Golden State Warriors: 73!

[left_hook_lacey]

Golden State is getting into "Will They/Won't They, Boy they sure could" territory in regards to breaking the 96 Bulls regular season record of 72 wins. Toe the line, and predict where you think they will finish!

(With the actual poll this time. Mods, please lock/delete the other thread.)

[superdave]

Golden State is getting into "Will They/Won't They, Boy they sure could" territory in regards to breaking the 96 Bulls regular season record of 72 wins. Toe the line, and predict where you think they will finish!

(With the actual poll this time. Mods, please lock/delete the other thread.)

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team. Steph Curry would be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era.

[left_hook_lacey]

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team.

I tend to agreee. They are built for the "new" NBA. Credit the front office I guess.

That being said, Lebron and Co. in Miami couldn't break it with a stacked team.

[Ichabod Drain]

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team. Steph Curry would be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era.

I think Dell might disagree with you.

[DUKIECB]

Golden State is getting into "Will They/Won't They, Boy they sure could" territory in regards to breaking the 96 Bulls regular season record of 72 wins. Toe the line, and predict where you think they will finish!

(With the actual poll this time. Mods, please lock/delete the other thread.)So they currently sit at 23-0 which means they would have to go 50-9 the rest of the way to get to 73 wins. That means they would have to average 6.56 wins to every 1 loss over their remaining 59 games.

A lot of things would have to go right and have some good luck with not having any major injuries but I think they have a really good shot at it.

[luburch]

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team. Steph Curry would be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era.

Never understood this argument. Same for when people claim LeBron wouldn't be able to handle the Pistons back in the day. It's a silly statement that doesn't hold water.

Back on topic, I think they'll get the record. I've only been able to watch a handful of games this year, but they are so impressive. Hope they break the record, in part, so we can quit hearing about that Bulls team as much.

EDIT: Just to note - At this point in the season, this Warriors team is absolutely historically great. As was last years team.

[Kfanarmy]

Never understood this argument. Same for when people claim LeBron wouldn't be able to handle the Pistons back in the day. It's a silly statement that doesn't hold water.

Back on topic, I think they'll get the record. I've only been able to watch a handful of games this year, but they are so impressive. Hope they break the record, in part, so we can quit hearing about that Bulls team as much.

EDIT: Just to note - At this point in the season, this Warriors team is absolutely historically great. As was last years team.

I'd agree on LeBron, but not on Curry...I think significant physical defense would have an incredible negative impact on his scoring. LeBron would get used to it and push through...his game is not nearly so reliant on a no-contact environment.

[yancem]

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team. Steph Curry would be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era.

I'll agree that the rules have changed the style of play and that the Warriors probably wouldn't be as dominate if they were playing back in the 80's or 90's but .500???? Remember that the 80's were dominated by the show time Lakers. I think that biggest issue the Warriors would have had with back then is not the hand checking but the fact that there were many more quality centers and power forwards that actually played power forward. Rebounding and interior scoring would be their down fall. As for the Dell Curry comment, how much did you watch Dell back in the day. I mean he had a gorgeous shot and the quickest release I've ever seen but he didn't have near the ball handling, penetration or passing skills that Steph has. He was almost completely a catch and shot type of player. Steph is much, much better, hand checking or no.

[cato]

I'd agree on LeBron, but not on Curry...I think significant physical defense would have an incredible negative impact on his scoring. LeBron would get used to it and push through...his game is not nearly so reliant on a no-contact environment.

The real question is why the 90's were ever allowed to happen. Those Knicks v Heat battles were nothing but historically boring. And I was a Knicks fan in those days.

[kAzE]

They won't get to 72. Injuries have already become a factor, and I see them having a bit of a slide once this streak ends. The Rockets (with Shane Battier) won 22 in a row in 2007-08, and then lost the next 5 or so games. These types of streaks are exhausting and a losing streak immediately afterwards is almost to be expected. Also, the Warriors stayed remarkably healthy last season, and there's almost no chance that kind of luck persists through another entire year. They have 23 wins now, but anybody on that 72 win Bulls team will tell you how they should have lost at least 10 more games, but MJ willed them to victory. I don't think it's a stretch to say that no athlete in the history of sports hated losing more than MJ, and he kicked it into a gear that no one else has to steal victories that year. The Warriors do not have MJ, or anyone with that combination of willpower and ability. They will have more than 10 losses when the season is over. My best guess is 69 wins.

[left_hook_lacey]

They won't get to 72. Injuries have already become a factor, and I see them having a bit of a slide once this streak ends. The Rockets (with Shane Battier) won 22 in a row in 2007-08, and then lost the next 5 or so games. These types of streaks are exhausting and a losing streak immediately afterwards is almost to be expected. Also, the Warriors stayed remarkably healthy last season, and there's almost no chance that kind of luck persists through another entire year. They have 23 wins now, but anybody on that 72 win Bulls team will tell you how they should have lost at least 10 more games, but MJ willed them to victory. I don't think it's a stretch to say that no athlete in the history of sports hated losing more than MJ, and he kicked it into a gear that no one else has to steal victories that year. The Warriors do not have MJ, or anyone with that combination of willpower and ability. They will have more than 10 losses when the season is over. My best guess is 69 wins.

Those are all good points, and I agree with most of it. My only arguement would be that the Warriors won 67 games last year, only 6 away from breaking the record, without a 23-game winning streak to start the season.

[DUKIECB]

Those are all good points, and I agree with most of it. My only arguement would be that the Warriors won 67 games last year, only 6 away from breaking the record, without a 23-game winning streak to start the season.I agree. Having already chased the record last year, they now have the added confidence of having already been there and done that and now know what it's going to take to break the record.

Also, they are playing statistically better this year. Curry's numbers are better than last year and that's coming off an MVP performance. The league as a whole is down in my opinion. If the injury bug doesn't bite too hard I'm betting they get to 73.

[superdave]

Never understood this argument. Same for when people claim LeBron wouldn't be able to handle the Pistons back in the day. It's a silly statement that doesn't hold water.

Back on topic, I think they'll get the record. I've only been able to watch a handful of games this year, but they are so impressive. Hope they break the record, in part, so we can quit hearing about that Bulls team as much.

EDIT: Just to note - At this point in the season, this Warriors team is absolutely historically great. As was last years team.

Lebron would be great in any era. No argument from any sane person on that point.

Golden State's playoff run last season looked like this -
- Beat New Orleans with an injured pg, Jrue Holiday
- Beat Houston with an injured pg, Patrick Beverly
- Beat Memphis with an injured pg, Mike Conley
- Beat Cleveland with an injured pg, Kyrie Irving (also, Kevin Love was out)

No wonder Steph Curry was playoff MVP.

I like Steph Curry. Great guy, amazing to watch. But they were not the best team last year, just the healthiest and luckiest come playoff time. Lebron was thisclose to being up 3-0 on them all by his lonesome in the Finals.

[blUDAYvil]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-warriors-might-be-as-good-as-the-michael-jordan-era-bulls/

Interesting 538Sports article on this subject, where they predict a 72-10 record. Though they make the good point that GS could elect to rest their starters once they clinch home court advantage.

[Ichabod Drain]

Lebron would be great in any era. No argument from any sane person on that point.

Golden State's playoff run last season looked like this -
- Beat New Orleans with an injured pg, Jrue Holiday
- Beat Houston with an injured pg, Patrick Beverly
- Beat Memphis with an injured pg, Mike Conley
- Beat Cleveland with an injured pg, Kyrie Irving (also, Kevin Love was out)

No wonder Steph Curry was playoff MVP.

I like Steph Curry. Great guy, amazing to watch. But they were not the best team last year, just the healthiest and luckiest come playoff time. Lebron was thisclose to being up 3-0 on them all by his lonesome in the Finals.

Curry was the NBA MVP last year for the regular season. Andre Iguodala was the Finals MVP. Also they are 106-20 since the beginning of the 2014-2015 season.

I'm not sure if this team is historically great yet or anything (they very well may not be) but saying that Steph would just be Dell 20 years ago comes across uninformed.

[kAzE]

I agree. Having already chased the record last year, they now have the added confidence of having already been there and done that and now know what it's going to take to break the record.

Also, they are playing statistically better this year. Curry's numbers are better than last year and that's coming off an MVP performance. The league as a whole is down in my opinion. If the injury bug doesn't bite too hard I'm betting they get to 73.

Harrison Barnes is currently out. Klay Thompson is not at full strength with a tweaked ankle. Leandro Barbosa is also banged up. Andrew Bogut is Andrew Bogut. If they decide to keep going for broke, it may cost them more than their winning streak. I'd take your bet and say they definitely don't get to 73.

[Wander]

That being said, Lebron and Co. in Miami couldn't break it with a stacked team.

This statement sort of implies that those Miami teams were better than this Golden State team, which I don't think is true.

[BigWayne]

Those are all good points, and I agree with most of it. My only arguement would be that the Warriors won 67 games last year, only 6 away from breaking the record, without a 23-game winning streak to start the season.

The problem is that the percentage is so high even at that rate that the 23 game start is really only about 4+ games better. If they were to perform the rest of the season at last year's win rate, they come out at ~72.6 wins. I think it's about even money whether they get to 72.

[superdave]

Curry was the NBA MVP last year for the regular season. Andre Iguodala was the Finals MVP. Also they are 106-20 since the beginning of the 2014-2015 season.

I'm not sure if this team is historically great yet or anything (they very well may not be) but saying that Steph would just be Dell 20 years ago comes across uninformed.

Dell averaged 15-16 per game for the peak of his long career. Pretty strong.

I am not uninformed, thank you, just opinionated.


http://www.maxim.com/entertainment/sports/article/interview-icon-charles-barkley

How do you think your teams in the ’80s and ’90s would fare today?

We’d kill these little girly teams they’ve got today. Come on. The Miami Heat, the best team today, they make Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[BD80]

Never understood this argument. Same for when people claim LeBron wouldn't be able to handle the Pistons back in the day. It's a silly statement that doesn't hold water.

...

Playing the way the game was officiated back then, Dennis Rodman would have made Bron-Bron cry.

[Ichabod Drain]

Dell averaged 15-16 per game for the peak of his long career. Pretty strong.

I am not uninformed, thank you, just opinionated.


http://www.maxim.com/entertainment/sports/article/interview-icon-charles-barkley

How do you think your teams in the ’80s and ’90s would fare today?

We’d kill these little girly teams they’ve got today. Come on. The Miami Heat, the best team today, they make Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

How about that Steph already has over 1000 more assists than Dell did in his whole career.

Why are you referring to todays teams as mine and the 80's & 90's as yours? That's showing a bias to begin with.

[JNort]

Dell averaged 15-16 per game for the peak of his long career. Pretty strong.

I am not uninformed, thank you, just opinionated.


http://www.maxim.com/entertainment/sports/article/interview-icon-charles-barkley

How do you think your teams in the ’80s and ’90s would fare today?

We’d kill these little girly teams they’ve got today. Come on. The Miami Heat, the best team today, they make Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Under today's rules.... I'd say they wouldn't fare so well. I'd have more faith in teams today playing in that era with those rules.

[JNort]

Dell averaged 15-16 per game for the peak of his long career. Pretty strong.

I am not uninformed, thank you, just opinionated.


http://www.maxim.com/entertainment/sports/article/interview-icon-charles-barkley

How do you think your teams in the ’80s and ’90s would fare today?

We’d kill these little girly teams they’ve got today. Come on. The Miami Heat, the best team today, they make Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

I don't think you meant the Heat who are nowhere close to being the best team in the east let alone the NBA. If you meant Cleveland then I still disagree that they are the best team. Regardless thiugh I think they would be a playoff team back then

[vick]

Where did the idea that the 80s represented an era of super-physical basketball come from? The average pace of all NBA teams ranged from 99.6-103.1 possessions per game in the '80s. This year's average? 96.4. The average weight of NBA players ranged from 204-209 pounds in the '80s. This year's average? 221. The league allowed more fights than it did now, but players were rather obviously less physically developed on average, and defense was quite frankly a joke during the decade when compared with modern defenses.

[JetpackJesus]

How about that Steph already has over 1000 more assists than Dell did in his whole career.

Why are you referring to todays teams as mine and the 80's & 90's as yours? That's showing a bias to begin with.


I don't think you meant the Heat who are nowhere close to being the best team in the east let alone the NBA. If you meant Cleveland then I still disagree that they are the best team. Regardless thiugh I think they would be a playoff team back then

That was a Charles Barkley quote from the link posted in JNort's comment.

[JNort]

That was a Charles Barkley quote from the link posted in JNort's comment.

Not I. Maybe Superdave

[WillJ]

I think it's true that this Warriors team would be much less effective under the defensive rules used in the 1980s. It's also true that those good 1980s teams would struggle against the Warriors under the new rules.

[cato]

Dell averaged 15-16 per game for the peak of his long career. Pretty strong.

I am not uninformed, thank you, just opinionated.


http://www.maxim.com/entertainment/sports/article/interview-icon-charles-barkley

How do you think your teams in the ’80s and ’90s would fare today?

We’d kill these little girly teams they’ve got today. Come on. The Miami Heat, the best team today, they make Roy Hibbert look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

"little girly teams"

smh

[gurufrisbee]

It's a remarkable start and very impressive. But the league is more loaded with talent than ever right now and the Warriors will finally take some lumps.

[Neals384]

With such a big start, I expect GS to break the record.

I also think they have the perfect roster for the way the league's rules are currently written. They would be a .500 team back in the 80s or 90s. This is not a historically great team. Steph Curry would be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era.

Cmon, Golden State has won one championship and 20 some games in the new season. By objective standards, that's not enough to even be in the running for "historically great". There's no need to throw up a bogus comparison to the great teams of the past.

But I'm calling you out, super - if they do break the record, I expect you to spork the Warriors without any qualifying putdowns.

[Grounded]

Some tired arguments...I'm having flashbacks of last year's playoff thread that almost made my head explode. I had to stop reading...

Objectively speaking, last year's team was historically great. Then they finished with a title. This year's team is already historically great. We'll see how the regular season goes. My money is on them getting the record and I'd love to see them win the title again. If they don't? Who cares...still one of the most impressive teams to come around in a long, long time.

We can talk about being lucky, hand checking, zone defenses, the Bad Boys and the 72-win bulls all day long. It doesn't matter. They're amazing to watch and it seems like most people are enjoying the ride.

I have the luxury of seeing every game out here and daily exposure of everything Dubs. They love the doubters. It fuels them. Keep it coming.

[Skitzle]

Lebron would be great in any era. No argument from any sane person on that point.

Golden State's playoff run last season looked like this -
- Beat New Orleans with an injured pg, Jrue Holiday
- Beat Houston with an injured pg, Patrick Beverly
- Beat Memphis with an injured pg, Mike Conley
- Beat Cleveland with an injured pg, Kyrie Irving (also, Kevin Love was out)

No wonder Steph Curry was playoff MVP.

I like Steph Curry. Great guy, amazing to watch. But they were not the best team last year, just the healthiest and luckiest come playoff time. Lebron was thisclose to being up 3-0 on them all by his lonesome in the Finals.

Hey Superdave, how do you react when someone says Duke won in 2010 because college basketball had a down year? That's what you're doing here.

Yes I'm a warriors fan. Yes I'm biased, but this is ridiculous.

1) Every Champion gets lucky breaks regarding injury.
2) Last year GSW had the best record in the NBA with 67 wins.
3) That record is a top 10 best record ALL-TIME! Only 9 other teams have had 67+ wins EVER.
3a) The NBA adopted an 82 game season in 1967-1968. There have been 1194 finishing records since that time. The Warriors finished in the top 10 out of 1194 possible records... Thats the top .8% of all teams ever
4) The West was better last year than it is this year. (Surprisingly)

The Warriors are AMAZING this year, but were really really good last year. No Injury should diminish what they have accomplished.

On a related unrelated note:

Do you realize there is an arugment that last years MVP could be this years Most Improved Player

In 2015 NBA Most Improved Player Jimmy Butler had a 7.8 Increase in Player Efficiency Rating
In 2014 NBA Most Improved Player Goran Dragic had a 3.9 Increase in Player Efficiency Rating
In 2013 NBA Most Improved Player Paul George had a 3.3 Increase in Player Efficiency Rating

Steph Curry Current improvement in PER is 6.7!!!!

[Skitzle]

Cmon, Golden State has won one championship and 20 some games in the new season. By objective standards, that's not enough to even be in the running for "historically great". There's no need to throw up a bogus comparison to the great teams of the past.

But I'm calling you out, super - if they do break the record, I expect you to spork the Warriors without any qualifying putdowns.

The next best team in the league has 18 wins! The Warriors have 23! The Warriors are 5 games better than the next best team.

Only 3 teams have EVER won this many games in a row, and no team has ever won this many games to start a season.

The Warriors need to play

But no, this is not a historically great team?

[Ichabod Drain]

That was a Charles Barkley quote from the link posted in JNort's comment.

Ah, I see now. My mistake, misread the post.

[mkirsh]

I think they fall just short. 72 wins is a crazy number, and there is a lot of talent in the west.

However, I do think this is a historically great team, and as someone who grew up watching the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Bad Boy Pistons, and Jordan's Bulls, I still think the 2015 Warriors would run circles around all of those teams except the Bulls.

Starters for the 1990 Pistons
Isaiah Thomas 6'1 180
Joe Dumars 6'3 190
Mark Aguirre 6'6 232
Denis Rodman 6'7 210
Bill Laimbeer 6'11 245


Starters for the 84 Celtics
Dennis Johnson 6'4 185
Cedric Maxwell 6'8 205
Larry Bird 6'9 220
Kevin McHale 6'10 210
Robert Parish 7'0 230


Starters for the 1985 Lakers
Magic 6'9 215
Byron Scott 6'3 195
Michael Cooper 6'5 170
James Worthy 6'9 225
Kareem 7'2 225


Starters for the 96 Bulls
Ron Harper 6'6 185
Jordan 6'6 195
Scottie Pippen 6'8 210
Denis Rodman 6'7 210
Luc Longley 7'2 265


Starters for the 2015 Warriors
Curry 6'3 185
Klay Thomson 6'7 205
Harrison Barnes 6'8 210
Draymond Green 6'7 230
Andrew Bogut 7'1 260


Against the Pistons, the Isaiah-Curry matchup would be one for the ages, and the Bogut-Laimbeer slug fest would also but for the opposite reasons. Across the board in other positions the Warriors win the matchups on size, strength, speed, and skill. I think Warriors win this series 4-1.

Against the Celtics, I like Bird over Barnes, and Draymond would have to shove McHale off the blocks, but the Celts would have no answer for Curry and Thompson, and McHale would have a heck of a challenge chasing Draymond around the court. Warriors in six.

Against the Lakers, match-ups are tougher. Warriors would have to put Klay on Magic and hope his size would help a little, and Worthy-Draymond would be fun to watch. Kareem would get his, because nobody could stop the sky hook then and I don't think anyone could stop it now. Don't know what would happen when the Warriors would make him guard PnR. Starters here are tough to call, but when Iguodala comes in, his eyes would light up to see Kurt Rambis at the scorers table next to him. This would be a great series to watch, but again I think the Warriors would space them out, make the bigs guard ball screens, and beat them from the 3 point line, which wasn't the weapon it is today in 1985 (fun fact - the Lakers took 295 threes in 1985, making 31%, best for 8th and 6th in the league, respectively. Through 23 games, the Warriors have taken 715 threes and made 44% of them, both best in the league. Curry by himself has already taken 257, making 46%). Warriors in 7.

The Bulls are a different animal. They would alternate Jordan and Pippen on Curry, making him shoot over size. Rodman would have a hard time chasing Green on the perimeter, but Green would have trouble keeping him off the glass on the other end. Longley was Bogut before Bogut was Bogut - the two of them would just watch, maybe trade stories about Australia. The Bulls could also adjust to the Warriors going small, using Kerr and Kukoc off the bench. Overall the Bulls have too much talent, win in 6.

[brevity]

They are built for the "new" NBA. Credit the front office I guess.

This reads like an afterthought, but is probably the most insightful comment in this thread.

I was thinking about how the post above from mkirsh curiously leaves out the coaches (well, Steve Kerr is mentioned, but as a Bulls player). Most historical comparisons would bring up some kind of X factor in the form of Chuck Daly, Pat Riley, or Phil Jackson. I don't know about the Celtics -- they had multiple head coaches in the Bird era -- but few people would consider the Warriors to have a similar X factor.

What's interesting about the Warriors is that they may have been fine-tuned by any or all of their 3 recent coaches, but their excellence seems to be a triumph at the executive level. They were designed to succeed. And it is somewhat amusing to me that it is happening in Billy Beane's backyard.

[mkirsh]

This reads like an afterthought, but is probably the most insightful comment in this thread.

I was thinking about how the post above from mkirsh curiously leaves out the coaches (well, Steve Kerr is mentioned, but as a Bulls player). Most historical comparisons would bring up some kind of X factor in the form of Chuck Daly, Pat Riley, or Phil Jackson. I don't know about the Celtics -- they had multiple head coaches in the Bird era -- but few people would consider the Warriors to have a similar X factor.

What's interesting about the Warriors is that they may have been fine-tuned by any or all of their 3 recent coaches, but their excellence seems to be a triumph at the executive level. They were designed to succeed. And it is somewhat amusing to me that it is happening in Billy Beane's backyard.

Very good point, I should have thought through coaches. Mostly my view on coaches is that they represent the eras - Riley's shotwime and Daly's Bad-Boys, etc, but I will have to give in-game and game-by-game adjustments more thought. (note, I also include bench/depth much either, which would have impact). I do feel compelled to say that Kerr/Walton don't get enough credit IMO. Basically they get "anyone could win with Curry" statement, much like Phil got during the Jordan and Shaq/Kobe eras. I believe Kerr has proven his chops based on 1) his ability to design schemes to get Curry open - everyone in the building knows the Warriors want to get looks from 3 for Curry, but the way they space, use screens, and deploy Draymond Green forces other teams into very hard choices and the W's are successful at getting Curry looks, and the coaches deserve more credit for that; and 2) the match up game and they way they used smallball to win the title last year - everyone is doing it now, but Kerr does it really well (credit to the front office here too, but Kerr needs recognition).

[darthur]

Hey Superdave, how do you react when someone says Duke won in 2010 because college basketball had a down year? That's what you're doing here.

Yes I'm a warriors fan. Yes I'm biased, but this is ridiculous.

Gigantic +1.

"Golden State is charmed with injuries"
- Seems to me they are 5-0 on a lengthy road trip against strong competition with their starting small forward out.
- And one of these had the starting center out too.
- And of course the head coach has been out the whole season. I'd think a Duke fan of all people would appreciate that losing a head coach due to surgery complications can be a problem.
- And Klay Thompson has spent most of the first part of the season battling a bad back, now with a sprained ankle.

"Golden State was lucky last year"
- They crushed Memphis with Conley playing just fine.
- They beat Golden State with Irving in.
- They showed all year this year and last year that they can beat the competition in all sorts of scenarios.

"Golden State would get crushed in another era"
- They are a team built around a dominant PG, like many of the best teams in this era. Would they struggle against elite teams in the illegal-defense hand-checking era? Probably. But it goes both ways. Those teams would struggle in these rules as well.
- They are historically great within the era they play. This is the only objective thing any one can talk about, and it is completely unequivocally true.
- Steph Curry would be Dell Curry in another era? Oh come on - this is an absurd claim.

Will they make 72? We'll see, but they sure are playing at an incredibly high level right now.

[fraggler]

I think they are just good enough to do so, but with the length of the season, and the real goal being another championship (which would silence the "fluke" critics), I don't think they should try for it. At some point, the rigors of the season will catch up to them and resting players will be a real consideration.

[superdave]

23 teams x 15 roster spots = 345 NBA players in 1986

30 teams x 15 roster spots = 450 NBA players today

It's a very blunt argument, but you could obviously say that there are 105 players in the NBA today that would not have been able to make an NBA roster 30 years ago. The league is most definitely watered down.

What that practically means is the 7,8,9 guys in today's rotations would not have been in the rotation 30 years ago. One or two of your starters today would have been the 8 or 9 guy in the rotation back then. Looking at the starting 5's as mkirsh does above ignores the bench.

Here's a list of guys who came off the bench in the 1980's - Bobby Jones, Bill Walton, Kurt Rambis, Mychal Thompson, Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, John Salley, Vinnie Johnson, Gerald Henderson, Cliff Robinson, Drazen Petrovic

The players in bold are in the Hall of Fame. The best way to describe this is how Ginobli comes off the bench for the Spurs. It's almost as if every single franchise had their own Manu Ginobli, or maybe even two Ginobli/Starter level players coming off the bench. GSW does have Igoudala who is a great 6th man, but he made his mark as the best player on sub .500 Sixers teams.

You can also argue back that every title team gets a lucky break here and there. But the Warriors got lucky every round, did not have to go through the Spurs or Clippers, and got a one-man Cleveland show without the #2 and #3 players on the team. That's beyond extremely lucky.

[Grounded]

One more thing...

GS won last year because they were the "healthiest" team, right? Or was it because other teams were injured? I can't remember. Doesn't matter. Who cares. If you're going to argue this point (which many people do...), you have to understand the facts.

Maybe they were the healthiest team because they crushed so many teams through 3 quarters that their starters didn't even need to play in the 4th? They had been resting starters throughout the season.

Did they win because they were healthy? Or were they healthy because they were winning? Was it the chicken or the egg?

Same thing this year (with the Pacers game an interesting exception). Usually, when GS starters walk to the bench at the end of the 3rd, that's it for them. Take a look at minutes played thus far this year. Steph is ranked at 27 in the NBA, Draymond is at 32. Next highest Warrior is Klay at 61 and there are no other Warriors in the top 100. That's a lot spreading it around...clearly helps to have a second unit that could beat some starting 5s.

Yes, it's a long season. Yes, there are / will be injuries. But this team is uniquely built, coached, prepared and playing for this level of success.

[Des Esseintes]

23 teams x 15 roster spots = 345 NBA players in 1986

30 teams x 15 roster spots = 450 NBA players today

It's a very blunt argument, but you could obviously say that there are 105 players in the NBA today that would not have been able to make an NBA roster 30 years ago. The league is most definitely watered down.

What that practically means is the 7,8,9 guys in today's rotations would not have been in the rotation 30 years ago. One or two of your starters today would have been the 8 or 9 guy in the rotation back then. Looking at the starting 5's as mkirsh does above ignores the bench.


No. You know how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1990? 21. Today? Over 100 (http://www.nba.com/2014/news/10/28/international-players-on-opening-day-rosters-2014-15/). US population in 1990? 250 million. US population today? 320 million. The game is drawing from a vastly deeper talent pool at both the domestic and global level. If anything, a roster spot is harder to come by today than in 1986.

[Grounded]

23 teams x 15 roster spots = 345 NBA players in 1986

30 teams x 15 roster spots = 450 NBA players today

It's a very blunt argument, but you could obviously say that there are 105 players in the NBA today that would not have been able to make an NBA roster 30 years ago. The league is most definitely watered down.

What that practically means is the 7,8,9 guys in today's rotations would not have been in the rotation 30 years ago. One or two of your starters today would have been the 8 or 9 guy in the rotation back then. Looking at the starting 5's as mkirsh does above ignores the bench.

Here's a list of guys who came off the bench in the 1980's - Bobby Jones, Bill Walton, Kurt Rambis, Mychal Thompson, Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, John Salley, Vinnie Johnson, Gerald Henderson, Cliff Robinson, Drazen Petrovic

The players in bold are in the Hall of Fame. The best way to describe this is how Ginobli comes off the bench for the Spurs. It's almost as if every single franchise had their own Manu Ginobli, or maybe even two Ginobli/Starter level players coming off the bench. GSW does have Igoudala who is a great 6th man, but he made his mark as the best player on sub .500 Sixers teams.

You can also argue back that every title team gets a lucky break here and there. But the Warriors got lucky every round, did not have to go through the Spurs or Clippers, and got a one-man Cleveland show without the #2 and #3 players on the team. That's beyond extremely lucky.

The era argument is so blunt it makes my head spin. What's the difference in size of the talent pool between 1986 and 2015? Was college basketball as popular? Nike? SLAM Magazine? How many international players not named Drazen (I'm from Portland and watched his rookie season in '89, so claiming him as an HOF player of the 80s is a stretch) or Detlef?

The NBA is a global brand now and you could make a stronger argument that the pool of talent is significantly bigger / better than it's ever been. Could today's bench guys hang with some of the starters of yesteryear? James Harden coming off the OKC bench might be a decent example here (I'll admit that's an extreme case...).

I don't even know where to begin with that last argument. Doc? Is that you? The Spurs / Clippers couldn't handle their business (in a remarkable fashion, if fact). GS crushed the Clippers in the regular season. Lebron had to play out of his mind (with Kevin / Kyrie available, who know how his production would have dropped...people assume it would stay, but it wouldn't) to win 2 games. 2 games. By a total of 7 points. The Warriors beat everyone in their path. That's what happened. The hypotheticals didn't.

#theearthisround

[Grounded]

No. You know how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1990? 21. Today? Over 100 (http://www.nba.com/2014/news/10/28/international-players-on-opening-day-rosters-2014-15/). US population in 1990? 250 million. US population today? 320 million. The game is drawing from a vastly deeper talent pool at both the domestic and global level. If anything, a roster spot is harder to come by today than in 1986.

Logic...love it. +1

[superdave]

Lebron was a baseline jumper at the end of regulation in game 1 away from being up 3-0 on GSW in the Finals all by himself.

And I am somehow supposed to believe the Warriors are historically great?

The Cavs win with a healthy Kyrie or a healthy Love. They sweep the Warriors if both are healthy, and then I wouldnt be listening to this "historical" nonesense!

[Grounded]

Lebron was a baseline jumper at the end of regulation in game 1 away from being up 3-0 on GSW in the Finals all by himself.

And I am somehow supposed to believe the Warriors are historically great?

The Cavs win with a healthy Kyrie or a healthy Love. They sweep the Warriors if both are healthy, and then I wouldnt be listening to this "historical" nonesense!

There's probably a pretty decent t-shirt somewhere in there. The one that got away...

Poor Cleveland. :p

[superdave]

No. You know how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1990? 21. Today? Over 100 (http://www.nba.com/2014/news/10/28/international-players-on-opening-day-rosters-2014-15/). US population in 1990? 250 million. US population today? 320 million. The game is drawing from a vastly deeper talent pool at both the domestic and global level. If anything, a roster spot is harder to come by today than in 1986.

Sure the talent pool is bigger, but the talent is not better. Guys with 0-1 years of college ball under their belts are occupying roster spots and learning to play. They ashould not be in the league yet. They are not evidence of higher quality play. AAU and the one-and-done rule have guaranteed the skill level is going to be lower than it was prior to the 1990-Current era.

I like the current rules. I just wish we had the high level of talent from roster top to roster bottom that we had back then. The only way to get there is via contraction. Instead you get the Swaggy P's and Brandon Jenning's of the world playing ugly ball.

[darthur]

Lebron was a baseline jumper at the end of regulation in game 1 away from being up 3-0 on GSW in the Finals all by himself.

And I am somehow supposed to believe the Warriors are historically great?

The Cavs win with a healthy Kyrie or a healthy Love. They sweep the Warriors if both are healthy, and then I wouldnt be listening to this "historical" nonesense!

No, you'd hear about them being a historically great team that still lost in the end, kinda like Duke under Elton Brand. And btw, if a couple different jumpers go the other way, the Cavs would have gotten swept. If game 1 went differently, maybe the Warriors would have made the adjustments earlier that let them sweep games 3,4,5. Given that the Cavs did better in the playoffs without Kyrie than with him, it's a stretch to say he would have won it for them. That's why you shouldn't obsess about a tiny sample size.

Anyway...

- Best ever start to a regular season by a *huge* margin.
- Top 10 winning percentage of all time last year, top 10 point differential of all time last year. On pace for better this year.
- Currently tied for the second-best winning streak in NBA history with a very real chance of beating the Lakers #1 streak. Oh and if they win tonight and tomorrow, they will also be the first team in NBA history to sweep a 7 game road trip.
- A star on pace to have the highest PER of all time this year.
- A star on pace to *destroy* the 3 point shooting record this year (which of course he set last year).
- A *complementary* player set the NBA all-time record for most points in a quarter last year. These days most people would argue Klay isn't even the second best player on the team, let alone best.

The only argument for Golden State not being a historically great team is you think NBA players suck today compared to the past. That's your prerogative but obviously many/most disagree and a few different bounces would not have made this story disappear.

[COYS]

Sure the talent pool is bigger, but the talent is not better. Guys with 0-1 years of college ball under their belts are occupying roster spots and learning to play. They ashould not be in the league yet. They are not evidence of higher quality play. AAU and the one-and-done rule have guaranteed the skill level is going to be lower than it was prior to the 1990-Current era.

This is a common narrative, but I really truly don't think it stacks up. It assumes a number of things. 1) AAU is bad for the development of skills. I don't buy it. Sure, some AAU teams aren't well coached, but others are. Ultimately, AAU allows players to continue to play year around. They don't have to rely solely on their school's seasons. In addition, the top players are playing national schedules with their high schools, now, too. They are able to live, sleep, eat, and drink basketball in a way that just wasn't possible back in the 70's and 80's. Add to that the abundance of skills camps and other programs dedicated to learning basketball and there are far more avenues for kids to hone their skills now than before.

2) OAD has ruined the development of players. We've been over this on the boards many times before, but one need only read the article in ESPN The Magazine about Jah's preseason and early games with the Sixers to see that the NBA has entire teams of people dedicated to making sure their young players are improving every facet of their game, whether that be using advanced analytics to fix holes in their game, using modern medical science and the best trainers to get in the best shape possible. Leaving aside the Sixer's obvious blind spot to providing mentors to their young players, it is clear that even the worst team in the NBA spends an insane amount of time and money on the development of their players. One can perhaps make a reasonable argument that a college senior might be better prepared right out of the gate than a college freshman. However, it is equally reasonable to argue that a OAD could very well be further along in their development at the close of their rookie year than a college senior would be. 25 year olds are now sitting on 6-7 years of NBA experience. It's difficult for me to believe that players like that would be more skilled if they had only graduated from college, first. If my son were in the position to be a OAD player, I would base my advice entirely on how I thought he would fare emotionally and psychologically in the league. I would be almost certain that they could develop better basketball skills playing for an NBA team than staying in college, assuming they were mentally ready for the rigors of life in the NBA.

3) International players. You didn't mention this in the message I quoted but it has come up so I think it bears mentioning again. Over 100 of the 450 available roster spots go to international players. That leaves a mere 350 for American players in what is a much larger country in terms of population now than it was in the 70's and early 80's when most of the stars from the 80's were going through high school. If American players were so unskilled, the scales would tilt far more heavily in favor of international players. Yet, if anything, American players have actually become MORE dominant over international players in the OAD era than they were before. The Dream Team will probably always stand as the most dominant team of all time, but considering how far behind international ball was, at the time, it was also never a fair fight. Meanwhile, since the low point of 2004-2006, USA basketball has reasserted its dominance in International basketball and, recently, has even widened the gap, owning world championships at every level of competition the vast majority of recent years. If high schoolers were so unskilled, they wouldn't be winning those games. Similarly, if American NBA players were so unskilled, they wouldn't be utterly crushing international competition year in and year out.

The Golden Era of the NBA will probably always be thought of as the 80's. You could possibly stretch it through '98 and Jordan's last championship with the Bulls. We'll always be nostalgic for that era. Even for me, who was either not born or too young to remember the 80's, I still think of names like Kareem, Magic, and Bird as being larger than life and bigger than pretty much anyone sense with the exception of Jordan and Lebron. This is no different than baseball where Babe Ruth still has a mystique that no player since has managed to equal. That being said, there are players since Babe Ruth in baseball who are equally as good just as there are players in the NBA now who are at least as good as those guys from the 80's. I don't think it's fair to let nostalgia color our perception of the modern game.

To put things in perspective, I recently rewatched the '01 Maryland-Duke Final Four clash. In my mind, I remember the team playing terribly until 5 minutes left in the first half when suddenly everything clicked and they played flawless basketball for the remaining 25 minutes of game action. That still goes down in history as one of my happiest Duke basketball memories, with Battier and co. operating at the height of their powers. To my surprise, the game was much uglier than I remember, even as Duke was mounting the comeback. There were plenty of bad shots, defensive lapses, and other mistakes. It was a glorious comeback, no doubt, but it was far from flawless. Similarly, I rewatched the championship game from '92. That game was really an ugly slug fest, especially in the first half. Offense was hard to come by and the ball movement was pretty stagnant. Laettner didn't play all that well in the first half, though he still had a solid game when it was all said and done. Happy memories and the final score had left me thinking it was a beautiful and comfortable Duke win. But that is far from the truth. Duke won, but it wasn't always as pretty as I remembered.

Anyway, I say all this because I think it's really easy to idealize the past and then miss all the awesome things that are happening in the present. This goes beyond basketball. Humans seem to be programmed to prefer the "good ol' days," which usually just refers to the time when a particularly individual was younger and forming their strongest memories, to the present.

[Skitzle]

Lebron was a baseline jumper at the end of regulation in game 1 away from being up 3-0 on GSW in the Finals all by himself.

And I am somehow supposed to believe the Warriors are historically great?

The Cavs win with a healthy Kyrie or a healthy Love. They sweep the Warriors if both are healthy, and then I wouldnt be listening to this "historical" nonesense!

Yes you would.

Stephen would still be Mvp
The Warriors would still have a top 10 record all time in 2014-15
And they still would have the most unbelievable streak at the start of the season.

That's history. The Warriors last year were one of the top 25 all-time great teams and debatably a top 10 team.

[JNort]

No. You know how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1990? 21. Today? Over 100 (http://www.nba.com/2014/news/10/28/international-players-on-opening-day-rosters-2014-15/). US population in 1990? 250 million. US population today? 320 million. The game is drawing from a vastly deeper talent pool at both the domestic and global level. If anything, a roster spot is harder to come by today than in 1986.

Not to mention how many more games and leagues kids play in today before they even get to the nba. Today there are more skills camps than ever before

[phaedrus]

Lebron was a baseline jumper at the end of regulation in game 1 away from being up 3-0 on GSW in the Finals all by himself.

And I am somehow supposed to believe the Warriors are historically great?



Those propositions aren't mutually exclusive. Want to know why? Because Lebron is .... historically great.

[Indoor66]

I still prefer Wilt & Elgin. Get off my lawn. :mad::o:cool:

[kAzE]

Calling it now: The streak ends tonight. No Barnes, no Thompson, on the road against a well-coached Celtics squad.

[Potato Head]

It'll be the Spurs or the Clippers or one of the good Western Conference teams to knock us off. Nobody in the east has enough talent, even without Thompson and Barnes.

[DUKIECB]

Overtime in Boston

[Ichabod Drain]

Calling it now: The streak ends tonight. No Barnes, no Thompson, on the road against a well-coached Celtics squad.

Not tonight, Golden State wins in double overtime.

[darthur]

Calling it now: The streak ends tonight. No Barnes, no Thompson, on the road against a well-coached Celtics squad.

Close but thankfully no cigar!

538 (http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-nba-picks/) agreed with you that this was close with the Warriors having a 69% chance of winning. Next toughest game through December is home vs Cleveland on Dec 25 at 80%. If they win that, it's their 33rd straight to tie the Lakers. I assume their model also doesn't know Klay was injured, making it even tougher. I also assume it doesn't know they'll be exhausted in their game tomorrow :).

[moonpie23]

thomas "hero ball" saves the streak....

[Troublemaker]

Calling it now: The streak ends tonight. No Barnes, no Thompson, on the road against a well-coached Celtics squad.

Close, but no cigar, Kaze.

It will happen when least expected.

[Skitzle]

Close but thankfully no cigar!

538 (http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-nba-picks/) agreed with you that this was close with the Warriors having a 69% chance of winning. Next toughest game through December is home vs Cleveland on Dec 25 at 80%. If they win that, it's their 33rd straight to tie the Lakers. I assume their model also doesn't know Klay was injured, making it even tougher. I also assume it doesn't know they'll be exhausted in their game tomorrow :).

No it won't that's their 30th win. They've lost games between last season and this season. I'm against th spanning two seasons thing

[kAzE]

Don't count out the Bucks tomorrow night. This could be the toughest game for the Warriors until their home date with the Cavs on Christmas. The Bucks are on a back to back as well, but they are at home, and they didn't play a double OT game tonight.

[Potato Head]

No it won't that's their 30th win. They've lost games between last season and this season. I'm against th spanning two seasons thing

It's two separate records. If they win against Cleveland it will tie the regular season winning streak, but they'll still be four games shy of the single season win streak.

[dukelifer]

Don't count out the Bucks tomorrow night. This could be the toughest game for the Warriors until their home date with the Cavs on Christmas. The Bucks are on a back to back as well, but they are at home, and they didn't play a double OT game tonight.

Down goes Frazier! Bucks win.. Jabari had a nice game.

[moonpie23]

streak all done...

[darthur]

streak all done...

But plenty of season left to go!

- 72 is still up for grabs for the warriors; they get a break now to rest now and should got Barnes back soon
- The spurs are flying under the radar but are looking only slightly less dominant
- The cavs got Shumpert back last game and will get Kyrie back very soon, plus we've already seen how good they can be when it gets to playoff time and LeBron goes all out

[dukelifer]

streak all done...

Interesting that the Bucks have a history of stopping streaks and then the team whose streak was stopped goes on to win the Championship. Was nice to see Jabari playing well in a big game.

[left_hook_lacey]

Don't count out the Bucks tomorrow night. This could be the toughest game for the Warriors until their home date with the Cavs on Christmas. The Bucks are on a back to back as well, but they are at home, and they didn't play a double OT game tonight.

Nailed it.

The Warriors looked tired and out of sorts. Their best shooters were clanking left and right, and they just looked indifferent all together.

[superdave]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14391158/chicago-bulls-72-win-team-kill-golden-state-warriors-charles-barkley-says

:cool:

[luburch]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14391158/chicago-bulls-72-win-team-kill-golden-state-warriors-charles-barkley-says

:cool:

What a surprise that a guy who played basketball in the 90s thinks that team would win. :cool:

[tbyers11]

What a surprise that a guy who played basketball in the 90s thinks that team would win. :cool:

Yeah. Chuck is definitely not an impartial observer.

[cato]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14391158/chicago-bulls-72-win-team-kill-golden-state-warriors-charles-barkley-says

:cool:

This is all you got?

[left_hook_lacey]

I thought it might be a good time to revisit this.

The Warriors sit at 32-2 with a game tonight against the "also ran" Lakers. The warriors were 27-5 at this point in the season last year and finished with 67 wins.

For comparison, the record-holding Bulls were 28-3 at this point in the season so, the potential for GS to break the record is still strong.


Just for fun, that Bulls team was 72-10 and lost all ten games by a combined 77 points which included a 32 point blowout. Throw that outlier out and they lost the other nine games by an average of 5 points a game. That's pretty amazing. But of course, 88.765% of all stats are made up.

[darthur]

I thought it might be a good time to revisit this.

The Warriors sit at 32-2 with a game tonight against the "also ran" Lakers. The warriors were 27-5 at this point in the season last year and finished with 67 wins.

Easy win over the Lakers - going up 32 after 3 quarters before resting everyone in the 4th.

Golden State's injury-free charms from last year have not carried over so well. Loss #2 came with Curry out, with Barnes out, with Ezeli out, and with Barbossa out - that's over 56 points and 96 minutes per game lost due to injury. Ouch. Curry and Barnes are back now though, so I'm hoping they have turned the corner.

On the other hand, I agree with Charles Barkley about one thing. As good as the Warriors have been, the Spurs have been even better over the last month or so. Not sure I can remember a season where two teams have looked so dominant at the same time. The Cavs seem like they might be on the verge of pulling it together too. The Warriors play both later this month - 72 wins is hard!

[BigWayne]

Golden State's injury-free charms from last year have not carried over so well. Loss #2 came with Curry out, with Barnes out, with Ezeli out, and with Barbossa out - that's over 56 points and 96 minutes per game lost due to injury. Ouch. Curry and Barnes are back now though, so I'm hoping they have turned the corner.



GS was far from injury free last year. Ezeli, Lee, and Bogut all had significant injuries that forced them out of a lot of action.

[Ichabod Drain]

Warriors are at 47-4 now with a 42 game home win streak. They'll need to go at least 26-5 over the rest of the season to break the record.

It's kinda funny that the Spurs are having such a great season and any other time would be getting some serious credit for what they're doing. But it's not any other time and the Warriors beat them by 30 a couple weeks ago.

[luburch]

Warriors are at 47-4 now with a 42 game home win streak. They'll need to go at least 26-5 over the rest of the season to break the record.

It's kinda funny that the Spurs are having such a great season and any other time would be getting some serious credit for what they're doing. But it's not any other time and the Warriors beat them by 30 a couple weeks ago.

Without looking at their remaining schedule, home/away games, etc., the Warriors are on pace to win 75.5686 according to my elementary equation.

They have won 47/51 possible games which is 92.15% of all possible games.

Multiply that by the remaining 31 games and you get 28.5686 wins.

47+28.5686 = 75.5686 wins, so between 75 and 76.

I really hope they do it.

[Wander]

Where is that guy superdave to tell us the Warriors are only a few bounces away from being 20-31 or something like that?

[yancem]

I was watching some of their game last night and I swear I was watching the Globe Trotters vs Washington Generals. Curry was letting it fly from everywhere and everything was going in. They are a very fun team to watch and when they get into a groove shooting, they are virtually unstoppable.

[superdave]

Where is that guy superdave to tell us the Warriors are only a few bounces away from being 20-31 or something like that?

No, my argument is all the teams from the 70s, 80s and 90s would have destroyed this GSW team. Even the Cavs without Love and Irving almost beat them in the Finals last year. I just think they have the perfect lineup for the way the defensive rules are currently written. Change the rules and they arent as good.

[cato]

No, my argument is all the teams from the 70s, 80s and 90s would have destroyed this GSW team. Even the Cavs without Love and Irving almost beat them in the Finals last year. I just think they have the perfect lineup for the way the defensive rules are currently written. Change the rules and they arent as good.

Would all those unbeatable teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s have destroyed Golden State by a greater or lesser margin than the Spurs did this year?

At any rate, I thought about you while reading this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/stephen-curry-nba/461901/

It is, of course, impossible to compare teams across eras. But one thing is clear to me: I would chose today's brand of basketball over the 70s, 80s or 90s every day of the week.

[CDu]

No, my argument is all the teams from the 70s, 80s and 90s would have destroyed this GSW team. Even the Cavs without Love and Irving almost beat them in the Finals last year. I just think they have the perfect lineup for the way the defensive rules are currently written. Change the rules and they arent as good.

For what little it is worth, I agree to a large extent. I think they'd be a very good team, but they wouldn't be anything like this. The NBA has taken a lot of steps in terms of rules changes to free up the game. But back in the day, guys like Thompson and Curry would get manhandled physically by less skilled but more physical defensive teams. They are a near-perfect team for today's NBA. But in the olden days? Notsomuch.

[CDu]

Would all those unbeatable teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s have destroyed Golden State by a greater or lesser margin than the Spurs did this year?

At any rate, I thought about you while reading this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/02/stephen-curry-nba/461901/

It is, of course, impossible to compare teams across eras. But one thing is clear to me: I would chose today's brand of basketball over the 70s, 80s or 90s every day of the week.

It's not about the talent of those teams of yore. It's about the rules, and the makeup of the roster relative to the rules. The Spurs are better constructed for the old days, but are playing by the new rules. The Warriors are perfectly suited for the new rules.

That said, I absolutely agree with you that the new rules are WAY better than the old days. And I say that as a Bulls fan who very much enjoyed the 90s.

[cato]

It's not about the talent of those teams of yore. It's about the rules, and the makeup of the roster relative to the rules. The Spurs are better constructed for the old days, but are playing by the new rules. The Warriors are perfectly suited for the new rules.

That said, I absolutely agree with you that the new rules are WAY better than the old days. And I say that as a Bulls fan who very much enjoyed the 90s.

You really think that a bunch of teams from 30 years of basketball would have "destroyed" this Golden State team? It's one thing to defend your Bulls as the greatest team ever. I can see the argument. It's another to completely dismiss the greatness of this team as a mere adaptation to the rules.

I do suggest reading the Atlantic article. It is very interesting.

[CDu]

You really think that a bunch of teams from 30 years of basketball would have "destroyed" this Golden State team? It's one thing to defend your Bulls as the greatest team ever. I can see the argument. It's another to completely dismiss the greatness of this team as a mere adaptation to the rules.

Did I say that they would "destroy" this Warriors team? No. I said this team wouldn't be nearly as good in that era. I think the Warriors would still be a good team. But so much of what they do well is to a large degree driven by the freedom of movement rules that it's hard to see them being a super team in that era. If you can mug Curry and Thompson without penalty like back then, those guys aren't nearly the players they are today. And if they aren't nearly the players they are, then the Warriors really aren't a super team. They could still be a good, even very good team. But not a super team.

I don't think they'd get "destroyed", but I don't think they'd be being talked about as a greatest-team-ever conversation. And it isn't because they aren't skilled enough. It's just that they aren't built for that era.

And that's not meant as a slight. The Celtics of the 50s and 60s aren't built for today's game. The late-80s Pistons weren't either. Nor where the 90s Knicks. Teams were built for the style of play of that era, and the best teams of that era were the ones with the best roster for the era.

[JNort]

But the same argument could go the other way also. I don't think many of those teams from yesteryear would compete in today's game. You can't say "the rules are the reason". I don't think Jordans Bulls team would secure a top 2 seed in the west

[CDu]

But the same argument could go the other way also. I don't think many of those teams from yesteryear would compete in today's game.

And I said exactly that in my post.


You can't say "the rules are the reason". I don't think Jordans Bulls team would secure a top 2 seed in the west

That's quite possible. Though the Bulls had a lot going for them, especially in the 96-98 stretch. Most notably, they often had 4 guys on the floor capable of defending 3-4 positions. Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman could defend almost anyone on the floor adequately.

Now, I don't think Harper would be nearly as effective in today's game (because he benefited from physical defense more than the others). But I do think Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman would still be very terrific defenders. The big question would be could they overcome the lack of shooters. They would be more like the 2008-2016 Bulls in that they aren't at all designed on a "space and pace" concept, whereas the rest of the league is. They'd be more like a Miami Heat team from the LeBron days, probably having to play Kukoc at the PF spot more in a Bosh-like role. I think they'd still be a top-tier team, but there is certainly room for disagreement. They almost certainly wouldn't win 72 though.

[cato]

Did I say that they would "destroy" this Warriors team? No. I said this team wouldn't be nearly as good in that era.


That is what superdave said, and that is what I responded to. I do recommend The Atlantic article, if you have not read it.

[CDu]

That is what superdave said, and that is what I responded to. I do recommend The Atlantic article, if you have not read it.

Well, you responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

And I read the article. It doesn't really change my perceptions at all. I don't disagree with any of it. But I am talking about different things than that article. I LOVE what Curry is doing. I LOVE the direction that the NBA is going. I have always preferred skill over brute force as the purest form of basketball. But that doesn't really change the point that this team wouldn't be nearly as successful in other eras where defenders were allowed to commit misdemeanors both on and off the ball.

[COYS]

What's amazing to me is that it's possible we have two historically great teams playing in the same conference this year. The Spurs actually have a better point differential despite their 8 losses (including getting blown out by the Warriors) and are ahead of the Warriors in ESPN's Basketball Power Index (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/Basketball-Power-Index/espn-nba-basketball-power-index). All signs point to the Warriors being better, considering the head to head results, but one could make a reasonable argument that the Spurs are at least just as good as the Warriors. That's insane.

And lost in all of this is how impressive the Thunder have been. Perhaps they are not destined for historical greatness, but they are a pretty dang good team on pace for 60+ wins. Most years, they'd be the favorites to win the title.

Anyway, the West might not quite have the depth that it has had in recent seasons, especially with the Rockets struggling more than expected. But the top teams in the West are ridiculously good. It's a shame that only one of the Warriors, Thunder, and Spurs can make it to the Finals.

[cato]

Well, you responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

And I read the article. It doesn't really change my perceptions at all. I don't disagree with any of it. But I am talking about different things than that article. I LOVE what Curry is doing. I LOVE the direction that the NBA is going. I have always preferred skill over brute force as the purest form of basketball. But that doesn't really change the point that this team wouldn't be nearly as successful in other eras where defenders were allowed to commit misdemeanors both on and off the ball.

Agreed. Trying to get a grasp on what Golden State and Curry mean in today's NBA is much more interesting than trying to compare teams across eras.

[darthur]

No, my argument is all the teams from the 70s, 80s and 90s would have destroyed this GSW team. Even the Cavs without Love and Irving almost beat them in the Finals last year. I just think they have the perfect lineup for the way the defensive rules are currently written. Change the rules and they arent as good.

All the best teams are built around the rules of their era, and would fare worse in the rules of different eras.

Anyway, defensive/energy specialists with some shooting ability + LeBron is a very good team, at least until LeBron dies of exhaustion. The Cavs were better last year in the playoffs with Kyrie+Love off the floor than on, and getting those two players back this year certainly didn't help. The Cavs' obliteration at home was one of LeBron's worst losses in his career.

It doesn't matter though. The Warriors could win out, but they'd still never be an elite team in your eyes because they needed 6 games to beat the undisputed best team in the East last year.

[Ichabod Drain]

48-4

[luburch]

The schedule does get more difficult when they return from the All-Star break.

Games left against the top 4 in the West and East:

Clippers (A,H)
Thunder (A,H)
Spurs (A,H,A)
Hawks (A,H)
Celtics (H)

Including the games above, the Warriors still have to play 12 Western Conference playoff teams and they still have to play 4 playoff teams from the East. That makes up 16 of their remaining 30 games.

[Skitzle]

The schedule does get more difficult when they return from the All-Star break.

Games left against the top 4 in the West and East:

Clippers (A,H)
Thunder (A,H)
Spurs (A,H,A)
Hawks (A,H)
Celtics (H)

Including the games above, the Warriors still have to play 12 Western Conference playoff teams and they still have to play 4 playoff teams from the East. That makes up 16 of their remaining 30 games.

Warriors are 9-0 Against those teams. Warriors are 21-2 against Playoff Teams and 27-2 against the rest.

If they go 10-6 in those games and win the other 14. They match the record.

FiveThirtyEight Projects them to go 73-9

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-nba-picks/

It's very very reasonable to think they will break the record.

Additionally FiveThirtyEight gives them a 50% chance to win it all. That means they have as much chance as the rest of the FIELD! When was the last time anyone was that dominant in the NBA?

[luburch]

Warriors are 9-0 Against those teams. Warriors are 21-2 against Playoff Teams and 27-2 against the rest.

If they go 10-6 in those games and win the other 14. They match the record.

FiveThirtyEight Projects them to go 73-9

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-nba-picks/

It's very very reasonable to think they will break the record.

Additionally FiveThirtyEight gives them a 50% chance to win it all. That means they have as much chance as the rest of the FIELD! When was the last time anyone was that dominant in the NBA?

I think the'll finish with 73-75 wins. Can't imagine anyone beating them in the playoffs either, which is a shame because I would like to see LeBron (and Kyrie) get a few more rings.

[Skitzle]

I've been tracking this. I'm a Warriors fan, but felt like updating.

They are now 52-5. 25 games left

For those who want to keep track of whether they are on pace or not, the Warriors need to go go 4-1 over each of their next 5 5 game stretches to match the record.

The Milestones are
56-6
60-7
64-8
68-9
72-10

This is very much in reach and very very cool. History in the making. :)

[elvis14]

How'd the other Curry kid (you know the one that didn't make it to Duke) do last night? I hear he's a pretty decent player.

[darthur]

How'd the other Curry kid (you know the one that didn't make it to Duke) do last night? I hear he's a pretty decent player.

Wowzer... just an incredible game tonight against OKC. I still don't know how GS won. They came out flat, they got absolutely creamed on the boards, they clanked multiple layups, and nobody other than Curry could buy a 3. But man it was entertaining, and it still felt very well played.

And yeah, that Curry guy is pretty decent. Two new records this game:

- Most 3 pointers in a game (12, tying Donyell Marshall and Kobe Bryant)
- Most 3 pointers in a season with 24 games left to go!

I love how a Steph Curry pull up from 30 is a reasonable putaway shot.

[Tom B.]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14862588

[moonpie23]

pretty sick what they are doing...

last night.....last second foul puts them in OT.....then the killa shot to win at the end of the ot....



just sick..

[dukebluesincebirth]

pretty sick what they are doing...

last night....last second foul puts them in OT....then the killa shot to win at the end of the ot...



just sick..

Yup... The last shot was a couple steps past half court. It's unlike anything we've ever seen. I'm blown away.

[Ichabod Drain]

But Steph would just be Dell Curry if he played in the handcheck era... right superdave?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMVGHoenXM

[elvis14]

I love how a Steph Curry pull up from 30 is a reasonable putaway shot.

This is what gets me. I was watching that game and when Curry pulled up for that 3, I didn't think "what the !@$@ is he doing?". Instead I figured that shot would go in.

[slower]

...is that Jordan will open his piehole to say that his teams were better and that GS couldn't have beaten them. Please, God, let them win 73 to erase that d-bag from at least one record.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

...is that Jordan will open his piehole to say that his teams were better and that GS couldn't have beaten them. Please, God, let them win 73 to erase that d-bag from at least one record.
He and Oscar could co-host a pity party together.

[DBFAN]

Last night I was so fortunate to tune in to the 4th quarter of that game, don't watch a lot of NBA. I am just gonna say he may indeed be playing the best basketball I've ever seen. I watched Jordan growing up, but what Steph does is mind boggling every night. I don't know if he will be as dominant as long as Jordan, only time will tell. I've just never seen someone play who is always 5 moves ahead of his opponent. Man if they could just get rid of Harrison Barnes I would root for them, but I just can't cheer in any capacity for him.

[BigWayne]

I had voted for 67-72 wins based on last year and the way the Warriors started out, but I never expected to see Curry playing out of his mind like this. At this point, I will be very surprised if they don't break the 72 win record.

[royalblue]

...is that Jordan will open his piehole to say that his teams were better and that GS couldn't have beaten them. Please, God, let them win 73 to erase that d-bag from at least one record.

Yea this is me also
Watching Curry makes me think of two words
Michael who?

[uh_no]

I had voted for 67-72 wins based on last year and the way the Warriors started out, but I never expected to see Curry playing out of his mind like this. At this point, I will be very surprised if they don't break the 72 win record.

538 has it as a better than 50-50 shot at this point....with their expected record having 9 losses

[WV_Iron_Duke]

And too think that Seth Greenberg wouldn't offer Steph a scholarship for his Freshman year. He could only "walkon" or redshirt.

[FerryFor50]

And too think that Seth Greenberg wouldn't offer Steph a scholarship for his Freshman year. He could only "walkon" or redshirt.

Man, how far off is your talent evaluation if you can't offer a scholly at VT?

[Skitzle]

Yea this is me also
Watching Curry makes me think of two words
Michael who?

Slow down blue.. Curry needs 3-5 rings and at least Another 6 years of being the best in the game before you can say Michael who...

[luburch]

Slow down blue.. Curry needs 3-5 rings and at least Another 6 years of being the best in the game before you can say Michael who...

Robert Horry has 7 rings. Horry>MJ

[FerryFor50]

On a side note, Phil Jackson answered the question of "have we seen anything like Steph Curry before" with "Chris Jackson/Mahmoud Abdul Rauf."

The insinuation was that Jackson/Rauf was a similar run and gun player.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE65D8EB0222C7F29

However, there is a VAST difference between him and Curry.

- Curry's PER this season is 32.9. Jackson/Rauf was never above 18.6
- Jackson's best season saw him average 19 ppg; Curry is averaging 30ppg this season
- In his best season, Jackson attempted 5.4 threes per game. Curry is MAKING 5.1 threes per game (on 11 attempts)
- Jackson's best FG% in a season was 47% (in a full season where he played major minutes; he shot 48% in his last season where he played 11.9 mpg); Curry is shooting 47% from THREE this season, 51.5% from the field.
- Jackson's best true FG% was 54% (this includes 2s, 3s and FTs.. and Jackson was an elite FT shooter); Curry has a 68.5% true shooting % and averages 61% for his career
- Curry has better stats despite similar USG to Jackson. Curry's average usage for his career is 26.6 (but a whopping 32% this season). Jackson's was 25.4.

The Warriors play at a pace of 100 this season. (100 possessions per 48 minutes)

In Jackson's best season, the Nuggets played at a pace of 92.2. This was back when the league played much slower - the Celtics led the league in pace at 96.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996.html

What Curry is doing this season is simply unreal. And that's not even factoring in his assist numbers.

[Mal]

What would be the equivalent, in just sheer on its face ridiculousness, to hearing the following statement a couple years ago (maybe even 6 months ago):

"It is possible that one player could make 400 3-pointers in a single NBA season."

He broke his own record 70% of the way through the season.

I keep waiting for someone to make the argument that with his lifetime 33% 3-pt shooting, the elimination of the illegal defense rule (and resultant drop in iso play), and the increase in lengthy, wingspanny perimeter defenders, Michael Jordan would have a hard time getting the ball in his hands in today's NBA.

Why are so many people seemingly (not anyone here, from what I can tell, but they're certainly out there the last couple weeks) invested with diminishing what Curry's doing? First of all, you're not actually supposed to be able to handcheck and ride a ballcarrier trying to get to the basket - now all of the sudden we're glorifying that as the epitome of defense and the apex of the game? Also, maybe in Oscar Robertson's day it was the case, but for my entire life (and I'm no longer a spring chicken), the NBA has been derided for its general lack of defense. I thought the truism is and always has been that no one buckles down defensively until the 4th quarter and Winning Time in the NBA. Has that changed now, and suddenly it was all suffocating full court pressure every regular season game in some past Golden Age, and every point guard was Gary Payton? All this roughness and toughness (mostly just the Pistons and the Knicks from my memory) from the '80's and '90's was considered an eyesore, a degradation of the game, back then, wasn't it? Now it's the glory days when it was impossible to score. I don't know, I saw it as the height of lazy defense. Methinks there's some selective memory going on here, and/or not a little bit of "get off my lawn" oldtimer griping.

Players today are bigger, faster and stronger than they were 20-30 years ago, there's more depth through the infusion of international players, and the style of play has evolved to take advantage of the fact that a made 3-pointer is worth 50% more than a made 2-pointer but shooting percentages on them aren't 50% lower. I think the proper lens through which to see Curry is that he's the culmination of an evolutionary process in player development. Maybe he won't keep this up for a decade, maybe he won't win twelve championships and become g.o.a.t., maybe his "style of play" doesn't translate across eras as well as some.* Who cares?

*I love hearing Jordan defenders use this one, apparently unaware of how utterly dominant Lebron James, at 6' 8", 250 with a 44 inch vertical and a 7 foot wingspan, might have been 20 years ago when zone defense and doubling a guy without the ball were illegal.

[InSpades]

On a side note, Phil Jackson answered the question of "have we seen anything like Steph Curry before" with "Chris Jackson/Mahmoud Abdul Rauf."

The insinuation was that Jackson/Rauf was a similar run and gun player.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE65D8EB0222C7F29

However, there is a VAST difference between him and Curry.

- Curry's PER this season is 32.9. Jackson/Rauf was never above 18.6
- Jackson's best season saw him average 19 ppg; Curry is averaging 30ppg this season
- In his best season, Jackson attempted 5.4 threes per game. Curry is MAKING 5.1 threes per game (on 11 attempts)
- Jackson's best FG% in a season was 47% (in a full season where he played major minutes; he shot 48% in his last season where he played 11.9 mpg); Curry is shooting 47% from THREE this season, 51.5% from the field.
- Jackson's best true FG% was 54% (this includes 2s, 3s and FTs.. and Jackson was an elite FT shooter); Curry has a 68.5% true shooting % and averages 61% for his career
- Curry has better stats despite similar USG to Jackson. Curry's average usage for his career is 26.6 (but a whopping 32% this season). Jackson's was 25.4.

The Warriors play at a pace of 100 this season. (100 possessions per 48 minutes)

In Jackson's best season, the Nuggets played at a pace of 92.2. This was back when the league played much slower - the Celtics led the league in pace at 96.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996.html

What Curry is doing this season is simply unreal. And that's not even factoring in his assist numbers.

Chris Jackson (Mamoud Abdul Rauf) was somewhat similar to Curry... in college. He's still one of the most amazing college players I've ever seen. He averaged 30.2 points his freshman year. That's astounding. No one shot 3s as much (or as well) back then but he was still something to see. Some of the games he had that year were just incredible. 50+ in a game as a freshman? I don't think we've seen anything like it since. Obviously it never quite translated into the pros and Curry is on another level. College though... they were similar (and I'd say Jackson was better).

[FerryFor50]

Chris Jackson (Mamoud Abdul Rauf) was somewhat similar to Curry... in college. He's still one of the most amazing college players I've ever seen. He averaged 30.2 points his freshman year. That's astounding. No one shot 3s as much (or as well) back then but he was still something to see. Some of the games he had that year were just incredible. 50+ in a game as a freshman? I don't think we've seen anything like it since. Obviously it never quite translated into the pros and Curry is on another level. College though... they were similar (and I'd say Jackson was better).

Fair assessment, for sure.

But one thing that stands out to me was that Curry did it at Davidson.

Jackson was at LSU. With SHAQ.

On a side note, check out this box score. LSU vs the run and gun Loyola team, before Hank Gathers passed:

http://www.lmulions.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/022405aab.html

[luburch]

What would be the equivalent, in just sheer on its face ridiculousness, to hearing the following statement a couple years ago (maybe even 6 months ago):

"It is possible that one player could make 400 3-pointers in a single NBA season."

He broke his own record 70% of the way through the season.

I keep waiting for someone to make the argument that with his lifetime 33% 3-pt shooting, the elimination of the illegal defense rule (and resultant drop in iso play), and the increase in lengthy, wingspanny perimeter defenders, Michael Jordan would have a hard time getting the ball in his hands in today's NBA.

Why are so many people seemingly (not anyone here, from what I can tell, but they're certainly out there the last couple weeks) invested with diminishing what Curry's doing? First of all, you're not actually supposed to be able to handcheck and ride a ballcarrier trying to get to the basket - now all of the sudden we're glorifying that as the epitome of defense and the apex of the game? Also, maybe in Oscar Robertson's day it was the case, but for my entire life (and I'm no longer a spring chicken), the NBA has been derided for its general lack of defense. I thought the truism is and always has been that no one buckles down defensively until the 4th quarter and Winning Time in the NBA. Has that changed now, and suddenly it was all suffocating full court pressure every regular season game in some past Golden Age, and every point guard was Gary Payton? All this roughness and toughness (mostly just the Pistons and the Knicks from my memory) from the '80's and '90's was considered an eyesore, a degradation of the game, back then, wasn't it? Now it's the glory days when it was impossible to score. I don't know, I saw it as the height of lazy defense. Methinks there's some selective memory going on here, and/or not a little bit of "get off my lawn" oldtimer griping.

Players today are bigger, faster and stronger than they were 20-30 years ago, there's more depth through the infusion of international players, and the style of play has evolved to take advantage of the fact that a made 3-pointer is worth 50% more than a made 2-pointer but shooting percentages on them aren't 50% lower. I think the proper lens through which to see Curry is that he's the culmination of an evolutionary process in player development. Maybe he won't keep this up for a decade, maybe he won't win twelve championships and become g.o.a.t., maybe his "style of play" doesn't translate across eras as well as some.* Who cares?

*I love hearing Jordan defenders use this one, apparently unaware of how utterly dominant Lebron James, at 6' 8", 250 with a 44 inch vertical and a 7 foot wingspan, might have been 20 years ago when zone defense and doubling a guy without the ball were illegal.

Wasn't able to spork you :( but I love everything about this post.

I saw something on Twitter that was talking about how the Big-O's championship team allowed an average of 106ish ppg...without the 3pt line. Talk about defense.

[TexHawk]

Fair assessment, for sure.

But one thing that stands out to me was that Curry did it at Davidson.

Jackson was at LSU. With SHAQ.

On a side note, check out this box score. LSU vs the run and gun Loyola team, before Hank Gathers passed:

http://www.lmulions.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/022405aab.html

Nicking pits, but Shaq didn't show up until Jackson's sophomore year. His 30.2 ppg came when he was a freshman. He put up 48, 49, 53, and 55 point games that season.

[JNort]

Last night in OT against the Hawks. This team is good but Curry takes them waaay over the top.

[luburch]

Last night in OT against the Hawks. This team is good but Curry takes them waaay over the top.

They were missing both Curry and Iguodala. Makes the win even more impressive.

[elvis14]

Watching Golden State play OKC tonight. What a great game. Kyle Singler is having a pretty good game. GSW has this kid named Curry who's not half bad. I think he might be related to Seth.

Seriously, so many good players in this game. It's fun to watch.

[luburch]

The Warriors are now 55-5 with twenty-two games remaining. No more games against the Thunder. One against the Clippers and three against the Spurs.

[duke4ever19]

Down goes Golden State to . . . the Lakers??

Any given day.

[JNort]

Down goes Golden State to . . . the Lakers??

Any given day.

But.... but.... they were just trying to give Kobe a good farewell

[dukelifer]

San Antonio and Golden State showing how grown men play basketball at a high level. This is NBA Finals level basketball. Tough game.

[dukelifer]

San Antonio and Golden State showing how grown men play basketball at a high level. This is NBA Finals level basketball. Tough game.

Curry 1-12 from deep. That does not happen often and likely to be reproduced by SA. This game was intense.

[YmoBeThere]

Curry 1-12 from deep. That does not happen often and likely to be reproduced by SA. This game was intense.

And the correct team won.

[BigWayne]

Losing to what is clearly the only other team in their class by 8 points on the road in the second night of a back to back, with no big man........I actually like their chances at getting the record now. There are only 2 or 3 games left on the schedule they are likely to have any trouble winning, even with Bogut and Ezeli out. They have a home and home with SA, the @SA once again on the second night of a back to back. They also have a road game at Utah that is a second night of back to back. To get the record, they need to beat all the other teams and pick up one of those three as a win. Far from guaranteed, but they have a pretty good chance of making history, especially if Bogut comes back quickly.

[slower]

Losing to what is clearly the only other team in their class by 8 points on the road in the second night of a back to back, with no big man...I actually like their chances at getting the record now. There are only 2 or 3 games left on the schedule they are likely to have any trouble winning, even with Bogut and Ezeli out. They have a home and home with SA, the @SA once again on the second night of a back to back. They also have a road game at Utah that is a second night of back to back. To get the record, they need to beat all the other teams and pick up one of those three as a win. Far from guaranteed, but they have a pretty good chance of making history, especially if Bogut comes back quickly.

PLEASE let it happen, if for nothing else than to see Jordan act like a petulant a-hole (which, of course, is his default setting).

[jv001]

PLEASE let it happen, if for nothing else than to see Jordan act like a petulant a-hole (which, of course, is his default setting).

With Jordan it's not an act. It's just the way he is. GoDuke!

[luburch]

Warriors are now 64-7 and need to finish 9-2 to break the record.

Remaining schedule:
Dallas (H)
Philadelphia (H)
Washington (H)
Utah (A)
Boston (H)
Portland (H)
Minnesota (H)
San Antonio (H)
Memphis (A)
San Antonio (A)
Memphis (H)

The away games at Utah and at San Antonio are both the second night of a back-to-back. Looks like this is going to come down to the wire. If the Warriors are sitting at 70-9 with first place in the west locked up and are playing away at San Antonio, does Pop rest his starters?

[dukebluesincebirth]

Warriors are now 64-7 and need to finish 9-2 to break the record.

Remaining schedule:
Dallas (H)
Philadelphia (H)
Washington (H)
Utah (A)
Boston (H)
Portland (H)
Minnesota (H)
San Antonio (H)
Memphis (A)
San Antonio (A)
Memphis (H)

The away games at Utah and at San Antonio are both the second night of a back-to-back. Looks like this is going to come down to the wire. If the Warriors are sitting at 70-9 with first place in the west locked up and are playing away at San Antonio, does Pop rest his starters?

I haven't been totally convinced until this point, but now I think it's on...these guys are going to break the record. AMAZING!

[luburch]

Up to 66-7. To no one's surprise, they managed to take care of the 76ers again last night.

Washington (H) 3/29 - TNT
Utah (A) Second night of a back-to-back
Boston (H) 4/1 - ESPN
Portland (H)
Minnesota (H) 4/5 - TNT
San Antonio (H) 4/7 - TNT
Memphis (A)
San Antonio (A) Second night of a back-to-back.
Memphis (H)

I added info about the games that are nationally televised. This is now appointment viewing and ticket prices are through the roof.

[pfrduke]

Up to 66-7. To no one's surprise, they managed to take care of the 76ers again last night.

Washington (H) 3/29 - TNT
Utah (A) Second night of a back-to-back
Boston (H) 4/1 - ESPN
Portland (H)
Minnesota (H) 4/5 - TNT
San Antonio (H) 4/7 - TNT
Memphis (A)
San Antonio (A) Second night of a back-to-back.
Memphis (H)

I added info about the games that are nationally televised. This is now appointment viewing and ticket prices are through the roof.

Now 67-7 after a comfortable win over the Wizards. 5-3 to tie, 6-2 to break. Ordinarily those San Antonio games would look very threatening, but I expect Popovich to be taking his foot way off the gas by that point to ensure everyone is healthy for the playoffs (as an aside, it's crazy that San Antonio is about to have one of the 10 best regular seasons in NBA history and basically has no chance at the top seed in their own conference).

[left_hook_lacey]

Now 67-7 after a comfortable win over the Wizards. 5-3 to tie, 6-2 to break. Ordinarily those San Antonio games would look very threatening, but I expect Popovich to be taking his foot way off the gas by that point to ensure everyone is healthy for the playoffs (as an aside, it's crazy that San Antonio is about to have one of the 10 best regular seasons in NBA history and basically has no chance at the top seed in their own conference).

Yeah, all the Jordan fanatics out there are probably seething that the majority of the games left on the schedule that could pose any threat may be resting players for a playoff run.

Which poses the question, does GS do the same, or do they go after the record full-tilt? Which is more important to them and the coach, healthy/rested players going into the playoffs or the regular season record?

That Bulls team broke the record AND won the championship, can GS do the same? Do they even try?

As a player, I would rather win the championship and the regular season record just be a by-product if it came to be. Does anyone remember if the Bulls rested any players that year while gearing up for playoffs? If so that record is even more impressive, but I just don't see Jordan sitting if healthy in any circumstance.

[cato]

Yeah, all the Jordan fanatics out there are probably seething that the majority of the games left on the schedule that could pose any threat may be resting players for a playoff run.

Which poses the question, does GS do the same, or do they go after the record full-tilt? Which is more important to them and the coach, healthy/rested players going into the playoffs or the regular season record?

That Bulls team broke the record AND won the championship, can GS do the same? Do they even try?

As a player, I would rather win the championship and the regular season record just be a by-product if it came to be. Does anyone remember if the Bulls rested any players that year while gearing up for playoffs? If so that record is even more impressive, but I just don't see Jordan sitting if healthy in any circumstance.

Kerr has said that, if healthy, the players will have a say in taking rest days. I take that at face value. On the one hand, chasing the record must be physically and mentally draining. On the other, coming so close and falling short runs it's own risk.

It will be interesting to see what happens if they win a few more to get home court advantage secured. With both San Antonio and Golden State so dominant at home, home court advantage could mean the difference between making the finals and going home early. In some ways, the Spurs own magnificent season has been a help to the coaching staff. They could legitimately focus on a meaningful goal to with the championship -- secure the number 1 seed -- a byproduct of which is advancing toward the regular season mark.

[DUKIECB]

Yeah, all the Jordan fanatics out there are probably seething that the majority of the games left on the schedule that could pose any threat may be resting players for a playoff run.

Which poses the question, does GS do the same, or do they go after the record full-tilt? Which is more important to them and the coach, healthy/rested players going into the playoffs or the regular season record?

That Bulls team broke the record AND won the championship, can GS do the same? Do they even try?

As a player, I would rather win the championship and the regular season record just be a by-product if it came to be. Does anyone remember if the Bulls rested any players that year while gearing up for playoffs? If so that record is even more impressive, but I just don't see Jordan sitting if healthy in any circumstance.If you look at the last few games of the Bulls season that year, Jordan did play every game but at somewhat reduced minutes. In the last 5 games he probably averaged around 28 to 30 mpg so it wasn't like he was on the bench in street clothes. All of the other starters were playing as well and at close to their season average in mpg.

[BigWayne]

I live in the SF bay area and get all the local media. I would be very surprised if GS rests anyone before getting the record. Early on, when the topic came up, the team and media spent a lot of time claiming that another NBA championship was the main goal and the record was simply a nice to have. Over the last few weeks, that has shifted and the talk of chasing the record is right up there at fairly equal standing. If they do not get the record, it's going to be a significant letdown until at least the moment they get past the first round of the playoffs.

[Ichabod Drain]

I live in the SF bay area and get all the local media. I would be very surprised if GS rests anyone before getting the record. Early on, when the topic came up, the team and media spent a lot of time claiming that another NBA championship was the main goal and the record was simply a nice to have. Over the last few weeks, that has shifted and the talk of chasing the record is right up there at fairly equal standing. If they do not get the record, it's going to be a significant letdown until at least the moment they get past the first round of the playoffs.

Also they're first round opponent will likely be Houston, Dallas, or Utah. The Warriors are 9-1 against those teams this season with the one loss coming against Dallas in a game Curry did not play. They will most likely get plenty of rest by round 2 of the playoffs.

[Wander]

Kerr has said that, if healthy, the players will have a say in taking rest days. I take that at face value. On the one hand, chasing the record must be physically and mentally draining. On the other, coming so close and falling short runs it's own risk.


Someone wins the NBA championship every year. This season is once in a lifetime. They should definitely chase the record.

[BigWayne]

Well they picked up the road win on a 2nd night of a back to back that they needed to make the record reasonably possible. Even ESPN's computer calculations give them an 80% chance after tonight's win.

[dukelifer]

Kerr has said that, if healthy, the players will have a say in taking rest days. I take that at face value. On the one hand, chasing the record must be physically and mentally draining. On the other, coming so close and falling short runs it's own risk.

It will be interesting to see what happens if they win a few more to get home court advantage secured. With both San Antonio and Golden State so dominant at home, home court advantage could mean the difference between making the finals and going home early. In some ways, the Spurs own magnificent season has been a help to the coaching staff. They could legitimately focus on a meaningful goal to with the championship -- secure the number 1 seed -- a byproduct of which is advancing toward the regular season mark.

It will be interesting to see what kind of fight they get from other teams from here on out.

[luburch]

So I know there's been a lot of talk about if Durant were to join the Warriors in the offseason, but what is stopping LeBron from making that same move?

[Skitzle]

So I know there's been a lot of talk about if Durant were to join the Warriors in the offseason, but what is stopping LeBron from making that same move?

Chemistry issues. Don't think the ws would bite

[dukelifer]

So I know there's been a lot of talk about if Durant were to join the Warriors in the offseason, but what is stopping LeBron from making that same move?

The NBA. Didn't they stop Chris Paul from joining the Laker's? You don't want the Warriors to become UConn women's basketball.

[COYS]

The NBA. Didn't they stop Chris Paul from joining the Laker's? You don't want the Warriors to become UConn women's basketball.

The NBA vetoed a trade that would've sent Paul to the Lakers. Free agents can go anywhere without restriction provides the team signing them can fit the player's salary into the cap and/or pay theappropriate penalties for going over.

Still, why would the Warriors, who are one of the best teams of all time, spend so much money on an aging Lebron? I doubt it happens.

[Ichabod Drain]

The NBA vetoed a trade that would've sent Paul to the Lakers. Free agents can go anywhere without restriction provides the team signing them can fit the player's salary into the cap and/or pay theappropriate penalties for going over.

Still, why would the Warriors, who are one of the best teams of all time, spend so much money on an aging Lebron? I doubt it happens.

Also the NBA owned the Hornets at the time (New Orleans Hornets that is). I could be wrong but I believe that played a role in them being able to shut the CP3 to Lakers trade down as well.

[Indoor66]

The NBA vetoed a trade that would've sent Paul to the Lakers. Free agents can go anywhere without restriction provides the team signing them can fit the player's salary into the cap and/or pay theappropriate penalties for going over.

Still, why would the Warriors, who are one of the best teams of all time, spend so much money on an aging Lebron? I doubt it happens.

The Warriors have no need for a ball stopping new coach.:mad::cool:

[luburch]

The NBA vetoed a trade that would've sent Paul to the Lakers. Free agents can go anywhere without restriction provides the team signing them can fit the player's salary into the cap and/or pay theappropriate penalties for going over.

Still, why would the Warriors, who are one of the best teams of all time, spend so much money on an aging Lebron? I doubt it happens.

Oh I think there is a 0% chance that it happens, but I still like to think about it. And why would they do it? Because an again LeBron is still one of the top 2 players in the NBA and it means you wouldn't have to face him in the finals.

[dukelifer]

The NBA vetoed a trade that would've sent Paul to the Lakers. Free agents can go anywhere without restriction provides the team signing them can fit the player's salary into the cap and/or pay theappropriate penalties for going over.

Still, why would the Warriors, who are one of the best teams of all time, spend so much money on an aging Lebron? I doubt it happens.

Ah yes. The key to this would be Lebron accepting less money.

[COYS]

Also the NBA owned the Hornets at the time (New Orleans Hornets that is). I could be wrong but I believe that played a role in them being able to shut the CP3 to Lakers trade down as well.

You're definitely right about the league owning the New Orleans Hornets at the time, and I think you're right about that playing a role in the vetoing of the trade. Thanks for adding that detail.

[DukeTrinity11]

AND the Warriors lose their first game in the Oracle to the Celtics!! WOW! Brad Stevens coached a masterpiece.

Boston had the perfect recipe to beat this juggernaut team: 2 elite on-ball defenders in Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart who could cover the Splash Brothers. Sullinger and Amir Johnson had some key offensive rebounds and hit some big shots as well. Isaiah Thomas was spectacular offensively in the 2nd half as well.

Its amazing how well the Celtics are doing this year. Brad Stevens might be a top 3 coach in the NBA right now.

[jimsumner]

I stayed up way too late to watch that one.

It was worth it.

I'm always a bit perplexed by folks who maintain that NBA basketball is boring.

And, news flash. That Stevens fellow sure can coach.

[jv001]

I've been watching more and more NBA basketball and I have to say it's not like the pro game I watched several years ago. I guess the FOM rules make for a more entertaining game. I watched some of the Cavs-Hawks game last night and it was pretty entertaining. Kyrie with an off night shooting but he made some pressure free throws down the stretch. I wanted to watch the Celtics-Warriors game but I could not hold my eyes open. See where they lost to a good up and coming Celtic's team with a great young coach. GoDuke!

[luburch]

Up to 69-8. Put up 136 against the Blazer's last night. Come on Warriors, please get this so I can hear less and less from that insufferable Bulls team.

Minnesota (H) 4/5 - TNT
San Antonio (H) 4/7 - TNT
Memphis (A)
San Antonio (A) Second night of a back-to-back.
Memphis (H)

[cato]

Watching a pretty boring Warriors TWolves game, I just saw Tyus Jones hit a nice one handed skip pass to Shabazz Muhammed, who knocked down an open three. Huh, I thought. Shabazz looks 30. That lead to some googling, since I had not followed the guy closely since the days of recruiting buzz.

Well, it turns out, he isn't 30. But he is a year older than he told everyone back when he was in school. Did everyone else know about this?

Tyus making some nice passes, but not doing a good job keeping Steph in check. Step it up Stones!

Golden State better clean up their play. Tyus just cut the lead to 3 with 10 to play.

ETA: oh, do I miss Tyus Jones. Vision, touch, poise. Wow.

[subzero02]

Down go the warriors....with 2 of their 4 remaining games coming against the spurs, Duncan and company could keep them from breaking the record. That being said, with homecourt advantage pretty much out of reach, I sure Pop doesn't give a friar tuck about the Warriors and history.

[Ichabod Drain]

Watching a pretty boring Warriors TWolves game, I just saw Tyus Jones hit a nice one handed skip pass to Shabazz Muhammed, who knocked down an open three. Huh, I thought. Shabazz looks 30. That lead to some googling, since I had not followed the guy closely since the days of recruiting buzz.

Well, it turns out, he isn't 30. But he is a year older than he told everyone back when he was in school. Did everyone else know about this?


Yea the Shabazz age thing came out a few years ago and then shortly after that his dad was sentenced to prison for some type of fraud. Seems like it was a convenient miss for Duke on him.

[Troublemaker]

Down go the warriors...with 2 of their 4 remaining games coming against the spurs, Duncan and company could keep them from breaking the record. That being said, with homecourt advantage pretty much out of reach, I sure Pop doesn't give a friar tuck about the Warriors and history.

Draymond Green explaining that the Warriors are getting bored with the regular season (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15144966/draymond-green-says-golden-state-warriors-ready-regular-season-end). I can't imagine that answer is very satisfying to their fans. Usually enthusiasm rises when people smell the finish line to a cherished long-term project.

[cato]

Draymond Green explaining that the Warriors are getting bored with the regular season (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15144966/draymond-green-says-golden-state-warriors-ready-regular-season-end). I can't imagine that answer is very satisfying to their fans. Usually enthusiasm rises when people smell the finish line to a cherished long-term project.

They looked horrible from when I tuned in until the game got close. And the arena was dead, with the Warriors up comfortably in the 3rd. A few nice passes by Tyus, a few sloppy possessions by GS, and boom, the pressure was on. I imagine the strain is starting to take its toll.

[moonpie23]

the warriors were saved tonight by swallowed whistles on the last play. Obviously a foul.

[Troublemaker]

Spurs are 5.5 point favorites over the Warriors this evening.

I wish I had NBATV. This game might set the record for ratings on that channel.

[Troublemaker]

They looked horrible from when I tuned in until the game got close. And the arena was dead, with the Warriors up comfortably in the 3rd. A few nice passes by Tyus, a few sloppy possessions by GS, and boom, the pressure was on. I imagine the strain is starting to take its toll.

Very possible. They could really use a 1st-round sweep to get in some extra rest days since they've been going for the record at the end of the regular season.

[Troublemaker]

Spurs are 5.5 point favorites over the Warriors this evening.

I wish I had NBATV. This game might set the record for ratings on that channel.

Luckily I have a friend with NBATV.

Warriors 62, Spurs 57, under 2min left in Q3

This is the most riveting regular season defensive battle I can remember.

C'mon, Dubs, let's get this record. (I'm not even a GSW fan. Just want to see records broken).

[Troublemaker]

3:50 left 4Q

84-75, Dubs.

If they hang on, it was much sweeter to reach 72 this way on the Spurs homecourt.

[FerryFor50]

C'mon, Dubs, let's get this record. (I'm not even a GSW fan. Just want to see records broken).

Especially that record. I'm pretty tired of every time someone gets close to the record, Pippen and Jordan pipe up about how they'd have swept X team in a series.

About as obnoxious as the '72 Dolphins.

[Troublemaker]

Especially that record. I'm pretty tired of every time someone gets close to the record, Pippen and Jordan pipe up about how they'd have swept X team in a series.

About as obnoxious as the '72 Dolphins.

The Spurs are going to be 39-1 at home after this game.

What a sick, sick way to get your 72nd win.

Now, crush Memphis at home on Wednesday for 73. That's going to be such a party in that arena.

[FerryFor50]

The Spurs are going to be 39-1 at home after this game.

What a sick, sick way to get your 72nd win.

And San Antonio, which has been pretty renowned for mailing in games that don't matter by sitting key players, actually tried to win this one (unless you count sitting Tim Duncan). They didn't want to be part of the record.

[darthur]

the warriors were saved tonight by swallowed whistles on the last play. Obviously a foul.

Well as a Golden State fan, I'm on cloud 9 right now. 72 is nice of course, but I'm also very very happy that the 10 year losing streak at San Antonio is over. Good sign for the playoffs too!

Buuut with respect to officiating vs Memphis... the NBA does a really cool thing which is they publish post-games video reviews of all calls & no-calls in the final 2 minutes of close games. They declare no foul:

http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/04/L2M-GSW-MEM-4-9-16.pdf

Attempt #1: "Thompson (GSW) makes incidental contact with Stephenson (MEM) that does not affect his jump shot attempt. Stephenson kicks out his leg and initiates the contact, but the contact is not enough for an offensive foul."
Atttempt #2: "Curry (GSW) makes incidental contact with Stephenson (MEM) after the release of his jump shot."

Overall, they say that all whistles were correct, but there were incorrect no-calls. Memphis should have gotten three more fouls called against them, GS one more.


And San Antonio, which has been pretty renowned for mailing in games that don't matter by sitting key players, actually tried to win this one (unless you count sitting Tim Duncan).

You shouldn't IMO. He was completely unable to keep up with GS's speed last game.

[luburch]

Steph just completely took over in the second half last night. H'es a joy to watch.

I really would like to stay up and watch them go for the record on Wednesday. A 10:30 tip on a weeknight though, woof.

[Wander]

Of all the ridiculous Golden State stats, the most absurd one to me is now that Klay Thompson ALSO broke the non-Curry record for most 3's in a season. Unreal.

[elvis14]

Of all the ridiculous Golden State stats, the most absurd one to me is now that Klay Thompson ALSO broke the non-Curry record for most 3's in a season. Unreal.

Klay Thompson is really really good and not just because he's playing with Curry. I almost feel bad for him because his greatness is being overshadowed by Curry's uber greatness! Thompson shoots is really well and he plays great defense as well. When I think about how well the GSW have done the first 3 guys I think of are Curry, Thompson and Green. It all starts with them.

I hope they can win that last game and set the record.

[Indoor66]

Klay Thompson is really really good and not just because he's playing with Curry. I almost feel bad for him because his greatness is being overshadowed by Curry's uber greatness! Thompson shoots is really well and he plays great defense as well. When I think about how well the GSW have done the first 3 guys I think of are Curry, Thompson and Green. It all starts with them.

I hope they can win that last game and set the record.

I'll bet he cashes all the checks with a smile.

[JasonEvans]

I'll bet he cashes all the checks with a smile.

Klay is making $15.5 mil to play this year, $4 mil more than his teammate, Steph.

Speaking of contracts, we get to enjoy Golden State for one more year after this season and then it all likely blows up. The free agents at the end of next season are: Curry, Barnes, Iggy, Bogut, and Ezeli. I'm sure they will pay whatever it takes to keep Curry when he becomes a free agent in 2017 (5 year deal at something like $180 mil is what I have heard). While the cap is about to explode, I wonder how much money will be left to try to keep one or two of the other free agents (Barnes is the most likely to get signed... perhaps for only $15 mil a season?). That said, I imagine that if they merely keep Curry, Thompson, and Green they have enough to win 65+ games with just about anyone else making up the rest of the roster.

-Jason "speaking of money, this article says (http://www.businessinsider.com/steph-curry-worth-14-billion-to-under-armour-2016-3) Curry is worth... wait for it... $14 billion to Under Armour. That's Billion with a B... I wonder if his next shoe contract will top $100 mil per season?" Evans

[Potato Head]

I almost feel bad for him because his greatness is being overshadowed by Curry's uber greatness!

I don't. He is a great player, but this team with these teammates and this coach make him better, not worse.

[awhom111]

Klay is making $15.5 mil to play this year, $4 mil more than his teammate, Steph.

Speaking of contracts, we get to enjoy Golden State for one more year after this season and then it all likely blows up. The free agents at the end of next season are: Curry, Barnes, Iggy, Bogut, and Ezeli. I'm sure they will pay whatever it takes to keep Curry when he becomes a free agent in 2017 (5 year deal at something like $180 mil is what I have heard). While the cap is about to explode, I wonder how much money will be left to try to keep one or two of the other free agents (Barnes is the most likely to get signed... perhaps for only $15 mil a season?). That said, I imagine that if they merely keep Curry, Thompson, and Green they have enough to win 65+ games with just about anyone else making up the rest of the roster.

-Jason "speaking of money, this article says (http://www.businessinsider.com/steph-curry-worth-14-billion-to-under-armour-2016-3) Curry is worth... wait for it... $14 billion to Under Armour. That's Billion with a B... I wonder if his next shoe contract will top $100 mil per season?" Evans

This offseason will be the interesting one since it may be the last one with a ton of flexibililty for us. Barnes and Ezeli are actually restricted this offseason and Barnes already turned down a 4/64 extension in the offseason. That was probably a good decision on his part for once since he is worth more than that right now on the open market. That is why there is talk about making one big signing this offseason since paying Barnes the max may not be more palatable than trying to replace his production in a different way (or perhaps signing that KD guy). There will also be a market for Ezeli, but he has expressed interest in staying so we could have the time to work out the rest of our moves and still have the chance to pay him well.

A lot of other factors will be at play on how ownership handles the future. If the arena gets built here, keeping the team strong will keep the money flowing in so that luxury tax implications are not too bad. Of course, there are always concerns about what rules a new CBA could bring.

I think management would like to keep the core together, which is certainly possible, but Barnes may be trying to blow that up himself. Some of our bench and role players will either get paid more than we would like or lose effectiveness in the next year or two, so decisions will have to be made soon, especially if making the big move is not possible.

[elvis14]

I don't. He is a great player, but this team with these teammates and this coach make him better, not worse.

I think it goes both ways. His teammates and coaches do make him better and he does the same for them. They kinda got a good thing going in GS right now.

[Kfanarmy]

The Spurs are going to be 39-1 at home after this game.

What a sick, sick way to get your 72nd win.

Now, crush Memphis at home on Wednesday for 73. That's going to be such a party in that arena.


if you think the NBA was going to allow the $ that is coming in from casual fans watching the GS Ws chase for the record go down the drain with one game remaining...

[Ichabod Drain]

if you think the NBA was going to allow the $ that is coming in from casual fans watching the GS Ws chase for the record go down the drain with one game remaining...

If the NBA was that concerned about casual fans watching they should have put the game on somewhere other than NBA TV.

[darthur]

If the NBA was that concerned about casual fans watching they should have put the game on somewhere other than NBA TV.

Crazy right?

Even locally, (a) NBA TV was blacked out because it was on the local station, but (b) the local station didn't switch over to the game until the Giants extra innings game ended. Grrr. The deliberate slowness of baseball is never quite so annoying as when you are waiting for a game to end :p.

[moonpie23]

man, i hope memphis crushes golden state's dream...

[timmy c]

man, i hope memphis crushes golden state's dream...

wow. Is this reverse jinxs, or are you serious. If so, why?

[BigWayne]

wow. Is this reverse jinxs, or are you serious. If so, why?

moonpie23 - must be a Jordan fan and doesn't want to see his idol's record surpassed. :)

[timmy c]

moonpie23 - must be a Jordan fan and doesn't want to see his idol's record surpassed. :)

Double wow! Shots fired. 💣

I'm hoping the game is a great with lots of scoring. Maybe a buzzer beater by steph for the win.

[moonpie23]

3 reasons.......


1 - HWNSNBM

2 - HWMFNSNBM

3 - Sick of the mouth guard and it's owner.

[luburch]

Tonight's the night. Going to do my best to stay up for the entire thing. Hopefully the Warriors are blowing them out by halftime. Please get 73!

[Ichabod Drain]

3 reasons....


1 - HWNSNBM

2 - HWMFNSNBM

3 - Sick of the mouth guard and it's owner.

Seth?

[dudog84]

3 reasons....


1 - HWNSNBM

2 - HWMFNSNBM

3 - Sick of the mouth guard and it's owner.

I sympathize with the HWNSNBM thought a bit, but most people don't even know he's on the team. This is Steph Curry's team. Then you think Thompson, Green. He might be #4. Vs. Jordan's team. I'll take Golden State.

I don't get the dislike of Curry. Sure he shimmies a bit after a shot, but you have to go pretty deep to find non-posers after a shot, non-TD dancers, not-bat flippers, etc. I'm old school (Chuck Noll famously said of TDs "Act like you've been there before"), but that's the game(s) today.

[elvis14]

I sympathize with the HWNSNBM thought a bit, but most people don't even know he's on the team. This is Steph Curry's team. Then you think Thompson, Green. He might be #4. Vs. Jordan's team. I'll take Golden State.

I don't get the dislike of Curry. Sure he shimmies a bit after a shot, but you have to go pretty deep to find non-posers after a shot, non-TD dancers, not-bat flippers, etc. I'm old school (Chuck Noll famously said of TDs "Act like you've been there before"), but that's the game(s) today.

I feel the same way. Generally I think the GSW team succeeds despite having HWMNBN (aka Harry Skype). He's a role player and it's Curry, Thompson and Green that make this team go. As for Curry (both of them), sure I'd like for them to stop chewing on mouth guards...but it's a pretty minor offense in my book and I hope they both find continued success. Stephen Curry is just about everyone's favorite NBA player all of a sudden....it's just hard not to get behind the guy. If you look beyond Duke players, I'd rather watch Steph Curry play than just about anyone (with Westbrook not far behind).

[moonpie23]

I don't get the dislike of Curry. Sure he shimmies a bit after a shot, but you have to go pretty deep to find non-posers after a shot, non-TD dancers, not-bat flippers, etc. I'm old school (Chuck Noll famously said of TDs "Act like you've been there before"), but that's the game(s) today.

it's not what he does after an incredible shot......it's how he handles being called for a foul, or turning the ball over , or NOT getting a foul called, or missing an easy bucket......the arrogance of all he does that's amazing, won't let him be humble enough to EVER think he may have NOT done something amazing. He's NEVER committed a foul...EVER.......the way he shakes his head at ANYTHING negative says "no, there's no way".


and the mouthpiece just bugs me.....i don't know why....it just really bugs me...

[luburch]

it's not what he does after an incredible shot...it's how he handles being called for a foul, or turning the ball over , or NOT getting a foul called, or missing an easy bucket...the arrogance of all he does that's amazing, won't let him be humble enough to EVER think he may have NOT done something amazing. He's NEVER committed a foul...EVER....the way he shakes his head at ANYTHING negative says "no, there's no way".


and the mouthpiece just bugs me....i don't know why...it just really bugs me...

Yikes. Do you like any current NBA players then?

[dudog84]

luburch, I was thinking the same thing. :)

moonpie, here's something to make you root for Golden State a little more...Scottie Pippin has said his Bulls would SWEEP the Warriors in a playoff series.

[moonpie23]

luburch, I was thinking the same thing. :)

moonpie, here's something to make you root for Golden State a little more...Scottie Pippin has said his Bulls would SWEEP the Warriors in a playoff series.

scotty is close to being right.....i don't think they would sweep, more like 4-1

[dudog84]

scotty is close to being right....i don't think they would sweep, more like 4-1

Because they went 4-2 against Seattle?

[cato]

I'm a convert to the Warriors and a big fan of Seth's bro. I always respected Steph, but it was Seth that made me really like the whole family.

The Bulls stuff is just silly. Retired players should refrain from making meaningless boasts. The Bulls were great, although I disliked them considerably. The Warriors are great too, and the NBA is lightyears ahead of where the game was in the 90s.

Also, I don't have the time or energy to worry about former Tarheel role players once they leave school.

I'll be pulling for GS tonight for sure.

[subzero02]

Memphis had the last meeting stolen from them on a no-call. Go grizzlies.

[Troublemaker]

Warriors are 18-pt favorites. Somehow that seems low. They'll be partying in Oracle tonight.

[JNort]

it's not what he does after an incredible shot...it's how he handles being called for a foul, or turning the ball over , or NOT getting a foul called, or missing an easy bucket...the arrogance of all he does that's amazing, won't let him be humble enough to EVER think he may have NOT done something amazing. He's NEVER committed a foul...EVER....the way he shakes his head at ANYTHING negative says "no, there's no way".


and the mouthpiece just bugs me....i don't know why...it just really bugs me...


Wow none of that made sense. He might be the most humble guy in the league. You are hating a guy for having fun it sounds like. Kind of like the Cam Newton haters, doesn't really do anything wrong other than have fun.

Why do peoplease hate on the mouth guard to btw? I never notice it. It's harmless and no different than any other odd quirks of a pro athlete

[elvis14]

Wow none of that made sense. He might be the most humble guy in the league. You are hating a guy for having fun it sounds like. Kind of like the Cam Newton haters, doesn't really do anything wrong other than have fun.

I'm with JNort on this one. I love watching Steph Curry play and one of the main reasons is how much he obviously loves to play. I just don't see much arrogance there.

FWIW, I'm generally a fan of players who play well and seem to be having more fun than everyone else around them.

[DevilBen02]

Wow none of that made sense. He might be the most humble guy in the league. You are hating a guy for having fun it sounds like. Kind of like the Cam Newton haters, doesn't really do anything wrong other than have fun.

Why do peoplease hate on the mouth guard to btw? I never notice it. It's harmless and no different than any other odd quirks of a pro athlete

Maybe it isn't rational, but I seem to be more with moonpie on this one. Admittedly, I only watch the NBA occasionally, but I have seen a few Warriors games this season (and I'll probably watch at least some of tonight's game), and the nonchalant way that Steph often operates, including the casual gnawing on the mouthguard, just comes across as smug for some reason. Again, it may not be rational, and he may very well be the most humble guy in the league, but that hasn't come across to me from the little coverage I've seen this year.

[JasonEvans]

Maybe it isn't rational, but I seem to be more with moonpie on this one. Admittedly, I only watch the NBA occasionally, but I have seen a few Warriors games this season (and I'll probably watch at least some of tonight's game), and the nonchalant way that Steph often operates, including the casual gnawing on the mouthguard, just comes across as smug for some reason. Again, it may not be rational, and he may very well be the most humble guy in the league, but that hasn't come across to me from the little coverage I've seen this year.

If I was arguably the greatest player in the world at basketball...
and rewriting the rules of the game regarding perimeter shooting...
and leading my team to unprecedented success...
and my freaking pre-game warm ups were must-see events that attracted fans to the stadium...

Then I doubt "smug" would be the word you would use for the gigantic ego that would be on display.

-Jason "personally, I credit Seth for not being a total !@%! to the entire planet! It is his world, we are just living in it ;) " Evans

[Indoor66]

I sympathize with the HWNSNBM thought a bit, but most people don't even know he's on the team. This is Steph Curry's team. Then you think Thompson, Green. He might be #4. Vs. Jordan's team. I'll take Golden State.

I don't get the dislike of Curry. Sure he shimmies a bit after a shot, but you have to go pretty deep to find non-posers after a shot, non-TD dancers, not-bat flippers, etc. I'm old school (Chuck Noll famously said of TDs "Act like you've been there before"), but that's the game(s) today.

HWNSNBM could be replace by about 10 other forwards and it would make no difference. He is a near zero on this team.

As to Steph, I think he is a refreshing player in the league. He is the future. He is likable and talented. The new mold. I hope GS wins the west and loses to Justise and the Heat.

[GGLC]

HWNSNBM could be replace by about 10 other forwards and it would make no difference. He is a near zero on this team.

As to Steph, I think he is a refreshing player in the league. He is the future. He is likable and talented. The new mold. I hope GS wins the west and loses to Justise and the Heat.

Nah, this is Portland's year. Rip City, baby!

[brevity]

Jordan, Schmordan. Records are made to be broken. Today, go Warriors, and when Old Man Brandon Ingram and the 2035-2036 Philadelphia 76ers go for 76 wins, go Sixers.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Steph Curry show tonight is pretty fun...

Kid ought to be illegal.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Warriors set the wins record, and Steph ups last year's record number of 3's from 286 to just north of 400.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the playoffs.

Congrats Dubs, on #73, and please - MJ and Scottie, STFU.

[luburch]

73! That amount of wins alone is absolutely insane. Now go win the title so everyone can quit hearing about that Bulls team.

[slower]

MJ and Scottie, STFU.
Never gonna happen. And most Hole fans will tell you nobody could beat that team. But anything that removes Jordan from the record book, one record at a time, is fine with me.

[jv001]

it's not what he does after an incredible shot...it's how he handles being called for a foul, or turning the ball over , or NOT getting a foul called, or missing an easy bucket...the arrogance of all he does that's amazing, won't let him be humble enough to EVER think he may have NOT done something amazing. He's NEVER committed a foul...EVER....the way he shakes his head at ANYTHING negative says "no, there's no way".

and the mouthpiece just bugs me....i don't know why...it just really bugs me...

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but did you see Michael Jordan play? He was far worse than Steph. He never committed a foul in his own eyes. While in reality, the refs let him get away with murder on defense. Plus he was the worse player ever in pushing off the defender to get his shot off. He's one of the reasons I quit watching many NBA games. The Bulls were a great team but I enjoy watching this Warriors team way more than the Jordan cry-baby teams. GoDuke!

[El_Diablo]

It's not letting me vote....

[moonpie23]

congratulations to almost all of the GSW's for thisr historic win......another chip at jordan's legacy is fine with me...


congrats especially to Steve Kerr and Luke Walton...

[fraggler]

Man, I had no idea people hated on Jordan so much here. I know he was a Tarheel, but dude was fierce. A competitor of the highest order. I had to respect that. With Kobe's swan song, and Timmy's probable last run(s), I shed a tear as we see the exit of the last great competitors. While basketball for the most part is played at a higher level of skill and sophistication now, I don't like this softer, friendlier, popularity contest NBA. I definitely don't long for the slugfest of the mid-90's, but I'd love to see the return of more grown up competitors. I see a little too much neediness in the way guys play and celebrate now. But whatever, records are meant to be broken, and it took a lot of focus and high level basketball to get to 73. And yeah, the Warriors will have to win the title for 73 to actually matter in the grand scheme.

[gurufrisbee]

Super happy to see the Warriors get the record. Frankly winning 62 games in today's league is as impressive as winning 72 was back in 95-96, but now there is no debate. The record is theirs. Way to go.

[MCFinARL]

It's not letting me vote...

Um, yeah, Vegas usually won't let you bet after the game is over either. ;)

[AnotherNYCDukeFan]

Wow none of that made sense. He might be the most humble guy in the league. You are hating a guy for having fun it sounds like. Kind of like the Cam Newton haters, doesn't really do anything wrong other than have fun.

Why do peoplease hate on the mouth guard to btw? I never notice it. It's harmless and no different than any other odd quirks of a pro athlete

I guess I'm among the irrational haters, but the mouth guard thing is pretty gross. What would you think if some one constant spit on their hands and then touched the ball that you were playing with. Really not much difference from what he does.

[luburch]

I guess I'm among the irrational haters, but the mouth guard thing is pretty gross. What would you think if some one constant spit on their hands and then touched the ball that you were playing with. Really not much difference from what he does.

That happens all the time anyway. Players spit on their hands and wipe their shoes all the time. Your playing defense against players pouring out sweat. I assume this is the least of their worries.

[elvis14]

Just went back and looked at the poll results. I voted for "67 to 72" and man am I glad I'm wrong. Add me to the list of guys that like it when any Jordan record is erased. I'm not a 'hater' in as much as I loved watching him play when he was young and did incredible things on the court. Now, after figuring out what kind of guy he is, after watching years of the 'Jordan Rules' and after my dislike of all things UNCheat has grown, I look back at Jordan's career with a different attitude and I'm glad when any record of his is eclipsed.

Saw an interesting fact on Facebook last night....Steph Curry has made more 3 pointers in the last 2 years than Jordan did in his career and more than Bird made in his career. Wow.

There was a point in the first half last night when Curry made 3 3's in about 1 minute 5 seconds. Incredible. Game went from 16-18 to 16-27 just like that.

[GGLC]

Man, I had no idea people hated on Jordan so much here. I know he was a Tarheel, but dude was fierce. A competitor of the highest order. I had to respect that. With Kobe's swan song, and Timmy's probable last run(s), I shed a tear as we see the exit of the last great competitors. While basketball for the most part is played at a higher level of skill and sophistication now, I don't like this softer, friendlier, popularity contest NBA. I definitely don't long for the slugfest of the mid-90's, but I'd love to see the return of more grown up competitors. I see a little too much neediness in the way guys play and celebrate now. But whatever, records are meant to be broken, and it took a lot of focus and high level basketball to get to 73. And yeah, the Warriors will have to win the title for 73 to actually matter in the grand scheme.

It's not just that he's a Tar Heel. He is, by all accounts, a terrible human being.

And I think you're looking at things with past-colored glasses if you think that there are no more "great competitors" in the NBA. This is a golden age. What does "a little too much neediness" even mean?

[alteran]

Man, I had no idea people hated on Jordan so much here. I know he was a Tarheel, but dude was fierce. A competitor of the highest order. I had to respect that. With Kobe's swan song, and Timmy's probable last run(s), I shed a tear as we see the exit of the last great competitors. While basketball for the most part is played at a higher level of skill and sophistication now, I don't like this softer, friendlier, popularity contest NBA. I definitely don't long for the slugfest of the mid-90's, but I'd love to see the return of more grown up competitors. I see a little too much neediness in the way guys play and celebrate now. But whatever, records are meant to be broken, and it took a lot of focus and high level basketball to get to 73. And yeah, the Warriors will have to win the title for 73 to actually matter in the grand scheme.

I think it just took the pendulum a long time to swing back. 15 years ago it was still complete, unabashed, over-the-top Jordan worship. Space Jam-- I rest my case. That kind of thing usually creates a backlash.

Jordan hasn't helped things with his mistresses, gambling, and arrogant, hapless mismanagement of the Charlotte Hornets. Obviously, all of that has nothing to do with him as a player, but it tints the memories.

Those Chicago teams were actually fun to watch, although I rooted for Detroit (because during my lifetime Detroit really needs all the love it can get). Both teams were a refreshing change from the Celtics and Lakers taking everything.

He was a great player back in the day, no doubt, arguably the greatest. But man, over the years he really has become a tool.

[slower]

Man, I had no idea people hated on Jordan so much here. I know he was a Tarheel, but dude was fierce. A competitor of the highest order.

Why in the world would anybody be surprised by Jordan-hate here? He's more toward the megalomaniac end of the spectrum than " competitor of the highest order." Dude was a flat-out bully and a hugely overrated human being. Totally about and out for himself and himself only.

[fraggler]

I think it just took the pendulum a long time to swing back. 15 years ago it was still complete, unabashed, over-the-top Jordan worship. Space Jam-- I rest my case. That kind of thing usually creates a backlash.

Jordan hasn't helped things with his mistresses, gambling, and arrogant, hapless mismanagement of the Charlotte Hornets. Obviously, all of that has nothing to do with him as a player, but it tints the memories.

Those Chicago teams were actually fun to watch, although I rooted for Detroit (because during my lifetime Detroit really needs all the love it can get). Both teams were a refreshing change from the Celtics and Lakers taking everything.

He was a great player back in the day, no doubt, arguably the greatest. But man, over the years he really has become a tool.

Certainly he is a very flawed human being, but as a basketball player he was incredible. I thought since the whole thread is about basketball achievement, there would be a little more respect shown to him as a player.

[fraggler]

Why in the world would anybody be surprised by Jordan-hate here? He's more toward the megalomaniac end of the spectrum than " competitor of the highest order." Dude was a flat-out bully and a hugely overrated human being. Totally about and out for himself and himself only.

Wow. You REALLY don't like Jordan.

I find it slightly ironic that you started the Kobe thread since he modeled his entire basketball persona after Jordan - including the megalomania and bully bits.

[slower]

Wow. You REALLY don't like Jordan.

I find it slightly ironic that you started the Kobe thread since he modeled his entire basketball persona after Jordan - including the megalomania and bully bits.
Haha - yep. Irony is my specialty.

[gurufrisbee]

It's not just that he's a Tar Heel. He is, by all accounts, a terrible human being.


YES!!!

[moonpie23]

It's not just that he's a Tar Heel. He is, by all accounts, a terrible human being.



well, so is jordan....

[slower]

well, so is jordan...

He's talking about Jordan, not Kobe.

[moonpie23]

He's talking about Jordan, not Kobe.

Kobe is not. nor ever was, a tarhole.........
you've lost your ability to smell sarcasm...it was sposed to be referencing HWMFNSNBM

[GGLC]

YES!!!

Finally something we can agree on.

[slower]

Kobe is not. nor ever was, a Tar Heel.....
you've lost your ability to smell sarcasm...it was sposed to be referencing HWMFNSNBM

Hmm. Well, neither GGLC nor I mentioned Barnes in any form, so...bygones.

[moonpie23]

Hmm. Well, neither GGLC nor I mentioned Barnes in any form, so...bygones.

right......i didn't see WHAT the post was, i just landed on the post that said, "not just that he's a Tar Heel. He is, by all accounts, a terrible human being." and IMMEDIATELY attributed it to HWMFNSNBM.....

i then ADDED jordan..



nevermind...

[NSDukeFan]

Just went back and looked at the poll results. I voted for "67 to 72" and man am I glad I'm wrong. Add me to the list of guys that like it when any Jordan record is erased. I'm not a 'hater' in as much as I loved watching him play when he was young and did incredible things on the court. Now, after figuring out what kind of guy he is, after watching years of the 'Jordan Rules' and after my dislike of all things UNCheat has grown, I look back at Jordan's career with a different attitude and I'm glad when any record of his is eclipsed.

Saw an interesting fact on Facebook last night...Steph Curry has made more 3 pointers in the last 2 years than Jordan did in his career and more than Bird made in his career. Wow.

There was a point in the first half last night when Curry made 3 3's in about 1 minute 5 seconds. Incredible. Game went from 16-18 to 16-27 just like that.

More threes in two years than Larry Legend in his career? What a crazy stat!

[PackMan97]

I neglected to vote early, but yes, I think Golden State will break the all time record and win over 72 games this season!

[El_Diablo]

right...i didn't see WHAT the post was, i just landed on the post that said, "not just that he's a Tar Heel. He is, by all accounts, a terrible human being." and IMMEDIATELY attributed it to HWMFNSNBM....

i then ADDED jordan..



nevermind...

To be fair, moonpie was responding to a post that was responding to a post about "needy" players. I can think of very few players who are more needy than a person who got ragged on by the Daily Tar Heel for Googling himself in class and who called up Jeff Goodman out of the blue mid-season to ask whether he still had a chance to be named the National Player of the Year. That person, in each instance, is Harrison Barnes.

[JasonEvans]

He's talking about Jordan, not Kobe.

Not sure where to put this, so I figured this was a good place for it (seeing as this thread is about Jordan and Kobe lately).

After Kobe's incredible show in his final game -- 60 points on 50 shots in a win -- I decided to look back on His Royal Airness' final game (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/scores103/103106/20030416NBA--PHILADELPH0.htm).

As we all know, it was in a Wizards jersey. That's just wrong... but it is how Jordan chose to go out. Well, I suppose it is how Jerry Krause chose for Jordan to go out, but it is still wrong.
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nba/_photos/2003-04-16-inside-mj-last.jpg

Jordan scored 15 points on 6-15 shooting. He had 4 rebounds and 4 assists and he played 28 minutes of the game. Washington lost in a blow out, 107-87, to a good but not great Philadelphia team. The story of the game was AI scoring 35 points (I guess it wasn't practice). By the way, Jordan was not the leading scorer for Washington in that game. Kwame Brown led the Sixers with 17 points (it was probably one of the best games of his career, ha!).

-Jason "I prefer the way Kobe called it a career... by a mile!" Evans

[Wander]

One tangential result of Golden State's dominance is that to me, it has eliminated Lebron from contention as best player of all time. I was one of those people who thought he had a decent chance to challenge Jordan and Kareem for that honor, but unless he can pull off the upset and win the Finals this year, that is over. He's obviously still an all-time player, but has been too overshadowed now, and will be in the top 10 but not top 5 all time players.

[JasonEvans]

One tangential result of Golden State's dominance is that to me, it has eliminated Lebron from contention as best player of all time. I was one of those people who thought he had a decent chance to challenge Jordan and Kareem for that honor, but unless he can pull off the upset and win the Finals this year, that is over. He's obviously still an all-time player, but has been too overshadowed now, and will be in the top 10 but not top 5 all time players.

So, I'm just wondering what others say... what is the threshhold in terms of number of titles to even be in the GOAT conversation? It has got to be at least 3, probably 4, right? Among guys who could be in the conversation (not counting role players like Robert Horry or everyone who played on the Celtics in the 60s), here are the guys with the most titles:

Russell - 11
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Cousey - 6
Kobe - 5
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Shaq - 4

-Jason "so, Lebron really needs at least 1 and probably 2 more to even be in the conversation, IMO -- right now, I'd clearly have him behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and probably Kobe" Evans

[luburch]

So, I'm just wondering what others say... what is the threshhold in terms of number of titles to even be in the GOAT conversation? It has got to be at least 3, probably 4, right? Among guys who could be in the conversation (not counting role players like Robert Horry or everyone who played on the Celtics in the 60s), here are the guys with the most titles:

Russell - 11
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Cousey - 6
Kobe - 5
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Shaq - 4

-Jason "so, Lebron really needs at least 1 and probably 2 more to even be in the conversation, IMO -- right now, I'd clearly have him behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and probably Kobe" Evans

This is where it gets really tricky. I believe, and I've heard the sentiment elsewhere as well, that LeBron is an overall better basketball player than Kobe, but Kobe has had the better career.

I think 3 titles puts you in the conversation, 4 titles eliminates any doubt. Hopefully we'll see LeBron get another ring or two.

[phaedrus]

So, I'm just wondering what others say... what is the threshhold in terms of number of titles to even be in the GOAT conversation? It has got to be at least 3, probably 4, right? Among guys who could be in the conversation (not counting role players like Robert Horry or everyone who played on the Celtics in the 60s), here are the guys with the most titles:

Russell - 11
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Cousey - 6
Kobe - 5
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Shaq - 4

-Jason "so, Lebron really needs at least 1 and probably 2 more to even be in the conversation, IMO -- right now, I'd clearly have him behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and probably Kobe" Evans


If the player is Lebron, the threshold is 2 (or however many titles he ends up with).

Your list - as I'm sure you're aware - leaves off 2-time champion Wilt Chamberlain and 3-time champion Larry Bird, who are always in the GOAT conversation. So it is with Lebron.

[Edouble]

So, I'm just wondering what others say... what is the threshhold in terms of number of titles to even be in the GOAT conversation? It has got to be at least 3, probably 4, right? Among guys who could be in the conversation (not counting role players like Robert Horry or everyone who played on the Celtics in the 60s), here are the guys with the most titles:

Russell - 11
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Cousey - 6
Kobe - 5
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Shaq - 4

-Jason "so, Lebron really needs at least 1 and probably 2 more to even be in the conversation, IMO -- right now, I'd clearly have him behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and probably Kobe" Evans

I'd say three not four. Larry has to make the list if Pippen, Duncan, and Shaq are on there.

[fraggler]

I think if he wins one with Cleveland, especially with how strong the Warriors and the Spurs (and dark horse Thunder) are, he solidifies himself into top 5 all time. Hard to argue against his overall talent and physical profile as one of if not the best player ever. Even with "only" 2 titles, he has had a pretty damn good career - he is shooting for 6 straight Finals trips afterall. I think he just needs that last trophy to cement it. I don't particularly like him, but damn if he hasn't been amazing to watch.

[Wander]

So, I'm just wondering what others say... what is the threshhold in terms of number of titles to even be in the GOAT conversation? It has got to be at least 3, probably 4, right? Among guys who could be in the conversation (not counting role players like Robert Horry or everyone who played on the Celtics in the 60s), here are the guys with the most titles:

Russell - 11
Kareem - 6
Jordan - 6
Pippen - 6
Cousey - 6
Kobe - 5
Magic - 5
Duncan - 5
Shaq - 4

-Jason "so, Lebron really needs at least 1 and probably 2 more to even be in the conversation, IMO -- right now, I'd clearly have him behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and probably Kobe" Evans

I don't want to necessarily say that in general a player has to win X titles to be in the conversation since the quality of teammates and opponents can vary wildly. In fact, Lebron's most impressive accomplishment to me is not any of his championships or MVPs, but getting Cleveland to the Finals in 2007. However, for Lebron specifically... he's currently in year 6 of having at least 2 really good teammates. So yes, I would agree with your estimate he needs to end his career with 4 titles to be in the conversation for greatest of all time. I don't think you can argue for him with 2 titles and 4 MVPs over Kareem's 6 titles and 6 MVPs and Jordan's 6 titles and 5 MVPs.