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Olympic Fan
11-01-2015, 01:07 PM
Small consolation:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14026475/acc-suspends-field-officials-replay-officials-wild-miami-duke-finish

moonpie23
11-01-2015, 01:07 PM
here's the article (http://abc11.com/uncategorized/acc-suspends-officials-after-duke---miami-football-game/1062641/)

CDu
11-01-2015, 01:14 PM
here's the article (http://abc11.com/uncategorized/acc-suspends-officials-after-duke---miami-football-game/1062641/)

As I said in another thread, a predicable, spineless response.

The ACC admitted to only mistakes in the live action. They did not acknowledge that the review was handled poorly, and they flat-out denied that the officials used the review to overturn the penalty inappropriately. By only admitting fault on the live-action mistakes, they absolve themselves from having to discuss the possibility of changing the outcome.

And just 2 games penalty for that complete and utter incompetence is unacceptable.

freshmanjs
11-01-2015, 01:21 PM
As I said in another thread, a predicable, spineless response.

The ACC admitted to only mistakes in the live action. They did not acknowledge that the review was handled poorly, and they flat-out denied that the officials used the review to overturn the penalty inappropriately. By only admitting fault on the live-action mistakes, they absolve themselves from having to discuss the possibility of changing the outcome.

And just 2 games penalty for that complete and utter incompetence is unacceptable.

confused by your statement. to me, it's clear that they said the replay review was wrong on the knee being down. As they state:

"The replay official erred in not overturning the ruling on the field that the Miami player had released the ball prior to his knee being down. If called, this would have ended the game."

CDu
11-01-2015, 01:23 PM
confused by your statement. to me, it's clear that they said the replay review was wrong on the knee being down. As they state:

"The replay official erred in not overturning the ruling on the field that the Miami player had released the ball prior to his knee being down. If called, this would have ended the game."

You're right - I misread that. So only partially spineless.

prefan21
11-01-2015, 01:29 PM
Here's another article (from Yahoo): ACC acknowledges Miami should not have beaten Duke on last-second play (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/acc-acknowledges-miami-should-not-have-beaten-duke-on-last-second-play-175828927.html)



ACC acknowledges Miami should not have beaten Duke on last-second play

The ACC claims that victory should have never been awarded to Miami because of the following errors:

The replay official erred in not overturning the ruling on the field that the Miami player had released the ball prior to his knee being down. If called, this would have ended the game.

The on-field officials erred by failing to penalize Miami for an illegal block in the back at the Miami 16-yard line. If called, the ball would have been placed at the Miami 8-yard line and the game would have been extended for an untimed down.

A block in the back foul was called at the Duke 26-yard line. After the officials conferred, which is appropriate, they correctly determined that the block was from the side, which resulted in the flag being picked up. The replay official was not involved in the decision to pick up the flag; however, the referee did not effectively manage communication and properly explain why the flag was picked up.

In addition, the on-field crew failed to penalize a Miami player for leaving the bench area and entering the field prior to the end of the play. This foul would not have negated the touchdown because it would have been enforced as a dead ball foul.

dukelifer
11-01-2015, 01:38 PM
confused by your statement. to me, it's clear that they said the replay review was wrong on the knee being down. As they state:

"The replay official erred in not overturning the ruling on the field that the Miami player had released the ball prior to his knee being down. If called, this would have ended the game."

Did they look at the replay on the knee down and have a bad angle? Did they not look at it? Not looking at it at all would mean they were negligent. Looking at it and making the alternative judgement could be due to angle or something else- like bias (felt that Miami got screwed on earlier calls leading to Duke touchdown). It would be nice to know what happened here.

Papa John
11-01-2015, 01:45 PM
Did they look at the replay on the knee down and have a bad angle? Did they not look at it? Not looking at it at all would mean they were negligent. Looking at it and making the alternative judgement could be due to angle or something else- like bias (felt that Miami got screwed on earlier calls leading to Duke touchdown). It would be nice to know what happened here.

At the very least, they had the same angles that are available on replay to the television audience, and these provided clear and convincing evidence that Walton was down. One look at the downfield camera angle should have sealed it immediately—you didn't need the high-res still posted from the receiving end zone to reach such a simple conclusion (and it sure as heck didn't need to take 9 minutes)...

Les Grossman
11-01-2015, 01:46 PM
and don't suspend the replay guy, who obviously and incorrectly reversed them, after looking at tape for 30 seconds and horsing around for another 8.5 minutes? Yeah, that makes sense

Compounding errors

Mike Corey
11-01-2015, 01:47 PM
Miami's reaction to the ACC's admission that Duke should have won will not surprise you:

5646

SoCalDukeFan
11-01-2015, 01:50 PM
and don't suspend the replay guy, who obviously and incorrectly reversed them, after looking at tape for 30 seconds and horsing around for another 8.5 minutes? Yeah, that makes sense

Compounding errors

They said they suspended the entire crew.

SoCal

Mabdul Doobakus
11-01-2015, 01:51 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but seems relevant here as well:


A block in the back foul was called at the Duke 26-yard line. After the officials conferred, which is appropriate, they correctly determined that the block was from the side, which resulted in the flag being picked up. The replay official was not involved in the decision to pick up the flag; however, the referee did not effectively manage communication and properly explain why the flag was picked up.


This part is patently ridiculous. I don't buy for a second that this is what happened. They announced the penalty. I have never seen a penalty announced prior to the officials conferring. At any level of football, I have never seen that. I'm told that the flag stayed on the field for the entire 9 minute review only to finally be picked up at the very end. This is the error in the review process that ought lead to a longer suspension, and the ACC is lying about it.

Papa John
11-01-2015, 01:52 PM
and don't suspend the replay guy, who obviously and incorrectly reversed them, after looking at tape for 30 seconds and horsing around for another 8.5 minutes? Yeah, that makes sense

Compounding errors

They suspended all of them—the on-field crew, the replay official, and the communicator who serves as the conduit between the two crews. And Miami's reaction is perfectly fine—I'm not sure what folks here expect. That's how anyone would react if they were the beneficiary—it isn't their fault that the officials completely f'ed up the ending.



This part is patently ridiculous. I don't buy for a second that this is what happened. They announced the penalty. I have never seen a penalty announced prior to the officials conferring. At any level of football, I have never seen that. I'm told that the flag stayed on the field for the entire 9 minute review only to finally be picked up at the very end. This is the error in the review process that ought lead to a longer suspension, and the ACC is lying about it.

Actually, this is an excellent point, and one I completely glossed over given the other aspects of the keystone-cops routine that characterized the review of the play. Once the flag is down and the penalty announced, that presumes that the officials have conferred about the on-field penalty and reached agreement—you can't really 'take it back' at that point, so they really shouldn't have been in a position to pick up the flag at all... The only logical argument for doing so then becomes that of seeing something upon review that causes you to pick up the flag, but that is not allowed under the rules—a penalty is not reviewable [with the exception of the review of targeting to determine whether a player should or should not be ejected from the game]... So that and the botched review of Walton's knee being down are both egregiously bad, bad aspects of an all-around putrid, collective brain fart by last night's officials... Ugh...

Next play, next play... [time for another hot shower... still feel dirty after this whole sordid mess]

Mabdul Doobakus
11-01-2015, 01:55 PM
They suspended all of them—the on-field crew, the replay official, and the communicator who serves as the conduit between the two crews. And Miami's reaction is perfectly fine—I'm not sure what folks here expect. That's how anyone would react if they were the beneficiary—it isn't their fault that the officials completely f'ed up the ending.

Yeah, Miami's reaction is pretty much the only way they can react. Miami is actually my #2 team and having spent most of my life there, I can tell you that the very late and very questionable pass interference call in the 2002 Championship Game against Ohio State is something that will follow Miami fans to their grave. Miami was celebrating a championship on the field by the time anyone realized a flag had been thrown. They've been told to suck it up for over a decade now. Now it's Duke's turn.

dukelifer
11-01-2015, 02:02 PM
At the very least, they had the same angles that are available on replay to the television audience, and these provided clear and convincing evidence that Walton was down. One look at the downfield camera angle should have sealed it immediately—you didn't need the high-res still posted from the receiving end zone to reach such a simple conclusion (and it sure as heck didn't need to take 9 minutes)...

The person should explain what they saw and how they came to their judgement. Perhaps they felt the ball was not in control before the knee was down and it was a fumble. That is the only thing that could explain it.

CDu
11-01-2015, 02:06 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but seems relevant here as well:



This part is patently ridiculous. I don't buy for a second that this is what happened. They announced the penalty. I have never seen a penalty announced prior to the officials conferring. At any level of football, I have never seen that. I'm told that the flag stayed on the field for the entire 9 minute review only to finally be picked up at the very end. This is the error in the review process that ought lead to a longer suspension, and the ACC is lying about it.

Exactly. I can somewhat stomach them missing the live-action calls. I can almost stomach them taking 9 minutes and not see the knee down. But they butchered the rules by overturning the penalty on review. That is absolutely incredible. And now the ACC is lying about it.

dukelifer
11-01-2015, 02:08 PM
Exactly. I can somewhat stomach them missing the live-action calls. I can almost stomach them taking 9 minutes and not see the knee down. But they butchered the rules by overturning the penalty on review. That is absolutely incredible. And now the ACC is lying about it.

Is a penalty official once it is announced? That would be the key point.

Papa John
11-01-2015, 02:08 PM
The person should explain what they saw and how they came to their judgement. Perhaps they felt the ball was not in control before the knee was down and it was a fumble. That is the only thing that could explain it.

I assume they did explain this to the league office... And like McKayla Moroney (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/sports/NATL-McKayla-Maroney-Is-Not-Impressed-Meme-Hits-the-Blogospere-165585156.html), the league office was not impressed, which is why they basically acknowledged—'hey, the replay crew? they screwed up—they had video evidence to overturn the play as called on the field, and they didn't... bad on them, and they're suspended because of it.'

Atldukie79
11-01-2015, 02:16 PM
So the ACC issues a statement that the refs and review team goofed, and Duke should have won. Yet you go to the ACC website and the front page remains glossy marketing Pablum with no obvious reference to the suspension announcement. All you see are titles about Miami's epic game.

I get that they have described what was wrong on the play. But I still can't fathom what the ref and review team was thinking.

CharlesPeligro
11-01-2015, 02:19 PM
Exactly. I can somewhat stomach them missing the live-action calls. I can almost stomach them taking 9 minutes and not see the knee down. But they butchered the rules by overturning the penalty on review. That is absolutely incredible. And now the ACC is lying about it.

Yeah, I agree. My question is, what was the replay official reviewing after they announced their intermediate findings? I don't remember exactly what they said, but they did announce (incorrectly) that no player was down. Did they mention that all laterals were legal? If not, that was pretty obvious. So I don't understand what they were reviewing during that last stretch if they weren't reviewing the non-reviewable penalty.

Danke Shane
11-01-2015, 02:20 PM
So the ACC issues a statement that the refs and review team goofed, and Duke should have won. Yet you go to the ACC website and the front page remains glossy marketing Pablum with no obvious reference to the suspension announcement. All you see are titles about Miami's epic game.

I get that they have described what was wrong on the play. But I still can't fathom what the ref and review team was thinking.

I noticed the same thing. They're not going to overturn the result for no other reason than them wanting to flash this replay during every other "ACC FOOTBALL ROX!!" commercial for the next 100 years.

The fact that this happened to Duke vs. say oh a Florida State or Oklahoma makes it that much easier.

buddy
11-01-2015, 02:23 PM
Glad the league did something, but Adam Gold did hit on some good points on WRAL. Why run a disorganized kickoff return with your best tacklers on the sidelines. Why not kick out of bounds and have the regular, or prevent, defense on the field. Why at 4th and goal from the one in the first quarter do you put in the second team QB? (I agreed with the decision to go for 6, just questioning the tactics.) Was Will Monday instructed to do the rugby kick, or did he do that on his own? And if instructed, why do you have the best punter in the league fool around? Why does our QB have so much trouble going long? Why does our offensive plan so often appear to be suboptimal? The point is that we did not play our best game, the coaches did not coach their best game, and indeed we permitted the officials to determine the outcome. Fortunately, we were not going to be in the College Football Playoff, and still control our destiny in the Coastal. But next week is the difference between a terrific season and a so-so one. (And, yes, I confess to having become spoiled in recent years.)

dukelifer
11-01-2015, 02:26 PM
I assume they did explain this to the league office... And like McKayla Moroney (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/sports/NATL-McKayla-Maroney-Is-Not-Impressed-Meme-Hits-the-Blogospere-165585156.html), the league office was not impressed, which is why they basically acknowledged—'hey, the replay crew? they screwed up—they had video evidence to overturn the play as called on the field, and they didn't... bad on them, and they're suspended because of it.'

Sure - but what did they say? I saw nothing- I did not review that aspect- I thought he wasn't down but now you point it out- I guess you are right? Did this person argue a point? Either this was complete incompetence or they had some reason that formed the basis of their judgement.

Newton_14
11-01-2015, 02:26 PM
I have not yet read all the posts in the post game thread yet, as I was too furious and emotional when I got home from the game last night, and refused to turn on my computer or watch any news coverage, and I went to church this morning so this is my first time commenting. I have never left Wallace Wade that mad, furious, pick a word. I was sitting in the alumni box (and by the way, two Miami fans wearing Miami gear somehow got passes, and chose to sit there, rather than in the Miami section, which was downright rude, and just wrong. Several Duke people in the box called them out on it, so it got ugly in there long before the ignorance at the end of the game. So you got the pass to get in the game. Fine. I have no issue with that. But do not dare sit in the Alumni Box! Take your fannies to the Miami section and sit with your fellow fans!). So all of the laterals, and the Miami player being down by contact happened in front of us. I had a clear view of that play. One of the laterals was iffy as the pass was thrown from the 4 yard line and looked to me like it was caught at the 5 yard line.

However, the down by contact and the illegal blocks were clear as day, and the refs absolutely failed to do their jobs, and so in a game Duke won fairly and squarely 27-24, the record books will forever show 30-27, and this is something I will never accept, or get over. I will always declare and refer to this game as a Duke win. Oh, and McCaffrey was down by contact also. He did not fumble. Also, I don't care what the ACC or the refs say, the decision to pick the flag up on the illegal block in the back call, was NOT made until the replay official reviewed it on video. That is illegal. You cannot review a penalty. The officials on the field did NOT huddle and then go pick the flag up. Game over Duke wins right then and there.

Also, here are the 4 points that are in the WRAL article on the refs and replay official being suspended.


1) "The replay official erred in not overturning the ruling on the field that the Miami player had released the ball prior to his knee being down. If called, this would have ended the game."
2) "The on-field officials erred by failing to penalize Miami for an illegal block in the back at the Miami 16-yard line. If called, the ball would have been placed at the Miami 8-yard line and the game would have been extended for an untimed down."

I do not understand the bold. There was no time remaining on the clock, and while a game cannot end on a penalty on the defense, but it can end on a penalty on the offense. You have the 10 second run off if there is a penalty on the offense, but since the clock was run out, it should be game over. Why would Miami get another chance on a untimed play when they were the offensive team and they were called for a penalty???

3) "A block in the back foul was called at the Duke 26-yard line. After the officials conferred, which is appropriate, they correctly determined that the block was from the side, which resulted in the flag being picked up. The replay official was not involved in the decision to pick up the flag; however, the referee did not effectively manage communication and properly explain why the flag was picked up."

4) "In addition, the on-field crew failed to penalize a Miami player for leaving the bench area and entering the field prior to the end of the play. This foul would not have negated the touchdown because it would have been enforced as a dead ball foul."
Read more at http://www.wralsportsfan.com/acc-suspends-officials-after-duke-miami-final-play-flub/15051420/#tO6S9jHVqsDEXXEL.99

Read more at http://www.wralsportsfan.com/acc-suspends-officials-after-duke-miami-final-play-flub/15051420/#tO6S9jHVqsDEXXEL.99

What should have happened today:
1. Duke should be declared the winner of the game
2. The Replay Official should be fired.
3. The officials on the field should be suspended (the only thing the ACC got correct in this sordid mess)

It is hands down the worst end of game officiating, replay officiating, and overall handling of a play that I personally have ever seen in all my years watching Football on any level.

The ACC should be embarrassed and humiliated. It was that bad!!!!

This sucks!!

dukelifer
11-01-2015, 02:36 PM
Glad the league did something, but Adam Gold did hit on some good points on WRAL. Why run a disorganized kickoff return with your best tacklers on the sidelines. Why not kick out of bounds and have the regular, or prevent, defense on the field. Why at 4th and goal from the one in the first quarter do you put in the second team QB? (I agreed with the decision to go for 6, just questioning the tactics.) Was Will Monday instructed to do the rugby kick, or did he do that on his own? And if instructed, why do you have the best punter in the league fool around? Why does our QB have so much trouble going long? Why does our offensive plan so often appear to be suboptimal? The point is that we did not play our best game, the coaches did not coach their best game, and indeed we permitted the officials to determine the outcome. Fortunately, we were not going to be in the College Football Playoff, and still control our destiny in the Coastal. But next week is the difference between a terrific season and a so-so one. (And, yes, I confess to having become spoiled in recent years.)

Well on your first point - even with your best tacklers the refs may not see a tackle when it happens or the others may be blocked in the back before they can tackle- but yes Duke made a ton of mistakes and they were fortunate to be in a position to win the game. But with all the mistakes they still came back. No question that the next game will have much to say how the season is perceived long term.

WiJoe
11-01-2015, 02:40 PM
1. Duke should be declared the winner of the game


This is really the only thing that matters. It would NEVER happen. It should.

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

devildeac
11-01-2015, 02:48 PM
Wonder if Fedora will have the suspensions reviewed/shortened/appealed so those same arseclowns can ref the game in chappaheeya this Saturday:mad::mad:.

Or maybe he'll simply have some rings custom made for them. :mad::mad:

Sixthman
11-01-2015, 02:48 PM
It's nice the ACC admits the mistakes. I am amazed by one of their rulings. They acknowledged that a 12th miami player entered the field during the play, this should have been flagged but THAT Miami's touchdown would have counted even if the flag for illegal participation had been thrown (presumably this would have resulted in a no time kick off to a duke). However, the implication of this is that if EVERY PLAYER ON THE MIAMI TEAM had run on to the field and blocked every Duke player, the touchdown would have counted. How could that be??

budwom
11-01-2015, 03:22 PM
It's nice the ACC admits the mistakes. I am amazed by one of their rulings. They acknowledged that a 12th miami player entered the field during the play, this should have been flagged but THAT Miami's touchdown would have counted even if the flag for illegal participation had been thrown (presumably this would have resulted in a no time kick off to a duke). However, the implication of this is that if EVERY PLAYER ON THE MIAMI TEAM had run on to the field and blocked every Duke player, the touchdown would have counted. How could that be??

Yeah, I admit I don't know the precise rule, but I absolutely refuse to believe that a guy entering the field of play (while a play is taking place) is a dead ball foul.
I would bet you can add that to the list of stuff they got wrong.

bjornolf
11-01-2015, 03:30 PM
It's nice the ACC admits the mistakes. I am amazed by one of their rulings. They acknowledged that a 12th miami player entered the field during the play, this should have been flagged but THAT Miami's touchdown would have counted even if the flag for illegal participation had been thrown (presumably this would have resulted in a no time kick off to a duke). However, the implication of this is that if EVERY PLAYER ON THE MIAMI TEAM had run on to the field and blocked every Duke player, the touchdown would have counted. How could that be??

That's what I was wondering.

TKG
11-01-2015, 03:31 PM
Adam Gold did hit on some good points on WRAL.

Must have been Halloween.

Mabdul Doobakus
11-01-2015, 03:39 PM
It's nice the ACC admits the mistakes. I am amazed by one of their rulings. They acknowledged that a 12th miami player entered the field during the play, this should have been flagged but THAT Miami's touchdown would have counted even if the flag for illegal participation had been thrown (presumably this would have resulted in a no time kick off to a duke). However, the implication of this is that if EVERY PLAYER ON THE MIAMI TEAM had run on to the field and blocked every Duke player, the touchdown would have counted. How could that be??

I was wondering this last night as well. My guess is the penalty is different if it's ruled that the 12th guy interfered with the play. But that's just my guess.

cruxer
11-01-2015, 04:00 PM
I was wondering this last night as well. My guess is the penalty is different if it's ruled that the 12th guy interfered with the play. But that's just my guess.

That's the difference. It's basically a dead ball celebration penalty unless the extra players actually interfere with the play.

cruxer
11-01-2015, 04:05 PM
I do not understand the bold. There was no time remaining on the clock, and while a game cannot end on a penalty on the defense, but it can end on a penalty on the offense. You have the 10 second run off if there is a penalty on the offense, but since the clock was run out, it should be game over. Why would Miami get another chance on a untimed play when they were the offensive team and they were called for a penalty???



This is a quirk in the rules that has probably never mattered before, and didn't last night thanks to the no call, but technically the kickoff team is offense and the receiving team is defense. Can you imagine if they had flagged that block in the back then Miami scored on the subsequent hail Mary? Everybody would be talking today about how that rule should be changed.

buddy
11-01-2015, 04:06 PM
I believe if you come off the bench and tackle the ball carrier it is ruled a touchdown. This is an old rule because such plays actually happened. (One of many things forgotten in my old age.) I also believe that if you interfere with the play that it is some form of penalty. I don't understand why this isn't an illegal substitution, which should nullify the play (or which the offended team could elect to accept thereby nullifying the play). But if it is dead ball penalty in this situation, where the ball is alive but time has expired, then it is a freeby.

Also, I know the game can't end on an offensive penalty, but I am not enough of a rules geek to know who is on offense and who is on defense on a kicking play. Officials always refer to "the kicking team" or the "receiving team". In this situation, with time having expired, it gives the offending team another chance, which doesn't seem fair. Maybe there are no rules to cover situations where penalties occur after time has expired. Heaven knows I'm not in favor of more rules, but this seems like an appropriate situation.

Vanceman201
11-01-2015, 04:10 PM
Sorry if this has been addressed.

First off...yes, the Miami player's knee was down. Second, the block in the "back" at the end was close enough to be called.

But, THIS block in the back...was a monster. I first saw it as I reran "the play" back and forth on Dish Network's really good slow motion right after the play.

I'm including this link to the Youtube video...so I can reference the time numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17SoN_dvnBU

***I've not seen this block in the back mentioned....and it's the clearest one.

It happens slightly to the left of the middle of the screen....at :38 of this Youtube video...at the Miami 16 yard line....Miami #22 clobbers Duke #37 squarely in the back.

Several significant calls missed at the end of this game.

Let's see if the ACC has the stones to reverse the winner in this game.

tobers
11-01-2015, 04:17 PM
I wrote the ACC as a Georgia Tech alum. If you think of this from lesser to greater, they should award Duke the victory. The whole reason we have instant replay is because we value getting it right, even if it takes more time, and even if it means reversing a call. If we feel that way about a single call, the lesser, shouldn't we feel that way about the greater: the outcome of the game? We should.

It's not true that if this was reversed it would set bad precedent; it would set good precedent. The league could set parameters for a reversal, much like "only these calls can be reviewed." The parameters for reversing a game would likely only involve games that involve a final play, that was clearly ruled wrongly. Replay is supposed to eliminate these games. I think this would be a very, very rare occurrence. This is in a different category than trying to decide whether a receiver held on to a ball long enough to be a catch.

I don't expect them to demonstrate the courage to do it, but the arguments for doing it are quite strong, and the logic for not doing it doesn't hold up.

We can't control the ACC. We can control how we play next week. Time to get ready for next week.

Potato Head
11-01-2015, 04:18 PM
I noticed the same thing. They're not going to overturn the result for no other reason than them wanting to flash this replay during every other "ACC FOOTBALL ROX!!" commercial for the next 100 years.

The fact that this happened to Duke vs. say oh a Florida State or Oklahoma makes it that much easier.

I've been thinking along these same lines. I remember as we were waiting an eternity for the "review" wondering whether part of that review involved a phone call to ACC HQ asking them if they thought it was a good idea to overturn such an epic play.

freshmanjs
11-01-2015, 04:20 PM
We can't control the ACC. We can control how we play next week. Time to get ready for next week.

We can? How? What should I do?

weezie
11-01-2015, 04:22 PM
So, granted the team will be tight-lipped, chins up, as will Cut, but does anybody know anything about how our men are taking the loss?

Considering how they fought and clawed their way back into this game, that's the real sadness of it all.

SilkyJ
11-01-2015, 04:24 PM
In the history of sports, I can't think of a play more botched by the refs than this one. Just in terms of quantity of screw ups and missed calls on a single play that changed the outcome. And all of the screw ups went against us somehow. WTF has never been a more appropriate acronym than right now.

The good news, since it's so obvious we're really 7-1 & 4-0. I don't acknowledge anyone or any publication who says otherwise. I also don't think the ACC has the power to change anything, do they? In fact I'd bet my minuscule life savings they can't.

dukebluedevin
11-01-2015, 04:30 PM
'06 Duke grad here, long time board reader, but not even two national championships since graduation pushed me to post until this football debacle. I email Commissioner Swofford last night and received a generic "thanks, please read the press release" email back from Amy Yakola the Chief of external affairs. I replied with the following:

"Thank you for the response. I did see the press release and while it is a good first step, it is not an appropriate solution and the explanation is incomplete or blatantly wrong.

One: The missed block in the back foul (or the one called and "picked up" after it was announced in the stadium and then clearly reviewed despite a claim otherwise) was an offensive penalty. If called appropriately, Miami would not have been awarded an untimed down as is done in the case of a defense penalty. Rewarding the penalized team with an extra down would allow any offense to commit a foul in order to gain an advantage.

Second, the ACC should investigate exactly how the game officials handled "picking up" the flag for an illegal block in the back. The officials discussed the play, announced it in the stadium and then specifically addressed the foul after reviewing film. Not only is that not standard procedure, it argues that the officials are not being truthful in their explanation of their actions.

Third, and most importantly, if the ACC agrees that the touchdown should not have counted for any or all of the stated reasons, the only fair solution is to change the score and state, officially, that Duke won the football game. Anything less lacks integrity and devalues the ACC and the game.

The ACC must do the right thing. A simple "oops" is pathetic."

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-01-2015, 04:31 PM
So, granted the team will be tight-lipped, chins up, as will Cut, but does anybody know anything about how our men are taking the loss?

Considering how they fought and clawed their way back into this game, that's the real sadness of it all.

They were pissed immediately after the game and would not talk about it. It was disheartening. It went against all the teachings of fair play and honor. By this morning, they are following their training to ditch the negative thoughts and start focusing on the next game.

The fans and parents, however, are another matter. There are petitions circulating online citing the ACC's acknowledgment of at least some of the wrongdoing and based on that, calling for the outcome to be overturned.

OldPhiKap
11-01-2015, 04:35 PM
'06 Duke grad here, long time board reader, but not even two national championships since graduation pushed me to post until this football debacle. I email Commissioner Swofford last night and received a generic "thanks, please read the press release" email back from Amy Yakola the Chief of external affairs. I replied with the following:

"Thank you for the response. I did see the press release and while it is a good first step, it is not an appropriate solution and the explanation is incomplete or blatantly wrong.

One: The missed block in the back foul (or the one called and "picked up" after it was announced in the stadium and then clearly reviewed despite a claim otherwise) was an offensive penalty. If called appropriately, Miami would not have been awarded an untimed down as is done in the case of a defense penalty. Rewarding the penalized team with an extra down would allow any offense to commit a foul in order to gain an advantage.

Second, the ACC should investigate exactly how the game officials handled "picking up" the flag for an illegal block in the back. The officials discussed the play, announced it in the stadium and then specifically addressed the foul after reviewing film. Not only is that not standard procedure, it argues that the officials are not being truthful in their explanation of their actions.

Third, and most importantly, if the ACC agrees that the touchdown should not have counted for any or all of the stated reasons, the only fair solution is to change the score and state, officially, that Duke won the football game. Anything less lacks integrity and devalues the ACC and the game.

The ACC must do the right thing. A simple "oops" is pathetic."

Incredibly well-stated. (And hope you continue to post on happier subjects!)

moonpie23
11-01-2015, 04:46 PM
In the history of sports, I can't think of a play more botched by the refs than this one..

uhh....boozer was fouled...

weezie
11-01-2015, 04:48 PM
In the history of sports, I can't think of a play more botched by the refs than this one. Just in terms of quantity of screw ups and missed calls on a single play that changed the outcome. And all of the screw ups went against us somehow. WTF has never been a more appropriate acronym than right now...

Kinda makes me miss Karl Hess...

dukebluedevin
11-01-2015, 04:55 PM
Well, this was unexpected: in response to my email, Amy Yakola asked for my number and called me. She was very polite and we discussed each of my concerns. She stated, correctly I believe, that a football game cannot end on a penalty regardless of the team called for the foul. I asked for this point to be clarified by the ACC to prevent a future penalized team from gaining an advantage. She said the conference office did a full review of the officials' actions and implied that no further investigation would be done. Regarding my request for Duke to be declared the winner, she made it clear this was NOT possible. So, the loss stands. Time will tell if any rules are addressed.

chainsaw
11-01-2015, 04:56 PM
Kinda makes me miss Karl Hess...

Heck, even Ted Valentine was an officiating genius compared to that gang last night.

OldPhiKap
11-01-2015, 04:57 PM
Well, this was unexpected: in response to my email, Amy Yakola asked for my number and called me. She was very polite and we discussed each of my concerns. She stated, correctly I believe, that a football game cannot end on a penalty regardless of the team called for the foul. I asked for this point to be clarified by the ACC to prevent a future penalized team from gaining an advantage. She said the conference office did a full review of the officials' actions and implied that no further investigation would be done. Regarding my request for Duke to be declared the winner, she made it clear this was NOT possible. So, the loss stands. Time will tell if any rules are addressed.

Thanks

richardjackson199
11-01-2015, 05:04 PM
There is only one way we are going to beat UNC next weekend, and that is acceptance. We saw what happened when a great Maryland hoops team in 2001 lost in epic fashion to Duke and went on to lose something like 4 of the next 5 games to inferior opponents.
By acceptance our team needs to move quickly and immediately through the stages of grief. I believe it would be prudent for we as a fanbase to do the same. After the game, I was devastated.
Kubler-Ross Stages of Grief:
1. Shock - WTF!
2. Denial -- I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to think about it. Change the channel to the World Series.
3. Anger - His knee was down! They can't review an unreviewable penalty!
4. Bargaining -- If we all write the ACC, they should overturn the game and give Duke the win we deserve.
5. Depression -- We got screwed, it's not fair, and now we're going to lose to UNC.
6. Acceptance -- Congratulations Miami on a great win. We are Duke. We are accepting the loss. No excuses. We should not have put the game in the hands of the officials, and next weekend we won't. Next play. We're going to prepare so hard this week and play so hard nobody is going to debate who should have won next weekend while we're painting the victory bell. Maybe we'll even spill a little bit on their walls too. No whining about officiating here, we are not IC. We control our own destiny, and that destiny is winning. Keep getting better, and let's see just how good this team can be.

I truly believe if the team gets stuck at any stages prior to Acceptance, we're in for a long and depressing rest of the season. If we move to Acceptance of the loss, this football season can be our most special yet under Cut.

In reality, I do believe slimy Swofford's swift response was shrewd and calculated. I believe the ACC lied and the officials did review that unreviewable penalty flag. I don't think they did it maliciously. At the time they were just being incompetent and trying to get it right. But it's time to move on. Firing them vs. suspending them won't change anything for us. I respectfully disagree with many on this board. I really don't think we want to set a precedent of overturning games after the outcome has been decided. I believe it's just better to understand that bad officiating, missed calls, blown calls, even completely botched replay reviews and incompetent refereeing are part of the game. Let the ACC worry about getting better officiating at games. But we don't want to set a precedent to overturn games. Duke has also benefitted from many questionable officiating decisions. I'm not saying they were wrong decisions - but they were questionable. How would we feel if the next day the BC game got overturned because they decided the guy caught the pass in the endzone on replay? Or that last year the next day they decide to overturn our win in Cameron because Swofford decides that Justise held and fouled Tokoto allowing Tyus to score so the game should not be in overtime. Or that Kentucky really did not lose to Wisconsin because Winsconsin scored a bucket on what should have been a shot-clock violation - replay next day shows ball was still in his hands. Or maybe they find a play on replay in the National Championship late in the game that rules that the ball really was off a Duke player out of bounds. But we scored a big 3 when we were awarded possession. These weren't final plays in the game, but they were all big plays that could have affected the outcome of close games. I'm not convinced Sirk really scored on the play prior to the kickoff against Miami. We benefitted there from officiating and questionable video replay. What if we won the game there, but somebody decides the next day Sirk did not get in and overturns that?

I love Duke and Coach K's mantra of No Excuses, No whining about officiating, just accept it's part of the game, next play. I think after what transpired, Duke got the best possible outcome with the ACC's slimy response, in that they admitted and everyone knows we got screwed. Just my 2 cents, but I say accept the loss, Congrats Miami, and all energy directed toward go win the next one in emphatic, undeniable fashion. GTHC. (Man it would be sweet to spoil their coastal division hopes after what they did to us last year).

devildeac
11-01-2015, 05:13 PM
Kinda makes me miss Karl Hess...

Who do you think the referee was last night? Did anyone see karl hess around anywhere? Remember, it was Halloween...

:rolleyes:

Tripping William
11-01-2015, 05:27 PM
Who do you think the referee was last night? Did anyone see karl hess around anywhere? Remember, it was Halloween...

:rolleyes:

Seemed to me it was either Stevie Wonder or Andrea Bocelli.

gurufrisbee
11-01-2015, 05:55 PM
Suspending the refs is what you do when they make one huge error on a game deciding play at the end of the game.

They made SEVEN!

Overturn the game.

SilkyJ
11-01-2015, 06:06 PM
uhh...boozer was fouled...

Its over

DukePA
11-01-2015, 06:22 PM
There is only one way we are going to beat UNC next weekend, and that is acceptance. We saw what happened when a great Maryland hoops team in 2001 lost in epic fashion to Duke and went on to lose something like 4 of the next 5 games to inferior opponents.
By acceptance our team needs to move quickly and immediately through the stages of grief. I believe it would be prudent for we as a fanbase to do the same. After the game, I was devastated.
Kubler-Ross Stages of Grief:
1. Shock - WTF!
2. Denial -- I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to think about it. Change the channel to the World Series.
3. Anger - His knee was down! They can't review an unreviewable penalty!
4. Bargaining -- If we all write the ACC, they should overturn the game and give Duke the win we deserve.
5. Depression -- We got screwed, it's not fair, and now we're going to lose to UNC.
6. Acceptance -- Congratulations Miami on a great win. We are Duke. We are accepting the loss. No excuses. We should not have put the game in the hands of the officials, and next weekend we won't. Next play. We're going to prepare so hard this week and play so hard nobody is going to debate who should have won next weekend while we're painting the victory bell. Maybe we'll even spill a little bit on their walls too. No whining about officiating here, we are not IC. We control our own destiny, and that destiny is winning. Keep getting better, and let's see just how good this team can be.

I truly believe if the team gets stuck at any stages prior to Acceptance, we're in for a long and depressing rest of the season. If we move to Acceptance of the loss, this football season can be our most special yet under Cut.

In reality, I do believe slimy Swofford's swift response was shrewd and calculated. I believe the ACC lied and the officials did review that unreviewable penalty flag. I don't think they did it maliciously. At the time they were just being incompetent and trying to get it right. But it's time to move on. Firing them vs. suspending them won't change anything for us. I respectfully disagree with many on this board. I really don't think we want to set a precedent of overturning games after the outcome has been decided. I believe it's just better to understand that bad officiating, missed calls, blown calls, even completely botched replay reviews and incompetent refereeing are part of the game. Let the ACC worry about getting better officiating at games. But we don't want to set a precedent to overturn games. Duke has also benefitted from many questionable officiating decisions. I'm not saying they were wrong decisions - but they were questionable. How would we feel if the next day the BC game got overturned because they decided the guy caught the pass in the endzone on replay? Or that last year the next day they decide to overturn our win in Cameron because Swofford decides that Justise held and fouled Tokoto allowing Tyus to score so the game should not be in overtime. Or that Kentucky really did not lose to Wisconsin because Winsconsin scored a bucket on what should have been a shot-clock violation - replay next day shows ball was still in his hands. Or maybe they find a play on replay in the National Championship late in the game that rules that the ball really was off a Duke player out of bounds. But we scored a big 3 when we were awarded possession. These weren't final plays in the game, but they were all big plays that could have affected the outcome of close games. I'm not convinced Sirk really scored on the play prior to the kickoff against Miami. We benefitted there from officiating and questionable video replay. What if we won the game there, but somebody decides the next day Sirk did not get in and overturns that?

I love Duke and Coach K's mantra of No Excuses, No whining about officiating, just accept it's part of the game, next play. I think after what transpired, Duke got the best possible outcome with the ACC's slimy response, in that they admitted and everyone knows we got screwed. Just my 2 cents, but I say accept the loss, Congrats Miami, and all energy directed toward go win the next one in emphatic, undeniable fashion. GTHC. (Man it would be sweet to spoil their coastal division hopes after what they did to us last year).

Excellent post. As the dust settles, one thing we have that no ref can ever steal is the high road. Sure it sucks to be screwed, but no one can reasonably accuse Duke of getting all the calls after last night. Furthermore, can you imagine the veracity of the Duke Hatred Tsunami if the game is overturned? I live in eastern NC and encounter too much Duke hatred as it is. Let's keep our chins up, our dignity intact and move on. Go To Hell Carolina!!! Go To Hell!!! (eat poop.That wasn't terribly dignified, was it? :D )

OldPhiKap
11-01-2015, 06:32 PM
Wow,catching ABC national news. One headline story -- "Worst call ever? " is about the final play. Should come on in next 25 minutes or so, sounds like last story of broadcast.

IsInTheDetails
11-01-2015, 06:33 PM
Before I say anything else, my hat's off to Miami for playing a strong football game, especially after the turbulence they experienced over the previous week. Until the last few minutes, the outcome of the game was never really in question, and they earned it.

But the outcome of the game did change. Duke had two impressive drives on offense, sandwiching a great stop on defense, and managed the clock well, leaving us up three with mere seconds to play.

What happened in those six seconds (and forty more) was scintillating. As a Duke fan, it was heartbreaking. For a Miami fan, it was thrilling. The minutes of official review that followed were gut-wrenching for both sides.

And the officials plainly got it wrong, despite having all the time and technology at their disposal to get it right. The ACC has said as much, and they've punished the offenders. I personally think the punishment is just, and I applaud the ACC for stating clearly that one of those errors changed the outcome of the game.

In all sports, there are games in which officiating - done well, or done poorly - influences the course of events. In this instance, officiating - done poorly - unambiguously decided its binary outcome.

I may not agree with the call on McCaffery's "fumble," but it doesn't matter, because I have no way of knowing what would have ensued had they called it differently. Miami fans may not agree with the call on Sirk's final touchdown, but that too doesn't matter, because they have no way of knowing what would have ensued had they called it differently.

In the case of "The Knee" (I will not call it "The Return," despite UM's PR effort), there is no uncertainty about the ensuing events had the error been rectified. The game ends. Duke wins.

The outcome matters. Sure, Duke still "controls its destiny" in the Coastal, but there are objectively fewer paths for us to win the division with this loss, and thus fewer chances for the team to play for an ACC championship. Moreover, W-L records matter for national rankings, bowl selection, and recruiting.

So, we have a case in which (1) an error was made and officially acknowledged, (2) that error unambiguously altered the outcome, and (3) that outcome has real consequences for the young men, the program, and the conference. Which is why I think the conference should correct the outcome.

Will they do it? No, I don't think they will.

Should they do it? I've wrestled with this since the game ended, but I think they should. The replay era has already introduced plenty of unintended consequences, and there's no going back, but in aggregate I think replay has improved accountability and accuracy for on-field officiating. I don't have any problem with taking that to the extreme case, in which accountability and accuracy are enforced to the point of revising the W-L column, when there is no uncertainty that an error incorrectly determined the outcome.

oldnavy
11-01-2015, 07:10 PM
Glad the league did something, but Adam Gold did hit on some good points on WRAL. Why run a disorganized kickoff return with your best tacklers on the sidelines. Why not kick out of bounds and have the regular, or prevent, defense on the field. Why at 4th and goal from the one in the first quarter do you put in the second team QB? (I agreed with the decision to go for 6, just questioning the tactics.) Was Will Monday instructed to do the rugby kick, or did he do that on his own? And if instructed, why do you have the best punter in the league fool around? Why does our QB have so much trouble going long? Why does our offensive plan so often appear to be suboptimal? The point is that we did not play our best game, the coaches did not coach their best game, and indeed we permitted the officials to determine the outcome. Fortunately, we were not going to be in the College Football Playoff, and still control our destiny in the Coastal. But next week is the difference between a terrific season and a so-so one. (And, yes, I confess to having become spoiled in recent years.)

Discussing Duke's miscues is completely pointless and isn't the issue at all.

This is a discussion of how incompetent the professionals on the field were last night.

When players and coaches make mistakes, they don't get a chance to go back and have a "do over", the refs do, and when they still can't get it right you have to wonder why and they have to be held accountable. That is what this is about, so please don't confuse the issues.

Duke could have, would have, should have, Miami could have, would have, should have.... so what.

That's not the point.

weezie
11-01-2015, 07:31 PM
...When players and coaches make mistakes, they don't get a chance to go back and have a "do over", the refs do, and when they still can't get it right you have to wonder why and they have to be held accountable. That is what this is about...

Nail meet hammer. Excellent oldnavy.

grad_devil
11-01-2015, 07:52 PM
Chris Chase from USA Today calls for the result to be overturned.

Link (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/overturn-miami-duke-game-kickoff-youtube-touchdown-eight-lateral-suspension-vacate-victory)

Also states that NCAA bylaws state that once an official signals the end of a contest, the result cannot be changed. He says that rule should "go the way of the dodo".

mattman91
11-01-2015, 08:07 PM
Kinda makes me miss Karl Hess...

Stop that....

Lulu
11-01-2015, 08:46 PM
There needs to be an investigation and report as to how that flag was picked up. I hate being lied to. They need to record the officials' audio if they don't. Do we even know who threw the flag, because I'm betting it was not the head official making all the announcements, essentially proving it had already been conferred upon to some extent. So which one of those guys came back and overturned it, and when did he possibly do so? Were there no cameras on these officials throughout most of this absurd process? It makes zero sense and is a lie.

And that's knowing it's not the game-deciding play, being the ACC has admitted the knee being down was missed upon review and should have ended the game in Duke's favor. I really hope the mob of journalists and talking heads, if not the public doing what we can, pressures the ACC into REALLY examining this and admitting what happened.

Aside from that, we all deserve an explanation of what on earth the review official thought he was looking at. Just saying he got it wrong doesn't cut it in this situation. It decided the game.

blazindw
11-01-2015, 08:51 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but seems relevant here as well:



This part is patently ridiculous. I don't buy for a second that this is what happened. They announced the penalty. I have never seen a penalty announced prior to the officials conferring. At any level of football, I have never seen that. I'm told that the flag stayed on the field for the entire 9 minute review only to finally be picked up at the very end. This is the error in the review process that ought lead to a longer suspension, and the ACC is lying about it.

This is actually the 2nd game I've attended live in 2015 where there was a penalty called that benefitted my team, it was announced to the crowd and then after a review and conference, it was taken away, costing my team the game. Last night's game was preceded by the Lions-Cowboys game in an 2015 NFL Wildcard playoff game back in January.

Needless to say, I'm still angry...

Lulu
11-01-2015, 08:56 PM
Yeah, there was some poor communication, but that's a giant cop-out in this mess, being used to try to hide if not distract from what actually occurred. (i.e. "no, we didn't throw out the rule book and review what we're not allowed to review and then perhaps re-review again what we're not allowed to if we didn't the first time, we just spent 9 minutes unable to effectively communicate with each other, that's all...") What was "still under review"? Details should be demanded.

HK Dukie
11-01-2015, 09:34 PM
I would like an explanation of what the lead ref was going to say after the 1st review. Why the pause, then another review? WTF happened?

There are many possibilities here including,

(1) 1st replay was about the knee and flag was going to stand, then replay official jumped in to review the flag

(2) ref was going to say replay overturned the flag, then the replay official realized that can't be done and stopped the ref from saying that (the sinister option)

(3) replay official saw something questionable and needed more time

Look, I know the NCAA won't overturn this game. Maybe they can change the rule for the future. What I want most is an explanation for our players. They deserve to know exactly what happened and just how the process was screwed up at least.

DukieInKansas
11-01-2015, 09:49 PM
Chris Chase from USA Today calls for the result to be overturned.

Link (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/overturn-miami-duke-game-kickoff-youtube-touchdown-eight-lateral-suspension-vacate-victory)

Also states that NCAA bylaws state that once an official signals the end of a contest, the result cannot be changed. He says that rule should "go the way of the dodo".

Since Mr. Dodo appears to have been the replay official, I think the game did go the way of the dodo.

ChrisP
11-01-2015, 09:58 PM
So, if we lose the coastal division championship because of the refs' nonsense, should Cut do like the Hat did a couple years ago and still get his team some rings?

moonpie23
11-01-2015, 10:14 PM
this whole thing has made me want to yack... :( regardless, i'm starting to accept that it's done....

next play...

Duke95
11-01-2015, 10:20 PM
So, if we lose the coastal division championship because of the refs' nonsense, should Cut do like the Hat did a couple years ago and still get his team some rings?

No.

What we should do is give everyone who says "Duke gets all the calls" a nice big F U next time they say it.

DukeFanFor58yrs
11-01-2015, 10:49 PM
The point spread for over stated the day at 52 but due to heavy betting, it was raised to 54... Gee, 29-26 just beat the over...no evidence of anything but cannot imagine college officials missing so many obvious infractions...

opossum
11-01-2015, 10:57 PM
I love Duke and Coach K's mantra of No Excuses, No whining about officiating, just accept it's part of the game, next play. I think after what transpired, Duke got the best possible outcome with the ACC's slimy response, in that they admitted and everyone knows we got screwed. Just my 2 cents, but I say accept the loss, Congrats Miami, and all energy directed toward go win the next one in emphatic, undeniable fashion. GTHC. (Man it would be sweet to spoil their coastal division hopes after what they did to us last year).

I agree with this as well. Bad officiating is part of both sports. Going into the game, Duke was certainly good enough to take it out of the officials' hands in the first 59:54 of the game, but didn't or couldn't play up to their abilities. Those are the breaks.

That said, I think the ACC punishing officials for bad play calling is a good thing. Anytime a ref decides a game their decisions and the circumstances should be scrutinized to the fullest extent possible by their employer, the ACC. And if they screwed up in a way that changed the outcome, I have no problem with the ACC saying so publicly like they did in this case (I agree on the sliminess of dodging the issue of the unreviewable call -- they could have easily said that the replay official broke the rules with the same two game suspension).

But all this talk about reversing the outcome from on high (ACC or NCAA), I disagree with Coach Cut. Once these games are called by the officials as over they need to be officially over. I agree that opening the final scores of football and basketball games to post hoc rules litigation and appeals to decision-makers who weren't there and probably weren't even watching them is opening a huge can of worms.

The only way the outcome should be reversed is if the University of Miami looks at the play and decides to offer to forfeit, like Cornell did to Dartmouth in 1940. I'm not holding my breath for that.

martydoesntfoul
11-02-2015, 12:20 AM
The only way the outcome should be reversed is if the University of Miami looks at the play and decides to offer to forfeit, like Cornell did to Dartmouth in 1940. I'm not holding my breath for that.

My grandfather used to tell me about this game when I was a kid. He said Cornell's decision to hand the game to Dartmouth was his proudest moment as an alum.

Colorado/McCartney proved chivalry is dead. Miami sees this as vindication for the OSU pass interference call. It's sad but that's the way it is.

I don't know what happens from here. But if what really matters is how one responds to adversity, then Duke football has the mother of all opportunities in front of it.

I hope we play the game of the Cutcliffe era on Saturday, ensuring this crew of clowns doesn't screw us more than they already have. It couldn't come at a better time... GTHC!!!! I want this win badly, and to see the thugs/cheaters (The Hat and Chizik included) to receive the humiliation they deserve.

opossum
11-02-2015, 12:52 AM
My grandfather used to tell me about this game when I was a kid. He said Cornell's decision to hand the game to Dartmouth was his proudest moment as an alum.

Colorado/McCartney proved chivalry is dead. Miami sees this as vindication for the OSU pass interference call. It's sad but that's the way it is.

I don't know what happens from here. But if what really matters is how one responds to adversity, then Duke football has the mother of all opportunities in front of it.

I hope we play the game of the Cutcliffe era on Saturday, ensuring this crew of clowns doesn't screw us more than they already have. It couldn't come at a better time... GTHC!!!! I want this win badly, and to see the thugs/cheaters (The Hat and Chizik included) to receive the humiliation they deserve.

Glad to meet another Big Red grandchild -- my grandmother went to Cornell.

I would be proud of Duke if they forfeited under those circumstances too. But an obvious extra down being played is much more clear-cut than whether Watson was in control of the ball when his knee hit the ground. I wouldn't blame Miami for calling this weekend's fiasco a win.

I wouldn't blame Duke for calling it a win either. They scored the winning touchdown with six seconds to go in the 4th quarter, and on the kickoff return Alonzo Saxton tackled Watson at around the Duke 40 IIRC. Game over. Duke wins. It won't go down in the record books or count in the Coastal Division that way unless Miami forfeits, but that's what really happened and we all know it. I hope the team knows it too.

GTHC

HK Dukie
11-02-2015, 01:00 AM
ACC, can you accept this compromise solution??

Duke wins any tie breaker in the coastal.

You don't have to skirt NCAA rules to turn around the outcome of the game. But you can amend your own tie breaker rules for fairness. What do you say? Want to do the right thing? (which is still not enough but protects the integrity of the best league in college sports?)

Tom B.
11-02-2015, 01:06 AM
In the history of sports, I can't think of a play more botched by the refs than this one. Just in terms of quantity of screw ups and missed calls on a single play that changed the outcome. And all of the screw ups went against us somehow. WTF has never been a more appropriate acronym than right now.

The only comparable example that comes to mind is the gold medal basketball game between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. at the 1972 Munich Olympics. That's pretty much the international standard by which all officiating clusterf--ks are measured.

opossum
11-02-2015, 01:17 AM
ACC, can you accept this compromise solution??

Duke wins any tie breaker in the coastal.

You don't have to skirt NCAA rules to turn around the outcome of the game. But you can amend your own tie breaker rules for fairness. What do you say? Want to do the right thing? (which is still not enough but protects the integrity of the best league in college sports?)

I don't think we should change divisional championship rules mid-season. The Big Twelve did that last year ("one true champion" to co-champions) and look where it got them.

In the unlikely event that Miami wins the Coastal because of the tie-breaker, they would have earned it. They would have to beat all of UVA, UNC-CH, Georgia Tech and Pitt, and Duke would have to lose to one of UNC, Pitt, UVA and Wake to make the tiebreaker. I like our chances vs Miami's.

HK Dukie
11-02-2015, 10:14 AM
In the unlikely event that Miami wins the Coastal because of the tie-breaker, they would have earned it. They would have to beat all of UVA, UNC-CH, Georgia Tech and Pitt, and Duke would have to lose to one of UNC, Pitt, UVA and Wake to make the tiebreaker.

I beg to differ. Miami didn't earn this game. If they end in a tie with Duke and win a tie breaker as well that is not earning the division. Furthermore I was implying that if Duke was tied with Pitt and or UNC at 6-2 or 7-1 that Duke should win all tiebreaker scenarios given the botched game. That doesn't violate NCAA rules and brings a tiny bit of fairness back into the situation.

And yes I am still stuck in the bargaining phase...acceptance will come at kickoff at UNC.

SoCalDukeFan
11-02-2015, 10:18 AM
Why were they only suspended?

The handling of the flag on the reversed block in the back was atrocious.

The officiating the entire game was a joke.

SoCal

Mike Corey
11-02-2015, 10:35 AM
At this point, Duke's won the public over on this issue, which in the long-term is a positive silver lining here.

When's the last time Duke's had a majority of the masses on its side with anything?

I think it's time for the team and the coach and everyone officially associated with the University to hunker down and just win baby, win, and let us fans and everyone else try and follow suit.

I'm as mad/disappointed as anyone as to how this has turned out, but it's time to channel everything toward decimating UNC.

diablesseblu
11-02-2015, 10:37 AM
Why were they only suspended?

The handling of the flag on the reversed block in the back was atrocious.

The officiating the entire game was a joke.

SoCal,

Exactly. That message would convey the ACC's expectations for highly competent, engaged officiating crews in the league. However, that sentiment seeming to be lacking at Grandover. Gee whiz, it might cost money for better training, salaries, oversight.

I blame the crew, but also the staff at the league office. The quality of the league's officiating, particularly in football, has been lacking for a long time.

Tom B.
11-02-2015, 10:41 AM
I'm as mad/disappointed as anyone as to how this has turned out, but it's time to channel everything toward decimating UNC.

Not just UNC, but the following three games as well. Pitt will be a tough out, Virginia is actually looking semi-competent lately, and Wake...well, as we learned this past week (and as Florida State learned the week before), anything can happen.

DukePA
11-02-2015, 10:42 AM
At this point, Duke's won the public over on this issue, which in the long-term is a positive silver lining here.

When's the last time Duke's had a majority of the masses on its side with anything?

I think it's time for the team and the coach and everyone officially associated with the University to hunker down and just win baby, win, and let us fans and everyone else try and follow suit.

I'm as mad/disappointed as anyone as to how this has turned out, but it's time to channel everything toward decimating UNC.

Amen! Chins up and annihilate the holes!!!

aimo
11-02-2015, 10:43 AM
The only way the outcome should be reversed is if the University of Miami looks at the play and decides to offer to forfeit, like Cornell did to Dartmouth in 1940. I'm not holding my breath for that.

Nope. In fact, Miami is commemorating the "win" with a t-shirt.

http://collegespun.com/acc/duke/miami-is-now-selling-the-return-shirts-to-celebrate-saturdays-win

Udaman
11-02-2015, 11:00 AM
What drives me the most crazy are the Miami fans who say:

1) What about all the calls that the refs got wrong against Miami? All the pass interference penalties, and all the 200 yards worth.

Answer - the PI Calls were arguably close. It's a judgement call. They aren't reviewable at all, and if they were would not have been overturned. Most of Miami's penalties were dumb, cheap or late shots, and blatantly obvious. They also used the "fake injury" numerous times to slow down our quick tempo....with each time the guy coming back in one play later.

2) What about the awful TD run by Duke that wasn't a TD?

This one gets me the most. First off, there was no angle at the goal line, so no conclusive evidence. From the push of of the line, I'm firmly convinced he crossed the line. But....even if he didn't. Even if it wasn't the right call. Duke still had a Timeout. They would have called it and had 2nd and goal from the 2 inch line, with two more plays possible. They almost certainly score.

3) Stop whining and get over it.

The last play of the game was horribly botched. If the ACC had reviewed the play 8 minutes after it happened, then Duke wins. Instead, since it was 12 hours after, Duke loses. That is inherently stupid and unfair. And it costs us our ranking in the Top 25, and likely a better bowl game, and a ton of momentum heading into the UNC game.

Been 2 days and I'm still steamed.

dudog84
11-02-2015, 11:04 AM
Nope. In fact, Miami is commemorating the "win" with a t-shirt.

http://collegespun.com/acc/duke/miami-is-now-selling-the-return-shirts-to-celebrate-saturdays-win

While I would expect a fan to make a shirt like this (much like DBR makes some shirts), I find it despicable that the University would officially endorse this.

Kimist
11-02-2015, 11:05 AM
The only comparable example that comes to mind is the gold medal basketball game between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. at the 1972 Munich Olympics. That's pretty much the international standard by which all officiating clusterf--ks are measured.

FWIW: I was actually thinking about that Olympic fiasco during the Va Tech game when there was a stretch of (mostly dubious) pass interference calls against Duke.

k

jgehtland
11-02-2015, 11:08 AM
Think how much coverage there is of this outcome, and how much arguing there is about the ability to overturn the outcome (Mike and Mike were literally yelling at each other for 10 minutes over this on this morning's show).

NOW, consider this: what if this exact same situation had played out, but last week, and it was Clemson who lost because of this? The ACC's lone hope for the CFP final four?

Think the arguments would be any different about whether the ACC should retroactively overturn the result?

dukelifer
11-02-2015, 11:13 AM
Think how much coverage there is of this outcome, and how much arguing there is about the ability to overturn the outcome (Mike and Mike were literally yelling at each other for 10 minutes over this on this morning's show).

NOW, consider this: what if this exact same situation had played out, but last week, and it was Clemson who lost because of this? The ACC's lone hope for the CFP final four?

Think the arguments would be any different about whether the ACC should retroactively overturn the result?

Dan LeBatard used the name "Hollow-win" to describe the outcome of the game and its label like "The Drive" or the "Immaculate Reception" for posterity. Discuss.

TruBlu
11-02-2015, 11:18 AM
I prefer: "The Play That Will Live in Infamy"

Udaman
11-02-2015, 11:20 AM
My 12 year old son yesterday asked me

"Dad - can we make a T-Shirt up that has the final score of the game on it, with then a circle and slash through it?"

BLPOG
11-02-2015, 11:22 AM
Dan LeBatard used the name "Hollow-win" to describe the outcome of the game and its label like "The Drive" or the "Immaculate Reception" for posterity. Discuss.

I've never really liked Dan LeBatard, but I think "Hollow-Win" is the perfect moniker. It also captures how Miami fans should feel about the game, rather than trying to defend it or publicize it (I think it's even worse that the ACC continues to do that).

FerryFor50
11-02-2015, 11:34 AM
I've never really liked Dan LeBatard, but I think "Hollow-Win" is the perfect moniker. It also captures how Miami fans should feel about the game, rather than trying to defend it or publicize it (I think it's even worse that the ACC continues to do that).

Yea, I can't see feeling good after a win like that.

Heck, if Duke had been declared the winner, we'd probably not feel as great about it either, given how poorly they played most of the game. Certainly wouldn't be going and making T-shirts.

Ideally, the NCAA will overturn the result, but I can't imagine that happening.

Hopefully the team uses this game as fuel for the rest of the season and an "us vs the world" chip on the shoulder thing that athletes love to use for motivation.

I will say, I love how the team has handled it all. Mostly positive, not harping too much. Letting the formal protest do the talking.

Versus this:

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/04/wisconsins_bo_ryan_on_officiat.html

jgehtland
11-02-2015, 11:42 AM
I will say, I love how the team has handled it all. Mostly positive, not harping too much. Letting the formal protest do the talking.

Versus this:

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/04/wisconsins_bo_ryan_on_officiat.html

I really want to agree with you, but I don't see any qualitative difference between the amount of griping Cut has done and the amount of griping Bo did. Cut's been pretty vocal about it. The only difference in my eyes is that Bo is wrong. :)

FerryFor50
11-02-2015, 11:44 AM
I really want to agree with you, but I don't see any qualitative difference between the amount of griping Cut has done and the amount of griping Bo did. Cut's been pretty vocal about it. The only difference in my eyes is that Bo is wrong. :)

That's a key - Cut's not complaining about fouls (called or uncalled). He's complaining about a blatant disregard for the application of rules, lack of communication and an obvious replay faux pas.

And he's doing it fairly classy and not being nearly as whiny as Ryan came across.

oldnavy
11-02-2015, 11:44 AM
Why were they only suspended?

The handling of the flag on the reversed block in the back was atrocious.

The officiating the entire game was a joke.

SoCal

I would bet they will not be asked back next season, but yes why weren't they PUBLICALLY fired?

Potato Head
11-02-2015, 11:44 AM
The Bo Ryan thing was only disappointing because it played into that stereotype that Coach K gets all the calls. I don't think what he said was any worse than what Cutcliffe said post-game. I agree that Cut handled it how he should though, have a go at the refs but don't dwell on it and focus on the next game.

AustinDevil
11-02-2015, 11:45 AM
We can? How? What should I do?

Find out when the team is gathering to get on the buses for the drive to Chapel Hill, and go out and support them.

AustinDevil
11-02-2015, 11:50 AM
I believe if you come off the bench and tackle the ball carrier it is ruled a touchdown. This is an old rule because such plays actually happened. (One of many things forgotten in my old age.)

I wasn't alive yet, but the only time I know of that this happened is the 1953 Cotton Bowl, when Southwest Conference champion Rice had a 7-0 lead on Alabama and their star back, Dickie Moegle, was racing down the sideline in front of the Alabama bench, around midfield and with no Alabama defenders left to beat, clearly headed for a 95-yard touchdown run. But Alabama's Tommy Lewis, not in the game for the play, "couldn't handle it" and jumped off the Alabama bench and tackled Moegle. The refs, applying more a sense of fairness than a specific rule, awarded Rice the touchdown. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if something like that happened today.

http://www.ricefootball.net/tackle.htm

oldnavy
11-02-2015, 11:54 AM
I wasn't alive yet, but the only time I know of that this happened is the 1953 Cotton Bowl, when Southwest Conference champion Rice had a 7-0 lead on Alabama and their star back, Dickie Moegle, was racing down the sideline in front of the Alabama bench, around midfield and with no Alabama defenders left to beat, clearly headed for a 95-yard touchdown run. But Alabama's Tommy Lewis, not in the game for the play, "couldn't handle it" and jumped off the Alabama bench and tackled Moegle. The refs, applying more a sense of fairness than a specific rule, awarded Rice the touchdown. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if something like that happened today.

http://www.ricefootball.net/tackle.htm

Well.... if the refs were ACC officials, they would probably throw a penalty flag, confer, announce the penalty, confer..... go to replay, announce something to the crowd but change their minds and say the play was still under review, then go back to replay..... then come back and say we didn't see anything conclusive that the player wasn't already in the game, so no touchdown....

That's just my guess..

Indoor66
11-02-2015, 12:07 PM
I blame the crew, but also the staff at the league office. The quality of the league's officiating, particularly in football, has been lacking for a long time.

And who, pray tell, runs that Greensboro show that is so lacking?

No more need be said.:mad:

killerleft
11-02-2015, 12:16 PM
Nope. In fact, Miami is commemorating the "win" with a t-shirt.

http://collegespun.com/acc/duke/miami-is-now-selling-the-return-shirts-to-celebrate-saturdays-win

When your reputation is already as bad as Carolina's, what harm could printing a t-shirt that ignores reality do? They're pretty much as low as they can go. Well, they could give all the players (12) involved in the play a gaudy ring, I guess.:)

Stay classy, U.

jimsumner
11-02-2015, 12:29 PM
There's a point where the comparisons with Ryan or the PI calls or Duke gets all the calls break down.

And that's the video review process.

The officials on the field had every opportunity to end the game or throw a flag or do anything consistent with their actual job.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think they shirked that duty, hoping and expecting that something or someone else would bail them out from having to draw attention to themselves.

And their failure to do so was a serious black mark on either their competence or courage or both.

But the NCAA has in place a process designed to reverse travesties like that. Walton on the ground, with the ball in his hand is reviewable. I was in the media room prior to the arrival of any players and social media was already blowing up with photos showing that play. It's not the Zapruder film. It was clear, quick and obvious.

So, how did the video review guy not see this? For me, this is the single biggest un-answered question in this whole, sorry affair. In my very strong and considered opinion the only explanation is sheer, total incompetence.

I don't see how this guy ever works another college football game. The other folks? Sure but maybe after summer boot camp and a metaphorical flogging. But actions have consequences and these actions suggest finding other ways to spend Saturdays in the fall.

Potato Head
11-02-2015, 12:42 PM
Per ESPN's Heather Dinich:


The NCAA rule prohibits the win from being overturned in Duke's favor, but Miami can make it right by forfeiting. "I guess another team could consider forfeiting," ACC commish John Swofford told me today, "but I don't think that's going to be the case to my knowledge."

Haha, yeah no.

TNTDevil
11-02-2015, 12:45 PM
There's a point where the comparisons with Ryan or the PI calls or Duke gets all the calls break down.

And that's the video review process.

The officials on the field had every opportunity to end the game or throw a flag or do anything consistent with their actual job.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think they shirked that duty, hoping and expecting that something or someone else would bail them out from having to draw attention to themselves.

And their failure to do so was a serious black mark on either their competence or courage or both.Word. Enjoy calling Pop Warner games on future Saturdays.


But the NCAA has in place a process designed to reverse travesties like that. Walton on the ground, with the ball in his hand is reviewable. I was in the media room prior to the arrival of any players and social media was already blowing up with photos showing that play. It's not the Zapruder film. It was clear, quick and obvious.

So, how did the video review guy not see this? For me, this is the single biggest un-answered question in this whole, sorry affair. In my very strong and considered opinion the only explanation is sheer, total incompetence.

I don't see how this guy ever works another college football game. The other folks? Sure but maybe after summer boot camp and a metaphorical flogging. But actions have consequences and these actions suggest finding other ways to spend Saturdays in the fall.'Zactly.

And, how is it there's only a single official in the replay booth? I'm totally perplexed by this revelation. Shouldn't there be, at a minimum, at least one more set of eyeballs looking at video reviews? I think it's time to move the NFL/NHL video review scheme.

dudog84
11-02-2015, 01:25 PM
I apologize if this was covered earlier, I couldn't come to the board until this morning because I was so angry, and have not read the original main thread (17 pages!).

At least 2 of the referee experts on ESPN have gone out of their way to make the point that there are no longer "laterals" in the game, that these are "backward passes". So that seems an interesting decision that the NCAA deliberately changed the terminology.

So would someone please explain to me how a "pass" can hit the ground and not be the end of the play?

DukieInKansas
11-02-2015, 01:36 PM
I apologize if this was covered earlier, I couldn't come to the board until this morning because I was so angry, and have not read the original main thread (17 pages!).

At least 2 of the referee experts on ESPN have gone out of their way to make the point that there are no longer "laterals" in the game, that these are "backward passes". So that seems an interesting decision that the NCAA deliberately changed the terminology.

So would someone please explain to me how a "pass" can hit the ground and not be the end of the play?

Because it wasn't a forward pass, perhaps it is considered a fumble at that point?

freshmanjs
11-02-2015, 01:36 PM
I apologize if this was covered earlier, I couldn't come to the board until this morning because I was so angry, and have not read the original main thread (17 pages!).

At least 2 of the referee experts on ESPN have gone out of their way to make the point that there are no longer "laterals" in the game, that these are "backward passes". So that seems an interesting decision that the NCAA deliberately changed the terminology.

So would someone please explain to me how a "pass" can hit the ground and not be the end of the play?

Sure. Backward passes can hit the ground and not be the end of the play.

Tom B.
11-02-2015, 01:37 PM
In other news, the ACC just named Miami's Corn Elder ACC Specialist of the Week.

http://augustafreepress.com/acc-announces-football-players-of-the-week-2/

http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28700&ATCLID=210466892

5652

DukieInKansas
11-02-2015, 01:39 PM
In other news, the ACC just named Miami's Corn Elder ACC Specialist of the Week.

5652

You have got to be kidding me! Although it might not be fair to punish him for the refs ineptitude, this is just so wrong on so many levels.

hudlow
11-02-2015, 01:46 PM
On the other hand, how will this affect officiating for the rest of the season?

Will the whistles ever stop? Will the replay booth overheat?

hud

dudog84
11-02-2015, 01:52 PM
Sure. Backward passes can hit the ground and not be the end of the play.

Okay, went to Wikipedia (which I should have done first...and we're already listed in the entry) and you're correct. But it still seems wrong.

devildeac
11-02-2015, 02:41 PM
In other news, the ACC just named Miami's Corn Elder ACC Specialist of the Week.

http://augustafreepress.com/acc-announces-football-players-of-the-week-2/

http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28700&ATCLID=210466892

5652

Unfreakingbelievable.

SMH.

Agree with DinK.

Nice graphic, BTW.

OTOH, maybe the acc office can review that one and suspend the voters for 2 wks, upholding the award, of course:rolleyes:.

dudog84
11-02-2015, 03:00 PM
Sure. Backward passes can hit the ground and not be the end of the play.

Another thought (not that it makes any difference at this point). As suggested by DinK in the previous post to yours, is it considered a fumble? I thought fumbles couldn't be advanced by the offense in the last 2 minutes of the game. Or is that just in the pros?

tux
11-02-2015, 03:03 PM
Find out when the team is gathering to get on the buses for the drive to Chapel Hill, and go out and support them.


I second this idea, or something similar. Local fans should find a way to support the team and help them focus on the next game. An impromptu pep-rally before heading to CH is probably the best opportunity...

Olympic Fan
11-02-2015, 03:21 PM
Another thought (not that it makes any difference at this point). As suggested by DinK in the previous post to yours, is it considered a fumble? I thought fumbles couldn't be advanced by the offense in the last 2 minutes of the game. Or is that just in the pros?

A forward fumble can only be recovered by the player who fumbled -- or if a teammate recovers, the ball is spotted where the fumble occurred, not where it is recovered or advanced.

But a backward fumble is fair game for anybody to recover or advance.

And BTW -- the difference between a lateral and "a backwards pass" is sematic -- there is no difference in the rule book.

freshmanjs
11-02-2015, 03:24 PM
And BTW -- the difference between a lateral and "a backwards pass" is sematic -- there is no difference in the rule book.

Yes, which is why it was totally absurd when the former head of ACC officials appeared on ESPN college football sunday and the primary point he wanted to make was that we should be calling it "backwards pass" instead of "lateral." smh.

oldnavy
11-02-2015, 04:26 PM
There's a point where the comparisons with Ryan or the PI calls or Duke gets all the calls break down.

And that's the video review process.

The officials on the field had every opportunity to end the game or throw a flag or do anything consistent with their actual job.

As I've stated elsewhere, I think they shirked that duty, hoping and expecting that something or someone else would bail them out from having to draw attention to themselves.

And their failure to do so was a serious black mark on either their competence or courage or both.

But the NCAA has in place a process designed to reverse travesties like that. Walton on the ground, with the ball in his hand is reviewable. I was in the media room prior to the arrival of any players and social media was already blowing up with photos showing that play. It's not the Zapruder film. It was clear, quick and obvious.

So, how did the video review guy not see this? For me, this is the single biggest un-answered question in this whole, sorry affair. In my very strong and considered opinion the only explanation is sheer, total incompetence.

I don't see how this guy ever works another college football game. The other folks? Sure but maybe after summer boot camp and a metaphorical flogging. But actions have consequences and these actions suggest finding other ways to spend Saturdays in the fall.

Jim, you are by far one of the most logical and even keeled, not to mention informed posters on this board and I appreciate every post.

I would make the second question demanding an answer this; exactly who called the block in the back penalty and at what point was it determined to not be a block in the back?

The ACC is saying that this happened on the field with the refs and not from the replay official.

We all know that is a load of bull since the refs conferred for what seemed like several minutes before announcing the penalty on the field which lead to a loud cheer. I assume most were holding their breath as I was, thinking he might wave it off right then. So when he didn't, relief and cheers. Then mass confusion and stunned silence/murmur when he said the play was under review.

Obviously the reversal came from the booth or from the officials on the field during the review as they had time to watch the replay on the media board and discuss.

Has this been an topic of discussion in the official circles as far as you know?

MCFinARL
11-02-2015, 04:32 PM
Sure. Backward passes can hit the ground and not be the end of the play.

Yup, which is why changing the name from "lateral" to "backward pass" was not a great idea--it just confuses the issue because the treatment of laterals that hit the ground and passes that hit the ground (i.e. are incomplete) is completely different.

Son of Jarhead
11-02-2015, 04:42 PM
I am nearing acceptance, but a couple things still escape me...

-The replay footage that was being shown on the big score board during the 8-minute review... was that the exact same feed that the replay officials were seeing or just what the score board operator decided to show the crowd? Maybe somebody on here with knowledge of such things can answer that for me. It seemed the footage was mostly looking at the flagged block in the back portion of the play. I only saw the portion of the return where the Miami player was tackled by Saxton a couple times, but they seemed to show the block on Borders a dozen times or more, slowing it down several times. The reason I ask is because 1) if the big board was showing the exact same thing that the replay officials were seeing, then the amount of time focused on the flagged block in the back would seem to prove that they did in fact review the penalty when they are not allowed to do so and that they publicly claim that they did not do, or 2) if that footage was just what the score board operator was showing the crowd, then why the heck were they focused so much on the flagged block in the back and not on other parts of the play such as the missed block in the back early on or the player's knee being down or not? It gave the officials many looks at the flagged penalty over those 8 minutes so that they could, with the help of seeing the video on the score board (which they would never admit to looking at), "consult" with one another and decide to pick up the flag. It gave them an easy out. If the score board doesn't show it again, then only the replay official would have seen it and the rules, if rules are ever followed by these folks, would preclude them from advising the officials on the field regarding the penalty. In my opinion, if the score board replays during an official replay are the same as what the replay official is seeing, then the ACC has some more explaining to do, or if not the same footage as the replay official was seeing, then it seems we should have a rule that no replays of opponents penalties be shown on our score board as that would aid the officials and the opponents.

-I have been trying to figure out how the replay official didn't consider the player down and the thought occurred to me that he could have mistakenly applied the rules regarding fumbles. Could he have been thinking that the Miami player was fumbling the ball and not pitching it back to his teammate? Obviously, to all of us here, it is clearly a pitch, which would be treated like a QB throwing a pass as far as whether he is down before he releases the ball or not. But if the replay official mistakenly applied the rules regarding fumbles, then seeing as the ball is moving as he pitches it back, he decided incorrectly that he was not down. Either way, this is the part of the fiasco that really sticks in my craw. I can accept a field official not seeing something in live action, but the whole point of replay is that you can catch what was missed and fix it. That part broke down badly Saturday night.

I'm, sorry, I know that all sounds like the ramblings of someone who lost too much sleep to this "Fiasco on Methodist Flats" as I am calling it, but only because I have indeed lost too much sleep over this. My brain will use any excuse not to shut down for the night, but after a 2am (or was it 1am?) letter to the ACC politely expressing my displeasure, two nights mulling over this thing, and reading all the opinions and info shared here by some of the most knowledgeable fans anywhere, I am now ready to say "next play" and go beat the crap out of those heels down the street! At least, that is what I'm telling myself to do, dang it all to heck!

A side note: Several of the Miami players came across to me as arrogant brats, but I have to commend the few fans that I saw walking back to the far flung parking lots as they were obviously trying to be as inconspicuous as possible. No rowdy SOB's (near me at least) trying to rub it in. I appreciated that. Still, GTHU! (U being the U, of course... and that is for those stupid t-shirts)

I sure hope the team can put this behind them better than I can so this thing doesn't cost them more than it already has. GTHC, GTH!!!! GTHC, GTH!!!!

BigWayne
11-02-2015, 04:47 PM
If a Duke employed person is in charge of what gets shown on the video board at the stadium, it should have been set to a loop of the knee going down. I'm guessing it is in the control of the replay official and/or the TV director in the truck.

uh_no
11-02-2015, 05:41 PM
Couldn't they just solve all this junk by recording what is said by the replay official?

/story.

OldPhiKap
11-02-2015, 05:46 PM
Couldnät they just solve all this junk by recording what is said by the replay official?

/story.

Well, except that it would destroy the ability to make up a tale afterwords. I mean, if you wanted to be accurate and all, sure. But who wants actual accountability?

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-02-2015, 05:48 PM
Well, except that it would destroy the ability to make up a tale afterwords. I mean, if you wanted to be accurate and all, sure. But who wants actual accountability?

Only an attorney would bring up accountability and responsibility.

Devilwin
11-02-2015, 06:36 PM
Corn being named "Specialist of the Week" is rubbing salt in the wound. A classless act by the ACC, in my humble opinion.:mad:

royalblue
11-02-2015, 06:55 PM
Only an attorney would bring up accountability and responsibility.
I think OPK is in good company because I'm sure K and Cut talk about those 2 items from time to time.
I live my life to despise uncch and if I'm having trouble moving on to the next game I can only imagine how tough it is on the team.
Go Devils

weezie
11-02-2015, 07:15 PM
CBS Nightly News, large feature on the blown ending.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/acc-officials-suspended-after-miamis-miracle-win-over-duke/

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-02-2015, 07:18 PM
I think OPK is in good company because I'm sure K and Cut talk about those 2 items from time to time.
I live my life to despise uncch and if I'm having trouble moving on to the next game I can only imagine how tough it is on the team.
Go Devils

It's unfortunate that the Internet doesn't allow one to communicate with tone, inflection or facial expression as can happen in person. My comment wasn't serous at all. Old Phi Kap and I are very good, longtime friends who frequently exchange humorous comments.

Sometimes humor is a vehicle to move on from events which are difficult to face.

OldPhiKap
11-02-2015, 07:27 PM
CBS Nightly News, large feature on the blown ending.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/acc-officials-suspended-after-miamis-miracle-win-over-duke/

ABC had one last night. As someone said, we have won the battle in the eyes of the public. Moving on.



It's unfortunate that the Internet doesn't allow one to communicate with tone, inflection or facial expression as can happen in person. My comment wasn't serous at all. Old Phi Kap and I are very good, longtime friends who frequently exchange humorous comments.

Sometimes humor is a vehicle to move on from events which are difficult to face.

DiBD is a model of what is meant by "good people"

royalblue
11-02-2015, 07:40 PM
No worries
Yes much humor is needed
I was hoping for a reversal so Duke could have a t shirt
U-turn
Duke wins

What if this took place in a conference or national championship game would it be handled in the same manner?

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-02-2015, 08:03 PM
No worries
Yes much humor is needed
I was hoping for a reversal so Duke could have a t shirt
U-turn
Duke wins

What if this took place in a conference or national championship game would it be handled in the same manner?
The mayhem following the officials handling of the last play seems to be generating a broader conversation. A number of Division 1 coaches have talked with Coach Cutcliffe about the situation. The potential for such a mess has been a concern for some time. It's the topic of national broadcasts. Eventually the technology which was supposed to help clarify the unclear is raising new questions and new scenarios (the finish of our game being one of the most dramatic) which will have to be addressed at some point.

Meanwhile, I say take time to vote for Jeremy Cash in this week's Player of the Week competition for the Lott IMPACT Award. He's set one record as a two time winner. Let's make him a THREE TIME WINNER (See separate thread.) Next let's get back to preparing for next Saturday. There is much to be done and none of it involves a drop of paint.

My next comments are not meant to be humorous. I'm a lifelong Dukie, not just a Duke fan. If there were a reversal of the travesty which took place, I would find no joy in celebrating in any way. Celebration would only dignify and acknowledge something better left unmentioned.

Devil77
11-02-2015, 08:18 PM
PTI came down hard on the subject. Wilbon referred to "Miami's fraudulent victory".

wallyman
11-02-2015, 10:33 PM
Actually, there is a solution. Swofford should encourage Miami to forfeit the game it didn't win. Miami should do it. It would be a supreme show of sportsmanship, the ultimate case for sports as building character. And, especially given their less-than-pristine past, it would be the classiest moment in the history of University of Miami sports. For a change, big-time sports is a model for doing things the right way. Miami could gain much more than the utterly tainted win it would give up.

diablesseblu
11-02-2015, 10:47 PM
Actually, there is a solution. Swofford should encourage Miami to forfeit the game it didn't win. Miami should do it. It would be a supreme show of sportsmanship, the ultimate case for sports as building character. And, especially given their less-than-pristine past, it would be the classiest moment in the history of University of Miami sports. For a change, big-time sports is a model for doing things the right way. Miami could gain much more than the utterly tainted win it would give up.


Had this exact conversation today with family. If Shalala was still there (and on her way out), there might have been a chance. Their new president just started on 9/1. Doubt he yet wields the power for this kind of unpleasant (in his constituency) decision.

martydoesntfoul
11-02-2015, 10:47 PM
There is only one way we are going to beat UNC next weekend, and that is acceptance. We saw what happened when a great Maryland hoops team in 2001 lost in epic fashion to Duke and went on to lose something like 4 of the next 5 games to inferior opponents.
By acceptance our team needs to move quickly and immediately through the stages of grief. I believe it would be prudent for we as a fanbase to do the same. After the game, I was devastated.
Kubler-Ross Stages of Grief:
1. Shock - WTF!
2. Denial -- I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to think about it. Change the channel to the World Series.
3. Anger - His knee was down! They can't review an unreviewable penalty!
4. Bargaining -- If we all write the ACC, they should overturn the game and give Duke the win we deserve.
5. Depression -- We got screwed, it's not fair, and now we're going to lose to UNC.
6. Acceptance -- Congratulations Miami on a great win. We are Duke. We are accepting the loss. No excuses. We should not have put the game in the hands of the officials, and next weekend we won't. Next play. We're going to prepare so hard this week and play so hard nobody is going to debate who should have won next weekend while we're painting the victory bell. Maybe we'll even spill a little bit on their walls too. No whining about officiating here, we are not IC. We control our own destiny, and that destiny is winning. Keep getting better, and let's see just how good this team can be.


Would love to see your take on the various stages of rationalization Miami fan is going through. It's really something to behold.

richardjackson199
11-02-2015, 10:56 PM
Would love to see your take on the various stages of rationalization Miami fan is going through. It's really something to behold.

Again, I'll borrow a take on rationalization from someone much smarter than me. Except I'd say it applies more to Duke fans and what our team is going through. Let Miami celebrate their Hollow-win costume t-shirt. I want to beat the Heels and win the Coastal again.

"You don't become a winning team by rationalizing and making excuses. You become a winner by defeating rationalization and having no excuses." -- Mike Krzyzewski

OZ
11-02-2015, 11:41 PM
I can't help but wonder if Swofford is not thanking the ACC football gods this morning. Duke tends to react rationally to most things and we don't yet exist in the pressurized air of the football world, where thousands of local rabid reporters and fans exist. Can you imagine the pressure Swofford would be facing if this had happened to UNC, Clemson, N.C. State or FSU? Can you even fathom the fan and media pressure this would have generated had this happened in other conferences to Alabama, LSU, Ohio State, etc? I don't think we would have the same impotent executive whitewash that suspended the officials for ONLY two games.
I suspect Swofford is relieved and counting on Duke doing the "right" thing and moving on to the "next play."

Jeffack
11-03-2015, 12:03 AM
Hi everyone,

I've made a petition on the official White House website. It says exactly what you would expect - the ACC admitted they screwed up but hasn't done anything to fix the result, and the petition requests the President award Duke the victory.

If we get to 100,000 signatures some poor intern has to come up with some sort of official response!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/change-result-duke-miami-football-game

Lulu
11-03-2015, 12:05 AM
If we don't make the Coastal championship game, you have to hope this outrageous result is the sole reason why. I think the league is just hoping this won't matter as much as it could, and Duke will get blown out a couple times in upcoming games to lessen the perceived consequences of their failure handling this outcome. Can you imagine if we actually ended this season as a 2(1) loss team?

Are there any countable dollar amounts that Duke will not receive if we do not make the Coastal championship game?

Wish we could see alternate versions of the rankings where Duke won the game 27-24, and not entirely for Duke's sake. It's possible a few other teams would feel the result of this game in their rankings as well, and not be happy.

SilkyJ
11-03-2015, 12:09 AM
I find it very odd that we won the game, are 7-1, and somehow were dropped from the rankings....

martydoesntfoul
11-03-2015, 01:35 AM
Even SVP is outraged... he thinks the ACC has made a mockery of itself:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14041654

devildeac
11-03-2015, 07:06 AM
Even SVP is outraged... he thinks the ACC has made a mockery of itself:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14041654

Hmmm, when I click on that link, the following comes up:

"CONTENT UNAVAILABLE

The requested content has been removed"

Can't imagine what higher up at espn might have been responsible for that...

Indoor66
11-03-2015, 08:16 AM
Hi everyone,

I've made a petition on the official White House website. It says exactly what you would expect - the ACC admitted they screwed up but hasn't done anything to fix the result, and the petition requests the President award Duke the victory.

If we get to 100,000 signatures some poor intern has to come up with some sort of official response!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/change-result-duke-miami-football-game

I do not want Washington or the White House to weigh in on this. It is not a Federal matter. I refuse to sign such a petition.

DevilHorse
11-03-2015, 08:45 AM
[QUOTE=OldPhiKap;835562]ABC had one last night. As someone said, we have won the battle in the eyes of the public. Moving on.


Oh, was that the one that ended with the National News TV host saying gleefully IIRC, "Speaking for the Miami fans, we'll take the win!"?

Larry
DevilHorse

OldPhiKap
11-03-2015, 08:48 AM
Oh, was that the one that ended with the National News TV host saying gleefully IIRC, "Speaking for the Miami fans, we'll take the win!"?

Larry
DevilHorse

yup. I'm still okay with it though.

As several have said, I think we won the public battle on this. That's as far as it's going. Next play, beat Carolina.

Our best revenge: win out. First step on Saturday.

cspan37421
11-03-2015, 08:52 AM
Hmmm, when I click on that link, the following comes up:

"CONTENT UNAVAILABLE

The requested content has been removed"

Can't imagine what higher up at espn might have been responsible for that...

Yep, still removed. Hard to dismiss the thought that someone made a call to Bristol and spoke in a stern voice.

It can be tricky when you don't know if you're a news organization or an entertainment organization. Hard to be frank about those you cover when you're in partnership with them, and what hurts them hurts you. Seems like there ought to be a term for when you have conflicting interests :rolleyes:

jgehtland
11-03-2015, 08:55 AM
Yep, still removed. Hard to dismiss the thought that someone made a call to Bristol and spoke in a stern voice.

It can be tricky when you don't know if you're a news organization or an entertainment organization. Hard to be frank about those you cover when you're in partnership with them, and what hurts them hurts you. Seems like there ought to be a term for when you have conflicting interests :rolleyes:

I can get to that content just fine. I don't think it is a conspiracy from on high. ;)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-03-2015, 09:06 AM
I do not want Washington or the White House to weigh in on this. It is not a Federal matter. I refuse to sign such a petition.

This is the last I will comment on this matter, but seriously people. Stomping your feet and wanting the result changed makes us fans look ridiculous.

This sort of situation is precisely the intention behind K's "next play" mantra. Sure, we got hosed. Sometimes in sports you get hosed. It isn't fair.

Spending more time complaining about how unfair it is will change absolutely nothing and it makes our fan base look whiny.

Please, can we acknowledge that nothing that is going to happen will make us feel any better and move on to the UNC game?

superdave
11-03-2015, 09:28 AM
go to hell carolina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

BLPOG
11-03-2015, 09:35 AM
I do not want Washington or the White House to weigh in on this. It is not a Federal matter. I refuse to sign such a petition.

Agreed. It's an infantile idea. The outcome of college football games has no relationship to political authority and I'd be embarrassed by Blue Devils attaching themselves to that petition.

freshmanjs
11-03-2015, 09:38 AM
This is the last I will comment on this matter, but seriously people. Stomping your feet and wanting the result changed makes us fans look ridiculous.

This sort of situation is precisely the intention behind K's "next play" mantra. Sure, we got hosed. Sometimes in sports you get hosed. It isn't fair.

Spending more time complaining about how unfair it is will change absolutely nothing and it makes our fan base look whiny.

Please, can we acknowledge that nothing that is going to happen will make us feel any better and move on to the UNC game?

The intention behind the "next play" idea (which is frequently misused on this board) is for the participant in a game to avoid getting distracted in the moment by a previous play or game (good or bad). Focus on the next play. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what fans do or don't do, and it's certainly not about avoiding fans looking ridiculous.

elvis14
11-03-2015, 11:17 AM
Actually, there is a solution. Swofford should encourage Miami to forfeit the game it didn't win. Miami should do it. It would be a supreme show of sportsmanship, the ultimate case for sports as building character. And, especially given their less-than-pristine past, it would be the classiest moment in the history of University of Miami sports. For a change, big-time sports is a model for doing things the right way. Miami could gain much more than the utterly tainted win it would give up.

Where did Swofford go to school? He's too busy celebrating to 'encourage Miami to forfeit the game'. How many of those 9 minutes of failed review time were spend on the phone with Swofford?

hudlow
11-03-2015, 11:56 AM
Where did Swofford go to school? He's too busy celebrating to 'encourage Miami to forfeit the game'. How many of those 9 minutes of failed review time were spend on the phone with Swofford?


I think Swofford was the unnamed replay booth official...:cool:

sbroc012
11-03-2015, 12:08 PM
Was listening to Mike and Mike yesterday morning and one of the guests (can't remember his name, but I think he's a regular) stated that the one scenario he sees that would vindicate Duke in this situation and be really interesting to see what would become of it was if Duke were to win out and beat an undefeated Clemson in the ACC title game. He seemed to think, that possibly the Playoff Selection Committee would view the game as a win for Duke since the committee can look at teams/games objectively.
It would be very interesting to see how that would play out.
Honestly, I don't feel like griping about this unless Duke does win out and beat Clemson. At that point Duke and us fans have every right to be outraged and upset that the result could take away the possibility of being included in the playoffs.
In my eyes, a non playoff bowl game is just a bowl game and it means Duke (and the ACC) might lose out on a few extra dollars, but not much more. So if we end up in the Chic-Fil-A bowl instead of the Orange Bowl, it's not that big of a deal, neither result in a national championship, which is what the ultimate argument is about.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-03-2015, 12:16 PM
The intention behind the "next play" idea (which is frequently misused on this board) is for the participant in a game to avoid getting distracted in the moment by a previous play or game (good or bad). Focus on the next play. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what fans do or don't do, and it's certainly not about avoiding fans looking ridiculous.

Well, obviously Coach K didn't create that philosophy for the fans, but the idea of not dwelling on things in the past and focusing on the task at hand is one that you can certainly extrapolate to the fans. And, as far as it being "in game" - well, sure you can limit it that way if you want to, but the lesson stands. Becoming fixated upon your successes or failures in the past limits your ability to be fully present for the task at hand.

Yes, it's for players not fans. Yes, it's for basketball not football. I still think it's a great motto.

Tom B.
11-03-2015, 02:00 PM
Hmmm, when I click on that link, the following comes up:

"CONTENT UNAVAILABLE

The requested content has been removed"

Can't imagine what higher up at espn might have been responsible for that...

Try this link:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14041842

English
11-03-2015, 02:54 PM
Stuff...

Spending more time complaining about how unfair it is will change absolutely nothing and it makes our fan base look whiny.

Please, can we acknowledge that nothing that is going to happen will make us feel any better and move on to the UNC game?

As a sports fan, you can certainly do whatever you want in reaction to this abysmal officiating, as is your prerogative. What I don't think is reasonable is that you're criticizing the rest of the fanbase for having an ongoing, and still IMO appropriately measured response to something that even the national media has found to be noteworthy and absurd. If some highly committed fans want to spend a few days stewing about what essentially amounts to the refs robbing the Duke football team of an earned victory, what harm does that do? We're not taking to the Duke locker room to do it. We're not distracting the players or coaching staff. You think it makes the Duke football fanbase appear whiny? To whom? To the national media who has gone on public record as saying the exact same thing? To the national public, who has overtly taken Duke's side in this mess? Fanbases tend to be passionate about their respective teams, and when something like this happens, those fanbases, en mass, usually react vocally. It's the nature of sports. Calm down.

It's not going to change anything? No kidding. Neither is virtually anything that a fanbase does in support of its team. Relax, let some people vent on a harmless internet message board thread, and in time, everyone will refocus. If you find it so irritatingly whiny, perhaps avoid this thread.

75Crazie
11-03-2015, 06:19 PM
Wilbon just made a great statement, after viewing the replay of D.J. Augustin's five-step no dribble non-call in the NBA last night. He said that the tape should be played over and over for NBA officials and to tell them "We can't have this ... we're not the ACC".

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-03-2015, 06:26 PM
As a sports fan, you can certainly do whatever you want in reaction to this abysmal officiating, as is your prerogative. What I don't think is reasonable is that you're criticizing the rest of the fanbase for having an ongoing, and still IMO appropriately measured response to something that even the national media has found to be noteworthy and absurd. If some highly committed fans want to spend a few days stewing about what essentially amounts to the refs robbing the Duke football team of an earned victory, what harm does that do? We're not taking to the Duke locker room to do it. We're not distracting the players or coaching staff. You think it makes the Duke football fanbase appear whiny? To whom? To the national media who has gone on public record as saying the exact same thing? To the national public, who has overtly taken Duke's side in this mess? Fanbases tend to be passionate about their respective teams, and when something like this happens, those fanbases, en mass, usually react vocally. It's the nature of sports. Calm down.

It's not going to change anything? No kidding. Neither is virtually anything that a fanbase does in support of its team. Relax, let some people vent on a harmless internet message board thread, and in time, everyone will refocus. If you find it so irritatingly whiny, perhaps avoid this thread.

Go ahead, whine all you like, it is a free country. We definitely got jobbed.

My issue is with people demanding the outcome be overturned. That doesn't happen in sports. It is one of the lessons I learned playing sports (my dad was my coach, perhaps I am too attached to his teachings). Sometimes, you get hosed. It totally sucks, and you can be upset about it, but the outcome doesn't change.

Sportsmanship is about winning or losing gracefully, no matter the conditions.

Sixthman
11-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Sportsmanship is about winning or losing gracefully, no matter the conditions.

Indeed this is true. Among the conditions that do not matter are the sportsmanship or lack thereof of anyone else.

However, one if the most important roles of the league -- the ACC in this case -- is to cultivate and nature sportsmanship. Enforcing fairness as fully as possible is an essential tool in meeting thus duty.

Stray Gator
11-03-2015, 07:11 PM
Go ahead, whine all you like, it is a free country. We definitely got jobbed.

My issue is with people demanding the outcome be overturned. That doesn't happen in sports. It is one of the lessons I learned playing sports (my dad was my coach, perhaps I am too attached to his teachings). Sometimes, you get hosed. It totally sucks, and you can be upset about it, but the outcome doesn't change.

Sportsmanship is about winning or losing gracefully, no matter the conditions.

I was in the camp initially favoring reversal of the result, but I believe that at this point an edict changing the outcome would do more harm than good, entirely aside from creating a dangerous precedent. As others have noted, I can't recall any event that has generated more positive feelings and sympathy towards Duke among media commentators and other fans -- at least those who aren't foaming-at-the-mouth haters. If some ruling were to be issued now declaring that the result is being reversed, that goodwill would quickly dissolve in a cacophony of protests about the rules being changed to favor Duke with a benefit that would not be conferred on any other school.

But that doesn't mean we need to accept the ACC's response as satisfactory. That the ACC could acknowledge the error in declaring Miami the winner despite admitted violations of the rules is bad enough, but perhaps tolerable in deference to the need for finality. But to follow up by giving the Miami player who scored the "dead ball touchdown" a "Player of the Week" award is outrageous -- I don't see how any reasonable person can view that action as anything other than a deliberate act by the ACC office to celebrate the injustice to Duke by rubbing our faces in it. If John Swofford and the other ACC officials were people of integrity who truly wanted to promote sportsmanship, the league office would publicly encourage Miami to offer a forfeit. Of course, Miami would refuse. But at least that would put the onus on the Canes, and would convey to the public that the conference as a whole is sincere about wanting its members to do the right thing.
.

jimsumner
11-03-2015, 07:20 PM
I was in the camp initially favoring reversal of the result, but I believe that at this point an edict changing the outcome would do more harm than good, entirely aside from creating a dangerous precedent. As others have noted, I can't recall any event that has generated more positive feelings and sympathy towards Duke among media commentators and other fans -- at least those who aren't foaming-at-the-mouth haters. If some ruling were to be issued now declaring that the result is being reversed, that goodwill would quickly dissolve in a cacophony of protests about the rules being changed to favor Duke with a benefit that would not be conferred on any other school.

But that doesn't mean we need to accept the ACC's response as satisfactory. That the ACC could acknowledge the error in declaring Miami the winner despite admitted violations of the rules is bad enough, but perhaps tolerable in deference to the need for finality. But to follow up by giving the Miami player who scored the "dead ball touchdown" a "Player of the Week" award is outrageous -- I don't see how any reasonable person can view that action as anything other than a deliberate act by the ACC office to celebrate the injustice to Duke by rubbing our faces in it. If John Swofford and the other ACC officials were people of integrity who truly wanted to promote sportsmanship, the league office would publicly encourage Miami to offer a forfeit. Of course, Miami would refuse. But at least that would put the onus on the Canes, and would convey to the public that the conference as a whole is sincere about wanting its members to do the right thing.
.

A few words on the weekly awards. The SIDs nominate players for these awards--in all-sports--and a select group of selected media vote on them.

The ACC doesn't have a vote.

But that still begs several questions. Could and/or did someone from the ACC suggest to Miami that this nomination was more than a bit over the board? Could they or did they ask the media members who cast that vote to reconsider?

And more to the point, how qualified is a particular media member who would cast such a vote? It seems to me that anyone who would do so lacks either adequate knowledge of the circumstances or has very poor judgment. Or both. They aren't mutually exclusive.

wsb3
11-03-2015, 07:57 PM
Forgive me if this has been shared..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/miami-hurricanes/os-um-hurricanes-forfeit-david-whitley-1103-20151102-column.html

devildeac
11-03-2015, 08:06 PM
Forgive me if this has been shared..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/miami-hurricanes/os-um-hurricanes-forfeit-david-whitley-1103-20151102-column.html

Nice find. Thanks for sharing. From Florida, too. My favorite part:rolleyes: :

"They say the refs also jobbed Miami by calling a league-record 23 penalties, at least 22 of which were evidence Mike Krzyzewski also runs the ACC's football operation."

OZ
11-03-2015, 08:28 PM
"They say the refs also jobbed Miami by calling a league-record 23 penalties, at least 22 of which were evidence Mike Krzyzewski also runs the ACC's football operation."

At least 20 of those penalties came from faked injuries giving their defense time to substitute players.

OldPhiKap
11-03-2015, 08:29 PM
At least 20 of those penalties came from faked injuries giving their defense time to substitute players.

Thank you, someone had to say this.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-03-2015, 08:40 PM
Thank you, someone had to say this.

A Duke trained psychologist sits behind me in our stadium. Before the end of the first half, she pointed out that every time Duke had the ball, a different Miami player was on the ground at the end of a down, effectively stopping play while the medical concierge would come out, examine and then escort the player off the field. Almost all walked off easily on their own. It was like Bones McKinney had come back to whisper in their ears, telling them to lie there for a little while. I don't know of a rule that speaks to pretending to be injured in order to stop play whenever the other team has the ball, but it is a type of manipulation of the rules to gain an advantage. Teams who are self confident don't need to resort to such tactics to win.

duke79
11-03-2015, 08:54 PM
A Duke trained psychologist sits behind me in our stadium. Before the end of the first half, she pointed out that every time Duke had the ball, a different Miami player was on the ground at the end of a down, effectively stopping play while the medical concierge would come out, examine and then escort the player off the field. Almost all walked off easily on their own. It was like Bones McKinney had come back to whisper in their ears, telling them to lie there for a little while. I don't know of a rule that speaks to pretending to be injured in order to stop play whenever the other team has the ball, but it is a type of manipulation of the rules to gain an advantage. Teams who are self confident don't need to resort to such tactics to win.

They're a dirty football team. In my mind, that was the worst part of losing to them.

jimsumner
11-03-2015, 09:20 PM
A Duke trained psychologist sits behind me in our stadium. Before the end of the first half, she pointed out that every time Duke had the ball, a different Miami player was on the ground at the end of a down, effectively stopping play while the medical concierge would come out, examine and then escort the player off the field. Almost all walked off easily on their own. It was like Bones McKinney had come back to whisper in their ears, telling them to lie there for a little while. I don't know of a rule that speaks to pretending to be injured in order to stop play whenever the other team has the ball, but it is a type of manipulation of the rules to gain an advantage. Teams who are self confident don't need to resort to such tactics to win.

Technically, I think it would be delay of game. But it's like flopping in soccer. Pretty tough to prove.

martydoesntfoul
11-03-2015, 11:21 PM
Forgive me if this has been shared..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/miami-hurricanes/os-um-hurricanes-forfeit-david-whitley-1103-20151102-column.html

Thank you for posting this, which prompted me to send an email (see below) to the author.

For those that would like to see this thread prematurely terminated, I say I don't agree. The ability to read and post comments has been extremely cathartic, and through this process I believe I've made my peace with what went down on Saturday. I can honestly say I'm glad the roles weren't reversed, because there is no way I could ever feel good about that kind of win. Said differently, Miami can have the damn thing, and I'm glad we won't ever get it.

One last thing: If we're able to rise up and win on Saturday, I will consider it one of the great victories in the history of Duke athletics... I just cannot wait to see what we're made of!!

------

David-

I just finished reading your article on the Duke-Miami game. Of the combined 100 or so videos I've watched and articles I've read over the past few days, I can say without hesitation you've written the definitive piece. For what it's worth, congratulations.

You're so spot on it's not even funny, and the comments only serve to reinforce the exact point you were trying to make. Oh, the irony.

And maybe it's just me, but the whole U persecution complex seems ridiculous, and all part of the process (along with bringing up past slights, poor calls throughout the game*, etc.) that fans are using to justify a victory they know deep down isn't legitimate. Here's the news flash: No one outside the Hurricane bubble cares that it was Miami -- the reaction would be the same for any school involved in this travesty.

You've made me feel better about the loss, which I prefer to the hollow victory Miami has chosen to own. And if our guys go out on Saturday and give the efforts of their lives, win or lose they will learn more about succeeding in life than they ever thought possible, and the loss will turn out to be one of their greatest gifts.

In closing, I wanted you to know my grandfather was a Cornell grad who finished his schooling well before the infamous 1940 Dartmouth forfeit. He called that decision his proudest moment as an alum, and now I truly understand what he meant.


*Interestingly, I've yet to see anyone bring up the bogus fumble Duke lost, or provide proof Sirk didn't cross the goal line, or examine each penalty on its own merit...

kfan
11-03-2015, 11:52 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but seems relevant here as well:



This part is patently ridiculous. I don't buy for a second that this is what happened. They announced the penalty. I have never seen a penalty announced prior to the officials conferring. At any level of football, I have never seen that. I'm told that the flag stayed on the field for the entire 9 minute review only to finally be picked up at the very end. This is the error in the review process that ought lead to a longer suspension, and the ACC is lying about it.

I share your skepticism based on what ref announced and when. If you are right, this lie is far more egregious than unreasonably concluding player's knee didn't hit ground while touching ball. However, I just heard an official on David Glenn Show and David Glenn himself say definitively that replay (and I assume this includes jumbotron) had nothing to do with picking up the flag. Is there any evidence to support this view? I will be able to let this go if I could just believe the refs are telling the truth about the picked-up flag.

Scorp4me
11-04-2015, 12:25 AM
I share your skepticism based on what ref announced and when. If you are right, this lie is far more egregious than unreasonably concluding player's knee didn't hit ground while touching ball. However, I just heard an official on David Glenn Show and David Glenn himself say definitively that replay (and I assume this includes jumbotron) had nothing to do with picking up the flag. Is there any evidence to support this view? I will be able to let this go if I could just believe the refs are telling the truth about the picked-up flag.

Not calling the knee down correctly was pretty sad, but let's face it bad calls happen in games all the time. Unfortunately it is not the point people should be focused on, it's the one you mention. A flag was thrown (in this case for a questionable block in the back call and while there were clearly others that's irrelevant). The penalty was explained. The flag remained. And it was only after the second review that the penalty and the marker was removed. That is the problem. It's wrong. It's against the rules. And then the ACC lied about it (although it was really the only thing they could do and exactly what we all knew they would do).

The poor call on the fumble. The knee down. The missed block in the back. Heck, not reviewing Sirk's touchdown. The inability of the refs to blow a whistle. All poor actions that point to unqualified refs and replay officials, but not against the rules. Changing a call from the booth...wrong and illegal. THAT is what should be focused on when discussing the final play. All the other stuff is just gravy :-)

Son of Jarhead
11-04-2015, 01:16 AM
If a Duke employed person is in charge of what gets shown on the video board at the stadium, it should have been set to a loop of the knee going down. I'm guessing it is in the control of the replay official and/or the TV director in the truck.

Exactly, that is what I am saying. IMO, I think the scoreboard was showing exactly what the replay official was looking at and their repeated viewing of the flagged BITB (and lack of focus on the knee-down-or-not) stands as proof that the officials and the league are lying when they say they did not use the replay footage to review the penalty, against their own rules. This is the one thing that still bothers me about all this. I can live with human error at the speeds of live action, but not this crap. I would like the officials and league to be honest about it.

I really think we would be well served if we didn't show the replay footage during a review (at least in reviews where over-turning a call would hurt Duke ;)) I mean, it's human nature for the refs to watch the big video board during that delay while a play is under review, just like everyone else in the stadium, only, they are not supposed to, by rule.

I am glad national media types keep pointing out that we got shafted. We won in the court of public opinion. That can't hurt is in the long run. I just hope the loss doesn't hurt us in the short term, either by costing us a shot at the ACC Title or by messing up the team's mojo in the upcoming games. often

Oh, and I like the DBR front page bit to Miami fans about karma not being picky. Good one, guys. I'll be repeating it often. Starting here:

"That's fine. We'll just sit here and wait for the next Nevin Shapiro to show up. Or Al Golden. Karma's not picky." :cool: I love it!

GTHC!!

AustinDevil
11-04-2015, 11:00 AM
This is the last I will comment on this matter, but seriously people. Stomping your feet and wanting the result changed makes us fans look ridiculous.

This sort of situation is precisely the intention behind K's "next play" mantra. Sure, we got hosed. Sometimes in sports you get hosed. It isn't fair.

Spending more time complaining about how unfair it is will change absolutely nothing and it makes our fan base look whiny.

Please, can we acknowledge that nothing that is going to happen will make us feel any better and move on to the UNC game?

I agree as far as fantasies of game-outcome-reversal. But, winning in that dump of a pro stadium 30 miles from UM next fall will make me feel better. Can we please, pretty please, finally send the dang band to all away conference games next year?

AustinDevil
11-04-2015, 11:02 AM
A few words on the weekly awards. The SIDs nominate players for these awards--in all-sports--and a select group of selected media vote on them.

The ACC doesn't have a vote.

But that still begs several questions. Could and/or did someone from the ACC suggest to Miami that this nomination was more than a bit over the board? Could they or did they ask the media members who cast that vote to reconsider?

And more to the point, how qualified is a particular media member who would cast such a vote? It seems to me that anyone who would do so lacks either adequate knowledge of the circumstances or has very poor judgment. Or both. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Let's also not let the ACC off the hook for burying the statement that the game "result" is fraudulent deep within their site, while the entire front page on Sunday was multiple articles about Miami's awesome "miracle."

jimsumner
11-04-2015, 11:05 AM
I'm also a bit skeptical of the picking-up-the-flag scenario.

Here's why. The term "picking up the flag" has a literal and figurative meaning. We've all seen an official walk up to a penalty flag, pick it up and wave it over his head, thus signaling that the original call was in error.

That didn't happen Saturday. The offending flag was still lying on the ground 10 minutes after it was thrown.

Now, perhaps they meant to pick it up but forgot and this was just another in a series of procedural errors that aggravated the numerous errors in judgment.

But doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-04-2015, 11:18 AM
I agree as far as fantasies of game-outcome-reversal. But, winning in that dump of a pro stadium 30 miles from UM next fall will make me feel better. Can we please, pretty please, finally send the dang band to all away conference games next year?

Will you be attending the Pitt game? If so, please make a stop at my tailgate tent, Tent #1 in the Card Gym Lot, and make a contribution to our annual fundraiser for the band. This fundraiser supplements the university budget which doesn't include enough funds to pay for the band to travel to every away game along with a variety of other gaps in funding. I can't say whether these donations will get the band to Miami, but it's a step toward making that and other elements of excellence a reality. This is a process, this building of the band program.

This invitation is extended to anyone who's a member of this site. On Senior Day (Nov. 14), our fundraiser will conclude when the band marches out to our tents immediately following the Devil Walk and forms up in front of K'ville. This year's fundraiser will be given in memory of Malachi Briggs, Shaquille Powell's 7 yo brother who died in June following a bout with Wilms tumor. There will be a ceremony to hand over the contributions followed by a short concert. The bigger the crowd when the band comes back out to the Card Gym Lot, the more we show visible support for a deserving group students.

Tom B.
11-04-2015, 11:20 AM
Forgive me if this has been shared..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/miami-hurricanes/os-um-hurricanes-forfeit-david-whitley-1103-20151102-column.html

Another Florida columnist joins the chorus for reversal:

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/miamis-eight-lateral-victory-over-duke-should-be-reversed/2252460

I never thought I'd see the day when so much of the sports media was on Duke's side over anything. The fact that this event has unified virtually the entire sports media in Duke's corner (with just a few Miami homer exceptions) tells me it is a very...big...deal.

sagegrouse
11-04-2015, 11:30 AM
Another Florida columnist joins the chorus for reversal:

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/miamis-eight-lateral-victory-over-duke-should-be-reversed/2252460

I never thought I'd see the day when so much of the sports media was on Duke's side over anything. The fact that this event has unified virtually the entire sports media in Duke's corner (with just a few Miami homer exceptions) tells me it is a very...big...deal.

You'd have to go back to the win over UNLV in 1991.

dudog84
11-04-2015, 12:16 PM
Another Florida columnist joins the chorus for reversal:

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/miamis-eight-lateral-victory-over-duke-should-be-reversed/2252460

I never thought I'd see the day when so much of the sports media was on Duke's side over anything. The fact that this event has unified virtually the entire sports media in Duke's corner (with just a few Miami homer exceptions) tells me it is a very...big...deal.

Now this column made me think of something new. Is the real reason they can't overturn the outcome because of all the gambling money that has already been paid out? We all know gambling is a huge part of football, I believe much more than any other sport.

AustinDevil
11-04-2015, 12:47 PM
Will you be attending the Pitt game? If so, please make a stop at my tailgate tent, Tent #1 in the Card Gym Lot, and make a contribution to our annual fundraiser for the band. This fundraiser supplements the university budget which doesn't include enough funds to pay for the band to travel to every away game along with a variety of other gaps in funding. I can't say whether these donations will get the band to Miami, but it's a step toward making that and other elements of excellence a reality. This is a process, this building of the band program.

This invitation is extended to anyone who's a member of this site. On Senior Day (Nov. 14), our fundraiser will conclude when the band marches out to our tents immediately following the Devil Walk and forms up in front of K'ville. This year's fundraiser will be given in memory of Malachi Briggs, Shaquille Powell's 7 yo brother who died in June following a bout with Wilms tumor. There will be a ceremony to hand over the contributions followed by a short concert. The bigger the crowd when the band comes back out to the Card Gym Lot, the more we show visible support for a deserving group students.

Thanks for the invite and I will make it to Tent #1 some day, but not this regular season; I'm hoping to make any and all games that Duke may play after the regular season, and then to see the fully redone Wallace Wade next fall. :-)


Another Florida columnist joins the chorus for reversal:

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/miamis-eight-lateral-victory-over-duke-should-be-reversed/2252460

I never thought I'd see the day when so much of the sports media was on Duke's side over anything. The fact that this event has unified virtually the entire sports media in Duke's corner (with just a few Miami homer exceptions) tells me it is a very...big...deal.

I love reading these columns, and agree with you on the unified worldwide media reaction. My only quibble is that there's no value in some of the voices being from within Florida (but not Dade County); columnists in Orlando and Tampa might as well be in Gainesville and Tallahassee as far as their views on UM. It's only the Herald, and maybe the Broward/Palm Beach papers, that ever look at UM as a hometown team.

wandalee
11-04-2015, 12:57 PM
My hubby has a creative idea for further punishment - make the replay official walk through Wally Wade at the next game and have the crowd chant "shame, shame, shame" at him. That make us all feel a little better!

OldPhiKap
11-04-2015, 01:03 PM
Now this column made me think of something new. Is the real reason they can't overturn the outcome because of all the gambling money that has already been paid out? We all know gambling is a huge part of football, I believe much more than any other sport.

I have thought this too. About a year ago, the WSJ had a great article about losses when a late field goal or somesuch was disallowed after the game ended -- did not alter who won, but changed the points spread.

Not that the NCAA or ACC is interested in money though, they are purely academically-minded institutions.

TKG
11-04-2015, 01:12 PM
the ACC are purely academically-minded institutions.

There are exceptions......... (liberally edited).

Supergroove
11-04-2015, 01:17 PM
Sorry if this has been posted before, but in all the talk about why the outcome of the Miami game "can't" be reversed (even though many columnists have been saying it "should" be), I haven't heard anyone mention the famous Pine Tar Game as a possible precedent. This article has a good summary of the incident and the aftermath. History (and the Fordham Law Review) seem to have concluded that AL President Lee Macphail did the right thing overturning a call the umpire made that, even though technically following the letter of the rule, violated the spirit of the rule.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9498442/george-brett-pine-tar-game-common-sense-won-out


The Duke/Miami game would be an easier correction. While it was also an error made the the officials (here the replay official), in this case, it was not even correct within the letter of the rule. Also (unlike the Pine Tar Game), it was the last play of the game and would not require the teams to come back and finish the game. Finally, the Royals/Yankees result did not affect the standings in any meaningful way, but the Duke loss Saturday could have a very real impact on who plays in the ACC Championship game.



I know the ACC/NCAA won't overturn it. But they should.

devildeac
11-04-2015, 01:42 PM
I'm also a bit skeptical of the picking-up-the-flag scenario.

Here's why. The term "picking up the flag" has a literal and figurative meaning. We've all seen an official walk up to a penalty flag, pick it up and wave it over his head, thus signaling that the original call was in error.

That didn't happen Saturday. The offending flag was still lying on the ground 10 minutes after it was thrown.

Now, perhaps they meant to pick it up but forgot and this was just another in a series of procedural errors that aggravated the numerous errors in judgment.

But doesn't pass the smell test for me.

I'd be more than skeptical as it "appears" to be an outright lie by the officials and the acc office. Here's the screen shot which is in post 296 in the post game thread. It clearly shows the referee signaling the penalty and the audio announcing the 10 yard penalty and an untimed play has been confirmed by several sources.


http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5650&d=1446435508&thumb=1

4Gen
11-04-2015, 01:54 PM
My take. Now, every sports minded kid in America knows three things:

1. Duke University has a football team.
2. Duke plays big boy football. In fact, it just defeated Miami.
3. Duke has the classiest football coach in the country.

I'm just not feeling a big downside.

nyesq83
11-04-2015, 02:24 PM
This monstrous horror show shall forever be known to me as The Great Cane Robbery.

devildeac
11-04-2015, 02:25 PM
This monstrous horror show shall forever be known to me as The Great Cane Robbery.

I've got several better names but I'd like to retain my posting privileges here:mad: .:o

rasputin
11-04-2015, 02:27 PM
Sorry if this has been posted before, but in all the talk about why the outcome of the Miami game "can't" be reversed (even though many columnists have been saying it "should" be), I haven't heard anyone mention the famous Pine Tar Game as a possible precedent. This article has a good summary of the incident and the aftermath. History (and the Fordham Law Review) seem to have concluded that AL President Lee Macphail did the right thing overturning a call the umpire made that, even though technically following the letter of the rule, violated the spirit of the rule.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9498442/george-brett-pine-tar-game-common-sense-won-out


The Duke/Miami game would be an easier correction. While it was also an error made the the officials (here the replay official), in this case, it was not even correct within the letter of the rule. Also (unlike the Pine Tar Game), it was the last play of the game and would not require the teams to come back and finish the game. Finally, the Royals/Yankees result did not affect the standings in any meaningful way, but the Duke loss Saturday could have a very real impact on who plays in the ACC Championship game.



I know the ACC/NCAA won't overturn it. But they should.

The difference with the Pine Tar game is that baseball has a mechanism for playing a game under protest. And it's not used for situations in which an incorrect call was made, but rather, for the unusual situation where the umpires misapplied the rules. If a protest is sustained, the game situation reverts to the situation that was in place had the rule been applied correctly. In this case, Brett's having initially been called out meant the game was over because it was the third out of the top of the ninth. The AL decided that the rule was misapplied, therefore the home run did count, and the game wasn't over. It was not the same thing as changing the result, because the rest of the game still had to be played.

jimsumner
11-04-2015, 02:39 PM
Our soccer friends have a word to describe an outcome in circumstances like this, say when an obvious handball goes uncalled and leads to a game-winning goal in a World Cup final.

The word is "unjust."

Seems appropriate.

OldPhiKap
11-04-2015, 02:53 PM
The best revenge is to win out so those spineless conference weasels cannot take away our top bowl opportunity.

The public knows who won that game.

9F. Next play.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-04-2015, 03:01 PM
The best revenge is to win out so those spineless conference weasels cannot take away our top bowl opportunity.

The public knows who won that game.

9F. Next play.

I look at what happened over the weekend as somewhat like a test case in the law. Some important issues (updating rules to fit today's use of technology) have been highlighted in the public's forums and must at some point be dealt with. Sometimes those in the first test case don't benefit to the extent that those who come afterwards do, but the greater good is served nonetheless.

rasputin
11-04-2015, 03:15 PM
The best revenge is to win out so those spineless conference weasels cannot take away our top bowl opportunity.

The public knows who won that game.

9F. Next play.

I agree with the 9F and next play sentiments. But the fact that the public knows who won, doesn't change the standings. Colorado won a bogus national championship (the mythical, voted-on kind; actually split/shared with Georgia Tech), after the referees botched the infamous fifth down game against Missouri. If they had been saddled with the deserved loss, there is no way that the team would have been even in the discussion. As it was, their season record was 11-1-1 (should have been 10-2-1).

Troublemaker
11-04-2015, 04:12 PM
Now this column made me think of something new. Is the real reason they can't overturn the outcome because of all the gambling money that has already been paid out? We all know gambling is a huge part of football, I believe much more than any other sport.

Most sportsbooks have House Rules that declare that they don't recognize scoring amendments or reversals after the fact.

Example (https://www.sportsbook.ag/info/houseRules#_APPENDIX):


Sportsbook.ag does not recognize suspended games, protests, scoring amendments, result reversals and overturned decisions for wagering purposes.

So they're covered. Anyone who bet Miami to win will get to keep their money, and anybody who bet Duke to win has no recourse even if the result gets overturned.

dudog84
11-04-2015, 04:35 PM
Most sportsbooks have House Rules that declare that they don't recognize scoring amendments or reversals after the fact.

Example (https://www.sportsbook.ag/info/houseRules#_APPENDIX):



So they're covered. Anyone who bet Miami to win will get to keep their money, and anybody who bet Duke to win has no recourse even if the result gets overturned.

Thanks for that, makes sense. I'm not much of a gambler. I learned a long time ago that I hate losing much more than I like winning.

I'm coming around to the thought that we are getting more out of letting this stand with some dignity than continuing to be upset. Certainly long term. It might affect our bowl this year, but anyone that thinks that if we had won, and won out, and beat Clemson, that we'd be in the playoff is kidding themselves. We're not there yet. College football, unlike college basketball (and really any other major sport (forgive me gymnastics and diving)), is subjective and it will take several more 10-win seasons, some bowl wins, and some big out-of-conference wins before we get there.

But 10 years ago, who would have thought we could even dream it?

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-04-2015, 04:47 PM
Thanks for that, makes sense. I'm not much of a gambler. I learned a long time ago that I hate losing much more than I like winning.

I'm coming around to the thought that we are getting more out of letting this stand with some dignity than continuing to be upset. Certainly long term. It might affect our bowl this year, but anyone that thinks that if we had won, and won out, and beat Clemson, that we'd be in the playoff is kidding themselves. We're not there yet. College football, unlike college basketball (and really any other major sport (forgive me gymnastics and diving)), is subjective and it will take several more 10-win seasons, some bowl wins, and some big out-of-conference wins before we get there.

But 10 years ago, who would have thought we could even dream it?
Even five years ago who would have thought that a Duke football game could be the lightening rod to trigger a national conversation about needed changes in NCAA rules to catch up with technology or for any other reason?

dudog84
11-04-2015, 05:21 PM
Even five years ago who would have thought that a Duke football game could be the lightening rod to trigger a national conversation about needed changes in NCAA rules to catch up with technology or for any other reason?

I thought about saying 5, but re-considered because I think we could see that Cutcliffe was different. But you're probably right.

Yeah, let's forget this and start talking again about how great it is to have David Cutcliffe representing our school.

gep
11-04-2015, 06:10 PM
My take. Now, every sports minded kid in America knows three things:

1. Duke University has a football team.
2. Duke plays big boy football. In fact, it just defeated Miami.
3. Duke has the classiest football coach in the country.

I'm just not feeling a big downside.

GREAT 3 points. Duke not only has a very high profile MBB team, but a very up-and-coming football team... that successfully plays with the big boys. And, along with the most successful MBB coach, Duke also has a very good high-class football coach. Add all that to a Duke University degree with the highest football team graduation rate in the ACC, and top-4 in the nation.

blazindw
11-04-2015, 08:54 PM
Point of clarification on the Sirk TD...it was reviewed. After that review, the referee declared that the play stood as called on the field and it was a TD. Not sure where it's coming from that it wasn't reviewed (I was at the game and didn't have the benefit of seeing what was shown on TV).

sagegrouse
11-04-2015, 09:25 PM
Point of clarification on the Sirk TD...it was reviewed. After that review, the referee declared that the play stood as called on the field and it was a TD. Not sure where it's coming from that it was reviewed (I was at the game and didn't have the benefit of seeing what was shown on TV).

You couldn't see a thing on instant replay, except that at one point Sirk's feet were within inches of the goal line. The ref (line judge/) was in perfect position.

Jarhead
11-04-2015, 10:27 PM
Point of clarification on the Sirk TD...it was reviewed. After that review, the referee declared that the play stood as called on the field and it was a TD. Not sure where it's coming from that it was reviewed (I was at the game and didn't have the benefit of seeing what was shown on TV).

My belief is that all touch downs are reviewed.

devildeac
11-04-2015, 10:53 PM
Point of clarification on the Sirk TD...it was reviewed. After that review, the referee declared that the play stood as called on the field and it was a TD. Not sure where it's coming from that it was reviewed (I was at the game and didn't have the benefit of seeing what was shown on TV).

Hey, you could be a replay official:rolleyes::mad:.

blazindw
11-04-2015, 11:06 PM
My belief is that all touch downs are reviewed.

That's only in the NFL. All college TDs are not automatically reviewed, but this one definitely was. Announced that it was and then about a minute later confirmed as a TD.

IsInTheDetails
11-05-2015, 12:44 AM
Add Jeff Van Gundy to the list of notable sports personalities speaking out in support of Duke. During the third quarter of tonight's Warriors/Clippers game, he expressed his sympathy for the Duke players and program, noting that Duke "should have won" as a result of the replay.

Allow me to echo the comments of several others and say that all this national press in support of Duke Football is a very good thing. I mean, I would prefer that we'd simply won the game as deserved, but this isn't a bad consolation prize. One of my biggest concerns following the game - and even after the ACC announced the suspensions - was that the truth would never get proper airtime. We may still see that replay more than we'd prefer going forward, but it'll be accompanied by a broadly-accepted asterisk.

toooskies
11-05-2015, 01:29 AM
Can they just throw out the result of the game, given the incompetent officiating? Reversing the result I understand isn't NCAA legal, but if a win can be vacated due to ineligible players, surely they could adjust the validity of this outcome.

royalblue
11-05-2015, 06:59 AM
Can they just throw out the result of the game, given the incompetent officiating? Reversing the result I understand isn't NCAA legal, but if a win can be vacated due to ineligible players, surely they could adjust the validity of this outcome.

I think that's a great suggestion

oldnavy
11-05-2015, 08:50 AM
I'd be more than skeptical as it "appears" to be an outright lie by the officials and the acc office. Here's the screen shot which is in post 296 in the post game thread. It clearly shows the referee signaling the penalty and the audio announcing the 10 yard penalty and an untimed play has been confirmed by several sources.


http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5650&d=1446435508&thumb=1

Jim is being very kind, there is no flipping way that the flag was picked up or waved off before replay. I remember being elated when the ref made the announcement because they seemed to be conferring a little too long before he made the call official. As you all know, it is in these huddles that the refs compare angles, and such and determine to wave the penalty off. They had more than enough time to wave the flag off before the ref signaled the penalty.

The ACC is lying about this, plain and simple.

martydoesntfoul
11-05-2015, 12:12 PM
Jim is being very kind, there is no flipping way that the flag was picked up or waved off before replay. I remember being elated when the ref made the announcement because they seemed to be conferring a little too long before he made the call official. As you all know, it is in these huddles that the refs compare angles, and such and determine to wave the penalty off. They had more than enough time to wave the flag off before the ref signaled the penalty.

The ACC is lying about this, plain and simple.

And I presume this narrative fits with the first referee announcement, during which he stated no knee was down but the play was still under review. Were they again reviewing the knee? That wouldn't make much sense. So what exactly could they have been reviewing? It's easy to fill in the blank, but the only way anything changes is if one of crew involved in the debacle comes forward... let's hope one of them has been having trouble sleeping for this very reason...

TruBlu
11-05-2015, 05:15 PM
1) If these officials were incompetent in this game, how will they will become competent after a two game suspension?

2) What are the chances that these idiot officials end up with another Duke game? Does the ACC announce in advance who will be officiating which game?

IMHO (where the 'H' stands for Hatethoseidiots), these officials should never call another Duke (or Miami) game.

(On second thought, these idiot officials should never call another game, period.)

SmartDevil
11-05-2015, 06:17 PM
Excellent points above TruBlu.
Suspend the refs not just for 2 games but the rest of the season. Then when the regular season is over, bar them all from ever working an ACC game again.
.

cato
11-05-2015, 06:39 PM
I have hesitated to chime in, since it is long past time for this thread to die, but . . .

College refs are not guaranteed games, are they? My assumption is that the 2 game suspension is the minimum time this crew will sit at home, but that their phones may (will?) be silent for a lot longer than that.

hudlow
11-05-2015, 07:31 PM
The unnamed replay genius still remains at large. Hopefully the booth was checked for DNA...

Olympic Fan
11-05-2015, 07:52 PM
The unnamed replay genius still remains at large. Hopefully the booth was checked for DNA...

He was not unnamed ...

It was Andrew Panucci, may his name live in infamy

devildeac
11-05-2015, 08:05 PM
He was not unnamed ...

It was Andrew Panucci, may his name live in infamy

Speaking of Andrew Panucci, Feinstein has a piece I just discovered:

http://radio.cbssports.com/2015/11/04/john-feinstein-blog-officials-need-to-be-held-accountable/

Tripping William
11-05-2015, 09:09 PM
He was not unnamed ...

It was Andrew Panucci, may his name live in infamy

Andrew "Trombone Shorty" Panucci. Too busy thinking this was Stanford/Cal all over again to do his job properly.

hudlow
11-05-2015, 09:25 PM
He was not unnamed ...

It was Andrew Panucci, may his name live in infamy



Thank-you, I'll remember that when I have the need to spit.

martydoesntfoul
11-05-2015, 11:26 PM
Stay classy Miami.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14062476/miami-hurricanes-says-acc-acknowledged-multiple-incorrect-calls-win-duke-blue-devils

Miami has told season-ticket holders and donors that the Atlantic Coast Conference acknowledged "multiple incorrect calls" against the Hurricanes in last weekend's wild win over Duke, including an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown.

Of course they're not mentioning which one. And then there's this:

"The eight-lateral, touchdown play which won the game will forever be cemented in college football lore and in our storied history," James wrote. "The fact that the ACC publicly acknowledged officiating errors on the play does not, in any way, take away our victory or our incredible spirit."

Um, ok, just keep telling yourselves that.

sagegrouse
11-05-2015, 11:40 PM
Stay classy Miami.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14062476/miami-hurricanes-says-acc-acknowledged-multiple-incorrect-calls-win-duke-blue-devils

Miami has told season-ticket holders and donors that the Atlantic Coast Conference acknowledged "multiple incorrect calls" against the Hurricanes in last weekend's wild win over Duke, including an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown.

Of course they're not mentioning which one. And then there's this:

"The eight-lateral, touchdown play which won the game will forever be cemented in college football lore and in our storied history," James wrote. "The fact that the ACC publicly acknowledged officiating errors on the play does not, in any way, take away our victory or our incredible spirit."

Um, ok, just keep telling yourselves that.

It doesn't sound like the Canes are gonna forfeit this game, does it?

martydoesntfoul
11-06-2015, 12:05 AM
It doesn't sound like the Canes are gonna forfeit this game, does it?

Hmm.... according to the Magic 8-Ball, 'Don't count on it.'

Stray Gator
11-06-2015, 12:15 AM
It doesn't sound like the Canes are gonna forfeit this game, does it?

The Miami AD is right about the fact that the final play "will forever be cemented in college football lore and in our storied history" -- it will stand as an enduring monument to the game officials' lack of competence, to John Swofford's lack of courage, and to the University of Miami's lack of integrity and sportsmanship.

Potato Head
11-06-2015, 01:08 AM
Glad that Miami's press release didn't disappoint, and indeed sounded like what their online fan trolls have been spewing all week. Surprised there wasn't a mention of "all the bad calls that Coach K gets" as well.

Nobody should expect them to forfeit, just say something about how unfortunate it was that the game had to end in such a contentious fashion and then be done with it.

DukieInKansas
11-06-2015, 10:19 AM
Stay classy Miami.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14062476/miami-hurricanes-says-acc-acknowledged-multiple-incorrect-calls-win-duke-blue-devils

Miami has told season-ticket holders and donors that the Atlantic Coast Conference acknowledged "multiple incorrect calls" against the Hurricanes in last weekend's wild win over Duke, including an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown.

Of course they're not mentioning which one. And then there's this:

"The eight-lateral, touchdown play which won the game will forever be cemented in college football lore and in our storied history," James wrote. "The fact that the ACC publicly acknowledged officiating errors on the play does not, in any way, take away our victory or our incredible spirit."

Um, ok, just keep telling yourselves that.

Did the ACC say anything about "an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown"? I may have just been concentrating on the final play and missed that one. Can someone point it out, please?

AustinDevil
11-06-2015, 10:39 AM
The Miami AD is right about the fact that the final play "will forever be cemented in college football lore and in our storied history" -- it will stand as an enduring monument to the game officials' lack of competence, to John Swofford's lack of courage, and to the University of Miami's lack of integrity and sportsmanship.

I almost replied to this along the lines of "no school in the modern era would go back and forfeit that game." (And I do believe no school in the modern era would do so.) But I am forced to agree with the sentiment nonetheless. In addition to keeping the "victory," Miami has also posted the shrug symbol on their official feed, produced a celebratory t-shirt, and now released this statement. Very few schools would have completed that character-less trifecta.


Did the ACC say anything about "an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown"? I may have just been concentrating on the final play and missed that one. Can someone point it out, please?

Nope.

TNTDevil
11-06-2015, 10:47 AM
~snip~ University of Miami's lack of integrity and sportsmanship.
<Beavis & Butthead laugh> He said University of Miami, integrity and sportsmanship in the same sentence!</Beavis & Butthead laugh>
;)

Tom B.
11-06-2015, 10:58 AM
It sounds like this was all said in a letter that Miami sent to its season ticket holders and donors, and wasn't meant for public consumption. They're basically preaching to the choir, no doubt trying to calm the high-dollar contributors who were probably wailing that Miami needed to "do something" in response to the ACC's public statement disowning the game result, and all the ensuing negative press that took the shine off their "win."

That being said, what bonehead(s) in Miami's athletic office was actually naive enough to believe that this wouldn't become public?

jimsumner
11-06-2015, 11:11 AM
It seems to me that our Miami friends might be in some denial as to how this game will be remembered. It will be remembered for their eight-lateral TD the same way the 1972 U.S.-U.S.S.R. gold medal basketball game is remembered for that neat Ruskie OOB play.

In other words, not.

weezie
11-06-2015, 11:16 AM
... trying to calm the high-dollar contributors who were probably wailing that Miami needed to "do something" in response to the ACC's public statement disowning the game result, and all the ensuing negative press that took the shine off their "win."

Unintentionally funny, "calming the high-dollar contributors". I think they love the press, bad attention is better than none at all. They're all hugging themselves!

sagegrouse
11-06-2015, 11:24 AM
Did the ACC say anything about "an erroneous pass-interference call on the drive on which the Blue Devils scored a go-ahead touchdown"? I may have just been concentrating on the final play and missed that one. Can someone point it out, please?

Uhhh,.... It's not a "reviewable call." After every game, as I understands it, just about every team sends video of questionable plays to the conference office. Often, the league director of officials agrees with the complaint, but most of these are not reviewable calls and couldn't even have been challenged on the field by the coaches.

The U. of Miami AD is officially putting "perfume on a pig."

jimsumner
11-06-2015, 11:30 AM
Uhhh,... It's not a "reviewable call." After every game, as I understands it, just about every team sends video of questionable plays to the conference office. Often, the league director of officials agrees with the complaint, but most of these are not reviewable calls and couldn't even have been challenged on the field by the coaches.

The U. of Miami AD is officially putting "perfume on a pig."

The other reviewable call was McCaffrey's fumble in the first half that most emphatically was not a fumble and denied Duke a first down around the Miami 23 in a scoreless game.

Missed it on the field, missed it in the booth.

Guess they didn't mention that one.

oldnavy
11-06-2015, 11:50 AM
The other reviewable call was McCaffrey's fumble in the first half that most emphatically was not a fumble and denied Duke a first down around the Miami 23 in a scoreless game.

Missed it on the field, missed it in the booth.

Guess they didn't mention that one.

I knew it was going to be a long night when the Back Judge was lined up on the wrong side of the field on the very first play from scrimmage..... but I didn't in my wildest imagination think they were going to be THAT BAD, YIKES!

The mighty "U" needed help to beat Duke in football and they are rejoicing about it..... my how the times have changed!

devildeac
11-06-2015, 12:58 PM
It seems to me that our Miami friends might be in some denial as to how this game will be remembered. It will be remembered for their eight-lateral TD the same way the 1972 U.S.-U.S.S.R. gold medal basketball game is remembered for that neat Ruskie OOB play.

In other words, not.

Miami? Friends?

Certainly not after this debacle and vitriolic responses from their fan base/AD.

O/w, agreed.

devildeac
11-06-2015, 01:04 PM
Uhhh,... It's not a "reviewable call." After every game, as I understands it, just about every team sends video of questionable plays to the conference office. Often, the league director of officials agrees with the complaint, but most of these are not reviewable calls and couldn't even have been challenged on the field by the coaches.

The U. of Miami AD is officially putting "perfume on a pig."

Technically, from the list of reviewable penalties someone posted/tweeted in response to this debacle, PI is a reviewable call if there's the suspicion of the pass being tipped, which makes it a "free" ball and removes the PI call from the play. Otherwise, you are correct that the "plain/simple" call of PI is non-reviewable.

BattierD12
11-06-2015, 03:24 PM
It sounds like this was all said in a letter that Miami sent to its season ticket holders and donors, and wasn't meant for public consumption. They're basically preaching to the choir, no doubt trying to calm the high-dollar contributors who were probably wailing that Miami needed to "do something" in response to the ACC's public statement disowning the game result, and all the ensuing negative press that took the shine off their "win."

That being said, what bonehead(s) in Miami's athletic office was actually naive enough to believe that this wouldn't become public?

Even Miami's new president is getting in on the action in an email to the entire student/graduate student/faculty body.

"In the aftermath of the controversy related to the officiating of the game against Duke, I wish to express my disappointment with statements that question the legitimacy of our victory. Let me be clear. Both teams fought hard and at the highest levels of competition, and in the end the University of Miami won."

5674

oldnavy
11-06-2015, 04:01 PM
Even Miami's new president is getting in on the action in an email to the entire student/graduate student/faculty body.

"In the aftermath of the controversy related to the officiating of the game against Duke, I wish to express my disappointment with statements that question the legitimacy of our victory. Let me be clear. Both teams fought hard and at the highest levels of competition, and in the end the University of Miami won."

5674

Well if you repeat a lie long enough......

That attitude ONLY plays well with the Miami faithful anyway. My guess is the more they make statements like that the more they hurt themselves in the public eye, not that the "U" ever really seemed to care about reputation.

devildeac
11-06-2015, 04:04 PM
Even Miami's new president is getting in on the action in an email to the entire student/graduate student/faculty body.

"In the aftermath of the controversy related to the officiating of the game against Duke, I wish to express my disappointment with statements that question the legitimacy of our victory. Let me be clear. Both teams fought hard and at the highest levels of competition, and in the end the University of Miami won."

5674

Further proof that you can't spell stUpid without the U.

What a bunch of maroons.

I don't particularly like Scott Van Pelt but will have to agree with his closing statement that "stupid is the enemy of us all." (I think I got the quote right.)

Tom B.
11-06-2015, 04:58 PM
Even Miami's new president is getting in on the action in an email to the entire student/graduate student/faculty body.

"In the aftermath of the controversy related to the officiating of the game against Duke, I wish to express my disappointment with statements that question the legitimacy of our victory. Let me be clear. Both teams fought hard and at the highest levels of competition, and in the end the University of Miami won."



This smells more and more like a belated effort by the university's higher-ups to quell an uprising among well-heeled donors and Miami football alums who must've been screaming that the university wasn't doing enough to "stand up for the team" as the story rapidly spun out of their control.

Also, "Julio Frenk" sounds like the name of a Bond villain.

Potato Head
11-06-2015, 05:44 PM
I think the only way we solve this dispute is by buying an airplane banner over their next home game.

tux
11-06-2015, 07:29 PM
I think the only way we solve this dispute is by buying an airplane banner over their next home game.


brilliant.

oldnavy
11-07-2015, 07:01 AM
brilliant.

Can we drop the officials out of that plane, "Herb Tarlick, WKRP in Cincinnati style"?

OldPhiKap
11-07-2015, 07:44 AM
Can we drop the officials out of that plane, "Herb Tarlick, WKRP in Cincinnati style"?

"As God as my witness, I thought referees could fly"

cspan37421
11-07-2015, 07:47 AM
Can we drop the officials out of that plane, "Herb Tarlick, WKRP in Cincinnati style"?

Ironically I had just watched that episode (first time watching WKRP in decades) upon the recommendation of a friend.

That said, I'm more than a little uneasy about the joking implication here of throwing the formerly anonymous official out of a plane without a parachute after publicly identifying him. You never know, in any group sufficiently large (such as a fanbase) there's someone in it that has the potential to become unhinged if the circumstances presented themselves. IMO we should all follow the process for protest and exhaust those options. Let's not get to the point where we're publishing his home address and phone number, or the barbershop at which he exchanges envelopes with his bookie (I kid! I kid!).

I'm sure this guy has a family and whatever should happen (besides a 2 week vacation from officiating) should be done through the process in place for these sorts of things.

Sorry if you think I'm ultrasensitive about these things, but if you've ever reffed a game, or even coached a team, you know a bit about fans. Not all are sane, esp. when passions are whipped up.

freshmanjs
11-17-2015, 07:41 AM
Interestingly, there was a very much similar situation in the Ravens/Jags game this weekend. Final play was a game winning field goal, which should not have been allowed. The NFL is not overturning the result either. There is one difference, in that there was not a reviewable call that was missed on replay like in the Duke game. But, there was a very obvious penalty missed that would have ended the game.

oldnavy
11-17-2015, 07:56 AM
Interestingly, there was a very much similar situation in the Ravens/Jags game this weekend. Final play was a game winning field goal, which should not have been allowed. The NFL is not overturning the result either. There is one difference, in that there was not a reviewable call that was missed on replay like in the Duke game. But, there was a very obvious penalty missed that would have ended the game.

Welcome to my world. I am a die hard Ravens fan and Duke fan... not my best year in FB wouldn't you say?

At this point I almost believe I am being punished for all the years I've spent complaining of incompetent and poorly trained officials..... of course if both my teams had played better on the field, the calls would not matter in the first place....

But, I remain dedicated to both teams and know things WILL get better...