MLB Hall of Fame class of 2016 [Archive]

View Full Version : MLB Hall of Fame class of 2016

JasonEvans

01-05-2016, 10:11 AM

Just like last year (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34887-MLB-Hall-of-Fame-class-of-2015/page3&highlight=hall+fame), let's start a thread for the Hall this year. The voting will be revealed later this afternoon. There is a cool website where some guy has tracked all the ballots made public (https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!7156&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AC7uZHAmcVGWgwE) so far. It is something like a third of all the ballots so it should give us a very good idea of who is going to make it and who will not. Here are the results he has tracked so far from more than 150 public ballots.

Ken Griffey Jr - 100% of public ballots
Mike Piazza - 86.3%
Jeff Bagwell - 79.4%
Tim Raines - 78.1%
Trevor Hoffman - 61.9%
Curt Schilling - 59.4%
Mike Mussina - 53.8%
Barry Bonds - 48.8%
Roger Clemens - 48.1%
Alan Trammel - 46.9%
Edgar Martinez 46.9%

These results would seem to make Griffey and Piazza locks to make the 75% threshold to be in the Hall. Bagwell and Raines will come close, but may miss as the public ballots almost always overstate support. The fogeys who only vote for one player or who leave their ballot blank never bother to publicly release their ballots. For example, Raines was on more than 60% of public ballots last year but his final vote total was only 55%.

Worth noting that Alan Trammell is on the ballot for the last time. So, it is off to the Vet committee for him. Mark McGuire (who is on 13.6% of public ballots) is also on the ballot for the last time, I believe. Sammy Sosa, who is on just 8.6% of public ballots, is in serious danger of not reaching the 5% threshold for staying on the ballot one more year.

-Jason "I am sure some jack wagon will leave Griffey off his ballot to make a point or something like that, but I'd love to see Junior be the first to reach 100%" Evans

Blue in the Face

01-05-2016, 11:36 AM

I don't care for Murray Chass. That's a fairly significant understatement. But whether one shares that opinion or not, him likening criticism of the BBWAA in general, and himself specifically, to ISIS (http://www.murraychass.com/?p=9701), is, well, pretty damm stupid.

At any rate, Griffey and Piazza. Bagwell is 1 or 2 years away, Raines may make it next year, but I think he'll run out of time. Lord Scrapford Von Gritt probably doesn't have much chance, despite all that great hustle.

weezie

01-05-2016, 05:40 PM

I'm sure Tram will get shafted. Pitiful.

DU82

01-05-2016, 08:58 PM

I'm sure Tram will get shafted. Pitiful.

He'll join with Bobby Grich to become the double play combo that most deserves to be enshrined, but isn't. (Sweet Lou is close, but wasn't quite the player Grich was. That's not to say the Whitaker shouldn't be in, either. All three are well above the floor that enshrinees have established.)

JasonEvans

01-05-2016, 09:54 PM

The voting will be revealed later this afternoon.

Oooops. Actual vote totals to be released Wednesday at 6pm ET.

SCMatt33

01-05-2016, 09:57 PM

gurufrisbee

01-05-2016, 11:59 PM

duke74

01-06-2016, 08:14 AM

Sorry, but I don't want to see Griffey be the first one to be unanimous. For a number of reasons.

I also won't feel too bad if Raines misses. I feel like he's a little overrated.

But I will be happy to see Piazza and Bagwell make it. Along with Griffey it will be nice to see fringe steroid guys getting in.

Define this term please. No proof, but innuendo? Used only a couple of times? Accusations and assumptions do not a violation make...(see the 30 for 30 thread, for example)

I for one am hoping for Mike to get in...deserves it..and certainly not in the same bucket as Bonds, Sosa, Clemons, McGuire, et al.

JasonEvans

01-06-2016, 08:46 AM

But I will be happy to see Piazza and Bagwell make it. Along with Griffey it will be nice to see fringe steroid guys getting in.

I've heard the (g)rumblings about Piazza and Bagwell regarding PEDs, but has anyone ever accused Junior of juicing? His body type never changed at all over his career and he never experienced a sudden jump in productivity that was characteristic of a steroid user. What's more, his body began to break down when he hit 30 and he lost hundreds of games to injury over the back half of his career, a time that coincided with the rise of steroids as a way of avoiding precisely that kind of thing.

In other words, if you were to construct all the likely signs of a steroid/PED user, Griffey would check exactly zero of the boxes despite him being an obvious candidate to benefit from PEDs at the time the PED craze was at its height.

-Jason "I doubt we will ever know for certain, but I would strongly, strongly doubt that Junior was a PED user... if he was, he needed a new prescription because they didn't seem to help him at all" Evans

gurufrisbee

01-06-2016, 12:00 PM

Fringe steroid - never actually busted for it, but suspected or talked about.

No, Griffey never has been suspected like Piazza or Bagwell. Yes, he has been suspected. It's not really surprising. He was a major power hitter during the steroids era. He publically came out in support of Bonds multiple times. He did see a substantial drop off in his health and power numbers when the rules were changed so that you would get called out by name if caught using steroids. He was in Seattle - where for years they lead the league in steroid users and where he was teammates with A-Rod during his power years. And then he came back to Seattle where he couldn't hit anything at age 39 in a now heavy pitchers park - but still hit 19 home runs. There was actually a lot of the boxes checked off - including the injuries - which people have always used as an excuse to prove he did not use, but steroids don't help bones not break and he did return quicker and more often from injuries that have wiped out a lot of other guys too.

In the end, no I don't really think he did it. But to pretend he doesn't actually fit the profile is crazy. Just like Hank Aaron. It's funny how some players actually perfectly fit it but rarely get suspected.

Ultimately for me I don't want him as unanimous because while he is definitely HOF, the voters have always treated unanimous-ness as being a whole other level of greatness that NO ONE has ever deserved before. Griffey was never even good after age 30, he never led his team to a World Series (rarely the playoffs at all), and he only ever won one MVP. He's just not up THAT high, IMO.

Blue in the Face

01-06-2016, 12:31 PM

Fun fact about Griffey and the hall of fame. He will be the first #1 overall draft pick to make the hall of fame. Chipper Jones will join him in 2 years. Unless attitudes change significantly, A-Rod won't get there, so then you're looking at Mauer (possibly, but the way he's aging I think he'll be short), and Harper (slam dunk, except for how much can happen between now and then). Guys like J Upton, Price and Strasburg are all very good players, but they'd have to both improve and age really well. (Price might just need to age well without necessarily improving).

I'm still holding out hope for Brien Taylor...

duke74

01-06-2016, 01:47 PM

Fringe steroid - never actually busted for it, but suspected or talked about.

So the standard for exclusion has now become "suspected or talked about." Think this is an inappropriate standard, but that's just me.

Hope they didn't jaywalk too...

Dev11

01-06-2016, 01:56 PM

In the end, no I don't really think he did it. But to pretend he doesn't actually fit the profile is crazy. Just like Hank Aaron. It's funny how some players actually perfectly fit it but rarely get suspected.

Jason's explanation of why Junior doesn't fit the profile is actually spot on, and Hank Aaron used PEDs.

The guy who runs the Hall of Fame tracker, Ryan Thibodaux, was on the Baseball Prospectus podcast Effectively Wild recently and talked about trends in the voting, including his own informed speculation about what will happen since they culled the voting list. I recommend checking out that episode if this interests you at all.

It looks like we're going to get Junior and Piazza. Raines and Bagwell are probably close enough to get in next year.

Mal

01-06-2016, 02:31 PM

I'm sorry, there are just so many factual errors and logical fallacies in Guru's post that I have to take it on directly.

Yes, he has been suspected. By whom? Can you point us to prominent writers that publicly voiced their suspicions w/r/t Griffey, or otherwise substantiate this? One or two outliers doesn't count. 'Cause I sure don't remember it. In fact, I recall quite the opposite - most writers wondering how many homeruns Jr. might have hit had he taken PED's, or lamenting how his numbers don't stick out as much as they otherwise might have, as one of the few obviously clean players in an era of funny numbers.

He was a major power hitter during the steroids era. And? So were Jim Thome and Frank Thomas. What difference does birth year make? Randy Johnson was a major power pitcher during the steroids era. Are we suspicious of him because he played at the same time as Clemens? This is absurd.

He publically came out in support of Bonds multiple times. So what? None of the more obvious reasons he might express solidarity for a fellow player are at play here? Now not publicly shunning another player for doing something wrong is reason to suspect guilt on the part of another?

He did see a substantial drop off in his health and power numbers when the rules were changed so that you would get called out by name if caught using steroids. Incorrect on multiple counts. And by "incorrect" I mean completely backwards. For one, the rules were changed when he was 34 years old and already past his prime. In addition, the bulk of his injury problems occurred in '02 through '04, before the steroid policy went into effect. After the new 'roid policy came out, he returned in 2005 and hit 35 homers in 128 games.

He was in Seattle - where for years they lead the league in steroid users and where he was teammates with A-Rod during his power years. In what quantifiable way did Seattle "lead the league in steroid users?" And what difference does being Rodriguez's teammate make? Should we suspect Ichiro, too? How about John Olerud, and Dan Wilson? Also, Rodriguez's admitted 'roid usage was after Griffey had already left for Cincinnati. Please explain how that suggests that during 1997-99, when Rodriguez was a teenaged rookie and Griffey was already the best player in baseball, ARod's toxicity somehow tainted Jr.

And then he came back to Seattle where he couldn't hit anything at age 39 in a now heavy pitchers park - but still hit 19 home runs. Are you seriously arguing that a guy who once hit 56 homeruns two seasons in a row hitting 19, at the cost of the highest K rate of his career and a .214 BA, at an advanced age is cause for suspicion? He was clearly swinging for the fences. Griffey's statlines are TEXTBOOK traditional aging decline. His final five seasons he hit .247/.340/.444. His OPS fell almost every single season after he turned 29 years old. In what world is that even mildly suggestive of hanging on by juicing or having an unusual end of career bloom?

There was actually a lot of the boxes checked off - including the injuries - which people have always used as an excuse to prove he did not use, but steroids don't help bones not break and he did return quicker and more often from injuries that have wiped out a lot of other guys too. Citations and evidence, please. I was not aware that partial patella tears ended a lot of careers. I'm also not sure how shutting down in June or July and not returning until the following Spring Training constitutes returning "quicker" than normal for a hamstring tear.

But to pretend he doesn't actually fit the profile is crazy. I would submit quite the opposite - in no way does Ken Griffey, Jr. "fit the profile" and to say otherwise strikes this observer as the "crazy" position. I mean, I'm jaded enough to never count out the possibility of any athlete having been involved in something like PED's, but there is literally less reasonable basis for suspicion, based on the numbers or public records, with this particular athlete, than almost any I can think of.

the voters have always treated unanimous-ness as being a whole other level of greatness that NO ONE has ever deserved before. Griffey was never even good after age 30, he never led his team to a World Series (rarely the playoffs at all), and he only ever won one MVP. He's just not up THAT high, IMO. First of all, I thought you were saying above that Griffey hitting 19 homers at age 39 was suspiciously good, which is quite the opposite of "never even good after age 30." Look at his stat line from 2005, and please describe to us how that's not even good.

To the broader point, though, the argument that because HOF voters have taken a stupid view of their votes in the past, they should continue to do so, is silly. What if the voters had always voted for minority players at a lower clip than white players? That should then remain the trend? Either a player's a Hall of Famer or not. There is simply NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER that Ken Griffey, Jr. shouldn't be a Hall of Famer. He is indisputably one of the 4 or 5 best CFs to ever play the game. Ergo, there is no reason that any single voter should not be voting for him. Likewise, we should have had 2 unanimously approved players last year.

rasputin

01-06-2016, 02:54 PM

I'm sorry, there are just so many factual errors and logical fallacies in Guru's post that I have to take it on directly.

By whom? Can you point us to prominent writers that publicly voiced their suspicions w/r/t Griffey, or otherwise substantiate this? One or two outliers doesn't count. 'Cause I sure don't remember it. In fact, I recall quite the opposite - most writers wondering how many homeruns Jr. might have hit had he taken PED's, or lamenting how his numbers don't stick out as much as they otherwise might have, as one of the few obviously clean players in an era of funny numbers.

And? So were Jim Thome and Frank Thomas. What difference does birth year make? Randy Johnson was a major power pitcher during the steroids era. Are we suspicious of him because he played at the same time as Clemens? This is absurd.

So what? None of the more obvious reasons he might express solidarity for a fellow player are at play here? Now not publicly shunning another player for doing something wrong is reason to suspect guilt on the part of another?

Incorrect on multiple counts. And by "incorrect" I mean completely backwards. For one, the rules were changed when he was 34 years old and already past his prime. In addition, the bulk of his injury problems occurred in '02 through '04, before the steroid policy went into effect. After the new 'roid policy came out, he returned in 2005 and hit 35 homers in 128 games.

In what quantifiable way did Seattle "lead the league in steroid users?" And what difference does being Rodriguez's teammate make? Should we suspect Ichiro, too? How about John Olerud, and Dan Wilson? Also, Rodriguez's admitted 'roid usage was after Griffey had already left for Cincinnati. Please explain how that suggests that during 1997-99, when Rodriguez was a teenaged rookie and Griffey was already the best player in baseball, ARod's toxicity somehow tainted Jr.

Are you seriously arguing that a guy who once hit 56 homeruns two seasons in a row hitting 19, at the cost of the highest K rate of his career and a .214 BA, at an advanced age is cause for suspicion? He was clearly swinging for the fences. Griffey's statlines are TEXTBOOK traditional aging decline. His final five seasons he hit .247/.340/.444. His OPS fell almost every single season after he turned 29 years old. In what world is that even mildly suggestive of hanging on by juicing or having an unusual end of career bloom?

Citations and evidence, please. I was not aware that partial patella tears ended a lot of careers. I'm also not sure how shutting down in June or July and not returning until the following Spring Training constitutes returning "quicker" than normal for a hamstring tear.

I would submit quite the opposite - in no way does Ken Griffey, Jr. "fit the profile" and to say otherwise strikes this observer as the "crazy" position. I mean, I'm jaded enough to never count out the possibility of any athlete having been involved in something like PED's, but there is literally less reasonable basis for suspicion, based on the numbers or public records, with this particular athlete, than almost any I can think of.

First of all, I thought you were saying above that Griffey hitting 19 homers at age 39 was suspiciously good, which is quite the opposite of "never even good after age 30." Look at his stat line from 2005, and please describe to us how that's not even good.

To the broader point, though, the argument that because HOF voters have taken a stupid view of their votes in the past, they should continue to do so, is silly. What if the voters had always voted for minority players at a lower clip than white players? That should then remain the trend? Either a player's a Hall of Famer or not. There is simply NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER that Ken Griffey, Jr. shouldn't be a Hall of Famer. He is indisputably one of the 4 or 5 best CFs to ever play the game. Ergo, there is no reason that any single voter should not be voting for him. Likewise, we should have had 2 unanimously approved players last year.
I agree with almost everything here. One quibble. Griffey is not indisputably one of the 4 or 5 best CF's ever to play the game. I'd rank at least five above him:
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays
Oscar Charleston
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio

and possibly a sixth (Tris Speaker). But the rest of your point is well taken. Griffey is a HOF'er, no doubt.

elvis14

01-06-2016, 03:22 PM

Blue in the Face

01-06-2016, 04:01 PM

I looked up online and it looks like each voter gets to vote for up to 10 guys. I was just curious, anyone know if most voters generally use all 10? Looking at the ballot, I think I could find 10 guys I'd vote in (starting with Griffey).
On the spreadsheet Jason linked, in each of the last 2 years, about 50% of the ballots made public had 10 votes. It appears to have been much lower in 2014. Given that the top players typically have higher %'s on the public ballots than overall, presumably the total number of voters using all 10 votes is lower than what's on the spreadsheet.

Tom B.

01-06-2016, 04:40 PM

I'm sorry, there are just so many factual errors and logical fallacies in Guru's post that I have to take it on directly.

By whom? Can you point us to prominent writers that publicly voiced their suspicions w/r/t Griffey, or otherwise substantiate this? One or two outliers doesn't count. 'Cause I sure don't remember it. In fact, I recall quite the opposite - most writers wondering how many homeruns Jr. might have hit had he taken PED's, or lamenting how his numbers don't stick out as much as they otherwise might have, as one of the few obviously clean players in an era of funny numbers.

And? So were Jim Thome and Frank Thomas. What difference does birth year make? Randy Johnson was a major power pitcher during the steroids era. Are we suspicious of him because he played at the same time as Clemens? This is absurd.

So what? None of the more obvious reasons he might express solidarity for a fellow player are at play here? Now not publicly shunning another player for doing something wrong is reason to suspect guilt on the part of another?

Incorrect on multiple counts. And by "incorrect" I mean completely backwards. For one, the rules were changed when he was 34 years old and already past his prime. In addition, the bulk of his injury problems occurred in '02 through '04, before the steroid policy went into effect. After the new 'roid policy came out, he returned in 2005 and hit 35 homers in 128 games.

In what quantifiable way did Seattle "lead the league in steroid users?" And what difference does being Rodriguez's teammate make? Should we suspect Ichiro, too? How about John Olerud, and Dan Wilson? Also, Rodriguez's admitted 'roid usage was after Griffey had already left for Cincinnati. Please explain how that suggests that during 1997-99, when Rodriguez was a teenaged rookie and Griffey was already the best player in baseball, ARod's toxicity somehow tainted Jr.

Are you seriously arguing that a guy who once hit 56 homeruns two seasons in a row hitting 19, at the cost of the highest K rate of his career and a .214 BA, at an advanced age is cause for suspicion? He was clearly swinging for the fences. Griffey's statlines are TEXTBOOK traditional aging decline. His final five seasons he hit .247/.340/.444. His OPS fell almost every single season after he turned 29 years old. In what world is that even mildly suggestive of hanging on by juicing or having an unusual end of career bloom?

Citations and evidence, please. I was not aware that partial patella tears ended a lot of careers. I'm also not sure how shutting down in June or July and not returning until the following Spring Training constitutes returning "quicker" than normal for a hamstring tear.

I would submit quite the opposite - in no way does Ken Griffey, Jr. "fit the profile" and to say otherwise strikes this observer as the "crazy" position. I mean, I'm jaded enough to never count out the possibility of any athlete having been involved in something like PED's, but there is literally less reasonable basis for suspicion, based on the numbers or public records, with this particular athlete, than almost any I can think of.

First of all, I thought you were saying above that Griffey hitting 19 homers at age 39 was suspiciously good, which is quite the opposite of "never even good after age 30." Look at his stat line from 2005, and please describe to us how that's not even good.

To the broader point, though, the argument that because HOF voters have taken a stupid view of their votes in the past, they should continue to do so, is silly. What if the voters had always voted for minority players at a lower clip than white players? That should then remain the trend? Either a player's a Hall of Famer or not. There is simply NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER that Ken Griffey, Jr. shouldn't be a Hall of Famer. He is indisputably one of the 4 or 5 best CFs to ever play the game. Ergo, there is no reason that any single voter should not be voting for him. Likewise, we should have had 2 unanimously approved players last year.

https://media.giphy.com/media/FD6qC92PEO6dO/giphy.gif

Blue in the Face

01-06-2016, 06:13 PM

duke74

01-06-2016, 06:17 PM

Griffey with highest % ever (beating my guy, Tom Terrific) at 99.3% (who would have left him off the ballot - 3 voters did?) Must be those "anti-fringe PED user" voters)

Glad Mike got in. Was a mainstay for my Mets and brought credibility upon arrival.

duke74

01-06-2016, 06:18 PM

Griffey gets the highest % ever at 99.3% (3 omissions), and Piazza joins him. Can't yet find a link to see how close other guys got.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14517514/ken-griffey-jr-mike-piazza-voted-cooperstown-baseball-hall-famers

This has some other %s. http://www.sbnation.com/2016/1/6/10702906/ken-griffey-mike-piazza-mlb-hall-of-fame-2016

Blue in the Face

01-06-2016, 06:22 PM

This has some other %s. http://www.sbnation.com/2016/1/6/10702906/ken-griffey-mike-piazza-mlb-hall-of-fame-2016
Thanks, here's the full list - http://baseballhall.org/hof/class-of-2016.

Looks like Bagwell, Raines and Hoffman will all go in next year. Very high percentage for Hoffman in his first year, more than I would have guessed.

throatybeard

01-06-2016, 06:30 PM

Was Gurufrisbee one of the three 'no' votes?

pfrduke

01-06-2016, 06:58 PM

I hope 2 of the 3 people who didn't vote for Griffey are the two people who voted for David Eckstein.

weezie

01-06-2016, 09:05 PM

Was Gurufrisbee one of the three 'no' votes?

Throaty sighting!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

01-06-2016, 10:01 PM

Seriously, what sort of curmudgeon doesn't vote for Griffey? Disparages the process.

devildeac

01-06-2016, 10:41 PM

Seriously, what sort of curmudgeon doesn't vote for Griffey? Disparages the process.

You called:

5834

Well, I don't have a vote but you did say curmudgeon...

;)

JasonEvans

01-07-2016, 12:34 PM

I hope 2 of the 3 people who didn't vote for Griffey are the two people who voted for David Eckstein.

Hey, Eck made the All-Star game twice. If you don't think that is the resume of a Hall of Famer, I'm not sure what I can say to convince you.

He was probably supported by the same 2 people who voted for Aaron Boone in 2015 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2015.shtml).

-Jason "most outrageous vote in recent years*... in 2014 someone voted for Jacque Jones (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesja05.shtml) for the Hall... that should be grounds for permanent vote revocation" Evans

*- In 2005, Jim Abbott got 13 votes, an absurd number for someone with his playing career... but the whole 1-hand thing clearly impacted those votes and I have no problem with that

davekay1971

01-07-2016, 12:48 PM

Seriously, what sort of curmudgeon doesn't vote for Griffey? Disparages the process.

Yep. That's gotta be those bitter killjoys who simply won't vote for ANY first ballot candidate, no matter who they are. Get over it, Griffey's about the easiest choice for the HOF since, well, anyone in the last 20 years.

OldPhiKap

01-07-2016, 04:47 PM

Yep. That's gotta be those bitter killjoys who simply won't vote for ANY first ballot candidate, no matter who they are. Get over it, Griffey's about the easiest choice for the HOF since, well, anyone in the last 20 years.

Well, I would say that Greg Madddux was the easiest choice in the last 20 years.

8× All-Star (1988, 1992, 1994–1998, 2000)
World Series champion (1995)
4× NL Cy Young Award (1992–1995)
18× Gold Glove Award (1990–2002, 2004–2008)
3× MLB wins leader (1992, 1994, 1995)
4× MLB ERA leader (1993–1995, 1998)

And I seem to recall some voter saying that he didn't vote for Maddux because he didn't think anyone should be unanimous. My view then, and the same with Junior, is that voters like that should lose their rights to vote. That is asinine.

davekay1971

01-07-2016, 05:06 PM

Well, I would say that Greg Madddux was the easiest choice in the last 20 years.

8× All-Star (1988, 1992, 1994–1998, 2000)
World Series champion (1995)
4× NL Cy Young Award (1992–1995)
18× Gold Glove Award (1990–2002, 2004–2008)
3× MLB wins leader (1992, 1994, 1995)
4× MLB ERA leader (1993–1995, 1998)

And I seem to recall some voter saying that he didn't vote for Maddux because he didn't think anyone should be unanimous. My view then, and the same with Junior, is that voters like that should lose their rights to vote. That is asinine.

Point taken on Maddux. And yes, agreed that voters with a view like that should be stripped of their voting rights and forced to shout out of their front door every morning: "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

duke74

01-07-2016, 05:26 PM

Mets posted that earlier today. Our second (Seaver). (Although Gil Hodges should be in....unpaid political advertisement)

DU82

01-07-2016, 06:21 PM

Mets posted that earlier today. Our second (Seaver). (Although Gil Hodges should be in...unpaid political advertisement)

Going from memory, other HOFers who played for the Mets include: Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Yogi Berra, Warren Spahn, Eddie Murray, Roberto Alomar, Willie Mays, Gary Carter, Rickey Henderson, Nolan Ryan.

Don't you consider ALL of these Mets first? :) (OK, maybe not Alomar.)

duke74

01-07-2016, 07:09 PM

Going from memory, other HOFers who played for the Mets include: Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Yogi Berra, Warren Spahn, Eddie Murray, Roberto Alomar, Willie Mays, Gary Carter, Rickey Henderson, Nolan Ryan.

Don't you consider ALL of these Mets first? :) (OK, maybe not Alomar.)

I guess I used the criteria of whom actually is designated in the HoF as a Met, not just those who wore the uniform for a time. Of course the others played for the Mets...usually at the back end of a great career. The only one who MIGHT (I say might) have been in his prime, played for a reasonable period for us, and thus could have gone in as a Met was the Kid - Gary Carter - who had great seasons for us and brought credibility to the mid 80s team (that SHOULD have won more than one WS).

Duke was a PR thing for the new Mets in '62 (with Gil Hodges - the Dodger thing) - my first year following them in the Polo Grounds. Richie Ashburn (Phils) the same. Yogi and Warren were at the tail end of their careers and Yogi later managed us. Eddie and Roberto had basically their last paydays with us, while Nolan was a raw rookie on the Seaver-led WS team in '69 (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry and Ryan - this year's SP brought back memories of those guys). Ryan also was part of possibly our worst trade ever, for an aging Jim Fregosi brought in to move from SS to 3B. Ricky had some good years for us, but he was never a "Met" - more an A or Yankee.

And Willie. Maybe the best of the NYC "big-three" - Willie, Micky and the Duke (sounds like a song, doesn't it?). His tenure here though was sad. I still have visions of him falling down in CF in the '73 WS, along with Millan letting a grounder through his legs. It was just sad...

You forgot one other guy in the HoF - and who played for and managed us - Joe Torre, although he is of course better known for his successes in the Bronx.

tbyers11

01-07-2016, 07:12 PM

Mets posted that earlier today. Our second (Seaver). (Although Gil Hodges should be in...unpaid political advertisement)

If Hodges got into the HOF wouldn't he go in as a Dodger?

Though he was the manager for the '69 Mets, I don't think his managerial career was long or distinguished enough to get in that way.

Edit: Asked and answered while typing

duke74

01-07-2016, 07:21 PM

If Hodges got into the HOF wouldn't he go in as a Dodger?

Though he was the manager for the '69 Mets, I don't think his managerial career was long or distinguished enough to get in that way.

Edit: Asked and answered while typing

Probably right...He just holds a place in all Metnik hearts for '69. And most of our Dads (and perhaps Moms) were probably Dodger fans prior to the move West...

OldPhiKap

01-07-2016, 07:34 PM

Sidd Finch would have been the second Met HOF'er behind Tom Terrific, if only he had been real.

DU82

01-07-2016, 08:01 PM

I guess I used the criteria of whom actually is designated in the HoF as a Met, not just those who wore the uniform for a time. Of course the others played for the Mets...usually at the back end of a great career. The only one who MIGHT (I say might) have been in his prime, played for a reasonable period for us, and thus could have gone in as a Met was the Kid - Gary Carter - who had great seasons for us and brought credibility to the mid 80s team (that SHOULD have won more than one WS).

Duke was a PR thing for the new Mets in '62 (with Gil Hodges - the Dodger thing) - my first year following them in the Polo Grounds. Richie Ashburn (Phils) the same. Yogi and Warren were at the tail end of their careers and Yogi later managed us. Eddie and Roberto had basically their last paydays with us, while Nolan was a raw rookie on the Seaver-led WS team in '69 (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry and Ryan - this year's SP brought back memories of those guys). Ryan also was part of possibly our worst trade ever, for an aging Jim Fregosi brought in to move from SS to 3B. Ricky had some good years for us, but he was never a "Met" - more an A or Yankee.

And Willie. Maybe the best of the NYC "big-three" - Willie, Micky and the Duke (sounds like a song, doesn't it?). His tenure here though was sad. I still have visions of him falling down in CF in the '73 WS, along with Millan letting a grounder through his legs. It was just sad...

You forgot one other guy in the HoF - and who played for and managed us - Joe Torre, although he is of course better known for his successes in the Bronx.

I did put in a smiley face when I said they were ALL Mets first. I agree, Carter's the only other one who could have chosen a Mets hat, but theHOF felt the Expos wouldn't have one otherwise, I guess. (Not sure what hat Andre has, and perhaps Raines will have an Expos hat when he finally makes it.)

Torre went in as a manager, so I wasn't considering his playing career, although many felt he should be in as a player as well (not that they would induct you twice like Springfield does.). I think he's the only HOF caliber player who also had a Hall of Fame managing career. Most top players have been poor managers.

duke74

01-07-2016, 08:15 PM

I did put in a smiley face when I said they were ALL Mets first. I agree, Carter's the only other one who could have chosen a Mets hat, but theHOF felt the Expos wouldn't have one otherwise, I guess. (Not sure what hat Andre has, and perhaps Raines will have an Expos hat when he finally makes it.)

Torre went in as a manager, so I wasn't considering his playing career, although many felt he should be in as a player as well (not that they would induct you twice like Springfield does.). I think he's the only HOF caliber player who also had a Hall of Fame managing career. Most top players have been poor managers.

I caught the smiley face. Was just in an expansive mood I guess.

As for Andre, per Wikipedia, "Dawson was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2010, his ninth year of eligibility, rising from an initial vote total of 45.3% in 2002 to 77.9% in 2010. Dawson's Hall of Fame plaque depicts him with a Montreal Expos cap."

The Kid went in in 2003. While he expressed the desire to be enshrined with the Mets cap, the decision was the Hall's. I think they believed that his admission was based on performance in Montreal vs NY, so they determined that he should be shown as an Expo. (12 years an Expo, 5 a Met) I also think he joked that they should have one of those "two logo'd" hats so he could have both the Expos and the Mets on the cap. He'll always be a Met to us, especially with his contributions in '86 and his skills, leadership, grace and enthusiasm. NYC grieved when he died in 2012 after a nine month battle with brain cancer.

OldPhiKap

01-07-2016, 08:28 PM

I grew up as a Met's fan. I am the proud owner of a Sidd Finch rookie card:

5836

And was able to take this picture from spring training back in the day:

5837

Ah, what could have been . . . .

duke74

01-07-2016, 09:24 PM

I grew up as a Met's fan. I am the proud owner of a Sidd Finch rookie card:

5836

And was able to take this picture from spring training back in the day:

5837

Ah, what could have been . . . .

Well played.

Reilly

01-07-2016, 10:56 PM

Going from memory, other HOFers who played for the Mets include ....

I was at the HOF last summer, and they sold some team-specific HOF shirts. I was amazed at the completeness of the shirts, listing every person in the HOF with a connection to the team. For example, the orange Orioles shirt included Whitey Herzog listed on the back as a HOF Oriole (along w/ the likes of Brooks, Cal, etc ...). Dorrel Norman Elvert Herzog played two seasons with the Orioles and of course was inducted as a manager (never managing the O's).

Blue in the Face

01-08-2016, 10:27 AM

You forgot one other guy in the HoF - and who played for and managed us - Joe Torre, although he is of course better known for his successes in the Bronx.
You both left out Pedro, probably my favorite pitcher* I ever got to watch - strong words from a yankee fan.

*Well, starter. Mariano is my favorite player, possibly in any sport.

duke74

01-08-2016, 10:46 AM

You both left out Pedro, probably my favorite pitcher* I ever got to watch - strong words from a yankee fan.

*Well, starter. Mariano is my favorite player, possibly in any sport.

Good point. His signing was important for us on a number of levels, including what he brought in performance and credibility, even though he was at the back end of his great career.

rasputin

01-08-2016, 10:54 AM

I guess I used the criteria of whom actually is designated in the HoF as a Met, not just those who wore the uniform for a time. Of course the others played for the Mets...usually at the back end of a great career. The only one who MIGHT (I say might) have been in his prime, played for a reasonable period for us, and thus could have gone in as a Met was the Kid - Gary Carter - who had great seasons for us and brought credibility to the mid 80s team (that SHOULD have won more than one WS).

Duke was a PR thing for the new Mets in '62 (with Gil Hodges - the Dodger thing) - my first year following them in the Polo Grounds. Richie Ashburn (Phils) the same. Yogi and Warren were at the tail end of their careers and Yogi later managed us. Eddie and Roberto had basically their last paydays with us, while Nolan was a raw rookie on the Seaver-led WS team in '69 (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry and Ryan - this year's SP brought back memories of those guys). Ryan also was part of possibly our worst trade ever, for an aging Jim Fregosi brought in to move from SS to 3B. Ricky had some good years for us, but he was never a "Met" - more an A or Yankee.

And Willie. Maybe the best of the NYC "big-three" - Willie, Micky and the Duke (sounds like a song, doesn't it?). His tenure here though was sad. I still have visions of him falling down in CF in the '73 WS, along with Millan letting a grounder through his legs. It was just sad...

You forgot one other guy in the HoF - and who played for and managed us - Joe Torre, although he is of course better known for his successes in the Bronx.

Yogi was canned by the Yankees after they lost the 1964 World Series, and the Yanks hired Johnny Keane, who had led the Cardinals to that championship. Yogi went to the Mets as a coach under Casey Stengel. The record book shows that he played in 4 games and went 2 for 9 at the plate as a Met. I think the Mets activated him as a player late in the season, as a lark.

Olympic Fan

01-08-2016, 12:38 PM

Late comer to the thread (I was on the road with limited internet access). I was happy to see Ken Griffey and Mike Piazza make it -- the fifth or sixth best centerfielder all time and the best hitting catcher in baseball history (unless you count Josh Gibson).

I was also gratified to see Jeff Bagwell and Tim Raines do so well. I've been a big Raines booster -- he's the second-best leadoff man in baseball history who had the misfortune to play at the same time as the No. 1 guy (Rickey Henderson). You can also make the case that he's the best base stealer in baseball history -- he's fourth in total steals but he has a better success rate than any of the top guys). He should be in.

So should Bagwell, who is in the range of one of the top 5-10 first basemen in baseball history (Saw Bill James yesterday and he had Bagwell at No. 4).

But his case -- and Piazza's election -- brings is back to the PED issue. There are three clear sets of circumstances in this debate -- the guys who were never linked to PEDs in any way (including Ken Griffey), the guys who definitely used PEDs (Bonds, Clemens, McGwire) and a handful of guys in the middle -- guys that were tainted only by suspicion, never by any credible evidence.

Piazza is the first guy from that group to win induction ... I hope and think Bagwell will be the second. That's clearly the one thing that made Piazza wait four ballots for induction ... and has kept Bagwell out.

As for the true cheaters, a lot was made this year that Bonds and Clemens increased their percentage by about eight percent each. But what that overlooks is that the BWAA trimmed its roll and had about 100 less voters this year. In actually, both of their vote totals went DOWN this year. Unless the BWAA keep trimming their voting list (and this was a one-time thing), Bonds and Clemens are not gaining ground.

I suspect they still will have to wait for the veteran's committee ...

... As will Alan Trammell, who drops off the ballot. Sorry to see that ... he's better than about half the shortstops that are in the Hall.

Next year's ballot doesn't include a slam dunk -- Manny is a confirmed PED user, he won't make it. Two catchers on the ballot -- Pudge Rodriguez and Jorge Posada. I think Pudge has the best chance -- a GREAT defensive catcher -- but I did see where Bill James argued that Posada was the more valuable player of the two. And he was at the heart of a championship dynasty (although that didn't help Bernie Williams).

I think Pudge will make it next year along with Bagwell, Raines (in his final year on the ballot) and maybe Trevor Hoffman (who had a strong first-year showing).

One last note: I heard this and think I heard it right -- this year's two selections have an interesting connection to the draft. Griffey is the first No. 1 overall draft pick to make the Hall ... Piazza is the lowest drafted player ever to make the Hall (John Smoltz previously held that distinction).

Tom B.

01-08-2016, 01:25 PM

I've been a big Raines booster -- he's the second-best leadoff man in baseball history who had the misfortune to play at the same time as the No. 1 guy (Rickey Henderson).

Raines also had the misfortune of playing half his career -- and some of his most productive years -- in Montreal, so hardly anyone ever saw him and he has a much smaller "mental imprint" on casual baseball fans than someone like Henderson.

Blue in the Face

01-08-2016, 02:20 PM

I think Pudge will make it next year
Rodriguez is obviously deserving, but I think he'll get the Piazza treatment. There's probably more smoke with him than with Piazza - he had a pretty significant spike in performance in his career (admittedly in his late 20's, not an unusual time for a player to really improve, but the 2nd half of his mvp season through the following, injury shortened, season, is really out of context with the rest of his career), he was on the leaked list (albeit completely unverified) of 103 players who failed the 2003 test, and Jose Canseco (dirtbag though he is, many of his claims about steroid use have later been shown to be true) claimed he injected him. I don't think any of that should, or will, keep him out, but I do think it may cost him a few votes on the first go around.

Tom B.

01-08-2016, 04:57 PM

Rodriguez is obviously deserving, but I think he'll get the Piazza treatment. There's probably more smoke with him than with Piazza - he had a pretty significant spike in performance in his career (admittedly in his late 20's, not an unusual time for a player to really improve, but the 2nd half of his mvp season through the following, injury shortened, season, is really out of context with the rest of his career), he was on the leaked list (albeit completely unverified) of 103 players who failed the 2003 test, and Jose Canseco (dirtbag though he is, many of his claims about steroid use have later been shown to be true) claimed he injected him. I don't think any of that should, or will, keep him out, but I do think it may cost him a few votes on the first go around.

Suspicions or not, Pudge was at the center of one of my favorite plays ever -- the play at the plate that ended the 2003 NLDS and sent the Marlins to the NLCS against the Cubs. I didn't have a rooting interest for or against either the Marlins or the Giants. I just thought it was a cool way to end a playoff series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvoKmImnSLM

Blue in the Face

01-08-2016, 05:29 PM

Suspicions or not, Pudge was at the center of one of my favorite plays ever -- the play at the plate that ended the 2003 NLDS and sent the Marlins to the NLCS against the Cubs. I didn't have a rooting interest for or against either the Marlins or the Giants. I just thought it was a cool way to end a playoff series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvoKmImnSLM
It's kind of funny that the Marlins absolutely pile on Rodriguez, when a guy in his situation might reasonably have wanted a moment to shake off that collision.

OldPhiKap

01-08-2016, 06:08 PM

Speaking of Mets, when I was a kid Joe Torre played third and then was a player-coach for a short stint. Will likely go in the HOF as a coach and not a player, but it all started in Flushing Meadows.

duke74

01-08-2016, 07:23 PM

Speaking of Mets, when I was a kid Joe Torre played third and then was a player-coach for a short stint. Will likely go in the HOF as a coach and not a player, but it all started in Flushing Meadows.

Same...I miss Shea.