MBB: Duke 92, Siena 74 Post-Game Thread [Archive]

dukelifer

11-13-2015, 09:14 PM

Put your post-game thoughts here.

Solid effort. Lots of work to do, however. Amile is a rock and it was good to see Grayson play like a leader. The Frosh were Frosh. It will be interesting to see how they play tomorrow with a game under their belt. Ingram thinks he is a three point shooter but the weight training or something has affected his mechanics. His shot is way off. Perhaps he needs to slow down a bit. The D is also a work in progress. There is talent on this team but they need more time together for sure.

JNort

11-13-2015, 09:17 PM

Only negatives from me was the transition defense and how badly we got out of position on inbound plays and rebounds which resulted in many open looks for the other team.

FireOgilvie

11-13-2015, 09:40 PM

Great games from Grayson, Amile, and Matt.

Saratoga2

11-13-2015, 09:46 PM

Against a middle of the pack team, the points definitely came from Grayson and Amile. There was also capability shown by Luke and Brandon. Against a larger and quicker defensive team one or more of these guys will get shutdown to some degree so the question is an open one.

Grayson and Amile also played very good defense so I expect them both to get very solid starters minutes going forward.

Matt looks like the player he was last year. Excellent defense, decent handle and opportunistic scoring. I think he steadies the team with his presence.

While Marshall played with enthusiasm, is game hasn't changed much and I expect him to get journeyman's minutes and do little scoring with good rebounding and fair defense.

The other freshmen looked somewhat fazed by playing their first game for Duke but I liked what I saw from Luke, who showed flashes of his scoring ability. He did take a couple of long shots early in the shot clock and needs to understand the situation. A 30 foot shot early in the shot clock with your rebounders not yet down the floor may be inadvisable. But he showed some nice moves and shooting ability and I like his size at guard. He will only get better with coaching and experience and may become a mainstay.

Brandon is very fluid with a good handle and is a defensive presence, but he will have trouble unless he can add some muscle. Fifteen pounds would really help him compete. But he does have very good court awareness and as he meshes with his team mates, things will get better for him. His three point shooting was not there tonight.

Derryck looks like a work in progress. You can see he is very quick and has a good handle. He is handling a very difficult position and we shouldn't expect an immediate maturity in his game. I expect some improvements in his game as we go through November and December. By the ACC season, he should be ready to really contribute more fully.

Chase tried hard out there while seeming to get out of position on defense. He does have good size and mobility so with some improvement he will likely surpass Marshall in contribution.

Neither Sean nor Antonio had enough PT to make any assessment. Both looked okay out there and will provide excellent depth on the team.

After watching this first game and seeing the new players for the first time I have to think we will be vulnerable and take some losses, especially early on. There is a lot of growth potential on this team though and the starters will probably be changing as we move along. Amile, Grayson, Brandon and perhaps Matt will be starters . Beyond them Chase, Derryck and Luke will will compete for the 5th starting position. I think Luke may best be used as a 6th man

NYBri

11-13-2015, 09:52 PM

Allowing 74 points by Siena is a flag...one that will be addressed, I'm sure.

jipops

11-13-2015, 09:55 PM

Duke played very good defense for the first 28 minutes. However Sienna racked up 36 pts in the final 12. Man, that ain't good.

I have to think the shooting will come around at some point. I mean it HAS to for this group to win many games. Amile looked really good but he is the only player remotely resembling a post threat. It's going to be awhile until we see Thornton comfortably direct an offense, hopefully sooner than later. I think so much of the success of this team depends on how well Derryck integrates himself. If he is still filling a reserve role by the time conference play starts, then we could be a 2nd tier ACC team.

But there is a lot of potential here. A combination of Marshall, Amile, and Brandon can be a very disruptive front court. Grayson can obviously score and Kennard is a real player on offense. And I really love Matt Jones and how great he plays D. I expect to see K go with a 7 man rotation throughout most of the season. Jeter is just going to need time to get there. He's not ready to be a factor right now.

NashvilleDevil

11-13-2015, 09:57 PM

Allowing 74 points by Siena is a flag...one that will be addressed, I'm sure.

No it's not. Duke pulled starters with about 4 minutes to go and Siena hit several three pointers with the freshmen and Obi on the floor.

FireOgilvie

11-13-2015, 10:06 PM

The other freshmen looked somewhat fazed by playing their first game for Duke but I liked what I saw from Luke, who showed flashes of his scoring ability. He did take a couple of long shots early in the shot clock and needs to understand the situation. A 30 foot shot early in the shot clock with your rebounders not yet down the floor may be inadvisable. But he showed some nice moves and shooting ability and I like his size at guard. He will only get better with coaching and experience and may become a mainstay.

It seems like Luke has the green light to shoot whenever he's open, which is probably the right move. When he gets going, an open jumper seems like a layup.

On the other hand, Ingram needs to stick to his strength and drive to the basket more; he's fantastic when he attacks and either scores or draws fouls. He's also a good free throw shooter.

Saratoga2

11-13-2015, 10:06 PM

No it's not. Duke pulled starters with about 4 minutes to go and Siena hit several three pointers with the freshmen and Obi on the floor.

I don't think Obi was responsible for giving up those 3 point opportunities if that is what your implying.

JNort

11-13-2015, 10:08 PM

Allowing 74 points by Siena is a flag...one that will be addressed, I'm sure.

Don't forget scoring should be up for everyone this year. Shorter shot clock and less physical contact allowed.

Rickshaw

11-13-2015, 10:10 PM

nice, after a bit of back and forth between the crazies and the siena fans, allen goes for a great drive and monster dunk. kinda got some acc volume going there..................welcome back duke basketball.

UrinalCake

11-13-2015, 10:16 PM

Team is definitely a work in progress - a lot of turnovers, periods where the ball didn't move, and players haven't fully identified their roles yet. Grayson was able to attack the basket at will. Nice to see Amile make some moves towards the basket as well, we'll need someone to provide some scoring inside and his 19 points were very quiet and efficient.

The freshmen did seem a little nervous and didn't play with a lot of energy. Thankfully the veterans were there to lead. The team has potential but has a lot to work on. Then again, I remember this time last season we played an opponent of similar level as Siena and they burned us repeatedly on the perimeter, and we were wondering how the team could ever amount to anything.

flyingdutchdevil

11-13-2015, 10:23 PM

First game of the season with a new roster, so really not much to comment on. But I'll comment anyway:

-I was wrong about Kennard. The kid can shoot and can play. I also like what I saw from his court vision
-Amile played really well, but this is against bad defenders. I am really looking forward to how his offense works on Tuesday
-Ingram has so much potential. If he can unleash 80% of that potential this year, it's gonna be insane
-Grayson can play. Clearly. I absolutely love his drives. They are really unstoppable. Can't wait to see his drives on Tuesday
-Disappointed with Thornton's hunger. I am not expecting him to dominate from Day 1, but I am expecting to see some fire. There looked to be little fire
-MP3 can rebound and defend. But he clearly hasn't improved his defense and I'm not expecting him to for the remainder of the year.
-Is it pronounced "Canard" instead of "Ke-nard"? If so, I'm going to be laughing for 4 years when I listen to the commentators, because 'canard' is 'duck' in French. My wife, who is French, couldn't stop cracking up.

BigZ

11-13-2015, 10:33 PM

From what I've witnessed for this first game I have to say this time is a work in progress. This Frosh class is very talented and will be good in time but it isn't nearly as polished as last years. BI and LK are ready to take off but I think DT and CJ will take time to develop and might have to wait to next year for them to have big roles on the team.

gurufrisbee

11-13-2015, 10:36 PM

Allen was phenomenal. He looks like an All American.

Amile was fantastic. He looks like a first team all ACC level player. I'm still so excited for his game tonight.

Matt was solid. I'm never expecting huge things from him, but steady on offense and good on defense. I'll take it.

Plumlee shows what I think most expected. Big body, rebounds, hustle, fouls. Wish we saw more offense, but that's been a wish for years.

I feel like those four returners have been generally disrespected by national media and are much better than most think and I believe tonight they showed that they are better than the common thoughts on them. Those four could easily be the core of a top 20 team.

Ingram has a quick trigger, but tonight he was not good. I found it most interesting he seemed to spend about half the time as the 3 and half as the 4. I know he has a lot more talent than he showed tonight.

Kennard was decent. He has a nice shot and showed good hustle on defense.

Did not see much impressive from Thornton, but I was encouraged to see them work well on offense when he wasn't out there.

Jeter has some motor and hustle.

When three or four of the freshmen were all out there together I know my spoiled nature from last year came threw because that was always a good thing for us last year. But their defense was really poor, both in transition and in that 2-3 zone at the end of the game.

If we get a season of this from Allen and Amile, it's going to be a special season because I have no doubt that we'll still get solid consistency from Matt and MP3 and I believe the freshmen will just keep improving in all aspects.

Neals384

11-13-2015, 11:20 PM

Very happy to be wrong when I said we needed to take Siena seriously. Could easily have been a 40 point win if shots had fallen and end-of-game collapse had been avoided.

Neals384

11-13-2015, 11:29 PM

Yeah, I was about to post asking if that was him who snuck into the game for the final 11 seconds.

Strange that he would not be redshirting.

59 seconds. In a situation like his, would it be normal for coach to say to him (before the first game), "as it stands right now, you won't play much. You can redshirt if you want." ??

Olympic Fan

11-14-2015, 12:21 AM

Billy Dat

11-14-2015, 01:18 AM

Wahoo2000

11-14-2015, 01:23 AM

Didn't we just have a debate in another thread with several posters suggesting Grayson would be back next year -- as a reserve?

Oh well ... Brandon Ingram needs to either starting making some threes or stop shooting them. He was 1-of-9 on 3s last night after going a combined 1-of-9 on 3s in the two exhibition games. It's painful to watch, because he's so good when he takes it to the basket -- and the drives were there against Siena.

Amile has been outstanding every time we've seen him this season (counting the two preseason games and the scrimmage).

Trying not to make definitive judgments yet -- let's see Duke against Bryant tonight (supposedly a somewhat weaker team than Siena, which I thought looked like a pretty solid mid-major, especially when they played their veterans). But did anybody notice how much zone Duke played?

Interesting that on a night when we were routing the best team from Albany (at least for the first 35 minutes or so), Kentucky was beating the second-best team from Albany by 13.

Kentucky looked extremely shaky tonight. I don't think either Duke or KY is a top 5 team right now, though I expect they will be at the end of the season (which is how I think the pollsters tend to vote) once K and Cal have worked their magic. I think you guys probably handle them on Tuesday unless Briscoe, who didn't play tonight with a knee issue, makes an absolute WORLD of difference. Excited to see Allen match up with Murray - should be very fun to watch.

Good luck tomorrow!

Bob Green

11-14-2015, 05:01 AM

Only negatives from me was the transition defense...

This is my takeaway as well. Sienna scored easily in transition. My big positive is how solid the veterans played. Amile Jefferson, Matt Jones and Grayson Allen are the core Coach K will build around. Marshall Plumlee as well to a smaller degree.

BD80

11-14-2015, 08:11 AM

... I love the possibilities with these line-ups, K will be a real chemist this year.

He will be an alchemist ... turning bronze into gold.

I saw what I expected to see, except more of (he got swole!) and from Amile. He and Grayson will be on the floor most of the time.

The frosh aren't as good as last year's frosh, but no frosh have EVER been as good as last year's frosh. Even next year's "best recruiting class ever" may pale in comparison to last year's frosh.

This year's frosh are good, and will contribute - a lot. Ingram will start and his minutes rise all year - by year-end, he won't come out much and he will be one of our top 2 offensive options. Luke will be first off the bench, take over time from Matt and be there in crunch time. ThorNton will be force-fed into the line-up, we need him to catch up, he missed the whole summer of working with the team - Doris said he is impressing the coaches with his progress. Compare him to Grayson last year, who was somewhat chained to the bench and had to develop in practices. Derryck will be in that second group of players with Luke and Matt in time on the court.

Jeter looked a little like a spider on a hot plate out there, but he showed so much potential that I think he will share time evenly with MP3 at the end of the season, depending on the heft of opposing big men. Marshall just doesn't have the feet to get to where he needs to be on defense. Chase is a bit lost, but it looks like he will get it. I'd rather have a well- positioned 220# center than an out of position, leaning, 250# center.

tux

11-14-2015, 08:42 AM

After reading through the thread I realize that I am much more bullish than most.

Once we asserted control, K was experimenting quite a bit. Especially in the second half, he messed around with a lot of line-ups and defensive looks. I heard and interview with him this week and he said that he accepts that Duke defense as he used to teach it is a thing of the past because guys don't stay long enough to master it. So, you make up for the inability to play the highest level man-to-man bu throwing out various zone looks. I get excited when we throw Amile and Brandon's length at the zop of that zone or press.

Grayson was DOMINANT. He really did pick up right where he left off at the Final Four. His drives were unstoppable, he hit some outside shots and he rebounded like a madman. If we get some version of this all year, we are going places.

This team is long and versitile. K is going to juggle line-ups a lot tomorrow I bet. I expect less variety for Kentucky but I think he's feeling free to see of he can figure out some intriguing line-ups as there is a lot to mix and match.

Ingram's 3 is a big part of his game and it will come. I thought he did a lot of nice stuff out there, he made some good passes.

I don't know, we cruised. I love the possibilities with these line-ups, K will be a real chemist this year.

I've only seen the 1st half at this point, but I agree. One thing I'd add re: the defense is that I think in addition to needing older, experienced players to play old-school Duke D, the offenses have also adjusted to that sort of denial-style D and have started spreading the floor and driving... (as an example, see the Miami game last year). So, it's a combination of being in a new OAD era and also that type of D not being as effective against teams with a couple of good ball handlers (IMO).

Re: Ingram. To be the best team we can be come March, we need Ingram to be a legitimate threat out to the 3-point line. We have to remember that there are still a lot of nerves for these freshmen and I'm more than willing to have Brandon struggle from 3 early if he can eventually find his stroke. He's already a nightmare to guard, but imagine if he has to be guarded out to 20ft. Of course, if he goes 1-9 vs Kentucky next week and we lose... ;)

Saratoga2

11-14-2015, 09:16 AM

59 seconds. In a situation like his, would it be normal for coach to say to him (before the first game), "as it stands right now, you won't play much. You can redshirt if you want." ?? In the very short time he played last night, I was interested in his movement. He seems to be a decent athlete, not the slow uncoordinated big man I thought he might be. No doubt he has a lot to learn, but he may just be that near seven footer, 250 pounder, who can develop into a nice player given a year or so to develop his game. He probably won't get much time this year, but could well take a similar role to that now held by Marshall.

weezie

11-14-2015, 09:36 AM

K has much work cut out for himself and I imagine he'd be the first to admit it. Somebody upstream mentioned perimeter defense and against a better opponent our team may be in trouble.
I hold my breath on some of Grayson's attacks but that's his style. All in all, the team looked fairly cohesive attitude-wise.

azzefkram

11-14-2015, 09:46 AM

Great to have Duke basketball back. Impressed with the amount of talent on this team. The starting five's D is really strong even with Greyson having a bit of an off night on the defensive end and Matt looking a tad slow. Amile and Brandon are really disruptive. I thought MP3 was very good on the defensive end even though I facepalmed on two of his fouls. Derryck, unsurprisingly, seems a bit behind the curve but his speed is something we haven't seen in a while. Luke and Chase both showed flashes.

Offensively we certainly have a way to go but have the pieces to again be a top ten offense. Greyson was amazing on the offensive end. Brandon is so versatile and smooth. I want to see him be more assertive. Amile did Amile things and Matt did Matt things which I think is great. Some seem disappointed in MP3's O but he had maybe 3 touches in the paint and I would hazard a guess that the coaching staff is fine with that. Luke looked as advertised. I think our half court O will be an issue until Derryck gets up to speed.

Per usual, Kedsy was correct about the rotation. It's going to be 7 to 7.5 man rotation with Chase being the last one in. I'll admit I was shocked to see Vrank in the game. I guess he doesn't want to and is comfortable playing garbage time minutes.

I expect us to have some headscratching performances early but be a Final Four capable team by March. As many have said over the summer, Derryck will be the key.

Dukehky

11-14-2015, 09:53 AM

Brandon needs to keep shooting. I think he was just keyed up last night. I actually didn't see him take any BAD three point shots. Most of them were wide open, he just didn't knock them in. Luke did similarly as did DT.

Our young players didn't shoot well in their first game. Not surprising. Not worried. Also, if we keep doing that 1-3-1 in spurts, that is going to give people fits once we get good at it.

Our starting line-up is huge, should be one of the best rebounding groups in the country with the way Jones and Allen attack the glass on top of Marshall and Jefferson doing yeoman's work down there. I don't know what Ingram's rebounding is like yet.

Potato Head

11-14-2015, 10:36 AM

I think we're going to have to willingly put up with some inconsistent offense from Ingram this season because he is a game-changer on defense. Having both him and Amile on the court, two Stretch Armstrong types who can lock up point guards and play in the post just makes our defense so much better.

Lar77

11-14-2015, 11:11 AM

Tough crowd here. Siena was better and more aggressive than advertised. Amile is moving well this year. Grayson is exciting to watch. MP3 really played well. A couple of out of positions but much better than years past. We're young. It will take some time. Thornton would be a high schooler right now, not playing D1 in front of 8000+.

How do you think Bo is doing today? WIU must be loaded with OADs

Steven43

11-14-2015, 11:55 AM

-I was wrong about Kennard. The kid can shoot and can play. I also like what I saw from his court vision
-Disappointed with Thornton's hunger. I am not expecting him to dominate from Day 1, but I am expecting to see some fire. There looked to be little fire.
How were you wrong about Kennard? You didn't think the kid could shoot and could play and had good court vision? From the first time I saw him on the court it was apparent to me that Luke Kennard could end up having one of Duke's all-time great four-year careers.

As for Thornton, what do you mean? You don't think he played hard? Did he not try on offense? Did he not seem bothered by his missed shots? What did he do or not do that concerned you?

weezie

11-14-2015, 12:09 PM

Tough crowd here....

...How do you think Bo is doing today?

Always a tough crowd here, since we're such experts! :cool:

And dear Bo, enjoy your serving of humble pie and don't whine this time!

hsheffield

11-14-2015, 12:19 PM

-have a good feeling about Kennard. reminds me a little of JJ-he looks like he's going to WILL himself to be great.

-Ingram seems like he's half a click away from finding his rhythm-though really close.

I mention these two because I'm hoping for more from outside the arc.

I hate losing to the cheaters and they shot 58% from 3 last night without Paige. I keep telling myself it's only one game and it's early....

flyingdutchdevil

11-14-2015, 12:34 PM

How were you wrong about Kennard? You didn't think the kid could shoot and could play and had good court vision? From the first time I saw him on the court it was apparent to me that Luke Kennard could end up having one of Duke's all-time great four-year careers.

I was one of few who felt that Kennard wasn't ready for the college game. I didn't think that his off-the-ball play and defense would be good enough, but it looks like he has the length to bother defenders. Call me a Kennard fan.

As for Thornton, what do you mean? You don't think he played hard? Did he not try on offense? Did he not seem bothered by his missed shots? What did he do or not do that concerned you?

I wasn't expecting Thornton to score much or assist much, but his shot selection wasn't ideal and he looked lackluster on D. He is speedy quick and also prides himself on D, so I was expecting a little more hustle on that side of the ball. Of course, this is the first game of the season and he's our least ready player, so I understand the issues will take time to resolve. He is, IMO, one of our most important players if Duke is to go far into the tournament as his quickness and (hopefully) court vision cannot be replicated by anyone else on the team. He's a unique player from that perspective.

MChambers

11-14-2015, 12:40 PM

Brandon needs to keep shooting. I think he was just keyed up last night. I actually didn't see him take any BAD three point shots. Most of them were wide open, he just didn't knock them in. Luke did similarly as did DT.

Ingram's 3 is a big part of his game and it will come. I thought he did a lot of nice stuff out there, he made some good passes.

Re: Ingram. To be the best team we can be come March, we need Ingram to be a legitimate threat out to the 3-point line. We have to remember that there are still a lot of nerves for these freshmen and I'm more than willing to have Brandon struggle from 3 early if he can eventually find his stroke. He's already a nightmare to guard, but imagine if he has to be guarded out to 20ft. Of course, if he goes 1-9 vs Kentucky next week and we lose... ;)

Boy, do I agree with you guys. I thought Ingram's shot looked good and he wasn't missing by all that much. If Duke is to be really good this year, he probably needs to be a three point threat. I'm sure the coaches, who see him shoot a lot more than we do, are telling him to take that shot.

FireOgilvie

11-14-2015, 01:19 PM

Boy, do I agree with you guys. I thought Ingram's shot looked good and he wasn't missing by all that much. If Duke is to be really good this year, he probably needs to be a three point threat. I'm sure the coaches, who see him shoot a lot more than we do, are telling him to take that shot.

Ingram is 3-23 (13%) on 3pts so far this year, including the exhibitions and CTC. Needless to say, he's significantly better when driving to the rim (and possibly drawing fouls). He didn't need to take 9 last night, which was more than Grayson and Luke combined.

elvis14

11-14-2015, 04:07 PM

Boy, do I agree with you guys. I thought Ingram's shot looked good and he wasn't missing by all that much. If Duke is to be really good this year, he probably needs to be a three point threat. I'm sure the coaches, who see him shoot a lot more than we do, are telling him to take that shot.

I thought Ingram's shot looked flat last night (lacking arc). I still want him taking open 3's. Hopefully they start to fall at a decent rate.

Wow was it good to see Duke basketball being played last night. Can't wait to watch tonight's game!

BD80

11-14-2015, 05:09 PM

I thought Ingram's shot looked flat last night (lacking arc). I still want him taking open 3's. Hopefully they start to fall at a decent rate. ...

Won't all objects fall at the same rate? Arc won't change the laws of physics

timmy c

11-14-2015, 07:36 PM

Won't all objects fall at the same rate? Arc won't change the laws of physics

I think you attempting to offer dissent about the descent of the ball. I hope you're not looking for a decent discussion of the best arc for a basketball shot. :p

elvis14

11-14-2015, 10:37 PM

Won't all objects fall at the same rate? Arc won't change the laws of physics

Yes, it will fall at the same rate...the angle however might have an effect on the number of shots that go thru that orange circle thingy.

whereinthehellami

11-16-2015, 10:00 AM

Identity. Duke played really well for being a team that is replacing four starters from a year ago. You could feel them trying to establish an identity. Guys trying to play together and trying to get on the same page. It almost felt a little forced. Like they are trying to get chemistry, quickly. Which isn't a bad thing but it isn't something you can force.

Yin and Yang. Some years the team identity just clicks. Everything just fits. Options 1-3 on offense, the shutdown defenders, and the leaders are no-brainers. This year i think it will be a balancing act, a lot of give and take. Do you use Thornton as a defender who can stop penetration while forgiving his offense limitations? Do you go with Plumlee for leadership and the intangibles while understanding he will only give you so much on offense and get burned on defense every so often?

superdave

11-16-2015, 11:45 AM

He is, IMO, one of our most important players if Duke is to go far into the tournament as his quickness and (hopefully) court vision cannot be replicated by anyone else on the team. He's a unique player from that perspective.

I think this is an important comment. Our guys have looked pretty good with a lot of promise against two lesser teams. Thornton lokked a little excited and maybe a little lost out there at times. He has a ton of ability and athleticism, so I think his growth may be the key to whether or not Duke contends for a title this season. He is the true point on the roster, and can keep our offense organized and help minimize one-on-one ball. He could be a big key to our halfcourt defense as well. He has more of a learning curve than Ingram and Kennard have. I will be very interested in seeing Thornton go against Kentucky tomorrow. Let's see how quickly he's climbing that learning curve.