Star Wars - Spoilers here! BE WARNED!!!

[JasonEvans]

So, this will be the thread for a spoiler discussion of the film.

I strongly, strongly, strongly recommend folks stop reading if they have not seen the film. I'm serious. It is a ton, ton, ton better without spoilers.

You have been warned...

-Jason "posts with spoilers will follow" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Comments about the plot --

1) I mostly love that JJ paid such an homage to the original. While watching the film I did not mind it at all, but as I get further and further from the film I am a little bothered at how similar the plots were. I mean the story for both of them was:

Secret information is stored in a cute, beeping driod
The droid is stranded on a desert planet and eventually captured by scavengers
The droid is rescued and adopted by a young adult orphan
The orphan is chased by the Empire and escapes the planet aboard the Millenium Falcon
The orphan meets Han Solo and Chewie and convinces them to take the droid and its info to the rebellion/resistance
The bad guys are led by a power-mad leader who we only see in hologram
His most powerful minion is a Force-wielding baddie who wears all black and has a mask covering his face and distorting his voice
The bad guys have developed a giant weapon capable of destroying entire planets
The resistance launches a raid to stop the giant weapon before it can wipe out their planet
The giant weapon is really only vulnerable to attack in one very specific spot
At a key point in the battle, one of the good guys pilots his X-wing fighter down a trench with lasers blasting him on all sides so he can hit the spot that will blow up the giant weapon

Sure, I am being a little simplistic at times and am glossing over some other plot points, but you can see how similar they are. I would hope and expect Rian Johnson to take us in new directions. This was fine for a restart of the franchise, but lets get to some new directions going forward shall we?

2) I'm a bit bothered by Kylo Ren (side note, the fact that his given name is Ben is a really nice touch) and his mastery of the Force. Early in the film, he is shown to be truly formidable. He freezes a laser blast in mid-air!! How amazing was that?!?! But, by the end of the film he is being hit by a laser blast from Chewie (maybe he was distracted, having killed his father and all) and then he struggles to defeat two rank amateurs in a light saber battle. Maybe the movies will fix this by having us see him train a lot with Supreme Leader Snoke in the next film, getting him up to speed on being an even more lethal user of the Force. But, we basically left things with Rey being more powerful than him even though she had never been trained and basically only figured out she could use the Force at all about an hour before she faced Ren. And on what planet can Finn even last for 10 seconds in a light saber battle with Ren? I thought the light saber fights didn't look all that good either. I don't need the CGI enhanced mess that was the prequels, but these just didn't seem all that good. Lots of obvious thrusting that just looked awkward. I did like the hilt burning through Finn's shoulder though.

3) Han had to die. I knew it was coming. Still, it was really emotional for me and I felt it both times I saw the film. I love that he died trying to bring his son back from the dark side. He truly was willing to do anything for his child, even give up his own life. Ren's speech right before he kills Solo, where he talks about his struggle, is supposed to seem like he is contemplating coming to the light and then revealed to actually be his struggle to fully embrace the dark side ("I know what I have to do," is a reference to him having to kill his father to prove to Snoke that he is a Dark Lord). Despite what that scene would seem to set up, I am pretty sure Ren will come back to the light at some point, just like his grandfather did.

4) I thought the "map to Luke" was a silly plot device. Ummm, who made the map? Did Luke make it? Why were portions of it broken and separate and how does that even work? Why is Luke hanging out in the middle of nowhere (the first Jedi Temple) without any communications with the outside world? While Luke has been praying or whatever, billions and billions of people are dying. They really need to redeem Luke, as crazy as that sounds, in the next film.

5) R2D2 is in low-power mode and they can't get information out of him?!?! Ummm, what kind of technology are you using that would allow that. His memory circuits should be very easy to remove and tap into. Plug him in to an outlet for goodness sake and re-charge him! Just a silly plot device. And why did he suddenly decide to start working again? Was he just waiting for Han to die? Ughh... bad!

6) Now that we have Finn cracking great jokes, can we just flush C3PO? He's beyond useless and just plain annoying. What is with the red arm? Will that be explained and does anyone care? Was it only there so he could crack the joke to Solo, "You probably did not recognize me with the red arm..."

7) So, the movie never articulated it, but I don't think Ren and Snoke are Sith. I think they are something brand new. What's more, I love that Ren seems to be taking the opposite course of a Jedi, who are told to release their feelings and remain calm. Ren is all about his emotions. The scene where he gets bad news and then destroys the computer panel in front of him with his light saber to then say, "Anything else?" was awesome and hysterical. The storm troopers turning around when they see Ren on the warpath was also great.

8) Anyone want to bet on the actual size of Snoke? I doubt he will really be 30+ feet tall. I'm guessing that is just a projection designed to make him look more imposing. I will be really disappointed though if he turns out to be Yoda-sized. That would be a cheap joke.

-Jason "I will have much, much more soon!" Evans

[Olympic Fan]

So just to be clear ... Kylo Ren is NOT Luke Skywalker?

[JasonEvans]

So just to be clear ... Kylo Ren is NOT Luke Skywalker?

No, not at all. Kylo is Han and Leia's son. We see his face a few times and he is not Luke.

Kylo is very strong in the force and was being trained by Luke to be a Jedi (apparently, along with some other folks) when Kylo turned to the Dark Side. I think it is implied that he slaughtered some of the fellow trainees. He became the servant/apprentice of Snoke and leader of the Knights of Ren. He pretty much worships his grandfather, Darth Vader.

It is stated that Luke was despondent over Kylo's betrayal and that Luke has fled to some mystery place to contemplate what he did wrong in the training. They talk about Luke searching for the First Jedi Temple, but it is not clear that he finds it.

I won't tell you more about Luke if you have not seen the movie.

-Jason "Kylo's given name is Ben Solo and when we hear him called that for the first time, I almost started to cry... Yes, I am lame" Evans

[fuse]

Nice summary Jason.

I enjoyed it. Hard to say given the (intentional) homage/ storyline, I wonder how it will hold up over time.

Prior to the movie, I was convinced the alternate to Luke is Kylo Ren would be Kylo Ren and Rey are brother and sister. Maybe but I doubt Leia would not recognize her daughter. Could Daisy Ridley's similarity to Natalie Portman and a young Carrie Fisher just be a red herring?

The most outrageous thing I heard leaving the theatre was two teenage boys speculating Finn is Mace Windu's son.

I am assuming Finn will recover since the next generation cast is really only Rey and Finn. Poe Dameron is Wedge Antilles, so I doubt much of this storyline will feature him.

[BLPOG]

Comments about the plot --

1) I mostly love that JJ paid such an homage to the original. While watching the film I did not mind it at all, but as I get further and further from the film I am a little bothered at how similar the plots were. I mean the story for both of them was:

Secret information is stored in a cute, beeping driod
The droid is stranded on a desert planet and eventually captured by scavengers
The droid is rescued and adopted by a young adult orphan
The orphan is chased by the Empire and escapes the planet aboard the Millenium Falcon
The orphan meets Han Solo and Chewie and convinces them to take the droid and its info to the rebellion/resistance
The bad guys are led by a power-mad leader who we only see in hologram
His most powerful minion is a Force-wielding baddie who wears all black and has a mask covering his face and distorting his voice
The bad guys have developed a giant weapon capable of destroying entire planets
The resistance launches a raid to stop the giant weapon before it can wipe out their planet
The giant weapon is really only vulnerable to attack in one very specific spot
At a key point in the battle, one of the good guys pilots his X-wing fighter down a trench with lasers blasting him on all sides so he can hit the spot that will blow up the giant weapon

Sure, I am being a little simplistic at times and am glossing over some other plot points, but you can see how similar they are. I would hope and expect Rian Johnson to take us in new directions. This was fine for a restart of the franchise, but lets get to some new directions going forward shall we?

2) I'm a bit bothered by Kylo Ren (side note, the fact that his given name is Ben is a really nice touch) and his mastery of the Force. Early in the film, he is shown to be truly formidable. He freezes a laser blast in mid-air!! How amazing was that?!?! But, by the end of the film he is being hit by a laser blast from Chewie (maybe he was distracted, having killed his father and all) and then he struggles to defeat two rank amateurs in a light saber battle. Maybe the movies will fix this by having us see him train a lot with Supreme Leader Snoke in the next film, getting him up to speed on being an even more lethal user of the Force. But, we basically left things with Rey being more powerful than him even though she had never been trained and basically only figured out she could use the Force at all about an hour before she faced Ren. And on what planet can Finn even last for 10 seconds in a light saber battle with Ren? I thought the light saber fights didn't look all that good either. I don't need the CGI enhanced mess that was the prequels, but these just didn't seem all that good. Lots of obvious thrusting that just looked awkward. I did like the hilt burning through Finn's shoulder though.

3) Han had to die. I knew it was coming. Still, it was really emotional for me and I felt it both times I saw the film. I love that he died trying to bring his son back from the dark side. He truly was willing to do anything for his child, even give up his own life. Ren's speech right before he kills Solo, where he talks about his struggle, is supposed to seem like he is contemplating coming to the light and then revealed to actually be his struggle to fully embrace the dark side ("I know what I have to do," is a reference to him having to kill his father to prove to Snoke that he is a Dark Lord). Despite what that scene would seem to set up, I am pretty sure Ren will come back to the light at some point, just like his grandfather did.

4) I thought the "map to Luke" was a silly plot device. Ummm, who made the map? Did Luke make it? Why were portions of it broken and separate and how does that even work? Why is Luke hanging out in the middle of nowhere (the first Jedi Temple) without any communications with the outside world? While Luke has been praying or whatever, billions and billions of people are dying. They really need to redeem Luke, as crazy as that sounds, in the next film.

5) R2D2 is in low-power mode and they can't get information out of him?!?! Ummm, what kind of technology are you using that would allow that. His memory circuits should be very easy to remove and tap into. Plug him in to an outlet for goodness sake and re-charge him! Just a silly plot device. And why did he suddenly decide to start working again? Was he just waiting for Han to die? Ughh... bad!

6) Now that we have Finn cracking great jokes, can we just flush C3PO? He's beyond useless and just plain annoying. What is with the red arm? Will that be explained and does anyone care? Was it only there so he could crack the joke to Solo, "You probably did not recognize me with the red arm..."

7) So, the movie never articulated it, but I don't think Ren and Snoke are Sith. I think they are something brand new. What's more, I love that Ren seems to be taking the opposite course of a Jedi, who are told to release their feelings and remain calm. Ren is all about his emotions. The scene where he gets bad news and then destroys the computer panel in front of him with his light saber to then say, "Anything else?" was awesome and hysterical. The storm troopers turning around when they see Ren on the warpath was also great.

8) Anyone want to bet on the actual size of Snoke? I doubt he will really be 30+ feet tall. I'm guessing that is just a projection designed to make him look more imposing. I will be really disappointed though if he turns out to be Yoda-sized. That would be a cheap joke.

-Jason "I will have much, much more soon!" Evans

Jason, I largely had the same criticisms, but I think they are minor and I can live with them. Some thoughts:

1. Definite similarities, but mitigated by factors like (a) following an epic journey archetype; (b) if you include some of the same characters, they are bound to meet each other; (c) crazy fascists like the idea of building super weapons (see History Channel documentaries about WWII Germany); (d) Ren is obsessed with Vader and mimicking him; (e) even though Disney de-canonized a lot, presumably the Sith Rule of Two is in play; (f) destroying any part of the energy control system of a machine has a good chance of resulting in catastrophic failure.

2. I'm willing to buy that Ren was distracted when Chewie shot him. In addition to that, a lightsaber isn't any good against certain types of blasters. The Imperials made a gun to kill Jedi that shot three blasts at once (try deflecting a plane with a line) and some weapons have too powerful a blast. Given the emphasis they placed on the bowcaster in this film, I'm willing to bet that Chewie's is in the latter category. Once Ren was fighting Finn he was injured, but still dispatched Finn relatively quickly. In Rey's case I think the answer is two-fold: Ren is, presumably, not very practiced at dueling with lightsabers (how many Jedi are there to duel?). Second, Rey is experienced at fighting with her staff, and part of a force user's talent in sword-fighting comes from the force - it is plausible that Rey could hold her own against an injured Kylo Ren.

3. I agree but hope he does not return to the light. To me it would defeat the purpose of the scene and ruin the character.

4. Absolutely agree the map was a silly plot device; even as "we must find Luke" it would have worked better. However, it might turn out to be OK if it is adequately explained in a later film as part of a plan set into motion by Luke. That seems plausible, given that Poe's contact on Jakku seems to have definitely been in the know where Skywalkers are concerned (Who was that guy? The only thing that came to mind for me was Bail Organa but I thought he was gone with Alderaan; maybe he was an Alderaanian refugee? If Rey is related to the Skywalkers, perhaps he observed her from afar, as Obi-Wan once did with Luke?). Part of Luke's seclusion is explained by his failure with Kylo Ren; I have a theory about what he is doing and if I'm right I think it would make a lot of sense and connect the three trilogies well.

5. I agree, low-power mode was a very silly plot device. Hopefully (again) that can be mitigated with some explanation of Luke's greater plan in the next film. As for retrieving the information, there is no reason that would be possible if Luke used good encryption and other safeguards. The dumb thing is just "low power mode." The best explanation I can come up with is that Luke said, "I need you to keep this safe, Artoo. You usually get yourself into a lot of trouble; maybe just lay low and be an electronic cinder block for a while?" I think that's plausible, but why am I as the viewer having to come up with it?

6. I've always hoped Chewbacca would follow through on Han's implied threat and rip Threepio's arms off. Maybe that's what happened?

7. I think they're Sith, but we'll see. I also greatly enjoyed the treatment of Kylo's temper.

8. My guess is that Snoke will be slightly-larger than human. Given what has been released about certain retained extended universe canon and the manner in which Starkiller Base was powered, as well as the seemingly sudden appearance of a very powerful Sith, there is actually a potentially good explanation of Snoke's background (and it would make him non-Sith). Unfortunately his character's physical appearance seems to negate that theory, but I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.

In summary, I can't endorse every choice made in the film and certainly I have explicitly explained away some faults. Nonetheless, the fact that I am able to explain them away seems to me to be a very positive indication of the film's overall quality. I certainly can't do that for the PT. Only at a couple points would I really say, "Well that's dumb," and I could say that even in the OT (e.g. Making the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs? Luke playing with a model T-16 Skyhopper on Tatoonie then remarking to Biggs during the Death Star mission briefing that they used to pilot them and shoot indigenous wildlife? Yeah, right.). It was flawed but still very good overall, IMO. I will almost certainly see it again in a few days, and perhaps my perspective will be a bit more refined upon a second viewing.

[Wander]

Awesome!

I was worried that the movie would be too much like Episode 4. I agree with JE - it was done so well that I give it a pass, but I don't want to see something similar for 8 and 9. There were also enough differences for me. In particular, the fact that Rey wanted to stay on her desert planet (sharp contrast to Luke in 4), not waiting until 8 to reveal the identity of the bad guy, and letting Kylo Ren have scenes without his mask made me really happy. Kylo Ren's fits of rage are great, and while it is hard (impossible?) to top Vader, he's well on his way to at worst being the 2nd best villain in the Star Wars universe.

The death scene is one of the best scenes in the Star Wars series. The fact that it hits as well as it does even though everyone knows what's coming is great.

I have one complaint that I know only .00001% of the moviegoing population will care about. The first novels I ever read growing up not-as-a-school-assignment were the Thrawn trilogy, so they have an emotional attachment for me. In it, Han and Leia's kids are born - twins named Jacen and Jaina. Jacen eventually grows up to be a bad guy, and Jaina eventually becomes the main Jedi hero to save everyone from her evil twin brother. I know none of the books are canon anymore, and given that a lot of them were not of high quality, I know it's a good thing that we're moving on. But even if the plot is entirely different, the sequel trilogy is clearly telling the story of Jacen and Jaina (I assume everyone agrees there's a 90%+ chance the the main hero is also Han and Leia's child, right?) Would it really have been THAT big a deal to name him Jacen? It would have been a great nod.

A more minor complaint... I know the prequels are not well-loved, but Coruscant was a great addition. If we don't ever see it, that's just weird.

Great all around, though.

[luburch]

Best Star Wars ever and I'm not sure it's even close.

The map to Luke was a little hokey, but I' hoping for an explanation in the next films.

My biggest issue, which Jason touched on and we have seen multiple times throughout the Star Wars series, is how Fin and Rey were able to duel with Kylo Ren. Kylo is a trained Sith (Not sure why Rena and Snoke would be something other than Sith, btw??) so he should destroy either in a duel. Multiple times throughout the movie series people with little to no training are able to hold off/beat people with far significant experience.

Also I'm not sure Ren's fits of rage are all tat new. Vader used to have them as well. Sith use emotions, Jedi do not.

Amazing film. Can't wait to see it again.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I really enjoyed it, for fans it was nearly as perfect as it could be. Heres my highlights and things they could have done better list:

Best Parts:

-The X-wing vs Tie Fighter battles were the best that they've ever been. My favorite parts of the movies have always been the space battles. When Poe came back on screen leading a squadron of X-Wings I got goosebumps.

-I actually found the lightsaber battles to be enjoyable, they were choppy, unskilled and hectic and I think that's exactly what they were going for. None of the force wielding characters were full on Jedi or Sith lords so a hectic desperate lightsaber battle is exactly the right way to play it. Also there is something unnatural feeling about Kylo Rens lightsaber, I feel like it wasn't made properly. One of the last skills a Jedi learns is how to create his own Saber, and I feel like Kylo never got that far so he made is saber with less skill. Maybe that explains how Finn was able to stay in the fight so long using Lukes Lightsaber.

-Poe Poe Poe, He was my favorite character and it wasn't even close. I hope he gets more play in the next episode, or we at least get to see him crush some more in his X-wing!!! That's something all the previous 6 films cant hold water to.

-BB8, as the next cute fun droid in the series he did a great job...or I guess the movie did a great job using him and I really enjoyed him. I'm tempted to go buy the BB8 droid now.

Fin and Rey- The movies are in safe hands with those two in the mix. I had no issues with either one of their performances. really entertaining.


Things that werent great

-Kylo Ren, as a villian he isn't that imposing and he doesn't really strike feat into me. One of the things that made the original trilogy so great some may argue the thing that made the originals so great was Darth Vader. He was a bad guy who was awesome, scary, and just plain fun to watch. I found my self being annoyed by Kylo Ren a lot of the times. Reminded me of the whiny Annakin in episodes 1-3 which I am sure that what they were going for. But it didn't work in 1-3 don't see why they thought it would work here. Also he let the General talk back and even insult him on occasion, Vader would have force chocked him to his death.

Carrie Fischer- she didnt age well, and her raspy voice throws me off a lot. its nothing they can help and its good that she is in the film, but she can't be a focal point as the movies progress mainly because I find her hard to watch. It seems like they plan on transitioning POE into her position somehow which is fine for me so long as he still gets to fly an X-wing

R2- They could have struck gold with a few scenes with R2 and BB8. But they chose to have R2 in low power mode... which was just silly

-finally they need a heel that we can all hate and love to hate. As I said before Kylo doesnt cut it for me. Even when he killed Han, I knew it was coming, I knew they had to get rid of Harrison Ford one way or the other so it just didn't seem that evil to me. I feel like Disney killed Han not Kylo.



Finally, my last thoughts are where they go from here. Clearly Luke is going to be training a new Jedi, Kylo will be getting trained in the Dark Side as well, will we be seeing ghost Obi Wan, Yoda, and Annakin? and if they do choose to show them, why didn't Annakin come to Kylo at some point and show him that hey I tried the Dark Side, it really didn't work out... I'm assuming they are just going to completely ignore that plot line from the original series. Which is ok, but I would like some sort of explanation. I know after Luke restored order in Return of The Jedi they kind of faded away at the end but that doesn't mean they left.

I'm hoping for some good plot twists in Episode 8, I don't want it to be exactly like empire strikes back, as this one was very similar to A new Hope. Like if Rey goes and trains with Luke goes and confronts Kylo, finds out that she is his twin sister and gets her hand chopped off were going to have a problem. Clearly shes someones Child, it'll be interesting to see who her parent are and if it has any larger meaning as far as why she is strong in the force.

Ok thats all until I go see it a second time!!!

[JasonEvans]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

ok well my media black out before the movie came out made me miss that development. I figured he wanted too much money to be in it so they killed him off so they didn't have to worry about the next one.

And my point remains the same Kylo Ren Didn't kill Han, which made that scene emotional but not to the point where it makes Kylo a good enough villain. Hopefully he becomes more powerful and more imposing and I can get behind his Darkness and enjoy him. I like the look of his character as long as he keeps his helm on.

[luburch]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

Apparently HF did not want Han to survive through the original trilogy.

[freshmanjs]

-Kylo Ren, as a villian he isn't that imposing and he doesn't really strike feat into me. One of the things that made the original trilogy so great some may argue the thing that made the originals so great was Darth Vader. He was a bad guy who was awesome, scary, and just plain fun to watch. I found my self being annoyed by Kylo Ren a lot of the times. Reminded me of the whiny Annakin in episodes 1-3 which I am sure that what they were going for. But it didn't work in 1-3 don't see why they thought it would work here. Also he let the General talk back and even insult him on occasion, Vader would have force chocked him to his death.



he's meant to be an aspiring badass, but he's not there yet. he's immature, conflicted, and not nearly as powerful as he pretends he is. he's like a very immature vader. i lked that aspect.

[NashvilleDevil]

Best Star Wars ever and I'm not sure it's even close.

The map to Luke was a little hokey, but I' hoping for an explanation in the next films.

My biggest issue, which Jason touched on and we have seen multiple times throughout the Star Wars series, is how Fin and Rey were able to duel with Kylo Ren. Kylo is a trained Sith (Not sure why Rena and Snoke would be something other than Sith, btw??) so he should destroy either in a duel. Multiple times throughout the movie series people with little to no training are able to hold off/beat people with far significant experience.

Also I'm not sure Ren's fits of rage are all tat new. Vader used to have them as well. Sith use emotions, Jedi do not.

Amazing film. Can't wait to see it again.

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

[NashvilleDevil]

Disney didn't kill Han, Harrison Ford did. He had to be convinced, kicking and screaming, to make another Star Wars movie. It is widely reported (though not confirmed by the filmmakers) that killing off Han was one of his conditions for appearing in this film.

Jason

I have read and seen several interviews with Ford in which he says he wanted Han to die at the beginning of Return of the Jedi. Since Han did not die it explains Ford mailing in the performance.

[weezie]

I'm just checking in to see if you are all ok. Anybody need a compress for the forehead or some paper bags to breath into? :eek:

[luburch]

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

I thought it was better than Empire, yes.

[freshmanjs]

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

Depends how you look at it. I have watched Episodes 4,5,6,7 within the last 2 weeks. Episode 7 is better than Empire on several dimensions - acting, writing, special effects among them. I think an objective, fresh viewing of the 2 side by side would suggest that 7 may be better (or at least that it's reasonable to see it as better).

If you are talking about impact relative to context (how it seemed at the time when it was released), then it is easier to make the case for Empire being superior.

My kids, for example, who are new to the series saw Episode 7 as clearly far superior to any of the originals.

[wilson]

This is not even a question. The Empire Strikes Back has Lando Calrissian, The Force Awakens does not.

[JasonEvans]

This is not even a question. The Empire Strikes Back has Lando Calrissian, The Force Awakens does not.

Does the fact that Force Awakens probably has Lando's son help at all?

[DUKIECB]

Does the fact that Force Awakens probably has Lando's son help at all?When asked about Lando's appearance in the Force Awakens Lawrence Kasdan had this to say "Right now, there’s no Lando Calrissian in this movie. But Lando I don’t think is finished in any way, shape, or form". His son being in the current film would definitely create the opportunity for Kasdan's statement to come true.

[Troublemaker]

Prior to the movie, I was convinced the alternate to Luke is Kylo Ren would be Kylo Ren and Rey are brother and sister. Maybe but I doubt Leia would not recognize her daughter. Could Daisy Ridley's similarity to Natalie Portman and a young Carrie Fisher just be a red herring?



I have one complaint that I know only .00001% of the moviegoing population will care about. The first novels I ever read growing up not-as-a-school-assignment were the Thrawn trilogy, so they have an emotional attachment for me. In it, Han and Leia's kids are born - twins named Jacen and Jaina. Jacen eventually grows up to be a bad guy, and Jaina eventually becomes the main Jedi hero to save everyone from her evil twin brother. I know none of the books are canon anymore, and given that a lot of them were not of high quality, I know it's a good thing that we're moving on. But even if the plot is entirely different, the sequel trilogy is clearly telling the story of Jacen and Jaina (I assume everyone agrees there's a 90%+ chance the the main hero is also Han and Leia's child, right?) Would it really have been THAT big a deal to name him Jacen? It would have been a great nod.

Any reason why Rey being Luke's daughter shouldn't be the leading theory?

[luburch]

Any reason why Rey being Luke's daughter shouldn't be the leading theory?

I suppose you could make the "Jedi aren't supposed to have a family" argument, but I'm on the Rey is Luke's daughter train.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I hope not, that's bordering only really unoriginal, but I guess it could still be worked with.

[BLPOG]

So it is better than Empire, itself one of the greatest movies ever made? I understand wanting to proclaim greatness after the let down of the prequels but let's be real, Empire is still the standard for all Star Wars movies and that is a tough mountain to climb for any movie in this series.

I don't think it even approaches Empire, which is nearly flawless IMO. This movie was rife with flaws, they are just minor. My own ranking of the OT is (1) Empire, (2) Return (yeah, yeah, dumb Ewoks, but incredible climax), (3) A New Hope. I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had that it is on par or better than IV, but I don't think I'll be able to decide until I've seen Episode VIII.

Bottom line about this movie is that the acting was terrific, and in combination with the visuals it really brought me into the story. I believed it. In that regard it's what I've always wanted in one of the new films.

[BLPOG]

I hope not, that's bordering only really unoriginal, but I guess it could still be worked with.

I've got mixed feelings on it myself. It seems unoriginal but I think they made it work well enough with Ren that it could be done. I do think there is a Luke connection, whether it is familial or not. What if she were a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy before he abandoned it, and possibly abandoned her? In the "old" days they started training at a very young age. It might explain why Rey is able to pick up on force abilities so quickly.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I've got mixed feelings on it myself. It seems unoriginal but I think they made it work well enough with Ren that it could be done. I do think there is a Luke connection, whether it is familial or not. What if she were a padawan at Luke's new Jedi academy before he abandoned it, and possibly abandoned her? In the "old" days they started training at a very young age. It might explain why Rey is able to pick up on force abilities so quickly.

Well what we know, is that she was waiting on Jakku for her family to return, we dont know who her family is, we know she was really young. So I'm not sure how any theory adds up. I guess Jedi have a long history of Abandoning their children so its possible. I heard Episode 7 followed the books pretty well so perhaps some reading would shed some light. But Id rather wait until the next one comes out. I guess we get a new star wars movie every year for the foreseeable future.

[Troublemaker]

I hope not, that's bordering only really unoriginal, but I guess it could still be worked with.

I'm not sure originality has been shown to be a high priority for these writers, at least with this initial setup. (Also, I don't see how Rey being Luke's daughter is any more unoriginal than Rey being Ren's sister.)

Trying to put myself into the head of a generic Hollywood screenwriter here. If I'm given a chance to write beloved characters 30 years into the future, I'm giving all of them progeny. Han & Leia get one, Lando gets one, and Luke gets one. And all their kids should play major roles, so now it's just about putting puzzle pieces into proper places.

The two kids that aren't blood relatives should become lovers. And lovers should be the protagonists because love is good, even though their love will be tested at certain points in the trilogy. So the remaining kid will become the antagonist.


I guess Jedi have a long history of Abandoning their children so its possible.

Oooh yeah, forgot to mention. The generic Hollywood screenwriter in me likes the reversal of stereotype. The abandoned kid (because apparently Jedi can't have family, per above) turns out to be good. While the kid with the intact family becomes bad.

[JasonEvans]

Id rather wait until the next one comes out. I guess we get a new star wars movie every year for the foreseeable future.

Well, the even year ones will not be part of the ongoing trilogy. Next December we will get Rogue One, which will be the story of the guys who stole the plans to the death star. It is supposed to be a caper kind of flick. Then, in 2017, we get Ep VIII. 2018 will probably be the stand alone Han Solo movie with stuff about his early life such as how he met Chewie. And then 2019 will be the end of the JJ-started/Rian-finished trilogy.

I have not really looked into it, but I don't think Disney has articulated what comes after that. I would bet that they will do another stand alone movie in 2020 and then launch another trilogy, likely following the further adventures of Rey and Finn (or whoever else lives through the current trilogy). It might be wise to take a short break -- maybe 3 or 4 years -- to build up demand again, but I sorta doubt Disney does that with their $4 bill investment in Star Wars.

-Jason "I need to see if I can find how many movies Disney signed Boyega and Ridley up for" Evans

[Wander]

Well what we know, is that she was waiting on Jakku for her family to return, we dont know who her family is, we know she was really young. So I'm not sure how any theory adds up. I guess Jedi have a long history of Abandoning their children so its possible. I heard Episode 7 followed the books pretty well so perhaps some reading would shed some light. But Id rather wait until the next one comes out. I guess we get a new star wars movie every year for the foreseeable future.

Let's put it this way. Does anyone think that after Episode 9, the Skywalker line will be extinguished from the Star Wars universe? Obviously no. Thus, one of the following must be true:

1. Kylo Ren survives the trilogy
2. Kylo Ren has a yet-to-be-introduced kid
3. Leia or Luke have a kid that did not appear in Episode 7
4. Rey is Luke or Leia's daughter

I would say 1-3 are incredibly unlikely.

[freshmanjs]

Let's put it this way. Does anyone think that after Episode 9, the Skywalker line will be extinguished from the Star Wars universe? Obviously no. Thus, one of the following must be true:

1. Kylo Ren survives the trilogy
2. Kylo Ren has a yet-to-be-introduced kid
3. Leia or Luke have a kid that did not appear in Episode 7
4. Rey is Luke or Leia's daughter

I would say 1-3 are incredibly unlikely.

i agree that #4 is likely, but not sure why you say it's 90+% likely to be Leia's daughter vs .Luke's?

[Wander]

i agree that #4 is likely, but not sure why you say it's 90+% likely to be Leia's daughter vs .Luke's?

You guys here and others have made me soften my stance. I'd still vote for Han and Leia's daughter, largely because a brother vs sister conflict is cooler than a cousin vs cousin conflict, but I can see it either way.

[Chicago 1995]

You guys here and others have made me soften my stance. I'd still vote for Han and Leia's daughter, largely because a brother vs sister conflict is cooler than a cousin vs cousin conflict, but I can see it either way.

I'm not as creative as JJ or Lawrence Kasdan, but how would you explain Rey being Han and Leia's daughter and (1) Kylo Ren not knowing that he had a sister or that she was her sister; (2) Han and Leia abandoning her on Jakku.

It seems incredibly implausible that they'd leave her there even with the rise of the First Order. And even if the timeline is such that Leia didn't get pregnant with her until Ren was training with Luke, and she was abandonded on Jakku when her brother turned to the dark side, they never would have mentioned to either him or Luke that they were expecting? And Ren wouldn't have just known they were brother and sister when he was probing her mind?

It seems to create some pretty huge plot holes. That she's Luke's daughter makes much, much more sense.

No, the Jedi pre-order 66 weren't supposed to have families. But once Luke defeated the Emporer, he was the only Jedi. Why wouldn't he have had a family.

Here's a different question. What if we were wrong all along, and the chose one wasn't Anakin? What if it's Rey?

[Udaman]

Just saw it. Very much enjoyed it. Yes it mimics the first Star Wars, but that was fine with me. It's a great movie. I would still rank Empire and the original higher, but this is third.

What I liked: the acting. Fantastic. I really like Ren. That guy is fantastic.

The humor - great. And constant.

Han Solo - so nice to have him back. Even if you knew all along he wouldn't make it.

Seeing Luke at the end - hope the guy can still act because he will have a huge role in the second part.

The fight scenes.

What I didn't like. Leia. sadly she just didn't carry her scenes like Han did. Not even close.

Domhnall Gleesons character. It was forced and over the top. He's a tremendous actor and his talent was wasted.

The fight scenes. Ok I liked them too but agree with others that a guy as powerful as Ren would never get beat by a novice in a light saber fight. Ever. Even if wounded.

So my predictions are that Rey is either Luke's daughter or Rens brother. That is for certain. And Finn is probably related to Lando. And Luke will have to train Rey and she will have to fight her brother. Her brother will eventually turn good because ultimately Star Wars is about the power of transformation and redemption with good always eventually winning out over evil.

[BLPOG]

Regarding Rey, it seems that she absolutely must have had some prior connection to Luke. Not only does she appear to be able to use the force in a trained way, beyond mere intuition of a force-sensitive person, but she also had some idea of Luke's location already in her mind. When Kylo Ren probes her mind he sees an island in an ocean. That wasn't something that could be picked up from BB-8's map as far as I could tell. Moreover, if she was left on Jakku by Luke, he could have used the force to shield her mind from memories of Luke and/or Ren, which in turn could have aided in her resistance to the Dark Side mind-probing.


Here's a different question. What if we were wrong all along, and the chose one wasn't Anakin? What if it's Rey?

Regarding "the Chosen One, " I think Luke's current activities relate to that prophecy. There's always been a small gap in fulfillment of "bringing balance to the force." Part of that is the nature of prophecies - they don't turn out the way people expect. The Jedi Order thought the Chosen One was supposed to destroy the Sith in order to bring balance. By that same logic, he could do so by destroying the Jedi, which he did to within a hair's breadth. Many people agree that he finally brought balance by destroying the emperor, but in redeeming himself, he once again left the balance on the side of light (himself and Luke). An alternative explanation is that Luke was the Chosen One and brought balance through Anakin's redemption. Any way you analyze it though, there seems to be a small discrepancy.

I think that in his isolation, Luke is trying to understand why Jedi pupils fall to the Dark Side and how he can prevent it. I think he might have decided that to understand that, he has to understand the Dark Side himself, and seek a balance of Dark and Light within himself, thereby bringing balance to the force (and perhaps performing a feat that only the Chosen One can safely accomplish without being corrupted completely). Maybe he will fail and Rey will come to do so. Or maybe my speculation is way off. It will be fun to find out.

[Udaman]

And by the way - this movie could have been epic. I'm not a screenwriter but I wish I was - or that JJ would have asked my advice. I would have had:

Finn fights with Ren / Ben and gets hurt like he did. Rey then picks up the light saber and tries to fight. Ben mocks her and toys with her and then she channels the force and fights back. Ben is shocked but then he tells her "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side" and sends her light saber flying where it lands in the snow. He walks towards it and tried to use the force to get it out of the snow. He struggles and it eventually flies by him into the hand of.....Luke.

Ben goes nuts and Luke still pretty easily beats him. Rey yells for Luke to kill him. Tells Luke that Ben killed Han. Luke says "I'm sorry" and you aren't sure who he's even saying it to. Then he picks up Finn and leaves with Rey as Ben yells out in fury that he hates Luke and that he's a coward and that he will kill him next, and Leia, and everyone.

They go back to the Rebels. R2 comes back to life. Luke and Leia hug. Last scene is Rey asking Luke why he didn't kill Ben. Luke says he couldn't then he offers the light saber to her and says "the force is strong in my family. I have it. My father had it....." Dramatic pause "and my daughter has it" he says as he holds the saber out for her to take. Cue the ending.

Tell me that's not better than hiw the movie ended?

Ok dream of being a screenwriter over. :-)

[Dukehky]

And by the way - this movie could have been epic. I'm not a screenwriter but I wish I was - or that JJ would have asked my advice. I would have had:

Finn fights with Ren / Ben and gets hurt like he did. Rey then picks up the light saber and tries to fight. Ben mocks her and toys with her and then she channels the force and fights back. Ben is shocked but then he tells her "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side" and sends her light saber flying where it lands in the snow. He walks towards it and tried to use the force to get it out of the snow. He struggles and it eventually flies by him into the hand of....Luke.

Ben goes nuts and Luke still pretty easily beats him. Rey yells for Luke to kill him. Tells Luke that Ben killed Han. Luke says "I'm sorry" and you aren't sure who he's even saying it to. Then he picks up Finn and leaves with Rey as Ben yells out in fury that he hates Luke and that he's a coward and that he will kill him next, and Leia, and everyone.

They go back to the Rebels. R2 comes back to life. Luke and Leia hug. Last scene is Rey asking Luke why he didn't kill Ben. Luke says he couldn't then he offers the light saber to her and says "the force is strong in my family. I have it. My father had it...." Dramatic pause "and my daughter has it" he says as he holds the saber out for her to take. Cue the ending.

Tell me that's not better than hiw the movie ended?

Ok dream of being a screenwriter over. :-)


I actually don't think they had to unveil the last dialogue you proposed, but I was desperately hoping that Ren beat Rey after she saw she had the force and all that, and then Luke comes in and saves the day. But, it didn't happen. Luke Skywalker is one of my all time favorite movie characters and wanted to see him in this movie so badly.

[Wander]

I'm not as creative as JJ or Lawrence Kasdan, but how would you explain Rey being Han and Leia's daughter and (1) Kylo Ren not knowing that he had a sister or that she was her sister; (2) Han and Leia abandoning her on Jakku.

It seems incredibly implausible that they'd leave her there even with the rise of the First Order. And even if the timeline is such that Leia didn't get pregnant with her until Ren was training with Luke, and she was abandonded on Jakku when her brother turned to the dark side, they never would have mentioned to either him or Luke that they were expecting? And Ren wouldn't have just known they were brother and sister when he was probing her mind?

It seems to create some pretty huge plot holes. That she's Luke's daughter makes much, much more sense.

No, the Jedi pre-order 66 weren't supposed to have families. But once Luke defeated the Emporer, he was the only Jedi. Why wouldn't he have had a family.

Here's a different question. What if we were wrong all along, and the chose one wasn't Anakin? What if it's Rey?

A lot of this makes sense, but would be problematic anyway. Vader interrogated Leia in the original movie without realizing who she was. And Han and Leia abandoning their daughter on Jakku isn't that much more ridiculous than Han and Leia abandoning their niece on Jakku. Recall that Maz asks Han "Who is the girl?" before the camera pans away, so Han clearly knows who she is. My guess is that Han intentionally left the Millenium Falcon next to Rey Skywalker/Solo and was keeping tabs on it to meet up with her whenever she flew it for the first time.

Regarding the lightsaber fight, which is one of the common minor complaints, I like how it turned out! Finn DID get beat pretty quickly as he should have, and I'm OK with Rey winning, especially given that Kylo Ren was wounded from Chewbacca's shot*. You could level the same complaint about Luke being the star of the Death Star battle in his first ever flight in an X-Wing.

*Sidenote: something I've always appreciated about Star Wars is that they give Jedi the exact right power level. They can easily fight off no-name bad guys (and have the appropriate abilities to make that believable, unlike say Black Widow or the Dwarves from the Hobbit), but they are not so powerful that a skilled non-Jedi like Chewbacca or Jango Fett can't pose a threat (unlike say Superman or Hulk).

[-jk]

I'm guessing Rey is Luke's kid. Even the light saber knew...

-jk

[BD80]

For those caught up in the Jedi don't have children hoo hah, remember Obi Wan told Luke that Vader killed his father? And later claimed it was true, "from a certain point of view"

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Droid, please.

I loved it. Thought it was the movie I was expecting 16 years ago.

BB8 was so much more interesting and compelling than Jar Jar. Battle scenes didn't last 30 minutes. And the "bad guy" didn't require 8 hours of exposition.

Thank you JJ for restoring balance to The Force.

(Also, lordy, Solo and Leia make me feel old)

[JasonEvans]

A lot of this makes sense, but would be problematic anyway. Vader interrogated Leia in the original movie without realizing who she was. And Han and Leia abandoning their daughter on Jakku isn't that much more ridiculous than Han and Leia abandoning their niece on Jakku. Recall that Maz asks Han "Who is the girl?" before the camera pans away, so Han clearly knows who she is. My guess is that Han intentionally left the Millenium Falcon next to Rey Skywalker/Solo and was keeping tabs on it to meet up with her whenever she flew it for the first time.

I don't think Han knew anything about Rey being special. Recall that when he first finds her and Finn aboard the Falcon, his first instinct is to drop them off on the nearest planet. It is only after they convince him that BB8 has crucial info for Leia that he agrees to team up with them.

I think everyone is missing something obvious about Rey. Why are we all fixated on Luke or Han/Leia dropping her on Jakku? I'll tell you what I think happened...


Luke had some kind of relationship with a woman (there is also a small chance he used the Force to place a baby inside a woman, the way Darth Plageius supposedly did). The woman, Rey's mother, becomes pregnant but before Luke finds out about that, he has the falling out with Ben/Kylo and goes into hiding. He does not know he has a daughter. It is also possible that Kylo and the Knights of Ren are hunting down Luke's love and offspring, which may be why Luke flees, hoping that his disappearance will keep Snoke and his minions off his lover's tail. Shortly after Luke's disappearance, Luke's lover gives birth... but she is still pursued by Snoke and others. She leaves her daughter on Jakku to keep the girl safe, not at all unlike Obi Wan stashing Luke on Alderan.

Meanwhile, I love Udaman's potential ending for the film, except we would need some explanation for why Luke shows up and how he gets there. He's in hiding and cut off from communications. He didn't show up to save those planets that got destroyed earlier in the film... why show up now? Perhaps he could have sensed a great disturbance in the Force when the planets were destroyed and that brought him back. Anyway, that's the only flay in Udaman's excellent ending.

-Jason "I still liked the ending JJ came up with, but everything after Han died were the weakest parts of a very good movie" Evans

[Wander]

Ultimately, I think we are just going to have to wait to see if its Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo.

Let me ask a different character connection question: Supreme Leader Snoke = Darth Plagueis?

[FerryFor50]

Seeing Luke at the end - hope the guy can still act because he will have a huge role in the second part.


Mark Hamill can still very much act - he's one of the best Jokers to date (he does the voice acting on the Arkham video game series and the animated series) and he made a credible appearance in The Kingsman.

He is also solid in the TV series The Flash as Toyman.

His appearances made me wonder why he disappeared from acting so long - he's really talented.

[FerryFor50]

I don't think Han knew anything about Rey being special. Recall that when he first finds her and Finn aboard the Falcon, his first instinct is to drop them off on the nearest planet. It is only after they convince him that BB8 has crucial info for Leia that he agrees to team up with them.

I think everyone is missing something obvious about Rey. Why are we all fixated on Luke or Han/Leia dropping her on Jakku? I'll tell you what I think happened...


Luke had some kind of relationship with a woman (there is also a small chance he used the Force to place a baby inside a woman, the way Darth Plageius supposedly did). The woman, Rey's mother, becomes pregnant but before Luke finds out about that, he has the falling out with Ben/Kylo and goes into hiding. He does not know he has a daughter. It is also possible that Kylo and the Knights of Ren are hunting down Luke's love and offspring, which may be why Luke flees, hoping that his disappearance will keep Snoke and his minions off his lover's tail. Shortly after Luke's disappearance, Luke's lover gives birth... but she is still pursued by Snoke and others. She leaves her daughter on Jakku to keep the girl safe, not at all unlike Obi Wan stashing Luke on Alderan.

Meanwhile, I love Udaman's potential ending for the film, except we would need some explanation for why Luke shows up and how he gets there. He's in hiding and cut off from communications. He didn't show up to save those planets that got destroyed earlier in the film... why show up now? Perhaps he could have sensed a great disturbance in the Force when the planets were destroyed and that brought him back. Anyway, that's the only flay in Udaman's excellent ending.

-Jason "I still liked the ending JJ came up with, but everything after Han died were the weakest parts of a very good movie" Evans

I wouldn't have liked Luke showing up to bail Rey out. I liked that Rey has pretty much figured it out on her own; it shows that she has the potential to be the best Jedi yet.

The question of Luke or Han being the father... one thing that stuck out to me was when Rey was described as the kid "Han wished he had."

That says three things to me:

- Han might not have been as good a father as he should have been to Kylo, which explains why Kylo went to the dark side
- Rey as Han's daughter opens up a new dynamic to the Rey v. Kylo conflict.
- It also explains how Han and Rey had such an immediate connection.

However, as Luke's daughter, it's Kylo vs his idol's granddaughter, so also fairly interesting dynamic.

[BD80]

...

However, as Luke's daughter, it's Kylo vs his idol's granddaughter, so also fairly interesting dynamic.

Just as Vader "killed" Luke's father, Luke "killed" Vader. Opens up more opportunity for revenge by Kylo for Rey to be Luke's daughter.

[Troublemaker]

Ultimately, I think we are just going to have to wait to see if its Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo.

There's a mindwipe theory floating around that would allow Han, Leia, and Rey to not recognize each other as parents and daughter.

The mindwipe theory would also help with other things. For example, some fanboys were triggered that a novice like Rey would be able to do a Jedi Mind Trick, a very advanced technique. But what if that wasn't the first time she had done it? Maybe that was a skill she had learned in childhood before her memory was erased and she was abandoned on Jakku.

[Udaman]

Morning after and I still like the movie but did think of one semi-major problem......

It's the idea of Han just completely abandoning his son when he turned bad. He would do everything to try and get him back. I know they tried to explain that he was lost and it ended his marriage to Leya and that he went back to being a scavenger, but none of that really makes sense. Han would have done everything to get his son back.

More convinced than ever that Rey is Luke's daughter. I like JEs idea that Luke had a tryst. Then abandoned her for her safety. Thanks too for the shout out on my hypothetical ending (though yes mine didn't quite explain how he would have gotten there).

Last few random thoughts - how did the weapon work? Wouldn't they need to be near the planet they were trying to destroy? The fire ball didn't mive that fast.

Seems pretty random that Han and Chewie would be right near the planet where the M Falcon was.

Seeing it again tomorrow with my kids. I'm sure they will love it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Again, I really enjoyed the movie. Thinking back 24 hours later, only two things bothered me:

- Somehow, Han's death was incredibly not moving. I felt it was overly forshadowed and I never thought for a second Kylo Ren would go home again.

- Kylo Ren without the mask is about as scary and intimidating as Zack Braff in an episode of Scrubs. He just looks like a petulant teenager who got grounded and can't go out with his friends.

- One other gripe... why is Darth Solo's motivation supposed to be "grandfather worship?" It isn't like Vader build some great legacy. He rose to power and fell in 20 years, leaving behind a fractured empire and two destroyed battle stations.

[Udaman]

Mtn devil - I sort of agree with you. Ren without his helmet did look like a disgruntled teen. But I kind of liked that. As a metaphor for the entitled teenager who thinks he knows everything - it was pretty spot on.

Incidentally, I read that Michael Fassbender was considered for the role. As much as I like Adam Driver, Fassbender would have been fantastic and likely brought more depth to that role for sure.

[-jk]

Mtn devil - I sort of agree with you. Ren without his helmet did look like a disgruntled teen. But I kind of liked that. As a metaphor for the entitled teenager who thinks he knows everything - it was pretty spot on.

Incidentally, I read that Michael Fassbender was considered for the role. As much as I like Adam Driver, Fassbender would have been fantastic and likely brought more depth to that role for sure.

I agree - he's supposed to be a petulant teen - temper, acne, and all.

-jk

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree - he's supposed to be a petulant teen - temper, acne, and all.

-jk

Well, I mean, I get that. And I am very appreciative that we don't get another three movies explaining his dark side - I don't need to see "moody and conflicted Ben Solo can't get a date to prom." I just don't find him very menacing and I don't really get his reverence for Vader. Maybe it's supposed to not make a ton of sense. Lots of teens don't.

[OldPhiKap]

Okay, just came back. A few thoughts:

1. JJ Abrams was an excellent choice.

2. SOOOOO glad they had a lot more real sets and fewer CGI overloads.

3. Really faithful to the spirit of the original three. And the plot was basically the same, up through finding Yoda. But it's this generation's New Hope.

4. Strong acting. Story not terribly original (being kind here) but WAY better than the convoluted dung piles of the three prequels.

5. Asked my eleven year old how he rated it. He gave it a nine, taking a point off because Han died. I see his point, but as a practical matter it was time.

6. C3PO was oddly annoying even in the small roles. I am okay with reducing him to home base cameos. He got even less face time than Jar Jar Binks did in II and III.

7. If only Disney could find a way to tie the movie in to toys, cookies, and coffee creamers. Yikes, we had a half hour of SW merchandise commercials before the previews.

Overall, really enjoyed it and really glad I did not find out any real spoilers. Plot could have been more original, but still top notch.

Prediction: driving home, the lovely Mrs. OPK noted that the instrument of doom was basically a bigger Death Star -- yet again. I replied that after the Death Star, and then the improved Death Star, and now the Super Planetiod Death Star, the next one will have to be HUUUUGE.

That's right -- the Trump Star.

You heard it here first.

[Troublemaker]

Well, I mean, I get that. And I am very appreciative that we don't get another three movies explaining his dark side - I don't need to see "moody and conflicted Ben Solo can't get a date to prom." I just don't find him very menacing and I don't really get his reverence for Vader. Maybe it's supposed to not make a ton of sense. Lots of teens don't.

I'm sure they will fill in a lot of the backstory in Episode VIII. I'm expecting lots of flashbacks in the next one, and Ren might even have a "From my point of view, the Republic is evil" dialogue to explain things.

But even as is, Vader was the biggest badass in the galaxy for 20 years. I could see how his grandchild might become obsessed with or even revere him.

[fuse]

Mtn devil - I sort of agree with you. Ren without his helmet did look like a disgruntled teen. But I kind of liked that. As a metaphor for the entitled teenager who thinks he knows everything - it was pretty spot on.

Incidentally, I read that Michael Fassbender was considered for the role. As much as I like Adam Driver, Fassbender would have been fantastic and likely brought more depth to that role for sure.

Where are we getting that Ben Solo / Kylo Ren is a teenager?

I agree he is a weak (conflicted if I am generous) villain based on feeling the "pull to the light".
It is a bit strange to idolize the evil side of a redeemed grandfather.
You'd think Anakin could force ghost a dialog with him.

The episode 7 timeline is 30-40 years (?) after Jedi.
Just as episode 4 (the original) is supposed to be 30(?) years after the Clone Wars.

I don't know if our original heroes ages were ever firmly established in the movies- Luke appears to be late teens/ early twenties (which would also be true for Leia of course), Han maybe in his late thirties/ early forties.

Anyway, to me this would suggest Kylo Ren could be in his teens but would more likely be mid-twenties.
Leia at 25 having kids plus 40 years later is 65.
I don't think Kylo Ren is 40 so there is some discontinuity here.

The larger "you have to buy in" is around Jedi and Luke Skywalker being a myth or story.
Is our ability to retain history so poor that within one generation (both in transition from Sith to episode 4 as well as 6 to 7) what "everyone" in the galaxy knew is now forgotten?

I enjoyed the story and do not want to pick it apart (further)- the timelines seem very squishy to me.

I really wish there was more back story to Supreme Leader Snokes and that he had a better name (Snokes? Really? Who's afraid of a big bad Snoke? ;-).

I also wonder if Gwendoline Christie's Captain Phasma (another terrible name) will be this trilogy's Aurra Sing.

[JasonEvans]

The larger "you have to buy in" is around Jedi and Luke Skywalker being a myth or story.
Is our ability to retain history so poor that within one generation (both in transition from Sith to episode 4 as well as 6 to 7) what "everyone" in the galaxy knew is now forgotten?

I'm sorry, but how does "everyone" in the Galaxy know the story? How much of what Luke did was verifiable to the masses. Sure, he blew up the first Death Star but aside from that, his other exploits were really only witnessed by a very few number of people. Darth and the Emperor are both dead. So is Yoda. Everyone Luke encountered on Alderan when he rescued Han from Jabba are dead. If you were a member of the rebellion/resistance you might have heard about how Luke Skywalker did this or that, but very few of you saw him do anything. Most people probably think the Emperor was killed by Lando Calrissian and the crew of the Falcon when they blew up the second Death Star.

So, here is the grand total of people who really saw what Luke the Jedi did -- Han, Leia, Lando, R2D2, C3PO... that's it.

Whats more, the person who thinks of Luke as a legend is from a clearly desolate planet and has basically been on her own since she was abandoned there as a very young child. Almost everything aside from sand is a legend to her.

-Jason "I do agree that the timeline is a little bit strained for Kylo/Ben and perhaps Rey or Finn to be the children of the main characters... it has been too long for their kids to be this age" Evans

[OldPhiKap]

How about the child that was taken from Ren. Younger sister as opposed to daughter? Somewhere out there is a future offspring with Force potential.

[El_Diablo]

Ren is clearly not supposed to be a teenager. Adam Driver (the actor portraying Ren) is 32. His age seems fine.

The fact that some people in the galaxy, including a solitary scavenger living in a desert, may not have 100% knowledge of things that happened over 30 years ago also seems fine to me. She at least has heard of Luke Skywalker and has probably heard various stories about him of varying degrees of plausibility (and let's face it, even the true story sounds like a myth).

I am more bothered by the carbon-copy plot, as there are even more similarities than Jason outlined above (e.g., the grey-haired hero from the previous trilogy confronts the bad guy one-on-one and is struck down with a light saber while the young orphan looks on). Still, a very good movie.

[OldPhiKap]

Ren is clearly not supposed to be a teenager. Adam Driver (the actor portraying Ren) is 32. His age seems fine.

The fact that some people in the galaxy, including a solitary scavenger living in a desert, may not have 100% knowledge of things that happened over 30 years ago also seems fine to me. She at least has heard of Luke Skywalker and has probably heard various stories about him of varying degrees of plausibility (and let's face it, even the true story sounds like a myth).

I am more bothered by the carbon-copy plot, as there are even more similarities than Jason outlined above (e.g., the grey-haired hero from the previous trilogy confronts the bad guy one-on-one and is struck down with a light saber while the young orphan looks on). Still, a very good movie.

It was also funny (if I heard it right) that she had heard of Han because he was a legendary smuggler, not a rebel hero.

[El_Diablo]

I'm sorry, but how does "everyone" in the Galaxy know the story? How much of what Luke did was verifiable to the masses. Sure, he blew up the first Death Star but aside from that, his other exploits were really only witnessed by a very few number of people. Darth and the Emperor are both dead. So is Yoda. Everyone Luke encountered on Alderan when he rescued Han from Jabba are dead. If you were a member of the rebellion/resistance you might have heard about how Luke Skywalker did this or that, but very few of you saw him do anything. Most people probably think the Emperor was killed by Lando Calrissian and the crew of the Falcon when they blew up the second Death Star.

So, here is the grand total of people who really saw what Luke the Jedi did -- Han, Leia, Lando, R2D2, C3PO... that's it.

Whats more, the person who thinks of Luke as a legend is from a clearly desolate planet and has basically been on her own since she was abandoned there as a very young child. Almost everything aside from sand is a legend to her.

-Jason "I do agree that the timeline is a little bit strained for Kylo/Ben and perhaps Rey or Finn to be the children of the main characters... it has been too long for their kids to be this age" Evans

Jabba's palace (from Episode VI) is on Tatooine. Alderaan was destroyed in Episode IV.

Ren is about 30, and this movie came out 32 years after Episode VI, so the continuity is perfectly fine in that respect. But even if he were only 18, what would be wrong with that? It's not like Han and Leia must have had a child within one year after Episode VI or something. Maybe they took some time to get together, had a nice long honeymoon and enjoyed their time together for awhile before having a kid.

And why does anyone think Finn is Lando's child, other than the fact that he's black?

[Edouble]

I don't think Han knew anything about Rey being special. Recall that when he first finds her and Finn aboard the Falcon, his first instinct is to drop them off on the nearest planet. It is only after they convince him that BB8 has crucial info for Leia that he agrees to team up with them.

I think everyone is missing something obvious about Rey. Why are we all fixated on Luke or Han/Leia dropping her on Jakku? I'll tell you what I think happened...


Luke had some kind of relationship with a woman (there is also a small chance he used the Force to place a baby inside a woman, the way Darth Plageius supposedly did). The woman, Rey's mother, becomes pregnant but before Luke finds out about that, he has the falling out with Ben/Kylo and goes into hiding. He does not know he has a daughter. It is also possible that Kylo and the Knights of Ren are hunting down Luke's love and offspring, which may be why Luke flees, hoping that his disappearance will keep Snoke and his minions off his lover's tail. Shortly after Luke's disappearance, Luke's lover gives birth... but she is still pursued by Snoke and others. She leaves her daughter on Jakku to keep the girl safe, not at all unlike Obi Wan stashing Luke on Alderan.

Meanwhile, I love Udaman's potential ending for the film, except we would need some explanation for why Luke shows up and how he gets there. He's in hiding and cut off from communications. He didn't show up to save those planets that got destroyed earlier in the film... why show up now? Perhaps he could have sensed a great disturbance in the Force when the planets were destroyed and that brought him back. Anyway, that's the only flay in Udaman's excellent ending.

-Jason "I still liked the ending JJ came up with, but everything after Han died were the weakest parts of a very good movie" Evans


I'm sorry, but how does "everyone" in the Galaxy know the story? How much of what Luke did was verifiable to the masses. Sure, he blew up the first Death Star but aside from that, his other exploits were really only witnessed by a very few number of people. Darth and the Emperor are both dead. So is Yoda. Everyone Luke encountered on Alderan when he rescued Han from Jabba are dead. If you were a member of the rebellion/resistance you might have heard about how Luke Skywalker did this or that, but very few of you saw him do anything. Most people probably think the Emperor was killed by Lando Calrissian and the crew of the Falcon when they blew up the second Death Star.

So, here is the grand total of people who really saw what Luke the Jedi did -- Han, Leia, Lando, R2D2, C3PO... that's it.

Whats more, the person who thinks of Luke as a legend is from a clearly desolate planet and has basically been on her own since she was abandoned there as a very young child. Almost everything aside from sand is a legend to her.

-Jason "I do agree that the timeline is a little bit strained for Kylo/Ben and perhaps Rey or Finn to be the children of the main characters... it has been too long for their kids to be this age" Evans

Jason... the planet with all the sand in the first trilogy is called Tatooine. :rolleyes:

[devildm]

I liked the movie...still processing, though. I'm good with the similarities to episode 4, after all, especially when it comes to power-hungry villains, history tends to repeat itself.

I did see quite a few Easter Eggs that had to do with the old series, but there was one I wanted to confirm if anyone knew. When Rey/Finn split up with Solo/Chewie on the "death planet" she accesses a hatch and broke something that allowed doors to open for solo. In the hatch appeared to be a model of the reactor core of the second Death Star. Did anyone else notice or am I just making that up?

[fuse]

Rewatching the original, Leia is kept in cell 2187.

I do believe Finn is FN 2187.
Another nice nostalgia / throw back / tribute.

[El_Diablo]

Apparently the stormtrooper who was convinced to remove Rey's restraints was played by James Bond:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/17/daniel-craig-makes-cameo-star-wars-force-awakens

[OldPhiKap]

Apparently the stormtrooper who was convinced to remove Rey's restraints was played by James Bond:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/17/daniel-craig-makes-cameo-star-wars-force-awakens

Saw him listed somewhere as an uncredited cameo. Also, I think SNL alum Bill Hader was credited as one of the folks who helped phrase BB-8's sounds.

[Troublemaker]

And why does anyone think Finn is Lando's child, other than the fact that he's black?

Finn has a deal with the First Order for his services, but then when he sees what the deal would entail, his conscience takes over and he reneges on the deal and performs a rescue instead.

It's highly suggestive...

(And yes, he's black. I see nothing wrong with using that as a clue.)

[Dukehky]

Finn has a deal with the First Order for his services, but then when he sees what the deal would entail, his conscience takes over and he reneges on the deal and performs a rescue instead.

It's highly suggestive...

(And yes, he's black. I see nothing wrong with using that as a clue.)

How man other brothas have you seen in the galaxy?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I liked the movie...still processing, though. I'm good with the similarities to episode 4, after all, especially when it comes to power-hungry villains, history tends to repeat itself.

I did see quite a few Easter Eggs that had to do with the old series, but there was one I wanted to confirm if anyone knew. When Rey/Finn split up with Solo/Chewie on the "death planet" she accesses a hatch and broke something that allowed doors to open for solo. In the hatch appeared to be a model of the reactor core of the second Death Star. Did anyone else notice or am I just making that up?

Pretty sure I saw a glimpse of the weird floating sphere that Obi Wan uses to teach Luke light saber tactics in A New Hope on the Millenium Falcon.

[El_Diablo]

Finn has a deal with the First Order for his services, but then when he sees what the deal would entail, his conscience takes over and he reneges on the deal and performs a rescue instead.

It's highly suggestive...

(And yes, he's black. I see nothing wrong with using that as a clue.)

Yeah, I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with it, just that I saw no other possible connection and honestly had no clue what else about his background could cause people to draw that conclusion. I guess there's a broad parallel, and that makes me somewhat uneasy now because I will be very disappointed if that turns out to be the case. With Ren being Han and Leia's son and Rey very likely being either Luke's daughter or Han and Leia's daughter (not to mention the original Vader/Anakin reveal in Empire), having another twist along these lines would be a bit much. What's next, Captain Phasma is revealed to be--gasp--Boba Fett's daughter?

Disney, please.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with it, just that I saw no other possible connection and honestly had no clue what else about his background could cause people to draw that conclusion. I guess there's a broad parallel, and that makes me somewhat uneasy now because I will be very disappointed if that turns out to be the case. With Ren being Han and Leia's son and Rey very likely being either Luke's daughter or Han and Leia's daughter (not to mention the original Vader/Anakin reveal in Empire), having another twist along these lines would be a bit much. What's next, Captain Phasma is revealed to be--gasp--Boba Fett's daughter?

Disney, please.

I am also disappointed by the "everyone's related" trope. Dozens of planets referenced, and the galaxy is basically steeped in nepotism? Meh.

[OldPhiKap]

I am also disappointed by the "everyone's related" trope. Dozens of planets referenced, and the galaxy is basically steeped in nepotism? Meh.

Agree, I would rather Finn be a new guy than a forced offspring of Billy Dee Williams.

[BLPOG]

Morning after and I still like the movie but did think of one semi-major problem...

It's the idea of Han just completely abandoning his son when he turned bad. He would do everything to try and get him back. I know they tried to explain that he was lost and it ended his marriage to Leya and that he went back to being a scavenger, but none of that really makes sense. Han would have done everything to get his son back.

I think it's implied that they couldn't even find/contact him. When Han tells Leia that he saw their son from a distance, it's as if many years have passed since their last meeting. It might be that they never saw him again after the his fall, and eventually Han gave it up as a lost cause. His faith in Luke also served to convince him of how far gone Ben was (since even Luke couldn't save him). Still, there's definitely some room to fault Han there and I think that is the idea - he is not perfect and his actions as a father could have contributed to Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think it's implied that they couldn't even find/contact him. When Han tells Leia that he saw their son from a distance, it's as if many years have passed since their last meeting. It might be that they never saw him again after the his fall, and eventually Han gave it up as a lost cause. His faith in Luke also served to convince him of how far gone Ben was (since even Luke couldn't save him). Still, there's definitely some room to fault Han there and I think that is the idea - he is not perfect and his actions as a father could have contributed to Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side.

Yeah, Han was never made out as a paragon of virtue

[ncexnyc]

Took my son to see the movie yesterday and we both enjoyed it.

Unlike him, I'm a lot more critical of what I saw and I'm really not sure why so many people are gushing over it, this isn't ESB. It reminds me of those really lovely Christmas displays you see in the malls this time of year. You know the ones I mean, they've got a great looking tree surrounded by a bunch of beautifully wrapped presents, the only catch being if you opened one of those presents, there wouldn't be anything inside.

So what did I like about this movie? Well I thought the pacing was excellent, no dead spots in this movie at all. I thought the new actors who played Rey and Finn were solid and I also thought Ford was solid as well. The score was up to your usual Star Wars standard as was the cinematography.

So what bothers me about this film? Kylo Ren for starters. At first he seemed like a formidable villian, especially when he stopped that blast ray in midair, but as so many others have already pointed out he went rapidly downhill after that. I understand he isn't fully trained yet, but come on, he should have wiped the floor with Finn and Rey. I also wasn't impressed with the actor they selected to play Ren. When he took his mask off that was it. You may as well of had Screach from Saved by the Bell, playing Ren. Paying homage to the original was a very nice touch, but it's like a super funny joke, the first couple of times you laugh, but by the tenth time you hear it the luster is gone. And last, but not least I found the super weapon to be a massive joke. So let me get this straight, you completely drain a star to power this weapon. So what happens to the planets in said solar system? And then when the weapon fires the energy blast travels light year away, which I can live with, but when it arrives in the target solar system, they ray breaks off into several different mini beams. I guess that's Star Wars version of a M.I.R.V.

I'm sure this movie is going to make tons of money and I'm sure I'll go see the next episode, but this isn't a classic in any way, shape or form.

[luburch]

Took my son to see the movie yesterday and we both enjoyed it.

Unlike him, I'm a lot more critical of what I saw and I'm really not sure why so many people are gushing over it, this isn't ESB. It reminds me of those really lovely Christmas displays you see in the malls this time of year. You know the ones I mean, they've got a great looking tree surrounded by a bunch of beautifully wrapped presents, the only catch being if you opened one of those presents, there wouldn't be anything inside.

So what did I like about this movie? Well I thought the pacing was excellent, no dead spots in this movie at all. I thought the new actors who played Rey and Finn were solid and I also thought Ford was solid as well. The score was up to your usual Star Wars standard as was the cinematography.

So what bothers me about this film? Kylo Ren for starters. At first he seemed like a formidable villian, especially when he stopped that blast ray in midair, but as so many others have already pointed out he went rapidly downhill after that. I understand he isn't fully trained yet, but come on, he should have wiped the floor with Finn and Rey. I also wasn't impressed with the actor they selected to play Ren. When he took his mask off that was it. You may as well of had Screach from Saved by the Bell, playing Ren. Paying homage to the original was a very nice touch, but it's like a super funny joke, the first couple of times you laugh, but by the tenth time you hear it the luster is gone. And last, but not least I found the super weapon to be a massive joke. So let me get this straight, you completely drain a star to power this weapon. So what happens to the planets in said solar system? And then when the weapon fires the energy blast travels light year away, which I can live with, but when it arrives in the target solar system, they ray breaks off into several different mini beams. I guess that's Star Wars version of a M.I.R.V.

I'm sure this movie is going to make tons of money and I'm sure I'll go see the next episode, but this isn't a classic in any way, shape or form.

Except that it is.

[BLPOG]

And then when the weapon fires the energy blast travels light year away, which I can live with, but when it arrives in the target solar system, they ray breaks off into several different mini beams. I guess that's Star Wars version of a M.I.R.V.

Although that was my reaction at the moment I saw the beams split, after a minute of reflection I realized that it made sense (I know, it is absurd to even think in this context) from a physics perspective, even if we assume the beams travel in one unchanging direction. It's a matter of angles and great distance; the weapon would have to fire multiple beams with only the smallest difference in angle such that they were basically one coherent beam for nearly the entire range.

If you take a look at the new canon map of the galaxy, the distance between Starkiller Base and the Hosnian system is about half the length of the galaxy, which according to Wookieepedia is over 100,000 light years across in diameter. So if we estimate that distance as 50,000 light years and use the distance between the Earth and Sun (0.00001581 light years) as an estimate of the intra-planetary distance in the Hosnian system, we can come up with an angle between beam orientations for a pair of target planets using the law of cosines. The maximum would be where the shortest distance from the weapon to planet A is perpendicular to the distance from planet A to B, in which case the law of cosines reduces to the Pythagorean theorem and we can calculate the angle using tan(theta)=(0.00001581/100,000), yielding theta of about 1.581 x 10^-10 radians or 9.058 x 10^-9 degrees.

But "low-power mode?" Gimme a break, JJ!

[OldPhiKap]

Although that was my reaction at the moment I saw the beams split, after a minute of reflection I realized that it made sense (I know, it is absurd to even think in this context) from a physics perspective, even if we assume the beams travel in one unchanging direction. It's a matter of angles and great distance; the weapon would have to fire multiple beams with only the smallest difference in angle such that they were basically one coherent beam for nearly the entire range.

If you take a look at the new canon map of the galaxy, the distance between Starkiller Base and the Hosnian system is about half the length of the galaxy, which according to Wookieepedia is over 100,000 light years across in diameter. So if we estimate that distance as 50,000 light years and use the distance between the Earth and Sun (0.00001581 light years) as an estimate of the intra-planetary distance in the Hosnian system, we can come up with an angle between beam orientations for a pair of target planets using the law of cosines. The maximum would be where the shortest distance from the weapon to planet A is perpendicular to the distance from planet A to B, in which case the law of cosines reduces to the Pythagorean theorem and we can calculate the angle using tan(theta)=(0.00001581/100,000), yielding theta of about 1.581 x 10^-10 radians or 9.058 x 10^-9 degrees.

But "low-power mode?" Gimme a break, JJ!

But how can one drain the energy from the sun? Capillary action of some sort or a vacuum-gravity pull? Hell no. And wouldn't the energy stored prior to blasting either have to be converted to mass (which would rupture the panet) or remain as energy (in which case a small planet would be more than consumed by the energy of its sun)?

Now that I think about it, I'm having second thoughts about the practicality of a weapon able to fire particles at hyperspeed. Need more pencil lead and another cup of coffee.

[BLPOG]

But how can one drain the energy from the sun? Capillary action of some sort or a vacuum-gravity pull? Hell no. And wouldn't the energy stored prior to blasting either have to be converted to mass (which would rupture the panet) or remain as energy (in which case a small planet would be more than consumed by the energy of its sun)?

Now that I think about it, I'm having second thoughts about the practicality of a weapon able to fire particles at hyperspeed. Need more pencil lead and another cup of coffee.

Maybe they extended their planetary shield all the way around the star and juiced it like an orange. Science!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm having second thoughts about the practicality of a weapon able to fire particles at hyperspeed.

This is why I love this board.

[OldPhiKap]

Related question:

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared.

Let's assume that the weapon stream has negligible mass, so its energy is equal to the speed of light squared. It is a bolt of "pure" energy.

If we speed it up to hyperspeed though, would it lose energy or gain energy? Or no theoretical impact?

(i am assuming that the extra velocity would not produce more {physics} force because there is no mass in this assumption, and because the planets did not simply blow up like a bullet went through them).

[BLPOG]

Related question:

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared.

Let's assume that the weapon stream has negligible mass, so its energy is equal to the speed of light squared. It is a bolt of "pure" energy.

If we speed it up to hyperspeed though, would it lose energy or gain energy? Or no theoretical impact?

(i am assuming that the extra velocity would not produce more {physics} force because there is no mass in this assumption, and because the planets did not simply blow up like a bullet went through them).

Well, I'm no astrophysicist (or particle physicist...or physicist), but I have had a lot of coffee today, so I'll take a shot:

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared is not the general form of the mass-energy equivalency. I think in this case the relevant form would be { energy^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (pc)^2 }. You have to account for the momentum term. [Side note: that equation always reminds me of The Timaeus. Everything really is made of right triangles...]

The additional speed adds momentum and energy to the system and there would be more force even without mass. You're thinking with Newtonian mechanics. You can still use the derivative of momentum, but momentum is described relativistically rather than as the classical mechanics p=mv.

As for moving the stream at hyper-lightspeed, certain parts of the way energy affects/is affected in the system would depend on the methodology used, but it would "lose" energy in the sense of increasing entropy because that's what always happens. If the beam were primarily composed of tachyon-like particles, the speed of the beam would actually increase as the energy decreased, although the momentum would presumably decrease as well (we're getting well outside my knowledge now). I think the idea is that the weapon uses hyperspace though, which is a Star Wars-universe concept but which would involve manipulating space-time rather than simply firing a particle beam.

Now I know what some folks are saying at this point: Why are you even discussing this nonsense? IMO, the fact that we are is further evidence of the overall quality of the film. We have reason to explain and speculate about various parts of the movie because we enjoyed the story and acting, as opposed to the prequels, which gave us reason to bury our heads in sand.

[A-Tex Devil]

Stupid question - do we know for sure that the student that sent Luke into self-exile was Kylo Ren/Ben Solo? Maybe I missed the definitive script line.

Abrams is smart enough to know even the most modest fanboys will guess most of the possible twists. But curious who Snoke is and what his background is. Is he in the canon books and games?

[-jk]

Snoke? He's Gollum. Or Caesar...

Or maybe Palpatine, after he learned immortality...

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

Stupid question - do we know for sure that the student that sent Luke into self-exile was Kylo Ren/Ben Solo? Maybe I missed the definitive script line.

Abrams is smart enough to know even the most modest fanboys will guess most of the possible twists. But curious who Snoke is and what his background is. Is he in the canon books and games?

I though that Han's son was fairly definitively the one who drove Luke to hang it up. Will defer to others if I missed it though.

On the second point, JJ is not directing the next one. He said he worked with the next guy during filming to work on continuity, but left a lot of backstory for them to explore.

[A-Tex Devil]

I though that Han's son was fairly definitively the one who drove Luke to hang it up. Will defer to others if I missed it though.

On the second point, JJ is not directing the next one. He said he worked with the next guy during filming to work on continuity, but left a lot of backstory for them to explore.

Yeah. They say a student drove Luke into exile. And who else would it be but Kylo Ren? But didn't seem like they ever said it was him explicitly.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah. They say a student drove Luke into exile. And who else would it be but Kylo Ren? But didn't seem like they ever said it was him explicitly.

Agreed. But didn't either Leia or Han say something about Luke couldn't save him or something? Just saw it once so could be wrong.

It was clearly heavily implied, and I think it would be odd to force in an interlock get new character in the betrayal theme next film. But who knows.

[BattierD12]

Agreed. But didn't either Leia or Han say something about Luke couldn't save him or something? Just saw it once so could be wrong.

It was clearly heavily implied, and I think it would be odd to force in an interlock get new character in the betrayal theme next film. But who knows.

Unless the student who drove him into exile...the one with so much power that she had to be sent away...came back to see him, with his lightsaber, and a clouded memory of her past...that shocks Luke so much he is unable to utter a line at the end of the movie.

Now that would be a plot twist.

[moonpie23]

And by the way - this movie could have been epic. I'm not a screenwriter but I wish I was - or that JJ would have asked my advice. I would have had:

Finn fights with Ren / Ben and gets hurt like he did. Rey then picks up the light saber and tries to fight. Ben mocks her and toys with her and then she channels the force and fights back. Ben is shocked but then he tells her "You have no idea the power of the Dark Side" and sends her light saber flying where it lands in the snow. He walks towards it and tried to use the force to get it out of the snow. He struggles and it eventually flies by him into the hand of....Luke.

Ben goes nuts and Luke still pretty easily beats him. Rey yells for Luke to kill him. Tells Luke that Ben killed Han. Luke says "I'm sorry" and you aren't sure who he's even saying it to. Then he picks up Finn and leaves with Rey as Ben yells out in fury that he hates Luke and that he's a coward and that he will kill him next, and Leia, and everyone.

They go back to the Rebels. R2 comes back to life. Luke and Leia hug. Last scene is Rey asking Luke why he didn't kill Ben. Luke says he couldn't then he offers the light saber to her and says "the force is strong in my family. I have it. My father had it...." Dramatic pause "and my daughter has it" he says as he holds the saber out for her to take. Cue the ending.

Tell me that's not better than hiw the movie ended?

Ok dream of being a screenwriter over. :-)


I actually don't think they had to unveil the last dialogue you proposed, but I was desperately hoping that Ren beat Rey after she saw she had the force and all that, and then Luke comes in and saves the day. But, it didn't happen. Luke Skywalker is one of my all time favorite movie characters and wanted to see him in this movie so badly.

ummm......sorry, absolutely NOT......i loved how the entire climax of the movie was Rey's moment....

[El_Diablo]

Snoke? He's Gollum. Or Caesar...

Or maybe Palpatine, after he learned immortality...

-jk

Snoke is an older, disfigured Jar Jar Binks:

https://www.reddit.com/comments/3qvj6w

[gurufrisbee]

Saw it yesterday with the family. We all loved it.

It absolutely had some parallels. My nine year old daughter (who has become a super fan in the past six weeks when we prepped by watching all of the first six) came out and said right away how Rey, Fin, and Poe were the new two guys and a girl trio like Han, Leia, and Luke or Anakin, Obi Won, and Padime.

I didn't mind the similarities. I actually appreciated a lot of of the nods to them which this time felt natural and fitting rather than in 1,2, and 3 where they were clearly just blatant shout outs to the fans assuming you'd already seen the other movies, which technically had not happened yet.

I do think this thread is funny in that there is so much complaining that this movie was too similar to IV, but then complaining that Kylo Ren was too different than Darth Vader.

I like Kylo's character. He clearly has not been fully trained and is full of conflict. It's actually quite Anakin-like. And at this point it's nice because you could make a good story with him still being conflicted and turning good in the end like Vader or going full on baddie like the Emperor. Plus, he's not a jedi. He's from the Knights of Ren and while they certainly have some powers and trainings and uses of the dark side, it's not like we should assume they have the exact same talents as jedis (including, apparently, lightsaber fighting).

The new core three were terrific, especially Rey. Is Fin's Lando's kid? Couldn't care less. Don't think it adds anything if he is. Is Rey related to any Skywalkers or Solo's? Probably. My own preference would it be a little more distant - like she is Obi Won's grand daughter. The massive breadcrumbs of her being a Solo or Skywalker clearly are there. I kind of feel like they left so many crumbs both directions that it will be a bit disappointing either way.

Han dying was predictable, but still packed a wallop for me anyways. But this new trio of movies needs to stay focused on the new guys.

I actually also thought Luke might get his lightsaber in the snow there, too. But I liked how it turned out. Obviously folding Luke into the story will be a major theme of the next movie - as will Rey being trained. And the continued fight against the New Order and Snooky.

How does this movie compare to the other six? It's clearly better than 1,2, or 3 (although I liked them all - especially 3). 4, 5, and 6 all have as much sentiment as they do actual quality at this stage. I've never thought 5 was the best one - I actually think it might be the worst of those three. But I do feel this one holds up well with those. It's in the conversation and that alone is a testament to it's greatness.

[moonpie23]

i couldn't place it at first, but, seriously...Kylo Ren was in John Carpenter's VAMPIRES

[DukeDevil]

So I've gotten a second viewing in, and here's a couple thoughts and questions

1) does starkiller base go from solar system to solar system to use up suns? Or does it drain it's sun to a certain amount to charge and then fire? I got the impression that the planet didn't move...but if that's the case and it uses up it's own sun entirely to fire a single burst then it's sort of a single shot weapon is it not? The name, starkiller, makes me think it uses up the star entirely and then moves on to another. Anyone have any insight?

2) If it does use up its sun...then do all the planets in that solar system just...float away?

3) I found it a bit more believable that Ren could be battled by Rey this time. She clearly can handle herself with melee weapons, as she shows in the beginning when they try to take BB-8 from her, and she's always carrying around that staff...plus I kind of forgot that the way Ren got injured was by chewbacca's bowcaster. They made a point to show how powerful it was the whole movie, and Ren took a hit right to the gut (other shots from it sent 2-3 stormtroopers flying). Plus I strongly suspect Rey has force history that has been hidden/forgotten/mind wiped/plot deviced.

4) I had a viewing of the original trilogy with a friend who had never seen any, and the reaction to "I am your father" was...oh man. It made me realize that even on my first viewing of ESB, I already knew Vader was the father just because "I am your father" was just a famous line. It made me a bit jealous. I wish I videotaped her reaction...it was amazing.

5) For those of you who want to get someone caught up and don't really want to have them watch all of the prequels, I suggest the following (1st) order: Episode 4, Episode 5, Star Wars, a phantom edit (2 hour edited version of the prequels with a lot of the garbage removed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9LEhOZZbuk, Episode 6. This allows the prequels to serve as a flashback sort of thing without ruining the surprise of Vader.

6) Did R2D2 coming back out from low power state have to do with Rey being around, sharing DNA with Luke possibly? On second thought, if that were the case, Leia's presence would do the same thing.

7) Man this movie was great.

[DukeDevil]

Reddit thread seems to be split on the question of starkiller base being able to move or not as well.

On that note, a great quote:
"If you have a weapon that needs to destroy a sun to fire, why even have the weapon? Just cruise on over to the system you want to destroy and suck up its sun. The planet will quickly die with no sun and you can use that energy to power a shipyard or imperial pina colada machine or something useful."

I can just imagine a stormtrooper behind a bar shaking up nice frozen sun powered drink.

[JohnGalt]

Again, I really enjoyed the movie. Thinking back 24 hours later, only two things bothered me:

- Somehow, Han's death was incredibly not moving. I felt it was overly forshadowed and I never thought for a second Kylo Ren would go home again.

- Kylo Ren without the mask is about as scary and intimidating as Zack Braff in an episode of Scrubs. He just looks like a petulant teenager who got grounded and can't go out with his friends.

- One other gripe... why is Darth Solo's motivation supposed to be "grandfather worship?" It isn't like Vader build some great legacy. He rose to power and fell in 20 years, leaving behind a fractured empire and two destroyed battle stations.

Finally saw it and I agree on all three points above although I think the first can be explained by the relative certainty that Han was going down. Since it wasn't any real surprise it took away from any personal emotional experience for me. That being said, I actually rather enjoyed the 'gentle face caress while pierced with light saber' move that Han made his last. I thought it was pretty heavy.


But even as is, Vader was the biggest badass in the galaxy for 20 years. I could see how his grandchild might become obsessed with or even revere him.

But ultimately he betrayed the dark side and reverted to the light, something Ren indicated he was struggling with on multiple occasions. I could understand having the melted Vader mask as a tangible reminder to betrayal (i.e. motivation to complete his dark side training) or an example not to follow but to emulate him seems odd. I guess in fairness there are only so many truly evil folks in the universe so he's only working with what he's got but...well...seems some pretty enormous foreshadowing. And IMO we don't need any more parallels.


Took my son to see the movie yesterday and we both enjoyed it...

So what did I like about this movie? Well I thought the pacing was excellent, no dead spots in this movie at all. I thought the new actors who played Rey and Finn were solid and I also thought Ford was solid as well. The score was up to your usual Star Wars standard as was the cinematography.

So what bothers me about this film? Kylo Ren for starters...I guess that's Star Wars version of a M.I.R.V.

I'm sure this movie is going to make tons of money and I'm sure I'll go see the next episode, but this isn't a classic in any way, shape or form.

This more/less sums up my viewpoint. I think everyone is having a very difficult time looking past the movie's intensely nostalgic undertones/storyline and seeing it for what it was: a good, but not exceptional film. The small parallels (eg Mos's bar music, the X-wing pilots, Admiral Ackbar, etc) padded the big ones (orphan kid on a desert planet, bad dude with a mask/intimidating voice, Death Star, etc) extremely cleverly, all of which contributed to my general impression that while I was sort of disappointed, I still mostly enjoyed it. This was despite my feeling that several of the castings were quite poor and several of the key moments were quite flat.

[Reddevil]

Depends how you look at it. I have watched Episodes 4,5,6,7 within the last 2 weeks. Episode 7 is better than Empire on several dimensions - acting, writing, special effects among them. I think an objective, fresh viewing of the 2 side by side would suggest that 7 may be better (or at least that it's reasonable to see it as better).

If you are talking about impact relative to context (how it seemed at the time when it was released), then it is easier to make the case for Empire being superior.
My kids, for example, who are new to the series saw Episode 7 as clearly far superior to any of the originals.

This is a nice post. Remember how it felt knowing you had to wait 3 or 4 years to see the next one? Time feels different at different ages too. Now we have waited - what - 32 years for this one? Because of this, I found VII very satisfying - redundancy and all. It felt right just seeing them again. The story was also very good. It got me in touch with my inner child. For that alone I loved it. I remember distinctly how I felt in 1977 as a 13 year old watching something incredible. I grew up on Star Trek and before the movies came out - nothing like these effects had ever been seen. It was jaw dropping and spectacular. I'm glad it is back. I thought is was very well done and is in good hands.

[Olympic Fan]

I was dragged by my family to the theater Sunday to see this. I obviously wasn't as gung-ho about this as many of you are, but I also entered with low expectations which helped.

I'm my view, it was okay -- better by far than the terrible episodes 1-2-3 ... not nearly as good as 4-5. About the same as the wildly uneven Episode 6

I agree with the Time Magazine reviewer who said the filmmakers had two options going in -- to try and meet the expectations of the fan boys or to try and surprise and amaze us.

Clearly, they took the first option and as such did a pretty good job. But the first two films did shock and amaze us. That's what made the franchise what it is. Yeah, 4-5 might look a little stale now to those who grew up in their shadow, but at the time, they were stunning achievements. The moment in Empire when Vader tells Luke "I am your father" is still the pivotal moment in the series. The dark ending -- with Hans frozen in carbonite and a very disturbed Luke fitting on his mechanical hand was a high point in the series.

I pretty much liked the new characters ... okay, Poe seemed a bit bland and stereotyped. Maybe his character will flesh out in future episodes. I thought Ben Solo was a pretty weak villain, but an interesting character with his struggles to suppress the good side of his nature. I'll be interested to learn more about Snope .. I like the idea somebody suggested earlier that he is in fact very small and used the holorgraphic projection to make himself seem oversized.

I guess the thing I liked best about Episode No. 7 is that it completely ignores 1-3. You really should know the films 4-6 to understand No. 7, but if you never saw or heard of Episodes 1-3 (and I envy you if that's the case), but would have no impact on viewing or understanding this film. That's one of the reasons why I think we'll find that Rey is Luke's daughter -- the prohibition against Jedi marrying is from one of those first three non-existent films. Just as young Luke was left on a desert planet to protect him, Rey was left on a desert planet at a young age. She wasn't abandoned there -- she was left with some semblance of a family (just like Luke was left with his aunt and uncle). Something happened to the family -- we do see the belief dream/flashback of her been ripped from her family at a very young age. I don't buy any of the "mind wipe" theories or the idea that she trained with Luke. No way she is Hans and Leia's daughter ... one of them would have recognized her.

I have been reading about some celebrity cameos -- I guess the big one is Daniel Craig, who appears as a storm trooper -- No. JB-007 (he's the one that Rey forces to release her by using mind control -- Craig even has a few lines). Simon Pegg is in the cast list, so I guess that doesn't count as a cameo. Bill Hader shows up a "voice consultant" for BB8. There are voice overs from Alex Guiness and Frank Oz that were taken from earlier films ... Ewan McGregor recorded a new line for this film. I may have missed some. A bunch of Game of Thrones actors have minor parts, but as far as I can see they were credited. Billie Lourd is credited for a small role -- but what's interesting is that she has a very similar hairdo to the one her mother (Carrie Fisher) wore in Episode IV -- the famous earmuff buns.

[JasonEvans]

Simon Pegg is in the cast list, so I guess that doesn't count as a cameo.

Pegg played an alien character in the film, actually a fairly significant one. He played Unkar Plutt, the junkyard boss on Jakku who pays for scavenged junk with food rations. He's the guy who owns the Millennium Falcon, before Rey and Finn take it.

Here he is and here is also an image of Pegg on set playing the character.
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/A3r8AQyCzKSx.jpg

-Jason "the Daniel Craig cameo is Awesome!!" Evans

[cf-62]

Best Star Wars ever and I'm not sure it's even close.

The map to Luke was a little hokey, but I' hoping for an explanation in the next films.

My biggest issue, which Jason touched on and we have seen multiple times throughout the Star Wars series, is how Fin and Rey were able to duel with Kylo Ren. Kylo is a trained Sith (Not sure why Rena and Snoke would be something other than Sith, btw??) so he should destroy either in a duel. Multiple times throughout the movie series people with little to no training are able to hold off/beat people with far significant experience.

Also I'm not sure Ren's fits of rage are all tat new. Vader used to have them as well. Sith use emotions, Jedi do not.

Amazing film. Can't wait to see it again.

I'm not sure you can put "best film of the franchise" tag on a film that was essentially homage to Star Wars. Also, I can tell you liked it - planning on seeing it again.

But this is where the film falls down IMHO. I would see Star Wars and Empire 10 times this week if my wife had bought me the new Blu-Rays, even though I've seen them enough to know the lines. I can't say I'm even planning on seeing Ep. VII a second time.

[Wander]

I'm not sure you can put "best film of the franchise" tag on a film that was essentially homage to Star Wars. Also, I can tell you liked it - planning on seeing it again.

But this is where the film falls down IMHO. I would see Star Wars and Empire 10 times this week if my wife had bought me the new Blu-Rays, even though I've seen them enough to know the lines. I can't say I'm even planning on seeing Ep. VII a second time.

I strongly agree on your first point - there's no way you can rank this above Episode 4 given how similar it was. I don't know what my exact ranking of the films are, other than to say that the easy choices for me are Episode 4 at the top and Episode 2 at the bottom.

But I disagree with your second point. In fact, The Force Awakens may be the only movie I can remember where it's completely normal, common, and socially acceptable to say that you're going to see it again in theaters. The amount of people I know who are saying that (including myself) is truly insane.

[DUKIECB]

But I disagree with your second point. In fact, The Force Awakens may be the only movie I can remember where it's completely normal, common, and socially acceptable to say that you're going to see it again in theaters. The amount of people I know who are saying that (including myself) is truly insane.Yep, repeat viewings are going to be huge with this movie. I have never seen more than a couple movies more than 1 time in a theater but I've seen Ep. VIII 3 times already!

[gurufrisbee]

Just got back from watching it a second time (this time on IMAX with just the oldest daughter).

Loved it just as much, if not more.

Here is why I think it absolutely can be considered in the "best of the franchise" discussion even though so much is an homage to IV.

A) The special effects are better than ever and it's not even close.

B) There are some very significant differences from IV that I think not only work well but make it distinctly different.

C) I think in it's efforts to homage to IV it actually IMPROVES upon the pieces that from IV that it does that with.

D) There was never a real clear winner between IV, V, and VI for me anyways (the way some talk about V I imagine it would be hard to even consider it not being the best).

[cf-62]

I strongly agree on your first point - there's no way you can rank this above Episode 4 given how similar it was. I don't know what my exact ranking of the films are, other than to say that the easy choices for me are Episode 4 at the top and Episode 2 at the bottom.

But I disagree with your second point. In fact, The Force Awakens may be the only movie I can remember where it's completely normal, common, and socially acceptable to say that you're going to see it again in theaters. The amount of people I know who are saying that (including myself) is truly insane.

First of all, I'm not sure what you even MEAN by it's "socially acceptable" to say you're going to see it again.

Second of all, I present to you Avatar and Titanic - both of which made their bones by people seeing them 2, 3, 4 times.

Look, if you're under the age of 35 (40), then this is your first Star Wars movie experience that is actually STAR WARS. So I'm willing to give a naivete pass. But to say it's better because it's normal, common, and socially acceptable to say you'll see it again? I better check my twitter feed to make sure it's got the right seeitagain hashtag I guess.

[cf-62]

Just got back from watching it a second time (this time on IMAX with just the oldest daughter).

Loved it just as much, if not more.

Here is why I think it absolutely can be considered in the "best of the franchise" discussion even though so much is an homage to IV.

A) The special effects are better than ever and it's not even close.

B) There are some very significant differences from IV that I think not only work well but make it distinctly different.

C) I think in it's efforts to homage to IV it actually IMPROVES upon the pieces that from IV that it does that with.

D) There was never a real clear winner between IV, V, and VI for me anyways (the way some talk about V I imagine it would be hard to even consider it not being the best).

A - don't care. Tattoine, Land Gliders, Mos Eisley, Falcon, Death Star, Hoth, Asteroids, and Cloud City good enough. If you compare effects to what's available at the time in the industry, Star Wars is the much more innovative film (That's why IL&M exists - because there was NOBODY that could provide the special effects needed)

B - Yes, it's not a remake, it's homage. I expect there to be differences.

C - I think you're stretching here. Some of them are great ("What about that one? It's a piece of junk. Boom! The junk will have to do"). Most fall a little short (Luke / Ben relationship vs. Rey & Han. In Star Wars, there was audible "no"s coming from the audience, not just Luke, when Ben died. In my IMAX screening, there wasn't a reaction at all from the audience when Ben killed Han. I felt even Qui Gon Jinn was a more surprising tragic end.

But the scenes from Star Wars are iconic, which -- again, to old me -- don't carry much through this one. Except for Han's death which (as many have pointed out) was the worst kept secret of all time, so wasn't much of a shock.

Seriously, I'll just rattle them off:
Blockade Runner (corridor battle, Vadar entry, Princess defiance)
Droids escape (crash, Jawas, Luke)
Search for Ben (missing R2, Sandpeople, The Force)
Attack of the StormTroopers
Mos Eisley (Mind Trick, Cantina, Escape)
Capture (Alderaan, Small Moon, Tractor Beam)
....

And while I appreciate JJ Abrams' Alias and Lost method of setting up back stories, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back laid the bombshell of bombshells on the world -- and did so without doing the "here's a mysterious background we're going to keep from you so you'll have to see the next film."

D - Well, if the Ewoks don't turn you off, then I guess you could at least include VI in the discussion. But by then Lucas had started Lucas-fying the whole thing (toy sales biggest priority among other problems).

But at the end of the day, the Empire Strikes Back experience was by far the most amazing 3 hours in a movie theatre, only 3 years after Star Wars was the most amazing three hours ever spent in a movie theatre.

I put Ep VII at third place (just behind Star Wars). I'm excited that it's a great movie, and the first theatrical experience in 30 years worthy of the name Star Wars.

But it's no Empire.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A - don't care. Tattoine, Land Gliders, Mos Eisley, Falcon, Death Star, Hoth, Asteroids, and Cloud City good enough. If you compare effects to what's available at the time in the industry, Star Wars is the much more innovative film (That's why IL&M exists - because there was NOBODY that could provide the special effects needed)

B - Yes, it's not a remake, it's homage. I expect there to be differences.

C - I think you're stretching here. Some of them are great ("What about that one? It's a piece of junk. Boom! The junk will have to do"). Most fall a little short (Luke / Ben relationship vs. Rey & Han. In Star Wars, there was audible "no"s coming from the audience, not just Luke, when Ben died. In my IMAX screening, there wasn't a reaction at all from the audience when Ben killed Han. I felt even Qui Gon Jinn was a more surprising tragic end.

But the scenes from Star Wars are iconic, which -- again, to old me -- don't carry much through this one. Except for Han's death which (as many have pointed out) was the worst kept secret of all time, so wasn't much of a shock.

Seriously, I'll just rattle them off:
Blockade Runner (corridor battle, Vadar entry, Princess defiance)
Droids escape (crash, Jawas, Luke)
Search for Ben (missing R2, Sandpeople, The Force)
Attack of the StormTroopers
Mos Eisley (Mind Trick, Cantina, Escape)
Capture (Alderaan, Small Moon, Tractor Beam)
...

And while I appreciate JJ Abrams' Alias and Lost method of setting up back stories, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back laid the bombshell of bombshells on the world -- and did so without doing the "here's a mysterious background we're going to keep from you so you'll have to see the next film."

D - Well, if the Ewoks don't turn you off, then I guess you could at least include VI in the discussion. But by then Lucas had started Lucas-fying the whole thing (toy sales biggest priority among other problems).

But at the end of the day, the Empire Strikes Back experience was by far the most amazing 3 hours in a movie theatre, only 3 years after Star Wars was the most amazing three hours ever spent in a movie theatre.

I put Ep VII at third place (just behind Star Wars). I'm excited that it's a great movie, and the first theatrical experience in 30 years worthy of the name Star Wars.

But it's no Empire.

Empire is thr best in my book and will be until someone really knocks my socks off.

Jedi was more of an unevitable conclusion, plus teddy bears.

Han's death, while not "spoiled" for me lacked any gravitas. How unlikely and disappointing would it have been if Han went to Ren and said "let's go home" and Ren had said "meh. Okay."

Really, what's the last surprising thing that happened in Star Wars? Obi Wan's death was an unexpected gut shot. I don't think anyone really though Return if the Jedi was going to end with Luke joining the Emperor. I guess it was shocking (ha) when Vader chucked the Emperor off the edge to save Luke, but only becausr he had done nothing remotely redemptive in the previous 8 hours of film.

In the prequels, characters were set up and knocked down so fast, you barely cared about them (Qi-Gon? Maul? Christopher Lee? Angry 6-armed droid?). And the overarcing story of Anakin had an ending we knew from before the screen crawl of the first prequel.

"I am your father" is one of the great surprising reveals of all time, but I think it falsely tags Star Wars as a surprising universe.

[gurufrisbee]

Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Empire for me has several shortcomings. After they leave Hoth, Han/Leia/Chewy/droids have one of the most boring, do nothing movies of the entire series. Other than the gag worthy 'love' movie in II, it's the biggest snoozefest for major characters in seven movies. "I am your father" certainly was a bombshell but Vader has no emotional content at that stage for me so it's not that devastating (Han being frozen is much more impactful - even though it kind of feels like an extension of a movie full of Han not doing anything at that stage). Plus expecting the surprises in the 7th movie to be the same as in the 1st or even 2nd movies released in a series is just silly. And sure, I like the Ewoks. Why not? They were fun and they helped the good guys win in some entertaining (and a little touching) ways. So no, for me IV, V, and VI are all pretty comprable - and VII easily is in the same range with them. You can rattle off scenes from IV and say only Han's death compares, but I would easily say the Poe rescue, the Kylo-Rey mind reading, the Kylo-Rey lightsaber fight, the escape from Jakku in the Falcon, the Han-Leia meeting, the final scene - all easily on par with any of those.

Again, if you're obsessed with nothing ever being as good as V, then you aren't in the same boat and won't be. But there is nothing that says you have to go into it with that perspective.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Empire for me has several shortcomings. After they leave Hoth, Han/Leia/Chewy/droids have one of the most boring, do nothing movies of the entire series. Other than the gag worthy 'love' movie in II, it's the biggest snoozefest for major characters in seven movies. "I am your father" certainly was a bombshell but Vader has no emotional content at that stage for me so it's not that devastating (Han being frozen is much more impactful - even though it kind of feels like an extension of a movie full of Han not doing anything at that stage). Plus expecting the surprises in the 7th movie to be the same as in the 1st or even 2nd movies released in a series is just silly. And sure, I like the Ewoks. Why not? They were fun and they helped the good guys win in some entertaining (and a little touching) ways. So no, for me IV, V, and VI are all pretty comprable - and VII easily is in the same range with them. You can rattle off scenes from IV and say only Han's death compares, but I would easily say the Poe rescue, the Kylo-Rey mind reading, the Kylo-Rey lightsaber fight, the escape from Jakku in the Falcon, the Han-Leia meeting, the final scene - all easily on par with any of those.

Again, if you're obsessed with nothing ever being as good as V, then you aren't in the same boat and won't be. But there is nothing that says you have to go into it with that perspective.

My most exhilarating moment in VII was when Rey flipped the Falcon on its back to get Finn a clear shot with the canons that were stuck. That was friggin' cool.

Personally, Empire was a great extension and expansion of the Star Wars universe. It wasn't just the "father" moment (I referenced that above mostly for the uniqueness of the "WTF" factor). It was the tautauns, the ice planet, the introduction of Yoda, Cloud City, Lando, nerfherder jokes, the Force being used to lift X-Wings, and - most impressionably for me - the novelty of the good guys LOSING! At the end of the movie, Luke's injured and confused, Leia is heartbroken, Han is frozen, and Yoda is disappointed in Luke for following his emotions and not completing his training.

I'm not saying "Empire is the best thing ever forever," I'm saying that I liked it a lot more than the teddy bears and non-surprises of Jedi, and that until another movie is better, it's my favorite of the series.

[davekay1971]

Hmmm, Star Wars vs. Empire...the age old battle resumes!

My timing on those two was that Star Wars came out when I was 6, Empire when I was 10 (roughly). Star Wars blew me away with all this COOL stuff. The droids and aliens and LIGHT SABERS and good guys moving things with their mind and space battles between all different kinds of ships...it was the ultimate kid cool movie.

Then Empire Strikes Back came out and we all had to grow up and deal with some harsh reality. Yeah, the Rebels blew up the Death Star. And yeah, Luke was starting to learn the force. But now the Empire was good and ticked off, and the Empire was a whole lot more powerful than the Rebels. So, what happens? The Empire finds the rebels, roots them out, and then chases them all over the galaxy. And Luke gets suckered into a mano-a-mano with Vader and gets his rear-end absolutely kicked.

Star Wars was a more action packed, light-hearted, fun movie, start to finish. Empire came along and kicked sand in your face, smacked you around, and told you to life is hard and you'd better get used to it. Empire sticks with me more as a movie, because Darth Vader was an absolutely terrifying bad guy at that age. He's going to find you. And he's going to beat you down (or just force-choke you).

My problem with Return of the Jedi was never the Ewoks. It's what they did to Vader. From his first interaction with Luke in the movie, he's neutered. The change in his character would have made more sense if Luke had shocked the world (and Vader) in ESB by shouting at him, "I AM your son!" rather than the other way around. But no, Vader knew Luke was his son, and it didn't stop him from doing his honest best to either capture or kill Luke and destroy everything Luke cared about in ESB. But, by the beginning of Return of the Jedi, he's played as being this old, broken, sorrowful guy torn between his enslavement to the Emperor and his love for his son. How did that happen?

[JasonEvans]

My problem with Return of the Jedi was never the Ewoks. It's what they did to Vader. From his first interaction with Luke in the movie, he's neutered. The change in his character would have made more sense if Luke had shocked the world (and Vader) in ESB by shouting at him, "I AM your son!" rather than the other way around. But no, Vader knew Luke was his son, and it didn't stop him from doing his honest best to either capture or kill Luke and destroy everything Luke cared about in ESB. But, by the beginning of Return of the Jedi, he's played as being this old, broken, sorrowful guy torn between his enslavement to the Emperor and his love for his son. How did that happen?

Well, considering Anakin pre-Vader goes from a mildly conflicted Jedi who is worried about his wife to a guy willing to slaughter a room full of innocent 5-year-olds in the span of about 3 seconds (he is just standing there watching and then he suddenly chops off Mace Windu's hand and instantly becomes a full-on murderous Sith), I hardly think the mild turn in Jedi is all that shocking. Of course, that is largely because RotSith made no sense (it is only marginally better than I and II which are truly godawful), but still it goes with Lucas' post-Empire storytelling ability... which was sorely lacking.

-Jason "Sorry, I can never resist a chance to rag on the stupidity of Anakin's turn in Sith. Is there anyone on the planet who is not thrilled that Lucas was given no say at all in the new films?" Evans

[wilko]

Is there anyone on the planet who is not thrilled that Lucas was given no say at all in the new films?"

George got his billions. He knew what he was doing when he signed it over. No tears for him.

However just to say "He had too much Vader in him" for the bad guy being bad.... is a bit of weak tea for embracing the dark side.
It goes along with your description of Anakin who does it all at once in a flurry.

What would drive that... make a young man angry and turn to the darkside is interesting background...
I'm rooting for Chewie to be a female wookie and an angsty teen walked in during a tryst and it put all of these pieces in play.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

George got his billions. He knew what he was doing when he signed it over. No tears for him.

However just to say "He had too much Vader in him" for the bad guy being bad... is a bit of weak tea for embracing the dark side.
It goes along with your description of Anakin who does it all at once in a flurry.

What would drive that... make a young man angry and turn to the darkside is interesting background...
I'm rooting for Chewie to be a female wookie and an angsty teen walked in during a tryst and it put all of these pieces in play.

Similarly, I'm confounded by Finn's "come to Jesus" moment with the Stormtroopers. Not sure why he of the thousands/millions/billions of troops would be the one to pull his head out of the sand and say "huh, maybe we aren't the good guys."

As I mentioned upthread, I find Kylo Ren's motivations a bit confounding (is it really just hero worship of his Grandfather?) but if that is the trade off for not having to watch 8 hours of backstory... I'm fine with not knowing.

- yes, I'm talking out both sides of my mouth here a bit.... but my point being that sudden changes in character are a bit hard to swallow as an audience.

[cato]

Similarly, I'm confounded by Finn's "come to Jesus" moment with the Stormtroopers. Not sure why he of the thousands/millions/billions of troops would be the one to pull his head out of the sand and say "huh, maybe we aren't the good guys."

As I mentioned upthread, I find Kylo Ren's motivations a bit confounding (is it really just hero worship of his Grandfather?) but if that is the trade off for not having to watch 8 hours of backstory... I'm fine with not knowing.

- yes, I'm talking out both sides of my mouth here a bit... but my point being that sudden changes in character are a bit hard to swallow as an audience.

I do not think Finn was the first storm trooper to pull his head out of the sand. It was implied that this was something that had happened before with other storm troopers, and that the officers were on the look out for this type of rebellious behavior.

I think Ren's motivations were a thirst for power, and perhaps too much fear. THAT is why he had too much Vader in him. Not hero worship.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I do not think Finn was the first storm trooper to pull his head out of the sand. It was implied that this was something that had happened before with other storm troopers, and that the officers were on the look out for this type of rebellious behavior.

That would be interesting - will check for it on second watching




I think Ren's motivations were a thirst for power, and perhaps too much fear. THAT is why he had too much Vader in him. Not hero worship.

I disagree. His fawning over the melted mask speaks to me of strange devotion.

[davekay1971]

Well, considering Anakin pre-Vader goes from a mildly conflicted Jedi who is worried about his wife to a guy willing to slaughter a room full of innocent 5-year-olds in the span of about 3 seconds (he is just standing there watching and then he suddenly chops off Mace Windu's hand and instantly becomes a full-on murderous Sith), I hardly think the mild turn in Jedi is all that shocking. Of course, that is largely because RotSith made no sense (it is only marginally better than I and II which are truly godawful), but still it goes with Lucas' post-Empire storytelling ability... which was sorely lacking.

-Jason "Sorry, I can never resist a chance to rag on the stupidity of Anakin's turn in Sith. Is there anyone on the planet who is not thrilled that Lucas was given no say at all in the new films?" Evans

Agreed the Anakin turn was more poorly executed. It was actually worse on multiple levels because the entire Episode 1-3 story arc was supposed to be about Anakin's fall from grace as he goes from promising young Jedi to Darth Vader. Lucas made 3 movies centered around one story and he utterly screwed up that one story. Epic writing failure. All the other writing failures in that trilogy - the boring political backstory, the failed attempt to show any chemistry between Anakin and Padme, Midichlorians, Jar Jar Binks, pale in comparison to his failure to deliver on the central, pivotal story which the entire trilogy was constructed to tell. It's as monumental of a failure as if Tolkien/Peter Jackson had screwed up Frodo's struggle with the Ring, such that Frodo was just happily traipsing along all the way to Mount Doom and, only at that moment, gave us any hint that the Ring was working on his will, then suddenly decided to claim the ring for his own.

However, the Anakin thing doesn't bother me as a movie-goer because the entire Ep 1-3 trilogy was such a charlie-foxtrot from the get-go that I could have cared less what Anakin did or why he did it by the time Episode 3 rolled around.

[moonpie23]

my money is on chewey to avenge han's death.....just when you least expect it...

[BD80]

my money is on chewey to avenge han's death....just when you least expect it...

You never expect the Wookie Inquisition

[Wander]

my money is on chewey to avenge han's death...just when you least expect it...

What kind of odds can I get for Kylo Ren surviving the trilogy? Unlikely but I think I will put my money on that. Star Wars is a redemption story, but they need to make it different from the original trilogy somehow, so...

[OldPhiKap]

What kind of odds can I get for Kylo Ren surviving the trilogy? Unlikely but I think I will put my money on that. Star Wars is a redemption story, but they need to make it different from the original trilogy somehow, so...

"Never tell me the odds"

[davekay1971]

my money is on chewey to avenge han's death....just when you least expect it...

Chewie's dialogue for SW IX: "Arrrhwwwrhhhhrwrrrhhrgggrhhhh"

Subtitles read: "Hello, my name is Chewbacca. You killed my best friend. Prepare to die."

[mkirsh]

Saw it last night. Imax 3d, and every seat was filled on a Tuesday night. I think this movie is going to do well at the box office...

Overall I thought it was great. I have a very hard time ranking these movies, against one another or to other films. I saw the originals as a kid and was in awe of them, so nothing can ever replace them, however, if I were 10 years old today and watched all 7 in a row, I could see how the Force Awakens could be considered the best. Also making it hard is that these films really can't be evaluated on a stand alone basis - what happens in the next 2 films could change my perception of this movie (ie, who are Rey's parents, does Finn have to be related to one of the two prominent black characters in the series or could he actually be from one of the 100+ billion other families in the universe, who is Snope, etc).

My scattered thoughts on the movie and this thread are below:

While there was plenty of hokiness early on, particularly R2D2 low power mode, and that the Millennium Falcon, a space ship famous enough to be known by name to an orphan on a remote planet, was laying in a junk yard not having been flown in years (yet fully gassed up with the keys in the ignition apparently), the one that bothered me the most was Maz's cantina, and the fact that she had Anakin's/Luke's original light saber in a box in the basement (presumably next to the crate containing the arc of the covenant.) Seeing that light saber used in the trailers, I had hoped for a cooler backstory about how that got into Finn and Rey's hands, and instead they just found it in grandma's attic. Lost opportunity there IMO.

There has been debate over whether Kylo Ren was bad-*** enough, especially compared to Vader. I kind of like that he was kind of a Vader fanboy/poser - that he was powerful with the force and could terrorize helpless villagers, but had limited combat, leadership, or tactical skills, and when faced up against another force-powerful being got scared. The scene where Rey rejects his mind probing was really great, and exposed vulnerability in Ren, and I have no problems with Finn and Rey holding their own somewhat against a wounded and bleeding Ren. Also, Vader was cool and scary in IV, but not yet the terrifying incarnate of evil that he becomes in Empire. In IV he was commanded around by Tarkin (Leia even said "leashed" at one point), had random commanders back talk him in the Death Star conference room (who got force choked, but should have been too scared to even say anything at all), and his only battle scene was killing an old guy who basically let him win. It wasn't until Empire that Vader was fully unleashed on screen, so Ren has room to grow as well.

I have never read the EU stuff, but did know those books contained Leia/Han twins, where the son turned evil and the daughter saved the galaxy, so it wasn't a huge surprise to me to have Ren be a Solo (also explains how he got the Vader mask - he stole it from Uncle Luke), but it also made me on the lookout for Rey being his sister. It seemed to me that every time Leia or Han would have the opportunity to talk about her the scene was cut away quickly, so I think that is certainly a possibility, but still lean towards her being Luke's daughter.

Upthread someone said that you don't need to have seen the prequel trilogy at all to understand this movie, but the one comparison that hit me the most was Rey and Episode I Anakin - both are incredibly strong natural force users, both instinctive and natural pilots (Falcon vs pod-racer), both are very mechanically inclined (Anakin built his pod-racer and C3P0). Maybe she is same lineage, or a totally new character, or maybe JJ Abrams will really piss people off and make her a midichlorian birth as well.

During the fight scene in the snow, I had the same thought that Udaman had - that the lightsaber would fly into Luke's hand, who had sensed the same "awakening" in the force and came back to save the day. However, I liked that Rey held her own and didn't need saving. I also thought the movie could have ended with the quest for Luke being up in the air, as Mark Hamill with no lines of dialog didn't do much for me.

Lastly, C3P0 is generally annoying, but I liked the red arm bit. It was a shout out to the fact that he basically got torn apart in every movie (sand people in IV, storm trooper blast in V, on Jabba's barge in VI), so basically 30 years later and he's still up to his old tricks.

[Udaman]

Have now seen it 3 times (once alone, once with kids, once on X-mas day as relatives got tickets for everyone).

I must admit this movie holds up pretty well on multiple viewings. I was never really bored on any of the repeat sittings.

I'll add that I think the series will really miss Han's character. He was the heart and soul of 4,5 and 6, and had almost every great line/scene in The Force Awakens. His character is just so firmly believable, vulnerable, cocky and likeable. One of the main problems with the first three is that nobody came even close to making you care about them as Han did. Now he's gone from these as well.

Still find it hard to believe that Finn didn't get immediately killed by Ren with the lightsaber. I can now, almost, buy that Rey held her own...she was clearly strong with the Force, and at the beginning of her fight, Ren was just messing with her (and dominating), wanting to try and seduce her over to her side.

Lastly, one thing I caught in the multiple viewings is how they didn't talk about the Force in terms of Good and Evil. It was the Dark Side....and the Light. That was new....and it was said multiple times. Oh, and my son got a BB3 toy for Christmas that rolls around just like the droid in the movie. It's amazing, and it made me realize that none of BB3's scenes were done with CGI. That's pretty cool. And I, um, may need to back track from my comment that Force Awakens won't top Avatar.....

[Reddevil]

While there was plenty of hokiness early on, particularly R2D2 low power mode, and that the Millennium Falcon, a space ship famous enough to be known by name to an orphan on a remote planet, was laying in a junk yard not having been flown in years (yet fully gassed up with the keys in the ignition apparently), the one that bothered me the most was Maz's cantina, and the fact that she had Anakin's/Luke's original light saber in a box in the basement (presumably next to the crate containing the arc of the covenant.) Seeing that light saber used in the trailers, I had hoped for a cooler backstory about how that got into Finn and Rey's hands, and instead they just found it in grandma's attic. Lost opportunity there IMO.

I think Maz said something like, "That is a story for another time." Maybe that will be explained later. Maz could end up being a significant character in some ways - maybe almost Yoda-like in her wisdom.

A random thought I had while watching was that Rey is excellent with a staff. She has Luke's light saber. She needs to build her own as part of her training. Say what you will about Darth Maul, but that double saber was pretty cool. I would not mind seeing a Jedi wield one.

[bjornolf]

Mark Hamill can still very much act - he's one of the best Jokers to date (he does the voice acting on the Arkham video game series and the animated series) and he made a credible appearance in The Kingsman.

He is also solid in the TV series The Flash as Toyman.

His appearances made me wonder why he disappeared from acting so long - he's really talented.

Yes, I love Mark Hamill. Most theories on his disappearance from the big screen involve horrible injuries from an accident he was in during the filming of "Corvette Summer" between New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. Supposedly, he's had a great career on stage. And voice acting.

[bjornolf]

Finn has a deal with the First Order for his services, but then when he sees what the deal would entail, his conscience takes over and he reneges on the deal and performs a rescue instead.

It's highly suggestive...

(And yes, he's black. I see nothing wrong with using that as a clue.)

Plus, Lando's so awesome, we just WANT him to be.

[BD80]

Plus, Lando's so awesome, we just WANT him to be.

Lando was FAR too smooth to have a child as timid as Finn

[bjornolf]

Snoke? He's Gollum. Or Caesar...

Or maybe Palpatine, after he learned immortality...

-jk

I think he's Chaos from Skylanders!

[bjornolf]

I think he's Chaos from Skylanders!

Stupid autocorrect. Kaos, not Chaos!

[bjornolf]

I saw it today. Enjoyed it thoroughly. I noticed that the beam from Starkiller was in several pieces as it flew across the sky. I thought it was bad effects, until I realized it was supposed to be several beams headed to different planets.

My question was how the planet remained survivable:
A. with no sun to heat it.
B. with all its ozone burned up by the sun's energy all passing through it at once.

Would the star that Starkiller "killed" become a black hole?

And why does Starkiller remind me of Unicron?

[davekay1971]

Plus, Lando's so awesome, we just WANT him to be.

Lando was so awesome, he made me want to have a Colt 45.

[HK Dukie]

My question was how the planet remained survivable:
A. with no sun to heat it.
B. with all its ozone burned up by the sun's energy all passing through it at once.

Would the star that Starkiller "killed" become a black hole?


I can't believe I am defending the terrible physics of the Starkiller...

A: The sun's energy went inside the Starkiller therefore energy could be tapped from the Starkiller's new stellar core.

B: No need for protection from the sun's rays anymore with a silly thing called ozone. The whole sun was already sucked up.

C: The blown up star wouldn't become a black hole. It would blow up like the movies demonstrate. Don't just take my word for it (learn how to blow up a planet)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBl9dK40dvw

Now, sucking all the hydrogen and helium from that star and compressing it into a small core within the starkiller might very well have produced a black hole (depending on the radius of the starkiller's core among other things). Then again, there's about 100 things before that point that make this unfeasible in our current understanding of the universe.

So let's just say this happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Anything is possible. (it's a movie)

BTW, the first line of the movie was awesome "This will begin to make things right."-Max Von Sydow

It did and Star Wars is awesome again. If you disagree well then off to the pit of Sarlaac with you, because you are no fun. I love all the debates that everyone is engaging in. It feels like Star Wars is living and breathing again after being in a coma for decades. Just take a deep breath and enjoy.

[BD80]

... BTW, the first line of the movie was awesome "This will begin to make things right."-Max Von Sydow

It did and Star Wars is awesome again. ...

Do you believe this was JJ throwing a little shade at Lucas? I'm torn.

What is finally nice to see is some decent dialogue. New to the series. Lucas' dialogue brought good actors (Alec Guinness, Ewen McGregor) down to the level of bad actors (Hayden Christianson)

[cf-62]

Lastly, one thing I caught in the multiple viewings is how they didn't talk about the Force in terms of Good and Evil. It was the Dark Side...and the Light. That was new...and it was said multiple times.

I think this is could be one of this Disney issues Lucas is being such a prat about. For years now (since Ep I for sure, maybe before), Star Wars weekends at Disney World (maybe DIsneyland, too -- I just don't know) all have the theme of "choosing your side." This drives Empire and Rebel Alliance periphery sales.

But it doesn't go over well if you're picking good or evil. It's simply the Dark Side of the force, or the Light. You also see these themes in some of the licensed ads from Dodge (Some choose the dark side -- others prefer the light) and Toys R Us (I am your father). These exemplify the fact that the Dark Side does not necessarily mean evil, though murder can't exactly be seen as good.

[HK Dukie]

Do you believe this was JJ throwing a little shade at Lucas? I'm torn.

What is finally nice to see is some decent dialogue. New to the series. Lucas' dialogue brought good actors (Alec Guinness, Ewen McGregor) down to the level of bad actors (Hayden Christianson)

Nah, it was A WHOLE LOT of shade! Lucas apparently wanted a story of teenagers for VII-IX. Tried that in I-III and that didn't exactly work out so well. Disney cut that storyline, made a movie for the fans and Lucas went kinda crazy here...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/31/george-lucas-star-wars-disney-white-slaves-charlie-rose/78123226/

Now if Lucas had intended on the following plot line to be in 7-9, then Disney is terrible, and Lucas is the greatest master of the slow reveal in history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy3q9f84EA
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarthJarJar/

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Saw it last night with my wife and 7 & 10 yr old sons. They've watched 1-6 a zillion times on Blueray. But watching them sit literally on the edge of their sits in the theatre last night brought back vague memories of having seen A New Hope in theaters when I was their age. Wonderful film. Amazing experience.

[bjornolf]

I can't believe I am defending the terrible physics of the Starkiller...

A: The sun's energy went inside the Starkiller therefore energy could be tapped from the Starkiller's new stellar core.

B: No need for protection from the sun's rays anymore with a silly thing called ozone. The whole sun was already sucked up.

C: The blown up star wouldn't become a black hole. It would blow up like the movies demonstrate. Don't just take my word for it (learn how to blow up a planet)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBl9dK40dvw

Now, sucking all the hydrogen and helium from that star and compressing it into a small core within the starkiller might very well have produced a black hole (depending on the radius of the starkiller's core among other things). Then again, there's about 100 things before that point that make this unfeasible in our current understanding of the universe.

So let's just say this happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Anything is possible. (it's a movie)

BTW, the first line of the movie was awesome "This will begin to make things right."-Max Von Sydow

It did and Star Wars is awesome again. If you disagree well then off to the pit of Sarlaac with you, because you are no fun. I love all the debates that everyone is engaging in. It feels like Star Wars is living and breathing again after being in a coma for decades. Just take a deep breath and enjoy.

A. It seemed to me that pretty much all the energy went to the beam.

B. I messed that up. I meant that the atmosphere would be burned up and there'd be no breathable air on the surface to breathe.

C. No, not the planet, the STAR. The one that gets everything sucked out of it. Not the planet that gets blown up.

[Olympic Fan]

As long as we're quibbling about details and implausabilities, did anybody notice they are STILL talking about how many parsecs it took for the Falcon to make the Kessel run?

[Wander]

As long as we're quibbling about details and implausabilities, did anybody notice they are STILL talking about how many parsecs it took for the Falcon to make the Kessel run?

Psh. Everyone knows that the number refers to how short of a path you can take through a field of black holes.

(seriously, that's the in-universe explanation to what is an obvious goof by Lucas)

[JNort]

For the Star Wars fans with free time. You can watch in segments or all at once if ya got free time. I found the video entertaining but I love this channel regardless of what they discuss.


Watch "Is The Force Awakens The Best Star Wars Movie? - MOVIE FIGHTS" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/SnsE3fkMLok

[brevity]

So... I'm late to the party.

There is -- was -- a lot going on this thread, and I'm sure most of you have moved on. The movie had a few flaws, but generally I liked it. A few scattered thoughts:

1. I agree with Jason's initial assessment that Episode VII resembles Episode IV in many ways, and would add that Poe Dameron is basically Princess Leia at the beginning: gets secret info, stores it in a droid, gets captured, is subjected to torture, and escapes with the help of a guy in a Stormtrooper suit.

2. If he was so allergic to Episodes I-III, it was a curious choice for JJ Abrams to show Coruscant as the planet that was destroyed (although it was not actually named in this movie).

3. Having an unhinged, reckless bad guy was a nice change here; the Sith were always a little dead inside. But it was a big mistake (in a storytelling sense) for Kylo Ren to reveal his face for Rey. That whole scene was off-putting. The line about him getting what he wants from her, and the way the mind-reading/mind-blocking was depicted was disturbingly intimate. By that point, the movie had given us enough clues about Rey to make us guess these two characters are at least cousins. Anyway, we shouldn't have seen his face until he encountered Han Solo.

4. Too bad Christopher Lee wasn't around/alive for this one. Starkiller Base was basically The Man with the Golden Gun, right? Two 007 references in this movie.

5. Rey's flashback scene with the lightsaber -- Force memory? -- is probably the one scene that will require slow-motion viewing. It's not clear to me if those scenes with Luke and Kylo Ren were her memories, or Luke's, or the lightsaber's, or what. However you look at it, there's fairly damning evidence that Luke knows something about Rey's abandonment on Jakku. Now I want to figure out how far apart in age Kylo and Rey are.

6. I think Abrams' main accomplishment in this film is its deliberate sense of incompleteness and restraint. I was concerned that he would cave to an army of dumb, impatient fans that needed to know who was related to who RIGHT NOW. Never mind that Episode IV never told us a thing about Luke Skywalker's living family, and that we had to wait through three films to put it all together. He's revived a universe worth revisiting, and now I want to see what other people do with it.

That said, I wonder if anyone would object to this Episode VII spoiler thread also becoming an Episode VIII theory thread.

[cf-62]

So... I'm late to the party.

That said, I wonder if anyone would object to this Episode VII spoiler thread also becoming an Episode VIII theory thread.

Honestly, as Ep VII continues to get its first time views by some, and second & third glances by others, over the next few weeks, I would prefer this thread stick to discussions about Ep VII. That CAN include asking questions about where Luke is, and who is related to whom.

But an Ep VIII theory thread starts off with "just how far in the future is it from the end of VII?"

And thus, it could go off in a million different directions that have absolutely nothing to do with EP VII. Just one vote, but if you want to start waxing poetic on 8, let's keep that separate.

[JasonEvans]

Honestly, as Ep VII continues to get its first time views by some, and second & third glances by others, over the next few weeks, I would prefer this thread stick to discussions about Ep VII. That CAN include asking questions about where Luke is, and who is related to whom.

But an Ep VIII theory thread starts off with "just how far in the future is it from the end of VII?"

And thus, it could go off in a million different directions that have absolutely nothing to do with EP VII. Just one vote, but if you want to start waxing poetic on 8, let's keep that separate.

Theories for Ep VIII are futile. What happens in VIII is 100% up in the air and was not determined by anything in VII. There are no special clues to get from the first movie. Those clues do not exist. When JJ was making VII, he likely had only a very vague notion of where the story might go next. Most importantly, I'm not sure there is much in Ep VII that forces Ep VIII into any direction. As a result, Rian Johnson can (and will) take it wherever he wants. Put another way, I doubt there are any clues to be found in VII, because the answers those clues would have given have not been determined. Does that make sense?

I think JJ intentionally did not answer some questions in VII because he did not need to and did not want to. For example, while JJ may have an idea of who he thinks Rey's parents are, Rian could make them just about anyone and would not have trouble fitting it into the story... and JJ is fine with that. His job was to tee it up for Rian, not begin to tell or provide important clues to Rian's story. I'm certain JJ will be consulted by Rian -- after all, JJ did a wonderful job in VII and deserves a prominent role in the future of the franchise -- but what comes next was not written in stone prior to Rian taking over.

-Jason "I think this was among the most repetitive posts I have ever written -- sorry!" Evans

[Wander]

2. If he was so allergic to Episodes I-III, it was a curious choice for JJ Abrams to show Coruscant as the planet that was destroyed (although it was not actually named in this movie).


Coruscant wasn't the planet that was destroyed, although to me that sequence was rushed and the weakest of the movie, so I don't blame anyone for thinking that it was Coruscant. I hope Coruscant does appear in the trilogy at some point... it was one of the good things introduced in the prequels.

[luburch]

Theories for Ep VIII are futile. What happens in VIII is 100% up in the air and was not determined by anything in VII. There are no special clues to get from the first movie. Those clues do not exist. When JJ was making VII, he likely had only a very vague notion of where the story might go next. Most importantly, I'm not sure there is much in Ep VII that forces Ep VIII into any direction. As a result, Rian Johnson can (and will) take it wherever he wants. Put another way, I doubt there are any clues to be found in VII, because the answers those clues would have given have not been determined. Does that make sense?

I think JJ intentionally did not answer some questions in VII because he did not need to and did not want to. For example, while JJ may have an idea of who he thinks Rey's parents are, Rian could make them just about anyone and would not have trouble fitting it into the story... and JJ is fine with that. His job was to tee it up for Rian, not begin to tell or provide important clues to Rian's story. I'm certain JJ will be consulted by Rian -- after all, JJ did a wonderful job in VII and deserves a prominent role in the future of the franchise -- but what comes next was not written in stone prior to Rian taking over.

-Jason "I think this was among the most repetitive posts I have ever written -- sorry!" Evans


Believe Daisy Ridley was quoted in an article saying she had already seen the script for Episode VIII. Not that it matters for the rest of us :(

[OldPhiKap]

Theories for Ep VIII are futile. What happens in VIII is 100% up in the air and was not determined by anything in VII. There are no special clues to get from the first movie. Those clues do not exist. When JJ was making VII, he likely had only a very vague notion of where the story might go next. Most importantly, I'm not sure there is much in Ep VII that forces Ep VIII into any direction. As a result, Rian Johnson can (and will) take it wherever he wants. Put another way, I doubt there are any clues to be found in VII, because the answers those clues would have given have not been determined. Does that make sense?

I think JJ intentionally did not answer some questions in VII because he did not need to and did not want to. For example, while JJ may have an idea of who he thinks Rey's parents are, Rian could make them just about anyone and would not have trouble fitting it into the story... and JJ is fine with that. His job was to tee it up for Rian, not begin to tell or provide important clues to Rian's story. I'm certain JJ will be consulted by Rian -- after all, JJ did a wonderful job in VII and deserves a prominent role in the future of the franchise -- but what comes next was not written in stone prior to Rian taking over.

-Jason "I think this was among the most repetitive posts I have ever written -- sorry!" Evans

I read/saw two different interviews with JJ. In one, it was mentioned that he and the director for the next episodes (Rian Johnson) had some collaboration to ensure a smooth transition of plot during the filming of VI, so it is possible that there are a few things that Rian asked JJ to work in. The second interview with JJ referenced that he did not know much of that backstory and did not feel it necessary. Everyone remembers "I am your father" and "I have a sister" but neither was in the original -- or something to that effect.

I think filming on VIII starts soon (maybe even this month), and I understand that there was more filmed between Rey and Luke by JJ already. So that ball is already in motion, I assume the script is fairly developed and set at this point. Release date is targeted (IIRC) for May, 2017 -- sixteen months from now.

For me, I-III gives the idea of "backstory" a bad taste in my mouth. What I like about VII is that, while it touches on history to make the tie in to the existing Star Wars universe, it is primarily forward-looking. I for one hope we do not have too much 'splaining in lieu of a fresh unfolding story. And why, as much as I love the Han character, am somewhat relieved that we have closed that chapter and are moving on to the next generation. Same, BB-8 for R2-D2 and especially C3PO. Would not mind losing the wookie either, really.

[OldPhiKap]

^^ should be a reference to the filming of VII, not VI, in my first paragraph -- too late to edit.

[crimsondevil]

As long as we're quibbling about details and implausabilities, did anybody notice they are STILL talking about how many parsecs it took for the Falcon to make the Kessel run?

I took it as an in-joke given that it's such a well-known line/goof. I LOLed in the theater.


Coruscant wasn't the planet that was destroyed, although to me that sequence was rushed and the weakest of the movie, so I don't blame anyone for thinking that it was Coruscant. I hope Coruscant does appear in the trilogy at some point... it was one of the good things introduced in the prequels.

Just to add on, apparently it was supposed to be Hosnian Prime, the capital of the new Republic - agree that it was confusing when I saw it. (Wookieepedia link (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Hosnian_system))

[Udaman]

By the way - was at a New Years party and me and a friend cracked each other up hypothesizing that Po and Finn are lovers (the big hug at their reunion, the longing glance as they pass each other before the last battle, the "keep my jacket, it looks good on you"). We are waiting for the Brokeback Mountain parody video that comes out soon.

[freshmanjs]

Second viewing today. A few things were clearer to me than first time:

- After Han Solo was killed, Chewy hit Kylo Ren dead on with his bad-wanker cross bow type blaster. Ren was seriously hurt. That explains part of why he was not totally with it in the final fights
- Ren was, in addition to being physically hurt, emotionally off kilter after killing his father
- Finn did not put up a good fight with the light saber at all. He was terrible at it. He did get a lucky hit on Ren's shoulder, but after that, Ren stopped playing around and took him out very quickly
- The awakening of Rey to her powers was very clearly shown and signaled as she was going through it. She may or may not have had training as a young child, but either way, she is rapidly discovering she is very powerful. This allows her to match Ren (who is immature and not very disciplined) at many of the mental aspects already. As for light saber dueling, she could hang with him when he was badly hurt and unstable, but don't think she could take him at full strength just yet.

All of this made more sense to me 2nd time through vs raising questions the 1st time (why is Finn so good with light saber, how can she already match Ren, etc)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Saw the movie today, finally, and loved it. GF loved it too, she cried in a few spots, so it did a good job with emotions. (One of many things that was lacking in the prequels.) I've happily gone through this whole thread, and have enjoyed all of the questions and "answers", but I'm not going to offer many of my own. That's one of the things I enjoyed about this movie....it has left me wondering and wanting more. I'll enjoy the wonderment until VIII offers up some answers. (And more questions.)



I have been reading about some celebrity cameos -- I guess the big one is Daniel Craig, who appears as a storm trooper -- No. JB-007 (he's the one that Rey forces to release her by using mind control -- Craig even has a few lines). Simon Pegg is in the cast list, so I guess that doesn't count as a cameo. Bill Hader shows up a "voice consultant" for BB8. There are voice overs from Alex Guiness and Frank Oz that were taken from earlier films ... Ewan McGregor recorded a new line for this film. I may have missed some. A bunch of Game of Thrones actors have minor parts, but as far as I can see they were credited. Billie Lourd is credited for a small role -- but what's interesting is that she has a very similar hairdo to the one her mother (Carrie Fisher) wore in Episode IV -- the famous earmuff buns.
I read that quite a few voice actors from both the Clone Wars and Rebels animated series offered their talents as well. I thought that was pretty cool. (I've become hooked on Rebels.)


I think Maz said something like, "That is a story for another time." Maybe that will be explained later. Maz could end up being a significant character in some ways - maybe almost Yoda-like in her wisdom.

Han said that Maz was 1000 years old. That would make her older than Yoda; he kicked it at 900, right? Hell, she could have been his babysitter. She said she not a Jedi, but knew the Force, and she is a large reason why Rey was able to beat back Ren as she stood at the precipice of the cliff. She focused, she "let it in", as Maz had implored her to do.

[BLPOG]

It did and Star Wars is awesome again. If you disagree well then off to the pit of Sarlacc Carkoon, nesting place of the all powerful Sarlacc, with you, because you are no fun. I love all the debates that everyone is engaging in. It feels like Star Wars is living and breathing again after being in a coma for decades. Just take a deep breath and enjoy.

FTFY

[moonpie23]

did everyone see daniel craig and simon pegg?

[devildm]

Just saw it again. Definitely caught a few more things. One thing I wanted to mention in case anyone else noted was that when Rey approached Luke at the end he appeared to be standing in front of/ beside a stone that pretty much looked like the headstone of a grave. It was subtle, but definitely looked different than the other rocks in the area. Possible foreshadowing of a dead wife? He also did not look pleased to see Rey, as though "I tried so hard to keep you out of all this but now your back and have my light-saber."

I could also be reading too much into a random rock.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I could also be reading too much into a random rock.
Mars needs you!!!! They are full of random rocks!

5831


PS...I didn't take Luke's look as upset at all. More of a "who are you, where'd you come from, what are doing here and how did you find my lightsaber? And where's my hand, I want that back too" kind of look.

[OldPhiKap]

Certainly, Luke must have felt her presence and known she was strong with the force. The force is apparently different feeling in different people (Darth saying he had not sensed a presence like Obi Won since . . . . ; Ren saying that he sensed his father). So my guess is that Luke was not surprised, and likely knew the purpose of the visitor's trek to him.

But again, just guessing.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So my guess is that Luke was not surprised, and likely knew the purpose of the visitor's trek to him.

Through the stars, even.

[OldPhiKap]

Through the stars, even.

And yet, it seemed like much less than five years.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And yet, it seemed like much less than five years.
And with less lens flare. :cool:

[wilson]

...I didn't take Luke's look as upset at all. More of a "who are you, where'd you come from, what are doing here and how did you find my lightsaber? And where's my hand, I want that back too" kind of look....and get off my galactic lawn.

[BD80]

...and get off my galactic lawn.

You're disturbing the force ...

[bjornolf]

You're disturbing the force ...

Do not tease happy fu... the force.

[cf-62]

Okay, let's not let another thread get hijacked by banal pun chatter.

Box office news for Ep VII: #1 domestically

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/644833-the-force-awakens-passing-avatar-to-become-the-biggest-film-ever-domestically#/slide/1

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Okay, let's not let another thread get hijacked by banal pun chatter.

Agreed. Just because you are the Obi Wan who thinks it is funny, doesn't mean you have to Force it on the rest of us. Luke out for the bad puns - there's been a real Darth of good ones. And when there's a Sarlacc of humor, your have to remember that there's tauntauns of other places for you to get your Jawas out. Be cool about it - your Rancor is unbecoming. Yoda only one who can hold you accountable so you don't Leia some Tribble jokes.

Oops.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Okay, let's not let another thread get hijacked by banal pun chatter.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, that was probably a name for something and a great pun.

[OldPhiKap]

An old man and a farm kid walk into a bar . . .

. . . And The smuggler shot first.



Still working on the middle part.

[BD80]

An old man and a farm kid walk into a bar . . .

. . . And The smuggler shot first.



Still working on the middle part.

We'll give you 12 parsecs to finish ...

[OldPhiKap]

Why did the Wookie hate going into bars with Han Solo?

Because Han always took the first shot.



bada-bing.

[davekay1971]

Agreed. Just because you are the Obi Wan who thinks it is funny, doesn't mean you have to Force it on the rest of us. Luke out for the bad puns - there's been a real Darth of good ones. And when there's a Sarlacc of humor, your have to remember that there's tauntauns of other places for you to get your Jawas out. Be cool about it - your Rancor is unbecoming. Yoda only one who can hold you accountable so you don't Leia some Tribble jokes.

Oops.

This is very strong work. I tried to spork you but it's a spread the love thing.

There once was a kid from the farm
Who tried to save a girl from harm
He met a fun rogue
Who's style was quite vogue
And who wooed the princess with charm.

[fuse]

I did not keep the link (sorry).

There is a very intriguing speculative piece on the web about who Rey is.

It is well thought out, so much so if true it is a massive, massive spoiler.

[luburch]

I did not keep the link (sorry).

There is a very intriguing speculative piece on the web about who Rey is.

It is well thought out, so much so if true it is a massive, massive spoiler.

Kenobi grandchild?

[Rich]

Here are Mad Magazine's spoilers dating back to 1982. These are a must read for any Star Wars fan. Made me laugh out loud a few times.

http://mightymega.com/2014/12/21/1982-mad-magazine-star-wars-predictions/

How I miss reading Mad Magazine!

[BD80]

Here are Mad Magazine's spoilers dating back to 1982. These are a must read for any Star Wars fan. Made me laugh out loud a few times.

http://mightymega.com/2014/12/21/1982-mad-magazine-star-wars-predictions/

How I miss reading Mad Magazine!

Thank Goodness this is in the "Spoilers!" thread!

It was written 17 years before the prequels and a year before Return of the Jedi, and yet predicts that "The Force" is Luke's father. Only off by one generation.

[davekay1971]

Kenobi grandchild?

Puh-leeze! Midichlorian conception. One of Lucas's great ideas, why not do it again?

(I jest)

I'm going with Luke as the father. That would certainly give him the look he had...which was either (if Rey is his daughter) "oh crap, here's my daughter with my light saber caught up in galactic conflict against my former pupil" or (if Rey is not his daughter) "oh crap, it's a pretty girl, and I have incredibly bad gas right now...oh, and she has my old light saber!"

On a side note, I think Luke, by now, has to really really want to just be done with The Force. His father was corrupted and ultimately died because of being sucked to the dark side. He, himself, had a glimpse of the dark side. His nephew is now on the exact same path as was his father. So it would be perfectly believable (assuming Rey is his daughter) that he would want Rey not only safely tucked well away from Darth Loki, but also never exposed to her own power.

[Edouble]

Here are Mad Magazine's spoilers dating back to 1982. These are a must read for any Star Wars fan. Made me laugh out loud a few times.

http://mightymega.com/2014/12/21/1982-mad-magazine-star-wars-predictions/

How I miss reading Mad Magazine!

Wow, I actually remember that article. It's hilarious! Kudos!

[JasonEvans]

This is beginning to blow up on Twitter. It may be the ultimate troll move of all time!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYcm1NbWkAA6FIS.jpg

[OldPhiKap]

This is beginning to blow up on Twitter. It may be the ultimate troll move of all time!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYcm1NbWkAA6FIS.jpg

That takes a special kind of jerk to do. Just sayin'

[JasonEvans]

That takes a special kind of jerk to do. Just sayin'

Odds that window gets busted by a rock when that car is parked at a mall? 60%? 70? 90?

[Acymetric]

If you don't already know that little bit of trivia by now, how likely is it that you care if you found out?

[Troublemaker]

If you don't already know that little bit of trivia by now, how likely is it that you care if you found out?

True. Plus, let's say you're one of the few diehard Star Wars fans who hasn't seen the movie yet, and you come across that back window. How do you know the owner wasn't just screwing around and giving a fake spoiler? I'd bet you'd go see the movie and still be just as riveted right up until the point when Leia whips out her machine gun and mows down Han Solo.

[Acymetric]

True. Plus, let's say you're one of the few diehard Star Wars fans who hasn't seen the movie yet, and you come across that back window. How do you know the owner wasn't just screwing around and giving a fake spoiler? I'd bet you'd go see the movie and still be just as riveted right up until the point when Leia whips out her machine gun and mows down Han Solo.

It was pretty shocking at first, but upon a second viewing I thought it was tastefully done.

[BD80]

... I'd bet you'd go see the movie and still be just as riveted right up until the point when Leia whips out her machine gun and mows down Han Solo.

The real spoiler is that Leia is wearing her metal bikini when this happens. Of course you can't really see the bikini any more :(

Where was she concealing the machine gun?

[OldPhiKap]

The real spoiler is that Leia is wearing her metal bikini when this happens. Of course you don't really want to see the bikini any more :(


FIFY.

[JasonEvans]

The real spoiler is that Leia is wearing her metal bikini when this happens. Of course you can't really see the bikini any more :(

Where was she concealing the machine gun?

"It was at that moment that everyone realized the thread had jumped the shark."

;)

[bjornolf]

Say hello to my little friend.

[mkirsh]

Hilarious from SNL - Kylo Ren undercover boss

http://youtu.be/FaOSCASqLsE

[Mal]

I like showing up after the thread's already dead.

Finally had the opportunity to take my 9-year-old and my inner 9-year-old this weekend. The former viewer loved every second and wanted to see it again immediately. No quibbles, no complaints, and he knew going in that Han was a goner. As he's the more important target audience for this, his response to the whole experience made me really happy.

The latter viewer perked up, full of rushing nostalgia, at the very first note of music. It was like I had been transported. I remembered instantly who I was with and at which theater I saw Return of the Jedi way back when (my parents tell me they took me to the first two, as well, but clearly they're confused about Ep. IV because I was 3, and I don't honestly remember seeing Empire at 6). Seriously, that first couple seconds was worth the price of admission for me.

As for adult responses/critique, in the rear view, I do sort of regret that there was so much homage/repetition in there. Didn't bother me while watching, even though I noticed all the connections. Rey and Finn are absolutely great characters and hopefully have great adventures together, but that it appears the basic plot thread will revolve around Rey defeating someone she's related to who's defected to the Dark Side, I guess I find a little bit disappointing. I was kind of hoping Kylo would just be some non-Force strong wannabe who gets dispatched to make room for some real baddies in the next couple films, and that the First Order would be a rising power and not already a planet destroying, world controlling juggernaut. Other nitpicks:

- re: the last point, why is the Empire/First Order always depicted only as all-powerful? It's only been 30 years - shouldn't it still be a fledgling new entrant? Maybe it is, I guess (as evidenced by Kylo Ren's maturity status), and we'll be shown more later in flashback or something. But by appearances we're supposed to believe that, a mere three decades after the great dark Sith Lord and his protégé were simultaneously destroyed, at the same time as the second Death Star, some new incredibly powerful bad guy has built a weapon as large as a planet that can drain suns of their energy, a massive fleet and an army staffed by stormtroopers who must have been snatched from their cribs at least 20 years ago. Who is this Snoke guy and where the heck did he come from? At the end of Jedi the Empire is kaput. It's got no leader, it's got no enforcer, it's a non-entity. Did this massive Nazi-like regime spring from a bunch of defeated generals on Star Destroyers spread all over the galaxy who weren't tracked down by the Rebellion/New Republic? Where's the war happening? I don't get that.

- I couldn't dig Han/Leia. I get the storyline of their past 30 years on paper, but I just wasn't sold. Part of that was probably Ford not seeming to care much. Part of it was me not being able to see beyond Carrie Fisher to recognize Leia; I kept waiting for her to make a pottymouthed wisecrack. I just couldn't look at the two of them and think "Yeah, those two were married, spent a decade+ together, and had a kid they loved and tried to raise and it went horribly awry." Han should have been more debauched about it, and Leia more visibly shattered, or something.

- Also, the part where Han's getting called for payment by the two intergalactic gangs at the same time seemed cheesy and forced to me. Han had a couple moments, I guess - telling Finn that women always figure out the truth, the death - but I ended up finding him a distraction.

- I got a little confused at the map in the Starkiller Base. Han, Finn and Chewie seemed to get in through some outpost building, but then they run into Finn's old boss? I knew what was going to happen here, obviously, and the plot was clear enough, but I was visually sort of lost.

- You bring in Max von Sydow and give him like 30 seconds on screen only to be slaughtered? What?

All the rest is good stuff. Highlights for us included:

- Tracking shot of Finn charging through the ruins of Maz Kanata's while Po goes video game mode flying overhead was pretty terrific.

- I knew what was happening, but the moment when Luke's light saber whizzes past Ren's head right to Rey? Bad$#*^

- Despite comment above about hoping he was a bit character and the Knights of Ren thing just an appetizer, I did really like Kylo Ren. Agreed with some above, that he was supposed to be petulant and irritable and immature. His tirades were portrayed as funny, not terrifying. Po (who probably knew him when he was a kid) makes fun of him in front of his peers. He's afraid of Snoke and not ready to dominate the generals.

- Nevertheless, Adam Driver's delivery of Kylo's lines shows a budding menace. He's so cocksure and smarmy and malevolent and condescending and in control, except when he's not and he becomes spiteful and petulant and self-loathing. Whoever said he was a crummy choice for the part upthread I'm guessing hasn't seen Driver act before. He's perfectly cast. He's shown a talent for characters who are incredibly selfish but deeply wounded, and want you to know it, but not really, because they're afraid, and so they're going to be a complete horse's rear end until they break. Or don't, and continue to be an unbelievable jerk even when it's so painfully obvious it hurts him to do so.

- it LOOKED like Star Wars.

- it was FUN. Which is sort of why all of the nitpicking we're all doing about the plot contrivances or holes and all of that is somewhat pointless. That is the primary difference between this film and the prequels. They were too g'd'ed serious, which made everyone focus on all the other glaring issues. If they'd just had a bit of magic and fun to them, we might have been able to gloss over some of the crummy acting and overuse of CGI, etc., etc. Some of it.

- the rescue scene and Po's reveling in flying a Tie Fighter was cool. In fact, all the flight scenes seemed really well done. Obviously a lot lower degree of difficulty than 35 years ago. The escape from Jakku was also terrific.

On to the speculation about the plot of the next episode, I guess.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Anyone watch the Lego Star Wars: The Resistance Rises?
These were 5 shorts precluding the Force Awakens, and of course being Lego, lots of silly fun. I had to double check, but anything Lego is not canon. I wasn't sure, because even though some of the scenes are preposterous, the overall action could still be taken as being part of a bigger story.

So..being that it's not, here's a few fun things that happened.

Story opens with red armed C3P0 being rescued by Poe Dameron on some planet that rains acid, before they go off and rescue Admiral Ackbar from the clutches of Kylo Ren and Captain Phasma.
Maz Katana goes totally Jedi with a lightsaber (presumably Lukes)...like popping off the walls Yoda from the prequels style.
Lando Calrissian is at Maz's castle as she goes off Jedi style. (He is throwing the two factions that boarded Han's freighter off of his trail.)
The Ghost, from Star Wars Rebels, takes off from behind the Millennium Falcon at Unkar Plutt's, with Chopper aboard. This is my favorite part of the whole series of shorts, and lasts all of 2 seconds. (Chopper has to be way old, he was already old and decrepit in Rebels, so even though it is non Canon, was still fun to see his existence implied.)
Finn begins to question the First Order as they prepare the raid on Jakku. The series ends with the troop lander approaching the village that was attacked at the beginning of The Force Awakens.


To watch for yourself, you can check them out here. The longest is the first one, with most under 5 minutes.
http://watchdisneyxd.go.com/lego-star-wars-the-resistance-rises