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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 86, Georgetown 84 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-22-2015, 03:12 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

ChicagoCrazy84
11-22-2015, 03:15 PM
Nice win but honestly, it got to the point where I just didn't care anymore. College basketball the last 3 minutes of a game has become insufferable. Foul, 3 pointer, foul, 3 pointer, foul, 3 pointer. Never ends. I can't watch it.

Wahoo2000
11-22-2015, 03:21 PM
Nice win but honestly, it got to the point where I just didn't care anymore. College basketball the last 3 minutes of a game has become insufferable. Foul, 3 pointer, foul, 3 pointer, foul, 3 pointer. Never ends. I can't watch it.

It's worse than usual this year because the points of emphasis are making it nearly impossible to stop a driver with a head of steam without being whistled for a foul when he throws his body into the defender. If you can get stops when you're up, and extend (rather than maintain) the lead with FTs, the other team gives up a lot quicker.

They're really going to need to do something about how much advantage the ballhandler has on drives the way things are currently being called. I would THINK it'll settle down a bit as the season progresses, but we'll see.

As an aside, if you get down in a game right now, it seems like a good idea is to take your best FT shooting guard and tell him to put his head down and drive - if he sees a defender, jump into him/initiate contact, they're getting that call 99.999999% of the time right now.

CameronCrazy'11
11-22-2015, 03:22 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 03:23 PM
Thornton cracked under the pressure, but we won...hopefully it makes him better.

Overall, it's a relief to be 4-1 at this point. Before the season, if you told me Ingram/Jeter (and Kennard offensively) wouldn't be a factor, I would've thought we would be in huge trouble. There's something endearing about the non-star returners all stepping up. Grayson had a good title game, but I doubt anyone expected him to play like this.

ChicagoCrazy84
11-22-2015, 03:27 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.

The three shots isn't a bad idea. It's tough though because as long as you're trying to make a play on the ball, a ref can't say it's intentional. Differentiating the 2 would be hard.

CoachJ10
11-22-2015, 03:27 PM
Good to see some fight in our guys in the second half.

Thornton and Grayson are the keys to our offense so far. If we are going have Amile and Marshall on the court, the aforementioned two are going to have to do a lot of individual creating to keep the offense attacking.

I do think Chase and Brandon are going to be big contributors over time. Chase has some skills...I think pairing him up with Amile or Marshall might give some opportunities on offense that he can exploit. Besides the obvious strength isssue...I think Brandon needs to find the fire in his belly. Once he does that, he will be far more efective on offense.

The refs called a lot of fouls today...balanced for the most part. But why they still let so many illegal/moving screens go, I can't understand. Outside of travelling, it is my personal bugaboo currently.

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 03:28 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.Hasn't the game always been like this? Why change it now? Take care of the ball/make your free throws and you go home with a win every time. We basically had a 4 guard lineup - this should be advantage Duke.

ChicagoCrazy84
11-22-2015, 03:30 PM
It's worse than usual this year because the points of emphasis are making it nearly impossible to stop a driver with a head of steam without being whistled for a foul when he throws his body into the defender. If you can get stops when you're up, and extend (rather than maintain) the lead with FTs, the other team gives up a lot quicker.

They're really going to need to do something about how much advantage the ballhandler has on drives the way things are currently being called. I would THINK it'll settle down a bit as the season progresses, but we'll see.

As an aside, if you get down in a game right now, it seems like a good idea is to take your best FT shooting guard and tell him to put his head down and drive - if he sees a defender, jump into him/initiate contact, they're getting that call 99.999999% of the time right now.

Yep so true. One on one defense is nearly impossible in college basketball.

ChicagoCrazy84
11-22-2015, 03:34 PM
Hasn't the game always been like this? Why change it now? Take care of the ball/make your free throws and you go home with a win every time. We basically had a 4 guard lineup - this should be advantage Duke.

That is true but even if you're making every single one of your FT's (and that's easier said than done) the other team in theory is getting an advantage because they can go down and just shoot a 3 and if that happens continuously you're gaining 1 pt every possession.

OldPhiKap
11-22-2015, 03:37 PM
That is true but even if you're making every single one of your FT's (and that's easier said than done) the other team in theory is getting an advantage because they can go down and just shoot a 3 and if that happens continuously you're gaining 1 pt every possession.

Well, Jimmy Valvano figured that out in '83 and it hasn't changed since. Unless they change the rules and allow the fouled team to just take the ball out, this is no different than every other game in the last 30-plus years.

We win a thrilling game, and the start of this thread is someone crabbing? SMH.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-22-2015, 03:37 PM
Thought we played really well and eeked one out against a very sharp Georgetown team that was the better team for chunks of the game.

First 8 minutes of the second half was a glimpse of this team's potential - very impressive.

Still learning, still growing, very good win.

moonpie23
11-22-2015, 03:37 PM
tough, gritty game.......fun to watch this team finding themselves....

next play!!!!

vick
11-22-2015, 03:38 PM
Yep so true. One on one defense is nearly impossible in college basketball.

The average difference in offensive efficiency between this year and last (both up to the current date) amounts to slightly more than one made two point basket per team per game. Seems a bit overwrought.

jv001
11-22-2015, 03:38 PM
Great job by Coach K in this tournament. First he inserts Thornton to the starting rotation. Then today, the 1-3-1 really hurt GTown's Momentum. This team has a high ceiling and I can't wait to see it unfold. GoDuke!

CoachJ10
11-22-2015, 03:38 PM
That is true but even if you're making every single one of your FT's (and that's easier said than done) the other team in theory is getting an advantage because they can go down and just shoot a 3 and if that happens continuously you're gaining 1 pt every possession.

I think Jay Williams and Duke were happy about the opportunity to come back in the last minute in 2001. The twerps, not so much.

devildeac
11-22-2015, 03:39 PM
That is true but even if you're making every single one of your FT's (and that's easier said than done) the other team in theory is getting an advantage because they can go down and just shoot a 3 and if that happens continuously you're gaining 1 pt every possession.

Another option would be to award 2 shots AND the ball for fouls committed for simply grabbing/pushing a player with no intent of going for the ball.

moonpie23
11-22-2015, 03:40 PM
Another option would be to award 2 shots AND the ball for fouls committed for simply grabbing/pushing a player with no intent of going for the ball.

i like that......

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 03:42 PM
That is true but even if you're making every single one of your FT's (and that's easier said than done) the other team in theory is getting an advantage because they can go down and just shoot a 3 and if that happens continuously you're gaining 1 pt every possession.How many teams are going to get that hot though? They usually need to force a few turnovers or have a team melt down at the line. If a team can have both happen - perhaps they deserve a chance to win?

FireOgilvie
11-22-2015, 03:44 PM
Grayson was awesome.

Jeter was solid and made a nice argument for more PT. The put-back dunk he made in the first half was fantastic.

Another very good game by Thornton. We look lost when he's not in there. It seems like there's confusion as to who should be handling the ball when he's not in the game. Matt Jones is very good when he sticks to his defense and 3pt shooter roles, but he struggles a lot at PG.

Would like to see Kennard look to get the ball in his hands more. He's very good when he plays aggressively, like when he made the nice drive to the basket in the first half. But other than that, he was running away from the ball a lot today and this was probably his worst overall game. He did hit all of his free throws though.

Ingram was better today, but still making a lot of mental mistakes.

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 03:46 PM
I think Jay Williams and Duke were happy about the opportunity to come back in the last minute in 2001. The twerps, not so much.Exactly - how you feel about it probably depends on how it last impacted your team. Personally, I love having a chance to win when we are down 7-8 with a few minutes left. 3 free throws or taking the ball out pretty much puts an end to that.

Ima Facultiwyfe
11-22-2015, 03:50 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.

...or give the fouled team the shots AND the ball out of bounds. Everybody in the place knows the fouls are intentional. That's the rule. Just follow it.

Love, Ima

gocanes0506
11-22-2015, 03:52 PM
The thing to make that game go faster is 3/4 court pressure. It makes the O fight up the court. We settled back into the D and they had a 4 second offense. 3/4 court may give up a layup every once in a while but it forces more time to get up court and get set in the O.

arnie
11-22-2015, 03:52 PM
Hasn't the game always been like this? Why change it now? Take care of the ball/make your free throws and you go home with a win every time. We basically had a 4 guard lineup - this should be advantage Duke.

Should be an advantage, but we historically give up a boat load of points in last several minutes when we have smallish lead. Then we need to play better defense (last 5 secs) and we do. Don't recall this so much last year, but prior years occurred often. In a way, glad Thornton missed the throws, he will remember that and should help his focus. He is the key to our success.

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 03:56 PM
...or give the fouled team the shots AND the ball out of bounds. Everybody in the place knows the fouls are intentional. That's the rule. Just follow it.

Love, ImaHow would you distinguish an intentional foul from a team playing defense without worrying about fouling?

Ultrarunner
11-22-2015, 04:00 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.

Be easier to give the offense the option of the ball with a clock reset to 30 seconds, or the free throws for all non-shooting fouls. If that rule were in place today, the game would have finished much sooner.

DavidBenAkiva
11-22-2015, 04:01 PM
Well, duh. But how great has he been shooting the ball?

In games not against Kentucky this year, Allen is shooting 58.6% from the floor, 53.9% from 3 point range, 94.4% from the free throw line, and a true shooting percentage of 78.6%. He doing that while averaging 29 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and a steal per game.

Those numbers are amazing.

cbarry
11-22-2015, 04:02 PM
I'd be in favor of the player who is fouled in the final 2 minutes of the games getting 3 FT regardless of whether he was shooting or not, regardless of intentionality (unless it's flagrant of course). That would put an end to the relentless fouling, yet still give trailing teams a shot.


The three shots isn't a bad idea. It's tough though because as long as you're trying to make a play on the ball, a ref can't say it's intentional. Differentiating the 2 would be hard.

mo.st.dukie
11-22-2015, 04:04 PM
Great game. I don't really understand the complaints about end-of-game fouling. That's always been a strategy in basketball and I don't think it's a bad thing at all. It forces the team in the lead to still make free throws. Obviously Duke shouldn't have fouled on the defensive end and that added to the clock stoppage but that's just mistakes by Duke. Not sure what people want, I don't think you reward a team for simply being in the lead under 2 minutes and punish the team trying to use strategy to make a comeback.

Bluedevil114
11-22-2015, 04:06 PM
It was great to see some shots go in for Kennard. His shots inside of the arc along with perfect from the line including four big ones in the last two minutes of the game. His stroke is pure.

Grayson needs the ball in his hands when the offense is struggling. The zone forced Grayson to hang on the side and made us one dimensional with no option at the top of the key with Ingram on the bench. Ingram has to be our zone buster where he can either throw it to the wing or turn and shoot.

Jeter has moves and lots of energy. He will get more burn over the next few games.

I think Matt forced Shots today and did not go hard enough to the rim when he had opportunities.

Great win today as this team continues to improve. Make your free throws and go home and celebrate. Nothing wrong with the rules. We should not have fouled them late in the game that is the difference between this game and games in the past. Coach K teams do not foul when we are winning late in the game.

Listen to Quants
11-22-2015, 04:10 PM
Well, duh. But how great has he been shooting the ball?

In games not against Kentucky this year, Allen is shooting 58.6% from the floor, 53.9% from 3 point range, 94.4% from the free throw line, and a true shooting percentage of 78.6%. He doing that while averaging 29 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and a steal per game.

Those numbers are amazing. Indeed, perhaps beyond amazing:cool: And he is taking really good shots, except as you note, in the Kentucky game. I absolutely loved that today he didn't just go gunning after he hit that burst of 3s, assist, and D in the second half but just continued to take good shots. His rebounding and assists are also excellent. It's awful early for All American talk, but Dickie V has a point.

huey
11-22-2015, 04:15 PM
Grayson is so good, I'm not even sure he was still injured. The lift he was getting on those jumpshots was impressive. Though I still think he was nursing the hammy a little bit since he wasn't driving as aggressively, no dunks, and his defense was a step slow.
And with all of that he scores 32 points on 12 shots! And I'm pretty sure all his 3-point attempts were from NBA range. That line seems to mess with all the players...everyone wants to prove their range for the NBA scouts. But difference for us, is Grayson really does have that range!

eddiehaskell
11-22-2015, 04:19 PM
A more athletic JJ (granted, I hate how white players are always compared to players of the same race lol).

uh_no
11-22-2015, 04:23 PM
Be easier to give the offense the option of the ball with a clock reset to 30 seconds, or the free throws for all non-shooting fouls. If that rule were in place today, the game would have finished much sooner.

no it wouldn't.

There are two options:
1) team takes the shot, no different from today
2) team inbounds the ball, other team just fouls again

you'd end up with a LONGER game. Today at least when the trailing team has the ball, a decent amount of time runs off the clock, now, <1s would run off between each foul....until either:
a) we play the remaining time in 1 second intervals
b) the winning team gives up and shoots free throws, which was just a circuitous route to what we have today anyway.

If you hate end games today, this is NOT the thing to do.

sagegrouse
11-22-2015, 04:32 PM
A more athletic JJ (granted, I hate how white players are always compared to players of the same race lol).

Grayson seems more like Gerald Henderson to me, but I'll take another JJ any time.

mr. synellinden
11-22-2015, 04:32 PM
They really need to do something about all the intentional fouling in the last two minutes. Either give the offense three shots or run 15 seconds off the clock.

In any other circumstance, an intentional foul results in 2 shots and the ball. Why don't they just make that the rule? I guess you'd have the issue of a ref's judgment about what is intentional - but they are required to make that judgement at any point in the game. This seems like an obvious solution to me.

Bob Green
11-22-2015, 04:34 PM
The 1-3-1 zone defense was very effective. I hope we see more of it going forward because this team has the personnel to run it. Amile Jefferson and Brandon Ingram have the length to be disruptive up top while Matt Jones has the tenacity to be very good as the bottom 1. To successfully run the 1-3-1, the 1 on the baseline has to be good.

mr. synellinden
11-22-2015, 04:35 PM
Another option would be to award 2 shots AND the ball for fouls committed for simply grabbing/pushing a player with no intent of going for the ball.

My post was the same idea - sorry for the duplicate, but I think this is the best solution.

porkpa
11-22-2015, 04:38 PM
Grayson frightens me almost to death. Everytime he gets the ball, I think he is going to kill himself. The kid has no fear and shows no regard for his personal safety. I don't believe I've ever seen a player play quite the way he dos.

TruBlu
11-22-2015, 04:42 PM
It's worse than usual this year because the points of emphasis are making it nearly impossible to stop a driver with a head of steam without being whistled for a foul when he throws his body into the defender. If you can get stops when you're up, and extend (rather than maintain) the lead with FTs, the other team gives up a lot quicker.

They're really going to need to do something about how much advantage the ballhandler has on drives the way things are currently being called. I would THINK it'll settle down a bit as the season progresses, but we'll see.

As an aside, if you get down in a game right now, it seems like a good idea is to take your best FT shooting guard and tell him to put his head down and drive - if he sees a defender, jump into him/initiate contact, they're getting that call 99.999999% of the time right now.

One way to even it up would be to start calling the palming that the ball handlers get away with way to frequently.

devildeac
11-22-2015, 04:46 PM
My post was the same idea - sorry for the duplicate, but I think this is the best solution.

Not a problem. Refs gotta make (more) judgment calls then-going for ball/steal/block or just hacking/grabbing a guy?

uh_no
11-22-2015, 04:47 PM
In any other circumstance, an intentional foul results in 2 shots and the ball. Why don't they just make that the rule? I guess you'd have the issue of a ref's judgment about what is intentional - but they are required to make that judgement at any point in the game. This seems like an obvious solution to me.

no. the intentional foul does not exist anymore. it's either flagrant I/II or not

in fact, the only reference to "intent" which results in a foul is

f. Intentionally slapping or striking the backboard.
which is a technical foul

What it can be is a flagrant foul:


A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that
is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely
on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to: Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player,
specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;

How do you judge whether it's a legitimate attempt? I don't know...but if you can come up with rules that work in all cases, I'd love to hear them.

devildeac
11-22-2015, 04:49 PM
The 1-3-1 zone defense was very effective. I hope we see more of it going forward because this team has the personnel to run it. Amile Jefferson and Brandon Ingram have the length to be disruptive up top while Matt Jones has the tenacity to be very good as the bottom 1. To successfully run the 1-3-1, the 1 on the baseline has to be good.

Did we run this D at times in the 09/10 season with LT up top and JS running the baseline?

NYBri
11-22-2015, 04:53 PM
I also like Ingram at the foul line to attack the zone. He can spot or drive. Better choice than Jefferson.

uh_no
11-22-2015, 04:57 PM
not that you needed KP to tell you this, but KP defense got anihilated after the game...dropping from 19 to 36.

is this going to be a rivers/parker type year, or a okafor/winslow year?

At least we know we CAN turn it around....lots of season left to go though.

-jk
11-22-2015, 04:57 PM
Grayson frightens me almost to death. Everytime he gets the ball, I think he is going to kill himself. The kid has no fear and shows no regard for his personal safety. I don't believe I've ever seen a player play quite the way he dos.

"Wo-jo bounc-es! clap clap clap-clap-clap"

-jk

-jk
11-22-2015, 05:05 PM
not that you needed KP to tell you this, but KP defense got annihilated after the game...dropping from 19 to 36.

is this going to be a rivers/parker type year, or a okafor/winslow year?

At least we know we CAN turn it around...lots of season left to go though.

Defense comes slowly to frosh. I encourage patience. (And 19 to 36 isn't that awful, especially this early in the season and before KP is fully connected...)

-jk

hsheffield
11-22-2015, 05:07 PM
the almost flagrant foul that led to a little chat with the official with 9:50 left was what? it looked to me like Grayson intentionally shoved Peak down to the ground with his right hand.


then with 4:53 remaining, Grayson goes for his right handed scoop shot to the basket and appears to push #33 down with his left hand while he's rising up to the basket.


perhaps this happens all the time everywhere and I'm just late to the party? Most of you are a lot more basketball savvy than I, so I'd appreciate some help with context here

Potato Head
11-22-2015, 05:08 PM
is this going to be a rivers/parker type year, or a okafor/winslow year?

Seems pretty obvious to me that we're firmly in between right now, although it could certainly change as the season goes along. We're clearly less talented than last year, but still have a nice blend of talent and experience and have shown enough moxie already to win against good teams.

And to chip in on the end-of-game debate, the solution to me for some time to all boredom related basketball issues has been to reduce the number of timeouts each team gets over the course of a game, perhaps significantly.

Bob Green
11-22-2015, 05:26 PM
Did we run this D at times in the 09/10 season with LT up top and JS running the baseline?

Yes! But I believe Matt Jones will be much better than Jon Scheyer running the baseline. Jones is a more physical player and playing the bottom 1 in the 1-3-1 gets you matched up against the opponents interior players. I believe this year's roster has the personnel to excel in the 1-3-1.

NashvilleDevil
11-22-2015, 05:36 PM
Thornton cracked under the pressure, but we won...hopefully it makes him better.

Overall, it's a relief to be 4-1 at this point. Before the season, if you told me Ingram/Jeter (and Kennard offensively) wouldn't be a factor, I would've thought we would be in huge trouble. There's something endearing about the non-star returners all stepping up. Grayson had a good title game, but I doubt anyone expected him to play like this.

I don't think he cracked under pressure. If he missed all of his free throws in the last minutes than that is cracking.

camion
11-22-2015, 05:43 PM
no it wouldn't.

There are two options:
1) team takes the shot, no different from today
2) team inbounds the ball, other team just fouls again

you'd end up with a LONGER game. Today at least when the trailing team has the ball, a decent amount of time runs off the clock, now, <1s would run off between each foul...until either:
a) we play the remaining time in 1 second intervals
b) the winning team gives up and shoots free throws, which was just a circuitous route to what we have today anyway.

If you hate end games today, this is NOT the thing to do.

Okay. As one who hates the interminable fouling I propose giving the fouled team a choice.

1. Take the free throws.
2. Take the ball out of bounds and (optional) 15 second runoff.


As far as the game goes I thought we looked good, but young. Or young, but good. I'm sure there will be more exciting and/or disappointing games due to our inexperience.

uh_no
11-22-2015, 06:16 PM
Okay. As one who hates the interminable fouling I propose giving the fouled team a choice.

1. Take the free throws.
2. Take the ball out of bounds and (optional) 15 second runoff.


As far as the game goes I thought we looked good, but young. Or young, but good. I'm sure there will be more exciting and/or disappointing games due to our inexperience.

Sure. at least this suggestion is viable!

I'm not sure whether I like it or not...as a fan of fundies, I like teams to have to make their FTs to win...but snooooze.

Maybe 15 second runoff, but the other team can burn a timeout to force FTs? That way, you can only force free throws to the degree that you still have timeouts left? It's getting a bit gimicky....but it could work...

dukelifer
11-22-2015, 06:26 PM
tough, gritty game....fun to watch this team finding themselves...

next play!!!!

Always better when they find themselves AND win. That said - two games in a row they played better in the second half. There are first half teams and second half teams. This may be a second half team. Grayson is playing with a ton of confidence. Some combination of JJ and Gerald Henderson. Jeter impressed me today. Did not look scared and played with intensity. He will come into his own in the next couple years. GT played well and shot the ball over 50 percent. Most nights that is a loss. Duke won and every win is a step in the right direction. So far I am enjoying watching the growing process

devildeac
11-22-2015, 06:28 PM
Yes! But I believe Matt Jones will be much better than Jon Scheyer running the baseline. Jones is a more physical player and playing the bottom 1 in the 1-3-1 gets you matched up against the opponents interior players. I believe this year's roster has the personnel to excel in the 1-3-1.

Thanks! I didn't think I misremembered. I also like the idea of Jones at the bottom of the 1-3-1.

COYS
11-22-2015, 06:29 PM
I'm a big fan of advanced stats and the dork polls, but this past weekend was one where I am content seeing the team get two big wins. Today just like yesterday, our guys weathered a jump shooting barrage by Georgetown. J's switch to the zone was smart as it all but eliminated their drives to the hoop. They were hot for a bit longer, but when we went from the 2-3 to the 1-3-1, it started getting ugly.

We're scoring at a nice clip, but I still think our offense is a bit disjointed. Grayson showed impressive improvement with his decision making this weekend, particularly today. Early on he made a point to drive and kick. I thought he was being too unselfish on occasion. But it was nice to see him make some nice passes. Then, of course, once he flipped the scoring switch he was unstoppable. Still, despite Grayson's excellent play, the offense lacks creativity. When the Hoyas went to a zone, we struggled to attack it consistently. We also let the zone take Grayson out of the game. I expected Brandon to be perfect for busting the zone from the around the foul line, but despite a made jumper, he was inconsistent in his decision making and less of scoring threat from that area than I thought he would be. I'm totally fine letting Derryck grow into his roll and don't expect him to be an offensive wizard just yet. But I am a little surprised how hard it has been to get Brandon integrated.

We also need another shooter to step up that is not named Matt or Grayson. They've been fantastic so far, but they're the only real threats. I commend Derryck for picking his three point shots carefully, but unless completely wide open, he doesn't seem comfortable shooting. Luke has skills, but he's been off. And Brandon has struggled from everywhere. For us to really be a top offensive team, we need outside shooting. And Grayson and Matt, as awesome as they've been, can't shoot like this forever. I'm hopeful that both Luke and Brandon have breakout games against weaker competition, get their confidence up, and give us the additional perimeter threats we'll need.

HK Dukie
11-22-2015, 06:39 PM
Good article by Eamonn Brennan...

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/109179/duke-is-no-juggarnaut-but-grayson-allen-is

Interesting quote...

Coach K's discussion with Grayson... "I said, 'Look at your face. Is that how you want to look?' He said, 'I can't believe it.' I said, well, that's what I'm looking at. And also that's what Kentucky is looking at. That's what your teammates are looking at. And when you're an outstanding player, you win not just by how you perform, you win by how you look and how you act."

moonpie23
11-22-2015, 06:44 PM
the almost flagrant foul that led to a little chat with the official with 9:50 left was what? it looked to me like Grayson intentionally shoved Peak down to the ground with his right hand.




i don't agree with that....he had his hand on his hip, but didn't look like he put any force into it...

uh_no
11-22-2015, 06:45 PM
Good article by Eamonn Brennan...

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/109179/duke-is-no-juggarnaut-but-grayson-allen-is

Interesting quote...

Coach K's discussion with Grayson... "I said, 'Look at your face. Is that how you want to look?' He said, 'I can't believe it.' I said, well, that's what I'm looking at. And also that's what Kentucky is looking at. That's what your teammates are looking at. And when you're an outstanding player, you win not just by how you perform, you win by how you look and how you act."

oh man....that sounds terrible when taken out of context

wsb3
11-22-2015, 06:49 PM
I don't think he cracked under pressure. If he missed all of his free throws in the last minutes than that is cracking.

I agree & even though he missed I believe it was Thornton that played really good D on their last shot. I really like what I see out of him so far.

Furniture
11-22-2015, 06:54 PM
I don't think he cracked under pressure. If he missed all of his free throws in the last minutes than that is cracking.

I agree. I am calling it. At some point we will be calling him Derryck Stones...almost today actually..almost!

uh_no
11-22-2015, 07:12 PM
I agree & even though he missed I believe it was Thornton that played really good D on their last shot. I really like what I see out of him so far.

i need to see more facilitating! he's averaging 3 assists a game, and has an a:to ~1 (exactly 1 discounting the cupcakes last week).

Ultrarunner
11-22-2015, 07:18 PM
no it wouldn't.

There are two options:
1) team takes the shot, no different from today
2) team inbounds the ball, other team just fouls again

you'd end up with a LONGER game. Today at least when the trailing team has the ball, a decent amount of time runs off the clock, now, <1s would run off between each foul...until either:
a) we play the remaining time in 1 second intervals
b) the winning team gives up and shoots free throws, which was just a circuitous route to what we have today anyway.

If you hate end games today, this is NOT the thing to do.

A small though experiment. Playing the game in one second increments, how many players would an opposing team have left in fifteen seconds elapsed time? Thirty? And how would the fans react to such a scenario? Poorly would be my guess.

How long did the final two minutes take to play today? Twenty minutes? Takes a lot longer to walk to the free throw line and shoot than it does to put the ball back out of bounds and start over.

You establish it as an either/or. The defense gains nothing by deliberately fouling. In fact, the one thing that they must have, the ball so they can score themselves, would never be turned over to them. The rational end result would be for the defense to play for steals and take their chances on unintentional fouls.

Neals384
11-22-2015, 07:34 PM
Missed the game due to a recording snafu (my newspaper listed the two 2K Classic games without naming the teams and I assumed the championship would be the second game).

Looking at the gamelog, I note that coach did the usual offense/defense sub at the end-of-game: Ingram for offense and Jeter for defense. Nice to see that Chase is getting some cred for his D.

flyingdutchdevil
11-22-2015, 07:42 PM
Missed the game due to a recording snafu (my newspaper listed the two 2K Classic games without naming the teams and I assumed the championship would be the second game).

Looking at the gamelog, I note that coach did the usual offense/defense sub at the end-of-game: Ingram for offense and Jeter for defense. Nice to see that Chase is getting some cred for his D.

Both Amile and MP3 fouled out by that point.

stillcrazie
11-22-2015, 07:47 PM
Grayson is so good, I'm not even sure he was still injured. The lift he was getting on those jumpshots was impressive. Though I still think he was nursing the hammy a little bit since he wasn't driving as aggressively, no dunks, and his defense was a step slow.
And with all of that he scores 32 points on 12 shots! And I'm pretty sure all his 3-point attempts were from NBA range. That line seems to mess with all the players...everyone wants to prove their range for the NBA scouts. But difference for us, is Grayson really does have that range!

I noticed Grayson sniffing a lot and his nose looked a little swollen. I think the guy may have had a cold.

elvis14
11-22-2015, 08:27 PM
Good article by Eamonn Brennan...

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/109179/duke-is-no-juggarnaut-but-grayson-allen-is

Interesting quote...

Coach K's discussion with Grayson... "I said, 'Look at your face. Is that how you want to look?' He said, 'I can't believe it.' I said, well, that's what I'm looking at. And also that's what Kentucky is looking at. That's what your teammates are looking at. And when you're an outstanding player, you win not just by how you perform, you win by how you look and how you act."

Read that article earlier and loved it. Every now and then we get a nice glimpse into who Coach K does what he does and it's always interesting. I would say that the talk K had with Grayson had a positive effect.

Love that the team won this early season championship. Always good to celebrate winning. I see the team growing with each game and I see where this team has a very high ceiling. Hope they can reach that ceiling. Really happy with the progress that Thornton has displayed. Can't wait for Ingram, Kennard and Jeter to hit their stride. I still think Ingram will be fantastic once he gets going. Grayson.....he's already got it going. First player to have back to back 30 point games since JJ was wearing Duke blue!

Neals384
11-22-2015, 08:31 PM
I could use a little help figuring the +/- for this game. GoDuke has a typo on the substitutions after Duke's timeout near the end of the first half:

00:22 TIMEOUT
00:22 SUB IN : Luke Kennard
00:22 SUB OUT: Chase Jeter
00:22 SUB OUT: Matt Jones
00:22 SUB OUT: Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Chase Jeter
00:05 SUB IN : Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Matt Jones
00:05 SUB OUT: Grayson Allen

Obviously you can't take three out and put one in. These typos aren't that uncommon, but usually I can figure it out by seeing who makes a subsequent play, or by going to the video. Or by realizing that one of the "OUT"s must have been an "IN". None of my sleuthing works on this one, and as I mentioned upthread, I didn't get a video of this one.

So my question is this: who was on the floor for Duke at the end of the first half. I need all five players from 22 seconds left up to 5 seconds left, and then the lineup for the final 5 seconds.

If anyone has the game recorded and can check this for me, I'd appreciate it!

Atlanta Duke
11-22-2015, 08:42 PM
Coach K's discussion with Grayson... "I said, 'Look at your face. Is that how you want to look?' He said, 'I can't believe it.' I said, well, that's what I'm looking at. And also that's what Kentucky is looking at. That's what your teammates are looking at. And when you're an outstanding player, you win not just by how you perform, you win by how you look and how you act."

So Grayson Allen got the Bobby Hurley lecture from Coach K?

When he saw Hurley’s pouty faces during games, he put together a tape of all his sour expressions. He told him. “When someone sees you look that way they see weakness, and you’re too good to show weakness.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article10232564.html#storylink=cpy

Hopefully the results of the conversation turn out as well

Newton_14
11-22-2015, 08:51 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Great win, and great tourney. I thought the kids showed some moxie out there today, and really Friday night also. Getting down 9 or 10 does not seem to impact them from the standpoint of: they don't panic. Good sign for a team this young. I thought Georgetown played as well as they could possible play in that first half, including shooting jumpshots, and our kids took the punches, battled their way back, and held their own, even in the face of the buzzer beater, then came out throwing haymakers in half two.

Grayson of course, was the difference. What a start to the season, Kentucky game aside. He is just killing it. Smooth 3's from any distance, mid-range pullup rise and shoot, and of course the incredible driving ability. Plus he passes it, defends, and rebounds. He was very efficient today. Special player. There were some team things to like today as well (defense not withstanding). I know we carry on the Jumbo tradition of "Season Phases" still, breaking the schedule up accordingly, but honestly, I thought Phase II started Friday Night when Thornton started at PG, ending Phase I where Matt & Grayson shared that role. What a world of difference with Thornton playing the PG spot well. Don't lose sight either that we are now starting a 17 yr old High School Sr at PG and he is getting better and better as he gets more comfortable. It changes the team dynamic in a big way. We have moved from a Sweet Sixteen-ish team to a Elite-8ish team with that move alone. I think to move to Final Four-ish land, Chase Jeter has to play his way into a prominent role in the rotation, if not starter. He may or may not achieve that, but I really liked the minutes he gave in the first half today. Having him as a Post Presence that can score, will change the team dynamic again, and that, along with Thornton, will space the floor in a way that makes Grayson practically impossible to guard, even against tough competition. But, not going to get ahead of myself, as I want to enjoy this ride to the fullest.

I think this weekend was a nice bounce back from the Kentucky game, and progression. We played really well, despite the fact we got little to nothing in the way of offense or defense really from Ingram or Kennard, and I am telling you, it is only a matter of time before those two guys figure it out and start impacting games. No doubt in my mind that happens for both this season, and sooner, rather than later. Ingram is trying to figure out on the fly what is going to work against College Defenses. Once he does, and gets into a rhythm, we will see a different player. Kennard just needs his shot to start falling, and see the ball go into the basket. He seems to be doing a lot of things well, and is in the right spot on the floor on both ends, frequently, and is for the most part taking good shots. We will have better offensive balance when those two get going and Grayson won't have to score 30 to keep us in games.

The glaring issue right now is defense. It has to improve. I thought the 1-3-1 was our best defense of the day and it rattled Georgetown. I wish we had went back to that during that horrendous final 59 seconds of the game when Georgetown decided to foul within one second every single possession vs at least playing defense for 5 seconds trying to get a steal. That was brutal to watch. It is going to take this team quite awhile to come together defensively (and don't forget last year's team did not figure it out until the NCAA Tourney). We have good defensive players. What we don't have is good team defense. They are still very much trying to learn how to play together on both sides of the ball. They took a big step in the right direction this weekend on offense, but not on defense (save for the 1-3-1). I love the fact that K now realizes it is ok to play zone and some teams need to play it. This is one of those teams, at least right now. Use that length. The freshmen are lost in the man to man, and only somewhat lost in the zones. It is going to require a lot of patience and forgetting about Kenpom numbers for awhile, while these guys put in the work to improve on that side of the ball.

Our veterans Amile, Matt, MP3 are now grown men and I feel like we can count on them game in and game out on both ends. Grayson is other worldly and is pushing hard to join those 3 in consistency. If he can settle in and avg something like 20ppg, while improving on defense, and we get the improvement needed from Ingram, Kennard, Jeter, this team will really push good teams.



Going to be a fun season watching these kids develop.

Go Duke!

tbyers11
11-22-2015, 09:02 PM
Great win, and great tourney. I thought the kids showed some moxie out there today, and really Friday night also. Getting down 9 or 10 does not seem to impact them from the standpoint of: they don't panic. Good sign for a team this young. I thought Georgetown played as well as they could possible play in that first half, including shooting jumpshots, and our kids took the punches, battled their way back, and held their own, even in the face of the buzzer beater, then came out throwing haymakers in half two.

Grayson of course, was the difference. What a start to the season, Kentucky game aside. He is just killing it. Smooth 3's from any distance, mid-range pullup rise and shoot, and of course the incredible driving ability. Plus he passes it, defends, and rebounds. He was very efficient today. Special player. There were some team things to like today as well (defense not withstanding). I know we carry on the Jumbo tradition of "Season Phases" still, breaking the schedule up accordingly, but honestly, I thought Phase II started Friday Night when Thornton started at PG, ending Phase I where Matt & Grayson shared that role. What a world of difference with Thornton playing the PG spot well. Don't lose sight either that we are now starting a 17 yr old High School Sr at PG and he is getting better and better as he gets more comfortable. It changes the team dynamic in a big way. We have moved from a Sweet Sixteen-ish team to a Elite-8ish team with that move alone. I think to move to Final Four-ish land, Chase Jeter has to play his way into a prominent role in the rotation, if not starter. He may or may not achieve that, but I really liked the minutes he gave in the first half today. Having him as a Post Presence that can score, will change the team dynamic again, and that, along with Thornton, will space the floor in a way that makes Grayson practically impossible to guard, even against tough competition. But, not going to get ahead of myself, as I want to enjoy this ride to the fullest.

I think this weekend was a nice bounce back from the Kentucky game, and progression. We played really well, despite the fact we got little to nothing in the way of offense or defense really from Ingram or Kennard, and I am telling you, it is only a matter of time before those two guys figure it out and start impacting games. No doubt in my mind that happens for both this season, and sooner, rather than later. Ingram is trying to figure out on the fly what is going to work against College Defenses. Once he does, and gets into a rhythm, we will see a different player. Kennard just needs his shot to start falling, and see the ball go into the basket. He seems to be doing a lot of things well, and is in the right spot on the floor on both ends, frequently, and is for the most part taking good shots. We will have better offensive balance when those two get going and Grayson won't have to score 30 to keep us in games.

The glaring issue right now is defense. It has to improve. I thought the 1-3-1 was our best defense of the day and it rattled Georgetown. I wish we had went back to that during that horrendous final 59 seconds of the game when Georgetown decided to foul within one second every single possession vs at least playing defense for 5 seconds trying to get a steal. That was brutal to watch. It is going to take this team quite awhile to come together defensively (and don't forget last year's team did not figure it out until the NCAA Tourney). We have good defensive players. What we don't have is good team defense. They are still very much trying to learn how to play together on both sides of the ball. They took a big step in the right direction this weekend on offense, but not on defense (save for the 1-3-1). I love the fact that K now realizes it is ok to play zone and some teams need to play it. This is one of those teams, at least right now. Use that length. The freshmen are lost in the man to man, and only somewhat lost in the zones. It is going to require a lot of patience and forgetting about Kenpom numbers for awhile, while these guys put in the work to improve on that side of the ball.

Our veterans Amile, Matt, MP3 are now grown men and I feel like we can count on them game in and game out on both ends. Grayson is other worldly and is pushing hard to join those 3 in consistency. If he can settle in and avg something like 20ppg, while improving on defense, and we get the improvement needed from Ingram, Kennard, Jeter, this team will really push good teams.



Going to be a fun season watching these kids develop.

Go Duke!

Great post Newton_14. I agree with just about everything you wrote. Defense spotty. Allen stepping up huge. Team showing some grit at being down both games and bouncing back.

I do have a nit to pick with the bolded part above. We are a better team than we were a week ago as Thornton gets more comfortable. Finishing up his academics and missing the summer session the rest of the frosh had to adjust to the college game did appear to hamper him a bit. However, he is not 17. While he did re-classify it was back to original class by age. He turned 18 in May and is actually older than Ingram and Jeter.

lotusland
11-22-2015, 09:05 PM
It was interesting to me that, unlike the 2010 championship game, K did not choose to intentionally miss the second free throw although Thornton missed it unintentionally. K said he wanted to end the 2010 game in regulation rather than OT against Butler since it was essentially a home game for them. I would argue that OT was less favorable today with MP3 and Amile fouled out. I'm glad both games ended in our favor though !

arnie
11-22-2015, 09:15 PM
It was interesting to me that, unlike the 2010 championship game, K did not choose to intentionally miss the second free throw although Thornton missed it unintentionally. K said he wanted to end the 2010 game in regulation rather than OT against Butler since it was essentially a home game for them. I would argue that OT was less favorable today with MP3 and Amile fouled out. I'm glad both games ended in our favor though !
Nearly 6 seconds as FTs attempted today- much more time to set up for the shot. Believe Butler only had about 3 seconds.

Newton_14
11-22-2015, 09:21 PM
Great post Newton_14. I agree with just about everything you wrote. Defense spotty. Allen stepping up huge. Team showing some grit at being down both games and bouncing back.

I do have a nit to pick with the bolded part above. We are a better team than we were a week ago as Thornton gets more comfortable. Finishing up his academics and missing the summer session the rest of the frosh had to adjust to the college game did appear to hamper him a bit. However, he is not 17. While he did re-classify it was back to original class by age. He turned 18 in May and is actually older than Ingram and Jeter.

Ah good catch! Thanks! I thought I had read he had not turned 18 yet. So he was a High School Redshirt and then went back to original class. I turned 18 in April of my Sr year in High School and then proceeded to grow 3 inches and put on 20 pounds over that summer. My High School Coach told me he wished he would have Redshirted me as a Freshman. ( I did not play Varsity until my JR and SR year like normal back then, but still could have a been a year older as a JR/SR on Varsity had I done that. Could have played Varsity as a Soph in that scenario since I played varsity that age year anyway). So Thornton is similar to me in age in that regard, meaning he is still young for his class, but sounds like Ingram and Jeter are also.

DukieInBrasil
11-22-2015, 09:41 PM
Grayson seems more like Gerald Henderson to me, but I'll take another JJ any time.

Gerald was never as good at shooting 3s as Grayson is, nor as good at the FT line. The attack the rim mentality is similar, and a good comparison.

NSDukeFan
11-22-2015, 09:41 PM
not that you needed KP to tell you this, but KP defense got anihilated after the game...dropping from 19 to 36.

is this going to be a rivers/parker type year, or a okafor/winslow year?

At least we know we CAN turn it around...lots of season left to go though.
Just a reminder though that a Rivers type year means entering the ACCT at 26-5, a Parker type year means entering the ACCT at 24-7 and an Okafor/Winslow year means entering ACCT lay at 28-3, which are not huge differences in the seasons. It depends more if the team gets hot at the right time how well they are remembered.

So Grayson Allen got the Bobby Hurley lecture from Coach K?

When he saw Hurley’s pouty faces during games, he put together a tape of all his sour expressions. He told him. “When someone sees you look that way they see weakness, and you’re too good to show weakness.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article10232564.html#storylink=cpy
I would be okay with a couple more championships.
Hopefully the results of the conversation turn out as well
I would be okay with a couple more championships.

InSpades
11-22-2015, 10:15 PM
Was at the game and it reminded me of the game that JJ went off against Texas (was also lucky enough to be at that game). It seemed like everything Grayson threw up was going in...

The biggest difference is that Duke just stopped going to Grayson. On the 1st 8 possessions of the 2nd half Grayson had 2 3s, got fouled shooting a 3 (made all 3) and 3 assists. Duke scored 19 points on those 8 possessions. The last one was a Grayson assist to Marshall at 15:24. The next Grayson shot came at 4:56. More than 12 minutes since his last shot. How does he go 12 minutes without a shot? What's worse is that he was barely involved in the offense. Georgetown clearly had no answer for him... when he drove he got fouled or scored. When he took a 3 it went in. I know he can't do everything but... 12 minutes without a shot? 12 minutes without really even using a possession (he may have had a turnover in there). Color me baffled.

Amazing game by Grayson though. Really impressed how he has put the Kentucky game behind him. Hopefully the rest of the team can rise up closer to his level because he's playing incredibly well.

duke09hms
11-22-2015, 10:39 PM
Was at the game and it reminded me of the game that JJ went off against Texas (was also lucky enough to be at that game). It seemed like everything Grayson threw up was going in...

The biggest difference is that Duke just stopped going to Grayson. On the 1st 8 possessions of the 2nd half Grayson had 2 3s, got fouled shooting a 3 (made all 3) and 3 assists. Duke scored 19 points on those 8 possessions. The last one was a Grayson assist to Marshall at 15:24. The next Grayson shot came at 4:56. More than 12 minutes since his last shot. How does he go 12 minutes without a shot? What's worse is that he was barely involved in the offense. Georgetown clearly had no answer for him... when he drove he got fouled or scored. When he took a 3 it went in. I know he can't do everything but... 12 minutes without a shot? 12 minutes without really even using a possession (he may have had a turnover in there). Color me baffled.

Amazing game by Grayson though. Really impressed how he has put the Kentucky game behind him. Hopefully the rest of the team can rise up closer to his level because he's playing incredibly well.

I know what you mean, but I was glad to see us go away from Grayson for a bit. As long as we kept the lead, I wanted us to work through the growing pains of having other offensive contributors step up. To develop offensive flow instead of Grayson isos. For the team to do meaningful things this season (beat UNC, win the ACC, FF ...) we need multiple scoring options. If we run everything through Grayson on offense, he'll eventually have a bad performance in a crucial game.

Now, if we had lost this game, there's a chance I wouldn't be so pro-education.

FireOgilvie
11-22-2015, 10:45 PM
I could use a little help figuring the +/- for this game. GoDuke has a typo on the substitutions after Duke's timeout near the end of the first half:

00:22 TIMEOUT
00:22 SUB IN : Luke Kennard
00:22 SUB OUT: Chase Jeter
00:22 SUB OUT: Matt Jones
00:22 SUB OUT: Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Chase Jeter
00:05 SUB IN : Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Matt Jones
00:05 SUB OUT: Grayson Allen

Obviously you can't take three out and put one in. These typos aren't that uncommon, but usually I can figure it out by seeing who makes a subsequent play, or by going to the video. Or by realizing that one of the "OUT"s must have been an "IN". None of my sleuthing works on this one, and as I mentioned upthread, I didn't get a video of this one.

So my question is this: who was on the floor for Duke at the end of the first half. I need all five players from 22 seconds left up to 5 seconds left, and then the lineup for the final 5 seconds.

If anyone has the game recorded and can check this for me, I'd appreciate it!

22.5+ Allen, Thornton, Jones, Jeter, and Ingram are in the game.

22.5 --> 4.5 Kennard, Allen, Thornton, Ingram, and Jones.

4.5 --> 0. After his 2nd free throw, Allen is replaced by Jeter. Everyone else is the same.

uh_no
11-22-2015, 10:45 PM
Just a reminder though that a Rivers type year means entering the ACCT at 26-5, a Parker type year means entering the ACCT at 24-7 and an Okafor/Winslow year means entering ACCT lay at 28-3, which are not huge differences in the seasons. It depends more if the team gets hot at the right time how well they are remembered.


Or figures out how to play defense. The first two didn't, the last one did.
ending Kpom defenses:
2012: 81
2014: 116
2015 12 (after peaking somewhere over 100 i think...)

you don't have to get hot to beat lehigh or mercer...

edit: mercer...not wofford...

OZ
11-22-2015, 10:50 PM
I noticed Grayson sniffing a lot and his nose looked a little swollen. I think the guy may have had a cold.

That was from breathing fire!

Potato Head
11-22-2015, 10:53 PM
I don't think it's a coincidence that our two worst defensive performances were in the two games where Ingram played the least.

uh_no
11-22-2015, 10:56 PM
I don't think it's a coincidence that our two worst defensive performances were in the two games where Ingram played the least.

small sample size much? we've had 3 games against relevant opponents, and the difference between VCU and UK was only a few minutes of play time for ingram....hardly enough to make much difference in the defensive efficiency....

OZ
11-22-2015, 10:58 PM
i need to see more facilitating! he's averaging 3 assists a game, and has an a:to ~1 (exactly 1 discounting the cupcakes last week).

Thornton is going to be just fine. He could have been playing his senior year in HIGH SCHOOL. I can't even imagine that transition at his age.

I would like to see Amile get a few more touches and become more a part of the offense.

Jarhead
11-22-2015, 11:00 PM
The three shots isn't a bad idea. It's tough though because as long as you're trying to make a play on the ball, a ref can't say it's intentional. Differentiating the 2 would be hard.
Let's make it simple -- make it an automatic intentional foul in the closing 2 minutes. The ref doesn't need to make a decision, at all. Just blow the whistle.

uh_no
11-22-2015, 11:03 PM
Thornton is going to be just fine. He could have been playing his senior year in HIGH SCHOOL. I can't even imagine that transition at his age.


I'm sure it's unimaginably hard. but just because it's hard doesn't put more points on the board than the other guys at the end of the day....and as that's the ultimate goal, I'm not sure I can with-hold concern because of some external factor.

Anyway, It IS a concern of mine, and I hope he improves, and I'm sure it's hard.

All those things are true.

subzero02
11-22-2015, 11:52 PM
Missed the game due to a recording snafu (my newspaper listed the two 2K Classic games without naming the teams and I assumed the championship would be the second game).

Looking at the gamelog, I note that coach did the usual offense/defense sub at the end-of-game: Ingram for offense and Jeter for defense. Nice to see that Chase is getting some cred for his D.

It should be archived on watch espn...

duke96
11-23-2015, 12:03 AM
Don't suppose anyone has a link to watch replay of the game?

eddiehaskell
11-23-2015, 04:02 AM
I don't think he cracked under pressure. If he missed all of his free throws in the last minutes than that is cracking.Dunno - it's always suspicious when a decent shooter misses two in a row at the very, very, very end of the game when a miss could mean losing the game. It's especially suspect when the same player (especially a freshman) just hit 8 in a row. It happens too often to just chalk it up to a player being due for a few misses. Huge difference between shooting a couple up 3 with 45 seconds left and doing the same up 2 with 10 seconds left. IMO, if we could get complete honesty from Thornton, I bet he'd say he was nervous...4th game, 18 yrs old, national TV, MSG...eek.

KenTankerous
11-23-2015, 04:28 AM
Reading all this and hearing every post in this guy's voice:

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Mayor-nightmare-before-christmas-226661_500_375.jpg

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-23-2015, 05:44 AM
the almost flagrant foul that led to a little chat with the official with 9:50 left was what? it looked to me like Grayson intentionally shoved Peak down to the ground with his right hand.


then with 4:53 remaining, Grayson goes for his right handed scoop shot to the basket and appears to push #33 down with his left hand while he's rising up to the basket.


perhaps this happens all the time everywhere and I'm just late to the party? Most of you are a lot more basketball savvy than I, so I'd appreciate some help with context here

Can't speak to the second incident, but the first certainly didn't look like it was unintentional to me. I grimaced when I saw it in live action and winced when I saw the replays.

I am all for pressing the advantage, but Grayson needs to color within the lines when there's the potential for being ejected. Hope it was an isolated incident - would really prefer for him not to earn a reputation like that.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-23-2015, 05:49 AM
Reading all this and hearing every post in this guy's voice:

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Mayor-nightmare-before-christmas-226661_500_375.jpg
I had to look up the reference but I think I get it. And agree. You would think we were dissecting a first round loss in the Tourney. If my sources are correct, however, we are very young, learning to play as a team, lost one game to arguably the best team in the country, beat two tournament quality teams this past weekend, and are 4-1.

Troublemaker
11-23-2015, 06:56 AM
I could use a little help figuring the +/- for this game. GoDuke has a typo on the substitutions after Duke's timeout near the end of the first half:

00:22 TIMEOUT
00:22 SUB IN : Luke Kennard
00:22 SUB OUT: Chase Jeter
00:22 SUB OUT: Matt Jones
00:22 SUB OUT: Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Chase Jeter
00:05 SUB IN : Brandon Ingram
00:05 SUB IN : Matt Jones
00:05 SUB OUT: Grayson Allen


In actuality, it should read like this:

00:22 TIMEOUT
00:22 SUB IN : Luke Kennard
00:22 SUB OUT: Chase Jeter
00:05 SUB IN : Chase Jeter
00:05 SUB OUT: Grayson Allen

Matt and Brandon never subbed out.

WillJ
11-23-2015, 07:23 AM
Just wanted to give even more props to Grayson Allen. Based solely on these early games, and recalling that he didn't play all that much last year, I think the best historical Duke comparison is Jason Williams. He's a much better shooter than Gerald Henderson and a much better driver than JJ. The combination is very unusual. He's not the dribbler that Jason Williams was, but he still seems the best comp to me in the combination of shooting and physicality. You never know whether he'll be able to keep up this level of performance, but it's been very, very impressive so far.

Neals384
11-23-2015, 08:17 AM
22.5+ Allen, Thornton, Jones, Jeter, and Ingram are in the game.

22.5 --> 4.5 Kennard, Allen, Thornton, Ingram, and Jones.

4.5 --> 0. After his 2nd free throw, Allen is replaced by Jeter. Everyone else is the same.

Thanks FireOgilvie! And Troublemaker!

JBDuke
11-23-2015, 08:21 AM
Duke Blue Planet highlights, including a Marshall Plumlee interview of Grayson Allen at the end.

https://youtu.be/r-Ec7W4TRZI

I almost always enjoy Marshall's interviews. I love the bit about getting bored with scoring. :-)

bob blue devil
11-23-2015, 08:52 AM
small sample size much? we've had 3 games against relevant opponents, and the difference between VCU and UK was only a few minutes of play time for ingram...hardly enough to make much difference in the defensive efficiency...

Gosh that seems overly harsh. It's not like he was claiming statistical significance or anything - in fact it was the opposite given the preface 'I don't think it's a coincidence'. It seems like a reasonable opinion that Brandon contributes positively to our defense.

MCFinARL
11-23-2015, 09:00 AM
Ah good catch! Thanks! I thought I had read he had not turned 18 yet. So he was a High School Redshirt and then went back to original class. I turned 18 in April of my Sr year in High School and then proceeded to grow 3 inches and put on 20 pounds over that summer. My High School Coach told me he wished he would have Redshirted me as a Freshman. ( I did not play Varsity until my JR and SR year like normal back then, but still could have a been a year older as a JR/SR on Varsity had I done that. Could have played Varsity as a Soph in that scenario since I played varsity that age year anyway). So Thornton is similar to me in age in that regard, meaning he is still young for his class, but sounds like Ingram and Jeter are also.

Not sure that he actually redshirted. According to his USA Basketball biography (http://archive.usab.com/bios/thornton_derryck.html), he played as a freshman at a California high school in 2012-13 before transferring to Findlay Prep. HI birthday is in May. It's not uncommon these days for kids with late spring and summer birthdays, especially boys, to wait until the next year to start school so they will be more mature and school-ready. Not conclusive evidence, as he could have dropped back a year somewhere before high school, I suppose. But at least plausible that he is not a redshirt.

In that light, it's worth, maybe, being a bit patient with Brandon Ingram, who is, as someone pointed out above, younger than Derryck even though he went straight through high school--having just turned 18 in September (along with Chase Jeter). It may take him some time to get used to the big stage and bright lights--and the speed and size of the college game.

NYBri
11-23-2015, 09:02 AM
Last Tuesday, I posted the following:


"Been thinking about this game and it feels different...weird... somehow. Two top teams...but...who are they and how good are they?

I think it has to do with the fact that both teams are recognizable in name only. Duke and Kentucky...in that the turnover has been so dramatic that they have no personalities yet. Trying to remember back to last year's early games and how I felt then, and it wasn't until mid December that I felt I knew the team's character.

As a result, I have no idea what is going to happen tonight. It's like opening the season with the final 4.

I know that by Thanksgiving, I'll have a better bead on the team, but right now, tonight, it just feels weird. Almost like I'm rooting for the jerseys and not the guys in them.

Am I being weird, or does anyone else feel the same way?"

And, after a week, I have a much better feel for this team in terms of what we have and where we might be headed. Definitely see what needs work. As many have said, Ingram and Kennard need to find their rolls and contribute, Thornton is the PG, Allen is super fun to watch, upperclassmen are steady...

But the main take-away is that this team is good and could become special if the Ingram/Kennard/Jeter trio lives up to their potential. It's also fun to watch K figure it out as well. That might be the most fun piece.

A week ago, I really had no idea of what we had or where we could be headed. Year in and year out, it's great to be a Duke fan. We are so lucky.

Ichabod Drain
11-23-2015, 09:06 AM
Thornton is going to be just fine. He could have been playing his senior year in HIGH SCHOOL. I can't even imagine that transition at his age.

I would like to see Amile get a few more touches and become more a part of the offense.

FWIW Thornton is older that Ingram and Jeter. Also I agree about getting Amile more involved on offense.

MCFinARL
11-23-2015, 09:07 AM
Duke Blue Planet highlights, including a Marshall Plumlee interview of Grayson Allen at the end.

https://youtu.be/r-Ec7W4TRZI

I almost always enjoy Marshall's interviews. I love the bit about getting bored with scoring. :-)

Thanks for posting that--agree this is vintage Marshall Plumlee. He is so engaging, and has such an appealing, wry sense of humor, that he is a great ambassador for the Duke program--a contribution that is not insignificant in this media-driven modern age.

rsvman
11-23-2015, 09:50 AM
Am I the only person who saw the obvious push-off by the Georgetown player at the end of the first half right before he launched the long buzzer-beater? It was blatant. Nobody mentioned it during the broadcast, and nobody has mentioned it in this thread.

I know, bygones and all that, but had Georgetown made the final shot of the game and won by one point, I would be looking back at that shot just before the half with a very jaundiced eye. I think the basket should have been disallowed, and we should have been shooting free throws. That one missed call was potentially a 5-point difference in the outcome.

I'm obviously glad that we found a way to win it so I don't have to perseverate about it.


Anyway, a gutsy victory. Despite Thornton's two missed free throws at the very end, he had made 6 pressure free throws in a row and Kennard had made two more, so two of our freshmen went 8 for 10 at the line during crunch time. I think 80% free throw shooting during crunch time is pretty good, and wins lots of games.

Proud of our team.

sagegrouse
11-23-2015, 09:52 AM
Good article by Eamonn Brennan...

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/109179/duke-is-no-juggarnaut-but-grayson-allen-is

Interesting quote...

Coach K's discussion with Grayson... "I said, 'Look at your face. Is that how you want to look?' He said, 'I can't believe it.' I said, well, that's what I'm looking at. And also that's what Kentucky is looking at. That's what your teammates are looking at. And when you're an outstanding player, you win not just by how you perform, you win by how you look and how you act."

And another quote from Eamonn Brennan:

"...widely questioned point guard Derryck Thornton played well...." Oh my! Looks like Derryck has some bulletin board stuff to react to.

rsvman
11-23-2015, 09:54 AM
Oh, forgot one more thing.

When Georgetown went to zone, it pretty much took all the wind out of our offensive sails. Same thing happened to G-town when Coach K went to the 1-3-1, which I was calling for in my living room about 4 possessions before he went to it.



I have a suspicion that one of the unintended consequences of the shortened shot clock is that we may be seeing a lot more zone defense in college basketball this year than we did last. It slows the offenses down a few steps. This, coupled with the shortened shot clock, tends to cause some hurried, forced shots. I hope somebody is keeping track of the use of man-to-man versus zone defenses this year versus the last few. I find it doubtful that the people who decided to shorten the shot clock even considered this possibility.

elvis14
11-23-2015, 09:54 AM
Was at the game and it reminded me of the game that JJ went off against Texas (was also lucky enough to be at that game). It seemed like everything Grayson threw up was going in...

The biggest difference is that Duke just stopped going to Grayson. On the 1st 8 possessions of the 2nd half Grayson had 2 3s, got fouled shooting a 3 (made all 3) and 3 assists. Duke scored 19 points on those 8 possessions. The last one was a Grayson assist to Marshall at 15:24. The next Grayson shot came at 4:56. More than 12 minutes since his last shot. How does he go 12 minutes without a shot? What's worse is that he was barely involved in the offense. Georgetown clearly had no answer for him... when he drove he got fouled or scored. When he took a 3 it went in. I know he can't do everything but... 12 minutes without a shot? 12 minutes without really even using a possession (he may have had a turnover in there). Color me baffled.

Amazing game by Grayson though. Really impressed how he has put the Kentucky game behind him. Hopefully the rest of the team can rise up closer to his level because he's playing incredibly well.

I think the biggest difference is that G'Town switched to playing a zone defense which we generally attack out of the high post with whoever is playing the 4. That leaves the guards as primarily as spot up 3 point shooters. Eventually Grayson adjusted and attacked but for a while there he was in a pretty passive role.

Agree 100% about Grayson putting the UK game behind him and moving forward. It's great to see, I was a little worried (unnecessarily it turns out).

sagegrouse
11-23-2015, 09:57 AM
Let's make it simple -- make it an automatic intentional foul in the closing 2 minutes. The ref doesn't need to make a decision, at all. Just blow the whistle.

Let's not make it too hard. We don't need more free throws, but fewer. In the last two minutes of a game, if a team commits a second foul within, say, 20 seconds of another foul, then the other team can choose between free throws and taking the ball out. If it's a blow-out, the team takes the FTs; if it's a nail-biter, they take the ball out of bounds.

MChambers
11-23-2015, 10:02 AM
Not sure that he actually redshirted. According to his USA Basketball biography (http://archive.usab.com/bios/thornton_derryck.html), he played as a freshman at a California high school in 2012-13 before transferring to Findlay Prep. HI birthday is in May. It's not uncommon these days for kids with late spring and summer birthdays, especially boys, to wait until the next year to start school so they will be more mature and school-ready. Not conclusive evidence, as he could have dropped back a year somewhere before high school, I suppose. But at least plausible that he is not a redshirt.

In that light, it's worth, maybe, being a bit patient with Brandon Ingram, who is, as someone pointed out above, younger than Derryck even though he went straight through high school--having just turned 18 in September (along with Chase Jeter). It may take him some time to get used to the big stage and bright lights--and the speed and size of the college game.

On Thornton, he repeated third grade:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/duke-now/article44296788.html

This group of freshman just isn't as mature as last year's, but in the long run I think they'll prove to be nearly as talented.

Troublemaker
11-23-2015, 10:02 AM
Oh, forgot one more thing.

When Georgetown went to zone, it pretty much took all the wind out of our offensive sails. Same thing happened to G-town when Coach K went to the 1-3-1, which I was calling for in my living room about 4 possessions before he went to it.


I think the old man may have had you beat. The first time Coach went to the 1-3-1 was actually out of the first TV timeout in the first half. It's just that Brandon played the top so poorly that Coach shelved it until the second half when he brought it back with Amile at the top, which worked. Brandon also got a second stint at the top in the second half and did better.



I have a suspicion that one of the unintended consequences of the shortened shot clock is that we may be seeing a lot more zone defense in college basketball this year than we did last. It slows the offenses down a few steps. This, coupled with the shortened shot clock, tends to cause some hurried, forced shots. I hope somebody is keeping track of the use of man-to-man versus zone defenses this year versus the last few. I find it doubtful that the people who decided to shorten the shot clock even considered this possibility.

I believe you're right. Playing zone also protects against foul trouble.

FerryFor50
11-23-2015, 10:03 AM
Am I the only person who saw the obvious push-off by the Georgetown player at the end of the first half right before he launched the long buzzer-beater? It was blatant. Nobody mentioned it during the broadcast, and nobody has mentioned it in this thread.


I mentioned it in game chat. And yes, it was blatant.

Probably not getting much mention because it didn't affect the outcome, but boy would it have stunk if it did. We've already had enough Miami endings this season.

Sixthman
11-23-2015, 10:13 AM
Am I the only person who saw the obvious push-off by the Georgetown player at the end of the first half right before he launched the long buzzer-beater? It was blatant. Nobody mentioned it during the broadcast, and nobody has mentioned it in this thread.

I know, bygones and all that, but had Georgetown made the final shot of the game and won by one point, I would be looking back at that shot just before the half with a very jaundiced eye. I think the basket should have been disallowed, and we should have been shooting free throws. That one missed call was potentially a 5-point difference in the outcome.

I'm obviously glad that we found a way to win it so I don't have to perseverate about it.


Anyway, a gutsy victory. Despite Thornton's two missed free throws at the very end, he had made 6 pressure free throws in a row and Kennard had made two more, so two of our freshmen went 8 for 10 at the line during crunch time. I think 80% free throw shooting during crunch time is pretty good, and wins lots of games.

Proud of our team.

Not sure how that was a no call. It was about as obvious as it gets and it did make a difference. I do think it makes for a nice story line to contrast the defense Thornton played on the last shot of the game -- after his disappointing free throw misses -- to the more passive approach Jones was taking at the end of the first half. I think both of them were making the right play for the game situation, and Thorton's defense was spot on.

freshmanjs
11-23-2015, 10:24 AM
Dunno - it's always suspicious when a decent shooter misses two in a row at the very, very, very end of the game when a miss could mean losing the game. It's especially suspect when the same player (especially a freshman) just hit 8 in a row. It happens too often to just chalk it up to a player being due for a few misses. Huge difference between shooting a couple up 3 with 45 seconds left and doing the same up 2 with 10 seconds left. IMO, if we could get complete honesty from Thornton, I bet he'd say he was nervous...4th game, 18 yrs old, national TV, MSG...eek.

So he made 8/10 down the stretch? How many would you have expected him to make? Do you really think he's a 90% or 100% ft shooter over time? It's like back when jj redick was taking 10-15 ft per game and commentators would be shocked when he missed one, when mathematically, it would have been more surprising if he didn't miss one.

FerryFor50
11-23-2015, 10:38 AM
So he made 8/10 down the stretch? How many would you have expected him to make? Do you really think he's a 90% or 100% ft shooter over time? It's like back when jj redick was taking 10-15 ft per game and commentators would be shocked when he missed one, when mathematically, it would have been more surprising if he didn't miss one.

I think it's recency bias - just happens that the last two misses were at the very end of the game. But totally agree with you; 80% is money.

But let's not ignore the fact that G'town hit a couple of contested 3s down the stretch to make it interesting.

Stuff happens - Duke still won the game.

Saratoga2
11-23-2015, 10:43 AM
With 4 wins and 1 loss and a tourney championship against a good team on the resume, what have we learned.

Coach K knows how to push the right buttons
Grayson is the real deal. An offensive star with multiple ways to score. Drive, jump shot, foul line. He is also an aggressive and capable defender with rebounding and assists to boot.
Derryck is an uber quick point guard with excellent ball handling skills. He is a play maker and can add offense. He is also an excellent foul shooter which makes him important at the end of games

Are We a Fragile Team?

Right now, we are highly reliant on Grayson for offense. Should he be ill, injured, in foul trouble or have a bad hair day, the team is not nearly as competitive.
Also, we are very dependent on Derryck, who makes the offense run. While we have many capable ball handlers, none are capable of running the point.

Will we develop?

We have three freshmen who are very likely to develop during the season. Clearly Brandon, Luke and Derek have big upsides. The question is how long will it take for each to begin to make the kind of impact that will propel the team to a higher level.

In Luke's case, he is already a good ball handler and seems to know where to be. We also know he is a capable shooter and should show that sooner than later. Coach K already sees him as having starters PT. He has the size of John Scheyer and seems also to have his basketball IQ. Look for him to make an impact soon. Clearly he is one of the best free throw shooters on the team and should be in at the finish.

Brandon has the physical skills to make an impact any time, but he hasn't figured out how to get that done as yet. He lacks physical strength so probably won't do it inside this year. Can he develop a mid range game and use his length and ball handling ability to get off his shots? His 3 point attempts do not look that good as yet so he needs to find something that will work for him.

Chase have more skill and fluidity than or other option, Marshall. Big men take time to develop and let us hope he gets significant PT in the easier games to come. Perhaps he is the biggest question mark of the three as far as being able to make an impact this season.

What about our other experienced players?

Lots of people like Matt's efforts. He is good defensively and can hit open shots. He is not a PG and shouldn't be thought of in that way. He is also not an explosive driver/slasher. He doesn't have the quickness or elevation to be a real factor there. If he stays with what he can do well, he will continue to really help this team succeed.

Amile is really a very good 4 with good defense, rebounding and opportunistic scoring. He has a good enough handle to go to the top of the key for distribution. He is limited in not really having a mid range game or 3 point shot. His foul shooting problems are also back with him. His foul shooting against Georgetown shows that he has reverted to a very flat attempt that requires precision to go in. He had gone with an arc on the ball but seems to have abandoned that.

My view of Marshall is that he is a journeyman. He is big, strong and athletic and works very hard but has never been gifted with a feel for the game or touch on the ball. Setting screens, rebounding and dunks seem to be it. To me, he is likely to see reduced PT again this season as Chase develops.

So the keys to success going forward.
Grayson stays healthy
Derryck stays healthy and develops his game
Luke, Brandon and Chase begin to make a larger impact
Matt, Amile and Marshall stick with what they do best

Coach K knows his players and is a master at developing his team.

jimsumner
11-23-2015, 01:18 PM
,

We have three freshmen who are very likely to develop during the season. Clearly Brandon, Luke and Derek have big upsides. The question is how long will it take for each to begin to make the kind of impact that will propel the team to a higher level.



Derek?

Since you correctly spelled Derryck several other places in the thread, is it possible you were talking about Duke's young post player Derek Jeter? :)

MChambers
11-23-2015, 01:57 PM
Derek?

Since you correctly spelled Derryck several other places in the thread, is it possible you were talking about Duke's young post player Derek Jeter? :)

That makes everything clear. Obviously, Coach K is once again playing a player out of position. Jeter doesn't belong at the 5 or 4, because he's always been a 6 (shortstop).

Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I've thought of Chase as Derek. Don't think I've said it out loud, or typed it, but that's just dumb luck.

oldnavy
11-23-2015, 02:22 PM
Let's not make it too hard. We don't need more free throws, but fewer. In the last two minutes of a game, if a team commits a second foul within, say, 20 seconds of another foul, then the other team can choose between free throws and taking the ball out. If it's a blow-out, the team takes the FTs; if it's a nail-biter, they take the ball out of bounds.

I don't believe anything needs to be done for these end of game situations. It has been this way forever, and it is just part of the fabric of the game IMO.

I do think the team timeouts need to be cut way back. We already have 4 timeouts each half so I would be happy with each coach having 2 additional TO's for the entire game....

If something just has to be done, what about a clock runoff like they have in the NFL? Say under 2 minutes, the trailing team fouls (defensive fouls), there is a 10 second clock run off?

I think more effort needs to be done to improve the officiating of the games. We have plenty of rules, we do not have an abundance of good officials.... that's where the focus needs to be directed if you ask me. The inconsistency is maddening, and the game is very difficult to call, so why not invest in professional (year round) refs? Maybe it is cost prohibitive but I think it needs to be looked at closely.

hudlow
11-23-2015, 02:35 PM
I think more effort needs to be done to improve the officiating of the games. We have plenty of rules, we do not have an abundance of good officials... that's where the focus needs to be directed if you ask me. The inconsistency is maddening, and the game is very difficult to call, so why not invest in professional (year round) refs? Maybe it is cost prohibitive but I think it needs to be looked at closely.

Just fire a couple of officials, the rest will come around...

Billy Dat
11-23-2015, 03:07 PM
In games not against Kentucky this year, Allen is shooting 58.6% from the floor, 53.9% from 3 point range, 94.4% from the free throw line, and a true shooting percentage of 78.6%. He doing that while averaging 29 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and a steal per game. Those numbers are amazing.

Grayson is playing with a ton of confidence. Some combination of JJ and Gerald Henderson.

I still think we are largely selling this kid short. The Kentucky game is looming so large that our heads aren't exploding at how flat out insane this kid is playing. People mention JJ and Jason Williams. What I like about those comparisons is that his style is different but he exudes the same offensive ego and confidence. We knew he could take it to the hole, but the shooting is astounding, and he is starting to pass really well, and I continue to see him fight like an alley cat on the glass. I love him!


The 1-3-1 zone defense was very effective.

Again, an understatement in how HUGE this was to our success. Georgetown was clueless against it. I think it's effectiveness is why JTIII decided to go zone himself. I thought our youth showed in trying to bust the zone, and my though is biased by how we shredded that Baylor 2-3 in the 2010 regional final by repeatedly hitting ZBeard at the foul line and having him redirect. We got it to Brandon there once and he hit a jumper. Every other time he caught it there, he quickly took a step to the perimeter back out to where the guards were, not allowing the D to collapse, and not looking to drive. When Marshall was there, he just redirected too slowly. I like Amile in that spot and wish he would drive from that spot as I think he has great touch around the hoop, great finishing ability and can mitigate his so-so ball handling with his long strides allowing him to get to the hoop in one step or so.


I don't think he cracked under pressure. If he missed all of his free throws in the last minutes than that is cracking.

Co-sign this. The two misses are what we remember but he was overall very clutch and had a few drives that he couldn't finish but managed to get all the way to the rim in big spots. Scoring will not be his issue, when he gets a better handle on how to get everyone else off while also staying aggressive, he is going to cause big problems for the other team.


I noticed Grayson sniffing a lot and his nose looked a little swollen. I think the guy may have had a cold.

Call Gay Talese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra_Has_a_Cold)


Great win, and great tourney. I thought the kids showed some moxie out there today, and really Friday night also. Getting down 9 or 10 does not seem to impact them from the standpoint of: they don't panic. Good sign for a team this young. I thought Georgetown played as well as they could possible play in that first half, including shooting jumpshots, and our kids took the punches, battled their way back, and held their own, even in the face of the buzzer beater, then came out throwing haymakers in half two.

I love the fact that we have two second half comebacks under our belt. That says A LOT.


I don't think it's a coincidence that our two worst defensive performances were in the two games where Ingram played the least.

I politely disagree with this. I find his defense really poor right now. I don't get the sense that he has an intuitive knack for it, he often seems out of position, and his awareness of where to be on the top of the 1-3-1 feels poor. Many times, he was between the ballhandler and halfcourt making him the player closest to half court - yet he was on defense. On top of that, he didn't have his hands up. If I am him and the coaches are putting me at the top of the 1-3-1 for my Jack Skellington arms, and I haven't been scoring, I am arms-up darting to and fro like a pogo stick trying to cause havok, get my mits on a ball so that I can get a dunk the other way and get myself going. Instead, he looks like he's out there swallowing medicine. He had a few nice deflections on recovery dives into the lane, but his rebounding is also suspect. The kid is just out of sorts, but, to draw a comparison, Kennard is also struggling on offense yet not letting it take away from the rest of his game. At one point Kennard was yelling at Ingram about where to be on defense.

Other quick thoughts:
-K at the presser, "All of these guys have to be given an opportunity to grow". Someone else said as much upthread but I exceeded my multi-quote quota.
-We had a lot of near misses, every Kennard 3 seems to hit the rim on both sides before flying out. He is micro-inches away.
-We had a lot of chances to extend our lead when it was 9 but missed closely on a few straight possessions.
-I know the last few minutes were painful, but Georgetown put on a clinic of extending the game and executing. They should be praised, it was nearly flawless. We did the same thing last year in several of our comebacks, including the UNC home game at CIS.
-G-Town's 8 points in the final minute of the half were demoralizing, especially that huge 3, but K praised the team for responding saying that they didn't respond when Kentucky did the same thing to end the first half.
-K on Jeter, "he's doing good things, he wants it really bad, but he's like that ripening grape that it's too early to pick" K loves his wine metaphors. He also basically said Jeter will be getting plenty of run, probably in the lower stakes games between now and conference.
-K on Grayson not starting and how he communicated it, "I told him. What...you think I wrote a note and put it under his pillow?"

So so so so much upside with this team. Funny that I am sure we'd all point out lots of reasons why our offense looks bad, yet it's KenPom #1. When Kedsy says, "I'm not inclined to worry about our offense", I can see his point. Even when it looks bad, it's pretty good.

Troublemaker
11-23-2015, 03:38 PM
Nice post, BillyDat!



Again, an understatement in how HUGE this was to our success. Georgetown was clueless against it.

Exactly. They never really figured out the 1-3-1. On two of the Hoyas' buckets against the 1-3-1, a Duke player actually deflected the ball right into a Hoya's hands in scoring position. Those two possessions could easily have been additional turnovers instead of scores for them. Grrrr, just thinking about it. This game never should've come down to a halfcourt heave at the end.



I think it's effectiveness is why JTIII decided to go zone himself. I thought our youth showed in trying to bust the zone, and my though is biased by how we shredded that Baylor 2-3 in the 2010 regional final by repeatedly hitting ZBeard at the foul line and having him redirect.

Exactly right. Every time Duke hit the high post against the 2-3 zone, good things happened, i.e. score or foul. But we just didn't do it enough. It was a really soft zone that we should've shredded.



I like Amile in that spot and wish he would drive from that spot as I think he has great touch around the hoop, great finishing ability and can mitigate his so-so ball handling with his long strides allowing him to get to the hoop in one step or so.

I like Brandon better at that spot, but I do agree that Amile is effective there. He scored once against the 2-3 zone when he received the ball at the high post, turned, drove, and drop-stepped Georgetown's big for a layup using the long strides you mentioned. We just didn't hit the high post enough in those possessions against 2-3 zone.



Co-sign this. The two misses are what we remember but he was overall very clutch and had a few drives that he couldn't finish but managed to get all the way to the rim in big spots. Scoring will not be his issue, when he gets a better handle on how to get everyone else off while also staying aggressive, he is going to cause big problems for the other team.

Moreover, after Derryck missed the two FTs, he didn't sulk. He pressured the heck out of Copeland as Copeland was making his way up court and forced a tough 40-footer that missed at the buzzer. I'm not sure what cliches to pile onto Derryck there. I'm gonna go with "gutsy" and "tough."




I politely disagree with this. I find his defense really poor right now. I don't get the sense that he has an intuitive knack for it, he often seems out of position, and his awareness of where to be on the top of the 1-3-1 feels poor. Many times, he was between the ballhandler and halfcourt making him the player closest to half court - yet he was on defense. On top of that, he didn't have his hands up. If I am him and the coaches are putting me at the top of the 1-3-1 for my Jack Skellington arms, and I haven't been scoring, I am arms-up darting to and fro like a pogo stick trying to cause havok, get my mits on a ball so that I can get a dunk the other way and get myself going. Instead, he looks like he's out there swallowing medicine. He had a few nice deflections on recovery dives into the lane, but his rebounding is also suspect.

Totes agree. His arms should always be wide in the 1-3-1.


The kid is just out of sorts, but, to draw a comparison, Kennard is also struggling on offense yet not letting it take away from the rest of his game. At one point Kennard was yelling at Ingram about where to be on defense.

Right, the call to go into 1-3-1 was made from the sideline but Brandon didn't receive it, so Kennard had to yell to him to go top the zone.



-I know the last few minutes were painful, but Georgetown put on a clinic of extending the game and executing. They should be praised, it was nearly flawless. We did the same thing last year in several of our comebacks, including the UNC home game at CIS.


We helped them out a lot, though. Just one of many, many examples. With 8 secs left in the game, Grayson helped on a drive instead of just sticking with the shooter Copeland, so the driver kicked out, and even though Grayson recovered to make a great contest on Copeland's three, he should never have gotten a chance to shoot it. Time and score dictated "No threes, give up twos." If Georgetown had scored on a drive instead, the lead would've been 3 points when Derryck went to the line with 5 seconds left. Much less game pressure on him if the team were up 3 instead of 2 for those free throws.

COYS
11-23-2015, 03:46 PM
I still think we are largely selling this kid short. The Kentucky game is looming so large that our heads aren't exploding at how flat out insane this kid is playing. People mention JJ and Jason Williams. What I like about those comparisons is that his style is different but he exudes the same offensive ego and confidence. We knew he could take it to the hole, but the shooting is astounding, and he is starting to pass really well, and I continue to see him fight like an alley cat on the glass. I love him!




Could not agree more with this. Yeah, Grayson looked a bit overmatched in the UK game . . . but he clearly adjusted. The Hoyas aren't as good as UK, obviously, but Grayson very deliberately looked to pass more on his drives, used his pull-up jumper (which he was nailing, thankfully!), and picked his spots better. He is simply blistering college basketball, right now. Take a look at his advanced stats (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/grayson-allen-1.html). It's still early in the season, but he leads all of NCAA basketball in total points scored (which I know is kind of meaningless because of the disparate number of games played, but it's still indicative of how much of a roll he has been on) in addition to being second in Win Shares. Perhaps most indicative at all, he is in the top 20 in all of college basketball in four of the best categories for predicting offensive efficiency. He is near the top in FTA AND FTM plus he is in the top 20 for 3pFGA and 3pFGM. This confirms with statistics what we all have seen with our own eyes, of course, but he is exceptional at attacking the hoop and exceptional at hitting from three point range. Shots at the rim and three pointers are the most efficient shots in the game. He takes and makes a LOT of those. And when he doesn't get to to the rim, he's getting fouled, which puts a lot of pressure on the other team. Grayson won't hit his three pointers at 56% for the rest of the season, obviously, but it's okay because he can score in other ways, too. The adjustments he has made since his bad game against UK have only made him even more dangerous. The main thing the staff will have to prepare for is how to keep him just as effective when other teams inevitably begin to zone us more to prevent him from getting to the hoop. If he can figure out a consistent way to attack a zone defense, we're in for one heck of an individual season with Grayson. Brandon might be a bit of an enigma at the moment on offense, but Grayson has been putting up numbers over the past five games that put him in elite company among former Dukies. We have a long way to go this season, but we really couldn't have asked for much more from Grayson. He has exceeded my high but cautious expectations for him. And he should absolutely be in the media's way-to-early-but-inevitable chatter for NPOY.

Troublemaker
11-23-2015, 04:10 PM
Scattered thoughts, Part I:


MP3, please don't foul on the opening tip trying to wrestle the ball away. Many times this year we will play a game that is called tightly like this one was, and fouls are precious in those games
Grayson is a Dribble Hand-Off (DHO) monster! When he receives the handoff, he's completely at ease in his decision-making as to whether to shoot, drive, pass away, or pocket pass to roller. And he can effectively do all four things.
Coach K talked about Derryck gaining his teammates' confidence. One such play that demonstrates this was when DT tried to take G'town's burly PF off the dribble but mishandled the ball and had to pass out to Matt. The captain passed the ball right back to Derryck to try again. This time he crossed over the burly PF, got into the lane and drew a foul.
Zones will be important this season to manage foul trouble. Defensive-minded NBA coaches probably wish they could do away with defensive 3-seconds in the NBA so they could zone to their hearts' content like college coaches can.
Pretty cool that David Robinson is showing up to games even though his son is redshirting.

Troublemaker
11-24-2015, 10:43 AM
Scattered Thoughts, Part II:

For certain big, crafty PGs like Smith-Rivera, it might be better for Matt to guard them than Derryck. Smith-Rivera never blew by Derryck, as it's very tough to do so, but he had a way of craftily eating up ground on Derryck on the drive without charging and then rising for an easy floater when in short range.
Smith-Rivera tried that twice on Matt, who was able to use his size to force Smith-Rivera into bad misses. Smith-Rivera also lost Derryck off the ball once for an easy corner 3, something that's very difficult to do when guarded by Matt.
Chase was wonderful in his 5 minutes of playing time. First, the drop-step post move on Mourning with perhaps an NBA-like friendly continuation call for the "And 1". Then, the putback dunk on Grayson's drive. Then he drew a charge working in the middle of a 2-3 zone. And then my favorite play of the game -- strong defensive rebound from Chase, short outlet to Brandon, who throws ahead to Grayson down the sideline, who cross-court passes to an open Matt for the corner 3 in transition!
We made silly mistakes with the lead down the stretch. On one possession, Amile bailed out the Hoyas with a touch foul on the perimeter with the shot clock running down. On another, Derryck gave a soft foul allowing a 3-pt play instead of just giving up the layup. We allowed back-to-back 3-pointers on the two possessions before Derryck missed his free throws. One was a wide-open corner 3, and one I already mentioned where Grayson needlessly helped instead of staying attached to the shooter.
Matt was very poor finishing at the rim. We need Brandon to step up to be that secondary scorer so Matt can be a little more picky with his drive attempts and not take on too much offensive responsibility. One positive when Matt drives, though, is that he has his head up and can make a dumpoff pass or bounce pass to a big for an easy lay-in, which he did twice. He had 3 assists, 0 turnovers. But a bunch of failed finishes.

COYS
11-24-2015, 12:13 PM
One positive when Matt drives, though, is that he has his head up and can make a dumpoff pass or bounce pass to a big for an easy lay-in, which he did twice. He had 3 assists, 0 turnovers. But a bunch of failed finishes.
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I agree with all of this, but part of me wonders if Matt is such a willing passer when driving because he is such a poor finisher at the rim in traffic. On his missed layups, he seemed to lack any confidence that they were ever going in. At any rate, I agree, Matt is best as a three and D guy and as a leader for the kids. In that capacity he's really deadly as he can pretty sneakily rack up points bombing away from three point range. Despite careless turnovers, Brandon has definitely shown flashes of being an excellent passer. He has a lot to work on, but I think that if he can cut down on his turnovers, we can start to trust him to handle the ball more and make plays, which will be important for our offense in a year where we have no obvious playmaker.

flyingdutchdevil
11-24-2015, 12:45 PM
I agree with all of this, but part of me wonders if Matt is such a willing passer when driving because he is such a poor finisher at the rim in traffic. On his missed layups, he seemed to lack any confidence that they were ever going in. At any rate, I agree, Matt is best as a three and D guy and as a leader for the kids. In that capacity he's really deadly as he can pretty sneakily rack up points bombing away from three point range. Despite careless turnovers, Brandon has definitely shown flashes of being an excellent passer. He has a lot to work on, but I think that if he can cut down on his turnovers, we can start to trust him to handle the ball more and make plays, which will be important for our offense in a year where we have no obvious playmaker.

Again, couldn't agree more with COYS on this one. I think Matt, AJ, and Grayson are the best players on this team right now because they are out-performing their roles the most effectively. AJ as a high-energy guy who defends well, rebounds well on both ends of the floor (and rebounds exceptionally on the O boards), and has a few post moves but moving revolutionary. Matt as a 3-and-D guy who is the consummate leader. And Grayson as the alpha-dog on offense.

I may be selling Matt short by thinking of him as a 3-and-D guy rather than a player who was 3-and-D last year and is expanding his offensive arsenal, but I think the coaching staff and Matt are very content with his role. Matt doesn't try anything too crazy and, as a result, his minutes and points are second on the team.