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View Full Version : MBB: Duke vs. Kentucky (Nov 17, 7:30 pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-14-2015, 10:03 PM
Duke (#4/#5) and Kentucky (#1/#2) square off in Chicago's United Center on Tuesday, November 17th at 7:30 pm ET on ESPN. And, no, this is not about barbecue.

Much more to come on this game over the next couple of days.

weezie
11-14-2015, 10:04 PM
Holy moly, I'm clearing my busy social calendar.

JNort
11-14-2015, 10:37 PM
So to me the biggest question is this... how are minutes going to be distributed and how big/small do we play?

blynch923
11-14-2015, 11:03 PM
Tuesday will definitely be a good test to see if Grayson can live up to all of the hype

OldPhiKap
11-15-2015, 12:05 AM
Good early measuring stick. Although, either way, says little about where we will be in March. This team is so young/inexperienced it is amazing. Enjoy the ride, regardless of the result. Will be a fun journey.

Tripping William
11-15-2015, 09:46 AM
Tuesday will definitely be a good test to see if Grayson can live up to all of the hype

Hopefully the post-game thread will be a nice discussion of Allen & Sons. :o

Olympic Fan
11-15-2015, 03:42 PM
Ugh ... Allen and Sons is the just about the worst 'que in the Triangle. Horribly overrated and overpriced. Only in Chapel Hill could that dump be considered good 'que.

As for Duke-Kentucky on the basketball court ... FWIW, Pomeroy rates it a 50 percent game, but projects a 77-76 Duke win. I'd take it.

No. 1 Duke and No. 2 Kentucky are his two top teams early.

jimsumner
11-15-2015, 03:46 PM
Ugh ... Allen and Sons is the just about the worst 'que in the Triangle. Horribly overrated and overpriced. Only in Chapel Hill could that dump be considered good 'que.

As for Duke-Kentucky on the basketball court ... FWIW, Pomeroy rates it a 50 percent game, but projects a 77-76 Duke win. I'd take it.

No. 1 Duke and No. 2 Kentucky are his two top teams early.

I thought it a sly reference to Grayson Allen's last name not a barbeque joint.

Then again, I don't partake of 'que, so what do I know?

DavidBenAkiva
11-15-2015, 04:04 PM
To be completely honest, I haven't seen Kentucky play at all this year. That being said, let's take a look at how this matchup of top programs shapes up.

For the first time in a long time, Kentucky is going into a game with a size and maybe even a talent deficiency. The starting lineups, based on the first couple of games should be as follows:

Kentucky:

G 5'9" So. Tyler Ulis
G 6'5" Fr. Jamal Murray
F 6'9" Jr. Derek Willis
F 6'9" Jr. Marcus Lee
F 6'11" Fr. Skal Labissiere

Reserves:
G: 6'0" Jr. Dominique Hawkins, 6'3" Fr Isaiah Briscoe, 6'6" Fr. Charles Matthews, 6'8" Sr. Alex Poythress, and 7'0" Fr. Isaac Humphries

I'll refrain from posting Duke's starting lineup as we all should know it. We've got 2 6'5" guards and a frontline of 6'9", 6'9", and 7'0".

That team features 5 McDonald's All-Americans as well as highly talented Canadian Jamal Murray. Murray has featured an all around game with scoring, rebounds, and assists. As a team, Kentucky has not shot the ball well from deep, shooting just 28.9% from 3 point range. The only player that has been on target so far has been the Junior Willis, who is 5 of 9 so far on the young season. While underweight, the frontcourt is athletic and features very different sets of skills. The freshman Labissiere has featured a variety of offensive weapons in the post and touch on his jump shot out to midrange. His defense, from what I've read, has been less than impressive and he has averaged a mediocre 5 rebounds against smaller teams so far this year. The "forgotten" member of the "greatest recruiting class of all time," Marcus Less has shown some ability to translate his exceptional athleticism in to production so far. He's not an offensive threat, but he has averaged a very impressive 6 offensive rebounds and 3 blocks in two games. Frehsman Isaiah Briscoe has not started in his one game played so far, but he did have a very impressive double-double of 11 points and 12 rebounds against NJIT on Saturday night. Senior Alex Poythress, recovering from an ACL tear last year, has been the 7th man in the rotation for Coach John Calipari so far and has shown that he may regain his ability to contribute in nearly all facets of the game. He has not shown an improved shooting ability. All in all, the team is going 5 deep with a pair of one-and-done stars in Murray and Labissiere and a potential third with Briscoe. If the team doesn't shoot well from three, Kentucky may be in for a tough challenge against other high quality teams.

Meanwhile, Duke is trotting out a lineup featuring experience and talent with 5 McDonald's All-American starters, each as tall or taller than their counterpart. There's another two All-Americans on the bench in the form of Luke Kennard and Chase Jeter with another player, Derryck Thornton, considered as talented as nearly any other player on the team. While Duke has been knocked for being 'alarmingly unathletic' in the past (looking at Doug Gotlieb), this Duke team features some very quick and fast players such as Grayson Allen, Brandon Ingram, and Thornton. Duke has also featured a variety of shooters, dialing it in at 37.3% accuracy from 3 point range. That's pretty impressive considering a tough 1-9 shooting performance from Ingram in the home opener. Duke doesn't feature a "pure" point guard but has relied instead on dribble penetration and sound passing from guards and forward. Facing a tougher defensive presence will show how much the team can handle pressure on the guards.

On a more existential note, I wonder if this game and this season might serve as an opportunity for Duke to supplant Kentucky as the "it" program in college basketball. There are a few players on the current UK roster that have not lived up the potential hoped for by the Big Blue Nation. Poythress and Lee haven't developed reliable buzz to suggest they might find their way into an NBA rotation. Add those two to a surprisingly growing list of NBA duds out of the program (Aaron and Andrew Harrison, Dakari Johnson, Doron Lamb, DeAndre Liggins, Archie Goodwin, Daniel Orton, Marquis Teague, and James Young have failed to be drafted or make much of an impact in the NBA to date), and the anti-recruiting pitch grows louder. Sure, the program has seen more than its share of stars with Anthony Davis, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, and potentially Karl-Anthony Towns and Eric Bledsoe. It's hard to ignore the growing list of guys that don't get to live their dreams as an NBA star. Worse still, they haven't spent anywhere near enough time in college to prepare them for a comfortable future. Duke, on the other hand, has put almost as many guys into the NBA as Kentucky since John Calipari arrived in Lexington and has two NCAA championships and a growing list of solid or even star NBA players to boast, such as Kyrie Irving, Jahlil Okafor, Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, and Mason Plumlee. There's not as many top-end talent there - yet. Hardly any player that has left Duke has been much of a bust in the NBA for a good long while. Miles Plumlee has had limited success and might yet crack the rotation in Milwaukee this year. Nolan Smith didn't last in the Association after getting drafted in the 2011 first round. That's it, really. Even Austin Rivers has demonstrated his ability to join his father's rotation. And just as many guys - Lance Thomas, Seth Curry, and others - have made it onto NBA rosters after going undrafted. They did so with a degree in hand from Duke, too. Not too shabby.

Back to the game at hand. This should be an interesting matchup featuring a pair of talented teams with questions about their upcoming season. I am looking forward to Tuesday night in Chicago!

devildeac
11-15-2015, 05:22 PM
I thought it a sly reference to Grayson Allen's last name not a barbeque joint.

Then again, I don't partake of 'que, so what do I know?

What the hey? No 'cue?!?!

5707

(kidding, kidding)

Troublemaker
11-15-2015, 06:10 PM
A couple things that might tip the balance towards Duke:

A 100% Matt Jones that shuts down either Ulis or Murray would go a long way towards victory. Hoping Matt can play 35 minutes on Tuesday if needed.

Kentucky's been turning the ball over at a high rate so far, and Duke looks like a team that can force turnovers this year. Likewise, Amile and Marshall might be able to out-muscle Skal and Lee on the boards. Some "extra" possessions via turnover or o-boarding could swing a close game.

Tripping William
11-15-2015, 06:34 PM
Ugh ... Allen and Sons is the just about the worst 'que in the Triangle. Horribly overrated and overpriced. Only in Chapel Hill could that dump be considered good 'que.

As for Duke-Kentucky on the basketball court ... FWIW, Pomeroy rates it a 50 percent game, but projects a 77-76 Duke win. I'd take it.

No. 1 Duke and No. 2 Kentucky are his two top teams early.

I know of Bullock's, but the only Bullock I know played at that integrity-challenged institution at the other end of 15-501. Is there an Ingram & Sons? :D

Dukehky
11-15-2015, 10:03 PM
I know of Bullock's, but the only Bullock I know played at that integrity-challenged institution at the other end of 15-501. Is there an Ingram & Sons? :D

BULLOCK'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most overrated barbecue in North Carolina... Woodlands in blowing rock.

I hate Kentucky. I hope Marshall just ingests Skal.

Devilwin
11-16-2015, 04:54 AM
Really looking forward to this. First real test, hopefully, we'll do fine.
And, didn't know BBQ existed east of the Lexington area...

lotusland
11-16-2015, 06:21 AM
Really looking forward to this. First real test, hopefully, we'll do fine.
And, didn't know BBQ existed east of the Lexington area...

Lexington, NC right?

lotusland
11-16-2015, 06:23 AM
BULLOCK'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most overrated barbecue in North Carolina... Woodlands in blowing rock.

I hate Kentucky. I hope Marshall just ingests Skal.

I've eaten at Woodlands several times and enjoyed it well enough but I didn't know it was highly rated.

lotusland
11-16-2015, 06:25 AM
What the hey? No 'cue?!?!

5707

(kidding, kidding)

Yeah Jim Sumner's judgment now downgraded.

Troublemaker
11-16-2015, 07:56 AM
Kentucky's been turning the ball over at a high rate so far, and Duke looks like a team that can force turnovers this year. Likewise, Amile and Marshall might be able to out-muscle Skal and Lee on the boards. Some "extra" possessions via turnover or o-boarding could swing a close game.

Expanding on these thoughts a bit.

I think Duke's going to steal a win tomorrow night. I have a lot of respect for Kentucky's talent, and I would've voted them preseason #1 as well. They have a very good to great college PG in Ulis and he'll be getting the ball to two top-6 lottery picks in Skal and Murray, according to NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/2016mock_draft) and DraftExpress (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/list/). So, UK is looking fantastic at their PG and C positions, the two most important positions, with Ulis and Skal, and they additionally have a high-scoring wing in Murray, who can also play point. Duke has great wings in Grayson and Brandon, but Kentucky should receive better PG and C play this season than Duke. That's no knock on our guys, as I believe Duke's PG-by-committee and MP3/Chase platoon will function well, but it's tough to say Kentucky doesn't project to be better at those two crucial positions this season. Therefore, if Calipari does a good developing his team, they should be better than Duke in March.

But Duke is playing them tomorrow, Nov 17, not in March (at least not yet). Duke teams usually burst from the starting gate really fast and dominate in November and December, and I've seen no reason through two games to think it will be different this season. In contrast, I believe if UK coughed up 20 turnovers to Albany and 14 turnovers to NJIT, then Duke's going to be able to turn them over tomorrow night. Later on this season, UK will probably protect the ball very well since they will at times play 3 PGs together in Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe, but we might be catching them at a good time right now. Likewise, Skal is going to be a top-3 pick, but in his first encounter with muscular, experienced, high-major big men in Amile and MP3, Duke might be able to take advantage of Skal on the boards.

Finally, small sample, but Duke appears to be a more vet-centered team at this time. Kentucky's top 2 scorers and 3 of their top-4 are freshmen (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/96/kentucky-wildcats). Whereas vets make up 3 of the top-4 Duke scorers. I think being slightly more vet-centered will help in the third game of the season for both teams.

So, overall, UK may be the better team a few months from now, but Duke should be the better team tomorrow. A win over UK tomorrow is going to look great on the tournament resume once UK puts everything together. A victory tomorrow might be a victory over an eventual 1 seed and could boost Duke up a seed line in our own seeding, possibly from a 2 seed to a 1 seed ourselves. Big game.

Devilwin
11-16-2015, 08:42 AM
Lexington, NC right?

Oh yeah. World BBQ Capital. Home of the BBQ FESTIVAL!!!!!!!!!!! Beat UK!:)

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 10:13 AM
Expanding on these thoughts a bit.

I think Duke's going to steal a win tomorrow night. I have a lot of respect for Kentucky's talent, and I would've voted them preseason #1 as well. They have a very good to great college PG in Ulis and he'll be getting the ball to two top-6 lottery picks in Skal and Murray, according to NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/2016mock_draft) and DraftExpress (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/list/). So, UK is looking fantastic at their PG and C positions, the two most important positions, with Ulis and Skal, and they additionally have a high-scoring wing in Murray, who can also play point. Duke has great wings in Grayson and Brandon, but Kentucky should receive better PG and C play this season than Duke. That's no knock on our guys, as I believe Duke's PG-by-committee and MP3/Chase platoon will function well, but it's tough to say Kentucky doesn't project to be better at those two crucial positions this season. Therefore, if Calipari does a good developing his team, they should be better than Duke in March.

But Duke is playing them tomorrow, Nov 17, not in March (at least not yet). Duke teams usually burst from the starting gate really fast and dominate in November and December, and I've seen no reason through two games to think it will be different this season. In contrast, I believe if UK coughed up 20 turnovers to Albany and 14 turnovers to NJIT, then Duke's going to be able to turn them over tomorrow night. Later on this season, UK will probably protect the ball very well since they will at times play 3 PGs together in Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe, but we might be catching them at a good time right now. Likewise, Skal is going to be a top-3 pick, but in his first encounter with muscular, experienced, high-major big men in Amile and MP3, Duke might be able to take advantage of Skal on the boards.

Finally, small sample, but Duke appears to be a more vet-centered team at this time. Kentucky's top 2 scorers and 3 of their top-4 are freshmen (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/96/kentucky-wildcats). Whereas vets make up 3 of the top-4 Duke scorers. I think being slightly more vet-centered will help in the third game of the season for both teams.

So, overall, UK may be the better team a few months from now, but Duke should be the better team tomorrow. A win over UK tomorrow is going to look great on the tournament resume once UK puts everything together. A victory tomorrow might be a victory over an eventual 1 seed and could boost Duke up a seed line in our own seeding, possibly from a 2 seed to a 1 seed ourselves. Big game.

I echo everything here. One of Coach K's best attributes as a college coach is getting his players ready for November and December games. Like Troublemaker, I also believe that UK will be one of the best teams in the country come March (and they also have the most talent), but they are younger and less experienced than Duke. And I think that will absolutely help Duke's cause. Matt Jones, Amile Jefferson, and Grayson Allen all have fairly significant minutes under their belts (okay, Grayson not as much. But it feels like that!) whilst only Ulis and the perennially injured Poythress (who is the 7th man) have those minutes. And Poythress has missed so much time over the last two seasons. Furthermore, Grayson Allen may not be the highest draft pick amongst the starters (I actually think he's fifth after Skal, Murray, Briscoe, and Ingram), but he is the most-ready now with the best combination of experience, talent, and scoring-prowess. We are going to ride Grayson's offensive potential for the first half of the season, and I expect him to average nearly 20 points a game. Also, his willingness to pass will make double-teaming Grayson extremely challenging.

Can't wait for this game!

kAzE
11-16-2015, 10:30 AM
I echo everything here. One of Coach K's best attributes as a college coach is getting his players ready for November and December games. Like Troublemaker, I also believe that UK will be one of the best teams in the country come March (and they also have the most talent), but they are younger and less experienced than Duke. And I think that will absolutely help Duke's cause. Matt Jones, Amile Jefferson, and Grayson Allen all have fairly significant minutes under their belts (okay, Grayson not as much. But it feels like that!) whilst only Ulis and the perennially injured Poythress (who is the 7th man) have those minutes. And Poythress has missed so much time over the last two seasons. Furthermore, Grayson Allen may not be the highest draft pick amongst the starters (I actually think he's fifth after Skal, Murray, Briscoe, and Ingram), but he is the most-ready now with the best combination of experience, talent, and scoring-prowess. We are going to ride Grayson's offensive potential for the first half of the season, and I expect him to average nearly 20 points a game. Also, his willingness to pass will make double-teaming Grayson extremely challenging.

Can't wait for this game!

I'll throw my hat into the Duke ring as well. I think Grayson Allen's penchant for getting in the paint and drawing fouls is SUCH a huge advantage for our team this year with the new rules. He's basically single handedly put Duke in the bonus with like 10:00 to go in every half we've played thus far. He's the James Harden of college basketball right now, and I don't see him slowing down as long as he stays healthy (knock on wood). If he can manage to get Skal in early foul trouble, I think we win comfortably. They rely on him quite heavily for offense and rim protection, and I think he and Grayson will have more than a few meetings at the rim on Tuesday. I like Grayson in that match up, at least in November. He's got the refs on his side right now.

I also agree that Matt Jones should be matched up on Murray and he will destroy the freshman, who is shooting a measly 39% against inferior competition. With an elite defender in his face, I don't think he's likely to improve much upon that in the next game.

It will be interesting to see who they use to guard Ingram. I thought it would probably be Poythress, but he's been a lesser part of the rotation thus far, perhaps still recovering from his injuries. If it's Willis, I think Ingram will have a huge game, and he should also shut down Willis on the defensive end.

We are deeper and more experienced, and just as talented. Unlike their veterans (really only Ulis has gotten big minutes in the past, although Lee and Poythress have both been around for longer), ours are a big part of the offensive and defensive gameplan, and they are national champions. We should be the betting favorite.

ricks68
11-16-2015, 10:38 AM
Ugh ... Allen and Sons is the just about the worst 'que in the Triangle. Horribly overrated and overpriced. Only in Chapel Hill could that dump be considered good 'que.

As usual, have to seriously agree with OF again. Absolutely terrible BBQ.

ricks

MCFinARL
11-16-2015, 10:42 AM
I thought it a sly reference to Grayson Allen's last name not a barbeque joint.

Then again, I don't partake of 'que, so what do I know?

It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax! (possibly I am the only person old enough to get my own joke here; if so, apologies :o)

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 10:47 AM
With the hand check rule change being so strongly enforced to start the year (as in, keep your hands off of drivers), I am extremely concerned over how we are going to keep Ulis out of the lane. He is the definition of a "waterbug", a lightning-quick, shifty, skittish blur who fakes and feints his way past you in a blink. Ulis gets into the lane and can launch a floater, throw a lob to Skal or Lee (this is really what Lee specializes in) or kick to Murray. As we have been discussing on the game threads, the defense is a work in progress and I really don't have faith in our ability to rotate quickly enough to thwart Ulis' options if we gets into the lane.

As a result, I hope to see K really mix up the defenses to keep Ulis and Kentucky guessing. Ulis shouldn't be able to throw it over the defense so those looks with Ingram at the top of the 1-3-1 may be a bit confounding. Naturally, Kentucky has the tape of our games so I am sure they will have a bunch of counters. We also have to limit their transition game. If they're shooting is as subpar as some have posted, they are going to be trying to run to get easy buckets.

Murray is a huge X-factor. I first saw him in the Nike Hoops Summit where he led the World Team (also featuring Skal) to a W against a US squad with Brandon, Chase and Luke (plus his future Kentucky teammate Briscoe)
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25145366/world-team-beats-usa-in-nike-hoop-summit-behind-murrays-30

During the game, which was played right after we won the title and figured Tyus was leaving, many of us on DBR were posting "Who is this kid, Murray?" "Are we recruiting him?" "WHY AREN'T WE RECRUTING HIM!?!" Shortly thereafter, before the Derryck recruitment/reclassify happened, Duke did briefly get involved. Remember, the staff was trying to finish up the Brandon recruitment and needed to fill the hole at PG to try and seal the deal. But I digress...

Once he was on my radar, I followed as he played for Team Cananda against grown men in the Pan Am games and led them to the Gold Medal game where they lost and took home Silver:
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/07/24/canadas-jamal-murray-shines-on-big-stage
He led a comeback over a mark Few-coached US team in the semis that included Ron Baker, Malcolm Brogdon, Melo Trimble and other older US guys playing in Europe.

I only say all this about Murray because I believe, including Skal and our guys, that he is the best player in the game tomorrow and think that he has the juice to win it "by himself" as much as that ever happens in a basketball game.

So, I worry about Ulis getting in the lane and running the break and causing havok and I worry about Murray in general.

(note - after posting this I saw kAzE's post about Murray - I hope you are right and I am wrong!)

Kedsy
11-16-2015, 11:14 AM
I am extremely concerned over how we are going to keep Ulis out of the lane.

This will be a good test for Derryck. We'll see if he really is the shut-the-ball-down, one-on-one defender that we hope he is. The other good news is, if Ulis gets by Derryck, the guys who'll need to rotate are our senior bigs, who seem to know the defense pretty well by now. I also agree with you that mixing in various zone looks could keep Ulis off-balance. Hope so, anyway.

OldPhiKap
11-16-2015, 11:19 AM
It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax! (possibly I am the only person old enough to get my own joke here; if so, apologies :o)

Ahh. Chevy, Danny and Jane. Remember it well.

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 11:23 AM
This will be a good test for Derryck. We'll see if he really is the shut-the-ball-down, one-on-one defender that we hope he is. The other good news is, if Ulis gets by Derryck, the guys who'll need to rotate are our senior bigs, who seem to know the defense pretty well by now. I also agree with you that mixing in various zone looks could keep Ulis off-balance. Hope so, anyway.

Yes, I was thinking about Derryck, too, and thinking it could either be a "dare to be great" situation or an undressing on the biggest possible stage. I feel like K will limit his downside on the later. Do we think Jones or Allen gets that assignment to start the game? Do you think there is any chance he challenges Ingram to stay in front of him by laying off and daring him to beat us from outside, literally trying to swallow him up in those arms? It would be fun to see that match-up for a few possessions.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 11:29 AM
With the hand check rule change being so strongly enforced to start the year (as in, keep your hands off of drivers), I am extremely concerned over how we are going to keep Ulis out of the lane. He is the definition of a "waterbug", a lightning-quick, shifty, skittish blur who fakes and feints his way past you in a blink. Ulis gets into the lane and can launch a floater, throw a lob to Skal or Lee (this is really what Lee specializes in) or kick to Murray. As we have been discussing on the game threads, the defense is a work in progress and I really don't have faith in our ability to rotate quickly enough to thwart Ulis' options if we gets into the lane.

As a result, I hope to see K really mix up the defenses to keep Ulis and Kentucky guessing. Ulis shouldn't be able to throw it over the defense so those looks with Ingram at the top of the 1-3-1 may be a bit confounding. Naturally, Kentucky has the tape of our games so I am sure they will have a bunch of counters. We also have to limit their transition game. If they're shooting is as subpar as some have posted, they are going to be trying to run to get easy buckets.

Murray is a huge X-factor. I first saw him in the Nike Hoops Summit where he led the World Team (also featuring Skal) to a W against a US squad with Brandon, Chase and Luke (plus his future Kentucky teammate Briscoe)
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25145366/world-team-beats-usa-in-nike-hoop-summit-behind-murrays-30

During the game, which was played right after we won the title and figured Tyus was leaving, many of us on DBR were posting "Who is this kid, Murray?" "Are we recruiting him?" "WHY AREN'T WE RECRUTING HIM!?!" Shortly thereafter, before the Derryck recruitment/reclassify happened, Duke did briefly get involved. Remember, the staff was trying to finish up the Brandon recruitment and needed to fill the hole at PG to try and seal the deal. But I digress...

Once he was on my radar, I followed as he played for Team Cananda against grown men in the Pan Am games and led them to the Gold Medal game where they lost and took home Silver:
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/07/24/canadas-jamal-murray-shines-on-big-stage
He led a comeback over a mark Few-coached US team in the semis that included Ron Baker, Malcolm Brogdon, Melo Trimble and other older US guys playing in Europe.

I only say all this about Murray because I believe, including Skal and our guys, that he is the best player in the game tomorrow and think that he has the juice to win it "by himself" as much as that ever happens in a basketball game.

So, I worry about Ulis getting in the lane and running the break and causing havok and I worry about Murray in general.

(note - after posting this I saw kAzE's post about Murray - I hope you are right and I am wrong!)

Billy - I too believe that, at the end of the day, Murray will be the best talent on the floor. But, fortunately, it is the beginning of the day, and Murray is a young freshman who is given the green light to shoot whenever he wants. And this is not a good thing given that a combination of Matt Jones and Ingram will be on Murray the whole game. As Kaze stated, against inferior competition, Murray's stats are merely "okay": 39% (20% on threes), 4 TOs a game, lack of ability to get to the line (he's taken 2 FTs in two games). That said, Murray is the kind of play that can just "go off". But I think Matt Jones - with potentially Ingram (and the more I think about it the more Ingram makes sense) - can absolutely get the job done.

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 11:30 AM
Billy - I too believe that, at the end of the day, Murray will be the best talent on the floor. But, fortunately, it is the beginning of the day, and Murray is a young freshman who is given the green light to shoot whenever he wants. And this is not a good thing given that a combination of Matt Jones and Ingram will be on Murray the whole game. As Kaze stated, against inferior competition, Murray's stats are merely "okay": 39% (20% on threes), 4 TOs a game, lack of ability to get to the line (he's taken 2 FTs in two games). That said, Murray is the kind of play that can just "go off". But I think Matt Jones - with potentially Ingram (and the more I think about it the more Ingram makes sense) - can absolutely get the job done.

I hope you are right!

COYS
11-16-2015, 11:38 AM
Yes, I was thinking about Derryck, too, and thinking it could either be a "dare to be great" situation or an undressing on the biggest possible stage. I feel like K will limit his downside on the later. Do we think Jones or Allen gets that assignment to start the game? Do you think there is any chance he challenges Ingram to stay in front of him by laying off and daring him to beat us from outside, literally trying to swallow him up in those arms? It would be fun to see that match-up for a few possessions.

While Derryck's play has had it's rough moments, I feel that the one thing he has done well so far is play on the ball defense. Granted, he hasn't had to face anyone as good as Ullis or Murray yet, but in strict one-on-one matchups, he has rarely been beaten and even when he has, his recovery speed has been fantastic. That being said, he has lost his man off the ball on a number of occasions and has not dealt with screens particularly well. If Ullis is the primary ball-handler, I think we will need to use Derryck a good amount as Matt (a strong 6-5 and a savvy defender) seems a better matchup with Murray while we will want Grayson to save some energy for offense. Assuming we see more man to man tomorrow night (and with K's current unpredictable defensive strategies, it's not certain that we will), I just don't see any way that we don't see extensive minutes for Derryck. Hopefully he's up to the challenge and Calipari doesn't have any creative screen and roll plays to throw at him.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 11:43 AM
While Derryck's play has had it's rough moments, I feel that the one thing he has done well so far is play on the ball defense. Granted, he hasn't had to face anyone as good as Ullis or Murray yet, but in strict one-on-one matchups, he has rarely been beaten and even when he has, his recovery speed has been fantastic. That being said, he has lost his man off the ball on a number of occasions and has not dealt with screens particularly well. If Ullis is the primary ball-handler, I think we will need to use Derryck a good amount as Matt (a strong 6-5 and a savvy defender) seems a better matchup with Murray while we will want Grayson to save some energy for offense. Assuming we see more man to man tomorrow night (and with K's current unpredictable defensive strategies, it's not certain that we will), I just don't see any way that we don't see extensive minutes for Derryck. Hopefully he's up to the challenge and Calipari doesn't have any creative screen and roll plays to throw at him.

I know it just makes sense for M Jones to get on Murray and Ingram on Willis (their respective heights are literally identical, including similarities in weight), but I wouldn't be surprised to see Ingram on Murray for the majority of the game. Murray's aggressiveness can be mitigated by Ingram's spider arms and crazy length whilst M Jones has the size, strength, and saavy to keep Willis in check.

kAzE
11-16-2015, 11:44 AM
I hope you are right!

I believe UK has been ranked higher than us every time we've played them in this event, and I also think we're undefeated against them. I'm pretty confident we have the better team at this point in the season.

Olympic Fan
11-16-2015, 11:48 AM
FWIW, the opening line on Duke-Kentucky favors the Wildcats by 4 1/2 points --

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/odds/las-vegas/

We'll see how that line moves (if it does) in the next 24 hours. My guess is that by tipoff, Kentucky will be a 2 1/2 point favorite.

Nice to be the underdog for a change.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-16-2015, 12:01 PM
This promises to be a lot of fun. Whenever people ask me why I like college basketball better than football, it is games like this. Two really talented teams are going to put it all out there tomorrow night. Odds are, it will be a hard fought game, and the loser will have to recover some pride.

But it will have no bearing on either team's national championship chances, other than bragging rights and possible head to head seeding.

Basketball in March is fantastic. But it also ain't bad in November.

Go Duke!

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 12:01 PM
I believe UK has been ranked higher than us every time we've played them in this event, and I also think we're undefeated against them. I'm pretty confident we have the better team at this point in the season.

Yes, vis-a-vis Kentucky and the Champions Classic...we're 1-0! We're 1-0! We're 1-0!

Has a Cal team ever beaten a K team?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-16-2015, 12:06 PM
Yes, vis-a-vis Kentucky and the Champions Classic...we're 1-0! We're 1-0! We're 1-0!

Has a Cal team ever beaten a K team?

According to ESPN K is 1-0 against Cal.

kAzE
11-16-2015, 12:10 PM
Yes, vis-a-vis Kentucky and the Champions Classic...we're 1-0! We're 1-0! We're 1-0!

Has a Cal team ever beaten a K team?

Hm, we've really only played them once in this event? I must be thinking of another time we played them outside this event recently. I could swear we've played them at least twice in the past 5 years, but I guess my memory isn't what it once was.

Anyway, here's a preview from KSR: http://kentuckysportsradio.com/basketball-2/checking-in-on-the-dukies/

This guy seems to believe that they are deeper than us, but I disagree. I think they have the better top end talent, but I think we have more quality players from top to bottom. We have 7 McD AAs to their 5. If they are going to underestimate Luke, they will be sorry. Also, like everyone else in the world, they are sleeping on Amile Jefferson, who I think may be one of the most improved players in the ACC not named Grayson Allen. Just another doubter Amile will prove wrong.

David Bunkley
11-16-2015, 12:30 PM
I think on the perimeter, our best option is to keep Jones on Murray as much as possible. Jones has earned the right to guard the other teams' best perimeter scorer based on his play in the past, specifically on Dekker. Ulis is the more interesting assignment;I'd be interested to see a rotation of Ingram and Thornton (maybe Jones, when Ulis is out) over the course of the game. The one player I am concerned about is Allen. It is important that Allen stays out of foul trouble, because i do not believe that UK has a perimeter player that will be able to consistently keep Grayson out of the lane. I am really looking forward to watching Marshall and Amile against legit competition.

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 12:36 PM
According to ESPN K is 1-0 against Cal.

The only two that I can remember are the last Champions' Classic game and a pre-conference tilt with Memphis at MSG when Cal had just come back into the college game from the NBA and was building that powerhouse.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=253290150

It was the 2005 Preseason NIT title game at MSG with our JJ/Shelden/Dockery/Paulus/McRoberts squad. I remember our seniors led us but Paulus impressed me with his fight. The box score is insane, every Duke starter played almost the whole game! K only played 7 guys and the bench played a total of 21 minutes.

Cal's squad had Rodney Carney, Shawne Williams, Darius Washington Jr., Joey Dorsey, Chris Douglas Roberts, Robert Dozier...lots of guys from his 2007-08 juggernaut. Looking into it, that Memphis team went 33-4 and reached the Elite 8. It was really his first great team since he started at Memphis. It was his 6th year at Memphis. It is easy to forget how many years it took to build that program and the modern Cal model.

Kedsy
11-16-2015, 12:38 PM
According to ESPN K is 1-0 against Cal.

ESPN is wrong. Duke with Coach K beat Calipari-coached Memphis in 2005-06 and beat Cal-coached Kentucky in 2012-13.


I believe UK has been ranked higher than us every time we've played them in this event, and I also think we're undefeated against them. I'm pretty confident we have the better team at this point in the season.

The history of the Duke/UK rivalry is interesting. Overall, Kentucky has won 11 and Duke 9. They've played ten games when both teams were top 10, with Duke winning 6 to UK's 4. They've played in the NCAA tournament five times, with UK wining 3 to Duke's 2 (including two Final Four games (UK won both) and two Elite Eight games (split)). But the best stat is that Duke has won 7 of the last 8 games between the two schools. Coach K is 6-1 vs. Kentucky, the lone loss being in the 1998 Elite Eight.

CameronBlue
11-16-2015, 12:58 PM
But the best stat is that Duke has won 7 of the last 8 games between the two schools. Coach K is 6-1 vs. Kentucky, the lone loss being in the 1998 Elite Eight.

No the best stat line is
10 for 10 from the floor
10 for 10 from the line
1 for 1 from three

CDu
11-16-2015, 01:02 PM
I agree with those that have said that UK will have the two best players on the floor (Murray and Labissiere). And I also agree with those who say that UK may have the better team come March. And I also agree with those who say that we will probably win tomorrow.

The one thing that makes me nervous is that Murray is SOOOOOO talented that he may be able to will a victory. It will be interesting to see how we decide to defend him. I see three options: Ingram, Jones, and Allen. Ingram's length might be disruptive. Jones' tenacity and defensive skill might work. Allen's toughness might work. Of the three, Ingram seems the most likely to be successful. I love Jones defensively, but Murray will be the best guard he's ever faced.

If we can contain Murray, though, I think we're in great shape. Ulis is a nice complementary player, but he's not a game changer. He just looked great because he was being compared with the Harrison twins at PG, which is always a good thing for your reputation. He's not bad, but he's not going to beat you as a go-to player. He's a very good game manager though, and with the right pieces around him he can be a thorn in the side. I just don't think they have the pieces around him yet. Murray is a streaky shooter, but aside from him they have just one other shooter to complement Ulis (Willis). And Willis doesn't really do anything else of value.

Position by position, I'd say this:
C - Labissiere vs Jefferson (I suspect we may cross-match here given that Labissiere is skinny and Lee isn't a scorer): edge to Jefferson early in season, probably to Labissiere later in season
PF - Lee vs Plumlee: advantage Lee
SF - Willis vs Ingram: HUGE advantage Ingram
SG - Murray vs Allen: advantage Murray
PG - Ulis vs Jones: push
backup PG: Briscoe vs Thornton: advantage Briscoe
backup wing: Matthews vs Kennard: advantage Kennard
backup big: Poythress vs Jeter: advantage Poythress if he's healthy, push if not

If Obi can play, that makes us much more formidable as they have better overall talent there but fewer bodies. Where we greatly exceed them is in wing depth. We have the second, third, and fourth best wings, and possibly the fifth best wing if Kennard steps up.

But for tomorrow, I think this is going to be one of those games where UK will need their edge in top-end (but young) talent to make up for the lack of quality depth on the wing. And I don't think it will be enough early in the season.

BD80
11-16-2015, 01:08 PM
...

Position by position, I'd say this:
C - Labissiere vs Jefferson (I suspect we may cross-match here given that Labissiere is skinny and Lee isn't a scorer): edge to Jefferson early in season, probably to Labissiere later in season
PF - Lee vs Plumlee: advantage Lee
SF - Willis vs Ingram: HUGE advantage Ingram
SG - Murray vs Allen: advantage Murray
PG - Ulis vs Jones: push
backup PG: Briscoe vs Thornton: advantage Briscoe
backup wing: Matthews vs Kennard: advantage Kennard
backup big: Poythress vs Jeter: advantage Poythress if he's healthy, push if not

...

Ummm. Coach - HUGE advantage Duke.

wilson
11-16-2015, 01:12 PM
The history of the Duke/UK rivalry is interesting. Overall, Kentucky has won 11 and Duke 9. They've played ten games when both teams were top 10, with Duke winning 6 to UK's 4. They've played in the NCAA tournament five times, with UK wining 3 to Duke's 2 (including two Final Four games (UK won both) and two Elite Eight games (split)). But the best stat is that Duke has won 7 of the last 8 games between the two schools. Coach K is 6-1 vs. Kentucky, the lone loss being in the 1998 Elite Eight.This (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1992-03-28-duke.html) is my favorite stat.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 02:04 PM
I agree with those that have said that UK will have the two best players on the floor (Murray and Labissiere). And I also agree with those who say that UK may have the better team come March. And I also agree with those who say that we will probably win tomorrow.

The one thing that makes me nervous is that Murray is SOOOOOO talented that he may be able to will a victory. It will be interesting to see how we decide to defend him. I see three options: Ingram, Jones, and Allen. Ingram's length might be disruptive. Jones' tenacity and defensive skill might work. Allen's toughness might work. Of the three, Ingram seems the most likely to be successful. I love Jones defensively, but Murray will be the best guard he's ever faced.

If we can contain Murray, though, I think we're in great shape. Ulis is a nice complementary player, but he's not a game changer. He just looked great because he was being compared with the Harrison twins at PG, which is always a good thing for your reputation. He's not bad, but he's not going to beat you as a go-to player. He's a very good game manager though, and with the right pieces around him he can be a thorn in the side. I just don't think they have the pieces around him yet. Murray is a streaky shooter, but aside from him they have just one other shooter to complement Ulis (Willis). And Willis doesn't really do anything else of value.

Position by position, I'd say this:
C - Labissiere vs Jefferson (I suspect we may cross-match here given that Labissiere is skinny and Lee isn't a scorer): edge to Jefferson early in season, probably to Labissiere later in season
PF - Lee vs Plumlee: advantage Lee
SF - Willis vs Ingram: HUGE advantage Ingram
SG - Murray vs Allen: advantage Murray
PG - Ulis vs Jones: push
backup PG: Briscoe vs Thornton: advantage Briscoe
backup wing: Matthews vs Kennard: advantage Kennard
backup big: Poythress vs Jeter: advantage Poythress if he's healthy, push if not

If Obi can play, that makes us much more formidable as they have better overall talent there but fewer bodies. Where we greatly exceed them is in wing depth. We have the second, third, and fourth best wings, and possibly the fifth best wing if Kennard steps up.

But for tomorrow, I think this is going to be one of those games where UK will need their edge in top-end (but young) talent to make up for the lack of quality depth on the wing. And I don't think it will be enough early in the season.

Agree with your match-ups. However, the only difference is I'm giving current Allen an edge over current Murray. Murray is more talented. Murray does have the higher upside. But Murray is young, fresh, turnover-prone, and has the green light for every shot opportunity, good or bad. I think when Murray has the green light in March, which he will, he's gonna be unstoppable. But right now, there is still a huge learning curve for Murray (as there was for our talented freshman this early in the season).

Sidenote: I feel really terrible for Poythress. He was an exciting high school prospect that Duke recruited who had the body of Justise Winlsow coming into college. But I feel that Cal completely mismanaged him as a player and his injuries have really hurt his development. Hate to see a player go through that, regardless of the school.

wilson
11-16-2015, 02:07 PM
Holy Cow. We all have Christian's stat line committed to memory but the individual shooting percentages for both teams are pretty amazing. Only one player shot below .500 for the game (Feldhaus).Yep. I know we talk about that game all the time, but it really is worth another watch (available here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDlWZ1vC9Ww)), because both of those teams were absolutely on fire all night. There's a reason it's remembered as one of the most spine-tingling games in NCAA history, and Laettner's buzzer-beater is just part of the story. The two teams combined to shoot over 60% on the night.

David Bunkley
11-16-2015, 02:31 PM
Agree with your match-ups. However, the only difference is I'm giving current Allen an edge over current Murray. Murray is more talented. Murray does have the higher upside. But Murray is young, fresh, turnover-prone, and has the green light for every shot opportunity, good or bad. I think when Murray has the green light in March, which he will, he's gonna be unstoppable. But right now, there is still a huge learning curve for Murray (as there was for our talented freshman this early in the season).

Sidenote: I feel really terrible for Poythress. He was an exciting high school prospect that Duke recruited who had the body of Justise Winlsow coming into college. But I feel that Cal completely mismanaged him as a player and his injuries have really hurt his development. Hate to see a player go through that, regardless of the school.

I'm not sure that I'm ready to say that Murray is more talented than Allen or has a greater upside. They are only a year apart and both getting better, but as far as what I've seen, Allen's long term ceiling is as high as anyone in college this season except maybe Ingram.

kAzE
11-16-2015, 02:52 PM
I'm not sure that I'm ready to say that Murray is more talented than Allen or has a greater upside. They are only a year apart and both getting better, but as far as what I've seen, Allen's long term ceiling is as high as anyone in college this season except maybe Ingram.

Yeah, I think everyone is looking at Murray's upside as a pro and using that as a measuring stick. Murray has the most talent of any guard in this game, but I believe Allen is just a better player right now and should be for most of the season (health permitting). It'll be a different story in 1 or 2 years, but who cares about that right now? Most of these guys won't be in college next year anyway.

Billy Dat
11-16-2015, 03:18 PM
Nice long Cal pre-Duke press conference transcript
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/kentucky/2015/11/16/q-calipari-excited-coach-vs-duke/75884316/

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I think everyone is looking at Murray's upside as a pro and using that as a measuring stick. Murray has the most talent of any guard in this game, but I believe Allen is just a better player right now and should be for most of the season (health permitting). It'll be a different story in 1 or 2 years, but who cares about that right now? Most of these guys won't be in college next year anyway.

Yup. That's exactly what most of us are saying, including my prior posts to this thread. Grayson is better right now. But I firmly believe that Murray's potential talent and upside is higher than anyone on Duke or Kentucky.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure that I'm ready to say that Murray is more talented than Allen or has a greater upside. They are only a year apart and both getting better, but as far as what I've seen, Allen's long term ceiling is as high as anyone in college this season except maybe Ingram.

Are you trying to say that the two players who you believe have the highest long term ceiling in college are both on Duke? If so, I couldn't disagree more. Simmons, Skal, and Murray have comparable - if not higher - upside than Ingram and Allen isn't a lottery pick this year or next on any of the draft boards. And we know that the NBA primarily drafts on upside, not results.

Allen has and is an amazing player. He will probably be our leading scorer and one of our two most important players. He is athletic, strong, smart, and has a nearly unstoppable drive. But I cannot believe that his upside is one of the highest in college ball.

Olympic Fan
11-16-2015, 03:29 PM
But the best stat is that Duke has won 7 of the last 8 games between the two schools. Coach K is 6-1 vs. Kentucky, the lone loss being in the 1998 Elite Eight.

Half right -- Duke is 7-1 vs. Kentucky in the last eight, but the first two wins in that streak belong to Bill Foster -- an 82-76 OT win over Sam Bowie and the 'cats in the first Hall of Fame game, played Nov. 17, 1979. Later that season, Duke again edged Bowie at Kentucky -- in Rupp Arena -- in the NCAA regional semifinals. That one was 55-54 on Mar. 13, 1980.

K is 5-1 against the 'Cats:

Nov. 19, 1988 -- a lopsided 80-55 win in another Hall of Fame game in Springfield, Mass.

Mar. 28, 1992 -- the Greatest Game ever played, a 104-103 Duke win in OT, played in Philadelphia

Mar. 22, 1998 -- An 86-84 loss to the Cats in the NCAA regional finals in St. Pete

Dec. 22, 1998 -- A 71-60 win in the Meadowlands -- a game Elton Brand, who had been struggling, emerged as the dominant player who would win the NPOY.

Dec. 18, 2001 -- A 95-92 overtime win -- a great comeback by Jason Williams and company -- in the Meadowlands.

Nov. 13, 2012 -- A 75-68 win in the Champions Classic in the Georgia Dome.

Every meeting at a neutral site.

My favorite Duke-Kentucky trivia is that in Duke's last three national championship seasons, Kentucky has lost in the NCAA Tournament in the game before they would have faced Duke. Then Duke beat the team that beat them -- Southern Cal in 2001, West Virginia in 2010 and Wisconsin last season.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2015, 03:32 PM
Half right -- Duke is 7-1 vs. Kentucky in the last eight, but the first two wins in that streak belong to Bill Foster -- an 82-76 OT win over Sam Bowie and the 'cats in the first Hall of Fame game, played Nov. 17, 1979. Later that season, Duke again edged Bowie at Kentucky -- in Rupp Arena -- in the NCAA regional semifinals. That one was 55-54 on Mar. 13, 1980.

K is 5-1 against the 'Cats:

Nov. 19, 1988 -- a lopsided 80-55 win in another Hall of Fame game in Springfield, Mass.

Mar. 28, 1992 -- the Greatest Game ever played, a 104-103 Duke win in OT, played in Philadelphia

Mar. 22, 1998 -- An 86-84 loss to the Cats in the NCAA regional finals in St. Pete

Dec. 22, 1998 -- A 71-60 win in the Meadowlands -- a game Elton Brand, who had been struggling, emerged as the dominant player who would win the NPOY.

Dec. 18, 2001 -- A 95-92 overtime win -- a great comeback by Jason Williams and company -- in the Meadowlands.

Nov. 13, 2012 -- A 75-68 win in the Champions Classic in the Georgia Dome.

Every meeting at a neutral site.

My favorite Duke-Kentucky trivia is that in Duke's last three national championship seasons, Kentucky has lost in the NCAA Tournament in the game before they would have faced Duke. Then Duke beat the team that beat them -- Southern Cal in 2001, West Virginia in 2010 and Wisconsin last season.

So...what you're saying is that both UK and Duke have to be good for Duke to win it all. Given that is accurate this year, I like our chances even more!

MChambers
11-16-2015, 04:29 PM
I'm surprised the Duke-Kentucky game is the early game. I would have thought that ESPN would want that game to be the late game. Is this simply a rotational thing? Is there some other explanation?

whereinthehellami
11-16-2015, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if either team won a close game or if either team blew the other out. The only outcome i wouldn't be happy with would be a KY rout. Don't see that happening anyway. I think Duke wins a close one. I think the team with the fewer TOs win.

brevity
11-16-2015, 05:48 PM
My favorite Duke-Kentucky trivia is that in Duke's last three national championship seasons, Kentucky has lost in the NCAA Tournament in the game before they would have faced Duke. Then Duke beat the team that beat them -- Southern Cal in 2001, West Virginia in 2010 and Wisconsin last season.

Almost happened in 1994, too. Southeast 3-seed Kentucky may have been looking ahead to 2-seed Duke when they were upset by 6-seed Marquette. So Kentucky did its part, but Duke did not, losing to Arkansas in the final game. (A vast SEC conspiracy? There was evidence that Hillary Clinton's manicurist accosted Tony Lang in the Duke locker room before the game. But people were too focused on Whitewater.)

77devil
11-16-2015, 05:52 PM
The history of the Duke/UK rivalry is interesting. Overall, Kentucky has won 11 and Duke 9. They've played ten games when both teams were top 10, with Duke winning 6 to UK's 4. They've played in the NCAA tournament five times, with UK wining 3 to Duke's 2 (including two Final Four games (UK won both) and two Elite Eight games (split)). But the best stat is that Duke has won 7 of the last 8 games between the two schools. Coach K is 6-1 vs. Kentucky, the lone loss being in the 1998 Elite Eight.

Coach K will be 6-1 after the W tomorrow night. 2 W's of your 7 of last 8 belong to Bill Foster.

DukeFanSince1990
11-16-2015, 06:55 PM
OK, so lets say Coach K played the Wildcats by himself, with one hand tied behind his back and holding a polish sausage in the other. Would the Blue Devil victory be by 30 or 40 points? DA DEVILS!

But really, Nolan said the other night at half-time of the Bryant Game that he thought Ingram would come out in this game because of the competition. Lets hope so.

Pghdukie
11-16-2015, 07:32 PM
OK, so lets say Coach K played the Wildcats by himself, with one hand tied behind his back and holding a polish sausage in the other. Would the Blue Devil victory be by 30 or 40 points? DA DEVILS!

But really, Nolan said the other night at half-time of the Bryant Game that he thought Ingram would come out in this game because of the competition. Lets hope so.

But what would be the score if the other team was coached by a guy named Ditka ?

Pghdukie
11-16-2015, 07:33 PM
And I missed the last 10 minutes because I was having my 13th heart attack !

Dukehky
11-16-2015, 08:04 PM
I don't think Grayson is going to see a ton of time on Murray. Make Ulis beat you with his scoring, but we cannot have Grayson get in foul trouble trying to guard their most dynamic perimeter scorer.

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-16-2015, 08:06 PM
Last year Cal revealed that his dream as a college coach is to go through the season undefeated. He thought he was going to do it last year. We can snuff out Cal's dream in the third game of the season. As a Kentuckian, who hates UK, nothing could be finer!

BD80
11-16-2015, 08:10 PM
Last year Cal revealed that his dream as a college coach is to go through the season undefeated. He thought he was going to do it last year. We can snuff out Cal's dream in the third game of the season. As a Kentuckian, who hates UK, nothing could be finer!

What if Luhiville ruined the undefeated season?

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-16-2015, 08:21 PM
What if Luhiville ruined the undefeated season?

No, it's much better for Duke to beat them. UK fans still feel superior to U of L, but they are deeply insecure in their relationship to Duke.

JPtheGame
11-16-2015, 10:05 PM
Agree with your match-ups. However, the only difference is I'm giving current Allen an edge over current Murray. Murray is more talented. Murray does have the higher upside. But Murray is young, fresh, turnover-prone, and has the green light for every shot opportunity, good or bad. I think when Murray has the green light in March, which he will, he's gonna be unstoppable. But right now, there is still a huge learning curve for Murray (as there was for our talented freshman this early in the season
There's a lot of love here for a kid avg 13, 4, and 5 a game right now. Grayson is far superior as of Tuesday. He's going for 27, 4, 4 and has championship experience. Plus the new rules make Grayson unguardable right now. You won't see Murray anywhere near Grayson in this game, and if you do, you'll hear whistles.

Neals384
11-16-2015, 10:26 PM
OK, I'm going to continue my new tradition of making pre-game comments that we all hope turn out to be wrong:

I think KY has a motivation edge. Duke has the banner that was supposed to be theirs along with an undefeated season. It's so unfair that Duke got the banner without even having to play KY. KY would have won easily, if only they had a bye into the championship game like they should.

Sure, most of their roster wasn't here last year, but they're all hearing it, from Cal, from everyone on campus: it's payback time.

weezie
11-16-2015, 10:42 PM
I'm surprised the Duke-Kentucky game is the early game. I would have thought that ESPN would want that game to be the late game. Is this simply a rotational thing? Is there some other explanation?

No, more eyes on early for the entire upper card game. Most east coast will be asleep by halftime of the later game. Come on MChambers! You know that the world, nay, the universe wants to watch us against the heinous goobs!
Nothing sexy about sparty vs. uhhhh that corn-consuming whatevs bunch of also-rans. With their fat self-coach.

uh_no
11-16-2015, 11:13 PM
duke wins by double digits.

UK doesn't have a major talent/physical advantage, which is generally the only way they can hold their own against disciplined, well coached teams (see: ND and WU last year)

Duke is well coached. has the bodies to match up, and the talent to hang. I see UK getting frustrated, and in typical fashion, calipari has no idea how to coach a team and respond. Reminds me a lot of the UK/UConn matchup in 2011 in maui that uconn won by 20. UK got better as the year went on, and played much closer in the tournament, but still got blown out early. THat's what I see happening tomorrow.

gumbomoop
11-16-2015, 11:54 PM
I'm surprised the Duke-Kentucky game is the early game. I would have thought that ESPN would want that game to be the late game. Is this simply a rotational thing? Is there some other explanation?


No, more eyes on early for the entire upper card game. Most east coast will be asleep by halftime of the later game.

Building on weezie's answer, the eastern 1/3 of the country gets a great matchup in their (7:30-9:30 EST) prime time. But then folks in middle of country, including KU and MSU fans, also get a prime time matchup, as the second game starts around 9 CST.

MChambers
11-17-2015, 08:15 AM
Building on weezie's answer, the eastern 1/3 of the country gets a great matchup in their (7:30-9:30 EST) prime time. But then folks in middle of country, including KU and MSU fans, also get a prime time matchup, as the second game starts around 9 CST.
Just to be clear about this, Michigan is in the eastern time zone, so folks in Michigan are going to have to stay up late.

whereinthehellami
11-17-2015, 09:00 AM
Whenever I read comments from Coach Cal I come away unimpressed. There doesn't seem to be a lot of insight into coaching. Reading his comments is like being taken on a long winded tour of a circle.

uh_no
11-17-2015, 09:10 AM
Whenever I read comments from Coach Cal I come away unimpressed. There doesn't seem to be a lot of insight into coaching. Reading his comments is like being taken on a long winded tour of a circle.

yay! at least someone sees through is BS. He's a good recruiter, and manages talent decently...but has little skill in terms of actual coaching.

his answer when they were getting beat by ND last year "we'll be okay" he had no clue. and they would have lost had ND not given it away....
look at how they got beaten by WV in 2010...shooting a gazillion threes
or how often they needed last second heroics last year, despite being the "team of the century"

these are not attributes of well coached teams.

he either wins because of a talent advantage, or has trouble winning at all.

dribble drive? that's not offense...those are things you do with a basketball
team defense? yeah until the other team screens and cuts.
game plan? guy couldn't game plan his way out of a paper bag.

at in the obnoxiousness....and he is literally one of my least favorite people in the sport.

JNort
11-17-2015, 09:15 AM
yay! at least someone sees through is BS. He's a good recruiter, and manages talent decently...but has little skill in terms of actual coaching.

his answer when they were getting beat by ND last year "we'll be okay" he had no clue. and they would have lost had ND not given it away...
look at how they got beaten by WV in 2010...shooting a gazillion threes
or how often they needed last second heroics last year, despite being the "team of the century"

these are not attributes of well coached teams.

he either wins because of a talent advantage, or has trouble winning at all.

dribble drive? that's not offense...those are things you do with a basketball
team defense? yeah until the other team screens and cuts.
game plan? guy couldn't game plan his way out of a paper bag.

at in the obnoxiousness...and he is literally one of my least favorite people in the sport.

This is just Roy Williams. I'd rather have Cal "coaching" than Roy though, but just barely

Ichabod Drain
11-17-2015, 09:24 AM
He's a good recruiter, and manages talent decently...but has little skill in terms of actual coaching.


I think this is selling him a little short. Do you think a person with just these characteristics can win a national championship and make it to three other final fours in five years?

Saying Calipari is a good recruiter is like saying Coach K is a good coach. It's true but only at the barest of minimums.

sagegrouse
11-17-2015, 09:34 AM
Outstanding article on K (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14148047/how-duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-beating-kentucky-john-calipari-own-game) by Ian O'Connor and how he is beating Calipari at his own game.

Indoor66
11-17-2015, 09:41 AM
yay! at least someone sees through is BS. He's a good recruiter, and manages talent decently...but has little skill in terms of actual coaching.

his answer when they were getting beat by ND last year "we'll be okay" he had no clue. and they would have lost had ND not given it away...
look at how they got beaten by WV in 2010...shooting a gazillion threes
or how often they needed last second heroics last year, despite being the "team of the century"

these are not attributes of well coached teams.

he either wins because of a talent advantage, or has trouble winning at all.

dribble drive? that's not offense...those are things you do with a basketball
team defense? yeah until the other team screens and cuts.
game plan? guy couldn't game plan his way out of a paper bag.

at in the obnoxiousness...and he is literally one of my least favorite people in the sport.

Come on, how do you REALLY feel?

mgtr
11-17-2015, 09:54 AM
why is joe lunardi already on tv?

Because he can't show brackets on radio?

This is a very good question. Perhaps it is in his contract.

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 09:57 AM
at in the obnoxiousness...and he is literally one of my least favorite people in the sport.

We are approaching the proper level of pique for tonight. 7:30PM EST....get here already!!!!!

flyingdutchdevil
11-17-2015, 10:08 AM
I have to share this. It's too funny: http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/uk-basketball-men/article45108066.html

Talks about how Kentucky really hates Duke. This must be what the UNC-State relationship feels like, only both schools aren't this good at basketball.

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 10:12 AM
Outstanding article on K (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14148047/how-duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-beating-kentucky-john-calipari-own-game) by Ian O'Connor and how he is beating Calipari at his own game.

This article IS outstanding, everyone should read it. It is basically the story of Duke and K at this present moment with the primary focus being on the current recruiting philosophy and how it has evolved. Plus, he gets some not-so-veiled shots in at Cal. Great stuff.

duke79
11-17-2015, 10:26 AM
I have to share this. It's too funny: http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/uk-basketball-men/article45108066.html

Talks about how Kentucky really hates Duke. This must be what the UNC-State relationship feels like, only both schools aren't this good at basketball.

This IS entertaining to read! I highly recommend it.

timmy c
11-17-2015, 10:27 AM
Outstanding article on K (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14148047/how-duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-beating-kentucky-john-calipari-own-game) by Ian O'Connor and how he is beating Calipari at his own game.

This article got me pumped for the season and the game tonight! A few very quotable highlights:


Krzyzewski will never match the 10 titles John Wooden won at UCLA in much different times, but he has won more titles than Dean Smith and Roy Williams combined, and he did surpass his mentor, Bob Knight, in every conceivable way, and he did beat Rick Pitino and Jerry Tarkanian in the most memorable games they ever coached.

and this one...


If today's recruiting race could be held at Churchill Downs or Pimlico or Belmont Park, Duke and Kentucky would be Secretariat and American Pharoah and the rest of college basketball's contenders would be a fading tangle of barn horses choking on their dust.

duke79
11-17-2015, 10:54 AM
yay! at least someone sees through is BS. He's a good recruiter, and manages talent decently...but has little skill in terms of actual coaching.

his answer when they were getting beat by ND last year "we'll be okay" he had no clue. and they would have lost had ND not given it away...
look at how they got beaten by WV in 2010...shooting a gazillion threes
or how often they needed last second heroics last year, despite being the "team of the century"

these are not attributes of well coached teams.

he either wins because of a talent advantage, or has trouble winning at all.

dribble drive? that's not offense...those are things you do with a basketball
team defense? yeah until the other team screens and cuts.
game plan? guy couldn't game plan his way out of a paper bag.

at in the obnoxiousness...and he is literally one of my least favorite people in the sport.

Well said......I especially agree with the last sentence. Every time I listen to him, I get the feeling that "sleaze" oozes out of every pore on his body. I think if he were not coaching basketball, he'd be selling defective used cars somewhere in New Jersey!

I'd LOVE to see Duke win tonight!!!

BD80
11-17-2015, 10:58 AM
Outstanding article on K (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14148047/how-duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-beating-kentucky-john-calipari-own-game) by Ian O'Connor and how he is beating Calipari at his own game.

Flabbergasting:

Calipari ... he wants to win, but never at the expense of his players and their hoop dreams ... [Last season] Calipari settled on a platoon system to try to protect his players' future NBA wages, and if that system didn't cost him a 40-0 season, his choice to play the struggling Harrisons down the stretch against Wisconsin in the national semis might have.

During a September coaches clinic, according to USA Today, Calipari said he didn't replace the Harrisons -- who would miss seven of their last eight shots -- with freshmen Devin Booker and Tyler Ulis because he was "being loyal to those other two who led us to a championship game a year ago, and they deserve to be on that court. That's why I did it. I knew who was playing well and who was struggling. You think I wasn't sitting there watching? But I owed it to [the Harrison twins] to do it."

calipari admits he betrayed the rest of the players, that he did not make the best coaching decision. He made a recruiting decision.

Coach K? A bit different: "every time I coach it's never difficult. You put the best players on the court regardless of experience, age, all that kind of stuff. You earn your playing time." His players know that that the players that have earned the right to be in the final minutes of the National Semi-final game will be.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 11:05 AM
Flabbergasting:

Calipari ... he wants to win, but never at the expense of his players and their hoop dreams ... [Last season] Calipari settled on a platoon system to try to protect his players' future NBA wages, and if that system didn't cost him a 40-0 season, his choice to play the struggling Harrisons down the stretch against Wisconsin in the national semis might have.

During a September coaches clinic, according to USA Today, Calipari said he didn't replace the Harrisons -- who would miss seven of their last eight shots -- with freshmen Devin Booker and Tyler Ulis because he was "being loyal to those other two who led us to a championship game a year ago, and they deserve to be on that court. That's why I did it. I knew who was playing well and who was struggling. You think I wasn't sitting there watching? But I owed it to [the Harrison twins] to do it."

calipari admits he betrayed the rest of the players, that he did not make the best coaching decision. He made a recruiting decision.

Coach K? A bit different: "every time I coach it's never difficult. You put the best players on the court regardless of experience, age, all that kind of stuff. You earn your playing time." His players know that that the players that have earned the right to be in the final minutes of the National Semi-final game will be.


This article was one of the worst I've read. Overall, just ESPN yet again conveying highly accepted pre-existing narratives. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

moonpie23
11-17-2015, 11:09 AM
the cats over on catspause have got a cats victory all tied up for tonight..

flyingdutchdevil
11-17-2015, 11:18 AM
This article was one of the worst I've read. Overall, just ESPN yet again conveying highly accepted pre-existing narratives. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

Well, if you don't like articles about Duke, hate mainstream media, and love to diss color commentators, then you are clearly in the right place at DBR!

I liked the article and it provided some interesting insight. Anytime Coach K opens his mouth, I'm all ears. Same with Calipari, although that's more to be assumed than informed.

NSDukeFan
11-17-2015, 11:48 AM
I'm a little scared about the game because of how well Kentucky prepares for Duke. In 2010, UK was all ready to demolish Duke, except they forgot to beat West Virginia. Last year Kentucky was pumped for the final against Duke, except they forgot to beat Wisconsin.

COYS
11-17-2015, 11:58 AM
I liked the article and it provided some interesting insight. Anytime Coach K opens his mouth, I'm all ears. Same with Calipari, although that's more to be assumed than informed.

I sympathize with those who see a few thinly-veiled shots (the article implies that Duke's one and done players aren't remotely academically interested when we have absolutely no evidence for that). However, it's funny to read the comment section and see UK fans who are upset that Calipari was vilified for targeting one and dones a few years back but when Coach K does it, he gets credit for adapting to the modern game.

Anyway, there is a lot to take away from the article. The difference in attitude and focus between the two coaches is plain to anyone's eyes who is willing to look beyond the article. How many times has Calipari moved the goalposts after losing a big game? After the loss in 2010 to WVU (a team that Duke went on to wax in the Final Four) he said that UK was just distracted by the possibility of playing and beating Duke in the Final Four . . . so beating Duke became the primary focus of the team, not winning the championship. Then, later he trumped up putting so many UK players in the first round of the lottery, calling it the "greatest day" in UK history . . . so at that point it wasn't about winning the title but about having lottery picks. This past season, all the rhetoric about the platoon became so annoying. After the loss to Wiscy when the idea of platooning came under intense criticism, Calipari moved the goalposts yet again, inferring that it wasn't about winning but showcasing all of his players' individual talents to the detriment of the team.

Coach K is still, at his heart, concerned with winning the game in front of him. I think it's obvious he cares about the individuals on his team and wants to see them realize their potential, but when it comes to game day, he's playing the guys who are going to help the team win the game that is in front of them on that day. Calipari, on the other hand, seems to always be conscious of what the media (and, therefore, future recruits) will think about his program. He lets that perception dictate how he decides on a rotation and how he responds to a loss. That is a major difference in coaching personality.

The article also pays only a short amount of time talking about the 2010 championship team. This was FOUR YEARS after he had taken over as USA Basketball coach and during that span Duke failed to sign guys like Patrick Patterson, Greg Monroe, John Wall, Kenny Boynton and other potential NBA talents (some of those proved to be bigger talents than others, obviously, but all were considered key recruits at the time). Meanwhile, Josh McRoberts never fully lived up to the expectations many had for the #2 recruit. Gerald Henderson took a few seasons to turn himself into a lottery pick. And from 2006-2009 Duke lost in the Sweet 16, the first round, the second round, and the Sweet 16 again. This wasn't such a bad run by most standards. The time frame includes a pair of ACC Titles and some really good teams that had some impressive wins. But it also wasn't up to K's lofty standards. If Coach K has climbed back to the top of the college basketball mountain, winning the title in 2010 has got to be a big part of the story and highlights perhaps the primary attribute of Coach. He is constantly able to adapt and learn.

kAzE
11-17-2015, 12:12 PM
I'm a little scared about the game because of how well Kentucky prepares for Duke. In 2010, UK was all ready to demolish Duke, except they forgot to beat West Virginia. Last year Kentucky was pumped for the final against Duke, except they forgot to beat Wisconsin.

It's not this that I'm worried about. Coach K prepares his teams for the task at hand, no matter the stage. Our guys will be ready. However, this is an emotionally charged match up for Kentucky. I'm worried that this is a much bigger game for UK than it is for us. It's a big game regardless, but UK has a much bigger fan base with a huge inferiority complex when it comes to Duke, piled on top of years and years of pent up frustration. As a Kentucky native, I can confidently say that their fans want this win MUCH more than we do. Hopefully, all that pressure affects their team in a negative way instead of fueling them to play better than they would otherwise. I hope that our team is focused and just plays their best.

killerleft
11-17-2015, 12:19 PM
It's not this that I'm worried about. Coach K prepares his teams for the task at hand, no matter the stage. Our guys will be ready. However, this is an emotionally charged match up for Kentucky. I'm worried that this is a much bigger game for UK than it is for us. It's a big game regardless, but UK has a much bigger fan base with a huge inferiority complex when it comes to Duke, piled on top of years and years of pent up frustration. As a Kentucky native, I can confidently say that their fans want this win MUCH more than we do. Hopefully, all that pressure affects their team in a negative way instead of fueling them to play better than they would otherwise. I hope that our team is focused and just plays their best.

Perhaps you've answered yourself. If they come into the game with so much on their plate, so much that haunts them, Duke has an advantage just by treating the game as a stepping stone that can lead to a great season- win or lose.

uh_no
11-17-2015, 01:30 PM
I think this is selling him a little short. Do you think a person with just these characteristics can win a national championship and make it to three other final fours in five years?

yep. when your recruits are that much more talented. the draft numbers show that.

I'd say it's incredible that he's ONLY managed to win 1 in 5 years given the talent....and the nature in which his teams go out is very telling as well. Further, the final fours are almost a non-starter in my opinion. They waltz over an easy bracket given by their gaudy record against a terrible league, and then run into a talented team in the elite 8 or final 4 and lose....every year but 1. When it comes time to actually have a plan and play intelligent basketball, their record is not stellar.

Give his teams to K or Izzo, or stevens, or brey, and you're looking at 2-3 titles easy.

luburch
11-17-2015, 01:39 PM
yep. when your recruits are that much more talented. the draft numbers show that.

I'd say it's incredible that he's ONLY managed to win 1 in 5 years given the talent...and the nature in which his teams go out is very telling as well. Further, the final fours are almost a non-starter in my opinion. They waltz over an easy bracket given by their gaudy record against a terrible league, and then run into a talented team in the elite 8 or final 4 and lose...every year but 1. When it comes time to actually have a plan and play intelligent basketball, their record is not stellar.

Give his teams to K or Izzo, or stevens, or brey, and you're looking at 2-3 titles easy.

I think most fans can agree that getting to a Final Four is never easy. Even as a one seed.

I'm not a Cal fan and I despise Kentucky, but he can coach more than some posters are willing to give him credit for.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-17-2015, 01:45 PM
I'm a little scared about the game because of how well Kentucky prepares for Duke. In 2010, UK was all ready to demolish Duke, except they forgot to beat West Virginia. Last year Kentucky was pumped for the final against Duke, except they forgot to beat Wisconsin.

The Devil is in the details...

mccollums
11-17-2015, 01:45 PM
Coach K is still, at his heart, concerned with winning the game in front of him. I think it's obvious he cares about the individuals on his team and wants to see them realize their potential, but when it comes to game day, he's playing the guys who are going to help the team win the game that is in front of them on that day. Calipari, on the other hand, seems to always be conscious of what the media (and, therefore, future recruits) will think about his program. He lets that perception dictate how he decides on a rotation and how he responds to a loss. That is a major difference in coaching personality.


UK fan here, and I agree with this. I think the perception is strongly influenced by NBA scouts and how the kid needs to play to get drafted. But you're right, K definitely makes winning THE priority. There's so many things I would have done with last year's UK team strategically that Cal never attempted. Of course he had the excuse that they were winning so why change things...?

As for the game tonight...I'm not stressing over it a bit. I'm really excited that a young UK team is going to play a Duke team that will play hard and is equal in talent. This UK team is pretty laid back personality wise and they have no idea what's going to hit them from an energy standpoint. Sure it has seeding ramifications and what not, but I'm more excited about this UK team getting punched in the face to see how they will respond. In hindsight, last year's team needed to lose a few to really grow since they peaked so early.

One thing that will probably happen and take away from the game... the refs. With the rules changes and a big stage I'm pretty sure fouls and foul trouble will be the main story line. Hopefully both teams will figure it out quickly and we'll get a really good game. Get ready to hear "freedom of movement"... alot... LOL

other random thoughts..

UK scheduling Albany and NJIT helped a lot. Both of those teams are solid mid-major teams this season and we definitely improved from playing them. Skal made nice strides defensively. His defensive awareness is a work in progress and he started reacting a little quicker to drivers and started getting blocked shots.

Murray is very talented but he's not an elite athlete. He's quick but not elite quick, he gets separation more from the randomness of his moves. Also, he's does not have elite straight line speed, so if he gets a step it's not lights out for the defender. I'm interested to see how he handles your guards and the ball pressure applied. Does his skill level trump playing against better athletes? I know he looked good in the PanAm games, but IMO a big time college game is higher intensity and a better organized defensive effort.

Briscoe seems to have improved his short area quickness since he's lost weight this summer. He's a bull and he's going to force the issue - so he'll probably make an equal amount of good and boneheaded plays.

Ulis hasn't figured his style out with this team yet. The spacing is off so far this season so when he drives he doesn't have a lot of options. He can score but his nature is to pass first. I have seen a little indecision from him when driving. His size does limit his scoring opportunities as well.

Will be interesting to see how Cal uses Skal. Cal FORCED Towns and Ant Davis to play inside and fight. He's already publicly questioning that strategy with Skal, at least offensively. He's saying things like "He's not Shaq and I can't expect him to play like that"... I can't see Skal posting up Plumlee anywhere close to the basket. He's just not strong enough to hold position.

Kentucky's bench is probably a little deeper then most people think. These are still 4 star-ish players that can come in and contribute.
We are not as thin as the last time we played where we were relying on a walk to play PG.

Should be fun, just hope the refs don't dominate it too much.

Ichabod Drain
11-17-2015, 01:52 PM
yep. when your recruits are that much more talented. the draft numbers show that.

I'd say it's incredible that he's ONLY managed to win 1 in 5 years given the talent...and the nature in which his teams go out is very telling as well. Further, the final fours are almost a non-starter in my opinion. They waltz over an easy bracket given by their gaudy record against a terrible league, and then run into a talented team in the elite 8 or final 4 and lose...every year but 1. When it comes time to actually have a plan and play intelligent basketball, their record is not stellar.

Give his teams to K or Izzo, or stevens, or brey, and you're looking at 2-3 titles easy.

In my opinion you are greatly undervaluing what it takes to make it to the final four and win a championship.

flyingdutchdevil
11-17-2015, 02:00 PM
In my opinion you are greatly undervaluing what it takes to make it to the final four and win a championship.

I believe so too. Calipari gets thrown under the bus here at DBR for his coaching, but he is a really good coach and a phenomenal recruiter. 4 out of 5 Final Fours is crazy difficult, especially when that talent is that young (but the youth is mitigate by insane talent).

mccollums
11-17-2015, 02:17 PM
I believe so too. Calipari gets thrown under the bus here at DBR for his coaching, but he is a really good coach and a phenomenal recruiter. 4 out of 5 Final Fours is crazy difficult, especially when that talent is that young (but the youth is mitigate by insane talent).

It's tough to be a great coach with a young team too. With that said, I still think Cal could have mimicked what Duke and Wisconsin were doing by the end of the year. College basketball last season was about having good floor spacing...get 4 shooters to go along with a post player. Hell, Wisconsin could put 5 shooters on the floor. Did Bo Ryan outcoach Cal, yeah, probably a little but it was his pick of recruits and strategy that won the game. UK had the roster to play like that but Cal didn't let Towns or Lyles get comfortable at the 3 point line all season. We could have surrounded a big with 4 shooters and had MUCH MUCH better spacing in that game. We could have taken advantage of size mismatches, had better driving lanes..etc..etc.. In the 2nd half, Wisconsin backed off and we just drove right into 4 defenders... I didn't like it.

Rule changes will change the game this season. Look what happened to Virginia last night. But last season, the most dangerous teams other then UK were Notre Dame, Wisconsin, and Duke. UK was dangerous because of their length - but I think the style of play from the previous 3 mentioned was more effective. Don't get me started on UK not mixing in zone - I think Cal should have done that as well.

I still think Cal is an excellent coach. He has oversimplified his offense and defense though.

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 02:32 PM
UK fan here, and I agree with this......

Great post, I appreciate the insider perspective from the UK side.

What is your take on Poythress? Will he have the last laugh in a Wildcat uniform and have a great senior year? The last time our two teams played, he had a really good game and looked like a lottery pick. Of course, bad injuries can change all that.

Kedsy
11-17-2015, 02:35 PM
yep. when your recruits are that much more talented. the draft numbers show that.

I'd say it's incredible that he's ONLY managed to win 1 in 5 years given the talent...and the nature in which his teams go out is very telling as well. Further, the final fours are almost a non-starter in my opinion. They waltz over an easy bracket given by their gaudy record against a terrible league, and then run into a talented team in the elite 8 or final 4 and lose...every year but 1. When it comes time to actually have a plan and play intelligent basketball, their record is not stellar.

Give his teams to K or Izzo, or stevens, or brey, and you're looking at 2-3 titles easy.

I think what Ichabod meant is you sold Cal short by calling him only a "good" recruiter, when clearly he is a "great" recruiter.

As far as "waltz over an easy bracket," that's exactly what UNC fans said about Coach K when he went to all those Final Fours in the 80s and 90s. Besides, if it were so easy to make four Final Fours in five years, more people would do it. Even though Duke has had top recruiting classes and multiple NBA players on his roster in the last five years, we've only been to one FF in the time Cal has made four. If you want to go back six years, Coach K made two FFs out of six, plus an Elite 8, while Cal has made four FFs plus an E8. Expanding beyond K and Cal (though not really), since John Wooden retired in 1975, only [i]two coaches have managed to make four Final Fours in six years. Guess who they were?

And as for the idea that "only" winning one championship in five Final Fours is somehow a poor accomplishment, come on. We all know the most talented team rarely wins the championship. In the 37 years since the Tournament expanded from 32 teams, the #1 team has only won 5 championships. Also, Cal has made six Final Fours, not five -- I'm guessing you're discounting his 1996 FF with UMass because that team wasn't super-talented, so it didn't fit your narrative?

And, by the way, Coach K only won one championship in his first five Final Fours. And Mike Brey has only been past the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament twice in his 15 years at Notre Dame -- are you serious when you say he'd do better than Cal with Cal's teams?

Look, I don't really like Cal, and I think his accomplishments should probably be discounted by his (probable) cheating, but it's hard to argue against him based on his teams' accomplishments on the court.

duke09hms
11-17-2015, 02:46 PM
Also, Cal has made six Final Fours, not five -- I'm guessing you're discounting his 1996 FF with UMass because that team wasn't super-talented, so it didn't fit your narrative?


Actually only 4 Final Fours, how would one discount something that doesn't exist?

That said, he's a great coach. We've all seen uber-talented Duke teams fall short of the FF: 2002, 2006, 2013.

Kedsy
11-17-2015, 02:50 PM
Actually only 4 Final Fours, how would one discount something that doesn't exist?

Disagree. He made those Final Fours. I was there at both of them and saw him on the sidelines. The fact that they were forfeited afterwards doesn't change that.

mccollums
11-17-2015, 02:50 PM
Great post, I appreciate the insider perspective from the UK side.

What is your take on Poythress? Will he have the last laugh in a Wildcat uniform and have a great senior year? The last time our two teams played, he had a really good game and looked like a lottery pick. Of course, bad injuries can change all that.

He's probably 90% back physically, 70% back mentally. Just a guess. I know a few posters here have an opinion that he was "mismanaged" by Cal. Maybe last year which was only a month before the injury, when Cal tried to make him a 3. Some players are just not "natural" basketball players and I just don't think he has a natural feel for the game. If it was so easy to develop the natural instincts that some players possess then the NBA would be littered with a TON of Stephon Currys, Chris Pauls, Tim Duncans etc.etc.. ... he's an excellent athlete that needs to play with energy and fly around. I don't think he can be counted on every game to be productive from a stats prospective. He is excellent defensively though. He has the quickness to stay with guards and even though he doesn't have elite length, he's a really good shot blocker because of his vertical.

One thing I noticed in the exhibition games is his shot mechanics have improved since the injury. Last season his jump shot was awful, he basically brought the ball behind his head and threw it at the goal... anytime you bring the ball back that far you lose the power of your legs and you have to "fling" it. His mechanics look simplified this season and his accuracy in the exhibitions games was much improved. He's only taken one 3 in the 2 real games and missed it badly though, but I'm hoping that was more nerves. I'm also hoping the old form does not return.

Overall outlook is I think he'll have a few really good games when the ball bounces his way... and he'll have plenty of games where he's not much of a factor. This is more of an outlook on what he produces offensively....

I love the kid though. From everything I've heard about him he's a quality person. Good student and great demeanor.

77devil
11-17-2015, 03:08 PM
I believe so too. Calipari gets thrown under the bus here at DBR for his coaching, but he is a really good coach and a phenomenal recruiter. 4 out of 5 Final Fours is crazy difficult, especially when that talent is that young (but the youth is mitigate by insane talent).

4 out 6 while at KY, an accomplishment nonetheless though he's probably cheating. Calapari's first coaching gig was an assistant at KU during the Larry Brown era. He learned to cheat from an expert.

BD80
11-17-2015, 03:31 PM
In my opinion you are greatly undervaluing what it takes to make it to the final four and win a championship.

Well, it is harder now than it was in the 60s (if you were west of the Mississippi)

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 03:47 PM
FWIW, the opening line on Duke-Kentucky favors the Wildcats by 4 1/2 points --

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/odds/las-vegas/

We'll see how that line moves (if it does) in the next 24 hours. My guess is that by tipoff, Kentucky will be a 2 1/2 point favorite.

Nice to be the underdog for a change.

Most of the lines on your link have moved to UK -1 or -1.5. The $ seems to be coming in on the Duke side. There are so few known quantities in this match-up that it is really hard to predict what the heck is going to happen.

Olympic Fan
11-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Disagree. He made those Final Fours. I was there at both of them and saw him on the sidelines. The fact that they were forfeited afterwards doesn't change that.

I think most of us would agree that the fact they were VACATED (not forfeited) does change that.

moonpie23
11-17-2015, 04:02 PM
I can confidently say that their fans want this win MUCH more than we do.

good thing that the 'fans wanting it MUCH more than we do" has little to do with the actual play during the game...


I'm looking at allen, zoubs, matt and amile to show that they've been on the big stage....


then there's that other guy....K

brevity
11-17-2015, 04:03 PM
Actually only 4 Final Fours, how would one discount something that doesn't exist?


Disagree. He made those Final Fours. I was there at both of them and saw him on the sidelines. The fact that they were forfeited afterwards doesn't change that.


I think most of us would agree that the fact they were VACATED (not forfeited) does change that.

Unless the NCAA has its own DeLorean, it can rewrite history, but not erase it.

Kedsy
11-17-2015, 04:03 PM
I think most of us would agree that the fact they were VACATED (not forfeited) does change that.

Maybe most of us Duke fans (although if so, I guess I'm in the minority on that), but I'm fairly certain the other schools' fans would disagree. Either way, if you're talking about coaching acumen, as opposed to propensity to cheat, Cal made the Final Four, both in 1996 and 2008. Anything done after the fact (no matter what you call it) can't change the actual history.

luvdahops
11-17-2015, 04:04 PM
Disagree. He made those Final Fours. I was there at both of them and saw him on the sidelines. The fact that they were forfeited afterwards doesn't change that.

I agree. I would add that at a recent dinner with Bob Hurley Sr, Coach Hurley was very complimentary about Calipari's coaching abilities, and especially noted his work with Karl-Anthony Towns in developing a post game. KAT played his HS ball in Jersey, and apparently had quite a rep (per Hurley Sr) for floating around the perimeter on offense, and shying away from contact at both ends. Though KAT was always a highly regarded talent, Cal legitimately claim credit for expanding and improving his game.

Kedsy
11-17-2015, 04:04 PM
I'm looking at allen, zoubs, matt and amile to show that they've been on the big stage...

Do you mean Marshall? Or are you expecting Brian Zoubek to make a surprise comeback?

uh_no
11-17-2015, 04:24 PM
Do you mean Marshall? Or are you expecting Brian Zoubek to make a surprise comeback?

not until we play maryland again....

NYBri
11-17-2015, 05:00 PM
Been thinking about this game and it feels different...weird... somehow. Two top teams...but...who are they and how good are they?

I think it has to do with the fact that both teams are recognizable in name only. Duke and Kentucky...in that the turnover has been so dramatic that they have no personalities yet. Trying to remember back to last year's early games and how I felt then, and it wasn't until mid December that I felt I knew the team's character.

As a result, I have no idea what is going to happen tonight. It's like opening the season with the final 4.

I know that by Thanksgiving, I'll have a better bead on the team, but right now, tonight, it just feels weird. Almost like I'm rooting for the jerseys and not the guys in them.

Am I being weird, or does anyone else feel the same way?

Billy Dat
11-17-2015, 05:09 PM
Am I being weird, or does anyone else feel the same way?

Yes, I do.


There are so few known quantities in this match-up that it is really hard to predict what the heck is going to happen.

As there is no more navel gazing DBR move then to quote oneself, thank you for the opportunity.

I don't feel, perhaps, quiet as alienated in terms of "rooting for laundry" as I have been getting a good feel for this team through the 2 exhibitions and first 2 games but, aside from Grayson taking it to the hole and Amile and Matt playing some solid defense, I really don't know what else will happen. The prospect is very exciting, a new star may be born tonight.

Steven43
11-17-2015, 06:10 PM
A couple things that might tip the balance towards Duke:

A 100% Matt Jones that shuts down either Ulis or Murray would go a long way towards victory. Hoping Matt can play 35 minutes on Tuesday if needed.

Kentucky's been turning the ball over at a high rate so far, and Duke looks like a team that can force turnovers this year. Likewise, Amile and Marshall might be able to out-muscle Skal and Lee on the boards. Some "extra" possessions via turnover or o-boarding could swing a close game.

Umm, you are going to be disappointed if you think Matt Jones has the quickness to stay with Tyler Ulis.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-17-2015, 06:37 PM
Good luck tonight in a big game.

This will be the first chance for me to see both teams this season. I'm particularly interested in seeing Ingram for the first time and the Murray kid and Skal L. from KY that everyone seems to be so high on.

subzero02
11-17-2015, 06:58 PM
UK's recent wave of animosity stems from our 2010 national title run.... watching us thoroughly beat down the team that eliminated them must have been a terrible experience :-).

COYS
11-17-2015, 07:02 PM
UK's recent wave of animosity stems from our 2010 national title run... watching us thoroughly beat down the team that eliminated them must have been a terrible experience :-).

Only to have it happen again this past year . . .

Also, while Calipari has had some serious succes at UK, Duke still has two titles to UK's 1 during his tenure. That also has got to sting a bit.

Troublemaker
11-17-2015, 07:02 PM
Umm, you are going to be disappointed if you think Matt Jones has the quickness to stay with Tyler Ulis.

Perhaps, but I do believe that a healthy Matt Jones is a great, savvy defender and may be able to figure some things out to defend effectively even when facing a quickness deficit.

Being of nimble mind, Matt might not think of playing defense solely in terms of staying in front of the ball-handler, for example. He might think to deny him the ball in the first place.

Coach K, also being of nimble mind, might think to help Matt with this task (if he's even assigned to Ulis) by implementing a soft zone press + trap in the backcourt so that Ulis has to give the ball up. From there, it'd be up to Matt to play denial defense on Ulis for the rest of the possession.

-jk
11-17-2015, 07:06 PM
DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

COYS
11-17-2015, 07:15 PM
Being of nimble mind, Matt might not think of playing defense solely in terms of staying in front of the ball-handler, for example. He might think to deny him the ball in the first place.



A quick aside, Duke had had teams that were phenomenal at this in the past. We often don't think of the 2008 team as a great Duke team, but it overcame a serious size deficit (Freshman Songlet played C for many of the minutes) to be a top 10 defensive team (according to KenPom) by denying entry passes into the post with impressive tenacity. In fact, that team was ultimately undone not by a big team that out muscled them, but a team in WVU that beat them at their own game by playing small ball.

I say all this to support your idea that a savvy MATT Jones who forces Murray to work to get the ball and if he does get it, to leave him with more work to do before he can score would be an extremely effective defender. A skilled offensive player will score against the best defenders. Better to minimize his overall chances.

Tucknut
11-17-2015, 07:27 PM
Oh, joy. :( Didn't really need to see Seth Greenburg tonight but oh well..

Olympic Fan
11-17-2015, 07:34 PM
Maybe most of us Duke fans (although if so, I guess I'm in the minority on that), but I'm fairly certain the other schools' fans would disagree. Either way, if you're talking about coaching acumen, as opposed to propensity to cheat, Cal made the Final Four, both in 1996 and 2008. Anything done after the fact (no matter what you call it) can't change the actual history.

It's easy (well, a lot easier) to win when you don't follow the rules. Saying Cal deserves credit for the two Four Fours that were vacated is like saying a bank robber should be allowed to keep his illegal profits.

... of course, that is just the argument at UNC-cheat, so what do I know -- maybe there are other schools' fans that think cheating to win titles is just fine.

I do actually think he's a first-rate coach, but I also think he's an obnoxious rationalizer who claims credit for things he didn't invent (the dribble-drove offense; the stretch four), who tells us that having five players drafted in the first round was the greatest night in Kentucky basketball history (even if his team did choke in the regional finals) ... that he'd rather have been 39-1 last season than win the national title ... that he lost last year on purpose to Wisconsin to protect the mediocre Harrison twins (BTW, how did playing them down the stretch in that game help their NBA chances?) ... that the only reason that K keeps beating him in recruiting is because of his advantage as the US National team coach ...

Obviously, not mu favorite guy ...

Tucknut
11-17-2015, 07:37 PM
Ok, getting tired of those white unis. Was cool last year but white Duke letters do not stand out enough.

FerryFor50
11-17-2015, 07:48 PM
Holy crap, Plumlee has all 9 of Duke's points right now. BIZZARO WORLD

kAzE
11-17-2015, 07:49 PM
I'd just like to state for the record that before today, I was already on the "MP3 is a NBA player" bandwagon.

CDu
11-17-2015, 07:58 PM
I'd just like to state for the record that before today, I was already on the "MP3 is a NBA player" bandwagon.

That's fine. He still isn't an NBA player.

That said, I will gladly take his 9 points and 4 offensive rebounds so far.

CDu
11-17-2015, 08:10 PM
Allen struggling with UK's size so far.

CDu
11-17-2015, 08:20 PM
Some seriously low-quality shooting in this game.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 08:21 PM
Seniors playing like seniors. So far, we've got nothing else.

BlueandWhite
11-17-2015, 08:27 PM
Some seriously low-quality shooting in this game.

Grayson will get it going in the 2nd half....encouraging to see Duke make a few jumpers in a row. Great game for Plums!

jipops
11-17-2015, 08:27 PM
Terrible matchup for Grayson. His entire game is predicated on driving the ball. He's not long enough to get off a decent look against this front line.

Still, we're hanging in there against a team that is superior athletically.

53n206
11-17-2015, 08:27 PM
Allen off. Need help from young guys, Bad last possession. If we can shoot better we can win

fgb
11-17-2015, 08:30 PM
Terrible matchup for Grayson. His entire game is predicated on driving the ball. He's not long enough to get off a decent look against this front line.

terrible matchups happen. he will learn how to recognize those, and not force it. right now he seems impatient, not letting the game come to him.

wavedukefan70s
11-17-2015, 08:32 PM
Plumlee good everything else needs work.could be worse.we can win this game .

Potato Head
11-17-2015, 08:33 PM
Terrible matchup for Grayson. His entire game is predicated on driving the ball.

Today it sure seems to be. He can rain it from three but after being rejected 3 times at the rim that's out the window. Need to get him an easy layup and hope that he can get going from the perimeter.

Devilwin
11-17-2015, 08:35 PM
Tuesday will definitely be a good test to see if Grayson can live up to all of the hype

So far, not so much.

FerryFor50
11-17-2015, 08:35 PM
I don't think it's any accident that the young guys are not playing great - likely putting too much pressure on themselves.

Hopefully the nerves settle.

kAzE
11-17-2015, 08:36 PM
Grayson has no in between game. He seems to only want to finish at the rim or from outside. Needs to develop a floater or pull up game.

CDu
11-17-2015, 08:36 PM
terrible matchups happen. he will learn how to recognize those, and not force it. right now he seems impatient, not letting the game come to him.

Yeah, the problem for Allen is that he is kind of a one-trick pony. If you can take away his driving angles, he is very limited. That isn't always easy to do, but UK has done it. Teams with length whose bigs don't drift will give Allen problems.

Not impressed with either team's offense so far. UK has three PGs and we have none. That has been the difference.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 08:37 PM
Marshall has been really bad in transition defense. I think we need Kennard and Grayson to have a double digit half to win this one. Thornton's defense is real. That's good to see. He's cut off Ulis dribble drives repeatedly. Can't navigate a pick n roll to save his life, but that is hard for everyone.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 08:37 PM
Plumlee with 11 and 8, and 5 blocks at halftime. Pretty sure that is his best half of basketball. That stat line would also challenge most of his full games up until this point.

arnie
11-17-2015, 08:38 PM
Today it sure seems to be. He can rain it from three but after being rejected 3 times at the rim that's out the window. Need to get him an easy layup and hope that he can get going from the perimeter.

Interesting that the two seniors and Matt playing well, everyone else really struggling. When you've seen this stage before, a lot easier to slow the game down in your head. Bet Ingram takes off in 2nd half - but doubt we win.

jipops
11-17-2015, 08:39 PM
Last year's freshmen practically an aberration. What we're seeing from Ingram, Kennard, Thornton is more of the norm from freshmen. And Grayson playing inexperienced as well.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 08:40 PM
At halftime, will Jay Williams address his pre-game comments that this game will be played in the 90s or 100s?

Halftime score 37-31

CDu
11-17-2015, 08:41 PM
Grayson has no in between game. He seems to only want to finish at the rim or from outside. Needs to develop a floater or pull up game.

Also not a creative dribbler. Basically, he is a set shooter or he relies on "downhill scoring." There is no deception, no change of pace, and as you said no in-between game.

jipops
11-17-2015, 08:42 PM
Not impressed with either team's offense so far. UK has three PGs and we have none. That has been the difference.

True dat, triple true. How our pg(less) play evolves will be interesting to watch this season.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 08:44 PM
Interesting that the two seniors and Matt playing well, everyone else really struggling. When you've seen this stage before, a lot easier to slow the game down in your head. Bet Ingram takes off in 2nd half - but doubt we win.

Matt Jones took possibly the worst shot of the half for Duke. I would not say that his play has been as good as Amile's or Marshall's.

I thought Derryck Thornton (2-3 FG, 1-1 3PT) played just as well as Matt Jones (3-7 FG, 1-3 3PT).

Wheat/"/"/"
11-17-2015, 08:44 PM
Halftime comments...

Nice half by Plumlee. Great energy and effort...played his game.
Good effort by Jefferson too.

Impressed by KY's defensive quickness on the wings. The ball pressure took away any rhythm Allen, Jones, Thornton and Kennard could get going.

Surprised we didn't see Ingram more involved. I could tell right away he can handle the ball great at his size, but coach K sat him and decided to go small. I think with UK's pressure on the ball, he thinks they can drive it better with the smaller guys...but they have not been able to finish.

If UK starts boxing out the boards, it will be difficult for Duke to win this one.

jipops
11-17-2015, 08:50 PM
This could start getting out of hand. We're out-classed right now.

WakeDevil
11-17-2015, 08:53 PM
Allen's fifteen minutes of fame are up.

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2015, 08:53 PM
You know the game's not going well when Wheat shows up to post.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 08:54 PM
Allen's fifteen minutes of fame are up.

Weak. He's having a bad game, as are several of our players.

CDu
11-17-2015, 08:54 PM
The dangers of reading too much into glorified exhibitions. The offensive limitations are really showing. If Allen can't outathlete the opponent or if Ingram can't outlong them we are in trouble. If it weren't for the three upperclassmen, this would be a blowout. UK's underclassmen are playing WAY better than our underclassmen tonight.

dukelion
11-17-2015, 08:55 PM
This could start getting out of hand. We're out-classed right now.

Definitely showing lack of energy. Who's the emotional leader of this team outside of Plumlee?

Disappointing on so many levels.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 08:55 PM
We are just about at the chalking this up to a learning experience point.

Edouble
11-17-2015, 08:58 PM
We are just about at the chalking this up to a learning experience point.

I hope the team does not share your opinion with almost half of the game left.

CDu
11-17-2015, 09:03 PM
Impressed with Thornton. He has scored off the dribble and also gotten both Kennard and Allen wide open looks.

jipops
11-17-2015, 09:04 PM
We are just about at the chalking this up to a learning experience point.

Actually, I think we're showing pretty good fight right now. This despite being out athlete-ed (that a term?) in the paint and UK's pg's out quicking everyone.

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2015, 09:05 PM
2-16 so far for our best 2 scorers and down by 9 to the #2 ranked team. Could be worse. On the other hand, KY doesn't look all that impressive to me either. On the other hand, I think college basketball overall is down this year.

jipops
11-17-2015, 09:05 PM
Impressed with Thornton. He has scored off the dribble and also gotten both Kennard and Allen wide open looks.

He's a scoring guard in a pg's body. Would be nice if he could run an offense. Hopefully he'll get there sooner than later.

downeastdad
11-17-2015, 09:09 PM
Longer, quicker and luckier are beating hustle so far, but I've no doubt that K can change that in the next couple of months. Great game by MP3 and Amile. Jay should have taken his bathrobe off before predicting 90-100, and Seth is every bit as poor a commentator as he was a coach.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 09:12 PM
I hope the team does not share your opinion with almost half of the game left.

Neither do I. But it does not look good. Grayson is looking a lot like the college basketball version of Ronda Rousey right now.

CDu
11-17-2015, 09:12 PM
Longer, quicker and luckier are beating hustle so far, but I've no doubt that K can change that in the next couple of months. Great game by MP3 and Amile. Jay should have taken his bathrobe off before predicting 90-100, and Seth is every bit as poor a commentator as he was a coach.

Nothing lucky about this, and I would say they are winningthe hustle game too.

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2015, 09:15 PM
I've learned that Ingram can apparently knock upperclassmen Kentucky players to the deck. Twice now. Maybe, he's stronger than he looks.

Dukehky
11-17-2015, 09:15 PM
I'd be shocked if this wasn't the worst game of Ingram's life.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 09:17 PM
Ingram, Allen, and Kennard have 9 points combined. No chance we ever win with that stat line.

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2015, 09:17 PM
Juniors/seniors: 12/16

Freshmen/sophomores: 5/26

The problem is, our natural scorers are the young guys.

The Wolves aren't using Tyus, right?

CDu
11-17-2015, 09:17 PM
I've learned that Ingram can apparently knock upperclassmen Kentucky players to the deck. Twice now. Maybe, he's stronger than he looks.

The lesson? Don't push off if the defender is there. Don't give them a chance to flop.

SCMatt33
11-17-2015, 09:18 PM
I haven't looked at the box score, but I can't imagine Duke has many assists right now. Outside of Jefferson and Plumlee, this team doesn't appear to have developed much chemistry yet. Throw in the fact that they're getting out hustled and it actually a pretty good sign that they haven't been run out of the building. Certainly no guarantee that the chemistry ever comes, as we've seen in some other years, but they probably have until New Years to find it. If it's not getting there by conference play, there are just too many games in too short of a time to realistically get it.

wavedukefan70s
11-17-2015, 09:19 PM
We need a point guard badly or a leaderv.doesn't look like we set the offense all that well.

arnie
11-17-2015, 09:25 PM
Nothing lucky about this, and I would say they are winningthe hustle game too.

Think Kentucky is simply better team now - better athletes for sure. Our free throw shooting is atrocious - don't want to know how many points we've thrown away.

cato
11-17-2015, 09:28 PM
I just checked the calendar, and it is still November.

I just checked the roster, and did not see Jah, Jabari, Cook or Tyus.

Maybe we should give this team a bit to find itself?

wavedukefan70s
11-17-2015, 09:31 PM
12 of 21 wow

Edouble
11-17-2015, 09:33 PM
I just checked the calendar, and it is still November.

I just checked the roster, and did not see Jah, Jabari, Cook or Tyus.

Maybe we should give this team a bit to find itself?

Did you see Winslow on there anywhere, by chance?

SCMatt33
11-17-2015, 09:33 PM
I just checked the calendar, and it is still November.

I just checked the roster, and did not see Jah, Jabari, Cook or Tyus.

Maybe we should give this team a bit to find itself?

A little, but it looks like they've never played together. If you want to be truly elite, you need to develop chemistry in September and October, and fine tune it through out the season. They don't even look like there running offense right now. That being said, it could just be a night where everything went wrong. We'll see. But if this is truly where they are chemistry-wise, it's not a good sign.

kAzE
11-17-2015, 09:33 PM
Murray is better than some NBA point guard starters right now. What a beast.

barjwr
11-17-2015, 09:34 PM
Really hope the upperclassmen can teach these talented freshmen what teamwork and Duke basketball is all about very soon

cato
11-17-2015, 09:37 PM
Did you see Winslow on there anywhere, by chance?

I did check twice, just in case.

J4Kop99
11-17-2015, 09:38 PM
Really makes you appreciate Tyus Jones that much more.

cato
11-17-2015, 09:40 PM
A little, but it looks like they've never played together. If you want to be truly elite, you need to develop chemistry in September and October, and fine tune it through out the season. They don't even look like there running offense right now. That being said, it could just be a night where everything went wrong. We'll see. But if this is truly where they are chemistry-wise, it's not a good sign.

Kentucky looks long, quick and strong. Pretty safe to say this group has never played someone like this. I'll withhold judgment for the time being.

Coballs
11-17-2015, 09:45 PM
Ingram and Kennard need to learn from this and grow up quickly.