PDA

View Full Version : This Week in the ACC: 11/23-11/29



pfrduke
11-23-2015, 02:28 AM
Let's start with the good news first - the ACC started four pre-season tournaments last week and won three of them, already matching the total of winners from last season. All three of those also happen to be repeat champions. Miami put up the best showing, storming past two pretty good teams in Utah and Butler. Duke faced relatively similar foes in tighter games but emerged victorious in each. And UVA coasted past three little sisters of the poor to win a less-than-stacked field in Charleston.

The bad news is that each of the conference's top 3 teams went down (2 on the road to unranked mid-majors) while FSU and Georgia Tech also got knocked from the ranks of the unbeaten with losses in games they should have won.

This week, 9 other ACC squads will take their shot at an early-season trophy in, collectively, Maui, Brooklyn, Las Vegas, Kansas City, the Bahamas, Brooklyn again (all told, ACC teams play in the Barclays Center Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday this week), Orlando, Fullerton, and (this is a real place) Niceville. True to its ESPN-crafted name, this week is a veritable feast of fun hoops.

Monday
[39]Florida State vs. [194]Ohio in St. Thomas (4:00) (5th place game)
[80]Wake Forest vs. [15]Indiana in Lahaina (5:00, ESPN2)
[56]NC State vs. [68]Arizona State in Brooklyn (9:00, ESPN3)
[41]Clemson vs. [158]Massachusetts in Las Vegas (9:30)
[8]North Carolina vs. [69]Northwestern in Kansas City (9:30, ESPN2)

Tuesday
[16]Louisville hosts [250]St. Francis (NY) (7:00, ESPN3)
[147]Virginia Tech hosts [311]NC A&T (7:00, ESPN3)
[80]Wake Forest vs. [18]Vanderbilt/[156]St. John's in Lahaina (TBD)
[56]NC State vs. [53]LSU/[101]Marquette in Brooklyn (TBD)
[8]North Carolina vs. [96]Kansas State/[148]Missouri in Kansas City (TBD)

Wednesday
[36]Syracuse vs. [275]Charlotte in Atlantis (2:30, ESPN2)
[4]Duke hosts [72]Yale (7:00, ESPNU)
[34]Pittsburgh hosts [296]Cornell (7:00, ESPN3)
[3]Virginia hosts [185]Lehigh (7:00, ESPN3)
[41]Clemson vs. [82]Creighton/[210]Rutgers in Las Vegas (TBD)
[80]Wake Forest vs. [5]Kansas/[47]UCLA/[108]UNLV/[NR]Chaminade in Lahaina (TBD)

Thursday
[87]Georgia Tech vs. [103]Arkansas in Brooklyn (2:00, ESPNU)
[19]Notre Dame vs. [136]Monmouth in Orlando (6:30, ESPNU)
[118]Boston College vs. [14]Michigan State in Fullerton (6:30, ESPN2)
[36]Syracuse vs. [25]Connecticut/[37]Michigan in Atlantis (TBD)

Friday
[10]Miami hosts [113]Northeastern (4:00, ESPN3)
[147]Virginia Tech vs. [17]Iowa State in Niceville (7:00, CBSSN)
[56]NC State hosts [195]Winthrop (7:00, ESPN3)
[36]Syracuse vs. [6]Gonzaga/[30]Texas A&M/[42]Texas/[97]Washington in Atlantis (TBD)
[87]Georgia Tech vs. [2]Villanova/[119]Stanford in Brooklyn (TBD)
[19]Notre Dame vs. [20]Iowa/[46]Dayton in Orlando (TBD)
[118]Boston College vs. [62]Boise St./[111]UC-Irvine in Fullerton (TBD)

Saturday
[34]Pittsburgh hosts [138]Kent State (4:00, ESPN3)
[16]Louisville vs. [133]St. Louis in Brooklyn (8:00)
[147]Virginia Tech vs. [78]Illinois/[91]UAB in Niceville (TBD)

Sunday
[4]Duke hosts [130]Utah State (12:30, ESPNU)
[19]Notre Dame vs. [22]Xavier/[24]Wichita State/[48]USC/[93]Alabama in Orlando (TBD)
[118]Boston College vs. [7]Arizona/[59]Providence/[65]Evansville/[266]Santa Clara in Fullerton (TBD)

ACC Non-Conf: 45-8
ACC vs. Power 6: 6-1
AAC: 1-0
AEC: 3-0
A-10: 3-2
A-Sun: 2-1
Big East: 3-0
Big West: 1-0
CAA: 1-2
CUSA: 1-0
Horizon: 3-0
Ivy: 2-0
MAAC: 2-0
MEAC: 2-0
MVC: 1-1
NEC: 4-0
OVC: 1-0
Pac-12: 1-0
Patriot: 2-0
SEC: 2-1
Southern: 3-0
Southland: 1-0
Summit: 1-0
Sun Belt: 2-0
SWAC: 1-1
WAC: 1-0
Non-D1: 1-0

MChambers
11-23-2015, 10:00 AM
Rooting for Chris Collins and Northwestern even more than usual tonight!

91devil
11-23-2015, 07:14 PM
Well done, Deacs!

Bob Green
11-23-2015, 07:19 PM
Congratulations to Wake Forest on a win over #13 Indiana in Maui. The Deacons were clutch down the stretch to secure a four point victory over the Hoosiers.

tbyers11
11-23-2015, 07:21 PM
Well done, Deacs!

Huzzah for Manning and the Deacs. Indiana might have some players this year but they still have Tom Crean.

Troublemaker
11-23-2015, 07:25 PM
We're going to play Wake at least twice. Indiana only once. Good RPI result for us.

CDu
11-23-2015, 07:26 PM
Congratulations to Wake Forest on a win over #13 Indiana in Maui. The Deacons were clutch down the stretch to secure a four point victory over the Hoosiers.

What a game of runs in that second half! First Indiana, then Wake. Otherwordly first half from Mitoglou, and a solid overall game from Thomas. Wilbekin and Crawford look promising.

Awful game from Blackmon. He was a star last year, but he just didn't get it done today. Indiana seems to lack quality inside, and Wake's bigs took advantage.

ChillinDuke
11-23-2015, 07:27 PM
Well done, Deacs!

Pretty impressive win by the Deacs.

I didn't have a chance to watch the game, but Indiana, by all accounts, has a pretty good team this year. The Deacs held all 4 of Indiana's double-digit point scorers (62 combined ppg on this young season) to a combined 40 pts, including limiting Blackmon and Ferrell to 5 of 19 shooting.

Devin Thomas apparently had a great game with 21, 8, and 3 on 10-18. Mitoglou had 18 and 8, McClinton had 7 and 7 (not the drink), and the freshman PG Crawford (#94 RSCI) had 13 and 4 steals although a terrible 1:8.

Indiana entered the game undefeated (they beat Creighton at home) as the #3 ranked offense per KenPom. They were the only non-ACC offense in the Top 5.

- Chillin

CatDevil
11-23-2015, 07:27 PM
Well done, Deacs! Watched the end and it looked like Indiana had this one wrapped up. Deacons are making the ACC proud!

Go Duke!!

Olympic Fan
11-23-2015, 07:34 PM
Wake, playing without Codi-Miller McIntyre, dominated Indiana down the stretch.

Great game by freshman guard Bryant Crawford, who sliced through the Indiana defense twice in a row to score go-ahead baskets. Another freshman 6-10 John Collins had two key baskets on follow shots in the final two minutes.

If I were an Indiana fan, I'd be furious at Tom Crean. Going down the stretch, he had 7-1 freshman Thomas Bryant on the bench -- and while Bryant wasn't doing much offensively, with him out, the Deacs just chewed Indiana up inside. Also on the final play -- down two with 3.2 seconds left, he called a timeout and tried to set up a Grant Hill to Christian Laettner pass (intercepted by the Deacs, leading to the final two free throws by Collins). I don't get it. wake wasn't contesting the inbounds -- Indiana could have thrown it in at 3/4 court, made a simple pass ahead and gotten a decent shot.

BTW: Bill Walton is entertaining, but his knowledge of the game is lacking -- he confused the NBA timeout rule with the college rule -- he expected Indiana to inbound at midcourt after calling that timeout with 3.2 seconds left. Also, as the game went back and forth in the last minute, he got upset over Danny Manning and Crean calling "defensive" timeouts after their team converted a key basket. He never picked up on the fact that both teams were subbing for offense, then for defense.

Great win for the Deacs ... now they face Vanderbilt, which absolutely demolished St. John's in the first game in Maui.

Also, props to FSU for beating Ohio U in the consolation game of the Paradise Jam -- getting a 25-point game from freshman Dwayne Bacon.

And, it's early, but Wojo's Marquette's team took a 10-0 lead on LSU to open the game.

ACC up to 47-8 ... 7-1 vs. the Power Six.

pfrduke
11-23-2015, 07:35 PM
These are the kinds of wins that will help the entire conference down the road. Getting upsets of highly ranked high-major opponents on neutral courts hasn't seemed to happen all that often for the ACC in the past several years (in fairness, it probably doesn't happen that often for anyone) but nice to see the Deacs get it done tonight. They immediately get another shot tomorrow with a Vanderbilt team that looked every bit of the top 20 ranking it had coming into the day.

Indoor66
11-23-2015, 08:34 PM
Huzzah for Manning and the Deacs. Indiana might have some players this year but they still have Tom Crean.

You said it before I could. Crean strikes again. Without D. Wade he would be a mid-major coach. On second thought, I guess he still is! :cool:

Olympic Fan
11-23-2015, 09:17 PM
Not an ACC game, but Wojo and Marquette just took down No. 22 LSU as the much-hyped Ben Simmons pulls a Ralph Sampson and twice passes up the chance to attempt a game-winning shot in the final 10 seconds.

Now if Chris Collins can just do as well tonight ...

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-23-2015, 09:50 PM
Now if Chris Collins can just do as well tonight ...
That would be a fun way to see the Internet break...

flyingdutchdevil
11-24-2015, 07:39 AM
Not an ACC game, but Wojo and Marquette just took down No. 22 LSU as the much-hyped Ben Simmons pulls a Ralph Sampson and twice passes up the chance to attempt a game-winning shot in the final 10 seconds.

Now if Chris Collins can just do as well tonight ...

In fairness, Simmons had a monster game of 21 points, 20 rebounds, and 7 assists. He's legit

CDu
11-24-2015, 09:03 AM
In fairness, Simmons had a monster game of 21 points, 20 rebounds, and 7 assists. He's legit

Yeah the problem for LSU wasn't Simmons. It was the rest of the team. They are kind of a one-man band.

CDu
11-24-2015, 09:34 AM
The Heels, led by the veteran leadership of Nate Britt (1-7 fg, 5 pts, 1 ast, 1 reb, 1 to, 2 pf in 17 min) and Joel James (0-1 fg, 2 pf in 5 min), handled Northwestern. You could just see their leadership oozing into the performance of Justin Jackson (21 pts, 13 reb). Just a workmanlike win for the Heels. They get to face Kansas State tonight in what should in theory be a tougher test than last night.

State and Clemson were not so fortunate. The Pack fell to ASU by 3. Cat Barber was terrific, and four others reached double figures. But Savon Goodman (21 pts and 16 reb) and Tra Holder (22 pts) provided just enough in support to get the win. The Pack get to face the Fighting Ben Simmonses tonight in the consolation game. Clemson got pantsed by UMass, 82-65. The Tigers shot just 37.5% from the field, 22.2% from 3pt range, and 57.9% from the line. That is a surefire way to lose a ballgame. They get the night off before facing the calamity that is Rutgers.

Wake had the game of the night for the ACC though, in beating Indiana in Maui. The Deacs appear to have exposed a gigantic weakness in the Hoosiers, who couldn't defend at all inside. Devin Thomas and Dino Mitoglou each had big games (more accurately, Mitoglou had a monster first half, Thomas had a strong total game). The Hoosiers were let down by James Blackmon, Jr., who just couldn't score for them, and some terrible rebounding, as they were outboarded by 13 by the Deacs. The Deacs shot over 40% from 3 and over 50% overall (with lots of uncontested or loosely contested layups) to get the win. Tonight, they'll face Vanderbilt. The Commodores walloped St Johns, but struggled having to come back to beat Stony Brook at home in OT last week.

The other two games on the schedule tonight are against the dregs, so Louisville and Va Tech should win easily.

Billy Dat
11-24-2015, 09:49 AM
In fairness, Simmons had a monster game of 21 points, 20 rebounds, and 7 assists. He's legit

Co-sign this. The kid is really really good. He is just unselfish to a fault. You could see that if he had an already evolved mentality to take over the game, he could have. His passing is sublime. He is huge. He is smooth. Color me extremely impressed. I actually think LSU is very talented on offense but their defense is terrible although the full court pressure they applied was pretty great, granted it was helped by Marquette making bone-head play after bonehead play. I thought Wojo was going to lose his mind. He is Massimino-esque on the sidelines save for the untucked shirt and hair-pulling...running up and down, wildly gesticulating, watching him I have no idea how he kept it together on the Duke bench. His reverence for K must have kept him in check. Marquette's star freshman Henry Ellenson is effective but he's the opposite of Simmons - bulky, bruising, kind of a throwback to Troy Murphy (just doing my part of uphold the unwritten Jim Crow law of player comparison. In case it's not clear, I am making a joke). One classic moment...near the end, Simmons got tangled up with the end of the Marquette bench and he turned back around to say something as there was obviously some kind of heated back and forth going on. When the camera panned to zero in on the action, who was emerging from the bench, eyes blazing, smirk on face - Tyler Thornton. I loved it!


Wake had the game of the night for the ACC though, in beating Indiana in Maui. The Deacs appear to have exposed a gigantic weakness in the Hoosiers, who couldn't defend at all inside.

Hmm, doesn't sound like a weakness we can currently exploit. Indiana likes to run, which has given us trouble to date. That will be a real test of the CIS non-con home winning streak, a streak which would mean a heck of a lot more if it got more than one test every other year thanks to the ACC/Big 10 challenge.

CDu
11-24-2015, 10:32 AM
Hmm, doesn't sound like a weakness we can currently exploit. Indiana likes to run, which has given us trouble to date. That will be a real test of the CIS non-con home winning streak, a streak which would mean a heck of a lot more if it got more than one test every other year thanks to the ACC/Big 10 challenge.

Well, Indiana had a lot of trouble with handling Crawford (an attacking wing who compares unfavorably to Allen). So I do think we can exploit that. I also thing we can exploit their inability to rebound.

Indiana has potentially terrific guards/wings in Ferrell, Blackmon, Williams, and Johnson. How we defend Ferrell and Johnson in particular will be key (I think Matt Jones can lock down Blackmon). If we can contain Williams and not let Ferrell pick us apart, we should win handily thanks to Indiana's weakness in defending Allen and their inability to handle the boards.

This, of course, assuming that their flaws in this past game are repeatable.

pfrduke
11-24-2015, 11:13 AM
Tuesday's matchups updated with times and networks (rankings still from the beginning of the week):

Tuesday
[56]NC State vs. [53]LSU in Brooklyn (5:30, ESPNU)
[16]Louisville hosts [250]St. Francis (NY) (7:00, ESPN3)
[147]Virginia Tech hosts [311]NC A&T (7:00, ESPN3)
[80]Wake Forest vs. [18]Vanderbilt in Lahaina (7:30, ESPN)
[8]North Carolina vs. [96]Kansas State in Kansas City (10:00, ESPN2)

ChillinDuke
11-24-2015, 12:08 PM
The Heels, led by the veteran leadership of Nate Britt (1-7 fg, 5 pts, 1 ast, 1 reb, 1 to, 2 pf in 17 min) and Joel James (0-1 fg, 2 pf in 5 min), handled Northwestern. You could just see their leadership oozing into the performance of Justin Jackson (21 pts, 13 reb). Just a workmanlike win for the Heels. They get to face Kansas State tonight in what should in theory be a tougher test than last night.

State and Clemson were not so fortunate. The Pack fell to ASU by 3. Cat Barber was terrific, and four others reached double figures. But Savon Goodman (21 pts and 16 reb) and Tra Holder (22 pts) provided just enough in support to get the win. The Pack get to face the Fighting Ben Simmonses tonight in the consolation game. Clemson got pantsed by UMass, 82-65. The Tigers shot just 37.5% from the field, 22.2% from 3pt range, and 57.9% from the line. That is a surefire way to lose a ballgame. They get the night off before facing the calamity that is Rutgers.

Wake had the game of the night for the ACC though, in beating Indiana in Maui. The Deacs appear to have exposed a gigantic weakness in the Hoosiers, who couldn't defend at all inside. Devin Thomas and Dino Mitoglou each had big games (more accurately, Mitoglou had a monster first half, Thomas had a strong total game). The Hoosiers were let down by James Blackmon, Jr., who just couldn't score for them, and some terrible rebounding, as they were outboarded by 13 by the Deacs. The Deacs shot over 40% from 3 and over 50% overall (with lots of uncontested or loosely contested layups) to get the win. Tonight, they'll face Vanderbilt. The Commodores walloped St Johns, but struggled having to come back to beat Stony Brook at home in OT last week.

The other two games on the schedule tonight are against the dregs, so Louisville and Va Tech should win easily.

Really excited for the UNC game. Not exactly sure why. Maybe it's because they lost already so now I just smell blood at any reasonable opportunity.

State is starting to look like typical State. A talented team that is capable of upsets but also loses more than its fair share of games they should probably win. Not that ASU is a particularly bad loss. More so, I'm saying I expect State to be firmly on the bubble...again.

Clemson, meh. Not sure they have the offensive firepower to make much noise. Though I haven't watched them yet.

- Chillin

Troublemaker
11-24-2015, 02:42 PM
State is starting to look like typical State. A talented team that is capable of upsets but also loses more than its fair share of games they should probably win. Not that ASU is a particularly bad loss. More so, I'm saying I expect State to be firmly on the bubble...again.


I have a feeling that's optimistic for them this season. They only have one ball-handler in Cat. He's good but they're going to be too easy to scheme against. Lacey leaving unexpectedly killed them.

Olympic Fan
11-24-2015, 04:06 PM
In fairness, Simmons had a monster game of 21 points, 20 rebounds, and 7 assists. He's legit

He did -- but that's the point of calling it a Ralph Sampson game. Most of you aren't old enough to remember Ralph, but he would consistently have monster games -- but with the game on the line, he'd run and hide rather than attempt a big shot (or risk getting fouled).

Simmons came down with LSU down one, drove the lane and the defense collapsed on him. He made the perfectly understandable decision to kick the ball out. Marquette's defense reacted well and the guy on the wing moved it to another player, who fed it back to Simmons with about four seconds left. He caught it just beside the foul-line extended, not 15 feet from the basket and wide open. He had the option to shoot the short jumper or drive (and the way games are officiated this year, almost certainly draw the foul). Instead, he quickly chucked it away -- as if it were a hot potato.

Now, this is just one instance where Simmons ducked the game-winning responsibility. Sampson used to do it all the time. We'll have to see how it plays out.

But it did bug me to hear Simmons touted before the game as "the best player in college basketball." Not the best talent ... not the guy with the most potential ... but the best PLAYER, period. Then when the game was over and Simmons had clearly screwed the pooch at the end, the same talking heads made excuses -- "He's just 18 years old, playing in his third college game. He'll learn from this. It's an understandable error."

You can't have it both ways. The best PLAYER in college basketball can't make that kind of mistake (he can miss the shot .. but he can't duck the shot). A potentially great player who's still learning, can.

I think Simmons is the best talent in college basketball and may become the best player in college basketball at some point this year ... but until he's willing to take the game-deciding shot when it's right there for him, he's still got a ways to go.

CDu
11-24-2015, 06:00 PM
Man, this LSU/State game is U.G.L.Y.! State has basically one guy who can dribble: the very talented Cat Barber. LSU has the best player on the court, but they don't seem to be coached at all. They have given Simmons the ball on only about 20% of their possessions. And when he has gotten the ball, he has been too interested in throwing skip passes. He has yet to shoot in the first 15 minutes.

ChillinDuke
11-24-2015, 06:12 PM
He did -- but that's the point of calling it a Ralph Sampson game. Most of you aren't old enough to remember Ralph, but he would consistently have monster games -- but with the game on the line, he'd run and hide rather than attempt a big shot (or risk getting fouled).

Simmons came down with LSU down one, drove the lane and the defense collapsed on him. He made the perfectly understandable decision to kick the ball out. Marquette's defense reacted well and the guy on the wing moved it to another player, who fed it back to Simmons with about four seconds left. He caught it just beside the foul-line extended, not 15 feet from the basket and wide open. He had the option to shoot the short jumper or drive (and the way games are officiated this year, almost certainly draw the foul). Instead, he quickly chucked it away -- as if it were a hot potato.

Now, this is just one instance where Simmons ducked the game-winning responsibility. Sampson used to do it all the time. We'll have to see how it plays out.

But it did bug me to hear Simmons touted before the game as "the best player in college basketball." Not the best talent ... not the guy with the most potential ... but the best PLAYER, period. Then when the game was over and Simmons had clearly screwed the pooch at the end, the same talking heads made excuses -- "He's just 18 years old, playing in his third college game. He'll learn from this. It's an understandable error."

You can't have it both ways. The best PLAYER in college basketball can't make that kind of mistake (he can miss the shot .. but he can't duck the shot). A potentially great player who's still learning, can.

I think Simmons is the best talent in college basketball and may become the best player in college basketball at some point this year ... but until he's willing to take the game-deciding shot when it's right there for him, he's still got a ways to go.

I see your point.

Wouldn't you agree that this post is a bit of a polarizing view, though? I mean, the kid is a fantastic player already. He very well may be the best player in college ball. He should've taken the shot, I get it. So, next game if the same or similar situation arises and he shoots and scores, is he then the best player, period? Isn't there a spectrum here? If he's not the best player in college basketball, he's pretty darn close. And certainly in the discussion.

- Chillin

CDu
11-24-2015, 06:20 PM
What a thoroughly awful half of basketball. LSU has no clue what they are doing offensively. And somebody needs to explain to Simmons that the whole "point forward" thing is a cute trick, but ultimately if you are the best scorer on the team you need to demand the ball and score. He took just two shots in the half, and just never seemed to engage in the halfcourt offense at all. This is just not a very good team right now.

State has been... well... State. They are reliant on Barber, otherwise it is hoping contested shots fall. They have gotten a decent chunk of opportunistic points off of LSU's lack of organization. State is pretty clearly the better coached team in this game.

Wander
11-24-2015, 06:26 PM
What a thoroughly awful half of basketball. LSU has no clue what they are doing offensively. And somebody needs to explain to Simmons that the whole "point forward" thing is a cute trick, but ultimately if you are the best scorer on the team you need to demand the ball and score. He took just two shots in the half, and just never seemed to engage in the halfcourt offense at all. This is just not a very good team right now.


LSU had 3 NBA players on their team last year, none of them freshman. Usually that equates to a Final Four or even national title contender. For LSU, it equated to first round losses in both the SEC and NCAA tournament. That's probably indicative of subpar coaching, and I don't expect much to change this year.

CDu
11-24-2015, 06:39 PM
LSU had 3 NBA players on their team last year, none of them freshman. Usually that equates to a Final Four or even national title contender. For LSU, it equated to first round losses in both the SEC and NCAA tournament. That's probably indicative of subpar coaching, and I don't expect much to change this year.

Yeah, this a very poorly coached team. There is just no offensive gameplan at all. And when they do happen to stumble upon a semi-open shot, they usually pumpfake it away only to dribble into a contested shot.

As for Simmons, this is the first I have seen of him. But I have not seen him show any scoring acumen. He is a terrific passer and great athlete, but seems to be an awful shooter on the few times he has shot. And I haven't seen a single move with the ball. So maybe passing is the right idea?

CDu
11-24-2015, 07:22 PM
Wow, State got hosed there. Abu got failed with a second left on the shot clock as he attempted a putback. His shot came after the shotclock expired (and WELL after the foul. Yet instead of giving Abu two free throws (it was double bonus), they call a shot clock violation. Horrid call.

Thankfully, LSU had no clue what to do on the other end (they are basically a glorified pickup team out there), so it goes to OT.

And Simmons commits a dumb foul to get sent home with five.

CDu
11-24-2015, 07:33 PM
Kudos to State for gritting out a win in an awful bball game. But man was that hideous to watch. LSU got a lot of preseason love due to Simmons, but they look like a bubble team at best right now unless they get some coaching. We will take it - hopefully this win looks better in March than it does right now.

Olympic Fan
11-24-2015, 07:51 PM
Kudos to State for gritting out a win in an awful bball game. But man was that hideous to watch. LSU got a lot of preseason love due to Simmons, but they look like a bubble team at best right now unless they get some coaching. We will take it - hopefully this win looks better in March than it does right now.

Great win for State ... I keep saying that Gottfried's teams are resilient. Right now, they are playing with seven players. They really need to get Henderson back before they lose somebody else.

Simmons again showed his talent -- 16 rebound, 10 assists ... but he was 1-for-6 from the floor, 3-of-5 from the foul line (he missed a free throw with 30 seconds left that ultimately would have given them the win) and fouled out.

I still say he's got a way to go before we anoint him the best player in college basketball.

Tough two days for LSU, but to give them credit, they're playing without senior Keith Hornsby (the son of musician Bruce Hornsby), who is their best 3-point shooter (a 13.4 ppg scorer last season), plus Simmons is learning on the job. He's going to be great (emphasis on the "going to be") and Hornsby will be back.

One more note: I was in and out of the game and may have missed it. Did the announcers ever point out the team that beat LSU in the first NCAA game last year (technically, it was the second round -- the round of 64)? It was NC State on a last-second shot by BJ Anya.

Bob Green
11-24-2015, 08:00 PM
One more note: I was in and out of the game and may have missed it. Did the announcers ever point out the team that beat LSU in the first NCAA game last year (technically, it was the second round -- the round of 64)? It was NC State on a last-second shot by BJ Anya.

Yes, they specifically mentioned Anya making the winning shot. State persevered and won tonight which is my positive takeaway from the game. My negative takeaway is Cat Barber pounds the ball into the court while going nowhere too much. State's offense is dependent upon rebounds, put-backs and fouls.

CDu
11-24-2015, 08:03 PM
Great win for State ... I keep saying that Gottfried's teams are resilient. Right now, they are playing with seven players. They really need to get Henderson back before they lose somebody else.

Simmons again showed his talent -- 16 rebound, 10 assists ... but he was 1-for-6 from the floor, 3-of-5 from the foul line (he missed a free throw with 30 seconds left that ultimately would have given them the win) and fouled out.

I still say he's got a way to go before we anoint him the best player in college basketball.

Tough two days for LSU, but to give them credit, they're playing without senior Keith Hornsby (the son of musician Bruce Hornsby), who is their best 3-point shooter (a 13.4 ppg scorer last season), plus Simmons is learning on the job. He's going to be great (emphasis on the "going to be") and Hornsby will be back.

One more note: I was in and out of the game and may have missed it. Did the announcers ever point out the team that beat LSU in the first NCAA game last year (technically, it was the second round -- the round of 64)? It was NC State on a last-second shot by BJ Anya.

Totally agreed on Simmons. Loads of talent, but still very much a work in progress. It was amazing that for such a gifted passer he has very little polish to his scoring game.

As for the game last year, it was mentioned at least once. But not often.

The major takeaway I got from LSU is that they appear to be very poorly coached. Combine that with the youth and they just look completely lost out yhere in a half court game. The announcers were trying to tiptoe around the issue, but man did the Tigers look disorganized.

These two teams will probably be bubblicious, so good win for State in putting themselves ahead of LSU in the pecking order.

Billy Dat
11-24-2015, 09:27 PM
Totally agreed on Simmons. Loads of talent, but still very much a work in progress. It was amazing that for such a gifted passer he has very little polish to his scoring game.

As for the game last year, it was mentioned at least once. But not often.

The major takeaway I got from LSU is that they appear to be very poorly coached. Combine that with the youth and they just look completely lost out yhere in a half court game. The announcers were trying to tiptoe around the issue, but man did the Tigers look disorganized.

These two teams will probably be bubblicious, so good win for State in putting themselves ahead of LSU in the pecking order.

Your string of posts was on the money. Simmons really is a gifted passer, like already at a pro level. Your comments about his lack of scoring ego are right on the money. Both times I have seen him play I am saying to the screen, "Just take over!" That drive he hit to tie the game and send it to OT, he could have done that all game. I think his horrible foul shooting contributes to his lack of aggression that way. He'll get there.

As for State, Barber, Abu and Anya are all back and looking as we expected. Those Martin brothers are pretty tough, I don't really remember them from last year.

Overall, though, you are right about that game being painful. I do think LSU has a number of talented scorers and can cause some havok with their ball pressure and press - you know a team is quick if the CAT is skittish - but your observations about their poor coaching are spot on.

brevity
11-24-2015, 09:44 PM
Tough two days for LSU, but to give them credit, they're playing without senior Keith Hornsby (the son of musician Bruce Hornsby), who is their best 3-point shooter (a 13.4 ppg scorer last season)...

Much like his father, Keith Hornsby has the Range. Too bad he's injured, but that's just the way it is.

(Free sporks for anyone who can work in a "Mandolin Rain" reference and make it sound organic.)

devildeac
11-25-2015, 11:14 AM
Much like his father, Keith Hornsby has the Range. Too bad he's injured, but that's just the way it is.

(Free sporks for anyone who can work in a "Mandolin Rain" reference and make it sound organic.)

I've thought about this overnight and will no longer fret about it. OPK is really good at stuff like this, perhaps he can string you along but I'll pick another tune to punish you some more later.

OldPhiKap
11-25-2015, 11:38 AM
Much like his father, Keith Hornsby has the Range. Too bad he's injured, but that's just the way it is.

(Free sporks for anyone who can work in a "Mandolin Rain" reference and make it sound organic.)


I've thought about this overnight and will no longer fret about it. OPK is really good at stuff like this, perhaps he can string you along but I'll pick another tune to punish you some more later.

I don't joke about Mandolin Rain. Ever.

Too soon.

ChillinDuke
11-25-2015, 12:22 PM
I seriously think Ben Simmons is being undersold in this thread. Throwaway concepts such as "he will get there" or "someday" or "soon to be" are, IMO, not fair to what he's doing. Fair to Brandon Ingram perhaps, but not fair to Ben Simmons.

Thus far, he is averaging...averaging...16.2 points, 14.4 rebounds (leading the entire nation), 6.2 assists, 2.2 steals, and 1.4 blocks per game. With turnovers of 1.2 per game, his A:T is phenomenally >5.

And while I wouldn't deem LSU's competition thus far to be top tier, they have played Marquette and NC State. So not all bottom feeders.

I mean, geez, the kid just put up a 20-20 game against Marquette in his 4th college game! And despite only 4 pts against NC State, he posted 14 boards, 10 assists, 3 blocks and 3 steals!

I know they're only counting stats (not advanced metrics), I know his decision making needs improvement, and I know his team and coach both kinda stink, but people this is quite a showing to start his lone season in college ball.

As another point of reference, through Anthony Davis' first 5 college games (which included similarly poor competition with a Kansas and Penn State sprinkled in), he averaged 12.6, 7.4, 1.4, 1, and 4.4 blocks.

You can say that Ben Simmons has a brilliant future ahead of him, but don't undersell his current state to do so.

- Chillin

tbyers11
11-25-2015, 12:37 PM
I seriously think Ben Simmons is being undersold in this thread. Throwaway concepts such as "he will get there" or "someday" or "soon to be" are, IMO, not fair to what he's doing. Fair to Brandon Ingram perhaps, but not fair to Ben Simmons.

Thus far, he is averaging...averaging...16.2 points, 14.4 rebounds (leading the entire nation), 6.2 assists, 2.2 steals, and 1.4 blocks per game. With turnovers of 1.2 per game, his A:T is phenomenally >5.

And while I wouldn't deem LSU's competition thus far to be top tier, they have played Marquette and NC State. So not all bottom feeders.

I mean, geez, the kid just put up a 20-20 game against Marquette in his 4th college game! And despite only 4 pts against NC State, he posted 14 boards, 10 assists, 3 blocks and 3 steals!

I know they're only counting stats (not advanced metrics), I know his decision making needs improvement, and I know his team and coach both kinda stink, but people this is quite a showing to start his lone season in college ball.

As another point of reference, through Anthony Davis' first 5 college games (which included similarly poor competition with a Kansas and Penn State sprinkled in), he averaged 12.6, 7.4, 1.4, 1, and 4.4 blocks.

You can say that Ben Simmons has a brilliant future ahead of him, but don't undersell his current state to do so.

- Chillin

Agree on the underselling of Ben Simmons. If you only watched the NC State game and heard about how he passed up the game-winning attempt against Marquette it is not doing him justice.

He did not assert himself offensively against NC State and had a poor scoring game but he was pretty amazing in the 2nd half I watched against Marquette. Can get to the hoop against opposing PFs nearly at will and can use post moves against smaller players. Defense (moved his feet to get in front of Ellenson to draw a charge in OT), rebounding, handle (getting the rebound and leading the fast break himself was very reminiscent of Jabari), and passing were top notch as well. The only knock on him I have, which is possibly not a knock based on small sample size, is outside shooting. He didn't show off a 15 foot jumper nor has he taken a 3 so far this year. Maybe he has the ability but hasn't had the need to use it yet.

It will be interesting to see him against more strong competition. However, as Wake on 12/29 is their best remaining non-conference game we might have to wait a bit.

Olympic Fan
11-25-2015, 12:50 PM
I seriously think Ben Simmons is being undersold in this thread. Throwaway concepts such as "he will get there" or "someday" or "soon to be" are, IMO, not fair to what he's doing. Fair to Brandon Ingram perhaps, but not fair to Ben Simmons.

Thus far, he is averaging...averaging...16.2 points, 14.4 rebounds (leading the entire nation), 6.2 assists, 2.2 steals, and 1.4 blocks per game. With turnovers of 1.2 per game, his A:T is phenomenally >5.

And while I wouldn't deem LSU's competition thus far to be top tier, they have played Marquette and NC State. So not all bottom feeders.

I mean, geez, the kid just put up a 20-20 game against Marquette in his 4th college game! And despite only 4 pts against NC State, he posted 14 boards, 10 assists, 3 blocks and 3 steals!

I know they're only counting stats (not advanced metrics), I know his decision making needs improvement, and I know his team and coach both kinda stink, but people this is quite a showing to start his lone season in college ball.

As another point of reference, through Anthony Davis' first 5 college games (which included similarly poor competition with a Kansas and Penn State sprinkled in), he averaged 12.6, 7.4, 1.4, 1, and 4.4 blocks.

You can say that Ben Simmons has a brilliant future ahead of him, but don't undersell his current state to do so.

- Chillin


Ah, I started out comparing him to Ralph Sampson ... now we get to the Wilt Chamberlain comparison -- great, great numbers, but almost always on teams that don't win as much as they are supposed to.

Okay, I'm exaggerating. I do think Simmons is a great talent --and I said so in this thread. He's potentially the best player in college basketball this year. But he's not right now -- and that's the only point I've been trying to make. He's still working on his decision making. His offensive game is very much a work in progress. He has an amazing ability to take the ball to the basket on the drive -- but is he even as good as Grayson Allen in that area? He has not demonstrated any kind of jump shot ... unless than happens, teams are going to take the drive away (as NC State did for the most part) and what does that leave him with? Well, he'll still be a very good distributor and a great rebounder ... but that doesn't make him the best player in college basketball either.

Frankly, I have more faith in Coach K helping Brandon get to his full potential (which isn't nearly as high) as I do in Coach Jones getting Simmons to his full potential. But I'd still draft Simmons No. 1 in next spring's draft.

PS LSU does have another decent non-conference game -- Dec. 13 at Houston (rated by KenPom as a tougher test than the Wake game). Then they open SEC play against a very good Vanderbilt team.

Wander
11-25-2015, 01:14 PM
He's potentially the best player in college basketball this year. But he's not right now -- and that's the only point I've been trying to make. He's still working on his decision making. His offensive game is very much a work in progress. He has an amazing ability to take the ball to the basket on the drive -- but is he even as good as Grayson Allen in that area? He has not demonstrated any kind of jump shot ... unless than happens, teams are going to take the drive away (as NC State did for the most part) and what does that leave him with? Well, he'll still be a very good distributor and a great rebounder ... but that doesn't make him the best player in college basketball either.

Who IS the best player in college basketball right now, though? This is a bit like the arguments that UNC or Maryland or Kentucky or whoever should not be preseason #1... there are lots of reasonable arguments to be made in support of that position, and they sound right, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE has to be #1, and those teams were as good of choices as any.

I think it's similar here. There's not a surefire #1 team this year, and to my eye there's not a surefire #1 player. Simmons' worst game involves 10 assists and 0 turnovers! There are definitely other players who might be better than Simmons right now, but none of them are DEFINITELY better right now. Grayson Allen needs more games to prove that horrible Kentucky performance was just a fluke. Buddy Hield has a strong argument and awesome stats but hasn't played anyone good this year yet. Etc. I'm not convinced that Simmons isn't one of the best, and maybe even the best, player right now. Or he might not be. It's too early to tell.

Olympic Fan
11-25-2015, 01:18 PM
Who IS the best player in college basketball right now, though? This is a bit like the arguments that UNC or Maryland or Kentucky or whoever should not be preseason #1... there are lots of reasonable arguments to be made in support of that position, and they sound right, but at the end of the day, SOMEONE has to be #1, and those teams were as good of choices as any.

I think it's similar here. There's not a surefire #1 team this year, and to my eye there's not a surefire #1 player. Simmons' worst game involves 10 assists and 0 turnovers! There are definitely other players who might be better than Simmons right now, but none of them are DEFINITELY better right now. Grayson Allen needs more games to prove that horrible Kentucky performance was just a fluke. Buddy Hield has a strong argument and awesome stats but hasn't played anyone good this year yet. Etc. I'm not convinced that Simmons isn't one of the best, and maybe even the best, player right now. Or he might not be. It's too early to tell.

I would argue that the best player might be a guy who most elevates his team -- and Simmons, despite his glittering numbers -- has taken a preseason top 25 team and led them to losses in their only two competitive games.

I say again, he might become the best player in college basketball, but cherrypicking his favorable stats and ignoring the fact that he's come up short in the two most important games his team has played does not make him the best player in college basketball ... just the most talented.

Billy Dat
11-25-2015, 01:45 PM
Simmons gets a Luke Winn scouting breakdown
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/11/25/ben-simmons-lsu-tigers-nba-draft-scouting-report

CDu
11-25-2015, 02:35 PM
Simmons gets a Luke Winn scouting breakdown
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/11/25/ben-simmons-lsu-tigers-nba-draft-scouting-report

That's a pretty good breakdown of Simmons' game, and boils down to this: Simmons does everything extremely well except for shooting, and he shoots extremely poorly. Basically, the book is out on Simmons: give him as much room as possible and dare him to shoot open jumpshots. Take away the driving angles and force him to pass on the perimeter or shoot jumpers.

That's what Marquette and NC State did. And he was more than happy to pass the ball all over the court (especially in the State game). He made no effort to try to find/create driving lanes, just immediately passed before entering any sort of traffic.

His scoring game seems to consist of fast breaks, putbacks, and the occasional sneaky drive when he catches the defense out of position. But he just doesn't make jumpshots at all right now. That's a substantial limitation.

Olympic Fan
11-26-2015, 02:13 AM
Another good victory for Wake Forest, beating UCLA in the third-place game in Maui. I know the Bruins are down this year, but it's still a good with for a lower echelon ACC team. Good trip -- wins over No. 13 Indiana and UCLA sandwiched around a loss to Vanderbilt.

The ACC was 6-0 Wednesday, but the only other significant result was Clemson's 18-point win over Rutgers in Vegas -- one of the worst ACC teams beating one of the worst Big Ten teams.

Wednesday's results make the ACC 58-11 in non-conference games ... 12-3 against the other power six conferences ... 4-2 against ranked opponents.

Got a sure loss Thursday -- Boston College vs. Michigan State and a sure win -- Notre Dame vs. Monmouth.

Two interesting games -- Georgia Tech vs. Arkansas in Brooklyn and Syracuse vs. No. 18 UConn in the Bahamas

Olympic Fan
11-26-2015, 01:20 PM
in view of our discussion about national player of the year candidates, I thought I'd link Pomeroy's current standings -- based on his statistical model:

http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php

I don't think that's for-pay info but if it is, I should mention that he currently has Oklahoma's Buddy Hield at No. 1 ... Duke's Grayson Allen at No. 2.

The much debated Ben Simmons does not make the top 10 at the moment.

Indoor66
11-26-2015, 03:46 PM
in view of our discussion about national player of the year candidates, I thought I'd link Pomeroy's current standings -- based on his statistical model:

http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php

I don't think that's for-pay info but if it is, I should mention that he currently has Oklahoma's Buddy Hield at No. 1 ... Duke's Grayson Allen at No. 2.

The much debated Ben Simmons does not make the top 10 at the moment.

But the talking heads all say he is the best player in the country. KenPom must be wrong! :mad:

Olympic Fan
11-26-2015, 05:56 PM
Great afternoon for the ACC as Georgia Tech takes down Arkansas in Brooklyn, while Syracuse started slow, took command, then held off No. 18 UConn in the Bahamas.

That improves the ACC to 60-11 in non-conference games ... 13-3 against the other power six conferences and 5-2 against ranked opponents.

It's getting harder and harder for the skeptics (not naming names, but you know who you are) to deny that the ACC is off to an impressive start. The depth of the league is astonishing.

Okay, we're going to take a bit of a hit when BC meets No. 3 Michigan State in the Wooden Legacy in about an hour ... and we'll probably add a so-so win when Notre Dame beats Monmouth in Orlando at about the same time (although Monmouth did beat UCLA, so a decent midmajor).

There will be some really big games Friday -- Notre Dame gets the winner of tonight's Dayton/Iowa game -- which should tell us a lot about the Irish. Syracuse faces No. 25 Texas A&M (which upset No. 10 Gonzaga today); Georgia Tech gets No. 7 Villanova ... we do face another loss when VPI takes on No. 4 Iowa State in Florida, plus BC has to play a pretty good UC Irvine team. But NC State and Miami are at home and should add wins.

The ACC is rolling! That's good news for Duke -- all their wins elevate our RPI.

CDu
11-26-2015, 08:05 PM
I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-26-2015, 08:29 PM
I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.
Oy. Notre Dame couldn't hang with King Rice's crew. By the way, Rice looks like a frickin zombie. Anyway, ugly loss for ND and the ACC.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2015, 08:42 PM
I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

There are a number of folks who think that Miami is the best team in the conference right now. And I tend to agree.

For now.

CDu
11-26-2015, 08:54 PM
There are a number of folks who think that Miami is the best team in the conference right now. And I tend to agree.

For now.

I wasn't a believer in them before the season due to their inconsistency. But they made a believer out of me. Notre Dame and FSU, on the other hand, have yet to do so.

Olympic Fan
11-26-2015, 10:14 PM
I will remain skeptical. Tech beat a not-very-good Arkansas team. And Notre Dame is currently losing by double digits to Monmouth. And rankings are meaningless right now. LSU was ranked preseason based on Simmons hype and nothing else. Clearly they should not be ranked. Same for Indiana, and possibly UConn (we will see on that one).

There are certainly good teams in the ACC (Miami looks great, for example). I remain skeptical about the quality of depth in the conference.

I certainly hope I am wrong though. Though Notre Dame is not giving me confidence.

Yeah, the Notre Dame loss -- by two to a very good mid-major -- was disappointing. But it doesn't change the narrative -- the ACC has showed surprising depth this season and continues to compile a far better early season record than any other major conference.

You can keep dismissing all the ACC wins as they pile up if you want. I'd rather point out that Arkansas -- the team UNC beat to get to the Sweet 16 last year (that was apparently so impressive a win that everybody picked UNC No. 1 this year) and projected No. 7 in the SEC this season -- fell to the team picked to finish 13th in the ACC this year, which also beat the team picked to finish ninth in the SEC. The team picked 11th in the ACC just beat the team picked No. 2 in the Big Ten, followed by a win over the No. 5 Pac 12 team ... and did that without one of their two best players. The team picked No. 5 in the ACC won back to back games over ranked teams. Syracuse, a team I had little faith in, just beat No. 18 Conn on a neutral; court. Our preseason No. 10 team hasn't beaten anybody of note, but they did lead the No. 10 team in the nation at the half before that game was cancelled.

Yeah, I'm disappointed in a few outcomes -- Notre Dame's loss was disappointing. So was NC State's loss to William & Mary. But State bounced back to beat mighty LSU and the anointed national player of the year and I feel certain Notre Dame will bounce back too.

When March rolls around, we're going to be arguing about whether the ACC is going to get 8,9 or 10 teams in the NCAA Tournament ... and maybe more than last year's five Sweet 16 teams.

I'm already pumped for Friday's games --

CDu
11-26-2015, 11:12 PM
Yeah, the Notre Dame loss -- by two to a very good mid-major -- was disappointing. But it doesn't change the narrative -- the ACC has showed surprising depth this season and continues to compile a far better early season record than any other major conference.

You can keep dismissing all the ACC wins as they pile up if you want. I'd rather point out that Arkansas -- the team UNC beat to get to the Sweet 16 last year (that was apparently so impressive a win that everybody picked UNC No. 1 this year) and projected No. 7 in the SEC this season -- fell to the team picked to finish 13th in the ACC this year, which also beat the team picked to finish ninth in the SEC. The team picked 11th in the ACC just beat the team picked No. 2 in the Big Ten, followed by a win over the No. 5 Pac 12 team ... and did that without one of their two best players. The team picked No. 5 in the ACC won back to back games over ranked teams. Syracuse, a team I had little faith in, just beat No. 18 Conn on a neutral; court. Our preseason No. 10 team hasn't beaten anybody of note, but they did lead the No. 10 team in the nation at the half before that game was cancelled.

Yeah, I'm disappointed in a few outcomes -- Notre Dame's loss was disappointing. So was NC State's loss to William & Mary. But State bounced back to beat mighty LSU and the anointed national player of the year and I feel certain Notre Dame will bounce back too.

When March rolls around, we're going to be arguing about whether the ACC is going to get 8,9 or 10 teams in the NCAA Tournament ... and maybe more than last year's five Sweet 16 teams.

I'm already pumped for Friday's games --

Monmouth is a low-major, not a mid-major. They are a good low-major, but a low-major. That is a bad loss. And it is very much not the same Arkansas team: that team had the SEC player of the year in Bobby Portis. This team just lost to Akron. And you point to preseason projections, but those are meaningless. Indiana is clearly not the #2 team in the Big-10, and UCLA is not the #5 team in the PAC-12. And who knows if UConn is really a top-20 caliber team?

The Syracuse win may or may not be good. By that I mean, it is good for the conference but may or may not actually represent a win over a good team. Still, definitely better to win that than not.

I will be astounded if we are talking about 10 ACC teams in the field. I think 7 is more like it. Duke, UNC, UVa, Miami, and a few others will get in. Probably Syracuse, Louisville, and somebody else.

Wander
11-26-2015, 11:35 PM
I think the bottom line is that it is simply too early to be making judgements about the ACC as a whole in either direction. There are just too many teams who just have not played a good opponent yet, and they are largely the teams that are probably going to be in the middle of the pack - Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, Louisville, Clemson, FSU (obviously not Pitt's fault with the canceled game). It's really impossible to be making judgements on how many teams are going to make the NCAA tournament. The ACC's start isn't impressive. It also isn't not-impressive. It's just... unknown, until we see more games against better opponents.

CDu
11-26-2015, 11:53 PM
I think the bottom line is that it is simply too early to be making judgements about the ACC as a whole in either direction. There are just too many teams who just have not played a good opponent yet, and they are largely the teams that are probably going to be in the middle of the pack - Pittsburgh, Notre Dame, Louisville, Clemson, FSU (obviously not Pitt's fault with the canceled game). It's really impossible to be making judgements on how many teams are going to make the NCAA tournament. The ACC's start isn't impressive. It also isn't not-impressive. It's just... unknown, until we see more games against better opponents.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There have been some impressive wins: Miami with two big ones. There have been some bad losses: State and UVa and Notre Dame. And aside from that, there has been a lot of unclear value. I mean, it is good that we aren't losing a ton, but I am just not sure yet how good these wins really are.

NSDukeFan
11-27-2015, 05:40 AM
Is it time yet for sagegrouse to mention that we need to have some mid season inter conference games to get a better indication of conference strength? This year may be different with the encouraging start to pre conference play for the ACC, as it seems every year there are some ACC teams that look terrible in early season out of conference play that round into form in conference play.

Troublemaker
11-27-2015, 05:01 PM
Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_4_Atlantis#2015)

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

CDu
11-27-2015, 05:05 PM
Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_4_Atlantis#2015)

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

Yep, they are looking good this year. Veterans Gbinije and Cooney, Lydon off the bench, and Coleman with size inside.

dukelifer
11-27-2015, 05:05 PM
Syracuse just beat TAMU to win the Battle 4 Atlantis tournament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_4_Atlantis#2015)

Impressive. I thought they were the 4th-best team going in but they beat two of the teams I thought were better (UConn, TAMU).

Also, I had no idea Dajuan Coleman was still playing. Hopefully he stays healthy this season and gives them a solid post presence. It feels like 10 years ago that I first read about what a great post prospect he was coming out of high school.

Gbinije is playing really well. He has transformed himself into a very capable ball handler and shooter. The kid has a good chance to play at the next level. Good for him. Hard work pays off. The Cuse is dangerous. They play smart and have an above average backcourt- assuming Cooney doesn't fold midseason.

Troublemaker
11-27-2015, 05:32 PM
Yep, they are looking good this year. Veterans Gbinije and Cooney, Lydon off the bench, and Coleman with size inside.

Yeah, also promising freshman wing Malachi Richardson and energetic garbageman veteran Tyler Roberson as well.

We just named their entire rotation.

Their talent falls off a cliff after these 6 players, but Boeheim with his zone is probably one of the few coaches that can get away with playing 6. Hopefully they stay healthy.

flyingdutchdevil
11-27-2015, 05:39 PM
What does this board think of Miami? Boeheim, in a recent interview, said they are the best ACC team right now. And he may not be wrong. They have experienced and talented guards, which is a very good place to start. And Miami did have that amazing season three years back, so Miami tearing through the ACC isn't anything new.

CDu
11-27-2015, 05:43 PM
What does this board think of Miami? Boeheim, in a recent interview, said they are the best ACC team right now. And he may not be wrong. They have experienced and talented guards, which is a very good place to start. And Miami did have that amazing season three years back, so Miami tearing through the ACC isn't anything new.

They certainly have the talent. Consistency was their problem last year. They have looked shaky today, but nobody can deny the impressive wins they have had so far.

Stray Gator
11-27-2015, 06:03 PM
And down go the Canes . . . at home, to Northeastern.

flyingdutchdevil
11-27-2015, 06:10 PM
They certainly have the talent. Consistency was their problem last year. They have looked shaky today, but nobody can deny the impressive wins they have had so far.

For what it's worth, the top four offensive teams in the country (Kenpom of course) are in the ACC. And 7 of the top 30 teams are ACC (overall). It's gonna be a dog fight. I'm not expecting Duke to win either the reg season or the tourney (our recent track record hasn't been great), but I do expect Duke to threaten every game and peak in March. If that happens, I think we'll go the farthest of any ACC team.

If I'm gonna rank the ACC teams right now (emphasis on right now), I'd go Miami, UVA, Duke, and UNC. UNC is tops, imo, with Paige, and UVA had that ugly loss against GW. And Duke is, well, fairly raw.

flyingdutchdevil
11-27-2015, 06:11 PM
And down go the Canes . . . at home, to Northeastern.

Hahahahahahaha. There goes my top 4!!!!!

devildeac
11-27-2015, 06:20 PM
And down go the Canes . . . at home, to Northeastern.


Hahahahahahaha. There goes my top 4!!!!!

Wonder if they made a t-shirt to celebrate and/or if any officials get suspended:rolleyes: .

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-27-2015, 07:03 PM
Wonder if they made a t-shirt to celebrate and/or if any officials get suspended:rolleyes: .
The U-pset

devildeac
11-27-2015, 08:40 PM
The U-pset


Nice. You oughtta send that to their AD/fan base :rolleyes: .

;)

Troublemaker
11-27-2015, 08:59 PM
I'm not expecting Duke to win either the reg season or the tourney (our recent track record hasn't been great), but I do expect Duke to threaten every game and peak in March. If that happens, I think we'll go the farthest of any ACC team.

That would be unlikely.

Coach K has been to 12 Final Fours. Only 3 times in 12 did Duke not win either the ACC regular season or the ACC tournament beforehand -- 1989, 1990, 2015.

I know 2015 is fresh in our minds, which may partly explain why you're predicting what you're predicting above. But, I would argue that last season shouldn't even count because Duke went 15-3 in the ACC. That's a great record and would win the regular season (or at least a share) the vast majority of times. Alas, it just so happens that UVA pulled off an even greater regular season by going 16-2. But you should not get into the habit of expecting great NCAA tournament runs from Duke if it's not preceded by ACC championships, either regular season or tournament.

We don't typically do Izzo-style tournament runs. We typically show our quality throughout the entire season if we end up being a Final Four team.

flyingdutchdevil
11-27-2015, 09:08 PM
That would be unlikely.

Coach K has been to 12 Final Fours. Only 3 times in 12 did Duke not win either the ACC regular season or the ACC tournament beforehand -- 1989, 1990, 2015.

I know 2015 is fresh in our minds, which may partly explain why you're predicting what you're predicting above. But, I would argue that last season shouldn't even count because Duke went 15-3 in the ACC. That's a great record and would win the regular season (or at least a share) the vast majority of times. Alas, it just so happens that UVA pulled off an even greater regular season by going 16-2. But you should not get into the habit of expecting great NCAA tournament runs from Duke if it's not preceded by ACC championships, either regular season or tournament.

We don't typically do Izzo-style tournament runs. We typically show our quality throughout the entire season if we end up being a Final Four team.

I disagree, because this is a new era for Coach K's teams. These aren't teams that are experienced and talented from the get go. They are talented, but not experienced. I fully expect Duke to go through ups and downs this season, especially deep into February. In this era, you can easily have a good - but not great - record and make it far into the tournament. 2014 Kentcuky comes to mind, as do the last two UCONN Natties. Duke has the tools - insane talent (and we are the most talented team on paper in the ACC), great coaching, and, fortunately, plenty of time to make that March run without dominating the regular season.

Troublemaker
11-27-2015, 09:25 PM
I disagree, because this is a new era for Coach K's teams. These aren't teams that are experienced and talented from the get go. They are talented, but not experienced. I fully expect Duke to go through ups and downs this season, especially deep into February. In this era, you can easily have a good - but not great - record and make it far into the tournament. 2014 Kentcuky comes to mind, as do the last two UCONN Natties. Duke has the tools - insane talent (and we are the most talented team on paper in the ACC), great coaching, and, fortunately, plenty of time to make that March run without dominating the regular season.

I'll have to see it to believe it. Coach K has never made that type of tournament run before.

Of Coach K's 12 Final Fours, 11 were accomplished as either a 1 or 2 seed. (And Duke was a 3 seed the one other time.)

So if you're thinking that Duke can, like Kentucky 2014, make the Final Four as an 8 seed... I'll just repeat that I'll have to see it to believe it. Because Coach K has never done that before.

Now, I DO think this Duke team can make the Final Four. Where you and I disagree is probably about Duke's chances to win an ACC championship this season, regular season or tournament. I think Duke can win both, and I think Duke is > 50/50 to win at least one.

With the implementation of the 1-3-1 zone, and with Brandon and Luke starting to pitch in, Duke's about to click as a team. We should be able to match UVA and UNC in consistency once ACC games begin. IMO.

sagegrouse
11-27-2015, 10:05 PM
I'll have to see it to believe it. Coach K has never made that type of tournament run before.

Of Coach K's 12 Final Fours, 11 were accomplished as either a 1 or 2 seed. (And Duke was a 3 seed the one other time.)

So if you're thinking that Duke can, like Kentucky 2014, make the Final Four as an 8 seed... I'll just repeat that I'll have to see it to believe it. Because Coach K has never done that before.

Now, I DO think this Duke team can make the Final Four. Where you and I disagree is probably about Duke's chances to win an ACC championship this season, regular season or tournament. I think Duke can win both, and I think Duke is > 50/50 to win at least one.

With the implementation of the 1-3-1 zone, and with Brandon and Luke starting to pitch in, Duke's about to click as a team. We should be able to match UVA and UNC in consistency once ACC games begin. IMO.

Troublemaker, we don't have a really good idea how a Duke team would fare seeded lower than #1-3. Of K's 31 tournaments, Duke was a #1 seed 13 times; a #2, nine times; and a #3 six times. Only three times was Duke seeded lower than #3: #8 in 1996; #6 in 2007 and #5 in 1987. True, only once did we make the Sweet 16 as a lower seed, but we only have three data points. It is not as if we have a lot of experience as a #8 seed, which is good.

Olympic Fan
11-28-2015, 12:35 AM
Not a great day for the ACC, but we did pick up a couple of nice wins -- Notre Dame bouncing back from its first loss to beat Iowa and Syracuse beating a second straight ranked opponent to win the Battle 4 Atlantis -- the fifth preseason tournament title for an ACC team.

Three very predictable losses -- VPI is in no position to beat a top 10 Iowa State and Georgia Tech was expected to lose to No. 11 Villanova. BC has been playing better than expected, but they are still not very good -- their loss to UC Irvine was hardly a shot.

The one bad loss was Miami losing to Northeastern ... which coincidentally was coming off a loss to Miami (Miami of Ohio). Tough loss on a last second shot (and watching the replay, it looked very much like the NE player used his body to push back the defender and create space for the shot). Still, no excuse for Miami to be in that position, especially at home.

Just three games Saturday ... two are kind of blah -- Kent State at Pitt and VPI-UAB in the third place game of the tourney in Florida. One good matchup -- 4-0 St. Louis is at 4-0 Louisville.

The ACC is now 63-17 overall ... 6-5 against ranked opponents ... and 15-6 against other major conferences.

PS I watched most of Arizona's overtime victory over Santa Clara last night and I've been watching them battle Providence tonight (pretty good game at the half -- Arizona up one). The thing, in the game and a half I've watched, Arizona's best player -- by far -- is Boston College transfer Ryan Anderson. Interesting ...

Olympic Fan
11-29-2015, 12:29 AM
The ACC goes 3-0 Saturday ... none of the wins have much significance. I guess the most interesting one was VPI's overtime victory over UAB. The Hokies haven't been terrible since their opening night defeat. I also notice that Seth Allen has not been playing (he was terrible in their opener). Is he hurt ... or just relegated to the end of the bench?

pfrduke
11-29-2015, 01:19 AM
The ACC goes 3-0 Saturday ... none of the wins have much significance. I guess the most interesting one was VPI's overtime victory over UAB. The Hokies haven't been terrible since their opening night defeat. I also notice that Seth Allen has not been playing (he was terrible in their opener). Is he hurt ... or just relegated to the end of the bench?

Not sure what you're talking about re Allen - he's played in each of Virginia Tech's 6 games and more than 20 minutes in 5 of the 6. In the UAB game, he led the Hokies with 23 points.

ChillinDuke
11-29-2015, 11:46 AM
All in all, I'd say the ACC as a conference has exceeded my expectations for where we'd be at this point in the season. This year continues to look wide open. Given the national setting and my expectation that the ACC was looking at a "down" year, the current conference record is a pleasant surprise.

The ACC/B1G Challenge will really help to cap off the early phase of the season. If the ACC can tread water and split (or even win) the Challenge, I'd feel safe in saying the conference looks much better than I expected. And good, period. If the ACC loses the Challenge by a game, I'd say mehh decent showing to date. If we get blown out, I'd say the goodwill we've built up as a conference thus far is largely back to flat.

- Chillin

Troublemaker
11-29-2015, 09:05 PM
Grrr, Notre Dame just lost to a middling SEC team in Alabama. In typical ND fashion, they couldn't guard a pretty bad offense, which led to the loss.