About Utah State and a transfer [Archive]

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 10:17 AM

Here's an article about our opponent on Sunday, Utah State, denying the ability of guy who wants to transfer the right to contact ANY team.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/utah-state-denies-transfer-permission-to-speak-with-any-other-schools-100936787.html

Stuff like this 1) infuriates me on fundamental level and 2) makes me want us to beat them by about a million points.

Well, sounds like a bit of immaturity on both the school and his part. He quits at the most inopportune time, the school acts out by denying him transfer rights and manipulating his bio??? Doesn't make either look good IMO.

Might be a good lesson for him going forward on how to deal with life issues when you don't hold the all the power, it's called tact and discretion. Not saying I support Utah State, but from what I read, it probably could have been handled better by the player.... I mean he just decided to quit now.... or did he wait to do it to spite the program?

Hard to know as an outsider.

BD80

11-25-2015, 10:32 AM

Here's an article about our opponent on Sunday, Utah State, denying the ability of guy who wants to transfer the right to contact ANY team.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/utah-state-denies-transfer-permission-to-speak-with-any-other-schools-100936787.html

Stuff like this 1) infuriates me on fundamental level and 2) makes me want us to beat them by about a million points.

Collette ... received an email the day after he said he was leaving informing him the school was canceling his athletic aid for the remainder of the semester

Wonder if that includes tuition?

A scholarship is renewable on a yearly basis. Collette's biggest problem is that he has already used his redshirt year. If he sits out this year and then a transfer year, he'll have only one year left of eligibility. He'd play just 2 seasons in 5 years.

COYS

11-25-2015, 11:09 AM

Well, sounds like a bit of immaturity on both the school and his part. He quits at the most inopportune time, the school acts out by denying him transfer rights and manipulating his bio??? Doesn't make either look good IMO.

Might be a good lesson for him going forward on how to deal with life issues when you don't hold the all the power, it's called tact and discretion. Not saying I support Utah State, but from what I read, it probably could have been handled better by the player... I mean he just decided to quit now... or did he wait to do it to spite the program?

Hard to know as an outsider.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this. For one, I thought Collette handled himself pretty well. The coach he signed up to play for left the program in the spring. He spoke to the coaches about some of the things that were bothering him throughout the summer. They were dismissive of his concerns. He decided he didn't want to play there, anymore, because he felt the environment had become toxic for him. Given the ridiculous way in which the school responded, he was clearly right about that toxic environment. Also, Collette ultimately suffers the most by waiting so long to announce his desire to transfer because he didn't have the summer to look for new programs. Perhaps he could have given the coaches more lead time, but he also probably thought they would address some of the issues he had raised. His quotes to the media in the article were perfectly tactful, especially since he only made any issues public after the school decided to disproportionately wield its power by cancelling his aid AND denying him the ability to transfer to another school. Plus, even if he shoulders a little blame for not handling the situation well, the retaliation on the part of the institution FAR outweighs his transgression of waiting before transferring. Besides, we're talking about an institution supposedly run by adults coming down ridiculously hard on a KID. A quiet conversation saying "hey, you left us hanging here. Maybe next time you might want to handle this differently" before letting the kid go on his way would have sufficed.

This is something that I always have appreciated about the way Coach K conducts himself. I bet there have been uglier transfers out of Duke's program in which it is possible that K could have had more justification for being vindictive. Yet we've never seen that. Heck, Gbinije transferred to Syracuse even when we knew that Syracuse was going to join the ACC. Usually transfers within conferences are banned.

Anyway, I think it is a false equivalency to say that both parties are equally at fault. Even if Collette handled the situation poorly (and, from the article, he really doesn't appear to have done anything too egregious), the vindictive response from the institution is excessive and completely ruins any moral high ground they might have had.

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 11:14 AM

Collette ... received an email the day after he said he was leaving informing him the school was canceling his athletic aid for the remainder of the semester

Wonder if that includes tuition?

A scholarship is renewable on a yearly basis. Collette's biggest problem is that he has already used his redshirt year. If he sits out this year and then a transfer year, he'll have only one year left of eligibility. He'd play just 2 seasons in 5 years.

Good points. The kid in this situation maybe was getting bad advice or maybe is just prone to impulse, but he clearly didn't think it all the way through... the issues he claims drove him away seem trivial to me... he was "offended" by a coaches comment during practice... good grief, I was "offended" and occasionally "assaulted" during practices in HS on a daily basis then he was "offended" by being told to keep a team incident within the locker room?? Sounds like he had a personality conflict with a coach.... not unheard of exactly is it? Hey some coaches are idiots! Why let what an idiot says hurt you so deeply? Process it for what it is and learn from it.

Sounds like he might need to realize that things don't always break your way in life and you can choose how to respond when they don't..... he chose to walkout without due notice on a team that was counting on him... ok, perfectly within your right to do so, but realize that every decision you make in life has a consequence.

So young fella, it's now time to deal with the fallout of your decision....

sagegrouse

11-25-2015, 11:16 AM

Just to stir the pot..... I can make a case that the coach and school were justified in their actions. I mean, he quit the team two days before the start of the season, letting down his teammates and everyone involved with the Utah State program. Moreover, he was third-team all conference last year. Strangely, this isn't just a kid just jumping ship; his wife is a full-time student there as well.

Now, what's gonna happen? I predict that this harsh punishment will be lifted at the end of the semester, and David Collette will be free to go where he wants. Lesson taught -- lesson learned.

dyedwab

11-25-2015, 11:21 AM

InSpades

11-25-2015, 11:36 AM

COYS

11-25-2015, 11:42 AM

Just to stir the pot... I can make a case that the coach and school were justified in their actions. I mean, he quit the team two days before the start of the season, letting down his teammates and everyone involved with the Utah State program. Moreover, he was third-team all conference last year. Strangely, this isn't just a kid just jumping ship; his wife is a full-time student there as well.

Now, what's gonna happen? I predict that this harsh punishment will be lifted at the end of the semester, and David Collette will be free to go where he wants. Lesson taught -- lesson learned.

Sagegrouse and OldNavy, I always admire your insight and wisdom in your posts. Still, i think you are unfairly assuming that the environment around the team wasn't toxic for Collette and putting too much emphasis on the need for Collette to be loyal to the team while failing to emphasize that the institution should be loyal to its players as individuals and not just as basketball players. Perhaps my sympathy for Collette comes from my own experience. As a senior in high school, I was the projected starting shooting guard and leading returning scorer for my high school team. We had two new students who were sensational basketball players who also enrolled at the school who were both super talented. Combined, we were actually ranked in the top five in the state (though, mind you, I played in a ridiculously tiny league in GA . . . none of us would have sniffed the starting lineup at a bigger school . . . I probably wouldn't have even made the team). However, I was a two sport athlete at the time (basketball and baseball) and loved baseball a little bit more. In addition, I was taking college courses on top of my high school curriculum, preparing my college applications, working a part time job and volunteering three days a week. As basketball season approached, I dreaded it because I wasn't sure how I was going to handle it. Finally, I realized that all the other things I was doing were more important to me, my heart wasn't really in playing basketball, and I needed to quit. I only came to realize this the day before practice started after agonizing over the decision. I called a meeting with my coach and then the team and announced my decision. It was incredibly difficult for me. My best friend was actually the backup shooting guard on the team and I felt like I was punching him in gut. I could have become a pariah. The coach could have complained that if he had known about my choice earlier, he could have recruited a replacement for me (of course, I didn't know about my decision any earlier, either).

Instead, both the team and the coach responded graciously. They understood that it was a hard decision for me, even if I announced it late. They also understood that it was the best decision for the team, too. What's the point of investing playing time in a guy who doesn't really want to be there? To this day I still appreciate their reaction. I get that high school isn't as high stakes as college. But my decision very well could have cost the team a deep playoff run. They ended up having a very good season that fell short of greatness in large part because of a lack of depth. I was a good defender and my replacement wasn't as solid on the defensive end. He got into foul trouble and an opposing guard torched him in the early rounds of the playoffs, knocking them out. I know that if I had been committed and willing, I could have made a big difference. But I had to make the best decision for me. From the outside looking in, it might seem like I rashly up and quit on my team. But in reality it was a hard decision that I wrestled with for a long, long time.

Collette seems very invested in Utah State. As mentioned before, his wife is a full time student, there. I think it is presumptuous to assume that he made a rash decision. He's playing organized, high level basketball for probably the last time in his life. He deserves to play in a program he feels comfortable with. None of us know just how toxic the environment was for him. Even if it the staff's actions never went beyond something that we would feel comfortable with, it is unfair for us to assume that he should feel comfortable with it, too. The administration could have taught him a lesson in a far less vindictive way. I think the kids should be given the benefit of the doubt more often in these situations and that the burden should be on the institutions to act with understanding, even if the coaching staff and other members of the institution disagree with the kid's decision or his/her reasons behind the decision.

kmspeaks

11-25-2015, 11:44 AM

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this. For one, I thought Collette handled himself pretty well. The coach he signed up to play for left the program in the spring. He spoke to the coaches about some of the things that were bothering him throughout the summer. They were dismissive of his concerns. He decided he didn't want to play there, anymore, because he felt the environment had become toxic for him. Given the ridiculous way in which the school responded, he was clearly right about that toxic environment. Also, Collette ultimately suffers the most by waiting so long to announce his desire to transfer because he didn't have the summer to look for new programs. Perhaps he could have given the coaches more lead time, but he also probably thought they would address some of the issues he had raised. His quotes to the media in the article were perfectly tactful, especially since he only made any issues public after the school decided to disproportionately wield its power by cancelling his aid AND denying him the ability to transfer to another school. Plus, even if he shoulders a little blame for not handling the situation well, the retaliation on the part of the institution FAR outweighs his transgression of waiting before transferring. Besides, we're talking about an institution supposedly run by adults coming down ridiculously hard on a KID. A quiet conversation saying "hey, you left us hanging here. Maybe next time you might want to handle this differently" before letting the kid go on his way would have sufficed.

This is something that I always have appreciated about the way Coach K conducts himself. I bet there have been uglier transfers out of Duke's program in which it is possible that K could have had more justification for being vindictive. Yet we've never seen that. Heck, Gbinije transferred to Syracuse even when we knew that Syracuse was going to join the ACC. Usually transfers within conferences are banned.

Anyway, I think it is a false equivalency to say that both parties are equally at fault. Even if Collette handled the situation poorly (and, from the article, he really doesn't appear to have done anything too egregious), the vindictive response from the institution is excessive and completely ruins any moral high ground they might have had.

Assuming he doesn't have an unusually late or early birthday relative to his graduation year that "kid" is 22 or 23 and married, with the added life experience of spending 2 years on a mission on the other side of the country. Have we decided to wait until people are 30 with a house and 2 kids before we consider them adults capable of good decisions? I'm with OldNavy on this one, both parties come off looking bad. We'll never know the whole story because the school can't, and shouldn't, give details so we only have what Collette is willing to share but bailing on his teammates 2 days before the season starts is not a good move. I understand wanting to leave a bad situation, I transferred after my sophomore year when recruiting visit coach didn't line up with every day at practice coach, but there's a right and wrong way to leave and regardless of the school's response Collette did it wrong.

kmspeaks

11-25-2015, 11:49 AM

Sagegrouse and OldNavy, I always admire your insight and wisdom in your posts. Still, i think you are unfairly assuming that the environment around the team wasn't toxic for Collette and putting too much emphasis on the need for Collette to be loyal to the team while failing to emphasize that the institution should be loyal to its players as individuals and not just as basketball players. Perhaps my sympathy for Collette comes from my own experience. As a senior in high school, I was the projected starting shooting guard and leading returning scorer for my high school team. We had two new students who were sensational basketball players who also enrolled at the school who were both super talented. Combined, we were actually ranked in the top five in the state (though, mind you, I played in a ridiculously tiny league in GA . . . none of us would have sniffed the starting lineup at a bigger school . . . I probably wouldn't have even made the team). However, I was a two sport athlete at the time (basketball and baseball) and loved baseball a little bit more. In addition, I was taking college courses on top of my high school curriculum, preparing my college applications, working a part time job and volunteering three days a week. As basketball season approached, I dreaded it because I wasn't sure how I was going to handle it. Finally, I realized that all the other things I was doing were more important to me, my heart wasn't really in playing basketball, and I needed to quit. I only came to realize this the day before practice started after agonizing over the decision. I called a meeting with my coach and then the team and announced my decision. It was incredibly difficult for me. My best friend was actually the backup shooting guard on the team and I felt like I was punching him in gut. I could have become a pariah. The coach could have complained that if he had known about my choice earlier, he could have recruited a replacement for me (of course, I didn't know about my decision any earlier, either).

Instead, both the team and the coach responded graciously. They understood that it was a hard decision for me, even if I announced it late. They also understood that it was the best decision for the team, too. What's the point of investing playing time in a guy who doesn't really want to be there? To this day I still appreciate their reaction. I get that high school isn't as high stakes as college. But my decision very well could have cost the team a deep playoff run. They ended up having a very good season that fell short of greatness in large part because of a lack of depth. I was a good defender and my replacement wasn't as solid on the defensive end. He got into foul trouble and an opposing guard torched him in the early rounds of the playoffs, knocking them out. I know that if I had been committed and willing, I could have made a big difference. But I had to make the best decision for me. From the outside looking in, it might seem like I rashly up and quit on my team. But in reality it was a hard decision that I wrestled with for a long, long time.

Collette seems very invested in Utah State. As mentioned before, his wife is a full time student, there. I think it is presumptuous to assume that he made a rash decision. He's playing organized, high level basketball for probably the last time in his life. He deserves to play in a program he feels comfortable with. None of us know just how toxic the environment was for him. Even if it the staff's actions never went beyond something that we would feel comfortable with, it is unfair for us to assume that he should feel comfortable with it, too. The administration could have taught him a lesson in a far less vindictive way. I think the kids should be given the benefit of the doubt more often in these situations and that the burden should be on the institutions to act with understanding, even if the coaching staff and other members of the institution disagree with the kid's decision or his/her reasons behind the decision.

The difference between your example and Collette is not just high school to college. It's that you made the decision before the season. You didn't try out, make the team, practice for awhile, and then decide before the 1st game you couldn't handle it. If he wanted to leave he should have done so in June, July, August, or even September, not after a month of practice.

COYS

11-25-2015, 11:54 AM

Assuming he doesn't have an unusually late or early birthday relative to his graduation year that "kid" is 22 or 23 and married, with the added life experience of spending 2 years on a mission on the other side of the country. Have we decided to wait until people are 30 with a house and 2 kids before we consider them adults capable of good decisions? I'm with OldNavy on this one, both parties come off looking bad. We'll never know the whole story because the school can't, and shouldn't, give details so we only have what Collette is willing to share but bailing on his teammates 2 days before the season starts is not a good move. I understand wanting to leave a bad situation, I transferred after my sophomore year when recruiting visit coach didn't line up with every day at practice coach, but there's a right and wrong way to leave and regardless of the school's response Collette did it wrong.

Again, I'll repeat what I mentioned in an earlier post. Just because he decided late doesn't mean that it was rash and doesn't mean it was wrong. In fact, it might mean that he was very much committed to Utah State and, because of that, took longer to realize that he needed to move on, just as it took me a long time to realize I shouldn't play for my high school team during my senior year because I felt so much loyalty to the team and my friends. Just as you say, we don't know all the details. However, the school has done the equivalent of suspending him from playing basketball for at least a semester and possibly for a whole year. Think about that. Think about the number of athletes who get a DUI and miss two games or get arrested for assault and are back on the court in four games. It seems like a disproportionate punishment, to me.

I guess my main argument really has two points. 1) Just because he left the program late doesn't mean it wasn't an agonizingly difficult choice and it is presumptuous for us to assume it is. 2) The "punishment" far outweighs the crime (assuming there is a crime). Collette knows he'll have to sit out a year to transfer, so it's not like he is unaware that his decision will have consequences. That the institution could cost him an additional year of eligibility in order to teach a lesson that we can't even be certain needs teaching seems like a gross imbalance of power.

DUKIE V(A)

11-25-2015, 11:54 AM

I deeply I disagree with the this analysis. We can debate whether the school holds too much power over transfers or not (IMHO, they do, and it's not a close call) but, as COYS said, the absolute over-reaction by the school and the coaching staff suggest that his concerns about the program were warranted. Making policy when you are angry never leads to a good look. Utah State's coaches were angry and they let that anger carry over to their policy-making. That's not good.

Agreed. School should take the higher ground and a "next man up" position. Let the kid go for whatever his reasons and roll with the kids who want to be there. WIN-WIN. You play with guys who have full buy in and you allow your former player to head for "greener" pastures.

Side note: If these things actually happened, making reference to shooting oneself in the back of the head, subsequently laughing off someone's request to stop these references, and informing players to cover up an assault are not good signs and do not speak highly of the Head Coach. Many players may not be sensitive to such comments and many players would choose to keep the cheap shot in house, but that does not make those actions right or acceptable.

Ichabod Drain

11-25-2015, 11:58 AM

While I agree both parties are at fault here the university and athletic department have literally nothing to gain from doing this. If you want to restrict him from the conference, fine, but not letting him transfer at all is just childish and petty. So what if he screwed you over, messing up the guys life isn't going to help you in any way.

Maybe they want to discourage kids from transferring in the future but to me it's more discouraging for kids electing to come to your school to play in the first place.

COYS

11-25-2015, 12:00 PM

The difference between your example and Collette is not just high school to college. It's that you made the decision before the season. You didn't try out, make the team, practice for awhile, and then decide before the 1st game you couldn't handle it. If he wanted to leave he should have done so in June, July, August, or even September, not after a month of practice.

You miss my point, though. The fact that he made the decision so late is NOT necessarily evidence that it was rash or childish. Rather, it might actually mean the exact opposite. It very well might mean that he gave a good faith effort to adjust to the new climate of the program only to realize he wanted no part in it. I'm not sure why it is so easy to assume that the timing makes this more likely to be a rash decision. Look, he could be a petulant person who didn't get his way and is taking his ball and going home. But he also could have made an incredibly difficult decision in a bad situation. The timing of the decision IS difficult for the team, but it in no way proves that Collette is more or less deserving of the Utah State's reaction.

kmspeaks

11-25-2015, 12:27 PM

You miss my point, though. The fact that he made the decision so late is NOT necessarily evidence that it was rash or childish. Rather, it might actually mean the exact opposite. It very well might mean that he gave a good faith effort to adjust to the new climate of the program only to realize he wanted no part in it. I'm not sure why it is so easy to assume that the timing makes this more likely to be a rash decision. Look, he could be a petulant person who didn't get his way and is taking his ball and going home. But he also could have made an incredibly difficult decision in a bad situation. The timing of the decision IS difficult for the team, but it in no way proves that Collette is more or less deserving of the Utah State's reaction.

I can appreciate the difficulty of the decision. It's just that I personally believe, and we can certainly agree to disagree here, once you show up for the 1st day of practice you should stick it out until the end of the season. If you want to leave before or after the season then good luck, no hard feelings, but I have an issue with quitting in the middle. At my first college the coach called timeout in the middle of an inning to come out to left field and scream at me about a foul ball that I dropped when I jumped into the fence to try and make the catch. There was no huddle, she told the rest of the team to stay away, so everybody at the field knew exactly what she was doing. Many of my teammates' parents offered to give me a ride back to school if I wanted to quit right there and I probably would have been justified, but I waited until the end of the year.

It may not have been a rash, childish, or even vindictive decision on Collette's part, but it was a selfish one. I hope in all this I haven't come across as trying to defend Utah State. Even if he was being a jerk they should let him go with a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" and move on, but the school's bitter response doesn't absolve him of any responsibility for the way he handled the situation.

bedeviled

11-25-2015, 12:30 PM

Perhaps my sympathy for Collette comes from my own experience...[SNIP]...Instead, both the team and the coach responded graciouslyDo you think your coach would have responded so graciously if you left because you wanted to play basketball for another team?
Doesn't the contract just bar Collette from playing ball for someone else? If, like you, he decided to do other things with his life, we wouldn't be having this discussion. My, perhaps faulty, understanding is that he can transfer to be a student anywhere he pleases. And, after his current year-long contract expires, he can talk to whomever and play for whomever he chooses, right? It seems somewhat akin to non-compete clauses in contracts I sign for work in that I'm barred, for a specified time period, from establishing an office in a region where I would compete with the organization I'm leaving.

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 12:39 PM

You miss my point, though. The fact that he made the decision so late is NOT necessarily evidence that it was rash or childish. Rather, it might actually mean the exact opposite. It very well might mean that he gave a good faith effort to adjust to the new climate of the program only to realize he wanted no part in it. I'm not sure why it is so easy to assume that the timing makes this more likely to be a rash decision. Look, he could be a petulant person who didn't get his way and is taking his ball and going home. But he also could have made an incredibly difficult decision in a bad situation. The timing of the decision IS difficult for the team, but it in no way proves that Collette is more or less deserving of the Utah State's reaction.

And I will agree with you that if I knew the whole story I could very well take the kids side.... But from how the story reads it really doesn't make a great case for either side and the kid comes off sounding whinny IMO.

I think the school could have handled it better for sure, but I am not against the school holding the kid to his commitment given what we know from the one article.

My HS football coach was a complete rectum. He jerked me around so many different ways I lost count. In fact, HE was the reason I didn't play football in college (DII level talent at best (best offer was from WCU), although MG Bobbitt got carried away on a radio broadcast after I made a good play on defense, and claimed I could have played for a school like Duke... which at the time wasn't really a compliment :) ). I couldn't imagine FB being fun at the next level given how hard the coach had tried to make it painful at the lower level.

But I didn't quit the team. For one reason, I am blessed with a thick skin. I am not easily offended by what someone thinks or says about me. Cocky? Maybe I was... but I really didn't value this guys opinion of me, because I saw what he was all about. Second, I had way too much fun playing the game to quit despite his every effort to make it a joyless drudgery.

Not saying the kid wasn't wronged, I am saying that this happens all the time in life and the way you deal with it makes it a positive or a negative. If nothing else, his timing was wrong.... either suck it up for one more year and then transfer or he should have walked after the previous season...

Fair to the kid? Maybe not, but hopefully it will be a good lesson for him on decision making and how to deal with difficult people and situations in the future.

sagegrouse

11-25-2015, 12:41 PM

Sagegrouse and OldNavy, I always admire your insight and wisdom in your posts. Still, i think you are unfairly assuming that the environment around the team wasn't toxic for Collette and putting too much emphasis on the need for Collette to be loyal to the team while failing to emphasize that the institution should be loyal to its players as individuals and not just as basketball players. Perhaps my sympathy for Collette comes from my own experience. As a senior in high school, I was the projected starting shooting guard and leading returning scorer for my high school team. We had two new students who were sensational basketball players who also enrolled at the school who were both super talented. Combined, we were actually ranked in the top five in the state (though, mind you, I played in a ridiculously tiny league in GA . . . none of us would have sniffed the starting lineup at a bigger school . . . I probably wouldn't have even made the team). However, I was a two sport athlete at the time (basketball and baseball) and loved baseball a little bit more. In addition, I was taking college courses on top of my high school curriculum, preparing my college applications, working a part time job and volunteering three days a week. As basketball season approached, I dreaded it because I wasn't sure how I was going to handle it. Finally, I realized that all the other things I was doing were more important to me, my heart wasn't really in playing basketball, and I needed to quit. I only came to realize this the day before practice started after agonizing over the decision. I called a meeting with my coach and then the team and announced my decision. It was incredibly difficult for me. My best friend was actually the backup shooting guard on the team and I felt like I was punching him in gut. I could have become a pariah. The coach could have complained that if he had known about my choice earlier, he could have recruited a replacement for me (of course, I didn't know about my decision any earlier, either).

Instead, both the team and the coach responded graciously. They understood that it was a hard decision for me, even if I announced it late. They also understood that it was the best decision for the team, too. What's the point of investing playing time in a guy who doesn't really want to be there? To this day I still appreciate their reaction. I get that high school isn't as high stakes as college. But my decision very well could have cost the team a deep playoff run. They ended up having a very good season that fell short of greatness in large part because of a lack of depth. I was a good defender and my replacement wasn't as solid on the defensive end. He got into foul trouble and an opposing guard torched him in the early rounds of the playoffs, knocking them out. I know that if I had been committed and willing, I could have made a big difference. But I had to make the best decision for me. From the outside looking in, it might seem like I rashly up and quit on my team. But in reality it was a hard decision that I wrestled with for a long, long time.

Collette seems very invested in Utah State. As mentioned before, his wife is a full time student, there. I think it is presumptuous to assume that he made a rash decision. He's playing organized, high level basketball for probably the last time in his life. He deserves to play in a program he feels comfortable with. None of us know just how toxic the environment was for him. Even if it the staff's actions never went beyond something that we would feel comfortable with, it is unfair for us to assume that he should feel comfortable with it, too. The administration could have taught him a lesson in a far less vindictive way. I think the kids should be given the benefit of the doubt more often in these situations and that the burden should be on the institutions to act with understanding, even if the coaching staff and other members of the institution disagree with the kid's decision or his/her reasons behind the decision.

Good points and well-composed post, COYS.

First, I predicted that these penalties would be temporary and the bans would be lifted at the end of the semester.

Second, college athletics is a business and the student-athletes who participate in it need to understand this. A starter quitting two days before the season begins? Wow, that's big time -- affecting season-ticket holders, press and publicity, team-mates, coaches (who have no expectation of tenure beyond their contracts), student fans, and potential recruits who were not pursued because Collette was there as a starter. The school's actions won't bring Collette back but will serve as a warning at USU and elsewhere to "be a man" (as K would say) and don't throw your team-mates and coaches onto the railroad tracks with the train coming. Make your decision over the summer, or earlier.

We should review the situation in a few months and see how it looks then.

Olympic Fan

11-25-2015, 01:14 PM

Just to say, K's handling of transfers evokes my admiration.

Even the most ridiculous situations, he's handled with grace. Yes, as COYS notes, he allowed Gbinije to go without restrictions, even though he knew we'd be playing Syracuse. I also remember him letting Chris Humphries out of his LOI -- essentially because Humphries and his father demanded certain guarantees about playing time. That happened in the summer, when it was too late for K to recruit a replacement -- he would have been justified in withholding his release, forcing Humphries to sit out a year .. instead, he let him play right away at Minnesota.

Probably the greatest example of K's approach was Elliot Williams. I know the official story was that he wanted to return to Memphis to by near his ailing grandmother. The trouble was that she was ailing when he originally signed with Duke. There was a lot more to it than that -- and again, the decision came late (although K did have time to get Andre Dawkins to reclassify and come in early). But K publically backed the fiction that Williams was leaving to be near his grandmother and supported Williams' appeal to waive the one-year transfer rule (unlike the LOI release, a school can't unilaterally waive the one-year transfer rule).

In the Utah State case, I'm on the player's side. If the school wants to put reasonable restrictions on the kid's options -- no move to a conference opponent or a rival or to a school that you think may have been tampering (hint: Williams=Memphis), that's fine. But to block all transfers, especially after a coaching change ... that's just wrong.

COYS

11-25-2015, 01:34 PM

Good points and well-composed post, COYS.

First, I predicted that these penalties would be temporary and the bans would be lifted at the end of the semester.

Second, college athletics is a business and the student-athletes who participate in it need to understand this. A starter quitting two days before the season begins? Wow, that's big time -- affecting season-ticket holders, press and publicity, team-mates, coaches (who have no expectation of tenure beyond their contracts), student fans, and potential recruits who were not pursued because Collette was there as a starter. The school's actions won't bring Collette back but will serve as a warning at USU and elsewhere to "be a man" (as K would say) and don't throw your team-mates and coaches onto the railroad tracks with the train coming. Make your decision over the summer, or earlier.

We should review the situation in a few months and see how it looks then.

All fair points. We will probably agree to disagree on this one, but I find your position perfectly reasonable. Time might reveal more details . . . that is if anyone in the media cares enough to report it when the situation is resolved.

I do think the harm to the "business" might be slightly overstated considering that the alternative would be to have a malcontent on the team, which does no one any good. This is the approach Coach K has followed by allowing transfers to go to any school, regardless of the circumstances or reasons for the transfer (such as Gbinije going to soon-to-be conference rival Syracuse as mentioned above).

I also find the sucker-punch episode to sound more alarming than others, as well. My middle school basketball coach was a real a-hole to me. In fact, he was fired because he was considered too hard on the kids. Yet he is my favorite coach of all time, and I learned a lot from him. He would have suspended a kid who sucker-punched another kid IMMEDIATELY. The punishment would have fit the crime and would not have been excessive, but there would have been clear disciplinary action taken. Of course, this assumes that the incident was in fact a sucker punch and not a temporary fight that broke out in the middle of a heated practice (even then, if a punch were thrown, my coach would have suspended the kid, although he probably would have also admired his fire). The fact that no disciplinary action appears to have been taken and the event was swept under the rug makes me sympathetic to Collette's perception that the culture of the program wasn't for him. Therefore, I am inclined to be more understanding that he waited until the last minute to announce his choice. How could he transfer in July or August when he had not really had a chance to get a feel for how the new coach would conduct the program (although, admittedly, the coach was a promoted assistant so it wasn't like he was a complete stranger)?

I think in the end if the scenario you outline actually does occur and the transfer ban is lifted so that he can enroll at a new school in January the ultimate outcome will probably be fair to both sides. Still, I don't like the idea that Utah State can hold Collette's fate in the balance for so long.

COYS

11-25-2015, 01:44 PM

And, after his current year-long contract expires, he can talk to whomever and play for whomever he chooses, right? It seems somewhat akin to non-compete clauses in contracts I sign for work in that I'm barred, for a specified time period, from establishing an office in a region where I would compete with the organization I'm leaving.

As Olympic Fan also mentioned in a previous post, I too wouldn't begrudge Utah State's decision to prevent him from going to a rival school or another school in the same conference where he would directly compete with them. I have no problem with that, at all. I think that is akin to a non-compete clause in a contract. However, to prevent him from going anywhere, even schools that won't compete with Utah State except perhaps in the off chance they meet in the NCAAT, seems like a particularly harsh decision. Also, Collette will have to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play. The clock doesn't start ticking until he enrolls at a new school. Utah State will make him sit out for two years if they actually bar him from talking to other coaches until the end of the year. At the very least, they will force him to make a decision about a new school without allowing him the usual time to vet all the suitors and make an informed decision and require him to pay his own way for a semester or potentially a whole year depending on whether or not they release him. If, as Sagegrouse has speculated, they release him at the end of this semester and he can enroll at a new school for the beginning of the Spring term, then there is very little long term harm done. If they release him at the end of the Spring term, he will lose a full year of eligibility but at least he won't have to pay his own way at a new school. If they decide never to release him, then he will have to pay his own way for a year AND lose a year of eligibility. That is an outcome that is well within the rules but also seems excessive to me.

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 01:44 PM

All fair points. We will probably agree to disagree on this one, but I find your position perfectly reasonable. Time might reveal more details . . . that is if anyone in the media cares enough to report it when the situation is resolved.

I do think the harm to the "business" might be slightly overstated considering that the alternative would be to have a malcontent on the team, which does no one any good. This is the approach Coach K has followed by allowing transfers to go to any school, regardless of the circumstances or reasons for the transfer (such as Gbinije going to soon-to-be conference rival Syracuse as mentioned above).

I also find the sucker-punch episode to sound more alarming than others, as well. My middle school basketball coach was a real a-hole to me. In fact, he was fired because he was considered too hard on the kids. Yet he is my favorite coach of all time, and I learned a lot from him. He would have suspended a kid who sucker-punched another kid IMMEDIATELY. The punishment would have fit the crime and would not have been excessive, but there would have been clear disciplinary action taken. Of course, this assumes that the incident was in fact a sucker punch and not a temporary fight that broke out in the middle of a heated practice (even then, if a punch were thrown, my coach would have suspended the kid, although he probably would have also admired his fire). The fact that no disciplinary action appears to have been taken and the event was swept under the rug makes me sympathetic to Collette's perception that the culture of the program wasn't for him. Therefore, I am inclined to be more understanding that he waited until the last minute to announce his choice. How could he transfer in July or August when he had not really had a chance to get a feel for how the new coach would conduct the program (although, admittedly, the coach was a promoted assistant so it wasn't like he was a complete stranger)?

I think in the end if the scenario you outline actually does occur and the transfer ban is lifted so that he can enroll at a new school in January the ultimate outcome will probably be fair to both sides. Still, I don't like the idea that Utah State can hold Collette's fate in the balance for so long.

Agree!

JasonEvans

11-25-2015, 01:59 PM

In the Utah State case, I'm on the player's side. If the school wants to put reasonable restrictions on the kid's options -- no move to a conference opponent or a rival or to a school that you think may have been tampering (hint: Williams=Memphis), that's fine. But to block all transfers, especially after a coaching change ... that's just wrong.

I hate the fact that schools can kill 2 years of eligibility for a kid. It is ridiculous in my mind. The NCAA mandates 1 year for any transfer, and I support that otherwise we would see wholesale free agency every year and even during the season. That would be bad. So, I have no problem with making kids sit one season.

But any time they are forced to sit 2 seasons, I think it is a bit much and is really unfair. As Oly said, if a team wants to restrict intra-conference transfers or transfers to teams that are annual rivals, that is one thing, but keeping the kid from going anywhere, really bad form Utah St.

I hope there is more media attention to this issue and Utah St. backs down ASAP. Let the kid get on with his life.

-Jason "I think there should be a NCAA rule that only allows a school to block transfers from -- I dunno -- 15 or 20 other programs... if you want to block more than that, you can pound sand" Evans

kAzE

11-25-2015, 02:35 PM

Regardless of who is at fault here, I can't possibly imagine Duryea being successful on the recruiting trail going forward. Potential recruits will surely hear about this. Utah State is not going to look like an appealing place to play, and Duryea does not seem like the type of man I'd like to have as a mentor or any type of role model. Both sides have irreversibly damaged their careers (and in the case of Utah State, their entire basketball program) because of a petty dispute. I hope we absolutely destroy them.

Edit: I'd be surprised if the announcers in the Duke/Utah St. game don't mention this. With the wide national audience that Duke game is sure to attract, this is going to blow up. I wouldn't be surprised if Duryea's job is called into question this year. This type of behavior (especially the alleged stuff that happened in practice) is just embarrassing.

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 02:54 PM

I hate the fact that schools can kill 2 years of eligibility for a kid. It is ridiculous in my mind. The NCAA mandates 1 year for any transfer, and I support that otherwise we would see wholesale free agency every year and even during the season. That would be bad. So, I have no problem with making kids sit one season.

But any time they are forced to sit 2 seasons, I think it is a bit much and is really unfair. As Oly said, if a team wants to restrict intra-conference transfers or transfers to teams that are annual rivals, that is one thing, but keeping the kid from going anywhere, really bad form Utah St.

I hope there is more media attention to this issue and Utah St. backs down ASAP. Let the kid get on with his life.

-Jason "I think there should be a NCAA rule that only allows a school to block transfers from -- I dunno -- 15 or 20 other programs... if you want to block more than that, you can pound sand" Evans

I wonder if there is a way to potation the NCAA to waive the "transfer" sit out year since he is sitting out this year???

Wait, no that would be sensible....

bedeviled

11-25-2015, 03:11 PM

Also, Collette will have to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play. The clock doesn't start ticking until he enrolls at a new school. Utah State will make him sit out for two years if they actually bar him from talking to other coaches until the end of the yearWhy are y'all saying 2 years? I don't think this is quite true. He can go ahead and enroll in classes, thus starting the clock, next semester regardless of the athletic release date. I agree, though, that he will have to make a less-informed decision about where to go. - Maybe a change in NCAA rules should be to NOT require the academic year be spent at the school to which one is transferring for athletics (ie sit out a year, it doesn't matter where you are when you're sitting out)? Or can you do this now...like if he goes to San Bedeviled State University (without playing) for a year can he then enroll and play at BYU/Utah the following year because he is not transferring directly between schools for whom he is competing?

Perhaps having to make a less-informed decision is fair or equivalent to this situation, though, as it is the position he put his original institution in by quitting so late. I agree that he will have to pay or get student loans to take classes while not playing, but that makes sense to me. Also, perhaps that, too, is equivalent in this situation to what Utah State suffered when they paid for his redshirt year - basically he is paying back the year.

Anyway, I think you and Sage are right in expecting an early release. I suspect the media attention was the result of his lawyer making early release an objective. In the end, I think the situation is distasteful to all parties but works out pretty much as it should. We shall see...well, we'll see the outcome, but we'll never be satisfied that we got the full story.

A few other comments:

I also find the sucker-punch episode to sound more alarming than others, as wellYeah, I'm not too bothered by this, mainly because we have little information about the whole situation and practically none about the punching incident.
- perhaps it says something that we don't have report of any other players, including those who were actually involved in the scuffle, being upset
- they did have a player suspended (http://www.sltrib.com/home/3124304-155/college-basketball-utah-state-crushes-panhandle) earlier this year for "violation of team rules"

Therefore, I am inclined to be more understanding that he waited until the last minute to announce his choiceI'm the exact opposite. Waiting until right before logging play this season suggests that he calculated his decision in hopes of maintaining as much eligibility as possible. That's fine, but it does show something about his character and regard for those around him. It's also suspicious to me that his decision came on national signing day. Consider, for example, that Utah had a verbal commitment from a forward who ended up signing with someone else that day. So, it's possible that Collette was specifically looking to transfer somewhere...or someone specific attempted to poach him when they had an opening or need. Or, perhaps it's suspicious that his decision was made after Utah State lost a lowly exhibition game that week. Maybe he wanted to jump ship to a better team.
All in all, the fact that he knew the assistant coach, knew the assistant coach was going to be head coach, worked with the coach and team but didn't make a decision until the last minute suggests that the "what's the reason why you're doing this now?" wasn't because he suddenly had enough of turmoil regarding the back of people's heads.

I do think the harm to the "business" might be slightly overstated considering that the alternative would be to have a malcontent on the team, which does no one any goodA team like Utah State has to be concerned that good athletes will want to make a jump to a higher visibility program. As such, perhaps the harm to the business is along a more long-range trajectory. That being said, we've all noted that having this kerfuffle can't help recruiting.

As Olympic Fan also mentioned in a previous post, I too wouldn't begrudge Utah State's decision to prevent him from going to a rival school or another school in the same conference where he would directly compete with them...[SNIP]...However, to prevent him from going anywhere, even schools that won't compete with Utah State except perhaps in the off chance they meet in the NCAAT, seems like a particularly harsh decisionIn light of the possibility of players trying to use schools like Utah State as stepping stones, I think it's reasonable to prevent contact with Power 5 schools - ESPN reports (http://espn.go.com/ncb/story/_/id/14219056/utah-state-denies-transfer-sophomore-forward-david-collette) that this was the initial limitation that was subsequently changed to a full block. It would be interesting to know what led to that decision.

bedeviled

11-25-2015, 03:23 PM

My apologies. I'm wrong.

Jay Bilas ‏@JayBilas 3h3 hours ago
There is no legitimate reason to deny an unpaid amateur a release. NONE.

Maybe he'll tell me about it some time ;)

Li_Duke

11-25-2015, 03:38 PM

This reminds me of Kevin Durant quitting the World Team in 2014. Sure it pissed people off, and started lots of rumor mongering about his character and his endorsement contracts. It would have been understandable if Coach K and USA basketball acted pissy about it, but they handled it with class. They adapted, invested in the players who wanted to be there, won the World Championship with those players, and invited him back for the Olympics. Their players are proud to play for them, and they have players lining up to play for them.

Sure it's anecdotal, but I think if you treat your former/current players well, it pays off down the line.

oldnavy

11-25-2015, 03:49 PM

My apologies. I'm wrong.

Jay Bilas ‏@JayBilas 3h3 hours ago
There is no legitimate reason to deny an unpaid amateur a release. NONE.

Maybe he'll tell me about it some time ;)

Interesting... I wonder how he would view this if the player was "paid" with a stipend or whatever he thinks they rate above and beyond the full ride scholly.

For example, just say this guy was cashing checks from the school for $500/month ... would Jay change his tune and feel that since the school was paying the player they had the right to hold him at the university??

I'm starting to think Jay is a commie... ;)

And while I'm on the topic, Jay sure gobbled up the Duke scholarship/education without hesitation.... and has done quite well for himself. I wonder if he somehow feels cheated?

uh_no

11-25-2015, 04:01 PM

My apologies. I'm wrong.

Jay Bilas ‏@JayBilas 3h3 hours ago
There is no legitimate reason to deny an unpaid amateur a release. NONE.

Maybe he'll tell me about it some time ;)

oof...is he doing the duke game tonight? I don't think he's in maui, and the duke game is the only other game on ESPN tonight it looks....

FerryFor50

11-25-2015, 04:50 PM

bedeviled

11-29-2015, 07:08 AM

Ultrarunner

11-29-2015, 12:20 PM

A host of Sports Network radio show The Zone (Utah, 97.5FM, 1280AM), Spencer Checketts (https://mobile.twitter.com/1280Spence), tweeted a new version of the story that includes the following:

Spencer Checketts ‏@1280Spence, Nov 26
While a fight did take place, Duryea informed the AD, and elected to handle the incident in house, as to not draw attention to the incident.
He spoke to his team, and elected to allow the “Leadership Committee”, comprised of Utah State players, to decide the punishment ...
The players decided the guilty party should serve a one week suspension. Among the members of the Leadership Committee? David Collette.

Spencer Checketts ‏@1280Spence, Nov 26
Collette was already being shopped around to other schools, based on the following …
Weeks before Collette made his intentions known, Duryea received a phone call from UNLV Head Coach Dave Rice.
Rice Told Duryea he had received a call from someone “representing” Collette …
This person informed Rice Collette was “looking to make a change” and was “watching out for his future.” Duryea was shocked by this.

It's a series of tweets, linked above. If you want to read it in a paragraph form, here is the link to a post in a Utah State forum (http://www.usufans.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39708&sid=086731afd23daeca7ac47a6e10fc0c8a#p417586).

Thanks for the link. I don't doubt that the tweets have been made, but after watching a half-decade of spin from a major public university, I'm inclined to take my news with large grains of salt. I wonder if Dave Rice would be willing to go on record confirming that he had been contacted by persons acting on behalf of Collette and that he had passed that information onto Duryea. If the information was passed along, how did Duryea get blindsided at the last second?

The leadership committee comment is interesting, too. So Collette was on it (assuming that this is reported accurately.) Did he go along with the recommendation? Or did he vote for more punitive sanctions and get out-voted? Was the coach pressuring the committee to be as lenient as possible? All sorts of information missing, of the kind that gives me pause.

El_Diablo

11-29-2015, 12:48 PM

Probably the greatest example of K's approach was Elliot Williams. I know the official story was that he wanted to return to Memphis to by near his ailing grandmother. The trouble was that she was ailing when he originally signed with Duke. There was a lot more to it than that -- and again, the decision came late (although K did have time to get Andre Dawkins to reclassify and come in early). But K publically backed the fiction that Williams was leaving to be near his grandmother and supported Williams' appeal to waive the one-year transfer rule (unlike the LOI release, a school can't unilaterally waive the one-year transfer rule).

Please provide a link to support your version of this so-called "fiction," because your understanding is way off in multiple respects. First, it was his mother, not his grandmother. Second, it was cancer, not just "ailing" (it killed her actually). And she was in remission when he signed with Duke but came out of remission during his freshman year. So again, please provide some support if you want to be dismissive of Elliot's decisionmaking in the face of a tragic family situation.

bedeviled

01-12-2016, 05:37 AM

The Dave Rice firing @ UNLV reminded me to follow up on the USU David Collette story (allegedly, Rice told the USU coach that someone in Collette's camp was shopping him around prior to his declaration to transfer).

Collette has enrolled at Utah. He will have to pay his own way or get student loans for a couple semesters, but will be eligible for scholarship and play in December 2016 as far as I can tell.

Utah is an interesting choice because it keeps the fiasco in obscurity:
- Going to Utah is an obvious choice because it keeps him close to his wife, and he can apparently live at his family home if need be.
- Going to Utah is a suspicious choice because he declared his desire to transfer on National Signing Day, as a forward committed to Utah suddenly signed with a different school. With 2 departing senior forwards and Poeltl this year, Collette can make his case for playing time next year.

While I thought my curiosity ended there, I found a story (https://www.ksl.com/?sid=38002435&nid=635&title=former-aggie-david-collettes-blind-faith-move-to-utah)that further piqued my interest:

"I never had in mind to go to Utah. I was thinking that I was going to get my release and then I would be able to explore some options, which I wanted to do," he said. "With not getting my release, I didn't have a whole lot of options, and so I had to strictly narrow it down to schools that I thought would take me, schools that had recruited me out of high school or schools that had tried to contact me at the end of the (season) last year."

Collette enrolled not knowing if Utah would even have a spot on its roster for him next season or whether they'd even want him. But based on past conversations with Utah head coach Larry Krystkowiak in the high school recruiting process, Collette said he felt confident about his future at Utah.

"From what I know from those (recruiting) experiences, I absolutely loved him as a person," Collette said about Krystkowiak. "And what I've seen him do as a coach, I really respect him a lot. I feel pretty confident he'll give me a shot at it."Um, is he actually saying that schools contacted him to gauge transfer interest while he was signed and playing for USU?? That would be a no-no, no?

And, the second part that I put in red is interesting due to timing. Collette verbally committed to USU in February 2011 (http://www.usufans.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5644)...while Larry Krystkowiak was with the New Jersey Nets. I know it's not against the rules, but I also know that many in the industry frown upon trying to lure kids away from a commitment. More interesting, though, is that Krystkowiak became the Utah coach April 3, 2011 and Collette signed with USU April 22, 2011 (http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/sports/51678373-77/state-collette-david-murray.html.csp). While it's not impossible that the two hit it off in that time, it does surprise to me. That's a tight time frame for Krystkowiak to pursue recruiting while also moving from New Jersey and getting familiar with Utah and his personnel (I don't know if he had to hire staff as well). Would Krystkowiak start his recruiting with people already committed to other places - that seems like an inefficient method for a new coach?

Perhaps I should let any lingering interest wane. After all, that article quotes Krystkowiak stating that he hasn't talked to Collette about the transfer and quotes Collette's dad stating that Collette hasn't talked to anybody. Of course, David Rice didn't say Collette, himself, was the one involved in the talking :rolleyes: