MBB: Utah 77, Duke 75 Post-Game Thread

[kAzE]

We played with some real heart down the stretch, but today there were too many hurdles to overcome. Didn't play great defensively to start the game, but really had some winning effort down the stretch, just couldn't hit the big shots and free throws when they mattered the most.

Amile's injury has destroyed our ability to play zone defense, but I think we would still have won if Grayson was 100%. Great to see even more growth from Luke. He will be a big part of the offense going forward.

The one thing I'm a bit worried about: It was shocking to see that we turned to Brandon to play at the 5 with Marshall in foul trouble. I really hope one of the other bigs can really step it up to fill that gap in our lineup.

[lmb]

Agreed. The team showed a lot of heart. Frankly, when they were down I was expecting it to be a double digit loss. Shame on me.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Tough loss - thought for a moment it was going to break our way at the end.

Would have liked to have seen us go away from a clearly-ailing Grayson a little earlier and put the ball into Luke's hands for more than free throws.

Hard to win when you are down one and a half of your veterans.

[azzefkram]

Disappointed in the outcome but I think we played with heart. A healthy Grayson makes this a very different game. We left too many shots on the rim (29% on lay-ups is super bad).

[SCMatt33]

Well first, you definitely can't question the toughness of the team. Down a man, with another sick, they comeback both early in the second half and in the overtime. Throw on top of that that most of the guys are going straight home for the holiday and they could easily have packed it in. The problem is that Duke isn't much of a passing team and when your not hitting shots and they have a good rim protector, you can go long stretches without much scoring when a guy like Jefferson isn't there to get you second attempts.

Overall, this one probably hurts me a bit more than it should just because Duke had chances to hold the lead in regulation and they tried to hand us a comeback in ot.

[DukieInBrasil]

our starting guards shot 11-50. Not gonna win many games when the strength of our team shoots 20% FG. We also got outrebounded by 18.

[jipops]

No excuses, this was a pretty bad loss... not that any loss is ever good. The Utes just didn't look like a very good team to me.

I really didn't think either played particularly well. It's kind of hard to say who actually deserved it. Without Utah's variety of mental miscues and turnovers, I'm not sure we would have even been in this thing. The only thing giving Utah much resistance was themselves. Neither team seemed to be capable of managing the game at all at the end. Our youth really showed at the end of regulation with such a string of empty possessions. Utah had their spurt to start OT and that pretty much did it save for their mental fart in fouling Kennard.

Our options in the 1-3-1 and 2-3 are diminished, but going man-to-man puts us at a disadvantageous position with foul trouble.

On the positive side, Ingram and Kennard had really nice games. I thought Ingram played like a much stronger kid today mixing it up around the lane.

The fact that we are rated #1 in offensive efficiency seems like a huge anomaly to me. I expect to see that really plummet after today and as we go through January.

[Saratoga2]

It's a loss but I can't say I am upset by it. We played hard and with a limited rotation. Clearly, some of our guys were very tired at the end and we continually missed little chippies and some key free throws. Yes, if Grayson had been more of himself, we would probably have won. Clearly we miss Amile's presence and we will have more games where we have to survive without him. They made their FT's in the end while we didn't, but they also were very sloppy with the ball and gave us an opportunity. We could well have brought it to a second OT and who knows.

We were shredded in the beginning of the game where they got behind the 2-3 zone for a number of layups. MP3 played about as well as we can expect and it was against a real star center. Matt had a good game but looked beat at the end. Grayson apparently was dealing with flu like symptoms and didn't finish or shoot well tonight. I think Brandon was tired, but it was the play I would have gone to at the end, he just couldn't finish it. Derryck looked fairly good but had trouble finishing at the rim. Probably the presence of a big there. Chase tried hard and it was another learning situation for him.

The guy who really came through tonight was Luke. I watched his defense tonight and it was energetic and for the most part good. He has a nose for the ball and his offense was outstanding. I wanted him to have the ball on every possession going down the stretch, but instead several of our best guys tried to push and missed so Luke only got the ball a few times and when he did, he was a scoring machine. Clearly you can see this kid is going to make a big difference for Duke going forward.

[Wander]

The one thing I'm a bit worried about: It was shocking to see that we turned to Brandon to play at the 5 with Marshall in foul trouble.

Shocking? I mean this as neither a complaint nor a compliment about Coach K, but playing a better-player not-center over a worse-player true-center at the 5 is about as predictable as it gets for him.

[CoSprings]

K's decision to start the game in zone was a huge mistake. It set the tone for the game. It communicates that we were playing from a position of weakness and passivity, afraid to be aggressive, and it carried over into the offense.

Not sure how anyone can watch that game and think Utah is a very good team. They are a double digit loss squad if the played in ACC.

Overcame a lot but just an underwhelming performance at too many spots to overcome really awful shooting.

Thornton and Jeter need significant improvement. Disappointed so far in their ability to transition to big boy basketball.

[Henderson]

Tough to win when you shoot 30% from the floor and get beat badly on the boards. Krystkowiak game-planned around the Jefferson absence, and it paid off. The team needs to get used to that.

On the bright side, this should lift us up a few spots in the AP poll.

[wsb3]

Tough loss - thought for a moment it was going to break our way at the end.

Would have liked to have seen us go away from a clearly-ailing Grayson a little earlier and put the ball into Luke's hands for more than free throws.

Hard to win when you are down one and a half of your veterans.

Agree. We had some big possessions down the stretch & we kept running the offense through Grayson..which is fine anytime but today when he was obviously struggling. My hat is off to him for playing as hard & as long as he did. That is one of the reasons at the end I was pulling for a hopefully somewhat open 3 & win or go home. But not another OT with Grayson sick. Marshall fouled out..& our bench not much of a bench at this point.

They will learn from this..Next play.

[bleedingblue88]

We really had our chances, I'm not too worried.

Ingram missed point blank layup to tie it at the end. So many point blank layups missed by everyone. Obviously any team will lose when your starting backcourt (Allen and Thornton) shoot a combined 5 for 31. Allen will recover (though he seems prone to the occasional horrific shooting performance, I think we'd all rather he become a more consistent force). To me, Thornton is still a questionable talent. I think we all are used to having really good point guards starting at Duke, but this guy may just be a non-factor in the end.

[FireOgilvie]

Utah had the best player on the court; Poeltl is really good. We really needed Amile in this one. Jeter wasn't the answer. Maybe we need to see more Vrank or Obi in the future; at least they have good hands and can hold onto the ball.

[NashvilleDevil]

We really had our chances, I'm not too worried.

Ingram missed point blank layup to tie it at the end. So many point blank layups missed by everyone. Obviously any team will lose when your starting backcourt (Allen and Thornton) shoot a combined 5 for 31. Allen will recover (though he seems prone to the occasional horrific shooting performance, I think we'd all rather he become a more consistent force). To me, Thornton is still a questionable talent. I think we all are used to having really good point guards starting at Duke, but this guy may just be a non-factor in the end.

Based on what exactly? Because of a couple poor games? Doesn't a certain person in a leadership position at Duke always say that each player runs his own race? Why don't we let Thornton run his own race before we declare he will be a non-factor in only his 11th game of the year.

[jipops]

We really had our chances, I'm not too worried.

Ingram missed point blank layup to tie it at the end. So many point blank layups missed by everyone. Obviously any team will lose when your starting backcourt (Allen and Thornton) shoot a combined 5 for 31. Allen will recover (though he seems prone to the occasional horrific shooting performance, I think we'd all rather he become a more consistent force). To me, Thornton is still a questionable talent. I think we all are used to having really good point guards starting at Duke, but this guy may just be a non-factor in the end.

Yea, Ingram's miss at the end was really a microcosm of the entire game for Duke. Just wasn't meant to be, no matter how bad Utah wanted to give it away.

[CoSprings]

And why is Thornton shooting the ball 13 times? Wow. 2 for 13.

[mo.st.dukie]

And why is Thornton shooting the ball 13 times? Wow. 2 for 13.

Why not? With Amile out, our guards and wings have to carry the load. Ingram got plenty of shots, Grayson got plenty of shots, Matt got plenty of shots, and Luke got plenty of shots. We certainly are not going to give more shots to Plumlee and Jeter. Derryck and the rest of the perimeter players are our offense right now, nothing wrong with any of them getting a lot of shots. As in any game, it's alway better when those shots go in and today that just wasn't happening.

[dukelifer]

Duke is a better team than they showed today. So not too worried. But the team is fragile. Losing Amile is huge for a team with few inside options. The D also is not the same without him on the court. The guys battled and had the game where they wanted, but really played poorly down the stretch. Perhaps if Grayson was 100%, those layups go in. Kennard showed what his is capable of doing. Just needs to be consistent. After the next two games, the ACC season starts ON THE ROAD. Gonna be a rough ride for a while. This team has a pretty small margin for winning and many games will come down to the last few possessions. Need to play much better than today in crunch time.

[Troublemaker]

K's decision to start the game in zone was a huge mistake. It set the tone for the game. It communicates that we were playing from a position of weakness and passivity, afraid to be aggressive, and it carried over into the offense.

I think that's fair criticism. Specifically, for awhile we kept switching in between 2-3, 1-3-1, and man on each trip down the floor, and it probably only served to confuse Duke rather than the opponent. Switching defenses is probably something we needed to practice over the upcoming break to get right, if it's even possible for this young team to get right, especially since we're just starting the process of adjusting to life without Amile as well. Our defense settled down pretty good once we stuck to man-2-man.

[YmoBeThere]

23 of 77, 22 of 76 is you take out Marshall's one shot. Also, 9 of those shots were blocked. How many drives down the lane did they knock away? And those blocks weren't just Poetl, he only had 3 of them.

Despite this, the team had a shot at the win. Still early in the season and several players still have much to learn. We'll have more games like this one during the season.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

It's all practice 'til March. They (and we) learned a LOT today. Have a great holiday, guys! You've earned it.

Love, Ima

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, hard to be upset. Shorthanded, ill, shooting poorly, but still made several comebacks to get back in the game.

Hopefully this game sparks Luke into consistent performance.

Hopefully when the boys return from break, the team can experiment a bit more and find an identity without Amile. Hopefully the Elon and LBSU games will help with figuring all that out so that we'll be ready for conference season.

[indy1duke]

We were at the game today and it wasn't any more enjoyable than the one on tv. One particularly annoying thing is the failure to show any replays that were a smidgen controversial. To pay $85 and be censored Is hard to take. Does any one think that the safety of the players or fans is in jeopardy seeing a replay on a neutral court between non-rivals?

It could be a long year in conference play this year. Wish Amile a speedy recovery. Can anyone recall a Duke team missing more layups?

[NashvilleDevil]

We were at the game today and it wasn't any more enjoyable than the one on tv. One particularly annoying thing is the failure to show any replays that were a smidgen controversial. To pay $85 and be censored Is hard to take. Does any one think that the safety of the players or fans is in jeopardy seeing a replay on a neutral court between non-rivals?

It could be a long year in conference play this year. Wish Amile a speedy recovery. Can anyone recall a Duke team missing more layups?

Yes, last year in the title game Duke missed a ton of layups that kept Wisconsin in the game early.

[Edouble]

Damn, I missed the whole game. I could have sworn the pregame thread title said 19:00 aka 7:00 PM. I guess I misread the 19th as 19:00 somehow. I will have to be more careful.

[Devilwin]

We'll be fine folks, don't fret. I for one, questioned the last shot, believe I'd have given Luke the shot. But that's me, and I haven't won over 1000 games.:(

[CameronDuke]

Wow - what a crazy and mostly sloppy game from both teams. I'm hearing and reading lots of analysis on the last play where Ingram had a missed shot pretty close in to potentially tie the game. I thought the in bounds play was well defended by Utah. Actually, the play before, Duke attempted to inbound the ball and the clock started and Utah was defending that play well too.

The story of the game to me was some lapses in performance offensively and defensively, really more mental mistakes. Yes, we had a horrendous shooting display today but I keep reading we missed a lot of "layups." I didn't see many uncontested layups we missed. In fact, we made most uncontested layups we shot. We missed out of rhythm, contested, early in the shot clock close in shots but not many layups. This was due to Utah speeding us up and giving us lanes to drive to the basket, especially Allen and Thornton. They were almost welcoming drives from Allen and Thornton. We had many drives by those two end in blocked shots down the stretch (Utah had NINE - 9 BLOCKS TODAY!) or tough, off balance shots from weird angles that they grabbed the rebound on. This is just the result of being very impatient offensively and of course missing Amile who we usually run the offense through in lots of offensive sets. We showed a lot of heart to come back in the 2nd half and take the lead as well as come back in OT, but in OT, Utah went totally brain dead by fouling us with the lead time and time again.

Defensively, they torched our zone. The 2-3 and 1-3-1 just didn't work. They got so many baskets in the paint and by running a player up the baseline from the corner at will. We couldn't defend in the zone for much of the game. We are obviously very thin in the front court right now and defensively, when we had Ingram, Jones, Thornton, Jeter, and Kennard out there at the same time, we suffered defensively. We need MP3 to play smarter and not commit unnecessary, weak fouls. Without him as a rim protector, we got sliced defensively today.

When we get Amile back, this may not happen as much. We will be fine eventually but our team defense without Amile will need improvement in the meantime. Hopefully we continue to show the fight we played with for the majority of the game today.

[weezie]

Damn, I missed the whole game. I could have sworn the pregame thread title said 19:00 aka 7:00 PM. I guess I misread the 19th as 19:00 somehow. I will have to be more careful.

Ok then, now we have someone to blame.

[kAzE]

No excuses, this was a pretty bad loss... not that any loss is ever good. The Utes just didn't look like a very good team to me.

I really didn't think either played particularly well. It's kind of hard to say who actually deserved it. Without Utah's variety of mental miscues and turnovers, I'm not sure we would have even been in this thing. The only thing giving Utah much resistance was themselves. Neither team seemed to be capable of managing the game at all at the end. Our youth really showed at the end of regulation with such a string of empty possessions. Utah had their spurt to start OT and that pretty much did it save for their mental fart in fouling Kennard.

Our options in the 1-3-1 and 2-3 are diminished, but going man-to-man puts us at a disadvantageous position with foul trouble.

On the positive side, Ingram and Kennard had really nice games. I thought Ingram played like a much stronger kid today mixing it up around the lane.

The fact that we are rated #1 in offensive efficiency seems like a huge anomaly to me. I expect to see that really plummet after today and as we go through January.

I have to disagree that it was a BAD loss. It wasn't terrible, but given our situation, I think we probably deserve a little bit of a pass. We were playing with 4 and a half guys on the floor most of the game. Grayson did not look anything like his usual self, and we're missing a starting captain, so our team's ceiling is absolutely lower. Yes, neither team played well offensively, but I thought both teams played pretty well on defense. Duke on the perimeter, and Utah in the paint. While obviously I wish we had won, I think there were about equal positive and negative takeaways from this game.

The main positive is that we've got Luke going now. The extra playing time that he's gotten with Amile out has really helped him get comfortable with his offensive game. The best part about his game is similar to Grayson's: he's not afraid to take inside and mix it up. 13 free throws is unbelievable for a freshman, and he lead the team with 8 rebounds. Another positive is that I wouldn't be surprised if this is our worst shooting performance of the year. There's a LONG way still to go, but it's hard to do worse than 29.9% and yet we were right there to steal a win at the end. To shoot this poorly AND get killed on the boards and STILL have a chance to win it gives me a little reassurance. Luke/Brandon/Grayson is a really potent 1-2-3 scoring punch that not many teams have. I'm fairly confident in our ability to be a top 5 offense all season long even without Amile.

The big negative has to be our front court. Marshall played very poorly against Poetl and Chase still looked lost out there. We were lucky that we were able to get Poetl in foul trouble. He would truly have had a monstrous game otherwise. Our rebounding is completely gone without Amile, and One of the keys to our success going forward is that everyone will need to compete on the boards. They were +21 on us for defensive boards. Not good. Marshall has to help control the boards. And he's gotta find a way to stay out of foul trouble.

[Saratoga2]

Defensively, they torched our zone. The 2-3 and 1-3-1 just didn't work. They got so many baskets in the paint and by running a player up the baseline from the corner at will. We couldn't defend in the zone for much of the game. We are obviously very thin in the front court right now and defensively, when we had Ingram, Jones, Thornton, Jeter, and Kennard out there at the same time, we suffered defensively. We need MP3 to play smarter and not commit unnecessary, weak fouls. Without him as a rim protector, we got sliced defensively today.


MP3's main contribution was to put a body on Poeltl. I don't think he did a lot other than that and Jeter does look lost at times so that we didn't have an effective front court and theirs was better. I thought Ingram, Jones and Kennard all played fairly well defensively so there is some hope in that.

While they had a lot of blocks against us, we also looked tired and or intimidated when driving and missed quite a few chippies in close. Any one of those would have won the game. Thornton, Allen and even Jones had misses on what looked pretty chippie opportunities. We also had good FT % players missing. Possibly we will need to extend the rotation to keep our guys a little fresher.

[jipops]

I have to disagree that it was a BAD loss. It wasn't terrible, but given our situation, I think we probably deserve a little bit of a pass. We were playing with 4 and a half guys on the floor most of the game. Grayson did not look anything like his usual self, and we're missing a starting captain, so our team's ceiling is absolutely lower. Yes, neither team played well offensively, but I thought both teams played pretty well on defense. Duke on the perimeter, and Utah in the paint. While obviously I wish we had won, I think there were about equal positive and negative takeaways from this game.

The main positive is that we've got Luke going now. The extra playing time that he's gotten with Amile out has really helped him get comfortable with his offensive game. The best part about his game is similar to Grayson's: he's not afraid to take inside and mix it up. 13 free throws is unbelievable for a freshman, and he lead the team with 8 rebounds. Another positive is that I wouldn't be surprised if this is our worst shooting performance of the year. There's a LONG way still to go, but it's hard to do worse than 29.9% and yet we were right there to steal a win at the end. To shoot this poorly AND get killed on the boards and STILL have a chance to win it gives me a little reassurance.

The big negative has to be our front court. Marshall played very poorly against Poetl and Chase still looked lost out there. We were lucky that we were able to get Poetl in foul trouble. He would truly have had a monstrous game otherwise. Our rebounding is completely gone without Amile, and One of the keys to our success going forward is that everyone will need to compete on the boards. They were +21 on us for defensive boards. Not good. Marshall has to help control the boards. And he's gotta find a way to stay out of foul trouble.

I label it as a bad loss given what has been on our schedule and what is potentially down the road. Kentucky was our only opportunity for a marquee win before January. Duke has no wins over ranked opponents heading into the new year, which is actually pretty rare. Even the '13-'14 team had one. Today wouldn't have been one either obviously, but the loss hurts more than the win may have helped. Now with the ACC approaching and almost no options available in the front court we're likely looking at a number of stumbles over the next 2-1/2 months.

Three of the first four ACC games take place on the road. Not at all outside the possibility we come away with at least one loss there. Not long after that we have a very good Syracuse team at home, play @NC State (where for some reason we almost never play well no matter how bad they are), @#15 Miami, 2 games vs. Lousville, UVA at home, & 2 games vs the cheats. Now we may still win a couple of those games, but we could also easily lose a couple that I didn't mention who essentially aren't any worse than the Utes. I don't think it is at all outside the realm of possibility this team could be staring at a double digit loss regular season. That wouldn't look good to the selection committee. So for those prospective reasons, yea today seemed like a bad loss to me.

On the other hand, the light might come on for Derryk at any moment and suddenly we have a distributor. Maybe Kennard starts hitting for a higher percentage. Maybe Marshall focuses completely on defense and rebounding and becomes somewhat of a stalwart down there. Some things could go right too.

[Neals384]

No one mentioned the big 2nd half run that took us from 7 down to 7 up. Great up-tempo offense in that stretch!

[Edouble]

Ok then, now we have someone to blame.

Ahem, well, I have been known to bring good luck. I have 5 Natty's under my belt at this point.

(Couldn't spork you weezie :( )

[jipops]

I label it as a bad loss given what has been on our schedule and what is potentially down the road. Kentucky was our only opportunity for a marquee win before January. Duke has no wins over ranked opponents heading into the new year, which is actually pretty rare. Even the '13-'14 team had one. Today wouldn't have been one either obviously, but the loss hurts more than the win may have helped. Now with the ACC approaching and almost no options available in the front court we're likely looking at a number of stumbles over the next 2-1/2 months.

Three of the first four ACC games take place on the road. Not at all outside the possibility we come away with at least one loss there. Not long after that we have a very good Syracuse team at home, play @NC State (where for some reason we almost never play well no matter how bad they are), @#15 Miami, 2 games vs. Lousville, UVA at home, & 2 games vs the cheats. Now we may still win a couple of those games, but we could also easily lose a couple that I didn't mention who essentially aren't any worse than the Utes. I don't think it is at all outside the realm of possibility this team could be staring at a double digit loss regular season. That wouldn't look good to the selection committee. So for those prospective reasons, yea today seemed like a bad loss to me.

On the other hand, the light might come on for Derryk at any moment and suddenly we have a distributor. Maybe Kennard starts hitting for a higher percentage. Maybe Marshall focuses completely on defense and rebounding and becomes somewhat of a stalwart down there. Some things could go right too.

DERRYCK!! Good lawd, sp.

[Troublemaker]

I don't think it is at all outside the realm of possibility this team could be staring at a double digit loss regular season. That wouldn't look good to the selection committee. So for those prospective reasons, yea today seemed like a bad loss to me.

Even if we go 20-11 (9-9 ACC), we'll make the tournament. (And I find that scenario to be extremely pessimistic). As disappointing as our non-conference opponents have fared, Indiana is a likely tournament team that we have already beaten, and VCU and Georgetown are two other possibilities if they get better. (I know the Hoosiers played horribly at Cameron, but they're a likely tournament team that beat Notre Dame today on a neutral court.) And then over the course of winning 9 ACC games in this hypothetical, at least a couple of those wins should be against tournament teams. So, I wouldn't sweat making the tourney. I'm just hoping Amile returns soon enough that the team can re-gain chemistry playing with him for a tournament run.

[Neals384]

Well, I hate to say it, but IMHO there were two clear coaching errors today. Normally when a player picks up foul #3, he will go to the bench so that a tired/frustrrated/overmatched player does not immediate foul again. Yet MPIII picked up foul #3 and #4 just 12 seconds apart.

Then at 5:15 of the second half, when Poeltl returned with 4 fouls, we needed to get MPIII back in immediately. Nope, had to call timeout less than a minute later - so a wasted timeout there.

(Cue the chorus saying God, er., K can't be criticized. And no, I don't have 1,000 coaching wins.)

[OldPhiKap]

Really impressed with the heart of the team and the great effort down the stretch. Amile out, in foul trouble, Grayson fighting a bug, and missed free throws each contributed to the result.

Bet Brandon doesn't miss the next time an opportunity like that presents itself. Part of the process.

[Dev11]

Bet Brandon doesn't miss the next time an opportunity like that presents itself. Part of the process.

Grant Hill missed the baseball pass in 1992 against Wake, right? Or did he make it? The folklore sometimes outshines the truth.

I'm disappointed we couldn't eek out that win today, and that Coach doesn't think Obi or Vrank are worth throwing at Poeltl at least to try to draw the fifth foul. I get it, though, if they aren't ready, they sit. The interior depth feels like when we had Gbinije and Murphy on the bench when we needed a swingman.

The poor shooting today was likely an aberration, but they need to move the ball around better to get good looks in motion.

I look forward to improvements on both ends of the floor.

[sagegrouse]

Grant Hill missed the baseball pass in 1992 against Wake, right? Or did he make it? The folklore sometimes outshines the truth.


Oh, my! That floor-length pass against Wake at the end of the game was truly ugly. As I recall, it curved off the court.

[OldPhiKap]

Grant Hill missed the baseball pass in 1992 against Wake, right? Or did he make it? The folklore sometimes outshines the truth.


Oh, my! That floor-length pass against Wake at the end of the game was truly ugly. As I recall, it curved off the court.

Funny, I though of exactly the same play.

[TKG]

As to Brandon's missed shot, I thought of Laettner missing free throws against Arizona (I think) in East Rutherford in his freshman year. Upper classman Quinn Snyder rushed to him and took Laettner's face in his hands and told Christian that things would be fine. Hope someone did the same to Brandon today.

[Scorp4me]

...and that Coach doesn't think Obi or Vrank are worth throwing at Poeltl at least to try to draw the fifth foul. I get it, though, if they aren't ready, they sit. The interior depth feels like when we had Gbinije and Murphy on the bench when we needed a swingman...

I just don't get it. I mean I'm not questioning the decision, I just don't understand how it's come to this. How is Obi not at least someone to consider in the situation we find ourselves in??? This is not some incoming freshman who we have nothing to go on or a backup who everyone thinks is better than the starter. This is a redshirt sophomore who we've seen play (albeit at another school), in a situation where our starter is hurt and we are in need of some help. I wish we had more information because right now it just looks stupid.

[jipops]

Ok then, now we have someone to blame.

I blame Jimmy Fallon's sweater.

[grossbus]

As to Brandon's missed shot, I thought of Laettner missing free throws against Arizona (I think) in East Rutherford in his freshman year. Upper classman Quinn Snyder rushed to him and took Laettner's face in his hands and told Christian that things would be fine. Hope someone did the same to Brandon today.

IIRC, it was K that did this, not Quinn. When Christian went to the line late against UNLV, I thought of this and was confident he would make both shots.

[OldPhiKap]

As to Brandon's missed shot, I thought of Laettner missing free throws against Arizona (I think) in East Rutherford in his freshman year. Upper classman Quinn Snyder rushed to him and took Laettner's face in his hands and told Christian that things would be fine. Hope someone did the same to Brandon today.

Yup, Arizona in the Meadowlands.

Dick Nixon reportedly came in to the locker room after the game and told Christian, "Don't worry son. I've blown the big one, too"

[ChillinDuke]

I label it as a bad loss given what has been on our schedule and what is potentially down the road. Kentucky was our only opportunity for a marquee win before January. Duke has no wins over ranked opponents heading into the new year, which is actually pretty rare. Even the '13-'14 team had one. Today wouldn't have been one either obviously, but the loss hurts more than the win may have helped. Now with the ACC approaching and almost no options available in the front court we're likely looking at a number of stumbles over the next 2-1/2 months.

Three of the first four ACC games take place on the road. Not at all outside the possibility we come away with at least one loss there. Not long after that we have a very good Syracuse team at home, play @NC State (where for some reason we almost never play well no matter how bad they are), @#15 Miami, 2 games vs. Lousville, UVA at home, & 2 games vs the cheats. Now we may still win a couple of those games, but we could also easily lose a couple that I didn't mention who essentially aren't any worse than the Utes. I don't think it is at all outside the realm of possibility this team could be staring at a double digit loss regular season. That wouldn't look good to the selection committee. So for those prospective reasons, yea today seemed like a bad loss to me.

On the other hand, the light might come on for Derryk at any moment and suddenly we have a distributor. Maybe Kennard starts hitting for a higher percentage. Maybe Marshall focuses completely on defense and rebounding and becomes somewhat of a stalwart down there. Some things could go right too.

Generally speaking, I'd say your view here is pretty far down the pessimistic side of the spectrum. Which is fine. I just don't personally share it.

It was a frustrating loss. And there were a lot of things that we just didn't do well today. But there were some pretty heartening aspects as well - and others have mentioned them so I won't repeat here.

But also, Utah is not at all a bad team. They have a lot of length in that lineup. And Poeltl is pretty impressive. Heck, they were ranked last week; KenPom has them currently at #38 (post our game). So a little perspective here. This isn't like a loss to Georgia Southern here.

So our early season includes wins vs (all numbers KenPom) #92 Yale, #65 G'Town, #55 VCU, #25 Indiana and losses vs #12 Kentucky, #38 Utah (without our captain). It's not spectacular, I agree. But it's also not anywhere near poor. It's not even near average.

Let's compare with our favorite team down the road. Wins vs #81 Kansas St, #64 Davidson, #52 Northwestern, #39 UCLA, #19 Maryland and losses vs #44 Texas, #68 Northern Iowa (without their captain).

Now UNC did win on the road at Maryland and lost on the road at Texas. But I think the point still holds. I wouldn't really say their resume is materially better than ours. Better, but not by much. Other than perhaps in program name value, the statistical metrics just don't have their wins as major upgrades over ours.

Would you say UNC is in any danger of not "looking good" to the selection committee?

I think we're fine.

- Chillin

[sagegrouse]

As to Brandon's missed shot, I thought of Laettner missing free throws against Arizona (I think) in East Rutherford in his freshman year. Upper classman Quinn Snyder rushed to him and took Laettner's face in his hands and told Christian that things would be fine. Hope someone did the same to Brandon today.

Oh yes, and he was consoled in the locker room by ex-President Richard Nixon.

[Troublemaker]

I just don't get it. I mean I'm not questioning the decision, I just don't understand how it's come to this. How is Obi not at least someone to consider in the situation we find ourselves in??? This is not some incoming freshman who we have nothing to go on or a backup who everyone thinks is better than the starter. This is a redshirt sophomore who we've seen play (albeit at another school), in a situation where our starter is hurt and we are in need of some help. I wish we had more information because right now it just looks stupid.

With rotation decisions, the information is usually going to be implicit. If Marshall hasn't been playing all that well and Chase has really been struggling but Sean STILL can't get on the court, then that must mean that Sean is even another level below them and therefore not ready.

We should tend to trust this implicit information. For example, prior to the past couple of games, many including myself were wondering why Chase hasn't been receiving more minutes. Now? Now, we kinda know, don't we? And so we realize we should've trusted the implicit information about Chase.

[Kedsy]

I was at the game, and I thought we played pretty well. We shot very poorly, and we had that stretch early where they got a bunch of uncontested dunks against our 2-3 zone, but other than that I liked what I saw. I loved the heart we showed making both a second half comeback and an overtime comeback. My guess is we'll wait years before we see us miss so many layups again. Either way, it was a very exciting game to watch.


On the other hand, the light might come on for Derryk at any moment and suddenly we have a distributor.

You guys are giving Derryck way too hard a time. In our last three games he has 13 assists and only 3 turnovers. That sounds like a distributor to me. He hasn't shot well over most of the season, but frankly neither has Luke for most of the season.


But also, Utah is not at all a bad team.

I gotta say, Utah looked like a pretty good team to me. I was thinking during the game the Utes could make some noise in the NCAAT. I was especially impressed with Poeltl, Kuzma, and Bonam, all of whom not only played well today but also seemed like they're really good players.

[vick]

You guys are giving Derryck way too hard a time. In our last three games he has 13 assists and only 3 turnovers. That sounds like a distributor to me. He hasn't shot well over most of the season, but frankly neither has Luke for most of the season.

I place less importance on having a single "distributor" or "pure point guard" than most people, but I'm not sure Thornton really qualifies. So far he only assists on ~18% of teammate field goals, which isn't really very high for a point guard--for comparison, Wojo was in the mid-20%s and Duhon was around 30%.

By and large, though, I agree with your assessment of the game. I'm not sure what some people expect, to be honest. Amile was probably our second best player so far this season, and we weren't very deep on the front line to begin with. It's a large dropoff from Amile to Marshall, and a large dropoff from Marshall to the rest of the big men, so without Amile, it's going to be a struggle sometimes, especially against an NBA-caliber center. Throw in our best player having the flu, and a rough game really should not surprise anyone, nor be at all alarming for what the team can do if healthy.

[dukelifer]

I just don't get it. I mean I'm not questioning the decision, I just don't understand how it's come to this. How is Obi not at least someone to consider in the situation we find ourselves in??? This is not some incoming freshman who we have nothing to go on or a backup who everyone thinks is better than the starter. This is a redshirt sophomore who we've seen play (albeit at another school), in a situation where our starter is hurt and we are in need of some help. I wish we had more information because right now it just looks stupid.

How much time do you think it would take for you to make an assessment of Obi's abilities? 20 minutes of game time? Do you think K is keeping him off the court knowing that he could be a major contributor? The coaches see him every day. An announcer last week mentioned that his knees have been an issue. I don't think he is in a doghouse. I think he is not ready - likely hampered by something- and he is not a great option at this point.

[DU82]

As to Brandon's missed shot, I thought of Laettner missing free throws against Arizona (I think) in East Rutherford in his freshman year. Upper classman Quinn Snyder rushed to him and took Laettner's face in his hands and told Christian that things would be fine. Hope someone did the same to Brandon today.

Nate walked to the locker room with his arm wrapped around Brandon's shoulder, talking to him the entire way. I thought immediately of Laettner against Arizona.

[Kfanarmy]

Duke's short bench can be really frustrating. I know 5 championships...but sometimes Duke seems hyper-sensitive to single injuries. Utah has one really good player, and a handful of seniors, but they were not impressive against a sick, shorthanded Duke team...I think Duke wins by 20 with Jefferson and a healthy Allen on the court...which makes the short bench all the more frustrating, to me.

[-bdbd]

Disappointing to lose, always, but this wasn't a "bad" loss. Utah is a borderline top-25 team and will at least make the round of 32 at tourney time. And Duke just lost its linchpin/captain on D (who would have been guarding their star player!!), and was playing with a very sick top scorer (who unsurprisingly had a bad night). Utah played very well for most of the game. We make a few more FTs, or have a couple bunnies (like the one at the end) stay in, and we woulda won. Not a big deal.

Next play.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Duke's short bench can be really frustrating. I know 5 championships...but sometimes Duke seems hyper-sensitive to single injuries. Utah has one really good player, and a handful of seniors, but they were not impressive against a sick, shorthanded Duke team...I think Duke wins by 20 with Jefferson and a healthy Allen on the court...which makes the short bench all the more frustrating, to me.

Did miss a few minutes in the 2nd half flipping back and forth, but...

You guys were lucky not to lose that game by double digits.

Honestly thought both teams looked pretty bad today. The level of play was not high by anyone's measure...and Utah's collapse in simple end game execution up 6 and the ball with 20 seconds in regulation was laughable.

Best to just move on from this one and hope it was an anomaly.

[devildeac]

Grant Hill missed the baseball pass in 1992 against Wake, right? Or did he make it? The folklore sometimes outshines the truth.

I'm disappointed we couldn't eek out that win today, and that Coach doesn't think Obi or Vrank are worth throwing at Poeltl at least to try to draw the fifth foul. I get it, though, if they aren't ready, they sit. The interior depth feels like when we had Gbinije and Murphy on the bench when we needed a swingman.

The poor shooting today was likely an aberration, but they need to move the ball around better to get good looks in motion.

I look forward to improvements on both ends of the floor.


Oh, my! That floor-length pass against Wake at the end of the game was truly ugly. As I recall, it curved off the court.

Sage is wise and correct. But that was just practice, of course;).

[devildeac]

Generally speaking, I'd say your view here is pretty far down the pessimistic side of the spectrum. Which is fine. I just don't personally share it.

It was a frustrating loss. And there were a lot of things that we just didn't do well today. But there were some pretty heartening aspects as well - and others have mentioned them so I won't repeat here.

But also, Utah is not at all a bad team. They have a lot of length in that lineup. And Poeltl is pretty impressive. Heck, they were ranked last week; KenPom has them currently at #38 (post our game). So a little perspective here. This isn't like a loss to Georgia Southern here.

So our early season includes wins vs (all numbers KenPom) #92 Yale, #65 G'Town, #55 VCU, #25 Indiana and losses vs #12 Kentucky, #38 Utah (without our captain). It's not spectacular, I agree. But it's also not anywhere near poor. It's not even near average.

Let's compare with our favorite team down the road. Wins vs #81 Kansas St, #64 Davidson, #52 Northwestern, #39 UCLA, #19 Maryland and losses vs #44 Texas, #68 Northern Iowa (without their captain).

Now UNC did win on the road at Maryland and lost on the road at Texas. But I think the point still holds. I wouldn't really say their resume is materially better than ours. Better, but not by much. Other than perhaps in program name value, the statistical metrics just don't have their wins as major upgrades over ours.

Would you say UNC is in any danger of not "looking good" to the selection committee?

I think we're fine.

- Chillin

The cheaters beat the defectors in chappaheeya.

[gumbomoop]

Why not? With Amile out, our guards and wings have to carry the load. Ingram got plenty of shots, Grayson got plenty of shots, Matt got plenty of shots, and Luke got plenty of shots. We certainly are not going to give more shots to Plumlee and Jeter. Derryck and the rest of the perimeter players are our offense right now, nothing wrong with any of them getting a lot of shots. As in any game, it's alway better when those shots go in and today that just wasn't happening.

As I commented a few days back in the Amile injury thread, K will likely use a 4-out-1-in system on O. Until Amile returns, and just possibly even after he returns, we will have 4 perimeter players on the court at all times. Today, because Chase was lost and because K failed to substitute for Marshall immediately after his 3d foul, we had 5 perimeter players on the court for much of the 2d half and OT.

Thus, as mo.st.dukie notes, our perimeter will be carrying the scoring load in every game at least until Amile returns, and probably through the NCAAT.

One minor disagreement: Luke did get some shots, but not quite enough. The discrepancy is not quite as stark as the stats imply, as he actually got more like 12 shots (instead of the official 9). Several times his shot on a drive fell off when he was fouled, and so didn't count as a shot. But the discrepancy in minutes was real. Of the main 6 players, his minutes barely topped Marshall's, and fell 10-18 minute short of everyone else's. He didn't even start the OT.

Not a big deal, but I'll guess that going forward (1) Luke's minutes will be comparable to those of the other 4 perimeter guys, and (2) the ball will be in his hands some to a lot more. I do not mean he'll be the PG. But today showed why he's much more than a 3-bomber. He's not the fierce force that is (a healthy) Grayson, nor the hyper-athlete that Brandon appears. But he is an athlete, smooth, crafty, slinky-without-looking-slinky. And real smart. Which quick-learner smarts will, guess (3), allow him to be a rather better defender and rebounder than he "looks." As today showed, yes?

Guess (4): until Amile returns, frequently, not just occasionally, every one of our 5 perimeter guys will play ~33-35 minutes. Don't know what might happen when the 3 frosh "hit the wall."

[jipops]

Generally speaking, I'd say your view here is pretty far down the pessimistic side of the spectrum. Which is fine. I just don't personally share it.

It was a frustrating loss. And there were a lot of things that we just didn't do well today. But there were some pretty heartening aspects as well - and others have mentioned them so I won't repeat here.

But also, Utah is not at all a bad team. They have a lot of length in that lineup. And Poeltl is pretty impressive. Heck, they were ranked last week; KenPom has them currently at #38 (post our game). So a little perspective here. This isn't like a loss to Georgia Southern here.

So our early season includes wins vs (all numbers KenPom) #92 Yale, #65 G'Town, #55 VCU, #25 Indiana and losses vs #12 Kentucky, #38 Utah (without our captain). It's not spectacular, I agree. But it's also not anywhere near poor. It's not even near average.

Let's compare with our favorite team down the road. Wins vs #81 Kansas St, #64 Davidson, #52 Northwestern, #39 UCLA, #19 Maryland and losses vs #44 Texas, #68 Northern Iowa (without their captain).

Now UNC did win on the road at Maryland and lost on the road at Texas. But I think the point still holds. I wouldn't really say their resume is materially better than ours. Better, but not by much. Other than perhaps in program name value, the statistical metrics just don't have their wins as major upgrades over ours.

Would you say UNC is in any danger of not "looking good" to the selection committee?

I think we're fine.

- Chillin

Since you bring up unc, they did just beat a ranked team...without their starting center. That is 2 more than we have done, which is zero. Now I haven't watched the cheats play but the argument over which is the better team could be an easy one. UCLA may not actually be much better than Utah, but they were beaten rather handedly. Sure the cheats could hose their #1 seed.

Utah's large bump in kenpom has a lot more to do with shutting down our previously #1 efficiency offense, which hardly looks sustainable at that level. Before our game, Utah's defense was above 100, yet we struggled to score. And for large portions of the game, especially when we went zone, our defense provided little resistance. I saw a Utah team that has an excellent center but is very poor at controlling posession. Remember Miami crushed these guys, though Miami looks pretty tough.

[jipops]

Did miss a few minutes in the 2nd half flipping back and forth, but...

You guys were lucky not to lose that game by double digits.

Honestly thought both teams looked pretty bad today. The level of play was not high by anyone's measure...and Utah's collapse in simple end game execution up 6 and the ball with 20 seconds in regulation was laughable.

Best to just move on from this one and hope it was an anomaly.

I'll have to take a shower after this but I actually agree with you. Utah's game management was awful. And ours wasn't much better with all the empty possessions at the crucial stretch of the game. This was not a pretty game to watch. Utah's unguarded half court violation, Duke's lack of ball movement and inability to finish, being beaten down the floor on numerous occasions. This just wasn't a high quality game. Grayson had one play where he drove and dished to Matt for an easy lay in after Utah committed. Would have been nice to see that more instead of weak attempts at the rim that were just swatted away.

Now there were a few beautiful plays from Ingram, Plumlee had one terrific tap out for a 3, and I did love how Kennard pursued the ball...on offense. But in all, this was poorly played as a group.

[Bob Green]

...we didn't have an effective front court...

With Jefferson injured, our front court has neither talent nor depth. More losses will occur while Jefferson's foot heals. Hopefully it heals quickly.

Coach K is the master at in season adjustments so I am not ruling out him working some magic over the next two games to have the team ready for conference play, but my expectation is seeing a whole lot of Brandon Ingram plus four guards on the court.

There are eight games in January - what will our record be in those eight games? 5-3 doesn't seem like a stretch at this point.

[Indoor66]

Did miss a few minutes in the 2nd half flipping back and forth, but...

You guys were lucky not to lose that game by double digits.

Honestly thought both teams looked pretty bad today. The level of play was not high by anyone's measure...and Utah's collapse in simple end game execution up 6 and the ball with 20 seconds in regulation was laughable.

Best to just move on from this one and hope it was an anomaly.

Wheat, we don't tend to fold when it gets tough, unlike some guys in argyle down the street.

[rocketeli]

With one starter sick and another out injured, you have to cut the offense some slack, but hopefully all the one-on-one, no team play will not continue. That leads to exactly what we saw- a lot of bad drives. IMHO Matt Jones is most effective when he sticks to the things he does well. MP3 may have many wonderful qualities, but he is very limited as a basketball player. We have a guard who is experienced, and a guard who has point guard skills, but unfortunately they are not the same guard.
Utah may be a no-so-good team, or had a bad game. Pootzle (sp? ) is a decent big man-clearly the coaching staff had scouted that he tends to use his arms too much to shove and push off and Duke did execute well getting him into foul trouble.
It is strange to see all that beef on the bench (Jeter, Obi, Robinson, Vrankovic) but no impact. I think Obi is injured and, as K likes to do, this info is not being broadcast (also even though a person is playing basketball their personal health history is confidential unless they themselves wish to reveal it, something we fans tend to forget) Rice ain't Duke and Obi isn't quick--but he still played Division I basketball with some effectiveness and this Duke team is not that fast paced. Will we see Robinson's redshirt end? Coaches only redshirt a player if they think he can improve or has promise--if a player is hopeless and won't ever be able to contribute, there is not point. And is Vrankovic that much worse than Plumlee that he couldn't help for a few minutes?
Coach K is the GOAT but sometimes does he have trouble trusting letting youth develop? Could the success of the team going forward rely on playing the new kids more and letting them learn and grow into their roles?

[ArtVandelay]

I would summarize this game as follows: Utah does their best to hand the game to Duke, but we refuse to accept their charity. Between the silly TOs, the 10-second violation, fouling Luke on a 3 in the waning moments, turning it over on the last inbound... I would have been going nuts if I was a Utah fan.

At the end of the day, you're not going to win many games when you shoot as poorly as we did, particularly on makeable shots/lay-ups. My main beef was the offensive game plan in crunch time, which appeared to be to have our guards repeatedly drive the ball into traffic in order to get blocked. Not clear why we refused to deviate. Ingram showed some flashes where he was demanding the ball ... not sure why we didn't feed our best player more down the stretch.

For my fellow New Yorkers out there, Ingram's missed layup kind of reminded me of Ewing's missed lay-up against the Pacers in the playoffs. Anyone else have that painful flashback?

[sagegrouse]

Statistics are evidence, and this was a game where the stat guy should scream -- "I got it! I got it!" -- at the top of his lungs.


Grayson and Derryck shot a combined 5 for 31 (16 percent).
Still, Duke outshot the Utes from three-point range, 29 percent to 17 percent.
Duke from two-point range? Hah! 31 percent, including tons of missed layups.
Utah shot 57 percent for inside the arc (mostly inside the paint).
Well, Duke outrebounded Utah on the offensive boards, 16 to 13. Nah! Duke missed 59 shots (that led to RBs) and garnered only 27 percent.
Utah missed only 35 shots (resulting in RBs) and grabbed 37 percent.
The main reason for the closeness of the score is that Duke had only five turnovers to Utah's 19.

One sentence summary: Duke took care of the ball and forced a bunch of TOs but couldn't make a shot. I expect we'll do better in the next game against a quality opponent, even with Amile sitting out.

[-jk]

Statistics are evidence, and this was a game where the stat guy should scream -- "I got it! I got it!" -- at the top of his lungs.


Grayson and Derryck shot a combined 5 for 31 (16 percent).
Still, Duke outshot the Utes from three-point range, 29 percent to 17 percent.
Duke from two-point range? Hah! 31 percent, including tons of missed layups.
Utah shot 57 percent for inside the arc (mostly inside the paint).
Well, Duke outrebounded Utah on the offensive boards, 16 to 13. Nah! Duke missed 59 shots (that led to RBs) and garnered only 27 percent.
Utah missed only 35 shots (resulting in RBs) and grabbed 37 percent.
The main reason for the closeness of the score is that Duke had only five turnovers to Utah's 19.

One sentence summary: Duke took care of the ball and forced a bunch of TOs but couldn't make a shot. I expect we'll do better in the next game against a quality opponent, even with Amile sitting out.

Nice stat work! Get well, and soon!, Grayson...

[Troublemaker]

Coach K is the master at in season adjustments so I am not ruling out him working some magic over the next two games to have the team ready for conference play, but my expectation is seeing a whole lot of Brandon Ingram plus four guards on the court.

We definitely need to see more production from the MP3/Chase combo at center than what they gave yesterday. In 32 combined minutes, they had 3 points, 6 rebounds (2 offensive), 7 fouls, 2 turnovers, 2 blocked shots. In particular, the rebounding numbers have to get better in a game with so many missed shots.

Duke will have winter break and then play two games we should win comfortably (Elon, LBSU) at home before conference play starts. Hopefully MP3 and Chase can use those two games to jump a level. I definitely do not want to see Brandon-plus-4-guards become the predominant lineup. A situational, close-out-the-game lineup, yes.



There are eight games in January - what will our record be in those eight games? 5-3 doesn't seem like a stretch at this point.

I know when Amile was healthy, I was thinking 7-1 for January, despite 5 road games.

Here's the Jan schedule:

@BC
@Wake
VaTech
@Clemson
Notre Dame
Syracuse
@NCSU
@Miami

So, now I'm hoping for 6-2 but 5-3 is a possibility like you said.

[Duke76]

Statistics are evidence, and this was a game where the stat guy should scream -- "I got it! I got it!" -- at the top of his lungs.


Grayson and Derryck shot a combined 5 for 31 (16 percent).
Still, Duke outshot the Utes from three-point range, 29 percent to 17 percent.
Duke from two-point range? Hah! 31 percent, including tons of missed layups.
Utah shot 57 percent for inside the arc (mostly inside the paint).
Well, Duke outrebounded Utah on the offensive boards, 16 to 13. Nah! Duke missed 59 shots (that led to RBs) and garnered only 27 percent.
Utah missed only 35 shots (resulting in RBs) and grabbed 37 percent.
The main reason for the closeness of the score is that Duke had only five turnovers to Utah's 19.

One sentence summary: Duke took care of the ball and forced a bunch of TOs but couldn't make a shot. I expect we'll do better in the next game against a quality opponent, even with Amile sitting out.


I thought we passed up too many 3 point shots to drive into the teeth of the defense….just not enough variety. Would like to see a shot distribution chart. Grayson passes up too many outside shots…I know Grayson was sick but he is much more effective, imo when he has more shots from the outside than at the rim. That frees up his ability to drive the lane cause they have to come out on him. His worst game was against Kentucky when he constantly drove the lane against a large team…kinda like this team.

Anyway, the team hung in there with him being sick and Amile out and hopefully it was a breakout game from Luke.

[Troublemaker]

Re: missed layups, we really only had 4 or 5 blown layups that were completely clean looks. That's 4 or 5 more blown layups than we want obviously (looking at you Matt and Derryck), but there were many more challenged layups (i.e. "rim-protection") and outright blocked shots that didn't go in. Utah's defense isn't good overall but one thing they do well is block shots and hold opponents to a low 2-pt FG%. Poetl is a lottery pick as much for his athleticism and rim protection as it is for his back-to-basket offensive skills. He's capable of chasing a driver down from behind and blocking his layup attempt, as we saw happened a few times. So, we do have to give Utah credit for their rim protection and not just blame it on us missing layups. At the same time, I would like to see our drivers make an extra pass more often. A kickout for an open 3 is better than a challenged layup attempt.

[Scorp4me]

How much time do you think it would take for you to make an assessment of Obi's abilities? 20 minutes of game time? Do you think K is keeping him off the court knowing that he could be a major contributor? The coaches see him every day. An announcer last week mentioned that his knees have been an issue. I don't think he is in a doghouse. I think he is not ready - likely hampered by something- and he is not a great option at this point.

I mean this honestly, did you even read my post? It'd be an honest mistake to make and I wouldn't be offended lol.

It's K's choice and as I mentioned I'm ok with that part. But if he isn't ready in our current situation based on what we already know of his college (not high school) experience then either he has regressed (which would be very disappointing) or there is something else like his knees (hence I wish we had more information because again).

I've not been an Obi fanboy (although I was excited to get an inside player with some actual size) or a Chase fanboy (although I thought we weren't given him enough credit when discussing our incoming recruits, looks like I was wrong) and the fact is the current situation sucks (all around, just sucks all around lol). But Chase is obviously struggling, Sean was impressive his freshman year...I don't think it's unreasonable to ask "wait...what?".

[moonpie23]

wondering about the last shot.....i know BI took it aggressively, but thornton and allen wide open on the perimeter...

he's gotta miss those clutch shots to be able to make those clutch shots....


bummer...

[Kfanarmy]

Did miss a few minutes in the 2nd half flipping back and forth, but...

You guys were lucky not to lose that game by double digits.

Honestly thought both teams looked pretty bad today. The level of play was not high by anyone's measure...and Utah's collapse in simple end game execution up 6 and the ball with 20 seconds in regulation was laughable.

Best to just move on from this one and hope it was an anomaly.

Both teams deserved to lose by double digits. Utah has a TO problem though, that I don't see going away. OTOH it isnt often Duke shoots so poorly.

One of the accidental positives of these in-season injuries is that the bench gets lengthened out of necessity. Hopefully that will work in their favor come March.

[dukelifer]

With Jefferson injured, our front court has neither talent nor depth. More losses will occur while Jefferson's foot heals. Hopefully it heals quickly.

Coach K is the master at in season adjustments so I am not ruling out him working some magic over the next two games to have the team ready for conference play, but my expectation is seeing a whole lot of Brandon Ingram plus four guards on the court.

There are eight games in January - what will our record be in those eight games? 5-3 doesn't seem like a stretch at this point.

Duke will need to manage these games and stay close. The D will need to be better. In the end- it will be about execution at the end of games. The execution in the last two minutes was very bad in this game. I am still thinking this was more about Grayson's illness than anything else, but we shall see.

[sagegrouse]

wondering about the last shot....i know BI took it aggressively, but thornton and allen wide open on the perimeter...

he's gotta miss those clutch shots to be able to make those clutch shots...


bummer...

I wanted us to try a three, but then I realized what K may have been thinking. With Poeltl out, the Duke team was superior to Utah and would likely have won in the 2nd OT.

[dalmatians98]

Obi played 4 minutes vs Georgia Southern and zero vs Buffalo in a blowout a few days before that. Watching him, I thought his legs seemed stiff and he seemed slow. I recognize that he's a big guy, but something was off.

His knees have been mentioned as a possible problem a few times here, and given what I saw during that game, that seems possible.

I think if he's healthy, Sean Obi comes off the bench. Especially now with Amile out, why wouldn't he? But I suspect he's not 100% and the short stint against Georgia Southern showed it.

[ChillinDuke]

Since you bring up unc, they did just beat a ranked team...without their starting center. That is 2 more than we have done, which is zero. Now I haven't watched the cheats play but the argument over which is the better team could be an easy one. UCLA may not actually be much better than Utah, but they were beaten rather handedly. Sure the cheats could hose their #1 seed.

Utah's large bump in kenpom has a lot more to do with shutting down our previously #1 efficiency offense, which hardly looks sustainable at that level. Before our game, Utah's defense was above 100, yet we struggled to score. And for large portions of the game, especially when we went zone, our defense provided little resistance. I saw a Utah team that has an excellent center but is very poor at controlling posession. Remember Miami crushed these guys, though Miami looks pretty tough.

Ranked team by what metric? The polls? As has been discussed here ad nauseam, the polls are so subjective and often indefensible. KenPom metrics are completely objective, making no judgments for things like the name of the program, the presumed difficulty of a schedule, or TV ratings/headlines. KenPom lists UCLA as a Top-40 team. To consider them ranked just because a poll says so seems silly - they are 8-4 after UNC, with losses to Monmouth, Kansas (a trouncing), and Wake Forest. They beat Louisiana Lafayette by 9 and Cal Poly by 5. Sure, they beat Kentucky. But the statistical metrics don't care about these team names. And the KenPom's statistical metrics say Top-40.

Plus, UCLA didn't have freshman Prince Ali yesterday. Not a monstrous loss, but they weren't at full strength; he's their 7th man and was the 36th-ranked prospect in the country (RSCI).

This is all to say, listen, I think UNC is pretty good at full strength. But I think we are too. The metrics back it up. The eye test more or less backs it up. We're young and we have a bunch of things to work on, but it's a wide open year. Kentucky has dropped two games. UNC has too. Now we have too. Kansas looks pretty decent. Obviously undefeated Michigan State looks good, but they too have played some tight games and look beatable. Maryland looked solid in their lone loss (to UNC) and hasn't dropped another. Villanova just dropped two of three, both losses by double digits. Undefeated Purdue just lost. They only other remaining high-major undefeateds are Oklahoma, Xavier, SMU, Iowa St, and South Carolina. Is anyone terrified of any of those teams? I'm sure they're good - but would we be more nervous to play any of them over any of the aforementioned teams?

In the context of the state of college basketball, generally, across the country, I just don't believe there is any solid evidence that we are lagging. We're in the hunt. And there are no clear-cut favorites.

We need Amile back. Everyone understands that. And in the meantime, I think we're fine.

- Chillin

[Channing]

No question Amile's loss shone through bright on defense and offense. But, I was thrilled to see Luke stop thinking and playing instinctually. He, Grayson, and DT have the ability to break down a defender and get to the rim. Grayson has shown the ability and willingness to then drop off the ball for an easy layup. Hopefully DT picks that skill up a bit as well. Between the three of hem and Ingram's ability to lope to the basket, I think offense will be fine. I think Grayson's illness magnified his importance. Just compare the offense from the Utah/UK games when he was off to the other games.

I am sure the team will learn a lot from this game film but will grow as a unit and come out guns blazing

[uh_no]

No question Amile's loss shone through bright on defense and offense. But, I was thrilled to see Luke stop thinking and playing instinctually. He, Grayson, and DT have the ability to break down a defender and get to the rim. Grayson has shown the ability and willingness to then drop off the ball for an easy layup. Hopefully DT picks that skill up a bit as well. Between the three of hem and Ingram's ability to lope to the basket, I think offense will be fine. I think Grayson's illness magnified his importance. Just compare the offense from the Utah/UK games when he was off to the other games.

I am sure the team will learn a lot from this game film but will grow as a unit and come out guns blazing

Amile's loss aside, I'm not any more worried than I was previously. The biggest factor, I think, was grayson's lackluster performance, which given the fact that he was reportedly sick, should be exceptional.

He was way off on his shots, both outside and near the rim (heck he nearly airballed a three on a kick out from a rebound of his previous three...if that doesn't scream FATIGUE, I don't know what does), with almost all of them short. He didn't seem to have some of the POP he often does...the flu can do that.

With him off his game, the effects propagated to the rest of the team. Our offense on the year dropped 2 points per 100...from ONE GAME...and that's not where you'd expect most of amile's impact against utah would have been on the defensive end ( or i would...).

Anyway, My thoughts were that the offense was abysmal, and much of that can be attributed to grayson being sick. (and chase...clearly not ready...)

bring on the ACC.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'll have to take a shower after this but I actually agree with you. Utah's game management was awful. And ours wasn't much better with all the empty possessions at the crucial stretch of the game. This was not a pretty game to watch. Utah's unguarded half court violation, Duke's lack of ball movement and inability to finish, being beaten down the floor on numerous occasions. This just wasn't a high quality game. Grayson had one play where he drove and dished to Matt for an easy lay in after Utah committed. Would have been nice to see that more instead of weak attempts at the rim that were just swatted away.

Now there were a few beautiful plays from Ingram, Plumlee had one terrific tap out for a 3, and I did love how Kennard pursued the ball...on offense. But in all, this was poorly played as a group.

I've watched enough of Duke's play so far this season to now feel comfortable saying that there are serious issues with this team if the expectation is that you want to get to the final four. Lack of quality depth is gonna kill you. This is not close to a top ten team at this point.

In my opinion, I've yet to see Duke play at a high level against a good team, win or lose. Even with everybody. Not trying to start a fight, just telling you guys what I think.

Missing Jefferson really hurts. Even before Amile went down, I was surprised he wasn't a focus of the offense more. He has some nice post scoring moves. It seemed he was regulated to whatever cleaning up he could do on the boards or an inside dish on a drive. I think he has learned enough post moves to have him as a go to guy down low for a sealed entry pass, and force the defense to cover and open up the wings... but I'd didn't see him get those passes very often.

Now with him out, Duke has no post offense...and not much hope to develope some this season. Too many good teams with strong post play out there to not have any and think it won't hurt.

Sure, Grayson has gone off against so so teams, and has Ingram,...Matt has been steady, and the freshman Kennard shows real promise. Plumlee is active and Thornton is going to be a good player...there's good, young, undeveloped individual talent. ..it's not a bad team at all from a talent perspective, and can beat some good teams on days the 3's fall and the refs let you drive at will and Duke can get to the line.

But I'd say you are missing the physically mature parts and balance to be elite this season and should be prepared to enjoy watching the young players get better and the occasional upset.

[Troublemaker]

Wheat, you clearly have a mad libs template, and each season you just fill it in with the player names on the current Duke roster.

[pfrduke]

Well, I hate to say it, but IMHO there were two clear coaching errors today. Normally when a player picks up foul #3, he will go to the bench so that a tired/frustrrated/overmatched player does not immediate foul again. Yet MPIII picked up foul #3 and #4 just 12 seconds apart.

Then at 5:15 of the second half, when Poeltl returned with 4 fouls, we needed to get MPIII back in immediately. Nope, had to call timeout less than a minute later - so a wasted timeout there.

(Cue the chorus saying God, er., K can't be criticized. And no, I don't have 1,000 coaching wins.)

Yeah, the rotation management with Marshall was weird. Every time Poeltl went out of the game, I was saying to myself "we should get Marshall out so he doesn't pick up needless fouls." Yet he picked up at least one, and maybe two, of his fouls while Poeltl was out. His usage should have been directly tied to Poeltl's so that he was available to check him as much as possible, particularly since Marshall's not so central to our offense that it would interrupt the flow if he sat for a bunch whenever their center went to the bench.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat, you clearly have a mad libs template, and each season you just fill it in with the player names on the current Duke roster.

:)

I liked Duke's post play last season...even tho I would have run more plays thru Okafor than coach K did.

[Saratoga2]

I thought we passed up too many 3 point shots to drive into the teeth of the defense….just not enough variety. Would like to see a shot distribution chart. Grayson passes up too many outside shots…I know Grayson was sick but he is much more effective, imo when he has more shots from the outside than at the rim. That frees up his ability to drive the lane cause they have to come out on him. His worst game was against Kentucky when he constantly drove the lane against a large team…kinda like this team.

Anyway, the team hung in there with him being sick and Amile out and hopefully it was a breakout game from Luke.

Grayson seemed exhausted out there and his shots were mainly short, even including from the the foul line. It appeared that Brandon also was tired and his shot from 3 point land was not going in. The only guy who seemed to hold his 3 point shot together was Luke. When it came to the end of OT, I thought Brandon should take the shot inside which he did, but ultimately missed. My alternative was to get it back to Luke for a three point shot. I had no faith that the others could hit a 3 at that point in the game.

[MChambers]

Wheat, you clearly have a mad libs template, and each season you just fill it in with the player names on the current Duke roster.

Gonna have to spork you for this. Wheat, like Ol' Roy, values 10 man rotations and low post offense.

I'm looking forward to Duke getting UNC two or more times this year!

[mattman91]

:)

I liked Duke's post play last season...even tho I would have run more plays thru Okafor than coach K did.

I like K's plan better. It worked.

[NSDukeFan]

As we always say:" live by the layup, die by the layup."

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat, like Ol' Roy, values 10 man rotations and low post offense.



That's very true. A lifetime of watching hoops has proven the value of depth and an inside game to me.

Hard to win a championship without strong inside play, and a bench when the surprises surface.

[NSDukeFan]

That's very true. A lifetime of watching hoops has proven the value of depth and an inside game to me.

Hard to win a championship without strong inside play, and a bench when the surprises surface.

...unless you like stats and math and realize that 3-point shooting can be a lot more efficient than post scoring. Depth is great to have for surprises and can lower risk, but doesn't necessarily affect a team's ceiling in the tournament as there are so many TV timeouts that a deep rotation isn't necessary. See Duke 2014-15. Granted, it is always nicer to have depth and post scoring than not, just not necessary (outside Chapel Hill.)

[MChambers]

That's very true. A lifetime of watching hoops has proven the value of depth and an inside game to me.

Hard to win a championship without strong inside play, and a bench when the surprises surface.
The 2010 NCAA champs had no low post offense and a shallow rotation; the 2015 champs had only one low post scorer (albeit a great one) and only eight scholarship players.

But you might have not watched much of either of those seasons, so you might not remember those teams!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The 2010 NCAA champs had no low post offense and a shallow rotation; the 2015 champs had only one low post scorer (albeit a great one) and only eight scholarship players.

But you might have not watched much of either of those seasons, so you might not remember those teams!

As I recall Zoubek gave you just enough in '10 to keep teams honest along with Singler/Thomas/Plumlee posting up on occasion too. This year I don't see anything close to that production possible inside.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

...unless you like stats and math and realize that 3-point shooting can be a lot more efficient than post scoring. Depth is great to have for surprises and can lower risk, but doesn't necessarily affect a team's ceiling in the tournament as there are so many TV timeouts that a deep rotation isn't necessary. See Duke 2014-15. Granted, it is always nicer to have depth and post scoring than not, just not necessary (outside Chapel Hill.)

Depth helps out in certain match ups for wins as the season goes along too. But I can agree, it's not as big a deal if the short rotation of say 6-7 players are all able to play at a high level consistently. But, I only see 3 players capable of that now, Grayson, Ingram and Jones.

If a team plans to be a predictable 3pt shooting, dribble driving team only...which it seems that is where this team is gonna hang its hat, you've got to have a strong rebounding team. I don't see that this year either, especially without Amile.

I'm OK with this team proving me wrong. I just watch the games.

[weezie]

...Ol' Roy, values 10 man rotations and low post offense...

And, per the DBR front page article, players like young brice johnson who let the profanity fly when ol'roy pulls him from a game. Off to the end of the bench, the corner so to speak, to think about what they've done and then hugs and kisses and back out on the court ya go! :cool:

It's impossible to even imagine something like that happening on K's bench...:confused:

[Wheat/"/"/"]

And, per the DBR front page article, players like young brice johnson who let the profanity fly when ol'roy pulls him from a game. Off to the end of the bench, the corner so to speak, to think about what they've done and then hugs and kisses and back out on the court ya go! :cool:

It's impossible to even imagine something like that happening on K's bench...:confused:

Roy benched him because he screamed a profanity on the court.

[norduck]

Roy benched him because he screamed a profanity on the court.

Link?

[Tripping William]

Roy benched him because he screamed a profanity on the court.

I'm guessing Johnson's mistake was not directing the dirty-wordy at a "not-so-nice" Bonnie Bernstein.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Link?


“I used some bad language and Coach was really pissed off at me about it, so he sat me for it,” Johnson said.

http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina/story/1624768-benching-ignites-career-effort

[OldPhiKap]

All Brice sad was "I don't give a s#!+ about Carolina" -- you would figure that Roy of all people would understand.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

All Brice sad was "I don't give a s#!+ about Carolina" -- you would figure that Roy of all people would understand.

That line has always been taken out of context by you guys having a little fun, but it was an insensitive question at the time.

It occurred when he was still the coach at Kansas right after an emotional (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvW0SGEqC5k) loss in the national championship game.

He loved his players and his time at Kansas. That sort of loyalty to his players is what many love about his coaching. We were lucky to convince him to take the UNC job, it had to be a hard decision for him.

[ChillinDuke]

I've watched enough of Duke's play so far this season to now feel comfortable saying that there are serious issues with this team if the expectation is that you want to get to the final four. Lack of quality depth is gonna kill you. This is not close to a top ten team at this point.

...

But I'd say you are missing the physically mature parts and balance to be elite this season and should be prepared to enjoy watching the young players get better and the occasional upset.

A top-10 team when? Traditionally? Or this year? I agree that this team wouldn't be top 10 perhaps even last year. But this year? It's a struggle to name 10 teams clearly better. As I said previously, I think (with Amile) we are safely in the mix.

The second part of your quote I agree with. With the glass-half-full spin being there are no "elite" teams and if the young players get better quick enough the whole story spins in our favor.

Appreciate your view, Wheat.

- Chillin

[jipops]

That line has always been taken out of context by you guys having a little fun, but it was an insensitive question at the time.

It occurred when he was still the coach at Kansas right after an emotional (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvW0SGEqC5k) loss in the national championship game.

He loved his players and his time at Kansas. That sort of loyalty to his players is what many love about his coaching. We were lucky to convince him to take the UNC job, it had to be a hard decision for him.

White tears.

[moonpie23]

That line has always been taken out of context by you guys having a little fun, but it was an insensitive question at the time.

It occurred when he was still the coach at Kansas right after an emotional (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvW0SGEqC5k) loss in the national championship game.

He loved his players and his time at Kansas. That sort of loyalty to his players is what many love about his coaching. We were lucky to convince him to take the UNC job, it had to be a hard decision for him.

he dripped an F-bomb in a news conference......i don't think K has ever done that...

[gumbomoop]

Depth helps out in certain match ups for wins as the season goes along too. But I can agree, it's not as big a deal if the short rotation of say 6-7 players are all able to play at a high level consistently. But, I only see 3 players capable of that now, Grayson, Ingram and Jones.

If a team plans to be a predictable 3pt shooting, dribble driving team only...which it seems that is where this team is gonna hang its hat, you've got to have a strong rebounding team. I don't see that this year either, especially without Amile.

I'm OK with this team proving me wrong. I just watch the games.

Several challenging, discussable/debatable points here.

I think your assessment of how many of Duke's players are now "consistently playing at a high level" is shared by a majority of EK posters, as most will want Kennard to replicate soon, and soon again, his sterling play against Utah before adding him to the list. But it's tricky, for I'll guess many were impressed enough yesterday that there's little question that Kennard is clearly capable of high level play, and regularly. Perhaps you and others are skeptical that Kennard will reach the "consistently high level" standard. We'll know more after the first couple of ACC games, both away, the second at a Wake team that is playing a challenging OOC schedule.

It's surely a very limited -- looks to be 6.5 -- rotation for awhile. Rebounding by committee, including any of Jones, Ingram, Kennard, Allen guarding an opposing 4 (even 5) because of constant, constant, most-plays-switching, will be a major issue. Especially at Wake, which looks to be a strong rebounding team. Devin Thomas has had some outstanding games against Duke, and they have a freshman big who's averaging 5.5 rebounds in only 14.7 mpg. Whoa. Need Chase that night.

I'm dubious that any Heel fan is disinterestedly "ok" when Duke wins lots of games. I just read the posts. And chuckle at hidden gems -- tantalizing little shivs -- such as "plans to be," "predictable," and "only." Tip of the hat.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Several challenging, discussable/debatable points here.

I think your assessment of how many of Duke's players are now "consistently playing at a high level" is shared by a majority of EK posters, as most will want Kennard to replicate soon, and soon again, his sterling play against Utah before adding him to the list. But it's tricky, for I'll guess many were impressed enough yesterday that there's little question that Kennard is clearly capable of high level play, and regularly. Perhaps you and others are skeptical that Kennard will reach the "consistently high level" standard. We'll know more after the first couple of ACC games, both away, the second at a Wake team that is playing a challenging OOC schedule.

It's surely a very limited -- looks to be 6.5 -- rotation for awhile. Rebounding by committee, including any of Jones, Ingram, Kennard, Allen guarding an opposing 4 (even 5) because of constant, constant, most-plays-switching, will be a major issue. Especially at Wake, which looks to be a strong rebounding team. Devin Thomas has had some outstanding games against Duke, and they have a freshman big who's averaging 5.5 rebounds in only 14.7 mpg. Whoa. Need Chase that night.

I'm dubious that any Heel fan is disinterestedly "ok" when Duke wins lots of games. I just read the posts. And chuckle at hidden gems -- tantalizing little shivs -- such as "plans to be," "predictable," and "only." Tip of the hat.

I like kennard's game. He's going to be a really good player as he ages. But he's a freshman without the exceptional talent of Ingram so his game is going to take time to develope. Ingram with all his skill is going to face big challenges too as the year goes on.

The future is good with this team, but there is very little margin for error this year. An off shooting night, foul trouble, or another injury will make things extremely difficult.

As far as being OK with Duke winning, I may be a different sort of UNC fan, but I'm alright with Duke being good...I just enjoy the seasons a little more when UNC is better :)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That line has always been taken out of context by you guys having a little fun, but it was an insensitive question at the time.

It was a completely horrid questions at the time. And, I respect his answer and understand hia very honest reaction.

It also happens to be one of the most amusing sound bites in the history of our rivarly.

How about this - we quit harping on Roy's precoaching quotable moment if UNC fans quit insisting that Tyler's bloody nose was intentional by G.

Right. I thought not.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It was a completely horrid questions at the time. And, I respect his answer and understand hia very honest reaction.

It also happens to be one of the most amusing sound bites in the history of our rivarly.

How about this - we quit harping on Roy's precoaching quotable moment if UNC fans quit insisting that Tyler's bloody nose was intentional by G.

Right. I thought not.

It was amusing.

I never thought G meant to bust his nose, but he sure did mean to intentionally hard foul him.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It was amusing.

I never thought G meant to bust his nose, but he sure did mean to intentionally hard foul him.

Sounds like we are at an impasse.

[OldPhiKap]

Sounds like we are at an impasse.

I have iocane powder if that helps.

I know no one needs the clip -- this is just how I start every work day: http://youtu.be/U_eZmEiyTo0

[jv001]

I've watched enough of Duke's play so far this season to now feel comfortable saying that there are serious issues with this team if the expectation is that you want to get to the final four. Lack of quality depth is gonna kill you. This is not close to a top ten team at this point.

In my opinion, I've yet to see Duke play at a high level against a good team, win or lose. Even with everybody. Not trying to start a fight, just telling you guys what I think.
Missing Jefferson really hurts. Even before Amile went down, I was surprised he wasn't a focus of the offense more. He has some nice post scoring moves. It seemed he was regulated to whatever cleaning up he could do on the boards or an inside dish on a drive. I think he has learned enough post moves to have him as a go to guy down low for a sealed entry pass, and force the defense to cover and open up the wings... but I'd didn't see him get those passes very often.

Now with him out, Duke has no post offense...and not much hope to develope some this season. Too many good teams with strong post play out there to not have any and think it won't hurt.

Sure, Grayson has gone off against so so teams, and has Ingram,...Matt has been steady, and the freshman Kennard shows real promise. Plumlee is active and Thornton is going to be a good player...there's good, young, undeveloped individual talent. ..it's not a bad team at all from a talent perspective, and can beat some good teams on days the 3's fall and the refs let you drive at will and Duke can get to the line.But I'd say you are missing the physically mature parts and balance to be elite this season and should be prepared to enjoy watching the young players get better and the occasional upset.

It sure seems to me that you're trying to pick a fight( bolded part of your post). Your comment regarding Amile not getting the ball in the low post is wrong. There have been times that he was fed the ball and he made some great moves to the basket. I believe Coach K has a little more experience coaching than you and I. Then the comment that Grayson has gone off against some so so teams is way off. He's had some very good games against good opposition. Then check out your comment regarding the refs letting Duke drive the ball and getting to the line. Man, you're asking for it. I have only two things to say: See unc's graduation rate of athletes. I'm wondering if all of your front court guys even go to class. I know the 2005 class didn't. As for old roy loving his players, I can't remember Coach K leaving some of his players on the court because he was afraid to stick around for a court storming. Yeh, not even walk-ons. I do have to agree with you about lack of depth hurting Duke while Amile is out but that's about it. I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and GoDuke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It sure seems to me that you're trying to pick a fight( bolded part of your post). Your comment regarding Amile not getting the ball in the low post is wrong. There have been times that he was fed the ball and he made some great moves to the basket. I believe Coach K has a little more experience coaching than you and I. Then the comment that Grayson has gone off against some so so teams is way off. He's had some very good games against good opposition. Then check out your comment regarding the refs letting Duke drive the ball and getting to the line. Man, you're asking for it. I have only two things to say: See unc's graduation rate of athletes. I'm wondering if all of your front court guys even go to class. I know the 2005 class didn't. As for old roy loving his players, I can't remember Coach K leaving some of his players on the court because he was afraid to stick around for a court storming. Yeh, not even walk-ons. I do have to agree with you about lack of depth hurting Duke while Amile is out but that's about it. I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and GoDuke!

My comment was based on the idea that Amile didn't seem to get the ball in the post "enough". I agree he has made some nice moves inside, he is a valid scoring option inside now, and think he should get more opportunities when he returns...which would help the wing game.

Duke is not alone having players try to take advantage of the new rules and drive hard at the rim to draw fouls. Defenders are at a huge disadvantage now days...it's become part of many teams offense to try to pressure the refs on drives and get to the line.

Some refs are gonna be more lenient than others on those calls. When they are not, you're going to want options.

[moonpie23]

It was amusing.

I never thought G meant to bust his nose, but he sure did mean to intentionally hard foul him.

clean block.....all ball........

[OldPhiKap]

clean block....all ball....

FWIW, put me down for an intentional smack in the face by G. I know I am in the minority on that point here. I think Hansborough had a legitimate beef there.

As for the current Duke squad -- we are obviously much better with a healthy Amile. We have a lot of talent in the back court but not much developed talent in the front court. Chase needs to step up, Brandon will get to show some of his versatility.

[77devil]

Hard to win a championship without strong inside play, and a bench when the surprises surface.

And yet Duke has managed to win 5 championships with Coack K and his short bench approach. Roy's one size fits all rotation has produced many UNC losses by putting players on the floor who are not able to compete effectively.

[whereinthehellami]

Allen being sick and Duke losing by only 2 points says it all.

Wheat, LOL at the trolling. I don't mind your shtick, I find it amusing. But I got one for you and the other light blue minions. "Cheaters"...in the end, that is all that matters.

[Indoor66]

Allen being sick and Duke losing by only 2 points says it all.

Wheat, LOL at the trolling. I don't mind your shtick, I find it amusing. But I got one for you and the other light blue minions. "Cheaters"...in the end, that is all that matters.

But...It's so TRUE - it must be painful....:cool:

[Wheat/"/"/"]

And yet Duke has managed to win 5 championships with Coack K and his short bench approach. Roy's one size fits all rotation has produced many UNC losses by putting players on the floor who are not able to compete effectively.

With the exception of '10, which was still pretty good, Duke had strong inside play.

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.

[77devil]

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.

Like 2001.

And a long bench is fine if you have the talent, not in and off itself as Roy coaches.

[vick]

Hey, rag on Wheat all you want, but the fact is our championship teams have included as forwards or centers:

'91-'92: Probably the most productive college center since Walton, and a likely hall-of-fame small forward
'01: A three-time defensive player of the year, plus one of the most efficient offensive players K has ever had
'10: FIVE future NBA frontcourt players, not including the best major-conference rebounder in the country
'15: A first-team all-American center, plus a lottery-pick SF/PF

I mean, even with Amile it looks like a large step-down from that caliber frontcourt. He's not wrong that it's awfully tough to win championships without more productive depth at forward and center than we have now.

[OldPhiKap]

With the exception of '10, which was still pretty good, Duke had strong inside play.

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.

Well, to be fair, the reason we have a short bench is because three players went pro after one year and one graduated. We lost our center and power forward, and brought back two bigs who have developed from essentially bench players their freshman years to established upperclassmen. We have freshmen (and a transfer sophomore) to fill the vacated spots, and of that group K obviously feels that Chase is the guy who can provide the biggest impact this year and therefore he is getting the minutes.

It's not like we have a ton of upperclass scholarship players sitting on the bench because K doesn't play them. He is playing Chase the major minutes at the four instead of Vronk (not a forward) and Obi (not quick enough to play the position at this point) and Robinson (redshirting). Or sliding Brandon down there and putting in three guards (including Kennard and Thornton, along with our returning backcourt players). So, I'm not really sure who K is "supposed" to be playing but isn't.

[COYS]

With the exception of '10, which was still pretty good, Duke had strong inside play.

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.

Wheat and DBR will always tangle over the value of post scoring. I get it because it picks at a sore spot for Duke fans when it comes to interior play (even if, historicaly, this is a silly thing for Duke fans to be concerned about). That being said, UNC's title teams in '05 and '09 featured superb outside shooting. The trio of Green, Lawson and Ellington all shot a high volume of threes and all were above 40%. Similarly, the '05 team shot better than 40% and even made a higher total of threes. The idea that UNC teams with good offenses are good because of post scoring is overblown. UNC's best teams have always relied on strong outside shooting as a important balancing tool, not to mention excellent scoring and distribution from the point guard position. Felton and Lawson were the engines of the offense in '05 and '09, and the inability to find a distributor as good at running a Roy Williams offense since Marshall has been a big reason why UNC's offenses have been good but not great over the past few seasons.

Similarly, the idea that Duke teams "live and die by the three" is also incredibly overblown. Duke takes a healthy number of threes, but not enough to make them extreme in DI basketball. There are usually somewhere between 50 and 150 teams who take more three pointers than Duke. Duke teams typically second tier to middle of the road in terms of how essential three pointers are for offense. One could make a convincing argument that Duke in '08 and '09 3-pointers were more important to Duke's offense due to personnel issues in the post, but the inverse argument could be made that a lack of three point shooting has really hindered recent UNC teams. Also, as has been discussed many times before, Duke teams tend to play to the strengths of their personnel. The 2013-2014 often had to play sophomore Amile or freshman Jabari at center . . . no wonder they took the most threes of any Duke team in the past five years. Meanwhile, UNC has had inconsistent post play over the past few seasons but has been unable to balance that with strong outside shooting.

While I doubt that the debate between Wheat and DBR will ever really end, I think it's important to note that while Coach K does seem to give his guards more of a green light to let it fly from distance and Roy seems to emphasize traditional post play a little bit more, both coaches' best teams tend to feature strong play both inside and out, whether that be post scoring coupled with strong perimeter scoring or, at least in the case of Duke, strong rebounding and defense coupled with good perimeter play. I personally think Wheat over values the efficiency of post scoring against a set half-court defense, especially if your primary post threat is a poor free throw shooter. Similarly, there is no doubt in my mind that Duke's '08 and '09 teams could have been Final Four caliber with stronger inside play to help clean up perimeter defensive lapses and grab a few extra o-boards to make the offenses more efficient. I feel the same way about this year's team, too, which is why we so desperately need Amile back. One need only look at our KenPom rankings to see evidence of that. Top 5 with Amile and a quick fall to 10 without. With Amile, Duke is a pretty complete team, though still inexperienced. Without Amile, a thin post rotation becomes a big liability and we also become far more inexperienced. That's why it's so important to get him back.

[MCFinARL]

FWIW, put me down for an intentional smack in the face by G. I know I am in the minority on that point here. I think Hansborough had a legitimate beef there.

As for the current Duke squad -- we are obviously much better with a healthy Amile. We have a lot of talent in the back court but not much developed talent in the front court. Chase needs to step up, Brandon will get to show some of his versatility.

I have watched that clip many times, and my firm conclusion is--only G knows for sure. I think a plausible argument can be made that he was going for the ball, perhaps without paying a lot of attention to what else he might hit along the way. But a plausible argument can also be made that he was seeking some pretty direct contract with Hansbrough. In any event, glad to hear Wheat, as a Heels fan, acknowledge that either way G was not intentionally trying to injure Hansbrough, for which I have never seen plausible evidence.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Like 2001.

And a long bench is fine if you have the talent, not in and off itself as Roy coaches.

Yea, like 2001.

You got Boozer back just in time for the tourney run...and it didn't hurt that you also had NBA talent along with him in Battier, Dunleavy, J-will and Duhon.

Just being realistic here, this team is not built like that.

Anyways, I see the troll card has been played. So, I guess I can't have an opinion without being labeled a troll by a select few.

I'll move on from this discussion.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yea, like 2001.

You got Boozer back just in time for the tourney run...and it didn't hurt that you also had NBA talent along with him in Battier, Dunleavy, J-will and Duhon.

Just being realistic here, this team is not built like that.

Anyways, I see the troll card has been played. So, I guess I can't have an opinion without being labeled a troll by a select few.

I'll move on from this discussion.

OH NOEZ PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US!

Seriously though, everyone is bashing you so much, I can't even tell what the argument is about. So, you are making the crazy assertation that when Duke has superb inside players, they win championships? And our retort is that when UNC hits threes they win championships?

This isn't ground-breaking action here, folks. I will even go so far as go say that if UNC hit more threes they would win even more games, and that if Duke had more inside studs, they would win more games.

Geez people. Conference play hasn't even started yet.

And really Wheat, criticizing K's rotational choices 8 months after a national championship?

[77devil]

With the exception of '10, which was still pretty good, Duke had strong inside play.

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.


Yea, like 2001.

You got Boozer back just in time for the tourney run...and it didn't hurt that you also had NBA talent along with him in Battier, Dunleavy, J-will and Duhon.

Just being realistic here, this team is not built like that.

As usual, you ignore the facts that don't fit your narrative. Your comment above was a general criticism of the short bench. 2001 was essentially a 6 man rotation until Boozer was hurt. Duke succeeded despite a short bench and a key injury including beating the cr*p out of UNC twice without Boozer

Most here have a recognized all season that this team, even without injuries, has issues. You do remember we lost 4 starters from last year.


Anyways, I see the troll card has been played. So, I guess I can't have an opinion without being labeled a troll by a select few.

I'll move on from this discussion.

Hey, it wasn't me but if you can't handle it?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

With the exception of '10, which was still pretty good, Duke had strong inside play.

Short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries.

You surely can't be surprised people are bristling when you suggest that Coach K has won five national championships based on "luck."

[camion]

You surely can't be surprised people are bristling when you suggest that Coach K has won five national championships based on "luck."

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. - Seneca

Yes Coach K is one of the luckiest (most prepared) people I know.

[sagegrouse]

You surely can't be surprised people are bristling when you suggest that Coach K has won five national championships based on "luck."

I'd accept the statement that "luck" figured in the Duke NCAA championships of 1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, and 2015. But "luck" also figured in NOT winning in 1986, 1994, 1999, 2004, 2011, and a couple of other years.

[Indoor66]

And the cheats have the corner on Final Four luck, i.e. 1982, 1993!

[howardlander]

I'd accept the statement that "luck" figured in the Duke NCAA championships of 1991, 1992, 2001, 2010, and 2015. But "luck" also figured in NOT winning in 1986, 1994, 1999, 2004, 2011, and a couple of other years.

I'd say 1999 more than any other year. Duke was just getting ready to put the hammer down on UConn when the power went out in the building. UConn got to gather their composure and Duke got cold.

Howard

[Kedsy]

I'd say 1999 more than any other year. Duke was just getting ready to put the hammer down on UConn when the power went out in the building. UConn got to gather their composure and Duke got cold.

Howard

I was in the building and I don't remember this (though it's possible my memory isn't what it used to be -- hard to say, I can't entirely remember...). At what point in the game did it happen?

[MChambers]

I don't remember it either, and I think I'd remember every possible excuse. I remember very poor officiating, for example!

[jv001]

Yea, like 2001.

You got Boozer back just in time for the tourney run...and it didn't hurt that you also had NBA talent along with him in Battier, Dunleavy, J-will and Duhon.

Just being realistic here, this team is not built like that.

Anyways, I see the troll card has been played. So, I guess I can't have an opinion without being labeled a troll by a select few.

I'll move on from this discussion.

Wheat are you pulling an old roy and heading for the dressing room early? :cool: You got this started, why not stay and finish it? GoDuke!

[TruBlu]

Wheat and DBR will always tangle


. . . I doubt that the debate between Wheat and DBR will ever really end

Your whole post is excellent, but these (partial) statements are golden.

[dukelifer]

You surely can't be surprised people are bristling when you suggest that Coach K has won five national championships based on "luck."

Well maybe he won two with some luck - but he is just taking after Dean Smith.

[oldnavy]

I have watched that clip many times, and my firm conclusion is--only G knows for sure. I think a plausible argument can be made that he was going for the ball, perhaps without paying a lot of attention to what else he might hit along the way. But a plausible argument can also be made that he was seeking some pretty direct contract with Hansbrough. In any event, glad to hear Wheat, as a Heels fan, acknowledge that either way G was not intentionally trying to injure Hansbrough, for which I have never seen plausible evidence.

I certainly do not blame Hansbrough for being upset, I know I would have been.

Despite his traveling and flopping AND the fact that he played for the Dark Side (sorry Sith Lords).... I could never develop a hatred for Hansbrough... he was just to darn goofy, and he played the game like you want your guys to play the game... all out.

I did develop an intense dislike of how the refs allowed him to play however.... But I never really blamed Hansbrough for it.

[oldnavy]

Well maybe he won two with some luck - but he is just taking after Dean Smith.

I think all teams have to have things break their way to win it all... we have also had our share of bad breaks.

But if folks insist on calling it "lucky", then I say that it is "better to be lucky than good".

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think all teams have to have things break their way to win it all... we have also had our share of bad breaks.

But if folks insist on calling it "lucky", then I say that it is "better to be lucky than good".

Exactly my point - luck plays into shots rolling in, bad officiating, brackets, injuries, opponent having a "can't miss" night, sickness, venues, etc. To pretend luck isn't involved is absurd. To equate playing a short bench to roulette is far more absurd.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat are you pulling an old roy and heading for the dressing room early? :cool: You got this started, why not stay and finish it? GoDuke!

OK, I'm happy to debate my points, but when a thread starts to become about me and somebody plays the troll card I try to move on because it just gets ugly and nobody enjoys that.

First off, my comment..."short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries" was meant as a blanket statement for any team playing with a short bench. Maybe I should have used the word "fortunate" instead, since some of you seem to be so sensitive that every comment I make is somehow a dig at Duke.

I think the 2001 team with its short bench and injury to Boozer was an anomaly to be able to go that far...It was a credit to the teams overall talent level...(which this team does not have). It was fortunate that Boozer made it back, because I doubt they could have won it all without him. Just like it was unfortunate that Kendall Marshall was injured in 2012. Those are the breaks every season. Every team can point to them, almost every year, good ones and bad...all part of the game.

Deeper talented teams generally are better able to withstand the bad breaks, and this Duke team is not deep...That was pretty much to point that I was trying to make, and I don't think I'm saying anything that most of you don't realize already.

Last thing...yes I realize you lost 4 starters from last season. Tyus Jones was the only "surprise" to leave, and many weren't that surprised he left.

You play what's on your bench, and the bench is thin this year. Why? I'm not sure. Coach K had to see it coming. I don't recall him missing on his main targets that he really wanted. Maybe it was just a mistake in talent evaluation with Obi and Jeter where he thought they'd be able to contribute more.

At any rate, I don't take the games that serious. I enjoy trying to break down the "why's" of the teams. When UNC has a down year, I just try to enjoy watching them try to get better...even if they lose.

There's always the next season.

[oldnavy]

OK, I'm happy to debate my points, but when a thread starts to become about me and somebody plays the troll card I try to move on because it just gets ugly and nobody enjoys that.

First off, my comment..."short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries" was meant as a blanket statement for any team playing with a short bench. Maybe I should have used the word "fortunate" instead, since some of you seem to be so sensitive that every comment I make is somehow a dig at Duke.

I think the 2001 team with its short bench and injury to Boozer was an anomaly to be able to go that far...It was a credit to the teams overall talent level...(which this team does not have). It was fortunate that Boozer made it back, because I doubt they could have won it all without him. Just like it was unfortunate that Kendall Marshall was injured in 2012. Those are the breaks every season. Every team can point to them, almost every year, good ones and bad...all part of the game.

Deeper talented teams generally are better able to withstand the bad breaks, and this Duke team is not deep...That was pretty much to point that I was trying to make, and I don't think I'm saying anything that most of you don't realize already.

Last thing...yes I realize you lost 4 starters from last season. Tyus Jones was the only "surprise" to leave, and many weren't that surprised he left.

You play what's on your bench, and the bench is thin this year. Why? I'm not sure. Coach K had to see it coming. I don't recall him missing on his main targets that he really wanted. Maybe it was just a mistake in talent evaluation with Obi and Jeter where he thought they'd be able to contribute more.

At any rate, I don't take the games that serious. I enjoy trying to break down the "why's" of the teams. When UNC has a down year, I just try to enjoy watching them try to get better...even if they lose.

There's always the next season.

It is tricky to know who is staying and who is going. I would guess that if we had not made a deep run last year, that Jones and Winslow would have returned... but they made/solidified their case for the NBA during the tournament run.

The fact that Coach K has embraced the OAD shows he is willing to adapt. I personally do not like the OAD reality, but it is what it is... I would rather have the problem of reloading than the problem of never being loaded! (stop it!, you know what I mean, loaded with ball players!! :p ).

[jimsumner]

OK, I'm happy to debate my points, but when a thread starts to become about me and somebody plays the troll card I try to move on because it just gets ugly and nobody enjoys that.

First off, my comment..."short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries" was meant as a blanket statement for any team playing with a short bench. Maybe I should have used the word "fortunate" instead, since some of you seem to be so sensitive that every comment I make is somehow a dig at Duke.

I think the 2001 team with its short bench and injury to Boozer was an anomaly to be able to go that far...It was a credit to the teams overall talent level...(which this team does not have). It was fortunate that Boozer made it back, because I doubt they could have won it all without him. Just like it was unfortunate that Kendall Marshall was injured in 2012. Those are the breaks every season. Every team can point to them, almost every year, good ones and bad...all part of the game.

Deeper talented teams generally are better able to withstand the bad breaks, and this Duke team is not deep...That was pretty much to point that I was trying to make, and I don't think I'm saying anything that most of you don't realize already.

Last thing...yes I realize you lost 4 starters from last season. Tyus Jones was the only "surprise" to leave, and many weren't that surprised he left.

You play what's on your bench, and the bench is thin this year. Why? I'm not sure. Coach K had to see it coming. I don't recall him missing on his main targets that he really wanted. Maybe it was just a mistake in talent evaluation with Obi and Jeter where he thought they'd be able to contribute more.

At any rate, I don't take the games that serious. I enjoy trying to break down the "why's" of the teams. When UNC has a down year, I just try to enjoy watching them try to get better...even if they lose.

There's always the next season.

Keep in mind that K fully expected Sulaimon and Ojeleye to be on this team at the fall 2014 signing date. By the time that changed, the pickings for the following spring were slim. So, Duke actually lost six players from the beginning of last season and three or four of those departures were unexpected.

[Billy Dat]

I was at the game, and I thought we played pretty well. We shot very poorly, and we had that stretch early where they got a bunch of uncontested dunks against our 2-3 zone, but other than that I liked what I saw. I loved the heart we showed making both a second half comeback and an overtime comeback. My guess is we'll wait years before we see us miss so many layups again. Either way, it was a very exciting game to watch.
I gotta say, Utah looked like a pretty good team to me. I was thinking during the game the Utes could make some noise in the NCAAT. I was especially impressed with Poeltl, Kuzma, and Bonam, all of whom not only played well today but also seemed like they're really good players.

I watched the game late Saturday knowing the outcome, and one never knows how that skews perception, but I agree that considering Amile being out and Grayson obviously being compromised I thought we played pretty well (we didn't shoot well). I also agree that Utah looked veteran and solid. Yes, they were sloppy down the stretch but they put on a CLINIC against our zones....


K's decision to start the game in zone was a huge mistake. It set the tone for the game. It communicates that we were playing from a position of weakness and passivity, afraid to be aggressive, and it carried over into the offense.

Defensively, they torched our zone. The 2-3 and 1-3-1 just didn't work. They got so many baskets in the paint and by running a player up the baseline from the corner at will. We couldn't defend in the zone for much of the game. We are obviously very thin in the front court right now and defensively, when we had Ingram, Jones, Thornton, Jeter, and Kennard out there at the same time, we suffered defensively. We need MP3 to play smarter and not commit unnecessary, weak fouls. Without him as a rim protector, we got sliced defensively today. When we get Amile back, this may not happen as much. We will be fine eventually but our team defense without Amile will need improvement in the meantime. Hopefully we continue to show the fight we played with for the majority of the game today.

The zone looks were terrible. We were much better in the man-to-man. Our defense right now is our rate limiter. We really have no problems on offense, even when we shoot horrendously we are still in the game. Our D is such a big question mark right now.


The story of the game to me was some lapses in performance offensively and defensively, really more mental mistakes. Yes, we had a horrendous shooting display today but I keep reading we missed a lot of "layups." I didn't see many uncontested layups we missed. In fact, we made most uncontested layups we shot. We missed out of rhythm, contested, early in the shot clock close in shots but not many layups. This was due to Utah speeding us up and giving us lanes to drive to the basket, especially Allen and Thornton. They were almost welcoming drives from Allen and Thornton. We had many drives by those two end in blocked shots down the stretch (Utah had NINE - 9 BLOCKS TODAY!) or tough, off balance shots from weird angles that they grabbed the rebound on. This is just the result of being very impatient offensively and of course missing Amile who we usually run the offense through in lots of offensive sets. We showed a lot of heart to come back in the 2nd half and take the lead as well as come back in OT, but in OT, Utah went totally brain dead by fouling us with the lead time and time again.

Why not? With Amile out, our guards and wings have to carry the load. Ingram got plenty of shots, Grayson got plenty of shots, Matt got plenty of shots, and Luke got plenty of shots. We certainly are not going to give more shots to Plumlee and Jeter. Derryck and the rest of the perimeter players are our offense right now, nothing wrong with any of them getting a lot of shots. As in any game, it's alway better when those shots go in and today that just wasn't happening.

I am not sure a missed lay-up is a mental mistake but we did leave a ton of points on the board missing very make-able shots. I actually thought we took pretty good shots for the most part.


Thornton and Jeter need significant improvement. Disappointed so far in their ability to transition to big boy basketball.

You guys are giving Derryck way too hard a time. In our last three games he has 13 assists and only 3 turnovers. That sounds like a distributor to me. He hasn't shot well over most of the season, but frankly neither has Luke for most of the season.


Utah had the best player on the court; Poeltl is really good. We really needed Amile in this one. Jeter wasn't the answer. Maybe we need to see more Vrank or Obi in the future; at least they have good hands and can hold onto the ball.

I think Thornton has been good, and Chase is just getting a chance to play now. He'll keep getting better, it's good that he's getting this chance otherwise he'd likely be nailed to the bench. If Vrank and Obi aren't better than him in practice, I don't think they should be playing. Not trying to be snarky, but what evidence do we have about Vrank or Obi's hands?


Even if we go 20-11 (9-9 ACC), we'll make the tournament. (And I find that scenario to be extremely pessimistic). As disappointing as our non-conference opponents have fared, Indiana is a likely tournament team that we have already beaten, and VCU and Georgetown are two other possibilities if they get better. (I know the Hoosiers played horribly at Cameron, but they're a likely tournament team that beat Notre Dame today on a neutral court.) And then over the course of winning 9 ACC games in this hypothetical, at least a couple of those wins should be against tournament teams. So, I wouldn't sweat making the tourney. I'm just hoping Amile returns soon enough that the team can re-gain chemistry playing with him for a tournament run.

I must admit that I started to worry about the NCAAs after this loss because of something K said at the end of 2012. Curry had been hurt all year and Kelly obviously got hurt. K shared, at the end of the season, that he worried about making the tournament all season long because he thought at any minute Curry could also be out. This team has a bit of fragility to it in that way. They really need to get a lot of Ws in this first weaker half of conference play and hopefully get Amile back. I am paranoid about early ACC losses that could snowball.


I blame Jimmy Fallon's sweater.

Why was Fallon sitting with Kevin White?

Other quick hitters:
-I haven't seen enough gushing about Ingram in this thread. Despite the loss, he expanded his game even more. How about that bullish take into the lane when the big thick Utah center (not Poeltl) bounced off him and he banked it in? How about some of those open floor finishes? Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton, on ESPN today, are comparing him to the Greek Freak and saying he's currently locked in at #2. All my optimism about us is tied into his continued growth.
-I thought Matt Jones played a great game. He's not at the same level, and he's different in key ways, but he really reminds me of Scheyer - that calm, don't-speed-me-up, penchant-for-hitting-big-shots competence

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

OK, I'm happy to debate my points, but when a thread starts to become about me and somebody plays the troll card I try to move on because it just gets ugly and nobody enjoys that.

First off, my comment..."short benches are fine, if you are lucky and can avoid injuries" was meant as a blanket statement for any team playing with a short bench. Maybe I should have used the word "fortunate" instead, since some of you seem to be so sensitive that every comment I make is somehow a dig at Duke.

I think the 2001 team with its short bench and injury to Boozer was an anomaly to be able to go that far...It was a credit to the teams overall talent level...(which this team does not have). It was fortunate that Boozer made it back, because I doubt they could have won it all without him. Just like it was unfortunate that Kendall Marshall was injured in 2012. Those are the breaks every season. Every team can point to them, almost every year, good ones and bad...all part of the game.

Deeper talented teams generally are better able to withstand the bad breaks, and this Duke team is not deep...That was pretty much to point that I was trying to make, and I don't think I'm saying anything that most of you don't realize already.

Last thing...yes I realize you lost 4 starters from last season. Tyus Jones was the only "surprise" to leave, and many weren't that surprised he left.

You play what's on your bench, and the bench is thin this year. Why? I'm not sure. Coach K had to see it coming. I don't recall him missing on his main targets that he really wanted. Maybe it was just a mistake in talent evaluation with Obi and Jeter where he thought they'd be able to contribute more.

At any rate, I don't take the games that serious. I enjoy trying to break down the "why's" of the teams. When UNC has a down year, I just try to enjoy watching them try to get better...even if they lose.

There's always the next season.

All well and good. What I don't understand is what anyone is disagreeing about here. Are we really debating "it is good to have a talented and experienced bench" versus "it is good to have 3 point shooters?" Not sure I see those as divergent points.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Keep in mind that K fully expected Sulaimon and Ojeleye to be on this team at the fall 2014 signing date. By the time that changed, the pickings for the following spring were slim. So, Duke actually lost six players from the beginning of last season and three or four of those departures were unexpected.

Good point. I hadn't considered them.

[COYS]

Keep in mind that K fully expected Sulaimon and Ojeleye to be on this team at the fall 2014 signing date. By the time that changed, the pickings for the following spring were slim. So, Duke actually lost six players from the beginning of last season and three or four of those departures were unexpected.

I was about to bring up this same point. This is so true. It's hard to complain given how last season ended, but this past year was pretty much the worst possible scenario in terms of roster turnover. Every person who was even slightly at risk for going pro went pro, Semi transferred, and Rasheed was dismissed. Now Amile is injured. Semi could have really helped out in the absence of Amile with his size and strength. An improved Rasheed with his head on his shoulders (which is what the team was expecting) would've meant that Derryck would still be improving in high school. Again, I'm not going to complain about anything because the bulk of the turnover was the result of all three of last year's frosh meeting and exceeding expectations. But this year's team would look quite different with sophomore Tyus, senior Rasheed, and junior Semi.

[sagegrouse]

I watched the game late Saturday knowing the outcome, and one never knows how that skews perception, but I agree that considering Amile being out and Grayson obviously being compromised I thought we played pretty well (we didn't shoot well). I also agree that Utah looked veteran and solid. Yes, they were sloppy down the stretch but they put on a CLINIC against our zones...

I also watched on delay, but I didn't know the outcome. Towards the end of the overtime, when Duke got the ball one last time, I was pulling for a three-point shot, because there were only three minutes left in the recording, and I wouldn't get to see the second OT.






Why was Fallon sitting with Kevin White?

Well, he was obviously invited to sit there. It wasn't an ESPN/network thing 'cuz Fallon is on NBC.

[Kedsy]

Well, he was obviously invited to sit there. It wasn't an ESPN/network thing 'cuz Fallon is on NBC.

I don't know what his connection is or if he even has one, but Fallon seemed to be rooting hard for Duke the whole game.

[jv001]

I watched the game late Saturday knowing the outcome, and one never knows how that skews perception, but I agree that considering Amile being out and Grayson obviously being compromised I thought we played pretty well (we didn't shoot well). I also agree that Utah looked veteran and solid. Yes, they were sloppy down the stretch but they put on a CLINIC against our zones...




The zone looks were terrible. We were much better in the man-to-man. Our defense right now is our rate limiter. We really have no problems on offense, even when we shoot horrendously we are still in the game. Our D is such a big question mark right now.




I am not sure a missed lay-up is a mental mistake but we did leave a ton of points on the board missing very make-able shots. I actually thought we took pretty good shots for the most part.






I think Thornton has been good, and Chase is just getting a chance to play now. He'll keep getting better, it's good that he's getting this chance otherwise he'd likely be nailed to the bench. If Vrank and Obi aren't better than him in practice, I don't think they should be playing. Not trying to be snarky, but what evidence do we have about Vrank or Obi's hands?



I must admit that I started to worry about the NCAAs after this loss because of something K said at the end of 2012. Curry had been hurt all year and Kelly obviously got hurt. K shared, at the end of the season, that he worried about making the tournament all season long because he thought at any minute Curry could also be out. This team has a bit of fragility to it in that way. They really need to get a lot of Ws in this first weaker half of conference play and hopefully get Amile back. I am paranoid about early ACC losses that could snowball.



Why was Fallon sitting with Kevin White?

Other quick hitters:
-I haven't seen enough gushing about Ingram in this thread. Despite the loss, he expanded his game even more. How about that bullish take into the lane when the big thick Utah center (not Poeltl) bounced off him and he banked it in? How about some of those open floor finishes? Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton, on ESPN today, are comparing him to the Greek Freak and saying he's currently locked in at #2. All my optimism about us is tied into his continued growth.-I thought Matt Jones played a great game. He's not at the same level, and he's different in key ways, but he really reminds me of Scheyer - that calm, don't-speed-me-up, penchant-for-hitting-big-shots competence

I agree we really aren't giving Ingram enough praise. He's really turned it on and looks like a top 5 Draft pick. I went for my 3 month visit with my knee surgeon this morning and I wore my Duke jacket. He's a Wake Grad but he sort of likes Duke as well. He was really praising Brandon and talking about his play of late. Bad when I hear more praise thrown Brandon's way from Wake fans then Duke fans. GoDuke!

[Saratoga2]

Brandon is certainly an all around player with great skills and he is probably the hardest guy on our team for the opponents to stop from scoring, since he is so versatile. What I think happens to him and to other of our players is that they get tired because they are playing so many minutes, especially Brandon. We had many empty possessions at the end of game and took many shots that were just not falling. I would guess fatigue played a significant part in those. The only guy on the team who was still scoring efficiently at the end of game was Luke.

Other Thought:

Comparison of players:

MP3 Vrank
Height 7' 7'
Weight 250 270
Athleticism Good Appears to be good
Hands Fair ?
Defense Fair ?
Offensive Moves Dunk Appears to have possibilities
Court Awareness Fair ?

I give MP3 and A for trying very hard despite his limits as a player. Clearly the coaches think that Vrank's questionable areas need further development, but it seems that Vrank has the potential to be as good or better than MP3. The old saw that you can't teach size applies to him.