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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 105, Elon 66 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
12-28-2015, 09:49 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Furniture
12-28-2015, 10:19 PM
Couldn't watch the game but the first half must have been a lot of fun. Brandon HAS to be getting a lot of attention because of this and his recent performances!

CDu
12-28-2015, 10:34 PM
Nice to see those open 3s starting to fall for Kennard. He was due. That is 2 games in a row of him shooting to his billing. Hope it continues.

Ingram is really freaking good.

Not much to say about this one. Elon was clearly overmatched, and we cruised. Would have liked to have seen a better performance from Jeter, but that would be getting greedy.

dukelifer
12-28-2015, 10:44 PM
Nice to see those open 3s starting to fall for Kennard. He was due. That is 2 games in a row of him shooting to his billing. Hope it continues.

Ingram is really freaking good.

Not much to say about this one. Elon was clearly overmatched, and we cruised. Would have liked to have seen a better performance from Jeter, but that would be getting greedy.

Ingram is getting better and better. He is getting used to the more physical play and is using his quickness advantage down low. Kennard is gaining confidence. Thornton's mid range game is really good. Little worried about the D against top flight competition. The inside is very vulnerable.

Troublemaker
12-28-2015, 10:46 PM
Brandon HAS to be getting a lot of attention because of this and his recent performances!

Yep. He's consensus #2 overall right now on the major draft sites (DraftExpress, Ford, NBADraft.net). Because the NBA values shooting so much, it's not unthinkable he could pass Ben Simmons for #1, too, although that's not the way I'd bet. I think Simmons essentially being an extremely athletic 6'10" point guard will mitigate the shooting concerns about him somewhat.

I'm very pleased with Duke's performance tonight. Can't take too much from a game against Elon, obviously, but it still played out pretty much the way I'd hoped. MP3 and Chase looked better than they did the previous two games, Luke continued to play and shoot well, and the team overall seemed to have better ball movement. Let's do it again against LBSU in a couple of nights.

I really like that middle ball-screen we ran for Brandon 3 or 4 times. With his length and passing ability, it feels like he can always hit the roll man for a high-percentage opportunity at the rim.

ncexnyc
12-28-2015, 11:13 PM
Rust? What rust?
An impressive win after such a long layoff.

uh_no
12-29-2015, 12:15 AM
team played well...elon way overmatched...not much to glean but for:

chase

looked like there was some improvement. almost as if they said "you are allowed to do these 2 things on offense" and he did them and had some moderate success. still had some big head scratchers....passed up an open layup for some move and then a circus shot which missed, and had a couple TOs....but seemed slightly more aware of what was going on.

still mostly lost on defense, though he had a couple blocks.

I'm glad he was able to make some positive contributions on the floor, but he still has a long way to go before not being a liability against ACC quality opp.

kAzE
12-29-2015, 01:16 AM
Not every day you get to see 70 points in a half. I'm not even sure how it happened, I just remember seeing that there were 10 minutes left in the 1st half and we already had like 40 points and then the 3s just kept coming.

Brandon continues to redefine his ceiling. It was easy tonight against 5 midgets, but I think once he gets stronger, he can do this against much better competition. Unfortunately, by that point, he's going to be long gone from Duke. I think the most impressive thing he showed tonight was his ability to be a play maker for others. He had a few beautiful passes to the interior that should have been easy lay ups. The box score had him with 1 assist, but he would have had more if Marshall and Chase had converted on those looks. He also gets probably 2-3 "pick 6s" (he almost never just deflects a pass, he just catches it and takes off) per game now and they tend to lead to highlight plays going the other way. And you guys all ridiculed me when I tried to compare his game to KD a year ago. Not saying he's a future MVP or anything, but multiple All-Stars appearances seems not only within reach, but highly likely. The amazing level of skill packaged with the ridiculous physical gifts here is just awesome.

Chase had some nice moments and some atrocious turnovers. He was really trying to force it early, but then became way too passive later on. Very typical freshman game, but showed some potential to be a reliable post scorer down the road. It was good to see him being active on defense, but he fouled way too much trying to contest shots. Great to see him start getting more minutes, but still . . . not ready. If he can be productive in 15 minutes a game until Amile gets back, that would be wonderful.

Derryck had a nice game overall, but had a few freshman moments as well, gambling unsuccessfully for steals and not getting back in transition, leading to easy dunks for Elon.

gurufrisbee
12-29-2015, 01:26 AM
That was some fantastic offensive ball movement. With shooters as capable as ours if we move the ball like that NO ONE will hold us under 80. Loved it!

OZZIE4DUKE
12-29-2015, 07:17 AM
Obi is a big W I D E rebound machine.

Bob Green
12-29-2015, 07:33 AM
Little worried about the D against top flight competition. The inside is very vulnerable.

This sums up my observation accurately. Interior defense needs a lot of work in upcoming games. I am anxiously awaiting the return of Mr. Jefferson.

MChambers
12-29-2015, 08:17 AM
Told you guys I was worried about this game! Guess the players aren't hanging their heads over Amile's injury. Interesting what K said about the changes to the offense. He doesn't get enough credit for his coaching of the offense.


“What we’ve tried to do, since we don’t have a second big (man),” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, “… is make our spacing better. We’re going to use that lane to keep our big a little bit lower and try to play a little bit different style of basketball.
“It’ll be good for this team. And we’ll see if we can play good enough defense to hold our own.”

http://www.greensboro.com/sports/accxtra/duke-scores-in-first-half-routs-elon/article_88cd1f1b-2d85-5d51-bd9c-c7b893053ddb.html

MCFinARL
12-29-2015, 08:43 AM
Obi is a big W I D E rebound machine.

Yes. Would love to see him develop the rest of his game enough to get that skill on the court more often.

Troublemaker
12-29-2015, 09:51 AM
Told you guys I was worried about this game! Guess the players aren't hanging their heads over Amile's injury. Interesting what K said about the changes to the offense. He doesn't get enough credit for his coaching of the offense.
“What we’ve tried to do, since we don’t have a second big (man),” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, “… is make our spacing better. We’re going to use that lane to keep our big a little bit lower and try to play a little bit different style of basketball.
“It’ll be good for this team. And we’ll see if we can play good enough defense to hold our own.”

Good call pointing out this adjustment, MC.

We now have a fourth offensive "set" in the halfcourt (to go along with "Horns", "Baseline Screens" to pop Luke or Grayson open, and "Ball-Screen".) We have now added "4-out-1-in with the 1 hiding along the baseline behind the backboard." In this set, we don't involve the center at all in ball movement. It's mostly guard-to-guard dribble-handoffs, 1-on-1 takes, and use Brandon for pick-and-pops. But it worked beautifully last night to move the defense and relocate to open shooters.

The point of putting Marshall behind the backboard is to clear the lane even more instead of having MP3 post up from the midpost area in front of the basket, which hasn't been netting us good gains anyway.

Troublemaker
12-29-2015, 10:13 AM
The point of putting Marshall behind the backboard is to clear the lane even more instead of having MP3 post up from the midpost area in front of the basket, which hasn't been netting us good gains anyway.

This also positions the opposing big man deeper, under the basket to be in contact range with our guy behind the backboard, a step farther away from challenging drivers.

However, if I were the opposing coach, I'd just tell my center to ignore the baseline lurker and position myself where I usually would be in front of the basket and play 5-on-4 defense. If I have an a good shotblocker, I might even have confidence he could recover and block MP3/Chase if they get passed the ball. MP3 and Chase will need to be able to catch cleanly and get the ball up on the glass quickly, sometimes for a reverse layup (meaning over-the-head, not necessarily other side of the basket) since they're coming from behind the backboard.

superdave
12-29-2015, 10:27 AM
Ingram is getting better and better. He is getting used to the more physical play and is using his quickness advantage down low.

There was one moment - forget which game - very early on where Ingram took a hard dribble, absorbed contact, then rose up for a 10-footer and knocked it down. That moment was foreshadowing what Ingram could do with his length. He really can extend and get shots off that are not defendable. Very few people can do that - Kevin Durant maybe.

Ingram uses that length on D as well, and can pick off passes no one else can get to. He is a special player and seems to be getting better at drastic rate. We are lucky fans to have Grayson Allen as the second best offensive weapon on our team.

Troublemaker
12-29-2015, 10:29 AM
Finally, MP3 and Chase as baseline lurkers will always have inside position for offensive rebounding and tapout opportunities. They just need to be able to read what their teammates are doing to know when a shot is going up and pop out in front of the backboard.

Billy Dat
12-29-2015, 10:51 AM
I agree with all the discussion (Troublemaker, et al) about the revised offense. I noticed a lot more drive and kick and K's post-game comments and the observations made in this thread point to a real effort to create lanes to get drivers "moving downhill", 4 players spacing wide around the 3 point line and either finishes or kick-outs. We really have a great collection of 3 point shooters this year and I am happy to play "live and die with the 3" as that is what our personnel dictates. MP3 and Chase will just have to get busy on the glass. Even if people zone us, we'll score. Obviously, bad shooting nights happen but we really have a ton of options as long as the ball moves and we find open players ready to shoot.

As others have mentioned, and many of us have been mentioning, it's all about the D at this point. To highlight K's quote again, "And we’ll see if we can play good enough defense to hold our own.”

kAzE
12-29-2015, 11:32 AM
I thought one of the commentators made a pretty interesting observation that Duke is now an "offensive program," in contrast to the Duke teams in past decades. It's kind of true . . we've consistently been one of the best offensive teams in the country and just okay defensively for several years now. Since 2010, we've posted a top 20 defense just once (2015). It might just be the way that college basketball has evolved lately, or could be a byproduct of just recruiting more offensive minded players. I'm not a huge fan of "live and die by the 3" when dying by the 3 means shooting ~30% and losing to Utah, though. (Although we were missing a lot of layups in that one too) I agree that we need to put the "D" back in Duke.

TruBlu
12-29-2015, 11:44 AM
I thought one of the commentators made a pretty interesting observation that Duke is now an "offensive program," in contrast to the Duke teams in past decades. It's kind of true . . we've consistently been one of the best offensive teams in the country and just okay defensively for several years now. Since 2010, we've posted a top 20 defense just once (2015). It might just be the way that college basketball has evolved lately, or could be a byproduct of just recruiting more offensive minded players. I'm not a huge fan of "live and die by the 3" when dying by the 3 means shooting ~30% and losing to Utah, though. (Although we were missing a lot of layups in that one too) I agree that we need to put the "D" back in Duke.

And, as others have posted, it seems that the OAD's aren't in the program long enough to fully grasp K's man to man, hence his decision to play some zone on occasion.

MChambers
12-29-2015, 11:50 AM
I thought one of the commentators made a pretty interesting observation that Duke is now an "offensive program," in contrast to the Duke teams in past decades. It's kind of true . . we've consistently been one of the best offensive teams in the country and just okay defensively for several years now. Since 2010, we've posted a top 20 defense just once (2015). It might just be the way that college basketball has evolved lately, or could be a byproduct of just recruiting more offensive minded players. I'm not a huge fan of "live and die by the 3" when dying by the 3 means shooting ~30% and losing to Utah, though. (Although we were missing a lot of layups in that one too) I agree that we need to put the "D" back in Duke.
There's a thread on this here.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37043-Do-you-think-of-Duke-as-an-offensive-or-a-defensive-minded-team&highlight=defensive+team

I'm wondering if it mirrors NBA trends. I mean, I don't really follow the NBA closely, but the Warriors are an offensive juggernaut, but only okay defensively, right?

But, like you, I miss the D.

flyingdutchdevil
12-29-2015, 11:57 AM
There's a thread on this here.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37043-Do-you-think-of-Duke-as-an-offensive-or-a-defensive-minded-team&highlight=defensive+team

I'm wondering if it mirrors NBA trends. I mean, I don't really follow the NBA closely, but the Warriors are an offensive juggernaut, but only okay defensively, right?

But, like you, I miss the D.

According to Hollinger on ESPN, Golden State is the second best defensive team after San Antonio: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

GS's D is really impressive, but their O is on another level.

JPtheGame
12-29-2015, 12:06 PM
And, as others have posted, it seems that the OAD's aren't in the program long enough to fully grasp K's man to man, hence his decision to play some zone on occasion.

Shorter stays are a factor as are the rule changes intended to open up the game and jack up scoring. Im not sure Duke's old "all five guys foul at once" defense (i forget who first said that but I still think its hilarious) would work today.
Shorter benches are also a factor. Duke never goes especially deep but the last few years, foul trouble would be incredibly difficult to deal with so...more zone.

The good news is that if you cant get into the top 20 in O and D efficiency, thats national title contender territory. Our O is fine (3), the D has a way to go (43). Just for fun, look at unc (1 on O but 61 on D).

gumbomoop
12-29-2015, 01:12 PM
MP3 and Chase will need to be able to catch cleanly and get the ball up on the glass quickly, sometimes for a reverse layup (meaning over-the-head, not necessarily other side of the basket) since they're coming from behind the backboard.

Both Marshall and Chase have the (usual, normal?) big-man tendency to bring the ball down for balance and rhythm dribble. It's a problem. Marshall's footwork is cumbersome, and Chase just isn't very strong yet, so both tend to lose precious seconds seeking balance. And neither is sure-handed; more time for defenders to harass.

JNort
12-29-2015, 01:32 PM
There's a thread on this here.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37043-Do-you-think-of-Duke-as-an-offensive-or-a-defensive-minded-team&highlight=defensive+team

I'm wondering if it mirrors NBA trends. I mean, I don't really follow the NBA closely, but the Warriors are an offensive juggernaut, but only okay defensively, right?

But, like you, I miss the D.


Far from it! GS plays amazing defense this year and I think it was even better last year (no stats in front of me). Their offense is just so good people over look how stout they are on the other side

COYS
12-29-2015, 01:45 PM
Far from it! GS plays amazing defense this year and I think it was even better last year (no stats in front of me). Their offense is just so good people over look how stout they are on the other side

Yeah, the Golden State Warriors suffer in their perception by their Nelly-Ball defensive past (when they really didn't play much defense), the fact that Curry was poor on defense when he was first in the league, the fact that they score the ball so well, and the fact that they play small and don't look like the bruising defensive of yore like the Bad Boy Pistons or the 90's Riley teams. They don't even look like the early 2000's Spurs defensive juggernauts. It's just hard for people to wrap their heads around the fact that they are actually amazing on both ends of the ball.

They were one of the best teams in NBA history last year. This year, they look to be even better, assuming they can stay healthy. I have no reason to root for them, but I admit that I am smitten by their style of play and by Curry's game. I hope a Cavs team featuring Kyrie can get healthy, reach the finals, and defeat them, but if they do, it will be an incredible feat.

mo.st.dukie
12-29-2015, 02:02 PM
Shorter stays are a factor as are the rule changes intended to open up the game and jack up scoring. Im not sure Duke's old "all five guys foul at once" defense (i forget who first said that but I still think its hilarious) would work today.
Shorter benches are also a factor. Duke never goes especially deep but the last few years, foul trouble would be incredibly difficult to deal with so...more zone.

The good news is that if you cant get into the top 20 in O and D efficiency, thats national title contender territory. Our O is fine (3), the D has a way to go (43). Just for fun, look at unc (1 on O but 61 on D).

That's a myth. Wisconsin had the 54th ranked defense last year and almost won the title. In 2014 UK had the 41st ranked D and Uconn had the 39th ranked O. In 2013, Michigan was the National Runner-Up with the 48th ranked D. In 2012, KU was the National Runner-Up with the 28th ranked O. In 2011 Butler had the 48th ranked O and 44th ranked D. In 2010, Bulter had the 57th ranked O. in 2009, UNC had the 21st ranked D and MSU had the 22nd ranked O. In 2006, UCLA had the 38th ranked O. I could go on.

Of course, of those teams, only 14 Uconn and 09 UNC won the title but if playing in the National Championship game isn't considered "being a title contender" I don't know what is. The one that really stands out is 15 Wisconsin, they were 1b IMO, right there with Duke as the best team in the country. They had a spectacular offense but were just ok on defense. And that's just looking at the two teams that played for the title in those years. I'm sure if you looked at Final Four teams you would find more variation (MSU last year had the 47th ranked D) and even more going back another round. One that sticks out in my mind is 14 Michigan that went to the Elite Eight with the 109th ranked defense, of course Duke also had a D ranked similarly and had the #2 offense behind that Michigan team. Of course, Notre Dame was just a few possessions away from a Final Four last year with the #102 defense.

There's really no set definition of what is or is not "national title contender territory." Most of it just comes down to being able to make clutch plays down the stretch of tournament games. Efficiency numbers do a good job measuring efficiency, obviously, but there's more to being a good team, a national title contending team, than just efficiency. Then you throw in the fact that we are talking about the NCAA Tournament and efficiency rankings start to lose even more meaning. I don't follow the NBA super closely so perhaps efficiency is a much better indicator of a title contender than in college due to a 7-game series playoff format.

JohnGalt
12-29-2015, 02:02 PM
I thought one of the commentators made a pretty interesting observation that Duke is now an "offensive program," in contrast to the Duke teams in past decades. It's kind of true . . we've consistently been one of the best offensive teams in the country and just okay defensively for several years now. Since 2010, we've posted a top 20 defense just once (2015). It might just be the way that college basketball has evolved lately, or could be a byproduct of just recruiting more offensive minded players. I'm not a huge fan of "live and die by the 3" when dying by the 3 means shooting ~30% and losing to Utah, though. (Although we were missing a lot of layups in that one too) I agree that we need to put the "D" back in Duke.

The new rules changes hurt the traditional Duke defensive style, as well. Makes it more difficult to overplay the passing lanes and (gulp) step in for charges down low. :rolleyes:

MChambers
12-29-2015, 02:04 PM
Far from it! GS plays amazing defense this year and I think it was even better last year (no stats in front of me). Their offense is just so good people over look how stout they are on the other side
I didn't realize that. It's very interesting. My impression is that GS often goes small, with Green playing the 5 (even at the 4 he's not big), so I assumed that the defense wasn't that great.

Wait, you mean a team can have a great defense without a bunch of tall shotblockers? Whooda thunk it?

Indoor66
12-29-2015, 02:44 PM
I didn't realize that. It's very interesting. My impression is that GS often goes small, with Green playing the 5 (even at the 4 he's not big), so I assumed that the defense wasn't that great.

Wait, you mean a team can have a great defense without a bunch of tall shotblockers? Whooda thunk it?

Better check with Wheat "/"/"/ on that. :cool:

jv001
12-29-2015, 02:48 PM
And, as others have posted, it seems that the OAD's aren't in the program long enough to fully grasp K's man to man, hence his decision to play some zone on occasion.

Some great posts regarding Coach K's comments last night. Another reason for our offense being better than our defense is the rule changes and the way the games are being called. I cannot remember a year that the block/charge call has gone to the offensive player as much as this season. I know that could change as the season goes along, but so far it's been called a block on most occasions. I like that we can tell we're watching a basketball game and not a football game, but I believe it may have gone just a little bit too far. GoDuke!

dukelifer
12-29-2015, 03:06 PM
There's a thread on this here.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37043-Do-you-think-of-Duke-as-an-offensive-or-a-defensive-minded-team&highlight=defensive+team

I'm wondering if it mirrors NBA trends. I mean, I don't really follow the NBA closely, but the Warriors are an offensive juggernaut, but only okay defensively, right?

But, like you, I miss the D.
I would take the Warriors D any day. They have a few excellent- top 10 level- defenders. Draymond Green is outstanding. He uses his strength very well and plays much bigger than is 6' 7". He can defend almost any position. Curry is a basketball savant and gets his hands on a lot of balls. Klay Thompson is an excellent wing defender as he is long at 6' 6". Ezeli is a shot blocker. All in all they are an excellent defensive team. Duke has some similar elements at the guard position but inside is another story.

flyingdutchdevil
12-29-2015, 03:11 PM
I would take the Warriors D any day. They have a few excellent- top 10 level- defenders. Draymond Green is outstanding. He uses his strength very well and plays much bigger than is 6' 7". He can defend almost any position. Curry is a basketball savant and gets his hands on a lot of balls. Klay Thompson is an excellent wing defender as he is long at 6' 6". Ezeli is a shot blocker. All in all they are an excellent defensive team. Duke has some similar elements at the guard position but inside is another story.

You forgot Andre Iguodala, the Finals MVP and a top 10 defender the last 10 years.

Between Iggy, Thompson, Green, Bogut, Barnes (he is a good defender), and Ezeli, it's a ridiculous defensive team.

I think Curry is an overrated defender whose liabilities get masked by GS's incredible team defense.

kAzE
12-29-2015, 03:21 PM
You forgot Andre Iguodala, the Finals MVP and a top 10 defender the last 10 years.

Between Iggy, Thompson, Green, Bogut, Barnes (he is a good defender), and Ezeli, it's a ridiculous defensive team.

I think Curry is an overrated defender whose liabilities get masked by GS's incredible team defense.

Yep. Curry is an adequate defender who gets a lot of steals because of his quick hands, but on a different team, he would get absolutely abused. In fact, Klay Thompson often guards the opposing point guard if they have an undersized or non-shooting wing, and they will hide Curry on that guy. Tyus Jones was similar during his year at Duke. Neither of those guys have the size or length to be elite defensively, but because of the help they had on both wings and on the interior, it worked out, and both Duke and GS were/are able to mask them on defense.

oldnavy
12-29-2015, 03:25 PM
Some great posts regarding Coach K's comments last night. Another reason for our offense being better than our defense is the rule changes and the way the games are being called. I cannot remember a year that the block/charge call has gone to the offensive player as much as this season. I know that could change as the season goes along, but so far it's been called a block on most occasions. I like that we can tell we're watching a basketball game and not a football game, but I believe it may have gone just a little bit too far. GoDuke!

I don't watch NBA, BUT I did catch the Christmas Day game between the Cavs and the Warriors, and I was surprised at how ROUGH that game was. I have heard the goal of the officiating emphasis and rule emphasis was to clean it up like the NBA did...

From what I saw in that NBA game, the NBA game is WAY more physical than college, so I am not sure I understand the references to the pro game when folks talk about
"freedom of movement" and less physicality...

For the NBA fans out there, was this particular game rougher than usual or pretty average?

I actually am one that likes the game to be physical to a point... and I found myself enjoying the Cavs/Warriors game...

BD80
12-29-2015, 03:30 PM
...

Between Iggy, Thompson, Green, Bogut, Barnes (he is a good defender), and Ezeli, it's a ridiculous defensive team. ...

Must have learned how once he got to the NBA

Olympic Fan
12-29-2015, 03:50 PM
Just remember -- Duke's defense essentially collapsed at midseason last year (in the losses to NC State and Miami). K used the zone as a stopgap.

By March, we were back in the man-to-man almost fulltime and were playing the best defense in the country (at least in the NCAA) ...

So things can change.

jv001
12-29-2015, 04:12 PM
I don't watch NBA, BUT I did catch the Christmas Day game between the Cavs and the Warriors, and I was surprised at how ROUGH that game was. I have heard the goal of the officiating emphasis and rule emphasis was to clean it up like the NBA did...

From what I saw in that NBA game, the NBA game is WAY more physical than college, so I am not sure I understand the references to the pro game when folks talk about
"freedom of movement" and less physicality...

For the NBA fans out there, was this particular game rougher than usual or pretty average?

I actually am one that likes the game to be physical to a point... and I found myself enjoying the Cavs/Warriors game...

I'm not that much of an NBA fan, but I watch some of the former Duke players when I get a chance. Plus, I like to watch Steph Curry when I can. Speaking of physical. I was amused at Cleveland's Della "something another" jumping on a couple of players backs giving up a foul at the end of one game. Man, that was weird. Not what I call typical hard nose basketball. GoDuke!

Jackson
12-29-2015, 08:29 PM
Just a quick remark about the Elon game. Took my daughter to her first game at Cameron. We waited after the game so she could get a chance to meet the players. Out of all of them, only Luke Kennard stopped for fans. He took probably 20 minutes and stopped for pictures and signed everything handed to him. He was gracious, humble and polite to everyone. Was really cool to see him interact especially with kids.

uh_no
12-29-2015, 10:11 PM
Just a quick remark about the Elon game. Took my daughter to her first game at Cameron. We waited after the game so she could get a chance to meet the players. Out of all of them, only Luke Kennard stopped for fans. He took probably 20 minutes and stopped for pictures and signed everything handed to him. He was gracious, humble and polite to everyone. Was really cool to see him interact especially with kids.

Great that he came out! Most times players only come out again if they have to for interviews!

JPtheGame
12-29-2015, 11:29 PM
That's a myth. Wisconsin had the 54th ranked defense last year and almost won the title. In 2014 UK had the 41st ranked D and Uconn had the 39th ranked O. In 2013, Michigan was the National Runner-Up with the 48th ranked D. In 2012, KU was the National Runner-Up with the 28th ranked O. In 2011 Butler had the 48th ranked O and 44th ranked D. In 2010, Bulter had the 57th ranked O. in 2009, UNC had the 21st ranked D and MSU had the 22nd ranked O. In 2006, UCLA had the 38th ranked O. I could go on.

Of course, of those teams, only 14 Uconn and 09 UNC won the title but if playing in the National Championship game isn't considered "being a title contender" I don't know what is. The one that really stands out is 15 Wisconsin, they were 1b IMO, right there with Duke as the best team in the country. They had a spectacular offense but were just ok on defense. And that's just looking at the two teams that played for the title in those years. I'm sure if you looked at Final Four teams you would find more variation (MSU last year had the 47th ranked D) and even more going back another round. One that sticks out in my mind is 14 Michigan that went to the Elite Eight with the 109th ranked defense, of course Duke also had a D ranked similarly and had the #2 offense behind that Michigan team. Of course, Notre Dame was just a few possessions away from a Final Four last year with the #102 defense.

There's really no set definition of what is or is not "national title contender territory." Most of it just comes down to being able to make clutch plays down the stretch of tournament games. Efficiency numbers do a good job measuring efficiency, obviously, but there's more to being a good team, a national title contending team, than just efficiency. Then you throw in the fact that we are talking about the NCAA Tournament and efficiency rankings start to lose even more meaning. I don't follow the NBA super closely so perhaps efficiency is a much better indicator of a title contender than in college due to a 7-game series playoff format.

Super response. Well researched and presented with clarity. It compels me to do the research necessary to identify all the winners/final four participants who did qualify under that criteria and use it to show that statistically it does matter if you are in the top 20. However, given that I am incredibly lazy.......I won't.
I will say this: a- seeding and potential opponents do matter a great deal in March. It's also cool if there are few upsets that open up your bracket, b- Kentucky was clearly the best team last season and would've won any 7 game series 4-1 or 4-2 at worst.

sagegrouse
12-30-2015, 08:47 AM
Super response. Well researched and presented with clarity. It compels me to do the research necessary to identify all the winners/final four participants who did qualify under that criteria and use it to show that statistically it does matter if you are in the top 20. However, given that I am incredibly lazy....I won't.
I will say this: a- seeding and potential opponents do matter a great deal in March. It's also cool if there are few upsets that open up your bracket, b- Kentucky was clearly the best team last season and would've won any 7 game series 4-1 or 4-2 at worst.

Oooohhh....! Snuck that one in, didn't you? I don't agree. College hoops tends to be a guards game, and Kentucky was weak at the guard position. The Harrison twins couldn't score or defend against the Wisconsin guards, and the Wisconsin guards were carved up by Tyus, Grayson, and Quinn.

Kindly,
Sage
'Didn't Calipari say that he kept the twins in the game against the Badgers because he "didn't want to hurt their NBA chances?" Pretty slimy comment, I would say'