Whither Obi?

[CoSprings]

It's painful to watch him sit over and again. Does he have a role on this team? Should he? We're up 20 and he can't darken the floor. Strange.

[Devilwin]

It's painful to watch him sit over and again. Does he have a role on this team? Should he? We're up 20 and he can't darken the floor. Strange.

I agree. Heard nothing but good things about the kid and now he don't even get a sniff...But I haven't won over 1021 games so my opinion means jack at this point.

[Furniture]

I don't see him moping though. Seems fairly into the games which is a good sign...

[Sixthman]

It's painful to watch him sit over and again. Does he have a role on this team? Should he? We're up 20 and he can't darken the floor. Strange.

Chase Jeter played five minutes last night. He has looked pretty good in recent play and seems to be getting the hang of the college game. He looks like he is going to be very good. Right now, Jeter is the eighth man in an eight man rotation. I can't see Obi playing more than a couple of minutes until Jeter is getting 15 to 20 minutes, which may not happen this season. Nick Pagliuca came off the bench for the last minute of the game (made a couple of decent defensive plays). I imagine that he has earned that time in practice. Of course, every player, coach and manager has a role on this team, and to me, Obi's game looks a lot like a number of the big men we have played against. I am sure that gives him a valuable role in practice and preparation for games.

[johnb]

K didn't win all those games by distributing minutes based on effort or who's a good person or improving the spirits of those at the end of the bench.

I'm assuming Obi has been counseled that he's on the bench this season and that he needs to be a warrior in practice both to improve the team and to be prepared for the unexpected. things aren't really looking good for pt in 2016-17, either, since Giles and Jeter may take the time going to Amile and Marshall. But who knows--he may well play a strong role next year and then be relatively featured as a senior. Such a trajectory isn't for everyone, but it has worked well for a long series of Duke guys whose presence made a big difference at the end of their career.

[BD80]

I wonder whether wither rather than whither

[Indoor66]

I wonder whether wither rather than whither

Depends on wether you pronounce the H! :D:cool:

[devildeac]

Depends on wether you pronounce the H! :D:cool:

And don't worry, if you don't like the weather, wait a minute or two and it'll change, whether you like it or not.

[Henderson]

Obi patient. It's a long season, and he's just a sophomore anyway.

Lotta jumpiness this year.

[Isaac Sours]

It's painful to watch him sit over and again. Does he have a role on this team? Should he? We're up 20 and he can't darken the floor. Strange.

I have issues with Pagliuca seeing the floor more than Obi. NOT that Pags hasn't earned it through hard work in practice. But Obi is a scholarship player, and I doubt K would have taken him if he was lazy. It just doesn't make sense that we've only gone 7-8 deep in meaningful games this year.

[lotusland]

I'm sure Obi wants to play but I doubt he's anxious to get 45 seconds of garbage time over a walk-on.

[Furniture]

With Amile and MP3 retiring at the end of this year won't we need him? Maybe he knows that and is prepared to be patient!!

[NSDukeFan]

With Amile and MP3 retiring at the end of this year won't we need him? Maybe he knows that and is prepared to be patient!!

I'm not sure it's retiring as much as using up their eligibility and joining the workforce. (;

[Troublemaker]

I have issues with Pagliuca seeing the floor more than Obi. NOT that Pags hasn't earned it through hard work in practice. But Obi is a scholarship player

Every minute of game tape is useful to the coaches. Pags played the last minute instead of Obi probably because the staff wanted to use that minute looking at Jeter playing Center with Ingram at PF. If the staff had wanted to take a look at a big lineup instead, then either Vrank or Obi would've played.

We're not even sure that Sean is ahead of Vrank in the rotation right now. Vrank got all the garbage time minutes against Bryant, for example.


It just doesn't make sense that we've only gone 7-8 deep in meaningful games this year.

It makes sense because that's what Coach K has done for 35 years.

With Ingram playing a lot of 4, Obi is at best the 5th-big and may be the 6th-big on the team. 5th and 6th bigs across the country don't receive minutes in competitive games.

If Coach were going to break the mold of a 7-8 man rotation, it would've been with last season's team that incredibly had Grayson Allen as the 6th perimeter player at the beginning of the season, with Matt Jones and Rasheed Sulaimon as the 4th and 5th perimeter player in some order. Along with starters Tyus, Quinn, and Justise, that was likely the deepest perimeter in Duke basketball history.

This season? Meh. I never expected something beyond an 8-man rotation. We don't have incredible depth that would warrant breaking the mold. (But I do LOVE our team's depth 1 thru 8. I don't consider Duke a shallow team by any means. Luke and Chase can play.)

[CameronBornAndBred]

It makes sense because that's what Coach K has done for 35 years.

Beginning usually in the middle of ACC play. I don't recall K playing so few so early.

[BD80]

Beginning usually in the middle of ACC play. I don't recall K playing so few so early.

He wants Grayson and Brandon and Derrick to be ready to play 30-40 minutes per game, hopefully several sets of two games in three days at the end of the season.

[Wahoo2000]

Beginning usually in the middle of ACC play. I don't recall K playing so few so early.

I'm surprised by this as well. He usually seems to spend a good chunk of the noncon and early ACC schedule to get some decent experience for the guys down the bench. The depth to survive an injury/extended absence (or even just games with foul trouble) from any of the top 7 just isn't getting developed. Maybe he just really doesn't trust anyone past Thornton, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Ingram, Jefferson, and Plumlee.

If one of those guys DOES go down, does another player get significant minutes? Or do the other 6 all just play 34ish mpg?

[Troublemaker]

Beginning usually in the middle of ACC play. I don't recall K playing so few so early.

If you check last season's box scores for the first MSU game, Stanford game, and Temple game, which were the 3rd thru 5th games of the season, Coach was already playing a 7.5 / 8 man rotation.

[Edouble]

If one of those guys DOES go down, does another player get significant minutes? Or do the other 6 all just play 34ish mpg?

I think it depends on which guy it is.

[Troublemaker]

The depth to survive an injury/extended absence (or even just games with foul trouble) from any of the top 7 just isn't getting developed. Maybe he just really doesn't trust anyone past Thornton, Allen, Jones, Kennard, Ingram, Jefferson, and Plumlee.

If one of those guys DOES go down, does another player get significant minutes? Or do the other 6 all just play 34ish mpg?

No.

If a guard gets injured, Ingram plays more on the perimeter, and Jeter gets more minutes in the frontcourt.

If a big gets injured, Ingram plays more PF, and Jeter gets more minutes in the frontcourt.

If Ingram gets injured, Duke will live without a stretch 4, and Jeter gets more minutes in the frontcourt.

If Jeter gets injured, then Vrankovic will step into the Jeter role. Or perhaps Obi will if Obi is ahead of Vrank.

[arnie]

Well we had a brief sighting today, not sure K liked what he saw.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Yep. He looked much sharper in street clothes, bless his heart.
Love, Ima

[OldPhiKap]

Well we had a brief sighting today, not sure K liked what he saw.

Not sure that the blocking call or the moving screen we're necessarily fouls. If so, he was just a tad late in getting set both times.

The tackle down the lane, well -- that was not pretty.

Good to seek him in there. He is still only a sophomore and will develop if he puts the work in.

[MChambers]

Not sure that the blocking call or the moving screen we're necessarily fouls. If so, he was just a tad late in getting set both times.

The tackle down the lane, well -- that was not pretty.

Good to seek him in there. He is still only a sophomore and will develop if he puts the work in.

I thought he was there on the blocking call, but it was close. He doesn't move real well, which is a problem in modern basketball.

[uh_no]

I thought he was there on the blocking call, but it was close. He doesn't move real well, which is a problem in modern basketball.

I thought it was a block at the game (thought haven't seen a replay yet)....but whether it was or not, the way he moves, he's not going to get that call many times...

I think you hit it spot on, he doesn't move well enough....and that doesn't mean he can't contribute....just that he needs to figure out what he can do and do only that...much like Z figured it out.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I thought it was a charge, not a block.

Overall, a good game for us! LGD

[Tripping William]

I basically had Oly Fan's vantage point (maybe a little to the left, and five rows up), to my eye, Obi wasn't anywhere near ready for prime-time (even if you consider Utah State "prime-time").

[Scorp4me]

Looks like it's not just K who has forgotten that Obi is on the team. The front page article by the DBR doesn't even mention him.

Don't know the circumstances, but gotta feel sorry for the guy. I mean here is a kid who played some pretty good ball before he transferred and now not only can he not get off the bench, but no one even remembers he's here.

[MCFinARL]

Looks like it's not just K who has forgotten that Obi is on the team. The front page article by the DBR doesn't even mention him.

Don't know the circumstances, but gotta feel sorry for the guy. I mean here is a kid who played some pretty good ball before he transferred and now not only can he not get off the bench, but no one even remembers he's here.

Yes, it is too bad, because another transfer would take so much time. On the good news front, I seem to recall reading that he is a strong student, or at least was in high school, so he at least has an opportunity to get his degree from a very good school and make career plans from there. Having been on the Duke basketball team, even on the bench, is probably an asset (to say the least) when applying for jobs in anything from sports management to investment banking.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Looks like it's not just K who has forgotten that Obi is on the team. The front page article by the DBR doesn't even mention him.

Don't know the circumstances, but gotta feel sorry for the guy. I mean here is a kid who played some pretty good ball before he transferred and now not only can he not get off the bench, but no one even remembers he's here.

Seems a bit premature to be writing his eulogy here, folks. We're just a few games into the season - his first of live action in a power conference. He has - what - two and 3/4 seasons remaining to work his way into the lineup?

I think it's confusing because lots of young guys come in who don't look physically prepared to compete - especially underneath. Obi clearly has the body to bump around with anyone in the nation, but may not be "ready" in other ways. Jeter and Obi both don't appear prime-time as of yet, but have plenty of time to hone their game while we watch our duo of Amile and MP3 - both of whom have traveled their own long journey to being legit starters.

I'm really frustrated with people expecting players to excel out of the gate. Just because we've had some really stupendous one and done players doesn't mean that every 18 or 19 year old kid can come in and contribute right away and anything less is a disappointment. Each player has a unique skillset, and our coaching staff clearly expects the most out of them, but also our team benefits from four year guys like Amile or Quinn (or five year guys like MP3) who grow, develop, and become leaders. I feel this is an important part of what sets us apart from Calipari's road-stop style teams.

[sagegrouse]

I'm really frustrated with people expecting players to excel out of the gate. Just because we've had some really stupendous one and done players doesn't mean that every 18 or 19 year old kid can come in and contribute right away and anything less is a disappointment. Each player has a unique skillset, and our coaching staff clearly expects the most out of them, but also our team benefits from four year guys like Amile or Quinn (or five year guys like MP3) who grow, develop, and become leaders. I feel this is an important part of what sets us apart from Calipari's road-stop style teams.

Just harmless nostalgia for times long ago, like 2015.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Seems a bit premature to be writing his eulogy here, folks. We're just a few games into the season - his first of live action in a power conference. He has - what - two and 3/4 seasons remaining to work his way into the lineup?

I think it's confusing because lots of young guys come in who don't look physically prepared to compete - especially underneath. Obi clearly has the body to bump around with anyone in the nation, but may not be "ready" in other ways. Jeter and Obi both don't appear prime-time as of yet, but have plenty of time to hone their game while we watch our duo of Amile and MP3 - both of whom have traveled their own long journey to being legit starters.

I'm really frustrated with people expecting players to excel out of the gate. Just because we've had some really stupendous one and done players doesn't mean that every 18 or 19 year old kid can come in and contribute right away and anything less is a disappointment. Each player has a unique skillset, and our coaching staff clearly expects the most out of them, but also our team benefits from four year guys like Amile or Quinn (or five year guys like MP3) who grow, develop, and become leaders. I feel this is an important part of what sets us apart from Calipari's road-stop style teams.

Yes...and no. I agree with you on expectations for freshman recruits, especially players like Thornton and Jeter who aren't top 10 recruits but hold tons of potential. I think expecting Ingram to succeed right out the gate is fair, because the vast majority of top 5 recruits have made an impact from Day 1 (Rivers, Parker, Irving, Okafor, T Jones, Singler, McBob, etc).

Obi is another story. Coach K has historically had a defined strategy for transfers: get in transfers who can make an impact from Day 1 once they are eligible: D Jones (too many Joneses!), Curry, Hood. I think many - and myself included - believed Obi would have that type of impact. He's a rebounding machine who played solid D at Rice and averaged ~10ppg. Not bad. The writing was on the wall. It really looked like Coach K got another transfer who would be impactful from Day 1. But that isn't the case. I understand posters frustration with trying to understand who Obi really is.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes...and no. I agree with you on expectations for freshman recruits, especially players like Thornton and Jeter who aren't top 10 recruits but hold tons of potential. I think expecting Ingram to succeed right out the gate is fair, because the vast majority of top 5 recruits have made an impact from Day 1 (Rivers, Parker, Irving, Okafor, T Jones, Singler, McBob, etc).

Obi is another story. Coach K has historically had a defined strategy for transfers: get in transfers who can make an impact from Day 1 once they are eligible: D Jones (too many Joneses!), Curry, Hood. I think many - and myself included - believed Obi would have that type of impact. He's a rebounding machine who played solid D at Rice and averaged ~10ppg. Not bad. The writing was on the wall. It really looked like Coach K got another transfer who would be impactful from Day 1. But that isn't the case. I understand posters frustration with trying to understand who Obi really is.

This is a fair point that I hadn't considered. However, my larger point of expectations of players out of the gate was prompted by this thread, the thread where people called for Ingram to benched, and the one where Jeter was called out for underperformance. All three of these players have only a handful of games in a Duke uniform, and I get very frustrated when people are impatient for immediate results.

[Troublemaker]

Don't know the circumstances, but gotta feel sorry for the guy. I mean here is a kid who played some pretty good ball before he transferred and now not only can he not get off the bench, but no one even remembers he's here.

I think Sean would brush off your pity. By many accounts, he's a great kid who takes education seriously and he's going to be an academic senior next season at a great school. If, for whatever reason, he still isn't receiving PT next season, he can grad transfer (and not have to sit out a year) to a different school that isn't in the midst of a halycyon era of recruiting. With Duke degree in hand.

[subzero02]

Yes...and no. I agree with you on expectations for freshman recruits, especially players like Thornton and Jeter who aren't top 10 recruits but hold tons of potential. I think expecting Ingram to succeed right out the gate is fair, because the vast majority of top 5 recruits have made an impact from Day 1 (Rivers, Parker, Irving, Okafor, T Jones, Singler, McBob, etc).

Obi is another story. Coach K has historically had a defined strategy for transfers: get in transfers who can make an impact from Day 1 once they are eligible: D Jones (too many Joneses!), Curry, Hood. I think many - and myself included - believed Obi would have that type of impact. He's a rebounding machine who played solid D at Rice and averaged ~10ppg. Not bad. The writing was on the wall. It really looked like Coach K got another transfer who would be impactful from Day 1. But that isn't the case. I understand posters frustration with trying to understand who Obi really is.

Don't leave Roshown McLeod off your list of transfers. He was afterall the first player K accepted as a transfer. Like the 3 other players you listed, Mcleod was able to contribute right away.

[Saratoga2]

Yes...and no. I agree with you on expectations for freshman recruits, especially players like Thornton and Jeter who aren't top 10 recruits but hold tons of potential. I think expecting Ingram to succeed right out the gate is fair, because the vast majority of top 5 recruits have made an impact from Day 1 (Rivers, Parker, Irving, Okafor, T Jones, Singler, McBob, etc).

Obi is another story. Coach K has historically had a defined strategy for transfers: get in transfers who can make an impact from Day 1 once they are eligible: D Jones (too many Joneses!), Curry, Hood. I think many - and myself included - believed Obi would have that type of impact. He's a rebounding machine who played solid D at Rice and averaged ~10ppg. Not bad. The writing was on the wall. It really looked like Coach K got another transfer who would be impactful from Day 1. But that isn't the case. I understand posters frustration with trying to understand who Obi really is.

I had greater expectations for Sean, which he may yet start to fulfill. He had a year of PT and a year of practice against some very good team mates. He seems to be a step slow perhaps because the game played at high level Div I is exposing his lack of quickness. The problem for him is that Chase moves better than Sean and even Vrank, who has both height and mass, seems to move more fluidly. Clearly Jeter and Vrank as lacking in experience and will take most of this season to move ahead. If Sean is to make an impact at Duke it needs to be this year since Giles, Jeter and Vrank will all be here next year and will be the two sophomores will be far better.

[Edouble]

I had greater expectations for Sean, which he may yet start to fulfill. He had a year of PT and a year of practice against some very good team mates. He seems to be a step slow perhaps because the game played at high level Div I is exposing his lack of quickness. The problem for him is that Chase moves better than Sean and even Vrank, who has both height and mass, seems to move more fluidly. Clearly Jeter and Vrank as lacking in experience and will take most of this season to move ahead. If Sean is to make an impact at Duke it needs to be this year since Giles, Jeter and Vrank will all be here next year and will be the two sophomores will be far better.

I disagree.

You never really know.

There were several years when I thought guys like Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston, and David McClure would have no chance to get PT, yet they did. They like to tell the story on the front page that in the mid-90s, Coach K addressed the team and told them that there was playing time available for a guy that wanted to play defense and rebound. It seems like this is the case in many years at Duke.

If Obi can rebound like he did at Rice and protect the paint, he will play, not matter who else is ahead of him.

[OldPhiKap]

I disagree.

You never really know.

There were several years when I thought guys like Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston, and David McClure would have no chance to get PT, yet they did. They like to tell the story on the front page that in the mid-90s, Coach K addressed the team and told them that there was playing time available for a guy that wanted to play defense and rebound. It seems like this is the case in many years at Duke.

If Obi can rebound like he did at Rice and protect the paint, he will play, not matter who else is ahead of him.

Agree with this. Let hm run his own race.

[Saratoga2]

I disagree.

You never really know.

There were several years when I thought guys like Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston, and David McClure would have no chance to get PT, yet they did. They like to tell the story on the front page that in the mid-90s, Coach K addressed the team and told them that there was playing time available for a guy that wanted to play defense and rebound. It seems like this is the case in many years at Duke.

If Obi can rebound like he did at Rice and protect the paint, he will play, not matter who else is ahead of him.

I hope so as he is a physically strong guy with good size. Someone we may need going forward. The story run which totally missed him in the discussion was a mistake on someones part.

[BD80]

... The story run which totally missed him in the discussion was a mistake on someones part.

Or was it a clever motivational ploy?

[Albert]

Ubi Obi. /Latin. Thank you.

[johnb]

I can't remember any recruited player who didn't play a significant role during their senior year. Maybe he'll decide that senior year should be at another college, but I see no reason that he won't play be a real player for us.

[freshmanjs]

I can't remember any recruited player who didn't play a significant role during their senior year. Maybe he'll decide that senior year should be at another college, but I see no reason that he won't play be a real player for us.

there have been examples. Marty P is one.

[Lar77]

The sample size on Obi is painfully small. The 30 some seconds (?) he's been in competition, he looked unsure on defense (resulting in slow footedness and fouls), but he also seemed to have a sense of positioning for rebounds (I think he got one and the others bounced elsewhere). Nevertheless, I think he may be able to contribute at some point this season or the next. By all reports, his attitude seems good and he works hard. That may not be enough, but if he can contribute, that will help against some of the bruiser teams we will face.

[Ichabod Drain]

there have been examples. Marty P is one.

Josh Hairston is another.

[freshmanjs]

Josh Hairston is another.

Hairston did play an important role his senior year (and was a starter for much of the year)

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I can't remember any recruited player who didn't play a significant role during their senior year. Maybe he'll decide that senior year should be at another college, but I see no reason that he won't play be a real player for us.

Tony Moore (I think he might have left the team mid-season), Carmen Wallace, Matt Christensen, Nick Horvath, Clay Buckley, Ricky Price (played a lot early in his career, almost zero his senior year)

[Jeffrey]

Ricky Price (played a lot early in his career, almost zero his senior year)

Very disappointing, IMO, he had great talent and potential! He made some bad decisions and created his destiny.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Hairston did play an important role his senior year (and was a starter for much of the year)

Hairston played 9.5 minutes his senior year, and that dropped to 6.1 minutes in ACC play. I wouldn't call either of those "an important role".

[jimsumner]

"Significant role" is a nebulous term.

But being a senior is no guarantee of PT. Greg Newton, Ricky Price, Taymon Domzalski and Greg Paulus all ended their Duke careers sitting on the bench as healthy scratches in NCAA-Tournament losses.

Tony Moore flunked out after the first semester of his senior season. Price was academically ineligible for the first semester of his senior season and did not get into K's good graces upon his return. Career reserves like Todd Anderson, Jay Bryan, Weldon Williams, Andre Buckner and Matt Christensen retained that distinction as seniors, Christensen as a rare seventh-year senior.

Nick Horvath played 405 minutes as a junior, 218 as a senior.

K inherited Mike Tissaw. Tissaw played 728 minutes as a sophomore, 46 as a senior.

Like I said, no guarantees.

[duke96]

I can't remember any recruited player who didn't play a significant role during their senior year.

Chris Webber?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Chris Webber?

Ah, so very very technically correct.

[Dukeford]

Chris Webber?

....vs Humphries

Chris vs. Kris

[johnb]

While they didn't star, I'd say that a lot of these guys had quite a bit of pt during their college careers. Some got less as seniors than freshmen. Some were caught as terrific players on awesome teams (eg, Domazalski). Some shot themselves in the foot. Some were projects to begin with and never surged (eg, Christiansen). Some just weren't as good as they'd been touted. No guarantees, but I'd still say that most players progressed into substantive roles at Duke.

[ArtVandelay]

When Obi got in the game last night, I am pretty sure that the color man (I think it was LaPhonso Ellis) mentioned something about the fact that he has been held back by problems with his knees, but didn't elaborate. I may have missed something along the way, because this is the first I've heard of this. The announcer made it sound like a long-term thing as opposed to a recent minor injury, so, if true, that could partially explain his lack of PT. I will say that in what little I've seen of him this year, he doesn't look like he moves particularly well. Maybe he has always moved that way (he is a large, large man after all), but maybe his knees are affecting his mobility? Does anyone have any insights on this?

[szstark]

When Obi got in the game last night, I am pretty sure that the color man (I think it was LaPhonso Ellis) mentioned something about the fact that he has been held back by problems with his knees, but didn't elaborate. I may have missed something along the way, because this is the first I've heard of this. The announcer made it sound like a long-term thing as opposed to a recent minor injury, so, if true, that could partially explain his lack of PT. I will say that in what little I've seen of him this year, he doesn't look like he moves particularly well. Maybe he has always moved that way (he is a large, large man after all), but maybe his knees are affecting his mobility? Does anyone have any insights on this?

Ellis called them "balky" knees. It's the first time I've heard this also. Does anyone have any more information? It certainly would explain a lot.

[Edouble]

When Obi got in the game last night, I am pretty sure that the color man (I think it was LaPhonso Ellis) mentioned something about the fact that he has been held back by problems with his knees, but didn't elaborate. I may have missed something along the way, because this is the first I've heard of this. The announcer made it sound like a long-term thing as opposed to a recent minor injury, so, if true, that could partially explain his lack of PT. I will say that in what little I've seen of him this year, he doesn't look like he moves particularly well. Maybe he has always moved that way (he is a large, large man after all), but maybe his knees are affecting his mobility? Does anyone have any insights on this?

I also noticed that he really doesn't move well. His running is a bit awkward. I, too, would be interested in knowing more about these knees of his.

[Olympic Fan]

Ellis called them "balky" knees. It's the first time I've heard this also. Does anyone have any more information? It certainly would explain a lot.

It would tie in a lot with Taymon Domzalski.

He was a starter who averaged 21 minutes a game as a freshman in 1996.

The next year, when Duke was hurting for size (especially after K gave up on Newton; that left 6-8 McLeod and 6-6 Carrawell playing the post positions), Domzalski managed just 112 minutes all season and played in 13 games -- due to knee problems. It wasn't regression ... it was injury that diminished his role.

His last two years, Duke added Brand, Burgess and Battier to bolster the frontcourt and that certainly hurt Domzalski's chances. But even in '98 when Brand was hurt, he managed less than 10 minute a game (and only played in 26 of 36 games). Again, he was limited by chronic bad knees.

More of the same as a senior -- with Brand back, having a NPOY season in the post, and Burgess getting 18 minutes a game, Domzalski again managed less than 10 minutes a game (in 30 of 39 games) -- and that was on a team that had more blowout minutes available than any team in Duke history.

That was also the season where Pete Gillen famously quipped, "If Taymon Domzalski was at Virginia, we'd erect a statue to him alongside Thomas Jefferson -- but he can't get off the bench at Duke."

Well, the talent in front of him was a problem, but his bad knees were a bigger reason he slipped into irrelevance.

I admit that I am surprised that Obi has become such a non-factor. I was one of those who thought he would have a small, but clear role this season. Before the season, K did say that Obi had been struggling with knee issues. If those are still a problem, it would explain a lot.

[hallcity]

I hope Jeter will come along but I don't see how Obi can be more ineffective than Jeter was last night. We need another big man stat.

[English]

Ellis called them "balky" knees. It's the first time I've heard this also. Does anyone have any more information? It certainly would explain a lot.

Synonyms, to be sure, but Ellis called them "cranky knees."

[devildeac]

Synonyms, to be sure, but Ellis called them "cranky knees."

Balky, cranky, who cares? Hey, wait, are you folks talking about me? :o

[rocketeli]

maybe that's why he wears those white things on his legs. Sean "Cranky Knees" Obi. I've noticed he doesn't really pivot to run back down court so much as awkwardly turn around and then give a little dig and hitch to start off running, which certainly could support the idea of knee issues.

[Scorp4me]

First off I was one who thought we were giving Jeter too little credit before the start of the season. However, after seeing him particularly last night I hate to say it but he just looks lost. Lots of talent I'm sure and should be able to get it together in the future. But right now looks lost.

So it was disappointing that a kid who has had two years in college and showed some good stuff as a freshmen (even if it was at another school), couldn't get in even up 20+ against an outmatched directional school. So when the announcer mentioned the knee problem it certainly seemed to make sense. And as someone else mentioned he doesn't really turn. He kind of skips into a run up the court.

So here's hoping we have progress from everyone on ever front. Those injured healing. Those inexperienced improving.

[sagegrouse]

I can't remember any recruited player who didn't play a significant role during their senior year. Maybe he'll decide that senior year should be at another college, but I see no reason that he won't play be a real player for us.

Clay Buckley, who was a captain, played only 93 minutes his senior year -- but he got a ring! Clay may have had some back problems, but didn't play that much in any year.

[Eakane]

This is not post-loss grousing. I'm just asking. At 6'9 and 265, and a year+ of practice with the squad, and with Amile out, MPIII in foul trouble, and Jeter ineffective, was the game with the Ute's not an opportunity to see what the kid's got? I'm sure K and the staff have a reason for the DNP, but does anyone know what's up with Obi?

[jimsumner]

This is not post-loss grousing. I'm just asking. At 6'9 and 265, and a year+ of practice with the squad, and with Amile out, MPIII in foul trouble, and Jeter ineffective, was the game with the Ute's not an opportunity to see what the kid's got? I'm sure K and the staff have a reason for the DNP, but does anyone know what's up with Obi?

The head coach doesn't think he's good enough?

We have had threads on Obi. BTW. FWIW.

[Wahoo2000]

The head coach doesn't think he's good enough?

We have had threads on Obi. BTW. FWIW.

How do you guys not fault K more for the frontcourt depth issue? Look, I would personally say he's probably the greatest coach of all time, but NO ONE is above making a mistake. And right now, it seems the failure to either identify or develop 1-2 more quality big men is the ONE thing keeping this team from being a final four favorite and solidly/consistently top 3-4 in the rankings.

You guys are still more than capable of (especially when Amile gets healthy and the freshmen get a little more experienced) making a run in the tourney, but I feel like you're only one good rotation big from being an elite, top 3 type of team all year. I'm just flabbergasted that a coach as great as K "missed" on all of Obi/Jeter/Vrank ("miss" here meaning the ability to contribute THIS year). And even more shocked that no one here or in the media has pointed this out, though coming off a 5th national title will probably make all your little blemishes invisible for at least a season or two.

[OldPhiKap]

How do you guys not fault K more for the frontcourt depth issue? Look, I would personally say he's probably the greatest coach of all time, but NO ONE is above making a mistake. And right now, it seems the failure to either identify or develop 1-2 more quality big men is the ONE thing keeping this team from being a final four favorite and solidly/consistently top 3-4 in the rankings.

You guys are still more than capable of (especially when Amile gets healthy and the freshmen get a little more experienced) making a run in the tourney, but I feel like you're only one good rotation big from being an elite, top 3 type of team all year. I'm just flabbergasted that a coach as great as K "missed" on all of Obi/Jeter/Vrank ("miss" here meaning the ability to contribute THIS year). And even more shocked that no one here or in the media has pointed this out, though coming off a 5th national title will probably make all your little blemishes invisible for at least a season or two.

K has stated that Chase Jeter is the guy that is best able to step up this year, and that's why he is getting the lion's share of the minutes of the non-starters. So, that's our "one"

Brandon is also capable of defending down low, letting us go to a three-guard offense and creating mismatches.

I'm not sure it is a matter of blaming or praising K -- if Obi and Vrank are not ready for major minutes in the coach's estimation at present, the minutes are going to whomever is most likely to get to the finish line this season. Apparently, for now, that's Chase.

I would love to have two big guys getting ready to go in addition to our upperclassmen, but we just don't have them at present. If someone wants to argue that K should have recruited and landed another quality-ready big man in this class or last class, that's one thing. But given what we have, I think K is handling it in the best manner for this team.

Obi and Vrank are projects that should be good solid contributors for our program long-term. Not everyone is ready to be a big contributor their first year. Amile and MP3 did not get off the bench very much their freshmen year IIRC. Everyone runs their own race. I expect that by the time they are both seniors, they may have earned significant playing time and will have the opportunity to be regarded the same way that MP3 and Amile are now.

[OldPhiKap]

K has stated that Chase Jeter is the guy that is best able to step up this year, and that's why he is getting the lion's share of the minutes of the non-starters. So, that's our "one"

Brandon is also capable of defending down low, letting us go to a three-guard offense and creating mismatches.

I'm not sure it is a matter of blaming or praising K -- if Obi and Vrank are not ready for major minutes in the coach's estimation at present, the minutes are going to whomever is most likely to get to the finish line this season. Apparently, for now, that's Chase.

I would love to have two big guys getting ready to go in addition to our upperclassmen, but we just don't have them at present. If someone wants to argue that K should have recruited and landed another quality-ready big man in this class or last class, that's one thing. But given what we have, I think K is handling it in the best manner for this team.

Obi and Vrank are projects that should be good solid contributors for our program long-term. Not everyone is ready to be a big contributor their first year. Amile and MP3 did not get off the bench very much their freshmen year IIRC. Everyone runs their own race. I expect that by the time they are both seniors, they may have earned significant playing time and will have the opportunity to be regarded the same way that MP3 and Amile are now.

Ran out of time to edit:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2013.html

MP3 played a total of 50 minutes his entire freshman year (fellow freshman Alex Murphy, by comparison, played about four times as many that year; Jeter has about 82 minutes played so far this year already). Now we consider MP3 to be a qualified veteran. Each runs his own race, and big men typically develop slower than guards.

[Owen Meany]

How do you guys not fault K more for the frontcourt depth issue? Look, I would personally say he's probably the greatest coach of all time, but NO ONE is above making a mistake. And right now, it seems the failure to either identify or develop 1-2 more quality big men is the ONE thing keeping this team from being a final four favorite and solidly/consistently top 3-4 in the rankings.

You guys are still more than capable of (especially when Amile gets healthy and the freshmen get a little more experienced) making a run in the tourney, but I feel like you're only one good rotation big from being an elite, top 3 type of team all year. I'm just flabbergasted that a coach as great as K "missed" on all of Obi/Jeter/Vrank ("miss" here meaning the ability to contribute THIS year). And even more shocked that no one here or in the media has pointed this out, though coming off a 5th national title will probably make all your little blemishes invisible for at least a season or two.


I think K isn't getting more criticism because people realize that most teams could ill-afford to lose a senior leader like Amile Jefferson. Its just bad luck. Would K and company like to have more front court depth? Of course. But that is easier said than done. Even though Coach K is at the top of his profession, he still isn't able to choose any player he wants. Duke recruited Swannigan last year, but was unable to convince him to come to Durham. If he had come to Duke things would be very different right now.

Vrank was a surprise signee for Duke who was never expected to contribute this year - hardly a miss by Coach K. He was an insurance recruit, who's contributions will, most likely, take place in practices for the foreseeable future. And in no way, shape or form am I downplaying the importance of practice players (particularly big men). Coach K has always chosen to field a smaller roster, and injuries have left Duke unable to field 2 teams of 5 for practice purposes on many occasions in the past.

Obi was a player who I had never even heard of before he decided to transfer to Duke. I thought he was a very good transfer for a team that would need practice depth and, hopefully, upperclassman leadership his junior and senior years. Its possible that he was misjudged by the coaching staff, but I think its likely they saw a big-bodied, high-character kid who had proven he could handle academics and was a good use of one of the extra scholarships Duke regularly holds. Again, I think any on the court contributions from Obi would come farther down the line.

Chase Jeter is a freshman who is 11 games into his career. Although it would be nice for him to be farther along, I think it is extremely early to call him a "miss". So I think Coach K isn't being criticized more because this situation was largely out of his hands. Its difficult to recruit good players to a team that has great players. That makes it difficult to build depth. Transfers such as Gbinijie and Semi further exacerbate this.

Also, being the GOAT and the defending national champion also gives Coach K the benefit of the doubt in many people's minds. Coach K has always carried a less-than-full roster and depended heavily on a core group of guys. The upsides are obvious - his system has worked pretty well for him. The downside is that Duke is susceptible to being left in a difficult position due to unexpected injuries or departures. But Coach K has done a great job of adapting in the past. It was "over" when Boozer went down - but Duke went on to win the national championship. Many thought it was over last year when Rasheed was dismissed - but Duke did OK. So it will be interesting to see how things turn out.

[Wahoo2000]

K has stated that Chase Jeter is the guy that is best able to step up this year, and that's why he is getting the lion's share of the minutes of the non-starters. So, that's our "one"

Brandon is also capable of defending down low, letting us go to a three-guard offense and creating mismatches.

I'm not sure it is a matter of blaming or praising K -- if Obi and Vrank are not ready for major minutes in the coach's estimation at present, the minutes are going to whomever is most likely to get to the finish line this season. Apparently, for now, that's Chase.

I would love to have two big guys getting ready to go in addition to our upperclassmen, but we just don't have them at present. If someone wants to argue that K should have recruited and landed another quality-ready big man in this class or last class, that's one thing. But given what we have, I think K is handling it in the best manner for this team.

Obi and Vrank are projects that should be good solid contributors for our program long-term. Not everyone is ready to be a big contributor their first year. Amile and MP3 did not get off the bench very much their freshmen year IIRC. Everyone runs their own race. I expect that by the time they are both seniors, they may have earned significant playing time and will have the opportunity to be regarded the same way that MP3 and Amile are now.

This is pretty much what I'm saying. And moreso, surprised that more people here (and in media) haven't pointed out the same. You could also add not developing Obi enough over a redshirt year to be able to at least log a few minutes. Additionally, I don't really see Jeter playing 5-7 mpg when you're in the biggest bind imaginable as being a REAL "part of the rotation".

[OldPhiKap]

This is pretty much what I'm saying. And moreso, surprised that more people here (and in media) haven't pointed out the same. You could also add not developing Obi enough over a redshirt year to be able to at least log a few minutes. Additionally, I don't really see Jeter playing 5-7 mpg when you're in the biggest bind imaginable as being a REAL "part of the rotation".

I think you raise a valid point. As Owen lays out, though, it's not like K did not try to recruit another ready to go big man. And it's hard for me to come down too hard on K for any poor recruiting because he missed on that one; we've been on as strong a recruiting tear over the last few years as anyone has been lately.

As for Obi, I don't know what the deal is but obviously he is not beating Chase out for the minutes at present. And as I noted above, Chase already has more minutes this season than MP3 had his entire freshman year. His time will come, as will Obi's.

[Wahoo2000]

I think you raise a valid point. As Owen lays out, though, it's not like K did not try to recruit another ready to go big man. And it's hard for me to come down too hard on K for any poor recruiting because he missed on that one; we've been on as strong a recruiting tear over the last few years as anyone has been lately.

As for Obi, I don't know what the deal is but obviously he is not beating Chase out for the minutes at present. And as I noted above, Chase already has more minutes this season than MP3 had his entire freshman year. His time will come, as will Obi's.

That's a little bit apples to oranges. You'd have to imagine there was no Jefferson or Hairston on the roster, and still assume Kelly gets injured. I think it speaks to how far Jeter has to go that he can't even break double digit minutes when there's literally only one true big man on the roster logging any PT ahead of him.

As to being critical of K, I agree. This is a pretty small deal - like complaining if your supermodel girlfriend gets a pimple.

[CDu]

I think you raise a valid point. As Owen lays out, though, it's not like K did not try to recruit another ready to go big man. And it's hard for me to come down too hard on K for any poor recruiting because he missed on that one; we've been on as strong a recruiting tear over the last few years as anyone has been lately.

As for Obi, I don't know what the deal is but obviously he is not beating Chase out for the minutes at present. And as I noted above, Chase already has more minutes this season than MP3 had his entire freshman year. His time will come, as will Obi's.

And remember that those 50 minutes were in Plumlee's second year at Duke. Jeter is playing as a frosh.

As has been mentioned, Coach K did recruit Swanigan heavily, but he went to Purdue instead. After that, he recruited Vrankovic. But the hope was that Jefferson and Plumlee would be healthy and effective and the combo of Jeter and Obi would fill in the backup minutes as necessary.

Basically, it was just bad timing to have a down year in terms of recruits (Jeter was among the best bigs available after all) the year after losing a generational talent at center. Combined with the lack of development of Plumlee, and here we are.

But I don't know that it is so much a "fault" of Coach K. He tried to get another big, but that big decided to go elsewhere. At that point, you're sort of stuck with what you have.

It does concern me that Plumlee has not developed into a more productive and dependable player. It does concern me that Obi doesn't appear to fit into the team's plans in the near future despite spending a year in the program and despite having a fairly productive freshman year before that. I don't know that those are necessarily faults of the coaching staff or just bad fortune. In the case of Plumlee, he chose to spend a good chunk of his summer in army boot camp rather than working on his game. That's not a complaint about Plumlee - he knew his career path wasn't going to be the NBA, and he clearly had the support of his coaches. But doing that probably didn't help him any on the court this year. For whatever reason, Obi hasn't worked out. And one shouldn't fault Jeter for not being ready - it was a weak recruiting class, so it's not unreasonable for him to struggle.

Ultimately, we are where we are. Obi isn't likely to contribute this year (heck, considering that he's essentially a junior in college, one has to wonder if he'll ever be a factor). Plumlee isn't likely to be much more than a role player. Jeter may or may not be ready as the season progresses. So we're probably going to have to hope Jefferson comes back soon enough to make a difference, because his replacement probably isn't on the roster right now.

[Troublemaker]

Additionally, I don't really see Jeter playing 5-7 mpg when you're in the biggest bind imaginable as being a REAL "part of the rotation".

It's not even Christmas yet, so the ship has certainly not sailed on Jeter becoming a meaningful contributor to the rotation.

For Duke fans, we can point to Ingram's improvement over the first couple months of the season. Brandon seemed to, overnight, go from "average college player" to "player deserving of being a top-2 pick in the NBA draft."

For freshmen like Ingram and Jeter, improvement doesn't have to be gradual. They can just finally adjust to the speed of the game and have things click into place for them as to how they can use their talents at this level.

Keep giving Chase time out there, and he may eventually make a similar jump from "iffy rotational player" to "reliable 10-15 mpg big man."

Let's give it up time before grading players or coaches.

(I'm willing to give MP3 the benefit of the doubt, too. I think he's capable of giving more than he's given these past couple of games.)

[jv001]

And remember that those 50 minutes were in Plumlee's second year at Duke. Jeter is playing as a frosh.

As has been mentioned, Coach K did recruit Swanigan heavily, but he went to Purdue instead. After that, he recruited Vrankovic. But the hope was that Jefferson and Plumlee would be healthy and effective and the combo of Jeter and Obi would fill in the backup minutes as necessary.

Basically, it was just bad timing to have a down year in terms of recruits (Jeter was among the best bigs available after all) the year after losing a generational talent at center. Combined with the lack of development of Plumlee, and here we are.

But I don't know that it is so much a "fault" of Coach K. He tried to get another big, but that big decided to go elsewhere. At that point, you're sort of stuck with what you have.

It does concern me that Plumlee has not developed into a more productive and dependable player. It does concern me that Obi doesn't appear to fit into the team's plans in the near future despite spending a year in the program and despite having a fairly productive freshman year before that. I don't know that those are necessarily faults of the coaching staff or just bad fortune. In the case of Plumlee, he chose to spend a good chunk of his summer in army boot camp rather than working on his game. That's not a complaint about Plumlee - he knew his career path wasn't going to be the NBA, and he clearly had the support of his coaches. But doing that probably didn't help him any on the court this year. For whatever reason, Obi hasn't worked out. And one shouldn't fault Jeter for not being ready - it was a weak recruiting class, so it's not unreasonable for him to struggle.

Ultimately, we are where we are. Obi isn't likely to contribute this year (heck, considering that he's essentially a junior in college, one has to wonder if he'll ever be a factor). Plumlee isn't likely to be much more than a role player. Jeter may or may not be ready as the season progresses. So we're probably going to have to hope Jefferson comes back soon enough to make a difference, because his replacement probably isn't on the roster right now.

Great post, sorry I couldn't spork you, must spread more around. I agree that last year's senior high school class was a weak one, especially for big men. As for MPIII, I believe he would have been a good role player along side of Amile. But with Amile out, he is not going to be a big help to the team. Now, if he could stay out of foul trouble, his rebounding and defense will certainly help. However Marshall is never going to be a big help on offense, other than offensive rebounds. GoDuke!

[cspan37421]

Clearly, we need an ADA-based petition to request that Amile be allowed to play in a wheelchair, one large enough to enable his reach to be at least what it would be on his feet. We'll see who wants to jump into the defender with him sporting that kind of hardware. ;)

[kcduke75]

A rebound machine

[OldPhiKap]

A rebound machine

"Obeast"

[CameronBornAndBred]

A rebound machine


"Obeast"
Only when he wasn't Obenched. ;)

Cool to see him out there and pulling them down.

[COYS]

How do you guys not fault K more for the frontcourt depth issue? Look, I would personally say he's probably the greatest coach of all time, but NO ONE is above making a mistake. And right now, it seems the failure to either identify or develop 1-2 more quality big men is the ONE thing keeping this team from being a final four favorite and solidly/consistently top 3-4 in the rankings.

You guys are still more than capable of (especially when Amile gets healthy and the freshmen get a little more experienced) making a run in the tourney, but I feel like you're only one good rotation big from being an elite, top 3 type of team all year. I'm just flabbergasted that a coach as great as K "missed" on all of Obi/Jeter/Vrank ("miss" here meaning the ability to contribute THIS year). And even more shocked that no one here or in the media has pointed this out, though coming off a 5th national title will probably make all your little blemishes invisible for at least a season or two.

We've been over this before, but considering that there was a very good chance that both Justise Winslow and Semi Ojele would both be on the roster this year and both be fully capable of earning minutes in the post, it seems silly to think it even really possible to plan perfectly for this year, especially considering Jeter and Vrank were also committed. This year's team is thin in the post in large part because of how successful K was last year. He recognized that semi still wasn't quite ready to contribute and that the team was better featuring Justise. The result was that Semi transferred, Justise played his way into OAD status, and the team won a title. In the meantime, K clearly widened the net as wide as possible to provide cover for this season, but the 2015 class was weaker and it's not like Duke can just pick kids out of high school. They have to actually commit. They have to get along with the staff and the players. The staff has to feel comfortable with the recruit. They have to meet academic requirements, etc.

With a healthy Amile, Duke is an elite team and a possible Final Four threat the YEAR AFTER winning a title and losing four out of the five starters, another key player to dismissal, and a key player for depth to transfer. I'm sorry, it seems absurd to say that K made some sort of error because he couldn't magically conjur a post player capable of immediate contribution who wanted to come to Duke and was also a good fit with the program during a year that the freshman class was weaker and Duke had so much roster turnover.

Yeah, I'd love it if Chase, Obi, and Vrank were more ready. But then again, it would have been great if Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, and Jon Scheyer were more ready their freshman years. They ran their own race and went out with a title. I'm totally cool with Duke winning the title last year and letting our guys run their own race. Maybe they rise to the occasion, maybe they don't. Their stories will not be written this year, either way.

[wilko]

I'm willing to give MP3 the benefit of the doubt, too. I think he's capable of giving more than he's given these past couple of games.

I think he has the highest career 3pt% among actives on the team...
I'm not giving up on him either, but I think I can see the ceiling..

[OldPhiKap]

Brian Zoubek essentially had a six week span of his career where he just played out of his mind. And timed it right. And was the final piece of the puzzle.

MP3 has a role, and an important one at that. If he can execute it at berzerker level from mid-February through his final game, I'll be happy. I'd say that MP3 is already playing at a higher "normal" level than Zoubek did before Z took off. (MP3 averaging 6.1 ppg and 7.0 rpg so far this year, as opposed to Z's 5.5 ppg and 7.5 rpg his senior year. Yeah, not apples to apples and not sure if last night's games are in MP3's stats or not but I think the point generally stands -- Z was not markedly better than MP3 at this point in his senior year, and arguably is being outperformed by MP3. This does not include MP3's leadership which K has referenced again and again as a strength of the team in whole).

Be big in the post, block out, get the boards, kick-out the rebounds. Stay after it, big fella!

[SoCalDukeFan]

Does anyone know if Sean has knee problems or not? I can not get over how a guy who had a very good frosh year at Rice can not get off the bench for a team that needs help in the front court.

Thanks
SoCal

[cato]

Does anyone know if Sean has knee problems or not? I can not get over how a guy who had a very good frosh year at Rice can not get off the bench for a team that needs help in the front court.

Thanks
SoCal

I cannot understand how it possibly matters.

[yancem]

Does anyone know if Sean has knee problems or not? I can not get over how a guy who had a very good frosh year at Rice can not get off the bench for a team that needs help in the front court.

Thanks
SoCal

I don't have any specific details but I have read in a couple of places that he has had some nagging injury issues. One source said knees and another said back. I'm guessing is bad enough to limit him but not serious enough to have to sit out completely which with Duke, you're not going to hear much of anything.

[westwall]

Does anyone know if Sean has knee problems or not? I can not get over how a guy who had a very good frosh year at Rice can not get off the bench for a team that needs help in the front court. Thanks SoCal


I don't know whether Obi has knee problems or not, but based on comments I heard at the MBB banquet last Spring, I agree it doesn't matter.

[SlapTheFloor]

I don't know whether Obi has knee problems or not, but based on comments I heard at the MBB banquet last Spring, I agree it doesn't matter.

Care to elaborate or were the comments confidential?