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Bostondevil
08-22-2015, 12:03 PM
When is it this year?

Also - is it possible to buy a ticket? (Asking for a non-alum fan/friend who will be in Durham in October.)

Native
08-22-2015, 03:53 PM
Countdown will be on October 17th this season, I believe.

Kimist
08-24-2015, 11:29 PM
They call it "Countdown 2 Craziness" and it is scheduled for October 17th.

It is an "optional" game for the Iron Dukes (not specifically included in full season ticket booklet), and some seats therefore become available as many Iron Dukes routinely travel from afar to attend the games. IIRC, the Iron Dukes could "request" up to 10 tickets to C2C this season??

The cheap seats are $35 each, and likely approach $50+ for those upstairs seats closer to mid-court. There is also a separate parking fee of $10 if you want to use a reserved lot.

My guess is there likely will be zero seats available downstairs, as every Crazie with a valid student ID card will likely attend.

You may wish to check with the Iron Dukes if you are a member. Otherwise, there will probably be a fair number of tickets "available" through the usual sources on the night of the event.

k

Indigo Wolf
08-25-2015, 11:36 PM
When is it this year?

Also - is it possible to buy a ticket? (Asking for a non-alum fan/friend who will be in Durham in October.)

I read somewhere that ticket sales are closed. Couldn't find it on ticketmaster which I buy everything from.

devil84
08-26-2015, 08:25 AM
I read somewhere that ticket sales are closed. Couldn't find it on ticketmaster which I buy everything from.

Ticket sales aren't open to the general public yet. Right now, ticket sales are open for Iron Dukes, including Iron Dukes who are not season ticket holders.

TerpsInACC
08-28-2015, 04:00 PM
Midnight Madness was started by my Maryland Terrapins way back in 1971 when we had Coach Lefty Driesell. Back in the early 1970s, it was a war between NC State and Maryland. Tough growing up a lifetime ACC and now we are in the Big Ten. I hope Duke and the rest do well unless you are playing my Terps.

Bob Green
08-28-2015, 06:15 PM
Midnight Madness was started by my Maryland Terrapins way back in 1971...

Really? I was always under the impression Midnight Madness was a Kentucky invention.

Bob Green
08-28-2015, 06:18 PM
Google agrees with TerpsInACC so I stand corrected.

devildeac
08-28-2015, 08:53 PM
Really? I was always under the impression Midnight Madness was a Kentucky invention.


Google agrees with TerpsInACC so I stand corrected.

Can't possibly be. Deano's gotta get some credit for it somewhere/somehow:rolleyes:.

DU82
08-28-2015, 10:14 PM
I read somewhere that ticket sales are closed. Couldn't find it on ticketmaster which I buy everything from.

Duke doesn't use ticketmaster, they have their own online system. It's unlikely that any tickets will be available to the public. Only available to Iron Duke members.

Olympic Fan
08-29-2015, 11:42 AM
Midnight Madness was started by my Maryland Terrapins way back in 1971 when we had Coach Lefty Driesell. Back in the early 1970s, it was a war between NC State and Maryland. Tough growing up a lifetime ACC and now we are in the Big Ten. I hope Duke and the rest do well unless you are playing my Terps.

Lefty (a Duke grad) did indeed invent Midnight Madness, but his first Midnight Madness was not a scrimmage or even a practice -- it was a mile run.

NCAA rules at the time said that the first organized practice could not be held until Oct. 15. Lefty wanted his team to run a timed mile and also practice on the first allowable day. But he found that running the mile ruined the practice even a couple of hours later. He got the brilliant idea that Oct. 15 started at 12:01 am. He decided that he would have them run their mile, starting a minute after midnight, then the players could go back and sleep, then have their first practice later the afternoon of Oct. 15.

But news of the midnight run got out to students and fans. There was a lot of excitement about the 1971-72 Terps because of the celebrated freshman class -- Tom McMillen, Len Elmore, etc. Lefty was surprised when several thousand fans showed up at midnight to watch the run.

Being the great promoter that he was, he saw possibilities and a year later, he held the first Midnight Madness scrimmage -- and event that became so popular so fast that it was soon copied.

Kentucky didn't invent it, but the turnover for Kentucky's event soon surpassed everybody else's -- they used to pack Memorial Hall on campus (I think they still do). So many schools started doing it that the NCAA relaxed the rules and allowed events earlier in the evening of the first day of legal practice (now of course they have a rationed number of practices before the so-called start of practice).

But give Driesell credit ... it was his invention.

Furniture
08-29-2015, 03:01 PM
Duke doesn't use ticketmaster, they have their own online system. It's unlikely that any tickets will be available to the public. Only available to Iron Duke members.

I'm not an Iron Duke but I still managed to buy tickets without any hassle last year through Duke.

Furniture
08-29-2015, 03:06 PM
They are actually on sale right now. Just set up an account.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=PERFORMERCATEGORY&SALE_TKT_PERFORMER_ID=67977&SALE_TKT_SALE_CATEGORIES_ID=63824

Furniture
08-29-2015, 03:20 PM
Nah. Scratch that they are (at least for the moment) only available for Iron Dukes….

devildeac
08-29-2015, 03:48 PM
Lefty (a Duke grad) did indeed invent Midnight Madness, but his first Midnight Madness was not a scrimmage or even a practice -- it was a mile run.

NCAA rules at the time said that the first organized practice could not be held until Oct. 15. Lefty wanted his team to run a timed mile and also practice on the first allowable day. But he found that running the mile ruined the practice even a couple of hours later. He got the brilliant idea that Oct. 15 started at 12:01 am. He decided that he would have them run their mile, starting a minute after midnight, then the players could go back and sleep, then have their first practice later the afternoon of Oct. 15.

But news of the midnight run got out to students and fans. There was a lot of excitement about the 1971-72 Terps because of the celebrated freshman class -- Tom McMillen, Len Elmore, etc. Lefty was surprised when several thousand fans showed up at midnight to watch the run.

Being the great promoter that he was, he saw possibilities and a year later, he held the first Midnight Madness scrimmage -- and event that became so popular so fast that it was soon copied.

Kentucky didn't invent it, but the turnover for Kentucky's event soon surpassed everybody else's -- they used to pack Memorial Hall on campus (I think they still do). So many schools started doing it that the NCAA relaxed the rules and allowed events earlier in the evening of the first day of legal practice (now of course they have a rationed number of practices before the so-called start of practice).

But give Driesell credit ... it was his invention.

Driesell credit? Hell, yea! After all, he's still one of ours:D;).

Edouble
08-29-2015, 04:10 PM
Driesell credit? Hell, yea! After all, he's still one of ours:D;).

He certainly is.

We can be proud that it was a Duke brain that invented Midnight Madness!

I recall at the 2001 Final Four, in the same season that Lefty's Georgia State team upset Wisconsin in the first round, an interviewer asked if it was difficult to decide who to root for in the Duke vs. Maryland game.

Without hesitation, Lefty said "I'm rooting for Duke. That's my school." Probably didn't hurt that Maryland had just beaten his Georgia State team in the second round though.

hallcity
08-29-2015, 04:22 PM
Will the banner be unveiled at CTC? I can't remember when they did that in prior championship years.

msdukie
08-29-2015, 06:23 PM
Will the banner be unveiled at CTC? I can't remember when they did that in prior championship years.

Yes.

TerpsInACC
08-30-2015, 12:01 AM
I graduated from Maryland way back in 1982 and I have met Lefty Driesell numerous times. In our last season in the ACC, I think I talked to him during the Maryland-Pitt game. Lefty told me he is so disgusted with Maryland leaving the ACC (just like how most older alumni feel), that he will never attend another Maryland game. He brought us in the spotlight in the early 1970s as he wanted Maryland to be the "UCLA of the East".

Atldukie79
08-30-2015, 07:47 AM
He certainly is.

We can be proud that it was a Duke brain that invented Midnight Madness!

I recall at the 2001 Final Four, in the same season that Lefty's Georgia State team upset Wisconsin in the first round, an interviewer asked if it was difficult to decide who to root for in the Duke vs. Maryland game.

Without hesitation, Lefty said "I'm rooting for Duke. That's my school." Probably didn't hurt that Maryland had just beaten his Georgia State team in the second round though.

I like Lefty (now) and share your pride, but I chuckle at the thought of Lefty and his brain getting credit in a public Duke forum. While he was coaching, he took a lot of hits for being, shall we say, "not bright"...the faux fuel tank indicators permanently set to "E" (Empty) attached to some crazies' bald heads was a clear statement of conventional wisdom regarding his intelligence!

devildeac
08-30-2015, 08:14 AM
I like Lefty (now) and share your pride, but I chuckle at the thought of Lefty and his brain getting credit in a public Duke forum. While he was coaching, he took a lot of hits for being, shall we say, "not bright"...the faux fuel tank indicators permanently set to "E" (Empty) attached to some crazies' bald heads was a clear statement of conventional wisdom regarding his intelligence!

The reference:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/eight-memories-endure-even-duke-maryland-rivalry-ends-200503267--ncaab.html

The quote:


"The Lefty Driesell scullcaps: Since longtime Maryland coach Lefty Driesell was nearly bald, Duke students used to mimic his likeness by attending games against the Terps clad in skullcaps. What made the gag fun was Driesell would inevitably poke fun right back at the Cameron Crazies. One year Driesell showed up wearing a wig. Another year he rubbed the "bald" head of a Duke student behind his bench for good luck. When a Duke student asked Driesell to sign his skullcap, Driesell, a Duke alum, famously signed only an X. Said Driesell afterward, "I told 'em that since I went to Duke, I never learned to write."

plimnko
08-30-2015, 08:24 AM
i always found it funny when lefty would stand up and feign combing his hair.

sagegrouse
08-30-2015, 11:15 AM
I like Lefty (now) and share your pride, but I chuckle at the thought of Lefty and his brain getting credit in a public Duke forum. While he was coaching, he took a lot of hits for being, shall we say, "not bright"...the faux fuel tank indicators permanently set to "E" (Empty) attached to some crazies' bald heads was a clear statement of conventional wisdom regarding his intelligence!

Don't under-rate the Lefthander. Here's his career track:

Granby HS JV (after giving up a good job elsewhere following graduation from Duke in '54)
Granby HS
Newport News HS, 1957-1960 (57-game winning streak)
Davidson College, 1960-69 (Davidson was a below-average SoCon team, not having a winning record in the previous ten seasons; he coached ten years there and only had one losing season [his first]; in his third year he beat Duke [with Heyman and Mullins]; he lost close games to UNC in the NCAA Elite Eight in '68 and '69)
Maryland, 1969-1986 (made Maryland a nationally ranked program, while never really dominating the ACC; won only one ACC championship and never made a Final Four)

Lefty would have coached Maryland for his entire career if he hadn't panicked after Len Bias tragically died from a cocaine overdose. Lefty, who had no involvement or responsibility in the drug incident, sent his assistants over to Bias's dorm to check for (and get rid of) evidence. No, Lefty! Call the police and offer to help. It's not the only time a head coach thought he had god-like powers. In the aftermath, he was dismissed as Head Coach.

He later coached successfully at JMU and Georgia State, making the NCAA'S with both teams. He reached the NCAA tournament as coach at four different colleges and is the only coach to have 100 wins at four different schools.

Bostondevil
08-30-2015, 11:22 AM
The Lefty quote I always use, "Ain't no flies on Duke."

Olympic Fan
08-30-2015, 11:32 AM
I like Lefty (now) and share your pride, but I chuckle at the thought of Lefty and his brain getting credit in a public Duke forum. While he was coaching, he took a lot of hits for being, shall we say, "not bright"...the faux fuel tank indicators permanently set to "E" (Empty) attached to some crazies' bald heads was a clear statement of conventional wisdom regarding his intelligence!

The big knock on Lefty's intelligence actually happened at a Duke-Maryland game. I believe it was in 1973, when a terrible Duke team upset No. 3 ranked Maryland (with McMillen, Elmore and Lucas) as Gary Melchionni had the game of his life and Bucky Waters threw the "Mongoose" offense at them.

Late in the game, Duke is up three and Maryland scores to cut it to one (no 3-point basket in those days). Lefty jumps off the bench and calls a timeout that Maryland didn't have. Technical foul -- Duke shoots a free throw and keeps the ball. On the inbounds, Duke is fouled, makes two free throws and wins 85-81.

Afterwards, Lefty was crucified for calling a timeout that he didn't have. He defended the move and uttered the words that a generation of ACC sports writers would use to mock him: "Ah, kin coach!"

But you know what, Lefty was right. In those days, the clock didn't stop after made baskets in the final minute (that rulr was changed before the 1993-94 season). Had Lefty not called his illegal timeout, Duke would have never inbounded the ball, the clock would have run out and Duke would have won. His illegal timeout was the only a chance Maryland had -- a slim one, yes, but at least a chance.

Lefty could coach.

TerpsInACC
08-30-2015, 11:07 PM
I miss Coaches like Lefty Driesell as he had charisma but also joked back when the Cameron Crazies gave him a hard time. I remember he would be outraged in the 1970s and early 1980s when UNC (did people call them UNCheat back then?) would go into their "four corners" and Phil Ford had no attention of having the Heels score to stall out the clock. I feel the shot clock happened because of Dean Smith's four corners stall tactics. We are going from a 35 second shot clock last year to 30 seconds this year which should increase the offense.

Olympic Fan
08-30-2015, 11:09 PM
I miss Coaches like Lefty Driesell as he had charisma but also joked back when the Cameron Crazies gave him a hard time. I remember he would be outraged in the 1970s and early 1980s when UNC (did people call them UNCheat back then?) would go into their "four corners" and Phil Ford had no attention of having the Heels score to stall out the clock. I feel the shot clock happened because of Dean Smith's four corners stall tactics. We are going from a 35 second shot clock last year to 30 seconds this year which should increase the offense.

Except the last time we reduced the shot clock (from 45 to 35 seconds), scoring actually went down.

OldPhiKap
08-31-2015, 05:56 AM
Except the last time we reduced the shot clock (from 45 to 35 seconds), scoring actually went down.

Exactly. If you can't get a good shot in 35 seconds, all this means is that you take a bad shot sooner.

I think the biggest statistical difference will be in rebounds, which should go up.

As for Lefty, he was a great coach and a true character. Not sure they make 'em like that anymore.

tux
08-31-2015, 01:06 PM
Exactly. If you can't get a good shot in 35 seconds, all this means is that you take a bad shot sooner.

I think the biggest statistical difference will be in rebounds, which should go up.


Obviously, the number of possessions will go up, which is what folks point to in terms of generating more offense. The problem is that the shorter clock actually helps the defense and puts more pressure on the offense to create a good shot out of their primary and secondary actions/sets. (Less time to reset the offense when something doesn't work.)

One consequence may be reduced variability in offensive styles, as some systems will become less practical especially if we're headed toward a 24-second shot clock...

rsvman
08-31-2015, 03:13 PM
Agree with the others that the 30-second clock is unlikely to lead to higher scoring games. IMO if it does anything, it will make the game less interesting. I feel that 35 or even 40 seconds is about the right amount of time for a shot clock in college basketball. I hope they quit trying to make the college game be the pro game. I'd like to keep them separate if at all possible.


As for the actual topic of the thread, I've never been to craziness or any midnight madness event. I think it would be fun. This year's even is likely to be really great, what with the banner unveiling and all......

wsb3
08-31-2015, 03:47 PM
I like Lefty (now) and share your pride, but I chuckle at the thought of Lefty and his brain getting credit in a public Duke forum. While he was coaching, he took a lot of hits for being, shall we say, "not bright"...the faux fuel tank indicators permanently set to "E" (Empty) attached to some crazies' bald heads was a clear statement of conventional wisdom regarding his intelligence!

Didn't he sign some of the posters you speak of once for Duke fans? I can't prove it but it seems I recall that being said by one of the announcers during a Duke Maryland game..

devildeac
08-31-2015, 04:25 PM
Didn't he sign some of the posters you speak of once for Duke fans? I can't prove it but it seems I recall that being said by one of the announcers during a Duke Maryland game..

Please see post #21 above. ;)

Olympic Fan
08-31-2015, 04:36 PM
I think over the years, Driesell and Valvano were the two visiting coaches who most embraced the Crazies.

Dean and Norm Sloan were the two who bristled the most.

It was funny, the Crazies used to torture Sloan. One of the best stunts ever was when a male student in drag went out to sing the national anthem as Mrs. Norman Sloan (the real Mrs. Sloan used to sing the anthem before State games in Reynolds). Norm -- long known as Stormin' Norman -- went ballistic. But everything the Crazies did made him ballistic.

Then he was gone and they tried the same things with Valvano -- and he loved it. He used to go up in the stands and join them.

The contrast couldn't have been more pronounced.

Dean, of course, was always holier than thou, always complaining crude behavior -- about the "JR can't Reid" signs or the "Hey, Jeff, have you driven a Ford lately?" sign.

I wish we had known then what we know now -- that underneath the image, he started the worst academic scandal in NCAA history.

wsb3
08-31-2015, 05:22 PM
Please see post #21 above. ;)

I missed that..Thank you..

rocketeli
08-31-2015, 05:32 PM
The big knock on Lefty's intelligence actually happened at a Duke-Maryland game. I believe it was in 1973, when a terrible Duke team upset No. 3 ranked Maryland (with McMillen, Elmore and Lucas) as Gary Melchionni had the game of his life and Bucky Waters threw the "Mongoose" offense at them.

Late in the game, Duke is up three and Maryland scores to cut it to one (no 3-point basket in those days). Lefty jumps off the bench and calls a timeout that Maryland didn't have. Technical foul -- Duke shoots a free throw and keeps the ball. On the inbounds, Duke is fouled, makes two free throws and wins 85-81.

Afterwards, Lefty was crucified for calling a timeout that he didn't have. He defended the move and uttered the words that a generation of ACC sports writers would use to mock him: "Ah, kin coach!"

But you know what, Lefty was right. In those days, the clock didn't stop after made baskets in the final minute (that rulr was changed before the 1993-94 season). Had Lefty not called his illegal timeout, Duke would have never inbounded the ball, the clock would have run out and Duke would have won. His illegal timeout was the only a chance Maryland had -- a slim one, yes, but at least a chance.

Lefty could coach.

I hate to show my age, but IIRC in 1973 the clock stopped after every made basket.

Pghdukie
08-31-2015, 05:36 PM
Gary Williams can be added into the equation also. He tried to be a nice guy and play along, but inside he hated the CC's

-jk
08-31-2015, 06:02 PM
I hate to show my age, but IIRC in 1973 the clock stopped after every made basket.

Wasn't that '72 in Munich?

-jk

devildeac
08-31-2015, 06:56 PM
I think over the years, Driesell and Valvano were the two visiting coaches who most embraced the Crazies.

Dean and Norm Sloan were the two who bristled the most.

It was funny, the Crazies used to torture Sloan. One of the best stunts ever was when a male student in drag went out to sing the national anthem as Mrs. Norman Sloan (the real Mrs. Sloan used to sing the anthem before State games in Reynolds). Norm -- long known as Stormin' Norman -- went ballistic. But everything the Crazies did made him ballistic.

Then he was gone and they tried the same things with Valvano -- and he loved it. He used to go up in the stands and join them.

The contrast couldn't have been more pronounced.

Dean, of course, was always holier than thou, always complaining crude behavior -- about the "JR can't Reid" signs or the "Hey, Jeff, have you driven a Ford lately?" sign.

I wish we had known then what we know now -- that underneath the image, he started the worst academic scandal in NCAA history.

Yes, he (most likely) started the worst academic scandal in NCAA history, but let's give the guy some positive credit, too. As I snarkily (no, not me:rolleyes:) suggested upthread that he must have had some hand in starting Midnight Madness, brevity replied to me privately (and with great wit, of course ;)) something to the detriment/detraction of Naismith and with the admiration/edification (cough) of the fact (cough, cough) that Dean Smith (must have) invented basketball.:rolleyes:

devildeac
08-31-2015, 07:03 PM
Wasn't that '72 in Munich?

-jk

That was only after every missed basket/time-out/in-bounds play:mad:.

OldPhiKap
08-31-2015, 07:12 PM
30 second shot clock will also mean more fouls on late drives, which means more delays, which means the game goes longer . . . .

Olympic Fan
08-31-2015, 09:44 PM
I hate to show my age, but IIRC in 1973 the clock stopped after every made basket.

You remember wrong, the rule change occurred after the 1993 season. If you remember, in the historic 1992 NCAA game with Kentucky, Duke had to get a timeout called with 2.1 seconds left after Kentucky's Sean Woods stored to take the lead in overtime. K talked at the time about how proud he was that as the basket went in, every player on the floor signaled for a timeout.

The precipitating event for the rule change was the Indiana-Xavier game in the second round of the 1993 Midwest Regional in Indianapolis. Xavier hit a 3-pointer with 13 seconds left top cut the lead to 71-68. But Indiana's Damon Bailey took his time getting to the ball as the clock was running, He finally passed it to Calbert Chaney with 3 seconds left. The officials could have stopped the clock if they thought Indiana was stalling -- and Bailey later sort of admitted that he was -- but with 30,000 plus Hoosier fans in the Dome pulling for Indiana, none of the refs were going to give Xavier a break.

In the off-season, the rule was changed to stop the clock after a made basket in the final minute of the second half or overtime.

Here's a account of the '93 Indiana-Xavier game, describing the situation:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-22/sports/sp-13842_1_midwest-regional

Here's the official NCAA history of rule changes (not the change I'm talking about is listed as in 1993-94 -- the same time the shot clock was reducted from 45 to 35 seconds):

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Rules.pdf

.

sagegrouse
08-31-2015, 11:12 PM
30 second shot clock will also mean more fouls on late drives, which means more delays, which means the game goes longer . . . .

The only games that will go longer, I believe, are the early games before Duke comes on TV.

rocketeli
09-01-2015, 07:10 AM
You remember wrong, the rule change occurred after the 1993 season. If you remember, in the historic 1992 NCAA game with Kentucky, Duke had to get a timeout called with 2.1 seconds left after Kentucky's Sean Woods stored to take the lead in overtime. K talked at the time about how proud he was that as the basket went in, every player on the floor signaled for a timeout.

The precipitating event for the rule change was the Indiana-Xavier game in the second round of the 1993 Midwest Regional in Indianapolis. Xavier hit a 3-pointer with 13 seconds left top cut the lead to 71-68. But Indiana's Damon Bailey took his time getting to the ball as the clock was running, He finally passed it to Calbert Chaney with 3 seconds left. The officials could have stopped the clock if they thought Indiana was stalling -- and Bailey later sort of admitted that he was -- but with 30,000 plus Hoosier fans in the Dome pulling for Indiana, none of the refs were going to give Xavier a break.

In the off-season, the rule was changed to stop the clock after a made basket in the final minute of the second half or overtime.

Here's a account of the '93 Indiana-Xavier game, describing the situation:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-22/sports/sp-13842_1_midwest-regional

Here's the official NCAA history of rule changes (not the change I'm talking about is listed as in 1993-94 -- the same time the shot clock was reducted from 45 to 35 seconds):

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Rules.pdf

.

Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

wsb3
09-01-2015, 07:51 AM
Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

Showing my age as well. I recall the single foul shot..

Skitzle
09-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Am I the only one amused by the underlying theme of this thread?

"Board Thread 1: Football is starting soon!
Board Thread 2: Is basketball here yet?"

rsvman
09-01-2015, 11:17 AM
Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

Yes, although I have to say we didn't necessarily enjoy ALL the games.

I visited my father's place recently and he asked me to go through some old stuff of mine that was in boxes in his basement. Among other things, I found a column written by Devin Durant, who was a forward on the BYU basketball team at the time (circa 1980). The team had gone to play Hawaii on Oahu. Hawaii knew it was seriously outmanned, so it tried the slow-down. At the 7 minute mark in the second half, BYU had a two-point lead and Hawaii was still stalling the game. The BYU coach elected, because of the lead, to have the team sit back in a defensive stance and do nothing.

At that point, one of the Hawaii guards stood out on the wing but closer to halfcourt and just HELD THE BALL on his hip. This went on for FOUR MINUTES of playing time. Four minutes. No activity whatsoever. No dribbling, no passing, no offense, no defense. Absolutely nothing.*

Devin said that he offered one of the Hawaii players 5 pineapples if they would just attempt to play, but was refused. BYU ended up winning the game 44-43 on a Durant free throw.

Anyway, the upshot of Durant's newspaper column was to contemplate the idea of a shot clot, and apparently the idea was a radical one. His proposal was a 60-second shot clot. He said that 60 seconds would allow a team plenty of time to develop an offensive play/back-up play, but prevent the kind of mind-numbingly boring game that we had all just witnessed.

I think that Devin's idea was a good one, and maybe 60 seconds was too long. But I really liked the 45-second clock and I wish we could go back to it.





*(IIRC, even Dean's teams would at least dribble, or pass the ball from player to player. Boring, yes, but not as boring as watching a guy actually plant himself on the floor and put the ball on his hip for four minutes.)

-jk
09-01-2015, 11:38 AM
I seem to recall a rule from before the shot clock that the trailing team on offense had to move the ball past the old hash mark - now used as the coach's box - every so often to (pretend to) advance the game, and when on defense actually (pretend to) defend. That's what forced ball movement in the 4 corners.

-jk

Olympic Fan
09-01-2015, 12:29 PM
Now I'm really showing my age. It is hard to believe, but in the early 70s the clock STOPPED after a basket and the referee took the ball and handed it to the team scored upon, as is done after a foul today. There was also no taking the ball out of bounds for the first 6 fouls, instead the fouled player shot a single free throw. All tie-ups were jump balls jumped by the two players who tied the ball up. There was no shot clock...and yet we enjoyed the games.

I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

You do remember correctly that until the mid-1970s, the first six common fouls were one free throw. That came into play during the 12-10 NC State win over Duke in the 1968 ACC Tournament. Duke held a 7-4 lead for most of the second half, but with minutes remaining, State started fouling. Since there had been no action for 35-plus minutes, they were trading one free throw for the chance to score a two-point basket. That strategy became more prevalent in slowdown games and coaches decided that the rule was unfair -- that it could reward a team for fouling. There was a push at the same time to make free throws late in the game optional -- that the team could have the choice of taking the ball out of bounds instead of shooting the free throws -- but that rule change failed.

Actually, until then mid-1960s, the clock wouldn't necessarily stop on out of bounds plays either. In the 1960 NCAA Tournament against St. Joseph's, Duke was up 58-56 when Johnny Frye missed a game-clinching free throw. St. Joe's rebounded, but when a Duke player (Howard Hurt?) knocked the ball out of bounds -- into the crowd at the old Charlotte Coliseum. It took an inordinately long time for St. Joe's Paul Westhead (the future coach) to retrieve the ball. By the time he threw it in, the buzzer was sounding. Jack Ramsey, the St. Joe's coach, went ballistic on ref Max Maxon for not stopping the clock on the out of bounds play (which he could have done ... just as modern refs can stop the clock if an inbounding team takes too long to get to the ball after a made basket).

Interesting historical parallel -- Macon, the ref who gave Duke a break in 1960, was a pitcher for the Braves in the majors. 32 years later, Bruce Benedict, the ref who screwed Duke in the NCAA game with Indiana, was a catcher for the Braves ... ultimate proof that over time, the breaks even out (although not always thanks to a pitching battery of the Braves).

As for the hash marks, that was indeed an attempt to speed up action. The marking (and the rule) were instituted in the early 1970s. Before that -- as in the 1968 12-10 Duke-State game or the 1966 21-20 Duke win over UNC -- there were no such markings. The hash marks, about 20 feet in from the midcourt, were an attempt to speed play without instituting a shot clock. The rule was that the trailing team had to cross the hash-mark periodically (I think it was every 10 seconds, not sure). If the team with the ball was leading or the score was tied, it was up to the defense to come out and cross the hash mark to force the action. Failure to do so was a technical foul. The idea was to prevent the spectacle of the 1968 Duke-State game, when State's center stood near midcourt with the ball on his hip, while the Duke defense stayed in a zone that didn't extend past the top of the key. During one stretch, the State center stood without moving for over seven minutes -- about that time, Bill Curry (the mouth of the South) told his radio audience "this is about as exciting as watching artificial insemination."

The hash mark rule did have a major consequence in one of the most controversial games in ACC history. Everybody remembers the scoreboard play that helped UNC tie Wake Forest in the 1975 ACC Tournament. But what we forget is that the scoreboard play only helped UNC force OT. In the overtime, the game was tied -- with UNC in the Four Corners, when Wake was whistled for a technical foul for not forcing the action. That call was the difference as UNC won 101-100 and went on to win the ACC title.

devildeac
09-01-2015, 12:37 PM
I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

You do remember correctly that until the mid-1970s, the first six common fouls were one free throw. That came into play during the 12-10 NC State win over Duke in the 1968 ACC Tournament. Duke held a 7-4 lead for most of the second half, but with minutes remaining, State started fouling. Since there had been no action for 35-plus minutes, they were trading one free throw for the chance to score a two-point basket. That strategy became more prevalent in slowdown games and coaches decided that the rule was unfair -- that it could reward a team for fouling. There was a push at the same time to make free throws late in the game optional -- that the team could have the choice of taking the ball out of bounds instead of shooting the free throws -- but that rule change failed.

Actually, until then mid-1960s, the clock wouldn't necessarily stop on out of bounds plays either. In the 1960 NCAA Tournament against St. Joseph's, Duke was up 58-56 when Johnny Frye missed a game-clinching free throw. St. Joe's rebounded, but when a Duke player (Howard Hurt?) knocked the ball out of bounds -- into the crowd at the old Charlotte Coliseum. It took an inordinately long time for St. Joe's Paul Westhead (the future coach) to retrieve the ball. By the time he threw it in, the buzzer was sounding. Jack Ramsey, the St. Joe's coach, went ballistic on ref Max Maxon for not stopping the clock on the out of bounds play (which he could have done ... just as modern refs can stop the clock if an inbounding team takes too long to get to the ball after a made basket).

Interesting historical parallel -- Macon, the ref who gave Duke a break in 1960, was a pitcher for the Braves in the majors. 32 years later, Bruce Benedict, the ref who screwed Duke in the NCAA game with Indiana, was a catcher for the Braves ... ultimate proof that over time, the breaks even out (although not always thanks to a pitching battery of the Braves).

As for the hash marks, that was indeed an attempt to speed up action. The marking (and the rule) were instituted in the early 1970s. Before that -- as in the 1968 12-10 Duke-State game or the 1966 21-20 Duke win over UNC -- there were no such markings. The hash marks, about 20 feet in from the midcourt, were an attempt to speed play without instituting a shot clock. The rule was that the trailing team had to cross the hash-mark periodically (I think it was every 10 seconds, not sure). If the team with the ball was leading or the score was tied, it was up to the defense to come out and cross the hash mark to force the action. Failure to do so was a technical foul. The idea was to prevent the spectacle of the 1968 Duke-State game, when State's center stood near midcourt with the ball on his hip, while the Duke defense stayed in a zone that didn't extend past the top of the key. During one stretch, the State center stood without moving for over seven minutes -- about that time, Bill Curry (the mouth of the South) told his radio audience "this is about as exciting as watching artificial insemination."

The hash mark rule did have a major consequence in one of the most controversial games in ACC history. Everybody remembers the scoreboard play that helped UNC tie Wake Forest in the 1975 ACC Tournament. But what we forget is that the scoreboard play only helped UNC force OT. In the overtime, the game was tied -- with UNC in the Four Corners, when Wake was whistled for a technical foul for not forcing the action. That call was the difference as UNC won 101-100 and went on to win the ACC title.

I had forgotten the T. Yet another reason in a very, very long list to despise those lying, cheating bastards...

Bay Area Duke Fan
09-01-2015, 12:43 PM
My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

devildeac
09-01-2015, 12:57 PM
My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

Dean started that, too. Right after he beat Naismith to the peach baskets (points toward brevity to give acknowledgement/credit/thanks for the assist;)). And Midnight Madness. And the four corners. :rolleyes:

sagegrouse
09-01-2015, 12:59 PM
I don't know what evidence it takes to convince you guys, but the clock DID NOT stop after made baskets in the early 1970s and the ref DID NOT have to hand the ball to the inbounder. See my post a bit earlier in this threat for confirmation.

.

You tell 'em, OF. I was the clock operator in high school back in the, well.... before the 1970s. In exciting games the fans would stand up suddenly, and I couldn't see. Back in those days, and in college as well, the clock DIDN'T STOP on out-of-bounds plays or other violations (travels, up-and-down), where there was a whistle. The clock DID stop on fouls. The problem for a temporarily blinded clock operator was to tell one from the other without being able to see the ref.

And, of course, the clock DIDN'T stop on made baskets, where there is no whistle at all -- just a hand signal. I assume, in the last minute, there is a whistle.

Olympic Fan
09-01-2015, 01:36 PM
My memory isn't so good anymore; but I recall there being a jump ball at mid-court after each made basket.

If you can remember back to the 1936-37 season, then you are remembering correctly.

neemizzle
09-15-2015, 11:19 AM
I just bought 4 tickets. Not sure if anyone else noticed they went up like this today.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=EVENTSELECT&SALE_TKT_EVENT_ID=731419&IN_PARKING=

elvis14
09-15-2015, 03:45 PM
I just bought 4 tickets. Not sure if anyone else noticed they went up like this today.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=EVENTSELECT&SALE_TKT_EVENT_ID=731419&IN_PARKING=

Are these open to the general public or just Iron Dukes?

neemizzle
09-16-2015, 06:56 AM
Are these open to the general public or just Iron Dukes?

I am general public and it let me buy them. Seating is priority to the Iron Dukes though. I'm assuming they'll place a location on my seats once they sort the Iron Dukes out.

neemizzle
09-16-2015, 07:16 AM
There are three different price points. YOU CAN BUY THEM NOW FOR GENERAL PUBLIC.

$40
$35
$30

MattC09
09-16-2015, 10:56 AM
I am general public and it let me buy them. Seating is priority to the Iron Dukes though. I'm assuming they'll place a location on my seats once they sort the Iron Dukes out.

I got my email last night that my tickets had been processed so Iron Dukes' priority is now over, especially if you can order different levels of tickets.

jimsumner
09-16-2015, 01:26 PM
You tell 'em, OF. I was the clock operator in high school back in the, well.... before the 1970s. In exciting games the fans would stand up suddenly, and I couldn't see. Back in those days, and in college as well, the clock DIDN'T STOP on out-of-bounds plays or other violations (travels, up-and-down), where there was a whistle. The clock DID stop on fouls. The problem for a temporarily blinded clock operator was to tell one from the other without being able to see the ref.

And, of course, the clock DIDN'T stop on made baskets, where there is no whistle at all -- just a hand signal. I assume, in the last minute, there is a whistle.

This is one of the reasons good coaches tried to preserve a timeout for the game's final seconds. I remember the 1986 ACCT title game between Duke and Georgia Tech. Duke led by three, Tech scored with about four seconds left to cut it to one (no 3-point shot in those days). Tech was out of timeouts and a Duke player (Amaker maybe) just held the ball out of bounds until the clock ran out.

This wasn't atypical. Lots of games ended this way and it wasn't aesthetically pleasing.

As an aside, Roy Williams isn't convinced that the NCAA won't go back and change the rule in the middle of a game. Thus, he makes sure to save a timeout or three. Just in case.

Pghdukie
09-16-2015, 05:02 PM
Any idea of recruits that will be at CTC ?

cbarry
09-16-2015, 07:16 PM
I don't know how long they have been available to non-Iron Dukes, but I was able to place my order for C2C tickets tonight! Looking forward to it!


They are actually on sale right now. Just set up an account.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=PERFORMERCATEGORY&SALE_TKT_PERFORMER_ID=67977&SALE_TKT_SALE_CATEGORIES_ID=63824

ChillinDuke
10-16-2015, 10:09 AM
I don't know how long they have been available to non-Iron Dukes, but I was able to place my order for C2C tickets tonight! Looking forward to it!

Page 6, guys?

Really?

- Chillin

mattman91
10-16-2015, 10:19 AM
Page 6, guys?

Really?

- Chillin

Football school.

elvis14
10-16-2015, 12:19 PM
I'm really looking forward to tomorrow night. It will be the first time I'll make it to C2C. Should be extra fun coming off the national championship. Can't wait to see how good the returning players look and to get a first look at the incoming freshman!

fuse
10-16-2015, 03:02 PM
Does anyone have a real schedule for CTC?

If I recall correctly, the doors open at 7 but actual events / scrimmage don't really begin before 9pm?

94duke
10-16-2015, 03:12 PM
Does anyone have a real schedule for CTC?

If I recall correctly, the doors open at 7 but actual events / scrimmage don't really begin before 9pm?

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210423787&DB_OEM_ID=4200


Countdown to Craziness presented by Delta Air Lines Schedule of Events (subject to change)
4 p.m. – Activities, music and games in Krzyzewskiville
5:30 p.m. – Doors to Cameron Indoor Stadium open
6:50 p.m. – On-court promotions and student performances begin
7:55 p.m. – National Anthem
8 p.m. – Introduction of 2015-16 Duke Blue Devils
8:30 p.m. – Blue-White Scrimmage (two 12-minute halves with an eight-minute halftime)

mattman91
10-16-2015, 03:21 PM
Will this be live on Goduke for subscribers?

94duke
10-16-2015, 03:30 PM
Will this be live on Goduke for subscribers?

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210423787&DB_OEM_ID=4200


Blue Devil fans who are unable to attend Countdown to Craziness have the opportunity to view the action live via Blue Devil Network Plus on GoDuke.com. Ryan Craig, Chris Spatola and former Duke All-American Nolan Smith will provide insight and analysis.

MarkD83
10-17-2015, 05:21 PM
40 minutes and counting (at least according to Go Duke.com)!!!!!!!!! Go Duke!!!!!! (I click on the link and it says 7:30). I have been patiently waiting for 7 months and I have to wait 30 minutes more.....argh!!!!

SCMatt33
10-17-2015, 06:42 PM
So I didn't notice this yet, but it looks like they replaced the black underline of "ACC" at the foul lines with white ones. Those black underlines annoyed the heck out of me last year, so I'm glad to see the change. Couldn't completely get rid of the black lines given the double restricted arc, though.

mattman91
10-17-2015, 06:56 PM
Seeing that black tarp over the banner gives me chills.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 07:09 PM
These series of student performances / competitions have run long apparently.

Hoping we can get to the national anthem soon.

SCMatt33
10-17-2015, 07:14 PM
Seeing that black tarp over the banner gives me chills.

Knowing it will drop in a few minutes gives me even more chills!

mattman91
10-17-2015, 07:29 PM
Luuuuuuuuuuke!

We're gonna be saying that a lot.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 07:34 PM
lol at Marshall coming out to Cena

riverside6
10-17-2015, 07:35 PM
Live tempo-based stats for the Blue/White scrimmage...

http://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-duke-basketball-live-stats-10172015-7-pm

Duke95
10-17-2015, 07:38 PM
Nobel Prize winners in the house.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 07:47 PM
Whites - MP3, Obi, Amile, Grayson, Luke.... J-Rob on bench

Blues - Vrank, Jeter, Ingram, Matt, Derryck


Interesting lineups

mattman91
10-17-2015, 07:53 PM
Why is the UNC $#!t above this?

Marshall's dunk was great.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 07:54 PM
Why is the UNC $#!t above this?

Marshall's dunk was great.

His baby hook for 2 wasn't too shabby either.

devildeac
10-17-2015, 07:58 PM
Live tempo-based stats for the Blue/White scrimmage...

http://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-duke-basketball-live-stats-10172015-7-pm

Coaches obviously don't know Obi as he's got 3 boards in 5 minutes (which obviously would give him 24 rebounds per 40 minutes and make him the greatest rebounder in Duke MBB history, even better than Z his senior year;)) and they sit him!!! WTH?;):rolleyes:

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:00 PM
What? No chat? :rolleyes::o

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:00 PM
Well-played, competitive, enjoyable game to watch so far.

MP3's been a beast.

Luke playing a lot of PG, matching up with Derryck.

Amile's been aggressive driving the ball. Playing both SF and PF.

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:05 PM
Whites - MP3, Obi, Amile, Grayson, Luke.... J-Rob on bench

Blues - Vrank, Jeter, Ingram, Matt, Derryck


Interesting lineups

Wait! They have Obi listed on the Blue team now on the live stats link. Dammit, looks like he's the first player off this year's squad to transfer (again). :rolleyes:;)

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:08 PM
Obi's amazing. He's played 8 minutes on 2 different teams in the same night with 5 boards in those 8 minutes. That now works out to 25 boards per 40 minutes! Holy cow! I can't wait to hear what the SIU coach says about him...

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:13 PM
Yikes! Thornton has 2A and 5 TO. Let's put that on the Duke all-time TO list:o. We want Luke! We want Luke!

;)

mattman91
10-17-2015, 08:16 PM
Yikes! Thornton has 2A and 5 TO. Let's put that on the Duke all-time TO list:o. We want Luke! We want Luke!

;)

We want Besser!

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:16 PM
Yeah, the Kennard/Allen backcourt ran better offense than the Thornton/Ingram ball-handling duo on blue.

A lot of that had to do with white big man defenders (Marshall, Amile) being better than the inexperienced blue big men.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:20 PM
Wow, Grayson winning the Iron Devil award from Coach Will.

Workout beast!

MarkD83
10-17-2015, 08:24 PM
I assume they switched up the teams and started from 0-0 in the 2nd half because the stats show a 3-0 game score.

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:27 PM
I assume they switched up the teams and started from 0-0 in the 2nd half because the stats show a 3-0 game score.

Horvath hit a 3 at the buzzer after an Obi rebound...

mattman91
10-17-2015, 08:29 PM
Thornton does NOT look very good out there.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:29 PM
2nd half

Whites - MP3, Chase, J-Rob, Matt, Grayson

Blues - Obi, Amile, Ingram, Luke, Derryck.... Vrank off bench


Coach keeping it even still. Sometimes they play obvious starters vs bench, but not this year

mattman91
10-17-2015, 08:32 PM
Thornton does NOT look very good out there.

Neither does Jeter.

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:34 PM
Obi with 2 boards in 3 minutes this half on his new team and on the bench already:rolleyes:.

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:36 PM
Jeter and Jones each w/4 PF now. NBA summer league rules?

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:41 PM
Uh-oh, Jeter's transferred now. Does that mean he has to sit out a semester or a year?:o

devildeac
10-17-2015, 08:44 PM
Vrank is +6 this half. He needs a Z in his name...

mattman91
10-17-2015, 08:45 PM
Pags!

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:47 PM
Nice comeback for Whites here after Blues scored the first 7 points or so.

MP3 and Grayson will finish 2-0 if they hold on. They are obvious starters at this point.

Derryck and Brandon will finish 0-2.

Coach James 2-0.

Coach Scheyer 0-2.

mattman91
10-17-2015, 08:54 PM
Did everyone else's feed freeze?

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 08:56 PM
Did everyone else's feed freeze?

Matt hit the second FT as well. Cool as ice, to ice the game.

Furniture
10-17-2015, 09:04 PM
Did everyone else's feed freeze?

Yes with Matt on the FT line!

I want my money back....

FireOgilvie
10-17-2015, 09:20 PM
Great to see everyone out there. Marshall looked fantastic and played under control; the game looks to have slowed down for him. 10 pts (5-6 fg), 8 reb, 2 blocks, 2 wins.

SilkyJ
10-17-2015, 09:36 PM
Yes with Matt on the FT line!

I want my money back....

Me 3

gep
10-17-2015, 09:58 PM
Great to see everyone out there. Marshall looked fantastic and played under control; the game looks to have slowed down for him. 10 pts (5-6 fg), 8 reb, 2 blocks, 2 wins.

I hope Marshall can have a very good, productive senior season. GO DUKE!!!!

rocketeli
10-17-2015, 10:07 PM
At last! Basketball-ish activity. Banner was cool, but most Duke students must be better at taking SATs then dancing etc. IMHO we should either get more professional with the "entertainment" or be all business with the scrimmage, dunking and similar.
What I saw, in a short scrimmage
Marshall, Amile took advantage of their experience, Marshall had some nice moments
Allen andJones played hard
Obi showed nice positioning skills on rebounding, but due to inexperience or lack of athleticism, it often availed him not.
These freshman are not last years freshmen.
Thornton struggled today. If he keeps that up he'll be on the bench and Allen/Jones will cover point.
Ingram is talented he could develop into something special with experience.
Kennard can score which will earn him PT, how much will depend on how other aspects of his game progress.
Jester did not look ready for prime time. Vrankovic was the slow big project as advertised.
Robinson, I think, was a pleasant surprise. Expectations are not so high for him, but I thought he looked comfortable out there.

Ima Facultiwyfe
10-17-2015, 10:08 PM
Well, we just got home. I'm sure all of you are just waiting breathlessly to hear my first hand impressions. So here goes:

LOTS of pure talent awaiting choreography.
Defense will be fun and effective.
General Plumlee will gleefully lead them into battle.
Thornton will be tough to catch. He's got jet fuel.
Grayson has turned himself into a hunk.
Kennard needs to stop worrying about his hair-do.
Obi will be better than anyone thinks.
The cheerleaders weigh more than the team.
Love, Ima

shereec
10-17-2015, 10:19 PM
And was that the marching band instead of just the pep band?

OZ
10-17-2015, 10:22 PM
The cheerleaders weigh more than the team.
Love, Ima


Best assessment of the night!

dukelifer
10-17-2015, 10:37 PM
Well-played, competitive, enjoyable game to watch so far.

MP3's been a beast.

Luke playing a lot of PG, matching up with Derryck.

Amile's been aggressive driving the ball. Playing both SF and PF.

My takeaways-

The young guys showed flashes of greatness and inexperience
Will be hard to keep Kennard out of the lineup- kid is a gamer
Ingram has a hard time getting to his spot- not strong enough - but the talent is obvious
Marshall is a man and much more coordinated- Plumlees hit their stride in year 5
Amile has really worked on his game
Jeter has very good form from the line- nice surprise
Robinson looks taller than I imagined and can play D.
Thornton- very quick but loose with the ball- gonna be an adventure all season
Not sure if anyone on this team can pass the ball
Lots of eventual talent- but no clear star
Allen's handle is so-so but will shoot a ton of free throws
Obi is strong but not sure what he will give out there
Jones is solid- but still struggles up close
Kennard touches his hair A LOT- needs to buzz it- it will be gone before he is 25 anyway

Should be a fun team to watch develop - but they have a lot of work ahead to be in the upper
echelon. Will be a very up and down season.

Troublemaker
10-17-2015, 10:43 PM
Coach K presser: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=4561211

Olympic Fan
10-17-2015, 11:42 PM
Just a few interesting things in the final stats:

-- Thornton did lead everybody with six assists ... although he also had seven turnovers
-- Grayson didn't shoot well (4-12/0-4 on 3s), but he was the leading scorer in the two halves with 13 and he did have 5 assists and no turnovers
-- Obi didn't do much, but he did have seven rebounds in 12 minutes of action. That's a pretty amazing rebound rate
-- Jeter had 9 rebounds (and 11 points) in 23 minutes, MP3 had 10 points and nine rebounds in 24 minutes.
-- Kennard was pretty effective with 12 points on 5-10 shooting (just 2-7 on 3s). Nobody shot 3s particularly well.
-- Tough night for Ingram ... actually he had a pretty good first half (9 pts on 4-8 shooting and 1-3 3s) but was helpless in the second half (0-5 shooting; 0-2 3s)
-- Overall, the veterans are clearly ahead of the freshmen ... I'm sure that gap will close quickly.

Overall, I don't want to read too much into one scrimmage, but I suspect we won't hit the ground running quite as fast as we did to open last season. But I still think we'll get there.

FireOgilvie
10-18-2015, 01:09 AM
Here is a combined box score I put together from the official stats:

5581

gwlaw99
10-18-2015, 01:15 AM
Not sure we will have any underclassmen go this year. Ingram may go on talent. Next years team could be great for f everyone stays.

brevity
10-18-2015, 02:37 AM
Here is a combined box score I put together from the official stats:

5581

I haven't had a chance to study this box score closely, but I can make an early conclusion: Duke should always play against Duke. Getting rid of the opponent answers all of DBR's issues with player minutes.

MChambers
10-18-2015, 06:14 AM
I haven't had a chance to study this box score closely, but I can make an early conclusion: Duke should always play against Duke. Getting rid of the opponent answers all of DBR's issues with player minutes.
What would we obsess over if not player minutes?

I didn't see the scrimmage, but remember that Zoubek's freshman year, he dominated the Blue White game. A few folks suggested he might be one and done. Don't place too much weight on a single glorified practice.

uh_no
10-18-2015, 06:27 AM
Not sure we will have any underclassmen go this year. Ingram may go on talent. Next years team could be great for f everyone stays.

Whoah there nellie!

we have a potentially great team this year! don't write it off so soon!

devildeac
10-18-2015, 06:28 AM
I haven't had a chance to study this box score closely, but I can make an early conclusion: Duke should always play against Duke. Getting rid of the opponent answers all of DBR's issues with player minutes.

Not so sure about that because if Obi took some of (insert other Duke player's name here) minutes, he'd likely lead the universe in rebounding this year, ending the discussion who Duke's best all-time rebounder was;).

Indoor66
10-18-2015, 06:32 AM
Not so sure about that because if Obi took some of (insert other Duke player's name here) minutes, he'd likely lead the universe in rebounding this year, ending the discussion who Duke's best all-time rebounder was;).

Only if he can get the PER (or usage or whatever the state of the day is) right. :mad::cool:

NashvilleDevil
10-18-2015, 06:40 AM
At last! Basketball-ish activity. Banner was cool, but most Duke students must be better at taking SATs then dancing etc. IMHO we should either get more professional with the "entertainment" or be all business with the scrimmage, dunking and similar.
What I saw, in a short scrimmage
Marshall, Amile took advantage of their experience, Marshall had some nice moments
Allen andJones played hard
Obi showed nice positioning skills on rebounding, but due to inexperience or lack of athleticism, it often availed him not.
These freshman are not last years freshmen.
Thornton struggled today. If he keeps that up he'll be on the bench and Allen/Jones will cover point.
Ingram is talented he could develop into something special with experience.
Kennard can score which will earn him PT, how much will depend on how other aspects of his game progress.
Jester did not look ready for prime time. Vrankovic was the slow big project as advertised.
Robinson, I think, was a pleasant surprise. Expectations are not so high for him, but I thought he looked comfortable out there.

You forgot to add that this was one of the first scrimmages of the season and any attempt to project what this year's team is going to be like is folly.

uh_no
10-18-2015, 08:15 AM
You forgot to add that this was one of the first scrimmages of the season and any attempt to project what this year's team is going to be like is folly.

Well. ..generally one of the second half teams has at least 3 of the starters on it.

rocketeli
10-18-2015, 08:17 AM
You forgot to add that this was one of the first scrimmages of the season and any attempt to project what this year's team is going to be like is folly.

very true. This team is nowhere near a finished product. It will be fascinating to watch how they develop this year.

Furniture
10-18-2015, 08:43 AM
Nobody has mentioned any visiting recruits.

SCMatt33
10-18-2015, 09:16 AM
-- Kennard was pretty effective with 12 points on 5-10 shooting (just 2-7 on 3s). Nobody shot 3s particularly well.

You know how they say that guys shoot bad in domes because their sight lines get all screwed up. That's totally what happened last night. That darn 5th banner messed with everyone's shot. The Blue team, shooting at the existing Coach K banner, shot 4-13 on the night, not good, but not horrible either, at about 30%. The White team, though, shooting at the championship banners in both halves, shot only 1-11, less than 10%. Maybe these guys just like even numbers or something. We'll just have to go get a 6th one if that's the case!

Indoor66
10-18-2015, 11:46 AM
You know how they say that guys shoot bad in domes because their sight lines get all screwed up. That's totally what happened last night. That darn 5th banner messed with everyone's shot. The Blue team, shooting at the existing Coach K banner, shot 4-13 on the night, not good, but not horrible either, at about 30%. The White team, though, shooting at the championship banners in both halves, shot only 1-11, less than 10%. Maybe these guys just like even numbers or something. We'll just have to go get a 6th one if that's the case!

Balance, we have to have balance in Banners!

Olympic Fan
10-18-2015, 12:06 PM
What would we obsess over if not player minutes?

I didn't see the scrimmage, but remember that Zoubek's freshman year, he dominated the Blue White game. A few folks suggested he might be one and done. Don't place too much weight on a single glorified practice.

Well, I did see the scrimmage back in October of 2006 and while Zoubek played well, he didn't come close to dominating the scrimmage. I don't remember ANYBODY talking about him as one and done.

In fact, we never talked about anybody being one-and-done in that era -- the two OADs we had to that point (Maggette and Deng) were both surprises. In October of 2006, the two freshmen we were talking about were Scheyer and Henderson. Also a lot of hype for Lance Thomas who didn't knock anybody's eyes out early.

The talk about Zoubek was how he didn't seem to fit Coach K's scheme -- he was big and lumbering ... we wondered if he could ever fit in K's up-and-down system (of course he couldn't ... it was only after K changed his system to fit Zoubek that the big guy achieved greatness).

PS I do agree with your main point -- don't put too much weight on a single glorified scrimmage

OldPhiKap
10-18-2015, 12:47 PM
Balance, we have to have balance in Banners!

More importantly, it has been over two decades since we won back to back. I am afraid K is slipping, but perhaps he can earn my trust back by getting it done this season.

Indoor66
10-18-2015, 01:10 PM
More importantly, it has been over two decades since we won back to back. I am afraid K is slipping, but perhaps he can earn my trust back by getting it done this season.

TWO DECADES since back-to-back! What's going on? Do we have to think about a new coach?

MChambers
10-18-2015, 01:12 PM
Well, I did see the scrimmage back in October of 2006 and while Zoubek played well, he didn't come close to dominating the scrimmage. I don't remember ANYBODY talking about him as one and done.

In fact, we never talked about anybody being one-and-done in that era -- the two OADs we had to that point (Maggette and Deng) were both surprises. In October of 2006, the two freshmen we were talking about were Scheyer and Henderson. Also a lot of hype for Lance Thomas who didn't knock anybody's eyes out early.

The talk about Zoubek was how he didn't seem to fit Coach K's scheme -- he was big and lumbering ... we wondered if he could ever fit in K's up-and-down system (of course he couldn't ... it was only after K changed his system to fit Zoubek that the big guy achieved greatness).

PS I do agree with your main point -- don't put too much weight on a single glorified scrimmage

I have no idea where posts from 2006 are stored, but the DBR headline was "Zoubek Erupts in Blue-White Scrimmage!"

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2006/10/29/4991004/zoubek-erupts-in-blue-white-scrimmage

jipops
10-18-2015, 04:14 PM
Just a few interesting things in the final stats:

-- Thornton did lead everybody with six assists ... although he also had seven turnovers
-- Grayson didn't shoot well (4-12/0-4 on 3s), but he was the leading scorer in the two halves with 13 and he did have 5 assists and no turnovers
-- Obi didn't do much, but he did have seven rebounds in 12 minutes of action. That's a pretty amazing rebound rate
-- Jeter had 9 rebounds (and 11 points) in 23 minutes, MP3 had 10 points and nine rebounds in 24 minutes.
-- Kennard was pretty effective with 12 points on 5-10 shooting (just 2-7 on 3s). Nobody shot 3s particularly well.
-- Tough night for Ingram ... actually he had a pretty good first half (9 pts on 4-8 shooting and 1-3 3s) but was helpless in the second half (0-5 shooting; 0-2 3s)
-- Overall, the veterans are clearly ahead of the freshmen ... I'm sure that gap will close quickly.

Overall, I don't want to read too much into one scrimmage, but I suspect we won't hit the ground running quite as fast as we did to open last season. But I still think we'll get there.

I didn't see any of the craziness, but my understanding is that Thornton was matched up against Matt Jones. Is this correct? If so, I wouldn't read much into those 7 turnovers at all. Jones' level of defense was nothing short of
amazing in the Final Four so I would expect him to give a freshman fits in a scrimmage. Now I'm also NOT expecting Thornton to have unreal Tyus Jones-type poise. But it does sound like this kid has some nice potential.

fuse
10-18-2015, 04:25 PM
I liked what I saw from Marshall- hope we see that all season.

Amile as point forward? Loved seeing him bringing it upcourt with confidence.

Nothing negative to say- fun practice environment.

FireOgilvie
10-18-2015, 04:47 PM
I didn't see any of the craziness, but my understanding is that Thornton was matched up against Matt Jones. Is this correct? If so, I wouldn't read much into those 7 turnovers at all. Jones' level of defense was nothing short of
amazing in the Final Four so I would expect him to give a freshman fits in a scrimmage. Now I'm also NOT expecting Thornton to have unreal Tyus Jones-type poise. But it does sound like this kid has some nice potential.

No, Thornton and Matt were on the same team for 5 of the 7 turnovers.

It's important to keep the only true PG on the team motivated, particularly when that player is an early-entry freshman that needs to put in a ton of extra work.

Bob Green
10-18-2015, 05:07 PM
I liked what I saw from Marshall- hope we see that all season.

I'll take "Hope I'm Wrong" for 1000, Alex.

A: Marshall Plumlee
Q: Duke senior who will not average 15 minutes per game in 2015/16.

Neals384
10-18-2015, 10:09 PM
I'll take "Hope I'm Wrong" for 1000, Alex.

A: Marshall Plumlee
Q: Duke senior who will not average 15 minutes per game in 2015/16.

Gnnnnnt. I'm sorry Bob, you must phrase your response AS A QUESTION. You lose 1000 and may not play final Jeopardy.

Kedsy
10-18-2015, 10:50 PM
Is it possible we're getting too focused on turnovers in an early scrimmage? I didn't see the scrimmage, but from what I can gather from the combined box score, Chase Jeter led the team in rebounds (9) and almost double-doubled, shooting 60% from the field and 5 for 5 from the free throw line. Yet the few people who have commented about him said he wasn't very good. Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive). Now, I grant you Chase and Derryck combined to turn the ball over 11 times, but in an early scrimmage, and their first appearance playing for Duke at Cameron, is that really so surprising? Are the turnovers the main reason people are down on them? What am I missing?

Indoor66
10-19-2015, 07:45 AM
Is it possible we're getting too focused on turnovers in an early scrimmage? I didn't see the scrimmage, but from what I can gather from the combined box score, Chase Jeter led the team in rebounds (9) and almost double-doubled, shooting 60% from the field and 5 for 5 from the free throw line. Yet the few people who have commented about him said he wasn't very good. Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive). Now, I grant you Chase and Derryck combined to turn the ball over 11 times, but in an early scrimmage, and their first appearance playing for Duke at Cameron, is that really so surprising? Are the turnovers the main reason people are down on them? What am I missing?

Maybe the fact that the goodness and badness of the world does not aways quantify?

flyingdutchdevil
10-19-2015, 08:44 AM
Is it possible we're getting too focused on turnovers in an early scrimmage? I didn't see the scrimmage, but from what I can gather from the combined box score, Chase Jeter led the team in rebounds (9) and almost double-doubled, shooting 60% from the field and 5 for 5 from the free throw line. Yet the few people who have commented about him said he wasn't very good. Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive). Now, I grant you Chase and Derryck combined to turn the ball over 11 times, but in an early scrimmage, and their first appearance playing for Duke at Cameron, is that really so surprising? Are the turnovers the main reason people are down on them? What am I missing?

I think the vast majority of posters know to not take much from CTC. But the following factors are leading to many of these posts:

1) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

2) There are so many question marks about our offense this year because we have a lot of freshman and we know these aren't as polished as Tyus-Jah-Justise.

3) DBR is a critical bunch (and rightly so. I'd rather be part of a community that is critical than overly optimistic).

4) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

ricks68
10-19-2015, 08:47 AM
I think the vast majority of posters know to not take much from CTC. But the following factors are leading to many of these posts:

1) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

2) There are so many question marks about our offense this year because we have a lot of freshman and we know these aren't as polished as Tyus-Jah-Justise.

3) DBR is a critical bunch (and rightly so. I'd rather be part of a community that is critical than overly optimistic).

4) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

Word.☺

ricks

COYS
10-19-2015, 10:22 AM
Is it possible we're getting too focused on turnovers in an early scrimmage? I didn't see the scrimmage, but from what I can gather from the combined box score, Chase Jeter led the team in rebounds (9) and almost double-doubled, shooting 60% from the field and 5 for 5 from the free throw line. Yet the few people who have commented about him said he wasn't very good. Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive). Now, I grant you Chase and Derryck combined to turn the ball over 11 times, but in an early scrimmage, and their first appearance playing for Duke at Cameron, is that really so surprising? Are the turnovers the main reason people are down on them? What am I missing?

I agree with this analysis. I'm surprised that many have suddenly decided Derryck will come off the bench. This team has a lot of wing talent, but each player appears to bring a different skill set to the table. If Derryck's defense is as good as reported and this team's calling card is going to be defense, I just don't see how he sits as he is the guy who (based on reputation) will provide some of the best ball pressure against opposing PGs we've seen in a few years. None of our other players can replicate that. If Derryck isn't quite ready offensively, we can run motion, set up screens, and even set up isolations for Grayson and Brandon so that Derryck doesn't have to shoulder the burden of being the primary playmaker. But I don't think we can say that he won't be ready to create on offense yet, either.

Kedsy
10-19-2015, 10:24 AM
Maybe the fact that the goodness and badness of the world does not aways quantify?

Maybe not in the world, but in basketball it usually does (though I agree not always), as long as you use the proper quantifying tools.

Indoor66
10-19-2015, 10:37 AM
I think the vast majority of posters know to not take much from CTC. But the following factors are leading to many of these posts:

1) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

2) There are so many question marks about our offense this year because we have a lot of freshman and we know these aren't as polished as Tyus-Jah-Justise.

3) DBR is a critical bunch (and rightly so. I'd rather be part of a community that is critical than overly optimistic).

4) It's been 6 months since our last Duke game. It's been too long and basketball is finally here.

You got that right, FDD. The insanity factor around here is reaching crisis level. If there are not games soon, I fear for all of the wives (or husbands) and children.

Indoor66
10-19-2015, 10:38 AM
Maybe not in the world, but in basketball it usually does (though I agree not always), as long as you use the proper quantifying tools.

That response was predictable. :D:cool:

jimsumner
10-19-2015, 10:38 AM
No, Thornton and Matt were on the same team for 5 of the 7 turnovers.

It's important to keep the only true PG on the team motivated, particularly when that player is an early-entry freshman that needs to put in a ton of extra work.

Jones is so good defensively that he shut down Allen on the other team and Thornton on his team at the same time.

dukelifer
10-19-2015, 10:40 AM
Is it possible we're getting too focused on turnovers in an early scrimmage? I didn't see the scrimmage, but from what I can gather from the combined box score, Chase Jeter led the team in rebounds (9) and almost double-doubled, shooting 60% from the field and 5 for 5 from the free throw line. Yet the few people who have commented about him said he wasn't very good. Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive). Now, I grant you Chase and Derryck combined to turn the ball over 11 times, but in an early scrimmage, and their first appearance playing for Duke at Cameron, is that really so surprising? Are the turnovers the main reason people are down on them? What am I missing?

I was actually pleasantly surprised by Chase's free throw shooting- he has a very nice stroke. Derryck was fine- just did not show the command one usually wants from a point guard. He will be like most Freshman not named Tyus Jones or Tommy Amaker- a bit of an adventure. He will have good moments and bad and the big question is how he will handle adversity in a game and from an up and down season. The kid is very quick and has a decent mid range game- but clearly has a ton to learn about running the show.

Kedsy
10-19-2015, 10:53 AM
He [Derryck] will have good moments and bad and the big question is how he will handle adversity in a game and from an up and down season. The kid is very quick and has a decent mid range game- but clearly has a ton to learn about running the show.

Like Bobby Hurley in 1989-90?

Edouble
10-19-2015, 12:44 PM
Like Bobby Hurley in 1989-90?

Yeah, dukelifer's comments made me think of Jason Williams. I recall being very underwhelmed by his performance in the CTC/Blue-White scrimmage. IIRC, Andre Buckner hounded him into some TOs and poor passes.

First game in MSG, Jdub was 3-15 with 3 assists and 6 turnovers, albeit 10 rebounds. I was honestly pretty worried about his talent level at that point, although I have a lot of faith in Coach K and I was pretty sure we'd be OK.

dukelifer
10-19-2015, 03:31 PM
Like Bobby Hurley in 1989-90?

Yes- Bobby made a ton of mistakes but learned pretty fast. All these kids have talent and in a few years from now - they will be excellent - but none jump of the page at this stage as one-and-done- even Ingram. It will be fun to watch them develop. The games may be ugly- but the D could be decent- and I expect Grayson Allen will be driving a lot at the end of games - hoping to get fouled.

BD80
10-19-2015, 07:32 PM
Yes- Bobby made a ton of mistakes but learned pretty fast. All these kids have talent and in a few years from now - they will be excellent - but none jump of the page at this stage as one-and-done- even Ingram. It will be fun to watch them develop. The games may be ugly- but the D could be decent- and I expect Grayson Allen will be driving a lot at the end of games - hoping to get fouled.

You meant to say ... "get the 'and one' "

UrinalCake
10-19-2015, 09:00 PM
Derryck Thornton led the team in assists (6) had a higher shooting percentage (42.9%) than any of Matt Jones (14.3%), Grayson Allen (33.3%), or Luke Kennard (38.5%) and yet the comments about Derryck have also been largely negative (while the comments about Matt, Grayson, and Luke have been largely positive).

I think you had to watch it to understand what people are talking about. Luke just seemed more comfortable and poised - a combination of body language and aggressiveness. Derryck looked flustered and it seemed to compound as the game went on. Some freshmen come in and just look like they fit right in - Scheyer and Dunleavy come to mind. Others you watch and feel that that they'll need some time to adjust.

Now with that said, I am totally of the opinion that it is far too early to draw any conclusions. Remember that Derryck missed most of the summer while he finished his high school coursework, while the other freshmen were here on campus starting around May. These mentions of Kennard starting at point over Derryck are pretty insane IMO.

tux
10-19-2015, 10:23 PM
You got that right, FDD. The insanity factor around here is reaching crisis level. If there are not games soon, I fear for all of the wives (or husbands) and children.

That's funny. But I've never gotten the feeling that the angst decreases once the games start.

elvis14
10-19-2015, 10:34 PM
I think you had to watch it to understand what people are talking about. Luke just seemed more comfortable and poised - a combination of body language and aggressiveness. Derryck looked flustered and it seemed to compound as the game went on. Some freshmen come in and just look like they fit right in - Scheyer and Dunleavy come to mind. Others you watch and feel that that they'll need some time to adjust.

Now with that said, I am totally of the opinion that it is far too early to draw any conclusions. Remember that Derryck missed most of the summer while he finished his high school coursework, while the other freshmen were here on campus starting around May. These mentions of Kennard starting at point over Derryck are pretty insane IMO.

Just because Derryck didn't look very good at CTC (and he really didn't) doesn't mean that will not be great and doesn't mean that he will not start. All it means is that right now (weeks before a game) he didn't play very well in Cameron. Frankly, I'm surprised his stats played out so well. A few other thoughts:


Matt played good defense
We really didn't shoot the 3 very well (I haven't looked at the stats but they couldn't have been good)
Obi rebounded well but didn't really know what to do with the ball once he got it
G.Allen was aggressive. It's going to be fun to see what he can do starting the season full of confidence (and playing time)
It was fun watching Allen battle Jones
Ingram wasn't dominant and he could have chosen better shots but every now and then he just does something that on one else on the court can do. He's going to be fun to watch this year
Marshall and Amile looked comfortable and confident on both ends of the court
Vrank looked better than I expected and he's huge
Luke played pretty well and looked comfortable


CTC was fun. Some of what I saw on the court I hope to see more of and some of what I saw I hope we grow out of. We can observe that some players were not so good and others were great without projecting that to the entire season.