PDA

View Full Version : MBB: Kentucky 74, Duke 63 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-17-2015, 09:45 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Furniture
11-17-2015, 09:47 PM
Teaching moment!

Ichabod Drain
11-17-2015, 09:48 PM
Juniors and Seniors - 44 points on 64% shooting
Freshman and Sophomores - 19 points on 21%

Looking forward to seeing these guys learn and get better.

Go Duke! VCU on Friday.

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2015, 09:48 PM
Juniors and seniors: 16 for 25
Freshmen and sophomores: 6 for 29.
Not too mention rebounding for the upperclassmen and turnovers for the underclassmen,

I don't think this team will ever be as good as last year's. But, it doesn't have to be. We'll be better than we were tonight, and I don't think there are any great teams this year, compared to 3-4 great teams last year.

gurufrisbee
11-17-2015, 09:48 PM
Juniors and Seniors: B

Freshmen and Sophomores: D-

Against Kentucky? Not nearly good enough.

grad_devil
11-17-2015, 09:48 PM
It looks like Kentucky's defense is well ahead of our offense.

For some reason, I'm not going all chicken-little (or SPHM) just yet. We didn't play particularly well, but I think many offenses will look pedestrian against Kentucky's length.

I'm looking forward to how we develop from this. Next play.

Amile Plumlee for player of the game - 28 pts / 25 rbs / 6 blocks.

grossbus
11-17-2015, 09:49 PM
Our bugs have a game like that and you expect a different result. Well, I would.

What a difference Tyus would make.

luburch
11-17-2015, 09:49 PM
Ehhh it's Novemeber.

Grayson and Ingram both ran into length and it phased them.

Plumlee and Jefferson were solid, but the team still allowed far too many offensive boards.

Saw on Twitter that Thornton and several teammates were getting into it. That's fine, they should be frustrated as they weren't playing so hot.

Team has a lot of room for improvement, but it's the third game of the season. I look forward to watching them figure it out.

Honestly think this Kentucky team is just as good as the team they had last year. They won't be 38-1, but those guards are dirty.

Furniture
11-17-2015, 09:50 PM
Juniors and Seniors: B

Freshmen and Sophomores: D-

Against Kentucky? Not nearly good enough.

Where is Grayson? His TO's did not help at all.

ChillinDuke
11-17-2015, 09:51 PM
Wasn't good.

Amile, Marshall, and Matt came to play. The other guys not so much. Derryck isn't ready yet. Grayson looked flat outmatched, didn't seem to go left, didn't make good decisions, and forced a ton. He probably should've drawn a few extra foul shots to be fair. Ingram was equally lost.

Perhaps the only real positive is that Kentucky didn't strike me as terribly impressive. Murray and Ulis looked good. The other guys looked supportive but not dominant. And Skal strikes me slight of frame. If he doesn't have top-notch offensive skills not sure he can bang. Will see.

Well, a lot lot to work on. It's plenty early in the season. Luckily a down year throughout the ACC (hopefully) may give us more wiggle room than normal.

- Chillin

Ichabod Drain
11-17-2015, 09:51 PM
Juniors and Seniors: B

Freshmen and Sophomores: D-

Against Kentucky? Not nearly good enough.

Not sure what the Juniors and Seniors need to do to get an A from you haha. Thought they were great tonight. Agree on the freshman and sophomores.

Troublemaker
11-17-2015, 09:52 PM
Wow, that Ulis/Murray backcourt is dynamite. Briscoe's a terrific third wheel as well.

Their backcourt controlled the game with their playmaking on offense and their ball pressure on defense, which pushed Duke's offense farther out and forced turnovers from us.

Just got to tip your cap. I thought Kentucky had the best talent this year, and I was just hoping to steal a game from them early in the season but they were ready for us. Not sure how UK turned the ball over so much in their first two games -- must've just been screwing around a bit.

I still like this Duke team a lot. It's possible only UK's backcourt could make us look so bad this season. We'll see.

mgtr
11-17-2015, 09:57 PM
Allen, Kennard, Ingram = 10 points. That has to change, and I am sure it will. Allen needs an option to outlet to Jefferson on the weak side on drives.

Kfanarmy
11-17-2015, 09:58 PM
Really tough against a reasonable defense to not have a PG, and at this point in the year reasonable is about as good as it gets. No interior passing. They were fortunate to get a bunch of rebounds early; without those this is a 25 pt loss. Missed FTs don't help. Those killed comeback potential two or three times. Gonna be a long road to any kind of defense.

The loss combined with listening to Bilas praise every odd bounce took some of the fun out of watching. They will get better, but there are a lot of things to work on, especially on D.

I think they have the potential to have tons of TO'S against a feisty quick D as well.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 10:00 PM
Ehhh it's Novemeber.

Grayson and Ingram both ran into length and it phased them.

Plumlee and Jefferson were solid, but the team still allowed far too many offensive boards.

Saw on Twitter that Thornton and several teammates were getting into it. That's fine, they should be frustrated as they weren't playing so hot.

Team has a lot of room for improvement, but it's the third game of the season. I look forward to watching them figure it out.

Honestly think this Kentucky team is just as good as the team they had last year. They won't be 38-1, but those guards are dirty.

Ingram ran into length??? Who is lengthier than him?

Pghdukie
11-17-2015, 10:02 PM
Hopefully this I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-whooping will be a lesson to the younger guys, you can't walk on the court with DUKE on your shirt and expect the other team to just lay down. You have to out work, out hussle, and out play your opponent. If not - add another L to your resume.

jipops
11-17-2015, 10:03 PM
Back down to Earth yet?

We're a good team right now but not one of the top tier teams. Yet I don't know who besides the cheats is a top tier team right now.

On the bright side I thought our two-man front court did a good job against a team that is superior athletically. With the exception of Matt Jones our back court played young, because it is young, and simply not as talented.

Ulis ate us up tonight. Thornton is supposed to be a strong defender but Ulis wiped the floor with him whenever he wanted. I thought this game ended at the end of the half. That was a nightmare ending and signified the lack of maturity this team has to work through.

Ingram really looked overwhelmed. I feel like he shut down a little mentally in this one. To me this is just part of the maturation process that a normal freshman just goes through. We didn't have normal freshmen last year. But we still have nice potential this year.

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 10:04 PM
It's a bummer to get smoked like that but I like the fact that K gave Thornton a lot of opportunity. Our offense had no flow so maybe K gives the youngster a chance to start and figure it out. He has scoring chops and defensive ego, if he gets a little confidence....

Props to MP3, Amile and Matt.

Grayson had a really bad game. So did Ingram although he showed some flashes of offense. I was most disappointed in his lazy passes.

Long way to go...interested in Ks post game comments.

Impressed with Kentucky. Ulis was a beast. Murray was as good as expected. Skal sucked and they still had their way. They are good.

lotusland
11-17-2015, 10:04 PM
Missed most of the game except for glances at TV over the bar during business dinner. Both Ingram and Thornton looked whipped with 10 minutes to play. They'll learn but win or lose you're Duke - hold your head up and get better.

J4Kop99
11-17-2015, 10:05 PM
Our young guys (and Grayson) struggled mightily. Great to see Marshall and Amile play so well, tho. Watching our guard play really makes me appreciate Tyus that much more...


There's a lot of room to grow and we've got the best coach in the business. Duke will be fine. Guards usually take the longest to adjust so not uncommon to struggle this early on. Especially against tremendous talent.

-I'm really looking forward to Kennard's first "break-out" game. I love everything about him on the court... other than the fact he has shot so poorly.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 10:05 PM
Grayson Allen = Ronda Rousey. Hope he gets off the mat.

eddiehaskell
11-17-2015, 10:06 PM
First time I've seen these guys play...

Thornton not as polished as past great Duke freshman PGs. Ulis should be charged with child ABUSE.

Ingram looks VERY thin...one of the thinnest players I've ever seen. This could be an issue deeper in the season when things get more physical.

Amile was our best player much to my surprise. He's always had the most heart.

Plumlee isn't a world beater, but he looked good out there. He hustles and makes stuff happen...for example, late in the game he had no options and drove to the basket from 3 pt line.

Jeter...looks soft and like a project. He makes soft cuts to the ball - the defender simply bumps him and steps in front for a steal. Was it him that couldn't inbound the ball one time and just threw it to UK? :confused: He doesn't look mean and doesn't play that way either.

Jones - like Amile and Plumlee, he does stuff. He creates offense and can pull the trigger from deep.

Allen and Kennard were no-shows so I don't know what to think...

Overall, Matt, Marshall and Amile played well - with the #1 recruiting class, you'd think that means we beat any team in the country. I never would've thought all four highly touted freshmen would combine for 13 pts on 4-18 shooting.

Potato Head
11-17-2015, 10:07 PM
So many sub-par performances by good players today, but somehow I still can't get too upset by this (November!). Kentucky fans and the haters will gloat and bless them for it, but this team is good enough (not individually, but as a collective) to be a factor in the ACC and in March, and I'm glad we have this experience to build upon.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 10:08 PM
Good game. Much to take away from this one.

Love our "meat and potatoes" front court of Amile and Marshall. I counted three times when Marshall blocked a shot and Amile wormed in to grab the ball, in the last six minutes of the first half alone.

Amile needs to touch the ball most possessions on offense. His handle is respectable and he is able to draw and reverse the ball without turning it over. His work around the basket has come a long way. I'm very impressed with the development of his game.

I want to see more Derryck Thornton. The team seemed like we could use a pure PG out there at times. I was impressed with Derryck on both sides of the ball. He seems incredibly raw, but like some coaching/microadjustments could have him really competing.

Grayson had a bad night. He hit rock bottom. Only place to go is up. He has one really good move and Kentucky's bigs were too long to use it tonight. He's gotta go left at some point.

Ingram has got to have more offensive versatility than what he has shown. Can he post up at all? I would love to see more than the pullup jumper. He's going to have a height advantage over defenders all year. This has got to translate to points for Duke. Would love to see some high low with Amile when Marshall is out of the game, because Amile is a legit finisher.

Matt Jones... I'm not sold yet. I think he's a very good wing defender, but he was not able to contain Ulis. Ulis is one of my favorite non-Duke players right now, and I thought he should have played more for Kentucky last year. Perhaps asking Matt Jones to guard Ulis is too much, but I thought that Thornton did as good, if not a better job on guarding Ulis. Matt Jones's shot selection needs help. He took two jumpers about four feet inside of the three point line tonight. That's not a good shot. Matt also had some issues with some less than crisp passes within the flow of the offense.

I like Jeter's game, but he looks like one of those guys that is gonna blow up his sophomore year. I'm not sure if he's a player yet.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-17-2015, 10:09 PM
I thought UK's defensive intensity on the wings was the difference in this one. Their ball handling/passing was impressive too, especially inside in traffic.

Duke was not able to get many good catch and shoot looks from the outside that they like. I think that was also due in part to some impatience by a young team and settling for quick drives without moving the ball around some to loosen up the D.

Neither team is near where they will be in March. They will be very good. It was a good game for the coaches to show them where the need to improve.

Cal is going to be all over them for not blocking out better and letting Plumlee and Jefferson kill them on the boards, while coach k will get after his guys to protect the ball better for sure. He'll want them to share the ball more and look for better shots too...not press and rush so much.

SCMatt33
11-17-2015, 10:11 PM
Well that felt a lot worse than the final score. Give some big props to the upperclassmen for making that happen. You can tell that Jefferson and Plumlee have played together for a long time. Kentucky has size on the inside like no one else in basketball. When Kentucky went hard after rebounds, Jefferson had no chance. It looked like when he used to have to play center. I also loved the way Plumlee and Jefferson worked together on the defense when they were both below the free throw line. They never both got caught challenging a shot while neither covered the weak side. That's something that can happen a lot and is very frustrating. In fact, it happened a ton to Kentucky tonight. For that reason, I won't go overboard about Duke's offensive rebounding given that many were uncontested, though they deserve a ton of credit for the ones that were. I also thought that when the guards were in position to, they did a good job helping on the defensive glass, especially Thornton.

Now all that being said, you can tell that these freshman are playing their third game together. It's hard to remember sometimes that Jah, Tyus, and Justise had played with each other a lot before and already had great chemistry before day one. I don't think Duke has even figured out its best five yet, which can be good or bad. Chemistry takes time to develop, often more than a few months of playing games together, and if it's not getting there by New Years, games will be all they have as real practices become fewer and farther between. Of course, it's hard to judge based on one game against one of the most talented teams in the country, but they theoretically have those same issues and came to play. I'll be keen to watch this weekend, because we'll start to know how much this was a bad night, like Georgetown in 2010 or ND in the ACCT last year, or whether there are some real underlying issues that put the team behind the 8-ball and needing to catch up on in a hurry.

Finally, I know Coach K is big on "position-less" basketball and putting the best five out there, and to a certain extent I agree. It's always best to have your best five on the floor. But that best is better when one of those five is a true point guard running an offense. It was no coincidence that Duke had only 9 assists to 16 turnovers and Duke's assist to FG rate of 40% tonight was actually above what they had done in the first two games, which means it's not just Kentucky's great defense causing that one. Knowing that he hasn't been around very long, I actually liked a lot of what I saw from Thornton. He made a ton of mistakes, but generally looked engaged IMO, which is more than you can say for some of his teammates tonight, and if he doesn't have to press and make as many plays on his own, he can really earn that job, and the fact that he earned a spot on the floor for much of the second half also says a ton about his ability to earn that job the rest of the way.

At the end of the day, this is one (bad) data point to look at, and in about two weeks time, we'll have a lot more data points to start to make a picture, and I have no idea what that picture will be. For now, at least we can say we didn't get blown out despite an awful night and please don't schedule the Champions Classic at the United Center ever again (0-2 there vs. 3-0 everywhere else).

NYBri
11-17-2015, 10:12 PM
#spoiledbytyus

luburch
11-17-2015, 10:12 PM
Ingram ran into length??? Who is lengthier than him?

Just because he is a lengthy guy doesn't mean that others with length can't bother him.

I think I said that right..

Troublemaker
11-17-2015, 10:13 PM
It's a bummer to get smoked like that but I like the fact that K gave Thornton a lot of opportunity. Our offense had no flow so maybe K gives the youngster a chance to start and figure it out. He has scoring chops and defensive ego, if he gets a little confidence...

Ditto.

Derryck was up and down but we would've gotten spanked much worse without him due to how incredible UK's ball pressure was. He was the only one of our guards who could create separation from that ball pressure with his dribbling. He made some plays after separating, too. Hit a couple from midrange (which is so key with UK's shotblockers around) and found some open shooters. Overall, I was pleased with him.

gurufrisbee
11-17-2015, 10:15 PM
Not sure what the Juniors and Seniors need to do to get an A from you haha.

Interior defense.

Seven less missed free throws.

eddiehaskell
11-17-2015, 10:19 PM
Thornton had FOUR careless turnovers and 3-7 from the field. I don't really see anything to get happy about. He's an elite PG so having the ability to handle defensive pressure shouldn't really be a surprise.

Ichabod Drain
11-17-2015, 10:19 PM
Interior defense.

Seven less missed free throws.

Most of UK points came from the fast break or their guards beating ours off the dribble which Marshall and Amile can't do much about.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-17-2015, 10:20 PM
MP3 played the game of his life. Really amazing against top level competition. Something positive to take away. Amile also played very well, and Matt held his own.

Everyone else had better be ready for running drills and game tape.

Allen in particular was flummoxed by early frustrations and needs to learn to keep his head in the game and not to repeat mistakes.

bedeviled
11-17-2015, 10:20 PM
It's the first time the freshman see that they have to play with more intensity and consistency in Division I than AAU. Overall, Duke and Kentucky both played appropriately for this time of year.

I disagree with some other people on two points: Thornton's and Grayson's nights.

I was surprised by how many people in chat were high on Thornton's game today. I was least impressed with his and Ingram's play today (and we had to play one of them at the point against such a good backcourt). Thornton had more fumbles and turnovers than made it into the boxscore, but it was defense that had me down. He frequently did not get back in transition despite playing at the point. He was also outplayed in the halfcourt. Also, I noticed that he'd stall out when picked at times, meaning that he'd stop working and act as though he just couldn't get around the pick. That left him on the wrong side of two Kentucky players during the drive and rebound. I notice a thing like that because it's a little trick a lazy guy like me uses to make it look like I'm working hard when I'm really not. I know people do this unconsciously as way to catch a rest, so I'm not faulting him other than to point it out as a learning opportunity and place for improvement.

On the other hand, chat participants were understandably discouraged by Grayson's night. He didn't have a good game, but I think he was in a very difficult situation. Kentucky repeatedly closed multiple guys down on him on drives - it wasn't just UK's length, but also the number of guys closed down on him. Matt, MP3, and Amile are fairly inactive on offense (other than screens) by nature and Thornton is not yet to the level of driving through the Kentucky defense. That left Grayson within the pounce of multiple Wildcats. Our movement offense was so limited that MP3 initiated multiple drives from the perimeter and Matt took some shots off the dribble, neither of which seem like good options for us.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-17-2015, 10:23 PM
The silver lining in this game is that:

1) We saw MP3 and Amile step up to the challenge of facing an elite frontcourt and thrive.

2) Hopefully K and the staff noticed Grayson/Matt as PG's just doesn't cut it against top competition. They're good players, but Jon Scheyer they ain't.

Thornton should start the rest of the year, let him grow, let him lead, and let him take his lumps now so that by March, we'll be ready for this type of game again.

Troublemaker
11-17-2015, 10:25 PM
So many sub-par performances by good players today, but somehow I still can't get too upset by this (November!). Kentucky fans and the haters will gloat and bless them for it, but this team is good enough (not individually, but as a collective) to be a factor in the ACC and in March, and I'm glad we have this experience to build upon.

Good job keeping things in perspective.

Also: this win draws UK even with Duke (1-1) in the head-to-head under Calipari. But Duke is still 2-1 in championships and holds the edge in head-to-head recruiting battles with them under Cal. Both of those things really burn Kentucky fans. Really, this was almost a must-win for them to keep their sanity. Props to UK, though. They definitely outplayed Duke tonight.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 10:26 PM
The silver lining in this game is that:

1) We saw MP3 and Amile step up to the challenge of facing an elite frontcourt and thrive.

2) Hopefully K and the staff noticed Grayson/Matt as PG's just doesn't cut it against top competition. They're good players, but Jon Scheyer they ain't.

Thornton should start the rest of the year, let him grow, let him lead, and let him take his lumps now so that by March, we'll be ready for this type of game again.

Agree with number two. I think Matt's best role is as a versatile stopper off the bench, a la (late) senior year Nate James. Similar players: big guards with a decent three point shot. Would love to have Derryck as the starting PG.

Tappan Zee Devil
11-17-2015, 10:27 PM
The silver lining in this game is that:


Thornton should start the rest of the year, let him grow, let him lead, and let him take his lumps now so that by March, we'll be ready for this type of game again.

Amen

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 10:28 PM
Thornton had FOUR careless turnovers and 3-7 from the field. I don't really see anything to get happy about. He's an elite PG so having the ability to handle defensive pressure shouldn't really be a surprise.

For me, it was more a body language thing. He looked like he was confident and ready to take it at the opponent. I wasn't seeing that from the other freshmen nor Grayson. Derryck was not a deer in the headlights and Ulis is a problem to deal with. He looked like he belonged out there, more than I thought he would. I guess a lot of us felt that way.

CameronBlue
11-17-2015, 10:29 PM
I want to see more Derryck Thornton. The team seemed like we could use a pure PG out there at times. I was impressed with Derryck on both sides of the ball. He seems incredibly raw, but like some coaching/microadjustments could have him really competing.



Yes. Thank you. The DBR concensus has been that DT just "isn't ready yet." Well no, he isn't ready to be handed the keys and told "it's your team. Take us as far as you can." But within the first 30 seconds of tonight's game it was apparent that Duke, this Duke team, will struggle desperately without a true point guard running the show. Having not seen either of the first 2 games I expected to see DT completely lost and out of his element and not ready for the big stage. Wrong. He has terrific instincts, finds the openings and penetrates well to either his left or right, head up, which leads to good decisions with the ball. He forced a few things, freshmen always will, but he was far more composed than I expected and he hit some very tough shots at mid-range. Really encouraged by his performance this evening.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 10:30 PM
I was pleased with Derryck. He has to be the point guard. He is the only one with the ball handling abilities to bring the ball up the court. I thought his turnovers were largely due to trying to make plays in tight spots, but at least he was trying. I was also thrilled with his defense. His on ball defense is superb. People don't cut off Ulis off the dribble. His team defense was sub par in spots, but that's to be expected when he missed the entire summer. Matt and Grayson cannot initiate the offense against teams with guards who can pressure the ball, DT can. He had some crappy post entry passes, but I have confidence he will improve. And if he's not in the game, Kennard needs to be bringing the ball up the court. Matt and Grayson just look unnatural initiating the offense. Making some poor decisions and looking unnatural atop being not good at it are two totally different things. One can get cured with experience, the other, way tougher.

Grayson wasn't getting the benefit of a lot of calls he got in the first couple games, expected, and it frustrated him. I was disappointed with his body language throughout the game. He knew he was off and he let it affect him, and subsequently affected the rest of the team.

Ingram played some pretty weak ball out there tonight. I have to think he'll improve. It was probably largely due to the fact that this was probably his worst basketball game in a decade.

I don't think, that this team is one with some of the inherent flaws that led to some early exits in the tournament in the past few years. We played poorly, and all of our perimeter guys played terribly except for Matt (who had to do WAY too much offensively), and as I said, I saw flashes from DT that make me optimistic about him.

I'd be shocked if this is not the worst game we play all year, and it was compounded by the fact that Kentucky is good. Ulis is probably the best PG in the country and Murray is just dirty.

I'm certainly not happy with this loss, but one would hope that things improve.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 10:30 PM
Just because he is a lengthy guy doesn't mean that others with length can't bother him.

I think I said that right..

Hahaha. Yeah, that's a tricky one!

Moved on to Maryland-Georgetown. Fingers crossed that Sulaimon singlehandedly chokes this game away and somewhat redeems our night.

Olympic Fan
11-17-2015, 10:31 PM
Good learning experience for the freshmen and for Grayson -- the five most inexperienced guys in the rotation.

Strong showing by our three veterans.

Don't go overboard on this game. Get a better feel for this team against VCU Friday night in New York (they're not nearly as good as Kentucky, but are better than Siena or Bryant), then against either Georgetown or Wisconsin Sunday -- both have bounced back from the opening losses to play better -- heck, as I type this, Georgetown and Maryland are tied well into the second half.

But I guess my main takeaway is that we can't be too upset that this year's freshmen aren't as mature as last year's remarkable crop. But they'll get better.

moonpie23
11-17-2015, 10:31 PM
couple of negatives.

1 - uliss is really good....as was murray and lee

2 - their younguns handled the big stage better than our younguns..


Couple of positives:

our younguns have skills

mp3 was awesome

amile and jones played well

it's only nov.

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 10:31 PM
Agree with number two. I think Matt's best role is as a versatile stopper off the bench, a la (late) senior year Nate James. Similar players: big guards with a decent three point shot. Would love to have Derryck as the starting PG.

Based on tonight I think you start Derryck and let Ingram come off the bench until he can take someone's spot. Matt Jones earned his start tonight.

S_West30
11-17-2015, 10:34 PM
This was an ugly game from the onset in all facets. As disappointed as I am, there were many things to learn and takeaway from this game. Here's my thoughts:

-If Grayson isn't playing like his usual self (like tonight), and Ingram isn't in the game, there is no threat of any dribble drive or a guy that can make his own shot on the court. Thornton and Kennard have the potential to grow into that, but at this point, against this good of competition, it's a wash. K needs to address this in some way, because without the threat of a shot creator, this offense is toast.
-Thornton was less out of control tonight, even though the turnover number he had might beg to differ. That said, with increased workload and minutes this has to be expected. He still seems unsure of himself and out of control more often than not, but I was happy to see some semblance of a jumpshot from him. Also, spending the majority of his time guarding Ulis, I thought he did really well. There were a couple occasions where he got lost and gave up on the possession, but as a whole, he was able to keep up with Ulis and make him get rid of the ball quicker than he would've liked.
-Maybe this was a one-time deal, but the physicality that both teams got away with throughout the game tonight was really surprising. The rule change that the NCAA had implemented over the off-season was primarily made to make the game smoother and create higher scoring games. One of the ways in which this was supposed to happen was with no more hand checking. Tonight, especially from Kentucky's side, hand checking was at a premium and I stubbornly waited for a foul to be called that never came. It will be interesting to see as the season progresses if this becomes more of the norm or if what we saw in the first couple games with whistles in abundance will be how these games are officiated.
-For the first time in his brief Duke career Grayson looked disinterested. He had always been the one to provide a spark to the team when they needed it most, but tonight his body language was quite off putting. It's obvious that his very, very poor shooting night affected his play on defense, but in the future, that can't be how he responds to off nights. There was at least one instance in the second half where K pulled him because of it, and hopefully he'll learn from that mistake.
-While the underclassmen performance was abysmal, the three upperclassmen came to play. Amile and Marshall were spectacular on the boards as well as on putbacks tonight, and without their great games, who knows how lopsided this loss could've been. Matt Jones is on the road to becoming Mr. Consistency with his great defense and outside shooting. These three were the lone bright spot on an otherwise tough to watch game.
-Now while Amile and Marshall were great all night doing their roles, they've become liabilities in half-court sets. Marshall spent most of his time on the perimeter screening and pivoting while looking for someone to pass to. Amile, on the other hand, didn't seem to post up nearly as much as he should have. By no means does he need to turn into Jah and get the ball on the block every possession, but he needs to make his presence felt down low so that the defense can't have an extra defender left to guard drivers and cutters in the paint.
-There were no patented Duke runs that we have become accustomed to seeing over the years, and that can be directly attributed to Kentucky's suffocating defense on the guards all night long. The lack of a reliable, true point guard was a huge problem tonight. Hopefully Thornton can grow into that role as the season goes along.
-Kentucky capitalized on Duke's 16 turnovers and turned them into 28 transition points. This goes back to the lack of a reliable point guard issue as another sign of the problems that come without having one. Give credit to Kentucky's defense, but there were also a plethora of times where errant passes were made and when the ball was stolen because of poor ball handling (mainly by Grayson and Derryck). Our guards cannot continue to shoot themselves in the foot when they need to get back into the game from a major deficit.

Numbers to note:
-Ingram and Kennard went a combined 1-11 from the field. The stage may have been a bit too bright for them tonight.
-Kentucky took 13 more shots than Duke even though they only won the offensive rebounding game by 2
-Amile had 16 points and 15 boards on 7-8 shooting; it's time to stop calling him just a glue guy

This was a teaching moment for this incredibly young team. Composure was the difference between the two teams tonight, and what we saw out of Tyler Ulis I think is fair to say reminiscent of how Tyus played last year, at his own pace and never feeling rushed. An early season loss against a top 5 opponent is nothing to be ashamed of, but the response to this game against a pesky VCU team will say a lot about the heart of this Duke team. Next play.

Go Blue Devils!

Coballs
11-17-2015, 10:35 PM
Based on tonight I think you start Derryck and let Ingram come off the bench until he can take smeone's spot. Matt Jones earned his start tonight.

Ingram is not coming off the bench...unless you want to quickly destroy his confidence.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 10:37 PM
Better to lose to UK in Nov than in March/April.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 10:37 PM
:mad:

Ingram is not coming off the bench...unless you want to quickly destroy his confidence.

If Thornton earned a spot, it's going to be Marshall or Amile's. Fact.

Next game, I wouldn't be shocked to see Grayson come off the bench.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 10:40 PM
If Thornton earned a spot, it's going to be Marshall or Amile's. Fact.

Next game, I wouldn't be shocked to see Grayson come off the bench.

Wait, what? I'm confused.

You are saying that Thornton has earned either Amile or Marshall's spot, but that Grayson is coming off the bench? So one of either Amile or Marshall, plus Grayson will be coming off of the bench on Friday?

Mike Corey
11-17-2015, 10:44 PM
All the pieces are there for an elite team come March. We have more distance to travel this year than last year, which really shouldn't be any surprise. Hard not to be excited about the individual elements that are there; as ever, savor the time to watch K mold athletes and young men of this caliber.

dukelifer
11-17-2015, 10:45 PM
Unfortunately, part of the learning process for this team and certain players. Clearly much work to do- but it is early. Let's see how they respond to this. Sadly, I expect a few more bumps in the early road.

SCMatt33
11-17-2015, 10:46 PM
If Thornton earned a spot, it's going to be Marshall or Amile's. Fact.

Next game, I wouldn't be shocked to see Grayson come off the bench.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Matt Jones is a pretty prototypical 3-and-D player right now. If Thornton, Ingram, and Allen can handle defending the perimeter, Matt's D is no longer a necessity in the starting lineup. That's certainly not a given, but I think it's possible. We saw tonight that the coaching staff is perfectly comfortable letting Ingram use his length to bother opposing guards and Grayson is big enough to defend most college 3's. That would leave Thornton only needing to guard whichever perimeter guy Duke doesn't feel the need to use Brandon's length on.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 10:47 PM
Wait, what? I'm confused.

You are saying that Thornton has earned either Amile or Marshall's spot, but that Grayson is coming off the bench? So one of either Amile or Marshall, plus Grayson will be coming off of the bench on Friday?

Not mutually exclusive.

In the long run, I think our starting line-up I think it will be DT, Gray, MJ, Ingram, and (insert Amile or Marshall here).

I don't think DT has locked down that spot by any means (even though I think he should), but Friday, would not be shocked to see DT, Matt, Ingram, Marshall, Amile.

Not gonna kill Grayson's confidence with a little bench action right now, see him come in guns a blazin, but I think we are a better team, in the long run though, starter.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 10:49 PM
I don't think that's necessarily true. Matt Jones is a pretty prototypical 3-and-D player right now. If Thornton, Ingram, and Allen can handle defending the perimeter, Matt's D is no longer a necessity in the starting lineup. That's certainly not a given, but I think it's possible. We saw tonight that the coaching staff is perfectly comfortable letting Ingram use his length to bother opposing guards and Grayson is big enough to defend most college 3's. That would leave Thornton only needing to guard whichever perimeter guy Duke doesn't feel the need to use Brandon's length on.

K has called Matt the unquestioned leader on the team. If he started TT all those games because of that, Matt Jones certainly will.

Troublemaker
11-17-2015, 10:51 PM
Another bit of perspective. Imagine if Grayson could go back in time a few hours and tell his younger self, "Dude, seriously, you HAVE to believe me. You will NOT be able to finish at the basket against Kentucky's big men. Don't even try." I mean, he wasted 4 or 5 possessions of Duke's figuring that out, and his misses or blocked shots at the rim led to easy baskets for Kentucky on runouts. It's quite possible with just that one piece of knowledge available to Grayson, Duke could've played Kentucky to within 1 or 2 possessions instead of losing comfortably by 11 points.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 10:51 PM
I don't think that's necessarily true. Matt Jones is a pretty prototypical 3-and-D player right now. If Thornton, Ingram, and Allen can handle defending the perimeter, Matt's D is no longer a necessity in the starting lineup. That's certainly not a given, but I think it's possible. We saw tonight that the coaching staff is perfectly comfortable letting Ingram use his length to bother opposing guards and Grayson is big enough to defend most college 3's. That would leave Thornton only needing to guard whichever perimeter guy Duke doesn't feel the need to use Brandon's length on.

We lost by double digits. I would be surprised if there was not a lineup shakeup.

I think Derryck gets the nod. Of all of the starters, Grayson had the worst night. He sits. Ingram had a bad night, but Grayson's was worse. Included in the equation is Grayson's body language, which will he will most likely get shown on tape.

Thornton, Jones, Ingram, Jefferson, and Plumlee are your starters for Friday.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 10:53 PM
Not mutually exclusive.

In the long run, I think our starting line-up I think it will be DT, Gray, MJ, Ingram, and (insert Amile or Marshall here).

I don't think DT has locked down that spot by any means (even though I think he should), but Friday, would not be shocked to see DT, Matt, Ingram, Marshall, Amile.

Not gonna kill Grayson's confidence with a little bench action right now, see him come in guns a blazin, but I think we are a better team, in the long run though, starter.

Ah, I did not understand there was a long term and a short term component.

Looks like we are in agreement about predicted starters for the next game too.

devildeac
11-17-2015, 10:54 PM
Wait, what? I'm confused.

You are saying that Thornton has earned either Amile or Marshall's spot, but that Grayson is coming off the bench? So one of either Amile or Marshall, plus Grayson will be coming off of the bench on Friday?

K's got it figured out so don't fret. We're going to start 4 guys Friday night and at the first TV timeout, we'll sub 2 for 1 and really freak out the VCU coach and players :rolleyes:;) .

JMarley50
11-17-2015, 10:54 PM
Grayson Allen = Ronda Rousey. Hope he gets off the mat.

I fail to see the comparison other than a bad outing. He's not arrogant and never claimed he could beat Mayweather... He had a bad game in his first real game with a target on his back. He'll be fine.

DukeDevil
11-17-2015, 10:57 PM
For what it's worth, Shelden Williams was just on the kiss cam.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-17-2015, 10:58 PM
All the pieces are there for an elite team come March. We have more distance to travel this year than last year, which really shouldn't be any surprise. Hard not to be excited about the individual elements that are there; as ever, savor the time to watch K mold athletes and young men of this caliber.

Yes. I guarantee that K is less concerned about a November loss than most posters here are.

We have young players who hopefully learned a lot tonight. We got humbled in some good ways that might benefit our squad in a few months.

gurufrisbee
11-17-2015, 10:59 PM
Thornton wasn't that good tonight. He hasn't earned any starting position at all.

If and when he ever does, it will be Matt who sits. Unless Ingram suddenly gains thirty pounds and learns how to be a rebounding force.

rsvman
11-17-2015, 10:59 PM
I don't know, I guess I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.
in the first half, they get that lucky last-second of the shot clock banking three and two layups that we just let them have for no reason. And we have several shots that go halfway down and then bounce out; it happens. one fewer defensive lapse or one better bounce or less luck on their part and the game is probably tied.
we also missed a ton of free throws. even reliable guys missed free throws.
it's an off night, and Kentucky is good.
I don't see the sky falling just yet.

CameronBlue
11-17-2015, 11:00 PM
:mad:

Ingram is not coming off the bench...unless you want to quickly destroy his confidence.

I don't buy that a player's confidence will be shattered by being benched if the player is simply not playing hard enough. What ails Ingram is not related to ability, performing under pressure or mechanics, but rather effort. Is a coach is messing with a player's head if he says "until you start playing with more intensity, you're coming off the bench"? What good can be gained by coddling such a fragile psyche?

As a whole Duke needed more intensity this evening. Credit part of that to Kentucky's very physical ball pressure on the perimeter, which really put Duke off its game. Many obscenities were hard echoing through CB's neighborhood because the refs were not calling it closer, while at the same time UK's ball pressure defense reminded the obscenity whisperer of Duke's over many, many seasons.

mo.st.dukie
11-17-2015, 11:03 PM
Thornton wasn't that good tonight.


He was solid, he made some mistakes but also made some good plays. But that's not really the point, the main thing is that we need a point guard, we need better ball handling. Grayson and Matt are great but neither are point guards, they both need to be out on the wing looking for shooting/scoring opportunities not trying to run the team or distribute the basketball. Neither of those guys can play multiple roles the way Scheyer/Smith or Tyus/Quinn could. Thornton has the ability to be a good point guard, we are going to have to live with his turnovers and shaky shot selection and hope that he continues to get better as the season goes along because we will desperately need his point guard abilities if we want to be a really good team.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 11:04 PM
Yes. I guarantee that K is less concerned about a November loss than most posters here are.

We have young players who hopefully learned a lot tonight. We got humbled in some good ways that might benefit our squad in a few months.

Have you read the whole thread though?

I am not gonna reread, but I don't recall anyone expressing much concern.

The general vibe after this one, to me, seems to be that we are playing with house money. We are sitting on a Natty and we have a ridiculous group coming in next year that will most likely assemble into a dangerous title contender.

I feel like most around here are taking a very patient wait and see approach with this year's team, one with a lot of untapped potential and talent that is sort of sandwiched in between two world beaters (Duke 2015, Duke 2017).

Ballboy1998
11-17-2015, 11:05 PM
I honestly wasn't too discouraged by tonight's performance. Grayson is a bit of a one dimensional player and has a tendency to force the issue, which is both his greatest strength and greatest weakness. Tonight, it was pretty much all weakness. He has shown a few flashes this season at being better about keeping his vision and dishing on drives. Hopefully he will be able to learn from this game moving forward and develop some of those complimentary aspects of his game.

The freshman all still have a ways to go, but that is to be expected. The good news is that our upperclassmen, who we have to expect are nearer their respective ceilings for the season, all looked as good as we need them to be. Great effort by Marshall and a great job playing within himself, though he had some slow rotations. Amile had yet another yeoman-like performance. I really would like to see us run more offensive sets through him, as he is comfortable and slinky with the ball in his hands, especially at the elbow. Matt looked good, if not great. I wish he had forced the issue a bit more on offense, as I think he has developed a decent floater and midrange game that would have worked well against the UK shot blockers.

Similar to others on the board, I was heartened by what I saw from Thornton. He made some very freshman mistakes, but he also made some very good things happen and looked like he belonged out there, against what may turn out to be the best backcourt in the country this year. I think he will be a good college PG before the season is over.

While Ingram had a pretty flat performance, I think some here are a bit too down on him. I think his foul trouble took him out of the game, as it has a tendency to do with young players. He got called for three offensive fouls, and I think that both dampened his aggressiveness and kept him from getting into a rhythm. He has elite length, a unique skill set, and good basketball instincts. He is going to be a very good player sooner rather than later.

Not really enough from Kennard or Jeter to comment on. I thought they each had some freshman mistakes but also showed some flashes.

There is a lot of basketball yet to be played, and I think this team will look a lot different by March. Nonetheless, as fans we have to accept that Tyus, Jah, and Justise are not walking through that door, and it would be unreasonable of us to expect the current crop of freshman to match last year's performance.

Go Duke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-17-2015, 11:09 PM
Have you read the whole thread though?

I am not gonna reread, but I don't recall anyone expressing much concern.

The general vibe after this one, to me, seems to be that we are playing with house money. We are sitting on a Natty and we have a ridiculous group coming in next year that will most likely assemble into a dangerous title contender.

I feel like most around here are taking a very patient wait and see approach with this year's team, one with a lot of untapped potential and talent that is sort of sandwiched in between two world beaters (Duke 2015, Duke 2017).

I agree we aren't freaking out. But guessing K is less so. Even in his pregame, K suggested that he was going to let the young guys play and see where things land.

The most fired up I saw coach was at the refs midway through the second half over a non-call. Didn't seem upset with the team.

sagegrouse
11-17-2015, 11:12 PM
I don't think that's necessarily true. Matt Jones is a pretty prototypical 3-and-D player right now. If Thornton, Ingram, and Allen can handle defending the perimeter, Matt's D is no longer a necessity in the starting lineup. That's certainly not a given, but I think it's possible. We saw tonight that the coaching staff is perfectly comfortable letting Ingram use his length to bother opposing guards and Grayson is big enough to defend most college 3's. That would leave Thornton only needing to guard whichever perimeter guy Duke doesn't feel the need to use Brandon's length on.

I believe Matt will be in the starting lineup, come hell or high water, as long as he plays as well as he is doing so far this year. He and Amile are the "solid rocks" around which this team will be built. I will be happy to welcome Marshall to the rock collection if he plays as well as he did tonight.

Derryck can come off the bench at the 16-17 minute mark and still play 30 MPG (he played 29 tonight). No need to put Grayson or Brandon on the bench. Luke is also in the mix, and he is not afraid to shoot. I suppose it will be the "hot hand" approach, although if we play teams with guards even close to Kentucky's Derryck has to play regardless of shooting.

Kindly,
Sage

'I have said there is something really interesting about an 18 YO who shows up looking 30. Boozer was like that, and so was Matt Jones. Very hard-nosed players, I would say'

'I'd offer a general rule, but Luke looks to be at least 30, if not 35 He will be a really good player but isn't a tough guy like the others'

'BTW, Boozer was only 17 when he arrived on campus'

Edouble
11-17-2015, 11:15 PM
'I'd offer a general rule, but Luke looks to be at least 30, if not 35 He will be a really good player but isn't a tough guy like the others'

Yes, most unfortunate Duke basketball hairline since Ferry. Somewhere Shane is smiling.

SCMatt33
11-17-2015, 11:20 PM
I believe Matt will be in the starting lineup, come hell or high water, as long as he plays as well as he is doing so far this year. He and Amile are the "solid rocks" around which this team will be built. I will be happy to welcome Marshall to the rock collection if he plays as well as he did tonight.

Derryck can come off the bench at the 16-17 minute mark and still play 30 MPG (he played 29 tonight). No need to put Grayson or Brandon on the bench. Luke is also in the mix, and he is not afraid to shoot. I suppose it will be the "hot hand" approach, although if we play teams with guards even close to Kentucky's Derryck has to play regardless of shooting.

Kindly,
Sage

'I have said there is something really interesting about an 18 YO who shows up looking 30. Boozer was like that, and so was Matt Jones. Very hard-nosed players, I would say'

'I'd offer a general rule, but Luke looks to be at least 30, if not 35 He will be a really good player but isn't a tough guy like the others'

'BTW, Boozer was only 17 when he arrived on campus'

The only thing I'd counter that with is that the coaches are known for putting their best five on the floor. Depending on how things shake out, that might not be Matt. The best five certainly includes Matt right now, and I personally think that Matt is likely to spend the year as a starter, but I was merely positing the possibility that he might not in response to a very definitive comment that if Derryck breaks into the starting lineup long term, it could only be at the expense of Marshall or Amile, and I didn't believe that to be so. I think there is a chance within the realm of reasonable possibility that it is Matt's spot he could take based on my reasoning from earlier.

uh_no
11-17-2015, 11:24 PM
really wrong.

oof. our offense was U-G-L-Y to watch....lots of standing around, and purposeless dribbling. lots of bad shots. How many turnovers, blocks, and rebounds off bad misses did they turn into easy points? at least enough to cover the difference in the game.

we got down the floor and were lost! how many points did WE get because of offense rebounds on missed shots? the fact we got the points is great, but the shots that lead to the boards were not.

we've got a lot of learning to do as a team.

Oof.

regroup.

I think these will both be good teams come march.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 11:29 PM
The only thing I'd counter that with is that the coaches are known for putting their best five on the floor. Depending on how things shake out, that might not be Matt. The best five certainly includes Matt right now, and I personally think that Matt is likely to spend the year as a starter, but I was merely positing the possibility that he might not in response to a very definitive comment that if Derryck breaks into the starting lineup long term, it could only be at the expense of Marshall or Amile, and I didn't believe that to be so. I think there is a chance within the realm of reasonable possibility that it is Matt's spot he could take based on my reasoning from earlier.

Yeah, Matt is a nice piece, but I don't see him as being an essential starter. I know Coach K loves him, but he probably has the lowest ceiling among himself, Grayson, Derryck, and Ingram. Possibly Luke too.

The team seems like it needs what Derryck can offer. I thought Amile (16 and 15) and Marshall (career best game) played a notch above Matt tonight too.

COYS
11-17-2015, 11:32 PM
I thought we lost this game on the offensive end. They had three fast breaks that started off of Grayson drives into no-mans land that were rejected and started the break. We threw the ball away two or three times from near the top of the key and we had that lazy inbounds pass that resulted in a bucket going the other way. This was in addition to missed free throws and a few too many long twos. Our set defense was actually pretty good against UK. Sure we gave up a few open shots at the rim, but we forced a lot of bad shots and blocked a lot of others, too. This, despite the fact that neither Grayson nor Brandon showed much on the defensive end (although Grayson did have two impressive boards among UK's trees).

So I'm not too worried after this game. As has been mentioned, our three vets played really well. Everyone else had probably their collective worst games in their basketball career, with the exception of Derryck who looked solid or even impressive at times despite some bouts of bad play, too.

Our offense functioned much better when Grayson and Brandon caught the ball on the move. But we had trouble running out motion offense because Matt and Grayson weren't often able to initiate it. Hopefully Derryck will help as he matures. Also, Grayson just flat out had a bad game. Finally, I think both Brandon and the staff will figure out better ways to get him the ball on the move. He's flashed some nice court vision and decision making this season, including tonight on that nice dump off to Amile. But between his foul trouble, the size of UK's defenders, and his off night shooting from range, he just never seemed comfortable. Coach K is underrated as an offensive coach. I actually think he's the best in the land (we've been over this before but Duke is almost always a top 10 offensive team and frequently a top 5 team. This run includes Duke teams that played fast and slow, teams that were undersized and teams that were huge, teams that scored in the post and teams that scored from the wings etc etc.). The staff will figure things out.

Going into the VCU game I hope to see Grayson make better decisions when driving into traffic, Brandon get the ball in more creative ways, and Derryck build on the positives of this game while improving on his decision-making. All of those things will hopefully help us cut down on turnovers and take better shots. If we had done a little of each of those things tonight, we might not have won but it would have been down to the wire.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 11:37 PM
Going into the VCU game I hope to see Grayson make better decisions when driving into traffic, Brandon get the ball in more creative ways, and Derryck build on the positives of this game while improving on his decision-making. All of those things will hopefully help us cut down on turnovers and take better shots. If we had done a little of each of those things tonight, we might not have won but it would have been down to the wire.

Agree. I was going to post something to this effect too, although I did suggest earlier in the thread that Brandon could maybe get some looks in the post.

Unlike our most recent one-and-dones, most notably Jabari, Austin, Jah, and Winslow to some degree, Brandon does not seem to have a cache of NBA-ready one-on-one moves. He seems to need a little more setup than just a clear out.

uh_no
11-17-2015, 11:38 PM
Does anyone have the UK points in transition/fast break?

My thought is the half court defense wasn't actually terrible, but it's a 111ppp overall, and was wondering what the number for just half court would be....

JPtheGame
11-17-2015, 11:40 PM
Hopefully this puts an end to the Grayson leaving early talk. The length bothered him and that's why I think he will be an excellent 4yr player for Duke But would struggle at the next level. For now, he will be as effective as the referees allow. If they blow the whistles early, he goes for 20. If they don't, you have tonight's performance. It would be nice if he looked to pass off of his drives. If you're crashing into 2-3 defenders, someone has to be open.

eddiehaskell
11-17-2015, 11:43 PM
Perhaps we're all jumping the gun a little. Maybe we don't need any lineup changes 1 tough game into the season.

- Allen was "the man" for two games - perhaps it's worth seeing if he just had an off night.

- 3 games into the season, Matt is averaging 15 ppg - again, let's see if it continues.

- Without Ingram starting and being one of the top 10 players in the ACC, the team could be in trouble offensively all season.

As bad as this game was, if Ingram or Allen go for 15 pts on 40%+ shooting - the #2 team would've been in for a fight.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 11:43 PM
Hopefully this puts an end to the Grayson leaving early talk. The length bothered him and that's why I think he will be an excellent 4yr player for Duke But would struggle at the next level. For now, he will be as effective as the referees allow. If they blow the whistles early, he goes for 20. If they don't, you have tonight's performance. It would be nice if he looked to pass off of his drives. If you're crashing into 2-3 defenders, someone has to be open.

Did you see the start of Elton's sophomore season?

Coballs
11-17-2015, 11:51 PM
Might be a good time for the team to see this again and really pay close attention this time...particularly from 4:45 on:
http://youtu.be/arATPsS-Fz0

JMarley50
11-17-2015, 11:52 PM
Yeah, Matt is a nice piece, but I don't see him as being an essential starter. I know Coach K loves him, but he probably has the lowest ceiling among himself, Grayson, Derryck, and Ingram. Possibly Luke too.

The team seems like it needs what Derryck can offer. I thought Amile (16 and 15) and Marshall (career best game) played a notch above Matt tonight too.

We are talking about the same Matt that started down the stretch last year and in the national championship game right? Also, when you speak of ceiling, do you mean offensive ceiling? Because I don't see anyone topping him in defense or leadership. We know what he is going to bring night in and night out. We cant say that for the freshmen and Grayson thus far. While he may not be the best scorer out of the guys you named, I would argue that his presence is more meaningful when it comes to winning games.

Furniture
11-17-2015, 11:55 PM
Another bit of perspective. Imagine if Grayson could go back in time a few hours and tell his younger self, "Dude, seriously, you HAVE to believe me. You will NOT be able to finish at the basket against Kentucky's big men. Don't even try." I mean, he wasted 4 or 5 possessions of Duke's figuring that out, and his misses or blocked shots at the rim led to easy baskets for Kentucky on runouts. It's quite possible with just that one piece of knowledge available to Grayson, Duke could've played Kentucky to within 1 or 2 possessions instead of losing comfortably by 11 points.

I agree with this. What was a little frustrating to me was why K didn't tell him enough is enough after two or three drives? I believe he has done this in the past to other players. In the chat room there was a lot of talk about taking him out but K stuck with him.

DevilWearsPrada
11-18-2015, 12:07 AM
Might be a good time for the team to see this again and really pay close attention this time...particularly from 4:45 on:
http://youtu.be/arATPsS-Fz0

Absolutely, an awesome motivation talk from JJ Redick to the Duke team!!!!

Edouble
11-18-2015, 12:12 AM
We are talking about the same Matt that started down the stretch last year and in the national championship game right? Also, when you speak of ceiling, do you mean offensive ceiling? Because I don't see anyone topping him in defense or leadership. We know what he is going to bring night in and night out. We cant say that for the freshmen and Grayson thus far. While he may not be the best scorer out of the guys you named, I would argue that his presence is more meaningful when it comes to winning games.

Totally different team. Totally different role.

Yes, I think he is the perfect fit for a team that needs a strong wing defender as the last piece. I was bullish on him last February when he moved into the starting lineup. It allowed Winslow, and the team, to flourish.

Matt did not look good guarding Ulis, or moving the ball on offense. He also took some ill advised shots. I am not sure he should be asked to do more than the 3-and-D, as another poster suggested. At this point, I don't know if the team is talented enough in the other positions for that player to be a starter.

Steven43
11-18-2015, 12:12 AM
All the pieces are there for an elite team come March. We have more distance to travel this year than last year, which really shouldn't be any surprise. Hard not to be excited about the individual elements that are there; as ever, savor the time to watch K mold athletes and young men of this caliber.

Yes, the pieces to get to an elite level later in the year are absolutely present. I think Thornton has the potential to be a more dynamic player overall than Tyus, though he clearly is far less polished. Please allow him the opportunity to play and take his lumps. That is the best way to get him better faster. Without that our season is doomed to probably two losses to UNC combined with a loss in the Round of 32 or at best 16.

Jefferson has developed into a reliable and valuable post presence on both ends. He is exceeding my expectations. Same goes for Plumlee, though he should NEVER again attempt to dribble more than a few times before passing to a better ballhandler (which would be anybody else on the court with DUKE on their jersey). Matt Jones is a bigger and better version of Tyler Thornton, though a PG he is not and never will be. That experiment needs to end sooner rather than later. Ditto Grayson. If the guy cannot really dribble to his left effectively, how in the world can he be expected to play even a halfway decent facsimile of a PG? No, the ONLY PG on this team is Derryck Thornton, with Luke Kennard as the best available backup.

As for Mr. Kennard, he has the tools to be an excellent college player, but he needs considerably more experience at this level. I have a feeling his high school competition was somewhere on the level of that faced by Semi 'Parade Magazine National Player of the Year' Ojeleye. And we all saw how that turned out. Kennard is significantly better skilled than Semi, but he needs lots of nurturing. He will get there.

Brandon will be fine. At risk of sounding like a broken record he just needs time and experience. All the skills are there for a high-level, dynamic inside-outside offensive game as well as a really disruptive defender. By the midpoint of the season he is going to be giving opposing teams absolute fits. Just wait.

Yes, it is a bit offputting to see Kentucky play such effective on-the-ball defense. I think only Thornton has the ability to consistently break their press. If these teams meet again he is going to be Duke's most essential player. It's disconcerting to think Kentucky is once again one of the favorites to win it all, but there you have it. A lot can happen between now and then, though. Anyway, I'm really excited for the VCU game.

Kedsy
11-18-2015, 12:28 AM
Just one data point, but in our first tough game, we played a 7-man rotation with Luke as 7th man, playing only 14 minutes. Will be interesting to see how much that changes moving forward.


Jeter...Was it him that couldn't inbound the ball one time and just threw it to UK?

No, it wasn't. It was Brandon. And Chase only played four minutes, not sure how you can make such judgments based on that.


When Kentucky went hard after rebounds, Jefferson had no chance. It looked like when he used to have to play center.

Are you joking? Amile dominated the boards on both ends. He was by far the leading rebounder in the game, for either team.


Agree with number two. I think Matt's best role is as a versatile stopper off the bench, a la (late) senior year Nate James.

This may ultimately turn out to be true, but so far, Matt has certainly earned his starting role. Tonight he was Duke's leading scorer (tied with Amile) and best outside shooter, which for a guy who gets his minutes for defense is pretty impressive.


Did you see the start of Elton's sophomore season?

In Elton Brand's first three games of his sophomore season, he averaged 16 and 11, with 2.3 blocks while shooting 82% from the field. His first (and only) single-digit scoring game of the season came on January 13 at Wake Forest. So I don't think I understand your point here.


Without that our season is doomed to probably two losses to UNC combined with a loss in the Round of 32 or at best 16.

Who had November 17 in the pool?

Neals384
11-18-2015, 12:29 AM
Echo most of the above comments - my glass is half full. Gonna take a while for this team to gel but the potential is there. If there is a silver lining, it's that I didn't see anyone who looked like a one-and-done player in white jerseys tonight. Or two-and-done.

eddiehaskell
11-18-2015, 12:53 AM
No, it wasn't. It was Brandon. And Chase only played four minutes, not sure how you can make such judgments based on that.
Pretty sure when I did see him he missed two interior passes he could've got to. Regardless, he's a top 10 prospect - why doesn't he play? He's went for 10 pts/9 reb in 3 games...was he seen as a project with a high ceiling during recruiting?

duke96
11-18-2015, 12:54 AM
Got home too late and googled Duke Kentucky highlight videos but all that pops up is these Duke Wisconsin highlight videos. Turns out they made me a lot happier than I suspect tonight's highlights would have!!

Edouble
11-18-2015, 01:01 AM
In Elton Brand's first three games of his sophomore season, he averaged 16 and 11, with 2.3 blocks while shooting 82% from the field. His first (and only) single-digit scoring game of the season came on January 13 at Wake Forest. So I don't think I understand your point here.

Ah, just that Elton was a dominant post presence and a NPOY, but Coach K still saw it fit to bench him, for back to back mid-December games, until he started playing up to his potential.

This in response to a poster suggesting that Grayson could not enter this year's NBA Draft because of this one game.

The corollary is just that a player can have a bad game or not be playing well and still go to the draft.

JMarley50
11-18-2015, 01:05 AM
Pretty sure when I did see him he missed two interior passes he could've got to. Regardless, he's a top 10 prospect - why doesn't he play? He's went for 10 pts/9 reb in 3 games...was he seen as a project with a high ceiling during recruiting?

Would you have played him over a senior Marshall Plumlee who had 12 pts, 10 reb, 6 blks and only 2 fouls in 36 minutes? Or a senior Amile Jefferson who had 16 pts, 15 reb and 2 fouls in 35 minutes?

kAzE
11-18-2015, 01:06 AM
Oof . . . that game was a punch to the gut. Murray is a flat-out monster, he would be a starting point guard for several NBA teams right now. The way he took us apart was brutal and surgical. He's a very creative finisher at the rim, and the game just looks like it's going much slower for him than everyone else. That split of a double team into the lob to Poythress was unbelievable. There's not 20 other players in the world who can make that play as effortlessly as he made it look.

Our older guys looked great, but the 3 of them are all role players. They did everything they could tonight, but our stars were all off. All of our young guys looked like deer in front of headlights tonight. Ingram had like 4 turnovers on inbound passes alone . . . the ball handling from all the freshmen was sloppy all night long.

On the bright side, Marshall looks like he's ready to be a big contributor defensively, which is great. It seems as though we can also count on him to get 4-8 points just from his offensive rebounding every game now. If he can consistently play 80% this well defensively, I love our chances in the ACC.

We know Allen, Ingram, and Kennard can score . . . all three simultaneously had really bad games, which shouldn't happen very often (if ever again), so nobody should be really that upset over this loss. We played awful vs. a great team who played really well. I think if we meet Kentucky again down the road, we would certainly put up a better fight. They can certainly get better (especially Skal), but I think we have even more room for improvement. Allen needs to add some variety to his offensive game. Ingram needs to learn how to be aggressive offensively without committing charging fouls, Kennard just needs to start hitting a few shots to get his confidence going (I'm predicting a 20 point game for him in the next 2 or 3 contests), and Thornton needs to learn how to take over the offense, because we clearly need his ball handling against elite defensive teams.

Steven43
11-18-2015, 01:08 AM
Who had November 17 in the pool?

I did, thanks.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 01:20 AM
The board seems divided on Derryck's performance in the game tonight. Thought I would share these quotes from Coach K's press conference:

"I thought Derryck did a really good job for us and kept us in the game."

"(Derryck) showed fight tonight."

JMarley50
11-18-2015, 01:26 AM
Totally different team. Totally different role.

Yes, I think he is the perfect fit for a team that needs a strong wing defender as the last piece. I was bullish on him last February when he moved into the starting lineup. It allowed Winslow, and the team, to flourish.

Matt did not look good guarding Ulis, or moving the ball on offense. He also took some ill advised shots. I am not sure he should be asked to do more than the 3-and-D, as another poster suggested. At this point, I don't know if the team is talented enough in the other positions for that player to be a starter.

While it may be a different team, I would argue that Matt's role isn't really all that different. I think that people severely underestimate the leadership factor. His leadership and calming influence is going to be much more valuable to this team compared to last year's. Also lets not forget that he had 19 in the first half against Bryant, and tied Amile as our leading scorer tonight. Not too bad for an offensive liability if you ask me. I didn't notice too many "ill advised" shots from him tonight. The offense was stagnant and perimeter guys weren't moving to get open. Some of his shots may not have been ideal, but given the circumstances, I would say they weren't bad. He looked like a leader trying to make something happen IMO. If you view Matt as a player who should just stand on the 3 point line and only shoot if he is wide open, I could see the "ill advised" argument. Otherwise, I would say it is unfounded.

As far as Ulis is concerned, he is one of the shiftiest and quickest guards in the country. He is going to make a lot of great defenders look bad off the bounce this year. Also, don't forget, Matt is battling a groin injury. I read on twitter that he was spotted hobbling around after the game FWIW.

kAzE
11-18-2015, 01:28 AM
The board seems divided on Derryck's performance in the game tonight. Thought I would share these quotes from Coach K's press conference:

"I thought Derryck did a really good job for us and kept us in the game."

"(Derryck) showed fight tonight."

I thought his defense on Ulis was easily the best of anyone who tried to guard him tonight, so he did a decent job there. I also really liked his little step back jumper off the dribble, that was nice. The 3 assists against 4 turnovers needs to get better.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 01:39 AM
I thought his defense on Ulis was easily the best of anyone who tried to guard him tonight, so he did a decent job there. I also really liked his little step back jumper off the dribble, that was nice. The 3 assists against 4 turnovers needs to get better.

I am fully in the pro-Derryck camp, as I was in the pro-Quinn camp for four years. His defense on Ulis is part of why I'm in after tonight.

I recall Jason Williams basically chucking the ball out of bounds without a Duke player within five feet several times during his freshman year.

Freshmen PGs not named Tyus or Kyrie are gonna have growing pains. I think 4 TOs against a Top 5 team in your third game is still promising. I'm bullish on the kid.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 01:43 AM
While it may be a different team, I would argue that Matt's role isn't really all that different. I think that people severely underestimate the leadership factor. His leadership and calming influence is going to be much more valuable to this team compared to last year's. Also lets not forget that he had 19 in the first half against Bryant, and tied Amile as our leading scorer tonight. Not too bad for an offensive liability if you ask me. I didn't notice too many "ill advised" shots from him tonight. The offense was stagnant and perimeter guys weren't moving to get open. Some of his shots may not have been ideal, but given the circumstances, I would say they weren't bad. He looked like a leader trying to make something happen IMO. If you view Matt as a player who should just stand on the 3 point line and only shoot if he is wide open, I could see the "ill advised" argument. Otherwise, I would say it is unfounded.

As far as Ulis is concerned, he is one of the shiftiest and quickest guards in the country. He is going to make a lot of great defenders look bad off the bounce this year. Also, don't forget, Matt is battling a groin injury. I read on twitter that he was spotted hobbling around after the game FWIW.

With all due respect, did that factor in tonight? As many have noted, the freshmen seemed to have the deer in headlights look. I am not sure that Matt did anything to remedy that the way that Shane or Quinn might have been able to do.

I think that Matt's role shouldn't be that different than last year. I think that is the role that he is best suited to. As of now, he is being asked to do more. As I suggested up thread, I would love to see him as a wing stopper off of the bench.

eddiehaskell
11-18-2015, 01:59 AM
Would you have played him over a senior Marshall Plumlee who had 12 pts, 10 reb, 6 blks and only 2 fouls in 36 minutes? Or a senior Amile Jefferson who had 16 pts, 15 reb and 2 fouls in 35 minutes?No, but he hasn't exactly played big minutes in all 3 games. Over 10 minutes into the first half, Amile had 2 pts/2 reb - typically, those numbers wouldn't keep a stud recruit on the bench. In the ~1 minute I saw Chase play in the first half, he had 2 fouls and a turnover. I'm just wondering how much of a factor he's projected to be this year? As a top 10 recruit, I was thinking potential starter or at least a decent stat line in ~20 mpg. I know it's only 3 games into the season, but I haven't seen anything yet.

JMarley50
11-18-2015, 02:12 AM
With all due respect, did that factor in tonight? As many have noted, the freshmen seemed to have the deer in headlights look. I am not sure that Matt did anything to remedy that the way that Shane or Quinn might have been able to do.

I think that Matt's role shouldn't be that different than last year. I think that is the role that he is best suited to. As of now, he is being asked to do more. As I suggested up thread, I would love to see him as a wing stopper off of the bench.

With the same respect, can you say it didn't? There were 4 or 5 times in the second half where it looked like they were about to completely fold. But they pulled it together as best they could. I feel like even though you say this is a "totally different team", you are comparing this team to that last year's team. There is no comparison. If K found Matt's LEADERSHIP (his words) valuable enough to start him down the stretch last year, with mature and NBA ready freshmen, I don't see how it wouldn't be even more valuable this year with "typical" freshmen by comparison. But that is just my opinion. The beauty of the situation is we'll get to watch it all unfold the way the GOAT thinks it should.

I personally wouldn't put Quinn and Shane in the same sentence when it comes to leadership. I have a soft spot for Quinn as well, but he didn't really show much leadership ability until last season. And if you are expecting Matt to impact a game like Shane, you are are going to be very let down.

JPtheGame
11-18-2015, 02:12 AM
Ah, just that Elton was a dominant post presence and a NPOY, but Coach K still saw it fit to bench him, for back to back mid-December games, until he started playing up to his potential.

This in response to a poster suggesting that Grayson could not enter this year's NBA Draft because of this one game.

The corollary is just that a player can have a bad game or not be playing well and still go to the draft.

Grayson should stay away from the draft bc he's 6'4 with short arms and no natural position at the next level. This game just made his shortcomings obvious. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for Grayson to stick around and I think he will do great things at duke. As a comparative, I think Ingram should go as soon as his body develops to the point where 80 plus games is possible. He was terrible tonight so it's not about one game sample sizes. It's about what works here versus there.

FireOgilvie
11-18-2015, 02:16 AM
Well, the freshmen looked like freshmen. Thornton and Ingram are still better athletes than basketball players at this point, although I was happy to see Thornton make a couple solid plays on offense. He's quick and has good ball-handling, but his playmaking, off-the-ball defense and transition defense all need significant work. I didn't think the turnovers were that big of a deal; we need to get his assist:turnover ratio >1, however.

Luke was +2 in 14 min tonight but is still in the worst shooting slump of his life. I think the biggest issue is that he's being extremely passive with the ball. He's used to having the ball in his hands more, and when he does get it he's playing like he's scared to make a mistake. He still has 0 turnovers on the year and has only taken 2 free throws, although he made one or two good drives to the basket tonight. His best game was the exhibition game he started in place of Matt (where he had a chance to handle to ball for a large portion of the game).

Fantastic games from Amile and Plumlee. They both played as hard as they could out there.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 02:21 AM
With the same respect, can you say it didn't? There were 4 or 5 times in the second half where it looked like they were about to completely fold. But they pulled it together as best they could. I feel like even though you say this is a "totally different team", you are comparing this team to that last year's team. There is no comparison. If K found Matt's LEADERSHIP (his words) valuable enough to start him down the stretch last year, with mature and NBA ready freshmen, I don't see how it wouldn't be even more valuable this year with "typical" freshmen by comparison. But that is just my opinion. The beauty of the situation is we'll get to watch it all unfold the way the GOAT thinks it should.

I personally wouldn't put Quinn and Shane in the same sentence when it comes to leadership. I have a soft spot for Quinn as well, but he didn't really show much leadership ability until last season. And if you are expecting Matt to impact a game like Shane, you are are going to be very let down.

Well, yes, I would say that it didn't. I've seen games when it seemed that guys like Shane and Quinn were able to calm/rally the troops a bit better. But I agree that we will get to watch it unfold!

Quinn and Shane were both pivotal leaders in their senior seasons, seasons that both ended in National Championships. I feel more than comfortable grouping them together.

Shane gets an extra year of "leadership props" for his junior year. I do not believe he was known as being a team leader as a freshman or sophomore, so I think it's close. For both players, I believe it was their senior season that cemented their places in the pantheon of great Duke basketball leaders.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 02:28 AM
Grayson should stay away from the draft bc he's 6'4 with short arms and no natural position at the next level. This game just made his shortcomings obvious. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for Grayson to stick around and I think he will do great things at duke. As a comparative, I think Ingram should go as soon as his body develops to the point where 80 plus games is possible. He was terrible tonight so it's not about one game sample sizes. It's about what works here versus there.

This was my whole point. I did not comment on whether or not Grayson should enter the draft, but that it is ridiculous that one game would decide that.

An early season game that exposes shortcomings will have little effect if he is able to address said shortcomings, namely that he never went left and that he was holding the ball out to the Kentucky bigs to see like he was in a third grade classroom during show and tell.

bedeviled
11-18-2015, 02:40 AM
A replay is currently available on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmawL0UU7c4)

JMarley50
11-18-2015, 02:51 AM
No, but he hasn't exactly played big minutes in all 3 games. Over 10 minutes into the first half, Amile had 2 pts/2 reb - typically, those numbers wouldn't keep a stud recruit on the bench. In the ~1 minute I saw Chase play in the first half, he had 2 fouls and a turnover. I'm just wondering how much of a factor he's projected to be this year? As a top 10 recruit, I was thinking potential starter or at least a decent stat line in ~20 mpg. I know it's only 3 games into the season, but I haven't seen anything yet.

I guess I just don't get hung up on the rankings. A #10 player one year can be twice as good as the #10 player the next year. With Chase, I saw him play twice in high school and honestly thought his teammate Zimmerman looked better both times. So I guess I kind of knew what we were getting. He will be very good, but he just needs a little time to strengthen his lower body. One of the passes he missed tonight was a result of that. He was really leaning on his defender hard to try and establish position. When the pass came he was on his heels and couldn't step to grab it.

The numbers we got out of our bigs tonight are what we should hope for the rest of the year IMO. If they can do that and stay out of foul trouble, we will be solid. Chase will probably contribute to those numbers at times, but I don't see him being the primary source unless something unexpected happens.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-18-2015, 04:29 AM
This was my whole point. I did not comment on whether or not Grayson should enter the draft, but that it is ridiculous that one game would decide that.

An early season game that exposes shortcomings will have little effect if he is able to address said shortcomings, namely that he never went left and that he was holding the ball out to the Kentucky bigs to see like he was in a third grade classroom during show and tell.

How about this... it is just as silly to suggests after last night on the basis of one game that Allen won't go pro after this season as it was to suggest on the basis on the Wisconsin game that he will go pro after this season.

We have another 30+ games to suss things out. I doubt Allen has many nights like tonight.

eddiehaskell
11-18-2015, 06:28 AM
A replay is currently available on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmawL0UU7c4)Thanks for the link. After watching the replay, I'm not down about this defeat.

Nearly SEVENTEEN minutes into the game it's 27-24 and we look BETTER; more aggressive (check out the defensive stand at 5:30 1st half), Amile's dunk (and nearly 3pt play that wasn't called a bucket), slashing to the rim, MP3 going crazy on both ends, etc. This is all despite Ingram doing nothing but pick up a couple fouls. Allen also did nothing. He was blocked 4 times and had 2 altered. After one of his blocked drives, UK had a good rebound off a miss and nearly 3pt play (and Grayson nearly turned it over AGAIN right after that).

During the last 3 or so minutes of the first half UK banks in a 3 combined with two half court alleys - this gets them pumped up and the crowd yelling.

AND TO END THE HALF - Greyson makes a horrible pass which leads to a Kentucky layup as the horn sounds. Now it's 37-31 and the momentum has definitely swung to UK.

Not to keep piling on Greyson for having one bad game, but the game is much closer if he doesn't play - dare I say, we go into the 2nd half with 1-2 pt lead...I figure his 9 misses/turnovers cost the team at least 7-8 points. Kentucky won by 11 so that's the team's shot at having a close game right there. Maybe there's something positive to take away from us "only" losing by 11 with Ingram and Allen playing horribly?

eddiehaskell
11-18-2015, 06:50 AM
Greyson = Grayson. I'm off my game also. :D

oldnavy
11-18-2015, 07:21 AM
This was about what I had expected.

Very young team on a very large stage against a very good team.

Lots of room to grow with our talent and lots of time to do it.

Anyone trying to write the ending of the story/season after last night is wasting their time.

Who has a better coach and coaching staff in the world than Duke? Rhetorical question.... no one!

With the talent we have and the GOAT leading the talent, we will be just fine come March.

In fact, I am actually not disappointed at all that we lost this game, in fact I really couldn't have cared less about the outcome.

Personally, I am really excited about watching the staff put the pieces together on this team and watching it blossom into something special.

Oh, and MP3... he looked terrific, and poised. I was actually surprised by how well he did. If he can provide that hustle and emotion for the whole year, he is a guy that this team can rally around and draw energy from. He isn't our best player by a long shot, but he may prove to be out most important player.

It's going to be a fun year to watch this team.... now if I can only control my "rage against the inconsistency of the officiating" I may be able to enjoy more games.... it's really a problem I have that needs much work, but my goodness they drive me crazy!! And it's not just the calls against Duke, they are pretty inconsistent both ways and really know how to disrupt what can be a beautiful game with nonsense ticky tacky foul calls...

Trying to eliminate or reduce the "physicality" of the game is silly.... it's a physical game, call the fouls that matter.... and let the players play for heavens sake!

Saratoga2
11-18-2015, 07:21 AM
Coach K did say that with so many young players on the team he had to keep things simple and build upon them with time. Clearly, the team didn't have a lot going on offense as yet with no backdoor cuts and little happening to get guys open. The same with transition defense. Too many turnovers with guys not normally bringing the ball up and forcing the plays. Our defensive rebounding needed to be shared with more guard involvement. Kentucky really too it to us as the game went on.

What we have is three experienced players out there in Plumlee, Jefferson and Jones and one somewhat experienced player in Allen. I believe we all know that Plumlee and Jones are probably not early round picks in the NBA, if at all while Jefferson has more chance to be picked up in the second round or later. It is too early to tell about Allen as he came down to earth in this game, but has real ability and may be a solid pick in the NBA with development. The point is that we were relying on good college players to lead the team.

Clearly Ingram, Thornton, Jeter and Kennard have talent but they need to learn how to be effective. It was disappointing that none of them were able to make much of an impact, but it was a good learning experience for them and their talent will ultimately show with work.


Ingram does have a great handle for a man of his size and length. Clearly he has to get stronger and the team needs to find ways to put him into better scoring positions. He got called for lowering his shoulder going to the basket and he can work on avoiding that.

Thornton does have an excellent handle and quickness and a couple of times showed that he can score when playing under control. He did try to force things too often which resulted in turnovers. His defense was good at times and is something to build on.

Jeter is not ready yet and does have to play more physically. He has the tools but needs to develop to be effective at the high Div I level.

Kennard must be a better shooter than he has shown to date. He should study how hard JJ worked to get open and try to emulate that. Time will tell on him.

I agree with those who thought Jefferson was our best player on the floor last night. He has gotten stronger this year and is a very good defender, rebounder and can score inside. Plumlee worked his tail off out there and provided his best game ever. He avoided fouling out while two of the Kentucky centers did foul out and another was close to it. Jones had a quiet but very good game. Again, it was about all we can expect of him against some very good competition.

Going forward we will definitely need to keep Amile, Marshall and Matt on the floor for substantial minutes. Like it or not, Derryck needs to get substantial PT as he is our only real PG and experience should get the rough spots out. Allen is still a force out there but has learned that he just can't go inside as easily against a long and athletic team like Kentucky. He appeared frustrated and even missed foul shots as the night became a total disaster for him. They listed him at 6'5" in the introductions but Kennard looks to be a couple of inches taller so if he is 6'3" that is about it.

Kennard and Jeter need to develop before seeing major minutes. Kennard has some chance of doing that quickly while I think Jeter will take more time.

Those mentioning a 12 loss season could be right but coach K has a way of bringing his teams along, especially on defense, so we may well be in for happy moments.

wavedukefan70s
11-18-2015, 07:58 AM
Plumlee did a lot more than I expected.our rebounding was good .need some work on various things.a lot of talent on the floor for us.k will figure a combination and have them ready by Christmas break.We never looked like we quit.no bad body language. That's a big plus.we will be fine .

rocketeli
11-18-2015, 08:14 AM
The box score didn't look as bad as the game, oddly. Count me in the camp that thinks we should appoint Thornton the king daddy point guard--he is the only guard we have that actually can play point as in make the passes etc., and if he's going to get "ready" that should do it. As many (including, ahem, moi) have posted this is a young team and not a team of superstars so they will get better. Ingram especially has a lot on his plate. He has to adjust to a new position as well as the college game. Jefferson and Plumlee are great veterans to have, but one issue the team will have to solve is how to have them in there without letting the other team play 5 on 3 on defense.

jv001
11-18-2015, 08:21 AM
An awful lot of throwing some of our guys under the bus after 3 games. The freshmen played like freshmen and our sophomore guard played like a sophomore guard that didn't get much PT until late in his freshman year. Then some fans even piled on MP III after he had his best game of his career. If he plays like this all year, we'll nickname him Zoubs II instead of MPIII. My takes from the game. 1) Matt Jones played a good game both offensively and defensively. 2) Marshall showed a toughness against a very big team. 3) Amile looks like he's going to have a very good senior year. 4) Grayson forced things way too many times and maybe would be a terrific 6th man. 5) Brandon did not catch up to the speed of the game. However his shot looked fine and he had two or three balls go in and out. 6) Kennard has not shot well and many had called him the 2nd coming of JJ. He does not have the speed or quickness to play PG in my opinion. He will be fine as a swing man. 7) Chase will be a good big for Duke but it will take time. Getting stronger will help him and Brandon. 8) Thornton looked pretty good as the PG. He will get better as the year goes on. He is our only true PG and we need him to get better fast. Next Play! GoDuke!

hsheffield
11-18-2015, 08:35 AM
Does anyone have the UK points in transition/fast break?

My thought is the half court defense wasn't actually terrible, but it's a 111ppp overall, and was wondering what the number for just half court would be...

my thoughts as well. it was painful to watch Ky "make us pay" on all those fast breaks.

-was wondering why our transition offense was so slow. seems as if Grayson could have slipped across court before Ky had set up their defense, he could have scored. perhaps K didn't have enough confidence in ball handling to let them run? or we're not as quick (or deep) as I was thinking?

-loved seeing Plumlee off the pick and roll:cool:

-Thornton getting into it? hopefully his frustration was atypical.

Troublemaker
11-18-2015, 08:44 AM
As many have noted, the freshmen seemed to have the deer in headlights look. I am not sure that Matt did anything to remedy that the way that Shane or Quinn might have been able to do.

Judging leadership from the sofa is always a difficult task, and judging leadership based on single-game outcomes ever more so. Quinn was a great leader but, using your methodology, he doesn't deserve to be grouped with Shane because of the Miami game last season. And I bet if I go through Shane's history, I will find a game that --from the sofa-- doesn't appear to exude great leadership, and therefore he can't be grouped with himself as a great leader. Never mind also that Quinn's freshmen that he led and Shane's freshmen that HE led were much better players than Matt's freshmen this season.

Putting aside sofa judgements of leadership, the reason we know Matt is a great leader is because Coach K says so. He's been effusive about Matt's leadership over and over again. Even last night, I heard an interview from him -- it may have been the ESPN pregame one -- where he called Matt the primary leader on the team with Amile and MP3 playing supporting roles. To be the primary leader on the team as a junior takes a special kind of leadership talent that Coach K, expert on leadership, will continue to mold.

Matt's going to start every game this season if healthy (knock on wood). If people are searching for a way for get Derryck into the starting lineup, look to Grayson.

sagegrouse
11-18-2015, 08:51 AM
Totally different team. Totally different role.

Yes, I think he is the perfect fit for a team that needs a strong wing defender as the last piece. I was bullish on him last February when he moved into the starting lineup. It allowed Winslow, and the team, to flourish.

Matt did not look good guarding Ulis, or moving the ball on offense. He also took some ill advised shots. I am not sure he should be asked to do more than the 3-and-D, as another poster suggested. At this point, I don't know if the team is talented enough in the other positions for that player to be a starter.

Edouble, this is fairly tame compared to the wonderment that Tyler Thornton was in the starting lineup for 25 games two years ago. TT played because of toughness and leadership and, BTW, the ability to make tough shots.

Matt Jones is bigger, stronger, almost as tough, a Grade A defender, a team captain, a pretty good 3-pt. shooter (38% in 2015). To me, he seems to be a far better defender than the other guards.

I believe you can make a good case for other guys in the starting lineup, but looking into the "Coach K Crystal Ball," I'm not so sure it will happen.

Next play,
Sage

sagegrouse
11-18-2015, 08:56 AM
A replay is currently available on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmawL0UU7c4)

Oh, joy!

MCFinARL
11-18-2015, 09:08 AM
Coach K did say that with so many young players on the team he had to keep things simple and build upon them with time. Clearly, the team didn't have a lot going on offense as yet with no backdoor cuts and little happening to get guys open. The same with transition defense. Too many turnovers with guys not normally bringing the ball up and forcing the plays. Our defensive rebounding needed to be shared with more guard involvement. Kentucky really too it to us as the game went on.

What we have is three experienced players out there in Plumlee, Jefferson and Jones and one somewhat experienced player in Allen. I believe we all know that Plumlee and Jones are probably not early round picks in the NBA, if at all while Jefferson has more chance to be picked up in the second round or later. It is too early to tell about Allen as he came down to earth in this game, but has real ability and may be a solid pick in the NBA with development. The point is that we were relying on good college players to lead the team.

Clearly Ingram, Thornton, Jeter and Kennard have talent but they need to learn how to be effective. It was disappointing that none of them were able to make much of an impact, but it was a good learning experience for them and their talent will ultimately show with work.


Ingram does have a great handle for a man of his size and length. Clearly he has to get stronger and the team needs to find ways to put him into better scoring positions. He got called for lowering his shoulder going to the basket and he can work on avoiding that.

Thornton does have an excellent handle and quickness and a couple of times showed that he can score when playing under control. He did try to force things too often which resulted in turnovers. His defense was good at times and is something to build on.

Jeter is not ready yet and does have to play more physically. He has the tools but needs to develop to be effective at the high Div I level.

Kennard must be a better shooter than he has shown to date. He should study how hard JJ worked to get open and try to emulate that. Time will tell on him.

I agree with those who thought Jefferson was our best player on the floor last night. He has gotten stronger this year and is a very good defender, rebounder and can score inside. Plumlee worked his tail off out there and provided his best game ever. He avoided fouling out while two of the Kentucky centers did foul out and another was close to it. Jones had a quiet but very good game. Again, it was about all we can expect of him against some very good competition.

Going forward we will definitely need to keep Amile, Marshall and Matt on the floor for substantial minutes. Like it or not, Derryck needs to get substantial PT as he is our only real PG and experience should get the rough spots out. Allen is still a force out there but has learned that he just can't go inside as easily against a long and athletic team like Kentucky. He appeared frustrated and even missed foul shots as the night became a total disaster for him. They listed him at 6'5" in the introductions but Kennard looks to be a couple of inches taller so if he is 6'3" that is about it.

Kennard and Jeter need to develop before seeing major minutes. Kennard has some chance of doing that quickly while I think Jeter will take more time.

Those mentioning a 12 loss season could be right but coach K has a way of bringing his teams along, especially on defense, so we may well be in for happy moments.

It wouldn't surprise me if Grayson's roster height is more than his actual height. But it's also possible that the apparent difference between Grayson and Luke comes from posture--Luke seems to hold his head high, while Grayson seems to tilt his head forward much of the time.


Does anyone have the UK points in transition/fast break?

My thought is the half court defense wasn't actually terrible, but it's a 111ppp overall, and was wondering what the number for just half court would be...

According to the WRAL game story (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke-kentucky-meet-in-early-season-top-5-battle/15115969/), Kentucky outscored duke 18-4 in transition; so there's your game margin and a little more right there. IIRC, 6-8 of those were on those painful blocks of Grayson Allen's shots in the first half.

So I agree the half-court defense wasn't so bad--although it came and went. Early on it looked like we simply weren't playing defense anywhere on the court, or at least were playing a defense that was easily solvable by Ky. But then they settled down and were better--there was that very long stretch of the first half when the score sat at 14-14, for example.

MChambers
11-18-2015, 09:08 AM
Just because he is a lengthy guy doesn't mean that others with length can't bother him.

I think I said that right..

At least you didn't go on at length.

CDu
11-18-2015, 09:12 AM
Those mentioning a 12 loss season could be right but coach K has a way of bringing his teams along, especially on defense, so we may well be in for happy moments.

I think 12 losses is probably out of the question given our remaining schedule. Georgetown/Wisconsin isn't looking like the type of test it might have looked a month ago. Utah is decent but lost two key players (All-American Delon Wright and backup C Dallin Bachynski - their only real size behind Poeltl). Indiana is good but small. There is maybe one more loss on the pre-conference schedule. I just don't see us losing 8 regular season conference games given the quality of the ACC this year. I could certainly see a 10-loss season though (12-6 in conference, losses in the ACC and NCAA tourneys, and another loss to either Indiana or Utah. But I just don't think there are enough teams in conference good enough to defend us the way UK defended us. UNC could beat us twice. UVa could beat us in Cameron. But aside from that, I just don't see it. I think 12-6 is about a worst-case scenario (barring catastrophic injuries of course) in conference.

superdave
11-18-2015, 09:13 AM
It's a bummer to get smoked like that but I like the fact that K gave Thornton a lot of opportunity. Our offense had no flow so maybe K gives the youngster a chance to start and figure it out. He has scoring chops and defensive ego, if he gets a little confidence...



This.

I want Thornton to play as many minutes as he can handle. On the job point guard training. He will take his lumps, but if he grows up over the season, we are contenders.

MChambers
11-18-2015, 09:17 AM
Yes, the pieces to get to an elite level later in the year are absolutely present. I think Thornton has the potential to be a more dynamic player overall than Tyus, though he clearly is far less polished. Please allow him the opportunity to play and take his lumps. That is the best way to get him better faster. Without that our season is doomed to probably two losses to UNC combined with a loss in the Round of 32 or at best 16.


Who had November 17 in the pool?
It's over.



Seriously, teams progress a lot month to month. I came away pretty encouraged. Ingram barely played, and Allen couldn't score, and yet Duke was within striking distance. Not bad for having your top two offensive talents shut down.

Maybe this team will not jell, but I doubt it. It's going to be a fun ride.

Kfanarmy
11-18-2015, 09:21 AM
Weird to look at the box score and realize these two teams were statistically even except in turnovers where Allen, Ingram and Thornton combined for 12 of Duke's 16.

Channing
11-18-2015, 09:22 AM
Haven't read the whole thread, but I am not as concerned about last night's loss as I thought I might be. There may not be another team in the country as long as UK and their length clearly bothered us. We know the offense is better than it showed, and Grayson and Brandon and Luke all missed shots that I think they make more than 50% of the time. UK is a darn good team, with player profiles unlike any we will likely see the rest of the season. There were several times the team could have made a push (Grayson's front end miss, for example), but there were also times UK could have pushed it out to 20.

All said, a tough outing against a very good team that will hopefully yield some great film from which to learn.

superdave
11-18-2015, 09:29 AM
Thornton should start the rest of the year, let him grow, let him lead, and let him take his lumps now so that by March, we'll be ready for this type of game again.


Are we better off bringing Thornton off the bench to keep the pressure on him lower? I think so. He's playing starter minutes already, so I am not sure it matters. But psychologically we need him to compete and grow, and if starting is too much pressure, then dont start him.

bluedev_92
11-18-2015, 09:30 AM
The box score didn't look as bad as the game, oddly. Count me in the camp that thinks we should appoint Thornton the king daddy point guard--he is the only guard we have that actually can play point as in make the passes etc., and if he's going to get "ready" that should do it. As many (including, ahem, moi) have posted this is a young team and not a team of superstars so they will get better. Ingram especially has a lot on his plate. He has to adjust to a new position as well as the college game. Jefferson and Plumlee are great veterans to have, but one issue the team will have to solve is how to have them in there without letting the other team play 5 on 3 on defense.

My take on the last comment is a bit different - without Jefferson & Plumlee in there we would have been destroyed!! Jefferson had a career night in rebounds (I didn't check the stats to make sure, but seemed like it) & Plumlee was all over the place, points, rebounds, blocks... Sure they made some mistakes, but many less than everyone else. The youngsters will grow & get much better than tonight, just will take some time.

superdave
11-18-2015, 09:39 AM
Another bit of perspective. Imagine if Grayson could go back in time a few hours and tell his younger self, "Dude, seriously, you HAVE to believe me. You will NOT be able to finish at the basket against Kentucky's big men. Don't even try." I mean, he wasted 4 or 5 possessions of Duke's figuring that out, and his misses or blocked shots at the rim led to easy baskets for Kentucky on runouts. It's quite possible with just that one piece of knowledge available to Grayson, Duke could've played Kentucky to within 1 or 2 possessions instead of losing comfortably by 11 points.

Grayson created space for himself, but that space closed quickly once in the paint. He's got to hit the runner or a little bank shot. He will not be able to finish at the rim over everyone, especially not at the next level.

Look at how Matt used a pump fake, side dribble and relocated to knock down a 3 ball last night. Little adjustments like that make you much tougher to guard. Grayson needs to figure that out and get a floater. He also needs use his driving ability to create space and take some step-back 3's. Not sure he can add those facets to his game during the season. We shall see.

MCFinARL
11-18-2015, 09:39 AM
It's over.



Seriously, teams progress a lot month to month. I came away pretty encouraged. Ingram barely played, and Allen couldn't score, and yet Duke was within striking distance. Not bad for having your top two offensive talents shut down.

Maybe this team will not jell, but I doubt it. It's going to be a fun ride.

Yes, maybe the value of this game for fans is that it will help us remember what this team is not--which is last year's team. Granted, last year's team also relied on some key freshmen, three of them had played together in USA basketball, and they were also, each in his own way, exceptionally mature for freshmen. Even so they had their bad moments and bad games, for sure.

But this group of freshmen looks more typical--they'll need more time to find their way, figure out how to play at this level, and especially figure out how to play together to bring out the best in the team. It will be a bit of a roller coaster but if we can be patient, we may be rewarded with, as you say, a fun ride.

CDu
11-18-2015, 09:42 AM
My thoughts on the game:

- Jamal Murray is legit. Well, I knew that beforehand, because I've seen him dominate at the Hoops Summit and I've seen him dominate in the Pan Am games. He was easily the best player on the floor. His only ceiling is self-imposed based on decision-making. When he attacked the basket, we had no answer.

- I was, however, unpleasantly surprised by Ulis. He showed a lot more scoring prowess than I remember from last year. He was always a terrific game manager, and was easily the best PG they had last year (again, tallest pigmy, yada yada yada). But he was way more assertive last night. He picked apart our guards/wings religiously.

- The crazy thing is that UK has a THIRD PG who is better than any of our PGs at the moment. Briscoe was third fiddle last night, but his ability to create only added to our struggles. UK has a wealth of talent on the perimeter so long as Calipari keeps playing these three guys heavy minutes. And given that they have NOTHING behind those guys, I can't imagine he won't give them all the minutes they can handle.

- I had some concerns that Allen was a bit of a one-trick pony: a "head-down, bull your way to the rim" type of player. My concern was that, against teams with solid defenses who are preparing for him, he'd struggle. Last night did nothing to dispel that concern. He went to his one move (high ball screen, drive from the left wing down the lane to his right, elevate for a layup/dunk) repeatedly, and repeatedly UK had the answer. Their guards stayed on him like glue, and when he did get into the lane, their bigs were waiting and ready. He was overmatched last night, with the exception of later in the game when he got matched up on Willis (who he predictably torched to the rim). The good news is that he'll have few matchups as tough as UK. But against good teams he's going to have to show more than just the one move if he's going to be an elite offensive player. As of now, he looks like a catch-and-shoot guy who can also dominate against defensive breakdowns. But I'm hesitant to say he's much more than that until he proves otherwise. It's tough being the main guy as opposed to the afterthought. Hopefully he'll build off this and improve his offensive versatility.

- I thought Thornton played relatively well, but he's clearly a freshman. He was one of the few guys who was able to get his shot off the dribble. There's clearly talent there. However, he also was too sloppy with the ball. I'm pleased with the talent there, just hopeful that he harnesses it over the course of the season.

- Plumlee had the first half of his life last night. Who would have predicted that he'd have the first 9 points for us? Without his first half (11 points, 8 rebounds (4 offensive), 5 blocks), we're not in the game at all. Unfortunately, that was pretty much it for him. In the second half, he tallied just 1 point, 2 rebounds, and 1 block. UK was not prepared early for his tenacity, but they clearly answered the bell in the second half. My only negative for him was that he got lost in transition numerous times. For a guy who makes his living on hustle and energy, you can't have that happen. But, given his hot start and his low ceiling, I'm willing to let that slide.

- Jefferson really impressed me. He didn't do anything new or different - he just did his usual but more of it. Scrapping for rebounds. Getting putbacks. Being in the right spot. He's going to get a LOT of double-doubles this year. He's grown so much physically. Very impressive.

- Ingram had a disappointing night. Given that he had a height advantage, I'd have expected more from him. I think he - like Allen - was caught off guard by how well UK's wings stayed with him, and how well UK's bigs stayed at home. It was his first game against big-time competition, so I'm willing to let it slide. Hopefully it is something he can learn from. But he was just a complete non-factor out there, and that can't happen.

- Matt Jones just epitomizes "old man." I'm not sure he ever got more than 6 inches off the floor. But there he was: bombing 3s, forcing turnovers, hitting teardrops over the trees. The dude has found his game at the college level. To steal Jay Bilas' catch phrase, you can't speed him up. He just doesn't seem to make bad decisions - he knows his limitations but he still finds a way to make an impact.

- I thought Kennard did a good job of getting open looks for himself... unfortunately they didn't go in. Hopefully those shots fall. He's clearly a crafty player who knows how to score, but eventually the ball has to go into the basket. Last night, it didn't.

- Jeter looked about what I expected: not ready for prime time.

What this game really emphasized is how dependent we are on Ingram and Allen to create for themselves. Until/unless Thornton can develop into a playmaking PG, we just have very little offensive flow. If teams can contain Ingram and Allen, we're going to struggle offensively. Frankly, Plumlee/Jones/Jefferson can't play much better than they did last night, and we still weren't really a threat after the first 20 minutes. The good news is that there won't be many teams that can contain both Ingram and Allen like that. Also, the young players should get better as the season progresses. But there is a very real potential that this team has a ceiling, as we don't have a lot of ways to get easy buckets right now.

The good news is that our defense looked strong. Kentucky has three capable PGs, yet struggled to consistently create offense. Aside from transition, they didn't exactly look great offensively. So while we may struggle at times offensively this year, we should be able to stay in games with defense.

dukebballcamper90-91
11-18-2015, 09:47 AM
I didn't watch the entire game but did we try any zone. We let a 5'9 pg abuse us. He is 2-11 this year from 3pt range. I feel you need to make him and other guards like him jump shooters.

RepoMan
11-18-2015, 09:50 AM
I would never want a player or a coach to say this -- nor would I want them to believe it. But after watching a lot of Duke basketball teams develop over the years, I believe that there is such a thing as a good loss, and this was one of them. Takeaways for me:

1. I am super impressed with Plumlee and Jefferson. If they can perform at that level against that team in that environment, they can consistently do that all season. That's a foundation I did not expect. Obviously, if we want to compete for Final Four and a Championship, we need better play and more minutes from our younger players, but having this senior foundation is great.

2. I also think the fact that they were the best two players on the court for Duke last night gives their leadership more credibility. It is always easier to lead if you are also performing. I don't know this, but I would bet a lot of money that Marshall and Amile have some of the best practice habits on the team. What a great lesson for the youngsters to learn -- hard work pays dividends.

3. You really do learn from adversity and losing. Here are some things I think we learned:

A. Grayson has spent exactly 3 games playing as the primary scoring option as a collegiate basketball player. The pressure of being The Man, rather than the 5th option, is completely different. What do you do when Plan A isn't working? How do you shoulder the mounting pressure when your team needs scoring, you are expected to provide it, and it isn't happening. Do you force it? Are you good enough to impose your will? Do you change your strategy? Do you let the game come to you and take advantage of what is available? We have no idea how Grayson will respond, or really what his coaches will advise, but you need the lesson before you can find the solution.

B. I believe that you earn your minutes. I also believe that it is almost impossible to second guess how K has assessed who has earned the minutes. So, for the most part, I think players are playing the right amount. That said, I hope Thornton continues to develop and earn an increasing share of PT. The other ball handlers are serviceable, but don't really create the way a true PG can create. If Thornton earns more minutes, it takes pressure off of Grayson. It also means we likely will get a few easier looks. Last night, every basket was a struggle. Best guess -- by the end of the season, we will be seeing a lot more from Thornton.

C. Ingram is a really unique player. The team needs to figure out how best to use him. More importantly, he needs to learn when and how to be more assertive. He needs to be much more dynamic for us to reach the highest levels. I am confident that his coaches can get him where he needs to be. I hope he doesn't start to feel the pressure of being a supposed "one and done" who is not performing at that level. The right sort of pressure can be good -- pressure to do what your coaches demand, to help your teammates, etc. But, external pressure to "meet expectations" is a terrible.


All in all, a win would have been much more fun, and I would not have heard people giving me grief today. But the loss was better for this team. It looks like a hard working group of kids who are going to be a lot of fun to watch develop.

superdave
11-18-2015, 09:50 AM
It's over.

We dropped from #1 to #2 on KenPom: http://kenpom.com/

accfanfrom1970
11-18-2015, 09:51 AM
[QUOTE=MCFinARL;839422]Yes, maybe the value of this game for fans is that it will help us remember what this team is not--which is last year's team.

I know, horse shoes and hand grenades....but I look at it this way - 4 more free throws, especially Grayson 1-3? And a 3 from Luke and Derryck (one went in and out), all of sudden it's a one possession game. And we played about as poorly as we can except for Marshall/Amile/Matt.

I guess that makes me a glass half full kind of guy. I think the freshman know they can look to Marshall and Amile and Matt....and I think they will only get better as the year goes on. I hope we get ready for the VCU pressure/havoc. As a local Richmonder (sp?) I want to win badly, revenge for 2007 and the whole local angle.

superdave
11-18-2015, 09:53 AM
I didn't watch the entire game but did we try any zone. We let a 5'9 pg abuse us. He is 2-11 this year from 3pt range. I feel you need to make him and other guards like him jump shooters.

Is that a question?

We played very little zone and pressed very little. I think Coach K might be saving zone for later. With our perimeter size and quickness, we should be playing man. A zone could have helped last night, but I assume Coach K is playing the long game here. This team needs to develop into a high pressure, man to man defensive team to achieve title contender status.

Also, you dont press vs. Tyler Ulis.

uh_no
11-18-2015, 09:57 AM
According to the WRAL game story (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke-kentucky-meet-in-early-season-top-5-battle/15115969/), Kentucky outscored duke 18-4 in transition; so there's your game margin and a little more right there. IIRC, 6-8 of those were on those painful blocks of Grayson Allen's shots in the first half.

So I agree the half-court defense wasn't so bad--although it came and went. Early on it looked like we simply weren't playing defense anywhere on the court, or at least were playing a defense that was easily solvable by Ky. But then they settled down and were better--there was that very long stretch of the first half when the score sat at 14-14, for example.

If you remove those points, it comes down to a fantastic 85ppp defense...

now obviously you can't view that completely in a vacuum...since there would be fewer posessions, and they would still have the half court opportunities...yadda yadda yadda, but given we'd be expected to give up a 106 to them anyway, I still think we can say our half court defense was decent.

yeah there were some breakdowns...i remember amile being way out of place in the zone a couple times and a few botched swithces....but nothing especially troublesome.

phaedrus
11-18-2015, 10:19 AM
In view of last night's game, Shane says:

"This Duke team reminds me of 2000 Duke. May have some growing pains, but will be in the mix in the end."

He would know, I suppose.

https://twitter.com/ShaneBattier/status/666809404788838401

captmojo
11-18-2015, 10:31 AM
Late to make a statement, I have decided to say what I saw last night.
Neither team played the game particularly well, save UK's defense on Allen and Ingram the entire night, and a flurry of UK's offensive surge in the final few minutes.
Ingram looked to be a half-step slow throughout the entire game. Allen was just mostly off-target and making ill attempts to drive the basket against a more weel-trained and effective group of defenders.
I have to look at the situation this way: It's early in the season and hopefully this will be a teaching opportunity so as to enable improvement.

I cannot explain how some of the foul calls made, can be justified. It's early in the season for officials too.:cool:
Next play!

ChillinDuke
11-18-2015, 10:38 AM
Having thought a bit more about the game, and now reading a lot of these posts, I think the consensus psyche of The Board is on point.

Not a terribly troubling loss. But certainly painful to watch our ineptness.

My main points (mainly echoing those upstream):

1) Amile, Marshall, and Matt served to solidify their roles by playing like they did on that stage. All three were good to great - something that can't be said for anyone else on the team last night. I agree that it's important for the leaders/captains to also be producing, and these guys did just that. Against a top team. In prime time.

2) To lose by 11 (although it felt like more) with the amount of production we got out of our presumably two biggest offensive threats (Grayson, Brandon) is kind of impressive. Impressive maybe isn't the right word. Heartening? Glass half full? I can't imagine we'll see many other, if any, games where both Grayson and Brandon put up the kind of performances (note: I didn't say stats; this game wasn't just about the stats - they were completely lost on the court in every sense) we witnessed last night.

3) Derryck has talent. You can see it. I'll give one example that nut shell's it for me: a couple times last night he thought about poke-away strips when he was guarding off-ball and the dribbler was in his vicinity - but he just didn't pull the trigger. That's the stuff of a heady defender. That's the stuff of a Quinn Cook-esque player. He's young, so he just was tentative in following that instinct. But I just love seeing that. He also IMO was the only non-captain to exhibit fight. He didn't seem as deer-in-headlight-ish as the others. Now, he couldn't always translate that into great play on the court - but, again, it's great to see that fight in him.

Where I disagree in my #3 is that Derryck should be given the reigns to this team unquestionably. Disagreed. I think you have to bring him along judiciously. He will ebb and he will flow. But he has clear talent. I'd do exactly as K is doing. Bring him off the bench, until he has that first inspiring performance where you say "wow." Then you start him. Perhaps to be benched again later on for some boneheadedness. But start him to reinforce that he is making important strides. I just don't think starting him to experience the agitations and frustrations that this team may have early on is necessarily the right thing. It could be - but I wouldn't do it were I a head coach. It could (could) put added pressure on the kid that the team's struggles (were they to happen) are his fault. I guess it depends on the kid and his character/emotions, something that Coach K obviously has a handle on. But that's my $0.02 on starting him right now.

4) Officiating. I thought the calls on drives/perimeter were somewhat different than the first two games. They let a bit more physicality take place than I would have expected - mainly on bodying up a player with your legs (again, on the perimeter) and even some hand checky kind of plays (a few by Derryck) that I thought immediate fouls but were left uncalled. Now, I don't necessarily disagree with that style of officiating. I'm all for some increased freedom of movement but defense must also be allowed within reason. My issue is my perceived difference in the officiating on the perimeter game to game. It creates confusion for players (and fans) as to what is allowed and what isn't. Now, an older, mature player should be able to adjust to that - but for a young team, I think it creates an added dynamic to overcome/learn.

In sum, I think we may actually be better off with a loss like this early. Very, very interested to see how we respond against VCU. I'll be on hand to watch.

- Chillin

captmojo
11-18-2015, 10:45 AM
I'm not a fan of the new, tighter rules on hand-checking, especially on the outside.

CDu
11-18-2015, 10:47 AM
I'm not a fan of the new, tighter rules on hand-checking, especially on the outside.

I very much am a fan of the tighter enforcement of the rules. Holding/hand-checking is lazy defense and should not be rewarded.

luvdahops
11-18-2015, 11:04 AM
My thoughts on the game:

- Jamal Murray is legit. Well, I knew that beforehand, because I've seen him dominate at the Hoops Summit and I've seen him dominate in the Pan Am games. He was easily the best player on the floor. His only ceiling is self-imposed based on decision-making. When he attacked the basket, we had no answer.

- I was, however, unpleasantly surprised by Ulis. He showed a lot more scoring prowess than I remember from last year. He was always a terrific game manager, and was easily the best PG they had last year (again, tallest pigmy, yada yada yada). But he was way more assertive last night. He picked apart our guards/wings religiously.

- The crazy thing is that UK has a THIRD PG who is better than any of our PGs at the moment. Briscoe was third fiddle last night, but his ability to create only added to our struggles. UK has a wealth of talent on the perimeter so long as Calipari keeps playing these three guys heavy minutes. And given that they have NOTHING behind those guys, I can't imagine he won't give them all the minutes they can handle.

- I had some concerns that Allen was a bit of a one-trick pony: a "head-down, bull your way to the rim" type of player. My concern was that, against teams with solid defenses who are preparing for him, he'd struggle. Last night did nothing to dispel that concern. He went to his one move (high ball screen, drive from the left wing down the lane to his right, elevate for a layup/dunk) repeatedly, and repeatedly UK had the answer. Their guards stayed on him like glue, and when he did get into the lane, their bigs were waiting and ready. He was overmatched last night, with the exception of later in the game when he got matched up on Willis (who he predictably torched to the rim). The good news is that he'll have few matchups as tough as UK. But against good teams he's going to have to show more than just the one move if he's going to be an elite offensive player. As of now, he looks like a catch-and-shoot guy who can also dominate against defensive breakdowns. But I'm hesitant to say he's much more than that until he proves otherwise. It's tough being the main guy as opposed to the afterthought. Hopefully he'll build off this and improve his offensive versatility.

- I thought Thornton played relatively well, but he's clearly a freshman. He was one of the few guys who was able to get his shot off the dribble. There's clearly talent there. However, he also was too sloppy with the ball. I'm pleased with the talent there, just hopeful that he harnesses it over the course of the season.

- Plumlee had the first half of his life last night. Who would have predicted that he'd have the first 9 points for us? Without his first half (11 points, 8 rebounds (4 offensive), 5 blocks), we're not in the game at all. Unfortunately, that was pretty much it for him. In the second half, he tallied just 1 point, 2 rebounds, and 1 block. UK was not prepared early for his tenacity, but they clearly answered the bell in the second half. My only negative for him was that he got lost in transition numerous times. For a guy who makes his living on hustle and energy, you can't have that happen. But, given his hot start and his low ceiling, I'm willing to let that slide.

- Jefferson really impressed me. He didn't do anything new or different - he just did his usual but more of it. Scrapping for rebounds. Getting putbacks. Being in the right spot. He's going to get a LOT of double-doubles this year. He's grown so much physically. Very impressive.

- Ingram had a disappointing night. Given that he had a height advantage, I'd have expected more from him. I think he - like Allen - was caught off guard by how well UK's wings stayed with him, and how well UK's bigs stayed at home. It was his first game against big-time competition, so I'm willing to let it slide. Hopefully it is something he can learn from. But he was just a complete non-factor out there, and that can't happen.

- Matt Jones just epitomizes "old man." I'm not sure he ever got more than 6 inches off the floor. But there he was: bombing 3s, forcing turnovers, hitting teardrops over the trees. The dude has found his game at the college level. To steal Jay Bilas' catch phrase, you can't speed him up. He just doesn't seem to make bad decisions - he knows his limitations but he still finds a way to make an impact.

- I thought Kennard did a good job of getting open looks for himself... unfortunately they didn't go in. Hopefully those shots fall. He's clearly a crafty player who knows how to score, but eventually the ball has to go into the basket. Last night, it didn't.

- Jeter looked about what I expected: not ready for prime time.

What this game really emphasized is how dependent we are on Ingram and Allen to create for themselves. Until/unless Thornton can develop into a playmaking PG, we just have very little offensive flow. If teams can contain Ingram and Allen, we're going to struggle offensively. Frankly, Plumlee/Jones/Jefferson can't play much better than they did last night, and we still weren't really a threat after the first 20 minutes. The good news is that there won't be many teams that can contain both Ingram and Allen like that. Also, the young players should get better as the season progresses. But there is a very real potential that this team has a ceiling, as we don't have a lot of ways to get easy buckets right now.

The good news is that our defense looked strong. Kentucky has three capable PGs, yet struggled to consistently create offense. Aside from transition, they didn't exactly look great offensively. So while we may struggle at times offensively this year, we should be able to stay in games with defense.

I was the the UC last night for the game (and thankfully spared the ESPN commentary), but your comments are very much in synch with my own impressions. A couple things I would add:

-Marshall just seemed gassed in the second half last night. He played 36 minutes total, with little to no rest after halftime until the closing minutes, which I think had a lot to do with his defensive lapses. I am not knocking Marshall's conditioning at all, which is likely phenomenal for a player his size, but expecting him to maintain his preferred pace and energy over such long stretches is probably not realistic to expect.

-As many others have noted, last night was Grayson's first game against a top team that game planned specifically for him. And it showed. Still, mixing in some combination of floaters, pull-ups and reverse layups - just a bit of unpredictability, in other words - would do wonders for Grayson, even if he remains right-hand dominant in his drives.

-Amile may never have a respectable jumper, but he is quite effective at putting the ball on the floor and driving from the foul line, elbow or baseline. With his touch and craftiness inside, he should be a reliable double figure scorer this year. The added strength has made him an even better rebounder, too, and averaging a double-double, or close to it, is not out of the question.

-The late first half sequence of Plumlee blocks and Jefferson rebounds was a wonder to behold, and had Kentucky fans shaking their heads.

-Matt Jones was an absolute rock last night. He will likely never be a go-to scorer, but he is not shy about taking shots when we need him to.

-I too was impressed with Thornton's quickness and penetrating ability. Ulis is a helluva tough cover, and was clearly too much for our other guards, even Matt. Derryck did not contain him by any means, but did make Ulis work harder to create space at a minimum. Thornton firmly establishing himself as a reliable starting PG may very well be the key to this team reaching its ceiling. But as CDu said, we are a ways from that right now.

luvdahops
11-18-2015, 11:06 AM
I very much am a fan of the tighter enforcement of the rules. Holding/hand-checking is lazy defense and should not be rewarded.

Agreed. There did seem to be some questionable block/charge calls last night (both ways), so I'm not sure CBB will ever get that right.

kAzE
11-18-2015, 11:23 AM
Just wanted to talk a little bit about the major positive from this game: Marshall Plumlee. I actually don't think this is Marshall's "15 minutes of fame" . . . he might not reach these heights again statistically, but I think we can expect him to be solid in rebounding and interior defense going forward. He's maybe the toughest guy on the team, and the physical attributes are all there: he's tall, strong, and athletic. And he seemed to finally figure out defensive positioning in the UK game. 2 fouls and 6 blocks in 36 minutes. He finally showed everyone what he can do when he puts it all together.

I've been tooting Marshall's horn for a long time. Physically, he compares just fine to his older brothers, which means he has a NBA body, no doubt. Big men typically take longer to develop, and in Marshall's case, it took a little bit longer, but he's getting there. His hands are still questionable, and his instincts aren't always great (I wish he would always keep the ball high instead of bringing it down low and getting it stripped), but he's willing to bang with anyone down low, he's relentless on the glass, and hustles as hard as anyone out there. I said before the season started that he's an above average starting center in the ACC, and I stand by that. We're never going to rely on him to score or doing anything that resembles ball handling, but he's one of the best defensive guys on the team and the ONLY rim protector. So it's nice to see him have a great game in that category.

pfrduke
11-18-2015, 11:32 AM
Agreed. There did seem to be some questionable block/charge calls last night (both ways), so I'm not sure CBB will ever get that right.

One thing I really like about the expanded circle is that our guys seem to be less focused on trying to draw help defense charges (since it's harder to get outside of the bigger restricted area) and more focused on contesting shots. This may just be a small sample size, but there have (to my eyes) been fewer block/charge calls period involving our guys on the defensive end than I'm used to seeing. With our size inside, this should pay dividends for us this season. Both Plumlee and Jefferson (and Ingram, and even Jeter) should be more dangerous as shot blockers than as charge takers.

Steven43
11-18-2015, 11:48 AM
It's over.



Seriously, teams progress a lot month to month. I came away pretty encouraged. Ingram barely played, and Allen couldn't score, and yet Duke was within striking distance. Not bad for having your top two offensive talents shut down.

Maybe this team will not jell, but I doubt it. It's going to be a fun ride.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but it would appear that you, and especially Kedsey, derive amusement in taking what I wrote and using it to draw inferences that I never intended. I never inferred it's over or that there was not reason for encouragement. If you will read, and actually comprehend what I wrote, you will find the key words 'Without that' as in without Derryck Thornton being allowed to start, play lots of minutes, play through his mistakes, and hopefully learn how to play the point guard position at a reasonably high college level sooner rather than later, Duke will not be able to beat presumably good teams like UNC and will likely not make it very far in the NCAA tournament. Would you disagree with that? Do you think Duke can beat good teams and advance far in the Tournament without strong point guard play from the only real point guard on the team, Derryck Thornton? Did you understand the point (no pun intended) of what I was trying to say about Derryck Thornton and how crucial he is to this team?

Indoor66
11-18-2015, 11:54 AM
Am I the only one who found Bilas to be more than painful to listen to? I reached the point of muting the TV. He just never shuts up.

flyingdutchdevil
11-18-2015, 12:32 PM
I think CDu and luvdahops covered my comments pretty well. But I wanted to add a few points, probably covered by other posters already:

-I really like our defensive improvements. Our twin towers, Thornton, and Matt were exceptional on-the-ball defenders. I was especially impressed with MP3's timing and Thornton's hunger on the ball. Very nice to see

-Thornton is growing up before our eyes. He has the ability to be a difference-maker and hopefully he can be the distributor that this team desperately needs

-I agree that every loss sucks, but this loss hurts a lot less than most given that this team is so young and it's so early in the season. We have actual freshman, not mature-and-ridiculously-awesome-freshman (Parker, Okafor, Winslow, Jones), and it's going to be a process to get them up to speed

-Kentucky. Wow. WOW. They are younger than we are and started three freshman and a sophomore. Ulis is incredible, and both Murray and Briscoe clearly showing insane potential. I was surprised by Briscoe's maturity and sadly surprised by how well the team passed. I think CDu said it best: they have 3 player-makers better than our best playmaker. If this is one of the youngest teams in the country, I don't want to face them come March. We will have improved, without question, but I think Kentucky's ceiling is much, much higher.

Kedsy
11-18-2015, 12:36 PM
Freshmen PGs not named Tyus or Kyrie are gonna have growing pains. I think 4 TOs against a Top 5 team in your third game is still promising. I'm bullish on the kid.

I agree. Even Tyus had some clunkers -- including 4 turnovers (against Elon, of all teams) in an early game last season. I'm not saying Derryck is as strong a PG as Tyus (he isn't), but I agree we should cut the kid some slack.


No, but he hasn't exactly played big minutes in all 3 games. Over 10 minutes into the first half, Amile had 2 pts/2 reb - typically, those numbers wouldn't keep a stud recruit on the bench. In the ~1 minute I saw Chase play in the first half, he had 2 fouls and a turnover. I'm just wondering how much of a factor he's projected to be this year? As a top 10 recruit, I was thinking potential starter or at least a decent stat line in ~20 mpg. I know it's only 3 games into the season, but I haven't seen anything yet.

First of all, Chase was #14 in the RSCI, and while it may not seem like it just looking at the numbers, #14 is very different from top 10. For example, Ryan Kelly and Shavlik Randolph were both #14 recruits, and neither of them lit the world on fire as freshmen, and neither of them played close to 20 mpg (Ryan 5.7 mpg, including DNPs as 0 min; and Shavlik 10.6 mpg, including DNPs as 0 min). Chase should probably get between 8 and 12 mpg as the 8th man in the rotation, perhaps similar to Shav.


Thanks for the link. After watching the replay, I'm not down about this defeat.

Nearly SEVENTEEN minutes into the game it's 27-24 and we look BETTER; more aggressive (check out the defensive stand at 5:30 1st half), Amile's dunk (and nearly 3pt play that wasn't called a bucket), slashing to the rim, MP3 going crazy on both ends, etc. This is all despite Ingram doing nothing but pick up a couple fouls. Allen also did nothing. He was blocked 4 times and had 2 altered. After one of his blocked drives, UK had a good rebound off a miss and nearly 3pt play (and Grayson nearly turned it over AGAIN right after that).

During the last 3 or so minutes of the first half UK banks in a 3 combined with two half court alleys - this gets them pumped up and the crowd yelling.

AND TO END THE HALF - Greyson makes a horrible pass which leads to a Kentucky layup as the horn sounds. Now it's 37-31 and the momentum has definitely swung to UK.

I agree with this. Without the banked three and the unfortunate half-ending fast-break, it's a 1 point game at halftime and the second half perhaps unfolds a little differently. This was not nearly as bad a loss as some are saying.


Maybe there's something positive to take away from us "only" losing by 11 with Ingram and Allen playing horribly?

Also agree with this. If someone told you before the game that Grayson and Brandon would combine for 10 points, most people would have predicted a much wider margin of defeat.


Not to keep piling on Greyson for having one bad game, but the game is much closer if he doesn't play - dare I say, we go into the 2nd half with 1-2 pt lead...I figure his 9 misses/turnovers cost the team at least 7-8 points. Kentucky won by 11 so that's the team's shot at having a close game right there.

This, I don't agree with at all. Grayson was the primary focus of their defense. If he hadn't played, they could have focused on others and limited the others' effectiveness.


Too many turnovers with guys not normally bringing the ball up and forcing the plays.

We only had 16 turnovers. While the 0.198 turnover percentage is a bit high, it's not terrible for one game. For example, in last season's December game against Elon, Duke had a 0.198 turnover percentage, and that competition was a lot less formidable than last night's.


Kennard must be a better shooter than he has shown to date. He should study how hard JJ worked to get open and try to emulate that.

I don't think getting open was Luke's problem last night. I don't think he took many (any?) inadvisable shots. He just missed. Jim Sumner mentioned Luke was nervous going into the Siena game. So maybe he was a little tight last night, too, playing on so big a stage for the first time in his life?


Those mentioning a 12 loss season could be right but coach K has a way of bringing his teams along, especially on defense, so we may well be in for happy moments.

I agree with CDu that a 12-loss season is very unlikely. Either way, I certainly wouldn't predict that sort of season after one loss to the #2 team in the country.


Jefferson and Plumlee are great veterans to have, but one issue the team will have to solve is how to have them in there without letting the other team play 5 on 3 on defense.

Amile and Marshall were the leading and third-leading scorer on the team last night. If it looked like we were playing 5 on 3 on offense, maybe you were confusing them with Grayson and Brandon, who combined for 10 points. Amile and Marshall had nine more points between them than Grayson, Brandon, Derryck, Luke, and Chase combined.


Does anyone have the UK points in transition/fast break?

According to the official box score, UK had 18 fast-break points. Assuming they didn't have any fast-break possessions that failed to lead to points, that would mean our halfcourt defensive ppp was 0.86.

Duke only had 4 fast-break points, meaning (with the same assumption) our halfcourt offensive ppp was 0.95, or somewhat better than Kentucky's halfcourt offense.


There may not be another team in the country as long as UK and their length clearly bothered us.

People keep talking about Kentucky's length, but I don't get it. They started a team of 6'11, 6'9, 6'5, 6'3, and 5'9. Generally, when 7-footer Humphries was in then Labissiere wasn't, so they rarely got "longer" than the starting lineup, and when Poythress came in they got shorter. I bet lots of teams have two guys on the floor who are 6'9 or taller (probably many with arms as long as Labissiere and Lee), and with bigger wings. Duke, for example, started 7'0, 6'9, 6'9, 6'5, 6'5, considerably "longer" than UK.

FerryFor50
11-18-2015, 12:43 PM
So maybe he was a little tight last night, too, playing on so big a stage for the first time in his life?


Not just the big stage, but also the big opponent. Which was even bigger given that his dad is a die hard Kentucky fan and that he probably made a very tough decision picking Duke over Kentucky.

MChambers
11-18-2015, 12:51 PM
I'm not 100% sure of this, but it would appear that you, and especially Kedsey, derive amusement in taking what I wrote and using it to draw inferences that I never intended. I never inferred it's over or that there was not reason for encouragement. If you will read, and actually comprehend what I wrote, you will find the key words 'Without that' as in without Derryck Thornton being allowed to start, play lots of minutes, play through his mistakes, and hopefully learn how to play the point guard position at a reasonably high college level sooner rather than later, Duke will not be able to beat presumably good teams like UNC and will likely not make it very far in the NCAA tournament. Would you disagree with that? Do you think Duke can beat good teams and advance far in the Tournament without strong point guard play from the only real point guard on the team, Derryck Thornton? Did you understand the point (no pun intended) of what I was trying to say about Derryck Thornton and how crucial he is to this team?
I derive amusement from lots of things, including being the first to say "It's over."

For that reason, I might have been too quick to quote you, but, on the other hand, you did say "Without that [Thornton getting better faster] our season is doomed to probably two losses to UNC combined with a loss in the Round of 32 or at best 16." That's a pretty alarmist statement and I don't think it's justified. While I agree that it would be very helpful to have Thornton be the man at point, I don't think this team is that weak without him.

I can't tell you how Kedsy derives his amusement.

phaedrus
11-18-2015, 12:54 PM
People keep talking about Kentucky's length, but I don't get it. They started a team of 6'11, 6'9, 6'5, 6'3, and 5'9. Generally, when 7-footer Humphries was in then Labissiere wasn't, so they rarely got "longer" than the starting lineup, and when Poythress came in they got shorter. I bet lots of teams have two guys on the floor who are 6'9 or taller (probably many with arms as long as Labissiere and Lee), and with bigger wings. Duke, for example, started 7'0, 6'9, 6'9, 6'5, 6'5, considerably "longer" than UK.

Right. Kentucky does not have extraordinary length, but they do have pretty good (though not as good as last year) shot-blocking (even though, thanks to Marshall, we out-blocked them on the night), and certain of our players did not figure out how to deal with that (whether through dishing, pump-faking, floaters, etc.).

Kedsy
11-18-2015, 12:56 PM
I didn't watch the entire game but did we try any zone. We let a 5'9 pg abuse us. He is 2-11 this year from 3pt range. I feel you need to make him and other guards like him jump shooters.

We did play some zone, but not a great deal. I don't think more zone would have contained Ulis any better than man-to-man did.


I'll be on hand to watch.

Me, too.


I'm not 100% sure of this, but it would appear that you, and especially Kedsey, derive amusement in taking what I wrote and using it to draw inferences that I never intended. I never inferred it's over or that there was not reason for encouragement. If you will read, and actually comprehend what I wrote, you will find the key words 'Without that' as in without Derryck Thornton being allowed to start, play lots of minutes, play through his mistakes, and hopefully learn how to play the point guard position at a reasonably high college level sooner rather than later, Duke will not be able to beat presumably good teams like UNC and will likely not make it very far in the NCAA tournament. Would you disagree with that? Do you think Duke can beat good teams and advance far in the Tournament without strong point guard play from the only real point guard on the team, Derryck Thornton? Did you understand the point (no pun intended) of what I was trying to say about Derryck Thornton and how crucial he is to this team?

I apologize if you were offended. To answer you seriously, (a) I agree Derryck's development is important to this year's team; (b) I don't think anybody can make any reasonable predictions about Duke/Carolina game results or NCAA Tournament finishes, especially three games into the season. Period. Winning rivalry games and advancing in the Tournament have so many variables that are essentially unrelated to how good a team is; in my opinion it's just silly to say something like "Duke will not be able to beat presumably good teams like UNC and will likely not make it very far in the NCAA tournament," even if you make it conditional. So I understand your point, but disagree with your conclusion.

The Gordog
11-18-2015, 01:04 PM
really wrong.

oof. our offense was U-G-L-Y to watch...lots of standing around, and purposeless dribbling. lots of bad shots. How many turnovers, blocks, and rebounds off bad misses did they turn into easy points? at least enough to cover the difference in the game.

we got down the floor and were lost! how many points did WE get because of offense rebounds on missed shots? the fact we got the points is great, but the shots that lead to the boards were not.

we've got a lot of learning to do as a team.

Oof.

regroup.

I think these will both be good teams come march.

I also thought we would be able to score on them (wow was I wrong) but at least I was right that we would have trouble with containing their fast break!

Kfanarmy
11-18-2015, 01:57 PM
Am I the only one who found Bilas to be more than painful to listen to? I reached the point of muting the TV. He just never shuts up.

I turned the TV down at one point...I'm not sure why so many announcers/analysts think they have to cover every minute of the game with their own voices. I also think he's been around the game so long as an analyst, that he's started to really cozy up to the big programs. It seemed every time a KY player did anything right, the hyperbole overflowed.

CDu
11-18-2015, 02:03 PM
Am I the only one who found Bilas to be more than painful to listen to? I reached the point of muting the TV. He just never shuts up.

Yeah, I think it is really hard to be a good color commentator. Bilas isn't my cup of tea. I prefer a Hubie Brooks any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There just aren't many guys who have the temperament for the role AND the x's and o's chops for it. Bilas knows his basketball, but he's just not the right persona for that job. He does a better job (not that I'm a fan of his, but I recognize he is better at it than as an in-game analyst) as a studio analyst.

That said, I think it's a hard job to do well. You have to balance watching the game closely with talking enough to avoid dead air, while also not talking too much. Bilas strays too often into Vitale "soapbox" territory during games.

bedeviled
11-18-2015, 02:40 PM
According to the official box score, UK had 18 fast-break points. Assuming they didn't have any fast-break possessions that failed to lead to points, that would mean our halfcourt defensive ppp was 0.86The point is neither here nor there to me, but just to verify the math...are you taking into account those fast break possessions? If you subtract 9 possessions that correspond to the 18 fast break points, then UK would have 56 points in 57 possessions (per SCACCHoops) = 0.98 PPP. Yes?


I agree. Even Tyus had some clunkers -- including 4 turnovers (against Elon, of all teams) in an early game last season. I'm not saying Derryck is as strong a PG as Tyus (he isn't), but I agree we should cut the kid some slackI feel like I'm the only one who didn't think Thornton had a good game. I'm not particularly concerned as he's young, new to the team, and I fully expect him to improve quickly and with ease. And, I agree with many in thinking that he could be an important piece to this year's puzzle and has plenty of potential individually. With specific regard to the discussion you are having, I do give him a pass on the offensive end. While he wasn't a playmaker PG, he was important last night in giving us someone who works with ball-in-hand on offense, especially considering Ingram's foul trouble and the fact that we also had a spot shooter and two bigs on the floor. He allowed us more ball protection and freedom on that end of the floor.

However, I'm going bonkers wondering how I saw his defensive game so differently than so many other people :confused::p:confused:. I don't want to be in the practice of trying to prove what is bad about Duke players, nor do I look forward to more negative comments for expressing this opinion, but I'll be darned if I didn't think his play last night was subpar (maybe people are just comparing his play to their expectations?).

My reason for reposting my view is to add that, contrary to the apparent consensus, I'm like 90% sure that he did not do a better job guarding Ulis than Grayson or Matt (or Brandon/Luke, for that matter). To me, Ulis was the player of the game - not only in stat stuffing, but in controlling the game, both of which he did more easily against Thornton than against our other perimeter players...as could be expected. It seems to me like Ulis kept the ball out of his own hands much more and got very limited points/assists when guarded by our other perimeter players. I know people are going to think, "What? Is he supposed to shut down Ulis? Ulis is magnificent." I'm just saying that his defense did not look good to me and that our other perimeter guys did do a better job at that task.

Again, I'm not particularly concerned about it at this point except for the fact that so many people have expressed kudos for his defensive display and exhibition of oomph/determination/fight/hustle/hunger, neither of which were apparent to me. I'm not saying he rolled over and died, is a bad player, or is a bad person, just that he didn't have a good game last night. I expect that his defensive play will improve significantly and quickly, and I expect opponents to test him, especially with screens, until it does.

azzefkram
11-18-2015, 02:42 PM
Somewhat surprisingly, I'm not that bummed by the loss. Kentucky is the better team right now. Come March it might be a different story. Loved how Amile and Marshall played. Matt was great on the offensive end and sort of meh (for him) on the defensive end. He seems a step slow to me, maybe he's still dealing with the groin issue. I thought Thornton did an okay job overall. He seemed to be the only defender who had a shot of staying in front of Ulis. I hope he can earn his way to more minutes since a PG looks to be a missing element of our O.

I know it's only three games but Ingram at the four for big minutes is a big mistake. He is undeniably talented and can do things on the floor that few can but he is just not strong enough.

tux
11-18-2015, 02:42 PM
I was the the UC last night for the game (and thankfully spared the ESPN commentary), but your comments are very much in synch with my own impressions. A couple things I would add:

-Marshall just seemed gassed in the second half last night. He played 36 minutes total, with little to no rest after halftime until the closing minutes, which I think had a lot to do with his defensive lapses. I am not knocking Marshall's conditioning at all, which is likely phenomenal for a player his size, but expecting him to maintain his preferred pace and energy over such long stretches is probably not realistic to expect.

-As many others have noted, last night was Grayson's first game against a top team that game planned specifically for him. And it showed. Still, mixing in some combination of floaters, pull-ups and reverse layups - just a bit of unpredictability, in other words - would do wonders for Grayson, even if he remains right-hand dominant in his drives.

-Amile may never have a respectable jumper, but he is quite effective at putting the ball on the floor and driving from the foul line, elbow or baseline. With his touch and craftiness inside, he should be a reliable double figure scorer this year. The added strength has made him an even better rebounder, too, and averaging a double-double, or close to it, is not out of the question.

-The late first half sequence of Plumlee blocks and Jefferson rebounds was a wonder to behold, and had Kentucky fans shaking their heads.

-Matt Jones was an absolute rock last night. He will likely never be a go-to scorer, but he is not shy about taking shots when we need him to.

-I too was impressed with Thornton's quickness and penetrating ability. Ulis is a helluva tough cover, and was clearly too much for our other guards, even Matt. Derryck did not contain him by any means, but did make Ulis work harder to create space at a minimum. Thornton firmly establishing himself as a reliable starting PG may very well be the key to this team reaching its ceiling. But as CDu said, we are a ways from that right now.



I couldn't help but think what a big difference Tyus Jones would make on this team. I know that's not a very helpful comment, but this team needs better PG play. But I agree with you (and I've said it before) that Thornton is going to need to play a lot for this team to reach it's potential. Duke may need to sacrifice some early losses in order to move him up the learning curve.

Last night didn't prove or disprove anything, but it was one data point that reinforced my preseason thought that both Grayson and Brandon were being overrated by Duke fans. They will be up and down like typical underclassmen.

ScreechTDX1847
11-18-2015, 02:47 PM
Anyone have a link to Coach K's post game presser?

MChambers
11-18-2015, 03:11 PM
Anyone have a link to Coach K's post game presser?

www.goduke.com has it. I didn't listen yet, but it's there.

CDu
11-18-2015, 03:22 PM
I couldn't help but think what a big difference Tyus Jones would make on this team. I know that's not a very helpful comment, but this team needs better PG play. But I agree with you (and I've said it before) that Thornton is going to need to play a lot for this team to reach it's potential. Duke may need to sacrifice some early losses in order to move him up the learning curve.

Last night didn't prove or disprove anything, but it was one data point that reinforced my preseason thought that both Grayson and Brandon were being overrated by Duke fans. They will be up and down like typical underclassmen.

Yeah, it is really difficult going from having two PGs to having no PGs. We saw first-hand from Kentucky the benefit of having multiple guys on the floor who can create for both themselves and others. UK was able to play basically the whole game with at least two PGs on the floor. Right now, as Thornton is still getting up to speed, we just don't have a PG. And it makes a big difference.

To compound that, we ALSO don't have a guy to whom we can throw the ball and get easy points. If you don't have a PG, it sure helps to have a guy who you can hand the ball to and have him create points on his own. Last year, we had that with Okafor. In theory, Allen and Ingram are/were going to have to fill that role (in a different way, obviously). But last night's game should be a precautionary tale as to how hard it is for a player to consistently create his own offense. Allen and Ingram are very talented players, but I'm not sure they're ready to carry the offensive load. So hopefully Thornton can improve enough to get them the openings they can exploit.

We've seen what Allen can do when he gets an angle and/or when the defense breaks down. What he hasn't shown is the ability to create that breakdown by himself as the focus of a defense. A guy like Tyus Jones would make Allen a strong National Player of the Year candidate this year, as Allen could average 20-25 ppg with the right PG. I don't expect Thornton to get there this year, but hopefully he can do enough as the season progresses to free Allen up enough to run at the rim all day.

And I don't mean to put a cap on what Allen and Ingram can do. This was Allen's first game as "the man" against a real opponent, and it was Ingram's first game period against a real opponent. It's quite possible that they figure it out on the fly as the season progresses and are able to get to that "carry the offense" level.

hudlow
11-18-2015, 03:32 PM
To compound that, we ALSO don't have a guy to whom we can throw the ball and get easy points. If you don't have a PG, it sure helps to have a guy who you can hand the ball to and have him create points on his own. Last year, we had that with Okafor.

But Duke does have 2 players that they can feed the ball inside - Amile and MP3 - that can kick it back out. I saw very little of that last night. I thought that's because they needed a point guard that can set up that play. It's always been one of the better offenses for Duke.

CDu
11-18-2015, 03:38 PM
But Duke does have 2 players that they can feed the ball inside - Amile and MP3 - that can kick it back out. I saw very little of that last night. I thought that's because they needed a point guard that can set up that play. It's always been one of the better offenses for Duke.

That's not a way to get easy points. Neither Jefferson nor Plumlee are go-to scorers, nor does dumping the ball to them collapse the defense to create easy opportunities for the guys on the perimeter.

Feeding inside to someone who doesn't threaten the defense and isn't a great passer isn't substantially more valuable than handing the ball to Ingram or Allen and saying "go make something happen." In fact, it's arguably less effective.

I'm not saying we should never pass the ball to Jefferson or Plumlee. I just don't think feeding them regularly in the post is going to be a way to facilitate the offense.

The value of a PG is that he can break down a defense and bend it so that guys can get the ball in scoring positions. If you have a good PG, it is much easier to score off the ball than on the ball. But that is only true if you have a guy that can draw the defense out of position and feed you. Someone who can see the floor well and anticipate the angles. Someone who can beat his man off the dribble and keep his head up to make the right pass off the dribble. It's not simply having a guy to throw the ball into the post. Frankly, any reasonable wing should be able to do that. It's getting the ball to players (bigs and wings alike) in positions to score easily. That's what we're missing by not having a PG right now.

duke79
11-18-2015, 03:56 PM
Yeah, I think it is really hard to be a good color commentator. Bilas isn't my cup of tea. I prefer a Hubie Brooks any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There just aren't many guys who have the temperament for the role AND the x's and o's chops for it. Bilas knows his basketball, but he's just not the right persona for that job. He does a better job (not that I'm a fan of his, but I recognize he is better at it than as an in-game analyst) as a studio analyst.

That said, I think it's a hard job to do well. You have to balance watching the game closely with talking enough to avoid dead air, while also not talking too much. Bilas strays too often into Vitale "soapbox" territory during games.

I agree with you.....it can be a hard job to do well (and you can't please everyone!). Obviously, the color commentator needs to add some additional insight to what is going on, besides the actual play-by-play, without being obvious or hogging too much of the audio of the game or just being a cheerleader (see Dick Vitale). I think there are very few who do it well, in any sport. I'm not a huge fan of Jay Bilas.......he is obviously smart and knowledgeable but he may be TOO smart and knowledgeable. IMO, he comes across as somewhat of a "know-it-all".....like the person playing Trivial Pursuit who knows every answer. It's impressive but annoying. I've learned to mentally ignore most of the audio......and just concentrate on the video.

superdave
11-18-2015, 04:14 PM
Draft Express breakdown of the players last night -

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/What-Did-We-Learn-from-the-Champions-Classic-Part-1-Kentucky-vs-Duke-5327

Olympic Fan
11-18-2015, 04:23 PM
www.goduke.com has it. I didn't listen yet, but it's there.

I listened ... not much concrete info from K, but I thought his demeanor was really interesting. He was relaxed and really jovial. I've seen him tight-lipped and angry after a loss like this -- even after some less-than-impressive wins. But this one didn't seem to bother him at all.

My impression is that he knew this team was unready for the big-time and he welcome the chance to use it as a teaching moment.

Somebody else watch it and see if you see the same thing.

Kedsy
11-18-2015, 04:29 PM
The point is neither here nor there to me, but just to verify the math...are you taking into account those fast break possessions? If you subtract 9 possessions that correspond to the 18 fast break points, then UK would have 56 points in 57 possessions (per SCACCHoops) = 0.98 PPP. Yes?

Sorry, I'm not sure how I arrived at those earlier numbers. UK had one more possession than Duke did (1st and last possession of the first half) and thus Kentucky's halfcourt ppp was 56/58 = 0.966. Duke's halfcourt ppp was 59/64 = 0.922.


To me, Ulis was the player of the game - not only in stat stuffing, but in controlling the game, both of which he did more easily against Thornton than against our other perimeter players...as could be expected. It seems to me like Ulis kept the ball out of his own hands much more and got very limited points/assists when guarded by our other perimeter players.

For what it's worth, here are Ulis's stats per 40 while Derryck was in the game vs. when Derryck wasn't in the game:

With Derryck in the game (29 mins): 19.3 pts per 40 on 16.6 shots per 40; 5.5 assists per 40; 41.7% FG%

With Derryck NOT in the game (11 mins): 14.5 pts per 40 on 3.6 shots per 40; 7.3 assists per 40; 100% FG%


So, it doesn't tell us much, especially with only an 11 minute sample size vs. others, but against our other perimeter players, Ulis had more assists per minute and fewer points per minute on better efficiency (1.16 pts per shot vs. Derryck and 4.00 pts per shot vs. others). Obviously none of the stats show how easily Ulis controlled the game, and the stats don't show that Derryck performed significantly better, but they don't necessarily support your observations, either.

Clay Feet POF
11-18-2015, 04:43 PM
I listened ... not much concrete info from K, but I thought his demeanor was really interesting. He was relaxed and really jovial. I've seen him tight-lipped and angry after a loss like this -- even after some less-than-impressive wins. But this one didn't seem to bother him at all.

My impression is that he knew this team was unready for the big-time and he welcome the chance to use it as a teaching moment.

Somebody else watch it and see if you see the same thing.

Absolutely, I felt the same way after the game really not upset. Just a great Attention Teaching Event that Coach K can use for many weeks, and the players have an idea of what improvements have to be made.

Atlanta Duke
11-18-2015, 05:04 PM
The Washington Post proclaims it's over

Kentucky might not lose a game this season

http://wapo.st/1X7A5kH

MChambers
11-18-2015, 05:09 PM
I listened ... not much concrete info from K, but I thought his demeanor was really interesting. He was relaxed and really jovial. I've seen him tight-lipped and angry after a loss like this -- even after some less-than-impressive wins. But this one didn't seem to bother him at all.

My impression is that he knew this team was unready for the big-time and he welcome the chance to use it as a teaching moment.

Somebody else watch it and see if you see the same thing.

I saw the same thing (just watched a few minutes ago). Very relaxed, analytical. His analysis was not all that different from the analysis of some of the more seasoned observers here.

devildeac
11-18-2015, 05:09 PM
They can have my specially designed 40-0 t-shirt. Just like last year. No use for me again this year. Passed on the tattoo again, too.

:o:rolleyes:

bedeviled
11-18-2015, 05:30 PM
For what it's worth, here are Ulis's stats per 40 while Derryck was in the game vs. when Derryck wasn't in the gameHaha, not worth much when the numbers have him averaging 4 points per shot ;) - much harder to accomplish in real life than on paper.

With Derryck in the game (29 mins): 19.3 pts per 40 on 16.6 shots per 40; 5.5 assists per 40; 41.7% FG%
With Derryck NOT in the game (11 mins): 14.5 pts per 40 on 3.6 shots per 40; 7.3 assists per 40; 100% FG%

Here's what those numbers are prior to extrapolation to 40 minutes:
With Derryck in the game (29 mins): 14 pts on 12 shots; 4 assists; 5/12 FG%
With Derryck NOT in the game (11 mins): 4 pts on 1 shot; 2 assists; 1/1 FG%

Those numbers don't tell you that the 1 shot Ulis took with Thornton NOT in the game was the baseline jumper he made against Amile when we were playing zone. The numbers don't tell the full story about the assists either. I'm no scorekeeper, but I think he was spuriously credited with an assist on the first possession of the game. So, to my eyes, he had 2 points (FTs), zero shots, and 1 assist against our perimeter players when Thornton wasn't in the game. (AND, those points game on a very questionable foul call on Grayson and the assist came on a 3-on-1 fast break or something IIRC). As I previously suggested, he seemed to largely keep the ball out of his hands when he was guarded by our other perimeter players.

I appreciate your efforts in trying to sneak me into the party, but I'm gonna stand by my assertions. I've watched a replay and individual highlights and still see the same thing.

eddiehaskell
11-18-2015, 05:33 PM
First of all, Chase was #14 in the RSCI, and while it may not seem like it just looking at the numbers, #14 is very different from top 10. For example, Ryan Kelly and Shavlik Randolph were both #14 recruits, and neither of them lit the world on fire as freshmen, and neither of them played close to 20 mpg (Ryan 5.7 mpg, including DNPs as 0 min; and Shavlik 10.6 mpg, including DNPs as 0 min). Chase should probably get between 8 and 12 mpg as the 8th man in the rotation, perhaps similar to Shav.I don't disagree, but as of Sept 2014, ESPN, Rivals and Scout had Chase ranked 8 or 9. I don't know if he regressed as a senior, but ESPN currently has him at #11 which I assume is their final rankings. By no means am I judging him based on his freshman season regardless of what he does, but I just think it'd be nice to have a player ranked that high to step in and contribute. Players like Meeks, Paige, Brice Johnson, Justice, Matt Jones, etc were ranked lower than Chase. In regards to Shav and Ryan - if Chase's first two season are similar, I'd say that's a bit of a disappointment.


This, I don't agree with at all. Grayson was the primary focus of their defense. If he hadn't played, they could have focused on others and limited the others' effectiveness.Who would they focus on? Amile and Marshall don't really have offensive games that can be focused on (they get a lot of clean up and hustle buckets). I just don't see how any player as a focal point or not has any positives while going 0-9 with 4 turnovers and several momentum changing plays for the other team. UK didn't really have to do anything out of the way to focus on Grayson - he simply put his head down time after time and barreled in. If in the process of doing this he also kicked it out for 3-4 assist, I may agree, but he had ZERO in the first half and only 1 for the entire game. I don't think UK's awareness of Grayson actually helped anyone play better.

dukelifer
11-18-2015, 07:44 PM
The Washington Post proclaims it's over

Kentucky might not lose a game this season

http://wapo.st/1X7A5kH

regular season perhaps- post season- we shall see.

jipops
11-18-2015, 08:33 PM
Draft Express breakdown of the players last night -

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/What-Did-We-Learn-from-the-Champions-Classic-Part-1-Kentucky-vs-Duke-5327

Harsh words regarding Grayson but nothing I could disagree with. Bolting to the hole against Wisconsin worked great largely because they had no shot blockers and weren't as quick. Kentucky on the other hand had the length and quickness to stifle those barreling drives. Grayson is going find himself having very difficult games in the future if Duke isn't able to put a distributor on the floor.

There are some nice possibilities with this team but there are also some glaring areas where there is just a lack of skill. I'm still holding out hope that Thornton is able to grow up fast. And if he does it could change the makeup of this team significantly, possibly even making us go small with Amile starting at center. But if not, then there could more than the usual number of disappointments we've been used to the last few seasons.

gumbomoop
11-18-2015, 08:35 PM
regular season perhaps- post season- we shall see.

I'll guess they'll lose more than one of these 4 away games: LSU, Kansas, Texas A&M, Vandy.

KYtotheCore
11-18-2015, 09:26 PM
regular season perhaps- post season- we shall see.

Oh no, I was happy with the 38-0 record last year, thinking it was possible . . . but for any media member to start this talk basically makes me want to add the disclaimer "Not all UK fans agree with what was written". This kind of talk is a curse. Possible? Maybe. Likely? No.

duke96
11-18-2015, 10:46 PM
Harsh words regarding Grayson but nothing I could disagree with. Bolting to the hole against Wisconsin worked great largely because they had no shot blockers and weren't as quick. Kentucky on the other hand had the length and quickness to stifle those barreling drives. Grayson is going find himself having very difficult games in the future if Duke isn't able to put a distributor on the floor.

There are some nice possibilities with this team but there are also some glaring areas where there is just a lack of skill. I'm still holding out hope that Thornton is able to grow up fast. And if he does it could change the makeup of this team significantly, possibly even making us go small with Amile starting at center. But if not, then there could more than the usual number of disappointments we've been used to the last few seasons.

Strongly hoping that Grayson will be able to show more repertoire and not end up with an Austin Rivers-esque season of quick moves to the basket followed by consistent rejection when there are capable rim protectors.

freshmanjs
11-18-2015, 10:53 PM
Strongly hoping that Grayson will be able to show more repertoire and not end up with an Austin Rivers-esque season of quick moves to the basket followed by consistent rejection when there are capable rim protectors.

Why so down on Austin Rivers? He was the best player on a top 10 Kenpom offense. If we can say that about Grayson Allen this season, we'll be in pretty good shape.

Kedsy
11-18-2015, 10:54 PM
I don't disagree, but as of Sept 2014, ESPN, Rivals and Scout had Chase ranked 8 or 9. I don't know if he regressed as a senior, but ESPN currently has him at #11 which I assume is their final rankings.

The RSCI is a composite of all the major recruiting services, including Rivals, Scout, and ESPN. Chase wasn't a top ten recruit.


By no means am I judging him based on his freshman season regardless of what he does, but I just think it'd be nice to have a player ranked that high to step in and contribute. Players like Meeks, Paige, Brice Johnson, Justice, Matt Jones, etc were ranked lower than Chase. In regards to Shav and Ryan - if Chase's first two season are similar, I'd say that's a bit of a disappointment.

First of all, Justise (not Justice) was ranked #13 in the RSCI, so not lower than Chase. Players in the teens are a crapshoot. Some are ready, some not. Players beyond that are even more of a crapshoot, but even then if we look at the players you name it doesn't really support your point. Matt Jones, for example, played 6.7 mpg as a freshman (including DNP-CDs as 0 minutes). Coach Williams at UNC plays a much longer rotation than Coach K at Duke, but even then, Meeks only saw 16.3 mpg as a frosh and Johnson only 10.6 mpg. Paige played 29.2 mpg, but he was the only PG on the roster that year, and Chase Jeter isn't the only big man on Duke's current roster.

If Chase has the same first freshman/sophomore seasons as Ryan Kelly, but also the same junior/senior seasons (without the injuries, of course), frankly I'll be thrilled.


Who would they focus on? Amile and Marshall don't really have offensive games that can be focused on (they get a lot of clean up and hustle buckets). I just don't see how any player as a focal point or not has any positives while going 0-9 with 4 turnovers and several momentum changing plays for the other team. UK didn't really have to do anything out of the way to focus on Grayson - he simply put his head down time after time and barreled in. If in the process of doing this he also kicked it out for 3-4 assist, I may agree, but he had ZERO in the first half and only 1 for the entire game. I don't think UK's awareness of Grayson actually helped anyone play better.

Do you really think Grayson missed all those shots on his own, without any help from UK's defenders? Kentucky keyed on Grayson and Brandon and they successfully kept them from scoring. If Grayson hadn't played, and they could have reallocated those defensive resources, I'm fairly confident it would have gone worse for Duke than it did.


But if not, then there could more than the usual number of disappointments we've been used to the last few seasons.

Please tell me, so I can prepare myself -- how many disappointments per season have we become used to the last few seasons? Especially last year. And in 2010. I'm just curious.

Edouble
11-18-2015, 10:59 PM
Strongly hoping that Grayson will be able to show more repertoire and not end up with an Austin Rivers-esque season of quick moves to the basket followed by consistent rejection when there are capable rim protectors.

Uh, I think "consistent rejection" is taking things a bit far.

I certainly recall Austin hitting a game winning three over the outstretched hands of a rim protector.

uh_no
11-18-2015, 11:06 PM
Why so down on Austin Rivers? He was the best player on a top 10 Kenpom offense. If we can say that about Grayson Allen this season, we'll be in pretty good shape.

I'm not sure equating any team to the rivers team is necessarily a good thing....I get reminded that yearly by my mountain-hawk father, grand-mother, and hosts of aunts and uncles....

freshmanjs
11-18-2015, 11:07 PM
I'm not sure equating any team to the rivers team is necessarily a good thing...I get reminded that yearly by my mountain-hawk father, grand-mother, and hosts of aunts and uncles...

the problem with that team was not offense.

duke96
11-18-2015, 11:11 PM
Uh, I think "consistent rejection" is taking things a bit far.

Could we agree on "not infrequent"?

sagegrouse
11-18-2015, 11:36 PM
The RSCI is a composite of all the major recruiting services, including Rivals, Scout, and ESPN. Chase wasn't a top ten recruit.

First of all, Justise (not Justice) was ranked #13 in the RSCI, so not lower than Chase. Players in the teens are a crapshoot. Some are ready, some not. Players beyond that are even more of a crapshoot, but even then if we look at the players you name it doesn't really support your point. Matt Jones, for example, played 6.7 mpg as a freshman (including DNP-CDs as 0 minutes). Coach Williams at UNC plays a much longer rotation than Coach K at Duke, but even then, Meeks only saw 16.3 mpg as a frosh and Johnson only 10.6 mpg. Paige played 29.2 mpg, but he was the only PG on the roster that year, and Chase Jeter isn't the only big man on Duke's current roster.

If Chase has the same first freshman/sophomore seasons as Ryan Kelly, but also the same junior/senior seasons (without the injuries, of course), frankly I'll be thrilled.

Do you really think Grayson missed all those shots on his own, without any help from UK's defenders? Kentucky keyed on Grayson and Brandon and they successfully kept them from scoring. If Grayson hadn't played, and they could have reallocated those defensive resources, I'm fairly confident it would have gone worse for Duke than it did.



Please tell me, so I can prepare myself -- how many disappointments per season have we become used to the last few seasons? Especially last year. And in 2010. I'm just curious.

Easy, there. Easy. Say to yourself, "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." You'll get used to it, and the game will still be a lot of fun.

have fun,
Sage

Edouble
11-18-2015, 11:46 PM
Easy, there. Easy. Say to yourself, "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." You'll get used to it, and the game will still be a lot of fun.

have fun,
Sage

My only issue with this is that these words could be applied to half or more of the posts around here.

And for some of us, the intensity and scrutiny of it all is the fun.

It's like on holidays when we play board games together as a family and I get called out for being a stickler for the rules. Everyone always says "C'mon, it's just a game, have fun." Well, for me, it's not fun unless we adhere to the structure of the game by following the rules down to the exact semantics of what is written on the back of the box. Competing within that definitive structure is what is so enjoyable... otherwise you're just throwing dice and moving little plastic pieces around.

JPtheGame
11-19-2015, 12:18 AM
Maybe Grayson is the hero that Durham deserves but not the one it needs right now? So we'll criticize him because he can take it. Because he is not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector who will keep Duke strong until the 40-0 reinforcements arrive next year.

Kedsy
11-19-2015, 01:31 AM
Easy, there. Easy. Say to yourself, "RSCI is prologue, not destiny." You'll get used to it, and the game will still be a lot of fun.

have fun,
Sage

I hear you, but I have no idea what this has to do with the post you quoted.

eddiehaskell
11-19-2015, 02:39 AM
The RSCI is a composite of all the major recruiting services, including Rivals, Scout, and ESPN. Chase wasn't a top ten recruit.I agree. As I said, he may have slipped some but I see that as late as summer '15, VC, Scout, Rivals and ESPN have him in the top 10. Obviously, who ever compiles the rankings saw something there and so did all the schools that heavily recruited him and offered a scholarship. Did he really regress that much in a few months?

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/chase-jeter

I also take issue with a composite average being the final word on where a player ranks...why should I value the composite more than the ranking of my choosing?

I planned on dissecting your argument, but let's cut to the chase (no pun intended)...

Let's look at this year's RSCI recruits in the 10-20 range

#10 Zimmerman - 13.5 ppg/9.5 rpg
#11 Briscoe - 11.5 ppg/7.5 rpg
#12 Trier - 15.0 ppg/4.0 rpg
#13 Thornton - Duke's new starting PG?
#14 Jeter - 3.3 ppg/3.0 rpg shooting 33% as a big
#15 Blakeney - 18.0 ppg/6.5 rpg
#16 Swanigan - 12.5 ppg/12.0 rpg
#16 Bacon - 25.0 ppg/8.5 rpg
#18 Smith - ACL injury
#19 Brunson - 10.5 ppg/5 apg
#20 Adams - 4.0 ppg/2 rpg

So are players in the teens really crap shoots? All but one of the 10 players I listed are having good seasons. Seems that for a lot of teams landing a player ranked as high as #11 in a poll is a HUGE accomplishment that should produce results.



If Chase has the same first freshman/sophomore seasons as Ryan Kelly, but also the same junior/senior seasons (without the injuries, of course), frankly I'll be thrilled.I like Ryan, but *thrilled* about 6.6 ppg/3.7 ppg as a soph? Check out the seasons those ranked 10-20 on RSCI are having thus far as freshmen.

Heck, lets even look down the list at a few centers ranked #25 and #26. Thomas Bryant ranked #25 is going for 11.5 ppg/7.5 rpg at Indiana and Deyonta Davis is going for 8.5 ppg/8.5 rpg at Michigan St. Just about every player in the top 25 is statistically having a good season (aside from Chase and a couple others).




Do you really think Grayson missed all those shots on his own, without any help from UK's defenders? Kentucky keyed on Grayson and Brandon and they successfully kept them from scoring. If Grayson hadn't played, and they could have reallocated those defensive resources, I'm fairly confident it would have gone worse for Duke than it did.Of course the defenders helped - without them Grayson would have nothing to run into. Grayson played like a one dimensional player who's only offensive strategy was to run inside and go over defenders with NBA length. Perhaps that is his game at this point, but after a few of those get sent back, it's time for him or the staff to get the hint. I'd rather see dump downs to MP3/Amile, screens for Matt or iso for Thronton.

TruBlu
11-19-2015, 06:20 AM
Draft Express breakdown of the players last night -

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/What-Did-We-Learn-from-the-Champions-Classic-Part-1-Kentucky-vs-Duke-5327


Harsh words regarding Grayson but nothing I could disagree with. Bolting to the hole against Wisconsin worked great largely because they had no shot blockers and weren't as quick. Kentucky on the other hand had the length and quickness to stifle those barreling drives. Grayson is going find himself having very difficult games in the future if Duke isn't able to put a distributor on the floor.


Also, Grayson's contribution against Wisconsin was unexpected, and probably not in Wisconsin's game preparations. Teams this year will be expecting and preparing for his signature move. GOAT will assist Allen "Let's Go" Grayson in recognizing this and help him adapt.

Furniture
11-19-2015, 07:38 AM
Maybe Kentucky saw that our offense was a bit of a one trick pony from our first games and they had a game plan for Grayson. If my memory serves me correctly every time Grayson drove two or three KU guys moved into block.
I suppose as the games progress K will be working with Grayson and the rest of the offense on some offensive diversity!!

Indoor66
11-19-2015, 08:39 AM
Maybe Kentucky saw that our offense was a bit of a one trick pony from our first games and they had a game plan for Grayson. If my memory serves me correctly every time Grayson drove two or three KU guys moved into block.
I suppose as the games progress K will be working with Grayson and the rest of the offense on some offensive diversity!!

Bingo. I'll bet big money that the guys on the bench wearing the dark suits also noticed what happened to Grayson when he drove the ball into traffic. Maybe there was a teaching tape to be made from that? We all run our own races. In between the races the trainers work their magic. Let us have some degree of patience (though that tends to be a rare commodity on this board).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-19-2015, 08:44 AM
Also, Grayson's contribution against Wisconsin was unexpected, and probably not in Wisconsin's game preparations. Teams this year will be expecting and preparing for his signature move. GOAT will assist Allen "Let's Go" Grayson in recognizing this and help him adapt.

This can't be overstated. Grayson's heroics against Wisconsin are akin to MP3's game against Kentucky; when a team has no idea that you are going to play meaningful minutes, it's a lot easier to catch them looking surprised.

Grayson's going to have much better games than he had the other night, but he will definitely have to change his style of play to account for teams with long arms collapsing on his every time he takes it to the right side of the rim.

whereinthehellami
11-19-2015, 09:04 AM
Grayson's going to have much better games than he had the other night, but he will definitely have to change his style of play to account for teams with long arms collapsing on his every time he takes it to the right side of the rim.

I agree with all of the above but he did have a couple that could have fallen. Who knows what would have happened if those shots went down. Allen strikes me as someone who feeds off playing well and when things go south his play suffers as well. He needs to mature in this area.

Basketball is a game of angles. I think he can still be effective with driving hard and being one speed but against teams with length he needs to adjust the angles. can he effectively hit these kinds of shots if they harder by a degree or two? and should he even try?

MCFinARL
11-19-2015, 09:13 AM
I agree with all of the above but he did have a couple that could have fallen. Who knows what would have happened if those shots went down. Allen strikes me as someone who feeds off playing well and when things go south his play suffers as well. He needs to mature in this area.

Basketball is a game of angles. I think he can still be effective with driving hard and being one speed but against teams with length he needs to adjust the angles. can he effectively hit these kinds of shots if they harder by a degree or two? and should he even try?

Yes--of course most of us (those who have no direct access to the team or players) are speculating when we make this kind of judgment, but Allen's weak performance at the free throw line, where he had been close to automatic earlier and the size and style of the defenders are not an issue, suggests you are right.

COYS
11-19-2015, 11:17 AM
I like Ryan, but *thrilled* about 6.6 ppg/3.7 ppg as a soph? Check out the seasons those ranked 10-20 on RSCI are having thus far as freshmen.



Context matters, too, though. Very few schools . . . VERY FEW . . . have multiple recruits that play the same position on the roster at the same time that are rated in the teens or higher on the RSCI. Duke is one of those schools (as is UK). Freshman Ryan played behind senior Brian, senior Lance, and two future first round picks in Mason and Miles. Sophomore Ryan played behind Mason and Miles plus senior top 10 RSCI Kyle who spent more time in 2011 at PF. His pedestrian numbers were more the result of limited court time because he was surrounded by equally or even higher touted and more experienced players. When it became time for Ryan to step up, he was immediately one of our very best offensive players. I actually think he was underutilized a bit prior to his senior year. Put Ryan (or Chase) on a team that needed him to play from day one and he would probably have put up numbers comparable to those other recruits you mentioned. A straight comparison without context isn't fair.

In addition, not every season's recruiting classes are the same in overall skill level and depth. We've mentioned this before, but the 2015 class is viewed as particularly weak. Thus, the #13 RSCI player in this class might have been the 25th best player or worse in another year. Chase is playing behind the trio of senior Amile (#21 RSCI in a stronger year and now a senior), redshirt senior Marshall (#61 RSCI but now in his 5th year in the program), and #3 RSCI Brandon Ingram (who spends some time at PF). That's just life at Duke. Kedsy has been over this before, but freshman outside the RSCI top 10 only occasionally play major minutes and, if they do, it tends to be at the wing or guard position, where Duke usually needs more depth because K's teams in recent seasons have trended toward playing smaller. So yes, Jon, Rasheed, and Justise played tons of minutes as freshman and contributed right away. But big men at Duke rated in Chase's range have generally taken more time to earn lots of minutes unless there were simply no other options. I love Chase. I think he has a lot of ability. He's mobile and reasonably athletic. He shows promise of developing some nice skills on the offensive end. And he plays with a ton of energy. But he's also extremely young (many guys stay back a year and are old for their class whereas Chase is actually young for his class) and just needs some time. Having a bad game as an 18 year old freshman playing for the third time against real college competition (and in this case against an NBA caliber front line) is hardly cause for concern, in my opinion.

NSDukeFan
11-19-2015, 11:49 AM
Strongly hoping that Grayson will be able to show more repertoire and not end up with an Austin Rivers-esque season of quick moves to the basket followed by consistent rejection when there are capable rim protectors.


Why so down on Austin Rivers? He was the best player on a top 10 Kenpom offense. If we can say that about Grayson Allen this season, we'll be in pretty good shape.
I would be very pleased if Grayson had a first team all-ACC season this year, even if his shot gets blocked every once in a while against top frontlines.

Maybe Kentucky saw that our offense was a bit of a one trick pony from our first games and they had a game plan for Grayson. If my memory serves me correctly every time Grayson drove two or three KU guys moved into block.
I suppose as the games progress K will be working with Grayson and the rest of the offense on some offensive diversity!!
It may have felt (especially to Grayson) that there were an awful lot of defenders in front of him, but I don't think any Kansas guys stopped him. They waited for the next game. 😉
I hope COYS' post is in time to stop the 2 cupcake sample size outrage, or maybe that's just me.

jcastranio
11-19-2015, 01:39 PM
I realize the UK won, but the game could have gone the other way.

The 3 veterans played great (MPIII, Amile, Matt). I could not have been more pleased.

The two "stars" we have (Grayson, Brandon) did not. This is the primary reason we didn't win - we needed something strong out of at one of them.

That said, it is not any kind of "lost" cause or anything. With Grayson, it was not a matter of he doesn't have elite talent and UK "exposed" him. It is a matter of his decision-making. He has a nice 3 point stroke, a nice mid-range game, and a strong driving/slashing game. He consistently made the wrong choice for the situation. He was still easily beating his man and getting into the lane. Most times, in trying to avoid being blocked, he also avoided being fouled. He'll learn. Against bigger opponents, find the opponent's body, draw the foul, then shoot. Beat your man, then stop and pop a mid-range shot or a floater. If they send more than one shot-blocker at use, know where you are going to dish the ball. Grayson shows an enormous amount of talent (we don't have anyone else on the team who can do what he does)>

Brandon seemed to get taken out of his game early with fouls (so did the UK big man, but he was replaced by others - we don't have a replacement for Ingram's skill set). Yet the potential (even this year with more strength and conditioning to come) is there.

Derryck, Chase, and Luke all showed they could hang with big time college basketball - they are just not ready to take over and lead yet. They did fine for freshmen in their first big game.

We had some bad turnovers (fixable) and UK took advantage. We haven't worked out the transition defense (which players ensure that there are no easy breaks and which players look to the offensive board.). We just did not have that figured out. That's okay. Last year's team played awesome defense in the NCAA tournament - but it took about 28 games to really figure out. This year will be no different - except that the potential for better defense in the end exists this year with these players.

Looking forward to the season and a good shot at a Final Four (Championships are harder to predict).

Steven43
11-19-2015, 03:25 PM
With Grayson, it was not a matter of he doesn't have elite talent and UK "exposed" him. It is a matter of his decision-making. He has a nice 3 point stroke, a nice mid-range game, and a strong driving/slashing game. He consistently made the wrong choice for the situation.

Hmm, well, I guess we just see Allen a bit differently. I see a short shooting guard (relative to NBA height) who does not seem to be able to dribble well with his left hand, does not appear to be able to attack the basket from his left side, has a decent but not great 3-point shot, and does not pass particularly well. And I haven't seen this mid-range game of which you speak. This is all good news for Duke, as they should have him for four years.

flyingdutchdevil
11-19-2015, 03:45 PM
Hmm, well, I guess we just see Allen a bit differently. I see a short shooting guard (relative to NBA height) who does not seem to be able to dribble well with his left hand, does not appear to be able to attack the basket from his left side, has a decent but not great 3-point shot, and does not pass particularly well. And I haven't seen this mid-range game of which you speak. This is all good news for Duke, as they should have him for four years.

I'd say Grayson is probably closer to this right now. The emphasis on 'right now'. Grayson is very athletic for college and will probably be in the 50% for the NBA, which is more than enough. He wasn't "exposed" in one game against the best defensive team in the country; rather, he had a bad game with a bad strategy that didn't work. Now, if he continues to drive, gets blocked, or loses control, then yes, I would agree that his gameplan isn't ready (and may never be). But a lot of posters have discussed how one game against Kentucky means that Grayson is a four year player. I laugh at this because, if anything, Grayson has the potential to go early, and the NBA would have probably seen enough to give him a shot.

These next two games will be very interesting to understand where Grayson is. The Kentucky game was his only "bad" game where Grayson has played significant minutes. Let's see how VCU and Wisconsin/Georgetown react.

Lar77
11-19-2015, 03:52 PM
Hmm, well, I guess we just see Allen a bit differently. I see a short shooting guard (relative to NBA height) who does not seem to be able to dribble well with his left hand, does not appear to be able to attack the basket from his left side, has a decent but not great 3-point shot, and does not pass particularly well. And I haven't seen this mid-range game of which you speak. This is all good news for Duke, as they should have him for four years.

I'm obviously of a different opinion. I enjoy Grayson's play [I]as a college player.[I] And I don't care about his pro prospects at this point in his career. He has played significant minutes in how many D1 games? How many of those games was he expected to have a major role?

He is an exciting player to watch on this team. It is November.

I go back to K's assessment. He has talent. He has some habits that need to be changed.

Let's see in March.

Steven43
11-19-2015, 05:55 PM
I'm obviously of a different opinion. I enjoy Grayson's play [I]as a college player.[I] And I don't care about his pro prospects at this point in his career. He has played significant minutes in how many D1 games? How many of those games was he expected to have a major role?

He is an exciting player to watch on this team. It is November.

I go back to K's assessment. He has talent. He has some habits that need to be changed.

Let's see in March.

Please tell me you did not just compare Grayson Allen to Charles Barkley height-wise. Charles Barkley was one of the greatest athletes in the history of basketball. His height, or relative lack thereof, has no relation to Grayson Allen, or any other short-for-their-position player, as Barkley was a complete freak of nature. The usual rules did not apply to him.

CDu
11-19-2015, 06:10 PM
I will not speculate with any confidence on whether Allen will be ready/well-advised to go pro prior to his senior year. I will say that, based on what we've seen of him thus far, I don't think he has a game well suited for the NBA right now. I don't know whether that is because he just hasn't HAD to show it yet or because he hasn't really developed it yet (I suspect the latter, but can't say for sure obviously), but to this point we've seen essentially one move (hard drive to his right, finish at the rim if possible). Against teams that (a) aren't good enough to defend or (b) hadn't scouted him or (c) both a and b, he has feasted. Against the one opponent with a gameplan for him and the talent to execute it, he looked lost.

Hopefully he still has some fancy moves/skills in his holster that he just hasn't used. But my suspicion is that a simpler answer is correct here: he's been so much more athletic than his comp for most of his life that he hasn't yet developed other moves. This isn't uncommon in highly athletic players: they can outathlete their opponent so they don't always have the creative arsenal of skills when the reach college. So he's probably a little raw in terms of a nuanced game. Good set shooter, good finisher at the rim if he can get there, but not a lot of guile to his game yet.

Again, hopefully I'm wrong on that. But if not, hopefully he's a quick study this year and can figure out some new tricks to allow himself to be a go-to guy.

Li_Duke
11-20-2015, 10:42 AM
I realize the UK won, but the game could have gone the other way.

The 3 veterans played great (MPIII, Amile, Matt). I could not have been more pleased.


Thanks for your post. I completely agree with this. We knew going into the season that we were young. Our hopes were that over the course of the season, our upperclassmen would grow to be great role players and that our underclassmen (Grayson + freshmen) would grow to provide some stars. The Kentucky game showed us that the upperclassmen are already great role players. I'll be ecstatic if Marshall, Amile, and Matt can do what they did all season long. The underclassmen aren't yet ready, but it is only 3 games in. We've seen that each of them (Grayson, Brandon, Derryck, Luke, Chase) all have the potential to become studs. Like I tell my wife with our 1 year old learning to walk; don't get impatient, let's just sit back and enjoy the process.

Lar77
11-20-2015, 11:23 AM
Please tell me you did not just compare Grayson Allen to Charles Barkley height-wise. Charles Barkley was one of the greatest athletes in the history of basketball. His height, or relative lack thereof, has no relation to Grayson Allen, or any other short-for-their-position player, as Barkley was a complete freak of nature. The usual rules did not apply to him.

You missed my point entirely. By the way, most, if not all, NBA players are "freaks of nature," depending on your definition of "freak."

Obviously, Grayson Allen is not "NBA ready" today, November 20th. Neither is anyone else on our team. One could argue that only two Duke freshman in the past 5 years were "NBA ready" in November/December. But all of our players are ACC ready, even today. As a team, we have an opportunity to compete for an ACC title, maybe even a national title. I don't think any BC or Clemson or GT fan would say that today.

Yes, we will lose. Kentucky beat us. We've got 3 other top 25 teams (Georgetown might not be) between now and Christmas. We may lose to one, two, or all three. Are you going to give up on this team if we do?

As Gene Hackman's character, Norman Dale, said in Hoosiers, "this is your team." Support who they are, not who they are not.

CDu
11-20-2015, 04:12 PM
Yes, we will lose. Kentucky beat us. We've got 3 other top 25 teams (Georgetown might not be) between now and Christmas. We may lose to one, two, or all three. Are you going to give up on this team if we do?

Actually, we have just two ranked teams left between now and Christmas. Neither Wisconsin nor Georgetown are ranked, nor should they be. And one of those two ranked teams (Utah) could be unranked by the time we play them, as they play Miami (they should win this one), BYU, and Wichita State before facing us.

I will be surprised and disappointed if we have 3 losses by Christmas. But even that wouldn't mean too much long-term.

sagegrouse
11-20-2015, 07:00 PM
Hmm, well, I guess we just see Allen a bit differently. I see a short shooting guard (relative to NBA height) who does not seem to be able to dribble well with his left hand, does not appear to be able to attack the basket from his left side, has a decent but not great 3-point shot, and does not pass particularly well. And I haven't seen this mid-range game of which you speak. This is all good news for Duke, as they should have him for four years.

Maybe you have tape measure (or cinder-black metrics in hand), but Grayson is listed as taller than JJ Redick was, and JJ's wing span was in the penguin or T-Rex range. Exactly why is Grayson too short for an NBA shooting guard? Moreover, he appears to be all muscle and very strong, which certainly counts for something in the NBA.

Now, as to your conclusion: Grayson at Duke for four years -- works for me!

eddiehaskell
11-20-2015, 10:20 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Grayson won some dunk contest for college players, right? Athletically, he appears to be on another level compared to JJ.

uh_no
11-20-2015, 11:22 PM
Should note that this game gave kentucky the walton belt for the time being :(

Furniture
11-20-2015, 11:23 PM
Next play. Time to move on....

Skitzle
11-21-2015, 05:08 PM
Just a quick note. Duke lost the game to UK yes, but there were 5 announcers Reese, Seth, Jay, Jay, and Dan. Duke is winning 2-0 :)