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AustinDevil
09-21-2015, 04:38 PM
(1) Sell beer.

(2) Figure out any and all ways to improve the tailgating area and experience. Duke doesn't have the Grove, but the more Duke can create tailgating as the biggest, coolest pregame destination possible, the more it will help.

flyingdutchdevil
09-21-2015, 04:44 PM
(1) Sell beer.

(2) Figure out any and all ways to improve the tailgating area and experience. Duke doesn't have the Grove, but the more Duke can create tailgating as the biggest, coolest pregame destination possible, the more it will help.

1) Can you sell beer at ACC events? If so, I agree, do it. But if it's a NCAA thing or an ACC thing, it ain't happening.

2) Tailgating isn't in the culture of Duke football. It would be sweet if it was, but it's tough to get it going. Duke undergrads need to lead the charge for solid tailgates that lead to better admission, but let's say that experiment failed. Badly.

Des Esseintes
09-21-2015, 05:04 PM
Enough half measures. Let's boost undergrad enrollment to 30,000 and have done with it.

AustinDevil
09-21-2015, 05:09 PM
1) Can you sell beer at ACC events? If so, I agree, do it. But if it's a NCAA thing or an ACC thing, it ain't happening.

2) Tailgating isn't in the culture of Duke football. It would be sweet if it was, but it's tough to get it going. Duke undergrads need to lead the charge for solid tailgates that lead to better admission, but let's say that experiment failed. Badly.

(1) Yes, there is no ACC prohibition. Syracuse was selling beer last year. Other schools who have similar attendance issues (I am most familiar with SMU) have started selling beer in the last two years.

(2) I totally agree on the lack of culture. I just would like to create it. YMMV, but I don't think it has to be student-led. The Grove is not student-led. The Boulevard at SMU is not student-led (and didn't even exist 16 years ago, but has become the #1 tradition there).

AustinDevil
09-21-2015, 05:10 PM
Enough half measures. Let's boost undergrad enrollment to 30,000 and have done with it.

Very constructive. If you'd like to comment on the merits of those two ideas, please do so.

Olympic Fan
09-21-2015, 06:03 PM
The prohibition on beer sales is not an ACC rule -- it's North Carolina state law.

The state prohibits alcohol sales at collegiate sporting events. Period.

Up until this past spring, it also limited sale of alcoholic beverages at professional sports venues. There was a law that only allowed in-stadium beer sales in venues over 60,000 that were in cities over 450,000 (smaller pro venues, like Durham Athletic Park, were allowed to sell beer on the concourse, but no beer venders in the stands). As it turned out, only the football stadium in Charlotte met the old criteria for in-stand beer sales.

The new law allows beer venders to cruise the stands in any pro venue of over 3,000 seats -- but they can't verbally advertise their product (No "Beer here" shouts).

I know it's crazy, but North Carolina's alcohol policies have long been crazy -- anybody else remember the brown bag era?

I think there is a movement towards relaxing some alcohol restrictions and it's possible the law might get changed, but as of now, it's an illegal option in this state.

AustinDevil
09-21-2015, 06:05 PM
The prohibition on beer sales is not an ACC rule -- it's North Carolina state law.

The state prohibits alcohol sales at collegiate sporting events. Period.

Up until this past spring, it also limited sale of alcoholic beverages at professional sports venues. There was a law that only allowed in-stadium beer sales in venues over 60,000 that were in cities over 450,000 (smaller pro venues, like Durham Athletic Park, were allowed to sell beer on the concourse, but no beer venders in the stands). As it turned out, only the football stadium in Charlotte met the old criteria for in-stand beer sales.

The new law allows beer venders to cruise the stands in any pro venue of over 3,000 seats -- but they can't verbally advertise their product (No "Beer here" shouts).

I know it's crazy, but North Carolina's alcohol policies have long been crazy -- anybody else remember the brown bag era?

I think there is a movement towards relaxing some alcohol restrictions and it's possible the law might get changed, but as of now, it's an illegal option in this state.
Ugh. Thanks for the info.

uh_no
09-21-2015, 06:17 PM
The prohibition on beer sales is not an ACC rule -- it's North Carolina state law.

The state prohibits alcohol sales at collegiate sporting events. Period.

Up until this past spring, it also limited sale of alcoholic beverages at professional sports venues. There was a law that only allowed in-stadium beer sales in venues over 60,000 that were in cities over 450,000 (smaller pro venues, like Durham Athletic Park, were allowed to sell beer on the concourse, but no beer venders in the stands). As it turned out, only the football stadium in Charlotte met the old criteria for in-stand beer sales.

The new law allows beer venders to cruise the stands in any pro venue of over 3,000 seats -- but they can't verbally advertise their product (No "Beer here" shouts).

I know it's crazy, but North Carolina's alcohol policies have long been crazy -- anybody else remember the brown bag era?

I think there is a movement towards relaxing some alcohol restrictions and it's possible the law might get changed, but as of now, it's an illegal option in this state.

as was sleuthed here, http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36454-FB-Duke-10-Northwestern-19-Post-Game-Thread&p=827665#post827665

It is not actually state law.


No permit for the sale of alcoholic beverages shall be issued to a business on the campus or property of a public school, college, or university

plimnko
09-21-2015, 06:18 PM
are they running shuttle buses this year? parking and getting into the stadium is always a hassle.

moonpie23
09-21-2015, 06:21 PM
I waited for a couple of weeks to cool down before i posted my blast regarding the handicap seating/access rant. one elevator.....for the entire stadium....wow....that is a nice big hardy cup of BS right there...



anyway.


1 - beer
2 - parking (it's a mess)
3 - DECENT wifi. todays youngsters don't want anything to do with someplace that doesn't have wifi.....and not that 5mbps crap.......REAL wifi..
4 - same food on both sides of the stadium
5 - ANYTHING.......... other than papa johns S.O.A.Shingle pizza.......


ps.......and tell those kids to get off my lawn....

uh_no
09-21-2015, 06:22 PM
are they running shuttle buses this year? parking and getting into the stadium is always a hassle.

only to PG1/H lot area. and they only go to the chapel.

why they can't run them down circuit drive and all the way to towerview(like they did for UNC last year...) who knows.

but hey, at least they've color coded the lots this year!

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2015, 06:37 PM
Regarding the culture of tailgating, there was a time before many of you came along when tailgating was a big thing at Duke. I remember one couple who served and ate at tables with white cloths and silver candelabras. Mrs. Wally Jarboe's tailgate spreads were legendary. There was a family who used to rent a trailer (as in tractor trailer) for their tailgate parties before the home Duke - Carolina games. There are people in various different lots who have been tailgating in their own way for years.

As for today, I think what we've got going on in the Card Gym Lot is the building of our own tradition. There is a core group of us who have been working at this since Coach Cutcliffe's arrival. Staging a memorable tailgate party takes a lot of work.

I would add that it's very important that we develop our own traditions and ways of doing things rather than simply copy whatever is done elsewhere. Comparisons and attempts to replicate what somebody else does comes off as amateurish and is never the same as the original.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2015, 06:54 PM
(1) Sell beer.

(2) Figure out any and all ways to improve the tailgating area and experience. Duke doesn't have the Grove, but the more Duke can create tailgating as the biggest, coolest pregame destination possible, the more it will help.

So where do you tailgate?

fuse
09-21-2015, 08:05 PM
People will decry free admission (not that Duke would ever do it) as counterproductive- maybe 99 cents or $5/game open seating would help.

Maybe we need the Duke alumni association to sponsor a bill to change the college athletics law against serving beer?

Basketball players wouldnt like it (and already do a good job of cameos)- a free autograph line might be a draw.

Make every game a "large groups are free" event.
20 people? 100 people? Free admission would be well covered by the crazy food cost in stadium.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2015, 08:22 PM
Wake Forest sells beer during football games at BB&T Field, but the venue isn't located on campus.

hallcity
09-21-2015, 08:52 PM
What about ending noon starts in September?

CameronBornAndBred
09-21-2015, 09:05 PM
2) Tailgating isn't in the culture of Duke football. It would be sweet if it was, but it's tough to get it going. Duke undergrads need to lead the charge for solid tailgates that lead to better admission, but let's say that experiment failed. Badly.

Says who?

5506 5507 5508

And that's just our tent, one of many on Blue Devil Alley...and those tents are just a few of literally hundreds of tailgates all across the lots. In fact, Duke is having a contest now to see which Iron Duke is putting on the best tailgate at each game. (And of course there are tons more that aren't IDs still hosting their own shindigs.)

CameronBornAndBred
09-21-2015, 09:12 PM
I waited for a couple of weeks to cool down before i posted my blast regarding the handicap seating/access rant. one elevator.....for the entire stadium....wow....that is a nice big hardy cup of BS right there...



anyway.


1 - beer
2 - parking (it's a mess)
3 - DECENT wifi. todays youngsters don't want anything to do with someplace that doesn't have wifi.....and not that 5mbps crap.......REAL wifi..
4 - same food on both sides of the stadium
5 - ANYTHING.......... other than papa johns S.O.A.Shingle pizza.......


ps.......and tell those kids to get off my lawn....
The guest wifi is ok on campus, I used my tablet to fire up our espn3 feed to our TV for the NCCU game, it was pretty smooth.

Not to bust on your curmudgeony reference, which I love, but there actually are kids on the lawn. One of the big attractions for game day is the kid zone in Kville.

I wonder if Coach K ever looks down and mutters those infamous words...he outta, just for some youtube gold. :)

BigWayne
09-21-2015, 09:31 PM
Wake Forest sells beer during football games at BB&T Field, but the venue isn't located on campus.

BB&T is owned by WFU, so it is the same as campus far as the statute is concerned, except for the fact it is not a public university so the statute doesn't apply. The only thing stopping Duke from selling beer at any athletic event is the Duke administration. I have to assume they are trying to limit the access for students because they have stated they will have alcohol in the suites.

CDu
09-21-2015, 09:50 PM
as was sleuthed here, http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36454-FB-Duke-10-Northwestern-19-Post-Game-Thread&p=827665#post827665

It is not actually state law.

So now that we have established that it is not state law and that Wake Forest sells beer at their games, back to the question of whether or not beer sales will drastically change attendance. And whether or not Duke should do it.

Faison1
09-21-2015, 10:46 PM
So, if Duke is serious about trying to develop a local fan base, why not get into the local elementary schools and offer some family packages? Or, invite a whole school to attend one weekend....maybe rotate them.

Surely there's some young kids who want to watch a good football game in their own backyard....

What about local employers? Does Wachovia/Wells Fargo still have a big presence downtown? Isn't there a significant Methodist Retirement Center/Community in Durham?

Maybe Jim Sumner knows if they've tried all this before....

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-21-2015, 11:41 PM
Speaking of the band and supporting the program, here's an article from goduke.com. One part of the announcement is regarding the opportunity to be a guest conductor at a basketball game. Perhaps more significant than that is the announcement of the campaign to establish a $2.5 million endowment for the band. This is a major upgrade for a group that not so very many years ago was relegated to storing their instruments in the old tunnel that leads into the stadium.

Should anyone who reads this think that the donations required to be a conductor are too much or that the endowment will be excessive, let's put it all into context. A few years back the Golden Band of Tigerland (LSU) needed to have a new facility built. The band had been housed in an inadequate facility which had been more or less the same since Huey Long was governor and wrote some songs for the band. During the fund raiser for the band, one of the perks offered was to lead the band into Tiger Stadium prior to a game. The donation required to lead the band in: $1 million.

To establish an endowment for the band is a huge step in developing the level of excellence that we have come to expect for all efforts at Duke.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210360930&DB_OEM_ID=4200

tux
09-21-2015, 11:43 PM
While I would enjoy having some good beer served at the games, I don't think that would help attendance very much. There's plenty of alcohol being consumed around the stadium. I just don't believe that there's some large swath of people who are now staying home who would show up if (expensive) beer was being served on the concourse. Honestly, I don't think there's some gimmicky way to fill Wallace Wade. Duke just has to continue to improve in terms of play on the field and in facilities, and game day attendance will hopefully grow organically... We need to remember that attendance is down nationally, even at schools with much more recent football success. Sporting events have become expensive (although Duke football games are still a great value IMO).

uh_no
09-21-2015, 11:53 PM
One of the things I think they should tap into far more is the cary apex area.

SOOOO many transplants there that work in the triangle. They have no affiliation to any of the local universities....draw them into duke as the affordable alternative to UNC/NCSU...good football without the PITA of dealing with 50k peoeple.

gep
09-22-2015, 02:50 AM
People will decry free admission (not that Duke would ever do it) as counterproductive- maybe 99 cents or $5/game open seating would help.

Maybe we need the Duke alumni association to sponsor a bill to change the college athletics law against serving beer?

Basketball players wouldnt like it (and already do a good job of cameos)- a free autograph line might be a draw.

Make every game a "large groups are free" event.
20 people? 100 people? Free admission would be well covered by the crazy food cost in stadium.

I just posted on the Northwestern game post-game thread on attendance before seeing this...

***********
Here's my 2 cents on attendance. If TV money is "that good" such that game times are totally dictated by such... what about just not charging any admission to attend the games. Keep concessions reasonable (gotta pay for the cost of goods, at least). Until there's a bunch of "sell-outs" (full stadium), just keep admission free to all. Get butts in the stands... maybe they keep coming back.
***********

TKG
09-22-2015, 06:13 AM
Wake Forest sells beer during football games at BB&T Field, but the venue isn't located on campus.


So the Baptists in North Carlina sell beer? What next,dancing at BB&T? Can the Apocalypse be far behind?

flyingdutchdevil
09-22-2015, 08:40 AM
So now that we have established that it is not state law and that Wake Forest sells beer at their games, back to the question of whether or not beer sales will drastically change attendance. And whether or not Duke should do it.

You'd get a few more people, but it's a band-aid rather than a crutch. The sub-sector that would absolutely take advantage are the grad students. Beer? check. Outdoor drinking? check.

I fully support drinking at sports events and, if anything, gives Duke a little more money as well.

aimo
09-22-2015, 09:03 AM
What about ending noon starts in September?

I agree. Non-televised games should be at night. Put those expensive lights to work. Especially irritating last year when we had all those day game scorchers, then they schedule the LAST game of the season at night when it was cold.

tux
09-22-2015, 09:30 AM
I agree. Non-televised games should be at night. Put those expensive lights to work. Especially irritating last year when we had all those day game scorchers, then they schedule the LAST game of the season at night when it was cold.


I agree about the noon start times. Duke markets the games as family events, but almost every kid 12 and under has youth sports on Saturday mornings that run to about 1 o'clock or so. I know a ton of fans who miss games b/c of this. That said, Cut opened last week's press conference saying how great it was to have an early start time. Couldn't tell if he was being serious with the media or not. So, I think there's a disconnect in terms of what start times folks actually prefer. (Not that Duke determines the start times...)

For families with kids, I think 3:30pm is the sweet spot. The game is over well before bed times and the later start doesn't encroach on Saturday morning activities...

In terms of free admission, I also think that's a good idea. I'd advocate for selling all the tickets between the 30 yard lines (or so)... and then making everything else free (first come, first serve)... I know several folks who just buy GA season tickets but could afford better seats. Those folks would probably consider buying the better seats to assure themselves a spot.

Scorp4me
09-22-2015, 09:33 AM
While I would enjoy having some good beer served at the games, I don't think that would help attendance very much. There's plenty of alcohol being consumed around the stadium. I just don't believe that there's some large swath of people who are now staying home who would show up if (expensive) beer was being served on the concourse. Honestly, I don't think there's some gimmicky way to fill Wallace Wade. Duke just has to continue to improve in terms of play on the field and in facilities, and game day attendance will hopefully grow organically... We need to remember that attendance is down nationally, even at schools with much more recent football success. Sporting events have become expensive (although Duke football games are still a great value IMO).

I was about to post, but found that Tux pretty much said exactly what I was thinking. That just ain't in and his comment that there is not some gimmicky way of doing it is true as well.

One has to remember all of the things Duke has going against it when it comes to getting people to the actual stadium in football, including the smaller alumni base and other local options. Yes, Duke used to fill the stadiums to over flowing. But that was a different time when people didn't have access to football on tv. With the cost involved one could argue that the tv is the better option (I'm simply saying it could be argued). All schools around the country are struggling with attendance so it only makes sense that Duke is as well and perhaps even more so.

AustinDevil
09-22-2015, 12:24 PM
I waited for a couple of weeks to cool down before i posted my blast regarding the handicap seating/access rant. one elevator.....for the entire stadium....wow....that is a nice big hardy cup of BS right there...



anyway.


1 - beer
2 - parking (it's a mess)
3 - DECENT wifi. todays youngsters don't want anything to do with someplace that doesn't have wifi.....and not that 5mbps crap.......REAL wifi..
4 - same food on both sides of the stadium
5 - ANYTHING.......... other than papa johns S.O.A.Shingle pizza.......


ps.......and tell those kids to get off my lawn....

There's a lot of good in this post. Everything possible should be done to make the game-day experience as attractive as possible to the widest fanbase possible. I understand that improved parking is in development. Absolutely, WIFI capable of providing good service to 30,000+ people is a must-have. Good and readily available food. Beer, now that we have established we can sell it and, even better, UNC and NC State cannot.

One other thing I might add: better and more rapid admissions. We should never show a national TV audience a partially full stadium at kickoff for UNC, with thousands of students and other fans stuck in massive queues. Yes, too many may show up at the same time, just before kickoff. We've still got to get them in the stadium more quickly. And some of the students who were missing the first quarter last fall did not show up just before kickoff.

AustinDevil
09-22-2015, 12:30 PM
Regarding the culture of tailgating, there was a time before many of you came along when tailgating was a big thing at Duke. I remember one couple who served and ate at tables with white cloths and silver candelabras. Mrs. Wally Jarboe's tailgate spreads were legendary. There was a family who used to rent a trailer (as in tractor trailer) for their tailgate parties before the home Duke - Carolina games. There are people in various different lots who have been tailgating in their own way for years.

As for today, I think what we've got going on in the Card Gym Lot is the building of our own tradition. There is a core group of us who have been working at this since Coach Cutcliffe's arrival. Staging a memorable tailgate party takes a lot of work.

I would add that it's very important that we develop our own traditions and ways of doing things rather than simply copy whatever is done elsewhere. Comparisons and attempts to replicate what somebody else does comes off as amateurish and is never the same as the original.

I would never denigrate those who are building the Card Gym Lot tradition. They (you) are awesome fans and I love the dedication and engagement. I would also never suggest that Duke copy anyone else. For one thing, that isn't possible--Duke doesn't have a space available that replicates the Grove, or any other school.

My point is that Duke needs to build a bigger pregame, tailgate environment that is big enough and varied enough to be welcoming and appealing to newcomers, casual fans, and also gets the attention and interest of opposing fans. It absolutely helps with the college-football environment, and with attendance.

devildeac
09-22-2015, 01:05 PM
I would never denigrate those who are building the Card Gym Lot tradition. They (you) are awesome fans and I love the dedication and engagement. I would also never suggest that Duke copy anyone else. For one thing, that isn't possible--Duke doesn't have a space available that replicates the Grove, or any other school.

My point is that Duke needs to build a bigger pregame, tailgate environment that is big enough and varied enough to be welcoming and appealing to newcomers, casual fans, and also gets the attention and interest of opposing fans. It absolutely helps with the college-football environment, and with attendance.

The ID/Duke "sponsored" pregame/tailgate is $40 (up from $30 last year, IIRC) and includes alcohol (what type/s, I don't know). The non-alcohol consuming patrons pay $15. I don't know what the menu is either as I'm in a moderately large tailgate/tent group already with BYOB and our own chefs/cooks. The cynic in me thinks burgers and fixins, BBQ, hot dogs and a few sides. The larger cynic says bud and budlite for the adult beverages. Has anyone here attended one of these so they can correct/expand/clarify my impressions/thoughts?

uh_no
09-22-2015, 01:20 PM
One other thing I might add: better and more rapid admissions. We should never show a national TV audience a partially full stadium at kickoff for UNC, with thousands of students and other fans stuck in massive queues. Yes, too many may show up at the same time, just before kickoff. We've still got to get them in the stadium more quickly. And some of the students who were missing the first quarter last fall did not show up just before kickoff.

i think you'll be happy next year when the new entrance construction is done. ingress and egress should be much smoother.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-22-2015, 01:22 PM
The ID/Duke "sponsored" pregame/tailgate is $40 (up from $30 last year, IIRC) and includes alcohol (what type/s, I don't know). The non-alcohol consuming patrons pay $15. I don't know what the menu is either as I'm in a moderately large tailgate/tent group already with BYOB and our own chefs/cooks. The cynic in me thinks burgers and fixins, BBQ, hot dogs and a few sides. The larger cynic says bud and budlite for the adult beverages. Has anyone here attended one of these so they can correct/expand/clarify my impressions/thoughts?
What's most important to me as I look at the big picture is that Duke facilitates a variety of ways fans can experience some sort of tailgate experience before each game. People who attend the games have a wide variety of tastes and expectations. Their means of travel to get to the games, the frequency of attending and even the extent of any sort of connections they may have vary quite a bit. What's offered at the party which is advertised before each game may not fit what you or I may want, but it meets the needs of many folks.

flyingdutchdevil
09-22-2015, 01:28 PM
The ID/Duke "sponsored" pregame/tailgate is $40 (up from $30 last year, IIRC) and includes alcohol (what type/s, I don't know). The non-alcohol consuming patrons pay $15. I don't know what the menu is either as I'm in a moderately large tailgate/tent group already with BYOB and our own chefs/cooks. The cynic in me thinks burgers and fixins, BBQ, hot dogs and a few sides. The larger cynic says bud and budlite for the adult beverages. Has anyone here attended one of these so they can correct/expand/clarify my impressions/thoughts?

This points makes me smile. 1) agree on the food. It's the South, which has great food, and they can be a little more creative with the food. 2) there is nothing wrong with budlite. I will probably get flames for that comment, but it's a great drinkable beer on a hot day. Plus, if I'm tailgating, I'm drinking 8+ beers, and I can't do that with ambers and pilsners (hey, I'm European, so I love my lagers, stouts, pilsners, and a few ales. These IPAs, saisons, etc are way too tasty to qualify as beer ;)). Bring on the fancy food and the budlite! Sorry devildeac.

johnb
09-22-2015, 01:41 PM
So now that we have established that it is not state law and that Wake Forest sells beer at their games, back to the question of whether or not beer sales will drastically change attendance. And whether or not Duke should do it.

I don't recall whether they sold beer in the late 1970's, but I do recall House P carrying in its own keg to games, generally built into a casket with "Death to Virginia" or whatever painted on the outside.

hallcity
09-22-2015, 01:52 PM
This points makes me smile. 1) agree on the food. It's the South, which has great food, and they can be a little more creative with the food. 2) there is nothing wrong with budlite. I will probably get flames for that comment, but it's a great drinkable beer on a hot day. Plus, if I'm tailgating, I'm drinking 8+ beers, and I can't do that with ambers and pilsners (hey, I'm European, so I love my lagers, stouts, pilsners, and a few ales. These IPAs, saisons, etc are way too tasty to qualify as beer ;)). Bring on the fancy food and the budlite! Sorry devildeac.

The menu varies from game to game. The one time I went this year, the menu included BBQ and wings. The time I went last year there was pasta and salad. There are TVs so you can watch other games. It's pretty comfortable under the tent. It's a good deal as long as you don't get the alcohol. That's $25 more, which is a ripoff unless you plan to drink eight beers, which I hope you don't really do.

BTW, they close it down as soon as the game begins.

devildeac
09-22-2015, 02:02 PM
This points makes me smile. 1) agree on the food. It's the South, which has great food, and they can be a little more creative with the food. 2) there is nothing wrong with budlite. I will probably get flames for that comment, but it's a great drinkable beer on a hot day. Plus, if I'm tailgating, I'm drinking 8+ beers, and I can't do that with ambers and pilsners (hey, I'm European, so I love my lagers, stouts, pilsners, and a few ales. These IPAs, saisons, etc are way too tasty to qualify as beer ;)). Bring on the fancy food and the budlite! Sorry devildeac.

No apology needed. No flames necessary:p. I'll drink my 2-3 micros at our tailgate over 2-3 hours, sharing with others, of course, along with 2-3 bottles of water and both my palate and intravascular volume levels are satisfied. As someone corrected me on another thread, (beverage) beauty is in the eye of the be(er)holder;). Part of my "slap" was against the prices Duke charges (to agree with previously mentioned gripes in this thread) and some invitations to ID functions at MSG, the Meadowlands, Miami football tailgate in years past which had rather high price tags on limited quantities of chicken strips and other finger foods and similar beverage choices. To be fair, I've also attended a number of Chalk Talks before home MBB games and been well fed with a buffet that included an entree, several sides, dessert, an adult beverage or two for $15-20, IIRC. The bonus there was (usually) Coach Badass previewing that night's game (and reminding me what a great time I was having and eating:o.)

jimsumner
09-22-2015, 02:30 PM
I asked about beer today. A senior staffer confirmed that there are no state or ACC prohibitions but that "the administration won't let us" sell beer.

No current effort to change that.

dukelifer
09-22-2015, 03:24 PM
Give away more tickets to the local community and provide easy transportation for them in and out. Helps with the perception of Duke in the community and gets more folks in seats. If the premise here is to raise attendance to make more money- the options are much more limited.

tux
09-22-2015, 03:25 PM
I asked about beer today. A senior staffer confirmed that there are no state or ACC prohibitions but that "the administration won't let us" sell beer.

No current effort to change that.


I also think that Duke allowing ticket holders to get a stamp in order to leave and return to the game (not the case at many other schools) lessens the need to serve beer inside the stadium. It's not like folks aren't drinking at the games, it's just mostly outside the stadium. Fine with me, as I've already expressed my doubts about beer moving the attendance needle. Plus, the downside to serving folks inside the stadium... (more bad language, probably more fights...)

BTW: A logical extension to free admission would be to pay folks to come. Maybe $10/quarter +$10 extra for staying through the 4th quarter. (just kidding, I think)

CameronBornAndBred
09-22-2015, 03:31 PM
Plus, the downside to serving folks inside the stadium... (more bad language, probably more fights...)

...more wrecks.
Reminds me of when they started kicking Dead Heads out of the parking lots after shows instead of allowing camping, I cringed at the thought of even 5% of those people driving home afterwards.
Beer in stadium = drinking before and during the game. At least now, they sober up inside as they watch.

devildeac
09-22-2015, 03:56 PM
...more wrecks.
Reminds me of when they started kicking Dead Heads out of the parking lots after shows instead of allowing camping, I cringed at the thought of even 5% of those people driving home afterwards.
Beer in stadium = drinking before and during the game. At least now, they sober up inside as they watch.

Or, at the tent before, during and after the game like some crazie cooks do, but not mentioning any names:rolleyes:;).

Kimist
09-22-2015, 04:43 PM
.... Put those expensive lights to work. ....

It appeared on TV that all of the stadium lights were on for the entire Northwestern game and its noon EDT kick-off.

As others have noted, it was far from an overcast/ cloudy day and the game ended well before sunset.

k

BigWayne
09-22-2015, 04:43 PM
I asked about beer today. A senior staffer confirmed that there are no state or ACC prohibitions but that "the administration won't let us" sell beer.

No current effort to change that.

Thanks for asking. Maybe after they have been serving alcohol to the big spenders in the suites for a while, somebody at a press conference will ask them why they discriminate against the common fans on this topic.



One other thing I might add: better and more rapid admissions. We should never show a national TV audience a partially full stadium at kickoff for UNC, with thousands of students and other fans stuck in massive queues. Yes, too many may show up at the same time, just before kickoff. We've still got to get them in the stadium more quickly. And some of the students who were missing the first quarter last fall did not show up just before kickoff.

One of the main reasons to sell beer inside. The current environment at many college stadiums encourages people to stay at their tailgate parties to the last possible moment. They should even sell beer at a discount for early entrants and raise the prices back 15-30 minutes before kickoff.

uh_no
09-22-2015, 06:05 PM
I asked about beer today. A senior staffer confirmed that there are no state or ACC prohibitions but that "the administration won't let us" sell beer.

No current effort to change that.

because i needed anothe reason not to be a fan of the current administration!

Native
09-22-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't recall whether they sold beer in the late 1970's, but I do recall House P carrying in its own keg to games, generally built into a casket with "Death to Virginia" or whatever painted on the outside.

Thought exercise: imagine what would happen if students did that today.

OldPhiKap
09-22-2015, 09:19 PM
I think there is really only one answer to this problem.

"Stonehenge"

-jk
09-22-2015, 10:12 PM
I think there is really only one answer to this problem.

"Stonehenge"

I think you've misspelled "BOG".

-jk

cspan37421
09-22-2015, 11:02 PM
I think there is really only one answer to this problem.

"Stonehenge"

Can I raise a practical question at this point? Are we gonna do Stonehenge tomorrow?

ricks68
09-23-2015, 12:17 AM
I just rechecked the thread, but still may have missed it, but hasn't anyone gone as far as stating the obvious solution: Keep winning more games?!!:)

ricks

wilson
09-23-2015, 09:56 AM
I think the time is ripe for a more broad-based, concerted effort to stimulate student tailgating. I was an undergrad during years when a) tailgating was flat-out debaucherous, and b) the team was flat-out terrible (basically, the Franks/Roof era). In my mind, there's a direct correlation between those two things. The football game happening over yonder was a good excuse to hang out in the parking lot and get hammered, and the abysmal state of the program was a good excuse for most students not to bother ever going into the stadium. Because many people did nothing but stand in an asphalt parking lot drinking, the scene lent itself quite well to widespread, severe intoxication, eventually leading to the death of the early-'00s "Tailgate" phenomenon.
Now that there's some momentum and excitement surrounding the program, it seems that students could be much more easily enticed to enjoy some parking lot beverages and then go into Wallace Wade to enjoy the game. I know there have been some (ongoing) conversations about reintroducing student tailgating, but it seems to me that many of those efforts have been halfhearted and that the events on the whole feel forced (I could be wrong; these are my impressions gleaned from recent Chronicle coverage of the process, and from this board).
I know that student activities like this that are centered around alcohol-heavy environments are a very delicate matter, but my read from afar is that more could be done to stimulate student buy-in on game day.

OldPhiKap
09-23-2015, 10:16 AM
What makes tailgating big in SEC country isn't the students, it's the alum and other fans that make a concerted effort to make the games.

Duke is somewhat hampered in our geographic diversity, both before and after matriculation.

Until we have a large NC base of fans and alum willing to go to the games, it will be difficult. Student attendance is a historic problem, but even then that's a small part of filling the stands.

luvdahops
09-23-2015, 10:26 AM
Can I raise a practical question at this point? Are we gonna do Stonehenge tomorrow?

No, we're not gonna f**ing do Stonehenge tomorrow!@#&#!

oldnavy
09-23-2015, 10:29 AM
One of the nice things about the Duke games is that I rarely if EVER see boorish behavior in the stadium. Would in game beer sales change that? I'm not sure... but I know that other sporting events I attend where beer is sold, I usually see and hear much more... eh, "less than family friendly" behavior. Is all that alcohol related.... probably not, but I am sure a lot of it is.

My guess is that selling beer would have a very minimal impact on attendance at all. I just can't imagine that there is a significant population of fans out there that are currently saying "I'd go to the Duke game tomorrow if I could have a beer there"...

I do think that there are plenty of current attending fans who would enjoy beer at the games, but they are already attending... so not sure of the net gain. Maybe a marketing study to gauge the impact (cost - benefit)?

The issue to me is pretty simple. Duke football is battling decades of malaise and a bad reputation. I believe the current trends of WINNING (being first and foremost), stadium seating improvements, marketing, etc.. that are in place will move the attendance meter, but not overnight.

I can tell you that in my personal experience, that I lost interest in Duke FB years ago when it was clear to me that the University had little interest in fielding a competitive team. I refused to invest emotionally or financially in program that was just going through the motions. Even when the team was improving recently, I didn't pay much attention, feeling that it to would pass. Then I went to the Texas AM game in Atlanta. I knew then that Duke FB had committed to excellence, so I purchased season tickets, and now drive 3 hours to see home games.

If the University stays committed to football, I believe the fan base and attendance will continue to grow, but it will take several years to overcome the reputation that was built over the past decades, that Duke FB isn't worth the time. Duke FB is worth the time! Tell your friends!!

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-23-2015, 10:41 AM
What makes tailgating big in SEC country isn't the students, it's the alum and other fans that make a concerted effort to make the games.

Duke is somewhat hampered in our geographic diversity, both before and after matriculation.

Until we have a large NC base of fans and alum willing to go to the games, it will be difficult. Student attendance is a historic problem, but even then that's a small part of filling the stands.

Duke had lots of football fans in the old days before the program hit the skids. There was a lot of support in Durham and surrounding areas as well as across the state of NC and adjoining states. During the time the football program slid into deep disrespect, basketball was emerging as the most popular collegiate sport in this country.... in addition, the Duke basketball program was on the rise. As time passed, fans gravitated to other college programs while Duke seemed to be passive in the matter of acknowledging the football program or its fans. It's hard to be drawn to supporting a team when the college's administrators and others publicly make fun of it.

OldPhiKap
09-23-2015, 10:47 AM
Duke had lots of football fans in the old days before the program hit the skids. There was a lot of support in Durham and surrounding areas as well as across the state of NC and adjoining states. During the time the football program slid into deep disrespect, basketball was emerging as the most popular collegiate sport in this country.... in addition, the Duke basketball program was on the rise. As time passed, fans gravitated to other college programs while Duke seemed to be passive in the matter of acknowledging the football program or its fans. It's hard to be drawn to supporting a team when the college's administrators and others publicly make fun of it.

I agree (as always) with Sister DiBD. I am glad that the administration seems to be addressing the bold part to some degree, and Cut is clearly working to rebuild that base. I would like to see the administration doing as much as possible to attract, retain, and enhance local (75 miles or so) attendance. Better parking, area to tailgate, strong marketing, etc. I imagine they are doing some of that but, at the end of the day, that's the engine.

I have been to a bunch of UGa and Gamecock games over the years. The fans come from a roughly two-hour radius and tailgate for hours. See old friends, picnic outdoors, etc. It is not just about the game, it is about the whole game experience. And although the students are there and vocal, they are a small segment of the actual attendees.

Troublemaker
09-23-2015, 10:50 AM
Honestly, I don't think there's some gimmicky way to fill Wallace Wade. Duke just has to continue to improve in terms of play on the field and in facilities, and game day attendance will hopefully grow organically... We need to remember that attendance is down nationally, even at schools with much more recent football success. Sporting events have become expensive (although Duke football games are still a great value IMO).

Like others, I agree with this.

Duke just has to continue improving everything, including recruiting. One day Cut is going to have an absolute stud QB at Duke. Cut's due for that, considering his background, reputation, and Manning connections. Watch how fast the stadium fills up when there's a guy who can throw for 25-30 TDs efficiently under center. Maybe that can even be Sirk in a year or two.

budwom
09-23-2015, 11:04 AM
Like others, I agree with this.

Duke just has to continue improving everything, including recruiting. One day Cut is going to have an absolute stud QB at Duke. Cut's due for that, considering his background, reputation, and Manning connections. Watch how fast the stadium fills up when there's a guy who can throw for 25-30 TDs efficiently under center. Maybe that can even be Sirk in a year or two.

I tend to agree with this. Moreover, IF we can improve, we're going to start to get better game times from the dogass omnipotent TV gods....Having sat through Saturday's bake fest (which was hardly the worst we've encountered, but
seriously uncomfortable nonetheless) I can only think how excellent conditions would have been with a 6pm, 7pm or 8pm start time. Right now we seem to get an inordinate number of
noon games, which are not great for either tailgating or heat avoidance. If we can hold the current recruiting class together, our record should eventually justify better TV exposure.

p.s. Seemingly the state U. over in chapel hill had a ton of empty seats on saturday which shows this is hardly just a Duke problem.

p.p.s. quick perusal of the internetz says Kenan stadium can hold 63k, announced attendance was 41k, and reality was substantially lower than that, meriting a number of articles on the situation.
When the state U, centrally located in a state of roughly ten million can't do better than that, you know there's a pervasive problem out there.

wilson
09-23-2015, 11:08 AM
...Seemingly the state U. over in chapel hill had a ton of empty seats on saturday which shows this is hardly just a Duke problem.Nor is it just a North Carolina problem; average crowds nationwide during the 2014 season were at their lowest in 14 years (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24891415/college-football-attendance-home-crowds-drop-to-lowest-in-14-years).

allenmurray
09-23-2015, 11:29 AM
I agree about the noon start times. Duke markets the games as family events, but almost every kid 12 and under has youth sports on Saturday mornings that run to about 1 o'clock or so. I know a ton of fans who miss games b/c of this. That said, Cut opened last week's press conference saying how great it was to have an early start time. Couldn't tell if he was being serious with the media or not. So, I think there's a disconnect in terms of what start times folks actually prefer. (Not that Duke determines the start times...)


Cut has said other times in the past that he prefers early start times.

sagegrouse
09-23-2015, 11:32 AM
You know what would boost student attendance at games? Saturday morning classes, just like in the old days. Students would have to get up early, and after classes could head over to the game. There may be time for a little partying.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-23-2015, 11:42 AM
I agree (as always) with Sister DiBD. I am glad that the administration seems to be addressing the bold part to some degree, and Cut is clearly working to rebuild that base. I would like to see the administration doing as much as possible to attract, retain, and enhance local (75 miles or so) attendance. Better parking, area to tailgate, strong marketing, etc. I imagine they are doing some of that but, at the end of the day, that's the engine.

I have been to a bunch of UGa and Gamecock games over the years. The fans come from a roughly two-hour radius and tailgate for hours. See old friends, picnic outdoors, etc. It is not just about the game, it is about the whole game experience. And although the students are there and vocal, they are a small segment of the actual attendees.

Thank you, Brother OPK. It has felt for years like preaching in the desert.

You are on the money regarding who really fills the stadiums, if they are full at all.

One of the biggest pitfalls in the process of developing the current day Duke football program and game day can be copying others rather than allowing and encouraging our own traditions.... or reviving our own traditions. Duke at one time was a national power in football. What would be the harm if our divine university were to share and promote our history? Strong programs and entities of all sorts celebrate the highlights of their histories.

To speak like Yogi, bless his soul, you can't lead by following everybody else.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-23-2015, 11:44 AM
You know what would boost student attendance at games? Saturday morning classes, just like in the old days. Students would have to get up early, and after classes could head over to the game. There may be time for a little partying.
Now you're really talking about culture change! The very idea of classes after Thursday might seem like cruel and unusual punishment as would required attendance.

nyesq83
09-23-2015, 11:47 AM
Whereas before we had so much room we could spread out our middle-aged spread on the griddles, er, um, I mean the aluminum benches,

the new blue bucket seats are small and unconfortable, with hot uncomfortable arm rests, and these new seats can cook your "wanker for saying this" in a matter of seconds.

It is too much to ask for them to install air- or mist-cooled standing room or comfy seating (and adult beverage service from handheld devices like at some pro games) for those of us with some age and weight gain but

if they did, more will come, I would bet.

They would never think to put a tiered, shaded multi-level beer garden in that almost-always empty northeast corner of the stands, or put in less, but larger comfortable non-heat-absorbing seats.

Just gotta keep winning, baby, and maybe they can spend more money to shrink the number of seats and charge the high-end luxury customers more to go to games.

In an era of shrinking crowds and growing distractions, we need to push the fans together (even by giving each seat more room) so we can be more vocal together.

My suggestions arise from observing the sometimes excessive distractions but sometimes spot-on fan-viewing spots implemented at Major League Baseball stadiums.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-23-2015, 11:59 AM
Whereas before we had so much room we could spread out our middle-aged spread on the griddles, er, um, I mean the aluminum benches,

the new blue bucket seats are small and unconfortable, with hot uncomfortable arm rests, and these new seats can cook your "wanker for saying this" in a matter of seconds.

It is too much to ask for them to install air- or mist-cooled standing room or comfy seating (and adult beverage service from handheld devices like at some pro games) for those of us with some age and weight gain but

if they did, more will come, I would bet.

They would never think to put a tiered, shaded multi-level beer garden in that almost-always empty northeast corner of the stands, or put in less, but larger comfortable non-heat-absorbing seats.

Just gotta keep winning, baby, and maybe they can spend more money to shrink the number of seats and charge the high-end luxury customers more to go to games.

In an era of shrinking crowds and growing distractions, we need to push the fans together (even by giving each seat more room) so we can be more vocal together.

My suggestions arise from observing the sometimes excessive distractions but sometimes spot-on fan-viewing spots implemented at Major League Baseball stadiums.

Your comment about the fancy blue seats is timely. By 2016 the west side bleachers are to be replaced with these seats. It would appear that those with oversight responsibilities may not recognize the influence of the plastic blue seats in contributing to the downward trend on the east side which tends to appear as a sea of empty blue seats compared to the west side. Granted temperature and direct sun are factors, but the blue seats are the constant in this equation of stadium design and branding.

jimsumner
09-23-2015, 12:29 PM
UNC also facing attendance woes

http://wncn.com/2015/09/21/attendance-woes-plague-fedora-heels/

wilson
09-23-2015, 12:30 PM
UNC also facing attendance woes

http://wncn.com/2015/09/21/attendance-woes-plague-fedora-heels/To be fair, phantom attendance is a time-honored tradition in chapel hill.

Indoor66
09-23-2015, 01:00 PM
To be fair, phantom attendance is a time-honored tradition in chapel hill.

Actually their count is made by those who attended phantom math courses - taught in Swahili. Accuracy (as well as attendance) was not required.

aimo
09-23-2015, 01:12 PM
Your comment about the fancy blue seats is timely. By 2016 the west side bleachers are to be replaced with these seats. It would appear that those with oversight responsibilities may not recognize the influence of the plastic blue seats in contributing to the downward trend on the east side which tends to appear as a sea of empty blue seats compared to the west side. Granted temperature and direct sun are factors, but the blue seats are the constant in this equation of stadium design and branding.

I've been complaining about the horrible new seats since last year. The powersthatbe do not care. And I don't think they'll ever blame low attendance on them. Plus, the first game, they sprayed them with some kind of Armor-all-like substance and people were showing up at the first-aid tent with itchy rashes on their arms and legs. So they're now hot, uncomfortable, AND toxic!

BigWayne
09-23-2015, 01:24 PM
Your comment about the fancy blue seats is timely. By 2016 the west side bleachers are to be replaced with these seats. It would appear that those with oversight responsibilities may not recognize the influence of the plastic blue seats in contributing to the downward trend on the east side which tends to appear as a sea of empty blue seats compared to the west side. Granted temperature and direct sun are factors, but the blue seats are the constant in this equation of stadium design and branding.

This sounds like a huge mistake. College football has the same issue regarding competing with widescreen TVs in the home that movie theaters do. What have the theaters done? They have switched over to nice comfortable seats among other things. One of the theaters in my town even has a wine bar in it to attract more customers. Having seats with backs is a good idea vs. bleachers, but not if they reduce leg room and hip room. Average height has gone up quite a lot since the stadium was built and there are no shortage of studies showing people are not getting any skinnier in the US.

jimsumner
09-23-2015, 02:22 PM
Average height has gone up quite a lot since the stadium was built and there are no shortage of studies showing people are not getting any skinnier in the US.

That's putting it gently. :)

AustinDevil
09-23-2015, 02:47 PM
One of the nice things about the Duke games is that I rarely if EVER see boorish behavior in the stadium. Would in game beer sales change that? I'm not sure... but I know that other sporting events I attend where beer is sold, I usually see and hear much more... eh, "less than family friendly" behavior. Is all that alcohol related.... probably not, but I am sure a lot of it is.

My guess is that selling beer would have a very minimal impact on attendance at all. I just can't imagine that there is a significant population of fans out there that are currently saying "I'd go to the Duke game tomorrow if I could have a beer there"...

I do think that there are plenty of current attending fans who would enjoy beer at the games, but they are already attending... so not sure of the net gain. Maybe a marketing study to gauge the impact (cost - benefit)?

The issue to me is pretty simple. Duke football is battling decades of malaise and a bad reputation. I believe the current trends of WINNING (being first and foremost), stadium seating improvements, marketing, etc.. that are in place will move the attendance meter, but not overnight.

I can tell you that in my personal experience, that I lost interest in Duke FB years ago when it was clear to me that the University had little interest in fielding a competitive team. I refused to invest emotionally or financially in program that was just going through the motions. Even when the team was improving recently, I didn't pay much attention, feeling that it to would pass. Then I went to the Texas AM game in Atlanta. I knew then that Duke FB had committed to excellence, so I purchased season tickets, and now drive 3 hours to see home games.

If the University stays committed to football, I believe the fan base and attendance will continue to grow, but it will take several years to overcome the reputation that was built over the past decades, that Duke FB isn't worth the time. Duke FB is worth the time! Tell your friends!!

This is an entirely reasonable viewpoint, and there's a lot on which I do not disagree. Here is where I am coming from: Duke has lots of inherent disadvantages relating to attendance, so Duke needs to maximize its opportunity to recruit and retain fans. This means improvements not just to the stadium structure, but to
* Parking;
* Food choices and availability;
* Ancillary activities for kids, and for tailgating;
* Reliable, fast wifi;
* Ingress/egress;
* Merchandising; and
* Yes, beer sales, which speaking only of places where I have attended games in the last two seasons, haven't turned SMU, Houston, Tulane, and Texas games into alcohol-soaked drunk fights (anymore than they were already).

I flew from Austin to Durham for the UNC game last fall, my first Duke home football game in two decades (I've also attended the Chik Fil A Bowl and the Tulane road game). Duke has a *lot* of opportunity to improve all of the aspects I'm talking about in the list above, and each of them will matter in attracting and retaining fans.

Kimist
09-23-2015, 03:10 PM
Now you're really talking about culture change! The very idea of classes after Thursday might seem like cruel and unusual punishment as would required attendance.

I had numerous MWF classes at Duke, and a few TThS. Fortunately, some of those later turned into MW or TTh as freshman year fell deeper into the history books.

Worst imaginable: My roommate had freshman calculus on a TThS schedule, and his professor would often give "big" exams. . .on Saturday morning. "Joe" was an Angier B. Duke scholar, so he had to keep good grades, but it often was a challenge finding a suitable study location on Friday night of big "football weekends." (Yeah, we had those too. . .;))

k

devildeac
09-23-2015, 03:12 PM
UNC also facing attendance woes

http://wncn.com/2015/09/21/attendance-woes-plague-fedora-heels/


To be fair, phantom attendance is a time-honored tradition in chapel hill.

But, but, but, there were probably many, many current and former students in their Saturday make-up-their-degree classes that day:rolleyes:.

(and if you believe that, call me about that Arizona swampland I have for sale...)

devildeac
09-23-2015, 03:16 PM
That's putting it gently. :)


5515

OldPhiKap
09-23-2015, 03:33 PM
This is an entirely reasonable viewpoint, and there's a lot on which I do not disagree. Here is where I am coming from: Duke has lots of inherent disadvantages relating to attendance, so Duke needs to maximize its opportunity to recruit and retain fans. This means improvements not just to the stadium structure, but to
* Parking;
* Food choices and availability;
* Ancillary activities for kids, and for tailgating;
* Reliable, fast wifi;
* Ingress/egress;
* Merchandising; and
* Yes, beer sales, which speaking only of places where I have attended games in the last two seasons, haven't turned SMU, Houston, Tulane, and Texas games into alcohol-soaked drunk fights (anymore than they were already).

I flew from Austin to Durham for the UNC game last fall, my first Duke home football game in two decades (I've also attended the Chik Fil A Bowl and the Tulane road game). Duke has a *lot* of opportunity to improve all of the aspects I'm talking about in the list above, and each of them will matter in attracting and retaining fans.

The Peach-fil-A and Sun Bowls are two great examples of university-organized pregame events that were done exceptionally well. Certainly grew a lot from the two prior bowls I attended (Hall-of-Fame or whatever it was called in Tampa the Goldsmith year, and then the Belk Bowl). Again, part of the whole thing is not just the game -- it's the experience package that makes you want to drive two hours, fight parking, and then sit in conditions that are not always as comfortable as your easy chair with the beer cooler next to you.

The brief time I have been able to tailgate with some of the posters on this board have also been great, as well as tailgating with old friends and seeing games with family in the area. But you need a place to have those gatherings, and I understand them to be difficult to obtain or maneuver.

I don't know what kind of pregame atmosphere Notre Dame has (I would imagine it to be robust), but Kevin White should have some ideas and I hope the administration is listening to and encouraging his input on the issue.

Native
09-23-2015, 06:33 PM
I think the time is ripe for a more broad-based, concerted effort to stimulate student tailgating. I was an undergrad during years when a) tailgating was flat-out debaucherous, and b) the team was flat-out terrible (basically, the Franks/Roof era). In my mind, there's a direct correlation between those two things. The football game happening over yonder was a good excuse to hang out in the parking lot and get hammered, and the abysmal state of the program was a good excuse for most students not to bother ever going into the stadium. Because many people did nothing but stand in an asphalt parking lot drinking, the scene lent itself quite well to widespread, severe intoxication, eventually leading to the death of the early-'00s "Tailgate" phenomenon.
Now that there's some momentum and excitement surrounding the program, it seems that students could be much more easily enticed to enjoy some parking lot beverages and then go into Wallace Wade to enjoy the game. I know there have been some (ongoing) conversations about reintroducing student tailgating, but it seems to me that many of those efforts have been halfhearted and that the events on the whole feel forced (I could be wrong; these are my impressions gleaned from recent Chronicle coverage of the process, and from this board).
I know that student activities like this that are centered around alcohol-heavy environments are a very delicate matter, but my read from afar is that more could be done to stimulate student buy-in on game day.

It feels forced because there's a mismatch between the expectations of the administration and the expectations of the students.

Reinvigorating the game day atmosphere will take quite the effort. The administration is absolutely against anything that could involve the possibility of students drinking en masse on campus, even if it's done in a safe and responsible manner. They don't trust the students, and frankly, why should they? Given the fact that Duke's student body can't go a semester without having something get blown out of proportion — not to mention the behavioral incidents that have received national attention — it's hard to see why the students should get any rope. The administration wants to be able to snap their fingers and say, "Look! A new tradition! What fun!" and have it perfectly line up with their concerns, but that's not how traditions get started. They happen organically.

And on the flip side, the selective living groups — fraternities, to be specific — that hold a very fair share of the social clout on campus have zero incentive to stop throwing their events off campus every weekend. Tailgate didn't die — it moved off campus away from the prying eyes of the administration, and while the classes who experienced it firsthand are long gone, their mythologizing of it remains a point of unhealthily high expectations for students with regard to the social scene on campus. In turn, this makes the selective events more exclusive and desirable to a student body that is by and large obsessed with all things exclusive and desirable, even if they won't admit it all the time. Students don't feel like they have the leeway on campus to risk starting a new tradition, and their expectations are so high that what students would want to start isn't realistic by anyone's standards, least of all those of the folks in the Allen Building.

For lack of a better term, you have a Cold War-style stalemate between the administration and the selective groups on campus, none of which has any incentive to change its current stance. This is a tangible root of the problem that no amount of on-field success will overcome, save for a level of extreme success similar to what the basketball team has achieved.

sagegrouse
09-23-2015, 07:09 PM
And on the flip side, the selective living groups — fraternities, to be specific — that hold a very fair share of the social clout on campus have zero incentive to stop throwing their events off campus every weekend. Tailgate didn't die — it moved off campus away from the prying eyes of the administration, and while the classes who experienced it firsthand are long gone, their mythologizing of it remains a point of unhealthily high expectations for students with regard to the social scene on campus. In turn, this makes the selective events more exclusive and desirable to a student body that is by and large obsessed with all things exclusive and desirable, even if they won't admit it all the time. Students don't feel like they have the leeway on campus to risk starting a new tradition, and their expectations are so high that what students would want to start isn't realistic by anyone's standards, least of all those of the folks in the Allen Building.

.

FWIW, back in the day, the only times our group had on-campus parties were when we ran out of money and couldn't afford to rent a cabin outside of town.

In later eras, like the '90s, parties seemed to be on campus and -- by reg or fiat -- had to be open to all.

Pghdukie
09-23-2015, 07:15 PM
The Pgh Pirates remind me an awful lot of Duke. Pirates were the laughing stock of mlb, couldn't win for years. Attendance was approx 10,000 per game. Tix were close to nothing. They begged people to go. Now Pirates are winning, 30,000 fans show up paying a nice buck for tix and generating enthusiasm throughout the city

Aladuke
09-23-2015, 07:42 PM
I have been a season ticket holder with 40 yard line seats at Auburn for 25 years, and this year I did not renew. While the price of two tickets and the seating priority has risen to over $2300 per year in my section, that was not the reason I gave up the seats. It was just so uncomfortable sitting on a 14 inch seat with an 18 inch rear, in a row full of many same-sized individuals. While that may not be the problem at Duke, I was the last of a 10 person group to walk away for the same reason.

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest. As many others have stated, Duke is not alone in attendance shortfalls. Surveys at Auburn over the last few years always pointed to inadequate wifi as the # 1 issue fans had with the gameday experience. Parking, food, restrooms, and the other issues outlined for improvement upstream were also high on the list, but wifi and improved scoreboard/videoboard were by far the largest complaints. That never occurred to me as a 64 year old man. I just came to watch the game. However, sitting sideways in a $2300 seat was the last straw.

I still will make the 4 hour drive to Auburn to tailgate with my friends for every conference game and most games not involving a directional school. I would like to direct you to a tailgating website... Tailgateguys.com. They handle our tailgate, and have for the last 7 years. This was a creation of two Auburn students who saw the opportunity to utilize available space adjacent to the stadium and sold their plan to the administration; an administration that was desperately trying to control access to the campus on gameday without alienating the fanbase. What they created is an excellent use of space, and they have taken off like gangbusters. They have sold their idea to Florida, Texas, Texas A&M, Georgia Tech, the Georgia Dome, and probably more sites. We have a 20X20 tent with 3 tables, chairs, coolers, plates and utensils set up and broken down every week. There is a drop off system to take your stuff to and from the tailgate. We bring our own TV and satellite dish and generator, and usually have a tent full outside the stadium during the game, and there are probably 100 other tents doing the same thing. It's expensive, but we have 14 couples in the group and share the cost. We are less than 50 yards from the stadium, and we couldn't be happier. Look at the pictures on the website and see how orderly things look. We sometimes have 100 people drop by on and off during the day. If you remember the 2013 Iron Bowl, the Kick six game, ESPN Gameday set up right in the middle of our area.

This may not be what you are looking for, but it's working on several campuses. No, I'm not involved with the company, although I will say that I was the very first customer that they had.

4Gen
09-23-2015, 07:52 PM
My contribution. Every year I buy the four season tix for about $350.00. For four or five games, I use two, and the rest I give away. I'm always sure to give the tix away to people who are thrilled to get them. I've turned a few agnostic football fans into hardy Duke fans. It's rewarding.

Ima Facultiwyfe
09-23-2015, 08:19 PM
because i needed anothe reason not to be a fan of the current administration!

Ditto. Organic wellsprings of enthusiasm are squelched in infancy. If there weren't already a K-ville it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to start one. Now it's too big and too famous to fail.

The pitiful thing they are micromanaging and calling Devilgate for students (held way over on the quad and far enough away from the action to be certain it has nothing to do with the game) will be a colossal failure. It won't be responsible for bringing a single student into WW. Students belong on Blue Devil Alley along with the rest of us. We'd love the chance to get to know more of them.

.....and yes, the concessions in both WW and Cameron are just plain embarrassing.

Love, Ima

wilson
09-23-2015, 09:15 PM
It feels forced because there's a mismatch between the expectations of the administration and the expectations of the students.

Reinvigorating the game day atmosphere will take quite the effort. The administration is absolutely against anything that could involve the possibility of students drinking en masse on campus, even if it's done in a safe and responsible manner. They don't trust the students, and frankly, why should they? Given the fact that Duke's student body can't go a semester without having something get blown out of proportion — not to mention the behavioral incidents that have received national attention — it's hard to see why the students should get any rope. The administration wants to be able to snap their fingers and say, "Look! A new tradition! What fun!" and have it perfectly line up with their concerns, but that's not how traditions get started. They happen organically.

And on the flip side, the selective living groups — fraternities, to be specific — that hold a very fair share of the social clout on campus have zero incentive to stop throwing their events off campus every weekend. Tailgate didn't die — it moved off campus away from the prying eyes of the administration, and while the classes who experienced it firsthand are long gone, their mythologizing of it remains a point of unhealthily high expectations for students with regard to the social scene on campus. In turn, this makes the selective events more exclusive and desirable to a student body that is by and large obsessed with all things exclusive and desirable, even if they won't admit it all the time. Students don't feel like they have the leeway on campus to risk starting a new tradition, and their expectations are so high that what students would want to start isn't realistic by anyone's standards, least of all those of the folks in the Allen Building.

For lack of a better term, you have a Cold War-style stalemate between the administration and the selective groups on campus, none of which has any incentive to change its current stance. This is a tangible root of the problem that no amount of on-field success will overcome, save for a level of extreme success similar to what the basketball team has achieved.This is an outstanding explanation of the current campus social scene. I wholeheartedly agree with your point that traditions can't just be created from whole cloth, and I also agree that it's completely understandable that the Duke administration would be loath to grant the student body any alcohol-related leeway.
As for the attitudes of the undergrads, sounds like things haven't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Your point about exclusivity (real or imagined) sounds especially familiar from the early '00s.
Great post.

dukelifer
09-23-2015, 09:59 PM
The Peach-fil-A and Sun Bowls are two great examples of university-organized pregame events that were done exceptionally well. Certainly grew a lot from the two prior bowls I attended (Hall-of-Fame or whatever it was called in Tampa the Goldsmith year, and then the Belk Bowl). Again, part of the whole thing is not just the game -- it's the experience package that makes you want to drive two hours, fight parking, and then sit in conditions that are not always as comfortable as your easy chair with the beer cooler next to you.

The brief time I have been able to tailgate with some of the posters on this board have also been great, as well as tailgating with old friends and seeing games with family in the area. But you need a place to have those gatherings, and I understand them to be difficult to obtain or maneuver.

I don't know what kind of pregame atmosphere Notre Dame has (I would imagine it to be robust), but Kevin White should have some ideas and I hope the administration is listening to and encouraging his input on the issue.
There are a lot of differences between Notre Dame and this part of NC when it comes to football. Notre Dame also has a huge national following from folks who never went to Notre Dame. There once was a time when Football was king at Duke- but it will need to be consistently excellent - not just good - for that to happen again. The basketball team has redefined excellence for a revenue generating sports program at Duke. That will be hard to match.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-23-2015, 11:29 PM
The Peach-fil-A and Sun Bowls are two great examples of university-organized pregame events that were done exceptionally well. Certainly grew a lot from the two prior bowls I attended (Hall-of-Fame or whatever it was called in Tampa the Goldsmith year, and then the Belk Bowl). Again, part of the whole thing is not just the game -- it's the experience package that makes you want to drive two hours, fight parking, and then sit in conditions that are not always as comfortable as your easy chair with the beer cooler next to you.

The brief time I have been able to tailgate with some of the posters on this board have also been great, as well as tailgating with old friends and seeing games with family in the area. But you need a place to have those gatherings, and I understand them to be difficult to obtain or maneuver.

I don't know what kind of pregame atmosphere Notre Dame has (I would imagine it to be robust), but Kevin White should have some ideas and I hope the administration is listening to and encouraging his input on the issue.

On the matter of who had the ideas to change game day experience, it wasn't Kevin White who pushed for a tailgate village in the Card Gym Lot. It was one David Cutcliffe soon after he arrived, back when he was helping sell tickets, meeting with students over Cokes and pushing us to get a decent indoor practice facility and a practice field that is regulation size. It's hard to think back to the time when the practice field was about 3/4 of regulation size. That insufficient asset symbolizes the sorry state of Duke's stewardship of football. Coach Cutcliffe had to see some serious potential to take on such a mess.... but look where we are today!

orrnot
09-24-2015, 12:06 AM
* Parking;
* Food choices and availability;
* Ancillary activities for kids, and for tailgating;
* Reliable, fast wifi;
* Ingress/egress;
* Merchandising; and
* Yes, beer sales, which speaking only of places where I have attended games in the last two seasons, haven't turned SMU, Houston, Tulane, and Texas games into alcohol-soaked drunk fights (anymore than they were already).


Keep in mind that the construction of the 751 parking garage and the updates to the concourse (concessions, gates, restrooms) should improve all of these issues--save beer sales--and we've heard that wifi/cell upgrades are in the offing. Next time you're in Cameron, take a look at the quantity and variety of interesting antennae that have appeared over the last year. I'm hopeful Wade will get similar attentions for 2016. I wonder if alcohol will be available INSIDE the new press box building. It's hard to imagine those suites without it. Perhaps if you want to drink up you'll need to pay up.

BigWayne
09-24-2015, 01:15 AM
I wonder if alcohol will be available INSIDE the new press box building. It's hard to imagine those suites without it. Perhaps if you want to drink up you'll need to pay up.
Kevin White has already stated they will serve alcohol in the suites.

AustinDevil
09-24-2015, 08:07 AM
I wonder if alcohol will be available INSIDE the new press box building. It's hard to imagine those suites without it. Perhaps if you want to drink up you'll need to pay up.

As Big Wayne already replied, I've heard this will be the case, as it was at Texas, Houston, and SMU in their club-level $$$ areas before the last two years. It does nothing for recruiting and retaining casual fans. And just for the record, this isn't self-interest; as a 45-year-old gay athlete, for each of those reasons I never drink beer anymore.

uh_no
09-24-2015, 09:47 AM
As Big Wayne already replied, I've heard this will be the case, as it was at Texas, Houston, and SMU in their club-level $$$ areas before the last two years. It does nothing for recruiting and retaining casual fans. And just for the record, this isn't self-interest; as a 45-year-old gay athlete, for each of those reasons I never drink beer anymore.

whats does being 45, gay, or an athlete have to do with drinking beer?

AustinDevil
09-24-2015, 03:15 PM
whats does being 45, gay, or an athlete have to do with drinking beer?

Beer is, IMHO, behind only bread in being the worst thing in which I might partake in terms of maintaining BMI, body fat %, and cardiovascular performance at levels where I want them. And except for bears (some of my best friends are bears), you won't find many gay men over 40 who drink much beer, for similar (mainly BMI) reasons.

GopherBlue
09-24-2015, 04:55 PM
My Duke FB game-day experience wish list:

1. craft beer garden - local beers, reasonable cost, perhaps a rotation of guest breweries
2. evening games only early in the season, afternoon games ok later in fall (yeah, I know, this is determined by TV, but I can wish...)
3. improve wifi/cellular services in WW

IMO the new arm-rest and back seats are a big improvement over the previous benches, and definitely increase the likelihood that I will attend more games. 2 thumbs up on the rest of the WW stadium renovations so far!

CDu
09-25-2015, 08:36 AM
I agree with those that have said that the only sustainable cure to the attendance problem will be long-term success. That may take years, so hopefully Cutcliffe is around for a while!

BigWayne
01-20-2016, 07:19 PM
I asked about beer today. A senior staffer confirmed that there are no state or ACC prohibitions but that "the administration won't let us" sell beer.

No current effort to change that.

NCAA is changing it up at the CWS. (http://www.usnews.com/news/sports/articles/2016-01-20/beer-wine-to-be-sold-for-1st-time-at-college-world-series)

From the article:
"Alcohol sales are becoming more common in college sports. The NCAA said schools that sell alcohol at events report a decline in alcohol-related incidents in their venues.

"Theories suggest that making alcohol available in the stadium prevents incidents of binge drinking before events and discourages people from attempting to bring outside alcohol into the venue," the NCAA said."

uh_no
01-20-2016, 07:53 PM
NCAA is changing it up at the CWS. (http://www.usnews.com/news/sports/articles/2016-01-20/beer-wine-to-be-sold-for-1st-time-at-college-world-series)

From the article:
"Alcohol sales are becoming more common in college sports. The NCAA said schools that sell alcohol at events report a decline in alcohol-related incidents in their venues.

"Theories suggest that making alcohol available in the stadium prevents incidents of binge drinking before events and discourages people from attempting to bring outside alcohol into the venue," the NCAA said."
I can't say i'm surprised at the result....most data I've seen indicates that restricting alcohol pushes it into the shadows, where people are more likely to binge drink. One of the things I support Mr. Brodhead on is his support of initiatives to loosen alcohol restrictions on campus. Let's be honest, people are going to do it anyway....why not provide a safe way for people to do it?

Further....REVENUE! I know I'd spend far more at games (that i'm not working...especially football) if I could buy a beer. Even at 8 bucks or whatever obscene price.

OZ
01-20-2016, 09:23 PM
I agree with those that have said that the only sustainable cure to the attendance problem will be long-term success. That may take years, so hopefully Cutcliffe is around for a while!

I agree. If we win consistently over the long term, we will build a fan base.
Years ago, I could get tickets to any Duke game in Cameron. The team was pretty bad and the place was never full. Today, we continue to set records for sellouts and beer is not sold. I regularly attend Panther games. Beer has always been sold and until recently getting a ticket was no problem.
One thing beer sales does do is keep an annoying steady stream of people walking in and out going back for another (and/or to the rest room).
I really don't care what they sell; if you don't win consistently - with most games televised - the people are not going to show.

duke blue brewcrew
01-21-2016, 10:50 AM
I agree. If we win consistently over the long term, we will build a fan base.
Years ago, I could get tickets to any Duke game in Cameron. The team was pretty bad and the place was never full. Today, we continue to set records for sellouts and beer is not sold. I regularly attend Panther games. Beer has always been sold and until recently getting a ticket was no problem.
One thing beer sales does do is keep an annoying steady stream of people walking in and out going back for another (and/or to the rest room).
I really don't care what they sell; if you don't win consistently - with most games televised - the people are not going to show.

I tend to agree. It boils down to the product Duke is putting on the field, not the products for sale in the concession stands. The product on the field, as we all know, is getting much better. It would be interesting to see attendance numbers for football during the Roof era, and now under Coach Cut. I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve those numbers, but if I had to guess, they are trending (even if only moderately) in the right direction. As football talent & results continue to improve and become more consistent, so will attendance.

AustinDevil
01-21-2016, 01:40 PM
I tend to agree. It boils down to the product Duke is putting on the field, not the products for sale in the concession stands. The product on the field, as we all know, is getting much better. It would be interesting to see attendance numbers for football during the Roof era, and now under Coach Cut. I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve those numbers, but if I had to guess, they are trending (even if only moderately) in the right direction. As football talent & results continue to improve and become more consistent, so will attendance.

For Duke alumni who are invested in the school, sure, maybe it does boil down to the quality of the football. It does for me, as I've been crazy enough to fly to Durham from Texas for football games, and I'm not dissuaded by the crappy concessions, lack of wifi, sad little tent selling Duke gear, etc. etc. But we're not talking about me, or about you. If we are consistently going to get crowds into the 30,000+ range, then we are by definition talking about Duke trying to be successful in competing for *casual fans* who have lots of other competition for their limited entertainment dollars. And I wholly, utterly disagree with you that they will come for good football even if the concessions, and everything else, are meh or worse.

Indoor66
01-21-2016, 02:37 PM
Keep winning the games and the butts will be in the seats. Simple plan, hard to do.

Ranidad
01-21-2016, 03:29 PM
For Duke alumni who are invested in the school, sure, maybe it does boil down to the quality of the football. It does for me, as I've been crazy enough to fly to Durham from Texas for football games, and I'm not dissuaded by the crappy concessions, lack of wifi, sad little tent selling Duke gear, etc. etc. But we're not talking about me, or about you. If we are consistently going to get crowds into the 30,000+ range, then we are by definition talking about Duke trying to be successful in competing for *casual fans* who have lots of other competition for their limited entertainment dollars. And I wholly, utterly disagree with you that they will come for good football even if the concessions, and everything else, are meh or worse.

Ultimately, Duke needs to successfully appeal to several different audiences in order to average 30,000+:

1) Alums within driving distance (<= 4 hours)
2) Students
3) "very" local folks without a Duke affiliation (<= 20 minute drive from WW)
4) Triangle residents without an affiliation

Alums - as you've stated are much more engaged when the team competes well. I attended grad school in Ann Arbor and even in 2 short years a connection was created. I have travelled from Chicago to attend one Michigan game now for about 25 years plus a bowl game or two. There is no alcohol sold in the stadium at Michigan. If it was not a feasible weekend drive then that would not have happened as regularly. Duke's smaller alumni base within driving distance (compared to Power 5 public institutions) probably means that this group alone cannot be counted on for 25,000+ per game.

Students - the student population simply isn't large enough to be the core of a crowd that size. However, student attendance is important not only to the game atmosphere but also to developing a future base of alums who have a connection to Duke football (as happened with me in Ann Arbor). For this group WiFi would be THE thing to address.

"Very" local folks w/o affiliation - I have lived within 2 miles of Northwestern's stadium for 20+ years and seen NU football return to respectability, renovate the stadium, improve horribly limited concessions, etc.. They face a similar situation to Duke (smaller enrollment and a smaller widely dispersed alumni base) and struggle to fill the stadium with anything other than a majority of opposing fans. However, there are many families in my community who buy season ticket packages or go to several games a season even though no one attended or works at NU. These folks are really budget and atmosphere dependent consumers and have the games on their calendars and attend when it fits into their schedule more than adjusting their schedules based on the games.

Regional (Triangle) folks w/o affiliation - These are more of the casual fans and are a tough sell for season tickets unless there is a tradition around the program which takes time and includes both a competitive team and solid amenities. Developing a Duke connection with this group is probably the key to consistent Duke-based crowds of 30,000+ in today's market. However, beer sales inside the stadium are not the golden ticket.

The biggest problem for college football attendance everywhere today, in my opinion, is lack of knowledge about kickoff times. I am unlikely to plan on attending games at NU (where I have no affiliation) because kickoff isn't locked until 10-14 days before the game. I have no way to plan around a local game without knowing if it is at Noon, 3:30, 6:00, or something else. It is even tough for a game in Ann Arbor when I don't know if I need a place to stay on Friday night (Noon kickoff) or Saturday night (other times). Don't get me started on weeknight games. That is all because television revenue is more important than gate/concession revenue for almost every program.

Enough ranting... my point is that Duke needs to appeal to a broad range of interests in order to put 30,000+ people in the stands consistently.

tux
01-21-2016, 03:50 PM
Ultimately, Duke needs to successfully appeal to several different audiences in order to average 30,000+:

1) Alums within driving distance (<= 4 hours)
2) Students
3) "very" local folks without a Duke affiliation (<= 20 minute drive from WW)
4) Triangle residents without an affiliation

Alums - as you've stated are much more engaged when the team competes well. I attended grad school in Ann Arbor and even in 2 short years a connection was created. I have travelled from Chicago to attend one Michigan game now for about 25 years plus a bowl game or two. There is no alcohol sold in the stadium at Michigan. If it was not a feasible weekend drive then that would not have happened as regularly. Duke's smaller alumni base within driving distance (compared to Power 5 public institutions) probably means that this group alone cannot be counted on for 25,000+ per game.

Students - the student population simply isn't large enough to be the core of a crowd that size. However, student attendance is important not only to the game atmosphere but also to developing a future base of alums who have a connection to Duke football (as happened with me in Ann Arbor). For this group WiFi would be THE thing to address.

"Very" local folks w/o affiliation - I have lived within 2 miles of Northwestern's stadium for 20+ years and seen NU football return to respectability, renovate the stadium, improve horribly limited concessions, etc.. They face a similar situation to Duke (smaller enrollment and a smaller widely dispersed alumni base) and struggle to fill the stadium with anything other than a majority of opposing fans. However, there are many families in my community who buy season ticket packages or go to several games a season even though no one attended or works at NU. These folks are really budget and atmosphere dependent consumers and have the games on their calendars and attend when it fits into their schedule more than adjusting their schedules based on the games.

Regional (Triangle) folks w/o affiliation - These are more of the casual fans and are a tough sell for season tickets unless there is a tradition around the program which takes time and includes both a competitive team and solid amenities. Developing a Duke connection with this group is probably the key to consistent Duke-based crowds of 30,000+ in today's market. However, beer sales inside the stadium are not the golden ticket.

The biggest problem for college football attendance everywhere today, in my opinion, is lack of knowledge about kickoff times. I am unlikely to plan on attending games at NU (where I have no affiliation) because kickoff isn't locked until 10-14 days before the game. I have no way to plan around a local game without knowing if it is at Noon, 3:30, 6:00, or something else. It is even tough for a game in Ann Arbor when I don't know if I need a place to stay on Friday night (Noon kickoff) or Saturday night (other times). Don't get me started on weeknight games. That is all because television revenue is more important than gate/concession revenue for almost every program.

Enough ranting... my point is that Duke needs to appeal to a broad range of interests in order to put 30,000+ people in the stands consistently.


Excellent points. I especially agree with your point about kick-off times. I think sports, in general, have become too focused on their TV audience at the expense of the fans in attendance. We all understand why that is. But we're also seeing a shift in TV viewing habits, as younger folks are cutting the cord or never getting a cord, so it will be interesting to see how things shake out in the years ahead. I would like some balanced restored; otherwise, we'll end up in a future where teams play in empty stadiums broadcast to a bunch of people watching on their phones...

One note on Duke concessions. I've seldom encountered great concessions at a sporting event. Was just recently at a nice NFL stadium and had a $10 burger that was pretty much a hockey puck in a cold bun. I actually like the "carnival" atmosphere at Duke games, where outside vendors replace the more generic concession fare. I'm not saying it's the greatest food in the world, but I don't think of Duke football games as having awful options for food...

Finally, regarding casual fans. It's really, really hard to make a football game fun for someone who doesn't have much of a rooting interest. You may get folks coming for a single game --- just to check it off some list --- but it's just another butt in a seat (or on a bleacher). They're not going to be into the game in any real way. I guess a full stadium would be great, but I just don't see Duke ever pulling in enough non-fans to make a huge dent.

budwom
01-21-2016, 03:59 PM
The lack of info on kickoff times is annoying and can hurt attendance.

What is significantly worse about kickoff times is that Duke no longer has control, it's all up to ESPN.
Hence we get horrific September noon games, which is just awful for attendance...I've been to a bunch of
them, and when the temp is 85+, they just completely suck, no other way to put it.

If September games were played in the early evening, say 6pm, it would be great for tailgating, and
temps in the stadium at game time would be temperate. (in days of olde, essentially all september games
were played at night).

I come a long way to see most of our home games, but to be frank, I don't blame a lot of casual fans one bit
if they choose to stay home and watch the games on TV rather than swelter in 90 degree, sun drenched heat.
It's physically unpleasant and completely unnecessary. But ESPN distributes the cash, so we're at their mercy (or lack thereof).

DU82
01-21-2016, 07:59 PM
The lack of info on kickoff times is annoying and can hurt attendance.

What is significantly worse about kickoff times is that Duke no longer has control, it's all up to ESPN.
Hence we get horrific September noon games, which is just awful for attendance...I've been to a bunch of
them, and when the temp is 85+, they just completely suck, no other way to put it.

If September games were played in the early evening, say 6pm, it would be great for tailgating, and
temps in the stadium at game time would be temperate. (in days of olde, essentially all september games
were played at night).

I come a long way to see most of our home games, but to be frank, I don't blame a lot of casual fans one bit
if they choose to stay home and watch the games on TV rather than swelter in 90 degree, sun drenched heat.
It's physically unpleasant and completely unnecessary. But ESPN distributes the cash, so we're at their mercy (or lack thereof).

Depends on what you call "days of olde". Since there weren't permanent lights before 1984, almost all games had a 1:30 or 2PM kickoff in September. Almost fainted once on the field carrying a bass drum. (Was easier when I carried a clarinet.)

Native
01-21-2016, 08:11 PM
Students - the student population simply isn't large enough to be the core of a crowd that size. However, student attendance is important not only to the game atmosphere but also to developing a future base of alums who have a connection to Duke football (as happened with me in Ann Arbor). For this group WiFi would be THE thing to address.

Nope. The thing to address is the student body's relationship with the administration and the social culture on campus, which is entirely self-centered around exclusivity. Most students don't go to Duke football games because there's no social capital to be gained from doing so when fraternities are all throwing off-campus events at the same time. The others who don't see it as a meaningless distraction from [academics/research/insert side project or passion here].

Most Duke students in their heart of hearts believe either...

A) the whole college-is-supposed-to-be-the-best-four-years-of-your-life-so-you-have-to-be-socially-dominant-and-drink-copious-amounts-of-alcohol-and-make-your-lifelong-friends-and-suck-every-last-drop-of-good-times-out-of-it-before-adulthood-strikes thing peddled by popular culture, or
B) the whole if-you-don't-figure-out-your-life-passion-during-college-you'll-be-lost-forever-and-will-never-make-enough-money-or-be-successful-enough-to-have-a-happy-life-and-provide-for-your-family thing peddled by popular culture or their personal circumstances.

Despite what you might think, my generation can deal for a few hours without WiFi.

-jk
01-21-2016, 09:49 PM
Nope. The thing to address is the student body's relationship with the administration and the social culture on campus, which is entirely self-centered around exclusivity. Most students don't go to Duke football games because there's no social capital to be gained from doing so when fraternities are all throwing off-campus events at the same time. The others who don't see it as a meaningless distraction from [academics/research/insert side project or passion here].

Most Duke students in their heart of hearts believe either...

A) the whole college-is-supposed-to-be-the-best-four-years-of-your-life-so-you-have-to-be-socially-dominant-and-drink-copious-amounts-of-alcohol-and-make-your-lifelong-friends-and-suck-every-last-drop-of-good-times-out-of-it-before-adulthood-strikes thing peddled by popular culture, or
B) the whole if-you-don't-figure-out-your-life-passion-during-college-you'll-be-lost-forever-and-will-never-make-enough-money-or-be-successful-enough-to-have-a-happy-life-and-provide-for-your-family thing peddled by popular culture or their personal circumstances.

Despite what you might think, my generation can deal for a few hours without WiFi.

I've heard they're wiring Wade with WiFi...

-jk

OldPhiKap
01-21-2016, 10:24 PM
Nope. The thing to address is the student body's relationship with the administration and the social culture on campus, which is entirely self-centered around exclusivity. Most students don't go to Duke football games because there's no social capital to be gained from doing so when fraternities are all throwing off-campus events at the same time. The others who don't see it as a meaningless distraction from [academics/research/insert side project or passion here].

Most Duke students in their heart of hearts believe either...

A) the whole college-is-supposed-to-be-the-best-four-years-of-your-life-so-you-have-to-be-socially-dominant-and-drink-copious-amounts-of-alcohol-and-make-your-lifelong-friends-and-suck-every-last-drop-of-good-times-out-of-it-before-adulthood-strikes thing peddled by popular culture, or
B) the whole if-you-don't-figure-out-your-life-passion-during-college-you'll-be-lost-forever-and-will-never-make-enough-money-or-be-successful-enough-to-have-a-happy-life-and-provide-for-your-family thing peddled by popular culture or their personal circumstances.

Despite what you might think, my generation can deal for a few hours without WiFi.

Thanks, Native. As an alum who sees you court-side consistantly, I appreciate your input.

As to option one, many schools are able to focus that on football too. Like, every SEC school. That would not seem inconsistent with what we all would liike to see in Wally Wade if there was a unified effort. And again, beer sales would help.

As to option two, well -- I imagine they don't go to Cameron often either. Which is how tickets are available downstairs to alums like me. I cannot really rag on kids who are so serious that they don't have time for trivialities like school sports. But Stanford and Notre Dame get folks to turn out despite them, so -- have fun in Perkins.

Dukerulz
01-22-2016, 12:18 PM
We could always set up a bogus curriculum whereas athletes are entitled to receive:

Fake classes with A's for the semester
A Wheels for Heels ride
Party house owned by bb coach and hosted by ex-bb player
Reduced requirements for graduation based on ADHD or LD diagnosis with PED's provided for consumption or sale

We should be able to attract the best athletes anywhere and create a team so powerful that bandwagon fans would come in droves. Wait, I never did like a copycat.

dpslaw
01-22-2016, 12:26 PM
I cannot really rag on kids who are so serious that they don't have time for trivialities like school sports. But Stanford and Notre Dame get folks to turn out despite them, so -- have fun in Perkins.

I'll give you Notre Dame, but Stanford, ... not so much.

And Native is now a fellow alum, if I am not mistaken.

BigWayne
01-22-2016, 01:15 PM
I tend to agree. It boils down to the product Duke is putting on the field, not the products for sale in the concession stands. The product on the field, as we all know, is getting much better. It would be interesting to see attendance numbers for football during the Roof era, and now under Coach Cut. I'm sure there is plenty of room to improve those numbers, but if I had to guess, they are trending (even if only moderately) in the right direction. As football talent & results continue to improve and become more consistent, so will attendance.
I don't disagree. However, building a winning football program under the constraints Duke faces is a difficult task. Opening up a concession stand that sells beer is a monumentally more simple task. While the raw score difference in attendance would be smaller than having a dominant conference championship football team, the return on investment is probably as good or better.

OldPhiKap
01-22-2016, 02:29 PM
I'll give you Notre Dame, but Stanford, ... not so much.

And Native is now a fellow alum, if I am not mistaken.

Congrats to Native if he jumped the broom (so to speak)! Although someone stole his ref shirt; I thought I saw it the other day at the game.

DukieInKansas
01-22-2016, 02:36 PM
Congrats to Native if he jumped the broom (so to speak)! Although someone stole his ref shirt; I thought I saw it the other day at the game.

He has graduated but I know he was back for at least one game so the ref shirt wearing individual could have been him.

sagegrouse
01-22-2016, 03:47 PM
I am not talking about "no-shows," but about the rise of portable (and quiet) generators at tailgate parties throughout the kingdom of college football. These portable generators seem to be able to run two or three large screen TVs with ease. Lots of people go to tailgate but spend only a little time at the game; the food, drink, viewing and companionship may be better in the tailgate park. And that seems to be as true at Alabama as at Duke.

throatybeard
01-22-2016, 04:30 PM
I am not talking about "no-shows," but about the rise of portable (and quiet) generators at tailgate parties throughout the kingdom of college football. These portable generators seem to be able to run two or three large screen TVs with ease. Lots of people go to tailgate but spend only a little time at the game; the food, drink, viewing and companionship may be better in the tailgate park. And that seems to be as true at Alabama as at Duke.

Bingo. Booze especially, though. Whatever the local rules, they tend to be laxer in letter and in enforcement outside the venue rather than in.