MBB: Duke 79, VCU 71 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[MCFinARL]

Yikes! All's well that ends well, I guess.

[Troublemaker]

Phew. Looking forward to playing a team without a lot of small, quick guards.

I think Georgetown fits the bill.

[mapei]

Huge game for Grayson, great bounce back from Kentucky. Coming out party for DT, solid night from Amile on D. Horrid FT shooting. Took quite a while to find our groove.

[eddiehaskell]

Chase Jeter...0 minutes. Sadly, it looks like such a highly ranked recruit probably wont be a factor this season.

Ingram continuing to struggle.

We'd be in BIG trouble if not for Thornton stepping up.

[Troublemaker]

Chase Jeter...0 minutes. Sadly, it looks like such a highly ranked recruit probably wont be a factor this season.

I wouldn't predict that at all.

VCU was just a really small and quick team. (Props to Amile for playing a nice smallball 5, btw).

Chase will get run vs Georgetown.

[Henderson]

Chase Jeter...0 minutes. Sadly, it looks like such a highly ranked recruit probably wont be a factor this season.

Might be a wee bit early to make that judgment. He'll be fine. He's 18.

But I pity the fool journalist who asks about a dog house.

[jipops]

The lights are coming on for Thornton. Very promising. He's got a ways to go but this kid has some skills.

[Duke95]

Chase is going to be a very good player, but he's a project. Has no post moves, below-average strength, and no mid-range game. He'll gain those over time, because he's very young.

[Furniture]

Two things....
Just think how good we will be when Brandon has his break out game....
Luke was the difference for me in the second half...energy!!!

[wsb3]

Very fortunate VCU missed some open looks because the free throw shooting those last few minutes was hard to bear watching. I tried stepping out of the room to change our fortunes but it was to no avail.

Dickie V (bless his heart as we like to say in the South) it was like he had never heard of Thornton before..In depth analysis.. that he might be the answer at the point.. Gee I thought he was recruited to play center. Did anyone think Matt Jones was going to run the point all season? Let me put it this way. Thornton better be the answer..

Ingram plays really lackadaisical. I sure hope to see more fire out of him.

Kennard keep shooting. They will begin to fall.

Coach K made adjustments & in the end this was a win against a good team.

Grayson MOTM for sure. Love the way he plays.

[Saratoga2]

Grayson had an outstanding offensive game and was also very solid defensively and rebounded well. His physical strength helps him in all regards.

When coach K realized our big lineup with Marshall wasn't working and that we weren't getting much out of Ingram he went small and that did work. Thornton had an excellent game as his speed, quickness and court vision was evident. He wasn't perfect but we were much better with him out there. While Kennard's scoring has yet to come to the fore, he is smart and played decent defense and had good ball security. Unlike what some others said, Jefferson played good defense and rebounded well. He was up against some really strong kids and he wouldn't have been able to hang in there last year but his added muscle makes him competitive.

I give coach K a ton of credit for seeing that our small quicker team had a distinct advantage on the VCU team. Good win coach and a good learning experience.

So where do we go from here? If Kennard starts to make his shots, and Ingram gets more of a feel for the game, we we become a very competitive team at the highest level. I am wondering if Ingram can realize his potential without gaining some strength. It appears we have issues inside against big teams with quickness. While we have a lot of bigs, apparently coach K doesn't feel they are well enough developed to really be competitive.

[eddiehaskell]

I wouldn't predict that at all.

VCU was just a really small and quick team. (Props to Amile for playing a nice smallball 5, btw).

Chase will get run vs Georgetown.4 games...10 pts/4 reb. I would think he could get a few minutes over Amile/MP3 who are both serviceable, but not spectacular big men.

Hopefully Ingram comes around too. His game isn't looking very fluid/instinctual at this point.

[NYBri]

I sense Ingram is not going to start one of these games. K likes motivational messages.

Needs to understand that he has to earn the spot, not just walk on and assume it. skills and talent are one thing...working with those gifts to become a well rounded team players is quite another.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Thornton has got to be the point guard. He took a big step forward today, and no one else is a point guard, beyond limited minutes.

That means one of our better perimeter players will often be on the bench and/or we will go small more. Today, at least, we showed we can play that way.

Ingram is not the shooter I expected yet, but he's a better passer, though prone to careless turnovers. Jones needs to stay in his role as much as possible - spot-up shooter and slasher, not a creator. Allen is a shooting guard and a good one. Kennard's shot isn't falling yet and he gets lost on defense at times, but he hustles and doesn't give up. Jefferson and Plumlee are playing their roles solidly, but we shouldn't expect them to be what they aren't, consistent scorers. They need to be defensive cornerstones and can improve their defensive rebounding to go with their offensive rebounding.

[eddiehaskell]

Chase is going to be a very good player, but he's a project. Has no post moves, below-average strength, and no mid-range game. He'll gain those over time, because he's very young.You're probably right. I'm surprised that projects are ranked so highly coming out of HS. With no post game, strength or mid range game - I would think a player needs elite athleticism, but I'm not sure if Chase has that. Nothing against Chase of course.

[weezie]

It's always obvious but man oh man, Coach K and the steel nerves. Just massaging the heck out of that small rotation!

[jipops]

You're probably right. I'm surprised that projects are ranked so highly coming out of HS. With no post game, strength or mid range game - I would think a player needs elite athleticism, but I'm not sure if Chase has that. Nothing against Chase of course.

Lots of big men can be overrated coming out of HS. Actually, I believe he does have somewhat of a post game. The problem is the speed of the college game is too much for him right now...and he's playing behind two seniors. Based on his brief outings so far he seems to have issues positioning himself around the paint and his lack of spacing suggests this. It's already been documented that strength is an issue and he hasn't shown himself to be strong with the ball. I don't expect Chase to be much of a factor at all this season. He's a year away at least from being a contributor.

[IrishDevil]

4 games...10 pts/4 reb. I would think he could get a few minutes over Amile/MP3 who are both serviceable, but not spectacular big men.

Those two "serviceable" big men put up 26 puts, 25 rebs (12 offensive), 6 blk, 4 pf, 2 TO on one of the best front courts in the country. Contributing half of that is a tall order for any freshman not named Jabari or Jahlil, and Chase, while promising, is not in their league.


Chase is going to be a very good player, but he's a project. Has no post moves, below-average strength, and no mid-range game. He'll gain those over time, because he's very young.

This. He may see more time as the season continues, but he has a ways to go before he displaces one of our two seniors, who have more strength, experience, skills, and leadership to offer than a promising, but raw, but freshman.

[arnie]

You're probably right. I'm surprised that projects are ranked so highly coming out of HS. With no post game, strength or mid range game - I would think a player needs elite athleticism, but I'm not sure if Chase has that. Nothing against Chase of course.

Recall not being impressed with his play in the McDonalds game and assumed this would take a while. At least we get to see him for several years.

[mo.st.dukie]

You're probably right. I'm surprised that projects are ranked so highly coming out of HS.

Well of course the rankings of an individual player is dependent on his talent relative to the other players in his class. Jabari Parker is the #1 player in most classes but in the 2013 class he was #2. In some classes projects can be highly ranked whereas that same player could be lower ranked in another class. The 2015 class was known to be a relatively weak class and certainly not a very deep class so it's not that surprising that a project could be highly ranked.

[mgtr]

Hey, give thanks for having Amile, the current incarnation of Lance Thomas. He does a lot.

[eddiehaskell]

Those two "serviceable" big men put up 26 puts, 25 rebs (12 offensive), 6 blk, 4 pf, 2 TO on one of the best front courts in the country. Contributing half of that is a tall order for any freshman not named Jabari or Jahlil, and Chase, while promising, is not in their league. There's no doubt that MP3 and Amile had possibly career best games against UK, but lets not get carried away by the thought of that game being indicative of their overall game. My expectations of a top 14 recruit isn't the same as top 5 recruits like Ingram, Jah or Jabari, but I do think folks are mistaken in thinking there should be no expectations. Just take a look at almost all of the top 25 recruits in the 2015 class - they are playing significant minutes and making measurable contributions. I'm sure some of them are on teams with upperclassmen at their position as good or better than Amile/MP3....

[eddiehaskell]

Well of course the rankings of an individual player is dependent on his talent relative to the other players in his class. Jabari Parker is the #1 player in most classes but in the 2013 class he was #2. In some classes projects can be highly ranked whereas that same player could be lower ranked in another class. The 2015 class was known to be a relatively weak class and certainly not a very deep class so it's not that surprising that a project could be highly ranked.The thing is...almost every player that was ranked in the top 25 for 2015 is doing pretty well this season (including the big men).

[CajunDevil]

Thoughts:
Character building win tonight. K's adjustment to go small was what turned the game. Ingram seems so passive on the court, and his lack of strength resulted in a few turnovers. He had a nice drive and pass to Amile, and several nice rebounds where he just kept extending... but his defense has been nonexistent. He looks like he's grown too fast and his coordination hasn't yet caught up with his body. I would sit Ingram and start Plum, Amile, Grayson, Matt and Derryck instead.

I love Thornton. He plays with passion, is super quick, has really good court vision and has some Tyus in him (i.e., not afraid to take big shots). He is further along than I thought he would be at this point and by no means a finished product, but he is currently our best Freshman... and it's not close.

Matt Jones had a horrendous first half. K can't make Matt a PG... he is not a playmaker and needs to be put in positions to succeed (i.e., set up on the wing and have a limited ball handling role). I was glad to see Matt have a really good second half.

Luke is getting there... His shot will fall soon. His effort was great tonight.

Grayson had an excellent game - was huge on the boards and efficiently got 30 point

Overall, a gritty effort for the last 12 minutes - something to build on. We know our PG is game ready. We are still waiting on Ingram and Kennard to show glimpses of who they can be... When that happens we will be much more competitive with the likes of Kentucky.

Amile is such a warrior. He did a great job being a presence on the boards and in the paint.

Free Throws... ugh

CajunDevil

[53n206]

Our players improved as the game went on. We are very young. We will get better. Allen had a great game tonight, thank goodness for him . I think that in time our defense will be outstanding. I also hope our defense will be outstanding.

[duke09hms]

The thing is...almost every player that was ranked in the top 25 for 2015 is doing pretty well this season (including the big men).

Too early to say. Small sample size and mostly playing cupcakes.

[Edouble]

I thought VCU got worn out down the stretch big time. I saw a lot of fatigue fouls and short shots the last 8-10 minutes from the Rams. Very different than the first 3/4 of the game, our move to small ball not withstanding.

Great game for Grayson, of course.

Luke needs to keep shooting. It will come. I love having an offensive minded lefty coming in off the bench to mess with other team's defenses.

Ingram... doesn't seem to have a killer instinct. Doesn't seem like he's foaming at the mouth to send you hope with an L. I think we need to get this kid a little angrier.

If you weren't on the DT bandwagon after the Kentucky game... welcome, good to finally have you aboard!

I wrote this over in the in game thread too, but Chase Jeter logging zero minutes at least saved us from the perfect segue for Dick Vitale to start a love fest on Derek Jeter.

[Native]

Had a great time tonight in the Garden! Thought this was a real "grind it out" type of game, which should help the team's psyche in terms of confidence. Finding ways to win games that aren't a guarantee is important for a young team. Onward!

[Edouble]

Had a great time tonight in the Garden! Thought this was a real "grind it out" type of game, which should help the team's psyche in terms of confidence. Finding ways to win games that aren't a guarantee is important for a young team. Onward!

79-71 is a grind it out game?

We might have different definitions of "grind it out", or maybe it was the anxiety of watching it live, but at home it felt like a very fast paced, exciting, back and forth basketball game.

[Richard Berg]

Chase Jeter...0 minutes. Sadly, it looks like such a highly ranked recruit probably wont be a factor this season.

I think you're right, actually. But not because Jeter is a raw project, necessarily. K likes experienced big men, period.

For example, Mason Plumlee was a 1st-team AA waiting to blossom, but spent most of his frosh year on the bench, behind seniors who'd clearly hit a much lower talent ceiling (Zoub & LT). Being seniors, the latter had clear roles, which proved much more important than their physical limits. It took MP2 awhile to figure out his role. Until then, despite playing on a team that wasn't especially deep, he was #5 in minutes among big men (and #7 overall).

Yes, summer injury was a factor. But Jeter is probably not a future World Cup player, either.

[Wahoo2000]

I don't think I've seen K settle into a 7 man rotation this early in the season before. If it stays this way, how concerned are you guys with regards to:

a) late-season fatigue due to minutes accumulating
b) foul trouble in big games
c) injuries that would cause a player to miss a stretch of 5+ games

Also - do you guys think the last 2 are an aberration and that you WILL get back to an 8th and maybe even 9th guy getting some regular minutes (at least until we get well into conference play)?

[Edouble]

I think you're right, actually. But not because Jeter is a raw project, necessarily. K likes experienced big men, period.

For example, Mason Plumlee was a 1st-team AA waiting to blossom, but spent most of his frosh year on the bench, behind seniors who'd clearly hit a much lower talent ceiling (Zoub & LT). Being seniors, the latter had clear roles, which proved much more important than their physical limits. It took MP2 awhile to figure out his role. Until then, despite playing on a team that wasn't especially deep, he was #5 in minutes among big men (and #7 overall).

Yes, summer injury was a factor. But Jeter is probably not a future World Cup player, either.

I agree with the above. I would be surprised if Chase can break into Duke's top seven, the seven guys that saw the floor tonight.

If we are winning games with some zone and small ball lineups mixed in, I don't think Chase will get double digit minutes. At this point, it seems that Luke's ball handling and scoring from the perimeter are more valuable to fixing some of our issues on offense than whatever Chase brings to the table, despite the fact that Luke couldn't get it going tonight.

[Heaven's Guardian]

Free throw shooting from the frontcourt seems to be a curse of ours. I know K never does this, but I'd use Vrankovic as a cooler for the last minute or two in close games. Apparently he shot in the high seventies in high school, and those end-game layup lines are going to be a big problem when we have 3-5 point leads rather than 10-point ones.

[sagegrouse]

Chase Jeter...0 minutes. Sadly, it looks like such a highly ranked recruit probably wont be a factor this season.

Ingram continuing to struggle.

We'd be in BIG trouble if not for Thornton stepping up.


I don't think I've seen K settle into a 7 man rotation this early in the season before. If it stays this way, how concerned are you guys with regards to:

a) late-season fatigue due to minutes accumulating
b) foul trouble in big games
c) injuries that would cause a player to miss a stretch of 5+ games

Also - do you guys think the last 2 are an aberration and that you WILL get back to an 8th and maybe even 9th guy getting some regular minutes (at least until we get well into conference play)?

I think the rotation is match-up dependent. In a game such as tonight's, where MP3 doesn't get a lot of minutes, it is not surprising that Jeter sits. I don't think that's the normal situation. OTOH, if Amile, Marshall and Chase play, I believe we will use eight players for a good many minutes each.

Also, don't you sense that K really wanted to win this game?

[huey]

Man, Grayson's hammy is gonna be sore tomorrow... Hope he heals quickly Chris paul style.

[Wander]

I don't think I've seen K settle into a 7 man rotation this early in the season before. If it stays this way, how concerned are you guys with regards to:

a) late-season fatigue due to minutes accumulating
b) foul trouble in big games
c) injuries that would cause a player to miss a stretch of 5+ games

Also - do you guys think the last 2 are an aberration and that you WILL get back to an 8th and maybe even 9th guy getting some regular minutes (at least until we get well into conference play)?

I think this team is good but just not quite as good as most recent Duke teams, and thus these games are really important for seed lines down the road. The difference between the overall 1 seed vs another 1 seed vs a 2 seed is not a big deal to me. The difference between a 3 seed vs a 4 seed vs a 5 seed is a big deal. That's not a complaint or an overreaction to the Kentucky loss, it's how I felt in the preseason. The point is a VCU win vs a loss could definitely be the difference in these seed lines down the road... I think there's less room for error overall here.

[FireOgilvie]

Very good game from Thornton. Huge step forward. Glad to see him making improvement with each game.

I'm not sure what we're doing with Ingram out there. It seems like he doesn't know either. He needs a defined role.

We're much better when Kennard is in the game, as you can see by his team-leading season +/- total (+60). Ingram is +3 on the year. We have 18 lineups with a positive +/- total; Kennard is in 16/18 of those lineups, Ingram 9/18.

We're very good when Thornton, Kennard, and Allen are in the game together. Our top 2 lineups also include Matt + either Amile or Marshall (4 guard lineups). Thanks to Neals384 for putting those cumulative stats together.

[Saratoga2]

I think the rotation is match-up dependent. In a game such as tonight's, where MP3 doesn't get a lot of minutes, it is not surprising that Jeter sits. I don't think that's the normal situation. OTOH, if Amile, Marshall and Chase play, I believe we will use eight players for a good many minutes each.

Also, don't you sense that K really wanted to win this game?

Marshall and perhaps Chase will see time against teams with big 4's and 5's, where he can battle and his lack of quickness won't be an issue. While Marshall's battling early against Kentucky really was effective, I think Calipari adjusted and his second half was no where near as good. Certainly, last night coach K quickly realized that a lineup with Marshall would not do the trick so he went small and it worked well. Coach K will need to do further experimentation to determine how to play his bigs and also how to get the most from Brandon. One one the board wrote that he looked uncoordinated but I don't think that is the case. More to do with his lack of physical strength, although his shooting hasn't worked as yet, including his foul shooting. Lets hope he adjusts to the college game quickly and he continues to gain physical strength.

[Troublemaker]

I have nothing but positive vibes flowing in the aftermath of this game.

See, I have complete confidence in Ingram's talent. He may be struggling a bit right now when we've just played Game 4 of the season, but I bet by Game 25, Brandon will have established himself as the best all-around player on this team. I'm not worried about Brandon.

What I didn't know would happen, though, is that Derryck would establish himself as a reliable, energetic starting point guard that can harness his amazing dribbling skills and speed to play efficient basketball in the face of fierce opposition guard play by Game 4 of the season. I think that may be where we're at with him (although a few more data points would help, haha), and that's not too shabby considering he could be playing his senior season in high school right now and arrived at Duke later than his teammates. I'm very proud of him.

[Bluedevil114]

I thought VCU got worn out down the stretch big time. I saw a lot of fatigue fouls and short shots the last 8-10 minutes from the Rams. Very different than the first 3/4 of the game, our move to small ball not withstanding.

Great game for Grayson, of course.

Luke needs to keep shooting. It will come. I love having an offensive minded lefty coming in off the bench to mess with other team's defenses.

Ingram... doesn't seem to have a killer instinct. Doesn't seem like he's foaming at the mouth to send you hope with an L. I think we need to get this kid a little angrier.

If you weren't on the DT bandwagon after the Kentucky game... welcome, good to finally have you aboard!

I wrote this over in the in game thread too, but Chase Jeter logging zero minutes at least saved us from the perfect segue for Dick Vitale to start a love fest on Derek Jeter.

VCU was rotating 11 players compared to Duke rotating 7 players. I do not think it was fatigue that the VCU players were dealing with more than just the pressure and Spotlight of beating a top 5 team in one of the most historic arenas in the world.

I was pleasantly surprised that Coach continued to keep Kennard in the game. I love his hustle and tenacity. When his shots start falling, watch out. You can tell he has a very good shooting form. Nothing like JJ, Trajon or Andre but much better than most. He just needs confidence. Even his foul shouts he looked nervous but was happy to see them go in. Sometimes all you need is to see the ball go in the net and then the damn breaks. I think he settles down and scores double digits on Sunday.

Go Duke.

[Bob Green]

1. Grayson Allen's right hamstring is bothering him. The staff will be keeping a close eye on it. Hamstring injuries can linger.
2. Derryck Thornton is going to be solid and perhaps very good running the point.
3. I'm have no idea what the +/- numbers reflect, but the eye test says the Amile Jefferson plus four guards line-up is very effective. The team looked strong with Jefferson, Jones, Allen, Thornton and Kennard on the court together.
4. Kennard needs a couple of shots to fall so he can get in a rhythm. He plays with energy and is taking good shots so they will start falling. Neither of his two made free throws were clean, the ball bounced and rolled on the rim before falling.
5. Our free throw shooting is atrocious. Over the past two games, the numbers are 33-57 (57.9%). That could cost us dearly in close games.

Overall, a good win over a talented opponent with pluses and minuses as takeaways. The season just started so it is going to be fun to watch the maturation process unfold.

[Troublemaker]

Chase is going to be a very good player, but he's a project. Has no post moves, below-average strength, and no mid-range game. He'll gain those over time, because he's very young.

Jeter has both. You'll see them displayed later on in the season as he steadily gains more playing time. The game has to slow down for him and he has to learn how to communicate and help like a Duke big man, but Chase is a very skilled big man.


4 games...10 pts/4 reb. I would think he could get a few minutes over Amile/MP3 who are both serviceable, but not spectacular big men.

He will definitely get minutes, just not in a game where smallball is the answer.



I give coach K a ton of credit for seeing that our small quicker team had a distinct advantage on the VCU team. Good win coach and a good learning experience.

Same. With our normal 2-big look, VCU was the quicker team and was causing Duke the same problems that Kentucky did -- pressuring us into turnovers and beating us in transition. When Duke went small, Duke became the quicker team and really controlled the game. If we had hit our free throws, we could've had a comfortable 15-point win. Props to Derryck for again handling well an opponent's quality pressure defense.

[MChambers]

With our normal 2-big look, VCU was the quicker team and was causing Duke the same problems that Kentucky did -- pressuring us into turnovers and beating us in transition. When Duke went small, Duke became the quicker team and really controlled the game. If we had hit our free throws, we could've had a comfortable 15-point win. Props to Derryck for again handling well an opponent's quality pressure defense.
Raise your hand if you thought the Jefferson Jones Kennard Allen Thornton lineup would be the best lineup in the fourth game of the season. Guess we should have seen that coming, given Coach K's approach over the years, but I was still a little surprised.

I thought this was a great win. VCU is exactly the kind of team that should give this Duke team trouble, but Duke took VCU's best shot and took over the game down the stretch.

As Troublemaker says, if only we had hit our free throws, we would have won by double figures.

Thornton and Kennard both showed me a lot. When Kennard's jumper starts falling, look out. Same for Ingram, although I think his outside shot may be a little slower to come along.

I'd like to propose that K end the Matt Jones initiating the offense experiment right now. I don't know who the backup point is, maybe Kennard or Allen, but it isn't Jones. He's a wonderful player, with great defense and a nice outside shot, but it's painful to watch him try to start a halfcourt set.

[ChillinDuke]

If you weren't on the DT bandwagon after the Kentucky game... welcome, good to finally have you aboard!

Thanks for having me, happy to be here.

- Chillin

[jv001]

Props to Coach K for getting the team ready to play a good VCU team and for going small when to get us going. Great bounce back game from Grayson. He's a very good player who will get better. As I predicted Thornton would start and Grayson would come off the bench. Not because it was a message to Grayson, but we need a true point guard in the lineup and Grayson would not let this hurt his confidence as it would Ingram. Of course he could have brought Matt off the bench, but Matt has been playing pretty good. Thornton played a great game for his first start. He has a lot of confidence and will only get better. As for Jeter not playing, I would like to see Chase use the jump hook when he's in the game. I think he used that a lot his senior year. I know college bb is way above high school, but I still believe he can use it with his long frame. I'm hoping Grayson is over his hamstring problems by Sunday. As CDU mentioned on chat last night, Grayson had problems with his hammies in both legs. GoDuke!

[jv001]

Raise your hand if you thought the Jefferson Jones Kennard Allen Thornton lineup would be the best lineup in the fourth game of the season. Guess we should have seen that coming, given Coach K's approach over the years, but I was still a little surprised.

I thought this was a great win. VCU is exactly the kind of team that should give this Duke team trouble, but Duke took VCU's best shot and took over the game down the stretch.

As Troublemaker says, if only we had hit our free throws, we would have won by double figures.

Thornton and Kennard both showed me a lot. When Kennard's jumper starts falling, look out. Same for Ingram, although I think his outside shot may be a little slower to come along.

I'd like to propose that K end the Matt Jones initiating the offense experiment right now. I don't know who the backup point is, maybe Kennard or Allen, but it isn't Jones. He's a wonderful player, with great defense and a nice outside shot, but it's painful to watch him try to start a halfcourt set.

I was pleased to see Kennard keep his head in the game even though his shot is off. He played a good floor game. I'm with you about Matt playing the point, I hold my breath when he runs the point. I guess Ingram would be our 2nd best point forward/guard. His confidence is way down because he has not shot the ball well. He's even had trouble making is FTs. GoDuke!

[Furniture]

I don't think I've seen K settle into a 7 man rotation this early in the season before. If it stays this way, how concerned are you guys with regards to:

a) late-season fatigue due to minutes accumulating
b) foul trouble in big games
c) injuries that would cause a player to miss a stretch of 5+ games

Also - do you guys think the last 2 are an aberration and that you WILL get back to an 8th and maybe even 9th guy getting some regular minutes (at least until we get well into conference play)?

Isn't it too early to predict a 7 man rotation? I mean is one game a sign of K settling?

[MarkD83]

Isn't it too early to predict a 7 man rotation? I mean is one game a sign of K settling?

The sample size is too small (just a little tweak of the stats guys on the board)

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I was wanting to see Jeter and Obi play until smallball started changing the score in our favor. I told K through my TV don't change a thing.

[CDu]

My thoughts:

- Credit to VCU: they brought it last night, and for much of the game had me wondering about 2007. Thankfully Coach K found the right mix to pull out the win.

- Speaking of lineups, the ultra small ball lineup (with Kennard at the 4 and Jefferson at the 5) was the key to the comeback. That being said, I wouldn't look to that as a key moving forward. VCU lacks height, and their style is such that having extra ballhandlers is at a premium. It was only smallball relative to our norms: Kennard was a nominal 4, but was still defending a perimeter type player. This kind of was a case in which K took what VCU was dictating and adapted accordingly, proving that sometimes you have to accept that the other team is dictating the game, rather than imposing your team's will on the game. Good on K to make that switch.

- A nice bounceback for Allen, although it is somewhat matchup-driven. VCU wants to play an open court game, which is where Allen excels. And they lacked the size to challenge him at the rim. Still, it was good to see Allen take advantage. It was also great to see him utilize the midrange game a couple of times too. He will need that against better/bigger teams.

- What a nice game from Thornton! He is growing into a player quickly. I don't expect all games to be this good, but he certainly built on the few nice moments in the UK game. He was the key to keeping us in the first half. The talent is there for sure.

- Speaking of the talent being there, I am confounded by Kennard's start to the season. He seems to be doing all the right things. But the ball just isn't going in right now. Last night he showed some clever head fakes and hesitation dribbles to create open looks for himself, but the shots just didn't fall. He clearly belongs, but the shots need to start going in.

- It was another rough game for Ingram. He looks a little slow out there, which I didn't expect. Multiple times he got blown by off the dribble despite giving space, which also happened against UK. And he just hasn't figured out how to utilize his length on offense either. It is a long season, though, so hopefully he will get it straightened out.

- After a phenomenal game by each of the three captains, it was a bit of a mixed bag last night. Jefferson was solid defensively and reliable in helping break the press, but was otherwise quiet. Jones was more what I expected from him, with a few extra mistakes sprinkled in as he tried to do too much. Plumlee continued his return to Earth from the second half of the UK game. He was a nonfactor on offense and struggled to be in the right spot defensively.

- It was a 7-man rotation last night, but I wouldn't read too much there. As with "smallball", this was dictated by the matchup. VCU was too small, too perimeter-oriented, and quick for Jeter to be useful. Against more traditional lineups, I think Jeter will see 5-15 mpg. Tomorrow we should see that.

Thank goodness for the win! Hopefully this helps build the team's confidence back up.

[rsvman]

I thought it was a pretty good win against a pretty good foe; maybe kind of like a second-round NCAA game?

I love what Kennard brings to the table, even without scoring. He is solid on the defensive end and he doesn't throw the ball away. He will eventually start hitting shots, and when he does, it's going to be hard to keep him off the court. Coach K's keeping him in the lineup despite his cold shooting was definitely the right thing to do.

Ingram looks lost on the defensive side, and even a little bit on the offensive side, as well. He seems to be overly tentative with occasional bursts where he is overly aggressive. I am hoping that he will settle in over time.

Very happy with Thornton. Shades of Cook on a couple of drives last night.


I think this team will be quite good at some point in the season. We'll see where the ceiling is as the season progresses.

[sagegrouse]

My thoughts:

- Credit to VCU: they brought it last night, and for much of the game had me wondering about 2007. Thankfully Coach K found the right mix to pull out the win.

- Speaking of lineups, the ultra small ball lineup (with Kennard at the 4 and Jefferson at the 5) was the key to the comeback. That being said, I wouldn't look to that as a key moving forward. VCU lacks height, and their style is such that having extra ballhandlers is at a premium. It was only smallball relative to our norms: Kennard was a nominal 4, but was still defending a perimeter type player. This kind of was a case in which K took what VCU was dictating and adapted accordingly, proving that sometimes you have to accept that the other team is dictating the game, rather than imposing your team's will on the game. Good on K to make that switch.

.
FWIW, VCU started Tillman and Alie-Cox, both 6-7, and guards sized 6-1, 6-4 and 6-5. Gilmore (6-10) and Hamdy (6-9) played a total of 17 minutes.

[superdave]

Duke was down 52-46. Thornton hits a big 3 which was the start of a 24-6 run. Duke never looked back.

That was a Tyus-esque 3 in my opinion. A gutsy shot that totally shifted momentum. I loved seeing this group have their first win where they had to guy it out.

[gofurman]

Recall not being impressed with his play in the McDonalds game and assumed this would take a while. At least we get to see him for several years.

Heck, I kinda assumed this would be a down year since we won the title last year which encourages kids to leave. I will ALWAYS take a national title and a 'down' year over two very good years.

But my point is hopefully this leads to Jeter being here a few years + maybe Ingram? I know, Ingram is projected to go so high and he has the skills... but some will depend on his play this year.

Any information here - So are we just not going to see Obi this year??? Is that a given - except in blowouts?

[superdave]

Heck, I kinda assumed this would be a down year since we won the title last year which encourages kids to leave. I will ALWAYS take a national title and a 'down' year over two very good years.

But my point is hopefully this leads to Jeter being here a few years + maybe Ingram? I know, Ingram is projected to go so high and he has the skills... but some will depend on his play this year.

Any information here - So are we just not going to see Obi this year??? Is that a given - except in blowouts?

Obi will play when the matchup warrants it. Think vs Kennedy Meeks or BJ Anya.

[dukelifer]

My thoughts:

- Credit to VCU: they brought it last night, and for much of the game had me wondering about 2007. Thankfully Coach K found the right mix to pull out the win.

- Speaking of lineups, the ultra small ball lineup (with Kennard at the 4 and Jefferson at the 5) was the key to the comeback. That being said, I wouldn't look to that as a key moving forward. VCU lacks height, and their style is such that having extra ballhandlers is at a premium. It was only smallball relative to our norms: Kennard was a nominal 4, but was still defending a perimeter type player. This kind of was a case in which K took what VCU was dictating and adapted accordingly, proving that sometimes you have to accept that the other team is dictating the game, rather than imposing your team's will on the game. Good on K to make that switch.

- A nice bounceback for Allen, although it is somewhat matchup-driven. VCU wants to play an open court game, which is where Allen excels. And they lacked the size to challenge him at the rim. Still, it was good to see Allen take advantage. It was also great to see him utilize the midrange game a couple of times too. He will need that against better/bigger teams.

- What a nice game from Thornton! He is growing into a player quickly. I don't expect all games to be this good, but he certainly built on the few nice moments in the UK game. He was the key to keeping us in the first half. The talent is there for sure.

- Speaking of the talent being there, I am confounded by Kennard's start to the season. He seems to be doing all the right things. But the ball just isn't going in right now. Last night he showed some clever head fakes and hesitation dribbles to create open looks for himself, but the shots just didn't fall. He clearly belongs, but the shots need to start going in.

- It was another rough game for Ingram. He looks a little slow out there, which I didn't expect. Multiple times he got blown by off the dribble despite giving space, which also happened against UK. And he just hasn't figured out how to utilize his length on offense either. It is a long season, though, so hopefully he will get it straightened out.

- After a phenomenal game by each of the three captains, it was a bit of a mixed bag last night. Jefferson was solid defensively and reliable in helping break the press, but was otherwise quiet. Jones was more what I expected from him, with a few extra mistakes sprinkled in as he tried to do too much. Plumlee continued his return to Earth from the second half of the UK game. He was a nonfactor on offense and struggled to be in the right spot defensively.

- It was a 7-man rotation last night, but I wouldn't read too much there. As with "smallball", this was dictated by the matchup. VCU was too small, too perimeter-oriented, and quick for Jeter to be useful. Against more traditional lineups, I think Jeter will see 5-15 mpg. Tomorrow we should see that.

Thank goodness for the win! Hopefully this helps build the team's confidence back up.
I agree that this was a huge game for Thornton- big stage - adversity in the game and he hit big shots and played aggressively. The kid is a gamer and you need gamers. Some kids get nervous in big moments. Ingram remains a mystery. It wasn't that he missed shots but he made some very bad decisions with the ball. His rebounding at the end of the game however was a big plus. But he needs to consider a closer-in game- maybe midrange. He can be tough at 10-12 ft. He can be Kevin Durant in a few years. Kennard's shooting will hopefully come but the speed of the game is affecting him- and who knows what else. That said- he competed and made some plays that will not show up in the box score. Amile, Matt and Marshall were solid and that is what we should expect. Grayson of course showed a lot of toughness and clearly put the bad game behind him. This team is solid and will only be very good once Ingram figures out how he can play at this level. He is the key. Until then it will be a bit of adventure.

[jv001]

I agree that this was a huge game for Thornton- big stage - adversity in the game and he hit big shots and played aggressively. The kid is a gamer and you need gamers. Some kids get nervous in big moments. Ingram remains a mystery. It wasn't that he missed shots but he made some very bad decisions with the ball. His rebounding at the end of the game however was a big plus. But he needs to consider a closer-in game- maybe midrange. He can be tough at 10-12 ft. He can be Kevin Durant in a few years. Kennard's shooting will hopefully come but the speed of the game is affecting him- and who knows what else. That said- he competed and made some plays that will not show up in the box score. Amile, Matt and Marshall were solid and that is what we should expect. Grayson of course showed a lot of toughness and clearly put the bad game behind him. This team is solid and will only be very good once Ingram figures out how he can play at this level. He is the key. Until then it will be a bit of adventure.

This is my thinking as well. I know it's early in the season, but for Duke to be very good, Ingram needs to be as good as most recruiting experts picked him to be. He does look a little slow, but this could be from thinking way too much and just not playing basketball. Once he get's used to Duke's defense and his shot starts going in, he will probably be ok. GoDuke!

[ArtVandelay]

Reactions from MSG last night:

- It felt like we spent a lot of time in the 2-3 zone last night, and I thought it was reasonably effective. We were able to force more turnovers and bad shots in the second half, and I think part of the credit is due to mixing up our defenses. It looks like this will be a fixture this season and not just a temporary patch like last year. Maybe if the man-to-man gels later in the season we'll see K revert to form and ditch it, but I am ok with relying on it more heavily.

- Predictably, it seemed like there was a fair amount of pre-season chatter about this being the year that Duke plays a deep rotation and presses on defense. Equally predictably, it's not. In fact, if anything, it seems more likely that the personnel this year is more suited to a lower tempo, grind it out style that relies on solid D and rebounding. Amile, MP3, Jones, Kennard, and even Ingram strike me as "effective half court execution" type guys more so than up-and-down athletic types. Obviously with Thornton and Allen we have some speed to push it when we need to, but I don't expect this to be a fast-breaking team.

- I know it's early, but I worry whether Ingram might be a bit of a tweener for the college game. When he is at the 3, he looks a step slow against smaller wing players. I wonder if he has a post arsenal that he can deploy against smaller players so that he can back them down and shoot over them. Right now, he's trying to take guys off the dribble, and it hasn't been effective. It seems like he would be best suited to play the R. Kelly stretch 4 position, but his jump shot doesn't seem to be there yet for that role either. It will be interesting to see how his role develops over time. I agree with others that it wouldn't be a surprise to see him on the bench to start the game tomorrow.

- Hopefully this game has solidified that, as much as everyone (especially K) loves Matt Jones, he is not -- and should not try to be -- a playmaker. It felt like more often than not when he had the ball in his hands for an extended period trying to create offense, something bad happened. No doubt he's a critical player for us in terms of leadership, toughness, defense, and shooting, but I'm hoping that we can settle on a PG rotation involving Thornton and Kennard that doesn't require Matt to do any heavy lifting in the ball handling department.

- Why the heck was Amile in-bounding the ball against a pressing team? It felt like there were too many times yesterday when Amile was dribbling the ball the length of the floor, and I was like "what is going on? please pass the ball to someone!" A minor point, but I don't know that Amile is the guy to fulfill that role (I think maybe K stopped trusting Ingram after making several stupid passes on inbounds against UK?).

- Last point is that I didn't expect VCU fans to be so hostile to Duke. Not sure where that came from. Near where I was sitting, there was a lot of booing of Duke players and Coach K in particular, and an awful lot of terping about officiating pretty much from the start of the game. On what felt like maybe the first or second whistle of the game, a guy in front of me yelled "How much is K paying you, ref?!" or something to that effect. I've become fairly used to this over the years, but I was a bit surprised to see it from VCU fans given that there is no hostility between the two programs that I'm aware of. Also, a predictably weak showing from Duke fans last night. The crowds at these Garden games are so tame these days. The VCU fans were way louder, for sure. I'll be there Sunday trying to do my part.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I know its ealry but the chemistry doesn't seem to be where it needs. Ingram almost looks too cool (insert sarcasm), out there. I don't think any of the upperclassmen have the on floor leader qualities we've had. A few times last night it looked like a blame game amongst guys on the floor when they beat us and got an and 1.

[gurufrisbee]

All the speculation on starters and line ups and rotations is going to not work well for three big reasons:

A) the depth and balance. Last year we had four clear stars who we all knew should be starting every single game without question. The gap between 4 and 5 was ENORMOUS. This year it's going to be hard to imagine anyone who is that far ahead of the next six or seven guys. Even with as well as Allen and Amile have played, they could easily be just as good off the bench.

B) Ingram. Can he score? We think so. Can he rebound? He has the height, but no size or strength. So really there is no telling if he deserves to be a starter or not and if he does whether he works as the 3 or the 4. And the range of possibilities with this is enormous. And obviously it affects everyone else.

C) Thornton. Kid is supposed to be getting ready to start his senior year of high school basketball season. Instead he's playing against Kentucky and starting in MSG. As the only true PG he's going to be pushed to play a lot - but often he's not going to be ready. Going to be lots of ups and downs.

[Saratoga2]

I thought it was a pretty good win against a pretty good foe; maybe kind of like a second-round NCAA game?

I love what Kennard brings to the table, even without scoring. He is solid on the defensive end and he doesn't throw the ball away. He will eventually start hitting shots, and when he does, it's going to be hard to keep him off the court. Coach K's keeping him in the lineup despite his cold shooting was definitely the right thing to do.

Ingram looks lost on the defensive side, and even a little bit on the offensive side, as well. He seems to be overly tentative with occasional bursts where he is overly aggressive. I am hoping that he will settle in over time.

Very happy with Thornton. Shades of Cook on a couple of drives last night.


I think this team will be quite good at some point in the season. We'll see where the ceiling is as the season progresses.

I see Thornton as a uniquely gifted kid due to his great speed and quickness. He also has a very solid handle and excellent floor awareness. Now what he needs is experience to become one of those impossible players to stop.

[Billy Dat]

Huge game for Grayson, great bounce back from Kentucky.

I don't think it is possible for this to be overstated. The Kentucky game was a humbling slap down, but Grayson's run of 30 or near 30 point games to start this year is out of freakin control. It's not just "glad to see Grayson back in form". What form? What history suggested that Grayson Allen would be ripping off 30 point games? It's funny how production this awesome can so quickly be viewed as the normal expectation. His game, on Broadway so to speak, in the wake of many nationwide cooling on him was amazing!!!!


Duke was down 52-46. Thornton hits a big 3 which was the start of a 24-6 run. Duke never looked back. That was a Tyus-esque 3 in my opinion. A gutsy shot that totally shifted momentum. I loved seeing this group have their first win where they had to guy it out.

Thornton was great. The 3 you mention was huge, and he had also scored most of our other points in the half at that stage, and taken a few of the shots, and he made the lay-up that put us up for good at the 11 minute mark. His defense was solid, he handled the pressure. I am thrilled at his emergence and let's hope he continues to play well. Also, and I don't mean to harp on this, but the narrative about his reclassification and how he's young and green...ok, I get it. But, he is 18, he had stayed back a year at some point so he is college age. And, Findlay Prep is a mid-major D1 team masquerading as a prep school. He's been playing high level basketball for years. Yes, he's a freshman but he's more than ready to tackle D1 college ball and I am glad he's being given the chance to start and run the team.


Two things...Just think how good we will be when Brandon has his break out game...Luke was the difference for me in the second half...energy!!!

First Luke. K called him out in the press conference as being a kid who made a major contribution without scoring, which he said is a great sign when a kid can shake off his shots not falling and be in the moment for everything else. There was at least 2 times when he saved possessions by fighting for rebounds and either forcing the other team to step on the end line or turn it over or what have you. As K said, that shot is going to start to fall. As for Ingram, I have 2 takes. #1, he is playing with zero confidence. When he catches the ball on offense, he has no intent. He is not getting it, squaring up in triple threat and making himself a threat that has to be dealt with. We need him to be that guy so that defenses have to pay attention to him. When the game turned last night, we had a line-up like that...Thornton, Allen, Kennard, Jones and Amile...when those perimeter guys caught the ball, they were threats and it opened everything up. In the presser, K said he junked calling anything and just had them run motion looking to, in my words, unclog the toilet. It worked. It helps to hit shots, but we took good shots. Back to Ingram, the #2 thing is I think he is too used to being the biggest guy out there. His passes are lazy and thrown as if no one is as tall as him, he is used to throwing over people. So, I think the speed and strength of the D1 game are an adjustment, but I think it's more that he doesn't know who he is yet. Someone upthread talked about the coaches needing to help him find an identity and I readily agree. The nice thing is that he represents huge upside for the team when it clicks for him.


Obi will play when the matchup warrants it. Think vs Kennedy Meeks or BJ Anya.

Obi will play in the last 3 minutes of a December home game when we are winning by 30.


Reactions from MSG last night:

-It felt like we spent a lot of time in the 2-3 zone last night.

-Also, a predictably weak showing from Duke fans last night. The crowds at these Garden games are so tame these days. The VCU fans were way louder, for sure. I'll be there Sunday trying to do my part.

To my eyes, he used the zone pretty strategically, once when there was a dead ball TV timeout with 8 seconds left on the shot clock, we came out 2-3 and it confused VCU enough that they rushed a shot at the end of the clock. I like how he sprinkles it in.

Your comments about the Duke NYC area crowds echo my own (I was there too) and it has been that way for years. Sadly, our alumni and NYC area fans are the wine and cheese crowd. There is no two ways about it. It perked up a little when we took the decisive run to take control of the game but it was really lame over all. The biggest cheer, aside from the wounded warrior representatives who heartily deserved it, was the sarcastic cheering when Ingram made 2 free throws in the final minute.

A couple other things:
-K talked about how important it is for players to make adjustments in game. Grayson did not vs Kentucky. Matt Jones did last night, he followed a poor first half with a very solid second half
-K credited our team defense with winning the game down the stretch. I will add that although our D wasn't great in the first half, VCU hit some RIDICULOUS 3s from beyond NBA range.
-K also said that we didn't let the missed free throws impact our defense, and credited Ingram with getting some big rebounds down the stretch which was a real positive

[kAzE]

Solid 2nd half by the team to come out with the W, but we probably struggled with this match up a bit more than we should have. VCU is a well coached team, and Johnson is a magnificent scorer, but we should have been more in control of that game heading into the last 5:00 minutes. Lots of careless, sloppy ball handling and passing through much of that game from several players, especially Matt Jones, who had 4 pretty bad turnovers. Quiet game overall from the veterans, who took a backseat to the youngsters in this one.

Thornton finally started showing some of his creativity with the ball, something that the team was sorely lacking on offense in the UK game. He can absolutely get his own shot when he wants to, and when gets his jumper going, he will put up some points. At this point, I think he's still looking to score rather than setting up teammates.

I wonder what the starting lineup will be going forward?

I think you have to consider Thornton and Allen as the starting back court, but who of the remaining 4 players would head to the bench? It could realistically be any of the 4. I'm excited to see what changes will happen in the next few games.

[COYS]

A lot has already been said, but I thought this was a really nice win. There were obvious mistakes made by basically every player at some point, but the team shook off stretches of bad play and weathered VCU's hot three point shooting to earn a win with a final score that was way closer than it should have been had we hit anywhere near an average number of free throws down the stretch. And we did all this on a night when Ingram struggled to score (though, as K mentioned in the presser, he stayed tough and made some key rebounds late), Jones turned the ball over more than we were expecting, and everyone not named Allen or Thornton struggled from three point range. Every single one of our players made solid in game adjustments (which the staff can probably be given a lot of the credit for), and by the end I think the team gained a little confidence and learned to trust each other. Clean up some of Matt, Derryck, and Brandon's turnovers, get Brandon to hit on a few more jumpers and otherwise get comfortable on offense, and get Luke going on his shooting and we're going to be a pretty dang good team.

I also like our defensive adjustments during this game. We did a great job limiting dribble penetration in the second half. As I said after the UK game, it was really the live ball turnovers that made VCU seem so potent on offense. Our half court defense has been somewhere between solid and really really good. We just need to take better care of the ball so we have a chance to set it up.

[Indoor66]

I think we made a lot of correctable mistakes. Some lazy passes, some mis-positioning, etc. I like this team for the long haul. They will settle down. Some practice, some tape time and some discussion should correct the issues.

[NSDukeFan]

As for Ingram, I have 2 takes. #1, he is playing with zero confidence. When he catches the ball on offense, he has no intent. He is not getting it, squaring up in triple threat and making himself a threat that has to be dealt with. We need him to be that guy so that defenses have to pay attention to him. When the game turned last night, we had a line-up like that...Thornton, Allen, Kennard, Jones and Amile...when those perimeter guys caught the ball, they were threats and it opened everything up. In the presser, K said he junked calling anything and just had them run motion looking to, in my words, unclog the toilet. It worked. It helps to hit shots, but we took good shots. Back to Ingram, the #2 thing is I think he is too used to being the biggest guy out there. His passes are lazy and thrown as if no one is as tall as him, he is used to throwing over people. So, I think the speed and strength of the D1 game are an adjustment, but I think it's more that he doesn't know who he is yet. Someone upthread talked about the coaches needing to help him find an identity and I readily agree. The nice thing is that he represents huge upside for the team when it clicks for him.

I wonder if the staff and Ingram are all trying to figure out what type of player he is going to be and maybe Coach doesn't want to limit him to any particular role, but try to use him in all kinds of ways. It hasn't worked well so far, but he is talented enough to be able to do lots of great things and may just have to figure out more what he can and cannot do yet at this level. Could be fascinating to watch.

[gep]

I wonder if the staff and Ingram are all trying to figure out what type of player he is going to be and maybe Coach doesn't want to limit him to any particular role, but try to use him in all kinds of ways. It hasn't worked well so far, but he is talented enough to be able to do lots of great things and may just have to figure out more what he can and cannot do yet at this level. Could be fascinating to watch.

Like he did for Jah, maybe Obi can "toughen up" Brandon...:cool:

[superdave]

I think we made a lot of correctable mistakes. Some lazy passes, some mis-positioning, etc. I like this team for the long haul. They will settle down. Some practice, some tape time and some discussion should correct the issues.

This is a great point. We have 46 turnovers through four games. Some of these - think Allen at end of first half vs UK - were just downright silly. This team will grow and some of these turnovers will go away. Similarly, I expect shot selection to improve. We will become more efficient because these guys are moving up the learning curve.

Defensively, I have seen the freshmen out of position on D a lot. I have seen them get caught flat footed, watching someone drive by. The upperclassmen can help cover up some of this with rotations. The more the young guys learn to talk and fight through screens, the less they will caught off guard. This is tougher than getting more efficient on offense. Defense under Coach K is hard. I expect Thornton to excel at it by March. I hope Coach K can pick the right defensive schemes to take care of the rest.

[Furniture]

Lovely morning today. Watching premier league soccer, nice cuppa tea and reading DBR. As I relax I have reflected a bit about Friday nights game. It was actually the first time I excitedly shouted at the TV this season. Friday night, Duke basketball, Duke comeback, exciting/frustrating young new Duke team, glass of wine and fun on DBR chat....
It really doesn't get much better....

[Bob Green]

...nice cuppa tea...

Run, don't walk, run down to the store and buy yourself some coffee!