MBB: Duke vs. Indiana (12/2, 9:15 pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Indiana comes to Duke as part of the ACC/Big 10 Challenge. ESPN will air the game in the late session on Wednesday night.

[FerryFor50]

Here's hoping the Hoosiers don't figure out their defensive issues by then. They've been putrid.

[whereinthehellami]

I thought I heard on one of the broadcasts over the holiday that Indiana has been playing 4 guards and having some major defensive issues because of that.

IIRC Troy Williams, a player Duke flirted with for a bit back in the day is on that team. Of course UNC thought they had him locked up before he signed with Indiana. Silly holes, cheats are for losers!

[luburch]

Here's hoping the Hoosiers don't figure out their defensive issues by then. They've been putrid.

Don't bank on them figuring it out. Indiana has had defensive issues ever since Crean arrived in Bloomington. Same with turnovers.

Indiana can shoot and shoot well. The only two players who see significant time that cannot shoot from deep consistently are Troy Williams (Junior) and Thomas Bryant (Freshman).

[kAzE]

Everyone on our schedule is trying to become unranked by the time they play us. Our SOS is reeling right now.

Our offense should carry us past the Hoosiers without too much resistance if they keep playing the way they have been playing. I don't see them being able to stop us, especially if Luke keeps playing well. Trying to stop Grayson is one thing, but with 2 go-to scorers on the perimeter, and some of the best offensive rebounders in the country, they will have a rough time trying to keep our scoring down.

[Troublemaker]

Indiana plays a game tonight against Alcorn St (ranked #348 by kenpom). The Hoosiers must feel that playing against a low-level team is better preparation for a game two nights later than taking the day off. Interesting approach.

Regardless, I'm sure they've spent most of their time since Maui gameplanning for Duke rather than focusing on Alcorn St.

It makes me uncomfortable that Indiana is a talented and somewhat desperate team right now. Hopefully our young team will realize that the Indiana they see on tape won't be the Indiana that shows up on Wednesday.

[MarkD83]

Everyone on our schedule is trying to become unranked by the time they play us. Our SOS is reeling right now.



Duke plays UNC in a few months I would love for them to be unranked at that time.

[Troublemaker]

I wouldn't worry about our SOS.

RPI Forecast (http://www.rpiforecast.com/index2.html) uses Sagarin Predictor to play out the rest of the season and project the end-of-season RPI. As of right now, Duke is projected to have the #4 SOS in the country.

Our ACC schedule and our non-conference slate's relative lack of bottom-100 cupcakes usually lead to a strong RPI SOS for Duke. This season should be no different.

[CDu]

I thought I heard on one of the broadcasts over the holiday that Indiana has been playing 4 guards and having some major defensive issues because of that.

Not quite a 4-guard lineup, but they certainly are not big.

Indiana has just two regulars 6'8" or taller, and also just two regulars (the same two) weighing 220 lbs or more. Their starting center is Thomas Bryant, a 6'10", 245 lb freshman who is strong around the rim but pretty bad away from it. He is also their only shotblocker, but he's still fairly weak defensively. The other big guy is Max Bielfeldt. Bielfeldt is a burly 6'8", 240 lb guy whose game doesn't match his frame. He's a stretch 4 kind of in the poor-man's mold of Ryan Kelly, minus the solid defensive instincts. Those two guys play about 42 mpg, and almost exclusively sub for one another at C.

Outside of those two, the Hoosiers have three SFs taking turns at PF: Troy Williams, Collin Hartman, and Juwan Morgan. Williams is a terrific all-around talent, and is comfortable playing any of 3 positions (SG, SF, PF) but strongest at his natural SF. He can drive, can hit 3s, and is a menace in transition. He's also probably their best defender. Hartman is a Lee Melchionni type: capable but inconsistent shooter who doesn't do much of anything noteworthily well at the college level. On a better team, he'd rarely play. And Morgan is a frosh who rarely plays. These three guys combine for about 52 mpg.

So they play a 3-guard, 1_SF, 1-big lineup almost exclusively, as only about 10-15 mpg do they have 3 forwards/centers in the game. So rebounding is a big problem. Adding to that, they don't have very good defensive players at any position. They have two talented offensive guards in Ferrell and Blackmon, but neither is a great defensive player. Ferrell is quick and tenacious but very small. Blackmon is more interested in offense.

This is a game that Jefferson and Plumlee should absolutely dominate the glass. Ingram will have a potentially tough assignment if he has to guard (or is guarded by) Williams. Thornton will have his hands full with Yogi Ferrell, who is terrific. But everywhere else I think we have the edge, and in most cases I think the edge is substantial. Indiana can't defend, and they don't have a ton of guys who can score either. It's just a rough mix right now in Bloomington. Maybe Bryant will develop quickly, but they are a few players short. And I don't think Crean is the type of coach who can get more from less, if you will.

[Olympic Fan]

Everyone on our schedule is trying to become unranked by the time they play us. Our SOS is reeling right now.


Indiana, No. 13 last week in the AP, dropped out of the top 25 after losing two of three in Maui. Utah, which we play Dec. 19 in the Meadowlands, just dropped out of both polls -- but they are at No. 27 in the AP and No. 26 in the coaches, so a reasonable chance they could be back in the top 25 by the time we play them.

Right now, there are six ACC teams in the top 25 and we play seven games against the other five ranked ACC teams. Plus, Pitt and Notre Dame are not far out of the rankings, so we'll get our share of ranked opponents.

Interesting that after a good week that saw Duke beat Yale and Utah State fairly easily, that Duke should drop in both polls -- from 6 to 7 in the AP and from 3 to 5 in the Coaches Poll:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

[luburch]

Not quite a 4-guard lineup, but they certainly are not big.

Indiana has just two regulars 6'8" or taller, and also just two regulars (the same two) weighing 220 lbs or more. Their starting center is Thomas Bryant, a 6'10", 245 lb freshman who is strong around the rim but pretty bad away from it. He is also their only shotblocker, but he's still fairly weak defensively. The other big guy is Max Bielfeldt. Bielfeldt is a burly 6'8", 240 lb guy whose game doesn't match his frame. He's a stretch 4 kind of in the poor-man's mold of Ryan Kelly, minus the solid defensive instincts. Those two guys play about 42 mpg, and almost exclusively sub for one another at C.

Outside of those two, the Hoosiers have three SFs taking turns at PF: Troy Williams, Collin Hartman, and Juwan Morgan. Williams is a terrific all-around talent, and is comfortable playing any of 3 positions (SG, SF, PF) but strongest at his natural SF. He can drive, can hit 3s, and is a menace in transition. He's also probably their best defender. Hartman is a Lee Melchionni type: capable but inconsistent shooter who doesn't do much of anything noteworthily well at the college level. On a better team, he'd rarely play. And Morgan is a frosh who rarely plays. These three guys combine for about 52 mpg.

So they play a 3-guard, 1_SF, 1-big lineup almost exclusively, as only about 10-15 mpg do they have 3 forwards/centers in the game. So rebounding is a big problem. Adding to that, they don't have very good defensive players at any position. They have two talented offensive guards in Ferrell and Blackmon, but neither is a great defensive player. Ferrell is quick and tenacious but very small. Blackmon is more interested in offense.

This is a game that Jefferson and Plumlee should absolutely dominate the glass. Ingram will have a potentially tough assignment if he has to guard (or is guarded by) Williams. Thornton will have his hands full with Yogi Ferrell, who is terrific. But everywhere else I think we have the edge, and in most cases I think the edge is substantial. Indiana can't defend, and they don't have a ton of guys who can score either. It's just a rough mix right now in Bloomington. Maybe Bryant will develop quickly, but they are a few players short. And I don't think Crean is the type of coach who can get more from less, if you will.

CDu you make some goods points, but you're also off on some things.

Last night Indiana started with a small ball lineup. Yogi Ferrell, James Blackmon Jr., Robert Johnson, Troy Williams, and Thomas Bryant in the middle. Indiana tore apart Alcorn State 112-70 (No. 348 in KenPom), but that's not saying much.

Yogi is a very good guard. All-American caliber player who can score and pass. He is also the best defender on the team when he decides to play defense. Two season ago he took on the challenge of guarding Nik Stauskas (this is when Stauskas was lighting almost everyone up) and completely shut him down. He has the ability to shut players down regularly, but generally he cares more about the offensive end.

Blackmon can shoot. Off the dribble, two feet behind the line, in transition, you name it. He had 35 last night (11-15 fg,6-9 3pt) and is the leading scorer on the team. He's pretty good at attacking the basket, but has a loose handle and is turnover prone. Also, as CDu said, his defense is non-existent. If he gets matched up on Grayson (I doubt this happens. I bet Crean matches him up with Jones) then Grayson should have 40.

Troy Williams might be the single most frustrating basketball player to watch. Outstanding athleticism and good at finishing around the rim. No jump shot or 3 point shot at all. I think he took somewhere around 11 threes last season. He apparently worked on his shot all summer, but I would make him shoot if I was guarding him. Williams should be a good defender, he has all the necessary tools, but he's not. He's simply just does not stay engaged unless he thinks he can get a block coming from the weak side.

Hartman is an outstanding role player. I believe he had the highest 3 point percentage on the Indiana team last season. Solid defender, who doesn't make mistakes, rebounds, hustles and does everything you want from a player. It's hard not to like this kid.

Thomas Bryant is talented and plays with a lot of energy. He will get out in transition and try to beat his man down the court. He enjoys blocking shots, probably a little too much, and his 1v1 defense is fine. He's not a great help defender and he can get exposed, mainly because Indiana's perimeter defense is atrocious. This kid will be a fun one to watch as the season goes on and into next year.

Bielfeldt is a grad transfer from Michigan who didn't see the court much when he was there. He's a decent shooter, rebounder, and 1v1 defender, but his help defense is not great. He is slow and doesn't have many post moves, or really any at all. Amile should have no problems guarding him.

Nick Zeisloft and Robert Johnson are the only other two players who will likely see extended minutes. Zeisloft is a deadly three point shooter. Doesn't need much time to get his shot off and if it's a clean look it's probably going in. Robert Johnson is either the best or second best defender on the team. Combo guard who is decent getting to the basket and knocking down open threes. He'll be a really solid four year player.

Indiana wants to play this game in transition. They want to open the floor up with drives and dump it off to open shooters. Sound familiar? If you put this team in the half court and make them work for each shot, there will be turnovers galore. Duke should have no troubles getting to the basket, as I have said many times Indiana's perimeter defense is honestly laughable, and their isn't much height or length to get in the way of finishing at the rim.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

The key to this game is going to be Yogi. I feel like he has been around for about 8 years now, he is experienced, talented, and he makes it happen for Indiana. We contain him, and our young guards don't get rattled by him then we are good to go in this game. If he goes off and is allowed to do as he pleases then we could be in for a tense night.

[Indoor66]

They got Crean and we got K. Think about that for a moment. :cool:

[CDu]

They got Crean and we got K. Think about that for a moment. :cool:

Yeah, we have the advantage in talent, by a comfortable margin. We also have the advantage in coaching, by an even more comfortable margin. They have an advantage at one, maybe two positions. We have the edge everywhere else. And they don't have the type of team to really exploit our weaknesses. We should be just fine in this game. Obviously anything can happen in any game, but we really shouldn't lose this one.

[CDu]

CDu you make some goods points, but you're also off on some things.

Last night Indiana started with a small ball lineup. Yogi Ferrell, James Blackmon Jr., Robert Johnson, Troy Williams, and Thomas Bryant in the middle. Indiana tore apart Alcorn State 112-70 (No. 348 in KenPom), but that's not saying much.

Yogi is a very good guard. All-American caliber player who can score and pass. He is also the best defender on the team when he decides to play defense. Two season ago he took on the challenge of guarding Nik Stauskas (this is when Stauskas was lighting almost everyone up) and completely shut him down. He has the ability to shut players down regularly, but generally he cares more about the offensive end.

Blackmon can shoot. Off the dribble, two feet behind the line, in transition, you name it. He had 35 last night (11-15 fg,6-9 3pt) and is the leading scorer on the team. He's pretty good at attacking the basket, but has a loose handle and is turnover prone. Also, as CDu said, his defense is non-existent. If he gets matched up on Grayson (I doubt this happens. I bet Crean matches him up with Jones) then Grayson should have 40.

Troy Williams might be the single most frustrating basketball player to watch. Outstanding athleticism and good at finishing around the rim. No jump shot or 3 point shot at all. I think he took somewhere around 11 threes last season. He apparently worked on his shot all summer, but I would make him shoot if I was guarding him. Williams should be a good defender, he has all the necessary tools, but he's not. He's simply just does not stay engaged unless he thinks he can get a block coming from the weak side.

Hartman is an outstanding role player. I believe he had the highest 3 point percentage on the Indiana team last season. Solid defender, who doesn't make mistakes, rebounds, hustles and does everything you want from a player. It's hard not to like this kid.

Thomas Bryant is talented and plays with a lot of energy. He will get out in transition and try to beat his man down the court. He enjoys blocking shots, probably a little too much, and his 1v1 defense is fine. He's not a great help defender and he can get exposed, mainly because Indiana's perimeter defense is atrocious. This kid will be a fun one to watch as the season goes on and into next year.

Bielfeldt is a grad transfer from Michigan who didn't see the court much when he was there. He's a decent shooter, rebounder, and 1v1 defender, but his help defense is not great. He is slow and doesn't have many post moves, or really any at all. Amile should have no problems guarding him.

Nick Zeisloft and Robert Johnson are the only other two players who will likely see extended minutes. Zeisloft is a deadly three point shooter. Doesn't need much time to get his shot off and if it's a clean look it's probably going in. Robert Johnson is either the best or second best defender on the team. Combo guard who is decent getting to the basket and knocking down open threes. He'll be a really solid four year player.

Indiana wants to play this game in transition. They want to open the floor up with drives and dump it off to open shooters. Sound familiar? If you put this team in the half court and make them work for each shot, there will be turnovers galore. Duke should have no troubles getting to the basket, as I have said many times Indiana's perimeter defense is honestly laughable, and their isn't much height or length to get in the way of finishing at the rim.

Not really sure where you think we disagree. I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, and I think it's consistent with what I said. You note that they played three guards, a small forward, and a big, which is what I said. I guess you disagree a bit on Troy Williams (saying he's not a good defender) and Yogi Ferrell (saying he is). But in practice, I'd say neither is a consistently good defender. Williams has the size and athleticism to give Ingram trouble. Ferrell has the quickness and toughness, but lacks the size and the focus to consistently be good on that end. He'll almost certainly win his matchup with Thornton.

[Troublemaker]

Some concerns I have:


Indiana isn't a good defensive team overall, but Ferrell can pressure the ball pretty good. If Matt can't handle it, can Derryck deliver another good game against quality competition? So far he's played better against the good teams. And if not, maybe Brandon can do more ball-handling and creating in this game. Yogi on the point & Johnson on Grayson (my predictions) will mean Blackmon guarding Brandon, which should be a matchup Brandon can take advantage of.
Duke's transition defense hasn't been good, and Indiana can really get out and run. Hopefully we score well and offensive rebound well so they have limited opportunities to get out in transition.
Duke's the early season matchup that Indiana has been thinking about all offseason. They played poorly in Maui but will probably give a much better effort tomorrow. Does our team understand that? Compounding that, Duke has struggled at the beginning of some games this season. Can we be ready at the tip tomorrow? Will Coach K's postgame presser contain "they knocked us back at the beginning of the game" and "our kids have to learn that our opponents play us differently than other teams"?

[Troublemaker]

If you put this team in the half court and make them work for each shot, there will be turnovers galore.

The 1-3-1 zone should make an appearance in this game. Yogi is 6'0", Johnson 6'3", and Blackmon 6'4".

Duke's length in the 1-3-1 should bother them.

I have confidence we will guard Indiana fine. It's strange, but I'm actually more concerned about the offensive side. It's the first big-time matchup in Cameron this season. Can our young team stay calm and patient on offense to pick the Hoosiers apart? Indiana is poor defensively but they've done an okay job forcing turnovers. Hopefully we don't cough up the ball and feed their transition game.

[Saratoga2]

Will it be MP3, Amile, Grayson, Matt and Brandon or will it be
MP3, Amile, Gayson, Derryck and Matt

Will Derryck be our 6th man or will Luke?

My guess is the first lineup with Derryck coming in if Yogi is too quick for Matt. Brandon will probably get the starting nod since he can definitely give Indiana fits both offensively and defensively. Jeter will probably be our 8th man and get minutes in relief of MP3.

[MChambers]

We have eight starters!

[devildeac]

We have eight starters!

Yep, and most of (all?) the haters would say 3 of them wear striped shirts and whistles :o .

[weezie]

They got Crean and we got K. Think about that for a moment. :cool:

They've got circus tent pants and we've got many sparkly rings. Think about that too. :cool:

[oakvillebluedevil]

They've got circus tent pants and we've got many sparkly rings. Think about that too. :cool:

Clear pro-Duke biases for tomorrow night aside, I think those warm-up pants are awesome. I had many a conversation with various coaches throughout my youth to get my teams warm-ups like that. Never happened sadly.

DT will be the player I'm watching closest tomorrow. Putting myself in his shoes the kid must be exhausted...from the article posted earlier, sounds like he's had near zero break throughout the summer, and this time of year is really tough for Duke students (semester narrowing down, midterms/final papers/finals piling up).

Yogi's a really good college guard, and this will be a serious test. I'm excited to see how he responds.

[mgtr]

Clear pro-Duke biases for tomorrow night aside, I think those warm-up pants are awesome. I had many a conversation with various coaches throughout my youth to get my teams warm-ups like that. Never happened sadly.

DT will be the player I'm watching closest tomorrow. Putting myself in his shoes the kid must be exhausted...from the article posted earlier, sounds like he's had near zero break throughout the summer, and this time of year is really tough for Duke students (semester narrowing down, midterms/final papers/finals piling up).

Yogi's a really good college guard, and this will be a serious test. I'm excited to see how he responds.

Question for our "fonticians" : Why does the letter "g" come out as the letter "q" except at the end of words? This does not apply when composing, but in the final listing. It doesn't appear in the above long quote, but in the original post it does. Quite a quirk!

[CDu]

Question for our "fonticians" : Why does the letter "g" come out as the letter "q" except at the end of words? This does not apply when composing, but in the final listing. It doesn't appear in the above long quote, but in the original post it does. Quite a quirk!

I'm not sure what you are talking about. All the cases of "g" I see in this thread look like "g" (and not "q") to me.

[mgtr]

OK, I guess the effect is erratic. Sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't. Of course, it could be on my end or anywhere in-between. I will wait until I find a good example to cite. Aha, here it is. Look at post 21 from Weezie. Two examples of "g" turned into "q", at least on my screen.

[flyingdutchdevil]

They've got circus tent pants and we've got many sparkly rings. Think about that too. :cool:

Sorry weezie, but I'm a fan of the candy cane pants, and very appropriate given the time of year!

In all seriousness, this game is going to be awesome. I'm expecting a combined 170 points in the game. Unrealistic? Absolutely. But Indiana cannot defend the post to save their life and Duke is figuring a lot of things out on defense. Plus, I feel that this Indiana team is built to bust a zone. I'm looking forward to lots of man-to-man D.

Also looking forward to how Indiana deals (or cannot deal) with Grayson Allen and whether or not AJ can score 16+ points. I've given up on MP3 as an offensive threat, especially given how 50%+ of his iso plays result in offensive fouls. MP3 is really good at rebounding, defense, and alley-oops/second-change points/easy-feeds-under-the-basket, but iso plays is something that I never want to see from MP3. Also, I'm looking forward to seeing Jeter make a (hopefully) lengthy appearance and score around 6-8 points.

And, lastly, I'm looking forward to seeing how Matt Jones and Derryck Thornton deal with Yogi Ferrell. He leads the team in assists and is second in both points and rebounds. He's one of the best guards in America. If we can render Yogi ineffective, then Duke wins this game easily.

[Indoor66]

OK, I guess the effect is erratic. Sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't. Of course, it could be on my end or anywhere in-between. I will wait until I find a good example to cite. Aha, here it is. Look at post 21 from Weezie. Two examples of "g" turned into "q", at least on my screen.

My eyes are getting old, too! :D:cool:;)

[CDu]

OK, I guess the effect is erratic. Sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't. Of course, it could be on my end or anywhere in-between. I will wait until I find a good example to cite. Aha, here it is. Look at post 21 from Weezie. Two examples of "g" turned into "q", at least on my screen.

Yeah, must be your screen (or your eyes ;)). In that post, I see three "g" letters, all that look like "g".

[devildeac]

I've had some questions/problems recognizing the difference at times, perhaps from our laptop at home but not from my work tablet (my current location/keyboard):

qqq
ggg

(I'd have typed another q but that would make 4 of them and the board filters/censors might get me :rolleyes: .)

[Neals384]

OK, I guess the effect is erratic. Sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't. Of course, it could be on my end or anywhere in-between. I will wait until I find a good example to cite. Aha, here it is. Look at post 21 from Weezie. Two examples of "g" turned into "q", at least on my screen.

mgtr, please go see your eye doctor. Not kidding.

[mgtr]

OK, I accept that the problem is at my end -- computer or screen. My eyes are OK. Back on subject, I want to see a "w" tonight, and not an "l" that looks like a "w"! Or any other crazy combination.

[brevity]

Question for our "fonticians" : Why does the letter "g" come out as the letter "q" except at the end of words? This does not apply when composing, but in the final listing. It doesn't appear in the above long quote, but in the original post it does. Quite a quirk!

I can't picture a scenario where the confusion between a lower case G and a lower case Q would be a detriment. Unless you were a 1980s Republican who softened after taking a long look at his or her AIDS quilt.

(Sorry, mods, but awesome wordplay > public policy risk.)

[fraggler]

All I can see on this forum is GTHC repeated over and over again.

[Neals384]

All I can see on this forum is GTHC repeated over and over again.

QTHC? What does the Q stand for?

[NSDukeFan]

QTHC? What does the Q stand for?

Quoth The Heel Cheaters?

[weezie]

Oh no, Tirico calls sparty game are we going to get stuck with vitale again... :(

[-jk]

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[riverside6]

Live tempo-based stats for Duke/Indiana, starters posted...

http://www.scacchoops.com/indiana-at-duke-basketball-live-stats-12022015

[pfrduke]

Indiana posted a 1.33 point per possession figure in the first half. And is losing by 9 because we're over 1.5(!!). Not many turnovers, lots of offensive rebounds, and really good shooting for both teams. Fun game to watch but I wouldn't mind seeing us get a few more stops - if we just eliminate some of the silly miscommunication plays our defense would be stronger.

[kmspeaks]

I'm not sure cause I think Vitale has only said it 12 times but was it 4:45?

[Billy Dat]

According to the media pundits, an IU kid inadvertently bumped K as the teams headed to half and K got fired up and Capel nearly lost his ish. Guess the coaches are pretty fired up, eh?

[subzero02]

Ingram makes stretch arm strong look like a t-rex....

[pfrduke]

Amile Jefferson is just playing like a Big. Strong. Man. this year. His rebound and score against a triple team was incredible.

[Billy Dat]

Amile Jefferson is just playing like a Big. Strong. Man. this year. His rebound and score against a triple team was incredible.

Agree on Amile...and Matt Jones has done an admirable job running the team - it helps when the opponent is this bad on defense.

[Pghdukie]

Did the Crazies ask Harbaugh to join them ?