MBB: Duke 113, Bryant 75 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[JNort]

Matt Jones: Splendid shooting night and his defense speaks for itself. Didn't force anything and played very much under control. Resulted in career high 19 points.

Grayson: The man again. Career high 28 and 1 point shy of Duke record for most points in 2 opening games. Prob to early but POTY candidate as of now.

Ingram: So smooth and his shot was finally falling. He still needs more weight but should be fine going forward if he remains guarding wings. Would like to see him get more separation on his shots but he is so long it doesn't usually matter. Curious to see how he does against bigger foes.

Amile: Big Smooth picked up where he left off yesterday. All over the glass and getting buckets around the rim. Double double.

Marshall: Great defensively because he alters so many shots and it resulted in 3 blocks today. Bryant isn't very big but it's nice to see anyway. Offensively he still puts the ball to low but should get by.

Luuuke: Shooting motion is so smooth and fast don't think we can keep him on the bench going forward. Had my doubts before the season started but man he looks like he belongs. Also got a few steals in today.

Thornton: He will prob cause many headaches for us fans all year but man I see the potential. Lighting quick with good handle but his shot selection is puzzling so far. Love him on defense, he is very pesky and disrupts passing lanes well. I see us needing him later on against faster guards (Cat Barber comes to mind).

Jeter: Is a very hyped up guy, could become a great vocal leader later on. Knows how to play the team game well and doesn't force anything. Hard to tell much about him as of now though.

Vrank!!!!: I know he was much bigger than Bryant but I think I have developed a man crush on him in the few minutes he got in today. His hands had glue on them I swear, he never bobbled a pass and didn't hesitate with the ball in his hands. Constantly was fighting for position and defensively he jumped a passing lane to deflect a pass. Seems to have great instincts.

[kAzE]

This team is riveting television right now. These games are SO high paced and action packed, it's impossible to tear my eyes away.

Here are my initial thoughts some of our guys:

Grayson Allen: He looks like a different guy out there. He's MUCH stronger than last year now (look at those chiseled shoulders) and is dominating at the rim, and putting on an absolute clinic in going hard in the paint. It seemed like every time he went to the drive, he either scored or got fouled. He has a chance to average 20 points per game if he keeps this up, and I think we're all hoping he can stay healthy playing tons of minutes with this style of play. It seems like he's diving for every loose ball and challenging every shot in the paint in addition to his exploits on offense, and I fear for his safety at all times. Coach K needs to keep his minutes reasonable this year. He can't possibly do this every game and make it to the postseason at 100%.

Amile Jefferson: He's averaging a double double and also looks stronger. It seems like the added muscle is helping out his game, both in rebounding and finishing inside. Still waiting to see what he looks like against real big men, but I'm cautiously optimistic. He's been very productive.


Matt Jones: Save some of that for Tuesday . . . .

Brandon Ingram: There's the shooting stroke . . . . whew. Having not watched either exhibition game, I was getting a bit worried after game 1, but I think he's the real deal. He's played about half and half at the 3 and 4 so far and is getting of a LOT of open looks from 3 when matched up with bigger defenders. His versatility allows the team to play in tons of different ways. Unfortunately, he's just not strong enough to defend the paint right now, but he creates a HUGE mismatch offensively. I think we'll be playing him at the 4 a little less against elite competition, but I think if we're down big, the small lineup can put up points in a hurry, and it's a great option to have.

Marshall: He's about 80% of the way there. He has all the physical tools to be an elite defensive center, but is still making some pretty bad mistakes in terms of positioning. However, he has been an effective rim protector against this weak competition. We will learn more on Tuesday. Just 1 thing though: can we just stop trying to post him up? That is never going to be even a top 3 option on offense with all of our weapons.

Derryck Thornton: I thought he showed some flashes of what he could become, but he still looked a bit timid at times and he made a few poor decisions on drives. Still think he will start at some point this year, but he's not ready yet.

Luke Kennard: Here we go . . . this guy is electric. He and Grayson are absolutely 2 of the most exciting players in the country right now. I think we're going to see a 30 point game at some point this year from Luke. He's an absolutely GREAT scorer, and you can tell he can create from himself and score at all three levels. I'm no longer worried about a lack of playmakers, because when this guy is on the floor, he pushes the ball and makes plays. We gotta come up with a nickname for him and Grayson. This is LEGIT and DEEP backcourt.

Chase Jeter: Physically, he looks like he's still growing into that frame, but once he fills out, I think he's going to be a great low post scorer. He's got excellent touch even at this early stage, and I'm excited to see him develop. Love the emotion too.

[S_West30]

Strong outing overall from the guys with Kentucky up next on Tuesday. My takeaways from the game:

-This may be obvious, but Allen looks like a complete player this year. I doubted that he would be able to live up to the immense amount of pre-season hype he had surrounding him, but through two games, he has made me look silly. He's been able to score in a myriad of ways whether it be his unparalleled slashing ability, 3's, or trips to the charity stripe. Combine that with his rebounds, occasional assists and steals, and you have a clear number one option on a top 5 team.
-Marshall seems to be way too over aggressive on defense. This may be a coaching decision to have him and Jeter over-play passing lanes on the perimeter, but it looks like a strategy that isn't worth the risks, especially once Duke gets to tougher competition (namely Kentucky). Bryant was only able to hurt them on backdoor or slashing cuts a few times tonight, but when the competition is much stiffer in the future it could be a major defensive issue.
-Thornton is out of control when he's going to the basket, especially when in transition. He's always 100 mph which ends in him taking errant, off-balance shots in close. Expectations need to be tempered for him considering he hasn't even been on campus 4 months yet, but I believe as the season goes by he'll get more and more acclimated to the college game.
-Matt Jones looks fantastic on offense, both shooting threes and occasionally driving to the basket. Streakiness in his shooting stroke has been his weakness in the past, will that change? Only time will tell, but he is off to a great start.
-Transition offense is strong as usual, and considering it has been a staple of Duke and Coach K basketball for years, this comes as no surprise. This year's team may be better than years' past because of the sheer number of guys that can take it coast to coast.
-Brandon Ingram is a jack of all trades on the court. His Kevin Durant-esque frame (from his Texas days) is one that will be beneficial on both sides. On offense he will be able to get off shots over bigs/shot-blockers that not many others could. On defense his wingspan will allow for him to cut off passing lanes and get steals, and he will be a key rim protector by blocking shots and making guys adjust in midair to try and get their shots over his long arms.
-Kennard is not being asked to do much by the coaching staff, but he makes minimal mistakes and is crafty in getting open off the ball, strong in transition, and of course, has a sweet stroke. Can't wait to see what kind of player he turns into down the line.
-Sean Obi was a no-show tonight. It's still a mystery to me as to why he can't seem to get playing time. Is he in the dog house? Did we overestimate his talents? My theory is a combination of both talent and his playing style of a bruising, slower big not fitting the up-tempo style K likes to play. Either way, I hope he gets his chance to show what he has this season, the potential for him to be a good ACC big man is there.

Numbers to note:
-Duke won the rebounding margin by 16 (43-27)
-Duke had 14 steals as compared to Bryant's one
-4 of the 5 starters were in double figures with Marshall just missing the cut with 8 points

Obviously these first couple games have to be taken with a grain of salt, but since this is all we've seen out of the team up to this point, we have to judge them based on it. I'm impressed with how K has been able to completely transform the identity of the team this year. They certainly have a long way to go, but there is no reason to think they're not a true contender this year. Hopefully they will follow suit Tuesday.

Go Blue Devils!

[JNort]

Also like to note that we are looking good as a team from the free throw line shooting 74% early. Not really any liabilities at the lone like we usually have. Also wanna mention Vrank again, dude can run well for his size. He reminds me of what I expected from Zoubek coming out of high school

[Billy Dat]

JNort, kAzE and S_West30 had good summaries.

The defense will be a work in progress to some degree as everyone learns their role, but Bryant shot 50% from the floor and 3, hit 13 3s and still lost by 40. We crushed them and it was never, ever close. We forced 19 turnovers and only gave away 6 in a high possession game.

With Grayson, Brandon, Matt, Luke, and, hopefully, Derryck, we have plenty of shooting.

Derryck is playing too fast, but you can see the talent and there is really no pressure to start him because the other guys can bring the ball up and give us different looks.

The announcers talked about how we are driving a lot of take advantage of the new hand check rules which they assume will be called closely early in the season. Smart.

Ingram is developing a patented move, drive right to the elbow, spin back and rise up for the unblockable 15 footer.

Bring on Kentucky and let's see where we're at.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Amile and Marshall seem to have signed a pact. It's almost like they had a meeting somewhere along the line and agreed that while neither of them is an Okafor, working together they can create one. Ya gotta love 'em.
Love, Ima

Go Devils! Beat Kentucky!

[Olympic Fan]

Not much to add to the excellent points made so far, but allow me these minor observations:

-- In addition to his 28 points, Grayson had six assists. He might have had six Friday night (he had two) -- the difference was that tonight when he drove and kicked it out, the guys made the shots. After two games, he leads the team in scoring AND assists. He also had a blocked shot tonight!

-- One question about the defense -- Duke have up 13 3-pointers and 13-of-26 3-point shooting (50 percent). Was that bad 3-point defense or was Bryant just insane from 3? Remember, Siena hit 7 of 16-3s Friday night. That means Duke's opponents have hit 20 of 42 3s in two games. If that keeps up (either volume or percentage), we're going to be in trouble.

-- FWIW, Duke also hit 13 of 26 3s. The Bryant coach admitted that after watching Duke struggle from 3-point range against Siena, he decided to gamble on Duke having another bad outside shooting game and pack things in to stop the drive. They had some success with that early, but when Duke started to hit 3s, they spread at little and Duke (mostly Grayson and Brandon) began to slice and dice.

-- On the other hand, Duke forced 19 turnovers (36 in two games). A lot of those are steals. Kennard, Ingram and Jefferson all have four steals in two games. Matt Jones has 3.

-- I have no idea why Obi didn't play, but K did say that he held Matt Jones out most of the second half as a precaution. No re-injury, but Matt's practice was limited last week by his groin pull. No question K needs him fresh for next week -- Kentucky Tuesday in Chicago, VCU Friday night in New York, then either Georgetown of Wisconsin Sunday in New York.

BTW: Our schedule just got a bit weaker with Georgetown losing its opener to Radford. That means that the two teams that will be competing Friday night to face Duke Sunday both loss their openers to very weak teams. Neither will be ranked next week.

[BigZ]

Amile and Marshall seem to have signed a pact. It's almost like they had a meeting somewhere along the line and agreed that while neither of them is an Okafor, working together they can create one. Ya gotta love 'em.
Love, Ima

Go Devils! Beat Kentucky!

I can def see Amile and Marshall being a better version of Big Z and Lance.

[NYBri]

Hard not to like what we've seen in the last two days, but it's been a little like watching an extended scrimmage.

We'll know much more about the team and where we need to go after this coming week for sure.

[Billy Dat]

-- In addition to his 28 points, Grayson had six assists. He might have had six Friday night (he had two) -- the difference was that tonight when he drove and kicked it out, the guys made the shots. After two games, he leads the team in scoring AND assists. He also had a blocked shot tonight!

-- One question about the defense -- Duke have up 13 3-pointers and 13-of-26 3-point shooting (50 percent). Was that bad 3-point defense or was Bryant just insane from 3? Remember, Siena hit 7 of 16-3s Friday night. That means Duke's opponents have hit 20 of 42 3s in two games. If that keeps up (either volume or percentage), we're going to be in trouble.

-- I have no idea why Obi didn't play

Re: Grayson assists
I noticed it too. He really has a complete game. I live the way he competes above all else. The stories out of last year were that this was the kind of practice player he was so one imagines that those practices were hotly contested.

Re: 3s
I have to say that last night I felt like they hit a ton of well contested 3s. With our interior size, teams may go at us from 3. It is definitely something to monitor.

Re: Obi
It may not be time to wave the white flag, but since the start of practice there has not been one sign that Sean is going to be a rotation player. The Vrank non-redshirt is particularly damning. Who knows why, but I think he's shaping up as the first non-impact K transfer.

[NashvilleDevil]

Re: Grayson assists
I noticed it too. He really has a complete game. I live the way he competes above all else. The stories out of last year were that this was the kind of practice player he was so one imagines that those practices were hotly contested.

Re: 3s
I have to say that last night I felt like they hit a ton of well contested 3s. With our interior size, teams may go at us from 3. It is definitely something to monitor.

Re: Obi
It may not be time to wave the white flag, but since the start of practice there has not been one sign that Sean is going to be a rotation player. The Vrank non-redshirt is particularly damning. Who knows why, but I think he's shaping up as the first non-impact K transfer.

Obi's 14-15 wardrobe alone makes him an impact transfer.

[Saratoga2]

Re: Grayson assists
I noticed it too. He really has a complete game. I live the way he competes above all else. The stories out of last year were that this was the kind of practice player he was so one imagines that those practices were hotly contested.

Re: 3s
I have to say that last night I felt like they hit a ton of well contested 3s. With our interior size, teams may go at us from 3. It is definitely something to monitor.

Re: Obi
It may not be time to wave the white flag, but since the start of practice there has not been one sign that Sean is going to be a rotation player. The Vrank non-redshirt is particularly damning. Who knows why, but I think he's shaping up as the first non-impact K transfer.

Grayson style of play reminds me of that of Aaron Craft. That is a compliment as Aaron was very active and tough, had a good handle and could get to the basket and make his foul shots. The hope is that Grayson won't get injured due to his very aggressive style of play.

Vrank has the size and mobility to be a factor in games. Others have noticed he has good hands. He just needs time and experience to reach his potential. Will it surpass that of Sean? Maybe. Will he also surpass that of Marshall this year? Probably not, but it bears watching. At least we have several big men to avoid foul trouble.

[sagegrouse]

BTW: Our schedule just got a bit weaker with Georgetown losing its opener to Radford. That means that the two teams that will be competing Friday night to face Duke Sunday both loss their openers to very weak teams. Neither will be ranked next week.

If there were a just outcome, Western Illinois and Radford would go to NYC for the 2K Classic, instead of the teams they beat, Wisconsin and Georgetown.

[DukieTiger]

I've enjoyed the thoughtful recap posts on this thread!

To add my .02 about the 3pt defense, I agree with whomever said that it seemed like our opponents were hitting a lot of contested 3's. I thought, especially last night, we did a really good job contesting 3 pt shots. I saw several guys pulling a "Battier" with a hand right in the face of shooters. Guys were just hitting shots for Bryant last night.

KenPom has written about it, and this board has discussed that 3pt % defense is something defenses have relatively little control over. Duke's always been great about running teams off the 3pt line and in the KenPom era (since 2002) they have not had a season where opponents have attempted more than 28% of their shots from 3 point range. Our first two opponents attempted around 35% of their shots from 3 (and obviously made a bunch of them). If either of those trends continue, it will be an interesting year.

However, I do wonder if Duke's defensive focus and strengths will look a little different this year. As of yet, it seems to be a team that will force turnovers and mix up defensive styles with its length- taking away easy shots at the rim and *possibly* doing a better job taking away the drive than other recent teams have done.

A couple of other observations:

1) It's early, but it looks like this team will play at a much faster pace than recent years. I know some of that is the rule changes, but it looks like a personnel thing too. Relative to other teams, Duke is about 100 spots higher in pace ranking compared to last year, which tells me it's not just the rule changes. Something to keep an eye on.

2) Also something I'll be watching- do our apparent strengths play out against elite competition? It's hard to say against mid-major or lesser quality teams, but it looks like this year's team will hang its hat on controlling the boards, getting to the FT line, forcing turnovers while taking care of the ball, and protecting the rim/paint with its length while attacking the rim on the offensive end. Will they be able to play to those strengths against a Kentucky? Or more importantly, will they have developed enough to play to those strengths in ACC play?

It's going to be a fun year to watch them develop- all of the freshmen really have room to grow, but especially with Thornton, Ingram and Jeter there is a lot of upside as they get more comfortable and learn. I only leave Luke out because he is fairly polished already.

[Atldukie79]

It looks to me that there is a conscious effort to amp up the pressure defense with both full court pressure and overplaying man to man this year. No surprise that style yields steals and turnovers. But I thought we actually left 3 point shooters open quite often as we scrambled to recover on defense. That many of the 3's Bryant took were contested was testament to our closing out on them. The team will assess risk/reward on playing a disruptive/frantic style of defense as opposed to a more conservative, stay between your man and the basket style of defense. Clearly we have the athletic composition on this team to wreak havoc with pressure. This should be fun.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If there were a just outcome, Western Illinois and Radford would go to NYC for the 2K Classic, instead of the teams they beat, Wisconsin and Georgetown.

Speak for yourself... I think they should adopt this "higher seeds move on" strategy for the first week of the NCAS tournament as well. Have 64/68 teams, play the first few rounds, then invited the Sweet 16 based on seeds 1-4 regardless of the outcomes of the first week.

This way, you still get the upsets and buzzer-beaters, but then your marketable "marquee" programs are assured if sticking around into the second weekend. Schools can go ahead and make travel plans, fans can buy tickets, and low seeds can unburden themselves of those pesky championship aspirations and get back into the classroom where they belong.

[hopefully unecessary big eye roll]

Seriously though, what a dumb system.

Back to topic - I agree that this team is going to be a blast to watch. Amile seems to have a whole new bag of tricks, as though this was destined to be thr finished product all along. Also really like what a vocal leader he has become. I feel K has really impressed that upon him.

MP3 has more confidence while seemingly trying to do less. A lazy commentator might call it "playing within himself."

Grayson looks to be the best-case scenario from all possibilites coming out of last year.

Matt Jones appears to be the poster child for not knee-jerk transferring when you aren't getting minutes. He clearly learned a ton last year on both ends of the court and looks ready to take his rightful spot.

Of course the freshmen all look great and it will be fun to see how they develop, but I confess to being particularly partial to our experiences players at this point in the season. One of my favorite story arcs from years past is when a veteran "gets it" and a guy you have been rooting for finally clicks into place. For all the pomp and ability of an Austin, Jabari, or a Jah, there's satisfaction of a different sort watching a Zoubek, Carrawell, Nate James, Quinn Cook, etc.

At any rate, this team is unlikely to go undefeated or possibly even win the ACC, but they sure do look like they will be fun to watch, and if they gel the way they certainly could, then they could win a ton of games.

[tbyers11]

If there were a just outcome, Western Illinois and Radford would go to NYC for the 2K Classic, instead of the teams they beat, Wisconsin and Georgetown.

Western Illinois is not involved in the 2K classic, they were just an early season patsy scheduled by Wisconsin. Wisconsin's 2K games are Siena tonight and Prairie View A&M on 11/25 (after the 2K finals!).

I agree with your main point that a tournament should be a tournament and not just a collection of games. However, I can see the other side ($$$) of the equation. My wife and I have planned a long weekend vacation of going to NYC next week around the Duke games. If Duke lost to Bryant last night and couldn't go to NYC I would be more than a bit upset

[uh_no]

Western Illinois is not involved in the 2K classic, they were just an early season patsy scheduled by Wisconsin. Wisconsin's 2K games are Siena tonight and Prairie View A&M on 11/25 (after the 2K finals!).

I agree with your main point that a tournament should be a tournament and not just a collection of games. However, I can see the other side ($$$) of the equation. My wife and I have planned a long weekend vacation of going to NYC next week around the Duke games. If Duke lost to Bryant last night and couldn't go to NYC I would be more than a bit upset

One of the main reasons they do this is because teams are limited to 30 (I think that's the number) regular season games PLUS an in season tournament. So if you call random games part of your "in season tournament," it doesn't count against your total.

It's these games that have allowed teams to get up to 39-40-41 games in a year, as opposed to the old 36-37.

Obvioulsy there's advertising money too...

[Potato Head]

MP3 much improved, looks like Zoubek out there.

Said it after last game and I'll say it again: Ingram will be inconsistent on offense, and that's okay, because he's a great defender already with the potential to become an elite defender. The emergence of Grayson as primary scorer is great since it means Ingram doesn't have to do as much on offense.

Yeah, Thornton hasn't learned that he's not going to get free layups every time at this level, and he's really going to learn it on Tuesday. I'm not super worried about it as long as he's made some changes by conference time.

[Troublemaker]

-Sean Obi was a no-show tonight. It's still a mystery to me as to why he can't seem to get playing time. Is he in the dog house? Did we overestimate his talents? My theory is a combination of both talent and his playing style of a bruising, slower big not fitting the up-tempo style K likes to play. Either way, I hope he gets his chance to show what he has this season, the potential for him to be a good ACC big man is there.

Yes, my guess is footspeed as well. Duke is asking our big men to do so many things covering the entire length of the court, both defensively (participate in full-court and half-court traps, for example) and offensively (run the court with the guards to initiate early offense and gather putback dunks if the shot goes up quick, for example).


I can def see Amile and Marshall being a better version of Big Z and Lance.

That's a tall order, especially wrt Zoubek, who was a great college big man his senior year.


The Vrank non-redshirt is particularly damning. Who knows why, but I think [Obi's] shaping up as the first non-impact K transfer.

The bolded phrase should not be a surprise. EKB is a very statistically-inclined forum, so I was tickled pink by all the offseason comments along the lines of "Coach K has NEVER had a non-impact transfer, so yada" based on a sample size of 3. If Coach had brought in, say, 15 transfers previously, would he have gone 15-for-15? Likely not, right?

And if Coach had brought in 1,000 transfers previously, perhaps only 667 of them would've been impact transfers, establishing a baseline Impact Transfer Rate (ITR) of 66.7% for Coach K. Still a good rate (I think), but it would hardly be surprising when a transfer falls into the 33% bucket rather than the 67% bucket. Going 100% (3-for-3) previously may have just been luck.


Grayson style of play reminds me of that of Aaron Craft.

Grayson's going to get a lot of James Harden comparisons by basketball announcers this season at the rate he's drawing fouls. And I kind of like it. The James Harden of college basketball.



However, I do wonder if Duke's defensive focus and strengths will look a little different this year. As of yet, it seems to be a team that will force turnovers and mix up defensive styles with its length- taking away easy shots at the rim and *possibly* doing a better job taking away the drive than other recent teams have done.

If we continue to play the amount of zone that we've played so far, there definitely will be fewer drives and more 3-pt attempts given up. My sense of it, though, is that a lot of the zone play these past two games was for experimentation and for resting legs with the back-to-back games.

Against Kentucky, I would put the over/under of minutes of zone played at 4. We'll still see zone, but m2m will be the staple.

[Troublemaker]

Wait, I have a sudden feeling that I forgot a transfer.

Let's see.

Roshown.
Dahntay.
Seth.
Rodney.

Okay, 4-for-4 then. My bad. I think my point still stands, though.

[sagegrouse]

Western Illinois is not involved in the 2K classic, they were just an early season patsy scheduled by Wisconsin. Wisconsin's 2K games are Siena tonight and Prairie View A&M on 11/25 (after the 2K finals!).

I agree with your main point that a tournament should be a tournament and not just a collection of games. However, I can see the other side ($$$) of the equation. My wife and I have planned a long weekend vacation of going to NYC next week around the Duke games. If Duke lost to Bryant last night and couldn't go to NYC I would be more than a bit upset

Oops! I knew I had a mistake in there. What about Georgetown-Radford?

[dukelifer]

It was a good idea to schedule back to back games to start the season. Team looked more cohesive. Lots of interchangeable players which will be important because I expect a lot of foul trouble early in the season. Allen will drive hard all season and needs to stay healthy. He is a weapon from the line. I like Ingram playing down low. He has a huge advantage down there with his length. The kid is unique and will be a star, but he is not physically mature yet. Kennard is a very smart player and he is half a season away from being able to put up big numbers. His shooting is elite. Jeter is an energy guy and is more than capable to spell the big guys. Thornton is definitely behind but he too will improve rapidly. He needs to learn what he can and cannot do at this point. Vrankovic is a big kid who moves well. He will be a help during the season as Plumlee has shown a tendency to foul. Vrankovic must be playing better than Obi in practice. This team has potential but learning to play together is key.

[kostar]

Question for the forum - Now I've only seen the highlights, I didn't get to watch any of the games yet but all the highlights and scores on drives from Grayson that I've seen have been from going to his right. Anyone else a little bit concerned with him not being able to show a left? Or has he shown a left and I've just not been able to see any of it.

[tbyers11]

Oops! I knew I had a mistake in there. What about Georgetown-Radford?

Yes, Radford is in the field.

According to this article (http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2015/7/14/8925213/2015-2k-classic-bracket-projection-scheduling-teams-history), each of the 4 NYC 2K classic teams (Duke, Wisconsin, Georgetown and VCU) play 2 of the following 4 teams at home (Siena, Bryant, Radford and Prairie View A&M). These 4 "lesser" teams then play each other in a 2 game tournament next weekend hosted by Bryant.

[jipops]

We're kind of an odd team right now. We really don't have a point guard (Thornton is just not there at this time) and very little in the way of a low post threat (against some teams Amile can be effective here but he is it). All we really have are slashers who drive and kick with one or two other guys screening and going for the board. The style of play is certainly fitting for the personel but it's going to have its limitations.

[JBDuke]

Question for the forum - Now I've only seen the highlights, I didn't get to watch any of the games yet but all the highlights and scores on drives from Grayson that I've seen have been from going to his right. Anyone else a little bit concerned with him not being able to show a left? Or has he shown a left and I've just not been able to see any of it.

IIRC, he has gone to his left several times. He's better going right - and thus has made for better highlight footage. And he certainly prefers going right, so there are more drives to choose from. And sometimes when going left, he switches to his right hand to make the shot. But he has gone left and put up shots with his left hand and made a few.

IMO, it seems he's worked on going left to try and keep defenses honest, but he's not reached a point where he's as comfortable or as capable with it. We'll see how things go when he faces better defenders.

[NSDukeFan]

Question for the forum - Now I've only seen the highlights, I didn't get to watch any of the games yet but all the highlights and scores on drives from Grayson that I've seen have been from going to his right. Anyone else a little bit concerned with him not being able to show a left? Or has he shown a left and I've just not been able to see any of it.

Austin Rivers was first team all-ACC that way. Hopefully, the same will be true for Grayson. Sometimes if you're good enough, it doesn't matter if the defense knows what's coming.

[dukelifer]

Question for the forum - Now I've only seen the highlights, I didn't get to watch any of the games yet but all the highlights and scores on drives from Grayson that I've seen have been from going to his right. Anyone else a little bit concerned with him not being able to show a left? Or has he shown a left and I've just not been able to see any of it.

As noted- he has shown an ability to finish going left several times in both games. He looks very strong. He is clearly better with his right hand but he he fully capable of going left with strength. The kid is explosive, much stronger than last year and is money from the line. That is a very good combination.

[jimsumner]

Wait, I have a sudden feeling that I forgot a transfer.

Let's see.

Roshown.
Dahntay.
Seth.
Rodney.

Okay, 4-for-4 then. My bad. I think my point still stands, though.

Four is a small sample size. But it's not a random four. It's not like these guys just showed up at K's door and asked if they could come in and show him a demo cassette. They were carefully vetted and the decision was made to pursue them.

And all four of these guys became All-ACC players and all four became NBA players. K had never gone after a transfer just to provide depth or a practice player or a project.

So, it was logical to assume that Obi at the very least had that kind of potential. It's clear now that that assumption was incorrect. But it doesn't mean it was wrong at the time. IMO.

And no, I do not know if Obi was a paradigm changer or just a misevaluation.

[Olympic Fan]

IIRC, he has gone to his left several times. He's better going right - and thus has made for better highlight footage. And he certainly prefers going right, so there are more drives to choose from. And sometimes when going left, he switches to his right hand to make the shot. But he has gone left and put up shots with his left hand and made a few.

IMO, it seems he's worked on going left to try and keep defenses honest, but he's not reached a point where he's as comfortable or as capable with it. We'll see how things go when he faces better defenders.

Grayson's first basket against Bryant was a drive to his left that he finished with a beautiful left-handed tear-drop. Yeah, he's about 75/25 right/left on his drives, but he sometimes finishes his drives to th eright with his left hand and sometimes finishes his drives to the left with his right hand.

This question reminds me of something from a long time ago. UCLA's John Wooden flew all the way cross country to scout John Lucas at Hillside High. He watched one game, then decided not to pursue Lucas, telling a reporter "He can only go to his left." I asked Bucky Waters (the Duke coach at the time) about that quote and his response was, "Yeah, he only goes left, but even though everybody knows that, nobody can stop him going left."

(PS Coaches could talk about recruits and the recruiting process in those ancient days).

[FireOgilvie]

Four is a small sample size. But it's not a random four. It's not like these guys just showed up at K's door and asked if they could come in and show him a demo cassette. They were carefully vetted and the decision was made to pursue them.

And all four of these guys became All-ACC players and all four became NBA players. K had never gone after a transfer just to provide depth or a practice player or a project.

So, it was logical to assume that Obi at the very least had that kind of potential. It's clear now that that assumption was incorrect. But it doesn't mean it was wrong at the time. IMO.

And no, I do not know if Obi was a paradigm changer or just a misevaluation.

This was discussed when he transferred, but watching Obi play in his freshman year at Rice, there was really nothing to suggest that he would be a game-changer like any of the other transfers, who came in very highly touted AND had NBA potential. Obi's rebounding numbers were very good, but those that looked deeper saw that he was putting up those numbers not only because of his knack for rebounding, but also because he played with a bunch of short guys on one of the worst teams in the country. In addition, he has a style of play that maximizes rebounding: he stays near the basket and plants himself on the floor in position to get the miss, which simultaneously sacrifices his ability to defend the rim. He has good hands and reflexes and he's very strong, which we've seen at Duke as well, but physically he had extremely slow feet and played completely below the rim. Those last two are very difficult to change. I'm sure there have been improvements, but he was never the athletic/physical marvel that most of our big men recruits have been, and I don't think many people who saw him play thought he'd be more than a role player. However, he seems like an awesome kid who works very hard and we all heard the talk about how he helped Okafor improve last year, so we should all be happy to have him.

[Kedsy]

Luuuke: Shooting motion is so smooth and fast don't think we can keep him on the bench going forward.


Luke Kennard: Here we go . . . this guy is electric. He and Grayson are absolutely 2 of the most exciting players in the country right now. I think we're going to see a 30 point game at some point this year from Luke. He's an absolutely GREAT scorer, and you can tell he can create from himself and score at all three levels.


Kennard is not being asked to do much by the coaching staff, but he makes minimal mistakes and is crafty in getting open off the ball, strong in transition, and of course, has a sweet stroke.


Kennard is a very smart player and he is half a season away from being able to put up big numbers. His shooting is elite.

Those are from this thread; in other threads, people have compared him to JJ Redick as a shooter and scorer. And I don't completely get it.

Observationally, Luke seems to have a fairly consistent shooting stroke, but he doesn't completely square his body. His left shoulder is out in front. So his motion doesn't look nearly as textbook as JJ's or Andre Dawkins's. Not even close.

Statistically, Luke shot just 25% on three-point shots in our first two games. He currently ranks 4th on the team in eFG% and 4th in true shooting percentage. He is 5th on the team in scoring per 40 minutes (6th if you count Antonio), 5th in oRtg (again 6th if you count Antonio), and 7th in PER (8th if you count Antonio). In the exhibitions he was 7th in eFG% and 6th in ts% (8th and 7th if you count Nick Pagluica's 11 minutes), and 4th in scoring per 40 minutes. And it's not like he's pulling a JJ, shooting from 40 feet with three guys yanking on his shirt. Far as I can tell, most of Luke's shots appear to have been fairly open looks.

I'm not anti-Luke, he's looked pretty good out there when he's played. And I hope and guess he has a pretty bright future. He has offensive skills and should be a solid rotation player this season. But he certainly hasn't played like a star so far and his shooting hasn't been "elite," so I don't quite understand all the glowing praise.

What am I missing?

[Troublemaker]

So, it was logical to assume that Obi at the very least had that kind of potential. It's clear now that that assumption was incorrect. But it doesn't mean it was wrong at the time. IMO.

Oh, I agree it was VERY logical and not wrong at the time. Hopefully I'm expressing my thoughts correctly -- if not with the previous post, then with this post.

My criticism of the Obi-Optimists isn't a harsh one -- it's not, "You guys were being wholly illogical and wrong."

It's a soft criticism -- "You guys gave a little bit too much respect to the 4-for-4 stat and might've missed some contraindications."

For example, if Obi were an impact transfer, why is Duke pursuing Marques Bolden so hard in the 2016 class? And why did we flirt with Caleb Swanigan for awhile in the 2015 class? If Obi were an impact transfer that could at least be a great backup center this season or next season, I'm not sure those pursuits would've been made.

[MChambers]

I'm not anti-Luke, he's looked pretty good out there when he's played. And I hope and guess he has a pretty bright future. He has offensive skills and should be a solid rotation player this season. But he certainly hasn't played like a star so far and his shooting hasn't been "elite," so I don't quite understand all the glowing praise.

What am I missing?
His hair?

[FireOgilvie]

Those are from this thread; in other threads, people have compared him to JJ Redick as a shooter and scorer. And I don't completely get it.

Observationally, Luke seems to have a fairly consistent shooting stroke, but he doesn't completely square his body. His left shoulder is out in front. So his motion doesn't look nearly as textbook as JJ's or Andre Dawkins's. Not even close.

Statistically, Luke shot just 25% on three-point shots in our first two games. He currently ranks 4th on the team in eFG% and 4th in true shooting percentage. He is 5th on the team in scoring per 40 minutes (6th if you count Antonio), 5th in oRtg (again 6th if you count Antonio), and 7th in PER (8th if you count Antonio). In the exhibitions he was 7th in eFG% and 6th in ts% (8th and 7th if you count Nick Pagluica's 11 minutes), and 4th in scoring per 40 minutes. And it's not like he's pulling a JJ, shooting from 40 feet with three guys yanking on his shirt. Far as I can tell, most of Luke's shots appear to have been fairly open looks.

I'm not anti-Luke, he's looked pretty good out there when he's played. And I hope and guess he has a pretty bright future. He has offensive skills and should be a solid rotation player this season. But he certainly hasn't played like a star so far and his shooting hasn't been "elite," so I don't quite understand all the glowing praise.

What am I missing?

I've watched Luke play in something like 12 games now including HS, and he's always a bit streaky in his shooting/scoring. He scores in bursts; he'll be kind of quiet and then score 10 points in a few minutes. The past two games, he hasn't been aggressively looking for his own shot and the rest of the team has done a pretty poor job of getting him the ball in position to shoot, particularly in the first half last night. Look at the +/- and you'll see that he's our top all-around freshman right now (by a lot). He does way more than scoring and he has a great feel for the game.

[Potato Head]

Obi-Optimists

We're called Obtimists.


I've watched Luke play in something like 12 games now including HS, and he's always a bit streaky in his shooting/scoring. He scores in bursts; he'll be kind of quiet and then score 10 points in a few minutes. The past two games, he hasn't been aggressively looking for his own shot and the rest of the team has done a pretty poor job of getting him the ball in position to shoot, particularly in the first half last night. Look at the +/- and you'll see that he's our top all-around freshman right now (by a lot). He does way more than scoring and he has a great feel for the game.

He reminds me of Chris Mullin. Needs to get way better on D and get more experience, but I think that's the type of player he could become.

[lotusland]

Four is a small sample size. But it's not a random four. It's not like these guys just showed up at K's door and asked if they could come in and show him a demo cassette. They were carefully vetted and the decision was made to pursue them.

And all four of these guys became All-ACC players and all four became NBA players. K had never gone after a transfer just to provide depth or a practice player or a project.

So, it was logical to assume that Obi at the very least had that kind of potential. It's clear now that that assumption was incorrect. But it doesn't mean it was wrong at the time. IMO.

And no, I do not know if Obi was a paradigm changer or just a misevaluation.

I obviously don't know either but Duke needs stability guys so it seems like deliberately bringing
in a transfer to play a Josh Hairston type role is not a bad idea. Duke is fortunate to have brought in young guys who play well and move on quickly. Sometimesthe other guys transfer for more playing time. Being a good student, Obi may be OK getting a Duke degree, playing an effective, if limited role, and maybe winning a championship.

[jimsumner]

Those are from this thread; in other threads, people have compared him to JJ Redick as a shooter and scorer. And I don't completely get it.

Observationally, Luke seems to have a fairly consistent shooting stroke, but he doesn't completely square his body. His left shoulder is out in front. So his motion doesn't look nearly as textbook as JJ's or Andre Dawkins's. Not even close.

Statistically, Luke shot just 25% on three-point shots in our first two games. He currently ranks 4th on the team in eFG% and 4th in true shooting percentage. He is 5th on the team in scoring per 40 minutes (6th if you count Antonio), 5th in oRtg (again 6th if you count Antonio), and 7th in PER (8th if you count Antonio). In the exhibitions he was 7th in eFG% and 6th in ts% (8th and 7th if you count Nick Pagluica's 11 minutes), and 4th in scoring per 40 minutes. And it's not like he's pulling a JJ, shooting from 40 feet with three guys yanking on his shirt. Far as I can tell, most of Luke's shots appear to have been fairly open looks.

I'm not anti-Luke, he's looked pretty good out there when he's played. And I hope and guess he has a pretty bright future. He has offensive skills and should be a solid rotation player this season. But he certainly hasn't played like a star so far and his shooting hasn't been "elite," so I don't quite understand all the glowing praise.

What am I missing?

Of the four key freshmen, I think Kennard was the most nervous in the opener. Not exponentially more nervous. But I think he was tight and he was pressing. Improvement in game two and I would expect that improvement to continue.

So, that could be what you were missing.

[Des Esseintes]

We're called Obtimists.



He reminds me of Chris Mullin. Needs to get way better on D and get more experience, but I think that's the type of player he could become.

In a similar way, he reminds me of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. He needs to get way better at statecraft and expelling Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire, but I think otherwise they're good comps.

Also reminds me a lot of Nightcrawler, if Luke develops his teleportation somewhat.

[duke74]

Grayson's going to get a lot of James Harden comparisons by basketball announcers this season at the rate he's drawing fouls. And I kind of like it. The James Harden of college basketball.

But can he even shave yet? Looks like he's 12. :)

[Potato Head]

In a similar way, he reminds me of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. He needs to get way better at statecraft and expelling Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire, but I think otherwise they're good comps.

Also reminds me a lot of Nightcrawler, if Luke develops his teleportation somewhat.

So you don't think Luke is a good shooter with good instincts? Or do you just hate player comps?

[dukelifer]

Those are from this thread; in other threads, people have compared him to JJ Redick as a shooter and scorer. And I don't completely get it.

Observationally, Luke seems to have a fairly consistent shooting stroke, but he doesn't completely square his body. His left shoulder is out in front. So his motion doesn't look nearly as textbook as JJ's or Andre Dawkins's. Not even close.

Statistically, Luke shot just 25% on three-point shots in our first two games. He currently ranks 4th on the team in eFG% and 4th in true shooting percentage. He is 5th on the team in scoring per 40 minutes (6th if you count Antonio), 5th in oRtg (again 6th if you count Antonio), and 7th in PER (8th if you count Antonio). In the exhibitions he was 7th in eFG% and 6th in ts% (8th and 7th if you count Nick Pagluica's 11 minutes), and 4th in scoring per 40 minutes. And it's not like he's pulling a JJ, shooting from 40 feet with three guys yanking on his shirt. Far as I can tell, most of Luke's shots appear to have been fairly open looks.

I'm not anti-Luke, he's looked pretty good out there when he's played. And I hope and guess he has a pretty bright future. He has offensive skills and should be a solid rotation player this season. But he certainly hasn't played like a star so far and his shooting hasn't been "elite," so I don't quite understand all the glowing praise.

What am I missing?

No - his shot is not a pure looking as JJ's or Andre's. But neither are the shots of Steph Curry or Reggie Miller. Kennard has a very quick release and can hit his shot from multiple places on the court. Redick in his first year was mostly and outside bomber. Kennard's shot is not textbook but very effective. He has shown his ability to shoot in the pre-season (25 against Livingstone) and of course his entire high school career. The sample size is way too small to start comparing to JJ Redick. I have seen him have a bunch of hustle plays and good decisions in the first few games that rarely get mentioned. He has been the star in high school (albeit not against the best competition) and is adjusting to his new role coming off the bench. In his first real game he was 4-8 and yesterday 5-9 are solid numbers. His 3 pt shooting will come based on what I have seen- but of course we thought that of Matt Jones. Note that Trajan Langdon was 5-20 in his first three games and he turned out to be a very good shooter- some might even say elite. The biggest surprise is that Kennard looks to be able to create his shot better than Matt Jones or Andre Dawkins at the same times in their Freshman careers. Time will tell if he will score like in high school- but I have seen enough to be hopeful that the kid can shoot the ball.

[dukelifer]

But can he even shave yet? Looks like he's 12. :)

Grayson with Harden's beard? Someone needs to photoshop that!

[slower]

In a similar way, he reminds me of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. He needs to get way better at statecraft and expelling Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire, but I think otherwise they're good comps.

Also reminds me a lot of Nightcrawler, if Luke develops his teleportation somewhat.

Maybe Wooderson without the mustache.

[weezie]

In a similar way, he reminds me of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. He needs to get way better at statecraft and expelling Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire, but I think otherwise they're good comps.

Only on a Duke board....:cool:

[Indoor66]

But can he even shave yet? Looks like he's 12. :)

He doesn't have to shave; Hardin doesn't!

[OldPhiKap]

In a similar way, he reminds me of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. He needs to get way better at statecraft and expelling Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire, but I think otherwise they're good comps.

Also reminds me a lot of Nightcrawler, if Luke develops his teleportation somewhat.


Only on a Duke board...:cool:

At least no one compared him to Woodrow Wilson, all hell would break loose.

[Kedsy]

No - his shot is not a pure looking as JJ's or Andre's. But neither are the shots of Steph Curry or Reggie Miller. Kennard has a very quick release and can hit his shot from multiple places on the court. Redick in his first year was mostly and outside bomber. Kennard's shot is not textbook but very effective. He has shown his ability to shoot in the pre-season (25 against Livingstone) and of course his entire high school career. The sample size is way too small to start comparing to JJ Redick. I have seen him have a bunch of hustle plays and good decisions in the first few games that rarely get mentioned. He has been the star in high school (albeit not against the best competition) and is adjusting to his new role coming off the bench. In his first real game he was 4-8 and yesterday 5-9 are solid numbers. His 3 pt shooting will come based on what I have seen- but of course we thought that of Matt Jones. Note that Trajan Langdon was 5-20 in his first three games and he turned out to be a very good shooter- some might even say elite. The biggest surprise is that Kennard looks to be able to create his shot better than Matt Jones or Andre Dawkins at the same times in their Freshman careers. Time will tell if he will score like in high school- but I have seen enough to be hopeful that the kid can shoot the ball.

There is no possible sample size in which Luke's shooting (or scoring) can or will be favorably compared to JJ Redick's. Or probably Trajan Langdon's, either, for that matter.

Obviously two games and eight three-point shots is too small a sample to make any conclusions. I only brought up his current shooting percentages because people in this thread were anointing Luke an "elite shooter" and an "absolutely GREAT scorer" with a "sweet stroke" who "we [can't] keep on the bench going forward" and is one "of the most exciting players in the country right now," when what I see is a young kid with potential and a somewhat unorthodox shooting style who is currently sixth on the team in scoring per 40 minutes and is shooting 25% from distance.

[BD80]

At least no one compared him to Woodrow Wilson, all hell would break loose.

Come on, Woody was no where near as athletic as Luke. Good handle, but would usually go left. Big difference was court vision: Woody tended to have tunnel vision, looking too far ahead. Trying to start his own league ... SMH.

[FireOgilvie]

There is no possible sample size in which Luke's shooting (or scoring) can or will be favorably compared to JJ Redick's. Or probably Trajan Langdon's, either, for that matter.

Obviously two games and eight three-point shots is too small a sample to make any conclusions. I only brought up his current shooting percentages because people in this thread were anointing Luke an "elite shooter" and an "absolutely GREAT scorer" with a "sweet stroke" who "we [can't] keep on the bench going forward" and is one "of the most exciting players in the country right now," when what I see is a young kid with potential and a somewhat unorthodox shooting style who is currently sixth on the team in scoring per 40 minutes and is shooting 25% from distance.

He's better than these past 2 games 3pt shooting stats would suggest, that's what everyone is saying. You see the Livingstone game where he hit 6/11 from 3? He shot 53% from 3 his senior year of HS. He's a really good shooter.

[FireOgilvie]

There is no possible sample size in which Luke's shooting (or scoring) can or will be favorably compared to JJ Redick's. Or probably Trajan Langdon's, either, for that matter.

Obviously two games and eight three-point shots is too small a sample to make any conclusions. I only brought up his current shooting percentages because people in this thread were anointing Luke an "elite shooter" and an "absolutely GREAT scorer" with a "sweet stroke" who "we [can't] keep on the bench going forward" and is one "of the most exciting players in the country right now," when what I see is a young kid with potential and a somewhat unorthodox shooting style who is currently sixth on the team in scoring per 40 minutes and is shooting 25% from distance.

Freshman JJ Redick had games where his 3pt were 1-5, 1-4, 1-6, 2-10, 0-4, 1-4, 0-3, 1-11. He also scored single-digit points 10 times that year. In the end, he averaged 15 pts, while shooting 41.3% from the field, and 39.9% from 3. Sophomore JJ opened the season 5-22 3pt across 4 games. Let's wait and see what happens.

[vick]

Freshman JJ Redick had games where his 3pt were 1-5, 1-4, 1-6, 2-10, 0-4, 1-4, 0-3, 1-11. He also scored single-digit points 10 times that year. In the end, he averaged 15 pts, while shooting 41.3% from the field, and 39.9% from 3. Sophomore JJ opened the season 5-22 3pt across 4 games. Let's wait and see what happens.

I think that's exactly what Kedsy is saying--wait and see, we don't yet know. The reality is sometimes even very good high school shooters take time to adapt to the speed and athleticism of college defenders--Ryan Kelly, who like Kennard won the McDonald's three-point contest, took basically until his junior year to be a valuable three-point shooter at Duke. Others, like Redick, were ready sooner. We'll find out soon enough.

[Tripping William]

At least no one compared him to Woodrow Wilson, all hell would break loose.


Come on, Woody was no where near as athletic as Luke. Good handle, but would usually go left. Big difference was court vision: Woody tended to have tunnel vision, looking too far ahead. Trying to start his own league ... SMH.

We do have our own Jefferson, though, and I'm thinking he's less overrated than POTUS #3.

[Troublemaker]

Also reminds me a lot of Nightcrawler, if Luke develops his teleportation somewhat.

I admire your ability to make basketball player comparisons that crosses the usual boundary of skin color. Wagner would be quite literally a Blue Devil in appearance, which I'm sure was your point. Good comp.

[NSDukeFan]

Come on, Woody was no where near as athletic as Luke. Good handle, but would usually go left. Big difference was court vision: Woody tended to have tunnel vision, looking too far ahead. Trying to start his own league ... SMH.

This just shows how difficult it can be to compare players who played at different times. They rarely had one and done at that time. Whole different ballgame.

[timmy c]

Grayson with Harden's beard? Someone needs to photoshop that!
Doesn't look to bad...
5708

[OldPhiKap]

This just shows how difficult it can be to compare players who played at different times. They rarely had one and done at that time. Whole different ballgame.

Any truth to the story that when Wilson defeated Charles Evans Hughes in '16, Hughes complained bitterly about "rent-a-Presidents?"

Plus, there was no three point shot when Wilson was ballin' so as you say, really hard to compare.

[NSDukeFan]

Any truth to the story that when Wilson defeated Charles Evans Hughes in '16, Hughes complained bitterly about "rent-a-Presidents?"

Plus, there was no three point shot when Wilson was ballin' so as you say, really hard to compare.

Is it Grayson or Kennard that will compete with Wilson for most hated ever? Of course, that's only by part of the population.

What if Duke guys aren't going to be most hated anymore as more and more people come to respect what coach K is doing and Blue Planet keeps showing what good student athletes these guys are?

[dukelifer]

There is no possible sample size in which Luke's shooting (or scoring) can or will be favorably compared to JJ Redick's. Or probably Trajan Langdon's, either, for that matter.

Obviously two games and eight three-point shots is too small a sample to make any conclusions. I only brought up his current shooting percentages because people in this thread were anointing Luke an "elite shooter" and an "absolutely GREAT scorer" with a "sweet stroke" who "we [can't] keep on the bench going forward" and is one "of the most exciting players in the country right now," when what I see is a young kid with potential and a somewhat unorthodox shooting style who is currently sixth on the team in scoring per 40 minutes and is shooting 25% from distance.

I am assuming Vrankovic is in that top scoring per 40 minute list - at 32 pts per 40 minutes (with a 100% FG percentage) and an amazing 32 rebounds per 40 minutes. . So based on early analysis - using stats only- I think we should be playing Vrank much more. He could be the best player on the team by a wide margin.

[sagegrouse]

Is it Grayson or Kennard that will compete with Wilson for most hated ever? Of course, that's only by part of the population.

What if Duke guys aren't going to be most hated anymore as more and more people come to respect what coach K is doing and Blue Planet keeps showing what good student athletes these guys are?

Prediction: Grayson will not be hated like other Duke players, and it's because of his off-the-charts athleticism. I mean, the hatred for Bobby and JJ was just plain physical jealousy among the unwashed, pimpled-faced geeks at other schools: "I could have done that." Ain't no one in the opposing stands gonna say that about Grayson.

Luke Kennard is another matter. What may keep things civil is that he is already looking thirtyish. It may at least change the vocabulary.

Kindly,
Sage

[Newton_14]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

So this is more of an overall assessment than just this one game, but I like this team (having seen them 3 times now, twice in person). And I will pause to remind everyone to embrace these times, and appreciate just how good things are right now. Fresh off Title number FIVE, tons of talent in the stable, and one of the best recruiting classes since last year coming in next season (I keed) (Wait, I only half keed. The Four last year and the Killer B's of old were pretty darn strong.) But yes, next year is top notch.

This team reminds me very much of the 2000 team where a wealth of talent left and a wealth of talent came in. It feels strange/surreal almost, to look on the floor and have to remind yourself over and over whom you are watching. The heart and soul of the team is Matt/Amile, and both have improved and expanded their games. Matt looks like a seasoned vet marching his young troups in the battle, but wise enough to know on offense, while he will get his for sure, the money makers are Grayson and Ingram. I know its early vs weak comp but 27ppg, with 3 seriously nasty dunks in two straight games is strong. Ingram is a freak of nature and those freaky skills will get him a minimum of 6 points per game alone and 1 or 2 steals. Just by being so different. On the nights when he is hitting from the outside he is just going to kill you. But Grayson is clearly The Guy who will get the ball when points are needed desperately. If the ref's remain consistent he is going to destroy the new freedom of movement rules and live at the rim and line. (Yes naysayers, I realize the competition and the fact that tougher defenses are ahead. I get it. Don't spoil my party here).

The thing that jumped out at me in both games, is how much better they can be. The biggest issue by far by my eyes, is chemistry on both ends of the floor. (The Product of, obviously) the infusion of so many new faces. It appears to me that there isn't a single "terrible" individual player, but there are a lot of mistakes being made in the team defense as guys are learning on the fly trying to figure out where to be and when. That should improve over time. It shows more on offense that defense right now, but in the upcoming big games it will likely show up more on offense too. So patience is required.

As for the rotation, just go ahead and book the 4 Vets as the top 4 guys for the foreseeable future anyway. With Brandon, Kennard, Thornton, and Jeter rounding it out in that order, but I think with those last 3 guys due to "youngness" they will pass each other back and forth on varying nights. All 3 are talented but need time to improve and reach a level where K will trust them on the floor in the 2nd Half of Big games. We will play 8 guys Tuesday but in the 2nd Half, I will be surprised to see more than 7, barring foul trouble or injury.

Can they get away with not playing a true PG in big games? Maybe, but teams will for certain try to exploit that. I am anxious to see K play Ingram at the Point when Thornton sits. Matt and Grayson are capable, but without a true PG or post scoring threat, they will have to space well and shoot well to overcome that. Spacing and shooting will open up drive opportunities for Grayson, Brandon, and Matt.

I like Thornton a lot, but it is just going to take time for him to grow. Same for the team. If ever there was a Duke team that should get better each Phase of the season, it is this one.

So bring on Kentucky. Let's see if a mix of wily vets with some young studs will be enough to get it done. Go Duke!

[Kedsy]

I am assuming Vrankovic is in that top scoring per 40 minute list - at 32 pts per 40 minutes (with a 100% FG percentage) and an amazing 32 rebounds per 40 minutes. . So based on early analysis - using stats only- I think we should be playing Vrank much more. He could be the best player on the team by a wide margin.

So don't count Vrankovic and Kennard has gone all the way up to 5th on the team in points per minute. That makes a big difference, doesn't it? My point is people are being hyperbolic about Luke's shooting and scoring ability. Maybe he'll become a great one over time. Who knows? But he's not a great one yet, and I don't know why people are pretending that he is.

And, by the way, I wasn't using stats only. I said his form doesn't look like that of an elite shooter. And, yeah, I understand that Reggie Miller's form was pretty odd-looking, too. But at least so far, Luke hasn't shot like Reggie Miller. Again, maybe he will someday. I just think we should wait until he does before we shower him with such effusive praise.

[phaedrus]

That makes a big difference, doesn't it? My point is people are being hyperbolic about Luke's shooting and scoring ability. Maybe he'll become a great one over time. Who knows? But he's not a great one yet, and I don't know why people are pretending that he is.


Yeah, especially that poster who, after Luke bombed 11 threes in his first game, said Luke probably passed up too many shots and that he should basically feel free to shoot it whenever he wants. That poster was way too effusive.

Oh wait, that was Coach K.

[Kedsy]

Yeah, especially that poster who, after Luke bombed 11 threes in his first game, said Luke probably passed up too many shots and that he should basically feel free to shoot it whenever he wants. That poster was way too effusive.

Oh wait, that was Coach K.

Your point?

[jimsumner]

Duke has pretty high expectations for Kennard. Trust me on this.

[FireOgilvie]

So don't count Vrankovic and Kennard has gone all the way up to 5th on the team in points per minute. That makes a big difference, doesn't it? My point is people are being hyperbolic about Luke's shooting and scoring ability. Maybe he'll become a great one over time. Who knows? But he's not a great one yet, and I don't know why people are pretending that he is.

And, by the way, I wasn't using stats only. I said his form doesn't look like that of an elite shooter. And, yeah, I understand that Reggie Miller's form was pretty odd-looking, too. But at least so far, Luke hasn't shot like Reggie Miller. Again, maybe he will someday. I just think we should wait until he does before we shower him with such effusive praise.

There's only one ball out there at a time. Kennard simply hasn't been very aggressive so far in the past 2 games (0 free throws, 0 turnovers), and we haven't needed him to be with Grayson, Matt, and Ingram all on fire at various points. He still managed to put up 11 points in the second half last night (after barely touching the ball in the first half).

Kennard was aggressive against Livingstone and put up 25 pts (along with 9 reb, 4 assists) and shot 6-11 from 3.

[Kedsy]

Duke has pretty high expectations for Kennard. Trust me on this.

I do trust you. But Duke also has high expectations for Ingram and Thornton and Jeter, right? And certainly Allen? And for this season, presumably for Jefferson and Jones and Plumlee, as well? Seriously, does anybody truly believe Kennard is the second coming of JJ Redick? Or Chris Mullin? Can we really see what his future holds after his being the #21 recruit in the country and playing two games (or even four games, counting the exhibitions) against inferior competition?


There's only one ball out there at a time. Kennard simply hasn't been very aggressive so far in the past 2 games (0 free throws, 0 turnovers), and we haven't needed him to be with Grayson, Matt, and Ingram all on fire at various points. He still managed to put up 11 points in the second half last night (after barely touching the ball in the first half).

Kennard was aggressive against Livingstone and put up 25 pts (along with 9 reb, 4 assists) and shot 6-11 from 3.

He's done OK. I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm not arguing whether or not Duke has high expectations for the kid over time. I've even said he could be a great one someday.

All I'm saying is based on his shooting form and his performance so far, there's no evidence that he's an "elite" anything, or an "absolutely GREAT" anything, or one of the "most exciting players in the country." Why not wait until he is to heap that sort of praise and expectations on the kid?

[OldPhiKap]

Not sure how we are drawing definitive conclusions from two games. Especially from freshmen.

March Duke will be miles different than early November Duke. Across the board this year. Enjoy the ride, expect growth spurts and bumps, trust K can pull it together when it counts.

This is one of the least experienced team we have put on the floor since Dawkins came to Durham. Temper day-to-day expectations accordingly. Lots of raw talent. Emphasis on both "raw" and "talent."

[Furniture]

There is no possible sample size in which Luke's shooting (or scoring) can or will be favorably compared to JJ Redick's. Or probably Trajan Langdon's, either, for that matter.

Obviously two games and eight three-point shots is too small a sample to make any conclusions. I only brought up his current shooting percentages because people in this thread were anointing Luke an "elite shooter" and an "absolutely GREAT scorer" with a "sweet stroke" who "we [can't] keep on the bench going forward" and is one "of the most exciting players in the country right now," when what I see is a young kid with potential and a somewhat unorthodox shooting style who is currently sixth on the team in scoring per 40 minutes and is shooting 25% from distance.

As much as it might seem ridiculous to 'anoint' Luke elite it's also almost the same thing to quote stats and question it. Why not just enjoy the moment and not take comments seriously.

[kAzE]

Duke has pretty high expectations for Kennard. Trust me on this.

Kennard certainly has my attention after these first 2 games. I didn't realize he was this good of a ball handler. I knew he was a good shooter, but the size in combination with the ball handling really makes him deadly. He can run the pick and roll and anytime the defense goes under, he's putting up a jumper because his release is lightning quick and he's comfortable at nearly any range and shooting off the dribble. He's going to be a top 3 scorer for this team, even off the bench.

[Kedsy]

Why not just enjoy the moment and not take comments seriously.

The above is a valid observation. But if you follow it to its logical conclusion, it quickly becomes the question why bother posting here at all?

Seems like half the posts around here are either unwarranted, exaggerated optimism or unwarranted, exaggerated pessimism. E.g., pretty much every season the general consensus is either we're winning the national championship or flaming out before the Sweet 16. Players should either be getting their numbers retired or be relegated to the end of the bench. To me, both extremes get old pretty fast, and it's hard to envision a worthwhile conversation with someone whose comments are so hyperbolic. But it's impossible to have a worthwhile conversation if you can't take the comments seriously.

[gumbomoop]

I didn't realize he was this good of a ball handler.... He can run the pick and roll and anytime the defense goes under, he's putting up a jumper because his release is lightning quick and he's comfortable at nearly any range and shooting off the dribble. He's going to be a top 3 scorer for this team, even off the bench.

Just building on kAzE's good points here.

My own views of Kennard were set -- perhaps foolishly -- long before he played his first game for Duke. I have seen only part of the four games he's played, and he certainly didn't dominate in the part I saw.

But he has an excellent handle. I agree with kAzE that he should be very effective in pick and roll, because he can get off his shot and because his instincts, vision, and passing are top-flight. He just understands the game -- intuitively, rhythmically, a step ahead of play. Some guys have that instant understanding; Kennard does, most don't.

I think it might have been late in the Siena game that he gave Sean a perfect pass off the pick and roll, but Sean just muffed it that time.

I'd have guessed Kennard would be a top 3 scorer, too. I am surprised that Matt seems more aggressive this season, so we seem to have plenty of willing shooters and scorers. But Kennard's value will not -- by the proverbial long shot -- be limited to scoring. He's an ultra smart player. When Kennard signed a year ago, Krzyzewski commented that you might not think teammates would enjoy playing with someone who scores so much, but that isn't the case with Kennard.

[azzefkram]

Thought this game was better than the first. WRT Kennard, I'm with Kedsy on this. I think he will be an excellent player for Duke but he's not there yet. Some ill advised shots aside, I like what I saw from Thornton. I think the O runs better when he's in there and I don't see much drop off in D. I think we'll need him on Tuesday.

I have zero expectations for Vrank this year and probably next year too, but I'll have to say he moved better than I expected and appeared more comfortable out there then MP3 was as a freshman.

[whereinthehellami]

Count me as being all in on Kennard. To me the kid has it and it seems obvious. I'm kind of surprised to see some people not as high on him. As others have commented he is a scorer not just a great shooter and has good handles. On defense he understands the system (farther along than the other freshman) and anticipates really well. He seems to have a really high baskeball IQ and is always around the ball. Something that i think Thornton struggles with. When Kennard has the ball he looks to do damage, either shooting or with the right pass. There is not a lot of wasted movement or dribbling.

[CDu]

My thoughts through two games:

1. Allen has looked dominant going to the basket. Some of that has been because the defenses he's faced so far have been... not good. In the Siena game, he was basically "playing downhill" all game. It will be interesting to see how he does against better competition. That being said, the rules changes do lend themselves to his strengths, which first and foremost include driving to the hoop. So if the officials do officiate contact more tightly on the perimeter, he should benefit. He's very strong and knows how to play to contact. If he can shoot it at a high percentage from 3pt range, he's going to be VERY tough to guard.

2. Jefferson has looked terrific. Again, it's hard to say how much of that is due to the quality of the competition, because he's been taller than the opposition in both games. But he's doing all of the little things, and is showing a sneaky post game as well. No real improvement on the jumpshot. But so far, I'll call that good development. I expect double-figure scoring from him this year, along with high rebound totals. He's going to play heavy minutes this year, as he's the only "safe" commodity we have in the frontcourt.

3. Speaking of doing the little things, I've been very impressed with Matt Jones. He's developed quite an "old man's game". He's hitting those set-shot 3s. He's got a little floater in the lane. He defends well without looking even the slightest bit athletic. And he always seems to be in the right spots. For a player with limited ballhandling skills and athleticism, he's a surprisingly functional all-around player. And it's nice to see him hitting 3s. If he can shoot at a decent clip, he'll be a plus player.

4. Thornton has not impressed me... yet. He's clearly quick and athletic. But he's way behind the rest of the team at the moment. That shouldn't necessarily be surprising, given that he apparently wasn't dominant against better competition in high school and he missed all summer getting his coursework complete. I'm hopeful that he'll eventually emerge as this team's PG, but right now I'd say that we just don't have a PG at the moment. He's looked no better in the role than any of the other wings. Again, though, I'm hopeful that once he's up to speed he will fill in that role.

5. Ingram is going to be a difference maker. The key for him will be aggressiveness, because he's just such a matchup problem. Against smaller wings, he doesn't have to get separation to be open, because he is so tall and long that he can shoot right over a defender. Against bigs, he's just too quick and athletic. He's going to be a nightmare to defend, as long as the refs continue to call contact. The one weakness (literally) is he is not a strong guy. So if the refs revert back to form, he could have trouble as the season progresses. But so far, I've liked what I've seen. He hasn't shot well, but he's getting easy looks and I suspect they'll fall more consistently moving forward. And defensively, he's like Gumby out there. Just a real menace in the passing lanes with those go-go-gadget arms.

6. Kennard seems to be the guy getting the most "mixed bag" reviews. And frankly, I'm not sure why. He's a good shooter who hasn't been hitting his shots in the first two games, yet still is averaging 10 ppg and over 50% from the field. He's not as good as Allen, but he'd start for a ton of teams in the ACC. He's going to be a regular in the rotation, and he's going to be a productive player. I haven't seen anything to suggest he isn't ready to contribute right away.

7. Jeter, on the other hand, seems a bit more shaky. He's not strong enough right now physically (not surprising for a frosh), and he's not skilled or athletic enough to overcompensate the way a guy like Ingram can. He'll play, but I suspect that he's the "0.5" in the 7.5 man rotation.

8. Plumlee has been basically the same Plumlee as before. He's big and reasonably athletic (especially given his size), but he just doesn't have skills on offense. And he still appears to have a high propensity to foul (6 fouls in two games against woefully overmatched opponents), which will likely put a cap on his minutes.

9. The good thing is that we have two big bodies who we can throw in there for a minute or two as needed if/when Plumlee gets in foul trouble and Jeter or Jefferson needs a rest. That's about all I can say about Vrankovic and Obi right now: they are minutes-filler in the event of extreme circumstances.

10. The PG situation and the C situation are my main concerns moving forward. We have a plethora of guys who can get their own shot, but the lack of a PG may result in some less-than-savory stretches where we struggle to score against good defenses. Hopefully we can do enough offensively via one-on-one and offensive rebounds to compensate for it. And hopefully Thornton progresses enough as the season goes on that he can take that role.

As for center, that was a concern coming in, and I haven't really seen anything from our four potential center options to make me think that's going away. Hopefully these guys grow into the role with time.

11. We've seen quite a bit of zones (I say zones, because we've seen a 1-2-2, a 1-3-1, and a 2-3 zone so far). And with guys like Jefferson and Ingram, it makes since. There's a lot of length in the frontcourt, and that can be imposing. So in games where man-to-man is struggling, I think there's real potential with the zone.

[Billy Dat]

Speaking of doing the little things, I've been very impressed with Matt Jones. He's developed quite an "old man's game". He's hitting those set-shot 3s. He's got a little floater in the lane. He defends well without looking even the slightest bit athletic. And he always seems to be in the right spots. For a player with limited ballhandling skills and athleticism, he's a surprisingly functional all-around player. And it's nice to see him hitting 3s. If he can shoot at a decent clip, he'll be a plus player.


Old Man Jones...I love it. Put him in the next Uncle Drew commercial. This perfectly sums up his sneaky effectiveness.

[flyingdutchdevil]

My thoughts through two games:

1. Allen has looked dominant going to the basket. Some of that has been because the defenses he's faced so far have been... not good. In the Siena game, he was basically "playing downhill" all game. It will be interesting to see how he does against better competition. That being said, the rules changes do lend themselves to his strengths, which first and foremost include driving to the hoop. So if the officials do officiate contact more tightly on the perimeter, he should benefit. He's very strong and knows how to play to contact. If he can shoot it at a high percentage from 3pt range, he's going to be VERY tough to guard.

2. Jefferson has looked terrific. Again, it's hard to say how much of that is due to the quality of the competition, because he's been taller than the opposition in both games. But he's doing all of the little things, and is showing a sneaky post game as well. No real improvement on the jumpshot. But so far, I'll call that good development. I expect double-figure scoring from him this year, along with high rebound totals. He's going to play heavy minutes this year, as he's the only "safe" commodity we have in the frontcourt.

3. Speaking of doing the little things, I've been very impressed with Matt Jones. He's developed quite an "old man's game". He's hitting those set-shot 3s. He's got a little floater in the lane. He defends well without looking even the slightest bit athletic. And he always seems to be in the right spots. For a player with limited ballhandling skills and athleticism, he's a surprisingly functional all-around player. And it's nice to see him hitting 3s. If he can shoot at a decent clip, he'll be a plus player.

4. Thornton has not impressed me... yet. He's clearly quick and athletic. But he's way behind the rest of the team at the moment. That shouldn't necessarily be surprising, given that he apparently wasn't dominant against better competition in high school and he missed all summer getting his coursework complete. I'm hopeful that he'll eventually emerge as this team's PG, but right now I'd say that we just don't have a PG at the moment. He's looked no better in the role than any of the other wings. Again, though, I'm hopeful that once he's up to speed he will fill in that role.

5. Ingram is going to be a difference maker. The key for him will be aggressiveness, because he's just such a matchup problem. Against smaller wings, he doesn't have to get separation to be open, because he is so tall and long that he can shoot right over a defender. Against bigs, he's just too quick and athletic. He's going to be a nightmare to defend, as long as the refs continue to call contact. The one weakness (literally) is he is not a strong guy. So if the refs revert back to form, he could have trouble as the season progresses. But so far, I've liked what I've seen. He hasn't shot well, but he's getting easy looks and I suspect they'll fall more consistently moving forward. And defensively, he's like Gumby out there. Just a real menace in the passing lanes with those go-go-gadget arms.

6. Kennard seems to be the guy getting the most "mixed bag" reviews. And frankly, I'm not sure why. He's a good shooter who hasn't been hitting his shots in the first two games, yet still is averaging 10 ppg and over 50% from the field. He's not as good as Allen, but he'd start for a ton of teams in the ACC. He's going to be a regular in the rotation, and he's going to be a productive player. I haven't seen anything to suggest he isn't ready to contribute right away.

7. Jeter, on the other hand, seems a bit more shaky. He's not strong enough right now physically (not surprising for a frosh), and he's not skilled or athletic enough to overcompensate the way a guy like Ingram can. He'll play, but I suspect that he's the "0.5" in the 7.5 man rotation.

8. Plumlee has been basically the same Plumlee as before. He's big and reasonably athletic (especially given his size), but he just doesn't have skills on offense. And he still appears to have a high propensity to foul (6 fouls in two games against woefully overmatched opponents), which will likely put a cap on his minutes.

9. The good thing is that we have two big bodies who we can throw in there for a minute or two as needed if/when Plumlee gets in foul trouble and Jeter or Jefferson needs a rest. That's about all I can say about Vrankovic and Obi right now: they are minutes-filler in the event of extreme circumstances.

10. The PG situation and the C situation are my main concerns moving forward. We have a plethora of guys who can get their own shot, but the lack of a PG may result in some less-than-savory stretches where we struggle to score against good defenses. Hopefully we can do enough offensively via one-on-one and offensive rebounds to compensate for it. And hopefully Thornton progresses enough as the season goes on that he can take that role.

As for center, that was a concern coming in, and I haven't really seen anything from our four potential center options to make me think that's going away. Hopefully these guys grow into the role with time.

11. We've seen quite a bit of zones (I say zones, because we've seen a 1-2-2, a 1-3-1, and a 2-3 zone so far). And with guys like Jefferson and Ingram, it makes since. There's a lot of length in the frontcourt, and that can be imposing. So in games where man-to-man is struggling, I think there's real potential with the zone.

Excellent write-up. Agree with every point. I'll add upon this:

Ingram: CDu covered his offense well, but I also think Ingram can be a difference maker on D. Whether it's trapping, being at the top of the key in the zone, or guarding a 2/3 who is significantly shorter than Ingram, I think Ingram's D will absolutely be a game changer. My one question about Ingram is a) can he rebound and b) does he even need to rebound with Jefferson/MP3 at the 4/5?

Jefferson: Excellent aggressiveness, and you're right about the jumpshot, although he hasn't taken one yet. I'm a firm believer that bigs rarely improve their jumpshots throughout their career with a few exceptions (Shelden Williams being a modern example).

FT: This has been mentioned, but is there a liability on FTs, ala Okafor? The jury is still out on Jefferson, but all the new guys - including Jeter - seem to have a lovely stroke. Plus, having Allen in the Cook/Tyus FT mold doesn't hurt at all.

[Lar77]

OK so we're 2 games in against lower tier teams (although I thought Siena was better than first advertised) and we see another UK uber team on Tuesday plus good D1 competition next weekend.

So far, I think the 4 returning vets have all made improvements to their games. Grayson is a beast (the Siena man band guy would have penalized 15 yards on Friday for his take down, but Grayson just shook it off and continued on). Amile is stronger and has developed some moves. Plus, what a leader. Matt is just good and always seems to be in the right place. Remember, defense is his strength as seen by Wisconsin. Marshall has elevated. He's not an option on offense and his hustle will leave gaps on defense (but that is as much a rotation/communication issue).

For the incoming plus Obi, lots of good things from each of the four touted freshman, but they are still young. I'm concerned about Brandon only because he is so thin, but what a talent! There's been enough argument about Luke, but I haven't seen anything not to like. He reminds me of Scheyer, but I won't belabor that. Chase has not been getting the love here, but we will see him a lot if only because our interior guys will get into foul trouble and he isn't a big dropoff in that role. Derrick is going to develop, but he won't be starting for a while. Obi: I agree that he is slower and that will hurt his playing time. Haven't really seen his defense, but that could be important when we start playing teams with bulk, like our Triangle competition. Vrank: not enough so far but see comments on Obi and Marshall.

Is Justin Robinson officially red-shirting?

We will win against lesser teams between now and year end. We have 3 "peers" in our first month that will indicate where we really are

[Saratoga2]

OK so we're 2 games in against lower tier teams (although I thought Siena was better than first advertised) and we see another UK uber team on Tuesday plus good D1 competition next weekend.

So far, I think the 4 returning vets have all made improvements to their games. Grayson is a beast (the Siena man band guy would have penalized 15 yards on Friday for his take down, but Grayson just shook it off and continued on). Amile is stronger and has developed some moves. Plus, what a leader. Matt is just good and always seems to be in the right place. Remember, defense is his strength as seen by Wisconsin. Marshall has elevated. He's not an option on offense and his hustle will leave gaps on defense (but that is as much a rotation/communication issue).

For the incoming plus Obi, lots of good things from each of the four touted freshman, but they are still young. I'm concerned about Brandon only because he is so thin, but what a talent! There's been enough argument about Luke, but I haven't seen anything not to like. He reminds me of Scheyer, but I won't belabor that. Chase has not been getting the love here, but we will see him a lot if only because our interior guys will get into foul trouble and he isn't a big dropoff in that role. Derrick is going to develop, but he won't be starting for a while. Obi: I agree that he is slower and that will hurt his playing time. Haven't really seen his defense, but that could be important when we start playing teams with bulk, like our Triangle competition. Vrank: not enough so far but see comments on Obi and Marshall.

Is Justin Robinson officially red-shirting?


We will win against lesser teams between now and year end. We have 3 "peers" in our first month that will indicate where we really are

I agree about the returning players with the exception of Marshall. To me he is functional at center but hasn't seemed to have improved his offense and still gets himself out of position on defense. To me, like some others on the board, he is the best of a not particularly strong group at the 5. Maybe Jeter will become a better option this year but also may be slow to grow into the role. Vrank shows some good qualities but can't be expected to make a major impact this year. Good to have options as Marshall may be in foul trouble in many games.

[BD80]

Duke has pretty high expectations for Kennard. Trust me on this.

Really? How many mpg do they expect?


... Seems like half the posts around here are either unwarranted, exaggerated optimism or unwarranted, exaggerated pessimism. ...

What percent are just smartass comments?

[Kedsy]

What percent are just smartass comments?

Depends. Are we just counting yours?

[Channing]

In a very limited sample size, I love that Grayson is such a willing passer. We have had some other guys in recent years who were great at attacking the basket, but always went for the finish. I distinctly remember begging for a dump off to the weak side big for an easy 2 instead of a contested layup. That skill makes Grayson so much harder to defend because the help defense has to stay honest.

[Neals384]

I do trust you. But Duke also has high expectations for Ingram and Thornton and Jeter, right? And certainly Allen? And for this season, presumably for Jefferson and Jones and Plumlee, as well? Seriously, does anybody truly believe Kennard is the second coming of JJ Redick? Or Chris Mullin? Can we really see what his future holds after his being the #21 recruit in the country and playing two games (or even four games, counting the exhibitions) against inferior competition?

He's done OK. I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm not arguing whether or not Duke has high expectations for the kid over time. I've even said he could be a great one someday.

All I'm saying is based on his shooting form and his performance so far, there's no evidence that he's an "elite" anything, or an "absolutely GREAT" anything, or one of the "most exciting players in the country." Why not wait until he is to heap that sort of praise and expectations on the kid?

Have been mulling over whether he is the second coming of Redick or Mullin and can't decide. Maybe the best of both. ;)

[wilson]

Have been mulling over whether he is the second coming of Redick or Mullin and can't decide. Maybe the best of both. ;)We'll know that Luke has really arrived when opposing fans begin spelling his name "Look."

[flyingdutchdevil]

Have been mulling over whether he is the second coming of Redick or Mullin and can't decide. Maybe the best of both. ;)

He may be the second coming of JJ, Mullin, Laettner, Alcindor, Maravich, Walton, D Thompson, and R Sampson all put together!

[kAzE]

He may be the second coming of JJ, Mullin, Laettner, Alcindor, Maravich, Walton, D Thompson, and R Sampson all put together!

In all seriousness, the JJ comparison doesn't work for me because JJ wasn't never a great shooter off the dribble, and he certainly couldn't create his own shot as a freshman. Now don't get me wrong, JJ is the best stand still jump shooter who has ever come through this program, he just never developed as a playmaker until probably the 2nd half of his junior year.

I find the fact that we're comparing Luke to JJ at all right now is pretty telling of our expectations through 2 games. He will probably have a few really bad games this year that knock our expectations down a peg or 2, but right now, he's firmly in the rotation as one of the best scorers on the team.

Luke seems to be a more "complete" offensive player than JJ was as a freshman. JJ had more opportunity to shoot his first year because he didn't have this much talent around him, but almost all of his shots were off screens or other player's penetration. Luke is making things happen for himself already as a ball handler, which I think is just extremely impressive. He seems to be a better finisher inside the 3 point line as well, since he's a bit bigger and more athletic than JJ. Of those guys you mentioned, Maravich might actually be a better comp, as he was a 6'5" combo guard with good ball handling and the ability to shoot of the dribble.

[luvdahops]

I do trust you. But Duke also has high expectations for Ingram and Thornton and Jeter, right? And certainly Allen? And for this season, presumably for Jefferson and Jones and Plumlee, as well? Seriously, does anybody truly believe Kennard is the second coming of JJ Redick? Or Chris Mullin? Can we really see what his future holds after his being the #21 recruit in the country and playing two games (or even four games, counting the exhibitions) against inferior competition?



He's done OK. I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm not arguing whether or not Duke has high expectations for the kid over time. I've even said he could be a great one someday.

All I'm saying is based on his shooting form and his performance so far, there's no evidence that he's an "elite" anything, or an "absolutely GREAT" anything, or one of the "most exciting players in the country." Why not wait until he is to heap that sort of praise and expectations on the kid?

Let's back up for a moment on this. A lot of the so-called "Luke Love", from myself and others, was in direct response to speculation that he would be hard pressed to earn minutes this year, whether based on his RSCI rating, or a perception that he was a volume shooter and not much else, was a small-town kid who piled up big numbers against inferior competition, or whatever. The arguments made in favor were generally that he was underrated by many recruiting analysts (a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), was a better all-around player than generally given credit for (again, a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), had performed well in International and All-Star competition (as evidence that he was more than just a small-town legend), and generally appeared to have both a great feel for the game and a terrific make-up in terms of competitiveness and wanting the ball in his hands.

Time will tell, but Luke likes a surefire part of the rotation at a minimum.

[kAzE]

Let's back up for a moment on this. A lot of the so-called "Luke Love", from myself and others, was in direct response to speculation that he would be hard pressed to earn minutes this year, whether based on his RSCI rating, or a perception that he was a volume shooter and not much else, was a small-town kid who piled up big numbers against inferior competition, or whatever. The arguments made in favor were generally that he was underrated by many recruiting analysts (a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), was a better all-around player than generally given credit for (again, a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), had performed well in International and All-Star competition (as evidence that he was more than just a small-town legend), and generally appeared to have both a great feel for the game and a terrific make-up in terms of competitiveness and wanting the ball in his hands.

Time will tell, but Luke likes a surefire part of the rotation at a minimum.

I agree with this . . . nobody is trying to heap expectations on the guy. As far as I'm concerned, I've watched him play in 2 games and my eyeballs are telling me this guy is a great player. He will absolutely struggle at times against stiffer competition, but the skills Ive seen him put on display are very impressive, and he doesn't look like a freshman at all.

[Indoor66]

Have been mulling over whether he is the second coming of Redick or Mullin and can't decide. Maybe the best of both. ;)

I'll give you the answer: The first coming of Luke.

[jimsumner]

Brick Oettinger is the recruiting analyst for the ACC Sports Journal, aka the Poop Sheet.

He's not represented in the RSCI rankings. But he's been doing this a long time, he's nowhere near being a Duke homer and in general I think his evaluation skills are equal to or superior to anyone in the business.

Oettinger ranks Kennard as the number four player in the class of 2015. By comparison, he has Jeter at 13, Ingram at 17 and Thornton at 21.

He's an outlier on both Kennard and Ingram and I think he's way off on Ingram. So, he could be way off on Kennard.

But perhaps something to ponder.

[kAzE]

I was doing some Pete Maravich research and dug this up: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19700222&id=rUVWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bOsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6243,2095476&hl=en

Check the bottom left of that page under the headline "64 for Pistol Pete . . ."

Man, how different was college basketball back then? Two individual players combining for 115 points in a single game? Averaging 47 a game?? With no 3 point line??? That's insane.

[MChambers]

Brick Oettinger is the recruiting analyst for the ACC Sports Journal, aka the Poop Sheet.

He's not represented in the RSCI rankings. But he's been doing this a long time, he's nowhere near being a Duke homer and in general I think his evaluation skills are equal to or superior to anyone in the business.

Oettinger ranks Kennard as the number four player in the class of 2015. By comparison, he has Jeter at 13, Ingram at 17 and Thornton at 21.

He's an outlier on both Kennard and Ingram and I think he's way off on Ingram. So, he could be way off on Kennard.

But perhaps something to ponder.

That's really interesting. I agree that he's way off on Ingram, but hope he's right on Kennard.

[phaedrus]

Luke seems to be a more "complete" offensive player than JJ was as a freshman. JJ had more opportunity to shoot his first year because he didn't have this much talent around him, but almost all of his shots were off screens or other player's penetration. Luke is making things happen for himself already as a ball handler, which I think is just extremely impressive. He seems to be a better finisher inside the 3 point line as well, since he's a bit bigger and more athletic than JJ.

He's already passed J.J. in career dunks.

[flyingdutchdevil]

He's already passed J.J. in career dunks.

Has he? JJ had two career dunks. How many does Kennard have?

[kAzE]

Has he? JJ had two career dunks. How many does Kennard have?

I think he had 2 in the Bryant game alone, right?

[Newton_14]

I think he had 2 in the Bryant game alone, right?

Yes. First one was JJ esque.... soft two hand barely over the rim from a two foot jump dunk... Second one though surprised me. Fast break at fullspeed, goes up strong off his left foot and throws down a hard right handed dunk. Did not think he had that in him, but he did.

[blUDAYvil]

Yes. First one was JJ esque... soft two hand barely over the rim from a two foot jump dunk... Second one though surprised me. Fast break at fullspeed, goes up strong off his left foot and throws down a hard right handed dunk. Did not think he had that in him, but he did.

Not terribly surprising given this from earlier this year...

https://twitter.com/kingdomsprts/status/566442608059490304

[Kedsy]

Luuuke: Shooting motion is so smooth and fast don't think we can keep him on the bench going forward.


Luke Kennard: Here we go . . . this guy is electric. He and Grayson are absolutely 2 of the most exciting players in the country right now. I think we're going to see a 30 point game at some point this year from Luke. He's an absolutely GREAT scorer, and you can tell he can create from himself and score at all three levels.


Kennard is a very smart player and he is half a season away from being able to put up big numbers. His shooting is elite.


He [Kennard] reminds me of Chris Mullin. Needs to get way better on D and get more experience, but I think that's the type of player he could become.


Let's back up for a moment on this. A lot of the so-called "Luke Love", from myself and others, was in direct response to speculation that he would be hard pressed to earn minutes this year, whether based on his RSCI rating, or a perception that he was a volume shooter and not much else, was a small-town kid who piled up big numbers against inferior competition, or whatever. The arguments made in favor were generally that he was underrated by many recruiting analysts (a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), was a better all-around player than generally given credit for (again, a view apparently shared by the Duke staff), had performed well in International and All-Star competition (as evidence that he was more than just a small-town legend), and generally appeared to have both a great feel for the game and a terrific make-up in terms of competitiveness and wanting the ball in his hands.

The quotes above yours did not appear to be in direct response to minutes speculation or anything else. They seemed to be unwarranted gushing by otherwise reasonable posters. And I can't even find the quote in a different thread comparing him favorably to JJ Redick, but I definitely remember reading it.


Time will tell, but Luke [looks like] a surefire part of the rotation at a minimum.

This, I agree with.


I agree with this . . . nobody is trying to heap expectations on the guy. As far as I'm concerned, I've watched him play in 2 games and my eyeballs are telling me this guy is a great player. He will absolutely struggle at times against stiffer competition, but the skills Ive seen him put on display are very impressive, and he doesn't look like a freshman at all.

If you look at the quotes at the top of this post, people are heaping expectations on him, whether they're trying or not. Including you, in this post.


Brick Oettinger is the recruiting analyst for the ACC Sports Journal, aka the Poop Sheet.

He's not represented in the RSCI rankings. But he's been doing this a long time, he's nowhere near being a Duke homer and in general I think his evaluation skills are equal to or superior to anyone in the business.

Oettinger ranks Kennard as the number four player in the class of 2015. By comparison, he has Jeter at 13, Ingram at 17 and Thornton at 21.

He's an outlier on both Kennard and Ingram and I think he's way off on Ingram. So, he could be way off on Kennard.

But perhaps something to ponder.

That is definitely interesting. And hopeful. I remember a recruiting analyst (was it Bob Gibbons?) saying in 2002 that #11 ranked JJ Redick would end up with his jersey in the rafters. But just because he was right that time doesn't mean Brick is right this time. Of course, doesn't mean he's wrong, either.

If the Duke staff has a similarly high opinion of Luke, he'll certainly get his minutes and his chance to shine. Whether he's currently elite and electric and one of the most exciting players in the country who we can't keep on the bench going forward... well I think the jury's still out on that.

[jv001]

I like to see my young Duke guys play in all non-conference games and even a few in-conference games before I go out on a limb and heap lots of praise on them. I like what I see in Kennard but the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

The quotes above yours did not appear to be in direct response to minutes speculation or anything else. They seemed to be unwarranted gushing by otherwise reasonable posters. And I can't even find the quote in a different thread comparing him favorably to JJ Redick, but I definitely remember reading it. If you look at the quotes at the top of this post, people are heaping expectations on him, whether they're trying or not. Including you, in this post.

Well, the posts early in the thread are coming off an adrenaline high of just seeing a REALLY fast paced and exciting game where he had more than a few exciting plays. I don't think you can blame anyone for being amped up. But I'm not going to back off on my stance that's he's exciting. This guy pushes the ball up the floor every time he gets it in transition, where he can dunk it with authority or pull up from 3. Even in the halfcourt, his mid range one dribble pull up seems to be money and he's got deep range as a spot up shooter to top it all off. Almost by default, he's an exciting player.

I wasn't particularly high on him coming into the year, so maybe seeing him blow away my previous expectations for him are causing some hyperbole in my posts, but given what we've seen so far, can you really criticize anyone for getting their hopes up for this kid? So I guess I retract my statement of not having expectations. My expectations are: He's one of the 3 best scorers on the team. He will have some bad games, because he's a freshman, but I think he will play more than 24 minutes per game and average double figures in scoring. Perhaps even push his way into the starting lineup at some point. That's pretty reasonable given what we've seen, right?

[Kedsy]

My expectations are: He's one of the 3 best scorers on the team. He will have some bad games, because he's a freshman, but I think he will play more than 24 minutes per game and average double figures in scoring. Perhaps even push his way into the starting lineup at some point. That's pretty reasonable given what we've seen, right?

It's certainly possible. Whether it's likely or even reasonable, I'm personally going to withhold judgment until at least after the Indiana game.

[luvdahops]

The quotes above yours did not appear to be in direct response to minutes speculation or anything else. They seemed to be unwarranted gushing by otherwise reasonable posters. And I can't even find the quote in a different thread comparing him favorably to JJ Redick, but I definitely remember reading it.


To be clear, I was indeed referencing the general discussion/arguments around Luke (primarily, I believe, in the annual "Minutes Thread", but also some others), of which this thread is a part, but only the most recent one. And to be honest, I was responding to what I perceived as some lingering stubborness on your part in the context of the longer term discussion, not just this thread. You have consistently seemed to be a "Luke doubter".

FWIW, I did mention the Oettinger rating in the Minutes thread several months back. I have no idea if he will prove to be right or wrong on Luke long-term, but as someone who has been familiar with Brick since the 80s, I do respect his rankings more than others, especially as it relates to ACC prospects and how they will fit into ACC programs.

[kAzE]

To be clear, I was indeed referencing the general discussion/arguments around Luke (primarily, I believe, in the annual "Minutes Thread", but also some others), of which this thread is a part, but only the most recent one. And to be honest, I was responding to what I perceived as some lingering stubborness on your part in the context of the longer term discussion, not just this thread. You have consistently seemed to be a "Luke doubter".

FWIW, I did mention the Oettinger rating in the Minutes thread several months back. I have no idea if he will prove to be right or wrong on Luke long-term, but as someone who has been familiar with Brick since the 80s, I do respect his rankings more than others, especially as it relates to ACC prospects and how they will fit into ACC programs.

I don't think anybody is a "Luke doubter." I think Kedsy's just part of a more conservative population on this message board who like to withhold all judgment until they can get their hands on a larger sample size (which is usually the smart thing to do, in order to avoid looking like a complete idiot). Remember Taylor King/Shavlik Randolph's first few games? I'm usually a bit more conservative, but I really enjoyed what I saw the first two games, and he's quickly becoming one of my favorites, so I'm happy to gush about him. I like to think of myself as a good evaluator of basketball talent, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one. The Force is strong with this one.

[superdave]

The main thing that jumped out at me after watching the two games is Kennard is ready to be a D1 player and Thornton is athletically ready but not quite basketball ready, if that makes sense.

I thought Luke looked comfortable out there, perhaps like how Scheyer looked when he was a freshman. He just seems to be a gym rat who has a nose for the ball. He got into the passing lanes a few times. I never felt like he was lost on D.

He does not have a great looking stroke, but I think he'll shoot better than 35% from 3 this season. He seems to always be looking to score or looking to find someone in scoring position - a little aggressive, in a good team-oriented way. No complacency from him.

I also thought Derryck looked like he was moving a little too quick out there. He needed to let the game come to him some. He is a blur out there, but may have over played on D a few times or been out of a position a few times. I think he'll have growing pains. I really do hope he gets the minutes to figure it out so the game slows down for him. If he improves enough to be our starting pg. If this becomes HIS team and he can have the ball in his hands during crunch time, while also being a ball hawk, this is going to be a special team.

[superdave]

I don't think anybody is a "Luke doubter." I think Kedsy's just part of a more conservative population on this message board who like to withhold all judgment until they can get their hands on a larger sample size (which is usually the smart thing to do, in order to avoid looking like a complete idiot). Remember Taylor King/Shavlik Randolph's first few games? I'm usually a bit more conservative, but I really enjoyed what I saw the first two games, and he's quickly becoming one of my favorites, so I'm happy to gush about him. I like to think of myself as a good evaluator of basketball talent, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one. The Force is strong with this one.

Randolph put up 23 points in 18 minutes vs. Army in his college debut. That is 51.1 points per 40.

He averaged 14.4 per 40 over his three years.

I really hope Luke has a game like that soon so this board erupts.

[jimsumner]

The main thing that jumped out at me after watching the two games is Kennard is ready to be a D1 player and Thornton is athletically ready but not quite basketball ready, if that makes sense.

I thought Luke looked comfortable out there, perhaps like how Scheyer looked when he was a freshman. He just seems to be a gym rat who has a nose for the ball. He got into the passing lanes a few times. I never felt like he was lost on D.

He does not have a great looking stroke, but I think he'll shoot better than 35% from 3 this season. He seems to always be looking to score or looking to find someone in scoring position - a little aggressive, in a good team-oriented way. No complacency from him.

I also thought Derryck looked like he was moving a little too quick out there. He needed to let the game come to him some. He is a blur out there, but may have over played on D a few times or been out of a position a few times. I think he'll have growing pains. I really do hope he gets the minutes to figure it out so the game slows down for him. If he improves enough to be our starting pg. If this becomes HIS team and he can have the ball in his hands during crunch time, while also being a ball hawk, this is going to be a special team.

Watching Thornton reminds me of the Wooden adage "be quick but don't hurry." He's quick but he's hurrying. Interestingly, I feel the same way about Kyra Lambert, a super-quick freshman point guard on the Duke women's team.

But I digress. It seems to me that whenever Thornton gets into trouble, it's because he dribbles himself into trouble. He's still at that point where he's figuring out what worked in high school that will work in college and what worked in high school that won't work in college.

But I love his defense. He loves to get in people's grilles in ways that Ty Jones never thought of.

I think he'll be alright. But some patience is in order.

[luvdahops]

Watching Thornton reminds me of the Wooden adage "be quick but don't hurry." He's quick but he's hurrying. Interestingly, I feel the same way about Kyra Lambert, a super-quick freshman point guard on the Duke women's team.

But I digress. It seems to me that whenever Thornton gets into trouble, it's because he dribbles himself into trouble. He's still at that point where he's figuring out what worked in high school that will work in college and what worked in high school that won't work in college.

But I love his defense. He loves to get in people's grilles in ways that Ty Jones never thought of.

I think he'll be alright. But some patience is in order.

I agree. I think the lack of competitive basketball and opportunity to play against and integrate with his teammates over the summer has Derryck still playing catch up, especially on offense. Given that, I suspect it may be until January before we have a good sense of just how impactful he can be for this year's team.

[BD80]

I'll give you the answer: The first coming of Luke.

Gospel

[Steven43]

I do trust you. But Duke also has high expectations for Ingram and Thornton and Jeter, right? And certainly Allen? And for this season, presumably for Jefferson and Jones and Plumlee, as well? Seriously, does anybody truly believe Kennard is the second coming of JJ Redick? Or Chris Mullin? Can we really see what his future holds after his being the #21 recruit in the country and playing two games (or even four games, counting the exhibitions) against inferior competition?



He's done OK. I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm not arguing whether or not Duke has high expectations for the kid over time. I've even said he could be a great one someday.

All I'm saying is based on his shooting form and his performance so far, there's no evidence that he's an "elite" anything, or an "absolutely GREAT" anything, or one of the "most exciting players in the country." Why not wait until he is to heap that sort of praise and expectations on the kid?

Not sure what his recruiting ranking has to do with anything, but JJ Redick, who you seem to imply is out of reach as a comp for Kennard, was not ranked in the top 10 as a recruit. And to be honest, he wasn't all that great of a player until his junior season. And let's not gloss over the fact that he played somewhere between mediocre and horrible in some big games--particularly in the NCAA tournament when it mattered the most. Had he played better in those games I think Duke would have won at least one--and quite possibly two--more national championships. I'm thinking particularly of the UConn game (4-12 shooting, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers) in the Final Four in 2004 and the LSU game (3-18 shooting, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 turnovers) in the Round of 16 in 2006.

Look, I love the guy and I've always been one of his biggest fans, even when he doesn't play well, but the facts speak for themselves. And from what I have seen thus far, small sample size and all, when compared to freshman JJ, Kennard appears to be more athletic, a better rebounder, a better ballhandler, a better passer, and better able to create his own shot. Go back and look at Redick's freshman games and you will see for yourself. I think most on this board who are high on Kennard are looking at what appears to be his POTENTIAL. Whether he reaches said potential or not is another matter altogether.

[oldnavy]

Gospel

Does anyone know if Luke is planning on going to Med school after graduation??? (biblical attempt at humor, forgive me).

My thoughts on Thornton as PG... I am not worried as much about his offensive game, i.e., "assists" since we do have so many players who can create their own shots. Of course if he is turnover prone that is a problem.

The good news for me is he doesn't have to come out of the gate as an amazing distributor of the basketball, he just needs to be adequate until he develops at this level. I don't think we are going to need to rely on him putting his teammates into scoring positions as much as we have needed the PG to do in the past.

Where I think he will help us is on defending the other teams PG. If he can be aggressive and slow down,or shut down his man, he is going to be a huge asset IMO.

[cato]

Not sure what his recruiting ranking has to do with anything, but JJ Redick, who you seem to imply is out of reach as a comp for Kennard, was not ranked in the top 10 as a recruit. . . .

I'm pretty sure Kedsey was talking about shooting ability specifically. And, fwiw, I completely agree. Redick was the best shooter to come through Duke during K's career, and holds the school scoring record. His jersey is in the rafters, and while part of that has to do with the growth in his game as a junior and senior, it all came back to one exceptional skill: his ability to knock done long jump shots, even as the focal point of the offense (and opposing team's defense).

If Kennard could shoot like Redick, he would be starting, or first guy off the bench. He can still be an excellent scorer, and hit a high percentage from 3, without reaching the rarified air that Redick inhabits.

[CDu]

I'm pretty sure Kedsey was talking about shooting ability specifically. And, fwiw, I completely agree. Redick was the best shooter to come through Duke during K's career, and holds the school scoring record. His jersey is in the rafters, and while part of that has to do with the growth in his game as a junior and senior, it all came back to one exceptional skill: his ability to knock done long jump shots, even as the focal point of the offense (and opposing team's defense).

If Kennard could shoot like Redick, he would be starting, or first guy off the bench. He can still be an excellent scorer, and hit a high percentage from 3, without reaching the rarified air that Redick inhabits.

Yeah, I think Kennard's game more closely resembles that of Scheyer than Redick. I think he has a more complete skill set than Redick offensively (better ballhandler, driver, and passer). But Redick was SOOOOO good at one or two particular skills that he way more than offsets the lack of variety. That's not to say he'll reach the level of Scheyer, either, just that that is where I think his skill set more aligns (though he is a better leaper than Scheyer was).

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, I think Kennard's game more closely resembles that of Scheyer than Redick. I think he has a more complete skill set than Redick offensively (better ballhandler, driver, and passer). But Redick was SOOOOO good at one or two particular skills that he way more than offsets the lack of variety. That's not to say he'll reach the level of Scheyer, either, just that that is where I think his skill set more aligns (though he is a better leaper than Scheyer was).

But Kennard's neck is nowhere near as long... ;)