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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 82, Buffalo 59 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
12-05-2015, 07:35 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Bob Green
12-05-2015, 07:48 PM
It certainly wasn't pretty, but it looks fine in the record books. Give credit to Buffalo, they played hard from start to finish!

MChambers
12-05-2015, 08:01 PM
Only Ingram and Allen were effective scorers. Rest of the team really struggled.

Saratoga2
12-05-2015, 08:01 PM
Brandon continued to impress on both sides of the ball. Very smooth offensively and a very effective defender. He seems to have picked up his intensity.

Amile also had an excellent game. He got his points around the rim and they seemed toim have feeding him in the game plan. Another very good rebounding and defensive effort as well.

Grayson works so hard out there and he did get 22 points and 11 rebounds. He's our Charlie Hustle out there. His touch seemed to be off tonight, perhaps because he was playing against a quicker team tonight.

The three combined provided 58 of our points so others were quiet tonight, although Matt played well and Luke and Derryck did decently. Our team was having trouble stopping the slashing drive inside.

I though Marshall was slow to react and was not all that effective against their quick lineup. We need his size against the bigger teams but he tends to be a liability against the small quick teams. Chase was turnover prone, so he is not really ready to provide meaningful backup minutes as yet. It will be interesting to see the +/- relationships from this game.

Furniture
12-05-2015, 08:07 PM
Missed the game tonight, was on a flight to Chicago. Now sitting here in a bar looking forward to read all about it. Looks like Brandon lived up to expectations!!

Tripping William
12-05-2015, 08:25 PM
Second half much better than the first. 48 second-half points, after 34 in the first half, was quite a difference.

jipops
12-05-2015, 09:31 PM
Ball movement was pretty bad until about 5 minutes into the 2nd half. But this is to be expected sometimes with no pg on the floor.

Can't make any complaints about the defense.

Over the course of the past month the college game seems to have gotten a little bit easier for Ingram. He's bringing it on both ends of the floor lately.

uh_no
12-05-2015, 10:25 PM
Ball movement was pretty bad until about 5 minutes into the 2nd half. But this is to be expected sometimes with no pg on the floor.

Can't make any complaints about the defense.

Over the course of the past month the college game seems to have gotten a little bit easier for Ingram. He's bringing it on both ends of the floor lately.

Only two disagreements here, as I thought overall the defense was alright.

1) matt got abused much of the game. it was not pretty.
2) we rotated pretty well to help, but after 3 or so rotations, we'd end up falling apart with the defense on one side of the floor...leaving a far side guy wide open, either to shoot or get in close. It's an indication that we're at least successfully rotating to some degree...something that was sorely lacking

the team is getting better.

53n206
12-05-2015, 10:52 PM
Forget the gambling--does Grayson remind you of Pete Rose? I know, this comparison is not understood by many. Sorry for that.

kAzE
12-05-2015, 11:24 PM
Only Ingram and Allen were effective scorers. Rest of the team really struggled.

I kind of disagree. I honestly didn't think we played that poorly on offense at all, we just had some open shots that didn't fall. Ball movement might not have been great, but we haven't been a great passing team this entire year. We're a team that relies more on a few great scorers to get the job done offensively rather than dynamic ball movement, although we could be even better once the ball movement improves. We also managed to score 82 points despite very tough interior defense from start to finish. They were extremely physical, causing our shooting percentage to slide a bit, but that same physicality put us on the foul line 36 times. Credit our guys for continuing to take it hard in the paint. I'm sure our points per possession wasn't too shabby at all.

Only Luke and Matt had off shooting nights. Contrary to your statement, I thought Thornton and Jefferson played great on offense . . . they were a combined 7/10 from the field and 7/8 from the foul line. Derryck also had his best game as a distributor with 5 assist to 0 turnovers. They kept flashing the Allen/Ingram graphic, but really, Brandon was carrying the efficiency between the two. Grayson just got to the foul line, like he always does.

Overall, I thought it was a really good win. We grinded out a tough battle. Sometime the other team is not going to let you run and gun. It's great to know that we can win in many different ways if necessary.

Billy Dat
12-06-2015, 01:15 AM
Brandon continued to impress on both sides of the ball. Very smooth offensively and a very effective defender. He seems to have picked up his intensity.

Missed the game tonight, was on a flight to Chicago. Now sitting here in a bar looking forward to read all about it. Looks like Brandon lived up to expectations!!

Over the course of the past month the college game seems to have gotten a little bit easier for Ingram. He's bringing it on both ends of the floor lately.

Ingram was AWESOME. He continued his play from the Indiana game at an even higher level because his offense was as dialed in but his defense jumped a few notches. Something really clicked these past two games, and it started little by little with Yale after the NYC trip. On offense, he is aggressive but smart. He is taking good 3s in rhythm and hitting them, he is attacking off the dribble and showing both a really nifty mid range floater and a lethal spin move - both of which are generally unblockable once he gets some space. On defense tonight, he was keeping his man in front of him while leveraging his reach and height advantage by giving plenty of cushion knowing that he can close quickly from a greater distance. The result is not fouling while tracking to the rim and blocking shots! He still picks up fouls because guys attack him on the dribble, but he's getting better and better and I think opponents will stop trying so much the more he blocks their shots. I was killing his defense 5-6 games ago because he looked disinterested and clueless. Now, he looks like he could become a key defensive force. I can't get over his recent maturation and am extremely excited about it.


Amile also had an excellent game. He got his points around the rim and they seemed toim have feeding him in the game plan. Another very good rebounding and defensive effort as well.
Grayson works so hard out there and he did get 22 points and 11 rebounds. He's our Charlie Hustle out there. His touch seemed to be off tonight, perhaps because he was playing against a quicker team tonight.
The three combined provided 58 of our points so others were quiet tonight, although Matt played well and Luke and Derryck did decently. Our team was having trouble stopping the slashing drive inside.
I though Marshall was slow to react and was not all that effective against their quick lineup. We need his size against the bigger teams but he tends to be a liability against the small quick teams. Chase was turnover prone, so he is not really ready to provide meaningful backup minutes as yet. It will be interesting to see the +/- relationships from this game.

Amile was really really good. He kick started the decisive run in the second half with several really nice baskets around the hoop. He is increasingly directing traffic on offense, pointing where guys should go and then setting perfect screens. Watch the way he screens vs the way Jeter screens and you see the difference between a freshman and a senior. He is starting to give us some inside offense via his expanding array of post moves, which is important to balance the floor. He is so tough and smart. I feel like he is the kind of senior Quinn Cook was, maybe not as ultimately decorated with All American and Conference honors but a senior leader whose production is as vital as his communication.

Corey Alexander pointed out Grayson's ability to get to the line as a hallmark of his efficiency, and I have seen additional growth in his offensive repertoire. He is trying to mix up his drives - mixing some going left with his going right, he is really looking to playmake, he continues to shoot well and he rebounds hard and just plays hard.


I kind of disagree. I honestly didn't think we played that poorly on offense at all, we just had some open shots that didn't fall. Ball movement might not have been great, but we haven't been a great passing team this entire year. We're a team that relies more on a few great scorers to get the job done offensively rather than dynamic ball movement, although we could be even better once the ball movement improves. We also managed to score 82 points despite very tough interior defense from start to finish. They were extremely physical, causing our shooting percentage to slide a bit, but that same physicality put us on the foul line 36 times. Credit our guys for continuing to take it hard in the paint. I'm sure our points per possession wasn't too shabby at all.

Only Luke and Matt had off shooting nights. Contrary to your statement, I thought Thornton and Jefferson played great on offense . . . they were a combined 7/10 from the field and 7/8 from the foul line. Derryck also had his best game as a distributor with 5 assist to 0 turnovers. They kept flashing the Allen/Ingram graphic, but really, Brandon was carrying the efficiency between the two. Grayson just got to the foul line, like he always does.

Overall, I thought it was a really good win. We grinded out a tough battle. Sometime the other team is not going to let you run and gun. It's great to know that we can win in many different ways if necessary.

I think you make a lot of good points here. You can tell that the coaches are still tinkering with the offense because these guys keep changing. Ingram at this level of aggressiveness and production demands touches, Grayson needs touches. Amile and Matt can keep the defense honest if they are ignored. Derryck and Luke have both proven to be dangerous from 3, on the drive, and from midrange if not yet consistent. What I notice is that all of our perimeter guys are getting better at catching and being on the attack - almost in a dribble-drive fashion. They are starting to get that ball movement followed by decisive attack forces the defense to adjust and opens up driving lanes and passing lanes and they are getting smarter about moving for those passes and knowing where the other guys will be. We still are playing a lot of different line-ups. Aside from the starters, we had a few times where it was either Amile, Matt or Grayson and all the freshmen.
It's really fun to watch.

Buffalo was a legit, unscared opponent who really went at us hard, they just couldn't shoot! That kid Massinburg was tough. We didn't show much zone and we've seen less of it the past few games. I was blinded to the rest by Ingram's rebirth on that end. 4 blocks and 2 steals!

These guys play hard and seem to be having fun out there while they figure it out. Our top 7 are getting better and I hope Chase can show growth before the conference season to add depth up front and overall. I will miss watching them these next 10 days.

Indoor66
12-06-2015, 07:26 AM
Ingram was AWESOME. He continued his play from the Indiana game at an even higher level because his offense was as dialed in but his defense jumped a few notches. Something really clicked these past two games, and it started little by little with Yale after the NYC trip. On offense, he is aggressive but smart. He is taking good 3s in rhythm and hitting them, he is attacking off the dribble and showing both a really nifty mid range floater and a lethal spin move - both of which are generally unblockable once he gets some space. On defense tonight, he was keeping his man in front of him while leveraging his reach and height advantage by giving plenty of cushion knowing that he can close quickly from a greater distance. The result is not fouling while tracking to the rim and blocking shots! He still picks up fouls because guys attack him on the dribble, but he's getting better and better and I think opponents will stop trying so much the more he blocks their shots. I was killing his defense 5-6 games ago because he looked disinterested and clueless. Now, he looks like he could become a key defensive force. I can't get over his recent maturation and am extremely excited about it.



Amile was really really good. He kick started the decisive run in the second half with several really nice baskets around the hoop. He is increasingly directing traffic on offense, pointing where guys should go and then setting perfect screens. Watch the way he screens vs the way Jeter screens and you see the difference between a freshman and a senior. He is starting to give us some inside offense via his expanding array of post moves, which is important to balance the floor. He is so tough and smart. I feel like he is the kind of senior Quinn Cook was, maybe not as ultimately decorated with All American and Conference honors but a senior leader whose production is as vital as his communication.

Corey Alexander pointed out Grayson's ability to get to the line as a hallmark of his efficiency, and I have seen additional growth in his offensive repertoire. He is trying to mix up his drives - mixing some going left with his going right, he is really looking to playmake, he continues to shoot well and he rebounds hard and just plays hard.



I think you make a lot of good points here. You can tell that the coaches are still tinkering with the offense because these guys keep changing. Ingram at this level of aggressiveness and production demands touches, Grayson needs touches. Amile and Matt can keep the defense honest if they are ignored. Derryck and Luke have both proven to be dangerous from 3, on the drive, and from midrange if not yet consistent. What I notice is that all of our perimeter guys are getting better at catching and being on the attack - almost in a dribble-drive fashion. They are starting to get that ball movement followed by decisive attack forces the defense to adjust and opens up driving lanes and passing lanes and they are getting smarter about moving for those passes and knowing where the other guys will be. We still are playing a lot of different line-ups. Aside from the starters, we had a few times where it was either Amile, Matt or Grayson and all the freshmen.
It's really fun to watch.

Buffalo was a legit, unscared opponent who really went at us hard, they just couldn't shoot! That kid Massinburg was tough. We didn't show much zone and we've seen less of it the past few games. I was blinded to the rest by Ingram's rebirth on that end. 4 blocks and 2 steals!

These guys play hard and seem to be having fun out there while they figure it out. Our top 7 are getting better and I hope Chase can show growth before the conference season to add depth up front and overall. I will miss watching them these next 10 days.

I agree with your observations. I think the team played very well. Buffalo is an experienced, relatively small but very quick team. They were pretty disciplined for a team from their conference. We did not get much that was easy and when you went inside you had to be very strong. The freshmen got an education in that game.

Grayson seems to have matured and is allowing the game to come to him to use the cliche. Continuing the cliches, he shows patience in his choice of when to drive and when to pass. No bull in the china shop anymore - like at KY. Ingram is having his coming out before our eyes. He seems to see the whole court now and is more efficient with his movements. He is in the right place more often. He still has a ways to go but his is moving rapidly in the right direction.

I have to quit now. I ran out of cliches. ;) :cool:

Saratoga2
12-06-2015, 08:05 AM
I agree with your observations. I think the team played very well. Buffalo is an experienced, relatively small but very quick team. They were pretty disciplined for a team from their conference. We did not get much that was easy and when you went inside you had to be very strong. The freshmen got an education in that game.

Grayson seems to have matured and is allowing the game to come to him to use the cliche. Continuing the cliches, he shows patience in his choice of when to drive and when to pass. No bull in the china shop anymore - like at KY. Ingram is having his coming out before our eyes. He seems to see the whole court now and is more efficient with his movements. He is in the right place more often. He still has a ways to go but his is moving rapidly in the right direction.

I have to quit now. I ran out of cliches. ;) :cool:

Coach K in his comments mentioned that he hoped Grayson would never make the kind of passes to the wing (that he made in the first half) again. Don't know what he was thinking but the coach didn't like it.

MP3 played 23 minutes with one rebound. A 7 footer against a small team who was not shooting well so there were many rebounds. MP3 also didn't seem to be able to do much blocking of shots. We were much better when we used Brandon and Amile on the inside as MP3 seems too slow to deal with a team like Buffalo.

Chock it up as a learning experience for Grayson, who still had a good game but in Marshal's case, it just pointed out he has very limited effectiveness against a small quick team.

Bob Green
12-06-2015, 08:16 AM
Grayson seems to have matured and is allowing the game to come to him to use the cliche. Continuing the cliches, he shows patience in his choice of when to drive and when to pass. No bull in the china shop anymore - like at KY.

I'm not sure this is the right time to use the "allowing the game to come to him" cliché. Grayson was 5-15 from the field. He was great on the boards with 11 rebounds and he shot 11-13 from the line, but it appeared to me he was pressing things from the field, which is the opposite of allowing the game to come to him. Just my two cents...

rocketeli
12-06-2015, 08:29 AM
Just want to say enjoying reading posts discussing a basketball game and a refreshing absence of people trying to "win" the thread. Let's see more of this!

Duke76
12-06-2015, 09:32 AM
Coach K in his comments mentioned that he hoped Grayson would never make the kind of passes to the wing (that he made in the first half) again. Don't know what he was thinking but the coach didn't like it.

MP3 played 23 minutes with one rebound. A 7 footer against a small team who was not shooting well so there were many rebounds. MP3 also didn't seem to be able to do much blocking of shots. We were much better when we used Brandon and Amile on the inside as MP3 seems too slow to deal with a team like Buffalo.

Chock it up as a learning experience for Grayson, who still had a good game but in Marshal's case, it just pointed out he has very limited effectiveness against a small quick team.

I think he was saying he'd rather Grayson take the shot than someone else because our odds of scoring are better with him shooting than with others. He needs to play a little more selfish early on in games for us to be successful in the long run. He passed up numerous shots early in the shot clock to see the ball passed around and a shot missed...I'd rather him take the early shot and I think Coach K would too. Everyone else will get their's but I think we will more than otherwise with Grayson scoring 30 vs. 20

hudlow
12-06-2015, 10:12 AM
Good BI highlights...

One of the best highlights, not in the video, was when he came near the end of the game. The smile on his face when he got to the bench was priceless.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/duke-basketballs-brandon-ingrams-best-013718959.html

kAzE
12-06-2015, 10:25 AM
Good BI highlights...

One of the best highlights, not in the video, was when he came near the end of the game. The smile on his face when he got to the bench was priceless.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/duke-basketballs-brandon-ingrams-best-013718959.html

Brandon is the only guy on the team that could have made some of of those plays. It's just insane how skilled and coordinated he is with those ridiculously long limbs. His potential is sky high. If he was wearing burnt orange and you squinted a little bit, I bet he coulda fooled you into thinking you were watching a freshman Kevin Durant.

If Ben Simmons is baby LeBron, Brandon Ingram is baby KD.

azzefkram
12-06-2015, 10:33 AM
Brandon had a real solid game. He's a bit of a work in progress with his man defense but he's a menace on the top of the 1-3-1 and a fairly good weak side shot blocker. It was great to see Grayson grab 11 boards but this was easily his worst game since the Kentucky game. He forced at least half a dozen shots and that's not counting the one's where he was bailed out by a foul. Matt had an off shooting night. Thornton had a solid game on both sides of the ball. I am starting to think Luke pissed off a gypsy. I don't think I've ever seen so many of a player's shots go halfway down then pop out. Marshall did Marshall things. I would like to see him grab some more boards but our porous perimeter D is a bit of a factor in that. I like seeing Amile assertive on the offensive end.

Overall it was a good win to head in to the break with.

Olympic Fan
12-06-2015, 11:41 AM
I think he was saying he'd rather Grayson take the shot than someone else because our odds of scoring are better with him shooting than with others. He needs to play a little more selfish early on in games for us to be successful in the long run. He passed up numerous shots early in the shot clock to see the ball passed around and a shot missed...I'd rather him take the early shot and I think Coach K would too. Everyone else will get their's but I think we will more than otherwise with Grayson scoring 30 vs. 20

It's a tough tightrope for Grayson to walk. Last week, there was a game when K praised Grayson for helping get Luke started when he was struggling.

Against Buffalo, there were times when he made bad passes, trying to get the ball to Amile or Marshall when they were struggling. And while Amile was terrific in the second half, he did struggle in the first half.

One play I remember was early in the second half. Grayson drove and seemed to have a clear path to the basket. But he dumped the ball to Marshall, who was actually outside him. Marshall went to the basket and drew a foul, but I'd much rather have seen Grayson take the shot (or go to the foul line).

I like the idea that Grayson wants to set up his teammates. But he does have to realize that he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. Striking the right balance between scoring and playmaking is one of the many works-in-progress for this team.

duke74
12-06-2015, 11:53 AM
I like the idea that Grayson wants to set up his teammates. But he does have to realize that he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. Striking the right balance between scoring and playmaking is one of the many works-in-progress for this team.

Boy, how many times have we heard the exact reverse statement about other PGs (not a Duke-specific comment)? Too unselfish is a good problem and more easily cured, I think.

COYS
12-06-2015, 12:06 PM
It's a tough tightrope for Grayson to walk. Last week, there was a game when K praised Grayson for helping get Luke started when he was struggling.

Against Buffalo, there were times when he made bad passes, trying to get the ball to Amile or Marshall when they were struggling. And while Amile was terrific in the second half, he did struggle in the first half.

One play I remember was early in the second half. Grayson drove and seemed to have a clear path to the basket. But he dumped the ball to Marshall, who was actually outside him. Marshall went to the basket and drew a foul, but I'd much rather have seen Grayson take the shot (or go to the foul line).

I like the idea that Grayson wants to set up his teammates. But he does have to realize that he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. Striking the right balance between scoring and playmaking is one of the many works-in-progress for this team.

What's so encouraging to me about Grayson, though, is that even in a game when he struggled with his decision-making a bit and didn't shoot quite as well from the field, He STILL managed 22 points on 15 shots. He is such a threat driving, shooting, and from the line that even if he is off a bit in any of those categories, he can still hurt you from another. His finishing and decision making were a little off, but he still got to the line and put a lot of pressure on the Buffalo defense by racking up fouls.

As for Ingram, he has made steady progress since NYC. The staff is getting him the ball in better positions and he is attacking with confidence. He's such a unique player, shots that would be bad shots for some are great shots for him. He can get to the rim with his go go gadget arms when other guys would be caught in midair with nowhere to go. The guy is really talented and skilled and it is fun to watch him put it all together.

Derryck had a quietly solid game, too. He played some of his best defense. His on the ball D is usually good, but he fought through screens, rotated, and played off the ball better, too. Not perfect but much better. On offense, he played much more under control. He wasn't asked to be the primary creator when he was in as we played a lot more motion when he was at the point. That seemed to simplify the game for him. No turnovers. A few extra assists. Only one Ill-advised two point jump shot (that he made, thankfully). It was a baby step, but much like Brandon's gradual improvement since NYC, I hope we look back and see this game as Derryck's first on the climb back up to top form.

sagegrouse
12-06-2015, 12:35 PM
What's so encouraging to me about Grayson, though, is that even in a game when he struggled with his decision-making a bit and didn't shoot quite as well from the field, He STILL managed 22 points on 15 shots. He is such a threat driving, shooting, and from the line that even if he is off a bit in any of those categories, he can still hurt you from another. His finishing and decision making were a little off, but he still got to the line and put a lot of pressure on the Buffalo defense by racking up fouls.

I was impressed with his rebounding. Grayson had a "gimme-that-ball" mentality and the muscle to back it up.

Saratoga2
12-06-2015, 01:01 PM
I think he was saying he'd rather Grayson take the shot than someone else because our odds of scoring are better with him shooting than with others. He needs to play a little more selfish early on in games for us to be successful in the long run. He passed up numerous shots early in the shot clock to see the ball passed around and a shot missed...I'd rather him take the early shot and I think Coach K would too. Everyone else will get their's but I think we will more than otherwise with Grayson scoring 30 vs. 20 That is not exactly the feeling I got when watching coach K do the conference. I just felt he thought Grayson put himself into a position where he was a little out of control and chose to whip the ball to the corner even though there was no pass to make. I think he didn't necessarily want Grayson in a position where he either had to take a very tough shot or make a blind pass. No doubt he has gone over his thoughts with Grayson and we will see a more under control approach in the future.

Olympic Fan
12-06-2015, 01:36 PM
What's so encouraging to me about Grayson, though, is that even in a game when he struggled with his decision-making a bit and didn't shoot quite as well from the field, He STILL managed 22 points on 15 shots.

Good point ..;. and you reminded me of something from Saturday. I was watching NC State struggle with Bucknell and one of the Bucknell kids was on fire from 3. Mike Gminski (love to hear the Gman do a game) noted that the kid had 28 points on 15 shots and said, "I don't think I've ever seen that."

It made me think of Grayson's game with Georgetown -- 32 points on 12 shots!

For the season, he's got 196 points on 120 field goal attempts. That's an awfully good scoring ratio.

uh_no
12-06-2015, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure this is the right time to use the "allowing the game to come to him" cliché. Grayson was 5-15 from the field. He was great on the boards with 11 rebounds and he shot 11-13 from the line, but it appeared to me he was pressing things from the field, which is the opposite of allowing the game to come to him. Just my two cents...

I agree.

I think to some degree it was in response to how the game was going...slow, slugfest, not much going on...and he was trying to hard to make something happen. That's okay. IT's probably the first game in his Duke career that he's been tasked with being a main offensive piece in that sort of game. He didn't react terribly, but he also didn't react perfectly.

I'm sure it's something they'll work on and he'll be more prepared next time we run into this kind of situation..

We have to remember that despite the fact that grayson seems like a veteran on this team, he really didn't contribute much for most of last season, and certainly not to a degree that he would be tasked with helping control the pace of the game (well...except for once...that game was pretty important!). So it's the first time he's going through a lot of these things. He had a negative reaction to the D UK was playing, and has bounced back excellently. He might not have made some bad decisions, but he'll bounce back from it too!

Kid's a stud

Duke76
12-06-2015, 04:36 PM
That is not exactly the feeling I got when watching coach K do the conference. I just felt he thought Grayson put himself into a position where he was a little out of control and chose to whip the ball to the corner even though there was no pass to make. I think he didn't necessarily want Grayson in a position where he either had to take a very tough shot or make a blind pass. No doubt he has gone over his thoughts with Grayson and we will see a more under control approach in the future.

he went to the drive too much which can sometimes create the off balance look or he passed up the open jumper too much early on. he has had some all world games where he is hitting that little inside the lane floater...I love to see that from all the guys, its is so effective most of the time...nolan smith was great at it

don't get me wrong he has exceed my expectations and they were already pretty high...

Duke76
12-06-2015, 04:40 PM
Good point ..;. and you reminded me of something from Saturday. I was watching NC State struggle with Bucknell and one of the Bucknell kids was on fire from 3. Mike Gminski (love to hear the Gman do a game) noted that the kid had 28 points on 15 shots and said, "I don't think I've ever seen that."

It made me think of Grayson's game with Georgetown -- 32 points on 12 shots!

For the season, he's got 196 points on 120 field goal attempts. That's an awfully good scoring ratio.

that was my point about not being selfish enough shooting, some guys you don't want to shoot too much, others you do....he's in the latter camp. I'd rather he err shooting too much, rather than too little

NashvilleDevil
12-06-2015, 05:15 PM
Duke wins and no one gets hurt before the break. I am a happy fan today.

whereinthehellami
12-07-2015, 10:24 AM
Allen, Ingram, Jefferson, Jones, and Plumlee are playing at the level that Duke needs them to be at, to be a top team. Health and consistency in their roles are all that are needed going forward.

Thornton and Kennard are close to being where they need to be for this year. If Kennard was a stock, I would be all in in right now. The kid is close to busting out. The break might be exactly what he needs.

Jeter still has some work ahead of him. There is still a window for him to find an important role on this team.

Indoor66
12-07-2015, 10:39 AM
Allen, Ingram, Jefferson, Jones, and Plumlee are playing at the level that Duke needs them to be at, to be a top team. Health and consistency in their roles are all that are needed going forward.

Thornton and Kennard are close to being where they need to be for this year. If Kennard was a stock, I would be all in in right now. The kid is close to busting out. The break might be exactly what he needs.

Jeter still has some work ahead of him. There is still a window for him to find an important role on this team.

A well stated summary of the present status of the team. :cool:

uh_no
12-07-2015, 11:05 AM
Allen, Ingram, Jefferson, Jones, and Plumlee are playing at the level that Duke needs them to be at, to be a top team. Health and consistency in their roles are all that are needed going forward.

Thornton and Kennard are close to being where they need to be for this year. If Kennard was a stock, I would be all in in right now. The kid is close to busting out. The break might be exactly what he needs.

Jeter still has some work ahead of him. There is still a window for him to find an important role on this team.

He still needs much improvement on perimeter defense. I'm not sure what changed since last year, when he seemed to hound guys on the perimeter...maybe the new rules? but he gets blown by regularly...buffalo abused him several times, and indiana for most of the game.

He's playing great offense, no doubt....and the whole team still has much work to do on the other side of the floor, but at times it looked ugly.

superdave
12-07-2015, 11:06 AM
Coach K in his comments mentioned that he hoped Grayson would never make the kind of passes to the wing (that he made in the first half) again. Don't know what he was thinking but the coach didn't like it.

The box score had Allen with two turnovers. I could have sworn he bailed on drives to the basket and threw errant passes to Buffalo on four occasions.

He needed to finish at the rim or draw a foul on those plays rather than trying to make a spectacular pass.

kAzE
12-07-2015, 11:22 AM
The box score had Allen with two turnovers. I could have sworn he bailed on drives to the basket and threw errant passes to Buffalo on four occasions.

He needed to finish at the rim or draw a foul on those plays rather than trying to make a spectacular pass.

Well, in those situations, he was most likely trying to avoid having his shot blocked. His aggressiveness tends to put him in situations where he is forced to make tough decisions with the ball. This is a bit of a microcosm of the entire team's ball movement so far this year. We've been a very aggressive offensive team on the dribble drive, which is actually a positive with the new rules in place. It's a great approach to have against most teams, but we will run into trouble if we don't diversify our offensive gameplan against teams with size and length. (Kentucky killed us by simply protecting the rim against dribble penetration)

I like that we are trying to give Amile opportunities to score in the low post. He's handled it very well in the early slate, but I'm not sure he will be able to score as easily against better competition. We need that option to create proper spacing and free up shooters and cutters. If Amile can keep playing well down low and begin to draw double teams, we're in business. He's proven that he is capable of finding the open man, evidenced by his recent 8 assist performance, and I think the team would benefit by playing through him more.

Olympic Fan
12-07-2015, 11:25 AM
The box score had Allen with two turnovers. I could have sworn he bailed on drives to the basket and threw errant passes to Buffalo on four occasions.


Actually, I think the two turnovers are right, but he got lucky on another 2-3 passes that were poor decisions and were deflected, but in those cases, Duke came up with the ball, so even though those were bad plays, they weren't turnovers.

Billy Dat
12-07-2015, 11:46 AM
That is not exactly the feeling I got when watching coach K do the conference. I just felt he thought Grayson put himself into a position where he was a little out of control and chose to whip the ball to the corner even though there was no pass to make. I think he didn't necessarily want Grayson in a position where he either had to take a very tough shot or make a blind pass. No doubt he has gone over his thoughts with Grayson and we will see a more under control approach in the future.

The K quotes which I think you interpreted correctly:

"We looked tired offensively in the first half. We were chaotic. Grayson, made about five drives where he was passing out, with passes that I have not seen before, and I don’t want to see them anymore either. "

sagegrouse
12-07-2015, 12:15 PM
I like that we are trying to give Amile opportunities to score in the low post. He's handled it very well in the early slate, but I'm not sure he will be able to score as easily against better competition. We need that option to create proper spacing and free up shooters and cutters. If Amile can keep playing well down low and begin to draw double teams, we're in business. He's proven that he is capable of finding the open man, evidenced by his recent 8 assist performance, and I think the team would benefit by playing through him more.

Be aggressive, Amile. I mean, this guy scored on essentially a one-on-five play under the basket against Indiana. I have no questions about Amile's ability to contribute on both ends against anyone we might play -- he did well against Kentucky, for instance.

There is an opportunity for Chase Jeter to get significant minutes if he can up his level of play. Marshall is a valuable player, but he is unlikely to contribute to the offense. I have hopes that Chase will make significant improvements by midseason.

uh_no
12-07-2015, 01:52 PM
The K quotes which I think you interpreted correctly:

"We looked tired offensively in the first half. We were chaotic. Grayson, made about five drives where he was passing out, with passes that I have not seen before, and I don’t want to see them anymore either. "

poor grayson. K doesn't want to see his face, he doesn't want to see his passes...man is hard to please :(

flyingdutchdevil
12-07-2015, 01:56 PM
poor grayson. K doesn't want to see his face, he doesn't want to see his passes...man is hard to please :(

Coach K is definitely showing Grayson some tough love, which leads me to believe a) he views Grayson as the offensive leader of this team and b) he wants Grayson to be as selfish as possible.

I would agree with these two points, as Grayson is uncharacteristically unselfish and his points-per-possession is off the radar.

Has Coach K mentioned that he doesn't want to see MP3's iso plays or Matt Jones 3pt shots off the dribble? Those also are not high-expected value shots.

uh_no
12-07-2015, 01:58 PM
Coach K is definitely showing Grayson some tough love, which leads me to believe a) he views Grayson as the offensive leader of this team and b) he wants Grayson to be as selfish as possible.


I think perhaps more importantly, he knows that grayson will work his butt off to fix the mistakes. you don't do what he's done this year and in the title game last year by not taking criticism and working your absolute <redacted> off.

CDu
12-07-2015, 03:36 PM
Good point ..;. and you reminded me of something from Saturday. I was watching NC State struggle with Bucknell and one of the Bucknell kids was on fire from 3. Mike Gminski (love to hear the Gman do a game) noted that the kid had 28 points on 15 shots and said, "I don't think I've ever seen that."

It made me think of Grayson's game with Georgetown -- 32 points on 12 shots!

For the season, he's got 196 points on 120 field goal attempts. That's an awfully good scoring ratio.

Yeah, Allen has a real nose for scoring. He is relentless in attacking when there are holes in a defense. When he can exploit a mismatch, he does so repeatedly in as simple and direct a way possible. There is no letting up and taking easy shots - he goes at the rim hard. His tenacity is really impressive. I'm not sure he has as diverse a skill set as some players, but he just doesn't let up. And he's athletic enough that he doesn't necessarily need that diverse skill set. And with the new emphasis on perimeter foul calls, he is living at the line in the second halves of halves.

Troublemaker
12-07-2015, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure what changed since last year, when he seemed to hound guys on the perimeter...maybe the new rules? but he gets blown by regularly...buffalo abused him several times,

Yeah, I agree Matt had a very poor defensive game against Buffalo and even sat for a long stretch in the second half. Hopefully he was just tired and will get physically refreshed during this break. I'm not too concerned at this point. Also, if Derryck takes over as the main PG at some point, Matt can go back to defending the wing, which is probably where he's best suited.

uh_no
12-07-2015, 06:04 PM
Yeah, I agree Matt had a very poor defensive game against Buffalo and even sat for a long stretch in the second half. Hopefully he was just tired and will get physically refreshed during this break. I'm not too concerned at this point. Also, if Derryck takes over as the main PG at some point, Matt can go back to defending the wing, which is probably where he's best suited.

ah yes. defending point rather than 2 would count as a major change.

IMO derryck still has some work to do on team defense, but should be much quicker 1-1 on defense.

plimnko
12-07-2015, 10:19 PM
buffalo is playing iowa st tough tonight......... only down 4, 50-46, with 13 minutes left in the second half.

Olympic Fan
12-08-2015, 02:11 AM
buffalo is playing iowa st tough tonight..... only down 4, 50-46, with 13 minutes left in the second half.

Iowa State ended up beating Buffalo 84-63 ... almost exactly the same as our 82-59 victory (well, we were two points better -- a 23-point margin as opposed to a 21-point margin).

Of course, Yale, which we beat by 19 (80-61) went out the next time and lost to Albany by 34 (88-54), so maybe comparing scores isn't such a good idea.

plimnko
12-08-2015, 04:20 AM
Iowa State ended up beating Buffalo 84-63 ... almost exactly the same as our 82-59 victory (well, we were two points better -- a 23-point margin as opposed to a 21-point margin).

Of course, Yale, which we beat by 19 (80-61) went out the next time and lost to Albany by 34 (88-54), so maybe comparing scores isn't such a good idea.

i realize comparing scores is like comparing apples and oranges. i was more commenting on the competitive nature of the buffalo team.

Troublemaker
12-08-2015, 09:42 PM
Derryck had a quietly solid game, too. He played some of his best defense. His on the ball D is usually good, but he fought through screens, rotated, and played off the ball better, too. Not perfect but much better. On offense, he played much more under control. He wasn't asked to be the primary creator when he was in as we played a lot more motion when he was at the point. That seemed to simplify the game for him. No turnovers. A few extra assists. Only one Ill-advised two point jump shot (that he made, thankfully). It was a baby step, but much like Brandon's gradual improvement since NYC, I hope we look back and see this game as Derryck's first on the climb back up to top form.

Yeah, I was impressed. Season-high in assists (5) for Derryck. No turnovers. Great on-ball defense.

I wonder if the future rotation in competitive games will look this: (Apologies to those who hate rotation/minutes discussion.)





Starters



Rotation



in blowouts


30
Fr
Derryck










35
So
Allen

20
Fr
Kennard






30
Jr
Matt





0
Rs
Robinson


35
Fr
Ingram

5
Fr
Jeter

0
So
Obi


30
Sr
Jefferson

15
Sr
Plumlee

0
Fr
Vrankovic




Certainly there will be a few opponents where Duke has to play 2 bigs, and Marshall and Chase would play more minutes in those games.

But I bet those starters will become the predominant lineup against most opponents.

uh_no
12-08-2015, 10:12 PM
Yeah, I was impressed. Season-high in assists (5) for Derryck. No turnovers. Great on-ball defense.

I wonder if the future rotation in competitive games will look this: (Apologies to those who hate rotation/minutes discussion.)





Starters



Rotation



in blowouts


30
Fr
Derryck










35
So
Allen

20
Fr
Kennard






30
Jr
Matt





0
Rs
Robinson


35
Fr
Ingram

5
Fr
Jeter

0
So
Obi


30
Sr
Jefferson

15
Sr
Plumlee

0
Fr
Vrankovic




Certainly there will be a few opponents where Duke has to play 2 bigs, and Marshall and Chase would play more minutes in those games.

But I bet those starters will become the predominant lineup against most opponents.

I would be shocked if marshall isn't a starter for the season.

Unless there is major reason, K will start his senior captains.

Troublemaker
12-08-2015, 10:19 PM
I would be shocked if marshall isn't a starter for the season.

Unless there is major reason, K will start his senior captains.

Well, luckily Duke also has senior captain Amile and junior captain Matt, who should provide enough leadership for the rotation I laid out.

Coach might continue starting Marshall nominally, but I bet those 5 starters I listed end up averaging more minutes than him.

uh_no
12-08-2015, 11:25 PM
Well, luckily Duke also has senior captain Amile and junior captain Matt, who should provide enough leadership for the rotation I laid out.


it's not about "having enough leadership" on the floor.

it's about K starting his captains. Paulus was benched, yes, but the team was also far under-performing with him starting....seeing as marshall has been a major contributor (playing 58% of all minutes).

Further, given the rotations we've seen so far, there is little evidence that derryck will be on the floor in place of marshall for large stretches of time, such as those you'd expect of starters.

Marshall is in 4 of the 5 most used lineups, as well as the top 2 most used lineups which contain derryck.

Derryck has been on the floor without marshall for 29.7% of all minutes
derryck and marshall have been on the floor together 52.9% of all minutes...almost twice as often.

Is it open and shut? no. but there is zero indication that marshall will be benched



Coach might continue starting Marshall nominally, but I bet those 5 starters I listed end up averaging more minutes than him.

You might as well be betting that duke will win at least 1 ACC game. Marshall as a big will almost assuredly play fewer minutes than guards in the rotation. It's rare to see bigs get as much run as smalls.

Further, Even WITH the fact that derryck has spent some time on the pine due to poor play, he is STILL almost getting as much run as plumlee (.3% difference).

I would be SHOCKED if plumlee DIDN'T have the fewest minutes of any of the top 6 come the end of the year. (barring any injury or extreme performance issues)

Troublemaker
12-08-2015, 11:30 PM
Looks like we largely agree, uh_no.

Our difference is whether Marshall continues to be the nominal starter if Derryck begins playing 30mpg at some point.

freshmanjs
12-08-2015, 11:30 PM
it's not about "having enough leadership" on the floor.

it's about K starting his captains. Paulus was benched, yes, but the team was also far under-performing with him starting...seeing as marshall has been a major contributor (playing 58% of all minutes).

Further, given the rotations we've seen so far, there is little evidence that derryck will be on the floor in place of marshall for large stretches of time, such as those you'd expect of starters.

Marshall is in 4 of the 5 most used lineups, as well as the top 2 most used lineups which contain derryck.

Derryck has been on the floor without marshall for 29.7% of all minutes
derryck and marshall have been on the floor together 52.9% of all minutes...almost twice as often.

Is it open and shut? no. but there is zero indication that marshall will be benched



You might as well be betting that duke will win at least 1 ACC game. Marshall as a big will almost assuredly play fewer minutes than guards in the rotation. It's rare to see bigs get as much run as smalls.

Further, Even WITH the fact that derryck has spent some time on the pine due to poor play, he is STILL almost getting as much run as plumlee (.3% difference).

I would be SHOCKED if plumlee DIDN'T have the fewest minutes of any of the top 6 come the end of the year. (barring any injury or extreme performance issues)

there have been many captains (senior or not) who didn't start for all or part of the season (including last year).

Saratoga2
12-09-2015, 11:20 AM
it's not about "having enough leadership" on the floor.

it's about K starting his captains. Paulus was benched, yes, but the team was also far under-performing with him starting...seeing as marshall has been a major contributor (playing 58% of all minutes).

Further, given the rotations we've seen so far, there is little evidence that derryck will be on the floor in place of marshall for large stretches of time, such as those you'd expect of starters.

Marshall is in 4 of the 5 most used lineups, as well as the top 2 most used lineups which contain derryck.

Derryck has been on the floor without marshall for 29.7% of all minutes
derryck and marshall have been on the floor together 52.9% of all minutes...almost twice as often.

Is it open and shut? no. but there is zero indication that marshall will be benched



You might as well be betting that duke will win at least 1 ACC game. Marshall as a big will almost assuredly play fewer minutes than guards in the rotation. It's rare to see bigs get as much run as smalls.

Further, Even WITH the fact that derryck has spent some time on the pine due to poor play, he is STILL almost getting as much run as plumlee (.3% difference).

I would be SHOCKED if plumlee DIDN'T have the fewest minutes of any of the top 6 come the end of the year. (barring any injury or extreme performance issues)

Marshall's main value is to counter teams with big and strong centers, particularly if we can't gain an advantage by going small.If the other team is smaller and quick his value really declines. Getting 23 minutes with a single rebound and getting beat around the basket is not going to keep him in games. So my point is Marshall will be played in spots and wind up sitting a lot.

superdave
12-09-2015, 11:25 AM
Marshall's main value is to counter teams with big and strong centers, particularly if we can't gain an advantage by going small.If the other team is smaller and quick his value really declines. Getting 23 minutes with a single rebound and getting beat around the basket is not going to keep him in games. So my point is Marshall will be played in spots and wind up sitting a lot.

I think the ACC teams we play going forward will be bigger than the VCU's and Buffalo's of the world. I dont expect Marshall's minutes to go down because our opponents will be larger in stature. But I do think your point about matchups is true.

I do think we will start games big and go with the smaller lineup to close games out. I could see Marshall being in and out for offensive-defensive substitutions in late game situations.

I am also still holding out for more full-court defensive pressure. But I seem to be let down every year < sad trombone >

flyingdutchdevil
12-09-2015, 12:14 PM
MP3 has thus far been excellent on D and rebounds. He still fouls a bunch, but it hasn't hurt Duke. And he is a great opportunistic scorer on alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and easy hand-offs in the paint. IMO, he's been much better than advertised.

But he has zero, and I mean zero, offensive chops one iso plays. He has shown nothing at his time at Duke to warrant taking those shots. I cringe every time a guard passes the ball to MP3 in the paint. I want MP3 to pass out asap.

But, the question remains: do we need MP3 to score to succeed as a team, especially ion March? With Jeter's potential offensive game being 10x what MP3's currently is, or bringing in a true PG and sliding AJ to the 5, can Duke go further in March? I'm not so sure. I really like MP3 in the game, as long as he doesn't shoot in iso situations.

freshmanjs
12-09-2015, 12:15 PM
MP3 has thus far been excellent on D and rebounds. He still fouls a bunch, but it hasn't hurt Duke. And he is a great opportunistic scorer on alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and easy hand-offs in the paint. IMO, he's been much better than advertised.

But he has zero, and I mean zero, offensive chops one iso plays. He has shown nothing at his time at Duke to warrant taking those shots. I cringe every time a guard passes the ball to MP3 in the paint. I want MP3 to pass out asap.

But, the question remains: do we need MP3 to score to succeed as a team, especially ion March? With Jeter's potential offensive game being 10x what MP3's currently is, or bringing in a true PG and sliding AJ to the 5, can Duke go further in March? I'm not so sure. I really like MP3 in the game, as long as he doesn't shoot in iso situations.

since we have the #1 offense in all of division 1 (and it's not even close vs #2), i'm not worried about this at all.

kAzE
12-09-2015, 12:37 PM
MP3 has thus far been excellent on D and rebounds. He still fouls a bunch, but it hasn't hurt Duke. And he is a great opportunistic scorer on alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and easy hand-offs in the paint. IMO, he's been much better than advertised.

But he has zero, and I mean zero, offensive chops one iso plays. He has shown nothing at his time at Duke to warrant taking those shots. I cringe every time a guard passes the ball to MP3 in the paint. I want MP3 to pass out asap.

But, the question remains: do we need MP3 to score to succeed as a team, especially ion March? With Jeter's potential offensive game being 10x what MP3's currently is, or bringing in a true PG and sliding AJ to the 5, can Duke go further in March? I'm not so sure. I really like MP3 in the game, as long as he doesn't shoot in iso situations.

I do too, but if he's 1 on 1 against a smaller defender and he's already got deep position down low, I don't mind him trying to post up and score. He's shown enough improvement on the foul line to where we can reasonably expect at least 1 point. In any other situation, kicking it out to an open shooter is the preferred play.

flyingdutchdevil
12-09-2015, 12:39 PM
since we have the #1 offense in all of division 1 (and it's not even close vs #2), i'm not worried about this at all.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's pretty amazing to have the best offense in the country when you consider a) GA was barely part of the rotation last year and b) our freshman look like freshman (unlike the grown men that were Winslow, Jones, and the Oak last year).

I am really impressed with this team. All of our returning players have been better than expected and 3 of our 4 freshman are showing real promise, especially Ingram who is using his stupidly long body (7'3" wingspan still blows my mind) on offense and defense.