the gym was pretty dead. I see no problem in instead finding a way to get more grad students (who generally DO fill their sections) into the game...who are going to do the krazy thing.
Do you think it was beneficial to VIPs remove cushy endline seats? Do you think the VIPs would REALLY rather sit on padded bleachers rather than nice padded seats with plenty of legroom?

(here's a pic of them: http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000Dx3LBKzRNXI/s/750/750/ycj071221ajm-dukebuck017.jpg I know they still set up folding chairs there for the women's games...but they used to be for men's too)

In the end:
part of it was getting students behind the visitors basket in the second half
part of it was increasing the overall capacity of cameron (unofficially of course), which was divided among more VIP seats and more graduate seats
part of it was reallocating space to students who were actually showing up to the games.

I think you're vastly underrating the impact of declining attendance. Space in cameron is far too valuable to be left unoccupied by students during men's games. Efforts have been in place since at least 2007 to try to gauge student attendance before the game in order to sell or give away the excess seats (the much maligned "validation" system). I don't think the changes particularly affected the noise level (the loudest games I've been to were post-reconfiguration), and given the enthusiasm of the band side grad students, I'm not sure I'd ever want to go back.

As many on this Board know, in the '80's the bench side was actually the rowdier side. BOG sat behind the visitor bench and was all kinds of disruptive. I used to sit with my House CC mates on that same side behind the scorer's table, right at center court. Best seats in the house, IMO, because we watched the game from the TV angle and were also able to watch the majority of the students do their thing on the other side. We were plenty loud and boisterous and stood/jumped the whole game. Going to Cameron was a great workout! We jokingly called the students on the other side "media whores" because all they really cared about was getting on TV. I think having students surround the court on all sides made it very claustrophobic for the visiting team, especially with the BOGgers screaming in their heads during timeouts. Good times!

Now get off my lawn!

uh_no
01-12-2016, 02:35 PM
I love the fact that they put additional grad student seating next to the band, but that change happened shortly after, not concurrently with, the the displacement of undergraduates in 19 by VIPs. There are also still VIPs seated at the endline.


This is wrong.

As a student during the change, that is not my recollection. Further, the chronicle backs up my memory:
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2009/09/cameron-changes-affect-student-seating

Both changes occurred before the 09-10 season.

The endline floor seats went unchanged, and are the same as they ever were. The article and quotes from K make it clear that the pervading justification was getting students behind the both baskets.

I don't believe the undergraduate allocation changed significantly though, as if memory serves (though it's fading) the corner of 17 next to 20 used to be grad students, and became u-grad to compensate for the loss of 19, leading to the only major change being a slight increase in grad student seats, since more could fit where the cushy chairs in 18 used to be

BLPOG
01-12-2016, 02:46 PM
This is wrong.

As a student during the change, that is not my recollection. Further, the chronicle backs up my memory:
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2009/09/cameron-changes-affect-student-seating

Both changes occurred before the 09-10 season.

The endline floor seats went unchanged, and are the same as they ever were. The article and quotes from K make it clear that the pervading justification was getting students behind the both baskets.

I don't believe the undergraduate allocation changed significantly though, as if memory serves (though it's fading) the corner of 17 next to 20 used to be grad students, and became u-grad to compensate for the loss of 19, leading to the only major change being a slight increase in grad student seats, since more could fit where the cushy chairs in 18 used to be

Mea culpa on the timing of the grad student seating change. I thought it was one year later, thank you for the correction. [Edit with a minor quibble: it was already difficult, although possible, to go to 19 by that time. I was told more than once to leave 19 during 2008-2009, which was prior to that change.]

I think you are right about the corner of 17 but also can't recall exactly. However, my point regarding the lost 19 seats is not so much the change in total number of available seats but in their quality. The number of available "good" seats is smaller and the connection between position in line and getting a good seat is weakened. It was also getting harder to time cheers because undergrads couldn't see someone across from them with whom to sync timing. At the ends you can see grad students and as I recall the timing got a little better when they added grad students next to the band, but for many people in 17 their views are obstructed.