Women's Basketball 2016 season

[Kfanarmy]

Anyone know how the women are doing. I haven't seen them this year, and I know they are "young," but am a bit surprised by three losses already.

[Kfanarmy]

Has no one seen the women play?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Anyone know how the women are doing. I haven't seen them this year, and I know they are "young," but am a bit surprised by three losses already.
The women are doing fine. The three losses were to #12 Texas A&M (in OT), #2 South Carolina, and #8 Kentucky. All of those losses were competitive, none of the horrific beatdowns reminiscent of our encounters with UCONN.
The team has lost two players this year for personal reasons. Amber Henson is on an indefinite leave of absence, and Kendall Cooper is out of school until next fall. Hopefully both return, but they won't be able to be on the court at the same time if they do. Both departures hurt our frontcourt as that's a lot of height that isn't easily replaced. Oderah Chidom will fill lots of those minutes as she recovers from last year's shoulder injury.
Rebecca Greenwell is a team leader pouring in buckets from all over the court, Azura Stevens is a major presence on both ends of the court, Lynee Belton (torn ACL last year) and Angela Salvadores have both shown flashes of the solid players they will be as the season progresses.



The upcoming ACC season will be great test and opportunity for this team to gel and grow together. Notre Dame (3), Duke (12), Florida State (13), and Miami (20) are all ranked. Virginia Tech is also having a strong season and is just outside the top 25.

You can look back through the forum and get a recap on most, if not all, of the women's games. The next game on TV (ESPNU) is on Jan 3rd, so you can check them out in their first ACC game yourself. They play at Syracuse. (If you have a BDN subscription on goduke.com, you can watch them play online.)

Oh, and in case you were curious, the lady tarheels, who somehow convinced someone to vote them in the top 25 to begin the year, are enjoying a miserable season, truly deserving of a team that suffered mass defections when high profile players saw the writing on the wall and transferred before the NCAA beats them up.

[aswewere]

The women are doing fine. The three losses were to #12 Texas A&M (in OT), #2 South Carolina, and #8 Kentucky. All of those losses were competitive, none of the horrific beatdowns reminiscent of our encounters with UCONN.
The team has lost two players this year for personal reasons. Amber Henson is on an indefinite leave of absence, and Kendall Cooper is out of school until next fall. Hopefully both return, but they won't be able to be on the court at the same time if they do. Both departures hurt our frontcourt as that's a lot of height that isn't easily replaced. Oderah Chidom will fill lots of those minutes as she recovers from last year's shoulder injury.
Rebecca Greenwell is a team leader pouring in buckets from all over the court, Azura Stevens is a major presence on both ends of the court, Lynee Belton (torn ACL last year) and Angela Salvadores have both shown flashes of the solid players they will be as the season progresses.



The upcoming ACC season will be great test and opportunity for this team to gel and grow together. Notre Dame (3), Duke (12), Florida State (13), and Miami (20) are all ranked. Virginia Tech is also having a strong season and is just outside the top 25.

You can look back through the forum and get a recap on most, if not all, of the women's games. The next game on TV (ESPNU) is on Jan 3rd, so you can check them out in their first ACC game yourself. They play at Syracuse. (If you have a BDN subscription on goduke.com, you can watch them play online.)

Oh, and in case you were curious, the lady tarheels, who somehow convinced someone to vote them in the top 25 to begin the year, are enjoying a miserable season, truly deserving of a team that suffered mass defections when high profile players saw the writing on the wall and transferred before the NCAA beats them up.


Political correctness will not allow me to respond.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Political correctness will not allow me to respond.
You can offer up a contrary reply without crossing any PC boundaries. The PM you sent me would have been just as worthwhile if you posted it in this thread.
Debate is welcome, even encouraged, as long as it doesn't break down into personal attacks. (That would include coaches, players, and fellow posters.)
There is nothing wrong with a valid critique; what you PMed me seemed valid enough. (Most of it, anyway. ;) )

[aswewere]

You can offer up a contrary reply without crossing any PC boundaries. The PM you sent me would have been just as worthwhile if you posted it in this thread.
Debate is welcome, even encouraged, as long as it doesn't break down into personal attacks. (That would include coaches, players, and fellow posters.)
There is nothing wrong with a valid critique; what you PMed me seemed valid enough. (Most of it, anyway. ;) )


When your best shooter can only score 1 point against Kentucky something is wrong and since we have had
this type of problem for years against top flight teams, it only leaves me with a lot of question of system we run.

[hallcity]

Way too many turnovers. Way too few assists. Poor shooting. Weak man to man defense. It's the story of DWB under McCallie.

[burnspbesq]

When your best shooter can only score 1 point against Kentucky something is wrong .

Kentucky played excellent defense. We ran sets to free her up repeatedly. Greenie just doesn't go tight enough to the screener.

[aswewere]

If we had Lexie Brown this year we would probably be undefeated. A nice little sophisticated
offense would help her some but even with out it she can tip the scales most nights.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210599003&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Way beyond guard rich in 2016 & 2017.

[Kfanarmy]

The women are doing fine...
Thanks much! Great summary. I'll try to catch them on the third.

While UNC WBB clearly deserves to be sanctioned, I believe evidence was much more freely given and fingers pointed their direction in effort to protect men's teams.

[Kedsy]

If we had Lexie Brown this year we would probably be undefeated. A nice little sophisticated
offense would help her some but even with out it she can tip the scales most nights.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210599003&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Way beyond guard rich in 2016 & 2017.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing Lexie play next season. I think it's amazing the team voted her captain this season even though she can't be on the court. And she really seems to take the role to heart. In the team huddles during timeouts she seems to be constantly talking and helping her teammates.

[aswewere]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing Lexie play next season. I think it's amazing the team voted her captain this season even though she can't be on the court. And she really seems to take the role to heart. In the team huddles during timeouts she seems to be constantly talking and helping her teammates.

Probably the MVP this season with out playing 1 minute.

[AIM4excellence]

The women are doing fine.


Want to revise this statement after today's beatdown by Syracuse?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Want to revise this statement after today's beatdown by Syracuse?
Nope. That comment was made before the Syracuse debacle, and I stand by the comment made at that point in time. It was also followed by a lengthy bit that I took some time to research. It wasn't an off the cuff statement. My answer would be different if it were asked today.
Enjoy trolling much?

[AIM4excellence]

Nope. That comment was made before the Syracuse debacle, and I stand by the comment made at that point in time. It was also followed by a lengthy bit that I took some time to research. It wasn't an off the cuff statement. My answer would be different if it were asked today.
Enjoy trolling much?

That's a rude remark that's uncalled for. Duke women's basketball is the primary team I follow and constitute a very low percentage of threads on this board. Since I decided to end my 30 years of constant and loyal attendance at games two years ago, I don't comment as much. One has to really hunt to find conversations about the women's team and I don't always have the patience or interest to do so.

After the debacle vs Syracuse, I was curious about how long time defenders of this coach would respond. Extremely amused to see the statement that DWB is in good shape since I could see this team was on the verge of a mighty fall. I did not know when or where, I just knew it was lurking around the corner. Losing two post players on a team with very very thin post depth was HUGE. Especially as Belton is not yet 100% and her ability to contribute is still spotty. With Matthias not trusted with many minutes, we've got Stevens and Chidom with Belton on spot duty. Foul trouble devastates our front line. In the back court, our large group of above average but not spectacular young guards are not meshing well. I'm guessing some of the less experienced guards are louder than the most experienced guard Becca and each one had to find out the hard way that you can't beat a press by one on one play. Basically I knew this team was in trouble when Amber went on leave since she was the one who the younger players listened to. But, since she hasn't practiced all season, that was limiting her effectiveness anyway since she couldn't lead by example how to stay at practice until a skill is mastered.

Regarding the three previous losses (before Syracuse) we used to win at least one of those. Going 0-3 meant we're not even close to the top 10. Now we have the evidence to support where I thought the team was at the time you said the team was fine. Some people put more stock in won-lost records than on the intangibles that point elsewhere.

Care to debate where this team will go next? Will the team realize what most of us have - that the coach did not prepare them for the game? If so, how will they respond and/or explain their feelings to the coach? Will the coach be receptive or will she punish the player(s) she considers to be the most disloyal to her? How will the players respond when one of their own has been relegated to the bench? I have watched these things play out for 9 seasons now. Usually there's been enough talent and depth to limp through to the elite eight before all the disconnect between players and coaches caught up with them. This year it seems to be happening sooner than usual. Now it's your turn to explain where you think this team is now headed.

[-jk]

That's a rude remark that's uncalled for. Duke women's basketball is the primary team I follow and constitute a very low percentage of threads on this board. Since I decided to end my 30 years of constant and loyal attendance at games two years ago, I don't comment as much. One has to really hunt to find conversations about the women's team and I don't always have the patience or interest to do so.

After the debacle vs Syracuse, I was curious about how long time defenders of this coach would respond. Extremely amused to see the statement that DWB is in good shape since I could see this team was on the verge of a mighty fall. I did not know when or where, I just knew it was lurking around the corner. Losing two post players on a team with very very thin post depth was HUGE. Especially as Belton is not yet 100% and her ability to contribute is still spotty. With Matthias not trusted with many minutes, we've got Stevens and Chidom with Belton on spot duty. Foul trouble devastates our front line. In the back court, our large group of above average but not spectacular young guards are not meshing well. I'm guessing some of the less experienced guards are louder than the most experienced guard Becca and each one had to find out the hard way that you can't beat a press by one on one play. Basically I knew this team was in trouble when Amber went on leave since she was the one who the younger players listened to. But, since she hasn't practiced all season, that was limiting her effectiveness anyway since she couldn't lead by example how to stay at practice until a skill is mastered.

Regarding the three previous losses (before Syracuse) we used to win at least one of those. Going 0-3 meant we're not even close to the top 10. Now we have the evidence to support where I thought the team was at the time you said the team was fine. Some people put more stock in won-lost records than on the intangibles that point elsewhere.

Care to debate where this team will go next? Will the team realize what most of us have - that the coach did not prepare them for the game? If so, how will they respond and/or explain their feelings to the coach? Will the coach be receptive or will she punish the player(s) she considers to be the most disloyal to her? How will the players respond when one of their own has been relegated to the bench? I have watched these things play out for 9 seasons now. Usually there's been enough talent and depth to limp through to the elite eight before all the disconnect between players and coaches caught up with them. This year it seems to be happening sooner than usual. Now it's your turn to explain where you think this team is now headed.

I suspect CameronBornAndBred was implying that you hadn't posted anything about the WBB team this year, perhaps waiting for a "debacle" - your Syracuse posts being your only ones since we lost in the NCAAs last year. As you're a veteran fan, it'd be helpful to the community if you'd share your thoughts on other, more specific, aspects of the game - not just after the "debacles". And you've only been commenting here since after you began your less-than-loyal game attendance, so "I don't comment as much" is pretty meaningless to us.

"I was curious about how long time defenders of this coach would respond" seems more of the "trolling" that CBaB was suggesting.

-jk

[CameronBornAndBred]

-jk expanded on my short statement pretty well, but at the risk of becoming involved in a debate I'm not looking to participate in, I'll offer these few thoughts and replies.

Since I decided to end my 30 years of constant and loyal attendance at games two years ago, I don't comment as much. One has to really hunt to find conversations about the women's team and I don't always have the patience or interest to do so.
I'm assuming you saw this thread and my reply when it was posted two weeks ago, why not offer up your thoughts then? The attitude that you've taken of waiting for the impending disaster that you seem to relish is truly disheartening. What fan does that? Hell, I'm guessing even life long Cubs fans don't start off each season looking forward to that one great loss so they can again declare "Here we go again, we suck and I knew it was coming!"



After the debacle vs Syracuse, I was curious about how long time defenders of this coach would respond. Extremely amused to see the statement that DWB is in good shape since I could see this team was on the verge of a mighty fall. I did not know when or where, I just knew it was lurking around the corner.

That's a great way to take my statement, written 2 weeks ago, totally out of context. (And as I said, I stand behind it, since it was written back then.) Once again, a truly defeatist attitude and sad to read. Also one that is easier to write after such a major loss. Write that in the first week of the season, at least then you can beat your chest a bit when your "mighty fall" occurs. Otherwise you've come across as a bit of a predator laying in wait. I've not met any Duke fans that do that with any of our sports.




Losing two post players on a team with very very thin post depth was HUGE. Especially as Belton is not yet 100% and her ability to contribute is still spotty. With Matthias not trusted with many minutes, we've got Stevens and Chidom with Belton on spot duty. Foul trouble devastates our front line. In the back court, our large group of above average but not spectacular young guards are not meshing well. I'm guessing some of the less experienced guards are louder than the most experienced guard Becca and each one had to find out the hard way that you can't beat a press by one on one play. Basically I knew this team was in trouble when Amber went on leave since she was the one who the younger players listened to. But, since she hasn't practiced all season, that was limiting her effectiveness anyway since she couldn't lead by example how to stay at practice until a skill is mastered.

Regarding the three previous losses (before Syracuse) we used to win at least one of those. Going 0-3 meant we're not even close to the top 10. Now we have the evidence to support where I thought the team was at the time you said the team was fine. Some people put more stock in won-lost records than on the intangibles that point elsewhere.

Those are the most substantive words I've read from you in a long time; they are a worthwhile critique, and you did it without bashing a single coach. Nicely done. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I respect the opinion.


Care to debate where this team will go next?
Not really. I'm cautiously optimistic, yet less than I was. There is no way to sugar coat a loss as bad as this one. I do think coaching played a lot into it; hopefully the staff (including P) is able to evaluate themselves as closely as they evaluate the players.
It's a long season; I'm looking forward to seeing how both players and staff respond and hopefully it will be with a few solid wins.
I know I won't be sitting eagerly waiting for another great loss to brighten my day.
LGD

[tieguy]

Where's the balance?
If the coach had a demonstrated track record of developing kids, and it was only this particular set of kids that wasn't performing, then, yeah, we'd discuss that like we discuss the men's team. But instead we're seeing (for a decade now!) a repeated series of top-ranked, offensive-minded, recruits who come in and suddenly look stagnant on offense. There's a common thread there, and it isn't the kids, or (with the exception of Al) the assistants.

Not to say the kids have always been perfect, and there have been plenty of injuries which are out of P's control, but she's the common thread in a decade that saw us drop from being all but in the same breath with UT and UConn, and always competitive with #1 seeds, to getting blown out by not just by top seeds but also now by unranked teams.

~tieguy (don't even get me started on how unwatchable it is...)

[nocilla]

I was under the impression that this was a rebuilding year to begin with. This is a very young team, especially at the pg position.

Before the season started, the thoughts I was hearing were that this team would have some growing pains but should be ready to contend for a title next year; With the growth/maturation of our guards, Stevens and Greenwell being upperclassmen, and the addition of Lexie Brown.

Obviously a blowout loss to an unranked team is disappointing. But a pressing team taking advantage of our young guards doesn't really surprise me. Should they be further along by this point? Maybe so. But I want to see how they progress as the season goes on. It's still early and this team has plenty of room to grow.

[Indoor66]

I was under the impression that this was a rebuilding year to begin with. This is a very young team, especially at the pg position.

Before the season started, the thoughts I was hearing were that this team would have some growing pains but should be ready to contend for a title next year; With the growth/maturation of our guards, Stevens and Greenwell being upperclassmen, and the addition of Lexie Brown.

Obviously a blowout loss to an unranked team is disappointing. But a pressing team taking advantage of our young guards doesn't really surprise me. Should they be further along by this point? Maybe so. But I want to see how they progress as the season goes on. It's still early and this team has plenty of room to grow.

I am very slow to ask for change or to overly criticize coaches and programs. That said, I have lost patience with WBB. The excuses seem endless. I concede injuries have decimated some teams. I concede that we have young players. I concede all of that. Yet I never seem to see any progress from the young players. The games are unwatchable. The team dynamics never click. After a while I have to conclude it is the teachers, not the pupils. The pupils all came in as A students. They seem to leave as C or D students.

[aswewere]

A good wrap up by DWHOOPS http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601031-syracuse-86-duke-50.php

[tieguy]

Rob at DW obliquely points out one thing I forgot to mention last night: the rate of transfers has been steadily high, which contributes to poor senior leadership, which compounds the other problems. When that happens once or twice, you can blame the players; when it is coupled with winning (like at UConn), you can say it is part of the system; but here, at some point, again, you have to say "this is not the players, it is the coach".

[Kedsy]

Rob at DW obliquely points out one thing I forgot to mention last night: the rate of transfers has been steadily high, which contributes to poor senior leadership, which compounds the other problems. When that happens once or twice, you can blame the players; when it is coupled with winning (like at UConn), you can say it is part of the system; but here, at some point, again, you have to say "this is not the players, it is the coach".

Well, this idea might have some validity if the "steadily high" rate of transfers was higher at Duke than at other high major programs. Or higher than Coach G's rate of transfers. Or higher than Duke's men's team's rate of transfers. But I don't think it is.

TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S WOMEN'S TEAM DURING COACH P's FIRST EIGHT SEASONS*: 7
TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S WOMEN'S TEAM DURING COACH G's LAST EIGHT SEASONS: 7
TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S MEN'S TEAM WHILE COACH P HAS BEEN AT DUKE: 7

* (through 2014-15, I don't think we've had any transfers this season, right?)

[CameronBornAndBred]

* (through 2014-15, I don't think we've had any transfers this season, right?)
Not a transfer, but Amber stepped away from the program and isn't playing. She still can/may come back. (Hoping so!!)

[Indoor66]

Not a transfer, but Amber stepped away from the program and isn't playing. She still can/may come back. (Hoping so!!)

As did Emily Waner.

[uh_no]

Well, this idea might have some validity if the "steadily high" rate of transfers was higher at Duke than at other high major programs. Or higher than Coach G's rate of transfers. Or higher than Duke's men's team's rate of transfers. But I don't think it is.

TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S WOMEN'S TEAM DURING COACH P's FIRST EIGHT SEASONS*: 7
TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S WOMEN'S TEAM DURING COACH G's LAST EIGHT SEASONS: 7
TRANSFERS FROM DUKE'S MEN'S TEAM WHILE COACH P HAS BEEN AT DUKE: 7

* (through 2014-15, I don't think we've had any transfers this season, right?)

The transfer thing is one of the weaker points in the negative column, IMO, as even Uconn has people who transfer away. However, the comparison to the men's team is rather tenuous. The kind of person who traditionally transfers from duke mens is a mediocre recruit who has the potential to blossom, but realizes that their future isn't as a duke star and they might get more playing time elsewhere.

TK
Olek
semi
etc.

almost all fit this bill.

The transfers from the women's program, and correct me if my impression is wrong, have more often been pieces expected to be major contributors. When someone like that transfers, it generally points to either some family issue (Elliott Williams, Elena Della Donne) or an issue with the program/staff.

When you combine that with the way P sometimes speaks about her team, the way she handles herself in the media, and the coaches who have left for lateral positions elsewhere, it's not a huge stretch to assume that there might be a continuous level of discord within the program.

In short, I don't think all transfers are created equal (trying to divine reasons for each of the transfers from the mens and women's teams is an exercise left to the reader), I'm not too too concerned about the transfers from the program, and I think my opinions of the program would be supportable even if fewer people had transferred.

[Kedsy]

Not a transfer, but Amber stepped away from the program and isn't playing. She still can/may come back. (Hoping so!!)

I thought I saw Amber sitting on the bench at the Syracuse game. I was only watching on TV, though, so I'm not certain about that.


As did Emily Waner.

I think the total of players who left Coach P's program is 11. I believe the total of players who left Coach G's program in her last 8 years was also 11.


The transfers from the women's program, and correct me if my impression is wrong, have more often been pieces expected to be major contributors.

To my knowledge, the only "key piece" transfers from Coach P's Duke team have been Alexis Jones (who left while she was sitting the year out for injury anyway, so I'm not sure how much we can take away from that - I got the impression that if she hadn't been injured she would have stayed at Duke) and Sierra Calhoun. The others who transferred were not expected to be major contributors, pieces that would more fairly correspond to a Taylor King or an Olek Czyz or a Semi Ojeleye.

[Mike Corey]

In some ways, the program has clearly improved under Coach P, especially on the recruiting trail.

Attendance also shot up when Coach P came aboard, with record years (correct me if I'm wrong) in Coach P's first two seasons. On the court, Duke has done very well in the ACC, regular and postseason alike. In other words, Duke has continued winning games at a fantastic clip. And Duke has continued to produce first-team all Americans and high WNBA picks.

Yes, the program has lost players to transfer in a rate that is at the very least comparable to other relevant programs. Uniquely, I'd suggest, the program has lost coaches accepting lateral positions (i.e., assistants taking assistant jobs at programs of equal or lesser status).

The downside, as we all know, has been that the program has not been to a Final Four since 2006. There have been a number of injuries that have made that all the more difficult, no doubt. But that hurdle remains. For most programs, this would not necessarily be a strike against them. However, this is notable given Duke's presence in four final fours between 1999 and 2006.

Further, Duke's struggled to be competitive with the "elite of elite" teams. To be fair, most teams struggle to keep up with that highest of echelons. This had not been a consistent problem for DWB prior to 2008, however.

As such, an argument could be made that though Duke remains one of the very top programs in the country, it now resides outside of the top 5. (After all, we've continued reaching Elite 8s.)

Attendance wise, the numbers have decreased each of the last three seasons after great attendance numbers in Coach P's first two seasons.

2003: 5,577 (13th)
2004: 6,237 (14th)
2005: 4,966 (19th)
2006: 6,073 (16th)
2007: 5,852 (13th)
2008: 6,749 (10th)
2009: 6,689 (11th)
2010: 4,714 (18th)
2011: 5,216 (15th)
2012: 5,361 (15th)
2013: 4,958 (18th)
2014: 4,814 (20th)
2015: 4,590 (20th)

[aswewere]

Sent K White a note today asking for some offensive coaching help as I did
2 years ago. No reply yet at 82 I don't have until 2020 to get this resolved
and have that Duke pride in my team again.

[sagegrouse]

The transfers from the women's program, and correct me if my impression is wrong, have more often been pieces expected to be major contributors. When someone like that transfers, it generally points to either some family issue (Elliott Williams, Elena Della Donne) or an issue with the program/staff.


My friend, Elena Delle Donne never darkened the door of Duke University, but perhaps you are saying something different. She started at UConn, never made it through summer training, before returning to her home in Delaware. She played collegiately at the U. of Delaware. Elena's brother, QB Gene, stayed one year at Duke before going elsewhere (Middle Tennessee?).

[martydoesntfoul]

Calling Katie Meier to come on home...

[dudog84]

Calling Katie Meier to come on home...

Yeah, the Miami coach who's ranked team just lost by 20 points to a 10-4 Virginia team.

[uh_no]

My friend, Elena Delle Donne never darkened the door of Duke University, but perhaps you are saying something different. She started at UConn, never made it through summer training, before returning to her home in Delaware. She played collegiately at the U. of Delaware. Elena's brother, QB Gene, stayed one year at Duke before going elsewhere (Middle Tennessee?).

It had nothing to do with duke. it was an example of a high profile player who had left a university for personally reasons...it also served to support my statement that people leave other top programs.

As a native nutmegger, I know very well about elena della donne...and only think of what the run could have been had she been there...

[CharlestonDave]

I defer this question to those who are much,much more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.

Each year I read that Duke has assembled one of the top recruiting classes yet I do not see the program advancing or getting better under Coach P. Is it the coaching? Are the players overrated coming in ? Is it injuries ? What is it ?

How did South Carolina all of a sudden become a woman's basketball powerhouse , Kentucky to a lesser degree ?

I understand that UConn is the gold standard that everyone is striving to match and Coach A is the best, but I just do not understand why our woman's program seems to be jogging in place and getting worse actually ....a 36 point loss to Syracuse , WOW.

Thank You In advance for an explanation.

[aswewere]

Some of our problems are the 1990s systems we run that worked very well
then with the talent we have had.

[jimsumner]

I defer this question to those who are much,much more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.

Each year I read that Duke has assembled one of the top recruiting classes yet I do not see the program advancing or getting better under Coach P. Is it the coaching? Are the players overrated coming in ? Is it injuries ? What is it ?

How did South Carolina all of a sudden become a woman's basketball powerhouse , Kentucky to a lesser degree ?

I understand that UConn is the gold standard that everyone is striving to match and Coach A is the best, but I just do not understand why our woman's program seems to be jogging in place and getting worse actually ...a 36 point loss to Syracuse , WOW.

Thank You In advance for an explanation.

Well, Dawn Staley went 10-18, 14-15 and 18-15 in her first three seasons at South Carolina and didn't advance past the Sweet Sixteen until her seventh season there.

So, it may not have been all of a sudden.

Injuries and attrition have negatively impacted DWBB for several years. Can this year's class stay healthy and intact?

I'm very curious to see what happens tonight. Was the Syracuse debacle an aberration or something more ominous? We should know more in about nine hours.

[DU82]

Well, Dawn Staley went 10-18, 14-15 and 18-15 in her first three seasons at South Carolina and didn't advance past the Sweet Sixteen until her seventh season there.

So, it may not have been all of a sudden.

Injuries and attrition have negatively impacted DWBB for several years. Can this year's class stay healthy and intact?

I'm very curious to see what happens tonight. Was the Syracuse debacle an aberration or something more ominous? We should know more in about nine hours.

I'm really interested in how the team comes out tonight. Will they be more aggressive? Will they handle the ball/press (don't know if Wake does that) better than against the Orange?

One note on the health front. It was announced that Haley has a hip injury, and is out indefinitely

(Heading to Cameron in a few minutes.)

[jimsumner]

Gorecki out for the year.

Henson back on the team.

FYI

[Kedsy]

Gorecki out for the year.

Damn. It's unbelievable how snakebitten this team has been over the past five or six years.


Henson back on the team.


At least there's some good news.

[aswewere]

Not Good unc 77 Syracuse 73

Tonight's Scores & Boxes ACC http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/scoreboard/_/group/2/date/20160107

[uh_no]

Not Good unc 77 Syracuse 73

Tonight's Scores & Boxes ACC http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/scoreboard/_/group/2/date/20160107

shrug.

Duke had a good bounce back tonight, whooping wake with a big third quarter.

didn't watch the game...did WF try to press at all?

[DU82]

shrug.

Duke had a good bounce back tonight, whooping wake with a big third quarter.

didn't watch the game...did WF try to press at all?

They tried a bit late in the third quarter. Too late, and not very well. As i heard on the radio on the way home, teams that don't press often usually don't do it well. He was actually talking about Louisville on Sunday, but it applied to Wake.

Wake was scrappy and kept it close in the first half with some threes and driving to the basket. The defense changed in the second half, starting three bigs, Stevens, Belton and Amber Henson, making her first appearance since the first couple of weeks. The match up zone allowed Azura to play the point, and that caused Wake all sorts of trouble. On offense, the team got in the flow, and almost everything clicked. Rebecca had great open looks from outside, and was 5-10, and Angela did as well, hitting 4 threes.

Still things to work on, and Haley is gone for the year. Faith Suggs started for the first time, and played well, so there's some depth (unlike last year.)

[jimsumner]

Wake isn't very good and Duke let them hang around much too long in the first half. Shaky D and too many fouls.

But Duke's third period was very impressive, 34-12 worth of impressive. Henson didn't contribute anything statistically but she's the best defensive communicator on the team and Duke was much more cohesive when she was on the floor. McCallie said Henson would start Sunday at Louisville.

I trust Salvadores will also start. She still has too many turnovers--six tonight-but she can create for her teammates in ways that none of her teammates can. She needs to be on the floor at least 30 mpg, IMO. And if she can keep knocking down threes, that makes Duke all the more dangerous.

It was a solid bounce-back game. But Louisville on the road is a different level entirely and I suspect we'll have a better read on where this team is after that test.

BTW, I was told that there are no internal problems or chemistry issues on the team. Could be spin. But I trust my source.

[martydoesntfoul]

Yeah, the Miami coach who's ranked team just lost by 20 points to a 10-4 Virginia team.

Well that settles it then... a coaching career captured in a single data point. Nice.

[Kedsy]

I trust Salvadores will also start. She still has too many turnovers--six tonight-but she can create for her teammates in ways that none of her teammates can. She needs to be on the floor at least 30 mpg, IMO. And if she can keep knocking down threes, that makes Duke all the more dangerous.

I thought Angela had a bit of a coming out party tonight. I think that's a really good thing. She and Rebecca really clicked together, too, which is also a good thing.

Because in 10 of our 15 losses in the past two seasons, Rebecca Greenwell has been held to 12 points or fewer:

2016 SC: 4
2016 UK: 1
2016 Syr: 8
2015 Md: 5
2015 ND 1: 4
2015 ND 2: 6
2015 UConn: 4
2015 Neb: 9
2015 BC: 11
2015 SC: 12

My take on this is, as good as Rebecca is, she can be neutralized if the opposing defense focuses on her. But if Angela is just as much (or more) of a threat, then either teams can't focus on Becca, or if they do then Angela can make them pay.

In the three 2016 losses listed above, Angela also scored in single-digits. But if she can score like she did tonight, that changes a lot. With that kind of additional scoring threat, we might have won the SC and UK games.

It's something to follow, anyway.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Not Good unc 77 Syracuse 73

Tonight's Scores & Boxes ACC http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/scoreboard/_/group/2/date/20160107
unc only beating Syracuse by three at home isn't much of a game to compare our loss in NY to, even with the horrendous deficit we suffered.
Speaking of Syracuse, it's not like they suck. Their four losses are to #4 Tennessee by 2 at Tennessee, to #5 Maryland (82-64) at Maryland, vs #24 ASU by 7, and against the Heels at home by only three.

[aswewere]

unc only beating Syracuse by three at home isn't much of a game to compare our loss in NY to, even with the horrendous deficit we suffered.
Speaking of Syracuse, it's not like they suck. Their four losses are to #4 Tennessee by 2 at Tennessee, to #5 Maryland (82-64) at Maryland, vs #24 ASU by 7, and against the Heels at home by only three.


Its not what happens in a few games for most of us its the coaching and direction we have observed
over many years. Geno has set a standard for excellence but so has coach K here at Duke, its hard for
us to except a lot less.

[dudog84]

Well that settles it then... a coaching career captured in a single data point. Nice.

Well ok then...

First, for all reasonable readers of this board, I never like to speak ill of a member of the Duke family. I think Katie is a good coach. But these are the facts:

In 10 years at Miami, Katie has made the NCAAs 4 times, and never made it past the second round.

Her ACC record is 70-81. Coach P's ACC record is 100-22.

Enough for you?

Geez Louise. :rolleyes:

[-jk]

Its not what happens in a few games for most of us its the coaching and direction we have observed
over many years. Geno has set a standard for excellence but so has coach K here at Duke, its hard for
us to except a lot less.

I've said it before: if K and Geno set the bar, it's too high for almost everyone else. (And I hate to see what'll happen to K's replacement.) We've been spoiled. UConn women, too. These sorts of coaches don't come around often.

-jk

[aswewere]

I've said it before: if K and Geno set the bar, it's too high for almost everyone else. (And I hate to see what'll happen to K's replacement.) We've been spoiled. UConn women, too. These sorts of coaches don't come around often.

-jk


[ These sorts of coaches don't come around often ] True but there are a lot of coaches that don't get
blown out every time they compete against them.

[dudog84]

[ These sorts of coaches don't come around often ] True but there are a lot of coaches that don't get
blown out every time they compete against them.

I beg to differ about Geno. And you can't compare men's and women's basketball.

[Des Esseintes]

I beg to differ about Geno. And you can't compare men's and women's basketball.

Seriously. The list of coaches whose teams can AVOID getting housed on the regular by UConn? Incredibly short.

That said, I'm confident exciting days are coming for Duke women's basketball. P runs an excellent program, and they will break through with a FF berth one of these years.

[aswewere]

I beg to differ about Geno. And you can't compare men's and women's basketball.

Geno is a big old mountain but lets start at Duke with a lady named Gail then Brenda, Muffett and Tara
to name a few. Beating Geno is not what this is about, winning just a few games against higher ranked
teams would be a nice place to start a 180 turn around.

[Kedsy]

Beating Geno is not what this is about, winning just a few games against higher ranked teams would be a nice place to start a 180 turn around.

Well, if that's what it's about, you can rest easy. Just last season, Duke won five (5) games against opponents ranked higher than Duke at the time of the game. So, it wouldn't really be a "180 turn around" at all, now would it?

In fact, if you take away UConn and Notre Dame, in the past 7.5 seasons (from the start of Coach P's second season at Duke until today), Duke has an 8-9 record against teams ranked higher at the time of the game (including this season's 0-3 against such teams). Admittedly, we haven't beaten UConn or Notre Dame during that time period.


.

[aswewere]

Well, if that's what it's about, you can rest easy. Just last season, Duke won five (5) games against opponents ranked higher than Duke at the time of the game. So, it wouldn't really be a "180 turn around" at all, now would it?

In fact, if you take away UConn and Notre Dame, in the past 7.5 seasons (from the start of Coach P's second season at Duke until today), Duke has an 8-9 record against teams ranked higher at the time of the game (including this season's 0-3 against such teams). Admittedly, we haven't beaten UConn or Notre Dame during that time period.


.

Kedsy thanks for being a Duke fan as in life some of our goals and expectations don't match up with
our buddies. We would both love to see the total program compliment the fine recruiting.

[jv001]

Kedsy thanks for being a Duke fan as in life some of our goals and expectations don't match up with
our buddies. We would both love to see the total program compliment the fine recruiting.

I agree with this statement. Kedsy loves Duke University and he adds a lot to DBR. I like his posts. And I agree with your post that we all would like to see the Duke Women's program make that next step. The injury bug has been very unkind to DWB over the last few years and is probably the number one reason the program has not performed as we all would like, but I will say that the games are not pretty to watch any longer. Way too many turnovers and some poor shooting as well. GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

I, too, am bothered by the turnovers and poor shooting. I am more bothered by the seeming disorganization on both offense and defense. There seems to be no plan or continuity to the player movement. Nobody seem to be in position to receive the ball, to block out, to effectively screen, or to be in position to get back on defense. There does not seem to be any plan. The game seems to wander without purpose and to be less than enjoyable to watch.

[aswewere]

I, too, am bothered by the turnovers and poor shooting. I am more bothered by the seeming disorganization on both offense and defense. There seems to be no plan or continuity to the player movement. Nobody seem to be in position to receive the ball, to block out, to effectively screen, or to be in position to get back on defense. There does not seem to be any plan. The game seems to wander without purpose and to be less than enjoyable to watch.

The best way to rally our fan base is [ the buck stops with me coach P ] and we are going to give
you a program that will make you proud. Please send us your recommendations [ Swallow your
EGO you need help ] Then coach um - up K White will get you any additional help needed. This is
our Duke Team we all want that proud felling again.

[martydoesntfoul]

Well ok then...

First, for all reasonable readers of this board, I never like to speak ill of a member of the Duke family. I think Katie is a good coach. But these are the facts:

In 10 years at Miami, Katie has made the NCAAs 4 times, and never made it past the second round.

Her ACC record is 70-81. Coach P's ACC record is 100-22.

Enough for you?

Geez Louise. :rolleyes:

A better argument then your first, but I think you're being a little harsh here. She has turned around two programs that weren't exactly national powers and has an AP National Coach of the Year award to her credit. I don't know if she'd be the best option or not, but I think she should be in the conversation. So should Joanne Boyle, who enjoyed tremendous success at Cal before taking the UVA job.

Look, you're going to be able to recruit at Duke, and that talent is going to win you games. K's genius is his ability to adapt. Under Coach P, it appears we're the same thing game after game, year in and year out. And the player turnover seems exceptionally high. Personally, I'd like to see what Katie or Joanne could do... but that's just one person's opinion.

[dudog84]

A better argument then your first, but I think you're being a little harsh here. She has turned around two programs that weren't exactly national powers and has an AP National Coach of the Year award to her credit. I don't know if she'd be the best option or not, but I think she should be in the conversation. So should Joanne Boyle, who enjoyed tremendous success at Cal before taking the UVA job.

Look, you're going to be able to recruit at Duke, and that talent is going to win you games. K's genius is his ability to adapt. Under Coach P, it appears we're the same thing game after game, year in and year out. And the player turnover seems exceptionally high. Personally, I'd like to see what Katie or Joanne could do... but that's just one person's opinion.

Holy cannoli!

Look, I'm not this huge Coach P fan, it's just that her detractors are so unknowledgeable. Maybe it's because I was trained as a scientist and was taught to have some facts before I opened my mouth that these arguments for her dismissal annoy me so much. All I'm asking for is 5 minutes of research. We do have the internet now.

You do know that Coach P turned around two programs to a much greater degree and to much greater success than Katie. You do know that Coach P has an AP National Coach of the Year award to her credit.

And "tremendous success" at Cal? Are you serious? In 6 years at Cal, she made the Sweet Sixteen once. One Pac-10 tournament championship. If that's tremendous, I want to come and work for your company. Any openings? In 4 years at Virginia, she has never finished higher than 6th in the ACC and has yet to make the NCAAs.

It has been shown indisputably on this board by several posters that player turnover under Coach P is no higher than under Coach G.

S.....M......H

[uh_no]

it's just that her detractors are so unknowledgeable.

several of her detractors have followed the program for many many years. you may disagree with many of their conclusions, but the insinuation you make here, that anyone who is not supportive of coach P must be an idiot, is itself not supportable.

There are idiots behind any viewpoint, but that doesn't mean everyone behind that viewpoint is an idiot.

[duke09hms]

Holy cannoli!

Look, I'm not this huge Coach P fan, it's just that her detractors are so unknowledgeable. Maybe it's because I was trained as a scientist and was taught to have some facts before I opened my mouth that these arguments for her dismissal annoy me so much. All I'm asking for is 5 minutes of research. We do have the internet now.

You do know that Coach P turned around two programs to a much greater degree and to much greater success than Katie. You do know that Coach P has an AP National Coach of the Year award to her credit.

And "tremendous success" at Cal? Are you serious? In 6 years at Cal, she made the Sweet Sixteen once. One Pac-10 tournament championship. If that's tremendous, I want to come and work for your company. Any openings? In 4 years at Virginia, she has never finished higher than 6th in the ACC and has yet to make the NCAAs.

It has been shown indisputably on this board by several posters that player turnover under Coach P is no higher than under Coach G.

S....M...H

How scientific are ad hominem attacks here? Quite clearly there's a relative scale here, and McCallie seems to be doing less with much more in terms of recruiting talent and resources.

[dukelifer]

How scientific are ad hominem attacks here? Quite clearly there's a relative scale here, and McCallie seems to be doing less with much more in terms of recruiting talent and resources.

Women are getting crushed again. Duke scored 17 points in the first half? What? Something is going on. Has P lost the locker room?

[chrishoke]

Women are getting crushed again. Duke scored 17 points in the first half? What? Something is going on. Has P lost the locker room?

She has lost me.

[loran16]

Inspired by this game, I looked at the Sagarin Predictor ratings for Duke WBB over the last few years. I needed to use the internet archive to find ratings before this year alas. The Predictor attempts to determine true talent and cares about margin of victory. Here's how Duke has been:

11-12: Duke #5 Predictor
12-13: Duke #4 Predictor
13-14: Duke #3 Predictor
14-15: Duke #10 Predictor
15-16: Duke #22 Predictor

So 3 straight years, Duke was a borderline Final Four level team in talent (even if they fell short). The last two years, they've fallen out of that talent level (especially this year). It's one thing if it was a blip, like last year appeared to be (being #10 one year after 3 straight top 5 years happens), but after last year's "down" year, #22 is more than a bit concerning.

I'm telling yall nothing new I know. But it's nice to have #s to show what our emotion says is in fact based in truth. There's an issue here.

[downeastdad]

I, too, am bothered by the turnovers and poor shooting. I am more bothered by the seeming disorganization on both offense and defense. There seems to be no plan or continuity to the player movement. Nobody seem to be in position to receive the ball, to block out, to effectively screen, or to be in position to get back on defense. There does not seem to be any plan. The game seems to wander without purpose and to be less than enjoyable to watch.

What he said is a pretty good description of the Louisville game
I'd change "less than enjoyable" to "painful", though.
ded

[dudog84]

several of her detractors have followed the program for many many years. you may disagree with many of their conclusions, but the insinuation you make here, that anyone who is not supportive of coach P must be an idiot, is itself not supportable.

There are idiots behind any viewpoint, but that doesn't mean everyone behind that viewpoint is an idiot.

Sorry, I think the "tremendous success at Cal" set me off a bit.

Oh, and comparing anybody to Coach K? If we're going to do that, we need to fire all the other coaches at Duke.

The problem is, there is no clear-cut, no-brainer replacement if the complainers get their way. Considering the injuries of the past few years, Coach P has done quite well. I fear the chances are very good that a replacement would do worse instead of better.

As for today's game, yeah, another bad loss. I think there are going to be growing pains with this team, they're very young, I hope we see progress. No excuse for being out-rebounded today. I don't know what to do about the missed lay-ups. Lousy free throw shooting too. But remember that Louisville was supposed to be better than us this year. Still would have been nice to have a better showing.

[Kfanarmy]

Can she not bring in an assistant to teach and coach offense?

[GGLC]

Offense is overrated.

[aswewere]

Offense is overrated.

There is no offensive system in place like a good motion 4 out to free up our shooters. That leaves most trips down court trying to force it inside, which gives high turn overs against decent teams. As I have said earlier she
needs help and its only a phone call away.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Tomorrow will be the first time since when that we have not been in the top 25?

[dudog84]

Inspired by this game, I looked at the Sagarin Predictor ratings for Duke WBB over the last few years. I needed to use the internet archive to find ratings before this year alas. The Predictor attempts to determine true talent and cares about margin of victory. Here's how Duke has been:

11-12: Duke #5 Predictor
12-13: Duke #4 Predictor
13-14: Duke #3 Predictor
14-15: Duke #10 Predictor
15-16: Duke #22 Predictor

So 3 straight years, Duke was a borderline Final Four level team in talent (even if they fell short). The last two years, they've fallen out of that talent level (especially this year). It's one thing if it was a blip, like last year appeared to be (being #10 one year after 3 straight top 5 years happens), but after last year's "down" year, #22 is more than a bit concerning.

I'm telling yall nothing new I know. But it's nice to have #s to show what our emotion says is in fact based in truth. There's an issue here.

So let's take a look at those years.

11-12: Top-10 recruit Amber Henson plays in 8 games before redshirting due to ongoing knee problems that continue from high school. Top-10 recruit Richa Jackson, a sophomore who is really coming on, goes down in February. The team finishes 15-1 in the ACC, and as a reward gets to face #1 seed Stanford in Fresno. Stanford starts a couple of sisters named Ogwumike, who are both #1 picks in the WNBA draft and WNBA Rookies of the Year. We lose by 12 in the Elite Eight.

12-13: Amber just sits out the whole year. Richa Jackson is never the same coming back from her knee injury. But the real killer is Chelsea Gray (#4 ranked recruit ESPN), IMO the most important recruit of the past decade, goes down. The team still goes 17-1 in the ACC, but again gets a #2 seed. They lose to #1 seed Notre Dame, led by Skylar Diggins, Jewell Loyd, Kayla McBride, and Natalie Achonwa (a pretty good team) by 11 in the Elite Eight.

13-14: Chelsea goes down again, as does Alexis Jones (#3 ranked recruit ESPN). Gutted, hard to run a team without a point guard. Team still goes 28-7, but as a #3 seed (I think) has to face the #23 ranked team in the country in the round of 32. How the heck does that happen?

14-15: Playing without a point guard, the team is still snake-bit by injuries as top-10 recruits Lynee Belton and Oderah Chidom both go down during the season to injury. Team makes the Sweet Sixteen.

So with the exception of 13-14, nothing is really out of line. Considering injuries, maybe we exceeded expectations.

This year: I think Amber is using her scholarship to get a Master's degree. That is NOT a complaint, I say good for her. She may have suffered more for Duke basketball than anyone in memory. But after six (?) knee surgeries, she doesn't appear to have much hop left. But she is a much needed steadying mature presence (even though she has missed about half the games so far). Next in maturity are 2 juniors, one of who we have already lost for the season (and I think Kendall Cooper was ranked #12 in high school by ESPN). So then we've got two sophomores who play a lot, but the rest are freshmen. To me, that's a recipe for a long, sometimes ugly season. But I'm enjoying it, maybe I'm a glutton for punishment.

BTW, I checked the media guide and Azura Stevens was ranked #23 by ESPN, but if you average her other high school rankings she was #40. How did she turn into this great player?

I think we have to hope for health, and give this coach time to mold this very young team. It's probably not going to be this year. But more importantly, I think AD Kevin White is going to give her the time. So you can come along for the ride. Or not.

[martydoesntfoul]

Sorry, I think the "tremendous success at Cal" set me off a bit.

Oh, and comparing anybody to Coach K? If we're going to do that, we need to fire all the other coaches at Duke.

So help me understand what set you off regarding "tremendous success." Joanne inherited a program coming off of 12 consecutive losing seasons and promptly ran off six seasons without a losing record, including four with between 23 and 27 wins.

Since Cal joined the Pac-10 in 1986-87 through 2004-05 (the season before Joanne's arrival), the program had a total of two 20 win seasons (21 in 1986-87 and 20 in 1991-92). The winning percentage of her predecessors in Pac-10 play? That would be 72-108 (.400), 16-56 (.222), and then 23-67 (.256). Joanne followed that going 70-38 (.648). Her .681 overall winning percentage was the best in program history (.557 was the previous best), and her 2007-08 team reached the best ranking in program history (No. 8 in the AP).

In her first season (2005-06), Cal received its first NCAA bid since 1993. She went four times and won an NIT title.

You and I may differ on the definition of "tremendous", but come on. Additionally, I was not comparing anyone to K. I was simply pointing out one of his best attributes.

[Sandman]

Some responses to complaints about the poor performance by the women's team have used the argument of an excessive number of injuries to explain what has happened. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but it does lead me to one observation and question. Watching the games on TV, our team looks to be less physically fit than the teams they are playing, especially the better teams. Question: How good is our women's strength and conditioning program relative to other programs (e.g., Connecticut, Notre Dame, Stanford), and could poor conditioning lead to excessive injuries?

[msdukie]

Oh, and comparing anybody to Coach K? If we're going to do that, we need to fire all the other coaches at Duke.


Yeah, I'd start with that Dan Brooks guy and that John Danowksi guy, because they clearly have done nothing comparable.....

[aswewere]

Yeah, I'd start with that Dan Brooks guy and that John Danowksi guy, because they clearly have done nothing comparable....

Obviously you are impressed with the coaching you have seen. What do you suggest a pay raise to 1.5 Mil
and another 5 years extension ? Yes there are expectations that most of us share that are much higher
than what we seen under coach P.

[Class of '94]

I asked this question earlier in the season; and wanted to get insight from those who are closely following the team. After playing Kentucky, South Carolina and Louisville, how good is this team right now and is this team getting better? Serious question and not intended to troll anyone.

I've been watching the team; and as many posters have noted, I am seeing similar turnover and poor shooting issues that have plagued this program in recent years. Is this year's turnover and shooting issues due to having young players? I was hoping with now having "guards", the turnover issues would have decreased this season, and I get we have young/freshmen guards playing; however, I would have hoped to have seen some improvement in their play as the season went along. Maybe the team has improved; and it doesn't show when they are playing really good teams.

My post is not intended to tear down the Head Coach. To be fair to Coach P, I thought we had Final 4 potential teams a few years ago; but the team was derailed by injuries to our starting PGs in back to back seasons. I give credit to P for holding the team together during those tumultuous years; and even last year when we had no guards. I think P has done some great things as many of the posters have pointed out.

I do have some concern (more than the players transferring) that assistant coaches have left Duke under P for lateral moves; but I don't have any inside info on that and can't comment on the reasons for why it happened. At this point, my focus is on the team and this program. I won't so much for the DWB team to make it to Final 4s and win national championships. Personally, I don't think it is unrealistic to think it can happen; but the program clearly has a lot of work to do to get there. While I agree that over the tenure of P's career at Duke the program has consistently beaten top 10 and top 25 teams, the program has struggled to beat the elite of the elite teams like ND, UConn, Stanford, etc.; and unfortunately, as posters have pointed out, there is not a lot of parody in the women's game right now; and if Duke wants to win a National Championship, they most likely will have to go through the elite of elite teams to do so. Right now, based on past results against those teams, our chances of winning a NC doesn't look good.

That being said, all of this can change over the next couple of years. IMO, this team has the talent to compete for Final 4s over the next few years. Am I wrong? Is this team very talented or am I overestimating these players, especially the freshmen and sophomores? It appears that this year's team is trending downward at this point. What's the ceiling for this year's team and what will it take for the DWB to get back to a Final 4 and compete for a NC again? Again, please don't take my post as taking pot shots at Coach P. I think she has proven to be a very capable coach and a fantastic recruiter; and she can be the coach to get this program back to Final 4s. I want to see her and her players do well because I want the best for this program. What needs to be done at this point to point the team in that direction and is it even possible? Am I being unfair to this program to think it can compete for Final 4s and NCs? These are things I'd love to get insight from those who much closer to the program and more knowledgeable than I.

[aswewere]

Louisville game write up by DWHOOPS http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601101-louisville-65-duke-48.php

[Kedsy]

That being said, all of this can change over the next couple of years. IMO, this team has the talent to compete for Final 4s over the next few years. Am I wrong?

Next season, Duke could potentially be a top 5 team and compete for a Final Four, with the addition of All-American talent Lexie Brown and top wing recruit Leaonna Odom, the assumed development/progression of Azurá Stevens, Angela Salvadores, Rebecca Greenwell, Kyra Lambert, Oderah Chidom, Lynee' Belton, and Crystal Primm (as well as Faith Suggs and Erin Mathias, though it's hard to see either of them in big roles next season), the return of Haley Gorecki and (hopefully) Kendall Cooper, and the departure of only Amber Henson and Mercedes Riggs. Assuming no catastrophic injuries or unexpected departures, we should be crazy good for at least the next two seasons and probably beyond.

That said, despite the really bad losses to two full-court pressing teams, I haven't given up on this year. We have a lot of talent. Admittedly, we've looked really bad against the press and we need to learn to protect the ball better. But that's a common problem for young teams, and Duke is one of the youngest teams in the country.

One issue that might explain our struggles even more than taking care of the ball is our relative lack of outside shooting. Both last season and this, our only reliable outside threat has been Rebecca Greenwell. Teams that can neutralize Becca's outside game (either by focusing their defensive gameplan on her or by pressing and thus preventing us from getting into our halfcourt offense) have been able to beat us. In fact, despite our having an All-American forward, most teams seem to be focusing on stopping Becca. The only way that changes this year is if Kyra or Angela (or both) become reliable outside threats. Will that happen? I don't know. If it does, most teams will be wary of playing us in March.

One thing I do know, however, is I'm really tired of every loss by Duke women's basketball being treated as a referendum on the coach.

[cspan37421]

unfortunately, as posters have pointed out, there is not a lot of parody in the women's game right now;

I don't know ... I sense some other posters beg to differ on that count. They might say that's the very issue!

;)

[Kfanarmy]

Offense is overrated.

Relative obviously. In any game where high score wins, the relative difference between one team's offense and the other team's defense decides the winner. No game can be won with only defense, while (theoretically speaking) a 100% efficient offense could win every game.

[Class of '94]

Next season, Duke could potentially be a top 5 team and compete for a Final Four, with the addition of All-American talent Lexie Brown and top wing recruit Leaonna Odom, the assumed development/progression of Azurá Stevens, Angela Salvadores, Rebecca Greenwell, Kyra Lambert, Oderah Chidom, Lynee' Belton, and Crystal Primm (as well as Faith Suggs and Erin Mathias, though it's hard to see either of them in big roles next season), the return of Haley Gorecki and (hopefully) Kendall Cooper, and the departure of only Amber Henson and Mercedes Riggs. Assuming no catastrophic injuries or unexpected departures, we should be crazy good for at least the next two seasons and probably beyond.

That said, despite the really bad losses to two full-court pressing teams, I haven't given up on this year. We have a lot of talent. Admittedly, we've looked really bad against the press and we need to learn to protect the ball better. But that's a common problem for young teams, and Duke is one of the youngest teams in the country.

One issue that might explain our struggles even more than taking care of the ball is our relative lack of outside shooting. Both last season and this, our only reliable outside threat has been Rebecca Greenwell. Teams that can neutralize Becca's outside game (either by focusing their defensive gameplan on her or by pressing and thus preventing us from getting into our halfcourt offense) have been able to beat us. In fact, despite our having an All-American forward, most teams seem to be focusing on stopping Becca. The only way that changes this year is if Kyra or Angela (or both) become reliable outside threats. Will that happen? I don't know. If it does, most teams will be wary of playing us in March.

One thing I do know, however, is I'm really tired of every loss by Duke women's basketball being treated as a referendum on the coach.

Thanks Kedsy for your insight.....As far as the referendum of the coach, we all have been spoiled by the success achieved by Coach G, especially towards the end of her career at Duke; and to her credit, Coach P continued that success to a high level (recuriting, ACC championships). And when it is perceived that the program has dipped in terms of being able to compete with and beat those elite of elite teams along with the fact that looking from afar the two coaches appear to have different styles in regards to playing offense and defense, some people to start to wonder. Not saying it is right nor trying to justify/make excuses for how people may feel. Rather, I'm just trying to make an attempt to explain how some may feel (and probably doing a horrible job of it). Again, I respect your insight and how you provide facts to support your thoughts; and appreciate how you care and support the DWB 100%.

[aswewere]

One thing I do know, however, is I'm really tired of every loss by Duke women's basketball being treated as a referendum on the coach.

I am tired of being embarrassed every time a decent defense shuts down our non existent offensive
game plans. The players tell me they spend most of there time on defense and getting beat up in
traps by the men practice players and boy does it show even on lay ups. Coach can either put in a system
that will allow us to compete or some one else will be happy to help us out in a few years.

[dudog84]

Next season, Duke could potentially be a top 5 team and compete for a Final Four, with the addition of All-American talent Lexie Brown and top wing recruit Leaonna Odom, the assumed development/progression of Azurá Stevens, Angela Salvadores, Rebecca Greenwell, Kyra Lambert, Oderah Chidom, Lynee' Belton, and Crystal Primm (as well as Faith Suggs and Erin Mathias, though it's hard to see either of them in big roles next season), the return of Haley Gorecki and (hopefully) Kendall Cooper, and the departure of only Amber Henson and Mercedes Riggs. Assuming no catastrophic injuries or unexpected departures, we should be crazy good for at least the next two seasons and probably beyond.

That said, despite the really bad losses to two full-court pressing teams, I haven't given up on this year. We have a lot of talent. Admittedly, we've looked really bad against the press and we need to learn to protect the ball better. But that's a common problem for young teams, and Duke is one of the youngest teams in the country.

One issue that might explain our struggles even more than taking care of the ball is our relative lack of outside shooting. Both last season and this, our only reliable outside threat has been Rebecca Greenwell. Teams that can neutralize Becca's outside game (either by focusing their defensive gameplan on her or by pressing and thus preventing us from getting into our halfcourt offense) have been able to beat us. In fact, despite our having an All-American forward, most teams seem to be focusing on stopping Becca. The only way that changes this year is if Kyra or Angela (or both) become reliable outside threats. Will that happen? I don't know. If it does, most teams will be wary of playing us in March.

One thing I do know, however, is I'm really tired of every loss by Duke women's basketball being treated as a referendum on the coach.

Very astute, as usual.

Let’s take a closer look at this team.

Do y’all realize that despite all the great recruiting classes, we don’t have a single consensus top-5 recruit on the team? The only indisputable top-2 recruit we’ve ever gotten was Elizabeth Williams, and with our luck she was more interested in becoming a doctor than earning $50,000/year in the WNBA. Imagine that! Of course that’s completely tongue-in-cheek, I’m proud of Elizabeth and all our girls. You know, we could run our team like another just 8 miles away. But this points out another thing…maybe even our top recruits are interested in getting a great free education for a bright future than honing their skills for a mediocre job. However, from what I’ve seen they work pretty hard.

Back to this team. Do y’all realize that our top-ranked non-freshamn big had a consensus ranking of 38? I’m leaving out Amber, because after all the knee surgeries she is clearly not the player she was. I didn’t know this, because I usually only check ESPN (it’s the easiest) and they had Oderah at 10. But another ranking service had her at 79! I don’t know the ins and outs of these rankings, or their qualifications, but that’s a pretty wide discrepancy of talent evaluation.

I checked a few of the other girls and it is often this way, except for the very top players. And even if we accept Oderah as a #10, there’s a big difference between her and a Breanna Stewart or an Ogwumike. Hence another problem with the ranking of recruiting classes. It seems that after the top few players, there’s a pretty big drop-off among the women. And maybe Duke will never get those players. Because maybe they really go to college to play basketball because they are the only ones that will make much of a living off of it with some endorsements and extra money playing overseas.

Our top recruit this year is Angela, ranked #5 by ESPN. But #22 by another service. She burst upon the scene when she racked up 40 points against the US team. But in an early interview this year, she said that her Duke teammates were better than her Spanish teammates. Spain was consistently one of the top 2 or 3 teams in Europe, so you can imagine the shock it is for her to go up against other top programs. She’s got a big adjustment to make. Plus she was late getting to campus with the rest of the team because of her heavy summer schedule with the Spanish team and even then was held out a while. Plus there’s the language issue, which I’m sure will be much better by next year. I’m slow enough ordering a cerveza overseas, I can’t imagine trying to make decisions on a basketball court and communicate with my teammates with any speed.

Me, I’d rather have good students out there hoopin’ hard. That’s not to dis any other teams, schools, or players. To me, Duke is still a University first. Championships are nice, but that’s not where my pride in school comes from. This is not meant to spur a discussion, but I miss watching the boys grow, both on the court and in news conferences, etc., during 4 years. I know we “had” to do it to compete, and I don’t blame the kids for one second for taking the money (I would do it), but it still makes me a bit sad.

To sum up, I’m going to support this team, and that means supporting the coach they chose to play for. That’s not to say in any way that criticism is unacceptable (being out-rebounded yesterday is unacceptable). But I find it hilarious that some people get so worked up and think Duke should fire a coach with her record. Her ACC winning percentage is first all-time for pete’s sake. I’m gonna support ‘em win or lose, pretty or ugly, short of some mess like we see at uNC.

[aswewere]

Very astute, as usual.

Let’s take a closer look at this team.

Do y’all realize that despite all the great recruiting classes, we don’t have a single consensus top-5 recruit on the team? The only indisputable top-2 recruit we’ve ever gotten was Elizabeth Williams, and with our luck she was more interested in becoming a doctor than earning $50,000/year in the WNBA. Imagine that! Of course that’s completely tongue-in-cheek, I’m proud of Elizabeth and all our girls. You know, we could run our team like another just 8 miles away. But this points out another thing…maybe even our top recruits are interested in getting a great free education for a bright future than honing their skills for a mediocre job. However, from what I’ve seen they work pretty hard.

Back to this team. Do y’all realize that our top-ranked non-freshamn big had a consensus ranking of 38? I’m leaving out Amber, because after all the knee surgeries she is clearly not the player she was. I didn’t know this, because I usually only check ESPN (it’s the easiest) and they had Oderah at 10. But another ranking service had her at 79! I don’t know the ins and outs of these rankings, or their qualifications, but that’s a pretty wide discrepancy of talent evaluation.

I checked a few of the other girls and it is often this way, except for the very top players. And even if we accept Oderah as a #10, there’s a big difference between her and a Breanna Stewart or an Ogwumike. Hence another problem with the ranking of recruiting classes. It seems that after the top few players, there’s a pretty big drop-off among the women. And maybe Duke will never get those players. Because maybe they really go to college to play basketball because they are the only ones that will make much of a living off of it with some endorsements and extra money playing overseas.

Our top recruit this year is Angela, ranked #5 by ESPN. But #22 by another service. She burst upon the scene when she racked up 40 points against the US team. But in an early interview this year, she said that her Duke teammates were better than her Spanish teammates. Spain was consistently one of the top 2 or 3 teams in Europe, so you can imagine the shock it is for her to go up against other top programs. She’s got a big adjustment to make. Plus she was late getting to campus with the rest of the team because of her heavy summer schedule with the Spanish team and even then was held out a while. Plus there’s the language issue, which I’m sure will be much better by next year. I’m slow enough ordering a cerveza overseas, I can’t imagine trying to make decisions on a basketball court and communicate with my teammates with any speed.

Me, I’d rather have good students out there hoopin’ hard. That’s not to dis any other teams, schools, or players. To me, Duke is still a University first. Championships are nice, but that’s not where my pride in school comes from. This is not meant to spur a discussion, but I miss watching the boys grow, both on the court and in news conferences, etc., during 4 years. I know we “had” to do it to compete, and I don’t blame the kids for one second for taking the money (I would do it), but it still makes me a bit sad.

To sum up, I’m going to support this team, and that means supporting the coach they chose to play for. That’s not to say in any way that criticism is unacceptable (being out-rebounded yesterday is unacceptable). But I find it hilarious that some people get so worked up and think Duke should fire a coach with her record. Her ACC winning percentage is first all-time for pete’s sake. I’m gonna support ‘em win or lose, pretty or ugly, short of some mess like we see at uNC.


I am also supporting my team that's why first thing this morning I placed a call to K White office,
begging for some knowable coaching help. In the real world most of us live in you don't get to use years
of excuses for not getting your job done.

[killerleft]

I am also supporting my team that's why first thing this morning I placed a call to K White office,
begging for some knowable coaching help. In the real world most of us live in you don't get to use years
of excuses for not getting your job done.

Have you ever read Peter and the Wolf?

[jtelander]

What happened to assistant coach Al Brown? He is no longer listed among the coaching staff and Michelle Van Gorp has been promoted to assistant coach.

[BigWayne]

What happened to assistant coach Al Brown? He is no longer listed among the coaching staff and Michelle Van Gorp has been promoted to assistant coach.

He had medical issues that sidelined him last year. My guess is that something recurred to force him out.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210458591

[CameronBornAndBred]

I am also supporting my team that's why first thing this morning I placed a call to K White office,
begging for some knowable coaching help. In the real world most of us live in you don't get to use years
of excuses for not getting your job done.
What was the reply?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Surprisingly (to me anyway), Duke stayed in the top 25 this week. 22nd.

[dudog84]

I am also supporting my team that's why first thing this morning I placed a call to K White office,
begging for some knowable coaching help. In the real world most of us live in you don't get to use years
of excuses for not getting your job done.

What the hell? Where are the excuses? Please give us the job description that you obviously have access to. Is your own job description be #1 in the world, even top 5, or you're fired? I seriously doubt it.

Thank God K White has a brain.

[wandalee]

Al has been on the sidelines all season, but isn't listed as a coach. Don't know why.

[OldPhiKap]

I do not profess to be an expert on our women's basketball team. But FWIW:

Since 2010, if my stats are right, Duke's WBB team won the ACC regular season title 4 times, the conference tourney three times, and Coach P was ACC COY twice. As a marker, Coach K in that time has won the ACC regular season championship only twice, the ACC tournament only once, and he has not been ACC COY since 2000. Yet no one would argue that K underperformed during the regular season over that span. Alternatively, one can make a similar comparison with the first eight years that Coach P has been here with K's first eight. So it seems to me that Coach P holds her own in regular season and the conference tourney.

The big difference, of course, is in the NCAA tourney results. But if we compare P's eight seasons at Duke (I.e. all of her completed seasons) with K's first eight, K had two final fours, one sweet sixteen, two rounds of 32 and three NCAA no invites. P has made the tourney all eight years, with four elite eights and four earlier exits. So P has been more consistent, K was less so but with bigger highs and lows. P inherited more than K did though to be fair.

Coach P has won over 80% of her games at Duke I think.

What if anything does this tell me? While one cannot make a strict comparison between MBB and WBB, it is clear to me that Coach P is a very accomplished coach. My bottom line is that Kevin White is one of the best ADs in the country and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do about this. If he feels (as he apparently does) that P is the person for the job, then she's my coach.

Let's go Duke!

[duke09hms]

I do not profess to be an expert on our women's basketball team. But FWIW:

Since 2010, if my stats are right, Duke's WBB team won the ACC regular season title 4 times, the conference tourney three times, and Coach P was ACC COY twice. As a marker, Coach K in that time has won the ACC regular season championship only twice, the ACC tournament only once, and he has not been ACC COY since 2000. Yet no one would argue that K underperformed during the regular season over that span. Alternatively, one can make a similar comparison with the first eight years that Coach P has been here with K's first eight. So it seems to me that Coach P holds her own in regular season and the conference tourney.

The big difference, of course, is in the NCAA tourney results. But if we compare P's eight seasons at Duke (I.e. all of her completed seasons) with K's first eight, K had two final fours, one sweet sixteen, two rounds of 32 and three NCAA no invites. P has made the tourney all eight years, with four elite eights and four earlier exits. So P has been more consistent, K was less so but with bigger highs and lows. P inherited more than K did though to be fair.

Coach P has won over 80% of her games at Duke I think.

What if anything does this tell me? While one cannot make a strict comparison between MBB and WBB, it is clear to me that Coach P is a very accomplished coach. My bottom line is that Kevin White is one of the best ADs in the country and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do about this. If he feels (as he apparently does) that P is the person for the job, then she's my coach.

Let's go Duke!

Isn't this a hugely faulty comparison between P's first eight years and K's first eight years? The coffers were empty when K started whereas Coach G was coming off a lot of FFs in several years.

I'd refer you to uh_no's really good objective analysis on the situation: http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37186-An-Objective-Look-at-Women-s-Basketball

Basically, when it comes to the postseason, Duke has done less with far more talent than just about any other peer program. Now this study doesn't take injuries into perfect consideration given that it may be possible Duke has been significantly more snakebit than all of its peers. From our Duke-centric bias, that certainly seems to be the case, but I'd wager we don't know for sure.

[OldPhiKap]

Isn't this a hugely faulty comparison between P's first eight years and K's first eight years? The coffers were empty when K started whereas Coach G was coming off a lot of FFs in several years.

I'd refer you to uh_no's really good objective analysis on the situation: http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?37186-An-Objective-Look-at-Women-s-Basketball

Basically, when it comes to the postseason, Duke has done less with far more talent than just about any other peer program. Now this study doesn't take injuries into perfect consideration given that it may be possible Duke has been significantly more snakebit than all of its peers. From our Duke-centric bias, that certainly seems to be the case, but I'd wager we don't know for sure.

As I mentioned, P certainly was left with more than K inherited. Agreed. Even so, it seems to me that both have had ample success in the regular season and ACC tourneys.

If the argument against P is similar to the UGa Mark Richt one ("sure we win a lot of games, but not the Big Ones") then I guess my view is the same as it is to UGa fans. First, there is only one Alabama -- er, UConn -- and you don't always beat them. May not even beat them at all. And second, tourney wins are an odd thing because so many variables come in to play that it is a tough measuring stick for all but a very small circle of coaches, none of whom are leaving their current jobs to go somewhere else.

If the argument is that our training/conditioning is suspect, I have no idea one way or the other.

As I started my initial post, I do not follow WBB closely. From the "outside" (but as an interested alum) it seems we have a team which primarily takes care of business during the season and has yet to have the big post-season breakthrough. Am I generally right about that? If so, it would seem that P has the chops to get it done ultimately and thus Dr. White's decision to stick with her is a whole lot less controversial than Tom Butters sticking by a coach with a crappy record and a damn funny name no one could spell back in the day.

[jtelander]

Al has been on the sidelines all season, but isn't listed as a coach. Don't know why.

Al Brown was listed as an assistant earlier in the season, but now he's not there and his photo is no longer included on this goduke page
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1846&SPSID=22761

Has he been on the sidelines each of the last three games?

Earlier in the season Michelle Van Gorp was listed as "Director of Recruiting Operations" ...now she is shown as an assistant coach.

I've searched for an announcement but haven't found one

[aswewere]

Al Brown was listed as an assistant earlier in the season, but now he's not there and his photo is no longer included on this goduke page
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1846&SPSID=22761

Has he been on the sidelines each of the last three games?

Earlier in the season Michelle Van Gorp was listed as "Director of Recruiting Operations" ...now she is shown as an assistant coach.

I've searched for an announcement but haven't found one

Yes he is on our bench and there has been no announcement of changes, this is not unusual at all
from our program when players / assistant transfer. This leaves many of us felling more detached and
less part of the program.

[DU82]

Al Brown was listed as an assistant earlier in the season, but now he's not there and his photo is no longer included on this goduke page
http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1846&SPSID=22761

Has he been on the sidelines each of the last three games?

Earlier in the season Michelle Van Gorp was listed as "Director of Recruiting Operations" ...now she is shown as an assistant coach.

I've searched for an announcement but haven't found one

We noticed it in the program for the last home game last Thursday. Coach Brown is listed as providing info/discussion in a chalk talk session this coming Thursday before the NC State game.

He was at the last home game (not sure about the Louisville away game since I wasn't able to watch it.). I did notice Michelle actively coaching during the game, which a "director of recruiting" wouldn't be able to do.

My guess is that Al's not able to be a full time assistant at this point, and Michelle has taken over the official role. While "no information" was a standard of the program in the past, during the past two SID office info has been a lot better (as has been the more aggressive marketing.). I note that Kendall, Amber and Haley's absences were immediately noted. I would hope we'll hear something on Thursday.

[Mike Corey]

Coach P has won over 80% of her games at Duke I think.

Yes, but Duke had been winning at a fantastic rate as it was. We're still winning at a fantastic clip, but we've taken a step back. We're still a top 10 program. We are no longer a top 5 program. No one should have their job jeopardized on that alone.

But to back up the point about Duke taking a step back:

In each of the 7 seasons before Coach P's arrival, Duke won at least 30 games. That's happened 3 times in Coach P's first 7 seasons.

8 seasons preceding Coach P: 248-31 (89%)
8 seasons under Coach P (not counting this season): 225-53 (81%)

Under Coach P, Duke is*...

Against Top 5 Opponents: 7-27 (20.59 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents: 19-34 (35.85 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents: 58-46 (55.77 percent)

*I'm out of time and can't run through the 8 seasons preceding Coach P to check Duke's record against ranked opponents.

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Previewing N C State at Duke
http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601131-preview-nc-state-at-duke.php

[duke09hms]

Yes, but Duke had been winning at a fantastic rate as it was. We're still winning at a fantastic clip, but we've taken a step back. We're still a top 10 program. We are no longer a top 5 program. No one should have their job jeopardized on that alone.


What about the fact we're doing less with more? After a succession of #1 recruiting classes or close to it, dropping out of the top 5 to top 10 is meaningful, especially given the extreme lack of parity in women's basketball. The most recent trendlines of last year and this year aren't looking too good either.

[downeastdad]

Al is on the sideline tonight, but fwiw I've not seen him actively coach in years. Seems to be doing stats or something. We're in serious turnover mode again by halftime, down four.

[downeastdad]

Down 7, 14 TO's in 24 minutes. What is going on? Someone with a better basketball IQ than I should help me out.
ded

[Indoor66]

I question the validity of women's rankings after about the 1st 2 or 3 players. It seems to be mostly a crap shoot.

[Sixthman]

Down 7, 14 TO's in 24 minutes. What is going on? Someone with a better basketball IQ than I should help me out.
ded

We played well here and there, but never on a sustained basis or either side of the ball. In fact, we were bad on a sustained basis on both sides of the ball for significant stretches. Losing isn't fun, so it is hard to tell, but none of the players look like they have a strong sense of purpose or that they are enjoying themselves. We seem to lack ball handlers, speed, physicality and a consistent three point threat. Azura Stevens is a heck of a ball player and a very fine finisher. You could do worse than to structure your entire offense around her and run every play with the purpose to get her a good shot. Someone needs to give her some help rebounding. This was the first Women's game I have watched this season. I think I may be unable to watch this team on a sustained basis. I feel bad about that.

[aswewere]

I went to the chalk talk held by Al Brown prior to the game, he took questions and mine was a request [ please - please lets go to a motion or other effective offense
that will free up our shooters against good defensive teams ] His response that's a good idea you may see a little of that in a week or so. He never owned up to continuing
to pound the ball inside as part of our turn our problems. He sees our youth as our big problem till more experienced, no mention that Louisville has the same or bigger
problem and just handed it to us. The food was excellent so I may go back in February for the next chalk talk.

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Previewing N C State at Duke
http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601131-preview-nc-state-at-duke.php


Game write up. http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601141-nc-state-65-duke-62.php

[aswewere]

Game write up. http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601141-nc-state-65-duke-62.php



Another big swing in the game was guarding the out side players in a straight up position and they would dribble around us for uncontested lay ups with
no weak side help, about a half dozen times. Playing Riggs our best bench cheer leader is essentially giving them 5 on 4. I have had season tickets for 16
years and will be looking for big changes to consider next years purchase.

[cspan37421]

Game write up. http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601141-nc-state-65-duke-62.php

Despite the awful truth in prose, that's some really nice game photography on that site.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Streaks broken last night.

1st game since 1996 that State has walked away from Cameron with a victory.
Duke had beaten 152 unranked teams at home.

[PackMan97]

Streaks broken last night.

1st game since 1996 that State has walked away from Cameron with a victory.
Duke had beaten 152 unranked teams at home.

Wes Moore has done a great job with the Lady Wolfpack. I was really surprised Kellie Harper didn't work out. Sorry to end your streak. (Not really).

[Mike Corey]

Someone was kind enough to complete some research on Duke's performance against ranked teams.

As a refresher, under Coach P, Duke's record is as follows:

Against Top 5 Opponents: 7-27 (20.59%)
Against Top 10 Opponents: 19-34 (35.85%)
Against Ranked Opponents: 58-46 (55.77%)

In the seven years preceding Coach P's tenure, Duke's record was as follows:

Top 5: 14-14 (50%)
Top 10: 25-14 (64%)
Ranked: 60-20 (80%).

[Kfanarmy]

Kinda shocked to read this...What's going on with the TOs? How do you get a lane violation on the first of three free throws?

[GGLC]

I really hope we can keep Salvadores for next season.

[uh_no]

So I'll be the first to bet that we finish above .250 in conference....but at our current trajectory, is a tournament bid at risk?

I've compiled the RPI of the team's we've played and the RPIs of the teams we have yet to play and tried to come up with some pattern:


texas a&m 29
south carolina 4
uk 9
cuse 37
UL 19
ncsu 48

penn 57
wintrhop 284
army 102
idaho 117
iowa st 77
tx state 142
minnesota 123
umass 205
liberty 109
western carolina 311
uncw 239
wake 182

Well, given those results, it would appear that duke is sitting squarely around the 50 in the RPI mark. This jibes with their actual ranking, which is currently 45. So how does that fare for the rest of the season?

bc 56
clemson 226
UNC 97
pitt 150
ND 1
uva 81
miami 41
fsu 21
wake 182
vt 63
gt 93
unc 97

so out of those, we see likely a sure loss to ND, a pretty sure loss to FSU, and "maybes" vs bC miami and VT. That puts us at 12-6 to 10-8 ish in conference. I would have to go look at what kind of records traditionally put ACC teams in the tournament, but I would hav to guess that we would be sitting 100% squarely on the bubble, and would have an RPI hovering around 50, with the potential of no top 50 wins. I think we would be on the outside looking in just based on a lack of quality wins. (given I know less about how the women's committee makes their inclusion decisions). Given that there are fewer at-large bids in the women's (no play in games), we might be sweating.

that's IF we continue on our current trajectory. Maybe we'll turn it around....beat FSU, beat miami, beat one of them again and end up in the ACC finals....but right now, it doesn't appear that this team is trending upwards. good thing the ACC schedule worked out in our favor this year.

[duke09hms]

Someone was kind enough to complete some research on Duke's performance against ranked teams.

As a refresher, under Coach P, Duke's record is as follows:

Against Top 5 Opponents: 7-27 (20.59%)
Against Top 10 Opponents: 19-34 (35.85%)
Against Ranked Opponents: 58-46 (55.77%)

In the seven years preceding Coach P's tenure, Duke's record was as follows:

Top 5: 14-14 (50%)
Top 10: 25-14 (64%)
Ranked: 60-20 (80%).

Wow, thanks to whoever went through this data for you. The comparison is quite damning considering the recent trendlines for Coach McCallie are going in the wrong direction :(

[Kedsy]

I really hope we can keep Salvadores for next season.

What do you mean by this?

[GGLC]

What do you mean by this?

I mean that I really hope we can keep Salvadores for next season. What part was unclear? There is, and would be, nothing stopping her from going back to Spain whenever she wants, as far as I'm aware.

[bluedevilsince72]

Good question. Why would Salvadores stay? Is she getting better? Is she learning and improving in Duke's offensive system? Is she enjoying the experience of american college basketball? She could make good money as a pro in Spain. Don't know how important a Duke degree is to her but hopefully it is important and she will want to stick it out.

[burnspbesq]

This isn't rocket surgery.

We're very inexperienced.

Our best player is running with the scout team.

This was always going to be a difficult, transitional year. Anyone who hadn't figured that out by last April ...

That said, we are still really bad at closing out to the three-point line in the 2-3 zone, and equally bad in rotating behind the closeout. That's part poor alignment (arguably a system issue), and part bad execution. If you want to scrap the 2-3, which has suffered from those problems this entire decade, you won't get much of an argument from me, but you'd better figure out who Greenie and Angela are going to guard.

The turnovers are mostly poor execution, but also due in part to an apparent lack of a Plan B late in the shot clock. That will get better next year when we have a player who can get her own shot, or force a rotation, any time she wants.

If somebody wants to paint a Duke logo on an armored truck, park it outside Jadwin Gym, and see if you get a bite, knock yourself out. Until then, I'm continuing to support the team.

[burnspbesq]

Good question. Why would Salvadores stay? Is she getting better? Is she learning and improving in Duke's offensive system? Is she enjoying the experience of american college basketball? She could make good money as a pro in Spain. Don't know how important a Duke degree is to her but hopefully it is important and she will want to stick it out.

How important is a Duke degree to Angela? Consider this: she played in the Spanish pro league for nothing last year. You can draw your own conclusion, but that tells me something.

[killerleft]

I mean that I really hope we can keep Salvadores for next season. What part was unclear? There is, and would be, nothing stopping her from going back to Spain whenever she wants, as far as I'm aware.

Oh. Well, then, let's add every other student/athlete at Duke as a feel-good "hope-they-stay" wish? Because I don't want to lose any of them with eligibility, and I'd love to have Jeremy Cash play another year because he isn't from Spain!!

Is that what we do now? Make something up about a player just for the heck of it?

[aswewere]

Oh. Well, then, let's add every other student/athlete at Duke as a feel-good "hope-they-stay" wish? Because I don't want to lose any of them with eligibility, and I'd love to have Jeremy Cash play another year because he isn't from Spain!!

Is that what we do now? Make something up about a player just for the heck of it?

I seem to recall players and assistants leaving this team when things hadn't started down hill. Sounds like a logical concern to me.

[killerleft]

Then you may worry about it. She was recruited by Coach P. McCallie's leaving may be more of a concern to her. Or any other player who felt Coach P was tarred, feathered and run out of town spurred on by whatever the anti-P crowd wants to call themselves.

[devildeac]

This isn't rocket surgery.

We're very inexperienced.

Our best player is running with the scout team.

This was always going to be a difficult, transitional year. Anyone who hadn't figured that out by last April ...

That said, we are still really bad at closing out to the three-point line in the 2-3 zone, and equally bad in rotating behind the closeout. That's part poor alignment (arguably a system issue), and part bad execution. If you want to scrap the 2-3, which has suffered from those problems this entire decade, you won't get much of an argument from me, but you'd better figure out who Greenie and Angela are going to guard.

The turnovers are mostly poor execution, but also due in part to an apparent lack of a Plan B late in the shot clock. That will get better next year when we have a player who can get her own shot, or force a rotation, any time she wants.

If somebody wants to paint a Duke logo on an armored truck, park it outside Jadwin Gym, and see if you get a bite, knock yourself out. Until then, I'm continuing to support the team.

Hmmm...

Wonder if she likes BBQ?

http://www.goprincetontigers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=919351

(kidding, kidding)

[aswewere]

Then you may worry about it. She was recruited by Coach P. McCallie's leaving may be more of a concern to her. Or any other player who felt Coach P was tarred, feathered and run out of town spurred on by whatever the anti-P crowd wants to call themselves.

Just call us the fans that appreciate good coaching and every time there is a problem are tired of finding our players under the bus.

[burnspbesq]

Just call us the fans that appreciate good coaching and every time there is a problem are tired of finding our players under the bus.

There is a wide variety of other appellations that would be more accurate, but it's not worth it. This thread has already outlived its usefulness.

[dudog84]

I responded to a PM with something like this, so I thought I’d share it with the board (ain’t ya lucky? I even expanded it quite a bit).

I always thought there were interesting parallels between Coach K’s and Coach P’s early recruiting. After several lackluster classes, K struck it rich with his 3rd class (Johnny Dawkins, et. al.). I still remember the picture in The Chronicle of the skinny guard from D.C. that was the lynchpin of the class and the optimism it brought. P got hers with number 4 (Chelsea Gray (lynchpin), et. al.).

What happens to that men’s team if Mark Alarie (2nd best recruit of the class) gets injured in the middle of his sophomore year? That’s what happened to Richa Jackson, who was the #6 ranked recruit nationally in that class. Do we make the ACC Tournament finals? Almost no chance, Mark was the leading scorer in the quarters and semis, which we won by 4 points over Tech and 2 points over uNC. Anyone who remembers that game knows it was the turning point for the program. uNC had Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, and Kenny Smith on that team.

So what if Mark is never the same player after knee surgery, and as a junior the next year Johnny Dawkins (Chelsea Gray) goes down? Does that team go 23-8? No. Now the trajectory of the Duke program is not so rosy. Maybe Danny Ferry doesn’t come to Duke.

And then what if in Johnny’s senior year, he gets hurt again. To make matters worse, so does Tommy Amaker (Alexis Jones). Do we win the ACC? Does that team even sniff the Final Four? No way in heck. So now Duke is not Duke. What happens to recruiting? Do Laettner, Hurley, and Hill come to Duke? Does Coach K become COACH K?

BTW, neither Johnny Dawkins nor Mark Alarie ever missed a game in a Duke uniform. Neither did Tommy Amaker. Danny Ferry missed 1 game in 4 years.

I don’t care how many great recruiting classes you have, if they are not on the court it doesn’t matter for spit. With the exception of Elizabeth Williams (and even she was hobbled much of the time), every single one of Coach P’s recruits who was ranked top 10 by any recruiting service prior to this season has been lost during/for a season. The list includes Chelsea Gray, Richa Jackson, Alexis Jones, Amber Henson, Rebecca Greenwell, Oderah Chidom, Lynee Belton, and Kendall Cooper.

Ok, that’s the past. A past that despite the injuries includes top-10 finishes in 6 of the past 7 years. How’s the future look?

This is a very, very young team. The only upperclassman that gets much playing time is Oderah Chidom. There are going to be growing pains, but the team has a lot of potential. Wouldn’t it be nice if Azura Stevens became our Christian Laettner? A big with inside/outside skills. And Angela Salvadores becomes our Bobby Hurley? Non-stop motor with passes that sometimes end up in the stands. I can dream, can’t I?

One final thing. I opened the sports page this morning and there were 35 men’s college basketball games on TV. Women’s…4. Two were on BTN, which I don’t even know what that is, one on Fox Sports Net, one on CBS Sports Net. Women’s basketball just doesn’t matter in this country. To think that Duke will fire a women’s basketball coach with P’s record is just ludicrous.

[aswewere]

I responded to a PM with something like this, so I thought I’d share it with the board (ain’t ya lucky? I even expanded it quite a bit).

I always thought there were interesting parallels between Coach K’s and Coach P’s early recruiting. After several lackluster classes, K struck it rich with his 3rd class (Johnny Dawkins, et. al.). I still remember the picture in The Chronicle of the skinny guard from D.C. that was the lynchpin of the class and the optimism it brought. P got hers with number 4 (Chelsea Gray (lynchpin), et. al.).

What happens to that men’s team if Mark Alarie (2nd best recruit of the class) gets injured in the middle of his sophomore year? That’s what happened to Richa Jackson, who was the #6 ranked recruit nationally in that class. Do we make the ACC Tournament finals? Almost no chance, Mark was the leading scorer in the quarters and semis, which we won by 4 points over Tech and 2 points over uNC. Anyone who remembers that game knows it was the turning point for the program. uNC had Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, and Kenny Smith on that team.

So what if Mark is never the same player after knee surgery, and as a junior the next year Johnny Dawkins (Chelsea Gray) goes down? Does that team go 23-8? No. Now the trajectory of the Duke program is not so rosy. Maybe Danny Ferry doesn’t come to Duke.

And then what if in Johnny’s senior year, he gets hurt again. To make matters worse, so does Tommy Amaker (Alexis Jones). Do we win the ACC? Does that team even sniff the Final Four? No way in heck. So now Duke is not Duke. What happens to recruiting? Do Laettner, Hurley, and Hill come to Duke? Does Coach K become COACH K?

BTW, neither Johnny Dawkins nor Mark Alarie ever missed a game in a Duke uniform. Neither did Tommy Amaker. Danny Ferry missed 1 game in 4 years.

I don’t care how many great recruiting classes you have, if they are not on the court it doesn’t matter for spit. With the exception of Elizabeth Williams (and even she was hobbled much of the time), every single one of Coach P’s recruits who was ranked top 10 by any recruiting service prior to this season has been lost during/for a season. The list includes Chelsea Gray, Richa Jackson, Alexis Jones, Amber Henson, Rebecca Greenwell, Oderah Chidom, Lynee Belton, and Kendall Cooper.

Ok, that’s the past. A past that despite the injuries includes top-10 finishes in 6 of the past 7 years. How’s the future look?

This is a very, very young team. The only upperclassman that gets much playing time is Oderah Chidom. There are going to be growing pains, but the team has a lot of potential. Wouldn’t it be nice if Azura Stevens became our Christian Laettner? A big with inside/outside skills. And Angela Salvadores becomes our Bobby Hurley? Non-stop motor with passes that sometimes end up in the stands. I can dream, can’t I?

One final thing. I opened the sports page this morning and there were 35 men’s college basketball games on TV. Women’s…4. Two were on BTN, which I don’t even know what that is, one on Fox Sports Net, one on CBS Sports Net. Women’s basketball just doesn’t matter in this country. To think that Duke will fire a women’s basketball coach with P’s record is just ludicrous.






All the above should have given her more of a reason to put in a better offense and for once say maybe its not always the players fault. We want get into our good assistants & players leaving today.

[AIM4excellence]

Then you may worry about it. She was recruited by Coach P. McCallie's leaving may be more of a concern to her. Or any other player who felt Coach P was tarred, feathered and run out of town spurred on by whatever the anti-P crowd wants to call themselves.

This has to be a first: the many excuses for post season underachieving are yawn-worthy by now, but this - an excuse for McCallie being relieved of her coaching responsibilities - this is a first. If this team is lucky enough to start next season under new leadership, it will solely be based on what is happening on the floor and lockerroom of this team. It will have absolutely nothing to do with what is posted on a message board.

[devilseven]

Then, why are you posting so frequently here and on TDD to disparage her?

[AIM4excellence]

Then, why are you posting so frequently here and on TDD to disparage her?

I don't think it's quite proper to refer to another message board here. I can speak to why I post here - which is to stay connected to the program so I can resume attending games when they become enjoyable to watch again. One thing that was enjoyable previously is that we could invite non wbb fans to attend games and let themselves get caught up in watching some exciting basketball at Duke. In this thread alone, I not only see Duke fans who aren't fans of women's basketball, but also big fans of Duke Women's Basketball who refer to the current team as "unwatchable." And many of us longtime fans have felt this team is unwatchable before this season - it has NOTHING to do with the number of frosh and inexperience of this year's team. It is the predictable and outdated offense employed by the current coach throughout her years at Duke that directly leads to Duke not being competitive with elite teams no matter how much talent she brings to the program. I continue to come here to connect with like-minded fans - and that number grows each year.

I find it highly amusing that so many people denigrate the validity and impact of posting criticism of the coach here and then start saying we "drove" this coach away. It clearly has had no impact on recruiting/

[devilseven]

Everyone knows what your agenda here is. You've made that quite clear, over and over and over.

[-jk]

I don't think it's quite proper to refer to another message board here.

...

We have a policy of respecting copyrights on material from other sites, but we have no policy about other message boards being referenced here.

-jk

[aswewere]

A lot of fans dissatisfaction started from day one when coach introduced her tractor offense to a team that was recruited to play a fast paced motion. There was no flexibility shown in her coaching style
for these players, its my way or the highway which Emily Waner took. This has been a very rocky marriage for a lot fans and unlike a marriage only coach can make any significant moves. This relationship
has a few years left there is still time for a turn around, as a old stubborn man I know how changes to things that have always worked good for me in the past are hard to accept. I don't need a new coach
just that warm, cozy, loving feeling again for my team.

[du_bb1]

what happened toSalvadores?? not listed in box score ??

[uh_no]

what happened toSalvadores?? not listed in box score ??

maybe she went back to spain :D

that was a much needed win, and resounding.

[DU82]

what happened toSalvadores?? not listed in box score ??

Angela was wearing a boot on her left foot, presumably to protect her ankle, which I believe she tweaked last game (or perhaps the game before that.) Lynee was out of the boot, but wasn't ready to play. (The box score on ESPN did have Angela and LEXIE in the game, though!)

A nice recovery from the State game. Started three bigs, Azura, Amber and Erin, with Rebecca and Kyra. Some nice inside-out game early, but Rebecca was way off with her shot. BC slowed it down, and the score was 30-18 at the half. 12 of those were a result of Hughes for BC, hitting three 3s and three FTs off a bad foul by Kyra.

BC changed things up at the half, going more inside, with their freshman center scoring four baskets on nice one-on-one spin moves in the paint. BC cut it to one midway through the third, but a couple of baskets and steals got Duke back up by 5-7. The lead got pushed further with good defense and Rebecca finally hitting her threes; she made five of them, I think all in the second half.

Amber seems to be getting back in the flow, with a few mid-range jumpers. Crystal had a couple nice drives to the basket, scoring or picking up fouls (she needs to hit her FTs though, as does the entire team, including Rebecca.) Erin started, didn't score but didn't do anything dumb. Oderah played well in the first half, but disappeared in the second, and had way too many turnovers again. Faith hit a key three to get the team back to a comfortable margin, and I thought earned more playing time for the next game.

Still a lot to work on, but I was worried about this game. I figured the team could continue its slide against mid-level ACC teams, but they did respond well, with energy and overall good play. Too many turnovers, but for once caused more by BC than they committed.

[aswewere]

A lot of fans dissatisfaction started from day one when coach introduced her tractor offense to a team that was recruited to play a fast paced motion. There was no flexibility shown in her coaching style
for these players, its my way or the highway which Emily Waner took. This has been a very rocky marriage for a lot fans and unlike a marriage only coach can make any significant moves. This relationship
has a few years left there is still time for a turn around, as a old stubborn man I know how changes to things that have always worked good for me in the past are hard to accept. I don't need a new coach
just that warm, cozy, loving feeling again for my team.


Regarding Emily Waner she will be here next weekend. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210635525&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[-jk]

A lot of fans dissatisfaction started from day one when coach introduced her tractor offense to a team that was recruited to play a fast paced motion. There was no flexibility shown in her coaching style for these players, its my way or the highway which Emily Waner took. This has been a very rocky marriage for a lot fans and unlike a marriage only coach can make any significant moves. This relationship has a few years left there is still time for a turn around, as a old stubborn man I know how changes to things that have always worked good for me in the past are hard to accept. I don't need a new coach just that warm, cozy, loving feeling again for my team.

Interesting parallel to Coach K and Foster's players...

-jk

[aswewere]

what happened toSalvadores?? not listed in box score ??

Check her out at bottom of pictures page by DWHOOPS. That big old wrap does not look good. http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601171-duke-71-boston-college-51.php

[DU82]

what happened toSalvadores?? not listed in box score ??

Update from the after game questions: Both Angela and Lynee are dealing with ankle sprains, and both hopefully will be back Thursday at Clemson.

[aswewere]

Another what IF for this years team. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jones-no-6-baylor-hand-no-4-texas-224142251--ncaaw.html

[burnspbesq]

Another what IF for this years team. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/jones-no-6-baylor-hand-no-4-texas-224142251--ncaaw.html

There is no what-if. Unless Alexis lied to ESPN in this article, her reasons for leaving had nothing to do with the state of the program, and everything to do with family issues.

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14576221/for-baylor-lady-bears-alexis-jones-playing-closer-home-was-best-all

[aswewere]

There is no what-if. Unless Alexis lied to ESPN in this article, her reasons for leaving had nothing to do with the state of the program, and everything to do with family issues.

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14576221/for-baylor-lady-bears-alexis-jones-playing-closer-home-was-best-all


Just meant it would be nice to have her this year the way things are going. She can create her own shots most of the time with out a system and that's always needed here.

[Kedsy]

Just meant it would be nice to have her this year the way things are going.

I agree the team's situation might have been very different in 2014, 2015, and 2016 if Alexis had never gotten hurt and had stayed at Duke. If her decision to leave Duke really was family-based, then it also should ameliorate the worry some people have about "all those transfers."

[aswewere]

Signee Leaonna Odom Selected McDonald’s All-America

Courtesy: Duke Sports Information
Release: 01/18/2016

DURHAM, N.C. – With the 2016 McDonald’s All-America teams being announced, Duke University incoming freshman Leaonna Odom was one of 12 players selected to the West Team that will take the court March 30 in the United Center in Chicago. The game is slated to tip at 6:30 p.m., on ESPNU.

Odom, who currently attends Chaminade College Prepatory School in West Hills, Calif., is averaging 20.8 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.9 blocks and 1.4 steals on the year. In 15 contests, she has tallied seven games of 20 or more points, including a season-high 31 against El Camino Real. The 6-0 standout has also notched seven double-doubles on the year.

Her Chaminade College Prepatory School has produced a 16-3 overall record on the season and is currently ranked No. 6 nationally.

With Odom’s selection, the Blue Devils have now brought in 26 different McDonald’s All-America honorees, including 14 under the direction of head coach Joanne P. McCallie.

[uh_no]

Signee Leaonna Odom Selected McDonald’s All-America

Courtesy: Duke Sports Information
Release: 01/18/2016

DURHAM, N.C. – With the 2016 McDonald’s All-America teams being announced, Duke University incoming freshman Leaonna Odom was one of 12 players selected to the West Team that will take the court March 30 in the United Center in Chicago. The game is slated to tip at 6:30 p.m., on ESPNU.

Odom, who currently attends Chaminade College Prepatory School in West Hills, Calif., is averaging 20.8 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.9 blocks and 1.4 steals on the year. In 15 contests, she has tallied seven games of 20 or more points, including a season-high 31 against El Camino Real. The 6-0 standout has also notched seven double-doubles on the year.

Her Chaminade College Prepatory School has produced a 16-3 overall record on the season and is currently ranked No. 6 nationally.

With Odom’s selection, the Blue Devils have now brought in 26 different McDonald’s All-America honorees, including 14 under the direction of head coach Joanne P. McCallie.

congratulations leaonna! that's a lot of vowels!

[aswewere]

Signee Leaonna Odom Selected McDonald’s All-America

Courtesy: Duke Sports Information
Release: 01/18/2016

DURHAM, N.C. – With the 2016 McDonald’s All-America teams being announced, Duke University incoming freshman Leaonna Odom was one of 12 players selected to the West Team that will take the court March 30 in the United Center in Chicago. The game is slated to tip at 6:30 p.m., on ESPNU.

Odom, who currently attends Chaminade College Prepatory School in West Hills, Calif., is averaging 20.8 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.9 blocks and 1.4 steals on the year. In 15 contests, she has tallied seven games of 20 or more points, including a season-high 31 against El Camino Real. The 6-0 standout has also notched seven double-doubles on the year.

Her Chaminade College Prepatory School has produced a 16-3 overall record on the season and is currently ranked No. 6 nationally.

With Odom’s selection, the Blue Devils have now brought in 26 different McDonald’s All-America honorees, including 14 under the direction of head coach Joanne P. McCallie.


Here is the rest of the roster, The 2017 class overall is rated stronger and we should sign 3 or 4 hope they are all Big Mack's.
http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/14577508/meet-2016-mcdonald-all-americans

[aswewere]

Greenwell & Stevens are rated in top 25 players in the nation and we have numerous other good players on our team. So how did this happen ??

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14596814/duke-blue-devils-fall-women-basketball-top-25

[Indoor66]

Greenwell & Stevens are rated in top 25 players in the nation and we have numerous other good players on our team. So how did this happen ??

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14596814/duke-blue-devils-fall-women-basketball-top-25

P L E A S E give it a rest.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Greenwell & Stevens are rated in top 25 players in the nation and we have numerous other good players on our team. So how did this happen ??

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14596814/duke-blue-devils-fall-women-basketball-top-25
I don't know if you watch the men. I would assume so.
Think about what you wrote when the rankings come out next week for the men, and our guys aren't in them. (I'll replace Stevens and Greenwell with Ingram and Allen.)
Does K need to go, too? By your reasoning, he can ride shotgun as she drives out of town.

[dudog84]

I don't know if you watch the men. I would assume so.
Think about what you wrote when the rankings come out next week for the men, and our guys aren't in them. (I'll replace Stevens and Greenwell with Ingram and Allen.)
Does K need to go, too? By your reasoning, he can ride shotgun as she drives out of town.

Beat me to it, I was thinking the same thing. Crap! Young teams are frustrating!

[aswewere]

I don't know if you watch the men. I would assume so.
Think about what you wrote when the rankings come out next week for the men, and our guys aren't in them. (I'll replace Stevens and Greenwell with Ingram and Allen.)
Does K need to go, too? By your reasoning, he can ride shotgun as she drives out of town.

Coach K does not have a eight year record of the things that have happened on the women's side on and off the court.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Coach K does not have a eight year record of the things that have happened on the women's side on and off the court.
Moot point (and thenkgawd he hasn't had ALL the injuries). The women didn't have their top 25 streak stretch from years of G end at the first year of McCallie or the 8th year of McCallie. Coach P has kept the women in the top 10, top 15, top 25 (pick your poison, we've been in all with both coaches) for every year she has coached. Until yesterday. And they will be back again. I'm not calling her the best ever; I'm not even saying I don't have concerns. But I've been pretty damn proud to be a fan of women's basketball with her guiding the ship. That also didn't end yesterday.

[aswewere]

Moot point (and thenkgawd he hasn't had ALL the injuries). The women didn't have their top 25 streak stretch from years of G end at the first year of McCallie or the 8th year of McCallie. Coach P has kept the women in the top 10, top 15, top 25 (pick your poison, we've been in all with both coaches) for every year she has coached. Until yesterday. And they will be back again. I'm not calling her the best ever; I'm not even saying I don't have concerns. But I've been pretty damn proud to be a fan of women's basketball with her guiding the ship. That also didn't end yesterday.

Its very embarrassing that you are even comparing coaching of our two programs.

[DukePA]

Its very embarrassing that you are even comparing coaching of our two programs.

I don't believe there is anything Coach P can do that her haters would be okay with. She could cure cancer and you guys would be angry that she didn't create world peace. "Duke Women's Basketball be damned; we have self-righteous-indignation and hatred to keep us warm at night." You guys have been gunning for her since day one; I'm just grateful those who were disillusioned with Coach K during his first few seasons weren't as rabid as the P haters. Feel free to ban me, moderators.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Its very embarrassing that you are even comparing coaching of our two programs.
Not for me, I'm not embarrassed one bit. I'm proud of both their records.

[dudog84]

Coach K does not have a eight year record of the things that have happened on the women's side on and off the court.

Please enlighten me as to all of the terrible things Coach P has done off the court. I don't live in NC anymore and honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

[uh_no]

Please enlighten me as to all of the terrible things Coach P has done off the court. I don't live in NC anymore and honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

there was an incident with diamond deshields, I believe...didn't shake hands with her in the post-game line...extremely immature

she says some interesting things in pressers...including saying her players should walk home from games..and given her general lack of taking responsibility when things go wrong, this takes a far more "throwing the team under the bus" tone rather than a "haha joke" kind of tone. One instance i particularly recall was her saying one game "i'm not looking for positive" and then criticizing her team the next game for getting down all the time when mistakes get made. Also generally refuses to give opponents the respect of being named, only calling them by number....make what you will

there have been some questionable tweets which when viewed in certain lights are very unbecoming of a duke coach. i think some related to the above mentioned hand shake incident, some related to a coach leaving...something to do with her husband too...i don't remember the details...just remember thinking "huh?"

if you trust the intel of some parties, there have also been some issues within the team that have not been generally disclosed to the public

so people take all sorts of different things from all these occurrences....some of them bother me, some of them don't. but in either case, they're the things you'd rather not have to think about.

[killerleft]

there was an incident with diamond deshields, I believe...didn't shake hands with her in the post-game line...extremely immature

she says some interesting things in pressers...including saying her players should walk home from games..and given her general lack of taking responsibility when things go wrong, this takes a far more "throwing the team under the bus" tone rather than a "haha joke" kind of tone. One instance i particularly recall was her saying one game "i'm not looking for positive" and then criticizing her team the next game for getting down all the time when mistakes get made. Also generally refuses to give opponents the respect of being named, only calling them by number...make what you will

there have been some questionable tweets which when viewed in certain lights are very unbecoming of a duke coach. i think some related to the above mentioned hand shake incident, some related to a coach leaving...something to do with her husband too...i don't remember the details...just remember thinking "huh?"

if you trust the intel of some parties, there have also been some issues within the team that have not been generally disclosed to the public

so people take all sorts of different things from all these occurrences...some of them bother me, some of them don't. but in either case, they're the things you'd rather not have to think about.

Delina DeSheilds, the walking, abrasive insult machine? I've seen Coach K miss a few handshakes and/or give a cold shoulder to opposing coaches and players. Is he immature? I'm sure he regrets some things, we all have regrets and aren't perfect. Maybe it's 'temporary immaturity'? Re: DeSheilds, I was so happy when she decided to leave. Given her combination of talent and personality, it was like a dream come true for me, and probably, Coach P as well.

Can't get into the tweets, other than to say it's pretty hard to say what you mean in a few words, and easy to be taken out of context.

I hope that many issues within the team are staying where they should... I imagine the no-nonsense McCallie can blister some paint, just like our men's coach is known to do. From what I can see, there seems to be pretty good togetherness among the team and coaches.

[aswewere]

Delina DeSheilds, the walking, abrasive insult machine? I've seen Coach K miss a few handshakes and/or give a cold shoulder to opposing coaches and players. Is he immature? I'm sure he regrets some things, we all have regrets and aren't perfect. Maybe it's 'temporary immaturity'? Re: DeSheilds, I was so happy when she decided to leave. Given her combination of talent and personality, it was like a dream come true for me, and probably, Coach P as well.

Can't get into the tweets, other than to say it's pretty hard to say what you mean in a few words, and easy to be taken out of context.

I hope that many issues within the team are staying where they should... I imagine the no-nonsense McCallie can blister some paint, just like our men's coach is known to do. From what I can see, there seems to be pretty good togetherness among the team and coaches.

Agree with you about Diamond and tweets have never been any deal breaker. With me its all about winning the only hate involved is losing. One quick way
to rally our fan base would be an announcement that our offense was going to get a complete overhaul that will allow us compete against the very best. This
would start the healing process and be long overdue for our team as well.

[Kedsy]

I started this thread to track how the WBB TEAM is doing. Sometimes record isn't everything and there seems to have been a drop-off in WBB coverage in general over the last four or so years. In any case, I've not had an opportunity to see them this season and wanted more info than scoreboard can give.

SO PLEASE CAN WE GET OFF THE REFERENDUM on the head coach?

Yes, that would be preferable, wouldn't it.

The women are having a season that isn't all that different from the men, even to the extent of starting in the Top 10 but recently dropping out of the Top 25 (which the men seem to be in danger of doing this week). We have a *very* young team (nine (9) freshmen/sophomores). Azurá Stevens could be described as the women's version of Brandon Ingram -- a 6'6 guard playing PF, All-American candidate, who can do a little bit of everything but is skinny so she gets pushed around on occasion. Kyra Lambert reminds me of Derryck Thornton -- a small PG who doesn't get so many assists and is very quick but not always productive with that quickness. Amber Henson is sort of like Marshall Plumlee -- fifth year senior who will never be a superstar but in some games can really bring it. Rebecca Greenwell is more Luke Kennard than Matt Jones; Oderah Chidom is probably not all that different from last year's Amile Jefferson. The women don't really have an analog for Grayson Allen, and the men don't really have one for Angela Salvadores, but they're both potentially big scorers with handle. Lynee' Belton and Erin Matthias are reserve bigs who are probably doing a little better than Chase Jeter and Sean Obi.

Coach P plays a longer rotation than Coach K, so the women also have a defensive specialist with potential to be more (Crystal Primm) and a tall guard who is coming along slowly but surely (Faith Suggs), plus another senior who doesn't play much but has started a game (Mercedes Riggs). In fact, Duke women have had 13 players start at least one game.

The injury bug has hit the women as well as the men. Haley Gorecki (injury) and Kendall Cooper (academics) are out for the season plus so far we've missed multiple games (either from injury or other reasons) from Lynee' Belton, Angela Salvadores, and Amber Henson.

Like the men, the women are lacking an effective PG, though both Kyra and Angela should get there eventually. Unlike the men, in my mind, the biggest issue the women have is a lack of outside shooting. At the moment, our only reliable outside threat is Rebecca. Kyra, Angela, and even Azurá are starting to show signs of life from three-land, but right now if an opponent can shut Rebecca down, our offense is at a major disadvantage. When she scores in single-figures, we lose more than we win.

Our last game (against BC), we were basically down to 8 players, but I thought we looked better than we have in awhile (we won the game by 20).

Ultimately, again like the men, if the women get healthy and if the light bulb goes on for one or two of the freshmen, the team will be a tough out in the Tournament. The ACC is a very tough league, though, so there might be a few more bumps in store along the way.

Is that the sort of thing you had in mind?

[DukieInKansas]

It appears that some have issues with the type of offense that is coached - and has been coached since Coach P's first season. It seems to me that the recruits have to be aware of how Coach works/runs the offense/defense and must not have much problem with it or they would agree to come to Duke and play. It doesn't seem like all the wishing and posting in the world will change how she runs things so continuing to post on it seems to be a waste of energy. I would suggest those that have problems with the coach make their feelings known to Dr. White, as some have said they have, and let it go. Beating a dead horse here will not change things. (Perhaps a large donation to the Iron Dukes will give your word more weight but I don't know if any of the PowerBall winners are Duke Women's BBall fans. :D )


Do I want whatever team I support to win every single game? You bet I do. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen. All I can do is continue to cheer for them as hard as I can and hope that the next game is a win.

Let's go, Duke!


And a few 9F 9F 9F's for good measure.

[bluedevilsince72]

Recruits know very little. They can be convinced of anything by coaches. Look at John Calipari hyping the "dribble drive" as soon as he started at Kentucky. Cal has run the dribble drive for may 10% of his time there. Kids (and parents) have so little knowledge of what they are getting into.

[uh_no]

Recruits know very little. They can be convinced of anything by coaches. Look at John Calipari hyping the "dribble drive" as soon as he started at Kentucky. Cal has run the dribble drive for may 10% of his time there. Kids (and parents) have so little knowledge of what they are getting into.

that's alright, i'll pioneer the "dribble drive shoot" offense....as good as calipari's, but in this offense, you get to shoot too!

https://xkcd.com/670/

[burnspbesq]

Last year, this thread made it into February before the pathology on display rendered it useless.

This year, it doesn't look like it's going to make it through January.

Mods ...

[DukieInKansas]

Recruits know very little. They can be convinced of anything by coaches. Look at John Calipari hyping the "dribble drive" as soon as he started at Kentucky. Cal has run the dribble drive for may 10% of his time there. Kids (and parents) have so little knowledge of what they are getting into.

Recruits don't watch the teams that are recruiting them play?

[Bob Green]

From the posting guidelines:


Incivility. You are free to disagree with other posters; all we ask that you respectfully disagree. Challenge the content of the post: point out flaws in their logic, dispute facts, or counter the argument respectfully. Attacking the poster by being snarky, name-calling, or engaging in a flame war is not tolerated. Avoid "gotcha" posts.

And let's leave the moderating to the moderators. Thanks!

[Des Esseintes]

Recruits know very little. They can be convinced of anything by coaches. Look at John Calipari hyping the "dribble drive" as soon as he started at Kentucky. Cal has run the dribble drive for may 10% of his time there. Kids (and parents) have so little knowledge of what they are getting into.
I think recruits can see that Kentucky wins a ton of games and puts lots of guys into the NBA each year. I hate UK, but what would be stupid about going there? What would be stupid about encouraging your kid to go there?

[bluedevilsince72]

Of course, you would go encourage your kid to go to UK if they were recruiting him/her. My point was in regards to DWB, their recruiting, and how P keeps getting top classes. Kids have no idea we have a huge slow down slogging offense. My point was that kids have very little knowledge of what is actually going on.

[Kfanarmy]

Yes, that would be preferable, wouldn't it.

The women are having a season that isn't all that different from the men, even to the extent of starting in the Top 10 but recently dropping out of the Top 25 (which the men seem to be in danger of doing this week). We have a *very* young team (nine (9) freshmen/sophomores). Azurá Stevens could be described as the women's version of Brandon Ingram -- a 6'6 guard playing PF, All-American candidate, who can do a little bit of everything but is skinny so she gets pushed around on occasion. Kyra Lambert reminds me of Derryck Thornton -- a small PG who doesn't get so many assists and is very quick but not always productive with that quickness. Amber Henson is sort of like Marshall Plumlee -- fifth year senior who will never be a superstar but in some games can really bring it. Rebecca Greenwell is more Luke Kennard than Matt Jones; Oderah Chidom is probably not all that different from last year's Amile Jefferson. The women don't really have an analog for Grayson Allen, and the men don't really have one for Angela Salvadores, but they're both potentially big scorers with handle. Lynee' Belton and Erin Matthias are reserve bigs who are probably doing a little better than Chase Jeter and Sean Obi.

Coach P plays a longer rotation than Coach K, so the women also have a defensive specialist with potential to be more (Crystal Primm) and a tall guard who is coming along slowly but surely (Faith Suggs), plus another senior who doesn't play much but has started a game (Mercedes Riggs). In fact, Duke women have had 13 players start at least one game.

The injury bug has hit the women as well as the men. Haley Gorecki (injury) and Kendall Cooper (academics) are out for the season plus so far we've missed multiple games (either from injury or other reasons) from Lynee' Belton, Angela Salvadores, and Amber Henson.

Like the men, the women are lacking an effective PG, though both Kyra and Angela should get there eventually. Unlike the men, in my mind, the biggest issue the women have is a lack of outside shooting. At the moment, our only reliable outside threat is Rebecca. Kyra, Angela, and even Azurá are starting to show signs of life from three-land, but right now if an opponent can shut Rebecca down, our offense is at a major disadvantage. When she scores in single-figures, we lose more than we win.

Our last game (against BC), we were basically down to 8 players, but I thought we looked better than we have in awhile (we won the game by 20).

Ultimately, again like the men, if the women get healthy and if the light bulb goes on for one or two of the freshmen, the team will be a tough out in the Tournament. The ACC is a very tough league, though, so there might be a few more bumps in store along the way.

Is that the sort of thing you had in mind?

Exactly...Thank you. Both DBB teams are likely to be out of the top 25 come next Monday. The WBB record is a bit too similar to MBB, except when they lose, they tend to lose big. Though that seems to be more the case in WBB in general. Duke WBB stats look pretty solid everywhere except turnovers and opponent steals. From what you've seen, what is driving the turnovers -- Obviously you'd expect more TOs from a team of underclassmen than 5 seniors --Is it lack of familiarity with each other, something about the offense, poor ball handling or a bit of everything?

Here's hoping the 6 in the L column doesn't change until later in March.

[Kedsy]

Exactly...Thank you. Both DBB teams are likely to be out of the top 25 come next Monday. The WBB record is a bit too similar to MBB, except when they lose, they tend to lose big. Though that seems to be more the case in WBB in general. Duke WBB stats look pretty solid everywhere except turnovers and opponent steals. From what you've seen, what is driving the turnovers -- Obviously you'd expect more TOs from a team of underclassmen than 5 seniors --Is it lack of familiarity with each other, something about the offense, poor ball handling or a bit of everything?

Here's hoping the 6 in the L column doesn't change until later in March.

The turnovers have come (basically) in two flavors. Against pressing teams, like Syracuse and Louisville, Duke seemed entirely unable to move the ball and had the kind of turnovers you often see against havoc defenses. I would chalk that up to a lack of experience -- I got the impression watching those games that Duke's ballhandlers were at first not mentally prepared for the sheer physicality of such pressure (that sort of thing is really hard to reproduce in practice), and then later just became flustered.

In other games, I would say that an inordinate number of turnovers have been traveling and offensive fouls/moving screens. These are often committed by bigs, although Angela seems once or twice a game to get called for a travel that I assume wasn't called in international play.

Some stats to back up the above:

FRESHMEN (inexperienced) TOs per 40:
------------------------------------
Angela: 5.5
Haley: 4.4
Crystal: 3.8
Faith: 2.9
Kyra: 2.8 (but 5 TOs against Syracuse)

BIGS TOs per 40:
----------------
Lynee': 5.8
Oderah: 4.2
Azurá: 3.9
Erin: 3.9
Amber: 3.3
Kendall: 2.1

NON-BIG, NON-FROSH TOs per 40:
--------------------------------
Rebecca: 2.8
Mercedes: 0.7

For comparison's sake, here are some TOs per 40 numbers for the men's team (although not strictly comparable, because I believe turnovers are higher in general in women's basketball than in men's for some reason):

FRESHMEN
----------
Derryck: 2.7 (similar to Kyra)
Brandon: 2.0
Luke: 1.4

BIGS
-----
Chase: 4.4 (also a freshman, so there's a double-whammy)
Amile: 2.2
Marshall: 1.6

So, overall, obviously turnovers are an issue for the women's team. But it's not really related to poor offense in general as much as it is related to Angela getting used to the American college game and for our bigs to stop taking steps and moving on screens. Well, I'll amend that to say that we also looked really awful against full court pressure.

[aswewere]

Duke at Clemson DWHOOPS preview http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601210-preview-duke-at-clemson.php

[DukePA]

Of course, you would go encourage your kid to go to UK if they were recruiting him/her. My point was in regards to DWB, their recruiting, and how P keeps getting top classes. Kids have no idea we have a huge slow down slogging offense. My point was that kids have very little knowledge of what is actually going on.

I cannot imagine a recruit wouldn't watch Duke basketball at home or on a visit. How can they not know Duke's style of play? This makes no sense.

[bluedevilsince72]

Exactly, it makes no sense. Why do we keep getting top recruits to play in our slow paced offense? Of course they watch DWB games but the kid and the parents really don't know whats going on. They believe what they are told, not so much what they watch. They are just so happy to be recruited by Duke that they really don't watch that closely. How else can you explain how DWB is getting all these high ranked classes? If they knew what they were watching, why would they want to play in this slow paced offense? Why would they come to a program which has not been able to compete at all with the top teams for the past 6 years?

[CameronBornAndBred]

The women walloped Clemson 72-43 last night to pull even in ACC play. The Lady Heels lost to the same Wake team (75-63) that Duke just beat up, so the silver lining in our season is that the season is even worse for the sheep. Deservedly so, since all the top scorers smartly left town before sanctions hit.

[Indoor66]

Women's basketball doesn't have the same post college payday that the men's game offers. Only a relative few ever make anything beyond a short term living playing the game. I imagine that the Duke degree is a bigger influence in their decision process.

[sagegrouse]

Women's basketball doesn't have the same post college payday that the men's game offers. Only a relative few ever make anything beyond a short term living playing the game. I imagine that the Duke degree is a bigger influence in their decision process.

As it should be -- I was about to post the same thing.

Even UConn's Geno Auriemma conceded the advantage to Duke about ten years ago, although in the most backhanded way possible:


"You know, there are just as many Duke graduates waiting on tables as there is from any other school in the country. They may just be working at a better restaurant."

This was #3 on the list of top ten Geno quotes (http://blogs.courant.com/uconn_womens_basketball/2009/11/uconn-moments-top-10-auriemma.html).

[Kfanarmy]

The turnovers have come (basically) in two flavors. Against pressing teams, like Syracuse and Louisville, Duke seemed entirely unable to move the ball and had the kind of turnovers you often see against havoc defenses. I would chalk that up to a lack of experience -- I got the impression watching those games that Duke's ballhandlers were at first not mentally prepared for the sheer physicality of such pressure (that sort of thing is really hard to reproduce in practice), and then later just became flustered......


So, overall, obviously turnovers are an issue for the women's team. But it's not really related to poor offense in general as much as it is related to Angela getting used to the American college game and for our bigs to stop taking steps and moving on screens. Well, I'll amend that to say that we also looked really awful against full court pressure.
Thanks once again.

I appreciate the background data, linked to your observations. I'm guessing those are all noticeable when watching the game. The fix for two of those is really about player growth, the other -- facing a tough pressure team -- requires preparation by the staff and execution by the players. Starting with a high volume of turnovers then adding pressure really spiked the numbers against Syracuse.

Are they, are they not progressing relative to their competition's growth?

[DukieInKansas]

Exactly, it makes no sense. Why do we keep getting top recruits to play in our slow paced offense? Of course they watch DWB games but the kid and the parents really don't know whats going on. They believe what they are told, not so much what they watch. They are just so happy to be recruited by Duke that they really don't watch that closely. How else can you explain how DWB is getting all these high ranked classes? If they knew what they were watching, why would they want to play in this slow paced offense? Why would they come to a program which has not been able to compete at all with the top teams for the past 6 years?

I have a hard time believing that top recruits have so little basketball knowledge that they don't know what they are watching. Our bball players are smart women. I would assume they know something about the program that we don't.

If you were being sarcastic or posting tongue in cheek, please ignore my comment.

[killerleft]

Of course, you would go encourage your kid to go to UK if they were recruiting him/her. My point was in regards to DWB, their recruiting, and how P keeps getting top classes. Kids have no idea we have a huge slow down slogging offense. My point was that kids have very little knowledge of what is actually going on.

I like your optimism and the way we can read between the lines and deduce that you find our women to be, in general, both ignorant and, shall we say, not too choosy!

I disagree. Duke should be a prime destination for women to come and play basketball and get a fine education.

[Kedsy]

Thanks once again.

I appreciate the background data, linked to your observations. I'm guessing those are all noticeable when watching the game. The fix for two of those is really about player growth, the other -- facing a tough pressure team -- requires preparation by the staff and execution by the players. Starting with a high volume of turnovers then adding pressure really spiked the numbers against Syracuse.

Are they, are they not progressing relative to their competition's growth?

The team has looked pretty good the past two games, albeit against bottom tier ACC teams. Interestingly, both games were played without Angela Salvadores, who is injured. From a turnover standpoint, we had 19, about average for the team if you don't count the Syracuse game. Once again, a large percentage of the TOs seemed to be offensive fouls and traveling.

One area where we possibly took a step forward on offense was three-point shooting. Coming into the Clemson game, Rebecca Greenwell was 42-114 from three (37.2%) while the rest of the team was 47-160 (29.4%), and thus Rebecca had an amazing 47.2% of our three-point makes for the year. As I said in an earlier post, that distribution made it too easy to shut down Duke's outside scoring if you could defend Rebecca. Well, for much of the game, Clemson did shut down Rebecca -- she ended up 2 for 6 from three with 12 points overall -- but the rest of the team shot 5 for 10 from distance, led by Azurá's 3 for 4. If that can continue, it's a great advancement for the team.

[DU82]

The team has looked pretty good the past two games, albeit against bottom tier ACC teams. Interestingly, both games were played without Angela Salvadores, who is injured. From a turnover standpoint, we had 19, about average for the team if you don't count the Syracuse game. Once again, a large percentage of the TOs seemed to be offensive fouls and traveling.

One area where we possibly took a step forward on offense was three-point shooting. Coming into the Clemson game, Rebecca Greenwell was 42-114 from three (37.2%) while the rest of the team was 47-160 (29.4%), and thus Rebecca had an amazing 47.2% of our three-point makes for the year. As I said in an earlier post, that distribution made it too easy to shut down Duke's outside scoring if you could defend Rebecca. Well, for much of the game, Clemson did shut down Rebecca -- she ended up 2 for 6 from three with 12 points overall -- but the rest of the team shot 5 for 10 from distance, led by Azurá's 3 for 4. If that can continue, it's a great advancement for the team.

Playing with two other "bigs" (Amber, Oderah, Erin or Lynee) allows Azura to play more of a shooting forward role, freeing her up from outside. Her height allows her to get off shots others wouldn't try. We saw that the past two games. I don't know how this would work against a decent three-point shooting team, but we tend to concentrate on inside defense anyway. (Before last night, I believe Clemson had hit about 5 threes in ACC play. They did hit 3 last night, two by a former walkon 3-point specialist, with one at the first half buzzer, and the third was at the end of the game buzzer.) Kyra has a nice shot, and overall Angela is perhaps our best three-point threat (both from behind the arc and by driving in for the and-one.)

[bluedevilsince72]

I like your optimism and the way we can read between the lines and deduce that you find our women to be, in general, both ignorant and, shall we say, not too choosy!

I disagree. Duke should be a prime destination for women to come and play basketball and get a fine education.

I think the men's recruits/players (at all schools) are just as ill informed, not just the women.

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Duke / Clemson Write up http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601211-duke-72-clemson-43.php

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Previewing uNC at Duke Sunday http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601221-preview-unc-at-duke.php

[Indoor66]

DWHOOPS Previewing unCheat at Duke Sunday http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601221-preview-unc-at-duke.php

I fixed that for you.

[aswewere]

I fixed that for you.




Thanks U the ONE

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS Duke / Clemson Write up http://www.dwhoops.com/1516/1601211-duke-72-clemson-43.php

Both Duke and UNC are unranked in a matchup between the two schools first time since 1992

[aswewere]

With TOs being a big problem we need to work on our spacing going inside with several players and defenders together its a mess. Just like to see us once again run a motion
offense that is smooth like we use to have and it did not cost Duke about a million to coach it. The tractor offense will work if you have the big edge in talent.

[OldPhiKap]

With TOs being a big problem we need to work on our spacing going inside with several players and defenders together its a mess. Just like to see us once again run a motion
offense that is smooth like we use to have and it did not cost Duke about a million to coach it. The tractor offense will work if you have the big edge in talent.

I don't have a position on our coach, but we just beat Carolina by 16. Is this really the time?

[aswewere]

I don't have a position on our coach, but we just beat Carolina by 16. Is this really the time?

What direction do you see from game to game or year to year. What that saying silence is consent.

[OldPhiKap]

What direction do you see from game to game or year to year. What that saying silence is consent.

Don't fret, I think you have made your opinion known. That doesn't mean that we need to replow that same ground right after a sixteen point win over our mortal rival.

If you cannot enjoy that win, why watch the games at all? Every game is not a referendum on the coach, and again this seems an odd time to throw cold water on the team. No?

[DukePA]

Don't fret, I think you have made your opinion known. That doesn't mean that we need to replow that same ground right after a sixteen point win over our mortal rival.

If you cannot enjoy that win, why watch the games at all? Every game is not a referendum on the coach, and again this seems an odd time to throw cold water on the team. No?

If yesterday's decisive win over the heels doesn't make some of you happy, nothing will. I am very proud of the team and proud of the coaching job. GO DUKE!!!

[aswewere]

If yesterday's decisive win over the heels doesn't make some of you happy, nothing will. I am very proud of the team and proud of the coaching job. GO DUKE!!!


This form is our team 2016 form and I am very concerned and sick of what has happened to our once elite program. You will find the uNc game postings elsewhere
to express your satisfaction with our situation.

[DukePA]

This form is our team 2016 form and I am very concerned and sick of what has happened to our once elite program. You will find the uNc game postings elsewhere
to express your satisfaction with our situation.


Forgive me. I didn't realize we weren't allowed to comment on yesterday's game in this thread. Bash on, sir. Bash on.

[Kfanarmy]

This form is our team 2016 form and I am very concerned and sick of what has happened to our once elite program. You will find the uNc game postings elsewhere
to express your satisfaction with our situation.

Seriously?

[OldPhiKap]

This form is our team 2016 form and I am very concerned and sick of what has happened to our once elite program. You will find the uNc game postings elsewhere
to express your satisfaction with our situation.

True. The way a team performs in January is wholly determinative of how they play in March. And of course we should ignore the fact that we just beat uNC by sixteen because, well, that good performance doesn't fit the "form" that is otherwise obvious to the discerning. Pleasure is fleeting, abandon all hope Ye who enter here.

In short, I wholly agree, Y'all take your enjoyment of beating a rival and your optimism from such a win, and take it elsewhere. That has no place here. Suck a lemon and come back when you are ready for a big dose of truth.

Not even sure we should finish the season at this point. Good thing the men are above struggling.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Congrats to Azura for being named National Player of the Week by the USBWA.

Stevens, a 6-6 forward/guard who hails from Raleigh, N.C., averaged 29.5 points, 10.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 2.0 blocks and 1.0 steals in the pair of ACC contests while going a perfect 11-for-11 at the free throw line.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210665639&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[NSDukeFan]

True. The way a team performs in January is wholly determinative of how they play in March. And of course we should ignore the fact that we just beat uNC by sixteen because, well, that good performance doesn't fit the "form" that is otherwise obvious to the discerning. Pleasure is fleeting, abandon all hope Ye who enter here.

In short, I wholly agree, Y'all take your enjoyment of beating a rival and your optimism from such a win, and take it elsewhere. That has no place here. Suck a lemon and come back when you are ready for a big dose of truth.

Not even sure we should finish the season at this point. Good thing the men are above struggling.

Should this be renamed the pessimist thread?

[DukieInKansas]

Should this be renamed the pessimist thread?

Perhaps, the sarcasm thread would be better. :-D

[OldPhiKap]

Congrats to Azura for being named National Player of the Week by the USBWA.


http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210665639&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Congrats, way to go!

[sagegrouse]

This form is our team 2016 form and I am very concerned and sick of what has happened to our once elite program. You will find the uNc game postings elsewhere
to express your satisfaction with our situation.

Aswewere, in addition to repeating the same tired theme over and over, you inform us that this thread is reserved only for those who want to parrot your remarks. Those who have other views are directed to another thread. Isn't this an outrageous statement for a humble poster?

[OldPhiKap]

Aswewere, in addition to repeating the same tired theme over and over, you inform us that this thread is reserved only for those who want to parrot your remarks. Those who have other views are directed to another thread. Isn't this an outrageous statement for a humble poster?

Not to worry. Even though we have won our last three games -- 20 point victory over BC, 29 point victory over Clemson, 16 point victory over the Heels -- and scored at least 70 points in all three of those games, I am sure that Pitt will destroy us tomorrow like the tractor-running offense we are. Then we will be treated to more epistles about our impending demise.

(And again, I do not have an opinion on our coach. I do grow tired of a constant harangue about it after every game though, particularly during the season and when recruits are likely to be seeing what Duke fans are like as they consider their options. And especially during a win streak, for crying out loud. It seems wholly and utterly counterproductive to me. But as Sage himself often points out, that's why the "H" is silent for me when I say these things IM{H}O).

[aswewere]

Even though we have won our last three games -- 20 point victory over BC, 29 point victory over Clemson, 16 point victory over the Heels. Congratulations with all the highly recruited players
and big Macs they have it was trophy case ride. Cant wait till we show ND our new plays to get Greenwell and other players a few open shots.

[Kfanarmy]

Good to get on a winning streak, expecting it to be at four shortly...hopefully building confidence and Big Mo as they head toward a very difficult task on the 1 Feb against ND. Staying right on that 19 TOs/game though. Really wish they could cut that down by a handful.

[dudog84]

You think this is bad, I've stopped going to a certain other board but just for yuks (or should I say yucks) decided to check out the uNC game thread Sunday night. Though I don't think we were behind for more than 2 minutes in that game, about 90% of the posts were negative.

I take comfort in knowing this is a very small though vocal minority of "fans". And take some joy in that their hair will continue to burn since Coach P will not be fired despite their entreaties to Kevin White. I imagine a certain poster here is a regular on that site.

[aswewere]

DWHOOPS preview Duke at Pitt. http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601271-preview-duke-at-pitt.php


Posted by a Duke fan since 1947 and a season women's ticket holder since 1999. My best thoughts are always
seeing our teams succeed and as old as I am believe it or not trends that go over a few years are not hard to see.

[dudog84]

DWHOOPS preview Duke at Pitt. http://www.dwhoops.com/Duke/1601271-preview-duke-at-pitt.php


Posted by a Duke fan since 1947 and a season women's ticket holder since 1999. My best thoughts are always
seeing our teams succeed and as old as I am believe it or not trends that go over a few years are not hard to see.

Ok, here’s a trend for you. In each of the past 4 years Coach P has lost 2 of the team’s top 5 players (by recruiting ranking). This year, she’s lost Kendall Cooper (#12 ESPN) and Hayley Gorecki for the year, and Amber Henson (#20, top 10 by every other recruiting service), Angela Salvadores (#5), and Lynee Belton (#10) have missed numerous games.

Just look at how the greatest coach of all time, possibly in any sport, has been doing after losing one player. These things don’t happen in a vacuum. With only 5 participants at a time, continuity and chemistry are probably more important to basketball than any other team sport.

I honestly don’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend? Exactly what do you expect/want?

[aswewere]

Ok, here’s a trend for you. In each of the past 4 years Coach P has lost 2 of the team’s top 5 players (by recruiting ranking). This year, she’s lost Kendall Cooper (#12 ESPN) and Hayley Gorecki for the year, and Amber Henson (#20, top 10 by every other recruiting service), Angela Salvadores (#5), and Lynee Belton (#10) have missed numerous games.

Just look at how the greatest coach of all time, possibly in any sport, has been doing after losing one player. These things don’t happen in a vacuum. With only 5 participants at a time, continuity and chemistry are probably more important to basketball than any other team sport.

I honestly don’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend? Exactly what do you expect/want?

I expect after years against the better teams running her tractor offense where they are able to shut down our best shooters to have installed a motion or
other advanced system. It would be nice for once for her to take some accountability after all she is the head coach. Not to mention Joy one of my favorite
players / coaches the way that came down, plus others. Yes I see a trend, if nothing else junk the 1990s systems we have shown numerous times they are
outdated, like me.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ok, here’s a trend for you. In each of the past 4 years Coach P has lost 2 of the team’s top 5 players (by recruiting ranking). This year, she’s lost Kendall Cooper (#12 ESPN) and Hayley Gorecki for the year, and Amber Henson (#20, top 10 by every other recruiting service), Angela Salvadores (#5), and Lynee Belton (#10) have missed numerous games.

This is another reason that McCallie has to go. She's obviously bad for the health of the team. Quite possibly, she intentionally runs them so hard in practice until their bodies break. She may even have a stash of voodoo dolls at home that she plays with at night. "Hi Hayley, you're looking lovely this evening. Poke poke poke."
With a new coach, our players will be able to play a full four years without injury, and we'll finally win the big banner.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Kyra Lambert gets plenty of praise from Coach P...


“Kyra every game gets a little bit better, a little bit more understanding of the game—playing it inside-out, finding Azurá [Stevens], finding her post players, quicker passes to Becca [Greenwell],” Duke head coach Joanne P. McCallie said. “Everything is clicking for her and I think it will continue to do so, so I’m excited about Kyra’s play.”
“Defensively, she’s really capable of a lot of deflections and steals and also great position defense. One-on-one stops are huge in any defense that we play,” McCallie said. “Kyra’s one of those stoppers. She’s a defensive stopper, so I’m encouraging her to really understand who she’s playing against—how to play that one person [and] get those stops.”

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/01/duke-womens-basketball-looks-for-fourth-straight-win-at-pittsburgh

[Kedsy]

Ok, here’s a trend for you. In each of the past 4 years Coach P has lost 2 of the team’s top 5 players (by recruiting ranking). This year, she’s lost Kendall Cooper (#12 ESPN) and Hayley Gorecki for the year, and Amber Henson (#20, top 10 by every other recruiting service), Angela Salvadores (#5), and Lynee Belton (#10) have missed numerous games.

Just look at how the greatest coach of all time, possibly in any sport, has been doing after losing one player. These things don’t happen in a vacuum. With only 5 participants at a time, continuity and chemistry are probably more important to basketball than any other team sport.

I honestly don’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend? Exactly what do you expect/want?

It has actually been much worse than you describe. People wonder how the team can lose games with such great recruiting classes, but here are the top-100 players (using ESPN rankings) that could have been on the roster but weren't (for at least multiple games) in the last five seasons (including this one):

2011-12:
SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Richa Jackson (#6, 2010)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES
- Shea Selby (#13, 2008 -- 5 games)
- Elizabeth Williams (#2, 2011; didn't actually miss any games but played the last month of the season, including post-season, with limited effectiveness due to a fracture in her leg/foot)

2012-13:
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Chelsea Gray (#4, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES
- Richa Jackson (#6, 2010 -- 9 games)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010 -- 5 games)

2013-14:
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Rebecca Greenwell (#6, 2013)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Chelsea Gray (#4, 2010)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Haley Peters (#19, 2010 -- 4 games)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011 -- 8 games)

2014-15
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Lynee' Belton (#9, 2014)
- Oderah Chidom (#10, 2013)
- Sierra Calhoun (#15, 2014)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Elizabeth Williams (#2, 2011 -- 2 games; Duke lost both games, and her first game back, with EW at more or less half speed, we lost by 1 to the #1 team in the country)

2015-16
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Sierra Calhoun (#15, 2014)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Kendall Cooper (#12, 2013)
- Haley Gorecki (#52, 2015)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Angela Salvadores (#5, 2015 - 3 games and counting; plus wasn't able to play full speed for the first several games of the season)
- Lynee' Belton (#9, 2014 - 5 games)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011 - 12 games)


Yes, the list above includes transfers, but it's still pretty horrifying to see it all toted up like that, isn't it? For those who keep asking how we could lose games after such great recruiting classes, here's your answer.

[aswewere]

It has actually been much worse than you describe. People wonder how the team can lose games with such great recruiting classes, but here are the top-100 players (using ESPN rankings) that could have been on the roster but weren't (for at least multiple games) in the last five seasons (including this one):

2011-12:
SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Richa Jackson (#6, 2010)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES
- Shea Selby (#13, 2008 -- 5 games)
- Elizabeth Williams (#2, 2011; didn't actually miss any games but played the last month of the season, including post-season, with limited effectiveness due to a fracture in her leg/foot)

2012-13:
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Chelsea Gray (#4, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES
- Richa Jackson (#6, 2010 -- 9 games)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010 -- 5 games)

2013-14:
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Rebecca Greenwell (#6, 2013)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Chelsea Gray (#4, 2010)
- Chloe Wells (#62, 2010)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Haley Peters (#19, 2010 -- 4 games)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011 -- 8 games)

2014-15
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Lynee' Belton (#9, 2014)
- Oderah Chidom (#10, 2013)
- Sierra Calhoun (#15, 2014)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Elizabeth Williams (#2, 2011 -- 2 games; Duke lost both games, and her first game back, with EW at more or less half speed, we lost by 1 to the #1 team in the country)

2015-16
DIDN'T PLAY AT ALL:
- Alexis Jones (#3, 2012)
- Sierra Calhoun (#15, 2014)
- Kianna Holland (#32, 2013)
- Sierra Moore (#49, 2012)
- Katie Heckman (#80, 2012)

SEASON ENDING LOSSES:
- Kendall Cooper (#12, 2013)
- Haley Gorecki (#52, 2015)

MULTIPLE GAME LOSSES:
- Angela Salvadores (#5, 2015 - 3 games and counting; plus wasn't able to play full speed for the first several games of the season)
- Lynee' Belton (#9, 2014 - 5 games)
- Amber Henson (#20, 2011 - 12 games)


Yes, the list above includes transfers, but it's still pretty horrifying to see it all toted up like that, isn't it? For those who keep asking how we could lose games after such great recruiting classes, here's your answer.


All of the above is more reasons to get rid of the out dated systems she runs. Stop hiring carbon copies of what she does in assistants. Realize that some time game adjustments by the
coach can make a difference. Stop throwing players under the bus, unless you have given them the training and motivation to be successful. Show a little humility we all can and will do
better. Take a tip from coach K evaluate your program annually see what works and fits with your personal. It all started the first year when she forced her tractor offense on players
that were recruited for a motion. Its time for so many of our fans to stop saying our game is just unwatchable.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Its time for so many of our fans to stop saying our game is just unwatchable.
AHA!!! Something we agree on!!!

[Kedsy]

All of the above is more reasons to...

I honestly don't understand. How is such a terribly long list of injury and misfortune "more reasons to" do anything, except possibly weep and/or wail and/or gnash one's teeth?

[OldPhiKap]

All of the above is more reasons to get rid of the out dated systems she runs. Stop hiring carbon copies of what she does in assistants. Realize that some time game adjustments by the
coach can make a difference. Stop throwing players under the bus, unless you have given them the training and motivation to be successful. Show a little humility we all can and will do
better. Take a tip from coach K evaluate your program annually see what works and fits with your personal. It all started the first year when she forced her tractor offense on players
that were recruited for a motion. Its time for so many of our fans to stop saying our game is just unwatchable.

Is this a parody post? Because if not, I'm wholly lost.

[DukieInKansas]

Is this a parody post? Because if not, I'm wholly lost.

I don't think it is a parody. It is 5892



Note: No animals were actually hurt in making this post. The horse in the above picture is not dead. It is a very talented actor and appears dead. Please note the stick does not actually touch the horse - it is all special affects.

[Kfanarmy]

Anyone else notice that the DWBB team has won three in a row and are in almost an identical situation as the MBB team?

When is Angela Salvadores expected to return?

[DU82]

Its time for so many of our fans to stop saying our game is just unwatchable.

I agree our game tonight is unwatchable. Seems ESPN3 isn't streaming any games right now.

You keep mentioning "tractor offense". Could you please define that. I see decent motion out there, especially the last few games. The offense doe work better when Kyra or Angela are running the offense, instead of Rebecca, but with Angela out, Rebecca has to cover as point guard, as she did last year, and isn't as able to get open for shots. Mercedes just isn't a really good option at this point.

[wandalee]

Glad to know I'm not the only 1 who can't get the game on ESPN. Very frustrating.

[wandalee]

Angela just checked into the game.

[wandalee]

Duke up 34-26 at the half

[DukePA]

I agree our game tonight is unwatchable. Seems ESPN3 isn't streaming any games right now.

You keep mentioning "tractor offense". Could you please define that. I see decent motion out there, especially the last few games. The offense doe work better when Kyra or Angela are running the offense, instead of Rebecca, but with Angela out, Rebecca has to cover as point guard, as she did last year, and isn't as able to get open for shots. Mercedes just isn't a really good option at this point.

He got the the term "tractor offense" from Aim4Excellence on the other board many of us no longer frequent because of all the negativity. Blah, blah. Broken record.

Aswewere, are you seriously implying that Coach P is causing the injuries to our players?

"All of the above is more reasons to get rid of the out dated systems she runs. Stop hiring carbon copies of what she does in assistants. Realize that some time game adjustments by the coach can make a difference."

If you and the other haters are such basketball experts, what are your credentials?

[msdukie]

WatchESPN working now.

[OldPhiKap]

He got the the term "tractor offense" from Aim4Excellence on the other board many of us no longer frequent because of all the negativity. Blah, blah. Broken record.

Aswewere, are you seriously implying that Coach P is causing the injuries to our players?

"All of the above is more reasons to get rid of the out dated systems she runs. Stop hiring carbon copies of what she does in assistants. Realize that some time game adjustments by the coach can make a difference."

If you and the other haters are such basketball experts, what are your credentials?

I picture her as Kathy Bates in Misery.

[OZ]

Duke won 70-48.

Stevens 26 pts; Greenwell 22

[dudog84]

I expect after years against the better teams running her tractor offense where they are able to shut down our best shooters to have installed a motion or
other advanced system. It would be nice for once for her to take some accountability after all she is the head coach. Not to mention Joy one of my favorite
players / coaches the way that came down, plus others. Yes I see a trend, if nothing else junk the 1990s systems we have shown numerous times they are
outdated, like me.

At last! Now we get to see what the real motivation is. So one of your favorite players became an assistant coach and then moved on. Do you have proof from Joy herself that Coach P was the problem? Because every person I know changed jobs several times in their 20s. It’s what you did to get experience and advance. It wasn’t always because of a problem with the boss, it was often for more money, a better position, sometimes even for less money but a better opportunity for advancement. I myself worked for 4 major companies before I turned 30 and lived in Los Angeles, Denver, Raleigh, and Daytona Beach. Those were the days.

So because Coach P possibly slighted one of your favorite players we must throw the entire program under the bus and make a laughingstock of Duke University. Make no mistake, we would be a laughingstock for firing a women’s basketball (non-revenue sport) coach who has the highest winning percentage in ACC history. I am curious as to whether you are a Duke grad, because as one myself I am more concerned about Duke as a university than as a sports brand. I hope the Duke administration has their priorities in order.

Finally, as to the “tractor offense”. Will you agree that Coach G’s last team is basically what she left Coach P with? Of course, that team had a National Player of the Year point guard and an AP 3rd team All-American center. Who both graduated. That team scored 75.5 points/game, and it’s starting 5 started every single game together. In Coach P’s 8 years at Duke, her teams have averaged 72.9 points/game. A little more than a basket per game difference. Despite all the disruptions as researched so well by Kedsy. Seriously.

[burnspbesq]

Oddly, the tractor offense is currently number 9 in D1 in scoring and number 14 in field goal percentage.

[OldPhiKap]

Duke won 70-48.

Stevens 26 pts; Greenwell 22

Damn. How bad do we have to suck to win four in a row?

[DukieInKansas]

Damn. How bad do we have to suck to win four in a row?

How horrendous! Even if they have only won 4 in a row, I will still support them. Next thing you know, they might take the streak to 5 and maybe further. How awful. :D

[burnspbesq]

Box score says points in the paint were 36-4. The first two for Pitt came with 7:49 to go in the game.

[OldPhiKap]

How horrendous! Even if they have only won 4 in a row, I will still support them. Next thing you know, they might take the streak to 5 and maybe further. How awful. :D

Not me. I can't really get my grump on when we win.

[aswewere]

Recently at the season ticket holders dinner Al Brown took questions I ask when were we going to put in a motion type offense to get more open looks. He said good question
and we ought to see more of it in the coming weeks. Next years good news is Lexie Brown can generally find a decent shot with out to much system help. Along with Stevens
we will have two super STARS.

[Kedsy]

Next years good news is Lexie Brown can generally find a decent shot with out to much system help. Along with Stevens we will have two super STARS.

And if teams can't focus on stopping Becca (because they're too busy gameplanning for Lexie and Azurá), then Becca will probably play like a superstar too. Maybe Angela as well, assuming she gets fully healthy. With five additional players who were top 10 recruits (not including the above-named four), plus (hopefully) a senior who was top 15 and another four role players who were top-fifty types, next year looks very bright.

But I haven't given up on this year yet. The team seems to be improving every game.

[OZ]

Duke won 70-48.

Stevens 26 pts; Greenwell 22

I want to apologize to everyone for reporting the score. I was hesitant at first because I knew how upsetting it would be to everyone. I was also worried that the monitors might ban me from the board.
However, a more serious concern was that I ACTUALLY watched the game and found it to be... (Dare I say it?)..."WATCHABLE!"

[killerleft]

I want to apologize to everyone for reporting the score. I was hesitant at first because I knew how upsetting it would be to everyone. I was also worried that the monitors might ban me from the board.
However, a more serious concern was that I ACTUALLY watched the game and found it to be... (Dare I say it?)..."WATCHABLE!"

I'm glad somebody found it to be watchable. My feed kept being interrupted with a black screen and words to the effect that 'Your event has ended'. Then the game would come back within a minute or two. Finally I gave up with about three minutes left to go and ended the thing myself. Anyone else have that issue?

The parts I was able to watch were plenty watchable. Not a tractor in sight!:)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Maybe it was a case of looking past an "easy" opponent, but ND only beat GT by a score of 54-42, with all four quarters close. The second and the third the teams were only separated by 3 points (with GT having a 2 pt advantage in the third).
I'm pretty sure the Irish won't be overlooking Duke when we play.

[aswewere]

Maybe it was a case of looking past an "easy" opponent, but ND only beat GT by a score of 54-42, with all four quarters close. The second and the third the teams were only separated by 3 points (with GT having a 2 pt advantage in the third).
I'm pretty sure the Irish won't be overlooking Duke when we play.


Nope they will bring there A game, which includes shutting down Greenwell and letting the rest get there forty some points. Hope Becca takes coaches advice and runs tighter off her screens to get open.
Its a strange coincidence Tricia Liston had the same problems against most of the better teams.

[killerleft]

Recently at the season ticket holders dinner Al Brown took questions I ask when were we going to put in a motion type offense to get more open looks. He said good question
and we ought to see more of it in the coming weeks. Next years good news is Lexie Brown can generally find a decent shot with out to much system help. Along with Stevens
we will have two super STARS.

You keep answering some of the many questions you've asked us. Could it be that, because of frequent injuries, we have oftentimes lacked the ability to run a motion offense well?. Could it then be true that Coach P has run offensive sets that rely on the players to run them correctly to get good shots? Maybe the term 'tractor offense' is a misnomer. Perhaps, instead, the set plays are an acknowledgement that other teams could cover, say, Tricia Liston or Abby Waner, because they were our only outside threats. Which made the inside game more logical to employ.

As mentioned by Kedsy above, Rebecca Greenwell may be the biggest beneficiary of Lexis and Azura drawing the defense to them. She may be able to just stand and wait patiently for a pass to shoot an open three. This is where Tricia and Waner excelled, but only when the defense had to concentrate on other threats. Neither were wizards at creating their own shots, at least like Lexis can, or Chelsea Gray could.

The women's team is so young. Give 'em a chance! Even if you have some good ideas at times, a lot of us are getting tired of people trying to put a fake nose on McCallie, placing a pointy hat on her head, and figuratively shouting, "Throw her into the pond!".

[Kedsy]

The women's team is so young. Give 'em a chance! Even if you have some good ideas at times, a lot of us are getting tired of people trying to put a fake nose on McCallie, placing a pointy hat on her head, and figuratively shouting, "Throw her into the pond!".

She turned me into a newt -- but I got better.

[DukieInKansas]

I live in Kansas and the only tractors I know plow fields. Can someone explain what a tractor offense is, please?

[aswewere]

You keep answering some of the many questions you've asked us. Could it be that, because of frequent injuries, we have oftentimes lacked the ability to run a motion offense well?. Could it then be true that Coach P has run offensive sets that rely on the players to run them correctly to get good shots? Maybe the term 'tractor offense' is a misnomer. Perhaps, instead, the set plays are an acknowledgement that other teams could cover, say, Tricia Liston or Abby Waner, because they were our only outside threats. Which made the inside game more logical to employ.

As mentioned by Kedsy above, Rebecca Greenwell may be the biggest beneficiary of Lexis and Azura drawing the defense to them. She may be able to just stand and wait patiently for a pass to shoot an open three. This is where Tricia and Waner excelled, but only when the defense had to concentrate on other threats. Neither were wizards at creating their own shots, at least like Lexis can, or Chelsea Gray could.

The women's team is so young. Give 'em a chance! Even if you have some good ideas at times, a lot of us are getting tired of people trying to put a fake nose on McCallie, placing a pointy hat on her head, and figuratively shouting, "Throw her into the pond!".


Ok I will agree with you and coach its Beccas fault she did not get open and the rest of the players performance trough the years that created our attendance to decline as we tumble from the elite to the non ranked.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ok I will agree with you and coach its Beccas fault she did not get open and the rest of the players performance trough the years that created our attendance to decline as we tumble from the elite to the non ranked.
This actually reminds me of something I was thinking about yesterday.

When the women fail, it is rarely, if ever, that the players get called out. It's almost always Coach P's fault.
When the men fail, we regularly find fault with either one or many players, as well as K on occasion.

The women are legitimate targets of criticism, but they are not very often held accountable. As a team, yes, but not as individuals. Just an observance.

[aswewere]

This actually reminds me of something I was thinking about yesterday.

When the women fail, it is rarely, if ever, that the players get called out. It's almost always Coach P's fault.
When the men fail, we regularly find fault with either one or many players, as well as K on occasion.

The women are legitimate targets of criticism, but they are not very often held accountable. As a team, yes, but not as individuals. Just an observance.



I would not be in this discussion if I had ever heard coach take any responsibility for any of the things that have come down in her tenure.

[Indoor66]

I would not be in this discussion if I had ever heard coach take any responsibility for any of the things that have come down in her tenure.

I guess it has been about two or three days since we last had this discussion. Obviously, it is time to do it again. :confused::rolleyes::mad::cool:

[dudog84]

Nope they will bring there A game, which includes shutting down Greenwell and letting the rest get there forty some points. Hope Becca takes coaches advice and runs tighter off her screens to get open.
Its a strange coincidence Tricia Liston had the same problems against most of the better teams.

Hold it, are we talking about the same Tricia Liston who was a mid-30s recruit and Coach P turned into a first-round WNBA draft pick? The same Tricia Liston who has made more 3-pointers than any woman in Duke history? The same Tricia Liston who has the highest 3-point field goal percentage of any woman in Duke history? That Tricia Liston?

You know, you might get a little more respect around here if you knew what the hell you were talking about. But no, you have to take any slight opening you're given and stretch it into a snippy little jab at this Duke coach. I, for one, am sick of it.

[killerleft]

Ok I will agree with you and coach its Beccas fault she did not get open and the rest of the players performance trough the years that created our attendance to decline as we tumble from the elite to the non ranked.

You are putting words in my mouth while ignoring my post wholesale. I am not the one down on the team. I am not down on Becca.

[dudog84]

Nope they will bring there A game, which includes shutting down Greenwell and letting the rest get there forty some points. Hope Becca takes coaches advice and runs tighter off her screens to get open.
Its a strange coincidence Tricia Liston had the same problems against most of the better teams.

Another thing about this post. Before you put this nonsense up, I'd already shown that Coach P's teams have averaged 72.3 points/game and another poster showed that this year Duke has the #9 scoring team and #14 field goal percentage team. As for "there forty some" (sic) points, the team has scored 48 points once this year in 22 games. 49 points once last year in 34 games (with no point guard, although Ka'lia did a phenomenal job). No games in the forties the year before that. Do you really want to continue with this silliness? Or do you plan to troll on?